Dungeoncrasher help please... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dungeoncrasher help please...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
noheat
Feb 21, 2009 11:01:44 Hi all!!!

I have a dungeoncrasher in a current campaign and last night there was some questions on which direction I can push an opponent on a bullrush. Now we all agreed that on a successful bullrush I would push an opponent "straight" back, the question that came up was what is straight back when the creature is, as in this case huge. Below is a rough diagram of the setup of the fight. X's obviously the creature and the lil' o is me.

______________
XXX
XXX
oXXX

Would I be able to push this creature into the wall from this setup?

Thanks for any and all input....
#2
vangrue
Feb 21, 2009 11:11:54 First of all, when you've got a short question like this, please put it in the "Ask a Simple question, get a simple answer" thread.

Second, if you're medium size, you can only bullrush enemies who are smaller than you, the same size, or one size larger. In this case, a "Huge" creature is two sizes larger than you, so you can't bullrush it.

Third, in the case of bullrushing a creature that is within size, say a you against a large creature, or if the wizard casts enlarge person on you, I believe that as long as you crash into one of its squares, you can push it straight back, and you would in fact get it into the wall. In other words, you don't have to hit the center square in order to hit it. Remember, larger enemies are also easier to hit. Think of the huge creature as having a square around those X's. The edge of the square along the wall shows you what straight back would be defined as.
#3
keithio
Feb 21, 2009 11:16:06 Well it would depend what direction you were coming from. Extend a line from where you started the charge to where you ended it, and that direction is "straight back".
#4
noheat
Feb 21, 2009 11:38:14
First of all, when you've got a short question like this, please put it in the "Ask a Simple question, get a simple answer" thread.

Sorry, will do next time. I'm a long time lurker that hasn't posted much. Actually have skimmed that thread in the past and didn't even think of posting there.

Second, if you're medium size, you can only bullrush enemies who are smaller than you, the same size, or one size larger. In this case, a "Huge" creature is two sizes larger than you, so you can't bullrush it.

Yeah, I understand the size issue, but I have the powerful build feature and DM has agreed that I can bullrush huge creatures.

Third, in the case of bullrushing a creature that is within size, say a you against a large creature, or if the wizard casts enlarge person on you, I believe that as long as you crash into one of its squares, you can push it straight back, and you would in fact get it into the wall. In other words, you don't have to hit the center square in order to hit it. Remember, larger enemies are also easier to hit. Think of the huge creature as having a square around those X's. The edge of the square along the wall shows you what straight back would be defined as.

This is exactly what I thought, but the DM does not agree. I'm trying to figure out the best way of explaining my point and as of yet have failed. I just wanted to get some other opinions and ideas so I can try to have one more quick discussion with him before game time. Heck, my whole build is basically about trying to smash things into walls and to be honest it's sometimes hard enough to pull off. When I finally think I get something in position its disheartening to here the DM say it doesn't work... Oh well what can ya do, still love the game.
#5
noheat
Feb 21, 2009 11:45:57
Well it would depend what direction you were coming from. Extend a line from where you started the charge to where you ended it, and that direction is "straight back".

I actually did not charge the creature, I just initiated the bullrush from where my 'o' is. What I was trying to explain to the DM at the time is that I wanted to attack/occupy the square above and to the right of where I stood which would draw a straight diagonal line into the wall... For some reason he still didn't like/understand my point.
#6
keithio
Feb 21, 2009 12:43:56 Well in that case I would say that:

_000
_100
Y200

(You are the "Y")

You could choose to bullrush the monster at square 2, which would push him horizontally, or you could bullrush him in square 1, which is a diagonal so it would shove him against the wall. It would be your choice, depending on where you landed the bullrush.
#7
noheat
Feb 21, 2009 12:49:08
Well in that case I would say that:

_000
_100
Y200

(You are the "Y")

You could choose to bullrush the monster at square 2, which would push him horizontally, or you could bullrush him in square 1, which is a diagonal so it would shove him against the wall. It would be your choice, depending on where you landed the bullrush.

That's exactly how I saw it... In the DMs defense during the game to keep it flowing he let me do it, but after the game we discussed it and he said that he wouldn't allow it anymore. I'm going to try to make my point one more time before next game and hopefully change his mind.
#8
noheat
Feb 23, 2009 18:38:25 So just one more question. If the above is true and I bullrushed square 1 and it's agreed that I move the opponent back in a diagonal line, what happens if I'm in here and bullrush square 1 or 3 of the creature?

__1XX
_Y2XX
__3XX

Is there not enough creature in that one square to actually push it diagonal or does it matter since I'm initiating the bullrush in square 1 or 3 that a straight line from where I start to the attacked spot is still diagonal? Or does any of this make sense at all?
#9
gilfalas_elaandrin
Feb 27, 2009 14:42:25
So just one more question. If the above is true and I bullrushed square 1 and it's agreed that I move the opponent back in a diagonal line, what happens if I'm in here and bullrush square 1 or 3 of the creature?

__1XX
_Y2XX
__3XX

Is there not enough creature in that one square to actually push it diagonal or does it matter since I'm initiating the bullrush in square 1 or 3 that a straight line from where I start to the attacked spot is still diagonal? Or does any of this make sense at all?

Contact with the creature and succesful bull rush check is all that is needed to bull rush it. A straight line from your starting square through your target square indicates the direction the enemy is pushed by the bull rush.

It is not a matter of 'is there enough creature in that square the creature is in that square, you can legally target it and you make a successful BR check, the creture is pushed back and you take that square. That is how bull rush works. Large sized and larger creatures are usually tough but they also present easier targetig situations since any square they occupy is legal to target and affect. A good example is ranged combat.

Now as always a GM is able to rule how he wants but if he is going to change the bull rush rules he needs to be clear how he is altering them so you can know how to play.

But yes, you ARE correct.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 noheat Feb 21, 2009 11:01:44	Hi all!!! I have a dungeoncrasher in a current campaign and last night there was some questions on which direction I can push an opponent on a bullrush. Now we all agreed that on a successful bullrush I would push an opponent "straight" back, the question that came up was what is straight back when the creature is, as in this case huge. Below is a rough diagram of the setup of the fight. X's obviously the creature and the lil' o is me. ______________ XXX XXX oXXX Would I be able to push this creature into the wall from this setup? Thanks for any and all input....
#2 vangrue Feb 21, 2009 11:11:54	First of all, when you've got a short question like this, please put it in the "Ask a Simple question, get a simple answer" thread. Second, if you're medium size, you can only bullrush enemies who are smaller than you, the same size, or one size larger. In this case, a "Huge" creature is two sizes larger than you, so you can't bullrush it. Third, in the case of bullrushing a creature that is within size, say a you against a large creature, or if the wizard casts enlarge person on you, I believe that as long as you crash into one of its squares, you can push it straight back, and you would in fact get it into the wall. In other words, you don't have to hit the center square in order to hit it. Remember, larger enemies are also easier to hit. Think of the huge creature as having a square around those X's. The edge of the square along the wall shows you what straight back would be defined as.
#3 keithio Feb 21, 2009 11:16:06	Well it would depend what direction you were coming from. Extend a line from where you started the charge to where you ended it, and that direction is "straight back".
#4 noheat Feb 21, 2009 11:38:14	First of all, when you've got a short question like this, please put it in the "Ask a Simple question, get a simple answer" thread. Sorry, will do next time. I'm a long time lurker that hasn't posted much. Actually have skimmed that thread in the past and didn't even think of posting there. Second, if you're medium size, you can only bullrush enemies who are smaller than you, the same size, or one size larger. In this case, a "Huge" creature is two sizes larger than you, so you can't bullrush it. Yeah, I understand the size issue, but I have the powerful build feature and DM has agreed that I can bullrush huge creatures. Third, in the case of bullrushing a creature that is within size, say a you against a large creature, or if the wizard casts enlarge person on you, I believe that as long as you crash into one of its squares, you can push it straight back, and you would in fact get it into the wall. In other words, you don't have to hit the center square in order to hit it. Remember, larger enemies are also easier to hit. Think of the huge creature as having a square around those X's. The edge of the square along the wall shows you what straight back would be defined as. This is exactly what I thought, but the DM does not agree. I'm trying to figure out the best way of explaining my point and as of yet have failed. I just wanted to get some other opinions and ideas so I can try to have one more quick discussion with him before game time. Heck, my whole build is basically about trying to smash things into walls and to be honest it's sometimes hard enough to pull off. When I finally think I get something in position its disheartening to here the DM say it doesn't work... Oh well what can ya do, still love the game.
#5 noheat Feb 21, 2009 11:45:57	Well it would depend what direction you were coming from. Extend a line from where you started the charge to where you ended it, and that direction is "straight back". I actually did not charge the creature, I just initiated the bullrush from where my 'o' is. What I was trying to explain to the DM at the time is that I wanted to attack/occupy the square above and to the right of where I stood which would draw a straight diagonal line into the wall... For some reason he still didn't like/understand my point.
#6 keithio Feb 21, 2009 12:43:56	Well in that case I would say that: _000 _100 Y200 (You are the "Y") You could choose to bullrush the monster at square 2, which would push him horizontally, or you could bullrush him in square 1, which is a diagonal so it would shove him against the wall. It would be your choice, depending on where you landed the bullrush.
#7 noheat Feb 21, 2009 12:49:08	Well in that case I would say that: _000 _100 Y200 (You are the "Y") You could choose to bullrush the monster at square 2, which would push him horizontally, or you could bullrush him in square 1, which is a diagonal so it would shove him against the wall. It would be your choice, depending on where you landed the bullrush. That's exactly how I saw it... In the DMs defense during the game to keep it flowing he let me do it, but after the game we discussed it and he said that he wouldn't allow it anymore. I'm going to try to make my point one more time before next game and hopefully change his mind.
#8 noheat Feb 23, 2009 18:38:25	So just one more question. If the above is true and I bullrushed square 1 and it's agreed that I move the opponent back in a diagonal line, what happens if I'm in here and bullrush square 1 or 3 of the creature? __1XX _Y2XX __3XX Is there not enough creature in that one square to actually push it diagonal or does it matter since I'm initiating the bullrush in square 1 or 3 that a straight line from where I start to the attacked spot is still diagonal? Or does any of this make sense at all?
#9 gilfalas_elaandrin Feb 27, 2009 14:42:25	So just one more question. If the above is true and I bullrushed square 1 and it's agreed that I move the opponent back in a diagonal line, what happens if I'm in here and bullrush square 1 or 3 of the creature? __1XX _Y2XX __3XX Is there not enough creature in that one square to actually push it diagonal or does it matter since I'm initiating the bullrush in square 1 or 3 that a straight line from where I start to the attacked spot is still diagonal? Or does any of this make sense at all? Contact with the creature and succesful bull rush check is all that is needed to bull rush it. A straight line from your starting square through your target square indicates the direction the enemy is pushed by the bull rush. It is not a matter of 'is there enough creature in that square the creature is in that square, you can legally target it and you make a successful BR check, the creture is pushed back and you take that square. That is how bull rush works. Large sized and larger creatures are usually tough but they also present easier targetig situations since any square they occupy is legal to target and affect. A good example is ranged combat. Now as always a GM is able to rule how he wants but if he is going to change the bull rush rules he needs to be clear how he is altering them so you can know how to play. But yes, you ARE correct.