Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dungeongeek17 Jun 25, 2009 21:24:24	DungeonGeek17 calls out Khan the Destroyer!!! First of all, I must reassure some readers : I’m not going to critic Khan personally. I think that he’s a great guy. I also enjoy read his comments. The first time one of my friends made me read the Pun-Pun comment, I was astonished! I said to myself : This is too great to be real!!! But, unfortunately, it was, in fact, too great to be possible. I, DungeonGeek17, after many verifications and inspections, found a few flaws in the making of this amazing kobold that is Pun-Pun. I’m here to point out these flaws step by step, using D&D books. Fortunately, as a DungeonGeek, I also tried and suceeded to correct these flaws. I want to say before I start : I didn’t read all the responses to the topic about Pun-Pun, so I absolutely don’t know if some of the flaws I will point here already were presented and corrected. So, excuse me if I repeat what others must have said before me. Lets follow each steps of the making of Pun-Pun (I took the 1rst level Wizard version, to be simple). - He makes a DC 25 Knowledge (the Planes) check to know the power of Pazuzu. He calls his name three times and asks him to give him a candle of invocation. An other version supposes that he could use a Ring of Three Wishes, and it works fine too. - With the candle, he summons an efreet, and asks him three wishes : have a viper as a familiar (if he wasn’t a wizard/sorcerer), become a Scaled One of Toril (if he wasn’t a kobold) and have an other Candle of Invocation. - With the second Candle of Invocation, he summons the Sarruhk and asks him to grant him the Manipulate Form ability. He grants it to his viper familiar, and they start to exchange Extraordinary, Supernatural and Spell-like abilities. Now that’s where it gets harder. I will skip to explain only the parts that I disagree. To increase his other scores, Pun-Pun needs two abilities. The first one is the Bellflower Tattoo of the Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior). This ability allows Pun-Pun to add his charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any one of his ability scores. The second ability is the Void Release ability of the Void Disciple (Complete Divine). This will allow Pun-Pun to use his highest ability score modifier in place of a lower one. Khan quoted: "Pun-Pun uses his Bellflower Tattoo to add his charisma score as an enhancement bonus to dexterity. But instead of adding his charisma bonus, he uses Void Release to add his strength bonus. His strength bonus is +10,000. So, Pun-Pun's dexterity score is now 10,000. He then uses Manipulate Form to increase his familiar's dexterity up to 10,000 as well (remember, he isn't giving his familiar a bonus to dexterity, he is literally changing his familiar's base dexterity score to match his own). Pun-Pun then dismisses the Bellflower effect, and his dexterity goes back down to normal. The viper then uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's dexterity score up to 10,000. This time, it isn't an enhancement bonus, the familiar is using Manipulate Form to permanently change Pun-Pun's dexterity score to 10,000." As you said, the Bellflower Tatoo gives an enhancment bonus to his ability scores, and, honestly, I don't think the enhancement bonuses are counted in the Manipulate Form ability. If they were, you could simply use a spell like Fox's Cunning, wich gives too an enhancement bonus, and then grant your familiar with your new ability score, wait for the spell to stop, and makes your familiar giving you the new ability score. Fortunately, we can correct it by the class ability of a prestige class from Savage Species which gives a Charisma bonus. With Manipulate Form, you can rise your Charisma score to near infinite. For the Dexterity, you just need the inversed spell of Giant Size, which gave a size bonus in Dexterity. And, if I can find an extraordinary ability that can rise the Charisma ability score, I assume that there are extraordinary abilities that rises the Wisdom and Intelligence ability scores as well. Khan the Destroyer quotes: "- An arbitrary amount of Fast Healing by gaining the Epic feat Fast Healing (Epic Level Handbook) a large number of times." That point is not really important, but it's more a question than a critic: don't Pun-pun needs to be at least level 21 to be able to get Epic feats? That question apllies also for Epic spells, so I will not point each time you mention an epic spell or an epic feat. It's just that the Chameleon ability grant you the ability to have a bonus feat, but you need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. The last thing about Pun-pun's creation that I must adress his about the Ice Assassin spell, used to copy a god, to access to a divine state. Check the description of the spell: "Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp. XP Cost: 5,000." For the material component, this is not difficult, but the XP cost is. I know, Pun-pun can acquire these XP easily, but we have to remember the role of the creation of Pun-pun : to create the most powerful character at the lowest level. If he gains those XP by defeating monsters, he will gain some levels. When we know that a XP cost don't have to cause a level loss, Pun-pun should be at least at level 6 to have the XP needed. To resolve this problem, I will use the Artificer class, with his XP pool. I know that this pool is used only to craft magic items, but we can imagine an other class feature that grant an XP pool for spells with this. That's all that I have to say. I hope I wasn't too presomptuous to attack the greatest creation of Khan the Destroyer. Khan, if you read this comment, please respond to it. I need to know your feelings about the problems I put on the table.
#2 emy Jun 25, 2009 21:31:03	Couldn't you have just posted this in the pun-pun thread? Additionally, I think he's moved on to 4e.
#3 dandu Jun 25, 2009 22:39:31	KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!
#4 dungeongeek17 Jun 25, 2009 22:54:54	Couldn't you have just posted this in the pun-pun thread? Yes, I'I admit, it would have been more appropriate.
#5 zaxter Jun 25, 2009 23:02:43	As you said, the Bellflower Tatoo gives an enhancment bonus to his ability scores, and, honestly, I don't think the enhancement bonuses are counted in the Manipulate Form ability. If they were, you could simply use a spell like Fox's Cunning, wich gives too an enhancement bonus, and then grant your familiar with your new ability score, wait for the spell to stop, and makes your familiar giving you the new ability score. That's some dangerous language around these parts. Personal interpretations are debatable -- highly debatable. Regardless of how you do interpret it, there are, of course, alternative ways for Pun-Pun to attain his ability scores. In fact, I think he just uses the omniscificer trick now to attain infinite ability scores -- no bonus types needed. That point is not really important, but it's more a question than a critic: don't Pun-pun needs to be at least level 21 to be able to get Epic feats? That question apllies also for Epic spells, so I will not point each time you mention an epic spell or an epic feat. It's just that the Chameleon ability grant you the ability to have a bonus feat, but you need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. He can increase his hit dice well beyond 20 with Manipulate Form, using the Energy Charge ability. With that many HD, he qualifies for epic feats. Also, it's not clear whether or not he even needs to meet the prerequisites -- Manipulate Form just gives him the abilities. The last thing about Pun-pun's creation that I must adress his about the Ice Assassin spell, used to copy a god, to access to a divine state. Check the description of the spell: Ice Assassin Casting Time: 8 hours Range: Touch These two factors will make the copying of gods difficult. Not impossible for Pun-pun, but quite difficult, even more with gods that have the Alter Reality power. There's also an other problem with this spell: Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp. XP Cost: 5,000. Pun-Pun grants himself a SLA version of Ice Assassin (possibly modified with Rapid Spell). Since SLAs have no components, he doesn't need the portion of the deity, the ice, the powdered diamond, or to pay the XP (maybe even taking care of the casting time). Hope that helped.
#6 risner Jun 25, 2009 23:06:20	PunPun is all about theoretical optimization by interpreting the rules in the most liberal (loose) way possible. I wouldn't expect to be able to provide evidence to disprove Pun-Pun. At best you will get people to admit that the interpretation used in an actual game would invalidate some (if not all) of Pun-Pun's power/abilities. Frankly, until the text of the Manipulate Form ability is modified, he will always exist as a possible interpretation of the rules.
#7 sofawall Jun 26, 2009 0:51:21	To increase his other scores, Pun-Pun needs two abilities. The first one is the Bellflower Tattoo of the Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior). This ability allows Pun-Pun to add his charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any one of his ability scores. The second ability is the Void Release ability of the Void Disciple (Complete Divine). This will allow Pun-Pun to use his highest ability score modifier in place of a lower one. Khan quoted: "Pun-Pun uses his Bellflower Tattoo to add his charisma score as an enhancement bonus to dexterity. But instead of adding his charisma bonus, he uses Void Release to add his strength bonus. His strength bonus is +10,000. So, Pun-Pun's dexterity score is now 10,000. He then uses Manipulate Form to increase his familiar's dexterity up to 10,000 as well (remember, he isn't giving his familiar a bonus to dexterity, he is literally changing his familiar's base dexterity score to match his own). Pun-Pun then dismisses the Bellflower effect, and his dexterity goes back down to normal. The viper then uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's dexterity score up to 10,000. This time, it isn't an enhancement bonus, the familiar is using Manipulate Form to permanently change Pun-Pun's dexterity score to 10,000." As you said, the Bellflower Tatoo gives an enhancment bonus to his ability scores, and, honestly, I don't think the enhancement bonuses are counted in the Manipulate Form ability. If they were, you could simply use a spell like Fox's Cunning, wich gives too an enhancement bonus, and then grant your familiar with your new ability score, wait for the spell to stop, and makes your familiar giving you the new ability score. Fortunately, we can correct it by the class ability of a prestige class from Savage Species which gives a Charisma bonus. With Manipulate Form, you can rise your Charisma score to near infinite. For the Dexterity, you just need the inversed spell of Giant Size, which gave a size bonus in Dexterity. And, if I can find an extraordinary ability that can rise the Charisma ability score, I assume that there are extraordinary abilities that rises the Wisdom and Intelligence ability scores as well. When something looks only at the base stat, it says so. See: Skill points. Also, as for Epic feats, is Pun-Pun Dragonwrought? If so, he can use Energy Charge a NI amount of times, giving him NI hit dice, and if he's at least Old age, he'll qualify for Epic feats, even without 21 class levels. The reason for this is a dragon (Not necessarily True Dragon, mind you, it does not specify) with at least age "Old" qualifies for epic feats. Some may say that just being old is enough, but to truly make it untouchable, get 21 HD. Then you qualify even closer to the perceived RAI. EDIT: You could in fact use Fox's Cunning, it'd just take a lot longer. And also, I'd forgotten how he got Ice Assassin. Good call, Zaxter.
#8 dr_rocktopus Jun 26, 2009 1:08:56	It is also provable that an Air Weird can divine the entire structure of the universe in about six seconds, along with all that the knowledge of such entails. As in, full omniscient knowledge of every farking thing. They exist as soon as the universe does. They start with access to Wish. They ascend to Pun-Pun-hood six seconds after the universe starts up. Pre-existence of a Pun-Pun-alike is perfectly provable.
#9 Wyvernhand Jun 26, 2009 2:01:54	Pun-Pun could also grant himself and his familar the ability to gain Con from getting hit by electricity such as a Shambling Mound does. Then he could electroshock himself a million times, get an arbitrarily large Con score, bestow that upon his familiar, and Void Release/BellflowerTattoo that over to his other scores. And yea, SLA Ice Assassin wouldn't work, since SLAs actually DO need their components paid for. HOWEVER, nothing stops Pun-Pun from granting himself SU Ice Assassin, which WOULD have 0 material component and 0 xp costs, as well as having a single standard action "casting" time. Really, Manipulate Form is silly. Its so obscenely vague that you can literally make **** up and just have it. Make an Ex ability called IWIN, in which case "Pun-Pun always wins every opposed roll, and gets an opposed roll to oppose any roll that doesn't allow an opposed roll. If Pun-Pun wins the opposed roll, whatever was being rolled for is completely negated. Also, Pun-Pun is protected from all [Death] and Polymorph effects, Negative Energy, and all damage (including ability damage and drain) delt to Pun-Pun from any source (including Starvation and Thirst) is reduced to 0" That way, any time anyone around him tries to roll ANYTHING, Pun-Pun always gets to roll against them and always wins and if something slips though that, well, he's immune to it. Stupid? Yes. Outside of the abilities of Manipulate Form? Nope.
#10 korwin Jun 26, 2009 2:34:56	And yea, SLA Ice Assassin wouldn't work, since SLAs actually DO need their components paid for. HOWEVER, nothing stops Pun-Pun from granting himself SU Ice Assassin, which WOULD have 0 material component and 0 xp costs, as well as having a single standard action "casting" time. Since when? Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
#11 Senevri Jun 26, 2009 3:31:48	PunPun is all about theoretical optimization by interpreting the rules in the most liberal (loose) way possible. Not really, most of the time, no. As Wyvernhand said, the liberal PP just takes the IWIN(ex) ability and is done with silly games. PP is usually the result of being a pedantic literalist considering what feats and abilities say they do. A simple DM decision on how Manipulate Form can be used severely limits PP (as in, it's meant for physiological changes, so the closest approximation of PP would probably be some sort of a colossal, tentacled eldritch horror thing.) Also, actual access to Sarrukh is somewhat liberal, considering it's a mostly extinct, forgotten species. An Omniscifier would know of it, naturally, though. Sofawall, you missed the obvious - PP is dragonwrought if it pleases him.
#12 sofawall Jun 26, 2009 4:47:15	Sofawall, you missed the obvious - PP is dragonwrought if it pleases him. Well, you have to take Dragonwrought at level 1 don't you? If he needs more feats at level 1, this could be a problem. Even retraining (including Dark Chaos shuffling) wouldn't work, would it? Of course, since that ability is so poorly written, he can just give himself Dragonwrought, but I prefer to stay within slightly less broken rules. But, honestly, once we get to Pun-Pun, who cares how broken he actually is?
#13 dungeongeek17 Jun 26, 2009 8:45:05	Well, you have to take Dragonwrought at level 1 don't you? If he needs more feats at level 1, this could be a problem. Yes, but there's the point : He's actually level 1. He could have taken this feat with the chameleon Bonus Feat ability before increasing his hit dices.
#14 dungeongeek17 Jun 26, 2009 8:47:56	Actually, ther's no need to continue this chat in this topic. I have all my questions answered, and the other ones that I will eventually have will be posted on the real Pun-pun topic.
#15 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 26, 2009 16:03:13	Khan and Pun-pun probably still have their (ex) ability: Reflect Call Outs still functioning ... ;) The OP of the Pun-pun thread, has the 10 step process, right before the Enchancement stuff you quoted. It also has a re-explanation later, in the FAQ section. It's a real Strength change. ** " ... I didn’t read all the responses to the topic about Pun-Pun ... " See, that's the problem. You really do have to read all of it.
#16 pyro_azer Jun 26, 2009 22:53:20	See, that's the problem. You really do have to read all of it. That in itself is a problem. What would be nice is for someone to get Khan's permission and write a succinct guide to pun-pun explaining how he gets power without feeling the need to link to other threads to do it or be vague.