Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oblivion523 Jan 28, 2010 6:44:10	Hey guys Im new here to the site, though ive been readin a few things here and there. Im not big on words so ill cut right to the chase. I was wondering if one of you could explain to me how to get Wraithstrike as a Duskblade spell. Is it only attainable through the extra spell.. "exploit"?
#2 phaedrusxy Jan 28, 2010 9:57:15	I think the Drake Helm (Explorers Handbook) and the Ring of Theurgy (CA) work for items, and you could also dip into Wyrm Wizard.
#3 aelryinth Jan 29, 2010 18:44:58	I'd be REAL careful about the road you are treading down.  Using that spell opens the door for the DM to use it on you...and being able to turn weapons into Brilliant Weapons is a PC killer far more then a monster killer.  You might not want to open that can of worms.  I know I'd happily use such a damnably effective spell against you...it would only be common sense! ==Aelryinth
#4 oblivion523 Jan 29, 2010 19:13:25	Mmm good call.. Maybe i wont bring that up in the "**** you want or dont want in the game" conversation haha
#5 Diffan Jan 30, 2010 3:26:04	Hey guys Im new here to the site, though ive been readin a few things here and there. Im not big on words so ill cut right to the chase. I was wondering if one of you could explain to me how to get Wraithstrike as a Duskblade spell. Is it only attainable through the extra spell.. "exploit"? If your thinking of using the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane, it won't work. That feat allows a Duskblade to choose an additional spell from it's own spell list and add it to spells known. Personally as a DM, i'd allow you to obtain any arcane spell that way because your wasting a feat for 1 spell. As for opening that can of worms, there are much more destructive spells out there than wraithstrike for your DM to be afraid of like Rune Bomb. But anyways, if the spell had a per day limit from a magical item, say 2 or 3 times per day, I don't think it'd be a problem.
#6 snakeman830 Jan 30, 2010 6:59:39	If your thinking of using the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane, it won't work. That feat allows a Duskblade to choose an additional spell from it's own spell list and add it to spells known. Personally as a DM, i'd allow you to obtain any arcane spell that way because your wasting a feat for 1 spell. RAW, that's what you can do.  The feat never mentions "from your class list".
#7 phaedrusxy Jan 30, 2010 8:41:20	As for opening that can of worms, there are much more destructive spells out there than wraithstrike for your DM to be afraid of like Rune Bomb. But anyways, if the spell had a per day limit from a magical item, say 2 or 3 times per day, I don't think it'd be a problem. What the crap is Rune Bomb? Are you talking about Explosive Runes? Wraithstrike is generally regarded to be one of the more broken spells for its level, because of how insane it can get with Power Attack multipliers.
#8 aelryinth Jan 30, 2010 15:38:55	Aye, Wraithblade totally negates Nat Armor, Armor and Shield bonuses.  This is a spell that actually gets more and more powerful as you fight more and more powerful beings. Consider: Against a CR 24 Dragon, it's +40 to hit. Against a level 20 Fighter, it's +25 to hit. Against a level1 warrior in Plate and shield, it's +10 to hit.  And for ALL attacks in a given round, not just one attack, like true strike. Now, I'd like you to picture the effect of the enemy barbarian running up to your Fighter with a Wraithblade granting him +25 to hit.  He's going to Power Attack for everything he can, adding +30-40 to every single attack, still have bonus left over, and likely cheesewhiz you in one round, regardless of your hit points. And if the spell exists, it should be used, by the enemy, and frequently.  Touch Attacks are horribly powerful assaults in the hands of someone with Power attack.  Just ask a Psychic Warrior with Psionic Weapon what he can do to people with touch attacks! ==Aelryinth
#9 phaedrusxy Jan 30, 2010 21:14:11	And if the spell exists, it should be used, by the enemy, and frequently.  Touch Attacks are horribly powerful assaults in the hands of someone with Power attack.  Just ask a Psychic Warrior with Psionic Weapon what he can do to people with touch attacks! ==Aelryinth Or a dragon. If I had PCs using that, I guarantee you that they'd run into a dragon with it, Power Attack, and Elusive Target. Then they'd wish they'd never heard of that spell. If it exists, every dragon should have it.
#10 aelryinth Jan 31, 2010 0:12:59	Mmmm, a campaign where if you don't have Elusive Target and Touch AC into the 40's, you're dead.  Interesting world! ==Aelryinth
#11 bruceleeroy Feb 01, 2010 13:54:55	Mmmm, a campaign where if you don't have Elusive Target and Touch AC into the 40's, you're dead.  Interesting world! ==Aelryinth There's always Diplomacy...
#12 Diffan Feb 05, 2010 3:22:17	As for opening that can of worms, there are much more destructive spells out there than wraithstrike for your DM to be afraid of like Rune Bomb. But anyways, if the spell had a per day limit from a magical item, say 2 or 3 times per day, I don't think it'd be a problem. What the crap is Rune Bomb? Are you talking about Explosive Runes? Wraithstrike is generally regarded to be one of the more broken spells for its level, because of how insane it can get with Power Attack multipliers. Ok, so wraithstrike is a little low in level for it's power, but we're talking about a wiz/sor using this spell, with it's pitiful BAB. And unless you make a build espically to cheese wraithstrike, then I don't really see a problem with it.  As to what a Rune Bomb is, yea a cheesed-out Explosive Rune spell. A rune bomb works like this: 1)- There is no limit to the amount of runes you can place on a piece of paper to create a rune bomb. Each casting of a explosive runes adds 6d6 damage.  2)- By using the spell Launch Item (cantrip), you can launch the piece of paper with x-amount of explosive runes on it at an enemy. As a DM, i'd still require a ranged touch attack to actually hit the target with the piece of paper. 3)-By using a quicken action (like the Duskblade's ability or Quicken Spell feat) you then use Amanuensis (cantrip) to remove the writing on the piece of paper and thus ignites the explosive runes. The creature may or may-not be granted a save depending on the DM. This is due to the fact that the creature isn't actually reading the piece of paper but if he's struck with it, then I'd say no reflex save. 4)- Roll the amount of damage for each explosive rune (4 explosive rune spells = 24d6)! Also, this is force damage, not fire damage so there's practically no resistance and it harms incorporeal/insubstantial creatures to boot. Enjoy!
#13 snakeman830 Feb 05, 2010 8:49:18	Ok, so wraithstrike is a little low in level for it's power, but we're talking about a wiz/sor using this spell, with it's pitiful BAB. And unless you make a build espically to cheese wraithstrike, then I don't really see a problem with it. Gish builds have been around longer than Wratihstrike.  Wraithstrike just made them rediculously more powerful.
#14 phaedrusxy Feb 05, 2010 11:38:44	Ok, so wraithstrike is a little low in level for it's power, but we're talking about a wiz/sor using this spell, with it's pitiful BAB. And unless you make a build espically to cheese wraithstrike, then I don't really see a problem with it. Gish builds have been around longer than Wratihstrike.  Wraithstrike just made them rediculously more powerful. Umm... yeah. The fighter/mage is one of the iconic character types going back all the way to pretty much the very beginnings of D&D. Wraithstrike added to any of those with Power Attack = insane. It's not like you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get that to work.
#15 Diffan Feb 05, 2010 13:42:50	I understand that, but I just don't see it as the most broken concept of 3.5. Yes, it is powerful and I'd probably mark up the spells level to like 4 or 5. This would also require the Duskblade in question to be at least level 13 before he could take that spell. And because he doesn't gain a feat til level 15, well there ya go. A 15th level character probably has access to the amount of Gold required to purchase a brilliant weapon.
#16 aelryinth Feb 05, 2010 18:06:09	A brilliant weapon is a +5 modifier to a weapon, and is LESS powerful then Wraithstrike. A brilliant weapon ignores ARMOR and SHIELD bonuses to AC...it does NOT make them touch attacks.  Furthermore, a Brilliant weapon is useless against undead (why?) and inanimate objects (you can't even bust open a door with it), including constructs. Brilliant weapons are PC killers.  Useless against most monsters (that get their AC from magic, Dex or Nat Armor), they are best used against creatures that rely on armor and shield bonuses.  Cue, the PC's. Wraithstrike is a full round touch attack effect.  Armor, Nat ARmor, Shields, all useless.  Especially nat Armor.  Making all your attacks touch attacks is probably a +8 Weapon Effect, similar to having a constant True Strike weapon (and arguably stronger, since many creatures at Epic levels have Nat AC over 20). Wraithstrike is a broken spell.  As a higher level of True Strike, it MIGHT be ok.  As it stands...just imagine a Charge Build NPC Frenzied Berserker with that cast on his Weapon of Doom.  Can you say, TPK in one charge attack? ===Aelryinth
#17 snakeman830 Feb 05, 2010 18:51:46	A brilliant weapon is a +5 modifier to a weapon, and is LESS powerful then Wraithstrike. Brilliant Weapon is +4, but everything else still holds true.
#18 phaedrusxy Feb 05, 2010 19:37:57	I understand that, but I just don't see it as the most broken concept of 3.5. Yes, it is powerful and I'd probably mark up the spells level to like 4 or 5. This would also require the Duskblade in question to be at least level 13 before he could take that spell. And because he doesn't gain a feat til level 15, well there ya go. A 15th level character probably has access to the amount of Gold required to purchase a brilliant weapon. So your argument is that "because I can house rule it to make it unbroken, then it isn't broken". Have you ever heard of the term "logical fallacy"? No one hear claimed it was "the most broken thing in 3.5". That's another logical fallacy, called a Straw Man, refuting arguments that no one ever even made to falsely "prove" your point.
#19 Diffan Feb 05, 2010 20:04:03	So your argument is that "because I can house rule it to make it unbroken, then it isn't broken". Have you ever heard of the term "logical fallacy"? Then its best just to throw the darn spell out. Yes, it is a very powerful spell. Yes, I agree that it is too powerful for a 2nd level spell. I'm not trying to argue that point. And yes, a house-rule is needed to make the spell "unbroken".
#20 empirate Feb 06, 2010 9:59:05	I'm not sure that Wraithstrike is all that bad. Only when you couple it with one of the few means to make it last longer than its original duration (1 round) does it really become a problem. So maybe just make sure no Incantatrices are around, eh? But still, you're acting as if a touch attack were an automatic game winner. If the enemy is susceptible to heavy melee damage of the kind you can deliver (no DR, no miss chance, you are able to full attack etc.), then Wraith Strike increases your damage by an OK amount. Say, you are in melee, you have two attacks and PA for +10, and both attacks still hit, then that's still only 40 points. That's good, but you still have to get into melee to do it, and it's not automatic, you still have to roll average attacks. Also, you're 12th level or so, so what's 40 points of bonus damage/round? You're the melee guy, you're expected to take down stuff in melee! With PA increasers (Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, etc.) and a pouncing charge attack, you might score more, much more in some cases. But it's still a trick you do once, and you've built your character to be able to do it, so why should anybody complain? A Charging Smite Paladin with Cha increasers, Divine Might and Rhino's Rush can do similar things. He's built for destroying things by charging, that's his schtick, and he better be good at it. Otherwise, what's the PC good for, anyway? We're talking optimization here, not de-optimization!
#21 snakeman830 Feb 06, 2010 11:51:38	I'm not sure that Wraithstrike is all that bad. Only when you couple it with one of the few means to make it last longer than its original duration (1 round) does it really become a problem. So maybe just make sure no Incantatrices are around, eh? It's easy to extend the duration.  Persistable without ANY metamagic reducers at level 15 where you can easily make it last 48 hours as well.  There are numerous effects that allow you to increase durations to long times long before that.  Heck, Arcane Thesis can net you a 48 hour Wraithstrike by level 13 Besides, Gishes have higher BAB (via Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, etc.) and so can Power Attack for more and attack more.  It's not uncommon to see them sink 15 points in for an extra 30 damage per hit (and have 5 attacks), pre multipliers.  Also, don't forget that Wratithstrike is just ONE of the numerous buffs a gish will have up.
#22 phaedrusxy Feb 06, 2010 13:56:38	Even if you don't extend it... it's still a freakin' 2nd level spell. At the upper levels, you have like a zillion of those and not much to do with them, anyway (especially if you're a Duskblade). Heck, it would even be affordable to buy a Ring of Wizardry and have even more of them. How many truly devestating full attacks do you need in a day? Not many usually...
#23 aelryinth Feb 07, 2010 0:05:37	And at tenth level, PA for 10 is +20 per attack with a Two Handed weapon.  Double it on a charge if valorous, now we're at +40 per attack...before any other modifiers. At level 20, now we're at +80! At higher levels, it basically means that every creature you charge becomes a one round kill. My argument against this spell has already been cited.  If a PC uses it, it goes on the list of every Dragon able to cast it.  If you want to eat a full attack from a DRagon with +30 damage on every attack or more, you go ahead and use this spell.  At least with True Strike, they only get ONE. ===Aelryinth
#24 empirate Feb 07, 2010 6:48:19	I still don't see the big problem. Is it the level? At 15th level, you don't care if you have to burn a 2nd or a 4th level slot to rule, you just do it. At 15th level, a Wizard casts Polymorph Any Object and basically does what he wants to the world. Even at 13th level, we're already talking super powerful PCs. A well-equipped and well prepared party can take down almost any threat in the Monster Manual at level 13. So what that one of their means for doing so is a measly 2nd level spell? When you first get Wraithstrike, your BAB will likely not allow you to get more than, say, 20 points of bonus damage out of the spell, except in a dedicated charging build. I'd expect any dedicated charger to take out anything they can charge. So now the opposition is down one opponent. Big deal. Wouldn't you expect the arcane caster to do similar things with each and every one of their actions? Or, to put it more bluntly: Why mustn't melee fighters get nice things?
#25 phaedrusxy Feb 07, 2010 11:22:03	Or, to put it more bluntly: Why mustn't melee fighters get nice things? It's not melee fighters that are using this. It is casters, who are using it to stomp all over the melee fighter's territory. With a 2nd level spell. THAT is the problem. If this were a fighter feat/ability, I actually wouldn't care as much. Of course, most other people would howl about how overpowered it was, then. Imagine if you made a feat that required you to sacrifice 1-2 points of BAB permanently, and required two otherwise useless prereq feats, but that then made all of your attacks touch attacks. Would you consider that feat overpowered? Would most people? That is DMM: Persistent Spell (applied to this spell) in a nutshell. Except of course DMM: Persistent is even better than that, because you can change what you actually apply it to every day, and use it to persist more than one overpowered effect. And yes, clerics can get this spell via the Spell domain. It's 3rd level for them, but they still don't care and will happily persist it. If the feat was limited to a certain number of full attacks per day (which scale with your level), but had no prereqs other than losing a point or two of BAB, would it still be overpowered? Some people would probably still say yes, and yet this spell is still better than that because it doesn't even take up a feat slot.
#26 empirate Feb 07, 2010 14:43:31	I really shouldn't continue this argument, which does nothing to help the OP's question, but it is interesting to consider. Allow me a last statement. You're certainly in the right in many ways, but I still hold to my opinion. 1) The comparison to a feat seems skewed to me. I don't quite get the comparison to a feat. Also, see below. 2) I explicitly said that Wraithstrike is OK as long as nobody persists it. If you DMM:Persist Wraithstrike, the cheese is less in the Wraithstrike and more in DMM plus that ridiculous Anyspell. 3) A gish is a melee fighter. You don't create a gish if you don't aim to be good at melee, first and foremost. You may be able to cast a lot of stuff, but given the choice, you hack'n'slash it. This is by no means an optimal choice. A full caster could just cast a high-level spell instead and rule that particular combat, but your standard gish has a melee mindset. So he liberally applies Wraithstrike to rule one melee instead of Time Stop, Gate and Genesis to rule the world. That a problem? 4) High-level characters have a habit of breaking the game any way they want to anyway. And at low levels, Wraithstrike is nice, but far from broken. More in the same vein) Really, consider when Wraithstrike begins to be a problem as argued by aelryinth and PhaedrusXY. Not before we're way into the middle levels. At those levels, there's all kinds of crap you could do (and will do, as an optimizer) to keep the upper hand. A simple, non-cheesed Wraithstrike spell is good. But it's a far shot from breaking the game. We have Planar Binding for that. And the simple economy-ruining Wall of Iron. Minor Creation (Black Lotus Poison). The Candle of Invocation. And Druids. I'm even only talking Core examples here, for Gygax's sake! A little (even a lot) extra damage doesn't even play in the same league as these. The one point I can understand really well is the "...stomping all over the melee fighter's territory" bit. I think we all will agree that casters>>>noncasters anyway, in D&D 3.5. This is a problem inherent to the system. So if you want to play a highly effective damage-dealer, you're basically obliged to either pigeonhole yourself massively (like in a dedicated charger build), or get onboard the caster bandwagon, at least a little (like in a well-built Duskblade, a Divine Power gish, or just a basic arcane gish). [But if you think about it, on the other hand, if you spend your feats on DMM and generally being a gish (prereqs like Combat Casting and such...), you're not spending those feats on tactical versatility. You can do 200 points of damage per attack, against a dedicated lockdown build you'd still lose, and lose badly. But this is an aside really.] Bottom line: I understand if you think Wraithstrike is out of whack with what a simple, noncaster melee fighter can do. But it is not even in the same league of what optimized casters do any day of the week. So go ahead, play a fighter type, but build it effectively so you can compete. In 3.5, that means you build a gish of sorts. Or, you know, a ToB class.