Our DM wanted to put together a "fun" campaign for us for when we have 2 or more of our players not able to make it to game night. We are working on theme based characters. I have decided to try and make a "Jedi Knight-esque" character for this.
I've been going over whats available and I can't decide what would be best for this. I've been bouncing between Duskblade or Sorcerer + Warblade into a Spellsword. I'm not sure which of these is better, and im sure I've probably missed something that could work better then what I've come up with.
The material I have to work with is :
Core, PHBII, "Complete" Series, Tome of Battle, and Dragon Magic.
NO PSIONICS
The only real thoughts i had on this was a melee fighter that could use some enchantment spells and flavor based offensive spells (Shacking grasp, Lightning bolt, true strike, ect), but this is always subject to change.
Give her a go and let me know community, much appreciated!=D
~bluuegg
Alternatives include the Sorcadin (Paladin/Sorcerer), Swashbuckler or Warblade/Wizard (Int synergy), or Duskblade. Any or all of those use Abjurant Champion, and Battle Sorcerer (found in the SRD) is often used instead of regular sorcerer, but isn't necessary.
What level are you aiming for? Also, don't get caught up on the Lightsaber bit - focus on the Force bits. A damn fine saber can come from a wand of Flame Blade (or Moon Blade, but it's hard to do that without Use Magic Device.)
Since you can't use Psi, then your best bet is to look at a Wizard gish that uses Transmutation and Enchantment to mimic force powers. Don't worry so much about Channel Spell.
The strongest Gish PRC is easily Abjurant Champion, it brings a couple really nice class features as well as full casting and full BAB. Whatever rout you go I'd try to bring that in if you're using Wizard or Sorc.
Jade Phoenix Mage works really well too but I recommend pick a set of 9ths (Spells or maneuvers) that you want, and let the other side of your build slide.
Finally as a "Jedi Knight" Master of the Unseen hand opens up a lot of fun and powerful TK options.
Shame about the no psionics bit. Ilthe psychic warrior *is* is Jedi class. Also, the wilder can make a damn fine attempt at the concept as well (see Xander in the Dead for Nothing link in my signature - DisposableHero doesn't play him as a Sith Lord, but his mechanics are totallg compatible.)
What level are you aiming for? Also, don't get caught up on the Lightsaber bit - focus on the Force bits. A damn fine saber can come from a wand of Flame Blade (or Moon Blade, but it's hard to do that without Use Magic Device.)
Wilder looks hella fun for sure, but this DM doesnt like psionics so, meh. We are starting level 4, and playing til epic or death. I dont mind a slow start if a certain combonation would cause one if its worth it. And oddly enough i wasnt even thinking of the light saber. it was mainly the force/mind powers and being able to flip around the battle field a bit =P.
Heh. I actually had a pally/rogue with max ranks in Perform (Weapon Drill).
Best Jedi? Bardzilla/JPM with Undersong persisted. Max ranks in Perform(Weapon Drill). There, you can now deflect lightning, mind control, and death, all with your sword.
that sounds good and all, except im not sure what "bardzilla" is....just a bard?
Bardzilla is one of the more fun Bard builds. It uses Talfirian Song and Metamagic Song to Persist the ever-loving hell out of the more amazing spells on the bard list. On a second look, though, you don't have Races of Stone, so it doesn't matter. You'll instead need a Ring of continuous Undersong to pull it off.
What race would it use from RoS? im looking into all options and i should be able to get the ring if needed.
thank you for the replys^^
In this case, what you're doing is persisting Undersong - which substitutes a Perform check for Concentration; observe that Perform (Weapon Drill) improves with your base attack bonus - and using Diamond Mind counters (so basically, every time you make a saving throw, you're actually deflecting the attempt with your weapon - which could easily be a wand of flame blade or some related effect, as bards do get UMD). If you've got room for Wall of Blades you can parry regular attacks as well; sadly you won't have a lot of space with JPM to pick up WoB's bigger brothers and actually reflect the attacks, but you probably won't need to.
Apart from that one trick, you're still playing a bard with Persistent Spell and Metamagic Song (CJ also references a 3e feat which is basically a cheaper version of Heighten + Metamagic Song) and grabbing some fun spells from the bard list to persist.
And, of course, without Metamagic Song, you won't be able to do this without really expensive custom gear.
Apart from that one trick, you're still playing a bard with Persistent Spell and Metamagic Song (CJ also references a 3e feat which is basically a cheaper version of Heighten + Metamagic Song) and grabbing some fun spells from the bard list to persist.
Actually, that's not the point. Talfirian Song is to get around the evel limit in Metamagic Song so you can persist spells up to 3. After that, you'll need Practical/Easy Metamagic or other reducers to hit fourth and fith level persisted spells, but that's not very difficult.
...I misread Metamagic Song! That makes a lot more sense now - you're using Talfirian to "effectively" cast 9th level spells at whatever level you have the feat and the bardsongs to spare, thus giving you enough play to reach 3rd level with Persist with when you're using Metamagic Song (instead of just being able to Persist cantrips).
Figures - they hard-limit Metamagic Song, showing they learned from the Divine Metamagic screwup, and then they do it in a way that a 3e feat busts wide open.
On the other hand, no Nightsticks.
Actually... a permissive reading on Vest of Legend and Masterwork Lute which should result in books being thrown at heads lets you persist as much as you want.
...I'm not seeing this. The Vest of Legends treats your bard level as 5 higher when determining the effects of Inspire Courage, Fascinate, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics. The Masterwork Lute treats your bard level as 1 higher than it actually is when determining the "power" of your bardic music effects. If you're arguing that these augment the spell level tweaks from Talifrian Song or Metamagic Song, I can't see how you're doing that with the vest, and the lute only alters bardic music effects (while neither of those feats are bardic music effects, any more than Divine Metamagic involves actually turning undead).
(1)Sorcerer/(5)Crusader/Abjurant Champ
Duskblade
Wizard/Warblade
Swordsage/Sorcerer
Bardzilla...thing X_X
Ill be honest the bard thing is looking too complex for me (or there is something im not getting, things seem to have gone a bit off track there in this thread), and the first option feels like its going to be very slow until i get to Abjurant. Im play testing a bit for a while then ill come back. thanks guys for all the help!
You're right on the Vest of Legends, I was misremembering the effect, but the Masterwork Lute does work. Reread the effect, it's far too open-ended and vague.
Still requires a reading so liberal that "feats that are fueled by Bardic Music" become "bardic music effects" (and by extension, things like Divine feats are actually Turn Undead, or Wild feats being Wild Shape, instead of merely alternative ways to spend daily uses of another ability.) Not entirely sure I'd buy that, as I'm sure we could break it even further than the bardzilla would suggest. Anything that monkeys with spell costs is something that needs to be kept on a really tight leash. Like, tight enough that it needs a safeword.
Im a bit bad optimization (Hence why i am here), but so far this is what im getting as my options;
(1)Sorcerer/(5)Crusader/Abjurant Champ
Duskblade
Wizard/Warblade
Swordsage/Sorcerer
Bardzilla...thing X_X
Ill be honest the bard thing is looking too complex for me (or there is something im not getting, things seem to have gone a bit off track there in this thread), and the first option feels like its going to be very slow until i get to Abjurant. Im play testing a bit for a while then ill come back. thanks guys for all the help!
Of those options, all of them will be able to do what you're asking for to a greater or lesser extent.
I'd suggest the first or the second build, given what you've said - they're the most newbie-friendly.
For the first build, your sorcerer spells will be limited for levels 1 through 6ish or so. For Jedi, you might want Charm Person and Shield (the latter's kind of needed for AbjChamp); get more powerful telekinetics as soon as you can, since you'll be limited to cantrips like Mage Hand and Launch Bolt. Once Suggestion comes online, swap out Charm for that, and you've got your mind trick. Don't get too attached to the idea of a lightsaber, although you can build something similar with the aforementioned Wand of Flame Blade. (It's not a sorcerer spell, though, so you won't get wand rates for this and will have to look for use-activated.) Along the way, you'll have your hands full getting used to the crusader, but it's not that difficult to manage if you use cards for each of your maneuvers (hint: "Readied" = in your draw pile; shuffle when battle starts, "granted" = in your hand; you draw two (or three with the right feat) at the start of combat, "expended" = in your discard pile, "refresh maneuvers" = shuffle discard into draw pile, happens whenever you go to draw and there are none).
For the second build, remember that duskblades don't do much besides DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. You get the magic sword effects, but no telekinesis, acrobatics, or mind tricks. They're easy to play though, and if that's what you want to do go ahead.
The bard, while being more complicated, will be your best overall fit. It's not QUITE as complex as it seems, although metamagic stunt builds often can be. Here, you're just making a few particularly cool spells last all day, and one of those spells combined with a few Diamond Mind maneuvers gives you the Jedi deflect ability. Bard skills are sufficiently acrobatic, their non-persisting spells tend to be based off of mind tricks and similar, and you can make yourself a combat badass by drawing upon The Force your spell list. (There's a lot of surprisingly good "blade bard" spells out there; just look through the books. Two that come to mind are Whirling Blade and Bladeweave.) With a bit of special gear, usually documented under Snowflake Wardancer builds, you can go the extra mile into becoming a powerhouse.
Wouldn't a DMM cleric better at that point though.
...Are you trying to miss the point of the build?A one shot channeled harm each round as a standard action is nowhere near the damage of the build I posted.
And? Your build is inefficient. It does far too much excess damage, whereas mine can one-shot large numbers of enemies with Harm, or just Plane Shift someone into the GTFO Dimension, or otherwise SoD them. Your is further vulnerable to any basic denial stategies.It lacks all forms of utility but it can really dish out some pain. It's just a hood with a hint of channelling.
And the Hood is a type of build that makes me cringe whenever I see it. Sloppy, old, tired, and inefficient, not to mention highly vulnerable.Wouldn't abjurant champion be better for your build though?
Why would it be? It doesn't give much, although I suppose if you really wanted to fit it in, there'd be room.
I just feel like the channeling is kind of wasted on that build. Buff and full attack seems better. Yes Hoods are excessive and really vulnerable but puts out impressive numbers from an optimization standpoint. And I suppose AbC grants CL 20 for Duskblade spells which would otherwise be 18. Unnecessary but nice.
Aeshkrau Illumian, Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5
Touch of Summoning qualifies you for Nar Demonbinder. If mixing settings isn't allowed, Arcane Disciple works as well. Otherwise, if you can use flaws, Fiendish Heritage/Fiendish Legacy gets you in as well.
Relevant feats beyond the qualifying feats are Fey Bloodline, Mother Cyst and Versatile Spellcaster. Nar Demonbinder gives you 8th-level spells at CL 20. While the only good spell for channeling is Plane Shift, you do get a lot of pretty powerful utility spells, including Blasphemy (which can be used against any alignment thanks to inimical casting) and Greater Planar Binding. Mother Cyst and Fey Bloodline add spells known to your list, including Otto's Irresistible Dance (because full attack channeling Otto's Irresistible Dance is just mean), and Necrotic Cyst to implant cysts in enemies with your attacks. Since Fey Bloodline and Mother Cyst add 9th-level spells known, Versatile Spellcaster can be used to access 9th-level spells. (Although Wail of the Banshee isn't a spectacular 9th-level spell to have, honestly, and probably not worth giving up two full attack channeled Irresistible Dances... still, it's nice to have that benchmark).
I have a few versions of the build, including a fairly simple one with no real untoward choices, and one BBEG version that uses flaws, Elder Evils, and also picks up a UA bloodline. The latter version is pretty nasty, tossing out CL 26 inimical Blasphemies before CL-boosting items are even taken into account. Here's the full build:
Show
Magnus Veritas
Illumian (aeshkrau) with major demon bloodline, Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5
Dedicated to Zargon the Returner (Elder Evils)
1- Versatile Spellcaster, Willing Deformity
FLAW: Fiendish Heritage
FLAW: Fey Bloodline
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
2- Power Attack, Combat Casting
3- Mother Cyst
5- Deformity (Tall)
6- Spell Focus (Conjuration)
9- Fiendish Legacy
10- Deformity (Madness)
12- Arcane Strike
14- Cleave
15- Power in the Blood, Deformity (Tongue)
18- Practiced Spellcaster (Duskblade)
20- Apostate
Fluff is that Magnus is the product of two great lines, on the one side a great grandchild of the Queen of Air and Darkness from the Unseelie Court, and on the other side the child of a Cynidicean bloodline that had been tainted by a great demon. A prophecy that combining these two ancient bloodlines could lead to an heir capable of awakening the long-lost Zargon has led dark forces to unite Magnus' parents and to train him in the lost arts of demonbinding.
Magnus Veritas
Illumian (aeshkrau) with major demon bloodline, Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5
Dedicated to Zargon the Returner (Elder Evils)
1- Versatile Spellcaster, Willing Deformity
FLAW: Fiendish Heritage
FLAW: Fey Bloodline
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
2- Power Attack, Combat Casting
3- Mother Cyst
5- Deformity (Tall)
6- Spell Focus (Conjuration)
9- Fiendish Legacy
10- Deformity (Madness)
12- Arcane Strike
14- Cleave
15- Power in the Blood, Deformity (Tongue)
18- Practiced Spellcaster (Duskblade)
20- Apostate
Fluff is that Magnus is the product of two great lines, on the one side a great grandchild of the Queen of Air and Darkness from the Unseelie Court, and on the other side the child of a Cynidicean bloodline that had been tainted by a great demon. A prophecy that combining these two ancient bloodlines could lead to an heir capable of awakening the long-lost Zargon has led dark forces to unite Magnus' parents and to train him in the lost arts of demonbinding.
Why didn't you go Sublime Chord, just out of idle curiousity?
A few reasons...
- I wanted to get both full attack channeling and 9ths, since I had yet to see a build do both. Unfortunately Sublime Chord would require a dip into something for bardic music, which would mean dropping one of those two. I also wanted to see how high I could get "natural" BAB to go on a build with access to 9ths, without resorting to Magical Training/Eldritch Corruption/Extra Spell or whatever.
- It's silly, but duskblade/sublime chords have been done before. I've never seen a duskblade/nar demonbinder, even though I think it's a neat combo, and I thought it was fun figuring out ways to qualify for NDB on a duskblade chassis. I also absolutely love nar demonbinder as a class, so that kind of helps.
- Once the build was done, I really found myself enjoying how the pieces fit together thematically. I know that fluff is mutable and I could just as easily find a way to apply the same basic build concept to a duskblade/sublime chord or duskblade/ur-priest, but I still really like the idea of a duskblade/demonbinder unlocking the ancient powers of his blood.
I know that a duskblade/sublime chord is strictly better - Shapechange alone will do a heck of a lot more for a gish than full attack channeling, even if the full attack channeled Irresistible Dance is a fun trick. But I wanted to go a different direction for this build, and I really kind of like where it ended up.
I just feel like the channeling is kind of wasted on that build.
So the ability to put SoDs on any of your base attacks, or have single attacks with enough damage to kill anything where actually attacking it at all is a decent use of an action in one shot is a "waste?"Buff and full attack seems better.
>Full attack
>Better than 9sYes Hoods are excessive and really vulnerable but puts out impressive numbers from an optimization standpoint.
No, they don't. They put out wasteful numbers. Overkill is pointless, and when you're putting stupid amounts of investment in it, it crosses the line into bad.And I suppose AbC grants CL 20 for Duskblade spells which would otherwise be 18. Unnecessary but nice.
Again, why? Duskblade's best usage is Versatile Spellcaster.While it lacks some of the raw power of the Ur-Priest thanks to less flexibility in 9th-level spells, I did put together a duskblade build that gets full attack channeling and 9th-level spells, with +19 BAB (no Divine Power needed). Here's the thread where I discuss it, but it's basically...
Aeshkrau Illumian, Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5
Why didn't you go Sublime Chord, just out of idle curiousity?
9s are way better than any melee and you could use those spells to buff and full attack than wasted on channeling. Single attack channeling is rather unimpressive to me. I'd rather have a Sorcadin or just a CoDzilla but better than all of those are GOD wizards. Why kill only one thing a turn when you can render multiple enemies useless with a single spell.