I'm new to the game so i don't know alot about character builds and whatnot. so i could use some help. and be gentle its my first time. I've been working on an idea of a Duskblade character with dips into Factotum and Warblade. However I came across a class called "Iaijutsu Master". so here is my questions. 1) is Iaijutsu Master even a "real" class or just a homebrew. 2) if it is "real" then how could i incorporate it into the mix. 3) how would all of these even work? would it be a total fail or a relative win? My concept is to have a medium armor wearing warrior who relies on a "bastard sword", for the two handed strikes able to be made when magic fails or out of spells. I wan him to be able to strike first and often, hit hard, have "unparralled speed" for both on foot, to reach the target of his choice more often than not, and in combat. all the while being able to throw magic around thru defensive magic and offensive magic such as touch spells and firing off a lightning bolt or three every now and again. I also want his magic dmg to be descent, so the target doesn't laugh at my magical abilities and enough to last a couple (2-3)of fights a day.
Lv. 30 half dragon/ half elf
Sex: Male
Size: Medium
Height: 6' 1"
Weight: 185 lb
str. 18, con. 16, Int. 17, Dex. 14, Cha. 16, Wis. 13
This is my starting point for maxing my character. any suggestions, tips are welcomed. I'm also using this as a planning to see where my character will go thruout his life.
The natural breaking points for a high-level build are the following:
- Duskblade 3 or 13 for Arcane Channeling or Arcane Channeling (full attack)
- Factotum 8 (Cunning surge), 11 (Cunning breach) or 19 (Cunning brilliance)
Warblade is very flexible so every level is a potential breaking point.
From there on, it really depends what you want to do with your character!
Duskblade 13/Factotum 8/Warblade 9
Duskblade 3/Factotum 19/Warblade 8
Duskblade 3/Factotum 11/Warblade 16
are all fine.
Eternal Blade (ToB) could be a fine finish too. Master of Nine (ToB) as well.
If it were up to me, I think I'd skip Duskblade and go Factotum 19/Warblade 11 or Factotum 19/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10 or Factotum 8/Warblade 20/X 2.
Due to how Initiator levels work, getting the Warblade levels at the end will mean you'll get access to level 9 maneuvers.
Without actually knowing more about your character and his concept and how he's supposed to be used I don't think you can really get a "good" answer. Without knowing what you're actually looking for I might consider using Dragon Disciple, Abjurant Champion, and Battle Sorcerer if I'm being given 30 levels to plan for. My basic idea would me warrior/BS4/DD10/AbC5/others10 with things staggered so that I can take DD 9-10 after 20th-level (thus avoiding the BAB loss at DD9) and filling up my spellcasting so that DD's bonus slots go to the highest level spells I know. I'll point out that AbC5 gets an ability which sets caster level equal to your BAB so while you may not have "high level spells" you get a high caster level on the ones you do use. AbC also works nicely with the Shield spell (+9 AC) leaving you free to use weapon two-handed.
Um... How and why the **** are you starting out at level THIRTY???
its to plan... that way i have an idea of the way i want to go while ingame.. i think of it as a rough outline/ draft for his career. not exactly an end all be all to his story but a guide so to speak.
Um... How and why the **** are you starting out at level THIRTY???
its to plan... that way i have an idea of the way i want to go while ingame.. i think of it as a rough outline/ draft for his career.
That's different. At what level are you starting? Also, most builds tend to end at level 20 because Epic rules get wonky. Are you sure the game will actually go through to level 30?
I'll echo draco1119 when saying "level 30" and asking how/why. I'll also ask what you mean when you say half-dragon/half-elf. Are you saying he's an Elf half dragon or a half-elf half dragon? Hopefully you see the distiction. I also want to know how/if that level 30 accounts for the +3 LA that being a half-dragon provides.
Without actually knowing more about your character and his concept and how he's supposed to be used I don't think you can really get a "good" answer. Without knowing what you're actually looking for I might consider using Dragon Disciple, Abjurant Champion, and Battle Sorcerer if I'm being given 30 levels to plan for. My basic idea would me warrior/BS4/DD10/AbC5/others10 with things staggered so that I can take DD 9-10 after 20th-level (thus avoiding the BAB loss at DD9) and filling up my spellcasting so that DD's bonus slots go to the highest level spells I know. I'll point out that AbC5 gets an ability which sets caster level equal to your BAB so while you may not have "high level spells" you get a high caster level on the ones you do use. AbC also works nicely with the Shield spell (+9 AC) leaving you free to use weapon two-handed.
half-elf half-dragon. and no i didn't account for the +3 LA. i really new to this whole character building and i don't know exactly all the ins and outs.. like i said to draco i'm trying to get some advice from the experienced players on the subject. and use what i learn about a "max" character to model my story after. so in the end i'll have a character that looks extremely close to what i've learned about from you and everyone who shares their knowledge/ ideas with me
As for the character himself.. i was thinking a DB ( i've read the bladesinger book from Forgotten Realms and i like his style and i stumbled across the DB and liked his style to and they're similar from what i can tell) mainly for the arcane magic, and the warblade for the melee striking and factotum for the versatility... In my head he can close with an enemy and do good dmg with his blade, have the "ranged spells" that do descent dmg not match or outshine a true mage/wizard type person but not something to laugh at either. I want him to be able to hold his own but i realize he's not going to outdo any singular purpose character. aka. a pure martial or pure "magic" character.
I hope that helps with understanding whats in my head... but i have a feeling i'm not doing my imagination justice. lol.
Um... How and why the **** are you starting out at level THIRTY???
its to plan... that way i have an idea of the way i want to go while ingame.. i think of it as a rough outline/ draft for his career.
That's different. At what level are you starting? Also, most builds tend to end at level 20 because Epic rules get wonky. Are you sure the game will actually go through to level 30?
Lv. 5 i was thinking. to high? sorry for the confusion
Um... How and why the **** are you starting out at level THIRTY???
its to plan... that way i have an idea of the way i want to go while ingame.. i think of it as a rough outline/ draft for his career.
That's different. At what level are you starting? Also, most builds tend to end at level 20 because Epic rules get wonky. Are you sure the game will actually go through to level 30?
Lv. 5 i was thinking. to high? sorry for the confusion
I've never been a big fan of fully fleshed out 20th-level builds and when you push that up into the epic levels it just gets crazy. I do appreciate having a goal in mind but I choose to keep the details as flexible as possible. This may not result in a min/maxed character, which you may need for DnD in some cases, but gives you one you can grow.
Another major issue with starting by looking at a 20th-level character is that you need to figure out how to get there which may not be so easy. It may not be the most optimal but I could see playing a Mystic Theruge at 16th-level and up but the problem with that is usually playing from 4th to say 10th to 12th level. A big LA is another thing that may be easier to accept at high levels (assuming buy-off isn't used) as it has given you more time for the LA to help; with the Half-Dragon more levels means the CON boost may finally help get you the hp you gave up for the template.
Writing a character up at 5th-level is actually a pretty good starting point as you should advance through the first few levels fairly quickly and it may take a couple levels before your "concept" starts to show through. At 5th-level I'd avoid being a half-dragon which would just give you two class levels to work with. Now when I read your concept I see the basic ideas of a 'gish' character. A 'gish' is the Githyanki term for a warrior/wizard and is often used to describe any character who can fight well without magic but can still use arcane magic. The Duskblade is possibly the best single class embodiment of this idea but with some multiclassing you may be able to do better. That warrior1/BS4/DD10/AbC5 I mentioned earlier is one possible gish example although you may be much better of mechanically without all the levels in DD.
Um... How and why the **** are you starting out at level THIRTY???
its to plan... that way i have an idea of the way i want to go while ingame.. i think of it as a rough outline/ draft for his career.
That's different. At what level are you starting? Also, most builds tend to end at level 20 because Epic rules get wonky. Are you sure the game will actually go through to level 30?
Lv. 5 i was thinking. to high? sorry for the confusion
I've never been a big fan of fully fleshed out 20th-level builds and when you push that up into the epic levels it just gets crazy. I do appreciate having a goal in mind but I choose to keep the details as flexible as possible. This may not result in a min/maxed character, which you may need for DnD in some cases, but gives you one you can grow.
Another major issue with starting by looking at a 20th-level character is that you need to figure out how to get there which may not be so easy. It may not be the most optimal but I could see playing a Mystic Theruge at 16th-level and up but the problem with that is usually playing from 4th to say 10th to 12th level. A big LA is another thing that may be easier to accept at high levels (assuming buy-off isn't used) as it has given you more time for the LA to help; with the Half-Dragon more levels means the CON boost may finally help get you the hp you gave up for the template.
Writing a character up at 5th-level is actually a pretty good starting point as you should advance through the first few levels fairly quickly and it may take a couple levels before your "concept" starts to show through. At 5th-level I'd avoid being a half-dragon which would just give you two class levels to work with. Now when I read your concept I see the basic ideas of a 'gish' character. A 'gish' is the Githyanki term for a warrior/wizard and is often used to describe any character who can fight well without magic but can still use arcane magic. The Duskblade is possibly the best single class embodiment of this idea but with some multiclassing you may be able to do better. That warrior1/BS4/DD10/AbC5 I mentioned earlier is one possible gish example although you may be much better of mechanically without all the levels in DD.
"At 5th-level I'd avoid being a half-dragon which would just give you two class levels to work with" i don't understand this. is it because being half dragon hampers you in some way.. if thats the case then i don't really need it. i was just throwing it in there cause i liked the idea
. i'd just as easily go with a full elf or human for that matter. how could i streamline my little concept to make it more noob friendly? this is after all my first dive into the world. i plan on keeping it flexible... but i'm gonna try to build him as close as possible to whatever i learn here (crossing my fingers)@ draco.. no i'm not sure if the game would even reach that lv. i'm just throwing that out there to see the feedback. i understand now that most games only reach up to lv 20 or so..
I've never been a big fan of fully fleshed out 20th-level builds and when you push that up into the epic levels it just gets crazy. I do appreciate having a goal in mind but I choose to keep the details as flexible as possible. This may not result in a min/maxed character, which you may need for DnD in some cases, but gives you one you can grow.
Another major issue with starting by looking at a 20th-level character is that you need to figure out how to get there which may not be so easy. It may not be the most optimal but I could see playing a Mystic Theruge at 16th-level and up but the problem with that is usually playing from 4th to say 10th to 12th level. A big LA is another thing that may be easier to accept at high levels (assuming buy-off isn't used) as it has given you more time for the LA to help; with the Half-Dragon more levels means the CON boost may finally help get you the hp you gave up for the template.
I very much agree with all that.
@ZeroKnight: With all this new info... forget about my post above.
Going straight Duskblade is fine for you: better not overload yourself with too many classes.
At level 5 (and above), your tactics are simple: move to an enemy, channel a damaging spell though your weapon and whack him.
"At 5th-level I'd avoid being a half-dragon which would just give you two class levels to work with" i don't understand this. is it because being half dragon hampers you in some way.. if thats the case then i don't really need it. i was just throwing it in there cause i liked the idea
Half Dragon has a level adjustment of +3. This means your character is treated as if he is three level higher then his HD would indicate. To be the equivalent of a 5th-level character your half-dragon could only have two class levels. Adding templates can really complicate a character.
If you're looking for streamlined then I'll agree that going straight Duskblade may be the easiest especially to start with. Both Human and Elf are normally considered better races to use then the half-elf. If you want to become a half-dragon later Duskblade can be a pretty useful way in although it does mean some compromises.
As for a DM restricting you to three classes I'd say he's being an *** or is just lazy by using something that can't accept more then three classes. I'm sorry but a 12th-level character with levels in five or six different classes really isn't that much more complicated then one with two or three classes or even one with a single class.
okay on a seperate note.. i'm looking at Neverwinter Nights 2 for the pc. any thoughts? is it a descent rep. of the pen and paper game? anyone ever play it? could a good "solo" gish build be made for it. i think it uses the 3.5 rules if i'm not mistaken...
i'm going to use is DB/WB/EKn. and i'll try to tweak it the best i can.. thanx for all the help and advice
okay on a seperate note.. i'm looking at Neverwinter Nights 2 for the pc. any thoughts? is it a descent rep. of the pen and paper game? anyone ever play it? could a good "solo" gish build be made for it. i think it uses the 3.5 rules if i'm not mistaken...
Duskblade/Warblade/EldritchKnight?? Why would you want to take levels in Eldritch Knight? It gets a bonus feat at first level but gives up spellcasting that same level and the full BAB and I believe hitpoints aren't any better then what adding more levels of Duskblade would give you. EK is an important part of many builds that use a low BAB casting class but the Duskblade is certainly NOT one of those.
Never played NWN2 but did play through NWN and its earlier expansions. I had a lot of fun with it. While you can pick up companions I often think of it more as a solo game with a henchmen along to provide some benefits. In NWN I did play a Paladin/Sorcerer with success. Although it really isn't much of a "gish" I also did a Bard/ShadowDancer/ArcaneArcher (due to limit of three classes in the game) which was great fun because I could unleash bunch of arrows and then Hide in Plain Sight and move somewhere else to repeat.
i'm going to use is DB/WB/EKn. and i'll try to tweak it the best i can.. thanx for all the help and advice
Seconding StevenO. You get everything you'd want from EK by taking more Duskblade - same HD, same base attack, same skill points, better saves, and same casting, along with better class features. Straight warblade/duskblade in some combination will be better - and not only that, due to the interesting way ToB multiclassing works, all you need is to time your warblade levels every so often and your maneuvers will be "up to date".
The only "theurge-style" PrC to consider in this particular case is Jade Phoenix Mage, and honestly it doesn't add all that much to duskblade casting that more duskblade wouldn't also give you, and it's not all that easy to build in comparison. (Its big advantage is the ability to advance more powerful spellcasters while keeping combat potential up, and duskblade casting on its own isn't all that amazing.)
You might not actually want to aim for Duskblade 13, depending on how you play. The big advantage to Duskblade 13 is that you can channel a spell into a full attack, but warblade levels de-emphasize full attacks. Similarly, duskblade isn't always rewarding for casting, since it's all focused on DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE; you need a high caster level, but thanks to thinks like Practiced Spellcaster, this doesn't always depend on your number of duskblade levels, and since you aren't reshaping reality, you aren't penalized for losing that many extra levels. Keep that in mind when designing your class balance.
okay on a seperate note.. i'm looking at Neverwinter Nights 2 for the pc. any thoughts? is it a descent rep. of the pen and paper game? anyone ever play it? could a good "solo" gish build be made for it. i think it uses the 3.5 rules if i'm not mistaken...
Played through it and its expansions several times myself. It is 3.5, but pretty close to core 3.5 with a splash of the Completes (it includes the warlock, spirit shaman, and swashbuckler, along with a host of basic PrCs, only one of which (Neverwinter Nine) is new to the game). It does NOT include swift actions, though.
It's a good game, and pretty close to the rules conceptually, but they did take quite a few liberties for computer play. Most of them are subtle changes in how a few things work, or occasional tweaks to a class (of varying impact), but dramatically, you can rest given just five seconds of downtime, which makes spellcasters impossibly powerful and buffing practically annoying (i.e. if you have to wait for your casters to throw up three buffs each every few minutes when those buffs are designed to last several hours, you tend to not care about buffing (because you can rest and recharge so quickly) and switch your spells accordingly). Given how you're usually controlling a party of four or five (and you've got a pretty long list of companions to choose from), this can be kind of tricky to manage.
Independent of how it handles D&D, though, it's a fun campaign set, by and large. The expansions, in particular: The first expansion is on par with Planescape: Torment in terms of depth, characterization, and overall quality, while the second gives you a pretty decent open-ended approach to tackling D&D when most games would be linear. (The second expansion is noteworthy because it emphasizes the party instead of individual characters (there's no characterization of your main team beyond race, skills, and alignment: you assemble your team from four of your created characters, and control all of them at once), and makes an effort to apply your skills in unusual ways (i.e. since wilderness movement actually matters, the ranger is no longer useless, and rapidly becomes one of the best classes to have on your team!).) The main campaign is kind of trope-heavy and quite aware of that fact; I like it but realize that it's the weakest of the three official storylines.
In terms of "solo gish" in NWN2, there's quite a few - largely because the Eldritch Knight is included. Although it doesn't do melee that well, a single-class warlock is also surprisingly effective in the game; I've long maintained that the warlock is basically an "archer with magic instead of steel", and it feels like it here. (The warlock had a couple substantial changes from the Complete Arcane version which actually makes it alarmingly fun to play in the game too - for instance, Flee the Scene doesn't teleport (there are no teleports), but rather casts a short-duration Haste on the whole party, regardless of where they are, while Eldritch Doom doesn't have to be centered on the caster.) It's also quite possible to build up a good battle bard - one of the "Recommended" styles they include is a blade bard, which isn't actually all that bad - and this can rock very hard late-game due to the way the bard's music was changed. (Briefly, you have an "aura" of sorts always active (this includes Inspire Courage, but it can be changed) and can spend bardic music uses on more potent effects - up to and including the War Chanter's INSPIRE LEGION at level 18.) Since the game gives you a fighter ally for the prologue, and Khelgar joins permanently shortly after that, you can even afford to play a squishy-wizard-opening style of gish. (Khelgar's been cited many times as a good case study of how to build a tank in NWN2. I'd agree, by and large - in a game without serious AoO tanking, he's damn good at holding the line, even if you don't control his level-ups. They even avoid some of the late-game "fighter-suck" by having a series of quests based around what amounts to a dwarven Excalibur, and, well, it rocks. You even have the option to rebuild him from fighter to monk later on (the only monk in your party), so if your own gishing abilities begin to make him useless, switch him to monk and explore that aspect of the game.)
On a side note: The original NWN had an arbitrary three-class limit in it as well for technical reasons. NWN2 also has a limit, but it was raised to 4. (I personally only hit that limit in the second expansion; Bard / Fighter / Dragon Disciple / Frenzied Berserker turned out to be far more effective than I thought it would be in that game. (Yes, NWN2 frenzied berserker is a lot easier to qualify for, but due to the way Power Attack works there, and the better control over Frenzy, it isn't quite as game-breaking or party-ending. Bard was just there for initial skills and to qualify for Dragon Disciple, which I picked for its Strength and natural armor boosts.) Granted, the expansion cares a lot about skills and about all this guy could do was Intimidate, but that's what the rest of the team was for.)
This being said, with a few exceptions you're actually going to end up with a more powerful character if you go single class. I'm with Tempest on the list of people that have played the crap out of NWN2.
NWN2 rewards you a lot for PRCS but the bonus epic feats for being a straight class 30 destroy most of those prc benefits. This is the same sort of function that occures in 3.5 tabletop.
You'll find that Fighters do better damage than Duskblades (mostly) and that Wizards win fights. Warblades can do more consistant damage than fighters and in some cases better still, and have more options. Did I mention Wizards win fights? Duskblade is however FUN, so is Psychic Warrior, The Gish INNA BOX is generally not as good as the straight caster, or a custom Gish but it's easier and usually gets neat abilities.
does anyone have any good "solo" ish builds for a gish? just looking for builds that might be fun to try later on down the road. I came across one called the Collosus of War... wow that looks (to a noob like me) to be completely OP and cheesed up alot. but on the whole its pretty interesting and i would like to modify and tone it down alot to make it a more "realistic" version and the persistent spell thing is interesting i've never seen a spelldancer before. does it only work on divine spells? Paladin
Sorcerer
Spellsword
Spelldancer
Eldritch Knight
would they work together fairly well? the SD is in there to persist a couple of buffs for the day. i'm kinda lazy sometimes.
on a seperate note i'm trying to get my bro to join me. he likes a mage. basically he wants to walk up/ around something and blast the be-jesus out of it, an "I win button" if you will.. i was thinking something along the lines of a straight sor. or wiz. maybe even an Archivist mix of somesort.. that way he can have every divine spell in the game if he's got the money/ inclination.
Paladin 2 (so you get CHA for saves)
Sorcerer 4 (to finish meeting prereqs for....)
Spellsword 1 (+1 BAB and +1 spellcasting advancement, BAB needed for...)
Abjurant Champion 5 (full BAB and spellcasting. Bonuses casting abjuration spells including the chance to cast a quickened, extended Shield spell that provides +9 AC with a 1st-level slot)
EK or SE 8
The Paladin/Sorcere style gish build is Paladin/Sorcerer/Spellsword/AbjurantChampion/EK or Sacred Exorcist if you can swing it. It is sometimes refered to as a Soradin and the basics is:
Paladin 2 (so you get CHA for saves)
Sorcerer 4 (to finish meeting prereqs for....)
Spellsword 1 (+1 BAB and +1 spellcasting advancement, BAB needed for...)
Abjurant Champion 5 (full BAB and spellcasting. Bonuses casting abjuration spells including the chance to cast a quickened, extended Shield spell that provides +9 AC with a 1st-level slot)
EK or SE 8
how "strong" is it ultimately? able to be a sort of off tank in case the main tank needs a quick breather and deal enough damage to "keep up" with the other classes?
The last eight levels could be Eldritch Knight leaving you with a +18 BAB and 17th-level spellcasting (no 9th-level spells
) or possibly Sacred Exorcist for a +16 BAB and 18th-level casting if you can manage its prereqs.I don't know about "enough damage to keep up" because that is really a misleading thing. Denying actions and otherwise hindering an opponent is often more effective at higher levels then just raw damage.
Bastard Sword as a primary weapon and Spike Chain as a secondary weapon is a HORRIBLE idea. The biggest reason for that is going to be proficiency requirements as both of them are exotic weapons which would typically eat two of your precious feats to get. I'll also say the Bastard Sword isn't that much better then a longsword and certainly not enough to justify a feat. The Spiked Chain is a wonderful weapon but when used it is almost always as a primary weapon; it may not deal the most damage but it is a very versatile weapon that can be used for just about every specialized maneuver you want.
ah... good point about the feats.. i wasn't thinking about that. the idea was just for flavour anyway... i like a sword. its my favorite weapon. oh well, i guess i can use a chain to be more useful to my group.. i'll have to save a sword build for another time i suppose....
Bastard Sword as a primary weapon and Spike Chain as a secondary weapon is a HORRIBLE idea. The biggest reason for that is going to be proficiency requirements as both of them are exotic weapons which would typically eat two of your precious feats to get. I'll also say the Bastard Sword isn't that much better then a longsword and certainly not enough to justify a feat. The Spiked Chain is a wonderful weapon but when used it is almost always as a primary weapon; it may not deal the most damage but it is a very versatile weapon that can be used for just about every specialized maneuver you want.
ah... good point about the feats.. i wasn't thinking about that. the idea was just for flavour anyway... i like a sword. its my favorite weapon. oh well, i guess i can use a chain to be more useful to my group.. i'll have to save a sword build for another time i suppose....
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword) from Secrets of Sarlona. It's the best of both worlds, since it's basically a longsword with reach. And like the spiked chain, it threatens at 5', too. Only real knock against it is that you can't 2h Power Attack with it.
Bastard Sword as a primary weapon and Spike Chain as a secondary weapon is a HORRIBLE idea. The biggest reason for that is going to be proficiency requirements as both of them are exotic weapons which would typically eat two of your precious feats to get.
Two of your feats... or just one of your levels. If you want, you can dip into the Master of Masks prestige class, from Complete Scoundrel. The Gladiator mask gives you proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons.