Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ObsidianConspiracy Dec 23, 2013 11:32:13	Long time no see people, so a friend and I have talked about this many times over. However neither of us have ever managed to commit to a build idea, or at least one that works. So thought I'd turn here and we can see what we're doing wrong (Within the constraints) and hopefully one of us can have a right good time.   Limitations (Thus the weaknesses) * MUST be Dvati, this is intended to be played by ONE person * Must capture the essence of aerial lucha wrestling, and must function as a tag team * NO MAGIC, I cannot stress this enough, the character/characters are physical only, this is the absolute biggest limitation on the idea, no magic, no psionic powers at all. Magic equipment IS allowed, but only because VoP is so bad. * May not wear armour that limits movement.   Extra * All books and Dragon Mag allowed, just reference DRM material as we've got them all between us. * Aim for a playable build at all levels to 20 * Buy-off, flaws and traits ARE allowed. 2 Flaws max
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Dec 23, 2013 12:08:37	Simplest approach: Swordsage (unarmed variant preferred) with Tiger Claw (jumps) and Setting Sun (throws) maneuvers. This isn't magical at all, and easily works with raw strength and technique. Done and done.   If you want to get them working together, look into AoO optimization and have each throw targets between each other. (There's a lot that can be done in this direction.) Another option is to consider dipping some other martial class for White Raven maneuvers; being able to supply your twin with opportunities to strike seems worthwhile.   I'll have to read a bit more on this, because the Dvati are kind of involved (and that's putting it simply). Bloody Dragon material...
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Dec 23, 2013 14:24:46	Neat and weird. I'd second going Unarmed Swordsage, you don't even really need Improved Grapple as so few Lucha moves are matt wrestling. I'm a double dork here as in I AM a big fan of pro-wrestling and love the high flying stuff as well as the technical stuff.   Moving on to discussion of this character though, you'll get to double dip HARD as a martial adept, you're no spellcaster but since it seems you're capable of each taking actions so long as they are not spells meaning two seperate stances, and two maneuvers each round. I would rule you share your maneuver's readied pool between you however but that doesn't stop one of you from using Adaptive Style to get em all back (the other I'd argue can't use maneuvers that round). I'd certainly recommend getting the Island of Blades stance to take advantage of the flanking bonus to hit, you can take Shadow Blade and be Dex based characters if you'd like not really having to worry about Str to hit for the first several levels since you'll always have that giant flanking bonus. So you can take Adaptive Style (important since you'll rip through maneuvers) at 3, and Weapon Finesse at 6 where you might just finally be starting to feel the low AB. Jump is still Str based which kind of sucks but get plenty of Jump Bonus and Speed Boosts on your gear and you won't notice, as well at least one of the two can eventually use Leaping Dragon Stance to do all the crazy acrobatic moves without even having to get a running start.   The halved HP thing kind of sucks but you can make it work by using ambush tactics as a Swordsage who hits with two maneuvers each round. So, how do you make them work as a tag team? Use maneuvers every other martial adept wishes they could use two of in the same round. You'll be able to do stuff like inflict some nasty status (prone, dazed, flat-footed, stunned, nauseated, etc.) with one twin and have the other just hit the guy hard.   All in all this is a fairly exciting build concept, if a bit fragile at low level. Use hide/move silently and common sense or these guys will both die.
#4 ObsidianConspiracy Dec 23, 2013 18:09:40	At low level this sort of thing would not be just fragile, it'd be more like sugar-glass....    One thing that I feel is a must for this, and disagree if you wish, is Bullybasher's Gauntlets from weapons of legacy, because, as wrestlers you do still need to grapple and pin, so surely the bonuses these provide gives something to compensate a little in that respect. Effectively one twin wears them, the other distracts, drops etc. and the first twin moves in?
#5 Luna_Trigger Dec 23, 2013 18:29:21	ObsidianConspiracy wrote:
#6 Andarious-Rosethorn Dec 23, 2013 21:09:39	I'm going to second the "Don't bother with grappling" sentament. You can achieve a professional wrestling style "pin" in many ways. Making a foe run out of HP (or Non-lethal damage) makes them unconcious, and pinnable for the most straight foreward method. Technically a D&D Stun or Paralysis effect lasts 6 seconds (one round), allowing plenty of time for a pin (that's REALLY easy to accomplish, and you can even trip the guy before or as part of the same aciton), and there's little need for magic or even magic items to make this possible vs a medium sized humanoid opponent.   You'll also remain effective against larger non-humanoid targets if you just focus on the "essence of lucha-libre" rather than trying to reproduce it exactly in D&D terms. Have the guys wear their masks, guard their idenities etc just as any lucha would, have them pull the high-flying self-sacrificing stunt style moves they'll get access to out of Tiger Claw and leverage throws (hip toss anyone?) out of Setting Sun.   A simple comparrison of weather or not to bother with Shadow Blade and Weapon finesse goes like this. Pro: Higher AC by Dex synergy, Combat Reflexes synergy, Higher Reflex save (normally this would be low weight, but these guys are low HP and could die to a failed save vs Fireball realistically). Con: Requires two feats, limits stance options greatly, lower grapple bonus (this can be subverted with Escape Artist ranks and or gear).   I hope this is helping.
#7 ObsidianConspiracy Dec 28, 2013 0:11:04	Problem with remaining in the Shadow Hand stances does have one problem, some of the setting sun stances would be pretty good for it as well. Come to think of it, although it would be a huge feat investment, would Mo9 fit in at all for dual stance when it's needed now and again? Or would that be pushing too much do you think?     Adaptive Style = Tag in/out in this case it would seem.    Shadow blade is a nice feat, but I think for the most part since your damage comes from maneouvres it might just be a tiny boost in comparison, since it's unlikely that they'll attack too much other than to use their signature moves.    SS was my go to look at, or WB, so it seems there is at least something that will probably end up set in stone, just finding ways not to get destroyed early game now... though I imagine some of the SS defensive stances and manouevres will help with that, before the inevitable party wizard becomes too good for these dudes to keep up
#8 Andarious-Rosethorn Dec 28, 2013 4:35:23	You're probably far from wrong about Shadow Blade OC. The ol Mot9 is a class I quite love. One of the better ways to qualify IMO is something like Warblade 3, Swordsage 2, Warblade +2. I prefer more Warblade to swordsage because of the BAB, Bonus feats and better recovery method. Alternatively, you can use Crusader rather than Swordsage in this and do an idiot Crusader aspect for WRT cheese, but while it is a realy cool tag-team move it's WAY cheesy and probably doesn't suite as much as the Swordsage throw options will.