1) Now this is where I need some advice one of the guys wants to play a dual wielding dwarven fighter. Sub-optimal we know but it is a flavor thing so this is what he wants to play. The issue with this is he wants to dual wield dwarven war axes. As this is some uncharted territory we are curious as to the best way to make this a efficient concept. He seems enamored with the rending strike out of PHB 2 so if you have anything that optimizes that it would be much appreciated.
2) My brother wants to play a rogue. I have suggested the throwing build from 339 and a rogue/swashbuckler and he did not appear particularly interested in either one. So I was curious as to other rogue type builds that could be made effective with having flanking partners. My brother also love skills, that is why I suggested swashbuckler/rogue + daring outlaw seemed to synergize well, so any kind of advice on super skill monkey builds would be appreciated.
Books: No Eberon or Forgotten Realms specific material, maybe able to get a single feat in with DM permission but we do not own any of the books. No psychic stuff, just not wanted flavor wise, and no ToB or Bo9S please, we don't own the books and have not cracked open that can of worms.
Edit: All WoTC books allowed. Excluding Eberron and Faerun specific material, one feat maybe but not classes/races. No psychics or ToB
Level: between 5-8
Starting Wealth: 7-10k per level to start.
Sorry for my lack of clarity
Any and all help appreciated if you need more info that I have left out please just let me know.
Thanks.
Now if you list what books are allowed/have I can give you some better advice as to possible build ideas.
:D
obtusehobbit: someone on BG implied that the class ability would not work fro a dual wielder were they incorrect?
"When weilding a one Handed Exotic Melee weapon in two hands".... thus you are 2 Handed Fighting with a One Handed Weapon.... not fighting with One Handed Weapons in BOTH hands
TWF + Uncanny Blow does not work
:D
:D
1 primary meleeist - makes stuff dead...fast.
Ranger1/Dwarf Fighter2/Barbarian2/Deepwarden2/EWM1 wielding a Dwarven Urgrosh 2handed using the Flurry of Strikes EWM trick. Thats ECL8. Take the 2nd level for Uncanny Blow (Urgrosh works with BOTH!), and then you can head into a full BAB class like Pious Templar or Occult Slayer are both great. I tend to like to stay away from Frenzied Berzerker for flavor/balance/partysympathy sake, but you would be free to take it. Bear Warrior might be another interesting route, due to Deepwarden.
Similar build here.
1 melee/magic assist - Buffs/supports/hacksnslashes.
Wizard5/Fighter1/Runesmith1/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1/EldrichKnight7
or something similar. Keeps nearly full casting in whatever armor you want (thanks to Runesmith) and also keeps pretty full casting. Use of Arcane Strike/PA with a 2handed Dwarven Waraxe in melee would be pretty effective. Unfortunately, I don't really have much a build for this other than what I've already posted, and I'm sure someone else could build this a bit better than I could, but at least its a start.
Oh, and check out Complete Mage for Spellguard rings. Blatently abuse these, you know you want to!
Here is a build suggestion.
Race: Dwarf
Stats: Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Chr 6
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Ranger 1: Power Attack
ACF: Trap Expert
2) Fighter 1:
ACF: Dwarf Sub Level 1
3) Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4) Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
5) Ranger 3: Endurance
6) Deep Warden 1: Track, Two-Weapon Pounce
7) Exotic Weapons Master 1:
8) Fighter 3:
9) Ranger 4: Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Leap Attack,
ACF: Champion of the Wild
10) Fighter 4: Shock Trooper
11) Bloodhound 1:
12) Bloodhound 2: Two-Weapon Rend
13) Bloodhound 3:
14) Bloodhound 4:
15) Bloodhound 5: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16) Bloodhound 6:
17) Bloodhound 7:
18) Bloodhound 8: Steadfast Determination
19) Bloodhound 9:
20) Bloodhound 10:
Race: Dwarf
Stats: Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Chr 6
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Ranger 1: Power Attack
ACF: Trap Expert
2) Fighter 1:
ACF: Dwarf Sub Level 1
3) Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4) Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
5) Ranger 3: Endurance
6) Deep Warden 1: Track, Two-Weapon Pounce
7) Exotic Weapons Master 1:
8) Fighter 3:
9) Ranger 4: Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Leap Attack,
ACF: Champion of the Wild
10) Fighter 4: Shock Trooper
11) Bloodhound 1:
12) Bloodhound 2: Two-Weapon Rend
13) Bloodhound 3:
14) Bloodhound 4:
15) Bloodhound 5: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16) Bloodhound 6:
17) Bloodhound 7:
18) Bloodhound 8: Steadfast Determination
19) Bloodhound 9:
20) Bloodhound 10:
hobbit: Is there another ACF other than trap expert seems a waste since one of the other characters is going to be a rogue why step on his toes? Also, what books did you use?
As far as trapmaster, because I didn't want track as a bonus feat twice so I picked the variant that lost track but gave something useful. The character does not have the skill points to play the party Trapfinder and qualify for the listed prestige Class, but has enough to invest a few points into Search and Disable Device allowing him to use Aid another action to assist the party Trapfinder.
Here is an alteration to the Previous build to incorporate Lion Totem Barbarian
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Ranger 1: Track, Power Attack
2) Fighter 1:
ACF: Dwarf Sub Level 1
3) Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4) Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
5) Barbarian 1:
ACF: Lion Totem
6) Barbarian 2: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
7) Exotic Weapons Master 1:
8) Fighter 3:
9) Fighter 4: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper
10) Ranger 3: Endurance
11) Bloodhound 1:
12) Bloodhound 2: Two-Weapon Rend
13) Bloodhound 3:
14) Bloodhound 4:
15) Bloodhound 5: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16) Bloodhound 6:
17) Bloodhound 7:
18) Bloodhound 8: Steadfast Determination
19) Bloodhound 9:
20) Bloodhound 10:
Notes: This build has trades a few skill point for the ability to full attack on a charge vrs only two Attacks. note you can trade out Steadfast Determination for Extra Rage since you only have normally Rage 1/day (Use against the BBEG). Overall for the primary fighter this build is superior out of combat with max Ranks in survival the character can be a decent tracker, but not a second party scout and tracker like the first. The build uses the same books as the first. So to summarize build 1 has more to do out of combat while build 2 is a better fighter, but both incorporate tracking.
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Ranger 1: Track, Power Attack
2) Fighter 1:
ACF: Dwarf Sub Level 1
3) Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4) Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
5) Barbarian 1:
ACF: Lion Totem
6) Barbarian 2: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
7) Exotic Weapons Master 1:
8) Fighter 3:
9) Fighter 4: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper
10) Ranger 3: Endurance
11) Bloodhound 1:
12) Bloodhound 2: Two-Weapon Rend
13) Bloodhound 3:
14) Bloodhound 4:
15) Bloodhound 5: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16) Bloodhound 6:
17) Bloodhound 7:
18) Bloodhound 8: Steadfast Determination
19) Bloodhound 9:
20) Bloodhound 10:
Notes: This build has trades a few skill point for the ability to full attack on a charge vrs only two Attacks. note you can trade out Steadfast Determination for Extra Rage since you only have normally Rage 1/day (Use against the BBEG). Overall for the primary fighter this build is superior out of combat with max Ranks in survival the character can be a decent tracker, but not a second party scout and tracker like the first. The build uses the same books as the first. So to summarize build 1 has more to do out of combat while build 2 is a better fighter, but both incorporate tracking.
BTW thank you for all your help hobbit you have been very insightful and useful with your build I appreciate the help a lot.
The first part of the Ability does not work for A Two-weapon Fighter since it requires you to wield a weapon in two hands, but from my understanding the second part of the ability has no such restriction it just allows you to treat the weapon as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of power attack. Will check books to double check I'm AFB right now.
the entire abilty is as follows:
Uncanny Blow:
When weilding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his strength bonus x2 instead of his strength bonus x1 1/2. If he has the power attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for the purpose of determining his bonus on damage rolls.
this ability is based on using a One-handed Weapon the same way you use a 2 handed weapon.... it boosts the damage output up from 1 1/2xStr(normal for a One-handed weapon weilded with 2 hands) to 2x Str bonus(normal for a Two-Handed weapon Weilded with 2 hands)
if you wield a One-handed weapon in each hand, with TWF you only get 1x Str to damage with Primary weapon, and 1/2xstr with off-hand weapon(and you get penalties to hit unless you have Oversized TWF feat)
:D
Earth Dwarf(UA)
Ranger 1/ Fighter 2(Dwarf sub lvl 1)/ Dwarf Paragon 3/ Deepwarden 2
Attributes: (32pt buy... racial +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma)
20 Str(14 +2 racial +2 Levels +2 Belt)
12 Dex(14 -2 racial)
20 Con(16 +2 racial +2 Paragon)
14 Int(14)
12 Wis(12)
6 Cha(8- 2 racial)
Earth Dwarf +Paragon Racial Traits
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma: Earth dwarves are physically powerful, but somewhat clumsy in action and speech.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the air subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Air.
-2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the air subtype or used by creatures of the air subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Air.
Stability: An Earth Dwarf gains a +8 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
Darkvision: Earth Dwarf Paragon can see in the dark up to 90 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Improved Stonecunning: This ability grants a Earth dwarf paragon a +6 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 20 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Also, he can intuit where true north lies in relation to himself (as if he had 5 ranks in Survival) whenever underground.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
+3 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+7 Bonus to Craft: (related to stone or metal items)
+4 Bonus to Appraise: (related to stone or metal items)
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma: Earth dwarves are physically powerful, but somewhat clumsy in action and speech.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the air subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Air.
-2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the air subtype or used by creatures of the air subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Air.
Stability: An Earth Dwarf gains a +8 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
Darkvision: Earth Dwarf Paragon can see in the dark up to 90 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Improved Stonecunning: This ability grants a Earth dwarf paragon a +6 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 20 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Also, he can intuit where true north lies in relation to himself (as if he had 5 ranks in Survival) whenever underground.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
+3 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+7 Bonus to Craft: (related to stone or metal items)
+4 Bonus to Appraise: (related to stone or metal items)
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
the entire abilty is as follows:
this ability is based on using a One-handed Weapon the same way you use a 2 handed weapon.... it boosts the damage output up from 1 1/2xStr(normal for a One-handed weapon wielded with 2 hands) to 2x Str bonus(normal for a Two-Handed weapon Wielded with 2 hands)
if you wield a One-handed weapon in each hand, with TWF you only get 1x Str to damage with Primary weapon, and 1/2xstr with off-hand weapon(and you get penalties to hit unless you have Oversized TWF feat)
:D
First, a Two-Handed weapon only get 1 1/2xstr to damage (per pg 113 PHB) so the first part of the argument is incorrect.
Secondly, under your interpretation the second part of the texts is made irrelevant, do to that fact that a one handed weapon wielded in in two hands already get a 1 to 2 return on power attack so treating the weapon as a Two-Handed weapon for power attack does nothing. Also, the Second sentence in no way refers to the first therefore it is a separate ability which states simple you now treat the weapon as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of power attack with no stipulation as to when. What does treating a weapon as a Two-Handed weapon for power attack get us, a 1 to 2 return on damage. So in summary the way I see it is a two part ability
A) When wielding the chosen weapon in two hands you get x2 strength damage.
B) You now treat the weapon as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of power attack
I would agree with your interpretation if there was something in the Errata or Faq that said the rules text was redundant since there is not, it must mean that the second sentence is there for a reason, and gives the character some benefit.
In the end any rules debates we have here are useless it would be up to StPeteGamer's DM to make the final call.
@ hobbit: I believe he would be more interested in the skirmisher build as long as he can still maintain a rogue like skill build. I know he is interested in wearing leather or maybe mithril chain so he is definitely looking for a light fighter type build. He has shown a proclivity to two weapon fighters in the past, but I do not think that this build it is neccessary.
Thanks for all the help guys and girls it has been extremely helpful.
A Draconic Themed Swift Hunter
Race: Dwarf
Stats: Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 10 Chr 12
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Scout 1: Dragontouched
2) Ranger 1:
ACF: Trap Expert
3) Ranger 2: Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge
4) Scout 2:
5) Scout 3:
6) Ranger 3: (Endurance) Precise Shot or Mobility
7) Ranger 4: Manyshot or Weapon Finesse
ACF: Champions of the Wild
8) Scout 4: Swift Hunter
9) Ranger 5: Greater Manyshot or Spring Attack
10) Hand of The Winged Master 1: (Draconic Senses)
11) Hand of The Winged Master 2:
12) Hand of The Winged Master 3: (Dragonfire Strike), Improved Skirmish
13) Hand of The Winged Master 4:
14) Hand of The Winged Master 5:
15) Hand of The Winged Master 6: Improved Precise Shot or Bounding Assualt
16) Hand of The Winged Master 7:
17) Hand of The Winged Master 8:
18) Hand of The Winged Master 9: Draconic Toughness
19) Hand of The Winged Master 10:
20) Deep Warden 1: Track
This build has strong skills With 8+int from scout levels and 6+int from all other levels. It has Search, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen as class skills for every level except 20 which only misses out on Search and Disable Device. The build ends up with skirmish damage of 8d6 (if you move 40ft) which it can turn into fire damage using dragonfire strike in which case it does 9d6+9, you also gain +4 to AC when you move. The build presented has two combat option.
1)Ranged using Greater Manyshot after a move action to get damage at range with up to 4 attacks (generally I only make 2-3 so I can actualy hit the target)
2)Hit and Run using spring attack to move in activating skirmish making two attacks with bounding assualt and then moving back out
Books used: PHB, PHB 2, Dragon Magic, Races of Stone, Complete Adventure, Complete Scoundrel, Races of Dragon, Complete Champion, Dungeonscape, and XPH
Race: Dwarf
Stats: Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 10 Chr 12
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Scout 1: Dragontouched
2) Ranger 1:
ACF: Trap Expert
3) Ranger 2: Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge
4) Scout 2:
5) Scout 3:
6) Ranger 3: (Endurance) Precise Shot or Mobility
7) Ranger 4: Manyshot or Weapon Finesse
ACF: Champions of the Wild
8) Scout 4: Swift Hunter
9) Ranger 5: Greater Manyshot or Spring Attack
10) Hand of The Winged Master 1: (Draconic Senses)
11) Hand of The Winged Master 2:
12) Hand of The Winged Master 3: (Dragonfire Strike), Improved Skirmish
13) Hand of The Winged Master 4:
14) Hand of The Winged Master 5:
15) Hand of The Winged Master 6: Improved Precise Shot or Bounding Assualt
16) Hand of The Winged Master 7:
17) Hand of The Winged Master 8:
18) Hand of The Winged Master 9: Draconic Toughness
19) Hand of The Winged Master 10:
20) Deep Warden 1: Track
This build has strong skills With 8+int from scout levels and 6+int from all other levels. It has Search, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen as class skills for every level except 20 which only misses out on Search and Disable Device. The build ends up with skirmish damage of 8d6 (if you move 40ft) which it can turn into fire damage using dragonfire strike in which case it does 9d6+9, you also gain +4 to AC when you move. The build presented has two combat option.
1)Ranged using Greater Manyshot after a move action to get damage at range with up to 4 attacks (generally I only make 2-3 so I can actualy hit the target)
2)Hit and Run using spring attack to move in activating skirmish making two attacks with bounding assualt and then moving back out
Books used: PHB, PHB 2, Dragon Magic, Races of Stone, Complete Adventure, Complete Scoundrel, Races of Dragon, Complete Champion, Dungeonscape, and XPH
I think he was looking for more of a melee build than a ranged build. Is there a way to make a scout an effective melee guy.
Pounce, Travel Devotion, or Dervish levels. Psi-something levels to gain Hustle would work, also. Basically, you need to be able to move and full attack for maximum effectiveness, but that's no different than a ranged based scout.
Something a little different
Race:Dwarf
Stats: Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10
Build Progression:
lvl Class Feats
1) Rogue 1: Agile Athlete
2) Rogue 2:
3) Rogue 3: Improved Initiative
4) Rogue 4:
5) Rogue 5:
6) Thief Acrobat 1:Weapon Finesse
7) Trapsmith 1:
8) Thief Acrobat 2:
9) Trapsmith 2: Two-weapon Fighting
10) Thief Acrobat 3:
11) Trapsmith 3:
12) Thief Acrobat 4: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
13) Trapsmith 4:
14) Thief Acrobat 5:
15) Trapsmith 5: Quick Reconnoiter
16) Nightsong Enforcer 1:
17) Nightsong Enforcer 2:
18) Nightsong Enforcer 3: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Nightsong Enforcer 4:
20) Nightsong Enforcer 5:
This build is modification of something I built for a RP heavy campaign awhile back it is designed to be a breaking and entering specialist. It has strong skills and is good at almost everything a rogue wants to be good at from trapfinding, to stealth, to spot/listen, and acrobatics. The down side is that it is not as good in combat as a daring outlaw build or just rogue 20, with only 14 Bab, 5d6 sneak attack and average D6 hit die. On the plus side it gets some spell casting from Trapsmith, and some really useful abilities from nightsong enforcer and thief acrobat.
Books used: PHB, Races of the Wild, Complete Adventure, Dungeonscape.
Race:Dwarf
Stats: Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10
Build Progression:
lvl Class Feats
1) Rogue 1: Agile Athlete
2) Rogue 2:
3) Rogue 3: Improved Initiative
4) Rogue 4:
5) Rogue 5:
6) Thief Acrobat 1:Weapon Finesse
7) Trapsmith 1:
8) Thief Acrobat 2:
9) Trapsmith 2: Two-weapon Fighting
10) Thief Acrobat 3:
11) Trapsmith 3:
12) Thief Acrobat 4: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
13) Trapsmith 4:
14) Thief Acrobat 5:
15) Trapsmith 5: Quick Reconnoiter
16) Nightsong Enforcer 1:
17) Nightsong Enforcer 2:
18) Nightsong Enforcer 3: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Nightsong Enforcer 4:
20) Nightsong Enforcer 5:
This build is modification of something I built for a RP heavy campaign awhile back it is designed to be a breaking and entering specialist. It has strong skills and is good at almost everything a rogue wants to be good at from trapfinding, to stealth, to spot/listen, and acrobatics. The down side is that it is not as good in combat as a daring outlaw build or just rogue 20, with only 14 Bab, 5d6 sneak attack and average D6 hit die. On the plus side it gets some spell casting from Trapsmith, and some really useful abilities from nightsong enforcer and thief acrobat.
Books used: PHB, Races of the Wild, Complete Adventure, Dungeonscape.
or three. Thanks again for all your help I have sent a link to this thread to the people who the builds are for so hopefully they will come look and offer their own suggestions or ask questions of their own.Also, we play a fairly high powered campaign where the stats are bout at +12-+14, where 18 = +4, you can not have 20's that are not modified by race. Also, we start with around 7k-10k a level in gold for items starting at about 5th any items anyone would suggest that would help these builds out a lot?