Dwarf crusader build help

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

titans4ever

Oct 02, 2013 15:00:50

We are playing in the FR northern regions.  My warblade got swallowed by a wurm (don't ask) so I am introducing a new 4th level character to the group.  All 3.5 and non updated 3.0 books are in play as long as it is not broken (lion totem barbarian).  I was wanting to run an arctic dwarf from Unearthed Arcana since we are playing in the northern regions (DM already has OKed this idea and likes it).  We are more of a battle party than roll playing out senerios and we need to be self sufficient (no true healer in the party).  The +2 to Str and Con are great since we are mainly out in the wilderness fighting but the drawbacks are a -4 to Dex and -2 to Cha.  I want to run a crusader but going dwarf takes out the human bonus feat that are in most lockdown builds on forum and the harsh -4 to Dex and -2 to Cha really reduces the amounts of AoPs from combat reflexes and lowers crusaders Cha bonuses.  

 

Starting stats are 17/17/16/15/14/13.

 

My concept for starting at level 4:

We tend to have high starting stat rolls (roll 4d6 three times with keeping dice you want and reroll others).

Str: 20 (17+2 mod+1 4th lvl), Dex: 12 (16-4 mod), Con: 19 (17+2 mod), Int:13, Wis: 15, Cha :12 (14-2 mod)

 

Feats

1) Stone Power vs power attack

3) Extra Granted Maneuver

6) Combat Reflexes

9) Stand Still

12) Robilar's Gambit

15) Defensive Sweep

18) Overwhelming Assult

 

I would follow the typical stances and maneuvers that I have seen in other builds for a lockdown type crusader so I won't relist them here.  I would also look to get items and/or tome to help improve dex for more AoPs.

 

I forgo combat expertise and improved trip since I don't have the extra feat from being human.  I am debating between power attack vs stone power to go with the delayed damage pool crusaders have.  Am I late to the party by taking combat reflexes and stand still so later than most other builds?

 

What would be the best build for me in this setting?????

Is there another crusader build that is not a lockdown type?

#2

Andarious-Rosethorn

Oct 02, 2013 18:49:39

There's always the "Heavy Crusader" but that generally relies on Elf or Half Elf (cold variant elf works really well actually). You'll want to either go off that general idea and focus on no save strikes and high yield strikes or pick a race without such a huge Dex penalty. You're shooting yourself in the foot making a combat reflexes character with -4 Dex. The race is fine, just not for the job.

#3

titans4ever

Oct 03, 2013 17:17:32

The more I look at it, the more I realize I need to pick between the two.  The race is a good fighter class character, just not built for crusaders.  The penalties are to severe in the needed stats.

 

#4

Andarious-Rosethorn

Oct 03, 2013 17:42:37

The race is fine for Crusasder, the Cha to will saves isn't a huge deal. The race is NOT fine for a Combat Reflexes controller.

#5

titans4ever

Oct 04, 2013 13:44:17

Is there another style of build that is not battlefield control for a crusader or the avenger crusader since you need to be elf to qualify?  If I stay straight crusader 20 with arctic dwarf will I become underwhelming at higher levels?  I am assuming we will go until epic levels with these characters.

 

I cannot imagine that lockdown is the only way to go with a crusader but am not really seeing anything else on the forums.

 

Is deepstone sentinel losing 5 levels of crusader?

 

#6

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 04, 2013 13:47:13

titans4ever wrote:
#7

titans4ever

Oct 08, 2013 17:52:30

Alright, looked around some more and want to know if this would be a feasable character.  I am tweeking the stormguard warrior build to gain its primary trick earlier than what was posted in the Tome of Battle for dummies thread.  I know going as an arctic dwarf that takes the -4 Dex I am really limiting my ability to feed into the stormguard warrior feat. I am starting with a dex of 12, getting a + 6 item and maybe a tome I think I will have more than enough to still use the build relatively well (just not max it out completely).  I can still get myself up to the 5 to 7 AoP per round range.

 

The original so you don't have to look it up:

Stomguard Crusader
Build Stub: Human Crusader 16 / Warblade 4 (Crusader 8 / Warblade 1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2)

Feats:
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Stand Still
3: Extra Granted Maneuver
6: Stone Power
9: Ironheart Aura
12: Stormguard Warrior
15: Robilar's Gambit
18: Defensive Sweep (PHB2)

 

My version:
Build Stub: Arctic Dwarf Crusader16 / Warblade 4 (Crusader 8 / Warblade 1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2)

Feats:
1: stand still
3: extra granted maneuver
6: combat reflexes
9: ironheart aura
12: stormguard warrior
15: robilar's gambit
18: defensive sweep or power attack?


I would follow the maneuver progression given in the original build so I won't list it here.


Changes and why
I would lose Stone Power from the feats list since I get one less overall feat for being a dwarf and this one seems the logical choice. I can see that you can easily lose 5 to hit to gain 10 HP almost every round you hold back on AoPs and you still can have a huge to hit advantage in the round from combat rhythm and channel the storm.

I was wondering if power attack would be a good level 18 feat? With all the bonuses to hit from AoPs going into combat rhythm and channel the storm, swinging a weapon two handed I could easily drop some to hit to increase the damage output for the round and still have a plenty of to hit bonuses.

 

#8

aelryinth

Oct 08, 2013 19:19:08

Power Attack is a feat you should get early. A considerable amount of your damage is going to come from it.

 

You don't want Stand Still until after you get Thicket of Blades, because you're not going to get enough AoO's to make it effective.

 

Stone Power is thematic but overall much less impressive then Power Attack. I'd probably get Power Attack, then Combat Reflexes, then Stand Still, and leave Stone Power as something for late levels, if you ever get there. THe above combo will be with you most of your career, and you'll get excellent mileage out of it. AoO's at full BAB are prime for using Power Attack with.

 

==Aelryinth

#9

titans4ever

Oct 09, 2013 9:24:39

A friend was looking at the base build and my first version and we discussed it some on need and speed to get the main trick into play and he suggested this form. The big changes are moving stand still to the end of the feat chain and moving the first level of warblade up to get ironheart aura at level 6.

My second version:

Starting stats are 17/17/16/15/14/13.
Str: 20 (17+2 mod+1 4th lvl), Dex: 12 (16-4 mod), Con: 19 (17+2 mod), Int:13, Wis: 15, Cha :12 (14-2 mod)

Build Stub: Arctic Dwarf Crusader16 / Warblade 4 (Crusader +4 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +4 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +4 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2)

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes
3: extra granted maneuver
6: ironheart aura
9: stormguard warrior
12: robilar's gambit
15: Defensive Sweep
18: stand still

Reasoning:
Breaking this build down, it comes to 3 things to function well for combat damage (not full fledge lockdown mode). You need Thicket of Blades and Robilar's Gambit to feed Stormguard Warrior's Channel the Storm and Combat Rhythm. Stand Still and defensive sweep just add to your ability to pump it up more and create a better lockdown situation.

Moving my first level of warblade to level 5 only pushed back thicket of blades one level but it will also allow me to get Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit earlier. The main trick of the build is now started at level 9 instead of 12, is fully functioning at 12 instead of 15, and only gets more dire for the person in front of me with each feat after that.

New questions:
Are we messing things up by moving the feats around the way we did?

Where do you put your ability points in this build? STR for more damage? Con to take the damage from Robilar's? Dex to allow more AoP's? I was going to go 1 to STR to make it even, 1 to CON to make it even, then the rest to DEX.

 

 

#10

aelryinth

Oct 09, 2013 15:46:48

No.

 

Stand Still is MUCH more useful at early levels then Stormguard warrior. The ability to NOT ALLOW YOUR ENEMIES TO MOVE is huge tactically. Basically, you force them to stand there and eat your full attacks if they try to run away.

 

Your biggest problem here is yuo don't have enough feats.

 

The other problem is that your #1 Stance is Thicket of Blades. That will be generating a lot of AoO's for you. It doesn't synergize with Ironheart Aura.

 

And, you DEFINITELY, 100%, No questions, want Stand Still before Defensive Sweep. Defensive Sweep punishes someone if they haven't moved. Stand Still stops them from moving. Automatic AoO's every turn are great. Defensive Sweep's high BAB req means its also designed to be a late game effect.

 

Your biggest problem is that you are feat shy.

 

Btw, isn't combat reflexes one of the feats you can pick up as a Warblade? That might solve your early problems right there. take Warblade for your early levels and pick up combat reflexes.

 

Also, Stormguard Warrior is not anywhere near as useful as it may seem. Yes, you can get monstrous stacking bonuses...if you choose to forgo AoO's. I'm sorry, but getting 4 attacks each with +16 th/dmg sounds GREAT....until you realize that you gave up 4 attacks at full BAB, which were probably going to do MUCH more then 16 damage each, to do this! IN almost all cases except when you're facing something nigh unhittable, you're better off taking your full BAB AoO when you get them, and kill the thing on its own turn, as opposed to waiting for your own turn.

 

==Aelryinth