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Dwarven defender a decent PrC?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
stoupak09
Sep 13, 2008 16:28:49 Hey all,

My question is; is the Dwarven Defender a decent PrC, and what feats go well with it? I'm planning on staying full fighter until I get to DD, but I'd like to try something different. I'm thinking the improved bull rush route, and I'd like to go huge on AC, so I'm using a shield.

Our group has to use Core books, with some small exception made by the DM on certain rulings. (I'm begging for Shock Trooper).

What do you guys think?
#2
tshern
Sep 13, 2008 17:25:22 Its main problem is that it hinders your movement. Defensive stance forces you to stay pretty much still at all times, so enemies can simply walk around you and not care. Sure, you can have high armor class, but foes have no point attacking you if they can proceed to beat your squishy allies and throw rocks at you until you die.
#3
ikildkenny
Sep 13, 2008 17:34:22 allthough it isn't easy, you can make a DD work ...

my suggestion would be to take levels in Dwarven fighter (first level substitute), favored Enemy Barb (for ranged combat style bonus feats)(posibly mathing totem for better bonus than fast movement), Ranger (two weapon combat style), dipping two levels into deepwarden and dipping into master thrower (for palm throw) and THAN getting into DD

you will fight as a Thrower with brutal throw and your con (witch improves in defensive stance) will take care of your AC
#4
tshern
Sep 13, 2008 17:38:16 Core books only.
#5
kilroo
Sep 13, 2008 18:04:39
My question is; is the Dwarven Defender a decent PrC...
Our group has to use Core books...

In that case, pretty much only after you have a flying carpet.
#6
stoupak09
Sep 14, 2008 0:47:42 Thanks for the replies guys,

Anyone got any pointers as to what feats I should take, other than the pre-reqs, if I choose to go this route?
#7
tshern
Sep 14, 2008 4:06:34 Power attack is awesome, perhaps you should give Improved trip and Combat expertise a go as well. Improved disarm is not that good, because at later levels monsters tend to rely on natural attacks instead of real weapons.
#8
stoupak09
Sep 14, 2008 9:10:41 At first level I took Weapon Focus, Battleaxe, and Power Attack. I was thinking of getting Improved bull rush, to pummel my opponents into walls, then getting shock trooper and using that to corner opponents, then activating my Dwarven defender abilities... I'm not sure if it'll work, but that's kind of the direction I was going for.

Thanks for the input Tshern (c:
#9
tshern
Sep 14, 2008 14:33:56
At first level I took Weapon Focus, Battleaxe, and Power Attack. I was thinking of getting Improved bull rush, to pummel my opponents into walls, then getting shock trooper and using that to corner opponents, then activating my Dwarven defender abilities... I'm not sure if it'll work, but that's kind of the direction I was going for.

Thanks for the input Tshern (c:

If you get access to Shocktrooper, then by all means take it.
#10
carnon
Sep 14, 2008 14:37:38 Does "Core only" include the online SRD or not? What about PHB 2?

The feat Stand Still in the psionic section of SRD is not half bad for immobile defenders. Despite being in the psionic section it's a general feat and the only prereq is Str 13, however you'll probably also want Dex 14+ (easy since you already need Dex 13 for Dodge) and Combat Reflexes if you're taking the feat. Now just look for some difficult terrain that prevents those pesky 5-foot steps and you're set.

Other than that you might want to consider reach weapons or ask your spellcaster (very politely) for the occasional enlarge person and some battlefield control to keep your opponents in place next to you.

Some feats worth checking out if you can use PHB 2 are Steadfast Determination (you already have the prereq Endurance and you should have very high Con), Brutal Strike (dazed opponents don't move away) and Defensive Sweep (for the later levels, if you can keep your opponents from moving).
#11
stoupak09
Sep 14, 2008 21:50:40 Core is core (c:

The DM is willing to make rulings on certain things that he feels wont overpower the game.
#12
carnivore
Sep 15, 2008 5:32:59 heres a fun trick to use with Dwarven Defender:

have your Wizard cast the Spell:

Floating Disk
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: 3-ft.-diameter disk of force
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you. The disk is 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch deep at its center. It can hold 100 pounds of weight per caster level. (If used to transport a liquid, its capacity is 2 gallons.) The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times and remains level. It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round. If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you. The disk winks out of existence when the spell duration expires. The disk also winks out if you move beyond range or try to take the disk more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it. When the disk winks out, whatever it was supporting falls to the surface beneath it.

Material Component: A drop of mercury.

then have your DD ride it.... that way he will always be able to initiate his stance to gain the class Benifits without Moving(from the Disk)... but at the same time he will be mobile and always near the one he needs to protect(Wizard/Sorc)... it will last all day and is a great spell to know anyway... and allows the DD to move as fast as the Wizard can move(even though he has a 20' move to begin with)

:D
#13
carnon
Sep 15, 2008 11:14:18
Core is core (c:

There's plenty of different flavours of core out there, no idea which one your group is using. Probably the most typical "core only" for players is "All of PHB, most of DMG, bits of MM (including polymorph forms and animal companions, excluding races and feats)" which isn't exactly the same as 100% core. Many groups consider SRD and PHB/DMG 2 also core.

That said, if you can't use Stand Still you might still want to consider Combat Reflexes - you can't keep stop them but at least you can hit them one last time before they move away, combined with Improved Trip it almost does the job.

As a PrC the DD blows unless you can find a way of moving without moving (carpets and disks) or keeping your opponents under control (ranged attacks, stand still, disabling attacks).
#14
stoupak09
Sep 15, 2008 14:20:50
heres a fun trick to use with Dwarven Defender:

have your Wizard cast... Floating Disk

then have your DD ride it.... that way he will always be able to initiate his stance to gain the class Benifits without Moving(from the Disk)... but at the same time he will be mobile and always near the one he needs to protect(Wizard/Sorc)... it will last all day and is a great spell to know anyway... and allows the DD to move as fast as the Wizard can move(even though he has a 20' move to begin with)

:D

That is freaken awesome, thanks alot man! HAHA

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stoupak09 Sep 13, 2008 16:28:49	Hey all, My question is; is the Dwarven Defender a decent PrC, and what feats go well with it? I'm planning on staying full fighter until I get to DD, but I'd like to try something different. I'm thinking the improved bull rush route, and I'd like to go huge on AC, so I'm using a shield. Our group has to use Core books, with some small exception made by the DM on certain rulings. (I'm begging for Shock Trooper). What do you guys think?
#2 tshern Sep 13, 2008 17:25:22	Its main problem is that it hinders your movement. Defensive stance forces you to stay pretty much still at all times, so enemies can simply walk around you and not care. Sure, you can have high armor class, but foes have no point attacking you if they can proceed to beat your squishy allies and throw rocks at you until you die.
#3 ikildkenny Sep 13, 2008 17:34:22	allthough it isn't easy, you can make a DD work ... my suggestion would be to take levels in Dwarven fighter (first level substitute), favored Enemy Barb (for ranged combat style bonus feats)(posibly mathing totem for better bonus than fast movement), Ranger (two weapon combat style), dipping two levels into deepwarden and dipping into master thrower (for palm throw) and THAN getting into DD you will fight as a Thrower with brutal throw and your con (witch improves in defensive stance) will take care of your AC
#4 tshern Sep 13, 2008 17:38:16	Core books only.
#5 kilroo Sep 13, 2008 18:04:39	My question is; is the Dwarven Defender a decent PrC... Our group has to use Core books... In that case, pretty much only after you have a flying carpet.
#6 stoupak09 Sep 14, 2008 0:47:42	Thanks for the replies guys, Anyone got any pointers as to what feats I should take, other than the pre-reqs, if I choose to go this route?
#7 tshern Sep 14, 2008 4:06:34	Power attack is awesome, perhaps you should give Improved trip and Combat expertise a go as well. Improved disarm is not that good, because at later levels monsters tend to rely on natural attacks instead of real weapons.
#8 stoupak09 Sep 14, 2008 9:10:41	At first level I took Weapon Focus, Battleaxe, and Power Attack. I was thinking of getting Improved bull rush, to pummel my opponents into walls, then getting shock trooper and using that to corner opponents, then activating my Dwarven defender abilities... I'm not sure if it'll work, but that's kind of the direction I was going for. Thanks for the input Tshern (c:
#9 tshern Sep 14, 2008 14:33:56	At first level I took Weapon Focus, Battleaxe, and Power Attack. I was thinking of getting Improved bull rush, to pummel my opponents into walls, then getting shock trooper and using that to corner opponents, then activating my Dwarven defender abilities... I'm not sure if it'll work, but that's kind of the direction I was going for. Thanks for the input Tshern (c: If you get access to Shocktrooper, then by all means take it.
#10 carnon Sep 14, 2008 14:37:38	Does "Core only" include the online SRD or not? What about PHB 2? The feat Stand Still in the psionic section of SRD is not half bad for immobile defenders. Despite being in the psionic section it's a general feat and the only prereq is Str 13, however you'll probably also want Dex 14+ (easy since you already need Dex 13 for Dodge) and Combat Reflexes if you're taking the feat. Now just look for some difficult terrain that prevents those pesky 5-foot steps and you're set. Other than that you might want to consider reach weapons or ask your spellcaster (very politely) for the occasional enlarge person and some battlefield control to keep your opponents in place next to you. Some feats worth checking out if you can use PHB 2 are Steadfast Determination (you already have the prereq Endurance and you should have very high Con), Brutal Strike (dazed opponents don't move away) and Defensive Sweep (for the later levels, if you can keep your opponents from moving).
#11 stoupak09 Sep 14, 2008 21:50:40	Core is core (c: The DM is willing to make rulings on certain things that he feels wont overpower the game.
#12 carnivore Sep 15, 2008 5:32:59	heres a fun trick to use with Dwarven Defender: have your Wizard cast the Spell: Floating Disk Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: 3-ft.-diameter disk of force Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you. The disk is 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch deep at its center. It can hold 100 pounds of weight per caster level. (If used to transport a liquid, its capacity is 2 gallons.) The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times and remains level. It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round. If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you. The disk winks out of existence when the spell duration expires. The disk also winks out if you move beyond range or try to take the disk more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it. When the disk winks out, whatever it was supporting falls to the surface beneath it. Material Component: A drop of mercury. then have your DD ride it.... that way he will always be able to initiate his stance to gain the class Benifits without Moving(from the Disk)... but at the same time he will be mobile and always near the one he needs to protect(Wizard/Sorc)... it will last all day and is a great spell to know anyway... and allows the DD to move as fast as the Wizard can move(even though he has a 20' move to begin with) :D
#13 carnon Sep 15, 2008 11:14:18	Core is core (c: There's plenty of different flavours of core out there, no idea which one your group is using. Probably the most typical "core only" for players is "All of PHB, most of DMG, bits of MM (including polymorph forms and animal companions, excluding races and feats)" which isn't exactly the same as 100% core. Many groups consider SRD and PHB/DMG 2 also core. That said, if you can't use Stand Still you might still want to consider Combat Reflexes - you can't keep stop them but at least you can hit them one last time before they move away, combined with Improved Trip it almost does the job. As a PrC the DD blows unless you can find a way of moving without moving (carpets and disks) or keeping your opponents under control (ranged attacks, stand still, disabling attacks).
#14 stoupak09 Sep 15, 2008 14:20:50	heres a fun trick to use with Dwarven Defender: have your Wizard cast... Floating Disk then have your DD ride it.... that way he will always be able to initiate his stance to gain the class Benifits without Moving(from the Disk)... but at the same time he will be mobile and always near the one he needs to protect(Wizard/Sorc)... it will last all day and is a great spell to know anyway... and allows the DD to move as fast as the Wizard can move(even though he has a 20' move to begin with) :D That is freaken awesome, thanks alot man! HAHA