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Dwarven Gish

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
falrin
Aug 16, 2008 21:24:05 Limitations:

Spells: Core Only
PrC: Only 1 (no dipping)
Books: All core (&II) & complete series

What I want:

Power LvL is quit low. I want a caster who can hold his own in combat. Starting with some Battlefield Control (ex: Solid fog) or other Mass Battle shaper (ex: slow). Keeping out of straight melee with reach & trip (And a (summoned) meatshield in between). If necesary I'd like to lay some smack down with a power Attacking Quickened True Strike.

Party:
Fighter type
Archer Ranger
Barbarian type
and me

We keep away from heavy casting and the DM knows this.

BUILD

Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 7

1 Improved Initiative
1(F) Power Attack
3 Practiced Spellcaste
6(W) Extend Spell (Maybe I should go for Craft Wand)
6 Combat Expertise
7(EK) Improved Trip
9 Improved Thougness
12 Quicken Spell

Using Glaive & Heavy Flail as major weapons.

Spells

Mage Armour & Shield & Protection from Evil (Prolly a wand for last two)

Greater Invisibility & Mirror Image (Invisibility will synergize nice with Enlarge & Tripping)

Heroism & Haste (For some Party Lovin)

True Strike

Solid Fog

Grease (nice for Tripping)

Enlarge (Tripping again, prolly a wand)

Overland Flight (Good in Invisibility Enlarge Tripping combo)
#2
woodenbandman
Aug 17, 2008 9:43:36 you know you might be better off with abjurant champion, which has only 5 levels, but lets you add your class level to the bonuses granted by mage armor and shield, which gives you +10 AC. The trade is essentially +10 AC for a few points of BAB, and there are ways to offset that. Put that into consideration. Also I believe you regain a spellcasting level over Eldritch Knight.

As a Gish I would argue that your buffs are the most important things you have, and looking at core there are some great 9th level spells, like Shapechange, prismatic sphere, etc that you'll want to cast as often as possible. However, I'm not sure how high you want your spellcasting progression to go, and you might actually be better off with eldritch knight, which gives you much better BAB over all.
#3
bergtann
Aug 17, 2008 10:02:18 Abjurant Champion is full-BaB. But the ability does not work with Mage Armor, thats a conjuration. Despite what the book says, Sage and everyone has confirmed that.

Anyway, the problem is the "only one PrC" limitation. With your book selection, that makes it either Duskblade 20 with some spells known enhancers (With your book selection Mage of the Arcane Order is probably best for that. But I am unsure how the "no dipping" part of your houserules work. Too many levels will ruin your BaB) or Eldrich Knight. Not much to add beyond that.
#4
surreal
Aug 17, 2008 11:43:36 Are you allowed to take a second PrC if you finish the first one?
#5
falrin
Aug 17, 2008 12:31:37 Yes, I know AC is superior, but to answer the last question: I don't know.

I'll ask my DM.

Maybe I'll go more

2 Fighter/ 6 Wizard/ 5 AC/ 2EK
2 Paladin/ 6 Sorceror/ 5 AC/ EK

I'm probably not allowed to to the standard

1 Fighter/4 Wizard/1Spellsword/5AC/...EK

To bad/
#6
dawnmor
Aug 17, 2008 14:16:38 Hmmmmm, I would go Paladin Sorcerer. See if your allowed the Saint template, Maybe VOP from BoED?

See if Tome of Battle is allowed, that book is your friend.

If not, then go Dwarf, Rune smith *Races of stone* cast spells in armor and their your set.
#7
rabidpirateman
Aug 17, 2008 17:57:08 If only one PrC, Duskblade 16/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 would be pretty good. 18 BAB and greatly expands your spell list.
#8
falrin
Aug 18, 2008 14:18:42 Human
2 Paladin/6 Sorceror/5 AC/ going? 1 Sorc & Into sacred exorsit maybe.

Feats

1 Power Attack
1 Improved Initiative
3 Combat Casting
6 Practiced Spellcaster
9 Arcane Strike
12 Improved thougness

Spells

5
Shield
Enlarge Person
Grease
True Strike
Silent Image

5
Resist Energy
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Darkvision
False Life

4
Heroism
Haste
Vampiric Touch
Circle Vs Evil (No cleric around)

3
Dimension Door
Solid Fog
Gretaer Invisibility

2
Overland Fly
Cone of Cold
#9
eldariel
Aug 18, 2008 21:13:15 Paladin/Sorcerer-base seems like a spectacularly bad idea for a Dwarf, seeing that they have the racial Cha-penalty and save-bonus (which in turn makes Divine Grace fairly unnecessary). I suggest:

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9

18th level casting
17 BAB

with decent playability all the way. Don't forget to trade Scribe Scroll for a Fighter-bonus as per Unearthed Arcana. Also, consider Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion), especially since you're apparently the prime Arcane Caster and thus it befalls you to detect invisibles, ask Gods for directions and so on. Spontaneous Divination really helps with that.

Then you'd get to cast Greater Magic Weapons on everyone's weapons (remember to take Practiced Spellcaster), all the Fly and all that. You'll probably be a very necessary party member as time goes on. For feats, I suggest:

1. Extend Spell
F. Power Attack
W. Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative or whatever
3. Combat Casting
6. Practiced Spellcaster
9. Arcane Strike
EK. Fighter-feat, metamagic, crafting, whatever
12. Quicken Spell

In fact, I'd probably pick some Crafting since your party could really use someone who can make their toys for them (provided that you've got enough downtime to go work).
#10
falrin
Aug 24, 2008 19:16:46 How does F1/W5 gets you AC?

I'm asking for a nice

1F /5W /2 EK/ 5 AC/ (going further EK)
But that's still pending.

My group Really frowns upon Powergaming, or what they see as so.
#11
littlekid
Aug 25, 2008 0:11:14 Metamagic rods will be your friend if you go with a gish, especially a rod of chain spell. Mage armor/shield/greater magic weapon/fly are all really good for everyone.
#12
robbypants
Aug 25, 2008 8:17:45 I didn't see Unearthed Arcana on your list of approved books. If the DM allows any variant classes from there, Battle Sorcerer could be an option if you're limited to one PrC.

A Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 ends up with 20 caster levels and +16 BAB. The only downside is an even tighter restriction on the sorcerer spells known/spells per day. Also, with Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster, you can cast in mithril fullplate.

Another alternative is Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 13/Abjurant Champion 5, which gives you Cha bonus to saves, at the cost of two caster levels. Since you'd already be a battle sorcerer, the gains from addind paladin drop substantially.

Also, if you go this route, see if you can be a gold dwarf (Dex penalty instead of Cha penalty).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 falrin Aug 16, 2008 21:24:05	Limitations: Spells: Core Only PrC: Only 1 (no dipping) Books: All core (&II) & complete series What I want: Power LvL is quit low. I want a caster who can hold his own in combat. Starting with some Battlefield Control (ex: Solid fog) or other Mass Battle shaper (ex: slow). Keeping out of straight melee with reach & trip (And a (summoned) meatshield in between). If necesary I'd like to lay some smack down with a power Attacking Quickened True Strike. Party: Fighter type Archer Ranger Barbarian type and me We keep away from heavy casting and the DM knows this. BUILD Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 7 1 Improved Initiative 1(F) Power Attack 3 Practiced Spellcaste 6(W) Extend Spell (Maybe I should go for Craft Wand) 6 Combat Expertise 7(EK) Improved Trip 9 Improved Thougness 12 Quicken Spell Using Glaive & Heavy Flail as major weapons. Spells Mage Armour & Shield & Protection from Evil (Prolly a wand for last two) Greater Invisibility & Mirror Image (Invisibility will synergize nice with Enlarge & Tripping) Heroism & Haste (For some Party Lovin) True Strike Solid Fog Grease (nice for Tripping) Enlarge (Tripping again, prolly a wand) Overland Flight (Good in Invisibility Enlarge Tripping combo)
#2 woodenbandman Aug 17, 2008 9:43:36	you know you might be better off with abjurant champion, which has only 5 levels, but lets you add your class level to the bonuses granted by mage armor and shield, which gives you +10 AC. The trade is essentially +10 AC for a few points of BAB, and there are ways to offset that. Put that into consideration. Also I believe you regain a spellcasting level over Eldritch Knight. As a Gish I would argue that your buffs are the most important things you have, and looking at core there are some great 9th level spells, like Shapechange, prismatic sphere, etc that you'll want to cast as often as possible. However, I'm not sure how high you want your spellcasting progression to go, and you might actually be better off with eldritch knight, which gives you much better BAB over all.
#3 bergtann Aug 17, 2008 10:02:18	Abjurant Champion is full-BaB. But the ability does not work with Mage Armor, thats a conjuration. Despite what the book says, Sage and everyone has confirmed that. Anyway, the problem is the "only one PrC" limitation. With your book selection, that makes it either Duskblade 20 with some spells known enhancers (With your book selection Mage of the Arcane Order is probably best for that. But I am unsure how the "no dipping" part of your houserules work. Too many levels will ruin your BaB) or Eldrich Knight. Not much to add beyond that.
#4 surreal Aug 17, 2008 11:43:36	Are you allowed to take a second PrC if you finish the first one?
#5 falrin Aug 17, 2008 12:31:37	Yes, I know AC is superior, but to answer the last question: I don't know. I'll ask my DM. Maybe I'll go more 2 Fighter/ 6 Wizard/ 5 AC/ 2EK 2 Paladin/ 6 Sorceror/ 5 AC/ EK I'm probably not allowed to to the standard 1 Fighter/4 Wizard/1Spellsword/5AC/...EK To bad/
#6 dawnmor Aug 17, 2008 14:16:38	Hmmmmm, I would go Paladin Sorcerer. See if your allowed the Saint template, Maybe VOP from BoED? See if Tome of Battle is allowed, that book is your friend. If not, then go Dwarf, Rune smith Races of stone cast spells in armor and their your set.
#7 rabidpirateman Aug 17, 2008 17:57:08	If only one PrC, Duskblade 16/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 would be pretty good. 18 BAB and greatly expands your spell list.
#8 falrin Aug 18, 2008 14:18:42	Human 2 Paladin/6 Sorceror/5 AC/ going? 1 Sorc & Into sacred exorsit maybe. Feats 1 Power Attack 1 Improved Initiative 3 Combat Casting 6 Practiced Spellcaster 9 Arcane Strike 12 Improved thougness Spells 5 Shield Enlarge Person Grease True Strike Silent Image 5 Resist Energy Glitterdust Mirror Image Darkvision False Life 4 Heroism Haste Vampiric Touch Circle Vs Evil (No cleric around) 3 Dimension Door Solid Fog Gretaer Invisibility 2 Overland Fly Cone of Cold
#9 eldariel Aug 18, 2008 21:13:15	Paladin/Sorcerer-base seems like a spectacularly bad idea for a Dwarf, seeing that they have the racial Cha-penalty and save-bonus (which in turn makes Divine Grace fairly unnecessary). I suggest: Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9 18th level casting 17 BAB with decent playability all the way. Don't forget to trade Scribe Scroll for a Fighter-bonus as per Unearthed Arcana. Also, consider Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion), especially since you're apparently the prime Arcane Caster and thus it befalls you to detect invisibles, ask Gods for directions and so on. Spontaneous Divination really helps with that. Then you'd get to cast Greater Magic Weapons on everyone's weapons (remember to take Practiced Spellcaster), all the Fly and all that. You'll probably be a very necessary party member as time goes on. For feats, I suggest: 1. Extend Spell F. Power Attack W. Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative or whatever 3. Combat Casting 6. Practiced Spellcaster 9. Arcane Strike EK. Fighter-feat, metamagic, crafting, whatever 12. Quicken Spell In fact, I'd probably pick some Crafting since your party could really use someone who can make their toys for them (provided that you've got enough downtime to go work).
#10 falrin Aug 24, 2008 19:16:46	How does F1/W5 gets you AC? I'm asking for a nice 1F /5W /2 EK/ 5 AC/ (going further EK) But that's still pending. My group Really frowns upon Powergaming, or what they see as so.
#11 littlekid Aug 25, 2008 0:11:14	Metamagic rods will be your friend if you go with a gish, especially a rod of chain spell. Mage armor/shield/greater magic weapon/fly are all really good for everyone.
#12 robbypants Aug 25, 2008 8:17:45	I didn't see Unearthed Arcana on your list of approved books. If the DM allows any variant classes from there, Battle Sorcerer could be an option if you're limited to one PrC. A Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 ends up with 20 caster levels and +16 BAB. The only downside is an even tighter restriction on the sorcerer spells known/spells per day. Also, with Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster, you can cast in mithril fullplate. Another alternative is Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 13/Abjurant Champion 5, which gives you Cha bonus to saves, at the cost of two caster levels. Since you'd already be a battle sorcerer, the gains from addind paladin drop substantially. Also, if you go this route, see if you can be a gold dwarf (Dex penalty instead of Cha penalty).