Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedhaed Jan 27, 2014 11:00:33	Can Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell) allow you to meet the prerequisites for PrCs earlier than usual? Can a Cleric use DMM (Heighten) to get into Divine Disciple by level 6 as per RAW?
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 27, 2014 11:51:03	I'm not sure that DMM:Heighten can be used this way, but similar effects, such as the Naenkrau illumian power word and the Sanctum Spell feat, probably can - with differing levels of argument.   This is ultimately a question for your DM, not for the boards.
#3 daedhaed Jan 27, 2014 12:01:35	I'm working on making an Archivist with 10 levels in Dweomerkeeper at level 20 with 20 caster levels in Archivist and so far the best I can do is Archivist 9/ Bloodline 1/ Contemplative 1/ Dweomerkeeper 10. I was hoping for something like Archivist 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Divine Disciple 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10. That way I get to be an outsider and make good use of the Transormation Domain. I was using the feats Magical Training for the Arcane requirement and Planar Touchstone Catologues of Enlightenment DSCS Sun domain for the ability to turn undead. A human could pull it off without flaws and an elf could with 1 flaw. Unless DM ruled that Illumian counts as human it's much more difficult.
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 27, 2014 12:08:12	It depends on what your DM thinks you need to have in order to meet the casting requirement. I personally base the ability to cast spells of a certain level on the slots used (so "able to cast 2nd-level spells" means that you need to have 2nd-level spell slots) because you always have that.  When DMing, I don't allow that requirement to be met by methods that rely on the end result of the spellcasting because that can change.  As I see it, if you're relying on the ability for the final spell to be of the required level, you'd fail to meet the prestige class requirements whenever you couldn't cast the spell and produce that end result for any reason (like running out of turning attempts, or expending all your prepared spells of the necessary level). But it's not something definitely answered in an official source as far as I'm aware.
#5 daedhaed Jan 27, 2014 12:25:35	I just feel that it's a little unfair that a Single class cleric can have 10 levels in Dweomerkeeper by 15th level but a prestiged Archivist can't until 21st level without using bloodlines or early entry cheese. And why does Divine Disciple even require 4th level spells? Seems rediculous to me.
#6 daedhaed Jan 27, 2014 12:39:06	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 27, 2014 12:53:32	daedhaed wrote:
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 27, 2014 13:12:09	If you're replacing "Able to cast 4th level spells" with "Must have 4th level spell slots", the second makes no reference as to whether those slots are open, filled with a prepared spell, or expended. Yet another reason why it's much more elegant than simply "able to cast".   Also, it's hardly optimal, but Archivist 3 / cleric [Magic / X] 1 / wizard 1 / dwoemerkeeper 10 is level 15 and has all 10 levels of dwoemerkeeper. (It also doesn't need to spend a feat on item creation, since it gets Scribe Scroll for free.) A more optimal approach would involve Magical Training (a Faerun regional feat, no less) in place of the wizard level; there's almost certainly a way of cheesing a particular domain into the archivist as well, but since I don't care for divine magic (too cheesy) I don't know for sure. (This approach might require your 6th level feat; if it does, you get Dwoemerkeeper 10 at 16th instead of 15th.) I have no idea why you would think you can't get 10 levels of dwoemerkeeper on an archivist build.
#9 daedhaed Jan 27, 2014 15:07:17	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#10 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 27, 2014 15:18:29	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 27, 2014 17:26:10	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 27, 2014 17:59:00	daedhaed wrote:
#13 Caker Jan 27, 2014 18:59:16	I think it has to do with the abiguity of the word able in the english language. Do they mean able as in you have the skills required to do so, but not the resources? Or, do they mean able in the sense that you currently have the tools to perform the task. Both are right, and so that is where the whole argument comes in. Ultimately it is up to the DM.
(Reply to #12) daedhaed	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#15 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 27, 2014 21:52:47	daedhaed wrote:
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 27, 2014 23:39:57	daedhaed wrote:
#17 daedhaed Jan 28, 2014 8:52:23	I guess I'll just have to use contemplative with a bloodline level in there somewhere (to get 13 max ranks at lvl 9) so I can grab dweomerkeeper 10 by 20th level with no loss of caster levels. That's RAW legal without cheese. My DM said no lowering PrC requirements, no new ones and no cheesy early entry BS either so this is the only way.
#18 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 28, 2014 13:51:25	So using bloodlines to advance your max rank (and caster level) isn't early-entry cheese? Particularly because bloodlines do not work the way most people think they do, and you can get all three levels of a major bloodline for a total cost of 3000xp if you're willing to start a couple levels behind everyone?     EDIT: I'm with Slagger on the ScM. There are lower-level shadow spells (i.e. shadowcraft bards use Dark Way to qualify), but many were from quite obscure sources around the time Races of Stone was printed, and even today none of them emulate other spells the way shadow conjuration does.
#19 daedhaed Jan 28, 2014 19:15:52	Im just gonna take a minor bloodline and grab 1 level in it as my fist level. Not too cheesy.