Early entry theurge - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Aug 15, 2009 18:45:22	Another poster put this one up - I'm copying it here for possible better response: Just a question, is there an early entry way to get a Wiz3/Archivist 1 into MT? as this would of course have some nice INT synergy :-) The Precocious Apprentice trick seems to work only for pushing arcane casters. From the book... Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training. Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st. Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character so, how to get a second level divine spell with one level of archivist...?
#2 flawless_p Aug 16, 2009 15:25:30	I know that Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician are commonly used to gain early entry into a prestige class but I can't imagine any dm actually allowing it, as it is clearly not RAI. But if your dm lets you get away with it I would check out the Mystic Theurge Handbook it has serveral early entry methods.
#3 j2.504 Aug 16, 2009 16:33:28	I know that Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician are commonly used to gain early entry into a prestige class but I can't imagine any dm actually allowing it, as it is clearly not RAI. But if your dm lets you get away with it I would check out the Mystic Theurge Handbook it has serveral early entry methods. Thanks for the tips. The original poster had placed this question at the end of the Mystic Theurge Handbook. He was having problems with early entry on the Cleric side specifically (most early entry tricks focus on the Arcane side). I thought this would be a good place to spell out the Cleric side early entries, and I wouldn't mind seeing the Divine entry ideas myself. Southern Magician I think was pretty much ruled out by WoTC for good cause. Precocious Apprentice was ruled out by Sage, but his reasoning wasn't complete, and it wasn't combined with Heighten. I can't comment on the Dragon Magazine Feat, because I don't have access to the mag. On a personal note, I don't like the conditional early entry methods like sanctum and earth spell, and would not allow them. But I don't mind Precocious Apprentice + Heighten; Versatile Caster; or Illumian method as those aren't conditional, and if walked through step-by-step are fairly RAW. RAI? Probably as RAI as any loophole folks find in the rules based on books published at different times by different authors. Illumian, on the other hand, is pretty much 100% solid and may actually have been RAI and RAW. Here's one that may work fine with Cleric, but I'd have to look closely - haven't looked at it from the Cleric side: Illumian improved sigil trick probably works for cleric.
#4 tshern Aug 16, 2009 16:44:34	Could you not jump in with Sanctum spell?
#5 j2.504 Aug 16, 2009 16:57:49	Could you not jump in with Sanctum spell? All suggestions welcome. I personally don't like Sanctum or Earth spell, due to their conditionality. That's my preference, but I don't allow temporary abilities to qualify you for a prc (because when the temporary situation expires by moving out of the area, if the spell is dispelled, etc., you no longer qualify for the prestige class). I use this same reasoning to disallow the magical location benefits of earning a feat that expires after a period of time - it's not really a feat, but rather a temporary feat that you will no longer have. Using Sanctum or the Earth spell trick to qualify for prc's is similar to qualifying for a prc using a magic item. Here's another one I forgot about that's pretty sure fire, that I was recently made aware of: There's a feat in Heroes of Horror that requires you to have taint to gain access to it. It grants the appropriate spell(s) and slot(s). May require Heighten, but I don't remember for sure. It's probably the most solid behind illumian if you use taint in your campaign. I think it may work for divine, but I don't remember for sure.
#6 newbie123 Aug 18, 2009 9:41:12	ok, thanks a lot J2 for moving my request into the right tread to get some attention. I will have a look into this sanctum method later the day

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

j2.504

Aug 15, 2009 18:45:22

Another poster put this one up - I'm copying it here for possible better response:

Just a question,

is there an early entry way to get a

Wiz3/Archivist 1 into MT?

as this would of course have some nice INT synergy :-)

The Precocious Apprentice trick seems to work only for pushing arcane casters.

From the book...

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the
normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster
level 1st.
Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic
you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that
must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your
level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you
must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully
cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your
caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level,
even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal
circumstances.
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the
benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot,
which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of
2nd level or lower as you normally would.
Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character

so, how to get a second level divine spell with one level of archivist...?

flawless_p

Aug 16, 2009 15:25:30

I know that Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician are commonly used to gain early entry into a prestige class but I can't imagine any dm actually allowing it, as it is clearly not RAI.

But if your dm lets you get away with it I would check out the Mystic Theurge Handbook it has serveral early entry methods.

j2.504

Aug 16, 2009 16:33:28

I know that Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician are commonly used to gain early entry into a prestige class but I can't imagine any dm actually allowing it, as it is clearly not RAI.

But if your dm lets you get away with it I would check out the Mystic Theurge Handbook it has serveral early entry methods.

Thanks for the tips. The original poster had placed this question at the end of the Mystic Theurge Handbook. He was having problems with early entry on the Cleric side specifically (most early entry tricks focus on the Arcane side). I thought this would be a good place to spell out the Cleric side early entries, and I wouldn't mind seeing the Divine entry ideas myself.

Southern Magician I think was pretty much ruled out by WoTC for good cause. Precocious Apprentice was ruled out by Sage, but his reasoning wasn't complete, and it wasn't combined with Heighten. I can't comment on the Dragon Magazine Feat, because I don't have access to the mag.

On a personal note, I don't like the conditional early entry methods like sanctum and earth spell, and would not allow them. But I don't mind Precocious Apprentice + Heighten; Versatile Caster; or Illumian method as those aren't conditional, and if walked through step-by-step are fairly RAW. RAI? Probably as RAI as any loophole folks find in the rules based on books published at different times by different authors. Illumian, on the other hand, is pretty much 100% solid and may actually have been RAI and RAW.

Here's one that may work fine with Cleric, but I'd have to look closely - haven't looked at it from the Cleric side:
Illumian improved sigil trick probably works for cleric.

tshern

Aug 16, 2009 16:44:34

Could you not jump in with Sanctum spell?

j2.504

Aug 16, 2009 16:57:49

Could you not jump in with Sanctum spell?

All suggestions welcome.

I personally don't like Sanctum or Earth spell, due to their conditionality. That's my preference, but I don't allow temporary abilities to qualify you for a prc (because when the temporary situation expires by moving out of the area, if the spell is dispelled, etc., you no longer qualify for the prestige class). I use this same reasoning to disallow the magical location benefits of earning a feat that expires after a period of time - it's not really a feat, but rather a temporary feat that you will no longer have. Using Sanctum or the Earth spell trick to qualify for prc's is similar to qualifying for a prc using a magic item.

Here's another one I forgot about that's pretty sure fire, that I was recently made aware of: There's a feat in Heroes of Horror that requires you to have taint to gain access to it. It grants the appropriate spell(s) and slot(s). May require Heighten, but I don't remember for sure. It's probably the most solid behind illumian if you use taint in your campaign. I think it may work for divine, but I don't remember for sure.

newbie123

Aug 18, 2009 9:41:12

ok, thanks a lot J2 for moving my request into the right tread to get some attention. I will have a look into this sanctum method later the day