I believe there are some legal methods of early entry with Sorcereror, but so far I'm only 100% convinced on one method of early entry with Wizard:
Illumian race with Improved Sigil: Krau feat.
This essentially allows you to "heighten" a couple of 1st level spells into second level (in all ways treated as a 2nd level spell). Very similar to the Heighten Metamagic feat, however, the spells are no more difficult to cast than a 1st level spell. Additionally, if you read the whole feat in detail (particularly the section regarding changing your picks on the spells when you gain a level), everything lends itself toward you being able to cast 1st level Arcane spells as 2nd Arcane level spells, even though you are not currently capable of otherwise casting 2nd level Arcane spells.
Heighten by itself is not possible due to the heightened spell being cast in the same way as a second level spell. My understanding is this means you cannot heighten a spell beyond your max level of spell that you can cast.
I am definitely interested in other options, or arguements questioning the validity of this or other early entry methods.
1) Southern Magician: I don't have own the book, so I can't argue this one. Ask Wizards shot this down. Also, doesn't the feat state something along the lines that the actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation?
2) The Precocious Apprentice Method: This has 3 potential drawbacks: A) RAW it states something along the lines of the Arcane side losing it's ability to use the granted 2nd level spell slot once you reach 2nd level spell casting ability on the Divine side. The slot is still there, but unusable. RAI, I don't believe this to be the case. B) Sage/FAQ shot down this feat as early entry due to it being a chance to cast a 2nd level spell, rather than inherant ability. This could be argued, because all spells are essentially situationally cast with a chance of failure through one means or another (ASF, concentration fail, etc.).
There is also some argument over the term "spells" (vs. spell) in the MT entry requirements. This is fairly easily shot down RAI, because it would require higher entry (beyond WIz 3, CL3) in many prc's requireing spells vs. spell. Essentially if you have the slot available, and can fill it with spells, you meet the requirement.
So, typically, it looks like:
Wizard (or Wu Jen) 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge x, which needs only Heighten Spell as an Illumian with the Naenhoon sigils.
I agree w/ you that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for this (and isn't useful in double-casting theurgic builds, although it is useful for casting / non-casting theurgic PrCs).
Southern Magician allows one to cast an arcane spell as divine, essentially. Its a weird one. Assuming it does work, the character still needs a level of divine casting to make it worthwhile, so I don't think its that useful.
Want to see something neat?
Sorcerer (or Dread Necromancer or Warmage or Beguiler, but not Bard) 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge x is a legal entry :D. One needs Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster (and probably Human, but anything with flaws).
The trick here is that Versatile Spellcaster doesn't require you to use it to cast spells from the same list, and can be used for metamagics, so you can burn two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell (thanks to Heighten), from either side. What's innovative about it is that even though the caster is behind an entire level on the spontaneous arcane casting side (thus 2 behind a Wizard), Versatile Spellcaster gives the theurge really good options to cast the maximum number of high level spells possible (thus, 2 behind doesn't feel that bad when the character can cast spells one level lower than a Wizard, but like a bajillion of them per day). I highly recomend using Versatile Spellcaster on every theurge-build possible (and its even better on the Vigilante PrC).
Typically, we don't use the Improved Sigil: Krau feat but rather the Naenhoon combination of Illumian sigils. (To be honest, I'm not sure where the Imp Sigil: Krau feat entry came from.)
So, typically, it looks like:
Wizard (or Wu Jen) 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge x, which needs only Heighten Spell as an Illumian with the Naenhoon sigils.
I agree w/ you that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for this (and isn't useful in double-casting theurgic builds, although it is useful for casting / non-casting theurgic PrCs).
Southern Magician allows one to cast an arcane spell as divine, essentially. Its a weird one. Assuming it does work, the character still needs a level of divine casting to make it worthwhile, so I don't think its that useful.
Want to see something neat?
Sorcerer (or Dread Necromancer or Warmage or Beguiler, but not Bard) 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge x is a legal entry :D. One needs Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster (and probably Human, but anything with flaws).
The trick here is that Versatile Spellcaster doesn't require you to use it to cast spells from the same list, and can be used for metamagics, so you can burn two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell (thanks to Heighten), from either side. What's innovative about it is that even though the caster is behind an entire level on the spontaneous arcane casting side (thus 2 behind a Wizard), Versatile Spellcaster gives the theurge really good options to cast the maximum number of high level spells possible (thus, 2 behind doesn't feel that bad when the character can cast spells one level lower than a Wizard, but like a bajillion of them per day). I highly recomend using Versatile Spellcaster on every theurge-build possible (and its even better on the Vigilante PrC).
Actually I'm not sure whether Precocious apprentice does/does not work. It's iffy. I'd say it's very close to workable, and is really a DM call not establihed to denied within the rules. I'd probably say RAI it works, but RAW it doesn't.
I hadn't remembered the Naenhoon combination of Illumian sigils you mentioned. Unforunately, my call would be that it doesn't work, 'tho it is borderline - definitely one to look at more deeply. The reason being that it uses Heighten. And heighten doesn't allow you to cast a spell of higher level than you would otherwise be able to cast. The Naenhoon description does say something about the spell not being raised above normal casting level (1st), but I believe it's stating that about the level cost of applying the metamagic - not the final spell level. So here's the way I see it:
1) Spell is treated as a 1st level spell, using 1 turn attempt to add heighten to the spell. The spell would be cast in the 1st level spell slot and you would not be paying any extra metamagic slot costs (beyond the turn attempt). (Similarly any other metamagic would not raise the spell slot cost, but just cost more turns). Through Heighten, the spell is now a 2nd level spell in all respects except the cost to cast the spell. So far, so good. However, when you apply Heighten, it doesn't allow you to raise a spell beyond your maximum normal spell slot. Otherwise, you could just use Heighten by itself to early entry into other classes. I don't believe the Naenhoon combo allows you to cast a spell above your normal casting level, unlike the Improved Sigil: Krau feat.
Spontaneous casting Sorcerer/Beguiler/Dread Necro, etc. entry seems to have more possible options for getting in early. Wiz is the one that's been giving me a headache until I really looked at that Improved Sigil: Krau feat.
Interesting ideas.
Actually I'm not sure whether Precocious apprentice does/does not work. It's iffy. I'd say it's very close to workable, and is really a DM call not establihed to denied within the rules. I'd probably say RAI it works, but RAW it doesn't.
The reason why it doesn't work for Mystic Theurge is that as you get 2nd level casting in either class, you lose the ability to cast the 2nd level spell, thus invalidating the prereqs for the class. (This is important for typical caster 1 / caster 3 / mystic theurge builds, which don't work usually using just Precocious Apprentice; one can force the dang thing to happen, but it isn't as efficient as using another method.)
I hadn't remembered the Naenhoon combination of Illumian sigils you mentioned. Unforunately, my call would be that it doesn't work, 'tho it is borderline - definitely one to look at more deeply. The reason being that it uses Heighten. And heighten doesn't allow you to cast a spell of higher level than you would otherwise be able to cast. The Naenhoon description does say something about the spell not being raised above normal casting level (1st), but I believe it's stating that about the level cost of applying the metamagic - not the final spell level. So here's the way I see it:
1) Spell is treated as a 1st level spell, using 1 turn attempt to add heighten to the spell. The spell would be cast in the 1st level spell slot and you would not be paying any extra metamagic slot costs (beyond the turn attempt). (Similarly any other metamagic would not raise the spell slot cost, but just cost more turns). Through Heighten, the spell is now a 2nd level spell in all respects except the cost to cast the spell. So far, so good. However, when you apply Heighten, it doesn't allow you to raise a spell beyond your maximum normal spell slot. Otherwise, you could just use Heighten by itself to early entry into other classes. I don't believe the Naenhoon combo allows you to cast a spell above your normal casting level, unlike the Improved Sigil: Krau feat.
I'm not sure where you are getting the bolded section; a Naenhoon lets you cast a higher level spell, thus Heighten can be applied, even if you are correct, though (it uses Heighten as a specific example, there).
Spontaneous casting Sorcerer/Beguiler/Dread Necro, etc. entry seems to have more possible options for getting in early. Wiz is the one that's been giving me a headache until I really looked at that Improved Sigil: Krau feat.
Interesting ideas.
Danke.
The reason why it doesn't work for Mystic Theurge is that as you get 2nd level casting in either class, you lose the ability to cast the 2nd level spell, thus invalidating the prereqs for the class. (This is important for typical caster 1 / caster 3 / mystic theurge builds, which don't work usually using just Precocious Apprentice; one can force the dang thing to happen, but it isn't as efficient as using another method.)
I'm not sure where you are getting the bolded section; a Naenhoon lets you cast a higher level spell, thus Heighten can be applied, even if you are correct, though (it uses Heighten as a specific example, there).
RAW, I agree with you 100% on the Precocious Apprentice (regarding the losing access when you gain the 2nd level casting in the other class). That's the primary disqualifier. However, RAI, I believe the feat indicates (and is generally written) in such a way that it assumes you are gaining a level in an Arcane class, and by doing so you lose the first paragraph benefits, because they are no longer needed essentially. Obviously, this one is left open to interpretation - and whether you are going RAW or RAI. I would have no problem (based on that issue) with a DM ruling either way. The way I believe it was intended is when you gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells in the class for which you took the feat (ie WIZ), then you no longer have to make the spell craft checks, etc. or other things in the first paragraph. Otherwise, the only reason I can see for them disallowing that slot at that time, was specifically to prevent the early entry. So RAW - I'd say no. RAI I'd be borderline.
On the Naenhoon thing... It doesn't specifically say you can cast a spell of higher level in the description. If it did say such, then I agree with you 100% and would say this is a totally workable EE option. But, I believe it essentially says you can use turn attempts in place of Metamagic level slots, without increasing the level of the spell used when you apply the metamagic to it. That's the only benefit that I'm aware of (though when I first read it after you brought it up, it did sound like it worked, until I reread it more closely). The intent, and wording essentially don't have anything to do with the level of the spell itself, but rather how much it costs in turns to apply the metamagic (using turns in place of increased casting time and upward spell slots normally consumed by applying the metamagic). It does mention Heighten, but it only says that Heighten costs 1 turn attempt per level of the heighten, up to a maximum of 9th level. Now, it doesn't say Heighten has a limit within the Naenhoon text. However, Heighten itself is where the limitation is found. The reason it mentions Heighten specifically, is Heighten metamagic feat normally has no level cost applied to it.
Here's the verbatum wording on the feat description, which is then followed by the mechanics on applying it: "Twice per day, the illumian can spend one or more turn or rebuke undead attempts as a swift action to add a metamagic effect to a spell she is casting, with no effect on the spell's casting time or effective level. She must have the metamagic feat whose effect she wants to apply.".
If Heighten had no limits, then I'd say Naenhoon works. If the Naenhoon description said it gave a higher slot, then I'd say it works. But the Naenhoon feat allows turns be paid instead of spellslots/casting time, but it doesn't say it otherwise changes the metamagic applied.
On the Heighten not allowing you to heighten to level beyond what you can cast: 1) If Heighten did not do this, you could use Heighten all by itself to early entry in a lot of prc's. 2) In the Heighten description it says the Heightened spell is as difficult to cast as the new raised level (with an example given). By deconstructing that, it means that if you Heighten the spell to 4th level from 2nd, you have to be able to already cast 4th level spells in order for it to work (due to it being as difficult to cast as a 4th level spell). 3) My math may not be exactly right, but If that limit were not in place, you could essentially cast a 1st level spell at 9th level spell power at 1st level.
Again, with straight Heighten, I would allow it to work by itself for Early entry, except it limits it to your highest casting level.
The difference between Naenhoon and Heighten, and Improved Sigil (Krau) racial feat and Precocious Apprentice is the latter set actually create a higher level spell/slot. Granted Prec. App. feat has other issues. But the Improved Sigil Krau feat actually has text in its description that tells you that you can exceed the normal casting level (essentially casting a 1st level spell as a 2nd level spell). Exactly like Heighten, except, it does allow you to cast a higher level spell than you normally could.
Definitely open to discussion - not arguing for no reason. My goal is to find as many solid Wiz early entry options to Mystic Theurge as I can.
The Wizard might qualify by use of some of the spontaneous casting options available to them (but, of course, at that point your Cleric casting is much lower). Perhaps a Wizard / Ur-Priest / Mystic Theurge using Versatile Spellcaster by way of the Spontaneous Divination ACF (not sure how skills would work out, though)... There was a mini-guide written about the Wizard -> Spontaneous Caster options. EDIT: with that much wizard, what's the point, right?
I see your reasoning; I don't think its written that way, but I respect the ambiguity of it all. Definitely a DM call.
The Wizard might qualify by use of some of the spontaneous casting options available to them (but, of course, at that point your Cleric casting is much lower). Perhaps a Wizard / Ur-Priest / Mystic Theurge using Versatile Spellcaster by way of the Spontaneous Divination ACF (not sure how skills would work out, though)... There was a mini-guide written about the Wizard -> Spontaneous Caster options. EDIT: with that much wizard, what's the point, right?
Yeah... I was looking at some weird feat combo's to get WIZ in early using the spontaneous casting method. I haven't seen the mini-guide you're referring to, but it seems there are more options getting in as a spontaneous caster, so in theory if you used tricks to make Wiz spontaneous, you could get in early.
The main reason I've posted this is I'm looking for alternatives, and Wiz is my base Arcane class of choice normally (vs. Sorcerer) - I like to have workable choices available in my campaign in general. A lot of the theurge posts are out of date, or I don't think the combos actually work (of course I've also gotten a lot of good info from them too). I'd hate to see all the theurge types (TN's, Arcane Hierophants, etc.) be illumians, or really low powered
I feel completely comfortable with the Improved Sigil feat for some types, but I'm looking for more choices for other racial builds, etc.Thanks for the help.
Thats all I could find; not very helpful for lower-level stuff, though.
Ah, Alacritious Congitation! Thats the one... Still kind of DM dependent... but...
So you need...
Any race,
Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / MT x
1,b,f,f Alacritious Congitation, Improved Initiative, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell
every other feat free
So can Sanctum Spell.
I've come to the conclusion that Precocious Apprentice with Heighten meets the prereq's for a CL3, WIZ 1 type entry (or perhaps even WIZ3/CL1 depending on how PA is read). Precocious Apprentice by itself RAW did not (though it probably does RAI), and Heighten by itself definitely did not. But RAW when you lose the benefit of PA, then Heighten takes over by allowing you to fill the 2nd level slot with a heightened 1st level spell. Heighten also eliminates the argument for spell failure normally attached to PA as a qualifier.
So, Heighten + PA essentially eliminates the arguments that were against PA by itself, except the spell/spells thing which I personally feel is a non-issue.
Earth Spell can do it but needs flaws
So can Sanctum Spell.
I've seen these. I don't think I liked them due to the conditional terms (particularly Sanctum), but I haven't looked at them in thorough detail yet. In other words, I didn't like the being able to cast only in certain conditions, but once those conditions aren't met, you lose access. I'll look at those more closely, so thanks for the ideas.
Earth Spell can do it but needs flaws
So can Sanctum Spell.
If I may
Human
Bard 1/ Wizard1/ Archivist 1/ MT 7/ FL 10
Feats
Level 1: Earth sense, Earth spell
Level 3: Hieghten spell
Level 6: Extend spell
Level 9: Practised spell caster (Wizard)
Level 12: Practised Spell caster (Archivist)
Level 15: Twin spell
Level 18: Split ray
Items: Ring of Evasion
Abilities (Assuming 18 Intel)
Wiz Spells: 4,5,5,5,5,4,4,3,3,2 Caster Level 20 (40 spells per day)
Arc Spells: 4,6,6,6,6,5,5,4,4,3 Caster level 20 (49 spells per day)
Bard Spells: 2
Total spells per day : 91
Bardic Knowledge : +15
Bardic Music Uses : 11/ day
Bardic Music : Counter song, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1
If I do a duel caster I plan for it all the way to 20 otherwise MT is a lame PrC.
Arcane Caster 1/ Divine caster 1 Can not get you into MT early. You can't meet the skill prereqs with only two levels, you'll need a third level of something, unless some errata changes the skill requirements from K-arcane 6 and K-Religion 6.
Good call on that; I always forget skill req's w/ theurgic builds.
Human->Necropolitian-> Spellstitched
1-Sorc- Heighten Spell+ Versatile spell caster
2-Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge domain feat thingy)with the spontaneous domain Alt from PHB2 (To keep with a Spontaneous theme :D )
3-Cleric again.
4~20 MT (See if your DM will let you extend it past ten levels)
Alternatively, Favored soul at second and third will cut back on MAD, but you'll need any one of the feats that get you all knowledges as class skills at first, so you won't get VS until third.
If you don't want either cleric OR favored soul, Shugenja has the needed knowledges and I think it is also a Cha based caster.
Rock out with arcane and divine casting! Get fancy Spell like abilities to shore up your lack of arcane spells! Trade UP to shiny D12s and DR better than any Barbarian's! Never have to deal with a pesky Con score again!
But that's not all! Order YOUR Necro guda now and for a limited time, We'll throw in a FREE Stitced Flesh Familiar! Yes folks you CAN have Mr. whiskers back from the beyond if you ORDER NOW!!!
(?wonders what he did?)
Also, I think Divine metamagic -> Heighten spell should cover you on the 2nd level divine side of things.
Also, I think Divine metamagic -> Heighten spell should cover you on the 2nd level divine side of things.
Doesn't matter: once you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can use it with any spellcasting you have. Burn Cleric to cast higher level Sorcerer, and vice versa.
For a divine-centered build, when is Archivist2/Conjurer1/MTX worthwhile assuming you start at ECL1? What Archivist1/Conjurer2/MTX for an arcane build?
Yeah, I'd focus on the arcane advancement, too. In particular:
Archivist 1 / Sorcerer 2 / MT 10 / Anything 7, probably. Get all the Druid buff spells on oneself, but have options for healing as well. (EDITED: WTF was I thinking...)
Or, talking about Druids...
Dread Necromancer 1 / Druid 3 / Mystic Theurge x / Arcane Hieromphant 10
Has got a lot of "funk" to it.
Archivist 1 / Sorcerer 2 / MT 10 / Anything 7
that will be CHA and INT for Casting - possibly (but not necessarily) WIS for Bonus Spells on the Divine Side ...
Oh jeah ... you wont wear Armor ... so you might want to have DEX ... and well ... HP (thus CON) was NEVER a mistake ... well, at least you can dump STR ... ...(until the next Ray of Enfeeblement nocks you down for some rounds ...)
And the Druid Build ... well don't even get me started - though Strong, still very "unoptmised"
Additionally the CO requested a Wizard Build ... to be honest, the only choice I see here ist
Wiz1/Archi3/MT ...
Precausious apprentince of course to get the early entry ... less MAD (same as Wiz) but Archivist and thus divinecasting at (possibly) Max.
But aside of that, and without Wizard I have too thought about an early MT Entry with Maximum Synergy and endet up with this:
Monk1/Sorc1/Favoured Soul1/ MT
Stuff to consider: Heighten/Versityle Spellcaster Trick for early entry, loose 2 Levels of Casting on each (thus be 3 levels behind classic Wiz/Cler/ ... ...) but HUGE CHA Synergy; retrain Heighten as soon as you have acces to 2nd level Spells anyways (would be level 6 [CAUTION! GREY ZONE: MT would thus support itsself (you can only go on taking levels and having use out of ist, because you have 3 levels in it - not because you do come up to the prereqs the "regular" way - some DMs might consider that as rulebreaking though RAW there should be no problem with that)]) ... important feat: Ascetic Mage (earliest LVL3, similar Problen with retraining Heighten), Important ACF: Divine Spirit (Sorc, CChamp, replaces Familliar with funny Thing to do good things - youll have more than enough spellslots anyways!)
Preferd Races: Human (could require Practiced Spellcaster, depending character Concept (Blaster, Durations; ...), Illumian (Krau Sigil, other at own choice (look for synergetic uses with spellslots, esspecially unused ones))
The Good:
CHA as only Casting attribute and as Bonus to AC
Never unarmed
Monk Bonus Feat (own choice - not really important which, but i'd prefer Dodge (UA, fighting Style))
no real MAD (CHA>DEX>CON>>>>>Rest (still INT at minimum 10 imho)
TONNS of Spellslots
The Bad:
3 Character Levels behind on a regular Wizard or Cleric build for same Spelllevel Availability
except for 2 D8 your on D4 all the Way + except on 1st only 2 skillpoints on mediocre Skilllist(s)
Limited Spellcoice (Knowstones are your best Friend, Wife, Mother and anything else you could think of - combined with Versityle SC these can reduce your Spellprogression Problem to one Lvl and thus even with any regular Sorc/FavS)
rediculously (Sp?) low BAB (Allthough you CAN cast Divine Power and Divine Favor at some points ... you hardly have the Actions to cast your Spells as it is ...)
The Ugly:
no real choices AFTER MT ... this Problem only occures when you know the Character will go on after lvl13 ... if he does you would have to do further sacrfices (in Feat choice, Race choice, Spellcasting Prowness): take a lvl of Wildrunner (RotW) ASAP and switch to Arcane Hierophant.
Alternativly you could choose to take a class that either advances Arcane OR divine Spellcasting - i Personally would choose Geomancer or even Better Spellsword1/Abjurant Champ5/any Spellprogressing1 (perfect Synergy with Divine Power and Blasting/other Casting in Case there was not taken Illumian or the practiced Spellcaster Feat. Remember, your Goal @20 should be 9th level Spells - so you have to get your Spellprogression to at least lvl 18 (or 16 with knowstones/VersSpellC).
Nothing is Perfect here and it is NOT what i would consider Optimised BUT it fullfills the requirements of an early entry MT with minimum efford and maximum Synergy.
PS: considering the Knowstones issue and playing a lawfull good or neutral (or even evil) Character would net you 2 levels of Paladin or Hexblade and thus CHA to saves (against Spells) and other CHA synergy (i personally would go for Hexblade - except for Breathweapons, Spells are the only thing you will really need Saves for, and the course is a more usefull option than smite)
Also Marshall can make for great Synergy for your CHA - either Motivate DEX or Determined Caster can be very usefull for you, depending on your style.
Anyways, he was interested in legal Mystic Theurge entries. There's a bunch. I don't like the class other than as a filler in other theurgic builds, though (thinking about the Fochlucan Lyricist builds, in particular).
1/2 Fey Star Elf(Dex +2, Con -4, Wis +2, Cha +6)
Warlock 1/ Sorceror 1/ Favored Soul 1/ MT 10/ Eldritch Disciple 7
Feats:
Magic in the Blood(Regional)(Flaw)
Heighten Spell(flaw)
Versatile Caster
Practiced Caster(Sorceror)
Practiced Caster(Favored Soul)
18th lvl Favored Soul Spells(@20th Caster level)(9th lvl Divine Spells)
11th lvl Sorceror spells(@15th lvl caster)(5th lvl spells)
8th lvl Warlock abilities(4d6 EB, 2 Lesser, 3 least invocations)
focus on CHA.... but also gain from 1/2 Fey:
Flight
at will Charm
LOTS of SPELL-LIKE abilities
:P
:D
I'm not sure about getting over depravity's extreme effects but the mad faith feat seems like it would work to me.
Also Versatile Spellcaster you cannot use for your non spontaneous spell caster
Simply put, just go Wizard 3/Cleric 3 like RAI and quit trying to be cheap
hows this:
1/2 Fey Star Elf(Dex +2, Con -4, Wis +2, Cha +6)
Warlock 1/ Sorceror 1/ Favored Soul 1/ MT 10/ Eldritch Disciple 7
Feats:
Magic in the Blood(Regional)(Flaw)
Heighten Spell(flaw)
Versatile Caster
Practiced Caster(Sorceror)
Practiced Caster(Favored Soul)
18th lvl Favored Soul Spells(@20th Caster level)(9th lvl Divine Spells)
11th lvl Sorceror spells(@15th lvl caster)(5th lvl spells)
8th lvl Warlock abilities(4d6 EB, 2 Lesser, 3 least invocations)
focus on CHA.... but also gain from 1/2 Fey:
Flight
at will Charm
LOTS of SPELL-LIKE abilities
:P
:D
too bad you're forgetting that half fey template is +2 level adjustment
too bad you're forgetting that half fey template is +2 level adjustment
LA Buyoff.
to the OP: Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician won't work, they've both been shot down by the sage.
The sage response regarding Southern Magician is made of fail. According to them, the feat does absolutely nothing, other than allow you to get divine or arcane effects (which affects 1 spell ... I think). The feat doesn't even allow you to overcome arcane spell failure (like the description says) because you have to apply the feat after you cast the spell. That's right, in order to overcome ASF, you first have to cast the spell and bypass the ASF.
Also Versatile Spellcaster you cannot use for your non spontaneous spell caster
Yes you can. It requires spontaneous casting to take (which can actually be achieved in a number of ways), and makes absolutely no restrictions as to what slots/spells you can use it on. Going Cleric 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10 is totally legitimate.
Simply put, just go Wizard 3/Cleric 3 like RAI and quit trying to be cheap
A) This is Char Ops. RAI is irrelevant.
2) This whole thread is about getting into PrCs on the cheap. Saying that is like walking into a thread about Core-Only optimization and going "just use teh splats, they make Clerics and Dr00ds moar bahroke!!1!'
Does it need its own thread? All I could find was Caelic begging the question and this:
Dread Necromancer can be entered as level 1 cleric with Mad Faith. I would assume since you now have a second level slot it also qualifies for Mystic Theurge.
And Endaire could you explain your 'Martial Conjurer1/Archivist2/Mystic TheurgeX'? Perhaps you forgot sanctuary spell ;)
Mad Faith[Tainted](Heroes of Horror)Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells, mild depravity.
Benefit: You gain a bonus 1st-level divine spell per day. If you have moderate depravity, then you also gain a 2nd-level divine spell per day. If you have severe depravity, then you also gain a 3rd-level divine spell per day. However, it takes twice as long for you to pray for your spells each day.
although you gain a spell per day, you dont know any spells of that level yet... unless you use Heighten Spell... then heighten a lower level spell to comply with the requirements.... but the problem, Depravity is hard to RP well .... and bring with it its own problems
:D
The sage response regarding Southern Magician is made of fail. According to them, the feat does absolutely nothing, other than allow you to get divine or arcane effects (which affects 1 spell ... I think). The feat doesn't even allow you to overcome arcane spell failure (like the description says) because you have to apply the feat after you cast the spell. That's right, in order to overcome ASF, you first have to cast the spell and bypass the ASF.
Yes you can. It requires spontaneous casting to take (which can actually be achieved in a number of ways), and makes absolutely no restrictions as to what slots/spells you can use it on. Going Cleric 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10 is totally legitimate.
Simply put, just go Wizard 3/Cleric 3 like RAI and quit trying to be cheap
uh oh looks like the short bus made another stop here
Yes let's throw out the Sage advice on everything! Your DM can really approve anything he wants. I just love people patting themselves on the back thinking they've made a legitimate build when that's not the case whatsoever.RAW anyone who spontaneously casts spells can qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, unfortunately only sorcerers, bards, favored souls can benefit from the feat. As the benefit specifically states spell slots need to be used. A prepared spellcaster who can spontaneously cast cure, summon, or whatever doesn't have spell slots. They have prepared spells that they can turn into another spell. So ok throwing out RAI and going by RAW it would never be of benefit to wizard.
uh oh looks like the short bus made another stop here
There's got to be a limit, somewhere, right? Sage advice might as well be another set of houserules as far as I'm concerned.
RAW anyone who spontaneously casts spells can qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, unfortunately only sorcerers, bards, favored souls can benefit from the feat. As the benefit specifically states spell slots need to be used. A prepared spellcaster who can spontaneously cast cure, summon, or whatever doesn't have spell slots. They have prepared spells that they can turn into another spell. So ok throwing out RAI and going by RAW it would never be of benefit to wizard.
If they don't prepare spells, they still have spell slots. If they had Alacritious Cogitation, they could even cast spontaneously (sort of). Its all too fuzzy / DM dependent. His build is legal w.r.t. the interpretation of the rules he's using. RAW doesn't really count on this matter (or anywhere its vaguely written).
EDIT: Not trying to provoke, just saying it doesn't matter.
There's got to be a limit, somewhere, right? Sage advice might as well be another set of houserules as far as I'm concerned.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. He's even said as much in some of the articles. So yeah, I feel completely fine ignoring it. It is 0% official.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. He's even said as much in some of the articles. So yeah, I feel completely fine ignoring it. It is 0% official.
So, the "Sage Advice" column is just advice? How... unique...
RAW anyone who spontaneously casts spells can qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, unfortunately only sorcerers, bards, favored souls can benefit from the feat. As the benefit specifically states spell slots need to be used. A prepared spellcaster who can spontaneously cast cure, summon, or whatever doesn't have spell slots. They have prepared spells that they can turn into another spell. So ok throwing out RAI and going by RAW it would never be of benefit to wizard.
That argument is definitely wrong. Wizards have spell slots, in which they prepare their spells. Saying wizards don't have spell slots is nonsense.
I'm 100% against all early entry cheese though. Which is a bit hypocritical of me really since I have 0% problem using practiced caster etc to meet "caster level xth" requirements.
Clearly all these arguments are pointless, the DM hammer gets the say, and most competent DMs frown upon people trying to make casters even more broken.
A more feat-intensive build doesn't use the Conjurer variant but still requires a specialist Wizard for Metamagic School Focus. Also take Heighten Spell and you can Heighten level 1s to level 2 thrice daily.
That argument is definitely wrong. Wizards have spell slots, in which they prepare their spells. Saying wizards don't have spell slots is nonsense.
QUOTE]
Well an arugment can't be wrong, technically. Since it's a matter of debate you can disagree with me and we'll leave it at that ;) Wizards only have "slots" per se when they don't prepare spells. The only time the would so this is because there are several feats that benefit a wizard when leaving prepared slots open.
I don't care what anyone says, RAW and RAI only spontaneous casters can benefit from Versatile Spellcaster. End discussion. Thanks.
Wizards only have "slots" per se when they don't prepare spells. [...] I don't care what anyone says, RAW and RAI only spontaneous casters can benefit from Versatile Spellcaster. End discussion. Thanks.
The RAW doesn't care what you say and continues to give wizards slots. End discussion. Thnaks.
So wizards do have spell slots? :P I'm just riling you up, I really don't care either way. ;)
But anyways back to what was useful...
although you gain a spell per day, you dont know any spells of that level yet... unless you use Heighten Spell... then heighten a lower level spell to comply with the requirements
I am confused. How can one have a spell for which he doesn't know any spells of that level. Once he knows a spell (of a given level) doesn't he then know spells of that level (over time)?
Also please explain in detail how heighten helps here. Heighten confuses me so I stay away from SCM threads
Depravity [...] bring[s] with it its own problems
You know, I can't actually find said problems. Undead are immune to the negative effects of taint, but still can have some and take the feat. Atleast that's what I am pretty sure heroes of horror said upon my last read through. Also there is that PrC which grants taint immunity but specifically allows you to gain positive aspects of your (now skyrocketing) taint score.
As for the PRC, Tainted Sorceror(?) only suppresses Corruption(all physical symptoms replaced with Inner Corruption). Depravity still stacks.
Well an arugment can't be wrong, technically. Since it's a matter of debate you can disagree with me and we'll leave it at that ;) Wizards only have "slots" per se when they don't prepare spells. The only time the would so this is because there are several feats that benefit a wizard when leaving prepared slots open.
I don't care what anyone says, RAW and RAI only spontaneous casters can benefit from Versatile Spellcaster. End discussion. Thanks.
Don't hide behind "An argument can never be wrong". It can and you are.
Go check out the Archmage from the SRD. You need to sacrifice spell slots to use its abilities.
Too bad wizards don't have spell slots. I guess wizards can't take Archmage's high arcana then, huh?
You are 100% wrong on this point.
Don't hide behind "An argument can never be wrong". It can and you are.
Go check out the Archmage from the SRD. You need to sacrifice spell slots to use its abilities.
Too bad wizards don't have spell slots. I guess wizards can't take Archmage's high arcana then, huh?
You are 100% wrong on this point.
Well they are being ambiguous with archmage because both a sorcerer and a wizard can qualify for this PrC. Instead of saying sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot...they just opted to simplify it. If you look at my post I said per se, wizards technically would have spell slots but not in the same way spontaneous casters do and thus would not benefit from Versatile Spellcaster (which was my whole point). If a wizard casts all his spells and then loses his spellbook well he doesn't have spell slots, he has ****. Thanks.
uh oh looks like the short bus made another stop here
Short bus, eh? I guess you would know more about it than I would. The Sage Advice column is DM advice, not rules text (as was stated many times in the various articles). As such, yes, we should throw it out unless the OP specifies otherwise.
RAW anyone who spontaneously casts spells can qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, unfortunately only sorcerers, bards, favored souls can benefit from the feat. As the benefit specifically states spell slots need to be used. A prepared spellcaster who can spontaneously cast cure, summon, or whatever doesn't have spell slots. They have prepared spells that they can turn into another spell. So ok throwing out RAI and going by RAW it would never be of benefit to wizard.
What? Wizards have spell slots just like all other casters.
spell slot: The "space" in a spellcaster's mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular level ... Spellcasters who must prepare their spells in advance generally fill their spell slots during the preparation period, though a few slots can be left open for spells prepared later in the day.
The relevant sections of the PHB glossary are quoted above. You will note that it says nothing about a filled spell slot not counting as a spell slot. In short, you can use Wizard spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster.
Well an arugment (sic) can't be wrong, technically. Since it's a matter of debate you can disagree with me and we'll leave it at that ;)
An argument can be proven wrong provided sufficient evidence. If you don't understand this, then there is no point even discussing the matter with you.
I don't care what anyone says, RAW and RAI only spontaneous casters can benefit from Versatile Spellcaster. End discussion. Thanks.
Whether you house rule it or not, the rules are pretty clear on this subject. All Versatile Spellcaster requires you to spend is spell slots. Wizards have those, whether they have prepared spells in them or not is irrelevant.
Well they are being ambiguous with archmage because both a sorcerer and a wizard can qualify for this PrC. Instead of saying sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot...they just opted to simplify it.
How are they being ambiguous with the Archmage? It says that you need to give up a spell slot of the appropriate level. How the hell is that ambiguous? Clearly, if they meant "sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot" they would have said it. They didn't though, because all spellcasters have spell slots. Period. End of discussion (see what I did there?).
If you look at my post I said per se, wizards technically would have spell slots but not in the same way spontaneous casters do and thus would not benefit from Versatile Spellcaster (which was my whole point).
Wizards have spell slots exactly like Sorcerers do. The fact that they cast their spells differently doesn't make their spell slots any different.
If a wizard casts all his spells and then loses his spellbook well he doesn't have spell slots, he has ****. Thanks.
A Wizard without his spellbook still has spell slots. They don't go away when he can't prepare spells.
Technically, wizards don't actually know any spells, right?
But this line of reasoning would disqualify wizards from even taking archmage in the first place... so it is clearly flawed.
The only other argument I can raise about versatile spellcasting not working for wizards is that it lets him cast a spell he knows.
Technically, wizards don't actually know any spells, right?
But this line of reasoning would disqualify wizards from even taking archmage in the first place... so it is clearly flawed.
A Wizard's spells known is his spellbook. While it doesn't not explicitly state it, the Spells section in the Wizard entry directs you to the Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook section of the PHB when it talks about a Wizard's spells known.
The only other argument I can raise about versatile spellcasting not working for wizards is that it lets him cast a spell he knows.
Technically, wizards don't actually know any spells, right?
But this line of reasoning would disqualify wizards from even taking archmage in the first place... so it is clearly flawed.
I'll give you an example: Look at the wording on Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium 176) is says "by expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." If they're one in the same why differentiate here? ;)
I'll give you an example: Look at the wording on Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium 176) is says "by expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." If they're one in the same why differentiate here? ;)
Just for the sake of people like you who fail to understand that they're the same thing.
If they left it out you would be jabbering at us that wizards can't use runestaves.
I'll give you an example: Look at the wording on Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium 176) is says "by expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." If they're one in the same why differentiate here? ;)
Um, because Sorcerers don't PREPARE spells. They fill their spell slots as they need them.
Um, because Sorcerers don't PREPARE spells. They fill their spell slots as they need them.
Yes that's the point I've been trying to make. Thanks for riding the short bus:P
I'll give you an example: Look at the wording on Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium 176) is says "by expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." If they're one in the same why differentiate here? ;)
Because the memo from the Department of Redundancy Department said to? I don't care. Wizards have spell slots. They had them when the PHB and DMG were written, and they still had them when the MIC was written. Specifically mentioning "prepared spells or spell slots" doesn't change this.
Yes that's the point I've been trying to make. Thanks for riding the short bus:P
No; that's not the point you were trying to make.
He was cutting it down to only include "by expending a prepared arcane spell of the same level or higher" which obviously excludes sorcerers, which is what he complained about.
"by expending a arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." covers both sorcerers and wizards.
He was dropping the wrong half of the "or" statement, was all.
Nobody else on your bus yet.
No; that's not the point you were trying to make.
He was cutting it down to only include "by expending a prepared arcane spell of the same level or higher" which obviously excludes sorcerers, which is what he complained about.
"by expending a arcane spell slot of the same level or higher." covers both sorcerers and wizards.
He was dropping the wrong half of the "or" statement, was all.
Nobody else on your bus yet.
DINGDINGDING! Got it in one.