Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Unahim Jul 17, 2011 15:15:22	Recently I started playing an Eberron campaign with a new DM, and noticed his campaign is -very- focused on social interactions. In about 30 hours of play, I believe we've foguht maybe 4 times. In lieu of that, I decided to plan ahead and opt for a more social-interaction based character, without completely ditching combat ability(since I'm told combat will happen plentifully further on, even though the social aspect will never dissapear.) So, I decided to give changeling a spin once, since I can see a great many applications for the transformations, past just a "+10 to disguise" that it might be under DMs who're more straight up combat. The only question I still have is: Rogue or Beguiler? I basically want to make a changeling that used to be a high class, exclusive prostitute, until her competition made life a bit too difficult for her, and she (and all her many personalities) hit the road. Since then she's been just about everywhere, living off the money she made in her previous life. Of course, this money will be just about running out as the campaign starts. I want her/him (it?) to be very good at all manners of social occasions and deception. Beguiler seems to offer the best "toolset" for fooling everything in sight, but I'm wondering if I'll have enough skill points to keep all my social skills + a smattering of handy combat things/"skill tricks" topped up? I've never played a Beguiler, how do they compare to rogues in combat? Thank you for any help you can offer!
#2 ObsidianConspiracy Jul 17, 2011 19:39:21	Have you seen the changeling rogue substituions? For a social based character the ability to take 10 on social interactions is fantastic. And 10 skill points a level on the substitutions. I actually had a changeling rogue, using feat rogue too... and basically went beguiler from then on.   So it was rogue 1/beguiler 5/mindbender 1... that's as far as we got. Was aiming to take mindsight at level 9. Anyways the crux, socially awesome, bluff with a take 10 for feinting, just in case you need it.  With only a level lost for casting
#3 Unahim Jul 18, 2011 9:09:55	Yeah, saw that just last night, actually. It's an interesting idea, to be sure. I'll have to mull this over some more it seems, which is ok, since I only need the character the session after my current one dies, anyway :p Which might not be so long, considering she's a zealous cleric of the Silver Flame who seems to get into trouble every step of the way... It's like the other party members are all shrubs and she's a tall tree, catching all the wind :p
#4 Unahim Jul 22, 2011 9:09:30	Alright, going to go for the Changeling Feat Rogue if my DM allows it. Going to take 2 flaws as well, so we're looking at 4 feats here. I'm currently thinking about the following feats: - Nymph's Kiss(if my DM allows me to take it as neutral) - Master Linguist - Persona Immersion - Quick Change(I don't think i'll end up taking this one, don't think there'll be so many situations where I can't take a full action, thoughts?) Am I missing any obvious feats here? Which feats would you take for this concept? (the concept being: social encounters based changeling who likes nothing more than to trick everyone, Becomer style ^^) Also taking Asume Quirk asap.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 22, 2011 12:49:25	Alright, going to go for the Changeling Feat Rogue if my DM allows it. Going to take 2 flaws as well, so we're looking at 4 feats here. I'm currently thinking about the following feats: - Nymph's Kiss(if my DM allows me to take it as neutral) - Master Linguist - Persona Immersion - Quick Change(I don't think i'll end up taking this one, don't think there'll be so many situations where I can't take a full action, thoughts?) Am I missing any obvious feats here? Which feats would you take for this concept? (the concept being: social encounters based changeling who likes nothing more than to trick everyone, Becomer style ^^) Also taking Asume Quirk asap. Why not mix (feat) rogue AND beguiler? Nothing stops you from doing so, especially since Rogue is the changeling's favored class. You'll have much more in the way of options (the rogue is great but kind of monodimensional) both in and out of combat, since the beguiler can spontaneously cast from a huge list of spells that focus mostly on illusion and enchantment. Plus, they're Intelligence-based, not Charisma-based, so keeping your save DCs and bonus spells high will also give you bonus skill points. Taking one or two levels of (Feat) Rogue with the substitutions at the beginning will give you a solid skill base from which Beguiler can only improve (they make good skillmonkeys on their own, actually, but the rogue level(s) kicks that into high gear). Or, you could go full beguiler, which provides enough skill points, I think you'll find. This has a few other good options in it. My favorite is taking one level of Mindbender partway along the route (preferrably before level 7) and taking Mindsight. You now have a method of silent communication with your team, and are aware of the locations of every thinking creature within 100', while advancing your social skills and your enchantment-based spellcasting. Plus, this is pretty close to their Doppelganger heritage, albeit without the creepy appearance. For more information, please see the Beguiler Handbook. Persona Immersion is very good in a social game, and I handily support taking it. Master Linguist, not so much (Changelings have Speak Language as a class skill) and Nymph's Kiss is both from the Book of Exalted Cheese AND requiring a DM ruling to take, so I wouldn't count on it. Instead, I'd suggest looking into Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB2) and anything found in a Diplomancer handbook.
#6 Unahim Jul 22, 2011 17:29:12	Oh yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough, I meant I'd go for the Feat Rogue 1/Beguiler x/Mindbender route ^^ I'm trying to qualify for the Nymph's Kiss by writing it into an elaborate background story, our DM likes that, we'll see! We have a saying here in Belgium: You have no, you can get yes.(meaning, it never hurts to try, it can only improve things, or leave them the same.) Wanderer's Diplomacy seems like a really great feat when playing it "by the book", but I have the feeling our DM wouldn't really go for a lot of the options. For instance, he crafts very detailed cities and such, with all important NPCs listed, so I'm not sure what would happen if I rolled to find a "secret merchant that can supply you with a great item" in a town where he hadn't created such a guy. Might be worth asking him about, though, but it'd be a feat for 3rd level anyway. Looked up a few diplomancer handbooks, most seem dead set on breaking the game, which I don't want to do :p But some good advice here so far, I think I should be able to work the first levels out now. If I don't find any other feats there's always *shudders* combat oriented ones... Really, the biggest problem so far is the alignment conflict on Nymph's Kiss and Mindbender, but we'll see, he's usually very pragmatic with sutff like that, and I might be able to just roll good and get 1 level in Mindbender anyway. It doesn't make sense to me that I can't learn telepathy when good :p
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 22, 2011 17:56:17	Oh yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough, I meant I'd go for the Feat Rogue 1/Beguiler x/Mindbender route ^^ Beguiler 20 (or 19/Mindbender 1) is still perfectly fine, but in this case I'd say you're spot on. Changeling Rogue can be damn scary at times, and the beguiler only makes it better. I'm trying to qualify for the Nymph's Kiss by writing it into an elaborate background story, our DM likes that, we'll see! We have a saying here in Belgium: You have no, you can get yes.(meaning, it never hurts to try, it can only improve things, or leave them the same.) Wanderer's Diplomacy seems like a really great feat when playing it "by the book", but I have the feeling our DM wouldn't really go for a lot of the options. For instance, he crafts very detailed cities and such, with all important NPCs listed, so I'm not sure what would happen if I rolled to find a "secret merchant that can supply you with a great item" in a town where he hadn't created such a guy. Might be worth asking him about, though, but it'd be a feat for 3rd level anyway. As always, check with him. The real power with Wanderer's Diplomacy is the ability to use Bluff in places where Diplomacy may not work, along with the pseudo-tongues (a passable, but not ideal, replacement for Master Linguist) not so much the secret merchant trick. The secret merchant could easily be a black market buyer or the local equivalent of Craigslist - i.e. it may very well be that specific bartender he's created who has that thing for sale, he just doesn't advertise it and somehow you found out about it. Looked up a few diplomancer handbooks, most seem dead set on breaking the game, which I don't want to do :p But some good advice here so far, I think I should be able to work the first levels out now. If I don't find any other feats there's always *shudders* combat oriented ones... Aye, they do tend to break the game when every component is put together that way. I meant borrow a few single components. For instance, one level of Binder (for Naberius) is amazingly kingly in social games. (Less useful for a Changeling Rogue, I'll admit, though.) Really, the biggest problem so far is the alignment conflict on Nymph's Kiss and Mindbender, but we'll see, he's usually very pragmatic with sutff like that, and I might be able to just roll good and get 1 level in Mindbender anyway. It doesn't make sense to me that I can't learn telepathy when good :p Alignment leads to conflicts in general, so many GMs just sidestep it. Having a nymph lover doesn't necessarily mean you're good either - it just means' you're that good. (Read the story of the Legendary Lover in Races of Eberron. Dude's almost certainly Chaotic Neutral.) And since you never pick up the domination abilities of Mindbender if you stop at 1, you can just rename it Doppelganger Mage or something and have it reflect you awakening that aspect of your heritage while advancing along your existing magical storyline.
#8 Unahim Jul 22, 2011 18:23:34	As always, check with him. The real power with Wanderer's Diplomacy is the ability to use Bluff in places where Diplomacy may not work, along with the pseudo-tongues (a passable, but not ideal, replacement for Master Linguist) not so much the secret merchant trick. The secret merchant could easily be a black market buyer or the local equivalent of Craigslist - i.e. it may very well be that specific bartender he's created who has that thing for sale, he just doesn't advertise it and somehow you found out about it. Hadn't looked at the merchant thing like that yet. Could you give me an example of a situation where bluff might work, but diplomacy wouldn't? I know this might be kind of dependant on the situation, but I'm a bit uncertain how to picture this.h. Alignment leads to conflicts in general, so many GMs just sidestep it. Having a nymph lover doesn't necessarily mean you're good either - it just means' you're that good. (Read the story of the Legendary Lover in Races of Eberron. Dude's almost certainly Chaotic Neutral.) And since you never pick up the domination abilities of Mindbender if you stop at 1, you can just rename it Doppelganger Mage or something and have it reflect you awakening that aspect of your heritage while advancing along your existing magical storyline. Yeah, read that, quite an awesome read :p