ECL 9 Archivist Gish - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

ECL 9 Archivist Gish

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rabidpirateman
Jun 10, 2008 18:12:23 I've got a game starting again; setting is Castle Ravenloft.

All books and all Eberron material is allowed; I'm not all that up in my Eberron though.

Stats are 10 11 12 13 14 15 plus 5 points anywhere you want.

Here's what I have so far-

Middle Age Human Archivist 4/Ordained Champion 3/Knight of the Raven 2
Str 9
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 20
Cha 13

Feats
H- Able Learner
1- Knowledge Devotion
3- Weapon Focus (I havent decided)
6- Extend Spell
9- Persist Spell

Also, this might be neligeble, but I think I'll have to be part of the Silver Flame, and their weapon of choice is the Longbow, which I dont have proficiency in. Anyway to get around that?
#2
rabidpirateman
Jun 11, 2008 13:51:44 Has it been 24 hours? Eh, I wont bump again till tomorrow. Sorry if I'm short.
#3
rabidpirateman
Jun 12, 2008 11:22:55 So today the Supreme Court issued that those detained in Guantanamo Bay have the right to an open trail with federal judges.
What are your thoughts about this?
#4
davethemagicweasel
Jun 12, 2008 13:08:00 I think the trials will still be a sham star court.

As for the build, I'm just not sure what you're trying to do here.

Why a "gish" with such a low Strength?

Why take Ordained Champion with such a low Charisma?

Why Able Learner?
#5
rabidpirateman
Jun 12, 2008 13:42:51 I figure I can boost my strength with spells or items, since I'm planning on going for the DMM route.

Same for the low Charisma.

Able Learner for continuing class skills, including Knowledges for Devotion.

The full build would probably be Arch 4/Ord 3/KotR 10/xxx 3 (Maybe Sacred Exorcist or Holt Warden or something...)

Any suggestions on what I should change? I figure the stat layout isn't all that great...
#6
discostan
Jun 12, 2008 13:59:23 The only thing Wisdom does for an Archivist is give them bonus spells, since their primary casting attribute is Intelligence. For starters, I'd swap Wisdom with Int to make Int higher. And since Archivist gets more spells per day than the standard caster classes anyway (max 5 instead of max 4 to make up for the lack of domain casting), you might be able to get away with a low Wisdom score and boost Strength instead.

Weapon Focus isn't that hot of a feat, unless you need it for prerequisites; you can get rid of it to get DMM earlier, or Quicken (which I find a lot more versatile than Persist, since you can call it up on a moment's notice, while your DM can bypass Persist cheese with antimagic fields, dispels, and the like).

A dip into the Contemplative presitge class gets you a bonus domain: you can pick War for longbow proficiency, or Undead for Extra Turning, or Planning for Extend... all sorts of options available.
#7
davethemagicweasel
Jun 12, 2008 14:34:32 Fair enough on Able Learner. There's not much wrong with the feats or build, just the stats imo.

Even if you buff up your Strength, you want it to start decent so it will be even higher after you buff it. Only time you want to dump it like that is if you're Polymorphing. You don't need that much Int imo (save DCs shouldn't matter too much to a gish), or that much Wis (see DiscoStan's comments - with the additional point that if you Persist your buffs you don't need enough slots to keep recasting them every encounter). So, you should be able to afford Cha 14 (maybe 16) and a Str of at least 14. A bit more Con as well.

And if it was me, I wouldn't be Middle Aged. Not worth the penalties if you want to melee imo. Let's see, assuming the "5 extra points" is just on a 1-for-1 basis:

Str 16 (includes 2 level up points)
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12

After that, just buy a good enough Headband of Int to cast your high level spells. Str Enhancement will be covered by Divine Power of course. Cha can be covered with a Persistent Sirine's Grace (from Druid) and an Extended Righteous Aura (from Paladin). Con can be boosted with a Bite of the Were-whatever, and it'll get you Power Attack, but I might still invest in a Con amulet (after all, there's only so many spells you can Persist ... are stacking Nightsticks kosher in this?).

So, right now with Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Righteous Fury and an Extended Righteous Aura we're looking at Str 26, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16.

Once you get 5th level spells you can get Righteous Might and Sirine's Grace into the mix as well - which will get very good.

When you say "all books" does that include Dragonlance? The Dynamic Priest feat would get rid of the Wis requirement entirely.
#8
rabidpirateman
Jun 12, 2008 14:56:57 Oh, I guess I should have stated that... Yeah, Polymorph is allowed, so I figured I would be spending most of my time as a hydra :P Also the reason I was Middle Aged; I thought it would help with MAD...

I didn't think about Contemplative... Although I don't have the books in front of me. Whats the earliest I could dip into it? Also, if I go for WF Longbow, is it worth going for PBS and Precise? Or should I just stick with the penalties and attack things out of melee combat? (Or, since I will be a convert to the Silver Raven, is there ANYTHING out there that says what their weapon of choice is? I know that RtCR doesn't say diddly)

Thanks for the suggestion about dumping wis, too; opens me up from my MAD.

All 3.5 non-setting sources and Eberron; Dragonlance, Faerun, etc. aren't allowed.

Also should be mentioned, this is a fairly low-magic environment treasure-wise. The DM has it so that the wealth-per-level is equal to our level minus one (so starting wealth would be 8). Would a MMRod of Extend be worth the 3000 gp? I should also say that after we buy starting equipment, the town we will be staying at will have very few items over 1000 gold for sale.
#9
Endarire
Jun 12, 2008 21:25:59 If you're good, you can take Sacred Exorcist for turning. For a gish, DMM Persist is about equal to DMM Quicken: Quickened spells are less likely to be dispelled and take fewer turnings, but Persists last all day.

Also, since you're divine, you can't use of Abjurant Champion (CM) or Arcane Strike (CW).
#10
friendlyfrog
Jun 13, 2008 5:55:15
If you're good, you can take Sacred Exorcist for turning.

No need for Sacred exorcist, Knight of the Raven gives Turn undead (in addition to full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, and a few other ass kicking class abilities).
#11
rabidpirateman
Jun 13, 2008 17:16:06 What do people think about a one level dip into Cloistered Cleric? I think it would delay spellcasting, but it would also give me nice stuff plus War domain (maybe Planning to go with it, and I can swap out Knowledge when I get my first level of Ordained Champion)
#12
Endarire
Jun 13, 2008 18:35:05 Contemplative (CD) gives a domain at L1 and L6 and grants full divine casting.
#13
rabidpirateman
Jun 13, 2008 21:52:44 Oh noez, gameday is tomorrow! Whats am I is going to dooooooo?

OK, so, seeing as I can get rid of Wis, does that safely mean I can pump my other stats? Would my dependency on polymorph mean that I can get rid of Str and Dex? How much should I invest into Cha? OH GOD, HELP!

Also, still wondering about the C.Cleric dip?

EDIT: Actually, I'm seeing less and less use from Ordained Champion other than to boost my BAB, since I really dont want to take WF anything. Any other classes I can substitute it with?

DOUBLE EDIT: Human Paragon! Arch 4/HPar 3/KotR 2! Extra feat and an ability boost to help with MAD! Is this awesome [y/n]
#14
rabidpirateman
Jun 13, 2008 23:05:38 Aright, after brainstorming for a while, I've come up with a new build:

Archivist 4/Human Paragon 3/Knight of the Raven OR Ordained Champion 2
Still wondering about Middle age though... If I go with it, stats will resemble:

Str 12 (Including Stat boost and HP boost)
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 14
Cha 14 (Including Stat boost)

FEATS:
H: Able Learner
1: Extend Spell
3: Persist Spell
6: ??? Quicken Spell ???
HP: ???
9: ???

So how do the stats look now? If its better to boost strength, I can dump some Int (Probably down to 16 like Dave suggested). I've also got an opportunity to go into Ordained Champion, but at the same time, I've got the opportunity to go into KotR... I'm leaning toward KotR, but what do you guys think?
#15
friendlyfrog
Jun 14, 2008 5:13:10 Knight of the Raven, without doubt. Turn undead eventually gives you access to Divine metamagic. And you'd really need to be a Cleric to fully benefit from Ordained champion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rabidpirateman Jun 10, 2008 18:12:23	I've got a game starting again; setting is Castle Ravenloft. All books and all Eberron material is allowed; I'm not all that up in my Eberron though. Stats are 10 11 12 13 14 15 plus 5 points anywhere you want. Here's what I have so far- Middle Age Human Archivist 4/Ordained Champion 3/Knight of the Raven 2 Str 9 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 20 Cha 13 Feats H- Able Learner 1- Knowledge Devotion 3- Weapon Focus (I havent decided) 6- Extend Spell 9- Persist Spell Also, this might be neligeble, but I think I'll have to be part of the Silver Flame, and their weapon of choice is the Longbow, which I dont have proficiency in. Anyway to get around that?
#2 rabidpirateman Jun 11, 2008 13:51:44	Has it been 24 hours? Eh, I wont bump again till tomorrow. Sorry if I'm short.
#3 rabidpirateman Jun 12, 2008 11:22:55	So today the Supreme Court issued that those detained in Guantanamo Bay have the right to an open trail with federal judges. What are your thoughts about this?
#4 davethemagicweasel Jun 12, 2008 13:08:00	I think the trials will still be a sham star court. As for the build, I'm just not sure what you're trying to do here. Why a "gish" with such a low Strength? Why take Ordained Champion with such a low Charisma? Why Able Learner?
#5 rabidpirateman Jun 12, 2008 13:42:51	I figure I can boost my strength with spells or items, since I'm planning on going for the DMM route. Same for the low Charisma. Able Learner for continuing class skills, including Knowledges for Devotion. The full build would probably be Arch 4/Ord 3/KotR 10/xxx 3 (Maybe Sacred Exorcist or Holt Warden or something...) Any suggestions on what I should change? I figure the stat layout isn't all that great...
#6 discostan Jun 12, 2008 13:59:23	The only thing Wisdom does for an Archivist is give them bonus spells, since their primary casting attribute is Intelligence. For starters, I'd swap Wisdom with Int to make Int higher. And since Archivist gets more spells per day than the standard caster classes anyway (max 5 instead of max 4 to make up for the lack of domain casting), you might be able to get away with a low Wisdom score and boost Strength instead. Weapon Focus isn't that hot of a feat, unless you need it for prerequisites; you can get rid of it to get DMM earlier, or Quicken (which I find a lot more versatile than Persist, since you can call it up on a moment's notice, while your DM can bypass Persist cheese with antimagic fields, dispels, and the like). A dip into the Contemplative presitge class gets you a bonus domain: you can pick War for longbow proficiency, or Undead for Extra Turning, or Planning for Extend... all sorts of options available.
#7 davethemagicweasel Jun 12, 2008 14:34:32	Fair enough on Able Learner. There's not much wrong with the feats or build, just the stats imo. Even if you buff up your Strength, you want it to start decent so it will be even higher after you buff it. Only time you want to dump it like that is if you're Polymorphing. You don't need that much Int imo (save DCs shouldn't matter too much to a gish), or that much Wis (see DiscoStan's comments - with the additional point that if you Persist your buffs you don't need enough slots to keep recasting them every encounter). So, you should be able to afford Cha 14 (maybe 16) and a Str of at least 14. A bit more Con as well. And if it was me, I wouldn't be Middle Aged. Not worth the penalties if you want to melee imo. Let's see, assuming the "5 extra points" is just on a 1-for-1 basis: Str 16 (includes 2 level up points) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 12 After that, just buy a good enough Headband of Int to cast your high level spells. Str Enhancement will be covered by Divine Power of course. Cha can be covered with a Persistent Sirine's Grace (from Druid) and an Extended Righteous Aura (from Paladin). Con can be boosted with a Bite of the Were-whatever, and it'll get you Power Attack, but I might still invest in a Con amulet (after all, there's only so many spells you can Persist ... are stacking Nightsticks kosher in this?). So, right now with Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Righteous Fury and an Extended Righteous Aura we're looking at Str 26, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16. Once you get 5th level spells you can get Righteous Might and Sirine's Grace into the mix as well - which will get very good. When you say "all books" does that include Dragonlance? The Dynamic Priest feat would get rid of the Wis requirement entirely.
#8 rabidpirateman Jun 12, 2008 14:56:57	Oh, I guess I should have stated that... Yeah, Polymorph is allowed, so I figured I would be spending most of my time as a hydra :P Also the reason I was Middle Aged; I thought it would help with MAD... I didn't think about Contemplative... Although I don't have the books in front of me. Whats the earliest I could dip into it? Also, if I go for WF Longbow, is it worth going for PBS and Precise? Or should I just stick with the penalties and attack things out of melee combat? (Or, since I will be a convert to the Silver Raven, is there ANYTHING out there that says what their weapon of choice is? I know that RtCR doesn't say diddly) Thanks for the suggestion about dumping wis, too; opens me up from my MAD. All 3.5 non-setting sources and Eberron; Dragonlance, Faerun, etc. aren't allowed. Also should be mentioned, this is a fairly low-magic environment treasure-wise. The DM has it so that the wealth-per-level is equal to our level minus one (so starting wealth would be 8). Would a MMRod of Extend be worth the 3000 gp? I should also say that after we buy starting equipment, the town we will be staying at will have very few items over 1000 gold for sale.
#9 Endarire Jun 12, 2008 21:25:59	If you're good, you can take Sacred Exorcist for turning. For a gish, DMM Persist is about equal to DMM Quicken: Quickened spells are less likely to be dispelled and take fewer turnings, but Persists last all day. Also, since you're divine, you can't use of Abjurant Champion (CM) or Arcane Strike (CW).
#10 friendlyfrog Jun 13, 2008 5:55:15	If you're good, you can take Sacred Exorcist for turning. No need for Sacred exorcist, Knight of the Raven gives Turn undead (in addition to full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, and a few other ass kicking class abilities).
#11 rabidpirateman Jun 13, 2008 17:16:06	What do people think about a one level dip into Cloistered Cleric? I think it would delay spellcasting, but it would also give me nice stuff plus War domain (maybe Planning to go with it, and I can swap out Knowledge when I get my first level of Ordained Champion)
#12 Endarire Jun 13, 2008 18:35:05	Contemplative (CD) gives a domain at L1 and L6 and grants full divine casting.
#13 rabidpirateman Jun 13, 2008 21:52:44	Oh noez, gameday is tomorrow! Whats am I is going to dooooooo? OK, so, seeing as I can get rid of Wis, does that safely mean I can pump my other stats? Would my dependency on polymorph mean that I can get rid of Str and Dex? How much should I invest into Cha? OH GOD, HELP! Also, still wondering about the C.Cleric dip? EDIT: Actually, I'm seeing less and less use from Ordained Champion other than to boost my BAB, since I really dont want to take WF anything. Any other classes I can substitute it with? DOUBLE EDIT: Human Paragon! Arch 4/HPar 3/KotR 2! Extra feat and an ability boost to help with MAD! Is this awesome [y/n]
#14 rabidpirateman Jun 13, 2008 23:05:38	Aright, after brainstorming for a while, I've come up with a new build: Archivist 4/Human Paragon 3/Knight of the Raven OR Ordained Champion 2 Still wondering about Middle age though... If I go with it, stats will resemble: Str 12 (Including Stat boost and HP boost) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 14 (Including Stat boost) FEATS: H: Able Learner 1: Extend Spell 3: Persist Spell 6: ??? Quicken Spell ??? HP: ??? 9: ??? So how do the stats look now? If its better to boost strength, I can dump some Int (Probably down to 16 like Dave suggested). I've also got an opportunity to go into Ordained Champion, but at the same time, I've got the opportunity to go into KotR... I'm leaning toward KotR, but what do you guys think?
#15 friendlyfrog Jun 14, 2008 5:13:10	Knight of the Raven, without doubt. Turn undead eventually gives you access to Divine metamagic. And you'd really need to be a Cleric to fully benefit from Ordained champion.