Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cygnusdarius Apr 25, 2008 23:56:11	I know here in the CO boards, Two-Handed weapons are favored beacuse of the ludicrous ammounts of damage that can create, but sometimes we seem to forget that the even a +1 in AC can make a difference between victory of rolling another character (or ponying up gp for the cleric/druid/spirit shaman), this is where the sword & board builds come in. Usually a fighter or a warblade might do the trick, but to really have a good sword & board warrior count I think it needs Improved Shield Bash. So far, my two favorite builds for that are these: Uldrich, male dwarf Ranger 6/Barbarian 4/Deepwarden 10 1.- Improved Shield Bash 3.- Steadfast Determination 6.- Oversized Two-Wpn Fighting 9.- Extra Rage 12.- Shield Specialization 15.- Shield Ward 18.- Quickdraw (might have to ditch this one) Str 15 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8 More of a tank than a shield-specialist, this ranger is made to attack with a shield & axe, and take anything the enemy has for him in store. --- Raven, Human Warblade 8/Fighter 2/Pious Templar of Pelor 10 1.- True Believer 1.- Shield Specialization 3.- Endurance 4.- Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace) 5.- Power Attack 6.- Steadfast Determination 9.- Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) 9.- Shield Ward 12.- Improved Shield Bash 13.- Agile Shield Fighter 15.- Improved Sunder 17.- Combat Brute 18.- Shield Charge Str 16 (10) Dex 10 (2) Con 16 (10) Int 14 (6) Wis 12 (4) Cha 8 This one uses quite more shield-esque feats, and with the martial maneuvers it doesn't need that much more, and it deals even more damage with the free Weapon Specialization (well, semi-free, since Pious Templar needs weapon focus for the requirement) and Melee Weapon Mastery. --- So the books I used (or I own to use) for reference are: Complete sets (the first three) ToB PHB 2 The Races Books BoED BoVD Libris Mortis Heroes of Horror Lords of Madness Fiendish Codexes I & II Expanded Psionics Draconomicon So with these books in hand, can we make a decent sword & board that, not only is capable of withstanding alongside the CoDzilla, but to dish out as much damage? This isn't for a game, it's just to see if it's viable.
#2 mplindustries Apr 26, 2008 0:04:07	Sorry, but after Complete Warrior, the best Sword and Board fighter uses a Greatsword and Buckler. Improved Buckler Defense lets you give up 1 AC versus a Heavy Shield(which, when its a +5 Buckler vs. +5 Heavy Shield, doesn't really matter anymore), and a -1 to hit, in exchange for all the amazingness of a two-handed weapon. As far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to go Sword and Board from an optimization stand point (obviously, there's still flavor reasons to go for a heavy shield, as shield punching has always tickled a fancy of mine).
#3 gaffer Apr 26, 2008 0:38:31	Animated shield?
#4 ShakaUVM Apr 26, 2008 1:51:23	I know here in the CO boards, Two-Handed weapons are favored beacuse of the ludicrous ammounts of damage that can create, but sometimes we seem to forget that the even a +1 in AC can make a difference between victory of rolling another character (or ponying up gp for the cleric/druid/spirit shaman), this is where the sword & board builds come in. We always use two-handed weapons because you can wield a two-handed weapon (for all the bonus damage) and still use a shield. Sword and board is only meaningful at low levels. Animated shields are cheap as hell. Improved Buckler Defense (as another poster said) doesn't help by the rules as written (it only applies to off-hand weapons), but by the rules as intended, your DM might allow it. I'd also really take a second look at those feats you picked out.
#5 mplindustries Apr 26, 2008 5:16:51	Improved Buckler Defense (as another poster said) doesn't help by the rules as written (it only applies to off-hand weapons), but by the rules as intended, your DM might allow it. So I apologize for side tracking this thread a bit, but this was debated before, and I proved several times it actually does work for two-handers by RAW. If you read the actual feat, and the buckler section, you'll see nearly identical wording. Its pretty clear that either Improved Buckler Defense works with two-handed weapons, or someone wielding a two-handed weapon never loses the Buckler's AC in the first place. I would tend to think its the former.
#6 ChristopherGroves Apr 26, 2008 7:22:30	Shield ward is nice; depending on what you want Parrying Shield might be better. Then you could spend the feats on Heavy Armor Optimization and the feat that lets your armor count against touch AC ...
#7 Balthanon Apr 26, 2008 9:48:42	Tome of Battle helped to even the field on two-weapon fighting with the various maneuvers designed around it, and Improved Shield Bash is at least as viable for two-weapon fighting as Improved Buckler Defense. More so in my opinion, since your off hand weapon can get up to 2d6 base damage for a one handed weapon (with the bashing property). Throw on a couple of other size boosts, like enlarge person and Strongarm Bracers and you could be dealing 3d6 or 4d6 base with each attack. In fact, given that an unmodified shield bash is a bludgeoning weapon, it also qualifies for Greater Mighty Wallop. That should make boosting the damage fairly easy, though how much benefit you're going to gain depends on how the bashing property and the spell stack-- hitting an effective Collossal might happen fairly quickly. I believe spikes + bashing + strongarm bracers + enlarge person already actually puts you at Collossal on its own. Pairing a heavy shield with the above and a light hammer with Greater Might Wallop would give you two weapons dealing 4d6 base damage. Combining that with the two-weapon fighting feats, raging mongoose, and haste gives you about 12 attacks-- probably around 40d6 + 15*Str damage assuming your worst attacks miss. That's not horrible and it could be increased further with Time Stands Still, sneak attack, or by squeezing out an extra size category or two (bumping up to 6d6 and then 8d6 damage.)
#8 squashmonster Apr 26, 2008 10:42:53	Are there any rules on wielding shields as two-handed weapons? With a big shield and improved shield bash, you'd be able to have all the benefits of both a shield and a two-handed weapon. (Yes, I'm aware this is nonsense, but can it be done?)
#9 aelryinth Apr 26, 2008 12:22:10	A shield is not considered a wapon that can be wielded in two hands, so no. It can be considered your primary weapon, if you choose to designate it as such, which would allow full Str bonuses for its dmg. The three key feats for Shields are : Improved Shield Bash, Shield Spec and Shield Ward. The key enchantments for Shields are: Enhancement to +5, Bashing. The key enchantments for Shield Spikes/Razors are: +5 Enhancement, Defender. The key Augment Crystal to use is Missile Deflection: Auto deflect one missile attack, +5 AC against all ranged attacks. With a heavy shield +5 of Bashing, +5 Defender Spikes: YOu have +13 AC bonus, and it all applies to Touch AC. Anytime the Shield is equipped, it's being wielded, satisfying any Defender requirements for the Spikes. Your AC against Ranged attacks (including ranged touch, like rays) is +18 AC. YOu can attack with it at no penalty; If you Bash normally, its 2d6 base, and a +1 Weapon. If you use the spikes, its 1-8, and up to a +5 weapon. Normally, half your str bonus will apply. Normally, you will make the shield out of adamantiine or something similar to defy sundering. hardness (the spell) should also apply, and blueshine it to make it immune to acid. Hardness can easily top out at 40ish. At level 20, Your Touch AC with a shield like this should be 35+, making you almost unhittable with ranged touch attacks from mages. ==Aelryinth
#10 womblehunter Apr 26, 2008 12:38:13	A shield is not considered a wapon that can be wielded in two hands, so no. Actually it IS listed in the weapon table under one-handed martial weapons - and you can wield a one-handed weapon two-handed, if you like.
#11 mplindustries Apr 26, 2008 12:40:00	Tome of Battle helped to even the field on two-weapon fighting with the various maneuvers designed around it, and Improved Shield Bash is at least as viable for two-weapon fighting as Improved Buckler Defense. More so in my opinion, since your off hand weapon can get up to 2d6 base damage for a one handed weapon (with the bashing property). Throw on a couple of other size boosts, like enlarge person and Strongarm Bracers and you could be dealing 3d6 or 4d6 base with each attack. In fact, given that an unmodified shield bash is a bludgeoning weapon, it also qualifies for Greater Mighty Wallop. That should make boosting the damage fairly easy, though how much benefit you're going to gain depends on how the bashing property and the spell stack-- hitting an effective Collossal might happen fairly quickly. I believe spikes + bashing + strongarm bracers + enlarge person already actually puts you at Collossal on its own. Pairing a heavy shield with the above and a light hammer with Greater Might Wallop would give you two weapons dealing 4d6 base damage. Combining that with the two-weapon fighting feats, raging mongoose, and haste gives you about 12 attacks-- probably around 40d6 + 15*Str damage assuming your worst attacks miss. That's not horrible and it could be increased further with Time Stands Still, sneak attack, or by squeezing out an extra size category or two (bumping up to 6d6 and then 8d6 damage.) Or you could just wield a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, take the -1 to hit and AC with the buckler, and make half as many attacks for twice as much damage each time (probably more than twice if you power attack intelligently). Are there any rules on wielding shields as two-handed weapons? With a big shield and improved shield bash, you'd be able to have all the benefits of both a shield and a two-handed weapon. (Yes, I'm aware this is nonsense, but can it be done?) I was actually just going to suggest this. A heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, so it absolutely can be used two-handed. With Improved Shield Bash, you could get all the benefits of Improved Buckler Defense and a two-handed weapon all in one item. Of course, you're trading the -1 to hit and AC for a smaller base damage, but it pretty much evens out. You could even do Improved Shield Bash and Improved Buckler Defense so you could have one shield as a +5 and one as a +1 of X, Y, and Z. Thats kind of pushing it, though. I'd just do the Heavy Shield.
#12 ChristopherGroves Apr 26, 2008 12:40:43	Not to mention ... animating it instead of wielding it costs you ... what?
#13 hammerhead22 Apr 26, 2008 18:03:14	I think a fairly common house rule is to disallow animated shields, but yes. If animated shields are allowed, there's no real reason to be a traditional sword & board melee type past level 9 or 10 once the animated shield becomes affordable.
#14 ninjarabbit Apr 26, 2008 20:34:42	The divine shield feat is worth mentioning though you'd have to be a paladin, blackguard, or dip into cleric and have a good cha to use the feat and amke it worthwhile.
#15 jaronk Apr 26, 2008 20:46:44	Crusaders actually have a few good shield related manuevers that are worth considering if you really want to go this route. The largest issue is that you can't get reach (without a Kusari-Gama at least and that's not likely to be allowed) with a shield and weapon unless you go animated. JaronK
#16 andyjames Apr 26, 2008 20:58:25	A wooden heavy shield is a wooden bludgeoning weapon. Can anyone say Greater Mighty Wallop and Spikes (and I don't mean shield spikes...)? :D
#17 Balthanon Apr 26, 2008 23:33:07	Or you could just wield a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, take the -1 to hit and AC with the buckler, and make half as many attacks for twice as much damage each time (probably more than twice if you power attack intelligently). It typically isn't going to be twice as much damage and with Tome of Battle, you can add quite a bit more in the way of attacks. Raging Mongoose is adding 4 attacks at your highest base attack bonus-- most of those are going to hit. Even if you're doing 8d6+1.5 Str damage on each two handed attack, you're going to have a tough time picking up that extra via power attack. Assuming the 4d6 base damage, that's approximately 56 extra just from weapon damage-- at a 3:1 power attack ratio that comes out to a -5 penalty to your attack. You're not going to eliminate some of the weaknesses of TWFing, however, it can be done successfully. Warblade 14/Fighter 2/Paladin 4 could be interesting with a decent Charisma. (Of course, Warblade 20 is probably better.)
#18 mflabias Apr 27, 2008 3:48:44	On what page is Shield Bashing described in the PHB? I've looked through nearly the whole thing and I can't find it. Is it an extra attack?
#19 logicninja Apr 27, 2008 5:02:00	You can take Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield Fighter, and then go Cloistered Cleric -> Ordained Champion, taking Able Learner and Knowledge Devotion, and then the Holy Warrior feat. Ordained Champion has a class feature that can give per-hit damage bonuses, so does Knowledge Devotion, so does Holy Warrior, so does the Divine Favor spell, so do the Gauntlets of War. You wind up with enough damage that getting the extra shield attack is worth it.
#20 animunculi Apr 27, 2008 5:30:05	Crusaders actually have a few good shield related manuevers that are worth considering if you really want to go this route. The largest issue is that you can't get reach (without a Kusari-Gama at least and that's not likely to be allowed) with a shield and weapon unless you go animated. JaronK You can, actually. There's this weapon in Secrets of Sarlona called Spinning Sword. It's basically an exotic longsword with 10 ft. reach.
#21 mplindustries Apr 27, 2008 22:32:17	It typically isn't going to be twice as much damage and with Tome of Battle, you can add quite a bit more in the way of attacks. Raging Mongoose is adding 4 attacks at your highest base attack bonus-- most of those are going to hit. Even if you're doing 8d6+1.5 Str damage on each two handed attack, you're going to have a tough time picking up that extra via power attack. Assuming the 4d6 base damage, that's approximately 56 extra just from weapon damage-- at a 3:1 power attack ratio that comes out to a -5 penalty to your attack. You're not going to eliminate some of the weaknesses of TWFing, however, it can be done successfully. Warblade 14/Fighter 2/Paladin 4 could be interesting with a decent Charisma. (Of course, Warblade 20 is probably better.) Raging Mongoose adds 4 attacks when you dual wield, or 2 attacks if you only use one weapon. So, again, half as many attacks, double (or more) damage each swing. To make a dual-wielder do more damage, or often, just as much damage, as a two-handed user, you need to use static damage boosts that are not reduced in the off-hand (as strength is). For example, Shadow Blade or Elegant Strike (I think thats the name? Champion of Corellon gets it), Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Weapon Spec/Mastery, Collision weapons, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage, etc.
#22 jaronk Apr 28, 2008 0:08:23	You can, actually. There's this weapon in Secrets of Sarlona called Spinning Sword. It's basically an exotic longsword with 10 ft. reach. That's going to have even more trouble getting into the game than a Kusari Gama. Is that even a WotC 3.5 book? JaronK
#23 nanshork Apr 28, 2008 0:10:42	That's going to have even more trouble getting into the game than a Kusari Gama. Is that even a WotC 3.5 book? JaronK Secrets of Sarlona? Yeah, it's an official Eberron book. Same book that Taleshtora (sp?) is out of.
#24 ShakaUVM Apr 29, 2008 18:36:11	Considering the sage ruled that shield spikes and bashing don't stack, that takes away a lot of the gas you get for shield bashing.
#25 awaken_D_M_golem Apr 29, 2008 18:54:21	OA Samurai 1 gets the weapon keyed to Character levels, not class levels, to +10. Titan Bloodline lets you wield something alot bigger than normal. 12th level = Use oversized weapon (Ex) ... As the titan special ability. Oversized Weapon (Ex): A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. Do you have to use a 2-hand warhammer?
#26 Balthanon Apr 29, 2008 20:07:46	Considering the sage ruled that shield spikes and bashing don't stack, that takes away a lot of the gas you get for shield bashing. The last ruling I saw on the issue in the FAQ said the opposite. Has it been changed since?
#27 blargney_the_second Apr 29, 2008 22:56:26	I had a sword & board crusader that I really enjoyed. The fun was in the feats: Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, and Midnight Dodge. For extra enjoyment, throw in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. As a martial adept, you tend to have a lot of move actions available, so I used mine to provoke AoOs. Either they'd hit me and charge up my furious counterstrike, or they'd miss and I'd get to make a free trip attempt (and possibly a follow-up hit to boot). With two Dodge buddies, Elusive Target starts to get really fun. Deliberately walk into being flanked, then set them as your Dodgees. Their first attacks automatically miss and hit each other flatfooted. As an added benefit, it's a great way to avoid abilities like rend on some monsters. -blarg
#28 cygnusdarius Apr 30, 2008 2:06:29	The last ruling I saw on the issue in the FAQ said the opposite. Has it been changed since? Wait, you mean you can stack the damage?.
#29 brainpiercing Apr 30, 2008 6:18:20	I had a sword & board crusader that I really enjoyed. The fun was in the feats: Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, and Midnight Dodge. For extra enjoyment, throw in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. As a martial adept, you tend to have a lot of move actions available, so I used mine to provoke AoOs. Either they'd hit me and charge up my furious counterstrike, or they'd miss and I'd get to make a free trip attempt (and possibly a follow-up hit to boot). With two Dodge buddies, Elusive Target starts to get really fun. Deliberately walk into being flanked, then set them as your Dodgees. Their first attacks automatically miss and hit each other flatfooted. As an added benefit, it's a great way to avoid abilities like rend on some monsters. -blarg That sounds like fun. What is Midnight Dodge and where is it from?
#30 Balthanon Apr 30, 2008 12:22:11	Wait, you mean you can stack the damage?. In 3.0, the damage stacked. In 3.5, they changed them to effective size increases. Spikes increase your shield damage by one category, bashing increases it by two categories. Together they boost your damage by three size categories-- so a heavy spiked bashing shield deals 2d6 damage for instance. A light spiked bashing shield would do 1d8 instead. Midnight Dodge is from Magic of Incarnum-- it actually gives you a point of essentia and the ability to invest essentia into a dodge like ability. It also qualifies for prerequisites as if it were the Dodge feat.
#31 indeterminate Apr 30, 2008 13:13:11	A Swift Hunter build going sword and board with Improved Shield Bash, Travel Devotion (of course) and dual wielding wouldn't necessarily be so terrible either.
#32 blargney_the_second Apr 30, 2008 13:18:48	That sounds like fun. What is Midnight Dodge and where is it from? Magic of Incarnum, p39. Prereq: Con 13, Dex 13. Basically it gives you the same benefit as Dodge, including meeting prereqs for feats, PrCs, etc.
#33 viktor_von_doom Apr 30, 2008 13:52:17	Isn't the Trident a reach weapon? If so that should negate the reach problem.
#34 andyjames Apr 30, 2008 15:09:15	Isn't the Trident a reach weapon? If so that should negate the reach problem. No. The trident is not a reach weapon. There is only one one-handed reach weapon that I know of in the PHB/DMG and that is the Kusari-gama.
#35 cygnusdarius Apr 30, 2008 16:07:18	No. The trident is not a reach weapon. There is only one one-handed reach weapon that I know of in the PHB/DMG and that is the Kusari-gama. The Kusari-gama is in the DMG, right?.
#36 womblehunter May 01, 2008 9:37:13	Yes.
#37 mflabias May 09, 2008 5:52:01	On what page is Shield Bashing described in the PHB? I've looked through nearly the whole thing and I can't find it. Is it an extra attack? Again.
#38 womblehunter May 09, 2008 7:54:02	It's in the Armour section, under shields: Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.