Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Anagorisis Dec 30, 2013 23:28:16	I had hoped to recommend the Eldritch Theurge to a player as a compromise between the mechanical benefits of a Warlock for a person looking for a general, kitchen-sink fantasy caster without d20's nongeneric considerations (vancian casting being essential) without dumping power, but noted a lack of builds online. I remain convinced that a solid, reliable blaster (or at least a debuffer) can be made with this class with no extreme complexity, but to support that point I'd have to work on a build, and I can't be arsed, so I thought I'd ask you to do it.   To be clear, I'm looking to see if the Eldritch Theurge can work as a reliable one-hit-kill machine or a reliable debuffer (while looking to the former most specifically) using either 3.x and/or PF sources. And I'm wondering why, if it can, there's not a lot about it online.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Dec 31, 2013 10:19:01	Anagorisis wrote:
#3 Krusk Dec 31, 2013 10:25:27	Two main reasons Blaster is generally not a good role. You won't find a lot of builds for it, because at its base its a bad tactic. The theurge classes are generally a bad idea. Generally you become bad at two things instead of good at 1. If you want to be a warlock you've got three builds. Item Crafter, Glaivelock or hellfire warlock. Glaivelock can pull its own weight but isn't anything to write home about. Its also "Fairly optimized for a warlock" and DMs might look at you a little funny. Item crafter is super helpful, but if you want to craft items thats what you want, and if it isn't it isn't. Hellfire warlock cranks up EBs damage pretty well, but needs cheesey tricks to not kill itself. If you use this you are going to have to debate your DM, and rightfully get the stinkeye all game, and again its not super awesome.    My best build for you is going to look like this...   **Jesus, I just looked at that class again... there is no way to make this a blaster. Here is a debuffer/battlefield controller**   Warlock 1/ Generalist wizard 4ET 10/Initiate of the sevenfold veil 5 (You are using the chausable of fell power for EB to meet prereq) Feats Quicken SLA - EB (Debate your DM if you can get it to apply to the spellblast power. If not, don't take this. If so, earn stink eye) IOT7FV - Prereqs Improved Init Stats = Int > Cha = Con = Dex > Wis >>>Str.  Race = Anything without an int penalty or LA. Recomended - Grey Elf.    Tactics = Use your spells like cloudkill, or wall of X, or general debuffs but throw them as orbs. Pokeball style. Other than that? Pretend you are a wizard who has LA +1 and play like normal. Make walls of awesome, and shields of awesome.    Also, here is the warlock handbook. Give that a read. But really, remember that build is mostly pretending its a wizard with LA+1 for some utility. So keep that in mind when picking things. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252715   If you can't cheese your way in early with that item I don't think this method is viable at all. You are going to be a wizard who is 3 levels behind, and/or a warlock without eldritch blast damage.
#4 StevenO Dec 31, 2013 14:17:19	I wouldn't say a Warlock going Eldritch DISCIPLE is all bad but that may depend on how you build it and also relies on the crazyness that is divine spellcasting.  The various Warlock/other/Ur-Priest/ED builds can be interesting as you get to play a "full Warlock" during that class's sweet spot before throwing in all that divine spellcasting potential in the end.
#5 Luna_Trigger Dec 31, 2013 17:53:29	Anagorisis wrote:
#6 Anagorisis Dec 31, 2013 19:53:14	Krusk -- Yep, I know blasting sucks. I was just hoping that Spellblast, combined with a chausible (and I assumed early-entry cheese, actually) and Praticed Spellcaster would somehow make up for it. I take it that all this is a "no."   And Eldritch Disciple is terrible, compared to Theurge -- but if you add Ur-Priest to it, well, yeah. Cheese can make nearly anything better. Heck, you could throw a touch of Binder in there and grab some permaturn undead for DMM shenanigans if you're already into Ur-Priest crazy. None of that has anything to do with the OT, though. I didn't ask how to use Warlock effectively: just how to make the ET headshot people, if it could.   On the arcane side, it's looking like the same. Iot7V isn't Ur-Priest level of silly, but that and Grey Elf are fairly high-op, and if that's what it takes to get the Warlock to debuff status as a theurge, I understand the dearth of online builds.   I am fully aware that one can blast with psionics (and other means). I didn't ask about how to blast, or even if blasting was good -- I know it's not, and I know what it takes to make it useful in other areas. I wanted to know, effectively, why the extra dice of damage from spellblast didn't help make up for the lack in the ET's case. If extreme metamagic to optimize damage output of an AoE spell can make a Sorc pull off some level of competency, I thought that another +6-7d6 to a set of AoE damage spells, with chain, might make the difference, but didn't want to run the numbers.   I was already following that thread, Tempest (though it really has nothing to do with what I was mentioning -- my issue was, again, very narrow). Thanks all, appreciated.
#7 aelryinth Jan 03, 2014 15:59:32	Blasting is actually a very GOOD build...but you have to devote everything to it. As has been noted, square peg, round hole....AND A WRECKING BALL TO SHOVE THE PEG INTO THAT HOLE< WAHOO!   I.e. if you can burn anything down, you don't need save or die spells to do the job for you.   That said, eldritch theurge doesn't do the job. This is because the additional damage from being a warlock stacked onto your spells is LESS then most metagmagic feats will provide, and additionally is not multiplied further by those feats.   Yes, if your Empower affected your blast damage in addition to your spell, this would actually work quite well. It doesn't, nor does Maximize, Twin Spell, Split Ray, or Admixture.   POTENTIALLY...you could abuse this with Hellfire Warlock, but your Eldritch Theurgy would be coming in very late, and so your Arcane casting would be 5 levels back....OUCH. And your DM would have to allow you ten levels of Hellfire Warlock for +20d6 damage, which isn't all that likely.   If you're not worried about getting spells sooner and better, you could run this as a VERY versatile and enduring Warlock, able to stack blasts on spells repeatedly. But Blaster builds work with overwhelming damage, acheived by stacking metamagic feats on lower order spells efficiently. You'd have a repeating blaster with decent damage, but not a game changer...at least, not without further investment!   Actually, I'm going to put it out there to Tempest. Could you build an Eldritch Theurge that based his blaster damage off Hellfire Warlock (losing out on all the other Warlock goodies), AND make a decent nova blaster out of the build? Throwing out buffed up force orbs with +25d6 chasers sounds intriguing...   ==Aelryinth
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 03, 2014 16:55:09	aelryinth wrote:
#9 aelryinth Jan 04, 2014 16:23:12	Bloodline instead of Theurgy would cripple his actual spellcasting. Ouch.   ==Aelryinth
(Reply to #9) Tempest_Stormwind	aelryinth wrote:
#11 aelryinth Jan 05, 2014 13:19:09	Well, the problem is you have to be what, 5th level to enter Hellfire Warlock? And a spellcaster on top of that? Then you need to max your Hellfire Warlock levels, THEN max your bloodline levels, THEN enter your Theurgy, right?   Which eats up six potential levels before you start your Eldritch Theurgy...or are you trying to grab the extra Hellfire Levels on the back end?   I mean, the idea is to get into Eldritch Theurge as fast as possible, so you keep your levels in the two classes together and advance them both early and often.   It's looking more like you're going to be an ET from 11-20, and just a Warlock Blaster before then.   ==Aelryinth