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Elf Fighter build. please hurry!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 15:01:36 ok, so i have a genuine problem. you see, i have a 3rd level elf fighter with nothing to do with. this is one of the only campaigns that we will be doing for a long time, and on top of that i play tomorrow. which is saturday, april 12 for the record. so, my question is how to make a genuinely good fighter, that will be able to bring a unique aspect to the game, all i know right now is that im CG. right now i was thinking of going into a solid thicket of blades build with my longsword, then i found out that a spiked chain would be much better, but another point to keep in mind is that this character is based around using a longsword, its important to back ground and future roleplaying. so, i ask you, how to make a solid elf fighter build that uses a longsword, but brings a different flavor to the battle ground... by tomorrow
#2
bozwevial
Apr 11, 2008 15:03:54 What books are you allowed? What ability scores do you have? Are you sticking with Fighter 3, or can you take something else combat focused? Any house rules we should know about? What other members of the party are there?
#3
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 15:13:15 well im allowed the books we own and the ones we got online so that would be just about all of them, mostly including the "complete" series, tome of battle, core II books, and w/e else we can find, but thost are the ones im most familiar that we have. as for my plan, i dont think im sticking fighter, but right now i could change my class if i had to, all i know for sure is the longsword thing is very important, so i need to be combat oriented. my scores are as follows : 16 18 14 14 12 12. my group is a human rogue, a wood elf druid, and a lizardfolk fighter. house rules include no rolling to confirm crits, and other than that anything can be talked with the dm if it makes more sense to be done a different way in the situation, or stat changing on items.
#4
bozwevial
Apr 11, 2008 15:19:23 Just a few more clarifications, please.

Are those scores in order? And do they have racial modifiers taken into account?
#5
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 15:20:20 yes and yes
#6
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 15:28:47 Serious answer, swap all 3 fighter levels for warblade, focus on iron heart and diamond mind, and head into Eternal Blade asap. That is about as strong as you can get being an elf with a longsword. Also, 2hand your longsword if you can, and get power attack and friends. This, combined with warblade strikes will keep your numbers up headed into the mid levels.
#7
bozwevial
Apr 11, 2008 15:30:41 Well, warblade might not be a bad decision for you-IIRC, longsword is an Iron Heart favored weapon and you've got a decent Intelligence score, though you might want to bump it up a little. Eternal blade is a nice class, though the prerequisites are rather steep. Are you planning on fighting with two weapons or using a shield?
#8
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 15:55:45 im know im not using a shield anytime soon, but two weapons would be a good call for me, i just didnt have the starting dough to get all the weapons i wanted so i only have one sword right now. anyway, that plan sounds good, i will look into the iron heart, and my dm should be kool with me switching my scores around.
#9
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 16:02:31 Diamond Mind would also be a good fit, specially with the elfyness. Elves like to meditate, and that's what DM is. Focus on the blade, become the blade, become the cut, live breath and die by the cut. Plus DM is probably the most powerful school of the Sublime Way. But it fits so well.

I wouldn't duel wield. I'd hold the sword in both hands, or look into the Einhander feat in PHBII. Many of the DM and IH maneuvers are standard action strikes, which do not benefit from TWF style at all. In fact, they are weakend by NOT getting your full weight behind that 1 strike. If you really want to TWF, get smaller weapons like shortswords (or elven lightblades) and focus more on Tiger Claw maneuvers like the Mongoose line and Pouncing Strike.

Yea, the prereqs for Eternal Blade are pretty steep, but damn, its a great class, especially the capstone ability.
#10
bozwevial
Apr 11, 2008 16:02:58 If you're planning to TWF, pick up a few Tiger Claw maneuvers that would come in handy. Feral Death Blow is somewhat substandard...I prefer Dancing Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (which, if I'm correct, would fit nicely with Time Stands Still) and similar maneuvers. Otherwise, you could go with Wyvernhand's suggestion and two-hand the longsword, then take Combat Brute (?) and use that to great effect. It's probably better, because then you don't have to spread maneuvers out as much.
#11
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 17:49:23 hey dude, im sorry but i dont know what TWF stands for hehe, but i like the wyvern, and the other idea is nice too. but ill have to look into it later, thanks!
#12
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 18:53:32 TWF means Two Weapon Fighting. In general, it is considered very weak on these boards without some manner of gaining scaling damage increases, such as through sneak attack, Knowledge Devotion feat, Dragonfire Inspiration, and any number of other forms of suplimental damage. A fighter wielding a single weapon with both hands gains the benefit of 1.5x his strength bonus, which mostly evens out with 1x/.5x you get while duelwielding, and the fact that the Power Attack feat, one of the few things that makes fighters viable at higher levels, gives a 2:1 return on attack bonus, rather than 1:1 with a 1hander and 0:1 with the light offhand weapon. Its also very feat intensive to maintain, requiring 3 of the 7-8 feats a character gets from 1-20 for anyone who doesn't receive copious amounts of bonus feats.

When it comes to mid-high levels, your base weapon damage is rather irrelevant, so the difference between the 1d8 of a long sword vs the 2d6 of a greatsword is only ~2.5 damage per hit, 4.5 vs 7. The real damage at mid-high levels comes from 1.5x str (~10-15 damage per hit) and 2:1 PA (~10-20 damage per hit, as most characters seldom PA for full BAB, although it is an option). A longsword is 1handed and not light, which means you have the versitility of using it 1handed if needed, or choking up on the grip and swinging with both hands if you really need that offhand. For delivering most martial strikes from ToB, you can generally wager higher on the PA number, since the strikes are forgoing your iteratives already, so you don't have to worry about them missing from PAing for too much.

I wouldn't use a shield, at least not past level 1-2, as its generally better to kill stuff quicker than to kill slower and expose yourself to more attacks from an enemy with your marginally higher AC. This changes once you can afford an Animated Shield, since there is almost no drawback to having one, and its an extra item slot you can stack extra enchantments on for rather cheap.
#13
quickdrawftw
Apr 11, 2008 20:22:13 ok, thank you for dumbing it down for me lol (cant believe i didnt make the twf connection ><) at any rate, yes, i would rather use the longsword 2 haded, or use it one handed when needed as opposed to 2 weapons, because i already know im not going to a dervish. so, other than taking power attack, is there any other feats you guys would recomend??
#14
gavinfoxx
Apr 11, 2008 21:50:21 Just start looking through the Tome of Battle for feats and maneuvers to give you feats. That book is golden for any fighting type.

And are you going Warblade, which is the sort of "Player Character" type fighter, the Homeric hero type, or Fighter, which is more of an NPC class, which is more the rank and file of a fairly good army--but by no means anything special--type of combatant?

Really, Warblade = PC class, fighter = npc class is seriously how it should be. The fighter is *that bad*.
#15
x-codes
Apr 12, 2008 3:54:21
Really, Warblade = PC class, fighter = npc class is seriously how it should be. The fighter is *that bad*.

Warblade is to Fighter what Factotum is to Expert.

4e is going to make Fighters not a joke anymore. At least it will if it gets rid of this ridiculous weapon specialization shtick that Fighters have been saddled with since 2e and thinking it's useful at all.
#16
andyjames
Apr 12, 2008 5:39:31 A few levels in Champion of Corellon probably won't hurt either...
#17
quickdrawftw
Apr 12, 2008 11:18:35 ya, i just discovered the warblade not too long ago and i really like it, the problem is that i wont really have the book till i get where im going, so ill go early and grab it and work on the character. but what does iron heart do?
#18
smudgyhandsman
Apr 12, 2008 11:32:17 It seems it hasn't been said, but I'll throw it out there. Taking a level in Exotic Weapon Master(CW) nets you Uncanny blow, which lets you add x2 your strength bonus when using a one handed weapon with two hands. Boosting the hell out of your strength is the way to go when using this, but it's just an idea if you're going with one weapon, no shield.
#19
Wyvernhand
Apr 12, 2008 14:08:01
It seems it hasn't been said, but I'll throw it out there. Taking a level in Exotic Weapon Master(CW) nets you Uncanny blow, which lets you add x2 your strength bonus when using a one handed weapon with two hands. Boosting the hell out of your strength is the way to go when using this, but it's just an idea if you're going with one weapon, no shield.

Except that the longsword ISN'T exotic. The feature specifically calls out using a 1 handed EXOTIC weapon in 2 hands. If he was using an Elven Thinblade, the elven longsword, that would be possible.

Ironheart is the school of Sublime hitting stuff really well. Its about a warrior becoming one with his steel, moving together in fluid fasion to provide ample defense and offense. Some of the maneuvers allow a warblade to make attack rolls in place of using his AC, or quickly dispatching a foe with a move that does more damage when an opponent is wounded. Early on, Steel Wind allows a warblade to make 2 attacks against adjacent foes as a standard action, long before the warblade receives his first iterative. Its a great school to combine with Diamond Mind for some real kickassery.
#20
quickdrawftw
Apr 12, 2008 14:54:54 well, ive been told alot on this thread by alot of experienced players, and i just want to say thanks. secondly, ive been informed that dnd will be taking place as scheduled (today, saturday april 12) so im excited to get started with a IH DM build. ive talked to the dm, and he is letting me bump up my scores a tad, so ill kick up my int most likely. other than that im switching my current feats to power attack and _______ so any suggestions on the second feat i can take?
#21
Wyvernhand
Apr 12, 2008 15:21:52 Eh, at your level, Weapon Focus wouldn't be bad. Its the prereq for Eternal Blade, so you might as well take it at lower levels where the +1 has more meaning than higher levels. Other good feats are Adaptive Style from ToB, and Vital Recovery, also from ToB. Ironheart Aura is the prereq to the often proclaimed Stormguard Warrior, but its a tough feat to really use effectively without building completely around it. With a Warblades Adaptive Style, Weapon Focus isn't a bad thing, since each day you can swap the weapon you have for it, so in case something really nice drops between now and forever, you haven't wasted a feat.

I'd say Weapon Focus.
#22
quickdrawftw
Apr 12, 2008 15:26:18 good call
#23
Wyvernhand
Apr 12, 2008 15:37:50
good call

Good Luck! May your sword always stay wet with the blood of your enemies!
#24
quickdrawftw
Apr 13, 2008 12:21:19 Ok, so today is sunday, and let me just let you all know how this went down. i went DM warblade with power attack and WF longsword. we fought a **** load of lizard folk, which is the main enemy right now, and some buddies came over and played some npcs, one of them a ECL 4 lizard folk barbarian, and the other a gargoyle... i stayed away from the gargoyle for i am only 3rd level. so i fought the barbarian though, crit twice thanks to battle ardor and landed a nightmare blade on one of those crits, then finished him off with a max damage pa crit for 30 dmg and got the kill. so that was awesome.

im now changing my longsword in for a greatsword because its WAY better, and the dm doesnt care at all -which is the opposite of what he said like 2 days ago- so thanks for the help everyone!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 15:01:36	ok, so i have a genuine problem. you see, i have a 3rd level elf fighter with nothing to do with. this is one of the only campaigns that we will be doing for a long time, and on top of that i play tomorrow. which is saturday, april 12 for the record. so, my question is how to make a genuinely good fighter, that will be able to bring a unique aspect to the game, all i know right now is that im CG. right now i was thinking of going into a solid thicket of blades build with my longsword, then i found out that a spiked chain would be much better, but another point to keep in mind is that this character is based around using a longsword, its important to back ground and future roleplaying. so, i ask you, how to make a solid elf fighter build that uses a longsword, but brings a different flavor to the battle ground... by tomorrow
#2 bozwevial Apr 11, 2008 15:03:54	What books are you allowed? What ability scores do you have? Are you sticking with Fighter 3, or can you take something else combat focused? Any house rules we should know about? What other members of the party are there?
#3 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 15:13:15	well im allowed the books we own and the ones we got online so that would be just about all of them, mostly including the "complete" series, tome of battle, core II books, and w/e else we can find, but thost are the ones im most familiar that we have. as for my plan, i dont think im sticking fighter, but right now i could change my class if i had to, all i know for sure is the longsword thing is very important, so i need to be combat oriented. my scores are as follows : 16 18 14 14 12 12. my group is a human rogue, a wood elf druid, and a lizardfolk fighter. house rules include no rolling to confirm crits, and other than that anything can be talked with the dm if it makes more sense to be done a different way in the situation, or stat changing on items.
#4 bozwevial Apr 11, 2008 15:19:23	Just a few more clarifications, please. Are those scores in order? And do they have racial modifiers taken into account?
#5 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 15:20:20	yes and yes
#6 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 15:28:47	Serious answer, swap all 3 fighter levels for warblade, focus on iron heart and diamond mind, and head into Eternal Blade asap. That is about as strong as you can get being an elf with a longsword. Also, 2hand your longsword if you can, and get power attack and friends. This, combined with warblade strikes will keep your numbers up headed into the mid levels.
#7 bozwevial Apr 11, 2008 15:30:41	Well, warblade might not be a bad decision for you-IIRC, longsword is an Iron Heart favored weapon and you've got a decent Intelligence score, though you might want to bump it up a little. Eternal blade is a nice class, though the prerequisites are rather steep. Are you planning on fighting with two weapons or using a shield?
#8 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 15:55:45	im know im not using a shield anytime soon, but two weapons would be a good call for me, i just didnt have the starting dough to get all the weapons i wanted so i only have one sword right now. anyway, that plan sounds good, i will look into the iron heart, and my dm should be kool with me switching my scores around.
#9 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 16:02:31	Diamond Mind would also be a good fit, specially with the elfyness. Elves like to meditate, and that's what DM is. Focus on the blade, become the blade, become the cut, live breath and die by the cut. Plus DM is probably the most powerful school of the Sublime Way. But it fits so well. I wouldn't duel wield. I'd hold the sword in both hands, or look into the Einhander feat in PHBII. Many of the DM and IH maneuvers are standard action strikes, which do not benefit from TWF style at all. In fact, they are weakend by NOT getting your full weight behind that 1 strike. If you really want to TWF, get smaller weapons like shortswords (or elven lightblades) and focus more on Tiger Claw maneuvers like the Mongoose line and Pouncing Strike. Yea, the prereqs for Eternal Blade are pretty steep, but damn, its a great class, especially the capstone ability.
#10 bozwevial Apr 11, 2008 16:02:58	If you're planning to TWF, pick up a few Tiger Claw maneuvers that would come in handy. Feral Death Blow is somewhat substandard...I prefer Dancing Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (which, if I'm correct, would fit nicely with Time Stands Still) and similar maneuvers. Otherwise, you could go with Wyvernhand's suggestion and two-hand the longsword, then take Combat Brute (?) and use that to great effect. It's probably better, because then you don't have to spread maneuvers out as much.
#11 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 17:49:23	hey dude, im sorry but i dont know what TWF stands for hehe, but i like the wyvern, and the other idea is nice too. but ill have to look into it later, thanks!
#12 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 18:53:32	TWF means Two Weapon Fighting. In general, it is considered very weak on these boards without some manner of gaining scaling damage increases, such as through sneak attack, Knowledge Devotion feat, Dragonfire Inspiration, and any number of other forms of suplimental damage. A fighter wielding a single weapon with both hands gains the benefit of 1.5x his strength bonus, which mostly evens out with 1x/.5x you get while duelwielding, and the fact that the Power Attack feat, one of the few things that makes fighters viable at higher levels, gives a 2:1 return on attack bonus, rather than 1:1 with a 1hander and 0:1 with the light offhand weapon. Its also very feat intensive to maintain, requiring 3 of the 7-8 feats a character gets from 1-20 for anyone who doesn't receive copious amounts of bonus feats. When it comes to mid-high levels, your base weapon damage is rather irrelevant, so the difference between the 1d8 of a long sword vs the 2d6 of a greatsword is only ~2.5 damage per hit, 4.5 vs 7. The real damage at mid-high levels comes from 1.5x str (~10-15 damage per hit) and 2:1 PA (~10-20 damage per hit, as most characters seldom PA for full BAB, although it is an option). A longsword is 1handed and not light, which means you have the versitility of using it 1handed if needed, or choking up on the grip and swinging with both hands if you really need that offhand. For delivering most martial strikes from ToB, you can generally wager higher on the PA number, since the strikes are forgoing your iteratives already, so you don't have to worry about them missing from PAing for too much. I wouldn't use a shield, at least not past level 1-2, as its generally better to kill stuff quicker than to kill slower and expose yourself to more attacks from an enemy with your marginally higher AC. This changes once you can afford an Animated Shield, since there is almost no drawback to having one, and its an extra item slot you can stack extra enchantments on for rather cheap.
#13 quickdrawftw Apr 11, 2008 20:22:13	ok, thank you for dumbing it down for me lol (cant believe i didnt make the twf connection ><) at any rate, yes, i would rather use the longsword 2 haded, or use it one handed when needed as opposed to 2 weapons, because i already know im not going to a dervish. so, other than taking power attack, is there any other feats you guys would recomend??
#14 gavinfoxx Apr 11, 2008 21:50:21	Just start looking through the Tome of Battle for feats and maneuvers to give you feats. That book is golden for any fighting type. And are you going Warblade, which is the sort of "Player Character" type fighter, the Homeric hero type, or Fighter, which is more of an NPC class, which is more the rank and file of a fairly good army--but by no means anything special--type of combatant? Really, Warblade = PC class, fighter = npc class is seriously how it should be. The fighter is that bad.
#15 x-codes Apr 12, 2008 3:54:21	Really, Warblade = PC class, fighter = npc class is seriously how it should be. The fighter is that bad. Warblade is to Fighter what Factotum is to Expert. 4e is going to make Fighters not a joke anymore. At least it will if it gets rid of this ridiculous weapon specialization shtick that Fighters have been saddled with since 2e and thinking it's useful at all.
#16 andyjames Apr 12, 2008 5:39:31	A few levels in Champion of Corellon probably won't hurt either...
#17 quickdrawftw Apr 12, 2008 11:18:35	ya, i just discovered the warblade not too long ago and i really like it, the problem is that i wont really have the book till i get where im going, so ill go early and grab it and work on the character. but what does iron heart do?
#18 smudgyhandsman Apr 12, 2008 11:32:17	It seems it hasn't been said, but I'll throw it out there. Taking a level in Exotic Weapon Master(CW) nets you Uncanny blow, which lets you add x2 your strength bonus when using a one handed weapon with two hands. Boosting the hell out of your strength is the way to go when using this, but it's just an idea if you're going with one weapon, no shield.
#19 Wyvernhand Apr 12, 2008 14:08:01	It seems it hasn't been said, but I'll throw it out there. Taking a level in Exotic Weapon Master(CW) nets you Uncanny blow, which lets you add x2 your strength bonus when using a one handed weapon with two hands. Boosting the hell out of your strength is the way to go when using this, but it's just an idea if you're going with one weapon, no shield. Except that the longsword ISN'T exotic. The feature specifically calls out using a 1 handed EXOTIC weapon in 2 hands. If he was using an Elven Thinblade, the elven longsword, that would be possible. Ironheart is the school of Sublime hitting stuff really well. Its about a warrior becoming one with his steel, moving together in fluid fasion to provide ample defense and offense. Some of the maneuvers allow a warblade to make attack rolls in place of using his AC, or quickly dispatching a foe with a move that does more damage when an opponent is wounded. Early on, Steel Wind allows a warblade to make 2 attacks against adjacent foes as a standard action, long before the warblade receives his first iterative. Its a great school to combine with Diamond Mind for some real kickassery.
#20 quickdrawftw Apr 12, 2008 14:54:54	well, ive been told alot on this thread by alot of experienced players, and i just want to say thanks. secondly, ive been informed that dnd will be taking place as scheduled (today, saturday april 12) so im excited to get started with a IH DM build. ive talked to the dm, and he is letting me bump up my scores a tad, so ill kick up my int most likely. other than that im switching my current feats to power attack and _______ so any suggestions on the second feat i can take?
#21 Wyvernhand Apr 12, 2008 15:21:52	Eh, at your level, Weapon Focus wouldn't be bad. Its the prereq for Eternal Blade, so you might as well take it at lower levels where the +1 has more meaning than higher levels. Other good feats are Adaptive Style from ToB, and Vital Recovery, also from ToB. Ironheart Aura is the prereq to the often proclaimed Stormguard Warrior, but its a tough feat to really use effectively without building completely around it. With a Warblades Adaptive Style, Weapon Focus isn't a bad thing, since each day you can swap the weapon you have for it, so in case something really nice drops between now and forever, you haven't wasted a feat. I'd say Weapon Focus.
#22 quickdrawftw Apr 12, 2008 15:26:18	good call
#23 Wyvernhand Apr 12, 2008 15:37:50	good call Good Luck! May your sword always stay wet with the blood of your enemies!
#24 quickdrawftw Apr 13, 2008 12:21:19	Ok, so today is sunday, and let me just let you all know how this went down. i went DM warblade with power attack and WF longsword. we fought a **** load of lizard folk, which is the main enemy right now, and some buddies came over and played some npcs, one of them a ECL 4 lizard folk barbarian, and the other a gargoyle... i stayed away from the gargoyle for i am only 3rd level. so i fought the barbarian though, crit twice thanks to battle ardor and landed a nightmare blade on one of those crits, then finished him off with a max damage pa crit for 30 dmg and got the kill. so that was awesome. im now changing my longsword in for a greatsword because its WAY better, and the dm doesnt care at all -which is the opposite of what he said like 2 days ago- so thanks for the help everyone!