Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 squigington Apr 08, 2008 9:13:18	OK so I'm joining an existing savage tide campaign at about lvl 11 the group currently has a cleric/crusader, a rogue, a wizard and a scout (who's not always there). I've been told they need a fighter not a tanky one particularly but not a glass cannon either. I want to play an Elf pole arm user and warblade seems the way to go. I was thinking either just warblade 20 OR warblade 10/eternal blade10. Both focusing on the diamond mind and iron hart disciplines. I'm definitely going to be an elf but sub race is open (not drow). And i definitely want to use a pole arm of some type (or types). i haven rolled stats yet, and all books are open. Thanks for any advice.
#2 womblehunter Apr 08, 2008 9:22:09	If you want an Exotic polearm, the Dwarven Warpike from Races of Stone is pretty good: all the special abilities of a halberd but with extra damage and reach.
#3 gavinfoxx Apr 08, 2008 10:01:08	For weapons: there is the Heavy Poleaxe in Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, and the Dwarven Warpike in Races of Stone and Dragon 331. They appear to look like the exact same weapon, and have almost exactly the same stats, except for one has shared focus halberd and another can be used to trip. What I would do is ask the DM to combine both of them into one weapon, which would make more sense to me. IMO, its stats would be this: Poleaxe: 2 handed, 2d6 damage, 20/x3 crit, Piercing or Slashing, cost: 20 gp, 15 lbs, hardness 5, hp 10, Reach 10', can be set vs Charge, can be used to Trip, Polearm, shared focus (Halberd) Also, there are some interesting polearm feats out there... look in Dragon #331, Dungeon Compendium Volume 1, Dragon #338, Player's Handbook II, Dragon #301, and Ghostwalk.
#4 bonzai Apr 08, 2008 11:36:17	A polearm build that I had recently tried, was an elf Duskblade. Efl Duskblade 20 1. Power Attack 3. Combat Reflexes 6. Martial Study (crusader Strike) 9. Arcane Strike 12. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) 15. Defensive Sweep 18. Cleave or short haft Bonus: Combat casting Essentially focuses on AoO's. With thicket of blades, 5ft steps and withdraws provoke. With defensive sweep, anyone adjacent provokes an AoO. In addition, you are able to channel spells on these attacks, and can use arcane strike. Conversley, if you wanted to save 2 feats, you could take 1 level of Crusader latter on to get the thicket of blades stance, and save yourself 2 feats.
#5 squigington Apr 08, 2008 18:52:01	I'll look into the better pole arms, they seem to be worth the feat. I'm petty set on warblade, Is the thicket of blades combo really worth the 3 feats? any particularly good maneuvers or stances in diamond mind or iron hart?
#6 howland_reed Apr 08, 2008 19:54:05	Is the thicket of blades combo really worth the 3 feats? No, but it's certainly worth (IMO) a 2 level dip into Crusader. Take any 1st level stance at level 1, then take Thicket at level 2 (as long as your character level is 8 or higher). This would also help because it would let you take Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, which would serve as prereqs for maneuvers gained from Eternal Blade. any particularly good maneuvers or stances in diamond mind or iron hart? Lots. Diamond Mind: All the saving throw maneuvers are worthwhile, Moment of Perfect Mind in particular. Emerald Razor lets you power attack up the yingyang. Avalanche of Blades can be useful. At higher levels, some invaluable ones are Diamond Defense (never fail an important save again), Time Stands Still (ultimate full attack), and Quicksilver Movement (move as a swift action...and hey, then Time Stands Still!). Iron Heart: Steel Wind and Punishing Stance are great low-level stuff. I like Disarming Strike, Dazing Strike, Finishing Move, Mithral Tornado, and Manticore Parry. Wall of Blades lets you Shock Trooper/Power Attack your AC down to nothing and still avoid being hit. Ironheart Surge is just freaking awesome. The best thing about Iron Heart, really, is the stances...Absolute Steel, Dancing Blade Form, and Ultimate Blade Parry are great. Seriously, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are my two favorite disciplines. White Raven and Devoted Spirit come close...I tend to favor the first 2 for warblades and the second 2 for crusaders. As far as your overall build? I'd go Warblade8/Crusader2/Eternal Blade1 (for 11 levels)...you could always mix in a few things in place of Warblade levels (fighter1-2 if you need feats, ranger1 if you want some skills at 1st level, etc). After this, just keep on with Eternal Blade...your capstone is sweet.
#7 voran_illezou Apr 08, 2008 20:20:26	Don't forget to pick up Stormguard Warrior. One of the best feats for a Warblade.
#8 archerpwr Apr 08, 2008 20:50:05	Lockdown 2.0 in my sig uses a longspear.
#9 squigington Apr 09, 2008 0:35:26	why a long spear? and why stormguard warrior? it seems like I'd do more damage by just attacking...
#10 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 1:08:48	why a long spear? and why stormguard warrior? it seems like I'd do more damage by just attacking... With THF you are generally better with Power Attack instead of Stormguard Warrior, especially with a 2-handed Reach weapon when you'll be disinclined to give up all those AoO's. Combine with the fact that Stormguard Warrior also requires Iron Heart Aura (not a great feat on it's own) and... yeah. Stormguard Warrior is more for TWFing Warblade-esque initiators as opposed to THFing anything.
#11 squigington Apr 09, 2008 2:20:16	would Warblade8/Crusader2/Eternal Blade10 be better than warblade 18 crusader 2? I'm going for a precise elven pole arm user Eternal Blade just seemed a bit interesting...
#12 howland_reed Apr 09, 2008 14:21:10	This is just my opinion, but of the 2 options you presented, I'd prefer the first. I love multiclassing...generally, I think it gets you better stuff (if you're a noncaster, anyway). But there are times to finish a class, and those times are when the class gets an awesome capstone (cool ability at the last level). Warblade and Eternal Blade both have awesome capstones. I only suggest dipping Crusader if you plan to go Eternal Blade 10...you're missing out on Dual Stancing, but hey, you get Island in Time, which is also hella cool. And it gives you good options...Thicket of Blades at Crusader2, extra maneuvers, prereqs so that when you get new maneuvers from Eternal Blade (which add to your Warblade side, mind you) you can get high-level Devoted Spirit stuff. IIRC, Eternal Blade gives you a stance in there somewhere...pick up Aura of Perfect Order, which is another supersweet stance. If you're going to go 18 levels of Warblade...you may as well go the full 20 and get Dual Stancing, which is an awesomely useful ability. So: I wouldn't go Warblade18/Crusader2 at all...unless you know you'll be epic; I guess then you could wind up Warblade20/Crusader2 at 22nd level. That'd be pretty sweet. But I'd hate to delay Dual Stancing a couple of levels (which could take quite a while to gain, depending on campaign). If you go Warblade20...then yeah, I might suggest spending the feats on Martial Study & Martial Stance to pick up Thicket; it's frankly an incredible stance, especially for it's level. AND if you go Warblade20, you can combine it with another...win.
#13 squigington Apr 09, 2008 16:39:05	I was doing some looking at home and realized that Warblade 8/ Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10 will give me an XP penalty. (unless there is an elf somewhere that has favored class warblade or crusader apart form the half-elf) so I'll have to rethink that... While I'm doing that I have another question, am I shooting myself in the foot taking a reach weapon? I've never really used one before nor seen one played and with the exception of the spiked chain (and the above mentioned lockdown build) I haven't seen them used much around here either. does the not being able to attack adjacent foes hurt you too much? what's the best way to deal with it (without being a monk)?
#14 gavinfoxx Apr 09, 2008 17:34:41	Well the sources I mentioned have plenty of different versions of "using a reach polearm as a non reach weapon" feats. Or you could have armor spikes, or spiked gauntlets, or any of that sort of thing.
#15 gattsu Apr 09, 2008 18:29:44	A brief suggestion:For pure power purposes, Cru8/Wbl2/EB10 might be the better option, as you will have both the superior recovery mechanic and slightly better in class abilities of the Crusader. Since it seems you will be starting as Eternal blade anyways, the fluff is roughly the same. Btw, if you do decide to do Wbl8, look into the splat books for an ability to trade off uncanny dodge, as you will be basically getting it twice.
#16 prime361 Apr 09, 2008 18:32:07	While I'm doing that I have another question, am I shooting myself in the foot taking a reach weapon? I've never really used one before nor seen one played and with the exception of the spiked chain (and the above mentioned lockdown build) I haven't seen them used much around here either. does the not being able to attack adjacent foes hurt you too much? what's the best way to deal with it (without being a monk)? Get powerful build. Weild a reach weapon in one hand. The Prime Suspect
#17 squigington Apr 09, 2008 18:50:30	Get powerful build. Weild a reach weapon in one hand. The Prime Suspect Wouldn't i be taking the inappropriately sized weapon penalty, and not be solving the problem with that? A brief suggestion:For pure power purposes, Cru8/Wbl2/EB10 might be the better option, as you will have both the superior recovery mechanic and slightly better in class abilities of the Crusader. Since it seems you will be starting as Eternal blade anyways, the fluff is roughly the same. Btw, if you do decide to do Wbl8, look into the splat books for an ability to trade off uncanny dodge, as you will be basically getting it twice. In order of importance the important things for this build are probably elf>warblade>polearm=power>dimond mind and iron hart The only reason I'd take crusader would be for thicket of blades and the XP penalty will probably kill that idea...
#18 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 18:51:40	Get powerful build. Weild a reach weapon in one hand. The Prime Suspect Powerful Build doesn't work that way, and neither does Monkey Grip. The most common way to counter the inability to attack adjacent enemies is to either get armor spikes or a natural weapon.
#19 gavinfoxx Apr 09, 2008 18:58:47	Did I not mention that there are a TON of feats that do exactly this?
#20 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 19:02:17	Did I not mention that there are a TON of feats that do exactly this? I think your lack of avatar makes people more glaze over your words without comprehension than actually read and understand what you're saying.
#21 prime361 Apr 09, 2008 19:12:11	Powerful Build doesn't work that way, and neither does Monkey Grip. The most common way to counter the inability to attack adjacent enemies is to either get armor spikes or a natural weapon. It allows you to use weapons sized for a creature one size larger than you. A 2 handed medium weapon is a 1 handed weapon for a large creature. It does allow you to one hand a polearm. Monkey grip would also allow you to do this, as long as you only weild it in your main hand.(site something that makes me wrong please, I can't find anything in the books or errata) No you don't take a penalty for inappropriately sized weapon. Powerful build states you don't. The Prime Suspect EDIT: as for ajacent creatures, weild a 1 handed weapon in your offhand, it allows you to threaten those squares(AoOs are made at full BAB, no penalty for offhand or non-light weapon in offhand, just don't use it in full attacks).
#22 squigington Apr 09, 2008 20:22:24	Did I not mention that there are a TON of feats that do exactly this? I kind of missed your post... But i was also looking for advice on which of the options was best to use...
#23 gavinfoxx Apr 09, 2008 22:11:25	I kind of missed your post... But i was also looking for advice on which of the options was best to use... Well, the thing is, some of those sources are hard to find... which ones in the ones I listed do you have access to?
#24 squigington Apr 09, 2008 22:49:03	Ahhhh right i missunderstood, I only have easy access to the PHP2 but could probably get access to the others if need be. Which of them is best? short haft seems like it might be using up too many of my swift actions but might just need to...
#25 gavinfoxx Apr 09, 2008 22:59:30	Hmmm, I think it might be in the Dragon Compendium, I'm not sure if there is a Dungeon compendium. Anyway, Haft Strike requires two weapon fighting, and if you are going to be getting two weapon fighting, you might as well just get armor spikes anyway... and it doesn't specifically say you can threaten. The PHB II version, Short Haft, is probably better, even though you use swift actions a bunch. Although, that same compendium also has a feat which gives you a reason to get some levels in monk, saying you can use flurry of blows with a polearm... which would likewise solve your problem..
#26 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 23:01:14	It allows you to use weapons sized for a creature one size larger than you. A 2 handed medium weapon is a 1 handed weapon for a large creature. It does allow you to one hand a polearm. Monkey grip would also allow you to do this, as long as you only weild it in your main hand.(site something that makes me wrong please, I can't find anything in the books or errata) Powerful Build and Monkey Grip allow you to use weapons designed for a creature one size larger. In other words, for a medium creature with this ability they are able to use large weapons. It has no effect on said creature's ability to wield medium-size weapons.
#27 the_shaman Apr 10, 2008 0:45:10	It allows you to use weapons sized for a creature one size larger than you. A 2 handed medium weapon is a 1 handed weapon for a large creature. It does allow you to one hand a polearm. Monkey grip would also allow you to do this, as long as you only weild it in your main hand.(site something that makes me wrong please, I can't find anything in the books or errata) I believe that's how it worked in 3.0, but right now a 1 H for a large creature is not the same as a 2h weapon as a medium creature... so wielding a large longsword does not grant you reach, and you do not make a two-handed weapon a one-handed one.
#28 prime361 Apr 10, 2008 13:38:03	I think you guys are missing the important point that according to the rules set forth in the PHB, a medium(for medium creatures) 2 handed weapon is a large(for large creatures) one handed weapon and can be used as such. So, if I can use a large(for large creatures) weapon that is one handed, I can use a medium(for medium creatures) 2 handed weapon in the same manner. It's basic rules from the PHB, at the beginning of the weapons section, under the label Weapon Size IIRC. Also, neither of you are pointing me to the material that supports your arguement. The Prime Suspect
#29 squigington Apr 10, 2008 21:28:20	Ok I think I'm going with the following build: Warblade 1 weapon focus (glaive) Warblade 2 Crusader 3 Power attack Crusader 4 Warblade 5 Warblade 6 iron fortitude Warblade 7 combat reflexes (bonus) Warblade 8 Warblade 9 Stand still Warblade 10 Eternal Blade 11 Eternal Blade 12 stormguard warrior Eternal Blade 13 Eternal Blade 14 Eternal Blade 15 defensive sweep Eternal Blade 16 Eternal Blade 17 Eternal Blade 18 Eternal Blade 19 Eternal Blade 20 There's a free feat in there so advice with that or any of the others would be good and anything else as well I'm currently thinking (my DM said he'd wave the XP penalty) basic elf as race, or possibly wood elf depending on how i feel about the int penalty... I'll be focusing on Diamond mind and iron hart apart from thicket of blades so i was wondering maybe something like the below might be better given I'm going to be starting at lvl 11: Warblade 1 weapon focus (glaive) Warblade 2 Warblade 3 Power attack Warblade 4 Warblade 5 combat reflexes (bonus) Warblade 6 Stand still Warblade 7 Warblade 8 Warblade 9 iron fortitude (bonus) stormguard warrior Warblade 10 Eternal Blade 11 Eternal Blade 12 Martial Stance (thicket of blades) Eternal Blade 13 Eternal Blade 14 Eternal Blade 15 defensive sweep Eternal Blade 16 Eternal Blade 17 Eternal Blade 18 Eternal Blade 19 Eternal Blade 20
#30 gavinfoxx Apr 10, 2008 21:42:30	Could you, you know, use a SMALL 2h polearm one handed? they still have reach, right? Also, if you get two weapon fighting, you can use a two handed weapon and armor spikes or unarmed attack if you want another attack source. Also, the sources I mentioned had a way to use a two handed polearm and a light shield.
#31 squigington Apr 10, 2008 22:09:41	Could you, you know, use a SMALL 2h polearm one handed? they still have reach, right? Also, if you get two weapon fighting, you can use a two handed weapon and armor spikes or unarmed attack if you want another attack source. Also, the sources I mentioned had a way to use a two handed polearm and a light shield. The SRD implies you could but you would do so at a -4, I think the crux of other issue with powerful build and monkey grip is they avoid inappropriately sized weapons... but I'm not sure if they avoid all or just the specific ones that apply... I'm probably going to use a spiked gauntlet for the times i need to attack at non-reach
#32 x-codes Apr 10, 2008 23:58:26	Powerful Build and similar abilities do not work because they have to be weapons *designed* for Large creatures, i.e. LARGE weapons. Medium two-handed weapons do not qualify, no matter how much you want them to Prime.
#33 deschain_of_gilead Apr 11, 2008 0:03:02	This might not be of any use, but couldn't you use one of the maneuver granting items to get the Thicket of Blades, which would save you a feat (IIRC you would still need to pick up Martial Study for a devoted spirit maneuver as a prereq). It's a low-level maneuver, so it's only 3k.
#34 howland_reed Apr 11, 2008 0:55:04	There is some debate about whether the items (Crown of White Ravens etc) allow you to gain stances. Personally, I think you should...the previous item (Discipline Weapons) specifically makes the point that when it says "maneuvers" it includes stances as well. But like I said...it's a DM call. Assuming you can use the item to get Thicket, that'd be great...wouldn't even need Martial Study, since Eternal Blade gives access to Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and you only need one to qualify for Thicket. In fact, you can do it without Martial Study/Stance OR item, if you're willing to wait until EB5...use the maneuver gained at EB1 or EB3 to get a Devoted Spirit maneuver, then use the stance gained at EB5 to take Thicket. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good idea, though...Thicket is a good enough stance that you'd want to take it as early as feasible, and by the time you're at EB5 you're 15th level (15th lvl initiator) you could use that slot for a higher level stance like, oh, Aura of Perfect Order or Immortal Fortitude.
#35 squigington Apr 11, 2008 5:31:47	yeah I'm already thinking 12 is too late given I'm going to be starting at lvl 11, I'm probably looking like being the main tank in the group so I'll probably go with the crusader dip...
#36 prime361 Apr 11, 2008 10:25:18	Powerful Build and similar abilities do not work because they have to be weapons *designed* for Large creatures, i.e. LARGE weapons. Medium two-handed weapons do not qualify, no matter how much you want them to Prime. That is a deffinate possibility. I maintain, and will play it how I see it though, best bet for the OP is to ask his GM. The Prime Suspect
#37 squigington Apr 13, 2008 20:09:38	That is a deffinate possibility. I maintain, and will play it how I see it though, best bet for the OP is to ask his GM. The Prime Suspect I'm not really looking for help with the powerful build thing because I want to play an elf. My DM probably isn't going to let me have thicket from an item, so what I'm really looking for is a critique of my feat selection. thanks to everyone who has helped so far but does anyone else have any advice about feats or non-obvious maneuvers? Assuming i go for the dip in Crusader?
#38 squigington Apr 14, 2008 2:16:56	I'm also looking for help with items if any one can help...