Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 newbie123 Jul 23, 2009 10:16:57	Dear all, currently I'm playing in a campaign which is supposed to go to 20th level or +. My char is a grey elf wizard lvl2 Str: 6 Dex: 16 Con: 12 INT: 20 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 So I'm kind a the smartass in the group :D Feat: Iron Will, Scribe Scroll Elven Wizard substitution for Lvl 1 My DM would allow me to take the Elven Paragon PrC. So I'm just wondering is the +2 Int the loss of one CL worth it? The weapon focus is kind a useless as bow and rapier both do almost no damage in my hands. The only idea was so far to also take weapon finesse and smith spell with the rapier...maybe with vampiric touch or so... My plan was something like Wiz3/Paragon3/Incantatrix10/OlinGisir1/Archmage XXX I would be grateful for any useful comments.
#2 pithica Jul 23, 2009 10:25:35	If you were playing a human and going Human Paragon, my personal answer would be yes, as HP's get lots of skills (of their choice), an open bonus feat, AND the +2 to any stat (plus they can take UMD as their 'adaptive skill' for UMD/Familiar cheese). The difference between caster level 19 and caster level 20 as a wizard is only 1 8th and 1 9th level spell. At the end of the day, the +2 int MAY allow you (with the extra bonus spell(s)) to make up for at least one of those, and it will give you a +1 to save DC's. It is, however, going to ensure (as you are taking the 3 levels early in your 'career') that you are going to be one level behind a straight wizard for new spell levels (thereafter getting new spell levels at the same rate as a sorcerer). If you plan on focusing on SoD/SoL spells, it may be worth it for the extra DC, and losing only 1 caster level as a wizard over 20 levels is still certainly playable. But, it is going to make your progression up to 20 slightly more difficult. As such, I'd personally put it as a slightly less than even trade, overall. You'd generally gain more from the extra CL than you will from the 3 EP levels with most straight caster builds. It is, however, still quite playable, and very powerful, as you aren't losing access to 9ths, or anything. It's not 'worth it' mechanically, usually, but it isn't a major loss, IMO. The 10 levels of Incantatrix are likely going to make up for the decrease, if nothing else will. YMMV. EDIT: You should very much consider the Martial Wizard Variant, trading Scribe Scroll for, for example Improved Init. You should also try and get Iron Will from the Otyugh's Hole special location (in Complete Scoundrel) rather than wasting a feat slot on it. Likewise, if none of the optional bonus feats from EP match your desired build, you should try and use either Retraining (PH2) or the Chaos Feat Shuffle (Fiendish Codex) to replace it with something useful. I'd also go Wizard 4, rather than Wizard 3, for the extra BAB/saves, as you're likely only going to need 2 or 3 archmage levels at the end of your build and not the full 4 possible at 20.
#3 newbie123 Jul 23, 2009 10:51:59	< I already played the char with scribe scroll, and so I think I have to stay with it. < I think this option my DM will not allow.. < Thank you for the hint, this seems to be a good option to trade the feat to something useful. < Ok, wizard 4 it is
#4 dandu Jul 23, 2009 13:24:32	Seems like a decent build.
#5 dr_rocktopus Jul 23, 2009 15:42:41	Issues: Elven paragon interferes with your ability to take the excellent elven generalist levels as well as other interesting ACFs linked to wizard five. This is actually quite interesting and fairly important, as this includes strong ju-ju like spontaneous divination. Further, Wiz 3/ Paragon 3 cuts into your leveling schema for more classically powerful PrCs. As you are whipping incantatrix out of your terrible back-pockets, this is actually a big deal. Early-into incantatrix is a big-big deal.
#6 Weezel Jul 26, 2009 20:19:40	Issues: Elven paragon interferes with your ability to take the excellent elven generalist levels as well as other interesting ACFs linked to wizard five. This is actually quite interesting and fairly important, as this includes strong ju-ju like spontaneous divination. Spontaneous divination is, in my experience, one of the most useful abilities a wizard can pick up. Aside from access to all sorts of situational divinations to fit any situation you come up against, it saves a lot of room in your spellbook (and thus GP from not having to scribe more spells) and allows you to blow all your leftover spells at the end of the day on handy stuff instead like scrying, vigilant slumber, legend lore, or whatever else needs casting. Definately worth taking wizard 5 just for this.
#7 malkavon Jul 26, 2009 23:01:27	Spontaneous divination is, in my experience, one of the most useful abilities a wizard can pick up. Aside from access to all sorts of situational divinations to fit any situation you come up against, it saves a lot of room in your spellbook (and thus GP from not having to scribe more spells) and allows you to blow all your leftover spells at the end of the day on handy stuff instead like scrying, vigilant slumber, legend lore, or whatever else needs casting. Definately worth taking wizard 5 just for this. Note that the errata specifies that you have to know the divination spells in order to cast them via Spontaneous Divination. It's still a marvelous ability, in large part because it gives Wizards access to things like Versatile Spellcaster.
#8 acereraklives Jul 27, 2009 2:46:02	I would avoid elven paragon for this character - as others have said, caster levels and the wiz 5 substitution levels are better than +2 int and some other useless stuff.
#9 newbie123 Jul 27, 2009 12:33:34	thank you all for the comments. You convinced me :-). Although the +2 Int looked tempting on first sight. I'll go Wiz 5 with the elven wizard substitution levels and then Incantatrix.