Elven Crusader AoO Optimization Help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Elven Crusader AoO Optimization Help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shadowflare21
Jul 18, 2009 15:27:06 Hello all, I need some opinions on a crusader build I put together. It focuses on getting AoOs, maximized by a high dex with synergies. The biggest question I have is whether I should use feats & exotic weapon master to allow for tripping, or pick up more TWF/AoO feats. Here is he is:

Race:
Elf

Stats (Modified 30 pt buy):
Str - 14
Dex - 20 (+2 racial)
Con - 12 (-2 Racial)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 12

Build Progression:

Flaw: Combat Expertise
Flaw: Oversized TWF
Trait: Weapon Specialist (Give up all weapon prof for EWP: Elven Thinblade & WF: Elven Thinblade
1: Crusader 1, TWF
2: Crusader 2
3: Crusader 3, Combat Reflexes
4: Crusader 4
5: Crusader 5
6: Crusader 6, Improved TWF
7: Crusader 7
8: Crusader 7/Champion of Correlan Larethian 1, Bonus Feat: Karmic Strike
9: Crusader 7/CoCL2, Double Hit
10: Crusader 7/CoCL3, Improved Trip
11: Crusader 7/CoCL3/Exotic Weapon Master 1, (Stunt: Trip with Elven Thinblade)
12: Crusader 8/CoCL3/EWM1, Greater TWF
13: Crusader 9/CoCL3/EWM1
14: Crusader 10/CoCL3/EWM1
15: Crusader 11/CoCL3/EWM1 Defensive Sweep
16: Crusader 12/CoCL3/EWM1
17: Crusader 13/CoCL3/EWM1
18: Crusader 14/CoCL3/EWM1 Open Feat
19: Crusader 15/CoCL3/EWM1
20: Crusader 16/CoCL3/EWM1

With this progression, I am trying to maximize maneuver capabilities. I'll be picking up Thicket of Blades and maneuvers like Defensive Rebuke to get AoO's along with Karmic Strike. With Double Hit, my number of hits per round should be through the roof combined with the TWF feat chain. If I choose to stick with Exotic Weapon Master and Improved Trip, I can turn those AoO's into trip attempts. At higher levels, Defensive Sweep plus an enlarged size via potion or spell should allow me to have a lock down on the battlefield. Also, DM ruling removed mounted combat as a prereq for CoCL (lucky me, I'm stretched for feats at low levels). Any thoughts on the build would be greatly appreciated, especially opinion on whether tripping is worth the invest feat and level. Thanks!
#2
CantripN
Jul 18, 2009 16:08:35 I'm missing some of Lockdown (Stand Still), Jack B' Quick and my own Phoenix here...
#3
aelryinth
Jul 19, 2009 14:26:33 The key for an AoO build is not to have craploads of AoO, it's to have lots of ways to trigger them, and to make sure that they hit.

1) Dump Karmic Strike, either earlier or later. Spring Attack could be useful, but it's not what you are trying to do, and Dodge and Mobility are meh.
The feat you want is Robilar's Gambit. Does same thing as Karmic, but works even if the enemy MISSES. Karmic only works if they hit.

2) You want reach, not tons of AoO. Reach does more to trigger AoO then pretty much any other synergy, especially combined with Thicket. And given the amount of monsters that have Reach, you really need to be able to hit them.

3) You have to be able to hit the enemy and do dmg. You can finesse, but that burns another feat. A high Str score is advisable. Combat Reflexes gives 6 AoO/rd with a mere 20 Dex, which is Dex base 14 + a Dex booster. With Inherents, you can still get to 25...and it's very, very infrequently you're going to get to use 8 AoO in a round. Whatever you do use it on, should most likely end up dead before its next turn.

4) Twf and Dual Opportunity sound nice, until you realize just how many feats you have to blow to make that work, and just how much money you need to spend on two weapons. Use a TH reach weapon, save yourself time and money and feats. You can use a Spiked Chain for cheese factor, I'd just use a Glaive and Short Haft.

5) Defensive Sweep has to be paired with something to lock an enemy in place. Cue Stand Still. Stand Still's DC is dmg based...so you need to up your Str and Dmg.

6) Deft Opportunist allows you to Fight Defensively and still take AoOs at no penalty, or allows you to use Expertise to offset your Robilar penalty for no cost.

I go into this kind of thing a lot more indepth in my Lockdown build. Go take a gander at it and see what you like. The build is independent of race.

I would also like to point out that Crusaders do NOT make the best Thicket builds. One reason is that a Crusaders offense is actually PENALIZED by a good defense (all their bonus TH and fixed dmg is dependent on them taking dmg), and the second is that most manuvers can't be used on AoO. Fixed and constant dmg that always hits is your friend.

===Aelryinth
#4
shadowflare21
Jul 20, 2009 12:32:18 Thanks for the reply, that lockdown fighter is nasty.

The key for an AoO build is not to have craploads of AoO, it's to have lots of ways to trigger them, and to make sure that they hit.

This guy may not have a total guarantee of an AoO, but he still has an arsenal. Thicket of Blades/Defensive Sweep is almost always an AoO barring tumble or some other trick. Defensive Rebuke/Karmic Strike actually does guarantee an AoO.

1) Dump Karmic Strike, either earlier or later. Spring Attack could be useful, but it's not what you are trying to do, and Dodge and Mobility are meh.
The feat you want is Robilar's Gambit. Does same thing as Karmic, but works even if the enemy MISSES. Karmic only works if they hit.

Rolibar's is very good, but I feel that Karmic Strike is more useful in this build because I can acquire it much earlier, bringing the build into form sooner. My campaigns don't usually go into the higher levels.

3) You have to be able to hit the enemy and do dmg. You can finesse, but that burns another feat. A high Str score is advisable. Combat Reflexes gives 6 AoO/rd with a mere 20 Dex, which is Dex base 14 + a Dex booster. With Inherents, you can still get to 25...and it's very, very infrequently you're going to get to use 8 AoO in a round. Whatever you do use it on, should most likely end up dead before its next turn.

I built this guy around a dex synergy, so I'm not sure I need to have a higher strength. Elven Thinblade (1d8, 18-20/x2) is a finesse-able weapon with no feat. Champion of Corellan Larethian adds dex to damage, so with this weapon/PrC a high dex has the same effect as a high str.

4) Twf and Dual Opportunity sound nice, until you realize just how many feats you have to blow to make that work, and just how much money you need to spend on two weapons. Use a TH reach weapon, save yourself time and money and feats. You can use a Spiked Chain for cheese factor, I'd just use a Glaive and Short Haft.

This is a good point, and from a purely CO standpoint I find it hard to disagree. However, I'm on a mission to prove the effectiveness of TWF, as in our last campaign the THF barb/frenzied zerker brought up quite a discussion of why you should ever TWF unless you were a rogue, so I'll stick with TWF and keep the glaive/short haft for another build.

5) Defensive Sweep has to be paired with something to lock an enemy in place. Cue Stand Still. Stand Still's DC is dmg based...so you need to up your Str and Dmg.

6) Deft Opportunist allows you to Fight Defensively and still take AoOs at no penalty, or allows you to use Expertise to offset your Robilar penalty for no cost.

For Defensive Sweep, I thought thicket of blades would be enough to ensure an AoO. Also, I think there is a maneuver that reduces a target's speed to 0 with a successful attack (and they take damage). Deft Opportunist seems like a good fit, but I'm afraid of taking my AC too high as I do need to fuel furious counterstrike.

If I drop the 3rd level of CoCL and the level of Exotic Weapon Master (losing improved trip and tripping w/Elven Thinblade) and pick up 2 levels of fighter, I can take both Stand Still and Deft Opportunist, but I'm concerned about the amount of opponent control I am losing by not being able to trip effectively. Thoughts?

Thanks for your reply.
#5
aelryinth
Jul 20, 2009 18:53:36 QUOTE=shadowflare21
Thanks for the reply, that lockdown fighter is nasty.

I had a ton of people arguing against it to make it so, heh.

This guy may not have a total guarantee of an AoO, but he still has an arsenal. Thicket of Blades/Defensive Sweep is almost always an AoO barring tumble or some other trick. Defensive Rebuke/Karmic Strike actually does guarantee an AoO.

Thicket grants you an AoO if they move. Defensive grants it if they don't. But Stand Still forces them to not move...that's better control then a Trip, and the chances of them being able to resist it are far, far worse. If they don't want to move, fine, kill them. If they do want to move, too bad, so sad, don't let them and STILL kill them.

Rolibar's is very good, but I feel that Karmic Strike is more useful in this build because I can acquire it much earlier, bringing the build into form sooner. My campaigns don't usually go into the higher levels.

Having 3 unwanted feats so you can take one decent one is not exactly efficient. Yes, it's sooner...what I meant by 'later or sooner' is untrain it when you can get Robilar's, if you feel you simply MUST take it.

I built this guy around a dex synergy, so I'm not sure I need to have a higher strength. Elven Thinblade (1d8, 18-20/x2) is a finesse-able weapon with no feat. Champion of Corellan Larethian adds dex to damage, so with this weapon/PrC a high dex has the same effect as a high str.

Yeah, but how many feats did you waste to get this? You had to get into the PrC, you had to take finesse, THEN it becomes viable. I mean, if this is what you want, take the Shadow Blade feat...it does the same thing.

This is a good point, and from a purely CO standpoint I find it hard to disagree. However, I'm on a mission to prove the effectiveness of TWF, as in our last campaign the THF barb/frenzied zerker brought up quite a discussion of why you should ever TWF unless you were a rogue, so I'll stick with TWF and keep the glaive/short haft for another build.

TWF doesn't work that well for fixed dmg builds...it works best on critting and 'extra damage' builds, both of which have their own restrictions. THen again, Dervishes and lots of attacks with decent TH/DMG numbers are fun enough in their own way. I just look at the weapons cost and shake my head.

For Defensive Sweep, I thought thicket of blades would be enough to ensure an AoO. Also, I think there is a maneuver that reduces a target's speed to 0 with a successful attack (and they take damage). Deft Opportunist seems like a good fit, but I'm afraid of taking my AC too high as I do need to fuel furious counterstrike.

You don't want to 'just' insure an AoO. You want to Lock Them Down...everyone who comes into your reach. Some people do it with Trip...an ability that gets progressively less and less useful. Stand Still, however, is useful at every single level you take it at. They try to move, AoO and they are stuck. They don't move, AoO for extra damage. They try to move past you...no. You just became a living wall.
Fueling Furious Counterstrike is a loser's game. Without lots of Crusader levels, your bonus is pitiful. With Robilar's, you get AoO's if the opponent MISSES. Since you're already forcing him to stand right next to you, and eat ALL of your Full Attack, do you REALLY want to be taking damage? Let him miss-miss-miss...and you attack, attack, attack, with AoO's that use your best BAB, +4 for Deft Opportunist. He effectively kills himself. If he ignores you, just Full Attack him dead. It's not like he can get away!
Furious Counterstrike sort of works for the CRusader because he can heal himself...at the cost of doing Damage strikes, so his offense plummets, and at higher levels the enemies he fights can EASILY exceed his ability to heal himself (for instance, a high level Fighter can rip a Crusader a new one without a problem if the Crusader only dishes out Standard Strikes...you know, like Healing Strikes.)

If I drop the 3rd level of CoCL and the level of Exotic Weapon Master (losing improved trip and tripping w/Elven Thinblade) and pick up 2 levels of fighter, I can take both Stand Still and Deft Opportunist, but I'm concerned about the amount of opponent control I am losing by not being able to trip effectively. Thoughts?

You either Trip moderately well to poorly at late levels, or you Stand Still pretty much all the time. They are both control builds...take your pick. Hint: Stand Still is much cheaper on feats, magic items and buffs required. To use it effectively, all you need is reach, Thicket, and be able to hit and hurt them. Beware, ye Tumblers!

Thanks for your reply.

Happy to help!

==Aelryinth

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shadowflare21 Jul 18, 2009 15:27:06	Hello all, I need some opinions on a crusader build I put together. It focuses on getting AoOs, maximized by a high dex with synergies. The biggest question I have is whether I should use feats & exotic weapon master to allow for tripping, or pick up more TWF/AoO feats. Here is he is: Race: Elf Stats (Modified 30 pt buy): Str - 14 Dex - 20 (+2 racial) Con - 12 (-2 Racial) Int - 10 Wis - 10 Cha - 12 Build Progression: Flaw: Combat Expertise Flaw: Oversized TWF Trait: Weapon Specialist (Give up all weapon prof for EWP: Elven Thinblade & WF: Elven Thinblade 1: Crusader 1, TWF 2: Crusader 2 3: Crusader 3, Combat Reflexes 4: Crusader 4 5: Crusader 5 6: Crusader 6, Improved TWF 7: Crusader 7 8: Crusader 7/Champion of Correlan Larethian 1, Bonus Feat: Karmic Strike 9: Crusader 7/CoCL2, Double Hit 10: Crusader 7/CoCL3, Improved Trip 11: Crusader 7/CoCL3/Exotic Weapon Master 1, (Stunt: Trip with Elven Thinblade) 12: Crusader 8/CoCL3/EWM1, Greater TWF 13: Crusader 9/CoCL3/EWM1 14: Crusader 10/CoCL3/EWM1 15: Crusader 11/CoCL3/EWM1 Defensive Sweep 16: Crusader 12/CoCL3/EWM1 17: Crusader 13/CoCL3/EWM1 18: Crusader 14/CoCL3/EWM1 Open Feat 19: Crusader 15/CoCL3/EWM1 20: Crusader 16/CoCL3/EWM1 With this progression, I am trying to maximize maneuver capabilities. I'll be picking up Thicket of Blades and maneuvers like Defensive Rebuke to get AoO's along with Karmic Strike. With Double Hit, my number of hits per round should be through the roof combined with the TWF feat chain. If I choose to stick with Exotic Weapon Master and Improved Trip, I can turn those AoO's into trip attempts. At higher levels, Defensive Sweep plus an enlarged size via potion or spell should allow me to have a lock down on the battlefield. Also, DM ruling removed mounted combat as a prereq for CoCL (lucky me, I'm stretched for feats at low levels). Any thoughts on the build would be greatly appreciated, especially opinion on whether tripping is worth the invest feat and level. Thanks!
#2 CantripN Jul 18, 2009 16:08:35	I'm missing some of Lockdown (Stand Still), Jack B' Quick and my own Phoenix here...
#3 aelryinth Jul 19, 2009 14:26:33	The key for an AoO build is not to have craploads of AoO, it's to have lots of ways to trigger them, and to make sure that they hit. 1) Dump Karmic Strike, either earlier or later. Spring Attack could be useful, but it's not what you are trying to do, and Dodge and Mobility are meh. The feat you want is Robilar's Gambit. Does same thing as Karmic, but works even if the enemy MISSES. Karmic only works if they hit. 2) You want reach, not tons of AoO. Reach does more to trigger AoO then pretty much any other synergy, especially combined with Thicket. And given the amount of monsters that have Reach, you really need to be able to hit them. 3) You have to be able to hit the enemy and do dmg. You can finesse, but that burns another feat. A high Str score is advisable. Combat Reflexes gives 6 AoO/rd with a mere 20 Dex, which is Dex base 14 + a Dex booster. With Inherents, you can still get to 25...and it's very, very infrequently you're going to get to use 8 AoO in a round. Whatever you do use it on, should most likely end up dead before its next turn. 4) Twf and Dual Opportunity sound nice, until you realize just how many feats you have to blow to make that work, and just how much money you need to spend on two weapons. Use a TH reach weapon, save yourself time and money and feats. You can use a Spiked Chain for cheese factor, I'd just use a Glaive and Short Haft. 5) Defensive Sweep has to be paired with something to lock an enemy in place. Cue Stand Still. Stand Still's DC is dmg based...so you need to up your Str and Dmg. 6) Deft Opportunist allows you to Fight Defensively and still take AoOs at no penalty, or allows you to use Expertise to offset your Robilar penalty for no cost. I go into this kind of thing a lot more indepth in my Lockdown build. Go take a gander at it and see what you like. The build is independent of race. I would also like to point out that Crusaders do NOT make the best Thicket builds. One reason is that a Crusaders offense is actually PENALIZED by a good defense (all their bonus TH and fixed dmg is dependent on them taking dmg), and the second is that most manuvers can't be used on AoO. Fixed and constant dmg that always hits is your friend. ===Aelryinth
#4 shadowflare21 Jul 20, 2009 12:32:18	Thanks for the reply, that lockdown fighter is nasty. The key for an AoO build is not to have craploads of AoO, it's to have lots of ways to trigger them, and to make sure that they hit. This guy may not have a total guarantee of an AoO, but he still has an arsenal. Thicket of Blades/Defensive Sweep is almost always an AoO barring tumble or some other trick. Defensive Rebuke/Karmic Strike actually does guarantee an AoO. 1) Dump Karmic Strike, either earlier or later. Spring Attack could be useful, but it's not what you are trying to do, and Dodge and Mobility are meh. The feat you want is Robilar's Gambit. Does same thing as Karmic, but works even if the enemy MISSES. Karmic only works if they hit. Rolibar's is very good, but I feel that Karmic Strike is more useful in this build because I can acquire it much earlier, bringing the build into form sooner. My campaigns don't usually go into the higher levels. 3) You have to be able to hit the enemy and do dmg. You can finesse, but that burns another feat. A high Str score is advisable. Combat Reflexes gives 6 AoO/rd with a mere 20 Dex, which is Dex base 14 + a Dex booster. With Inherents, you can still get to 25...and it's very, very infrequently you're going to get to use 8 AoO in a round. Whatever you do use it on, should most likely end up dead before its next turn. I built this guy around a dex synergy, so I'm not sure I need to have a higher strength. Elven Thinblade (1d8, 18-20/x2) is a finesse-able weapon with no feat. Champion of Corellan Larethian adds dex to damage, so with this weapon/PrC a high dex has the same effect as a high str. 4) Twf and Dual Opportunity sound nice, until you realize just how many feats you have to blow to make that work, and just how much money you need to spend on two weapons. Use a TH reach weapon, save yourself time and money and feats. You can use a Spiked Chain for cheese factor, I'd just use a Glaive and Short Haft. This is a good point, and from a purely CO standpoint I find it hard to disagree. However, I'm on a mission to prove the effectiveness of TWF, as in our last campaign the THF barb/frenzied zerker brought up quite a discussion of why you should ever TWF unless you were a rogue, so I'll stick with TWF and keep the glaive/short haft for another build. 5) Defensive Sweep has to be paired with something to lock an enemy in place. Cue Stand Still. Stand Still's DC is dmg based...so you need to up your Str and Dmg. 6) Deft Opportunist allows you to Fight Defensively and still take AoOs at no penalty, or allows you to use Expertise to offset your Robilar penalty for no cost. For Defensive Sweep, I thought thicket of blades would be enough to ensure an AoO. Also, I think there is a maneuver that reduces a target's speed to 0 with a successful attack (and they take damage). Deft Opportunist seems like a good fit, but I'm afraid of taking my AC too high as I do need to fuel furious counterstrike. If I drop the 3rd level of CoCL and the level of Exotic Weapon Master (losing improved trip and tripping w/Elven Thinblade) and pick up 2 levels of fighter, I can take both Stand Still and Deft Opportunist, but I'm concerned about the amount of opponent control I am losing by not being able to trip effectively. Thoughts? Thanks for your reply.
#5 aelryinth Jul 20, 2009 18:53:36	QUOTE=shadowflare21 Thanks for the reply, that lockdown fighter is nasty. I had a ton of people arguing against it to make it so, heh. This guy may not have a total guarantee of an AoO, but he still has an arsenal. Thicket of Blades/Defensive Sweep is almost always an AoO barring tumble or some other trick. Defensive Rebuke/Karmic Strike actually does guarantee an AoO. Thicket grants you an AoO if they move. Defensive grants it if they don't. But Stand Still forces them to not move...that's better control then a Trip, and the chances of them being able to resist it are far, far worse. If they don't want to move, fine, kill them. If they do want to move, too bad, so sad, don't let them and STILL kill them. Rolibar's is very good, but I feel that Karmic Strike is more useful in this build because I can acquire it much earlier, bringing the build into form sooner. My campaigns don't usually go into the higher levels. Having 3 unwanted feats so you can take one decent one is not exactly efficient. Yes, it's sooner...what I meant by 'later or sooner' is untrain it when you can get Robilar's, if you feel you simply MUST take it. I built this guy around a dex synergy, so I'm not sure I need to have a higher strength. Elven Thinblade (1d8, 18-20/x2) is a finesse-able weapon with no feat. Champion of Corellan Larethian adds dex to damage, so with this weapon/PrC a high dex has the same effect as a high str. Yeah, but how many feats did you waste to get this? You had to get into the PrC, you had to take finesse, THEN it becomes viable. I mean, if this is what you want, take the Shadow Blade feat...it does the same thing. This is a good point, and from a purely CO standpoint I find it hard to disagree. However, I'm on a mission to prove the effectiveness of TWF, as in our last campaign the THF barb/frenzied zerker brought up quite a discussion of why you should ever TWF unless you were a rogue, so I'll stick with TWF and keep the glaive/short haft for another build. TWF doesn't work that well for fixed dmg builds...it works best on critting and 'extra damage' builds, both of which have their own restrictions. THen again, Dervishes and lots of attacks with decent TH/DMG numbers are fun enough in their own way. I just look at the weapons cost and shake my head. For Defensive Sweep, I thought thicket of blades would be enough to ensure an AoO. Also, I think there is a maneuver that reduces a target's speed to 0 with a successful attack (and they take damage). Deft Opportunist seems like a good fit, but I'm afraid of taking my AC too high as I do need to fuel furious counterstrike. You don't want to 'just' insure an AoO. You want to Lock Them Down...everyone who comes into your reach. Some people do it with Trip...an ability that gets progressively less and less useful. Stand Still, however, is useful at every single level you take it at. They try to move, AoO and they are stuck. They don't move, AoO for extra damage. They try to move past you...no. You just became a living wall. Fueling Furious Counterstrike is a loser's game. Without lots of Crusader levels, your bonus is pitiful. With Robilar's, you get AoO's if the opponent MISSES. Since you're already forcing him to stand right next to you, and eat ALL of your Full Attack, do you REALLY want to be taking damage? Let him miss-miss-miss...and you attack, attack, attack, with AoO's that use your best BAB, +4 for Deft Opportunist. He effectively kills himself. If he ignores you, just Full Attack him dead. It's not like he can get away! Furious Counterstrike sort of works for the CRusader because he can heal himself...at the cost of doing Damage strikes, so his offense plummets, and at higher levels the enemies he fights can EASILY exceed his ability to heal himself (for instance, a high level Fighter can rip a Crusader a new one without a problem if the Crusader only dishes out Standard Strikes...you know, like Healing Strikes.) If I drop the 3rd level of CoCL and the level of Exotic Weapon Master (losing improved trip and tripping w/Elven Thinblade) and pick up 2 levels of fighter, I can take both Stand Still and Deft Opportunist, but I'm concerned about the amount of opponent control I am losing by not being able to trip effectively. Thoughts? You either Trip moderately well to poorly at late levels, or you Stand Still pretty much all the time. They are both control builds...take your pick. Hint: Stand Still is much cheaper on feats, magic items and buffs required. To use it effectively, all you need is reach, Thicket, and be able to hit and hurt them. Beware, ye Tumblers! Thanks for your reply. Happy to help! ==Aelryinth