JaronK
I'll grant you that there are ways to make it so it's pretty hard to stop a full attack once that Warblade or Eternal Blade is in range, but a lot of them require cheese, such as Battle Jump, and they won't work with Warblade 20. Eternal Blade is just hard to dodge once you're in melee range (i.e. twice movement range).
Any immediate action powers obviously help, too.
Then just stay out of range and lay on stuff from, say, the energy and light mantles. Light Burst deals 6d6 base damage (costing 15 power points).
As a 20th level manifester with Practiced Manifester (+4 manifester levels feat) manifesting as a 24th level manifester you have two options.
1. If you have the Twin Power feat, you can use it to manifest Light Burst twice- with one cost. Light burst costs 15 +6 for twinning, and another 3 points to augment the initial manifestation. Due to this augment, each manifestation of the power does 9d6 points of damage, automatically blinds everyone within range, and has the DC of the power increment by +1 on top of whatever it is normally.
I choose Light Burst because it's a light effect- and should bypass any energy resistances- but more importantly for the range. Light burst is a burst effect in an 80 ft radius burst.
More importantly, it can be manifested at range- and if you're transformed into a dragon and flying really high- that can be a boon.
Light burst at 24th manifester level (via Practiced Manifester) has a maximum range of 1,760 feet. Assuming a Wis score of 20, you would be able to manifest a twinned 9d6 light burst 16 times, and still have 19 power points left over- enough to turn into a dragon in the first place.
That's a maximum damage potential of 108 'light' type damage in an 80 ft radius from 1,760 ft away EVERY round for 16 rounds. That's 1,728 damage total.
And through all this you're basically untouchable by that little blinded spec on the ground.
Alternatively, you could turn into, say, a Will'o'wisp, which via metamorphic transfer, can make itself invisible, and also via metamorphic transfer-as an always on power, rather then activated, a will'o'wisp is immune to all spells and spell like abilities that allow a saving through. It also has perfect maneuverability. During the day it's unlikely your enemy will be able to spot you, let alone hit you, as you strobe your way to victory.
As a 20th level manifester with Practiced Manifester (+4 manifester levels feat) manifesting as a 24th level manifester you have two options.
Please reread Practiced Manifester
A maximized, empower, twinned energy ray overchanneled to ML 17 does 297.5 damage. Followed up by a quickened one at ML 13, you do 227.5 damage for a total of 525 damage. Big boom there. A level twenty warblade needs fifty Con to survive that. Of course, you can add another one with schism if you really want (just make sure to get a weapon of legacy with the cunning ability
).Of course you can win that, but that is what came to my mind in 5 minutes, ToB chars can do lot, it is not that easy.
Ardent 20 with the Natural World mantle has metamorphosis. Transform into something aerial- if you've got metamorphic transfer and are feeling cheesy, turn into a 15 HD dragon- you gain all extraordinary/supernatural attacks- and via metamorphic transfer you get the dragon's breath weapon.
Not without burning a use of Metamorphic Transfer you don't. You only get Ex special attacks with Metamorphosis normally.
Alternatively, you could turn into, say, a Will'o'wisp, which via metamorphic transfer, can make itself invisible, and also via metamorphic transfer-as an always on power, rather then activated, a will'o'wisp is immune to all spells and spell like abilities that allow a saving through.
Both the magic immunity and Invisibility are Ex, so you can't get them with Metamorphic Transfer. You'd have to use Greater Metamorphosis. Also, the magic immunity works for spells that allow Spell Resistance. Saving throws have nothing to do with it.
The ardent could do without the Weapon of Legacy ability (and beat someone with it, regardless of initiative) if he can manifest Contingency before hand, and put a Temporal Acceleration into it. That's one trick that psionicists have that even beats most wizard tricks.
Of course you can win that, but that is what came to my mind in 5 minutes, ToB chars can do lot, it is not that easy.
I've noticed that as well. There are some good suggestions though. I like the Energy Ray suggestion too. The character is actually an Ardent/Monk with Talashatar feat, so really it'd be great to hand a ToB character a melee beatdown without having to rely on polymorphing into anything, but I suppose that's just not happening
All ToB maneuvers are Extraordinary abilities right?Tried to make me go "Ardent 20"
and I said ... No , No , No
The link ErhnamDJ provided, also gives "Substitute Powers".
That opens up all, and I mean all, powers to any given Mantle.
This give or take some minor discussion with the DM.
umm ... Flying ... that's allowed right ?!
Leadership for an Erudite Spell to Power cohort.
And a power point recharge set-up.
Long Buff both - recharge - Medium Buff both - recharge - Short Buff both - recharge - Two Novas - Retreat - Did we win yet?
If no recharge - repeat.
**
You are gonna lose this challenge, because the DM will go rule zero on you; not because of ToB.
If your worried about a straight TOB class as a straight Manifester, you haven't seen psychic chirurgery
All ToB maneuvers are Extraordinary abilities right?
unless they specifically note that their use is a supernatural ability, which some do.
Where is island of time from? I can't seem to find any information on it. Whoever has the initiative will win, so if a ToB character can counter anticipatory strike it's fair game.
Trying to keep a ToB from doing a full attack is not going to work either, they will most like have feat or maneauver to do full attacks after the charge. Once they are in range white raven tactics, raging mongoose and time stand still will finish it.
Those don't teleport you a mile over their head (where you buff of laugh or whatever). Teleport in, quickened nuke, schism teleport out. Every turn.
So you really think that ToB chars can't do anything agaist that strategy?
If we speak 20 level builds even ToB char have items. Helm of Teleportation is not that expensive and every 20 char have way to fly->if player knows what he is doing.
So you teleport in, ToB could use island of time do action right away. Move and use Whiteraven Hammer to stun. But it would waste island of time because you could use anticipatory strike to run away so better to take that quickened nuke instead. Altough even that would possible ruin your day with mage slayer and stand still.
Manifester level -6 power is unlikely to kill and afterward you teleport 1 mile upward. ToB can use standard action to follow with helm of teleportation and swift action to Whiteraven tactics to get new action to and two full attacks with time stands still and that turns swift action to belt of battle and full attack again. You can interrupt with anticipatory strike but it doesnt help because ToB will immediately use island of time and get at leats two full attacks anyway. There is room to Mage Slayer and stand still in ToB build so even if you would survive two full attack you would be in bad position. (AoO if you move even 5 foot step(stance), stand still, can't cast defensively)
How far apart do these guys start from one another?
The Ardent could just dispel all his items, if he wanted to play around.
The Ardent can cast an extended Timeless Body every other round if he's really worried lawl.
Do you want to make a ToB build to throw against my Ardent? :D
Well, you would also have contingency from your weapon of legacy.
How far apart do these guys start from one another?
The Ardent could just dispel all his items, if he wanted to play around.
The Ardent can cast an extended Timeless Body every other round if he's really worried lawl.
Do you want to make a ToB build to throw against my Ardent? :D
well this is basically the same as the "fighter vs. wizard" argument, which is a little tired imo. If you're talking a 1 on 1 duel in a infinite featureless plain then of course the ardent wins, because manifesters and casters excel in this type of situation. But this is kind of like the old monty python joke, "of course the penguin is much smarter than than human, if you drop the human in the antarctic ocean naked he will freeze to death in seconds whereas the penguin can generally flourish."
The weakness of an ardent, like every other psionic class, is they run out of power points relatively quickly and then can't do much. ToB classes, especially warblade, never run out of maneuvers and can pretty much fight all day unless they get beat up too badly and can't find a way to heal. So if you want to compare the classes in a more meaningful way, there's your answer.
right?
right?
ToB classes, especially warblade, never run out of maneuvers and can pretty much fight all day unless they get beat up too badly and can't find a way to heal... Except Crusaders, they'll just fight all day.
Fixed.
ToB classes, especially warblade, never run out of maneuvers and can pretty much fight all day unless their opponents happen to have an Intelligence score above 2 and/or any magical ability.
Fixed.
The OP seemed to specify a duel scenario. That's what this thread is about...
This thread is about ensuring Ardent victory oven any ToB build. So it is not enough if your Arent build win against one ToB build, you must win then all. Ardent is generally more powerfull, it is full caster after all, but far from strongest full casters.
ToB classes are strongest melee classes around. Expecially Eternal blade prc.
Ardent is more powerfull, but gap is not huge. So if Ardent make one mistake he can lose.
ToB classes are strongest melee classes around.
Did I miss something? Is this no longer druid (or cleric)?
Sure, here it's always: "I will do this and this and this and that, too!" The answer will allways be: "Then I can do this and that and this again and oh... you loose!" Sure! If you know ahead of time, what your opponent will do, then you will win. Always! But you don't know, what he will do, so... maybe he just comes up with a tactic, against which you have no answer at hand.
So the Ardent we are looking for here must have the best possibilities to answer every possible way a ToB class can go to beat him!
Did I miss something? Is this no longer druid (or cleric)?
I rate them as full casters, they are not stronger because of their melee power, but because of their spells. And i think that if druid or cleric is stupid enough to try melee against ToB char he has chance to lose. Cleric and Druid lack Celerity/anticipatory strike line while ToB have island of time and whiteraven tactics.
Let me just say this, so you folks understand: A ToB character (with no spellcasting) can not beat Shapechange or Greater Metamorphosis. Go look at the Dire Tortoise on page 151 of Sandstorm. On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round. Even if it has already been noticed.
There is no way to beat that. Why? Because on that round, the caster casts Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration. When that spell/power ends, the melee lump is dead. It doesn't matter how; he just is. You can do all kinds of neat little things to kill them, but it doesn't matter.
Oh, you have a ring of spell-battle? (Assuming you even allow that to work on powers. I don't know any way to stop a power) Okay, Anticipatory Strike.
Island in Time? Oh no! Sure am glad I put another Anticipatory Strike in my Contingency for when I say the word, "Boo!"
Well, "Boo," I say. "Boo."
No way to win. This is all just standard fare-- not even close to what would have happened if the caster/manifester had time to prepare. If that had been the case, there'd have been a fissioned copy, making damn sure the guy with a sharp stick couldn't do anything.
Cleric has Celerity through Greater Anyspell, as well as Shapechange, which the druid also has..
I said that if cleric or druid is stupid enough to try melee with... and Ardent doesn't have greater metamorphosis pre epic.
Oh, you have a ring of spell-battle? (Assuming you even allow that to work on powers. I don't know any way to stop a power) Okay, Anticipatory Strike.
Island in Time? Oh no! Sure am glad I put another Anticipatory Strike in my Contingency for when I say the word, "Boo!"
Well, "Boo," I say. "Boo."
Wont work because you have allready used anticipatory strike that round and can use it again only after your normal next turn have passed.
No way to win. This is all just standard fare-- not even close to what would have happened if the caster/manifester had time to prepare. If that had been the case, there'd have been a fissioned copy, making damn sure the guy with a sharp stick couldn't do anything.
Ardent is full caster, but weaker full caster than Psion, Cleric, Druid or Wizard or even Sorcerer. Ardent have limited amount of powers known and can't choose them freely. Expanded knowledge helps, but not with level 9 powers. Psion, Cleric, Druid or Sorcerer can get certain virctory against ToB char (or Ardent) but it doesn't help Ardent.
The Ardent can grab celerity (the spell) with expanded knowledge. Thanks Spell-to-Power Erudite. Whoopee!
As for cleric or druid. They Shapechange, then melee. Or do they not get their 24hr buffs when they attack? (I think the strat is to sunder all the items, then go for the throat)
Some of the posts here like the one that mentioned Ego Whip, and the Energy attacks, have been really helpful. I also thought about just summoning an Astral Construct to help out, or take the Craft Psionic Construct feat to get help. I was looking for ways to survive without having to depend on teammates, but I realize it's impossible to cover every scenario.
The reason I asked about ToB classes as opposed to clr/drd melee was because this character is a monk/ardent with Tashalatora, and his main tactic is to use AMF during combat. Against casters and other gishes that rely on buffs, his natural damage, AC, and grappling tactics will overwhelm them. Against ToB characters on the other hand, I wasn't sure how to handle the fight.
That's all, no need to get into debates over what class is better, etc. Many of the posts have been helpful, I hope some of you learned something from the thread as well
hustle linked power synchronity, anticipatory strike
use Hustle linked syncronity to move close, make full attack. Use immediate Anticipatory strike to get new turn, full attack again. Linked syncronity goes off and you can ready and use action to get safe. Tumble behind friends, teleport away or anything.
Evade attack+psionic mastery feat
Dodge attack as immediate action with 7pp.
Synchronity linked power synchronity, anticipatory strike.
Manifest that Ego Whip or Energy power 3 times. Or 2 times+retreat.
Oh well, the normal version (which they do get) still grants the Dire tortoise's Lightning Strike ability. It's Ex and listed under special attacks. And it's only 160pp or so to keep it up all day. I think the added security is worth the cost.
Works, but it would be quite funny if every high level caster would be polymorhed to Tortoise 24h.
Works, but it would be quite funny if every high level caster would be polymorhed to Tortoise 24h.
They already are. Haven't you ever cast True Seeing at the mage's assembly?
AMF probably isn't the tactic you want to use. They can usually just step back and ruin your day. Against casters... there's not a whole lot you can do other than burn them down fast. That's one thing about them: they're not going to have near as many hit points as a Warblade (if they don't have access to Faerie Mysteries Initiate; if they do, put your head between your legs and kiss your. . .)
AMF can be widened, taking a step back won't do much. Besides, there's really not much they can do against you if you're in AMF, unless they have 3 cleric levels and the Initiate of Mystra feat. Plus you could grapple them, use Stand Still feat, etc.
Again, it's impossible to cover every scenario. Of course there are ways to work around everything.
Again, it's impossible to cover every scenario.
Never played a high level wizard, I take it.
AMF is nigh useless against a caster. They just wear a dome shrunk with Shrink Item on their head. AMF gets near, it shuts down the magic on the dome and it grows to cover the caster, blocking the AMF. And now you have a dome you have to chop through to get to the guy that's teleported away.
Never played a high level wizard, I take it.
AMF is nigh useless against a caster. They just wear a dome shrunk with Shrink Item on their head. AMF gets near, it shuts down the magic on the dome and it grows to cover the caster, blocking the AMF. And now you have a dome you have to chop through to get to the guy that's teleported away.
Of course the Ardent won't be able to cover every scenario, and your one scenario again proves that, that's what I've been saying.
Btw, there is a way to get to your domed wizard, I just find this running around in circle rather boring. I've already said I'm not trying to cover every hole, just as many as I can.
I'm not trying to cover every hole, just as many as I can.
Well, start covering the obvious ones first. Everyone will have planned for an AMF. Maybe that wizard turns out to be a dragon in disguise. You ram into it with AMF and it grapples you. My point is, AMF hurts you more than the enemy most of the time; the HD of monsters far outpaces that of player characters-- they get way more stuff stripped of their magic than you do.
Your class abilities are all devoted to using magic, so don't use something that removes all that. Work with your powers, not against them.
And I'm not sure how you hurt the dome-wizard. You moved up to him, so all you have left (if you weren't charging) is a standard action. And you're in an antimagic field. It would take your standard action to dismiss the field. I guess you could then activate a belt of battle to teleport in, but you'd just be shunted right back out. You could go in ethereal, but really, that wizard's just gone.
And I'm talking about a specific scenario to defeat anything. You find it so hard to believe an Ardent would have a Contingency with Anticipatory Strike all the time? What does he do if Zeus or Odin shows up? How about Doctor Strange? The Ardent is a Full Caster. He has the ability to prepare for anything, so he does. It's the only logical outcome.
Or does this pillar of Wisdom, having a score in the thirties, just not bother with a few defensive abilities?
Well, hell, maybe the ToB guy forgets to open his eyes.
I was looking for ways to ensure victory but it wasn't necessarily a duel setting.
strictly 1v1 no pre buffs.
Hello.
You have to be kidding me. It lasts 1 day/ a level. The Ardent doesn't get ten minutes a week ago?
And I'm talking about a specific scenario to defeat anything. You find it so hard to believe an Ardent would have a Contingency with Anticipatory Strike all the time? What does he do if Zeus or Odin shows up? How about Doctor Strange? The Ardent is a Full Caster. He has the ability to prepare for anything, so he does. It's the only logical outcome.
Or does this pillar of Wisdom, having a score in the thirties, just not bother with a few defensive abilities?
Well, hell, maybe the ToB guy forgets to open his eyes.
Or maybe the duel starts with a CL32 Reaving Dispel to put all contestants on even footing? He said no pre-buffs, and he meant it.
===Aelryinth
Umm... who said no prebuffs and why does it matter that they did?
somebody who was not the OP said that. It does not matter.