First off, I'd like to mention that this work represents the fruits of a joint effort between Doctor Rocktopus and myself. He deserves at least as much credit for this build as I do. I also borrowed heavily from the build which has a level 6 Cleric casting Miracle, as well as other CO techniques to add to our new trick for bypassing PrC / Feat skill requirements.
Greetings to my fellow optimizers,
I have made this thread for two reasons. The first is to make known to the community what I believe to be a new trick for early-entry into prestige classes which Doc Rock and I came up with. The second is to demonstrate how, when applied to an earlier build, it enables us to get the feat Epic Spellcasting at level 6.
The way we make all this work is really quite simple.
Ingredients:
- A casting of Polymorph (scroll, NPC, yourself, etc)
- The Dusk Giant from Heroes of Horror pg. 147
- A casting of Psychic Reformation
- Enough skill points possessed by your character to fulfill all skill pre-requisites.
- Many, many chickens. (Perhaps a commoner with the Chicken Infested flaw? Combine with Leadership for great profit.)
- A Dragonwrought Kobold, or anything else with the (Dragon) type, since anything with the Dragon type which is old or older gets to take Epic feats if it meets the other pre-reqs.
The Recipe:
- Polymorph into a Dusk Giant. You gain the Extraordinary special attack Cannibalize. This lets you gain additional, real (not virtual) Hit Dice by consuming other creatures (chickens), up to 24 HD.
- As a result of your additional Hit Dice, the max rank limits for various skills increases.
- Your friend casts Psychic Reformation to permit you to re-allocate your skills according to your new (higher) HD total. You can now put up to 27 ranks in a skill, which will be enough for most, but not all Epic feats.
- Polymorph expires, you revert to your original form, the extra hit-dice vanish, and you now have skill points allocated (through legal means) in excess of the normal limits. Note: These are skill points from your permanent HD, not from the ones you temporarily gained as a Dusk Giant.
- You get to meet all sorts of feat / skill pre-requisites early.
Without further ado, here's the build I've put together:
Krath, the low-level Epic Spell-Lord
Cloistered Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / Singer of Concordance 2 / Incantrix 2
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold
At level 4, activate the trick to qualify for Incantrix & Skills for Epic Spellcasting, then Dark Shuffle for Epic Casting at lvl 6.
Int: 21 -> 22
Cha: 18
Skill Ranks Required:
- Spellcraft 27 Ranks
- Knowledge (Arcana) 24 Ranks
- Knowledge (Religion) 16 Ranks
- Concentration 4 Ranks
- Total Possessed at lvl 4: 71 (Cleric: 11*4=44) + Wizard (8) + Singer (19)
Domain Required:
- Time (or anything else that grants a feat)
Feats Required:
- Dragonwrought (1st Level)
- Sanctum Spell (Flaw 2)
- Extra Turning (Domain)
- Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell (3rd Level)
- Heighten Spell (Flaw 1)
- Extra Slot (6th Level)
- Iron Will (Otyugh’s Hole)
- Domain Feat > Shuffled to > Epic Spellcasting
Items Required: (13,000 Available)
- Scroll of Polymorph (700)
- Otyugh's Hole [Iron Will] (3,000)
- Psychic Reformation (780)
- Dark Chaos Shuffle (7,400)
- Cost: 11,890
- Chickens / Cows (Affordable)
PS: Doc Rock mentioned, but couldn't remember the mechanics of, a trick involving the Kensai to permanently gain additional BaB. If anyone remembers how this works, could they please post it? These two mechanics together would allow for early entry into just about every PrC ever printed.
PPS: I apologize for the excessive spaces in the formatting, I can't figure out how to get rid of them. 
Sources Used:
- Core
- Epic Level Handbook (Epic Spellcasting)
- Heroes of Horror (Dusk Giant)
- Player's Guide to Faerun (Incantrix Prestige Class)
- Draconimicon (Rule about Old Dragons getting Epic Feats)
- Fiendish Codex (Dark Chaos Shuffle)
- Expanded Psionics Handbook (Psychic Reformation)
- Complete Divine (Divine Metamagic)
- Complete Arcane (Extra Slot, Sanctum Spell)
- Complete Scoundrel (Otyugh's Hole)
- Unearthed Arcana (Flaws)
- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (Undeath & Time Domains)
- Races of the Dragon (Dragonwrought Feat)
13 sources and one dark disco dance later, we have what may be a candidate for strongest (non Theoretical Optimization / Pun-Pun) level 6 character.
Just to avoid potential confusion -- all effects of the extra HD themselves will be gone. What he's talking about is rearranging of your normal skill points.
Any "extra" skill points gained by virtue of your new HD would be lost when polymorph expires.
The only problem, as I see it, is being able to consume THAT many HD worth of chickens!
PPS: I apologize for the excessive spaces in the formatting, I can't figure out how to get rid of them.
Shift-Enter is your friend.
Chicken Infested, Dragon Magazine.
Yep. Chicken-infested commoners would be great, hence why I noted it in my opening post. ;)
Lets see. I wanted 40 27 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) Spellcraft so that I could have four two epic spell slots per day. This means that I need to gain 31 18 additional hit die. If chickens are equivilent to Hawks (1 HD) in terms of number of HD, I would have to consume 620 360 chickens in a single day. I reckon that a dusk giant like that could eat at least one chicken every other round, resulting in 2 hours, four minutes one hour, twelve minutes of chicken eating.
Edited to reflect max of 24 HD.
Only problem with the build is that a dusk giant caps at 24 HD, limiting skill ransk to 27.
Ah, you're right. Missed that. The trick still works however, and I've edited the original post to reflect lower skill point totals.
I reckon that a dusk giant like that could eat at least one chicken every other round, resulting in 2 hours, four minutes of chicken eating.
Umm, no ...
He'll get full at some point. He's only medium, after all.
620 chickens in under 3 hours? Dream on ;)
I reckon that a dusk giant like that could eat at least one chicken every other round, resulting in 2 hours, four minutes of chicken eating.
Umm, no ...He'll get full at some point. He's only medium, after all.
620 chickens in under 3 hours? Dream on ;)
Ring of the bottemless stomach? Sew a bag of holding into your stomach perhaps?
Actually, the Dusk Giant gets to be Large at 12 HD, and Huge at 18. Don't forget that most of the mass from the chickens goes into giving him more hit-dice, so I think eating that many chickens would be reasonable.
Besides, nothing says I can't.
Beyond this specific build, what do people think about the wider implications of this trick? I personally think it has the potential to really revolutionize a lot of PrC based builds, since skill pre-reqs suddenly became possible to meet at much lower than the normal expected level.
I reckon that a dusk giant like that could eat at least one chicken every other round, resulting in 2 hours, four minutes of chicken eating.
Umm, no ...He'll get full at some point. He's only medium, after all.
620 chickens in under 3 hours? Dream on ;)
This is ludicrous and beautiful. Bravo!
Actually, the Dusk Giant gets to be Large at 12 HD, and Huge at 18. Don't forget that most of the mass from the chickens goes into giving him more hit-dice, so I think eating that many chickens would be reasonable.
Besides, nothing says I can't.
A hilarious trick! You two made my day.
*claps hands* Well done. Another wonderful loop hole into granting early access to PrC's among other such goodies. It would be nice if people could start thowing out ideas for further uses of this. Builds or other tricks ect.....
Time to go do some research...... *opens up his pile of books*
I was actually thinking of making a compilation / handbook of techniques for how to enter Prestige Classes early, get it into the handy links thread so that everyone could reference it. There are just so many advantages to getting into PrCs a few (or many, as the case may be) levels early, that a generic "how to" would be quite useful I think.
We have the DMM / Illumian / Sanctum Spell trick for "Cast X Level Arcane / Divine Spells".
We have this trick for " Y ranks".
If I can ever track down the trick for making the Kensai's Instill ability permanent (I'm pretty sure I've seen that referenced) we'll have "BaB +Z" taken care of.
This would only leave "Character Level U" and "Special ability/race/etc. such-and-such" pre-requisites, the latter of which the "Lists of Stuff" thread already helps out with considerably. If I understand the state of things and am not imagining the Kensai trick, than I think that the last major hurdle to entering most prestige classes early has just been overcome.
What is this Polymorph you speak of? It sounds rather broken...
But, yea. This is how Dusk Giants work. I've used them extensively. Their whole point is that they get stronger by eating (and shrink down if they go without eating long enough.)
I'll have to get a sensible picture some day, now that they force one to choose something....
And you never told us about it? Shame on you, Sen, failing to share with the class.
First read, after the board biffs ...
looks to me like this hinges on the PsyRef keeping the higher Skill Ranks cap,
gotten via the Dusk Giant eating routine, inspite of not having the HD anymore.
Besides, nothing says I can't.
This is why you are wrong; nothing says you can't perform actions while you are dead but you still can't.
This trick is interesting from a TO perspective but that's about it.
Couple of really solid ways around that. I hate that argument, by the way. There's excellent information on what being dead entails, in actual fact.
So, you want to see a magic trick?
EG: We'll start at Level 3
- Three class levels
- Level drain to 1
- Gain hitdice from Dusk Giant
- Restoration
- Psychic reformation.
Your Leveling order is now this:
Class level 1/ Dusk Giant HD xxxxx/ Class Level 2
The hitdice drop out from the middle when you switch back. Due to the structure of psychic reformation, the changes you made while you were... well, while you were Under persist because you only moved skill points from levels you'll be keeping. There's no check on the legality of them at any point, no mechanism here by which skills you no longer meet the cap for are removed, and the duration of psychic ref is instantaneous.
No one ever implied this was not TO. That doesn't mean it's not cool. :S
You know, I think that with enough negative levels, that trick could allow for skill ranks in excess of 27. It'd be 27 + Class levels drained away, or 27 + (n-1), where n is character level.
Have an internet then, you've earned it. 
In my land, we often use internets or adorable cat pictures as currency.
What's next, combining Reserves of Strength with Greater Consumptive Field and Chickens Infested?
- A Dragonwrought Kobold, or anything else with the (Dragon) type, since anything with the Dragon type which is old or older gets to take Epic feats if it meets the other pre-reqs.
...
4. Polymorph expires, you revert to your original form, the extra hit-dice vanish, and you now have skill points allocated (through legal means) in excess of the normal limits. Note: These are skill points from your permanent HD, not from the ones you temporarily gained as a Dusk Giant.
...
Cloistered Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / Singer of Concordance 2 / Incantrix 2
...
Feats Required:
- Dragonwrought (1st Level)
- Sanctum Spell (Flaw 2)
- Extra Turning (Domain)
- Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell (3rd Level)
So this requires the ">ECL20 aged dragons are epic" sillyness. Ok
Also the DMM heighten for extra spell levels doesn't work. I mean, maybe somewhere you can find a DM that will allow the required interpretation but its pretty far out there IMO and its definately not RAI. There are less cheezy ways to abuse the extra spell slot feat. As of know the PrC can't be entered, but a similar build still could.
But isn't this just the barghest thing... a little earlier?
While this is similar to the Barghest's Feed ability, it has some important distinctions which make it actually practical to pull off. Creatures consumed don't have to have hit die or level greater than our current total, and it works on non-humanoids.
Dandu: I like that notion. I play in a rather optimized game, and think that an evil necromancer using that trick might make a good villian NPC.
Have a cookie.
The key really is the psychic reformation element, which lets you lay out skill points you know you'll keep. It's still superior to barghest's feed for above listed reasons, being alignment unlocked after all. Now, you can probably couple barghest + psychic reformation, but barghests are hard to become, and their feed ability is an unfortunate type, specifically Su, so you'd need ASA to get it and at that point....
At that point even I'm likely to admit that you're employing madness. The crucial thing about this trick is that it is really incredibly simple.
Can one PAO a corpse of say... a person... into say, the corpse of a dragon?
While this is truly awesome, it wouldn't work. For epic casting, you need the Epic Spellcasting feat, and one of the prerequisites is the ability to cast 9th level spells.
But still, top notch game-breaking.
Oh but we can! We can cast 9th level spells.
That's the whole point of the DMM: Heighten Spell + Sanctum Spell (effectively cast 10th level spells) which lets us use the Extra Slot feat to get a permanent 9th level spell slot.
Its just a slight variation of the old Cleric 6 Miracle build.
Wow. Just... Wow. You get an internet cookie.
Two PAOs gets the Dusk Giant feed ability permanently.
Throw in a rolling feed and PsyRef loop, to get the skills and feats, for as long as the Feed lasts.
Bingo - tight DM problem solved.
Sorry, I'm a bit slow regarding this.
1) Can a permanent PAO be dispelled in an anti magic field?
2) When people use 2 PAOs to make it permanent, I'm guessing the reason for the first PAO is to morph into an intermediate race that's close enough to the target race so that one can stack the duration bonuses for same size/kingdom etc and make use of the +9 duration (which makes it permanent)? So the intermediate PAO does't need to be permanent? If so, what happens if that first PAO expires?
3) Are there anything else considered to be a Dragon type besides true dragons and a dragonwrought kobold?
I believe you cannot have skill ranks in excess of your level/HD +3 in any given skill. This whole concept, while inventive, simply doesn't work. Once you lose the dusk giant levels, your reallocated skill points simply evaporate until you are at the appropriate skill ranks.
Nice try, though. Although using Barghest you could at least try to infer that the cannibal bonuses are permanent.
===Aelryinth
You're not an epic character. You can't take Epic feats unless you're epic, even if you meet the other prerequisites. I have no idea where you came up with the whole "old dragons count as epic" thing, but no such rule exists as far as I've ever seen.
Also, even if you could take the feat, you would likely kill yourself via XP drain trying to develop an Epic spell, assuming you could even amass the wealth in the first place.
EDIT: Decided that Heighten Spell would work to meet the 9th level spell prereq.
You're not an epic character. You can't take Epic feats unless you're epic, even if you meet the other prerequisites. I have no idea where you came up with the whole "old dragons count as epic" thing, but no such rule exists as far as I've ever seen.
Also, even if you could take the feat, you would likely kill yourself via XP drain trying to develop an Epic spell, assuming you could even amass the wealth in the first place.
EDIT: Decided that Heighten Spell would work to meet the 9th level spell prereq.
I'm pretty sure that all of this has already been explained/addressed in the thread...
Also, it is very easy to come up with epic spells that have spellcraft DCs of 0 using the mitigating factors.
I believe you cannot have skill ranks in excess of your level/HD +3 in any given skill. This whole concept, while inventive, simply doesn't work. Once you lose the dusk giant levels, your reallocated skill points simply evaporate until you are at the appropriate skill ranks.
Nice try, though. Although using Barghest you could at least try to infer that the cannibal bonuses are permanent.
===Aelryinth
A reasonable rejoinder that I do not disagree with in spirit. Care to offer a rules cite?
You're not an epic character. You can't take Epic feats unless you're epic, even if you meet the other prerequisites. I have no idea where you came up with the whole "old dragons count as epic" thing, but no such rule exists as far as I've ever seen.
Also, even if you could take the feat, you would likely kill yourself via XP drain trying to develop an Epic spell, assuming you could even amass the wealth in the first place.
EDIT: Decided that Heighten Spell would work to meet the 9th level spell prereq.
I'm pretty sure that all of this has already been explained/addressed in the thread...
The OP mentioned it, but didn't explain it. It looks to me like he just came up with that rule somewhere, but I've never seen it before.
EDIT: OK, I found the rule in question, and it's obviously referring to actual dragons, not creatures of the Dragon type, and obviously referring the True Dragon age category "old", rather than the PC age category "old".
What you've found is not an exploit so much as it is a point at which multiple mechanical terms converge with the same words meaning different things. I'm not impressed now.
I believe you cannot have skill ranks in excess of your level/HD +3 in any given skill. This whole concept, while inventive, simply doesn't work. Once you lose the dusk giant levels, your reallocated skill points simply evaporate until you are at the appropriate skill ranks.
Nice try, though. Although using Barghest you could at least try to infer that the cannibal bonuses are permanent.
===Aelryinth
A reasonable rejoinder that I do not disagree with in spirit. Care to offer a rules cite?
From the SRD: "Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3."
It doesn't refer to how the ranks got there, it just says you can't have more than that many ranks in a skill.
EDIT: OK, I found the rule in question, and it's obviously referring to actual dragons, not creatures of the Dragon type, and obviously referring the True Dragon age category "old", rather than the PC age category "old".What you've found is not an exploit so much as it is a point at which multiple mechanical terms converge with the same words meaning different things. I'm not impressed now.
Keep digging. This is an old debate. You've only scratched the surface. ;)
I believe you cannot have skill ranks in excess of your level/HD +3 in any given skill. This whole concept, while inventive, simply doesn't work. Once you lose the dusk giant levels, your reallocated skill points simply evaporate until you are at the appropriate skill ranks.
Nice try, though. Although using Barghest you could at least try to infer that the cannibal bonuses are permanent.
===Aelryinth
A reasonable rejoinder that I do not disagree with in spirit. Care to offer a rules cite?
From the SRD: "Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3."It doesn't refer to how the ranks got there, it just says you can't have more than that many ranks in a skill.
Favored in Guild and Primary Contact [i][u]EXPLICITLY[/i][/u] render this whole hard and fast rule null and void. There is precedent for exceeding level limits for skills; this method is just a lot faster, with further reaching results. Naldor and Doc, I'd love to see the Kensai trick, as combined with this and my thrallherd build I have knocking about, I could conceivably build Cell as a Kalashtar :P I know BG had a trick with a Cleric dip to get...was it BAB 6 @ Level 1? But BG is on the fritz at the moment, so no way to double check/cross-post it.
I know BG had a trick with a Cleric dip to get...was it BAB 6 @ Level 1? But BG is on the fritz at the moment, so no way to double check/cross-post it.
It's back up. It involved being a dragonwrought kobold (who would have guessed?
) and taking racial substitution levels ahead of when you're supposed to (something to do with dragons automatically qualifying for classes that require the dragonblood subtype without having to meet prereqs).And wow... these are the worst emoticons I've ever seen. Might as well be stick figures. (even those would be better).
I'd be delighted with stick figures.
thank you Novacat. I was pretty sure it was a simple, basic character build rule, and you found it quickly.
==Aelryinth
Favored in Guild and Primary Contact EXPLICITLY render this whole hard and fast rule null and void. There is precedent for exceeding level limits for skills; this method is just a lot faster, with further reaching results. Naldor and Doc, I'd love to see the Kensai trick, as combined with this and my thrallherd build I have knocking about, I could conceivably build Cell as a Kalashtar :P I know BG had a trick with a Cleric dip to get...was it BAB 6 @ Level 1? But BG is on the fritz at the moment, so no way to double check/cross-post it.
These are specific exceptions, not examples which invalidate a rule - specific rules overrule general rules, but only in their specific cases. Thus the general rule regarding maximum skill ranks still applies.
As a DM I would NOT rule that your Skill points simply evaporated, merely that they either A) must be reallocate legally (again) or B) were unusable until you again met the required minumum HD/Level (much like a feat you do not currently meet the prerequisites for), however I see nothing in this build that allows for an exception to the Skill Rank cap.
Couple of really solid ways around that. I hate that argument, by the way. There's excellent information on what being dead entails, in actual fact.
So, you want to see a magic trick?
EG: We'll start at Level 3
- Three class levels
- Level drain to 1
- Gain hitdice from Dusk Giant
- Restoration
- Psychic reformation.
Your Leveling order is now this:
Class level 1/ Dusk Giant HD xxxxx/ Class Level 2
The hitdice drop out from the middle when you switch back. Due to the structure of psychic reformation, the changes you made while you were... well, while you were Under persist because you only moved skill points from levels you'll be keeping. There's no check on the legality of them at any point, no mechanism here by which skills you no longer meet the cap for are removed, and the duration of psychic ref is instantaneous.
No one ever implied this was not TO. That doesn't mean it's not cool. :S
What is the suggested method of level loss? I was thinking Enervation to save on a spell being cast.
I believe you cannot have skill ranks in excess of your level/HD +3 in any given skill. This whole concept, while inventive, simply doesn't work. Once you lose the dusk giant levels, your reallocated skill points simply evaporate until you are at the appropriate skill ranks.
Nice try, though. Although using Barghest you could at least try to infer that the cannibal bonuses are permanent.
===Aelryinth
A reasonable rejoinder that I do not disagree with in spirit. Care to offer a rules cite?
From the SRD: "Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3."It doesn't refer to how the ranks got there, it just says you can't have more than that many ranks in a skill.
Now for this I am thinking that your invested ranks still count, but your bonus from the ranks is capped at HD + 3. So we could quifie for feats PrCs and such, just not add it fully to skill checks.
If for some reason the above rule breaks this would gaining a level in a PrC before you shift out of Dusk Giant allow further advancement? Seeing as you are already in.
- A Dragonwrought Kobold, or anything else with the (Dragon) type, since anything with the Dragon type which is old or older gets to take Epic feats if it meets the other pre-reqs.
What rule is this?
Dragons of at least Old age also can choose these (sic. Epic) feats even if they have no class levels.
Races of the Dragon pg. 39
Kobolds age using the same categories as Dragons (Hatchling through Great Wyrm)
Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons, not humanoids. They also suffer no aging penalties so there is not reason not be be Old.
Ergo, Old Dragonwrought Kobolds (Dragons of Old age) qualify for Epic feats even if they have no class levels
Draconomicon pg. 66 under Epic feats
Dragons of at least Old age also can choose these (sic. Epic) feats even if they have no class levels.
Races of the Dragon pg. 39
Kobolds age using the same categories as Dragons (Hatchling through Great Wyrm)
Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons, not humanoids. They also suffer no aging penalties so there is not reason not be be Old.
Ergo, Old Dragonwrought Kobolds (Dragons of Old age) qualify for Epic feats even if they have no class levels
Thanx!!
I gather it's just for actual dragons and not the dragonblooded, which is regrettable ...
Not "True Dragons of at least Old age..."
So any Dragon (Dragon type) should qualify. Other areas of the Draconomicon specify True Dragon to restrict other Dragon type creatures from access (see Dragon Ascendant PrC), since this doesn't.....