Epic Gestalt Bard - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Epic Gestalt Bard

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
addoaenvar
Apr 30, 2012 15:58:39 I am helping a friend make his bard better. Right now it doesn't do much other than get in the way. The group has two melee beasts, a factotum build that I have not looked over yet, and either a warblade/psion or arcane cannon. I have never played a bard in 3.5, but know the mechanics well enough. All official books and Dragon are open. The only catch is he wants to go into Dirgesinger. Beside that I am thinking either max out inspire courage as best possible or try something along the lines of the War Weaver. I would like to do this without flaws but they are allowed.
#2
Maat_Mons
Apr 30, 2012 16:41:59
Using the words of creation feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) to double the bonus from inspire courage and the dragonfire inspiration feat (Dragon Magic) to convert the +X to attack and damage into +Xd6 sonic damage is the main trick to maximizing inspire courage. There are some other things to add on.

Using the sublime chord prestige class (Complete Arcane) can get 9th-level spells on a bard. You can advance the casting from sublime chord with prestige classes, so you can go with one that advances inspire courage and keep that at near maximum.

What's he looking to combine bard with? Crusader (Tome of Battle) fits well.

It wouldn't hurt to add charisma to as many things as possible.
#3
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 30, 2012 16:47:48
I am helping a friend make his bard better. Right now it doesn't do much other than get in the way. The group has two melee beasts, a factotum build that I have not looked over yet, and either a warblade/psion or arcane cannon. I have never played a bard in 3.5, but know the mechanics well enough. All official books and Dragon are open. The only catch is he wants to go into Dirgesinger. Beside that I am thinking either max out inspire courage as best possible or try something along the lines of the War Weaver. I would like to do this without flaws but they are allowed.

What level? What ability scores? What race? What is his current build so far (the stuff that's fixed)?

You should have no trouble getting into War Weaver and, perhaps, Sublime Chord to get better spells to use with it.

Optimizing Inspire Courage is largely a function of feats - Song of the Heart (EbCS), Words of Creation (BoED), the Badge of Valor (MIC), the Inspirational Boost spell (SC), and the Vest of Legends item (DMG2) are all you need to turn Inspire Courage into a powerhouse. (We're talking on the order of +14 Inspire Courage by level 20 here.) If the bard is dragonblooded, Dragonfire Inspiration lets him sing a variant on Inspire Courage where everything except the bonus vs fear becomes +Xd6 fire damage per hit instead (and if the bard has Draconic Heritage with a sonic dragon - say, the pyroclastic dragon - that's sonic damage instead, which is harder to resist and combines wonderfully with some of the bard's other spells, most notably Creaking Cacophony for +50% (or effectively +21d6) damage per hit.). (Since both DFI and IC linger after you stop singing, you can actually use both of them together in the same battle for up to 5 rounds, or up to 10 rounds with Lingering Song.)
#4
addoaenvar
Apr 30, 2012 18:54:56

What level? What ability scores? What race? What is his current build so far (the stuff that's fixed)?

I don't have his stats right in front of me but he wants human, but I may try to talk him into silverbrow human so I can get him an easy draconic heritage. Level is 20. Currently nothing is fixed. Its a Bard 15/Dirgesinger 5//Swashbuckler 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 17. I think it needs a lot of improvement. Not much synergy and no real purpose when the party has a ghost faced killer and a warblade/rogue. I'm trying to give him a place in the party rather than a redundant member. There is no issue making him a melee bard. I think an inspire bard may be better than a war weaver. My idea for his build is Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5/x//Crusader 20. Unfortunately I cannot drop Dirgesinger. I may throw in 1 more level of bard for the bonus feat from the eberron bard.
#5
Maat_Mons
Apr 30, 2012 20:24:52
You could try bard 7 / dirge singer 5 / sublime chord 1 / virtuoso 7 // hexblade 2 / crusader 18.
#6
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 30, 2012 20:33:33 One issue with that approach is that hexblades can't be good but you need Good to get Words of Creation. I'm not sure about the dirgesinger; if that's also nongood, then Words are out (booo...) and this complaint won't matter.

Getting sublime ASAP is a good idea; its casting is frankly amazing. Do note, Addoaenvar, that you can't make good use of Song of the White Raven (except as a swift-action sing ability) in gestalt, since most of those crusader levels will overlap with bardic music levels anyway. (Furthermore, you actually want your swift action free, for effects like Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor, both of which require a swift action to use and improve your Inspire by +1. You can use them together, though - one of them, I think it's the badge, can be used while maintaining Inspire to improve it, while the other (I think that's the spell) must be in place before you start singing to work.
#7
Maat_Mons
Apr 30, 2012 21:00:24
Dirge singer does require a non-good alignment. I was originally going to put paladin of freedom instead of hexblade, until I remembered that. I still forgot about words of creation requiring a good alignment.
#8
addoaenvar
May 02, 2012 20:27:30 So will Song of the White Raven fill in the gaps for inspire courage that the other prc left? That is another +1 if it does. I'm pretty sure there would be no way to convince my friend into playing good aligned anyway. With one evil and the rest neutral, exalted good would be very difficult to play. I like the recommended build from Maat_Mons. I'll run it by my friend when I see him.
#9
Tempest_Stormwind
May 03, 2012 1:41:46
So will Song of the White Raven fill in the gaps for inspire courage that the other prc left? That is another +1 if it does. I'm pretty sure there would be no way to convince my friend into playing good aligned anyway. With one evil and the rest neutral, exalted good would be very difficult to play. I like the recommended build from Maat_Mons. I'll run it by my friend when I see him.

In a gestalt game, Song of the White Raven is less useful, since you can't double-up on bard levels. Basically, look at every one of your levels individually, and see how many of them have levels in Bard or Crusader. That's the effective level of Inspire Courage that Song of the White Raven will buy you. Depending on your gestalt configuration this may or may not be worth it. (The Vest of Legends, however, will work, no matter what your configuration is.)

The reason I suggest caution with the feat is your swift action: You need it free for Inspirational Boost (cast Boost, then sing; if you want the badge it can be activated the following round and still work). Thus, the bigger benefit from Song of the White Raven - being able to fight and trigger Inspire Courage in the same round - is less useful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 addoaenvar Apr 30, 2012 15:58:39	I am helping a friend make his bard better. Right now it doesn't do much other than get in the way. The group has two melee beasts, a factotum build that I have not looked over yet, and either a warblade/psion or arcane cannon. I have never played a bard in 3.5, but know the mechanics well enough. All official books and Dragon are open. The only catch is he wants to go into Dirgesinger. Beside that I am thinking either max out inspire courage as best possible or try something along the lines of the War Weaver. I would like to do this without flaws but they are allowed.
#2 Maat_Mons Apr 30, 2012 16:41:59	Using the words of creation feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) to double the bonus from inspire courage and the dragonfire inspiration feat (Dragon Magic) to convert the +X to attack and damage into +Xd6 sonic damage is the main trick to maximizing inspire courage. There are some other things to add on. Using the sublime chord prestige class (Complete Arcane) can get 9th-level spells on a bard. You can advance the casting from sublime chord with prestige classes, so you can go with one that advances inspire courage and keep that at near maximum. What's he looking to combine bard with? Crusader (Tome of Battle) fits well. It wouldn't hurt to add charisma to as many things as possible.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 30, 2012 16:47:48	I am helping a friend make his bard better. Right now it doesn't do much other than get in the way. The group has two melee beasts, a factotum build that I have not looked over yet, and either a warblade/psion or arcane cannon. I have never played a bard in 3.5, but know the mechanics well enough. All official books and Dragon are open. The only catch is he wants to go into Dirgesinger. Beside that I am thinking either max out inspire courage as best possible or try something along the lines of the War Weaver. I would like to do this without flaws but they are allowed. What level? What ability scores? What race? What is his current build so far (the stuff that's fixed)? You should have no trouble getting into War Weaver and, perhaps, Sublime Chord to get better spells to use with it. Optimizing Inspire Courage is largely a function of feats - Song of the Heart (EbCS), Words of Creation (BoED), the Badge of Valor (MIC), the Inspirational Boost spell (SC), and the Vest of Legends item (DMG2) are all you need to turn Inspire Courage into a powerhouse. (We're talking on the order of +14 Inspire Courage by level 20 here.) If the bard is dragonblooded, Dragonfire Inspiration lets him sing a variant on Inspire Courage where everything except the bonus vs fear becomes +Xd6 fire damage per hit instead (and if the bard has Draconic Heritage with a sonic dragon - say, the pyroclastic dragon - that's sonic damage instead, which is harder to resist and combines wonderfully with some of the bard's other spells, most notably Creaking Cacophony for +50% (or effectively +21d6) damage per hit.). (Since both DFI and IC linger after you stop singing, you can actually use both of them together in the same battle for up to 5 rounds, or up to 10 rounds with Lingering Song.)
#4 addoaenvar Apr 30, 2012 18:54:56	What level? What ability scores? What race? What is his current build so far (the stuff that's fixed)? I don't have his stats right in front of me but he wants human, but I may try to talk him into silverbrow human so I can get him an easy draconic heritage. Level is 20. Currently nothing is fixed. Its a Bard 15/Dirgesinger 5//Swashbuckler 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 17. I think it needs a lot of improvement. Not much synergy and no real purpose when the party has a ghost faced killer and a warblade/rogue. I'm trying to give him a place in the party rather than a redundant member. There is no issue making him a melee bard. I think an inspire bard may be better than a war weaver. My idea for his build is Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5/x//Crusader 20. Unfortunately I cannot drop Dirgesinger. I may throw in 1 more level of bard for the bonus feat from the eberron bard.
#5 Maat_Mons Apr 30, 2012 20:24:52	You could try bard 7 / dirge singer 5 / sublime chord 1 / virtuoso 7 // hexblade 2 / crusader 18.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 30, 2012 20:33:33	One issue with that approach is that hexblades can't be good but you need Good to get Words of Creation. I'm not sure about the dirgesinger; if that's also nongood, then Words are out (booo...) and this complaint won't matter. Getting sublime ASAP is a good idea; its casting is frankly amazing. Do note, Addoaenvar, that you can't make good use of Song of the White Raven (except as a swift-action sing ability) in gestalt, since most of those crusader levels will overlap with bardic music levels anyway. (Furthermore, you actually want your swift action free, for effects like Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor, both of which require a swift action to use and improve your Inspire by +1. You can use them together, though - one of them, I think it's the badge, can be used while maintaining Inspire to improve it, while the other (I think that's the spell) must be in place before you start singing to work.
#7 Maat_Mons Apr 30, 2012 21:00:24	Dirge singer does require a non-good alignment. I was originally going to put paladin of freedom instead of hexblade, until I remembered that. I still forgot about words of creation requiring a good alignment.
#8 addoaenvar May 02, 2012 20:27:30	So will Song of the White Raven fill in the gaps for inspire courage that the other prc left? That is another +1 if it does. I'm pretty sure there would be no way to convince my friend into playing good aligned anyway. With one evil and the rest neutral, exalted good would be very difficult to play. I like the recommended build from Maat_Mons. I'll run it by my friend when I see him.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind May 03, 2012 1:41:46	So will Song of the White Raven fill in the gaps for inspire courage that the other prc left? That is another +1 if it does. I'm pretty sure there would be no way to convince my friend into playing good aligned anyway. With one evil and the rest neutral, exalted good would be very difficult to play. I like the recommended build from Maat_Mons. I'll run it by my friend when I see him. In a gestalt game, Song of the White Raven is less useful, since you can't double-up on bard levels. Basically, look at every one of your levels individually, and see how many of them have levels in Bard or Crusader. That's the effective level of Inspire Courage that Song of the White Raven will buy you. Depending on your gestalt configuration this may or may not be worth it. (The Vest of Legends, however, will work, no matter what your configuration is.) The reason I suggest caution with the feat is your swift action: You need it free for Inspirational Boost (cast Boost, then sing; if you want the badge it can be activated the following round and still work). Thus, the bigger benefit from Song of the White Raven - being able to fight and trigger Inspire Courage in the same round - is less useful.