Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ferinuscarnifexvox Mar 26, 2012 19:52:12	House Rules for Epic Level Progression: - No LA templates/races (Race: Human) - All Characters must take 20 levels of a single base class (Class: Paladin) - If a Variant and/or Trade-In Prestige Classes are available for said base class, you can choose them. (Variant: Paladin of Tyranny, Prestige Class Trade-In: Blackguard) - After our starting point (Level 20) you are allowed to take any class you want, but you have to take each class to the end. - We will level from 20 to 40. At level 40, we will attempt to kill a deity (my saving throws will probably keep me from dying like my party). ***Basically these rules are to make it so that character creation is simple and balanced (I might have done a little to much before )*** --- Standard Level Progression --- 1 Blackguard - Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use, Smite Good 1/day 2 Blackguard - Dark Blessing, Smite Good 2/day 3 Blackguard - Aura of Despair, Command Undead, Lay on Hands 4 Blackguard - Sneak Attack +1d6 5 Blackguard - Special Mount, Sneak Attack +2d6, Smite Good 4/day 6 Blackguard - 7 Blackguard - Fiendish Summoning, Sneak Attack +3d6 8 Blackguard - 9 Blackguard - Undead Companion, Smite Good 5/day 10 Blackguard - Sneak Attack +4d6, Smite Good 6/day 11 Paladin of Tyranny - Smite Good 7/day 12 Paladin of Tyranny - Divine Grace, Deadly Touch 13 Paladin of Tyranny - Divine Health 14 Paladin of Tyranny 15 Paladin of Tyranny - Charging Smite, Smite Good 8/day 16 Paladin of Tyranny - Cause Disease 1/week 17 Paladin of Tyranny 18 Paladin of Tyranny 19 Paladin of Tyranny - Cause Disease 2/week 20 Paladin of Tyranny - Smite Good 9/day I want to play a melee character that is Lawful Evil. I selected this class because I will be the party's face, so my high charisma will really come in handy for this situation (I'll get +8 bonuses on all Saving Throws, and that before we start playing). The part is below is what I plan on becoming next when we play. I feel like my future selections are valid, but maybe I can do better (especially the second one). --- Epic Level Progression --- 21 Bone Knight - Bonecraft Armor, Paladin Conversion, Rebuke Undead 22 Bone Knight - Bone March, Skeletal Steed  23 Bone Knight - Master of the White Banner 24 Bone Knight - Improved Bonecraft Armor  25 Bone Knight - Fill the Ranks 1/day  26 Bone Knight - Bonecraft Weapon  27 Bone Knight - Improved Bonecraft Armor  28 Bone Knight - Exoskeleton of Undeath  29 Bone Knight - Death Strike 1/day 30 Bone Knight - Improved Bonecraft Armor I am thinking Bone Knight is the way to go for the following reasons: 1. All the requirements are in-class (Convinent!) 2. My Mount levels even higher now (My main tool, since I'll be taking the Mounted Combat feat-chain) 3. Bone Knight has 9/10 casting, and a decent BAB (Casting Levels, What seperates a Paladin from the normal fighters) 4. Immunity to what my saving throws don't cover (Because shrugging off a fireball isn't enough ) 5. More advancement in Turning/Rebuking (A minion or two can't hurt, great flavor factor for when I take over a town)
#2 New-Shadow Mar 26, 2012 21:22:23	Unless I'm missing some information from your end, there are a few problems with your build.  First, after 20, Saves and BAB only go up every other level (I think its odd levels for saves and even for BAB, but it could be the other way around), reguardless of what is normally listed for the class.  Two, Both Blackguard and P.T. have INDEPEDENT Spell lists of Paladin of Tyranny, meaning you have a CL of 19, not 39.  Third, each Smite is based on the level of its' RESPECTIVE CLASS, meaning all those Smites...will only do an extra 10 damage each, and thus be near useless to you. For a Slightly better class in this situation than P.T., try Divine Oracle from Complete Divine.  Evasion in heavy armor, Uncanny Dodge and its improvement, the Oracle domain, and cannot ever be surprised are some of the goodies this class gives.  More importantly, it's full casting.  Another thing to grab would be the Ambush feats, since your Sneak Attack dice aren't very many, and Stuff like Hamstring from Complete Warrior might help more often. I'll see if I can't find anything else to help you out.
#3 Maat_Mons Mar 26, 2012 21:53:06	Many classes are poorly designed and are not actually good all the way through. To implement your concept with a class that's good past the first few levels, I'd go with champion cleric (Unearthed Arcana), favored soul (Complete Divine), or crusader (Tome of Battle). If you can use Dragon Magazine, the crusader variant cleric (Dragon 311, p50) is also right up your ally.
#4 ferinuscarnifexvox Mar 27, 2012 19:52:42	First, after 20, Saves and BAB only go up every other level (I think its odd levels for saves and even for BAB, but it could be the other way around). First time progressing past level 20, I thought that meant for a single class (like taking 21+ level in Cleric). My stats will be lower than expected, but not by much. Two, Both Blackguard and P.T. have INDEPEDENT Spell lists of Paladin of Tyranny, meaning you have a CL of 19, not 39. That was just a typo, for some reason I put that in by mistake. If my casting level was 39, I wouldn't need a deity anymore. Third, each Smite is based on the level of its' RESPECTIVE CLASS, meaning all those Smites...will only do an extra 10 damage each, and thus be near useless to you. Talked to our Dungeon Master, he said that like classes will stack for the casting level. That means Blackguard/Paladin will stack, but Pious Templar will not (unless I find some other Fighter-type base class that knows smite... Divine Barbarian?). For a Slightly better class in this situation than P.T., try Divine Oracle from Complete Divine.  Evasion in heavy armor, Uncanny Dodge and its improvement, the Oracle domain, and cannot ever be surprised are some of the goodies this class gives.  More importantly, it's full casting.  Another thing to grab would be the Ambush feats, since your Sneak Attack dice aren't very many, and Stuff like Hamstring from Complete Warrior might help more often. That sounds like good advice, never thought about Divine Oracle. Since I will not be getting much BAB, maybe trying to get a full BAB PRc is a waste of time. Do Caster Levels go past 20 for a single class?
#5 draco1119 Mar 27, 2012 20:40:59	Do Caster Levels go past 20 for a single class? Yes.
#6 Maat_Mons Mar 27, 2012 22:22:18	The divine might feat (Complete Warrior) lets you spend a rebuke undead attempt as a free action to add your cha modifier to damage for 1 round. The epic divine might feat, which you can take at 21st level, doubles the bonus damage and increases the duration to effectively the whole battle. Here are some items that are generally useful at high level. Show Belt of magnificence (+6): +6 enhancement bonus to all ability scores, 200,000 gp, Miniatures Handbook p42 Cowl of warding: continuous mind blank and freedom of movement, 200,800 gp, Magic of Faerun p156 Displacement armor: 50% miss chance, +100,000 gp special ability, Oriental Adventures p122 Feathered Wings: fly at double land speed with average maneuverability, 10,000 gp fiendish graft, Fiend Folio p210 Gemstone of fortification (heavy): immunity to critical hits and sneak attack, 35,000 gp + limited wish, Draconomicon p83 Hathran mask of true seeing: continuous true seeing, 75,000 gp, Unapproachable East p57 Soulfire armor: immunity to death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects, +4 special ability, Book of Exalted Deeds p112
#7 ferinuscarnifexvox Mar 28, 2012 21:38:19	I see no one has questioned my choice of Bone Knight. I think it is a sound choice to progress my Paladin caster level (especially since BAB is gained every other level regardless of what kind of class I pick).
#8 Maat_Mons Mar 28, 2012 23:16:08	Bone knight offers the second-best set of immunities you can get without losing your con score. The best is warforged juggernaut (Eberron Campaign Setting), but that's race-specific. You could gain all the immunities offered by bone knight by being undead. Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) is the only +0 LA undead template in existence. Losing con does hurt though.
#9 ferinuscarnifexvox Mar 29, 2012 23:13:56	What should I take from 30-40? I think Divine Oracle is an option, but I wanted to know if there were any d10 classes that advanced spellcasting while giving me some good fighting abilities (Blackguard/Paladin's give saving throws, Bone Knight gives immunities). We are going to be facing a deity when we reach level 40... so I kind of need as many ways not to get pwned while attacking the opponent.
#10 Maat_Mons Mar 30, 2012 1:56:24	Chameleon (Races of Destiny) gets you up to 6th-level spells in 10 levels. You get access to all arcane and divine spell lists. You also get +6 to any ability and a bonus feat, both changeable every day.
#11 New-Shadow Mar 30, 2012 12:21:47	Dragonslayer from Draconomicon is a good choice: 5/10 casting at all odd levels, d10 HD, resistance 10 to all non-Force energies, and DR 3/-.  All this for Dodge, Iron Will, and 2 ranks in Tumble (you already meet the other prereq.s').  There's also a general feat in the book that gives you DR 3/- or increases any DR you have by three or so.  There might be something similar to the feat in DMG.  Also, the feats Extra Smite and Saphire Smite might be worth looking into.
#12 ferinuscarnifexvox Apr 01, 2012 17:28:03	I guess the plans have changed, our DM just wants a high-powered campaign. He is making our characters Gestalt now, and we are starting at level 10. The rules or more or less the same, you have to take the class at least to the 10th level. My New Idea: Level 1-10: Blackguard/Rogue 10 (Blackguard ranks traded from Paladin) Level 11-20: Paladin of Tyranny/ Bone Knight 10 (Bone Knight will make up for the traded ranks, Paladin gets a 19 CL) I can't take 2 Prestige Classes at once, which kind of limits my choices to 2 Base vs. 1 Base + 1 PrC. The Blackguard does get around the limitation of Prestige Classes, allowing the build to remain at least similar because the Prestige Class was used upfront due to trade-in.
#13 Maat_Mons Apr 01, 2012 18:57:10	You have to have 11 levels in paladin before you can trade paladin levels for blackguard levels. If you're starting at level 10, you can't start with paladin levels already traded for blackguard levels. If you take paladin levels opposite bone knight levels, and you have bone knight advance paladin casting, it's a waste. You'll get +1 level of paladin casting from paladin and +1 level of paladin casting from bone knight. These overlap to just +1 level of paladin casting for that gestalt level. Since you like cha to saves, you could start with 10 levels in shaman (Oriental Adventures). Shaman is a lot like cleric and gets cha to saves at 5th level.