Shifter Saint Druid16/Moonspeaker3/Fist of the Forest1/Contemplative1/Swordsage2/Warshaper1
The shifter druid sub levels take away wildshape(except elemental) and animal companion. I figured that wildshape was pretty subpar when compared to Shapechange.
He is an unarmed/natural attack melee tank with 526hp and full druid casting.
I have changed many things so far and due to a DM ruling have some options:
Bracers of Armor cannot be enchanted with armor properties. I would really like soulfire and a couple other enchantments to bolster my defenses. Of course, Fist of the Forest doesn't allow armor to be worn to gain the con to AC bonus(which is 17 for me). I could drop fist of the forest and warshaper and have 2 open levels and free up a couple of feat slots, but would lose the delicious 17 points of AC. With the bonus, my AC is 74(unbuffed).
If I keep the levels as they are, then I can't get the really nice defenses like soulfire, etc.
Here are some more details, there are a variety of houserules in effect, so don't worry about things that look like errors(too many inherent bonuses, too many feats, etc):
Stats:
Str: 24/26 (6 pts +6 belt +4 tome/+2 shift)
Dex: 22 (4 pts +2 race +2 tome +6belt)
Con: 44 (16 pts +6belt +6 beast spirit +2 miracle +5 tome +5 level +2 saint)
Int: 14 (2 pts -2 race +6belt)
Wis: 32 (10pts +6belt +2 miracle +1 level +5 tome +2 saint)
Cha: 18 (2 pts -2 race +6belt +4 saint )
AC: 74 (10 base + 11 wis(ss) +11 wis(saint/insight) +17 con(fotf) + 6 dex +10 armor +5enhancement(MV)+5 natural -1 flaw)
HP: 118 + 408= 526
Defences: Immune to acid, cold, electricity; Resist 10 fire, sonic; Fast Healing 10; DR 10/evil; Immune to crits/stunning(when shifted)
Senses: Darkvision 60'; Lowlight Vision
BAB: +15(+2 epic attack bonus)
Saves:
Fort +40 (15 base +17con+5 resist+1luck+2epic)
Ref +23 (7 base+6dex+5 resist+1luck+2wild instincts+2epic)
Will +30 (13 base+11wis+5 resist+1luck-2Wild Instincts+2epic)
Feats:
1(bonus) Able Learner
1 Longtooth Elite
1 (Druid bonus) Alertness
3 Power Attack
5 Craft Wondrous Item
7 Shifter Multiattack
9 Ex Shifter Trait: Razorclaw
11 Quicken Spell
13 Leap Attack
15 Imp Bullrush
16 (Moonspeaker Bonus)Augment Summoning
17 Practiced Spellcaster: Druid
19 Shock Trooper
21(SS Bonus) Imp Unarmed Strike
21 (SS Bonus)Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw
21 Improved Spell Capacity
23 Multispell
Flaw(Wild: Panic when pinned, entangled or bound): Nymph's Kiss
Flaw(Shaky): Great Fortitude
Flaw(Vulnerable): Touch of Golden Ice
Attacks:
Melee: Unarmed Strike +30 1d8+13 + Golden Ice(DC41)
Full Attack/Pounce: Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike +31/+26/+21 1d8+43+1 Con +Golden Ice; Claw/Claw/Bite +29/+29/+29 1d8+49(2)+Golden Ice, 2d6+49+1 Con+Golden Ice
Using a Necklace of Natural Attacks and Superior Magic to get some weapon buffs on all my natural attacks.
I know that giving up my companion and wildshape takes away some power, but I am not worried about that. I have Shapechange. So the question is, is Fist of the Forest worth it?
-AS-
EDIT: Made huge changes to original post/changed the subject.
+6 from the belt probably is enhancement bonus, so it does not stack with Bite of the Werebear. Also, raging is a bad option as you can't cast spells while in rage and spell>rage.
Bite of the Werebear just bumps it up another 2. I would like to have something that compensates for rage. I am not too worried about spellcasting while raging though, this guy is a frontline tank.
-AS-
For a sample AC case: 10-1 (size)+23 (natural)+26 (wisdom)+1 (monk)+8 (greater luminous armor)+9 (dex)+5 (deflection)+8 (natural enhancement)= 89 with only Shapechange, Greater luminous armor, Owl's insight and Bite of the Werebear active and using Monk's belt.
All that totals to a good amount of hitpoints (most likely more than your Fighters have) and good AC.
I think you are better off with great AC and good constitution rather than relying sheerly on constitution. Pit Fiend is a good wildshape choice with starting con score of 27. Add in Bite of the Werebear, +5 inherent bonus and shifter bonus and you already have 42, which is plenty. Then just proceed to buff your AC.
For a sample AC case: 10-1 (size)+23 (natural)+26 (wisdom)+1 (monk)+8 (greater luminous armor)+9 (dex)+5 (deflection)+8 (natural enhancement)= 89 with only Shapechange, Greater luminous armor, Owl's insight and Bite of the Werebear active and using Monk's belt.
All that totals to a good amount of hitpoints (most likely more than your Fighters have) and good AC.
Unfortunately, this is not what I am after.
-AS-
~Bowen
Since you're focusing on Con, maybe take a look at the Fist of the Forest PrC from Complete Champion?
~Bowen
I definitely second that. No idea why I didn't remember it...
Moonspeaker is okay, but I can't find anything in there that is that much better than increasing the shifter beast spirit ACF(which grants a lot of really nice benefits). 3 levels of it look to be great, though, and synergizes with the Rapid Summoning aspect of the Beast Spirit ACF.
Anyone have any ideas on increasing Constitution? That is really what I am after.
-AS-
A monk's belt does not add your wisdom bonus to your armor class as well..
It simply adds a +1 bonus to your armor class, because if you notice it says it gives a non monk character the ARMOR CLASS BONUS of a fifth level monk..
The monk class has a special ability called ARMOR CLASS BONUS, and it increases every fifth level.
So that means the monks belt does not allow you to add your wisdom to your armor class.
ANd even if it did, your build is still wrong.
Your character in said build is WEARING ARMOR. Even the monks wisdom ability does not work when a character is wearing armor.
No way at all that your character's armor class gets even close to what you have listed
Sorry to break it to you
A monk's belt does not add your wisdom bonus to your armor class as well..
As you will soon see in the other thread you created, this is wrong. A monk's belt does in fact add your wisdom bonus to your AC. See this thread for full details: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1008335
Your point about wearing armor is correct, however. The monk's belt will not give you Wis to AC when encumbered or wearing armor. But I don't see him wearing armor. Greater Luminous Armor is a spell, not an actual suit of armor.
Of course, TShern was suggesting Greater Luminous Armor which is a spell and not actual armor.
Half right, Bloodofgods. Read the FAQ p56 ... Monk's Belt does indeed add WIS to AC. It does not work with armor.
Of course, TShern was suggesting Greater Luminous Armor which is a spell and not actual armor.
AH! Thank you for clarifying with me everyone.. I have a NAZI Dm and does not allow many things that he feels are "broken" such as the monk's belt on druid characters... ANd yet he allows people to play wizards... confusing to me.
Anyways, I do have one other question about the armor class bonus that the man posted above.
When shapechanged as you mentioned, you have a bonus that is +26, and next to it is says size bonus? Is this a mistype or is that a true size bonus to armor class, or is the +26 (I think it was) a bonus from your natural armor?
When shapechanged as you mentioned, you have a bonus that is +26, and next to it is says size bonus? Is this a mistype or is that a true size bonus to armor class (which to me doesn't make sense)
The type of bonus is listed to the RIGHT of each bonus. So the size bonus is -1, and the +23 refers to the pit fiends natural armor. He also lists a +26 for wisdom, which I have no idea how he got so big.
The type of bonus is listed to the RIGHT of each bonus. So the size bonus is -1, and the +26 refers to the pit fiends natural armor.
AH this is what I thought it was, and if that is the case it was +23 from natural armor and then +26 from your wisdom..
A +26 bonus to from your wisdom bonus means a wisdom of 62...
how is this possible? He listed owl's wisdom but no other items? Are we assuming you are using a tome of wisdom and maybe a periapt of wisdom?
Thanks for everyone's patience, and every day I read these threads it makes me want to play a broken druid again
AH this is what I thought it was, and if that is the case it was +23 from natural armor and then +26 from your wisdom..
A +26 bonus to from your wisdom bonus means a wisdom of 62...
how is this possible? He listed owl's wisdom but no other items? Are we assuming you are using a tome of wisdom and maybe a periapt of wisdom?
Thanks for everyone's patience, and every day I read these threads it makes me want to play a broken druid again
I don't have a clue how he got such a huge wisdom, its probably just an error. But thing thing to realize here is that its the spell "ShapeChange" that is broken here, not the druid. A cleric could pull off the same trick, basically.
I don't have a clue how he got such a huge wisdom, its probably just an error. But thing thing to realize here is that its the spell "ShapeChange" that is broken here, not the druid. A cleric could pull off the same trick, basically.
OH I agree completely. there's a reason that my DM ALWAYS bans shape change and polymorph..
He thinks (and I agree completely) That any one spell that makes every other melee class in the game worthless should not be allowed.
and Okay, i was just looking over that armor class and thinking 89... I've gotten into the 60's before... but 89? and then i saw the +26 wisdom and said. WOW.... wtf?
Lol thanks for your answers by the way scarymike, you have been a great help to a first timer on the boards
Beasthide Elite
Shifter Defense
Greater Shifter Defense
Extra Shifter Trait(?)
When you've gotten 20th-level casting, there's Weretouched Master(Boar) for +8 Con, +4 will saves, 2 shifter feats and a bite attack in a nice 5 level package. I'd actually recommend that over the Swordsage levels. If you need attribute-based AC, Fist of the Forest is your friend--well worth the rp requirements, which aren't too bad: you're a Shifter Druid living life like an animal. That's awesome rp value.
Would Steadfast Determination be overkill here for Will saves? It would also make you virtually immune to Fort saves.
The type of bonus is listed to the RIGHT of each bonus. So the size bonus is -1, and the +23 refers to the pit fiends natural armor. He also lists a +26 for wisdom, which I have no idea how he got so big.
That was a typo. I meant that if you start with a wisdom score of 18, at level 20 you can have wisdom score of 34 (levels, enhancement and inherent) and if you pump your caster level up to 28 momentarily and cast Owl's insight, you get another +14 to your wisdom. That is to say, wisdom score of no less than 48 for a modifier of 19, not 26.
Don't forget:
Beasthide Elite
Shifter Defense
Greater Shifter Defense
Extra Shifter Trait(?)
When you've gotten 20th-level casting, there's Weretouched Master(Boar) for +8 Con, +4 will saves, 2 shifter feats and a bite attack in a nice 5 level package. I'd actually recommend that over the Swordsage levels. If you need attribute-based AC, Fist of the Forest is your friend--well worth the rp requirements, which aren't too bad: you're a Shifter Druid living life like an animal. That's awesome rp value.
Would Steadfast Determination be overkill here for Will saves? It would also make you virtually immune to Fort saves.
By taking swordsage I can take the Diamond Mind maneuvers and not have to worry too much about saves(since concentration will be maxed anyway).
My concern about fist of the forest is only that in the campaign I might not have the option of leaving a city or sleeping outdoors. I'll have to check with the DM because the synergy between the AC bonus of swordsage(i'm going to have a wisdom in the 30s) and fist of the forest would be nice.
new build
Druid18/Moonspeaker3/Swordsage2/Warshaper2
Con would be 18 con +2 con from beasthide shifter, +4 warshaper, +5 tome, +6 belt, +4 levels, +6 druid sub 1(beast spirit), +8(actually +2) from Bite of the Werebear = 47.
There are no xp penalties in the game, so dipping is fine. I would like to get 3 more points. .
-AS-
you could probably do better with something other than swordsage if those maneuvers are all you are looking for.
air elemental wildshape will net you what you need for reflex too.
you could probably do better with something other than swordsage if those maneuvers are all you are looking for.
The nice thing is, that due to the way IL works, my IL when I take my first level of swordsage will be around 11. I can easily pick up some good stuff with an IL that high. The second level will push my IL to 14, allowing me to pick up things like Shadow Blink and much higher level stances. It will also give me wis to AC.
I am now planning on adding the Saint template(since LA buyoff is in effect). It will cause me to start at 500xp below 25th level, but I am cool with that. In return I get wis to AC again, plus immunities, stat bumps, etc.
Male Shifter Saint Druid17/Moonspeaker3/Swordsage2/Warshaper2
Con would be 18 con +2 con from beasthide shifter, +2 saint,+4 warshaper, +5 tome, +6 belt, +4 levels, +6 druid sub 1(beast spirit), +8(actually +2) from Bite of the Werebear = 49(41 when not shifted/buffed).
I need to check into the fist of the forest stuff, that would bump AC again to a huge amount.
Still looking for untyped/non-enhancement bonus to con items, feats, etc.
-AS-
this is not recommended though, because of cheesyness, roleplaying and balance issues ;)
If you want to be really cheesy, just start as aasimar/tiefling and Polymorph Any Object yourself into a Horned Devil to have inflated ability scores....
this is not recommended though, because of cheesyness, roleplaying and balance issues ;)
Good idea! Too bad Druids don't have a spell that would allow its caster to change his shape or something like that...
- Epic spells
Good idea! Too bad Druids don't have a spell that would allow its caster to change his shape or something like that...
very soon you will have the 4000GP money to have it cast on you by a lvl 15 wizard ;)
(PS; due to being an outsider the duration is permanent)
- Aura of Vitality (SC)
- Epic spells
Excellent! Thats the kind of thing I was looking for.
-AS-
very soon you will have the 4000GP money to have it cast on you by a lvl 15 wizard ;)
(PS; due to being an outsider the duration is permanent)
pretty sure that was sarcasm considering i can cast shapechange.
very soon you will have the 4000GP money to have it cast on you by a lvl 15 wizard ;)
(PS; due to being an outsider the duration is permanent)
I can't tell if you're saying that tongue-in-cheek, but it's mildly funny either way. Ever heard of Shapechange ?
Made some changes. Dropped beasthide shifter trait and added the Saint template. That dropped my hp a little (526/574 shifted). I'd like to squeeze in a level of fist of the forest if the rp will not be a problem in the game. I would have an unarmored, unequipped AC of 51 with that in there.
Changed to longtooth shifter with extra trait razorclaw. I should be able to make 3 unarmed strikes from BAB plus the 3 or 4 natural attacks as secondary weapons as well as an extra attack from snap kick.
Still trying to work this all out. Epic is a bit scary.
-AS-
Epic is a bit scary.
-AS-
You can say that again :P I'm still working out the kinks of [i]my[/] build. It's intense.
Stats:
Str: 28 (6 pts +6 belt +4 miracle +4 warshaper)
Dex: 24 (4 pts +2 race +6belt +4 miracle)
Con: 46/ 50 (16 pts +6belt +6 beast spirit +4 miracle +5 tome +2 Saint +5 level/+4 warshaper)
Int: 14 (2 pts -2 race +6belt)
Wis: 34 (10pts +6belt +4 miracle +1 level +5 tome +2 saint)
Cha: 18 (2 pts -2 race +6belt +4 saint)
AC: 59 (10 base + 12 wis(ss) +12 wis(saint/insight) +18 con(fotf) + 7 dex)
HP: 118 + 384+ 24= 526 (574 shifted)
1(bonus) Able Learner
1 Improved Toughness
3 Touch of Healing
5 Power Attack
7 Improved Init
9 Reactive Shifting
11 Quicken Spell
13 Longtooth Elite
15 Craft Wondrous Item
17 Ex Shifter Trait: Razorclaw
19 Shifter Multiattack
21 Improved Spell Capacity
23 Multispell
Flaw: Great Fortitude
Flaw: Snap Kick
I'm trying to work some kinks out. I will be typically fighting unarmed, using a combination of unarmed strikes and natural weapons. Swordsage gives free Imp unarmed strike, wis to AC maneuvers and weapon focus in both claw and unarmed strike.
The DM allows miracle to add to ability scores and stack with tomes. Also, bonus feats have been adjusted as indicated above. I am debating giving up the warshaper levels for something else, but I'm not sure what. Contemplative is in the running for the bonus domain, but I am not sure at the moment. Something is missing here.
Any input is appreciated.
-AS-
Does Totem Avatar(Shoulders) improve all natural attacks?
Is Open Lesser Chakra is Druid spell?
To the OPer:
Would it be worth a feat or two to have all your natural attacks increase by one size category?
For any who owns Incarnum, questions relevant to this situation:
Does Totem Avatar(Shoulders) improve all natural attacks?
Is Open Lesser Chakra is Druid spell?
To the OPer:
Would it be worth a feat or two to have all your natural attacks increase by one size category?
One of my ACFs increases natural attack die size by 2(which is still crap). Even with the extra feats I am feat starved. Fist of the Forest cost me 2 feats I wasn't planning on taking(power attack, great fortitude).
-AS-
Most recent build.
Nice. I've been thinking about something along this line as well. At first I wanted to get away from druid a bit, but after looking at a few options, like Bear Warrior, Primeval, and the much nerfed Weretouched Master, druid still looks like a winner, even without wildshape! Kudos on the cool build!
I know you're feat starved, but no steadfast determination?
Nice. I've been thinking about something along this line as well. At first I wanted to get away from druid a bit, but after looking at a few options, like Bear Warrior, Primeval, and the much nerfed Weretouched Master, druid still looks like a winner, even without wildshape! Kudos on the cool build!
I know you're feat starved, but no steadfast determination?
He doesn't need Steadfast determination.
Any input is appreciated.
-AS-
At that level, never leave home without a bag filled with Beads of Dire Shifting.
- Ander, did matuty confirm it was +4/stat ? As crescent pointed out, I might very well have been wrong.
- Your strength seems a bit low, though I guess you'll be using Bite of X.
- Touch of Healing seems very weak to me at epic levels. Fast Healing is the name of the game.
- Unfortunately, Saint requires 3 Exalted feats. You could go Feral/Draconic/... instead.
Overall, it seems well rounded. Keep Practiced Spellcaster in mind if you want to do more offensive casting.
Not failing on 1s is nice.
- Ander, did matuty confirm it was +4/stat ? As crescent pointed out, I might very well have been wrong.
- Your strength seems a bit low, though I guess you'll be using Bite of X.
- Touch of Healing seems very weak to me at epic levels. Fast Healing is the name of the game.
- Unfortunately, Saint requires 3 Exalted feats. You could go Feral/Draconic/... instead.
Overall, it seems well rounded. Keep Practiced Spellcaster in mind if you want to do more offensive casting.
Stupid rules...
Luckily I had just rearranged feats and had some open slots. I don't want to lose my Fast Healing 10 or any of the other goodies from saint.Ditched Touch of Healing and a few others to keep saint.
It looks like the wish thing is a total of +4 inherent split between however many stats you want. Changed that as well.
I will typically be using a quickened bite of the werebear to boost my strength to a more reasonable level(40).
Now I have to check and see if Touch of Golden Ice uses standard monster DC calculation or if it stays at DC14....Forcing 7 saves per round at DC 39 would be nice.
Thanks for the feedback!
-AS-
He doesn't need Steadfast determination.
Right you are. Druid, high wisdom.
In a build that doesn't use Saint, cannot afford two +5 tomes, and does not allow wish and tome inherent bonuses to stack, though, it still may be a viable feat. Granted, even a wisdom score of 28 is still really good...
Build critique
You have factored in the +2 LA for the Saint template, but you remember that the next 2 levels of xp after taking the template are lost as well right? I'm afb, but I believe that to be the case.
Also, shifters don't qualify for able learner, its a humanoid [human] only feat
You have factored in the +2 LA for the Saint template, but you remember that the next 2 levels of xp after taking the template are lost as well right? I'm afb, but I believe that to be the case.
LA buyoff from UA is in effect. I end up 500 xp below 25th. The saint template is so awesome its a pretty great trade.
Also,
Moonspeaker advances druid casting(its a druid PrC) and a quickened bit of the werebear is only 10th level(its 6th level for druid + 4 quickened).
-AS-
Con: 46/ 50 (16 pts +6belt +6 beast spirit +4 miracle +5 tome +2 Saint +5 level/+4 warshaper)
how does miracle grant you a stat bonus?
how do you get 5 level increase with LA2?
how does miracle grant you a stat bonus?
how do you get 5 level increase with LA2?
Houserule
ECL 25. And LA buy-off
Houserule
ECL 25. And LA buy-off
ok, that is quite powerful!
maybe consider the Half-Minotaur template from a DrM, grants you huge str and con bonuses due to size increase for only LA +1...
LA buyoff from UA is in effect. I end up 500 xp below 25th. The saint template is so awesome its a pretty great trade.
-AS-
I've just gone over becoming a Saint in more detail, and like I thought before, you have to pay more than just the +2 LA.
"Upon acquiring the template...the character sacrifices her next two levels of advancement in order to "catch up" with the (artificially low) level adjustment of the template. For example, a 7th level paladin who becomes a saint becomes the equivalent of a 9th level character. She must then accumulate a total of 45,000 XP to gain another level, becoming an 8th level paladin and a 10th level character."
When you take the template, you immediately acquire the level adjustment, as well as being required to pay the next two levels worth of XP.
I hope you see what I'm getting at, this is all described on page 29, under Sainthood.
when u acquire it as a 7th lvl pal u have 21k xp but now u've became a ecl 9 character. to lvl up to ecl 10 u must have 45k xp.
it's 45k total xp, it functions exactly like normal LA.
when u acquire it as a 7th lvl pal u have 21k xp but now u've became a ecl 9 character. to lvl up to ecl 10 u must have 45k xp.
Ah, that makes more sense. good.
LA+2 and 45,000xp? That sucks.
Hmm, the more I read this text, the more I think I might have been wrong there. It states that a character with seven class levels takes on the level adjustment, making it ECL 9. That's pretty straightforward. But then it states that this character needs to accumulate 45,000 total xp to level, the equivalent of ECL 10. To me, this seems like what would happen with just a straight +2 LA anyway...
What does it mean by "the character sacrifices her next two levels of advancement in order to "catch up" with the (artificially low) level adjustment of the template." Based on the example given, it just seems like you only had to deal with the +2 LA, which you're buying off anyway...
my guess would be that since it is 3.0, it's just referring to the LA as the character sacrificing her next two levels of advacement, i.e. LA+2.
BoED is very much 3.5. The text is just a bit confusing though...
Male Shifter Druid 15/Moonspeaker3/Contemplative1/Fist of the Forest1/Warshaper2/Swordsage2
Name: Kala Dawntreader
Alignment: Neutral Good
Gender: Male
Race: Shifter(longtooth)
Height: 6’5”
Weight: 270 lbs
Stats:
Str: 24/30 (6 pts +6 belt +4 miracle/+2 shift +4 warshaper)
Dex: 24 (4 pts +2 race +6belt +4 miracle)
Con: 44/ 48 (16 pts +6belt +6 beast spirit +2 miracle +5 tome +5 level +2 saint/+4 warshaper)
Int: 14 (2 pts -2 race +6belt)
Wis: 32 (10pts +6belt +2 miracle +1 level +5 tome +2 saint)
Cha: 14 (2 pts -2 race +6belt +4 saint )
AC: 56 (10 base + 11 wis(ss) +11 wis(saint/insight) +17 con(fotf) + 7 dex)
HP: 118 + 408= 526 (574 shifted)
BAB: +15(+2 epic attack bonus)
1(bonus) Able Learner
1 Great Fortitude
3 Touch of Golden Ice
5 Power Attack
7 Stigmata
9 Healing Factor
11 Quicken Spell
13 Longtooth Elite
15 Craft Wondrous Item
17 Practiced Spellcaster: Druid
19 Shifter Multiattack
21 Improved Spell Capacity
23 Multispell
Flaw: Nimbus of Light
Flaw: Snap Kick
Attacks:
Melee: Unarmed Strike +28 1d8+10
Full-Attacks: Unarmed Strike +28/+23/+18; Claw/Claw/Bite +28/+28/+26; Snap Kick +28
Maneuvers(* readied): First SS level is 21st(IL 11), Second SS level is 24(IL 13)
Rabid Wolf Strike(TC2), Dancing Mongoose(TC5)*, Pouncing Charge(TC5)*, Shadow Stride(SH5), Cloak of Deception(SH2), Burning Blade(DW1)*, Shadow Blink(SH7)*
Stances:
Hunter's Sense(TC1), Prey on the Weak(TC7)
Domain: Competetion/Pride/Luck(not sure yet)
Got rid of Ex Shifter Trait razorclaw since I can get claws via warshaper anyway.
-AS-
no half minotaur?
I don't want to buy off anymore LA, and Saint is about as good as you can get for +2 LA. It doesn't have the stat increases of half-minotaur, but immunity to a couple energy types, fast healing 10, etc make it really sweet.
-AS-
too bad you're missing out on 6 levels of wildshape. if you already have claws, you make em 1 size larger though
I don't have wildshape at all actually. Shifter druid ACF removes it.
-AS-
I don't want to buy off anymore LA, and Saint is about as good as you can get for +2 LA. It doesn't have the stat increases of half-minotaur, but immunity to a couple energy types, fast healing 10, etc make it really sweet.
-AS-
but you dont get to lvl 25 anyways as it is, then it would be way better to slap on the Half-minotaur template anyways.
with the extra LA+1 you would optimize the XP gain from being a level behind ^^
Build
Despite having no wildshape, you still take 15 levels of Druid, which to me seems a bit of a waste, especially since Moonspeaker advances spellcasting and has some pretty nifty class features related to shifting.
The 6th level of Moonspeaker will allow you to apply your shifter trait ability bonus even when you're not shifting. 7th level nets Improved Natural Attack. 9th level gets you a bonus shifter trait. There are other small but nifty class features, and that has to be better than druid levels after level 5, which net you nothing.
Something like Druid 8/Warshaper 2/Contemplative 1/Moonspeaker 9/FoF 1/SS 2? I haven't really worked out the details of that build, but something close to that might work out a bit better I think.
Also, have you tried working out which levels you will take pre and post epic? Hopefully you'll be able to get +16 BAB for that fourth attack.
Really what I am after is the beast spirit sub level which gives a lot of benefits(based on druid level):
+6 to any physical stat, changeable with 1 minute's rest, alertness, +2 rounds shifting, slippery mind, rapid summoning(standard action for summoning spells), swift action casting of 1 extra spell up to 6th level per day when shifting.
Since I am going for a con optimization, the +6 con from the beast spirit is what I am after.
Added the Serpent's Venom feat. This means that my bite attack has 2 poison saves, 1 for venom(1d6 con), 1 for touch of golden ice(1d6 dex) and does 1 point of con damage with a save DC of 39.
Also dumping snap kick. I think 6 attacks that all force dc39 fort saves are enough.
-AS-
EDIT: Oh yeah, even evil creatures immune to poison take the golden ice dex damage. To each 1d6 of dex damage from it, the evil creature's charisma bonus is added also. This should help a lot on evil outsiders, who typically have pretty decent charismas.
Male Shifter Druid 16/Moonspeaker3/Contemplative1/Fist of the Forest1/Swordsage2
Stats:
Str: 24/26 (6 pts +6 belt +4 tome/+2 shift)
Dex: 20 (4 pts +2 race +6belt)
Con: 44 (16 pts +6belt +6 beast spirit +2 miracle +5 tome +5 level +2 saint)
Int: 14 (2 pts -2 race +6belt)
Wis: 32 (10pts +6belt +2 miracle +1 level +5 tome +2 saint)
Cha: 18 (2 pts -2 race +6belt +4 saint )
AC: 55 (10 base + 11 wis(ss) +11 wis(saint/insight) +17 con(fotf) + 7 dex -1 flaw)
HP: 118 + 408= 526
BAB: +15(+2 epic attack bonus)
1(bonus) Able Learner
1 Longtooth Elite
1 (Druid bonus) Alertness
3 Power Attack
5 Craft Wondrous Item
7 Shifter Multiattack
9 Ex Shifter Trait: Razorclaw
11 Quicken Spell
13 Leap Attack
15 Imp Bullrush
17 Practiced Spellcaster: Druid
19 Shock Trooper
21(SS Bonus) Imp Unarmed Strike
21 (SS Bonus)Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw
21 Improved Spell Capacity
23 Multispell
Flaw(Wild: Panic when pinned, entangled or bound): Nymph's Kiss
Flaw(Shaky): Great Fortitude
Flaw(Vulnerable): Touch of Golden Ice
Attacks:
Melee:
Domain from Contemplative(maybe War domain for DP and power words).
Maneuvers(* readied): First SS level is 21st(IL 11), Second SS level is 24(IL 13)
Rabid Wolf Strike(TC2), Dancing Mongoose(TC5)*, Pouncing Charge(TC5)*, Shadow Stride(SH5), Cloak of Deception(SH2), Burning Blade(DW1)*, Shadow Blink(SH7)*
Stances:
Island of Blades(SH1), Prey on the Weak(TC7)
Class Features:
Druid: Beast Spirit(shifter sub1) +6 to physical ability score(changeable with 1 minute), Alertness, Extend Shifting(+2 rounds), Feral Empathy(+4 wild empathy & Handle Animal), Will of the Spirit(Slippery Mind), Transfer Spirit, Rapid Summons(any summoning spell only takes 1 std action), Prepare Spell 6th(memorize 1 exta spell up to 6th level to be cast as swift action when shifting); Reckless Nature +2 initiative and reflex saves, -2 will save; Wild Shifting +5 shifts/day, natural weapons count as 2 sizes larger when shifting; Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, Timeless Body, Elemental Wildshape 1/day
Got rid of wildshape again so that I could get a decent number of shifts/day without burning up all my feats. Added in pouncing/charging stuff. The beauty is that both natural attacks and unarmed strikes can benefit from power attack/leap attack/shock trooper stuff(though at only a x2 modifier or +30 damage per attack). I also now have a free level because I am dumping both levels of warshaper. The almost 600hp were great, but a frenzied berserker could have still killed me in a round. I am also only getting around a +40 to hit, but the damage would be something like 1d8+43+Golden Ice(fort save DC 41). I am currently at 6 attacks per round without haste or anything like that.
Please remember that I also cast as a druid 20 and can summon as a standard action. I am not too concerned about spellcasting, I think things will come down to melee some.
Advice/comments?
-AS-
EDIT: Also, is there a way to enchant an item with weapon abilities that would apply to unarmed/natural attacks?
EDIT 2: Also thinking of adding a spellthief level for the unallocated level. It grants me a d6 sneak attack, which I could use for taking Staggering Strike. With Island of Blades, getting the sneak attack in would be easy and I could stagger the crap out of people.
-AS-
how're you getting +10 armor to AC and fotf Con bonus?
Bracers of armor. Epic ones begin at +11, so +10 ones pre-epic are available.
-AS-
my dmg only has up to +8, what are you calculating the cost for those to be? they have to be custom made, and i could use some... ;)
I just continued the formula of bonus squared x 1000 or 100,000gp. The DMG only has up to +8, but the epic bracers of armor begin at +11
-AS-
I think Shapechange is incompatible with Shifting since it's (Su) and racial, but perhaps you knew that already.
Also, I fear matuty may take out the nerf bat after 1 round of Touch of Golden Ice on an evil angel - I bet he doesn't quite realize what he authorized there...
Also, I fear matuty may take out the nerf bat after 1 round of Touch of Golden Ice on an evil angel - I bet he doesn't quite realize what he authorized there...
I am worried about this big time. One round can drop any angel to a 0 dex (in addition to all of the Con damage).
With 3 buffs, my attack bonus will go up by 12 or so(depending on how DP works with epic levels, I assume it caps at 20). I don't think it would be possible for me to hit my own AC, though.
I was thinking of taking a level of Hierophant and using it to for an SLA, Quickened Divine Power 2/day for the cost of an 8th level slot.
Then again, I might need to redo everything since my focus was originally on massive amounts of hp regardless of everything else. Of course, I also already had the small amount of existing fluff done which was nice. Epic is such a pain..Decisions, decisions....
-AS-
Druid 16/Moonspeaker1/Contemplative1/Sacred Exorcist1/Moonspeaker+2/Swordsage1/Fist of the Forest1/Swordage+1
Have decided to use wildshape/Shapechange simply because I can get more mileage out of my druid spells if I can buff as an animal.
Feats:
1(bonus) Able Learner
1 Extend Spell
1 (Druid bonus) Alertness
3 Power Attack
5 Natural Spell
7 Sudden Maximize
9 Exalted Wildshape
11 Quicken Spell
13 Leap Attack
15 Imp Bullrush
16 (Moonspeaker Bonus)Augment Summoning
17 Persistent Spell
19 Shock Trooper
21(SS Bonus) Imp Unarmed Strike
21 (SS Bonus)Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw
21 Improved Spell Capacity
23 DMM: Persistent
Flaw(Wild: Panic when pinned, entangled or bound): Nymph's Kiss
Flaw(Shaky): Great Fortitude
Flaw(Vulnerable): Touch of Golden Ice
Flaw(): Leap Attack
Taking the good domain to get dispel evil and get into SacExorcist. Planning on Persisting a Sudden Maximized Nature's Avatar(+192hp), Divine Power, Nature's Favor and some others. I have found that the vast majority of epic feats are pretty crappy. Will probably hang out all the time in Dire Tiger form and enjoy some big(ger) attack bonuses. I imagine if I can get a +50 to hit I will be fine.
-AS-
Leap Attack appears twice in your list. If you're worried about ToGI, PM matuty explaining things in detail and see what he'll say - better now than in-game.
The problem is that Wildshape doesn't give you the animal type and that Natural Spell doesn't work while shapechanged (well, I say "problem" but it's actually not a bad idea for it not to work IMO). Shapechange mostly replaces wildshape. But Shapechange kills your shifting.
Hum, I get the feeling you won't like the news. Please don't shoot the messenger. Still, Wildshape + Shifting + Divine Power + Bite of the Werebear should be fairly good though - and you can get back to boosting Con. Keep Aura of Vitality in mind.
Rather than taking Improved Spell capacity take Improved Metamagic. Especially if you're going the DMM route. Two time or three times Improved Metamagic will cut down on your turn attempt use very much. Quickened Owl's Insight a few times per day is arguably better than a 10th level slot that's only really good for Heighten Spell. YES you can have a few bonus 10th level slots, and nothing really stops you from having both, eventually, but I would take Improved MM earlier and more DMM. It may be my preference.
IM requires 30 ranks in spellcraft, which I can't get for a few more levels, unfortunately.
I'm starting to think that at high levels Druids aren't quite as powerful as people make them out to be.
-AS-
IM requires 30 ranks in spellcraft, which I can't get for a few more levels, unfortunately.
I'm starting to think that at high levels Druids aren't quite as powerful as people make them out to be.
-AS-
Missed that on the Improved MM.
Well, it might be the case that a Cleric with animal domain may actually be the stronger character in epic. Shapechange makes Wildshape largely obsolete, you can use DMM from the get-go, and you can still get most, if not all, the good druid buffs via Miracle.
I'm starting to think that at high levels Druids aren't quite as powerful as people make them out to be.
-AS-
Well this is epic, not the same as levels 15-20 (I'm not saying you're right or wrong - I just haven't heard people comment on epic druids).
The Shifter variants deprives you of a companion you could buff with Animal Growth and all the Nature spells. In exchange you get a nice stat boost and a boost for your summons... but you haven't spent resources on making your summons better (Rashemi Elemental Summoning...). That said, I don't even know if it would be better to focus on them.
I begin to suspect that low Epic Druids shapechange into Balors/Titans and use Bite of the Werebear ; or they do battlefield control.
There seem to be a low amount of interest/expertise about low epic here - you could also try the Epic board - to ask about strategies more than pure build optimization ?
The Shifter variants deprives you of a companion you could buff with Animal Growth and all the Nature spells. In exchange you get a nice stat boost and a boost for your summons... but you haven't spent resources on making your summons better (Rashemi Elemental Summoning...). That said, I don't even know if it would be better to focus on them.
Well I have some summons boosters. I can cast any summons as a standard action, all are extended(Wooooo!), all have max hp(which 1/2s the duration), and Augment Summoning. I have been considering taking Ashbound, but I am fairly anti-FR stuff if at all possible. Some of it is a little broken(Greenbound Summoning, Battlejump). I need to stop and think for a bit about some additional focus and stop getting caught up in the details
Thanks for the feedback.-AS-