Erudite gish anyone? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Erudite gish anyone?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lovedbydeamons
Jan 04, 2010 18:03:09 Hello to all. I'm new here on the forums, new to even D&D. my DM has helped me run through a few sessions so far so I pretty sure of all of the rules that will concern my up coming game. I would like your guys' help here on the boards to make a playable (not so quite broken I ruin the game but still powerfull to handle anything) Erudite gish(thas the term for mage/figher right?) 3.5. We are using all books except Tome of battle. I even own most of them as my friend heard I was getting into the game and spent enough money on books for me to feed an elephant for a year. Those that I don't I have exece to. The campaign is gestalt and based on a modern day apocaliptic setting. Technology is now brought about by magic simmilar to Eberron. My DM has ruled that unique powers are per day only, but that I can make a will save power level x 5 to be able to manifest a power when I have no more left. prestige classes can be taken two at a time. And dual casting ones can be taken too.

So far I had thought about going Erudite/Fighter for the feats, Erude/x+daggerspell mage(my DM allows this to be psionic). I had also thought about using the convert spell to power thing-y for mind's eye articles.

Thank you guys for all your help given to this newbie.
#2
phoenix00
Jan 04, 2010 19:28:31 You know your DM just broke the erudite with the Will Save effect.

You have a couple ways to optimize this.

Keen Intellect feat allows you to use your Int Modifer for many things normally based off Wis, including your Will Saving Throw. Assuming you have 18 int at level 1 this is a total +4 to +12 modifer to Will at all times.

Throw in a couple spells (from your party) and your Will Saving Throw is even higher.
Recitation +3 Luck Bonus to all Saves, Attack Rolls, and AC
All Allys within 60ft of Caster 1 round/level, Cleric 4 (Can be persisted)
Superior Resistance +6 Resistance Bonus to all Saves
1 Creature, 24 hours Cleric 6, Bard 6, Druid 6, Sorc/Wizard 6
Conviction +5 Moral Bonus to all Saves.
1 Creature, 10 mins/level Cleric 1

12 from Levels
2 from Iron Will (Get from Otyulgh hole)
12 from Keen Intellect
14 Total bonus from spells is (6+5+3)
=Total Bonus of 40. Thus you can always get an 8th level spell or lower unless you roll a 1 on your d20 will save. You can always add Cumbersome Will from Savage Species for another +6 Bonus, you only need this feat for when you are doing 9th level spells/powers and I have a feeling you are willing to allow yourself to be shaken for the ability to choose the best 9th level spell on the fly.

-----

My advice for you is two things. First you want the arcane erudite option from mind's eye, you get powers and arcane spells this way.

On the other side do cleric and crusader and make your way into Ruby Knight Vindicator. This allows you to do 3 things
1) Continue progressing your divine casting side
2) Allows you to persist spells, purposefully going for persistent Recitation +3 to will save and Holy Transformation +2 to will save, and extended convictions for +5 to will save
3) You gain manuevers at the same rate the normal crusader does. Plus a larger pool of manuevers granted with the randomness factor due to how crusader treats manuevers readied.
#3
lovedbydeamons
Jan 04, 2010 19:43:35 Crusader is out because we can't use Tome of Battle. We don't have it. Another thing the will save maximization can only go so far or else my DM will likely throw something at me, but I would like to see how far he will let me push it. Does the human's bonus feat allow me to take one of the erudite's variants acorrding to the rules? because I can just think of taking spell to power then taking the discipline that I just made: converted powers. If so I need to make an aposed CHA check against my DM to get the discipline in. 9th level powers here we come.

edit: Just thought this up: Take erudite5 on one side and fighter2 monk 1(with that feat you just said makes intel count as wisdom) rogue2 then take mentaldagger phsychic10(our psionic version of daggerspell mage) Ur-priest10 and then finish with psychic theurge5 rouge5
#4
phoenix00
Jan 04, 2010 19:51:10 What level are you playing?

What books are avaliable?

What is your party?
#5
lovedbydeamons
Jan 04, 2010 19:58:50 we start at level 5 and will be going to at least 20, all 3.5 and 3.0 books are avalible but tome of battle and any 3.0 books that have been errataed. My party has yet to be set in stone, but so far one is looking at being a Maug(monster from fiend filio)fighter+spellsword/sorcerer(he will be doing very little in the way of casting besides straight blasting, another will be a barbarian/monk from the looks of it, but as I said they have yet to set their builds.

I just realized we have no healer. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
#6
kell_kheraptis
Jan 06, 2010 6:52:57 Ok, so even with the nerfed UP/LVL/Day now only UP/Day, this can still work. And in fact, at higher levels, it's a nonissue, since you're firing from a main repertoire, not your erudite repertoire (thus no UP/LVL/Day or UP/Day restrictions). When you can, get a Psionic Tattoo of Psychic Chirurgy and another one (on the Psicrystal if need be) of Psychic Reformation. These will ultimately nab every power and spell in the game, when combined with Leadership for Cohorts. Play up on the NPC's not being active, and maybe even use the Artificer trick of letting them stay in a Portable Hole or somesuch, the "Batcave" if you will. Once you have all powers, the magical item Tome of Ancient Lore has every spell in it, ever. And as arcane. Cackle evilly. Cohort+this item+those tats=every spell, ever, just like an archivist with less hassle. Congrats, you now have a solution to damn near any problem in D&D, provided you have the pp to power it.

Phase two, see how deep "Psi-magic Transparency" goes with your DM, and see if you can stack variants. If it's yes and 100%, you're going to want to finish as a Mantled Erudite (since you already have every spell, thus no longer need StP, and why not, nab Telepathy at 5th level too) and select Dominant Ideal in place of your 10th level feat. That's a free metapower effect on every power of that Mantle. Guess what? We can sub mantle powers. Find one that fits with Arcane Spellsurge/Greater Arcane Spellsurge/Celerity etc. Magic seems best, or Time, since technically all of them are screwing with time. Now for the part that breaks the deal in half and stomps it into little bitty pieces (can't get worse you think...think again!) : Incantatrix. You don't lose access to what you have already, and you have every spell, ever. Ban Evocation as lip service, since if you recall, every spell also includes every spell converted to Transmutation by the ACF in UA. I.e. no loss at all, for massive gain.

Phase three, take a look at Body Fuel, in the XPH/SRD. Notice the only requirement to it? Kinda like Hellfire Warlock's hellfire ability, isn't it? How it burns ability scores to restore pp? Not quite...hellfire stipulates you gain no benefit from it if you're immune. Hell, even Reserves of Strength stipulates you take damage if you're immune to daze effects. Mechanics exist stating a secondary effect (or lack of effect occuring) if you are immune to the mitigating factor. No such animal with Body Fuel. Simplest recharge ever, and guaranteed to keep you running until WLD runs out of monsters.

Phase four, even in a gesault game, chances are good this build will absolutely TROUNCE anything anyone is playing. That's fine. We know how to keep the kid gloves on, right? And if nothing else, offer to not gesault. You don't need it, anyway, though doing something like Cleric up the other side would add a lot of durability pre-buffing, and we won't even mention what happens if this is combined with a Druid.

Oh, and as for Gishing it up? How about this buff routine, castable every combat since you're able to stop time (in one more level no less) : Vigor shared with Psicrystal and Familiar if you aquire one, Share Pain w/ Psicrystal and Familiar if you aquire one, Greater Metamorphosis (Pit Fiend is nice) for even more hp, nice AC, possible spell slots, tons of Str, etc, Bite of the Werebear (more Str, Power Attack), Mirror Move (every combat maneuver is now yours, including charger tactics), and really, at the cost of a little Str, Bite of the Weretiger would be even better, allowing pouncing while keeping Power Attack. If you do all of this while Wild Shaped into something vicious (no Metamorphosis needed in this case) you can still manifest quickened powers (since you can take Battle Blessing, sharing a spell list with Paladin), cast spells (Natural Spell), and even cast 2 spells/powers while full attacking (quickened and mental from schism).

Now, your game probably only needs a fraction of this, but with all things being available, Erudites are easily Tier 0, and arguably only matched by the most optimized of Wizards, Arcane Swordsages, and Psionic Artificers. As he is above, a gesault Druid/Super-Erudite would eat even 2E Simbul alive with ease, and then slap Shar for making the Shadow Weave, just because he can.

Hope this helps, and hopefully if you do go all out, you don't get DMG beamed!
~Kell

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lovedbydeamons Jan 04, 2010 18:03:09	Hello to all. I'm new here on the forums, new to even D&D. my DM has helped me run through a few sessions so far so I pretty sure of all of the rules that will concern my up coming game. I would like your guys' help here on the boards to make a playable (not so quite broken I ruin the game but still powerfull to handle anything) Erudite gish(thas the term for mage/figher right?) 3.5. We are using all books except Tome of battle. I even own most of them as my friend heard I was getting into the game and spent enough money on books for me to feed an elephant for a year. Those that I don't I have exece to. The campaign is gestalt and based on a modern day apocaliptic setting. Technology is now brought about by magic simmilar to Eberron. My DM has ruled that unique powers are per day only, but that I can make a will save power level x 5 to be able to manifest a power when I have no more left. prestige classes can be taken two at a time. And dual casting ones can be taken too. So far I had thought about going Erudite/Fighter for the feats, Erude/x+daggerspell mage(my DM allows this to be psionic). I had also thought about using the convert spell to power thing-y for mind's eye articles. Thank you guys for all your help given to this newbie.
#2 phoenix00 Jan 04, 2010 19:28:31	You know your DM just broke the erudite with the Will Save effect. You have a couple ways to optimize this. Keen Intellect feat allows you to use your Int Modifer for many things normally based off Wis, including your Will Saving Throw. Assuming you have 18 int at level 1 this is a total +4 to +12 modifer to Will at all times. Throw in a couple spells (from your party) and your Will Saving Throw is even higher. Recitation +3 Luck Bonus to all Saves, Attack Rolls, and AC All Allys within 60ft of Caster 1 round/level, Cleric 4 (Can be persisted) Superior Resistance +6 Resistance Bonus to all Saves 1 Creature, 24 hours Cleric 6, Bard 6, Druid 6, Sorc/Wizard 6 Conviction +5 Moral Bonus to all Saves. 1 Creature, 10 mins/level Cleric 1 12 from Levels 2 from Iron Will (Get from Otyulgh hole) 12 from Keen Intellect 14 Total bonus from spells is (6+5+3) =Total Bonus of 40. Thus you can always get an 8th level spell or lower unless you roll a 1 on your d20 will save. You can always add Cumbersome Will from Savage Species for another +6 Bonus, you only need this feat for when you are doing 9th level spells/powers and I have a feeling you are willing to allow yourself to be shaken for the ability to choose the best 9th level spell on the fly. ----- My advice for you is two things. First you want the arcane erudite option from mind's eye, you get powers and arcane spells this way. On the other side do cleric and crusader and make your way into Ruby Knight Vindicator. This allows you to do 3 things 1) Continue progressing your divine casting side 2) Allows you to persist spells, purposefully going for persistent Recitation +3 to will save and Holy Transformation +2 to will save, and extended convictions for +5 to will save 3) You gain manuevers at the same rate the normal crusader does. Plus a larger pool of manuevers granted with the randomness factor due to how crusader treats manuevers readied.
#3 lovedbydeamons Jan 04, 2010 19:43:35	Crusader is out because we can't use Tome of Battle. We don't have it. Another thing the will save maximization can only go so far or else my DM will likely throw something at me, but I would like to see how far he will let me push it. Does the human's bonus feat allow me to take one of the erudite's variants acorrding to the rules? because I can just think of taking spell to power then taking the discipline that I just made: converted powers. If so I need to make an aposed CHA check against my DM to get the discipline in. 9th level powers here we come. edit: Just thought this up: Take erudite5 on one side and fighter2 monk 1(with that feat you just said makes intel count as wisdom) rogue2 then take mentaldagger phsychic10(our psionic version of daggerspell mage) Ur-priest10 and then finish with psychic theurge5 rouge5
#4 phoenix00 Jan 04, 2010 19:51:10	What level are you playing? What books are avaliable? What is your party?
#5 lovedbydeamons Jan 04, 2010 19:58:50	we start at level 5 and will be going to at least 20, all 3.5 and 3.0 books are avalible but tome of battle and any 3.0 books that have been errataed. My party has yet to be set in stone, but so far one is looking at being a Maug(monster from fiend filio)fighter+spellsword/sorcerer(he will be doing very little in the way of casting besides straight blasting, another will be a barbarian/monk from the looks of it, but as I said they have yet to set their builds. I just realized we have no healer. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
#6 kell_kheraptis Jan 06, 2010 6:52:57	Ok, so even with the nerfed UP/LVL/Day now only UP/Day, this can still work. And in fact, at higher levels, it's a nonissue, since you're firing from a main repertoire, not your erudite repertoire (thus no UP/LVL/Day or UP/Day restrictions). When you can, get a Psionic Tattoo of Psychic Chirurgy and another one (on the Psicrystal if need be) of Psychic Reformation. These will ultimately nab every power and spell in the game, when combined with Leadership for Cohorts. Play up on the NPC's not being active, and maybe even use the Artificer trick of letting them stay in a Portable Hole or somesuch, the "Batcave" if you will. Once you have all powers, the magical item Tome of Ancient Lore has every spell in it, ever. And as arcane. Cackle evilly. Cohort+this item+those tats=every spell, ever, just like an archivist with less hassle. Congrats, you now have a solution to damn near any problem in D&D, provided you have the pp to power it. Phase two, see how deep "Psi-magic Transparency" goes with your DM, and see if you can stack variants. If it's yes and 100%, you're going to want to finish as a Mantled Erudite (since you already have every spell, thus no longer need StP, and why not, nab Telepathy at 5th level too) and select Dominant Ideal in place of your 10th level feat. That's a free metapower effect on every power of that Mantle. Guess what? We can sub mantle powers. Find one that fits with Arcane Spellsurge/Greater Arcane Spellsurge/Celerity etc. Magic seems best, or Time, since technically all of them are screwing with time. Now for the part that breaks the deal in half and stomps it into little bitty pieces (can't get worse you think...think again!) : Incantatrix. You don't lose access to what you have already, and you have every spell, ever. Ban Evocation as lip service, since if you recall, every spell also includes every spell converted to Transmutation by the ACF in UA. I.e. no loss at all, for massive gain. Phase three, take a look at Body Fuel, in the XPH/SRD. Notice the only requirement to it? Kinda like Hellfire Warlock's hellfire ability, isn't it? How it burns ability scores to restore pp? Not quite...hellfire stipulates you gain no benefit from it if you're immune. Hell, even Reserves of Strength stipulates you take damage if you're immune to daze effects. Mechanics exist stating a secondary effect (or lack of effect occuring) if you are immune to the mitigating factor. No such animal with Body Fuel. Simplest recharge ever, and guaranteed to keep you running until WLD runs out of monsters. Phase four, even in a gesault game, chances are good this build will absolutely TROUNCE anything anyone is playing. That's fine. We know how to keep the kid gloves on, right? And if nothing else, offer to not gesault. You don't need it, anyway, though doing something like Cleric up the other side would add a lot of durability pre-buffing, and we won't even mention what happens if this is combined with a Druid. Oh, and as for Gishing it up? How about this buff routine, castable every combat since you're able to stop time (in one more level no less) : Vigor shared with Psicrystal and Familiar if you aquire one, Share Pain w/ Psicrystal and Familiar if you aquire one, Greater Metamorphosis (Pit Fiend is nice) for even more hp, nice AC, possible spell slots, tons of Str, etc, Bite of the Werebear (more Str, Power Attack), Mirror Move (every combat maneuver is now yours, including charger tactics), and really, at the cost of a little Str, Bite of the Weretiger would be even better, allowing pouncing while keeping Power Attack. If you do all of this while Wild Shaped into something vicious (no Metamorphosis needed in this case) you can still manifest quickened powers (since you can take Battle Blessing, sharing a spell list with Paladin), cast spells (Natural Spell), and even cast 2 spells/powers while full attacking (quickened and mental from schism). Now, your game probably only needs a fraction of this, but with all things being available, Erudites are easily Tier 0, and arguably only matched by the most optimized of Wizards, Arcane Swordsages, and Psionic Artificers. As he is above, a gesault Druid/Super-Erudite would eat even 2E Simbul alive with ease, and then slap Shar for making the Shadow Weave, just because he can. Hope this helps, and hopefully if you do go all out, you don't get DMG beamed! ~Kell