I need help settingt my evil desert-based TWF fighter who will become a dervish. His unmodifed stats are Str 16; Dex 16; Con 18; Int 15; Wis 14; Cha 14. So I change my Con and Dex score around so I can get more out of TWF? I am also going to take the Winged Template starting out so I can have wings.
Say the mantra with me now:
What level are you starting? What books are allowed? What's your team? Are there any houserules?
Sorry for emphasis, but this is kind of important information for us to keep working on.
Here's my observations.
1) Your ability scores are incredible (in the literal sense).
2) Read the Dervish Handbook.
3) Consider the Tome of Battle; Desert Wind is a perfect match for you (it's an entire desert-themed combat school that has a solid movement focus in it). People remember it for its fire attacks, but it does more than that. Splash in Tiger Claw (which works well for TWF synergy) and you're golden even without aiming for Dervish.
I need help settingt my evil desert-based TWF fighter who will become a dervish. His unmodifed stats are Str 16; Dex 16; Con 18; Int 15; Wis 14; Cha 14. So I change my Con and Dex score around so I can get more out of TWF? I am also going to take the Winged Template starting out so I can have wings.
Say the mantra with me now:
What level are you starting? What books are allowed? What's your team? Are there any houserules?
Sorry for emphasis, but this is kind of important information for us to keep working on.
Here's my observations.
1) Your ability scores are incredible (in the literal sense).
2) Read the Dervish Handbook.
3) Consider the Tome of Battle; Desert Wind is a perfect match for you (it's an entire desert-themed combat school that has a solid movement focus in it). People remember it for its fire attacks, but it does more than that. Splash in Tiger Claw (which works well for TWF synergy) and you're golden even without aiming for Dervish.
I am starting at first level. All of the books are allowed. My team is that of all 1st level characters. They are a Barbarian, Cleric of Hextor, Rogue, and a WarBlade. There are no houserules. The Winged Template gives me a +2 Dex?
The winged template uses up two levels, so you can't have it on a 1st-level character. Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon) or raptoran (Races of the Wild) would give you wings without using up levels. With those, you gain the ability to fly gradually.
I need help settingt my evil desert-based TWF fighter who will become a dervish. His unmodifed stats are Str 16; Dex 16; Con 18; Int 15; Wis 14; Cha 14. So I change my Con and Dex score around so I can get more out of TWF? I am also going to take the Winged Template starting out so I can have wings.
Reading the bolded text now makes me think it sounds like someone using the Desert Wind maneuvers in ToB. Other then that I start thinking Scout (CAdv) perhaps with some Ranger thrown in before hitting the Dervish class.
As for the rest of it your DEX is already very high especially when you also have the STR to go along with it to turn you into a superhero. Your character is starting out with TWO Characters worth of stats (ePB 56) and I'd be treating him as if he had a +2 LA just based on those. The Winged Template also inlcudes LA with it under the RAW which would cause your first level character to be viewed as a higher level character under many metagame rules.
For feats keep in mind the following, Two Weapon Fighting (Get improved from gloves of the balanced hand), Shadow Blade (Dex to Damage), Combat Reflexes (Get additional attacks when people are dumb). There are a pile of other options but those are solidly some of the best for two weapon fighting.
Why should I forget about becoming a Devish?
You shouldn't. You should just be aware that the class has horrific prerequisites, isn't very user-friendly, and takes a long time to mature. You can make a dervish work, but generally speaking you'd be better off looking into alternatives.
Basically, the dervish is a way to move around and still keep attacking. However, you can do the same sort of thing with the advanced Spring Attack feats from the PHB2. (It can get expensive to do this with a two-weapon fighter, though.) You can also do the same sort of thing from lower levels using the Tome of Battle, since it doesn't rely on full attacks to actually contribute to battle effectively. A handful of its moves - particularly those in the Desert Wind school, which fits your theme quite well - basically amount to Dervish Dance on their own, except they're usable on a per-encounter basis with a recharge rather than a per-day basis with no recharge. (Example: Desert Tempest, which lets you move your speed and make an attack against any enemy you move past.)
It's sort of like wanting to make a samurai-type character, and latching on to the Complete Warrior Samurai or the Sword and Fist Master Samurai instead of using, say, a Diamond Mind / Iron Heart / White Raven warblade (which is essentially the same thing as a samurai thematically, but lacking a mechanical handicap). Do not get caught up in the name of a class - you can be a mobile, desert-themed, scimitar-wielding whirling dervish without levels in the Dervish class.
Dervish isn't awful. It just didn't age well.
Feats are the pinnacle thing here I'll assume non-bonus feat race for starters, you can see how to fix that if you want bonus feats for race or flaws.
Show
1 Shadow Blade (Dex to Damage, ToB), Weapon Focus (all Shadow Hand Weapons, given free for level 1 Swordsage)
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Two Weapon Fighting
9 Combat Reflexes
12 Adaptive Style
15 Extra Readied Maneuver
18 Gloom Razor
Use Gloves of the Balanced hand to get Improved Two Weapon Fighting and don't worry at all about Greater, it's not worth it.
1 Shadow Blade (Dex to Damage, ToB), Weapon Focus (all Shadow Hand Weapons, given free for level 1 Swordsage)
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Two Weapon Fighting
9 Combat Reflexes
12 Adaptive Style
15 Extra Readied Maneuver
18 Gloom Razor
Use Gloves of the Balanced hand to get Improved Two Weapon Fighting and don't worry at all about Greater, it's not worth it.
I am still staying with the TWF.
Did you notice how Andarious' build DID get TWF? It just came online a bit later - because TWF alone is hard to work with, especially at level 1. In its place, his build would use Wolf Fang Strike, which lets you move and attack with both weapons at a lower penalty.
If you want it online sooner, switch when you get TWF relative to Shadow Blade. You'll dish out next to no damage at low levels without using your strikes, though.
This same problem is present on the dervish, particularly the whirling dervish versions (TWF-focused; the alternative is the Power Dancer, which tends to use a falchion). The dervish gets a lot of attacks, but none of them do particularly good damage. The usual rule is to NOT use TWF unless you have a source of bonus damage on each attack. That's why, if you read the Dervish Handbook I linked above, a lot of the whirling dervishes dipped Swashbuckler for three levels - so your scimitars deal Int+Str damage on each hit. In Andarious' build, we instead use Shadow Blade, giving you Dex+Str damage, so you don't drift too far away from your core ability scores.
That would give Str+Dex+two-handed Power Attack with both ends of a double scimitar.
EDIT: Forgot that Revenant Blade does not dovetail with Shadow Blade. So my suggestion would instead be Ranger2/Barb1/Warblade2/Revenant Blade5/Warblade +10 or something similar (Eternal Blade for the last 10 levels, perhaps?)
How would taking some ranger levels help him out?
If you're asking why Draco's uses Ranger, here's why.
1) You get the basic Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free at level 2, even if your Dexterity isn't high enough. (Since you can get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting from a pair of gloves in the MIC, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting will almost never hit, generally speaking you can actually stop here - and this lets you build a TWFer that's purely dedicated to Strength if you want. And if you DO want to go further in the TWF tree, then it's still a bonus feat, and that helps ease the load a lot.)
2) Ranger gets all the right skills needed to enter Revenant Blade, which was the whole point of Draco's build because Revenent Blade really is that awesome, but has somewhat tricky skill and feat requirements to get in (you need a bonus feat from somewhere to qualify by level 5, and you need 5 ranks in a number of stealth skills; Ranger gives you both of these.)
(Generally speaking, some combination of ranger, fighter, barbarian, and warblade gives you the best lead-up to Eternal Blade. You want warblade for Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water, you want Barbarian for Pounce (Complete Champion), you want fighter to ease the feat burden a bit, and you want ranger for the skills and to help out with the feats, and rarely for Endurance (not on its own, but as a prerequisite to Steadfast Determination, which adds your Constitution modifier to your Will save. Between this and the TWF/gloves approach above, you can actually make a Str/Con focused TWFer if you want and still have all your bases covered.) Which balance of these classes you want in just 5 levels, and their timing, is generally up to the player; it usually works best to start out with ranger though, since you want that for the skills and those are quadrupled at 1st.)
We've got the following.
Swift Ambusher or Swift Hunter (Scout blended with Rogue or Ranger to get better use out of Skirmish and or Sneak Attack)
Revenant Blade (Various lead ins to make a Str primary Two Weapon build that power attacks and pounces in crazy multi weapon charges)
Shadow Blade (Dex Primary build that gets bonus damage from various boosts and maneuvers)
Are any of these concepts appealing?
I'm smelling a window for Aptitude Weapon here.
I don't know that it would work in that example, because both Insightful Strike and Legendary Force are class features, not feats. Aptitude Weapon specifically states "feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as...[list of feats]".
So here's another potentially useful question: Would Shadow Blade be considered to "affect the use of a particular type of weapon"? If so, then you could get Str+Dex+2h PA on a double scimitar.
Is that used via the weapon aptitude to count the scimitar as a dagger to add the dex on?
Pretty much. Shadow Blade only works under certain conditions, one of which is wielding a "favored weapon" (I forgot the actual term) of the Shadow Hand school. If that counts as a feat that "affects a particular type of weapon", then slapping it on a doubles scimitar would allow you to use the Shadow Blade benefits, provided all other conditions were met.
I think I want to go to level six as a ranger.
That's a bad idea unless you're planning to specialize in ranged attacks. And even then it's still probably a bad idea. All those extra 4 levels are going to give you is a weak animal companion, a feat you don't need, and minimal spellcasting. Granted, you'll also get +4 BAB, but there are ways to do this that give you better options. good example would be a level in babrbarian (grants Pounce and the ability to rage), 2 levels of Warblade (maneuvers are always good), and a level of Revenant Blade.
I think I want to go to level six as a ranger.
That's a bad idea unless you're planning to specialize in ranged attacks. And even then it's still probably a bad idea. All those extra 4 levels are going to give you is a weak animal companion, a feat you don't need, and minimal spellcasting. Granted, you'll also get +4 BAB, but there are ways to do this that give you better options. good example would be a level in babrbarian (grants Pounce and the ability to rage), 2 levels of Warblade (maneuvers are always good), and a level of Revenant Blade.
I would be better off starting out as a Barbarian then? I want have some good powers beside just the TWF feats if possible.
@Arindurth: No, starting out as a Ranger is a very good idea. What they are trying to do is talk you out of taking more levels of Ranger than you might need. What they are suggesting is Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Warblade 2/Rev. Blade 1 as opposed to taking 6 levels of ranger before the Rev. Blade. There aren't too many reasons beyond wanting a specific Alternate Class Feature (or ACF) to stay in a base class if you can PrC out.
Good powers, you say? Warblade 2 gives Uncanny Dodge, maneuvers, a d12 HD, a boost to Ref. equal to your Int modifier, and host of other abilities. A Barbarian also gives a d12 HD, in additition to Rage at 1st level. That's not including the Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion; there's a reason that that particular ACF is used for 'Port and Pounce (aka builds that mimic the attack style of Nightcrawler of X-Men fame).
Speaking of ACFs, you might be interested in couple of Ranger ACFs that will definately help you long term. The Arcane Hunter ACF from Complete Arcane converts your Favored Enemy bonus to go against anybody who uses arcane spells, as well as spell-like and supernatural abilities that mimic arcane spells (please note that this doesn't bar you from taking levels in an arcane casting class). If you use Dragon Magazine, the Mystic Ranger variant from #336 gives you major spellcasting abilities (access to a custom list of 0 and 5th level spells), and a decent host of other goodies, but with a few drawbacks. If you want 4 levels of Ranger, you can get Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor, and cast arcane spells from the Wiz/Sorc list.
There are other options to help your Ranger spellcasting and add other Awesome abilities, but Knight of the Raven and Sanctified Mind both require you to be good. If you're playing with Psionics, going into Warmind from XPH might not be a bad idea, not only for the Sweeping Strike ability, but for the other good stuff too.
This character is going to be a desert based mercenary who is deadly at duel-wielding scimitars.
To be deadly at dual-wielding scimitars takes three things.
1) A lot of bonus damage per hit.
2) A lot of feats sunk merely in performing this trick. (Especially if you use standard scimitars instead of a double scimitar)
3) The ability to move while making multiple attacks.
You are not going to get all three of these by any reasonable level if you're aiming for Dervish and getting all of the things you're looking for in this laundry list. (We said this on page 1 and page 2.)
What would be the best way to give him a pair of wings?
Play a Raptoran or Dragonborn with the wing aspect. These are base races that get wings naturally, but you don't start out with the ability to fly. You grow into it over time. Critically, these are LA +0 races. If you're okay waiting, a Savage Species ritual can apply the Winged template to another race, but this template in and of itself costs you a level or two. (We said this on page 1.)
A more obscure method involves just two feats: Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambrace) and Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). Binding that to your arms chakra will give you one Astral Construct Menu A ability, one of which gives you physical wings. It's not a great fly speed, though - probably not worth two feats. I only mention it because it's available to any race without a level cost, but the feat cost is intense.
Would being under the permanent effect of a haste spell help him out?
Yes and no. It's insanely costly for some extra effect, but easily dispelled and it doesn't actually help you move and full attack.
Would getting the feat Weapon Focus (scimitar) and related feats help my character out?
Only if you have room to spare. They're sometimes useful but to even consider more than Weapon Focus involves Fighter levels, and those will largely be a trap since fighters do not do 1 and 3 very well. (A couple levels can really help with 2, though.)
What would be some good spell-like abilities or him to have since I want him to have some spell-like abilities to help him out in combat?
None. They're really too costly for a warrior-type to obtain, and you're already spending all your resources on dual wielding big weapons and trying to do so while moving. You'd need something like three characters all at once to afford all of this.
We suggested several possible builds along the way. Draco's Revenant Blade approach (Ranger2/Barbarian1/Warblade2/Revenant Blade5/Warblade or Eternal Blade +10) is probably the best for you - use the Revenant Blade's bonus feats (Ancestral Guidance ability, especially with its amulet) to cover for the feat cost for Shape Soulmeld and you can even add wings to the mix. If your DM is already lax enough to put up with you (given how you didn't bother reading anything we wrote and simply replied with tweet-sized single-sentence questions which were already answered, or single-sentence responses that indicated you weren't listening), make the single request that the Revenant Blade's Legendary Force ability apply to scimitars as well as double scimitars, and you're golden.
The far simpler approach is simply to play a single-classed swordsage, focusing on Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, and possibly Diamond Mind maneuvers. Take Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat, but do not take improved or greater TWF - those attacks will almost always miss, and you can use Gloves of the Balanced Hands to get Improved TWF anyway. This also frees up points from your Dexterity to put into Strength. Play a raptoran or dragonborn to get the wings. As a side effect, Desert Wind includes several supernatural effects that are all desert-themed (there's your spell-like abilities), favors the scimitar (and gives Weapon Focus in it for free if you make the right choices), and gives you lots of movement and speed options (the Desert Tempest maneuver is basically Dervish Dance on steroids, the Flashing Sun maneuver is similar to Haste, and so on). The one drawback to this approach is that your attack bonus will be lower, but your character will be more diverse and distinctive given what I know of your party.
I still feel if you don't like these choices that a swift hunting ambush really could fit your character, using swordsage to get the ambusher part, if your interested I could throw something together
I could make a Revenant Blade that can beat up your Swift Ambusher.
Interesting and maybe but I wouldn't underestimate the swift ambusher
I'll referee. Go ahead and decide amongst yourselves what starting level you want; you'll start with DMG wealth for that level as well. Any level higher than 1 can accept level adjustments provided you pay for them. Use me for specific DM calls; I promise here in public that I will be neutral but reasonable.
Use 25PB (15/14/13/12/10/8). Assume all 3.5 books are available except Unearthed Arcana (too unpredictable) and Weapons of Legacy (while I really like it in an adventure, for a show-down it's not useful, shifting the brunt to evaluating a weapon rather than a character); if you want a specific ban or a specific allow, request one with me. While I consider extra-action cheese to be unsporting it is not banned.
One area I would shy away from is templates. Try to stick to standard, LA+0 races with no templates (unless your gear provides that - i.e. Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis).
Once the characters are done, we'll decide how to evaluate them - cheers from the crowd, fight to the death with standard/agreed-upon rules (possibly in multiple scenarios and/or with standard (out-of-the-DMG) NPC allies), or in terms of raw damage potential against a CR-average training dummy. We'll iron that out once they're done.
Let's make this an old-school style, regulated throwdown.
Only stipulation: Draco must use at least one level of Revenant Blade (which does limit your starting level somewhat as they can't be entered before 6th level), and frost.fire must use the Swift Ambusher feat.
Shall we run this in a week?
I'm in. I don't really care what level we do it for, though my personal preference is 20. Should we go RAW for all things, including XP penalty? Can we ask for assistance, if necessary?
Yes, I should have mentioned, drop that. Very few people play with it anyway, and it's kind of tricky to regulate.
If you can get a build without it, that'll be a bonus on the grading scheme.
Other XP penalizing effects like level adjustments and item creation still cost XP as normal. And if you use the thought bottle for this I will find you and things will not be pretty.
