Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 siranui Jun 20, 2009 4:23:33	First of all: Hi. I stumbled across this board yesterday while pondering future feat purchases! I thought I'd post up (one at a time!) a couple of my current and proposed builds for your consideration and comments Firstly though, it's worth pointing out that I'm more interested in character concepts than raw power. I tend to come up with a concept and then hammer a bunch of classes together in order to get a good 'fit'. I also don't like playing any of the wacky races, and I tend to stick to Humans and Elves. Anyway, here's my current build for a 'blammy' caster, currently at 7th level (still with no Fireball...). The character is of noble birth, college trained and a bit of a pyromaniac. Spellcasting has suffered, but the sheer volume of spells becoming available is making up for it. Level 1: Human Evoker 1 with 'double specialisation' [PHB2]. Necro, Charm and illusion schools dropped. Starting feats: Spellcasting Prodigy. Precocious Apprentice [Fire burst] Familiar subbed out for class ability from Dragon (can't remember the name), giving a bit of a bonus with Evocation when carrying a 'focus' item (a sword). Scribe Scroll has been subbed out for Elemental Focus (fire) [Unearthed Arcana]. It's a bit lame, but I couldn't find anything better which fitted. Stats (as of 7th level): Str 9, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 16. Lawful Neutral [Respects the social order, because he's at the top of the pile!] Level 2-4 Human Paragon. Martial weapon prof: sword [A weapon of nobles, and it ties in with my focus sword thingy]. 10 skills not on my normal arcane caster list were chosen, along with Diplomacy as a permanent class skill [Noble birth, remember...] Bonus feat: Searing spell [Sandstorm] 3rd level feat: Fiery burst Stat bonus: INT (duh!) Level 5 Sorcerer 1. Familiar subbed out for the spellshield ability, allowing me to soak damage by burning sorc spells. Initial spell selection: Ray of enfeeblement [Necro spell otherwise unavailable], Protection from evil [Just too good to refuse!] Level 6-7 Ultimate Magus 6th level feat: Focus (Evocation) Further sorc spells have been Featherfall [You never know when you'll need it!] and Magic missile [from my wizard spellbook, thanks to class feature] Future plans: Fireball next level! I'll be sticking with UM all the way, and then dropping in some master specialist levels somewhere. I can't see the game going on longer than that, and aren't planning for it (although I'd have 3 levels to 20...). Sorc spell selection will be used to cover prohibited schools [Invisibility, mirror image, etc], provide a little extra firepower [more fireballs] and be used for metamagic and spellshielding. I plan to take some downtime in order to retrain my Precocious Apprentice feat now it's essentially useless. I was considering opting for Fast metamagic, as it will have to be taken at some point, so as to quicken spells on-the-fly. 9th level feat: Arcane Thesis [Fireball]. The character is going to be rather built around blowing things up! 12 level feat: No idea yet, really. I have a few ideas, but I'm open to suggestions. Theurgic Specialist is the benchmark to beat [From dragon magazine]. 15th feat: That's a long way away.... Class bonus metamagics: Quicken spell will certainly be the second one that I take. I'm unsure what to take first, though. Suggestions? Bear in mind that I'll be using it on 'fireball' quite a lot, and can use my class feature to 'fuel' it. Magic Items: It's a pretty low magic campaign, with named and unusual items being the norm. Currently I'm carrying: The Silver Tongue: +5 bluff/diplomacy (Diplomacy total: +23 [Not bad for a caster!]: 9 ranks + 6 synergy + 3 statistic +5 item) Ring of Arcane Might: Dragon magazine item. +4 spell levels worth of spells. Divination now a prohibited school for both Wizard AND sorc [!]. Mask of Alouiun Vision: Dancing lights, flare, light at will, 3x day Cure light wounds 1d8+5. Other powers unknown. Tome of worldly memory: +5 on knowledge checks, 3/day. As a purely academic exercise, how does this rate, what would you do differently, and what would you fill those spare 3 levels with, assuming that I only take master specialist to 3rd level?
#2 CantripN Jun 20, 2009 5:46:23	Read this: Ultimate Magus Guide Short version: Take Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) and get almost full Wizard casting.
#3 siranui Jun 20, 2009 6:20:16	I like it. Although I've missed the boat slightly and will only be saving myself 2 levels of wizzy now instead of 3 by taking PS. Serves me right for assuming that the text mean 'lowest level of spellcasting' rather than 'lowest caster level'. I hadn't considered PS for Sorc before on the build, as I was intending my sorc spells to be more utilitarian, and thus 10CL would have been enough. I'll avoid persistent metamagics though, as I think it is a bit too cheesy. It's past 'optimal' and straying into 'broken' in my book. As a side-note, I'm aware that using a pure caster as an artillery piece is a bit sub-optimal. But it sure is fun, and something that I hadn't done for a couple of Editions!
#4 cragghunter Jun 20, 2009 21:07:50	If you are artillery sculpt , enlarge, explosive metamagics, are your friends. also have you ran up against fire resistance yet it is pretty common ? I know you have searing spell which helps but you might thank about some other ways to counter it. Persistent spell broken ? To cheesy? you're a Wizard ,look at some of your spells you can have at first level from core . 0 level prestidigitation just to name one but I guess each too there own play on have fun.
#5 dr_rocktopus Jun 20, 2009 23:36:39	I'm a big fan, myself, of UM silliness. It's a great class. I recommend relying on rod of quicken and abusing the heck out of sanctum spell, which lets you treat a spell as though it was a spell level lower, effectively. Doesn't save you a slot. But it does bork the way metamagic and items and many such things view some of your spells. Fun stuff :: whimper ::
#6 Endarire Jun 22, 2009 10:55:18	Wiz5 with Spontaneous Divination at L5. UM is full progression and then some.
#7 siranui Jun 22, 2009 13:12:19	"If you are artillery sculpt , enlarge, explosive metamagics, are your friends." Ahh... for more feats! Explosive is on the possible list, too. I simply don't have the feats available for sculpt, as I *need* Quicken, and I'm chasing a couple of other more obscure feats, such as Arcane Thesis. "also have you ran up against fire resistance yet it is pretty common ?" Heck, yes. The GM has been quite keen on it. Searing cuts through it nicely, though. Failing that, there's always magic missiles! The campaign is quite heavily anti-undead, so transdimensional spell is also quite a tempting choice. "I know you have searing spell which helps but you might thank about some other ways to counter it." I'd love piercing evocation too, but that's yet another feat. Or there's a level of Paragonistic Apostle and the ability that cuts through resistances of an opposite alignment (which would be Chaotic in my case). "Persistent spell broken ? To cheesy? you're a Wizard ,look at some of your spells you can have at first level from core ." You have to draw a line somewhere, or you might as well just become a total munchkin, and it's where my line is drawn. Persistent spell wasn't a well thought out feat, as various cleric builds demonstrate. And it's also too far off to be viable. Character progression has been pretty slow, and I can't see us playing past 15th-ish, where 3.5 becomes a bit clunky. "0 level prestidigitation just to name one" Great spell for getting your robes clean after a messy fight!
#8 dr_rocktopus Jun 22, 2009 14:33:00	For blasters, my single favorite PrC is War Mage. Adds +3 damage per die to all DD spells you cast. It's fantastic for a variety of other reasons, and comes from the generally excellent dragonlance book Age of Mortals.
#9 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 22, 2009 15:39:11	For a blaster, I agree with Dr R. War Mage is an excellent choice, and could be your "spontaneous" class. (Or is it too late?) Explosive spell is worth the slot. It could fill that 12th level slot. It's no fun blasting things unless they go flying and fall prone afterwards! Otherwise, I have these 2 words of wisdom: Dual threat. Loving to blast is fine, but just blasting, as you say, is sub-optimal. Avoid spells that only do damage, and look for spells which do damage and do other nice things to control the battlefield or debuff your enemies. I did an evocation guide HERE - look for these words "DUAL THREAT"
#10 cragghunter Jun 22, 2009 19:13:51	snip "Persistent spell broken ? To cheesy? you're a Wizard ,look at some of your spells you can have at first level from core ." You have to draw a line somewhere, or you might as well just become a total munchkin, and it's where my line is drawn. Persistent spell wasn't a well thought out feat, as various cleric builds demonstrate. And it's also too far off to be viable. Character progression has been pretty slow, and I can't see us playing past 15th-ish, where 3.5 becomes a bit clunky. "0 level prestidigitation just to name one" Great spell for getting your robes clean after a messy fight! /rant/ I take offense to that , I know you are not calling me a munchkin but saying that taking persistant spell is taking it to far and for the record it is divine metamagic that makes the cleric builds seem overpowered not munchkin . /rant/ If you are going to use fireball as your main spell add something to it if you can retrain spellcasting prodigy out for a metamagic feat .
#11 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 22, 2009 20:03:04	/rant/ I take offense to that , I know you are not calling me a munchkin but saying that taking persistant spell is taking it to far and for the record it is divine metamagic that makes the cleric builds seem overpowered not munchkin . /rant/ I don't think the OP was suggesting that using a persistant spell made you a munchkin. He was saying that if you don't draw the line anywhere you are a munchkin (and lets face it, we all draw the line somewhere). He then said persistant spell is where he drew it. I think you misunderstood his intent, as this: You have to draw a line somewhere, or you might as well just become a total munchkin is simply true. Otherwise every campaign is, "My character is Pun Pun - I win." We all draw the line, we may draw it in different places, but we all draw it somewhere.
#12 cragghunter Jun 22, 2009 20:17:48	I don't think the OP was suggesting that using a persistant spell made you a munchkin. He was saying that if you don't draw the line anywhere you are a munchkin (and lets face it, we all draw the line somewhere). He then said persistant spell is where he drew it. I think you misunderstood his intent, as this: is simply true. Otherwise every campaign is, "My character is Pun Pun - I win." We all draw the line, we may draw it in different places, but we all draw it somewhere. I apolgize if that was the op's intent and fully agree with you BUT I see the words cheesy and munchkin to much on the character optimization board and makes a little crossed eyed vain popping mad cheesy is an opinion and munchkin is cheating . +1 to warmage for your spontaneous class.
#13 siranui Jun 23, 2009 5:12:59	As was said by Treant: Persistent spell just happens to be where my line is drawn. I dare say that you have a similar line, too somewhere. Cheesy is an opinion; but it's my opinion for a character that I'll be playing, so it's a valid consideration in this case. If you like using it and your GM doesn't hate you for doing it, that's fine, but it's not my own cup of tea. *coincidently sips a cup of tea* [Getting OT a little here, but I always find that NOT having the blaggiest character round the table, avoiding some of the more blatantly overpowered and well known rules and builds, and injecting a measure of balance into characters gives you a lot of credit with the GM. And that alone is more effective than being a full BAB, full casting, pouncing, touch AC 80 killing monster with 22+ stats. For some reason, characterful characters who contribute to the story, fit with the rest of the party and don't overshadow everyone else's characters seem to survive -against all statistical likelihood- much longer than hideous killing machines... :D ] Sadly, we're in a Greyhawk campaign, so I think that DrL book are probably out. Although I'll see if anyone has the book anywhere, so I can at least take a look at the class. Plus, I'm now at 7th level, so it's a bit late. After looking through some Dragons and reading the UM thread, I'm probably going to ask the GM is I can retrain precocious apprentice to Practised caster (I was always intending to retrain this feat anyhow), and spell item focus thingy to impromptu metamagic (DR 357). The idea of trading out spellcasting prodigy for metamagic is an interesting one. On the obvious hand, Prodigy gives more spells and raised DC, but in the cold light of day, I already have an awful lot of spells, and DC is not as critical for Evoc as for -say- enchantment. I think that asking to retrain 2 feats and a class feature may be pushing my lucky, though! There's always more great feats than slots available! Any other suggestions for them? It's also about time to start thinking about 2nd level sorc spell selection. I'm leaning towards some of the following: levitate (always used in outdoor encounters, but limited use in dungeon fights), invisibility, mirror image, false life, arcane turmoil, protection from arrows, resist energy, knock, life bolt, curse of impeding blades, dessicating bubble, fly (swift), earth bind, greater alarm, incendiary slime. Invis and mirror image WILL be chosen, as they are unavailable to me otherwise and frankly gold dust.
#14 dr_rocktopus Jun 23, 2009 8:31:27	The one I was referring to is a PrC, and re-examining your build it is indeed too late. But it's a class worth knowing about. The warmage from complete arcane, which was what Treant was talking about, is a pretty neat if somewhat underpowered class, but UM can really make it shiny.
#15 siranui Jun 24, 2009 7:04:32	I was very unimpressed with the warmage in CA. It's like playing a wizard... only in two dimensions!
#16 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 24, 2009 18:57:19	I was very unimpressed with the warmage in CA. It's like playing a wizard... only in two dimensions! The Warmage is good at blasting, mainly falling from the versitility of blasts available spontaneously to the class. As you mention - the reason Warmages "blow goats for pocket change" is that they lack the versatility in function that most other casters possess. A Sorcerer can simply choose spells that have versatility of function. Beguilers have illusion access which provides all kinds of versatility within the school, even Dread Necromancers can provide multi-function spell access. Truly, when it comes to versatility of function, Warmages have a deserved reputation. However, when you add UM, that all changes. With a build, you must look at the whole rather then discect the parts. A Warmage/Wizard/UM has all the versatility of a Sorcerer/Wizard/UM because the wizard provides the unrivaled spell versatility. However, the Warmage build has the better spontaneous access to blasting. If you need a Force/Fire/Frost/Sonic/Acidic/Electric/Bludgeoning spell - the Warmage has them all, in multiple shapes and sizes to boot. Personally, I'm not a big fan of blasting, it's like the Expensive fancy restaraunt with crappy food. You go in with deservedly high expectations, and you leave dissapointed, hungry, and jealous of the guy in the Burger King drive through. Blasts never seem to deliver the devestation you expected, instead lightly damaging your enemies and leaving the fighter to do the real damage. However, if I was to go blaster, then making the Warmage viable is a very reasonable option, and Hybrid PrC's are an excellent choice to do that (with UM being likely your best bet - though I think a warmage ET build could potentially do decently).