CoDZilla has a strong showing at present.
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Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
Tactics must be included on how they are overpowered at each breakpoint listed.
Rules for Character Creation
Any WOTC book can be used ...
Elite Array or 25 pt buy
No Duskblades or Gish with noncaster base classes, this is to compare caster to noncaster
All caster base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters)
All caster PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL
No LA races
No aging characters
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
No Psionic classes
No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc or using things like mage slayer to reduce the minimum CL for items for items purchased ...
No purchasing of class abilities (spells, frenzy, etc) from NPCs. Items (potions, scrolls, etc) that do this are legal. (Added by consensus)
No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry. (Added by consensus)
Please post the build separate from the encounter. This way, if people find issues with the build, then you won't spend time running it first. However, once you run a fight, put links to your fights in the posts that contain your build. This will make things much easier for everyone involved.
Frequently asked questions
Show
Why no Gishes? Using noncaster base classes to prove caster's superiority is backwards.
Why did the aging/elite array get reversed? There was a lot of feedback from the caster community that they could not compete without those mechanisms. Hopefully this will increase the amount of competitors.
Why are we talking about low-level casters? Casters are percieved to be overpowered at all levels. Noncasters believe this not to be true, especially at lower levels when the caster's resources (spells per day / spells known / etc) are more limited. This thread is to try to see if this is true.
Why is the OP making these encounters biased the way he is? Actually, there is no encounter made by me. All encounters are made by other posters.
Where are the CustServ Posts:
Grendyl
Otto
Argaud
Meyer
Fire Riposte+Punishing Stance
What is a spellcaster? A spellcaster is a class that casts spells.
Why isn't a character that uses potions/wands/scrolls/etc considered a spellcaster? Because the spells that result from items originate externally to the character.
That makes no sense. Basically, if a commoner (noncaster) can duplicate a spellcaster via gold, then a spellcaster is not unique.
That still makes no sense ... Ok, DnD assumes a wealth by level which includes potions,etc ... if any character that uses potions, etc is a spellcaster, then there can be no discussion of caster vs noncaster as every character is a spellcaster.
What is a build? A build is something that includes Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc. In other words a character. We ask that everything is posted first, so that any holes are exposed instead of being filled after the fact.
Why no Gishes? Using noncaster base classes to prove caster's superiority is backwards.
Why did the aging/elite array get reversed? There was a lot of feedback from the caster community that they could not compete without those mechanisms. Hopefully this will increase the amount of competitors.
Why are we talking about low-level casters? Casters are percieved to be overpowered at all levels. Noncasters believe this not to be true, especially at lower levels when the caster's resources (spells per day / spells known / etc) are more limited. This thread is to try to see if this is true.
Why is the OP making these encounters biased the way he is? Actually, there is no encounter made by me. All encounters are made by other posters.
Where are the CustServ Posts:
Grendyl
Otto
Argaud
Meyer
Fire Riposte+Punishing Stance
What is a spellcaster? A spellcaster is a class that casts spells.
Why isn't a character that uses potions/wands/scrolls/etc considered a spellcaster? Because the spells that result from items originate externally to the character.
That makes no sense. Basically, if a commoner (noncaster) can duplicate a spellcaster via gold, then a spellcaster is not unique.
That still makes no sense ... Ok, DnD assumes a wealth by level which includes potions,etc ... if any character that uses potions, etc is a spellcaster, then there can be no discussion of caster vs noncaster as every character is a spellcaster.
What is a build? A build is something that includes Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc. In other words a character. We ask that everything is posted first, so that any holes are exposed instead of being filled after the fact.
Druid 1-20.
It's not the build that makes them broken, it's how absurdly powerful their spells can be whenused intelligently.
Example:
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Wizard 1-20.
Druid 1-20.
It's not the build that makes them broken, it's how absurdly powerful their spells can be whenused intelligently.
Example:
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Taking your examples:
Glitterdust, the enemies get a save, the range is only 10' radius spread, so concievably cannot get all enemies, does not affect things like shadows or oozes (appropriate enemies for that level), and only lasts a few rounds.
Flesh to Stone: Allows a fort save. Targets only one opponent. Is overcome by spell resistance. A cloud giant (first big monster I grabbed of CR 11) has a fort save of +16, base save for flesh to stone is 16, so the giant needs to roll (on the die) the casters stat mod, plus any possible increases. This spell does not affect undead, etc ...
How is this examples of overpoweredness?
And I am not saying that PrCs make anything broken, I am asking for real examples of something that is broken.
"Overpowered" is a relative term. Full casters are generally going to be "overpowered" compared to noncasters because they generally have a lot more versatility.
Look, the previous examples are perfectly valid. The fact that a few appropriate encounters happen to bypass glitterdust in no way diminishes the spell's ability to end an encounter. "A few rounds" is more than sufficient to destroy just about anything. Against a giant, use a will save spell instead. Or, just polymorph into the giant after buffing and beat the snot out of him yourself; ask the fighter to hold your cloak for you, after all your familiar is tag-teaming the giant with you and is too important for cloak-holding duty.
Moreover, if you consider a druid a full caster, we don't need to be having this discussion. A well-played Druid with a wolf companion is capable of putting out far more damage than any non-ToB melee class at first level. That is in addition to healing, buffing, AND DD spells. You said you didn't want to hear druid 20, well too bad, because that is the answer.
Spellcasting quite simply breaks the generally accepted game conventions that everyone else, including most monsters, play by. By forcing a single save of the caster's choosing, a combat can effectively end. Then all one needs to do is pump that DC to obscene levels. On the other hand, arcane spellcasting and wildshape specifically are able to duplicate the stats of most monsters in the game in one way or another. Alter Self (Troglodyte) plus mage armor, for instance, while a terrible combination overall, means the lowly wizard has an almost unhittable AC at 3rd level. Translation: whatever the party is fighting, an intelligent caster can turn into its bane. DnD is a complicated game of rock-paper-scissors, and casters can be any one they need in a given circumstance.
Finally, coming onto the board and asking to be spoon-fed is a little rude. You want us to show you a 1st level druid with standard point buy? If you are interested in seeing how casters are broken, why not build some standard PHB ones yourself and see what happens in play. Better yet, hang around a while, read some posts, and start to get a feel for just what casters can do at any level.
Wait, scratch that. You want a "over-powered" caster? Go read the
PHB's spell section.I'd post links, but I'm busy and don't have time to do your research for you.
Shadowcraft Mage Handbook: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556
Planar Shepard: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233
Shrink Item cheese: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127
How is magic not broken, again? : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10768110
Cheater of Mystra: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239
You can reproduce the "casting in an AMF" part of the Cheater of Mystra with a core Archmage by using Mastery of Shaping on an AMF. A "gish" with a level of Archmage could buff himself to high hell, walk/fly next to his enemy and supress all of their magic items, then pound them into dust using this trick.
Also, anyone who can cast Lesser Planar Binding can call a Nightmare, which has Etherealness and Astral Projection at will, which is broken as hell. You can basically make yourself invulnerable using these two abilities, and have never ending charges in all your magic items, etc.
Check out some of the forms you can take with Alter Self, Polymorph, and the brokenness of Shapechange, also. There are links to compilations of forms for those spells in Surreal's Index.
Edit: See also Shivering Touch, Miasma, Blinding Spittle, and many other outright broken spells.
Here is a compilation of some of the most broken combos in the game. See how many are non-casters.
Don't have time to read through the entire thread and check all the abilities: how does Cheater of Mystra cast in an AMF? (not trying to dispute anything here, just curious)
The Initiate of Mystra feat. It can also use things like Wish as a supernatural ability, which means it has no XP cost.
The Initiate of Mystra feat. It can also use things like Wish as a supernatural ability, which means it has no XP cost.
The feat Initiate of Mystra makes the caster's magic work in an AMF. However the Archmage cannot duplicate the trick. An Archmage can sit in a shaped AMF so he can cast on himself by leaving a 'hole' in the field, but his magic does not work inside the AMF area at all. So while the Cheater of Mystra can nuke everything at will, the Archimage needs to use conjuration-orb type spells to hurt the enemies. The Cheater is far more effective.
The Initiate of Mystra feat. It can also use things like Wish as a supernatural ability, which means it has no XP cost.
Oh Cheater of Mystra, how broken you are ...
I don't know if the Planar Shepherd belongs in the discussion. What makes it incredibly broken is not the spellcasting (though that helps, of course) but the abilities it gets.
Well, though, since it is technically a full-caster, I guess it does count ...
Really, though, as several posters have pointed out - look through builds and links and you'll find out why casters are relatively overpowered (not even counting ridiculous builds).
The feat Initiate of Mystra makes the caster's magic work in an AMF. However the Archmage cannot duplicate the trick. An Archmage can sit in a shaped AMF so he can cast on himself by leaving a 'hole' in the field, but his magic does not work inside the AMF area at all. So while the Cheater of Mystra can nuke everything at will, the Archimage needs to use conjuration-orb type spells to hurt the enemies. The Cheater is far more effective.
Of course. But the Archmage trick is 1) core, and 2) still broken. The hell with "nuking" things. Shapechange into something horrible, and rip their face off. With no magic items, even the scariest frenzied berzerkers are not so scary.
If you want to "nuke" stuff, throw on two levels of Arcane Archer, and fly invisibly over the battle field while firing arrows of Cloudkill, Horrid Wilting, and other mass destruction from inside the safety of your Antimagic "donut".
Surreal's Index: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636
Shadowcraft Mage Handbook: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556
Planar Shepard: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233
Shrink Item cheese: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127
How is magic not broken, again? : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10768110
Cheater of Mystra: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239
You can reproduce the "casting in an AMF" part of the Cheater of Mystra with a core Archmage by using Mastery of Shaping on an AMF. A "gish" with a level of Archmage could buff himself to high hell, walk/fly next to his enemy and supress all of their magic items, then pound them into dust using this trick.
Also, anyone who can cast Lesser Planar Binding can call a Nightmare, which has Etherealness and Astral Projection at will, which is broken as hell. You can basically make yourself invulnerable using these two abilities, and have never ending charges in all your magic items, etc.
Check out some of the forms you can take with Alter Self, Polymorph, and the brokenness of Shapechange, also. There are links to compilations of forms for those spells in Surreal's Index.
Edit: See also Shivering Touch, Miasma, Blinding Spittle, and many other outright broken spells.
Here is a compilation of some of the most broken combos in the game. See how many are non-casters.
Thanks ... I am looking through them now.
Feats:
1. Extend Spell
3. Heighten Spell
Rest: Doesn't matter
Spells:
1) Color Spray, Mage Armor (Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Prestidigitation)
Color Spray just plain ends most combats at level 1. It will be ineffective against some types of enemies, in which case you must use Mage Armor and fight with either Acid Splash or Disrupt Undead. As touch attacks, these will hit much more reliably than the fighter at this point. When you run out of these, take out a crossbow or longspear and hit things -- you're just not that much worse than a fighter at this, at low levels.
2) (Ghost Sound)
Level 2 is uninteresting.
3) Ray of Enfeeblement
This spell is amazing. On fighting type enemies (the majority), it will practically make your party immune to them. On spellcaster-type enemies with equipment, you will probably encumber them to the point where they cannot move without removing equipment.
4) Invisibility
Ah level 4. The level at which spellcasters just plain become too powerful. This spell is why. If your Cha mod is at least (party size - 3), you get the ability to just *skip* at least one encounter per day. It helps if there's a Cleric about with Silence, but it's not entirely necessary. That's what Ghost Sound is for. Bypassing an encounter is just as good as fighting in it.
5) Web
Web is the next big spell on your list: you just hose half the enemies, let the party take them half at a time. Smaller encounters are better than large ones; a single casting of Web can save you 50% or more of the resources (HP, etc) that the ENTIRE PARTY would normally spend in a fight
6) Stinking Cloud (Swap Color Spray for Silent Image)
This is easily your biggest level in the entire game. You get Stinking Cloud, which is your Fortitude save or lose (1d4+1 rounds is often more than enough to kill them, when you don't have to worry about defending yourself). You get Silent Image, which does everything else. Seriously. Throw a Silent Image of a Stinking Cloud, and the enemies will avoid it. (If they don't, just throw a real one next time). Throw a Silent Image of a wall, and take a few rounds to regroup. The possibilities are endless.
7) Hold Undead, Glitterdust, Magic Missile
Glitterdust gives back the Will save or lose that you lost last level. Hold Undead eliminates the two major categories of opponents uneffected by Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, or Web: Incorporeal undead, and strong undead. You now have an effective weapon available, at all times, to deal with just about anything other than an ooze. For these guys, you're stuck falling back on Magic Missile. Which, by now, does 5d4+5 damage, and you basically never run out.
Edit: Note that this character is not actually optimized. Even remotely. All he has going for him is the good spell selections, which aren't even the best, just the most illustrative of the point.
Consumptive Field. Proven to not work in the posted thread
Diplomacy: noncaster
Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Thread not available
Electroshock Therapy: Unsure if the con bonus stacks, regardless, it is not a viable build throughout most of the game. Could be made with a non-caster.
Festering Strength: Noncaster
Ghola Character: um ...
Limitless Spells per Day: Casters or Noncasters can do this
Make a Wish: Noncasters / Casters
Nasty Gentlemen: Casters/Symbiotes
Pun Pun: ok
Tainted Spellcasting: Thread not available
Templates for Free: Does not work. Magic jar does not work on constructs.
So ...
We have
Unworkable/unviewable: 4
Casters Only: 1
Available to noncasters:4
OK .. I read the Campaign Smasher II, levels 1-10
Consumptive Field. Proven to not work in the posted thread
The spell is still overpowered, even if you don't let it stack in any way. Boost your caster level by 10, fire up your Karma Bead, and spam Holy Word.
Diplomacy: noncaster
Wasn't this a bard?
Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Thread not available
They qualify for Epic feats.
Electroshock Therapy: Unsure if the con bonus stacks, regardless, it is not a viable build throughout most of the game. Could be made with a non-caster.
Please explain how you can do this with a non-caster. I guess a Wildshape Ranger could, but technically he's still a caster, and he's certainly relying on magical abilities to pull off this.
Festering Strength: Noncaster
Don't you have to be a caster to even qualify for Cancer Mage? Pretty sure you do.
Ghola Character: um ...
I agree. ;)
Limitless Spells per Day: Casters or Noncasters can do this
Non-casters can cast spells now?
Nasty Gentlemen: Casters/Symbiotes
Pun Pun: ok
Tainted Spellcasting: Thread not available
It abuses a broken mechanic to get unsavable DCs with no drawbacks.
Templates for Free: Does not work. Magic jar does not work on constructs.
There are magic tricks to get around this. I thought they were explained in the thread...
Wasn't this a bard?
Does it have to be?
Don't you have to be a caster to even qualify for Cancer Mage? Pretty sure you do.
Oddly enough, no. Cancer Mage neither requires nor progresses spellcasting.
Does it have to be?
I thought it did, for the Half-Elf substitution "Soothing Voice" ability. I don't know if I've even read that thread, though, to be honest.
I thought it did, for the Half-Elf substitution "Soothing Voice" ability. I don't know if I've even read that thread, though, to be honest.
Binders can pull off something similar. Bard 1/ marshal 1 is the most efficient route though.
The Initiate of Mystra feat. It can also use things like Wish as a supernatural ability, which means it has no XP cost.
Okay...I can't find the feat in the Consolidated Lists...what book is it from? (still just curious)
So, now that the CO have proven that the noncasters can also destroy the universe as a free action can we stop with all the "druid pwnz everything" actitude? :P
Please explain how you can do this with a non-caster. I guess a Wildshape Ranger could, but technically he's still a caster, and he's certainly relying on magical abilities to pull off this.
A Wildshape ranger using the alternate ranger abilities to not have spellcasting would definitely make him a noncaster.
Normally, people do not consider a ranger a caster when they talk about casters being overpowered (I address this in an earlier post in this thread).
Since Items are being used for this combo, then a noncaster with UMD could pull it off.
Most of this build is the shambling mound thing ... the rest, is immaterial.
Don't you have to be a caster to even qualify for Cancer Mage? Pretty sure you do.
Even if you did, the main thing is the disease. Notice that someone posted that a simple lesser restoration spell could fill the same role as the cancer mage.
Non-casters can cast spells now?
This link is actually for getting unlimited charges from a charged item (wand/staff) ... there is a part in the thread about using a noncaster with a gut worm.
There are magic tricks to get around this. I thought they were explained in the thread...
I only read to the end of the first page or so .
That said, it's relatively high level. However, though he uses Time Stop, Shapechange, and Gate, Time Stop is the only one needed (for time to set up).
For everyone else... he's looking for something a little more in depth. Saying Glitterdust ends combat is pointless, because it's not always true. In situations where it doesn't, the wizard is not really overpowered. I think what Meyer is looking for is a case where the caster cannot be said to be lacking in power. Perhaps, a caster prepared for everything, and overwhelmingly so. Also, I don't think he's really looking for game-breaking stuff (like limitless constitution, or limitless wealth with Planar Binding/Efreeti). I think he's just looking for demonstrations of sensible, overpowered applications of wizard power.
If that's the case Meyer, I'd also try a search for the most powerful spells or combos.
Funny. Meyer came here looking for broken casters and he ends up geting broken noncasters.
So, now that the CO have proven that the noncasters can also destroy the universe as a free action can we stop with all the "druid pwnz everything" actitude? :P
Um.. no. No one pointed him to the campaign smasher's thread as an example for casters. That's more about rules problems such as infinite loops and getting things more quickly then is normally expected.
It has very, very little to do with class balance. That's like me asking why robots are better than people and then dragging out a physics book and talking thermodynamics.
In fact his list is misleading and short anyways:
• Bestow Power: Discounted manifesting repeated for unlimited power points. (Caster based)
• Consumptive Field: Repeated overlapping castings of consumptive field, sometimes accompanied by a dual-caster-level-progression combo, can lead to limitless Str and CL. (Caster Based)
• Diplomacy Specialists: Continually high Diplomacy bonuses which render all NPC interactions entirely one-sided. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat qualify for Epic Feats at low low level. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Electroshock Therapy:Changing shape into a Shambling Mound or Zeugalak and hitting oneself with a repeated source of electrical damage to produce limitless Constitution or Dexterity. Converted by other traits into outrageous bonuses elsewhere. (Caster based)
• Energy Transformation Field: A permanent spell which can produce limitless single-spell outputs in a specific location. (Caster based)
• Festering Strength: Festering Anger disease + Cancer Mage (or some other mitigation factor) to produce limitless Strength. (Not caster based)
• The Ghola Character: An attempt to equal the grandeur of Pun-Pun while abstaining from manipulate form. (Caster based)
• Limitless Spells per Day: The Wand Surge feat and combos for giving renewable action points results in a free spell castable every round in a day. (Caster based)
• Make a Wish: The Gate clause of the Candle of Invocation leads to wish-related hi-jinks. And by hi-jinks, we mean infinite wishes. (Non-caster based)
• Nasty Gentlemen: Symbionts used to multiply the effects of spells up to thousands of times over. (Caster based, but beneficial to both)
• Perpetual Damage Machine: A damage feedback loop which produces infinite bonuses to attacks, skills, and saves. (Caster based)
• Pun Pun: Use of the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form ability to acquire all capabilities in the game. (No idea anymore, only vaguely fallowed it)
• The Synchronicity Shuffle: Using the synchronicity power in conjunction with Psycrystal Containment and an infinite source of power points leads to an infinite-action loop.(Caster based)
• Tainted Spellcasting: Undead and evil-subtype characters are immune to the negative effects of Taint, which can be used in the Tainted Scholar prestige class to gain an unlimited virtual spellcasting ability. (Caster based)
• Templates for Free: By either using Effigies, the tauric template or lycanthropy, it is possible to stack up a massive amount of templates for minimal LA investment. (Partially caster based)
So, of the 16 presented 1-10th level campaign smashers, 10 are caster based (i.e. you in general need a caster to cast spells). 6 Can be done without casters, but of those 3 of them work better/faster using a caster as the base.
So basically 13 of the 16 campaign smashers are going to be casters, and 3 are going to be non-casters.
A Wildshape ranger using the alternate ranger abilities to not have spellcasting would definitely make him a noncaster.
Normally, people do not consider a ranger a caster when they talk about casters being overpowered (I address this in an earlier post in this thread).
The entire thing is based off a supernatural ability. Yeah, he may not be using spells to get it, but it is still very solidly a "magical" character, no matter what the base is.
Since Items are being used for this combo, then a noncaster with UMD could pull it off.
Most of this build is the shambling mound thing ... the rest, is immaterial.
Even if you did, the main thing is the disease. Notice that someone posted that a simple lesser restoration spell could fill the same role as the cancer mage.
This link is actually for getting unlimited charges from a charged item (wand/staff) ... there is a part in the thread about using a noncaster with a gut worm.
Some guy using UMD to do stuff casters normally do is a wannabe caster, as far as I'm concerned. Such examples should be discounted entirely, as they are basically only proving that casters are in fact overpowered, and that the only way to attain their power is to either be one, or emulate being one via UMD.
Previn's analysis of the Campaign Smashers is alot more accurate.
From what I saw (I didn't read the entire thread...) Otto the Bugbear did a pretty good job demonstrating why a DMM cleric can replace the typical "tank" in a group in your other thread on the Classes board. Since said cleric also has lots of other spells that he doesn't use to buff himself, he is pretty much by definition more desirable to have in the group than a non-casting tank at all levels of the game. A druid can also easily perform this role at all levels, and can be insanely powerful with some combos at the mid and upper levels of the game (fleshraker + Venomfire, Shapechange, etc).
At the low levels, they aren't broken and won't outperform the non-casting tank in the "tank role", but they can do well enough to get by. However, they will certainly have more to offer to the party overall, and can be "overpowered" later in the game, as I think has at least been hinted at in this thread. So overall, they are more desireable to have in a party.
Um.. no. No one pointed him to the campaign smasher's thread as an example for casters. That's more about rules problems such as infinite loops and getting things more quickly then is normally expected.
It has very, very little to do with class balance. That's like me asking why robots are better than people and then dragging out a physics book and talking thermodynamics.
In fact his list is misleading and short anyways:
• Bestow Power: Discounted manifesting repeated for unlimited power points. (Caster based)
• Consumptive Field: Repeated overlapping castings of consumptive field, sometimes accompanied by a dual-caster-level-progression combo, can lead to limitless Str and CL. (Caster Based)
• Diplomacy Specialists: Continually high Diplomacy bonuses which render all NPC interactions entirely one-sided. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat qualify for Epic Feats at low low level. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Electroshock Therapy:Changing shape into a Shambling Mound or Zeugalak and hitting oneself with a repeated source of electrical damage to produce limitless Constitution or Dexterity. Converted by other traits into outrageous bonuses elsewhere. (Caster based)
• Energy Transformation Field: A permanent spell which can produce limitless single-spell outputs in a specific location. (Caster based)
• Festering Strength: Festering Anger disease + Cancer Mage (or some other mitigation factor) to produce limitless Strength. (Not caster based)
• The Ghola Character: An attempt to equal the grandeur of Pun-Pun while abstaining from manipulate form. (Caster based)
• Limitless Spells per Day: The Wand Surge feat and combos for giving renewable action points results in a free spell castable every round in a day. (Caster based)
• Make a Wish: The Gate clause of the Candle of Invocation leads to wish-related hi-jinks. And by hi-jinks, we mean infinite wishes. (Non-caster based)
• Nasty Gentlemen: Symbionts used to multiply the effects of spells up to thousands of times over. (Caster based, but beneficial to both)
• Perpetual Damage Machine: A damage feedback loop which produces infinite bonuses to attacks, skills, and saves. (Caster based)
• Pun Pun: Use of the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form ability to acquire all capabilities in the game. (No idea anymore, only vaguely fallowed it)
• The Synchronicity Shuffle: Using the synchronicity power in conjunction with Psycrystal Containment and an infinite source of power points leads to an infinite-action loop.(Caster based)
• Tainted Spellcasting: Undead and evil-subtype characters are immune to the negative effects of Taint, which can be used in the Tainted Scholar prestige class to gain an unlimited virtual spellcasting ability. (Caster based)
• Templates for Free: By either using Effigies, the tauric template or lycanthropy, it is possible to stack up a massive amount of templates for minimal LA investment. (Partially caster based)
So, of the 16 presented 1-10th level campaign smashers, 10 are caster based (i.e. you in general need a caster to cast spells). 6 Can be done without casters, but of those 3 of them work better/faster using a caster as the base.
So basically 13 of the 16 campaign smashers are going to be casters, and 3 are going to be non-casters.
First, the template trick doesn't work, since magic jar only works in living oponents.
Second, these same examples show the main weakness of casters:if they can abuse the rules, so can the noncasters. So the planar sheperd picking a plane that has every creature in existance due to stupid template rules and that can get 10 actions per turn is fair game, but if the fighter picks a candle of evocation and has infinite wishes then he's cheating? Why can't the noncasters use the rules in their favor as well?
And then there's the diference between overkill and uberkill. Wich is basically coolness factor. The bard may be a better bluffer than noncasters. But who cares? The rogue already has enough bluff to cheat the gods themselves.
We're all playing by the same rules here, as you always say. If you abuse them so can we. So your caster has a million defenses+offensive tactics+ minions? Well, then better for the noncaster to pick his candle of invocation and start a wish loophole. It was you who started the power race.
What are the noncasters allowed to do then? Choose to lose iniative and make perform: macarrena? Or would this be too rule breaking for the "druid pwnz everything" guys? It isn't a fair power comparison if you deny the noncasters from doing anything usefull.
If anything, you proved casters have more ways to breack the rules, but in term power level between classes this is irrelevant. Once you get infinite wishes nothing but your imagination(or the DM) can stop you.
As someone already said, everything is broken. So everything is actually in the same power level.
Charge Specialization: Noncaster
Component Free Wishing: No link
Dupe Tricks: Caster
Emancipted Spawn Reincarnation: Starts as noncaster.
The Hive: Spellcaster
Hulking Hurler: noncaster
Ice Assassin: Caster
Multi-Evolved Undead: Caster
Nanobots: Not a single character build
True Creation: Caster
Wish/Word: Anything that says "Custom build item of infinite wishes" as a start ...
Three of these I would disqualify:
Four of these are noncasters
Five of these are casters.
Not impressive.
Meyer, of the links posted by Surreal, I think only the 5th link is really handy to you. Specifically, check post 172 on page 6 by Lycanthromancer. That's a nice scenario that demonstrates the power a wizard can have with planning and tactics in mind.
That said, it's relatively high level. However, though he uses Time Stop, Shapechange, and Gate, Time Stop is the only one needed (for time to set up).
For everyone else... he's looking for something a little more in depth. Saying Glitterdust ends combat is pointless, because it's not always true. In situations where it doesn't, the wizard is not really overpowered. I think what Meyer is looking for is a case where the caster cannot be said to be lacking in power. Perhaps, a caster prepared for everything, and overwhelmingly so. Also, I don't think he's really looking for game-breaking stuff (like limitless constitution, or limitless wealth with Planar Binding/Efreeti). I think he's just looking for demonstrations of sensible, overpowered applications of wizard power.
If that's the case Meyer, I'd also try a search for the most powerful spells or combos.
I'm reading these as fast as I can ...
But yes, that would definitely be a fair summation of my goal.
Um.. no. No one pointed him to the campaign smasher's thread as an example for casters. That's more about rules problems such as infinite loops and getting things more quickly then is normally expected.
Actually ... someone did ... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14383078#post14383078
In fact his list is misleading and short anyways:
• Bestow Power: Discounted manifesting repeated for unlimited power points. (Caster based)
• Consumptive Field: Repeated overlapping castings of consumptive field, sometimes accompanied by a dual-caster-level-progression combo, can lead to limitless Str and CL. (Caster Based)
• Diplomacy Specialists: Continually high Diplomacy bonuses which render all NPC interactions entirely one-sided. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat qualify for Epic Feats at low low level. (Non-caster, but better with a caster base)
• Electroshock Therapy:Changing shape into a Shambling Mound or Zeugalak and hitting oneself with a repeated source of electrical damage to produce limitless Constitution or Dexterity. Converted by other traits into outrageous bonuses elsewhere. (Caster based)
• Energy Transformation Field: A permanent spell which can produce limitless single-spell outputs in a specific location. (Caster based)
• Festering Strength: Festering Anger disease + Cancer Mage (or some other mitigation factor) to produce limitless Strength. (Not caster based)
• The Ghola Character: An attempt to equal the grandeur of Pun-Pun while abstaining from manipulate form. (Caster based)
• Limitless Spells per Day: The Wand Surge feat and combos for giving renewable action points results in a free spell castable every round in a day. (Caster based)
• Make a Wish: The Gate clause of the Candle of Invocation leads to wish-related hi-jinks. And by hi-jinks, we mean infinite wishes. (Non-caster based)
• Nasty Gentlemen: Symbionts used to multiply the effects of spells up to thousands of times over. (Caster based, but beneficial to both)
• Perpetual Damage Machine: A damage feedback loop which produces infinite bonuses to attacks, skills, and saves. (Caster based)
• Pun Pun: Use of the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form ability to acquire all capabilities in the game. (No idea anymore, only vaguely fallowed it)
• The Synchronicity Shuffle: Using the synchronicity power in conjunction with Psycrystal Containment and an infinite source of power points leads to an infinite-action loop.(Caster based)
• Tainted Spellcasting: Undead and evil-subtype characters are immune to the negative effects of Taint, which can be used in the Tainted Scholar prestige class to gain an unlimited virtual spellcasting ability. (Caster based)
• Templates for Free: By either using Effigies, the tauric template or lycanthropy, it is possible to stack up a massive amount of templates for minimal LA investment. (Partially caster based)
I ignore psionics as they are not normal magic.
What did I mis-represent?
It's hard to be broken at level 1. Precocious Apprentice + a reserve feat is close, though.
Gnome Beguiler or Wizard with Spell Focus and GSF (Illusion) + 18 or higher INT = quite high DCs on all illusions.
First, the template trick doesn't work, since magic jar only works in living oponents.
There is a spell that specifically gets rid of all the constructs immunities. There are also other ways to get around them. If you really want to criticize this specific trick, you should do so in the thread devoted to it. It does work however, and if you'd read the rest of it I'm sure it is probably explained how in there, somehow, as I already said earlier in this thread. The "Mind Switch is more fun than a barrel of monkey's" thread also explained how to get around these kinds of limitations.
Second, these same examples show the main weakness of casters:if they can abuse the rules, so can the noncasters. So the planar sheperd picking a plane that has every creature in existance due to stupid template rules and that can get 10 actions per turn is fair game, but if the fighter picks a candle of evocation and has infinite wishes then he's cheating? Why can't the noncasters use the rules in their favor as well?
We're all playing by the same rules here, as you always say. If you abuse them so can we. So your caster has a million defenses+offensive tactics+ minions? Well, then better for the noncaster to pick his candle of invocation and start a wish loophole. It was you who started the power race.
So you think it proves non-casters are as good as casters if the non-casters use magic items that let them pretend to be casters? Excuse me, but I think you're actually disproving your own point, if anything.
What are the noncasters allowed to do then? Choose to lose iniative and make perform: macarrena? Or would this be too rule breaking for the "druid pwnz everything" guys? It isn't a fair power comparison if you deny the noncasters from doing anything usefull.
Well, if the "non-casters" only way of competing with the caster's power is to gain the ability to cast spells somehow, then you've basically already conceded your point.
If anything, you proved casters have more ways to breack the rules, but in term power level between classes this is irrelevant. Once you get infinite wishes nothing but your imagination(or the DM) can stop you.
As someone already said, everything is broken. So everything is actually in the same power level.
Almost all of these methods of "breaking" the game involve spellcasting. So no, you're missing the entire point. Spellcasting is broken. Anything that lets you break the game by pretending to be a spellcaster is just in fact proving this.
I ignore psionics as they are not normal magic.
You seem to be ignoring and restricting alot of things that really don't make sense, unless your aim is to bias the "results" of this exercise.
For example: Why disallow "gishes" in your rules? They are undeniably spellcasters, and they beat the non-spellcasting "tanks" at their own game, while also having a huge variety of other spells to rely on for versatility. They are in fact a perfect example of why spellcasters are overpowered compared to non-casters. They beat the non-casters at their own game, and then some.
Can people post, or link to, examples of overpowered casters ... I cannot find any that show overpoweredness at any/all levels, they usually don't get into their stride until 12+
I ignore psionics as they are not normal magic.
Psionic classes are definitely casters.
I think this thread revolves a bit too much around tricks to "win" DnD instead of things that are actually used and allowed in normal gameplay.
Around lvl 7 or so, casters should really start to outshine most melee characters. As has been said before; casters have much more options for dealing with foes, and much more versatility. If they properly prepare for it, they can handle almost any cr-appropriate challenge. Of course there are also good melee builds that can hold their own for a while (frenzied berserkers, ToB...), but in the end, they will almost always lose when compared to a caster played to its full potential. (And no, this doesn't mean gamebreaking stuff.)
Psionic classes are definitely casters.
I think this thread revolves a bit too much around tricks to "win" DnD instead of things that are actually used and allowed in normal gameplay.
Around lvl 7 or so, casters should really start to outshine most melee characters. As has been said before; casters have much more options for dealing with foes, and much more versatility. If they properly prepare for it, they can handle almost any cr-appropriate challenge. Of course there are also good melee builds that can hold their own for a while (frenzied berserkers, ToB...), but in the end, they will almost always lose when compared to a caster played to its full potential. (And no, this doesn't mean gamebreaking stuff.)
In the previous "Debunking the Myth of overpowered casters" thread in the Classes board (which I quickly gave up on, because everyone seemed to be forgetting the points that were made three posts ago), Meyer_William was wanting a spell list that was actually representative of being able to "properly prepare for it". Perhaps that's in order here?
Actually, I'm curious here too: though I definitely agree casters blow fighters out of the water, I don't think it's to the point that most of the naysayers are saying.
In the previous "Debunking the Myth of overpowered casters" thread in the Classes board (which I quickly gave up on, because everyone seemed to be forgetting the points that were made three posts ago), Meyer_William was wanting a spell list that was actually representative of being able to "properly prepare for it". Perhaps that's in order here?
We got one from amalcon for a Core Sorcerer from levels 1 to 7. I don't remember anyone commenting on that. And I don't think anyone's disputed that spells get stronger at higher levels, so it shouldn't be too tough to expand on the trend that amalcon established.
The entire thing is based off a supernatural ability. Yeah, he may not be using spells to get it, but it is still very solidly a "magical" character, no matter what the base is.
Some guy using UMD to do stuff casters normally do is a wannabe caster, as far as I'm concerned. Such examples should be discounted entirely, as they are basically only proving that casters are in fact overpowered, and that the only way to attain their power is to either be one, or emulate being one via UMD.
So, Even though the example ranger I mentioned, is not able to cast spells and has no spell list, you consider him to be a spellcaster?
You also consider a UMD character a wanna-be spellcaster?
What about someone who drinks a potion? Does that count?
Previn's analysis of the Campaign Smashers is alot more accurate.
Please, point out ONE thing I misrepresented.
From what I saw (I didn't read the entire thread...) Otto the Bugbear did a pretty good job demonstrating why a DMM cleric can replace the typical "tank" in a group in your other thread on the Classes board. Since said cleric also has lots of other spells that he doesn't use to buff himself, he is pretty much by definition more desirable to have in the group than a non-casting tank at all levels of the game. A druid can also easily perform this role at all levels, and can be insanely powerful with some combos at the mid and upper levels of the game (fleshraker + Venomfire, Shapechange, etc).
At the low levels, they aren't broken and won't outperform the non-casting tank in the "tank role", but they can do well enough to get by. However, they will certainly have more to offer to the party overall, and can be "overpowered" later in the game, as I think has at least been hinted at in this thread. So overall, they are more desireable to have in a party.
See the bold part of your statement. THIS is the entire point of this thread, and the other thread.
People say casters overpower noncasters, then, when builds are examined, they say the above.
Otto's DMM Cleric was a normal character version of a DMM (Not highly optimized) it performed similar to the non-optimized fighter listed. Its lesser combat abilities might be offset by the spells, maybe not -- but in its role, it was inferior in most aspects.
This is why noncasters object to the statement that casters are overpowered.
Psionic classes are definitely casters.
For purposes of this thread they are not. I would rather not muddy the waters talking about psionics vs spells ... I assume that since board consensus is usually that cleric/wizard/druid/sorcerer are the top four, that if they cannot be shown to be overpowered, then there is no point in trying for psionics. If they can, then there is still no point in trying for psionics.
For example: Why disallow "gishes" in your rules? They are undeniably spellcasters, and they beat the non-spellcasting "tanks" at their own game, while also having a huge variety of other spells to rely on for versatility. They are in fact a perfect example of why spellcasters are overpowered compared to non-casters. They beat the non-casters at their own game, and then some.
I am disallowing gishes in the rules of this thread as they are hybrids ...
I fully admit that seeing a wraith striking, pouncing, power attacking hasted polymorphed guy with multiple heroism spells up ... with (almost) full BAB makes me shudder ...
However, a gish is close enough to a noncaster in fighting (tactics, etc) to not be sure which camp to count them in (caster or noncaster)
Grishnash the Half-orc druid 1
Str 16 (14+2)
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 8 (10-2)
Wis 15
Cha 6 (8-2)
AC: 16 (10+3armor+1dex+2shield)
Hit Points: 9
Feats: Mounted Combat
Skills: Maxed Ride, Handle Animal, and Concentration
Equipment (total ~52 gp): Sling w/20 bullets (2 sp), Hide Armor (15 gp), Heavy Wooden Shield (7 gp), Hide Barding (30 gp), club (0)
Attack: club +3 (1d6+3) or Shillelagh +4 (2d6+4)
Spells prepared: Entangle, Shillelagh
Animal Compaion
Fluffy the horse
Horses are widely domesticated for riding and as beasts of burden.
Combat
A horse not trained for war does not normally use its hooves to attack. Its hoof attack is treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the horse’s Strength bonus to damage. (These secondary attacks are noted with an asterisk in the Attack and Full Attack entries for the heavy horse and the light horse.) (Since this animal is now trained for war (Combat Riding skill package), its attacks should no longer be secondary, and it should be able to attack while being ridden.)
Horse, Heavy
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural, +3 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+9
Attack: Hoof –1 melee (1d6+1*) (+4 to hit, 1d6+3 damage with training)
Full Attack: 2 hooves –1 melee (1d6+1*) (+4 to hit, 1d6+3 damage with training)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Endurance, Run
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
The statistics presented here describe large breeds of working horses such as Clydesdales. These animals are usually ready for heavy work by age three. A heavy horse cannot fight while carrying a rider.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a heavy horse is up to 200 pounds; a medium load, 201–400 pounds; and a heavy load, 401–
600 pounds. A heavy horse can drag 3,000 pounds.
Tricks:
Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose. (I think this last sentence implies that this trick makes something "trained for war", and hence should allow this animal to attack while being ridden, and also make its attacks primary instead of secondary.)
Bonus Trick: Attack again so it will fight "unnatural" opponents.
Tactics and summary:
Grishnash rides into battle on his pseudo-warhorse Fluffy. Combined, they get three attacks on a full attack all at a +3 or +4 bonus. This isn't that impressive, but combined it should be enough to take out most things you'll be fighting at first level.
They both only have armor classes of 16, but Grishnash can use Mounted Combat to try and cause Fluffy to "dodge" one attack per round (Ride bonus +5), or he can use his mount to grant himself cover, boosting his own AC to 20. He can't attack while doing this, but since he does it while it is not his turn, and I don't see a duration for this effect, I don't really see that this is much of a hinderance. He can take cover during his opponents attack, then not take cover during his own turn.
Against single enemies that look tough, he casts Shillelagh before battle. Against large groups, he uses Entangle.
I am disallowing gishes in the rules of this thread as they are hybrids ...
I fully admit that seeing a wraith striking, pouncing, power attacking hasted polymorphed guy with multiple heroism spells up ... with (almost) full BAB makes me shudder ...
However, a gish is close enough to a noncaster in fighting (tactics, etc) to not be sure which camp to count them in (caster or noncaster)
So... casters aren't allowed to fight, then? They can only stand back and cast every round? That just isn't how most people play clerics and druids. They are more suited to meleeing most of the time, and saving their spells for when they'll help the most (Entangle large groups of enemies, Lesser Restoration to get rid of some ability damage, Air Walk to reach a flying enemy, etc). Gishes are alot like them, as far as playstyle. The most basic ones have caster levels of 18, so I don't know how you can claim they aren't really casters... It is frankly ridiculous.
So, Even though the example ranger I mentioned, is not able to cast spells and has no spell list, you consider him to be a spellcaster?
You also consider a UMD character a wanna-be spellcaster?
What about someone who drinks a potion? Does that count?
If that potion is the entire core of the build, and it falls apart entirely without it, then yes. Its central theme is based on a spell. This certainly isn't any more unreasonable than your objections to allowing gishes because their tactics are too much like fighters...
Please, point out ONE thing I misrepresented.
I've already pointed out several. Some guy using the "infinite spells" trick via UMD on a wand is basically a spellcaster all but in name. He's abusing spellcasting.
The ranger/shambling mound is relying on a supernatural ability that is normally part of the druid class. Only through mixing and matching alternate rules can you actually pull it off without being a spellcaster. And even then the main thing at the core of the build is... a magical effect.
First things: you haven't completed the build ... no items/stats ... so i cannot comment completely and will have to guess. Forgive me if I guess wrong.
Also, I am unsure of the tone of this ... please do not take offense at my comments. I appreciate what you tried to do, but disagree with the effectiveness of things.
Well, most people here don't like them, but I happen to like Sorcerers, so...
Feats:
1. Extend Spell
3. Heighten Spell
Rest: Doesn't matter
Spells:
1) Color Spray, Mage Armor (Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Prestidigitation)
Color Spray just plain ends most combats at level 1. It will be ineffective against some types of enemies, in which case you must use Mage Armor and fight with either Acid Splash or Disrupt Undead. As touch attacks, these will hit much more reliably than the fighter at this point. When you run out of these, take out a crossbow or longspear and hit things -- you're just not that much worse than a fighter at this, at low levels.
Ok ... so to make sure that I am understanding ... I am assuming the elite array
Char 15, dex 14, con 13, str ? wis? int? (wasn't sure the order)
So you are taking a character with AC 16 (mage armor + dex) (1hour/casting) at best ... with 5 hps into melee range? (color spray, DC 13 - Fighter with a 10 wis saves on a 13 (40% of the time))?
Wouldn't you feel safer with a character with AC 16 (chain shirt + dex) (all day, armor stays up while sleeping) with 11 hps?
If you are using acid splash (1d3) then you usually have a (0 bab +2 dex -4 melee -4 cover) = -6/-2 to hit depending on how PCs are stationed.
Compare this to (+1 bab +2 str) = +3 to hit (excluding feats, assuming human (would be much higher if it was an orc)) dealing 2d6+3 (greatsword + strength)
Fighter has 3 feats to spend vs 2 noncantrip spells.
Sorry but I do not see the caster being able to work the way this is posted.
2) (Ghost Sound)
Level 2 is uninteresting.
You double your hps, increase your ranged touch attack by +1, double the duration of your mage armor (freeing up more spells)
Fighter doubles his hps, increases his attack by +1, and picks up a feat.
Fighter has 4 feats vs 3 noncantrip spells.
Sorry, but I do not see the caster being able to work the way this is posted.
3) Ray of Enfeeblement
This spell is amazing. On fighting type enemies (the majority), it will practically make your party immune to them. On spellcaster-type enemies with equipment, you will probably encumber them to the point where they cannot move without removing equipment.
Your mage armor now lasts 3 hours /level, so it can be considered up all day.
Your hps increase by 50%, giving you a max of 15. (the first level fighter above makes you staggered in one max damage hit)
Ray of enfeeblement (assuming it hits, remember, your to hit in melee is -1/-5 to hit, vs the melees touch attack, that means you need a 13 on the die, which is what the first level fighter needs to save vs your color spray) -- deals 1d6+2 str penalty -- or 5.5 on average - ouch.
Fighter gains a feat, +1 BAB, +1 will save, (it now is easier for him to save vs color spray than for you to hit him with ray of enfeeblement in battle).
If he took power attack in any of his 5 feats, then he can one hit kill the caster, who still needs to get in melee to use his color spray.
Fighter has 5 feats vs 4 noncantrip spells.
Sorry, but I do not see the caster being able to work the way this is posted.
4) Invisibility
Ah level 4. The level at which spellcasters just plain become too powerful. This spell is why. If your Cha mod is at least (party size - 3), you get the ability to just *skip* at least one encounter per day. It helps if there's a Cleric about with Silence, but it's not entirely necessary. That's what Ghost Sound is for. Bypassing an encounter is just as good as fighting in it.
By now, the cleric is walking around in full plate (armor check -8), which means "Clank Clank Clank" ... invisibility probably will not allow the party to bypass the encounter, however, getting the rogue into sneak attack position is looking very promising.
Caster is now at a very respectable 20hps (max), which is less damage than a minotaur (cr4 monster) can do in one round.
Combat-wise, your only offensive spells are ray-of-enfeeblement (which is more of a debuff than an offensive spell), color spray (it is VERY dangerous to be in melee range), and 1d3/1d6 damage spells ...
How are you helping the party in defeating monsters?
The Fighter is now at 55 hps (max) whish is more damage than most CR4 monsters can do in one round, does more damage more reliably than the sorcerer.
Fighter has 6 feats to the casters 5 non-cantrip spells.
5) Web
Web is the next big spell on your list: you just hose half the enemies, let the party take them half at a time. Smaller encounters are better than large ones; a single casting of Web can save you 50% or more of the resources (HP, etc) that the ENTIRE PARTY would normally spend in a fight
Web requires someplace to anchor it, so in large chambers/outdoors it is unable to be used.
Its large area of affect means that it might ensnare party members
It does not protect from ranged attacks or fliers (which have been appearing more regularly by now)
The fighter however, only got +1 to hit and 11 hps.
Caster now has as many non-cantrip spell choices as the fighter has feats.
6) Stinking Cloud (Swap Color Spray for Silent Image)
This is easily your biggest level in the entire game. You get Stinking Cloud, which is your Fortitude save or lose (1d4+1 rounds is often more than enough to kill them, when you don't have to worry about defending yourself). You get Silent Image, which does everything else. Seriously. Throw a Silent Image of a Stinking Cloud, and the enemies will avoid it. (If they don't, just throw a real one next time). Throw a Silent Image of a wall, and take a few rounds to regroup. The possibilities are endless.
Ah, battlefield control ... I am starting to like you ...
An area of affect spell, with a fort save of (10+3+3 (char, assuming you bumped it 4th level)) 16? That troll you fought last level (CR5) would need a 5on the die to ignore this cloud. Those undead are also ignoring it, but this would definitely impact the battle somewhat. However, you are still relying upon other people to kill things for you ...
7) Hold Undead, Glitterdust, Magic Missile
Glitterdust gives back the Will save or lose that you lost last level. Hold Undead eliminates the two major categories of opponents uneffected by Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, or Web: Incorporeal undead, and strong undead. You now have an effective weapon available, at all times, to deal with just about anything other than an ooze. For these guys, you're stuck falling back on Magic Missile. Which, by now, does 5d4+5 damage, and you basically never run out.
Re: magic missile, we non-casters like to think of magic missile as a 4d4+4 spell, not 5d4+5, as you are not 9th level yet.
4d4+4 = average of 14 damage.
Greatsword + 1 (+4 str) = 2d6+5 = 12 damage. Remember fighter gets a second attack.
But, your character has started to branch out a bit more, and is more useful ...
I still don't see him as overpowered at all.
So... casters aren't allowed to fight, then? They can only stand back and cast every round? That just isn't how most people play clerics and druids. They are more suited to meleeing most of the time, and saving their spells for when they'll help the most (Entangle large groups of enemies, Lesser Restoration to get rid of some ability damage, Air Walk to reach a flying enemy, etc). Gishes are alot like them, as far as playstyle. The most basic ones have caster levels of 18, so I don't know how you can claim they aren't really casters... It is frankly ridiculous.
Casters are allowed to fight, it would be pointless to ask for a DMM Cleric who has divine power up, when you say he cannot fight.
But, a GISH is a fighter/wizard (at its most basic) ... to say that a fighter/wizard is not a fighter is silly -- to say that it is not a wizard is also silly. This is why I am asking to not post gishes.
If that potion is the entire core of the build, and it falls apart entirely without it, then yes. Its central theme is based on a spell. This certainly isn't any more unreasonable than your objections to allowing gishes because their tactics are too much like fighters...
I've already pointed out several. Some guy using the "infinite spells" trick via UMD on a wand is basically a spellcaster all but in name. He's abusing spellcasting.
No, what you mention is overpoweredness of spells, or of magic -- not of the caster of the magic.
Casters have internal limits (spells per day/etc),
noncasters using items have external limits (gold)
They are quite different.
I've already pointed out several. Some guy using the "infinite spells" trick via UMD on a wand is basically a spellcaster all but in name. He's abusing spellcasting.
Sorry, but I do not see how the act of using a wand can be called spellcasting.
The ranger/shambling mound is relying on a supernatural ability that is normally part of the druid class. Only through mixing and matching alternate rules can you actually pull it off without being a spellcaster. And even then the main thing at the core of the build is... a magical effect.
This would be overpoweredness of magic, not of spellcasters -- as you pointed out, he would not be caster as he cannot cast spells.
Spellcasters are hands-down better at using magic items, and can make them for half the price that non-spellcasters can get them at, but you don't think that this enhanced access to this overpowered resource makes them more powerful than non-spellcasters, whose access is much more limited?
Don't you find this position a bit paradoxical to take?
But, a GISH is a fighter/wizard (at its most basic) ... to say that a fighter/wizard is not a fighter is silly -- to say that it is not a wizard is also silly. This is why I am asking to not post gishes.
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
BAB +17, CL 16, and not a fighter level to be seen. Is that Gish build acceptable?
If you insist that the "caster" have 9th level spells, then try this:
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
However, you are still relying upon other people to kill things for you ...
I'm guessing from this that you believe an arcane caster should be killing things with spells? In general, except for some very specific builds, thats not what arcane casters should be doing in optimized play.
They should be wrapping the enemy up in a little bow so that any mook with a greatsword can kill them. Save or Suck, Save or Loose, Battlefield Control, Buffing and Utility are the casters mainstay.
I suggest reading this thread if you haven't seen it before:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500&highlight=batman
to say that a fighter/wizard is not a fighter is silly -- to say that it is not a wizard is also silly. This is why I am asking to not post gishes.
You're missing the point I think. You have 2 characters encountering 5 combats a day. Character 1 is a non caster melee class of some sort. He can hit things and deal damage well, he can absorb punishment well, and he can control the battle field somewhat, keeping foes where you want them to be. Character 2 is a gish. He can by buffing himself: Hit things and deal damage well, absorb punishment well, control the battlefield well. He does all these things at the same or better level of competence as character 1. In addition to this, he has not used all of his spells for the day on buffing, so he can: Teleport, haste the party, buff the party, provide a safe spot to sleep, and contribute several other advantages that character 1 can not.
If character one is totally focused on his 3 things, to the exclusion of all else, and character 2 comes along and says "oh, me too, plus I also add this this and this", do you not feel thats an example of casters being overpowered?
But, a GISH is a fighter/wizard (at its most basic) ... to say that a fighter/wizard is not a fighter is silly -- to say that it is not a wizard is also silly. This is why I am asking to not post gishes.
Is it a spellcaster? Yes.
Does it work without spellcasting? No.
The question is about overpowered spellcasters and this does include gish. The more that you say except this and this and this the more you move toward the overwhelming exception fallacy.
Also for spellcaster to be overpowered they do not have to be overpowered at every level. What is true of the whole need not be true of all its parts.
So you think spells are overpowered, but spellcasters, which are the characters that use them almost exclusively, aren't?
Spellcasters are hands-down better at using magic items, and can make them for half the price that non-spellcasters can get them at, but you don't think that this enhanced access to this overpowered resource makes them more powerful than non-spellcasters, whose access is much more limited?
Don't you find this position a bit paradoxical to take?
This can be true. But what are the negative effects of making magic items? When can they make what magic items? Is crafting a staff worth actually crafting? Is it more beneficial for them to buy them over taking other feats and/or not using XP to do it. What specific magic items are useful to make(scrolls for example) and what are specific examples of these items? They are generally easier for casters to use but in the hands of non-casters who gets the most use out of specific items(polymorph for example).
How many builds actually include item creation feats(other then things like warlocks and artifacers but they aren't true casters). Just because its easier for them to attain magic items doesn't mean they get the most bang for their buck(they pay to, in feats and XP).
There are alot more variables then just "casters own because of spells period"
Thats what I believe Meyer is looking for....examples. If its so easy show us, how many ways can we make them. Meyers asked a question and it was quite simple.....returning his question with more questions and altogether avoiding that question is just going round in circles.
With the sheer amount of claims of overpoweredness you'd think this thread would be flooded with the uberness of a regular caster(not obviously broken methods, I believe someone already posted on how pointless that is).
[thread=951742]Debunking the myth of overpowered spellcasters[/thread]
This also explains the pushy demands in the original post.
As this argument is occurring in two separate threads I'd thought I should link Them together.
[thread=951742]Debunking the myth of overpowered spellcasters[/thread]
This also explains the pushy demands in the original post.
Couldn't finish the first page. We need a higher fence.
With the sheer amount of claims of overpoweredness you'd think this thread would be flooded with the uberness of a regular caster(not obviously broken methods, I believe someone already posted on how pointless that is).
So you want overpowered, but not too overpowered? We need to set the hurdle low enough so the gimp fighters can still jump over it, eh?
Here is my summary of the "answer" to this thread, IMO:
1) Casters are ok at the low levels. They are not overpowered. However, some casters, when built right, can easily replace any non-spellcasting melee character, even at the lowest levels. They also have other things to bring to the group. So at the low levels, they are superior to non-spellcasting melee characters, but not by a large margin.
2) At the mid and upper levels, this only gets worse, and in fact, the melee casters start to outperform the non-spellcasting melees at their own game, and clearly surpass them in melee effectiveness at the highest levels of the game. So at the mid and high levels of the game, casters are even more superior to non-casters.
So overall, at all levels, casters are superior to non-casters. Meyer has even basically admitted this, by admitting that a DMM cleric can fulfill the job of non-casting melee. He's just fishing around for some vague idea of "overpoweredness", and specifically looking for it at the low levels. In real practical game terms, it doesn't matter. Casters are more desirable to have in a party than non-casters. The end.
Even this doesn't really mean much. Casters are more of a pain to play, and some people don't like them. At the low levels of the game, melee characters do fine. At the mid levels, well-built ones still do fine. Only at the very high levels do they really pale terribly in comparison. I don't always play casters, even though I know they are in general superior. Sometimes, I just want to play a character that bashes monster heads in with a big stick, or grabs something and squeezes it till it breaks, without having to fuss with buffing the crap out of myself first.
I'll post a few more copies of my druid at a few different levels. I probably won't bother making very high level versions, because those have already been done to death on here. There was an old thread called "Druid doubter? Oh **** no!" or something like that that had a great example of a buffed and powerful level 20 druid. If I can find a link, I'll post it. I used to have it bookmarked, but I deleted it. I remember seeing it in someone's sig recently, but I can't remember whose...
So you want overpowered, but not too overpowered? We need to set the hurdle low enough so the gimp fighters can still jump over it, eh?
Here is my summary of the "answer" to this thread, IMO:
1) Casters are ok at the low levels. They are not overpowered. However, some casters, when built right, can easily replace any non-spellcasting melee character, even at the lowest levels. They also have other things to bring to the group. So at the low levels, they are superior to non-spellcasting melee characters, but not by a large margin.
2) At the mid and upper levels, this only gets worse, and in fact, the melee casters start to outperform the non-spellcasting melees at their own game, and clearly surpass them in melee effectiveness at the highest levels of the game. So at the mid and high levels of the game, casters are even more superior to non-casters.
So overall, at all levels, casters are superior to non-casters. Meyer has even basically admitted this, by admitting that a DMM cleric can fulfill the job of non-casting melee. He's just fishing around for some vague idea of "overpoweredness", and specifically looking for it at the low levels. In real practical game terms, it doesn't matter. Casters are more desirable to have in a party than non-casters. The end.
I'll post a few more copies of my druid at a few different levels. I probably won't bother making very high level versions, because those have already been done to death on here. There was an old thread called "Druid doubter? Oh **** no!" or something like that that had a great example of a buffed and powerful level 20 druid. If I can find a link, I'll post it. I used to have it bookmarked, but I deleted it. I remember seeing it in someone's sig recently, but I can't remember whose...
I do believe you just ignored that entire post and nit-picked what you wish to read. The point is show that casters are overpowered and not BROKEN there is a difference.
So you think spells are overpowered, but spellcasters, which are the characters that use them almost exclusively, aren't?
There might be some miscommunication here.
What I thought I said was that since noncasters are noncasters, if they are able to take advantage of spells to break the game, then the problem must be with spells, not casters.
And, it is usually high-level spells that are game-breakers, and since my position is (and has always been) that I think high level casters are overpowered, but that low level casters aren't ... I see nothing in my argument that is contradictory.
Spellcasters are hands-down better at using magic items, and can make them for half the price that non-spellcasters can get them at, but you don't think that this enhanced access to this overpowered resource makes them more powerful than non-spellcasters, whose access is much more limited?
You realize that almost all of the builds in the campaign smasher set ... did not have magical item creation feats. With this being the case, both the caster builds in the thread who bought items, and the noncasters who buy them, get the item in the same fashion.
As far as using magic items ... if a noncaster took one level of cleric (magic domain) the (basically) noncaster now has equal (or superior) access to magic items. However, most people would still consider this to be a noncaster.
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
BAB +17, CL 16, and not a fighter level to be seen. Is that Gish build acceptable?
If you insist that the "caster" have 9th level spells, then try this:
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
In my opinion, this is not a gish ... and would easily be allowed based on my first post (base class +1 CL, PrC at least 3/5 caster level)
Your first 6 levels are at 1/2 bab, etc ...
How do you fare at low levels (pre swiftblade)? Are you overpowered?
I'm guessing from this that you believe an arcane caster should be killing things with spells? In general, except for some very specific builds, thats not what arcane casters should be doing in optimized play.
They should be wrapping the enemy up in a little bow so that any mook with a greatsword can kill them. Save or Suck, Save or Loose, Battlefield Control, Buffing and Utility are the casters mainstay.
No, actually I do not mean to come off saying that casters need to deal damage, however, for a caster to be overpowered, they need to be able to do more than just inconvenience an enemy.
Which is why I have been asking for spell lists/builds/etc for low levels and mid levels ... the only builds I seem to be getting have tons of holes in them, or do not work the way the poster seems to think they work.
You're missing the point I think. You have 2 characters encountering 5 combats a day. Character 1 is a non caster melee class of some sort. He can hit things and deal damage well, he can absorb punishment well, and he can control the battle field somewhat, keeping foes where you want them to be. Character 2 is a gish. He can by buffing himself: Hit things and deal damage well, absorb punishment well, control the battlefield well. He does all these things at the same or better level of competence as character 1. In addition to this, he has not used all of his spells for the day on buffing, so he can: Teleport, haste the party, buff the party, provide a safe spot to sleep, and contribute several other advantages that character 1 can not.
If character one is totally focused on his 3 things, to the exclusion of all else, and character 2 comes along and says "oh, me too, plus I also add this this and this", do you not feel thats an example of casters being overpowered?
Post a build ... SHOW me the gish (a different poster talked about wizard 6/swiftbladeX/abjurant championY) that is not fighterX/WizardY to start ... that performs in this role ... and then we can compare to a fighter.
IF the gish does all you say he does, then yes, that would be overpowered.
IF, as the DMM cleric posted in the other thread did, it is not as good at combat as the melee, but has spells, then it is a tradeoff, and is not overpowered.
Is it a spellcaster? Yes.
Does it work without spellcasting? No.
The question is about overpowered spellcasters and this does include gish. The more that you say except this and this and this the more you move toward the overwhelming exception fallacy.
Also for spellcaster to be overpowered they do not have to be overpowered at every level. What is true of the whole need not be true of all its parts.
OK : Lets compare a fighter/wizard gish at first level
Level 1: Fighter
Level 1: Fighter
Which is more powerful? And why?
Hint: I won't tell you which one is the gish, and which one isn't.
Also, as i poster in the other thread, if a caster is underpowered for more levels than he is overpowered -- is it really overpowered?
I do believe you just ignored that entire post and nit-picked what you wish to read. The point is show that casters are overpowered and not BROKEN there is a difference.
Pretty much. We've already established breaking can be accomplished without the casters help. Casters might have more ways to break it, but broken is broken(is it necessary to make something more broken or have more ways of breaking it?).
Simply stating X out preforms Y at Z really just makes us go in another circle.
In general are casters overpowered(without brokenness?). Kind of an amusing question to ask here on the Char Op boards.
In my opinion, this is not a gish ...
Your first 6 levels are at 1/2 bab, etc ...
How do you fare at low levels (pre swiftblade)? Are you overpowered?
That's one of the trademark 3 gishes. It loses 2 more CLs than the other 2. Before swiftblade you're a wizard. Level 6 you spend like this:
Longsword+Haste+Wraithstrike are your weapons.
Blur+Alter Self are your shield. The PrC bans you from playing save or suck in level 6.
As this argument is occurring in two separate threads I'd thought I should link Them together.
[thread=951742]Debunking the myth of overpowered spellcasters[/thread]
This also explains the pushy demands in the original post.
I wasn't aware I was being pushy. I thought I was being very specific as that is what is appreciated over here in asking for assistance.
This link popped up because over there (hand waving at classes board) ... people seemed to not be able to make an overpowered caster, so suggested I come here.
Please guys, all I am asking for, is an overpowered caster build at low levels ...
Pretty much. We've already established breaking can be accomplished without the casters help. Casters might have more ways to break it, but broken is broken(is it necessary to make something more broken or have more ways of breaking it?).
Simply stating X out preforms Y at Z really just makes us go in another circle.
In general are casters overpowered(without brokenness?). Kind of an amusing question to ask here on the Char Op boards.
I never said that caster builds cannot be broken -- i am just not looking for something like pun-pun, which is beyond the question of caster or noncaster ...
I even posted that DMM Clerics with stacking nightsticks would be acceptable.
And, it is usually high-level spells that are game-breakers, and since my position is (and has always been) that I think high level casters are overpowered, but that low level casters aren't ... I see nothing in my argument that is contradictory.
If this is your position, then I don't think we disagree at all. I didn't read through most of your other thread. Is this what you said there, also?
That's one of the trademark 3 gishes. It loses 2 more CLs than the other 2. Before swiftblade you're a wizard. Level 6 you spend like this:
Longsword+Haste+Wraithstrike are your weapons.
Blur+Alter Self are your shield. The PrC bans you from playing save or suck in level 6.
Ok ... so please post the rest of this build ... in a traditional 4 person party -- are you the melee or the wizard? What items/feats/stats do you have?
What race? etc ...
At level 6, with a BAB of 3, what type of damage are you doing? Is it worth doing?
hps: 6d4+con
Round 1: Haste
Round 2+, Wraithstrike twice with longsword
hps: 6d10+con
vs melee
Round 1: Attack with longsword
Round 2+, Attack twice with longsword.
I am totally not seeing the overpoweredness of this build.
If this is your position, then I don't think we disagree at all. I didn't read through most of your other thread. Is this what you said there, also?
Yes.
My base position is as follows (I might change the numbers a little (1 or so), but basically):
Melees > Casters, levels 1-7 (7 levels)
Caster = Melee, levels 8-14 (7 levels)
Casters > Melee Levels 15+ (6 levels)
Then I say:
If these numbers are correct, and melees are more powerful than casters for most of the game (based on 1-20) then why are casters considered overpowered?
Now, if your campaign is levels 15+, casters are the only class I would want to play
Conversely, if the campaign is levels 1-5, then why play a caster (yes, i know one is useful, and healing is required).
BUT ... with as many threads as appear in the classes board all the time each one mentioning casters as overpowered ... I KNOW I must be missing something. Which is why I am looking for people to show me examples of why I am wrong, as opposed to generalities or situational issues, or ...
That's one of the trademark 3 gishes. It loses 2 more CLs than the other 2. Before swiftblade you're a wizard. Level 6 you spend like this:
Longsword+Haste+Wraithstrike are your weapons.
Blur+Alter Self are your shield. The PrC bans you from playing save or suck in level 6.
Is a level 6 wizard preparing to become a swiftblade overpowered? Is a level 6 wizard swift blade 1 overpowered? Can a wizard 6/Swiftblade 4 be overpowered? What does a Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9 look like? Is it overpowered compared to a level 15 warblade/crusader/fighter(or whatever fancy build we can dream up)? At what level do they become overpowered and why? What combinations of spells/feats can this build utilize to become overpowered? Can these spell/feats be used by non-casters to close the gap? Could we have a fighter similarly buffed by a wizard preform similarly(and likewise could a swiftblade buffed by the parties other casters gain as much benefit as the fighter? What advantages does the swiftblade have that can change this[example quickened/swift spells]).
Does a polymorphed warblade look similar to a buffed out swiftblade(or a likewise polymorphed swiftblade). I'm personally curious about this one, I haven't really put much effort into thinking of polymorphing ToB stuff(I use a much more limited version of polymorph in my games, makes me a bit biased and conservative while using it)
How does damage and combat maneuvers(ToB and non)/tactics compare to non-casters of the same level? How well does it work with a standard group(with it taking the place of a frontliner at all levels). Maybe we should prepare a few non-casters for comparison in various roles(optimized and not, for likewise optimized and non, casters). Maybe run them through an acid test(in a party, could get a little tricky).
I never said that caster builds cannot be broken -- i am just not looking for something like pun-pun, which is beyond the question of caster or noncaster ...
I even posted that DMM Clerics with stacking nightsticks would be acceptable.
I meant much the same. My views of overpowered are much more strict then many on these boards so I tend to be very lenient when it comes to broken(what I consider broken in my own games is different from what I consider broken here). What I meant by broken was infinite wishes, pun-pun, the jumplomancer, and shrinking rocks.
I'd also like to point out with amusement that one of the reasons that Meyer's claims one of the downsides of casters is "Abilities are flashy: Polymorph, Time Stop, Gate, etc ... all flashy",
compared to
"Abilities are not flashy: Compare:
Round 1: Charge (pounce), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Heedless Charge: Hit for (total of) 200+ damage, for the kill
Round 1: Cast Time Stop, Wall of Force, Wall of Iron (above Wall of Force), Dispel Wall of Force ... for the kill
or
Roll Survival check: They went that-a-way
vs
I cast contact other planes: They went that-a-way"
I would like to point out the lack of logical argumentation here. Why are we concerned with abilities being flashy or not? How do you define flashy? The logician in me sees a straw man argument, designed to distract and waste time.
Meyers also takes well designed characters that are capable of handling most situations then finding their one weakness and throwing it at their face. "Oh, you use SpellXYZ? That won't effect SMALLGROUPQ of your enemies, therefore fighter is better, QED."
Looking at the Sorcerer and Colour Spray example, Meyers says:
Oh, the fighter with 10 wisdom would survive 40% of the time. The sorcerer with 16 AC and 5 hit points would have to contend with a fighter with +3 to hit, dealing 2d6+3 damage.
Notably, in Meyers example, the Sorcerer would survive 65% of the time, in round to round fighting.
Furthermore, what Meyers seems not to notice about Colour Spray is that it effects an area. It can safely disable 2-3, enemies, depending on positioning. Assuming average 4 encounters, the sorcerer is taking out 8-12 enemies in a day. Unless your DM has a tendancy to throw a lot of small encounters, or lots of numerous-but weak encounters, the sorcerer pulls the lions share of the weight.
But Meyers will pick some instances where this will fail, and then say "Sorry but I do not see the caster being able to work the way this is posted." Well, I propose, that you do not see the caster that way because you don't want to see the caster that way.
I propose another build:
Sorcerer 1, Human
Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics Kelgore's Firebolt, Spelltouched Evocations.
(No flaws, 1 trait used).
Spell picks: Level 1: Kelgore's Firebolt, Burning Hands.
Cha 14 assumed.
4 times per day, this sorcerer can deal 5d6 damage, reflex save half to a single target. This is an average of 17.5 damage, reflex dc 13 for half. It's range is medium. 110 feet.
Burning hands deals 5d4, average 12.5, to a 15 foot cone. Reflex save DC 13 half.
From the optimization by the numbers thread:
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1 (46 detail records)
Avg 12.24 1.54 15.28 11.78 13.80 1.28 3.00 2.85 0.98
Max 31 7 23 20 18 3 6 6 5
46 monsters in the core books have an average of 12 hp, 15 ac and a reflex save of +3. Meyers, since you seem to be more interested in killing then disabling, this means that this 1st level sorcerer can defeat 4 CR 1 encounters 50% of the time. Alone. So 2 of the CR 1 encounters he does alone. The other two he can aid his party with.
Or, if your monster throws 3-4 CR 1 monsters at you at once, this sorcerer can now destroy HALF of the pack in a single blow, on average.
The greatsword fighter 2d6+3 with +6 to hit (weapon focus, charging), on average, 55% of the time, dealing 10 damage.
Oh wait, that means that while 50% of the time, my weakling of a first level sorcerer KILLS a CR 1 challenge FROM 110 feet, your fighter will 55% of the time do enough damage to a CR 1 challenge to let it fight for another round.
Of course, your immediate response is that you'll find some creature with high reflex save (+6ish) that is CR 1, or fire resistence 5, and decide that sorcerers are inferior.
In response, I submit we look at the maximum column for the same factors:
Max HP: 31
Max AC: 23
Max Ref: +6
Now: Your fighter will hit 15% of the time, doing an average of 1/3rd the creatures hitpoints.
My sorcerer will hit 35% of the time, doing an average of half the creatures hit points. And keep in mind it is only reflex save HALF - even when I fail to hit, the creature takes damage.
And that isn't even looking at sleep, given the low will saves column.
Beguiler 1 with Sleep, Skill focus, greater skill focus, will have a DC of 15. The average will save is nearly 1. This means that 70% of the time, the beguiler will effect a creature, and as long as there are 6 HD of creatures, it is likely they the 4 HD cap will be met. 4 times a day, the Beguiler can make 4 HD worth of creatures eligable for Coup De Gras.
But I suppose since they need to be Coup De Gras, that counts as a melee action, demonstrating that fighters are still superior?
Yes.
My base position is as follows (I might change the numbers a little (1 or so), but basically):
Melees > Casters, levels 1-7 (7 levels)
Caster = Melee, levels 8-14 (7 levels)
Casters > Melee Levels 15+ (6 levels)
I'd say it's more like this:
Melee = casters (1-4)
casters > melee (5-14)
casters >> melee (15-20)
As you've admitted, you can make a caster that is decent in melee even at level 1. Casters also have other benefits outside of melee, making them at least equal to non-casting melee, even at the very lowest levels.
At the mid and higher levels, they are just better period.
Here is a link to a thread that had a couple of good high level druid builds in it, if I remember correctly: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=808935
Here is a level 4 wizard that might be a possible lead-in for that Swiftblade "gish" (maybe not, I don't remember the feat prereqs):
dragonborn fire elf wizard 4 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 19.5 (+1d10+4)
AC 28 (10+4armor+10nat+1dex+2shield+1defl)
Attacks: 2 claws +4 (1d6+2) or +1 guisarme +5 (2d4+3)
Feats: Otherworldly, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still
Equipment: +1 mithril buckler, +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme
Spells prepared:
1st: True Strike x3, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Alter Self x3, False Life
Otherworldly makes him a full outsider. As an outsider, he is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. So we'll use a guisarme.
Alter Self into an abyssal eviscerator for +10 natural armor, and 2 claw attacks (next level you can use a Dwarf Ancestor for +18 natural armor and large size). Cast True Strike, and disarm the biggest, nastiest enemy. You're almost guaranteed to succeed due to an attack bonus of +24, and a two-handed weapon. You have reach, Stand Still, and a high armor class, so melee isn't much of a threat. You also have extra hit points from False Life just in case you do get hit.
Of course, if he doesn't feel like being in melee, he could prepare some Color Sprays, Webs, etc. He can also use Alter Self as a utility spell for flight, racial bonus feats, skill boosts, etc.
OK : Lets compare a fighter/wizard gish at first level
Level 1: Fighter
Level 1: Fighter
Which is more powerful? And why?
Hint: I won't tell you which one is the gish, and which one isn't.
Also, as i poster in the other thread, if a caster is underpowered for more levels than he is overpowered -- is it really overpowered?
Nice straw man. I said you shouldn't disallow it, not that they are more powerful. I'm not good at coming up with builds, but others are. Also I'm somewhat convinced that a custom build (as opposed to one that can survive in game) would be created to counter it.
Anyway, what about single class gishes. Battle sorcerers and duskblades don't require multiclassing, and the battle sorcerer can use a modified version of the listed 1st level sorcerer above.
Yes.
My base position is as follows (I might change the numbers a little (1 or so), but basically):
Melees > Casters, levels 1-7 (7 levels)
Caster = Melee, levels 8-14 (7 levels)
Casters > Melee Levels 15+ (6 levels)
Then I say:
If these numbers are correct, and melees are more powerful than casters for most of the game (based on 1-20) then why are casters considered overpowered?
The conclusion that you drew here contradicts the premise that you used. 7 underpowered compared to 13 not underpowered shows that most of the game that casters are not underpowered.
In fact the underpowered and overpowered are within the margin of error that you stated. In higher levels games that overpoweredness far out ways the underpowerness stated in the early game.
Also two 1st level caster have been presented here that meet the definition of overpowered.
Also, as i poster in the other thread, if a caster is underpowered for more levels than he is overpowered -- is it really overpowered?
As truth would have it, yes one can go from under/average power to overpowered that easily. It happens all the time. Some builds need time to grow and then they all of a sudden explode all over the place. In fact, this was a common problem with the gish characters and theurgic characters for quite some time until WotC and some creative gamers found ways around the problems.
I'm in the boat that casters are not generally overpowered. However, I have seen some (artificer comes immediately to mind) played at half-capacity just so the rest of the party can do something. This was an actual campaign for all 20 levels where everyone played the same character the whole time. Casters can be overpowered.
OK : Lets compare a fighter/wizard gish at first level
Level 1: Fighter
Level 1: Fighter
Which is more powerful? And why?
Hint: I won't tell you which one is the gish, and which one isn't.
Also, as i poster in the other thread, if a caster is underpowered for more levels than he is overpowered -- is it really overpowered?
Fighter levels in a gish build?
I'd prefer militia+spellsword, or any of the other countless better choices there are.
In my opinion, this is not a gish ... and would easily be allowed based on my first post (base class +1 CL, PrC at least 3/5 caster level)
In that case, I'm not sure you're operating off the same definition of "gish" that the rest of us are. In the mid-to-high levels, this guy likes to buff himself to the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia and then run around with a sword killing things.
Your first 6 levels are at 1/2 bab, etc ...
How do you fare at low levels (pre swiftblade)? Are you overpowered?
Actually, I've never played a Wizard, and the only character I've ever played from level 1 was a Bard, and as much fun as he was, he sucked pretty bad at level 1.
But the thing is, for the first five levels, he can act pretty much like any other Wizard out there. In order to determine whether that's "overpowered", you need to define the term. Like "gish", I'm not certain we're all operating off the same definition.
As truth would have it, yes one can go from under/average power to overpowered that easily.
I agree. Even with the same build at the same level a differential between underpowered and overpowered can occur.
1) Human Female Cleric of Mystra 7 / Hathran 5 with a Druid Cohort that cast "Acorn of Far Travel" = cast spontaneously any cleric spell and any wizard spell up to 5th level (Greater Anyspell).
2) Elan Psion 5 / Beholder Mage 2 / Celebremancer 8
- 4th level -> Pay a NPC caster to cast Polymorph Any Object (Beholder) on you. You are a living being, an aberration and you have the same intelligence of a Beholder (17) = Polymorph Any Objec has a permanent duration.
- 5th level -> Pick Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Stalks)
Now you qualify as a Beholder Mage = You gain a new level of spells every level, cast spontaneously as a free action up to 9 times per round ...
3) "Forcecage" = when you cast it a fighter dies.
Sorcerer 1, Human
Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics Kelgore's Firebolt, Spelltouched Evocations.
(No flaws, 1 trait used).
Spell picks: Level 1: Kelgore's Firebolt, Burning Hands.
Cha 14 assumed.
4 times per day, this sorcerer can deal 5d6 damage, reflex save half to a single target. This is an average of 17.5 damage, reflex dc 13 for half. It's range is medium. 110 feet.
Burning hands deals 5d4, average 12.5, to a 15 foot cone. Reflex save DC 13 half.
You're working with feats I don't normally use, so correct me if I'm wrong, however:
Bloodline of Fire and Spell Thematics are Faerun-only.
Spelltouched Evocations is UA, i.e. house rules.
Spell Thematics and Spelltouched Evocations give +1 caster level each, for a total of caster level 3 on Kelgore's firebolt and 2 on Burning Hands.
dragonborn fire elf wizard 4 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 19.5 (+1d10+4)
AC 28 (10+4armor+10nat+1dex+2shield+1defl)
Attacks: 2 claws +4 (1d6+2) or +1 guisarme +5 (2d4+3)
Feats: Otherworldly, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still
Equipment: +1 mithril buckler, +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme
Spells prepared:
1st: True Strike x3, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Alter Self x3, False Life
First off, Otherworldly is Faerun-only. Granted, there are other ways to abuse Alter Self with outsider type.
More importantly, anyone with a modicum of spellcasting ability abuses Alter Self for natural armor, including all top fighter-types on any arena I've seen. Since the said fighter-types behave pretty much as normal fighters, only better, I'm inclined to consider them non-casters.
I disagree with the line of thinking:
casters = magic
noncasters = melee
Magic is >>> melee, but how would that be surprising? Mechanically, melee is just a weird touch spell. Magic is everything else.
All casters in a setting have the monopoly over magic, but casters PCs never do so. In terms of power balance, the party fighter is as free to buy magic items (including UMD) as the party wizard.
Similarly, melee is not fighters' monopoly. When a shaped druid smashes something into a pulp, that's melee, but it still counts for the casters' relative power.
Therefore:
casters =/= magic
noncasters =/= melee
Any WOTC book can be used ...
You're working with feats I don't normally use, so correct me if I'm wrong, however:
Bloodline of Fire and Spell Thematics are Faerun-only.
Spelltouched Evocations is UA, i.e. house rules.
Spell Thematics and Spelltouched Evocations give +1 caster level each, for a total of caster level 3 on Kelgore's firebolt and 2 on Burning Hands.
Who cares about if its faerûn, UA or anything else, they're all official WOTC books.
Therefore:
casters =/= magic
noncasters =/= melee
Did anyone claim that? And PhaedrusXY just made a melee wizard..
Well, if the "non-casters" only way of competing with the caster's power is to gain the ability to cast spells somehow, then you've basically already conceded your point.
Not really. A lot of the arguments against Meyer's point involve demonstrating that a caster can acquire the ability to do a melee character's job, thus making fighter-types irrelavent. If he can demonstrate that a melee character can do a caster's job, that's fair.
Although, for the record, casters are significantly more powerful than non-casters in my opinion, and in accord with all the evidence and the great majority of the thought exercises I've ever seen.
To Meyer: You have asked repeatedly for the builds that champions of casters believe outperform the non-caster. So...post your non-caster build. Give him a reasonable number of challenges to face in a given day. If you want a full party, post all their builds, otherwise make a solo day for your non-caster. Go ahead and make the challenges favor a non-caster if you like, I believe even with that advantage the caster will be equal or greater.
As an aside, I'm sure if you make more than five challenges, the non-caster will begin to shine through spell depletion, but that's not really realistic. Let's agree five as a maximum is fair (four by the DM suggestion, but we'll go one higher). Build the PC's anywhere from 3-7, as I agree that with nothing but first level spells available casters have not yet gained much of an edge. I'll follow your lead, we'll do some math (although 90% of the people on this board could do it better than me), and put it to the test.
Play E6 if you want DND to be nothing but levels 1-6.
I'd also like to point out with amusement that one of the reasons that Meyer's claims one of the downsides of casters is "Abilities are flashy: Polymorph, Time Stop, Gate, etc ... all flashy",
compared to
I would like to point out the lack of logical argumentation here. Why are we concerned with abilities being flashy or not? How do you define flashy? The logician in me sees a straw man argument, designed to distract and waste time.
You must have misinterpretted what I was saying. I was saying that casters abilities are flashy (this is a bonus) while noncasters are not (roll to hit and damage) -- this is one of the reasons given (in not so many words) why casters overpower noncasters.
However, this is neither here nor there ... as the discussion of whether or not casters are overpowered belongs over there (pointing to class board). Here, this thread is focused on seeing examples of overpoweredness.
Meyers also takes well designed characters that are capable of handling most situations then finding their one weakness and throwing it at their face. "Oh, you use SpellXYZ? That won't effect SMALLGROUPQ of your enemies, therefore fighter is better, QED."
Looking at the Sorcerer and Colour Spray example, Meyers says:
Oh, the fighter with 10 wisdom would survive 40% of the time. The sorcerer with 16 AC and 5 hit points would have to contend with a fighter with +3 to hit, dealing 2d6+3 damage.
Notably, in Meyers example, the Sorcerer would survive 65% of the time, in round to round fighting.
Furthermore, what Meyers seems not to notice about Colour Spray is that it effects an area. It can safely disable 2-3, enemies, depending on positioning. Assuming average 4 encounters, the sorcerer is taking out 8-12 enemies in a day. Unless your DM has a tendancy to throw a lot of small encounters, or lots of numerous-but weak encounters, the sorcerer pulls the lions share of the weight.
But Meyers will pick some instances where this will fail, and then say "Sorry but I do not see the caster being able to work the way this is posted." Well, I propose, that you do not see the caster that way because you don't want to see the caster that way.
Having played a sorcerer with color spray before, I have experienced being in battles where it is dangerous to cast (I cannot get all enemies), the party is in the AoE (if party member fails, what is to prevent a Coup De Grace by the enemy), or versus plants/undead ...
The numbers you post for the sorcerer surviving, was (as i mentioned) without weapon focus (5% less chance of missing) or charging (10% less chance of missing) or being an orc (10% less chance of missing) ... as well as the mage armor (20% chance of missing) being up on the caster. It could be as low as a 20% miss chance. Not safe at all.
I propose another build:
Sorcerer 1, Human
Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics Kelgore's Firebolt, Spelltouched Evocations.
(No flaws, 1 trait used).
Spell picks: Level 1: Kelgore's Firebolt, Burning Hands.
Cha 14 assumed.
4 times per day, this sorcerer can deal 5d6 damage, reflex save half to a single target. This is an average of 17.5 damage, reflex dc 13 for half. It's range is medium. 110 feet.
Burning hands deals 5d4, average 12.5, to a 15 foot cone. Reflex save DC 13 half.
From the optimization by the numbers thread:
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1 (46 detail records)
Avg 12.24 1.54 15.28 11.78 13.80 1.28 3.00 2.85 0.98
Max 31 7 23 20 18 3 6 6 5
46 monsters in the core books have an average of 12 hp, 15 ac and a reflex save of +3. Meyers, since you seem to be more interested in killing then disabling, this means that this 1st level sorcerer can defeat 4 CR 1 encounters 50% of the time. Alone. So 2 of the CR 1 encounters he does alone. The other two he can aid his party with.
Or, if your monster throws 3-4 CR 1 monsters at you at once, this sorcerer can now destroy HALF of the pack in a single blow, on average.
The greatsword fighter 2d6+3 with +6 to hit (weapon focus, charging), on average, 55% of the time, dealing 10 damage.
Oh wait, that means that while 50% of the time, my weakling of a first level sorcerer KILLS a CR 1 challenge FROM 110 feet, your fighter will 55% of the time do enough damage to a CR 1 challenge to let it fight for another round.
Of course, your immediate response is that you'll find some creature with high reflex save (+6ish) that is CR 1, or fire resistence 5, and decide that sorcerers are inferior.
In response, I submit we look at the maximum column for the same factors:
Max HP: 31
Max AC: 23
Max Ref: +6
Now: Your fighter will hit 15% of the time, doing an average of 1/3rd the creatures hitpoints.
My sorcerer will hit 35% of the time, doing an average of half the creatures hit points. And keep in mind it is only reflex save HALF - even when I fail to hit, the creature takes damage.
And that isn't even looking at sleep, given the low will saves column.
I don't know what the bloodline thing is nor the spelltouched evocations ... but
this is the sort of thing I have been looking for.Beguiler 1 with Sleep, Skill focus, greater skill focus, will have a DC of 15. The average will save is nearly 1. This means that 70% of the time, the beguiler will effect a creature, and as long as there are 6 HD of creatures, it is likely they the 4 HD cap will be met. 4 times a day, the Beguiler can make 4 HD worth of creatures eligable for Coup De Gras.
But I suppose since they need to be Coup De Gras, that counts as a melee action, demonstrating that fighters are still superior?
This is not quite what I am looking for though, as this is a full round action (disruptable) and you cannot choose targets (i.e. you can hurt party members)
I'd say it's more like this:
Melee = casters (1-4)
casters > melee (5-14)
casters >> melee (15-20)
This is the kinda the reason why I would like to look at these things ... so see if the numbers are correct/etc ...
As you've admitted, you can make a caster that is decent in melee even at level 1. Casters also have other benefits outside of melee, making them at least equal to non-casting melee, even at the very lowest levels.
As I have said many times, the DMM Cleric posted was not as good at melee as the fighter, but since it had other things (spells), it was a preference thing ... You are trading combat effectiveness for out-of-combat effectiveness.
Here is a link to a thread that had a couple of good high level druid builds in it, if I remember correctly: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=808935
Thanks, I will look at this later.
Here is a level 4 wizard that might be a possible lead-in for that Swiftblade "gish" (maybe not, I don't remember the feat prereqs):
dragonborn fire elf wizard 4 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 19.5 (+1d10+4)
AC 28 (10+4armor+10nat+1dex+2shield+1defl)
Attacks: 2 claws +4 (1d6+2) or +1 guisarme +5 (2d4+3)
Feats: Otherworldly, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still
Equipment: +1 mithril buckler, +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme
Spells prepared:
1st: True Strike x3, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Alter Self x3, False Life
Otherworldly makes him a full outsider. As an outsider, he is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. So we'll use a guisarme.
Alter Self into an abyssal eviscerator for +10 natural armor, and 2 claw attacks (next level you can use a Dwarf Ancestor for +18 natural armor and large size). Cast True Strike, and disarm the biggest, nastiest enemy. You're almost guaranteed to succeed due to an attack bonus of +24, and a two-handed weapon. You have reach, Stand Still, and a high armor class, so melee isn't much of a threat. You also have extra hit points from False Life just in case you do get hit.
Of course, if he doesn't feel like being in melee, he could prepare some Color Sprays, Webs, etc. He can also use Alter Self as a utility spell for flight, racial bonus feats, skill boosts, etc.
This is another good example.I don't know otherworldly, nor do I know what a dragon born fire elf is ... but I am assuming it is legal.
Let me make sure I am following this though
Pre-combat, you cast alter self (lasts 40 minutes)
Round1: You cast True Strike
Round2: You can fight? (however, you can still take an AoO from reach)
or (ambush, etc)
Round 1: Cast Alter Self
Round 2: Cast True Strike
Round 3: You can fight?
I cannot see enemies being able to dispel alter self yet so that objection I will not raise.
Prebuff -- your AC/HPs look ok, so although it could still be a one-hit, one-kill for a melee, it is not as bad as I had expected.
Nice straw man. I said you shouldn't disallow it, not that they are more powerful. I'm not good at coming up with builds, but others are. Also I'm somewhat convinced that a custom build (as opposed to one that can survive in game) would be created to counter it.
Anyway, what about single class gishes. Battle sorcerers and duskblades don't require multiclassing, and the battle sorcerer can use a modified version of the listed 1st level sorcerer above.
Most gish builds I am used to seeing include fighter/paladin/etc ... so I assumed that was standard practice.
The conclusion that you drew here contradicts the premise that you used. 7 underpowered compared to 13 not underpowered shows that most of the game that casters are not underpowered.
In fact the underpowered and overpowered are within the margin of error that you stated. In higher levels games that overpoweredness far out ways the underpowerness stated in the early game.
My conclusion that I draw is not the one that you stated.
I am saying that is it possible that they are not overpowered if they are overpowered for less levels than they are underpowered.
The overpoweredness of high levels is only seen if you REACH those levels.
Referring from the original post:
1) Human Female Cleric of Mystra 7 / Hathran 5 with a Druid Cohort that cast "Acorn of Far Travel" = cast spontaneously any cleric spell and any wizard spell up to 5th level (Greater Anyspell).
Can you explain this more? Greater Anyspell allows you (when cast) to prepare an arcane spell in your domain slot. How does this allow you to spontaneously cast any wizard spell?
Druid cohort is not a measure of power. A noncaster can take the same leadership feat.
2) Elan Psion 5 / Beholder Mage 2 / Celebremancer 8
- 4th level -> Pay a NPC caster to cast Polymorph Any Object (Beholder) on you. You are a living being, an aberration and you have the same intelligence of a Beholder (17) = Polymorph Any Objec has a permanent duration.
- 5th level -> Pick Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Stalks)
Now you qualify as a Beholder Mage = You gain a new level of spells every level, cast spontaneously as a free action up to 9 times per round ...
Psions are psionic characters, per the definition of casters I have posted multiple times, are excluded from this discussion.
Plus, any build that starts with "Get an NPC to PAO you at 4th level" is about as bad as "Using my custom ring of wishes".
3) "Forcecage" = when you cast it a fighter dies.
I was not aware that forcecage killed enemies? I thought they only imprisoned them (by the time you can cast forcecage, there are cheap ways out of it).
Who cares about if its faerûn, UA or anything else, they're all official WOTC books.
I agree ... this is completely legal for the builds I am asking for.
By the way, I have a suggestion that I'm sure won't change Meyer's mind, but I'm going to throw it out anyway.
To Meyer: You have asked repeatedly for the builds that champions of casters believe outperform the non-caster. So...post your non-caster build. Give him a reasonable number of challenges to face in a given day. If you want a full party, post all their builds, otherwise make a solo day for your non-caster. Go ahead and make the challenges favor a non-caster if you like, I believe even with that advantage the caster will be equal or greater.
As an aside, I'm sure if you make more than five challenges, the non-caster will begin to shine through spell depletion, but that's not really realistic. Let's agree five as a maximum is fair (four by the DM suggestion, but we'll go one higher). Build the PC's anywhere from 3-7, as I agree that with nothing but first level spells available casters have not yet gained much of an edge. I'll follow your lead, we'll do some math (although 90% of the people on this board could do it better than me), and put it to the test.
Sorry, but I have to decline this ... as I don't have the time to make this build (or multiple ones) as well as making the challenges. Real Life + all these posts to catch up on make that impossible.
new first post layout
Overpowered Casters: Fact or Fiction?
Can people post, or link to, examples of overpowered casters ... I cannot find any that show overpoweredness at any/all levels, they usually don't get into their stride until 12+
Rules:
Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
Tactics must be included on how they are overpowered at each breakpoint listed.
i.e. a first level caster who knows magic missile and shield should not be included
i.e. a first level caster who knows sleep/color spray should indicate that this caster is unable to affect undead/plants/oozes/etc
Any WOTC book can be used ...
[indent]
Elite Array - or casters can now use the 25 pt buy if they desire.
No Duskblades or Gish with noncaster base classes, this is to compare caster to noncaster
All base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters)
All PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL
No LA races
No aging characters - This is being reversed. Aging is now allowed.
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
No Psionic classes
No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc ...
[/indent]
A build is something that includes:
Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc.
Please post the build separate from the encounter. This way, if people find issues with the build, then you won't spend time running it first.
Please no posting JUST druid 20 -- show me it at low levels, etc.
Frequently asked questions
Overpowered Casters: Fact or Fiction?
Can people post, or link to, examples of overpowered casters ... I cannot find any that show overpoweredness at any/all levels, they usually don't get into their stride until 12+
Rules:
Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
Tactics must be included on how they are overpowered at each breakpoint listed.
i.e. a first level caster who knows magic missile and shield should not be included
i.e. a first level caster who knows sleep/color spray should indicate that this caster is unable to affect undead/plants/oozes/etc
Any WOTC book can be used ...
[indent]
Elite Array - or casters can now use the 25 pt buy if they desire.
No Duskblades or Gish with noncaster base classes, this is to compare caster to noncaster
All base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters)
All PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL
No LA races
No aging characters - This is being reversed. Aging is now allowed.
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
No Psionic classes
No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc ...
[/indent]
A build is something that includes:
Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc.
Please post the build separate from the encounter. This way, if people find issues with the build, then you won't spend time running it first.
Please no posting JUST druid 20 -- show me it at low levels, etc.
Frequently asked questions
Show
Why no Gishes? Using noncaster base classes to prove caster's superiority is backwards.
Why did the aging/elite array get reversed? There was a lot of feedback from the caster community that they could not compete without those mechanisms. Hopefully this will increase the amount of competitors.
Why are we talking about low-level casters? Casters are percieved to be overpowered at all levels. Noncasters believe this not to be true, especially at lower levels when the caster's resources (spells per day / spells known / etc) are more limited. This thread is to try to see if this is true.
Why is the OP making these encounters biased the way he is? Actually, there is no encounter made by me. All encounters are made by other posters.
Where are the CustServ Posts:
Grendyl
Why no Gishes? Using noncaster base classes to prove caster's superiority is backwards.
Why did the aging/elite array get reversed? There was a lot of feedback from the caster community that they could not compete without those mechanisms. Hopefully this will increase the amount of competitors.
Why are we talking about low-level casters? Casters are percieved to be overpowered at all levels. Noncasters believe this not to be true, especially at lower levels when the caster's resources (spells per day / spells known / etc) are more limited. This thread is to try to see if this is true.
Why is the OP making these encounters biased the way he is? Actually, there is no encounter made by me. All encounters are made by other posters.
Where are the CustServ Posts:
Grendyl
This can be true. But what are the negative effects of making magic items? When can they make what magic items? Is crafting a staff worth actually crafting? Is it more beneficial for them to buy them over taking other feats and/or not using XP to do it. What specific magic items are useful to make(scrolls for example) and what are specific examples of these items? They are generally easier for casters to use but in the hands of non-casters who gets the most use out of specific items(polymorph for example).
How many builds actually include item creation feats(other then things like warlocks and artifacers but they aren't true casters). Just because its easier for them to attain magic items doesn't mean they get the most bang for their buck(they pay to, in feats and XP).
The problem with builds involving item creation feats is that they are highly campaign specific. Not encounter specific (You can't hurt oozes with your Color Spray, so it is only useful in the other 80% of encounters), but broken strong or underpowered based on a number of game world factors. A DM can make an item creator crippled simply by giving out very little treasure, limiting the party's ability to sell items, or running a campaign on a tight timeline so that there is never more than a day or two between long trips through areas where crafting is impractical. Also, most of the non-caster builds seem to assume that they can get appropriate equipment at cost at some magic emporium somewhere.
On the other hand, if the GM allows crafting time to use the feat, and doesn't have a magic shop in every town where players can buy anything in the DMG/MIC, Item creators can be way overpowered. There is nothing more pathetic than watching an optimized fighter build with a dozen useless feats because no one in ages past cared to enchant spiked chains so he has to use a battle axe because it is the only weapon he has that will hurt whatever he is fighting. (even better is when he GETS his magic exotic weapon, then something sunders it).
Test:You take your UMD rogue or other non-caster item user with a selection of magic gear chosen totally at random, of total value based on the level tables in the DMG, and I'll take a cleric, Wizard, or druid one level behind (I spent xp crafting) but with same gold value of gear of my own creation, and I can beat you in any category of your choice (melee, ranged, movement or utility) at any level starting at 5, or in many cases starting at 3 when I get craft wondrous. Even that test is skewed in the UMD classes favor, since it is assuming that all party loot came in the form of magic items, which I had to sell at 50% then craft back at cost (also that my random loot selection was entirely junky). If loot came more in the form of gold, the caster would have closer to twice the gear of the non-caster.
Can you explain this more? Greater Anyspell allows you (when cast) to prepare an arcane spell in your domain slot. How does this allow you to spontaneously cast any wizard spell?
Druid cohort is not a measure of power. A noncaster can take the same leadership feat.
Ok, let's do it slowly.
1) Hathran from "PgtF" lets you cast spells spontaneously (you can be wizard or cleric) when in Rashemen.
2) The druid spell "Acorn of Far Travel" gives you a connection to a tree
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a
So you are ALWAYS in Rashemen and you always cast spells spontaneously.
Now, since you are a cleric you can simply chose a cleric spell and cast it.
3) Also with "Initiate of Mystra", Greater Anyspell is a class spell for you.
Psions are psionic characters, per the definition of casters I have posted multiple times, are excluded from this discussion.
Even if the said Psion (Egoist btw) is a full caster? (CL 20)
Plus, any build that starts with "Get an NPC to PAO you at 4th level" is about as bad as "Using my custom ring of wishes".
Buy a scroll? Btw if you can't ask a NPC to cast a spell on you, what is the "Spellcasting and Services" table for? (PHB page 129)
I was not aware that forcecage killed enemies? I thought they only imprisoned them (by the time you can cast forcecage, there are cheap ways out of it).
Yes, it imprisons them (with no save, no SR and a duration of 2h/CL).
Yes, there are cheap ways out of it.
Yes, it kills them every time.
Why? Well in my experience because no fighter is ever prepared for it. Anyway, you can always add a good old Dimensional Anchor to it ...
Sorry, but I have to decline this ... as I don't have the time to make this build (or multiple ones) as well as making the challenges. Real Life + all these posts to catch up on make that impossible.
You do not get away with that. You demanded way too many builds to be unwilling to do your own, have put WAY too much time into this thread (and it's duplicate) to not have time for this.
A level 5 character takes 10 minutes, tops, to make. Picking 5 CR 2's (a good tough day for one lvl5 character) out of the monster manual can be done in 10 seconds. The challenges are just encounters (you said power in combat is all you're concerned with, so nothing at all fancy is necessary).
Ok, let's do it slowly.
1) Hathran from "PgtF" lets you cast spells spontaneously (you can be wizard or cleric) when in Rashemen.
2) The druid spell "Acorn of Far Travel" gives you a connection to a tree
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a
So you are ALWAYS in Rashemen and you always cast spells spontaneously.
Now, since you are a cleric you can simply chose a cleric spell and cast it.
3) Also with "Initiate of Mystra", Greater Anyspell is a class spell for you.
I'm with Meyer on this one. It still takes 15 minutes to prepare a wizard spell using Greater Anyspell. It doesn't matter that you can spontaneoulsy cast it.
Yes, it imprisons them (with no save, no SR and a duration of 2h/CL).
Yes, there are cheap ways out of it.
Yes, it kills them every time.
Why? Well in my experience because no fighter is ever prepared for it. Anyway, you can always add a good old Dimensional Anchor to it ...
At the levels where it might be remotely possible that I might get hit with this, I certainly wouldn't play a fighter that didn't at least have a 1/day item that could get him out of this. If you can hit him with a Dimensional Anchor before he can use his Cape of the Mountbank or whatever, then yeah he's hosed. Saying that "no fighters ever are prepared for this" is ridiculous, though. All optimized fighters should be prepared for this.
At the levels where it might be remotely possible that I might get hit with this, I certainly wouldn't play a fighter that didn't at least have a 1/day item that could get him out of this. If you can hit him with a Dimensional Anchor before he can use his Cape of the Mountbank or whatever, then yeah he's hosed. Saying that "no fighters ever are prepared for this" is ridiculous, though. All optimized fighters should be prepared for this.
Proving the point about Item Creation feats. Apparently, only in worlds where you can pull out a picture of an item and tell (not ask) your DM I go to the store and buy this, can Optimized fighters exist.
The Dragon of the cold hills has been a pain in the side of the town of Whitefield for generations. You must venture to the cold hills and slay the dragon. After a brief interview with one of the locals, you learn the rough location of the dragon's cave.
On the way to the cave: The cold hills are, unsurprisingly, hilly. The area is full of hills and short cliffs (no bigger than 5'. Picture Scotland). You've heard that strange hounds stalk this this land. Sure enough, one attacks you. Blink dog.
You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. Dire badger around the corner.
The corridor continues on, varying between 5' to 10' in width. You're attacked without warning. Choker
Eventually you reach a large 15' wide, 20' long chamber. The walls are packed with artwork, fine furniture, and other treasure-horde type stuff. The floor is covered by a pair of fine rugs. As you cross the second of the rugs, it attacks you. Medium animated object: rug
The final room is about 10' by 10' in size, featuring a pile of gold coins with a tiny dragon sitting on top. Wyrmling white dragon.
There. 5 encounters, one that screws fighters over (blink dog), one that screws wizards over (rug), one that's bog standard (dire badger), one that gets surprise (choker), and one that's a dragon (wyrmling white dragon).
Proving the point about Item Creation feats. Apparently, only in worlds where you can pull out a picture of an item and tell (not ask) your DM I go to the store and buy this, can Optimized fighters exist.
I think this is absolutely true. Non-spellcasting melees are much more dependant on getting the magic items they need than casters. In most cases, a caster can use a spell to reproduce whatever effect he needs, if the Magik Mart is all out of them. :P
In a game where you can't buy whatever you want, Magic Item creation feats are some of the best feats in the game, as long as you actually have the time and money to use them.
Buy a scroll? Btw if you can't ask a NPC to cast a spell on you, what is the "Spellcasting and Services" table for? (PHB page 129)
Beholders have 11HD, you can't polymorph into one until level 11.
Anyone can get PAO cast on them. So an elan rogue can also be a beholder. And an otherworldy human commoner can be a planetar at level 14 (dwarf ancestor at level... 4? 5?). The spell is broken, the whole polymorph/wildshape is broken and WotC recommends to ditch it whole.
Yes, it imprisons them (with no save, no SR and a duration of 2h/CL).
Yes, there are cheap ways out of it.
Yes, it kills them every time.
Why? Well in my experience because no fighter is ever prepared for it. Anyway, you can always add a good old Dimensional Anchor to it ...
With Dimensional Anchor it works on casters too, so it is not a particular non-caster killer. Actually you don't even need Dimensional Anchor to get rid of a cleric or druid. They can Plane Shift out, but they are not getting back to that particular fight. It is also expensive, I have never seen a caster in a real game memorizing it (although the wizard in one of the parties I know has a scroll with it for emergencies).
You do not get away with that. You demanded way too many builds to be unwilling to do your own, have put WAY too much time into this thread (and it's duplicate) to not have time for this.
A level 5 character takes 10 minutes, tops, to make. Picking 5 CR 2's (a good tough day for one lvl5 character) out of the monster manual can be done in 10 seconds. The challenges are just encounters (you said power in combat is all you're concerned with, so nothing at all fancy is necessary).
An Optimized Character takes me MUCH longer than 10 minutes. At least for me. Anything posted in this thread should be considered to be mostly/completely optimized so anything less would be doing me a disservice.
I don't have a MM (have a 3.0 one, but not 3.5) so I cannot look things up by the index (SRD doesn't have one).
Oh, maybe you meant by CR? No problem.
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php
Ha! Caught you lying :P
Index - http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm
Oh, maybe you meant by CR? No problem.
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php
Ha! Cought you at lying :P
? Confused ...
The SRD I have is a bunch of text files I downloaded quite some time ago -- and an index is not one of the things here.
You're working with feats I don't normally use, so correct me if I'm wrong, however:
Bloodline of Fire and Spell Thematics are Faerun-only.
Spelltouched Evocations is UA, i.e. house rules.
Spell Thematics and Spelltouched Evocations give +1 caster level each, for a total of caster level 3 on Kelgore's firebolt and 2 on Burning Hands.
Reply With Quote
Very. Spell thematics applies to two spells: The second can be burning hands.
Bloodline of fire is +2 to CL.
This gives both Kelgores Firebolt and Burning hands +4 CL, for a total of 5 (max) at first level (the last point gained from Spelltouched Evocations).
Hell, if you use flaws, you can take sudden Maximize and sudden empower. Dealing an average of 38.5 damage, reflex save half, 1/day.
This is not quite what I am looking for though, as this is a full round action (disruptable) and you cannot choose targets (i.e. you can hurt party members)
AHHHH! Now I think I see the problem.
Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.
Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.
Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).
Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket.
When you play casters, you cast these spells while within melee range! Now I see why you consider them so much less valuable! See, since it has a range of 110 feet at first level (growing from there), you should never cast it when in melee combat. 60 feet away, at least.
Also, when you have a position like this:
..C..
XXX
..YX
With 4 goblins surrounding your fighter, you cast the sleep on the C square. This will get 3 goblins before the fighter, and the 4th if the fighter is missed (assuming all have 1 HD).
Most of these spells *can* be targeted and fired in battle. You just have to pick the right place to aim them.
Oh, and if you're looking for the location of the caster, since they are in danager because it is a full round spell?
They are about here:
C (if you count each line as 5 feet as I did, that is 85 feet away. They could be
Right here.
Wiz 6/Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 4
Pally 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ AC 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8
Ftr 1/ Wiz 6/ SS 1/ AC 5/ Eldritch Knight 7
Just so ya know.
Grishnash the Half-orc druid 5
Str 16 (14+2)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1)
Int 8 (10-2)
Wis 15
Cha 6 (8-2)
BAB/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: club +6 (1d6+3) or Shillelagh +7 (2d6+4) (+2 to hit and dmg w/bull's str not included)
AC: 20 (22 w/Barkskin)(10+6armor+1dex+3shield)
Hit Points: 36 (8+18+10)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +6
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills: Maxed Ride (+13), and Concentration (+10); Handle Animal 5 ranks (+7), Misc. skills 3 ranks
Equipment (total wealth 8537): Sling w/20 bullets (2 sp), +1 bluewood (UE) breastplate (1950), +1 Heavy Wooden Shield (1157 gp), large chainshirt barding (200 gp), medium breastplate barding (200 gp), club (0), MW military saddle (+2 MW ride tool combined with military saddle, +2 to all ride checks, +4 to stay in the saddle, 50% chance to stay in saddle when unconscious, 80 gp), Healing Belt (750), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750), 2 scrolls of Shillelagh (50 gp), Lesser Rod of Extend Spell (3000), heavy warhorse (400)
Spells prepared:
1st: Entangle x1, Shillelagh x2, Produce Flame
2nd: Bull's Strength, Barkskin, Flame Blade
3rd: Call Lightning, Mass Lesser Vigor
Fluffy the Riding Dog (animal companion)
Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +5 armor), touch 13, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, evasion, share spells, empathic link
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +4, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim -1, Survival +3*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB, Improved Toughness
Trained for Hunting (DC 20): An animal trained for hunting knows the tricks attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track.
Training an animal for hunting takes six weeks.
Bonus Tricks: Attack again, so it will fight "unnatural" opponents. Defend.
Heavy Warhorse
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural, +4 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Hoof +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +4
Feats: Endurance, Run
These animals are similar to heavy horses but are trained and bred for strength and aggression. A heavy warhorse can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a heavy warhorse is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301–600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601–900 pounds. A heavy warhorse can drag 4,500 pounds.
Tactics and summary:
Grishnash rides into battle on his warhorse with is dog Fluffy by his side. All together, they get five attacks on a full attack with 4 about a +6 attack bonus. He has enough castings of Shilellagh to have one for 4 battles per day, if he uses his scrolls. He has Flame Blade for hard to hit enemies, and Call Lightning and Produce Flame for hard to reach enemies. For enemies he would rather not take a full attack from, he uses Ride-By-Attack. He also has the option of casting Call Lightning and/or Produce Flame, wildshaping into a dire hawk, and flying out of reach while blasting if he really wants to avoid an enemy.
With his rod of extend, Barkskin lasts 80 minutes. He should have plently of out of combat healing with the Healing Belt, Wand of Lesser Vigor and the prepared Mass Lesser Vigor. If he needs, he can spontaneously summon for more allies. He can also Wildshape if he needs to for some reason, but he doesn't use it as a standard tactic. Both the dog and horse have scent, so he should rarely be surprized in melee combat.
My conclusion that I draw is not the one that you stated.
I didn't change the quote, so how is that possible.
I said that the conclusion that you drew was not supported by the premise that you used and up forth one that was.
I am saying that is it possible that they are not overpowered if they are overpowered for less levels than they are underpowered.
The conclusion here contradicts the premise again. Overpowered at high level means at high levels they are overpowered. That is a tautological.The overpoweredness of high levels is only seen if you REACH those levels.
In the same fashion, equality of non-casters can only happen if they survive. I would like to see how that could happen without casters.
Besides that casters can replace (but not equal) noncasters well enough for a party of all casters to reach high levels. can the same be done with only non-casters?
Very. Spell thematics applies to two spells: The second can be burning hands.
Bloodline of fire is +2 to CL.
I see. Nice synergy.
Here is a level 5 version of the druid. He isn't that optimized, but with his variety of options, allies, and decent combat stats, he should be able to handle any CR appropriate enemies. I am quite sure he could run through the mini-adventure posted by SquashMonster with no problems.
Grishnash the Half-orc druid 5
Str 16 (14+2)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1)
Int 8 (10-2)
Wis 15
Cha 6 (8-2)
BAB/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: club +6 (1d6+3) or Shillelagh +7 (2d6+4) (+2 to hit and dmg w/bull's str not included)
AC: 20 (22 w/Barkskin)(10+6armor+1dex+3shield)
Hit Points: 36 (8+18+10)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +6
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills: Maxed Ride (+13), and Concentration (+10); Handle Animal 5 ranks (+7), Misc. skills 3 ranks
Equipment (total wealth 8537): Sling w/20 bullets (2 sp), +1 bluewood (UE) breastplate (1950), +1 Heavy Wooden Shield (1157 gp), large chainshirt barding (200 gp), medium breastplate barding (200 gp), club (0), MW military saddle (+2 MW ride tool combined with military saddle, +2 to all ride checks, +4 to stay in the saddle, 50% chance to stay in saddle when unconscious, 80 gp), Healing Belt (750), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750), 2 scrolls of Shillelagh (50 gp), Lesser Rod of Extend Spell (3000), heavy warhorse (400)
Spells prepared:
1st: Entangle x1, Shillelagh x2, Produce Flame
2nd: Bull's Strength, Barkskin, Flame Blade
3rd: Call Lightning, Mass Lesser Vigor
Fluffy the Riding Dog (animal companion)
Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +5 armor), touch 13, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, evasion, share spells, empathic link
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +4, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim -1, Survival +3*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB, Improved Toughness
Trained for Hunting (DC 20): An animal trained for hunting knows the tricks attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track.
Training an animal for hunting takes six weeks.
Bonus Tricks: Attack again, so it will fight "unnatural" opponents. Defend.
Heavy Warhorse
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural, +4 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Hoof +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +4
Feats: Endurance, Run
These animals are similar to heavy horses but are trained and bred for strength and aggression. A heavy warhorse can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a heavy warhorse is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301–600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601–900 pounds. A heavy warhorse can drag 4,500 pounds.
Tactics and summary:
Grishnash rides into battle on his warhorse with is dog Fluffy by his side. All together, they get five attacks on a full attack with 4 about a +6 attack bonus. He has enough castings of Shilellagh to have one for 4 battles per day, if he uses his scrolls. He has Flame Blade for hard to hit enemies, and Call Lightning and Produce Flame for hard to reach enemies. For enemies he would rather not take a full attack from, he uses Ride-By-Attack. He also has the option of casting Call Lightning and/or Produce Flame, wildshaping into a dire hawk, and flying out of reach while blasting if he really wants to avoid an enemy.
With his rod of extend, Barkskin lasts 80 minutes. He should have plently of out of combat healing with the Healing Belt, Wand of Lesser Vigor and the prepared Mass Lesser Vigor. If he needs, he can spontaneously summon for more allies. He can also Wildshape if he needs to for some reason, but he doesn't use it as a standard tactic. Both the dog and horse have scent, so he should rarely be surprized in melee combat.
You do realize that the fighter can just get points into handle animal and get his own army of animals.
Actually, if you pick Arm's and equipment guide, the fighter can train several big nasty magical beasts and even vermins to do his bidding.
You do realize that the fighter can just get points into handle animal and get his own army of animals.
Actually, if you pick Arm's and equipment guide, the fighter can train several big nasty magical beasts and even vermins to do his bidding.
Can the fighter also cast Entangle to snare a bunch of enemies, Wildshape into a bird to scout, cast Lesser Restoration to get rid of some ability damage, or Protection from Elements to protect him from a dragon's breath weapon? Can he do all of that, changing it up from day to day as needed?
Fighting and using animals is the trivial part of what this character can do. It's the only part that a fighter or other non-spellcaster could do consistently. The druid can easily replace the fighter. The fighter can't replace the druid.
And also, did you really need to quote the ENTIRE character?
You do realize that the fighter can just get points into handle animal and get his own army of animals.
Actually, if you pick Arm's and equipment guide, the fighter can train several big nasty magical beasts and even vermins to do his bidding.
But the druid gets an animal for free, and it advances in HD, too. Furthermore, they can just use Wild Empathy to make them an ally, or just summon a loyal animal that would cost a fighter GP. Having an army of critters is the druid's job.
1st level Domain (fire) Illumian (krau) Wizard
trait: spellgifted (evocation)
flaw: noncombatant
flaw: murky-eyed
Str 8 Dex 16 (pb 10) Con 13 (pb 5) Int 16 (pb 10) Wis 8 Cha 8
racial Su and Ex: luminous sigils, power sigil (krau), glyphic resonance, final utterance, superior literacy
feats: precocious apprentice (scorching ray), fiery burst, bloodline of fire, scribe scroll
spells per day:
0: 3 + 1 domain
1: 1 + 1 int + 1 domain
2: 0 + 1 feat
attacks:
fiery burst (range 30', radius 5', damage 2d6, Ref half DC 15)
ranged touch +3
club: melee -3 1d6-1; ranged +3 1d6-1
spells known:
0 - all
1 - kelgore's firebolt, mage armor, power word: pain, power word: fatigue, enlarge person, true strike, burning hands (domain)
2 - scorching ray
example spells prepared:
0 - daze x3, flare (domain)
1 - kelgore's firebolt, true strike, burning hands (domain)
2 - scorching ray
caster level:
general 1 (1 base + 1 power sigil krau - 1 trait)
kelgore's firebolt 5 (5d6 at 150')
burning hands 7 (5d4 cone)
scorching ray 7 (two rays 4d6 each)
init +3, speed 30', hp 5
AC varies (dex +3, shield +2, mage armor +4)
fort +1, ref +3, will +1 (+2 racial v shadow spells)
skills: handle animal, concentration, spellcraft, ?, ?
equipment
heavy wooden shield 7gp
component pouch 5gp
spellbook (free)
outfit (free)
club (free)
5 self-crafted scrolls (mage armor, pw:pain, pw:fatigue, enlarge person, true strike) 62.5gp
Variant: gain animal companion of half druid progression, lose familiar (starting money is not enough for familiar ritual anyway)
Animal Companion: war-trained riding dog
init +2, speed 40', hp 13, AC 16 (14-20), fort +5 ref +5 will +1
attack: bite +3 1d6+3
attack when enlarged: bite +3 1d8+4
reach 5' (10' when enlarged)
SA: trip
Link, Share Spells
Tricks: ?
Tactics:
Normally, the wizard simply uses fiery burst. If anything gets close, the dog deals with it. Fiery burst is not affected by arcane spell failure, which allows the wizard to use a shield. It can be removed when resorting to spells.
There are several tactics against stronger opponents:
at distance: kelgore's firebolt or true strike+kelgore's firebolt
at closer distance: power word fatigue followed by power word pain or dog charge. Use daze to lock humanoid opponents.
at very close distance: burning hands
If that's not enough, there's always scorching ray for 2 x 4d6 (av. 28). A DC 8 CL check is needed to cast it, however it succeeds automatically. Use true strike to increase the hit chance.
A special note must be made about Share Spells and its tactics. It allows the wizard to share Mage Armor with his companion. More interestingly, it can allow sharing Enlarge Person and True Strike. So, cast Enlarge Person, share with dog (despite it not being a humanoid), move behind it, then enjoy the benefits of the dog's improved reach, damage, and trip. Boost with True Strike if needed.
The PHB I have says I can (read the entire paragraph). Anyway, if you don't like crocs change it to a war-trained riding dog, it's good and can use trip in synergy with enlarge.
The SRD and PHB2 say you need to be a level 4 druid. In the case of your character, he needs to be level 8.
The PHB I have says I can (read the entire paragraph). Anyway, if you don't like crocs change it to a war-trained riding dog, it's good and can use trip in synergy with enlarge.
Don't forget an animal companion too!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a
But the druid gets an animal for free, and it advances in HD, too. Furthermore, they can just use Wild Empathy to make them an ally, or just summon a loyal animal that would cost a fighter GP. Having an army of critters is the druid's job.
A druid can also handle his animal companion as a free action, while any other character with any other animal needs to use at LEAST a move action.
Goodbye, full-attack.
After all, the druid can never summon a riding dor trained for war. He can only summon a regular training dog and then spend a week to train it.
In that time how many levels may the fighter have earned by actually fighting enemies? 1? 2? And how much loot? Certainly more than enough to get magical equipment to copy the druid's abilities.
1st level Orc Barbarian
trait: quick
flaw: pathetic (Cha)
flaw: murky-eyed
Str 22 (pb 16) Dex 11 (pb 3) Con 14 (pb 6) Int 6 Wis 6 Cha 4
racial Ex: darkvision 60', light sensitivity
class Ex: lion totem (pounce), illiterate, whirling frenzy 3/day
feats: powerful charge, extra rage, mad foam rager
attacks:
frenzy pounce +9/+9 2d6+1d8+12 (if both attacks hit, and chance is good for low CR opponents, av. damage is 47)
frenzy fullattack +7/+7 2d6+12
init +0, speed 40', hp 13
AC 13 (15 in frenzy)
fort +4, ref +0, will -2
skills: ?, ?
equipment
studded leather armor 25gp
greatsword 50gp
cold iron guisarme 18gp
sling (free)
cold iron bullets
outfit (free)
Tactics:
Pounce and kill. Use guisarme instead of greatsword when reach is needed.
Extra Rage for all-day effectiveness.
I preferred Mad Foam Rager over damage feats like Powerful Attack/Weapon Focus/Rapid Assault because it can critically delay various charge-counter tactics.
Ok, so can someone explain me where in the druid's class features says all villains will stop their evil activities for weeks or even months so the druid can train all his animals properly?
After all, the druid can never summon a riding dor trained for war. He can only summon a regular training dog and then spend a week to train it.
In that time how many levels may the fighter have earned by actually fighting enemies? 1? 2? And how much loot? Certainly more than enough to get magical equipment to copy the druid's abilities.
Animal Companions get bonus tricks you know. Like.. Attack or whatever trick you want.
These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
Animal Companions get bonus tricks you know. Like.. Attack or whatever trick you want.
Not many. It is a limitation. Our party druid is facing it right now. As long as you can start with a pre-trained animal companion, and never let it die permanently, it isn't an issue. If you have to get a new one mid-campaign, you will need some down time to train it properly, though.
I don't see why starting at 1st level you can't say that you've already trained one, though. And the downtime is no more of a limitation than that needed for crafting powerful magic items at the upper levels. I definitely think he's grasping at straws with this argument, regardless.
Not many. It is a limitation. Our party druid is facing it right now. As long as you can start with a pre-trained animal companion, and never let it die permanently, it isn't an issue. If you have to get a new one mid-campaign, you will need some down time to train it properly, though.
I don't see why starting at 1st level you can't say that you've already trained one, though. And the downtime is no more of a limitation than that needed for crafting powerful magic items at the upper levels. I definitely think he's grasping at straws with this argument, regardless.
Yep, its a limitation. But this entire thread has been nothing about versatility, which is kind of wrong. Cause thats where casters *really* gets overpowered compared to a fighter.
Proving the point about Item Creation feats. Apparently, only in worlds where you can pull out a picture of an item and tell (not ask) your DM I go to the store and buy this, can Optimized fighters exist.
It's true, no one ever quests for a specific item or has one commissioned. I can't think of any novels, movies, TV series, or comics where the items were already made and the characters sought them out. It just never happens.
Magic item shops don't have to exist for characters to get the gear they desire. Only in games where the DM is a jerk will non-casters have to deal with what they get while the casters can custom-make everything they desire. This is what makes casters appear overpowered to some, DMs who favor one over the other.
Ok, so can someone explain me where in the druid's class features says all villains will stop their evil activities for weeks or even months so the druid can train all his animals properly?
Most worlds have tons of adventurers. This is the same reason why soldiers can take leave during combat or police officers can take a vacation. There are others that are available to fill the role.
After all, the druid can never summon a riding dor trained for war. He can only summon a regular training dog and then spend a week to train it.
In that time how many levels may the fighter have earned by actually fighting enemies? 1? 2? And how much loot? Certainly more than enough to get magical equipment to copy the druid's abilities.
Of course, this could be a good time for the fighter to use some craft skills, the mage can work on some items, the cleric can prep some healing items, the rogue can be gathering tons of information on the townsfolk for later plot hooks or just to have the information (like maps) when the party need it next.
There is no need to leave one party member behind while everyone else levels. This is a team sport.
Anyway, emeraldstreak, may I suggest that you use the elite array rather than the point buy. The reason is because it's too easy to dump stats that may at first seem irrelevant. The characters you are building don't feel organic. Since this thread is about the overpowerdness of casters the builds should be ones that would actually see play in most games. If one of my players came to the table with stats dumped like that I would hand it back and say they need to roleplay it correctly (I will deduct XP for crap like this) or rebuild it.
The thing is, a wizard, cleric, or druid can- given a day or two and some information- kill basically anything of even a semi-appropriate CR. If you make intelligent spell decisions, more so once you add in Complete Magus and Spell Compendium, but it matters a ton in the PHB as well, then you can wander around prepared for almost anything. Again, at higher levels this is more obvious. At low levels you are a ****** fighter with some tricks unless you super specialize your character. One of my favorite low level mages is the Beguiler/Ultimate Magus That is a really fun one to play.
Chris
I miss multi-quote...
Anyway, emeraldstreak, may I suggest that you use the elite array rather than the point buy. The reason is because it's too easy to dump stats that may at first seem irrelevant. The characters you are building don't feel organic. Since this thread is about the overpowerdness of casters the builds should be ones that would actually see play in most games. If one of my players came to the table with stats dumped like that I would hand it back and say they need to roleplay it correctly (I will deduct XP for crap like this) or rebuild it.
May I suggest you stick to the Character Development board.
It's true, no one ever quests for a specific item or has one commissioned. I can't think of any novels, movies, TV series, or comics where the items were already made and the characters sought them out. It just never happens.
So the fighter gets to go out and quest for every item he needs in his build? And the rest of the party is just going to follow along with this, or take time outs while he scours the world for trinkets? How does he even know about the Cloak of the Montebank? Lots of Knowledge Arcana maybe? or Spellcraft? And if it gets sundered, or he fights one of the monsters that can destroy your X, they are all going to get back on their horses and find him a new one?
In some games, commissioning items is difficult. In worlds where casters are rare, and high level characters are rare (and these conditions do not make your DM a jerk), there may only be a handful of characters in a kingdom who can make magic items. Once you weed out the ones who are 1. Hostile 2. Otherwise Occupied 3. Didn't pick the feat for the item you wanted or 4. Don't have the right spell, it can very easily become impossible.
Magic item shops don't have to exist for characters to get the gear they desire. Only in games where the DM is a jerk will non-casters have to deal with what they get while the casters can custom-make everything they desire. This is what makes casters appear overpowered to some, DMs who favor one over the other.
So, by extension of this argument, any game in which the GM doesn't give the casters as much time as they need to scribe scrolls and custom make items is a jerk because he is favoring the non casters over the casters? Your argument is incredibly bad. In some campaigns it is one way, in some it is the other, in some it is mixed. That isn't necessarily the DM being a jerk, that is him creating his world.
In a campaign where there is no downtime, the item creation feat is useless. The flip side is there are other campaigns where many non-caster builds are going to be gimped unless they have a caster. What makes the caster overpowered is that in a campaign where Item Creation sucks, he just skips the feat. In a campaign where item creation is necessary for play, the fighter has no good options other than begging his party for the gear to make him viable, or to go with him to quest for gear to make him viable, or take Leadership and get a Item Creation monkey (which should certainly be disallowed in this thread, since the requirement to have a pet caster would certainly seem to fall on the "casters are overpowered" side of the equation.)
May I suggest you stick to the Character Development board.
You might not have noticed, but the build also had a will save of -1. He's biting dust when the first spell hits him.
>blowing my own horn<
Use that, get a Planetar buddy from the Summoner Domain's 8th level spell, and watch as it wipes the floor with CRs 5-10 above your level.
Uses Core + CDiv + CArc and two items (one of which is unnecessary).
So the fighter gets to go out and quest for every item he needs in his build? And the rest of the party is just going to follow along with this, or take time outs while he scours the world for trinkets? How does he even know about the Cloak of the Montebank? Lots of Knowledge Arcana maybe? or Spellcraft? And if it gets sundered, or he fights one of the monsters that can destroy your X, they are all going to get back on their horses and find him a new one?
That's exactly what I said. No, wait. It isn't even close. Since no caster is going to have every item creation feat, there may be items they want to quest for also. I also don't see any need for spellcraft or knowledge checks in this case. To say that I think it would be cool if I had some way to teleport once in a while does not require anything other than a DM who isn't a a control-freak jerk.
In some games, commissioning items is difficult. In worlds where casters are rare, and high level characters are rare (and these conditions do not make your DM a jerk), there may only be a handful of characters in a kingdom who can make magic items. Once you weed out the ones who are 1. Hostile 2. Otherwise Occupied 3. Didn't pick the feat for the item you wanted or 4. Don't have the right spell, it can very easily become impossible.
So since in some games commissioning items is difficult, we should assume that it can't happen in any game? In games where casters are rare we wouldn't really have a problem with overpowered casters.
While not every item can be quested for, to assume that none can is false.
So, by extension of this argument, any game in which the GM doesn't give the casters as much time as they need to scribe scrolls and custom make items is a jerk because he is favoring the non casters over the casters? Your argument is incredibly bad. In some campaigns it is one way, in some it is the other, in some it is mixed. That isn't necessarily the DM being a jerk, that is him creating his world.
The DM that intentionally strips the characters of their class abilities for the sole reason of stripping them of their abilities is a jerk and a poor DM. The player that takes feats that require days on end to use, knowing that the campaign is time dependent is an idiot.
In a campaign where there is no downtime, the item creation feat is useless. The flip side is there are other campaigns where many non-caster builds are going to be gimped unless they have a caster. What makes the caster overpowered is that in a campaign where Item Creation sucks, he just skips the feat. In a campaign where item creation is necessary for play, the fighter has no good options other than begging his party for the gear to make him viable, or to go with him to quest for gear to make him viable, or take Leadership and get a Item Creation monkey (which should certainly be disallowed in this thread, since the requirement to have a pet caster would certainly seem to fall on the "casters are overpowered" side of the equation.)
I was refuting the point you made about how the non-caster cannot ever get the gear he wants because DMs should not allow it. If that was not your point, then I suggest you clarify your stance. Gear is part of every character (check the DMG on page 3). By denying the appropriate gear to any character, you are intentionally hindering that character.
May I suggest you stick to the Character Development board.
Well then why not just go all out and put the unnecessary stats at 3 and call it good? The point of this thread is to show overpowered casters as they actually apply to campaigns rather than just throwing out some numbers. If the character isn't actually playable, then it isn't overpowered it's actually underpowered. True optimization is more than beefing up one ability.
Well then why not just go all out and put the unnecessary stats at 3 and call it good? The point of this thread is to show overpowered casters as they actually apply to campaigns rather than just throwing out some numbers. If the character isn't actually playable, then it isn't overpowered it's actually underpowered. True optimization is more than beefing up one ability.
Pointbuy doesn't allow you to go below 8 before racial penalties.
1st level Orc Barbarian
trait: quick
flaw: pathetic (Cha)
flaw: murky-eyed
Str 22 (pb 16) Dex 11 (pb 3) Con 14 (pb 6) Int 6 Wis 6 Cha 4
racial Ex: darkvision 60', light sensitivity
class Ex: lion totem (pounce), illiterate, whirling frenzy 3/day
feats: powerful charge, extra rage, mad foam rager
We were asked to use Elite array. That drops your strength to 19.
frenzy pounce +7/+7 2d6+1d8+8: Av damage is 39)
frenzy fullattack +5/+5 2d6+8
will -2: Also, your chance of saving against any will save spell is terrible. A first level sorcerer, CHA 18 (since you got STR 18), Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus will have a DC of 17 for sleep, or something else that will destroy you in one go. From 100+ feet/away. Your chance of saving? 10%
And Meyer's may try to say "Oh, but the fighter can kill the sorcerer, so they're equal." I'll save some time by arguing against this in advance.
100+ feet.
True optimization is more than beefing up one ability.
OMG. If this isn't one of the most true things I have ever read on these boards.
It seems that true optimization has been forgotten.
Is someone suggesting that people can't get the gear they want in a campaign?
It's not me this time. Don't look at me.
It's not me this time. Don't look at me.
I always close my eyes before I start dispensing truth, so don't worry
.And Meyer's may try to say "Oh, but the fighter can kill the sorcerer, so they're equal." I'll save some time by arguing against this in advance.
100+ feet.
If only there were some sort of weapon that the fighter could use that would allow him to deal damage at a distance greater than 100 feet. Something sort of like a bow, but a long one. One that deals an average damage equal to a sorcerer's max HP from Hit Die at level 1.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
Your sleep spell puts the fighter to sleep while his party kills you. On the flip side, the fighter kills you before your party avenges your death.
If only there were some sort of weapon that the fighter could use that would allow him to deal damage at a distance greater than 100 feet. Something sort of like a bow, but a long one. One that deals an average damage equal to a sorcerer's max HP from Hit Die at level 1.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
Yes, such a weapon should be horribly overpowered, especially if you somehow could make the pull harder so you could make use of your 16-18 strength.
Pointbuy doesn't allow you to go below 8 before racial penalties.
Fair enough. I don't use point buy very often so I forgot that rule. It doesn't really change my argument though. Ignoring half of a character is really not a good representation of overpowered in any sense.
Your sleep spell puts the fighter to sleep while his party kills you. On the flip side, the fighter kills you before your party avenges your death.
I think it would go something like this:
Fighter's party wins init
Barbarian shoots at Sorc with Composite Long Bow. Fighter's ranged attack: +1 (No Dex bonus and no Power Throw)
Sorc's AC: 10+1(assume 13 dex)+4(Mage armor)=15. (The Sorcerer is going to be an idiot not to burn a slot for Mage Armor if he's in hostile territory, but if he is AC=11).
Barbarian's Hit percent: 30% (50% without M.A)
If hit, Barbarian's Kill percent: 100% (minimum damage 5, maximum 13)
//Assumption that, man down, S's party will be defeated
Chance for B to one-shot S: 30%
Without Mage Armor: 50%
It is pointless to speculate about the other members of the party, and whether the Barbarian's party will react quicker than the Sorcerer's *cough*.
Sorc's AC: 10+1(assume 13 dex)+4(Mage armor)=15. (The Sorcerer is going to be an idiot not to burn a slot for Mage Armor if he's in hostile territory, but if he is AC=11).
Barbarian's Hit percent: 30% (50% without M.A)
If hit, Barbarian's Kill percent: 100% (minimum damage 5, maximum 13)
//Assumption that, man down, S's party will be defeated
Chance for B to one-shot S: 30%
Without Mage Armor: 50%
It is pointless to speculate about the other members of the party, and whether the Barbarian's party will react quicker than the Sorcerer's *cough*.
@Bob Loblaw: Hey guess what? The new computer I got (after my last one got trashed during the move) got zapped by a bug. Luckily, my roommate managed to find the bad clusters and remove them, but I lost all of my stuff in the process (including all of my fighter builds). I know you have several of them, and I was wondering if you could e-mail them to me when you have a chance (the only one I have is the Scholar Fighter of Aureon). That way, I can e-mail them to Kratch.
P.S. For anyone that keeps an optimized music list like I do (;) ), beware of Walking on Broken Glass by the Eurythmics. It messed my computer up
.I think it would go something like this:
Well, Ikeren said 'fighter'. I wasn't assuming that the sample barbarian would kill a sorcerer with a longbow, since his chance to hit at ranged is small. Also, I'm not assuming a party for each character. Either one is the enemy, and the other has a party, or vice versa.
A fighter with a 14 dexterity and Weapon Focus: Longbow has a +4 to attack at ranged.
The sorcerer may or may not know the spell Mage Armor, but I do believe the point is a one-hit kill. So the sorcerer will be flat-footed in the case of the fighter firing a bow. In the case of the sorcerer casting Sleep, the fighter will be flat-footed.
Also, I'm wondering how the sorcerer has an 18 charisma. And why the barbarian (or fighter) couldn't simply run next to the sorcerer, forcing a DC 16 concentration check to cast the spell in the first place.
I think it would go something like this:Fighter's party wins initBarbarian shoots at Sorc with Composite Long Bow. Fighter's ranged attack: +1 (No Dex bonus and no Power Throw)
Sorc's AC: 10+1(assume 13 dex)+4(Mage armor)=15. (The Sorcerer is going to be an idiot not to burn a slot for Mage Armor if he's in hostile territory, but if he is AC=11).
Barbarian's Hit percent: 30% (50% without M.A)
If hit, Barbarian's Kill percent: 100% (minimum damage 5, maximum 13)
//Assumption that, man down, S's party will be defeated
Chance for B to one-shot S: 30%
Without Mage Armor: 50%
It is pointless to speculate about the other members of the party, and whether the Barbarian's party will react quicker than the Sorcerer's *cough*.
Well, the guy said 'fighter'. I wasn't assuming that the sample barbarian would kill a sorcerer with a longbow, since his chance to hit at ranged is small. Also, I'm not assuming a party for each character. Either one is the enemy, and the other has a party, or vice versa.
A fighter with a 14 dexterity and Weapon Focus: Longbow has a +4 to attack at ranged.
The sorcerer may or may not know the spell Mage Armor, but I do believe the point is a one-hit kill. So the sorcerer will be flat-footed in the case of the fighter firing a bow. In the case of the sorcerer casting Sleep, the fighter will be flat-footed.
Also, I'm wondering how the sorcerer has an 18 charisma. And why the barbarian (or fighter) couldn't simply run next to the sorcerer, forcing a DC 16 concentration check to cast the spell in the first place.
Oh, sorry. I misunderstood you.
Frankly, if you have a 4v1 fight in early levels, the 4 is probably going to wipe the floor with the 1. I was assuming a 4v4, 100 ft apart, with the sample barbarian as fighter and a generic sorcerer (it's quite easy to get an 18 with point buy) as the spellcaster.
@Phaxi: ...Yeah. I was wondering why people were suggesting that that sample barbarian go ranged... I guess I didn't read it carefully enough.
Oh, sorry. I misunderstood you.
Frankly, if you have a 4v1 fight in early levels, the 4 is probably going to wipe the floor with the 1. I was assuming a 4v4, 100 ft apart, with the sample barbarian as fighter and a generic sorcerer (it's quite easy to get an 18 with point buy) as the spellcaster.
No problem. I'm always considering things as they apply to an actual game. Either the overpowered sorcerer is a PC in a party, going up against a CR 1 fighter, or the overpowered sorcerer is a CR 1 enemy going up against a fighter in a party.
I'm not sure what we can assume the layout to be, only that this *can* happen at a distance of 110' (at level 1). That's longbow range.
And while an 18 is possible with 25 point buy, at what cost? It is easy to say an 18 is possible without regards to your hit points or AC. Likewise, a sorcerer only knows two first level spells at level one. I can see the argument for Sleep, but Mage Armor? This overpowered caster would have no spell options against anything immune to mind-affecting effects, or sleep effects.
Yes, such a weapon should be horribly overpowered, especially if you somehow could make the pull harder so you could make use of your 16-18 strength.
It is called a sling. And they are free.
There is also bows, but no first level character can afford a decent bow
Fortunately almost all low level encounters happen in small dungeon rooms, so range is rarely a problem. Except for arcane casters, at low level they have many problems with being too close to the enemy and going into negatives with the first blow. 100' is very, very rare in those low level modules.
1) Why are we using Elite Array? Is that a common character creation method in actual play? I don't think I've ever heard of a group using it. Also I honestly think it favors the melee classes slightly. 25 Point Buy has been mentioned, lets use that.
2) Why are we using level 1? Almost anyone can be one shot at level 1. Level 3->9 are far better examples of low level play.
3) Why are we using the sorcerer to talk about overpowered casters? They are by far the weakest pure caster in the PHB.
So here's my 25pt buy Conjurer.
Human Conjurer 3 (Immediate Magic Variant) (25 pt buy)
Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8
Fort: 3, Ref 3, Will 5
HP: 15 HP (4+2.5+2.5+6) (2.5 for average HP)
AC: 12 normal, 16 with Mage Armor, 20 with shield
BaB: +1, Init +2
Barred Schools: Evocation, Enchantment
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, Iron Will
Abilities: Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt 3x/day <- Note, thats 3x per day he can completely avoid a melee attack.
Spells of Note: Glitterdust, Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Cloud of Bewilderment
The Sculpted Grease is especially vicious, as is Glitterdust and Cloud of Bewilderment. Reflex, Will and Fort save or be screwed spells, with a DC of 14/15/15.
At 5th Level, he takes the Spont. Divination option, allowing him to cast any divination spell from any class list arcane or divine by sacrificing an equal level spell slot. At this level he adds Stinking Cloud to his list of power spells. He has probably obtained a +2 Int Headband, increasing his DC's and uses of abrupt jaunt.
At 7th he is a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2. Solid Fog now comes into play, as does Enervate. Many powerful spells are now scupted, giving him 4 10' cubes instead of the normal area, allowing much greater control of the battlefield.
At 9th, he is a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4. He now is nearly untouchable. Spont. castings of Divine Insight (SpCompend), Persistent Spell and Metamagic Effect now allow for the persisting of several spells at the cost of a 2nd level slot, and the slot of the spell to be persistent. At this point you can be nearly anything you wish. You are continually Greater Blinking, Alter Self, Shield. Greater Mage Armor lasts 18 hours, . You're looking at about a 30ish AC. Of course, if you go back and start as a Lesser Teifling, you're now a Dwarf Ancestor all day, sitting in the low 40's for AC.
At level 3, his weakest level compared to a melee, he makes several fights trivial. By level 5, hes ending fights with his spells. By 7, hes contributes far more to game play than almost any melee can. By 9, hes broken beyond anything a noncaster can do.
Setanos, busted! You're going Incantatrix, are you not? That Iron will in your build revealed your goals!
Well..yes, although I suspect the notes on level 7 and 9 where I state hes a Wizard 5/Incantatrix X may have been a stronger clue :P
Was there something I missed removing Incantatrix as an allowed class for this exercise?
True, Incantatrix is excessive. I suppose IotSV could also be considered excessive, or SCM. Then again, I was expecting an optimized opponent, not a pure fighter. You'd loose your persistent buffs, which is a good part of the builds power, but there's still plenty of power to beat a melee. Let me see what I can do without it.
Incantatrix 10 levels. Initiate 7 levels. Shadowcraft mage 5 levels. I'm just not happy before there's a 3-level Wizard PrC that makes every single caster cry so hard that there's literally going to be a river. A bunch of rivers forming a sea and drowning the world to be exact.
Since no caster is going to have every item creation feat, there may be items they want to quest for also.
Sure, except that they probably picked the feat(s) most critical to them so they probably have access to many of the most critical items in their build. Also, in conditions in which item commissioning is difficult, the casters have a head start in that they can contribute feats or spells if the available crafter doesn't have them. In the example that sparked the discussion, the fighter would need a Sorc/Wis with Dimension Door (I think) and Craft wonderous items. A caster PC could possibly provide either one, thereby significantly enhancing his (already superior) selection of items available.
So since in some games commissioning items is difficult, we should assume that it can't happen in any game?
Not even vaguely true. As I said originally, the advantage that casters have is that if the campaign is hard on getting items, they have a way around it. If the DM is easy on giving characters what they want, the casters simply pick different feats. Item creation isn't good in every game, but if you need it, you NEED it.
In games where casters are rare we wouldn't really have a problem with overpowered casters.
Wow. So not true. Games where casters are rare make PC casters significantly stronger. Both for item creation reasons as discussed and because there are less people around to counter their abilities.
While not every item can be quested for, to assume that none can is false.
Very true. Whether or not the exact one you want can be or not is up to the DM.
The DM that intentionally strips the characters of their class abilities for the sole reason of stripping them of their abilities is a jerk and a poor DM.
Uhm, yes, I suppose. He could have other reasons for his campaign background tho.
The player that takes feats that require days on end to use, knowing that the campaign is time dependent is an idiot.
1. Bob, you are pretty free with the name-calling about general categories of players you haven't met. There are lots of reasons why one would make a bad feat choice, including not knowing the nature of the campaign in advance or even (shock) role-playing.
2. By that logic, if a DM makes it clear that a campaign world has low magic availability, isn't any character who makes a build which needs equipment that he can't provide equally foolish?
I was refuting the point you made about how the non-caster cannot ever get the gear he wants because DMs should not allow it. If that was not your point, then I suggest you clarify your stance.
My stance is that in campaigns where gear IS difficult to obtain, the Caster is even more overpowered than in other worlds because he has the option of building the gear he needs. Also because, as someone else pointed out, the caster has a lot more options to handle the holes in his item inventory through the variety available in his spell list.
Gear is part of every character (check the DMG on page 3). By denying the appropriate gear to any character, you are intentionally hindering that character.
Page 3 of my DMG is the index. I don't see anywhere that it says I have to have a specific magic exotic weapon included in the treasures in my dungeon. As a DM, I would say, "Hmm, maybe you should have picked the longsword, magic longswords everywhere". I don't think I have ever seen a Cape of the Montebank included in a dungeon, and while I would in general allow a PC to quest for one, I have certainly played in games in which circumstances wouldn't have allowed it, and in games where other the PCs (some of whom WERE jerks) simply were too selfish or goal focused to go along with such side questing.
Now, in Forgotten Realms, or Eberron, there is generally no problem on any of this unless you found somewhere REALLY remote. But IN those campaign worlds that are otherwise (Birthright is the best example I can think of, but there are others) the casters are the irreplaceable lifeline between the party and the gear it needs. You can't get much more power inequality than that without shifting games to Rifts or Stormbringer.
stuff
This sort of posting back and forth makes me sad...the thread WAS going quite well...
will -2: Also, your chance of saving against any will save spell is terrible. A first level sorcerer, CHA 18 (since you got STR 18), Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus will have a DC of 17 for sleep, or something else that will destroy you in one go. From 100+ feet/away. Your chance of saving? 10%
100+ feet.
Due to the focus of this thread, the build is meant for party PvE against monsters and NPCs from official products.
PvP arenas, especially 1v1, don't have much in common with the normal DnD campaign. Obviously, something like a stealthy whisper gnome build will do a lot better in killing casters at lvl 1, and something like a monk deep dwarf build will do a lot better in surviving them.
You brought up a valid weakness of the orc build. But why stop? My build used flaws, so an equally optimized caster build could be a 22 Int old gray elf wizard with precocious apprentice (blindness/deafness), spell focus:necromancy and greater spell focus:necromancy.
The Blindness spell has DC 20, faster casting time than Sleep, more target types than sleep, and the same range or so. It greatly hinders the barbarian's mobility and makes him a sitting duck. Would the "above average" barbarian base fort and Con help? Only in 25% of the cases. In 75% the barbarian loses, loses regardless of his will save. And there's the Ref save to buff too.
But what if the optimized opponent is another fighter-type, let's say with increased reach via abberant feats and Stand Still? What if the opponent is small size, high dex, and has martial study:counter charge? What if the opponent build manages to grapple, trip, or disarm via readied action with 5' step? What if dozens more optimized tactics are thrown in the way?
Optimizing all your defenses against all other possible optimized builds at level one is a waste of resource.
Instead, an elegant solution: mad foam rager. Delay, pounce, kill.
Use all other available resources to focus on the barbarian job in the PvE party, namely melee, and do it superbly. Add extra rage for viability in multiple encounters per day. That's it.
The sorcerer has a with just 18 CHA has a 75% chance to take out 4/round, 4 times per day.
Even in PvM, optimization by the numbers says that is better.
And consider the fire-mage I presented as well. Straight, by the numbers. It doesn't matter PvM or PvP. It has a higher chance to hit, with higher damage dealth per hit. The limitation is number of times per day, but unless your DM runs significantly higher than the average 4 encounters per day, the caster will, by the numbers, fare better.
Consider, a group of goblins...The sorcerer has a with just 18 CHA has a 75% chance to take out 4/round, 4 times per day.
This is the point where I can make the noob argument:
"But what if they are elf warriors? You kill none!"
At which point you can make the noob argument:
"But my second spell known is Color Spray. I still kill more than you!"
And then I can make the next noob argument:
"But they are actually elf warrior zombies! No, you don't kill them!"
Let's save some time and do real optimization by the numbers, which is, run completed builds like your fire-mage and my barbarian thru all the CR 1 encounters in the MM, four at a time before rest.
It doesn't matter PvM or PvP.
It's pointless to argue about PvP. Discuss it, sure, but argue? Arguments in PvP are resolved on arenas, not threads.
Right. Consider, a group of goblins. The Frenzy can take out 2/round, all day (assuming no AoO's - I don't think he had cleave). With an attack of +9, that's an average chance to hit of 70%, average damage above goblin HP, with another 70% chance for the second attack to hit and kill another.
The sorcerer has a with just 18 CHA has a 75% chance to take out 4/round, 4 times per day.
Even in PvM, optimization by the numbers says that is better.
And consider the fire-mage I presented as well. Straight, by the numbers. It doesn't matter PvM or PvP. It has a higher chance to hit, with higher damage dealth per hit. The limitation is number of times per day, but unless your DM runs significantly higher than the average 4 encounters per day, the caster will, by the numbers, fare better.
But I don't believe that better means overpowered.
And I'd like to see this sorcerer's stats with this 18 charisma getting thrown about.
@Braithwaite: I'll search for the text in the DMG concerning magic items. So far, you seem to be speaking of the exception, not the norm. Magic items should be available to PC's one way or another. No, it doesn't have to be a giant magic item megastore hyperbole. There are all sorts of ways to allow your PC's to get items without questing for them, and they can purchase items without you having to justify some wal-martesque department store either.
Let's save some time and do real optimization by the numbers, which is, run completed builds like your fire-mage and my barbarian thru all the CR 1 encounters in the MM, four at a time before rest.
Beat me to it. This is what I plan on doing after spell selection and coming up with a build.
My offer of building Clerics and Druids to counter any Fighter build is still valid. Moreover, my signature has a bunch of stuff comparing Fighters and Druids.
Thanksgiving/family stuff makes posting much less frequent than before.
Tshern, this thread is not comparing fighters to cleric/druids ... it is casters to noncasters. Someone posted a barbarian build ... that might be a good model to base off of (unless this has already been done, or the barbarian debunked as invalid).
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
I miss multi-quote...
Anyway, emeraldstreak, may I suggest that you use the elite array rather than the point buy. The reason is because it's too easy to dump stats that may at first seem irrelevant. The characters you are building don't feel organic. Since this thread is about the overpowerdness of casters the builds should be ones that would actually see play in most games. If one of my players came to the table with stats dumped like that I would hand it back and say they need to roleplay it correctly (I will deduct XP for crap like this) or rebuild it.
May I suggest you stick to the Character Development board.
I think Bob might have expressed it better by saying, the rules posted for character creation in post one specified elite array. If it is not used, then the build cannot be considered.
Just to be an annoying smartmouth, here's a low-level overpowered cleric:
>blowing my own horn<
Use that, get a Planetar buddy from the Summoner Domain's 8th level spell, and watch as it wipes the floor with CRs 5-10 above your level.
Uses Core + CDiv + CArc and two items (one of which is unnecessary).
This doesn't work per the last post in your thread.
Additionally, it doesn't work because it allows you to swap a prepared spell for a different one. I don't see how a DM can consider a spontaneously gotten spell to be a prepared one.
Nice try though. Additionally, it is tricks like this (that don't work) that demonstrate one possible reason why casters are overpowered (player/DM unfamiliarity with the spells/feats)
will -2: Also, your chance of saving against any will save spell is terrible. A first level sorcerer, CHA 18 (since you got STR 18), Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus will have a DC of 17 for sleep, or something else that will destroy you in one go. From 100+ feet/away. Your chance of saving? 10%
And Meyer's may try to say "Oh, but the fighter can kill the sorcerer, so they're equal." I'll save some time by arguing against this in advance.
100+ feet.
Actually, although I might mention something about not all combats start 100 feet away, I would not handwave a PvP statement where the sorcerer has a 90% chance of winning. It boils down to initiative ... and the barbarian better hope the fight starts less than 100 feet away.
However, if the barbarian carries a bird cage (with birds in it), then he can become immune to sleep (targetting the lowest HD creatures first) ... but that is neither here nor there.
Just a few questions:
1) Why are we using Elite Array? Is that a common character creation method in actual play? I don't think I've ever heard of a group using it. Also I honestly think it favors the melee classes slightly. 25 Point Buy has been mentioned, lets use that.
We are using elite array, as that is what is specified.
2) Why are we using level 1? Almost anyone can be one shot at level 1. Level 3->9 are far better examples of low level play.
I had asked for low level overpowered casters, if you want a level other than 1, then great.
3) Why are we using the sorcerer to talk about overpowered casters? They are by far the weakest pure caster in the PHB.
Because people have chosen to ...
So here's my 25pt buy Conjurer.Show
Human Conjurer 3 (Immediate Magic Variant) (25 pt buy)
Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8
Fort: 3, Ref 3, Will 5
HP: 15 HP (4+2.5+2.5+6) (2.5 for average HP)
AC: 12 normal, 16 with Mage Armor, 20 with shield
BaB: +1, Init +2
Barred Schools: Evocation, Enchantment
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, Iron Will
Abilities: Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt 3x/day <- Note, thats 3x per day he can completely avoid a melee attack.
Spells of Note: Glitterdust, Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Cloud of Bewilderment
The Sculpted Grease is especially vicious, as is Glitterdust and Cloud of Bewilderment. Reflex, Will and Fort save or be screwed spells, with a DC of 14/15/15.
At 5th Level, he takes the Spont. Divination option, allowing him to cast any divination spell from any class list arcane or divine by sacrificing an equal level spell slot. At this level he adds Stinking Cloud to his list of power spells. He has probably obtained a +2 Int Headband, increasing his DC's and uses of abrupt jaunt.
At 7th he is a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2. Solid Fog now comes into play, as does Enervate. Many powerful spells are now scupted, giving him 4 10' cubes instead of the normal area, allowing much greater control of the battlefield.
At 9th, he is a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4. He now is nearly untouchable. Spont. castings of Divine Insight (SpCompend), Persistent Spell and Metamagic Effect now allow for the persisting of several spells at the cost of a 2nd level slot, and the slot of the spell to be persistent. At this point you can be nearly anything you wish. You are continually Greater Blinking, Alter Self, Shield. Greater Mage Armor lasts 18 hours, . You're looking at about a 30ish AC. Of course, if you go back and start as a Lesser Teifling, you're now a Dwarf Ancestor all day, sitting in the low 40's for AC.
At level 3, his weakest level compared to a melee, he makes several fights trivial. By level 5, hes ending fights with his spells. By 7, hes contributes far more to game play than almost any melee can. By 9, hes broken beyond anything a noncaster can do.
Books used: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting - Race, 2 feats.
Players Handbook 2: 1 spell
Complete Arcane: 2 feats
Unearthed Arcana: Flaws, Traits.
Core: Sorcerer
Sorcerer 1
Strongheart Halfling
STR 8 = 0 points - Age modifier - Racial Modifier - STR 7, -3
Dex 13 - 5 points - Age modifier - Racial Modifier - Dex 14, +2
Con 13 - 5 points - Age modifier - Con 12, +1
Int 9 - 1 point - Age modifier - Int 10 - 0
Wis 9 - 1 point - Age modifier - Wis 10 - 0
Cha 17 - 13 points - Age modifier - Cha 18 - +4
25 points.
Level 1 Feat: Bloodline of Fire - +2 CL to Fire Spells
Human Feat: Spell Thematics, Kelgore's Firebolt, Burning Hands
Flaw 1: Murky Eyed
Flaw 2: Non-Combattant
Flaw Feat 1: Sudden Empower
Flaw Feat 2: Sudden Maximize
Character sheet
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=62529
Stat block:
HP 5, AC 12, init +4, saves 1/2/2.
Spells: Kelgore's Firebolt, 5d6, 17.5 average, ref DC 15 half, SR = 1d6
Burning hands: 5d4, 12.5 average, ref DC 15 half.
Let's save some time and do real optimization by the numbers, which is, run completed builds like your fire-mage and my barbarian thru all the CR 1 encounters in the MM, four at a time before rest.
I would like to refer again to the Optimization by the numbers thread.
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1 (46 detail records)
Avg 12.24 1.54 15.28 11.78 13.80 1.28 3.00 2.85 0.98
Max 31 7 23 20 18 3 6 6 5
HP, init, AC, Touch, Flat foot, fortitude, ref, will. But anyways...do you have a good searchable SRD? The only one I am finding is only giving me 3 entries for CR 1 monsters, which is very odd...
Actually, although I might mention something about not all combats start 100 feet away, I would not handwave a PvP statement where the sorcerer has a 90% chance of winning. It boils down to initiative ... and the barbarian better hope the fight starts less than 100 feet away.
However, if the barbarian carries a bird cage (with birds in it), then he can become immune to sleep (targetting the lowest HD creatures first) ... but that is neither here nor there.
Sleep targets an area, not targets.
Tshern, this thread is not comparing fighters to cleric/druids ... it is casters to noncasters. Someone posted a barbarian build ... that might be a good model to base off of (unless this has already been done, or the barbarian debunked as invalid).
What? Since when did clerics and druids become noncasters? They've got spells, heck, they've got more than the arcane casters. They also have buffs which give them the power of a fighter, and at only the cost of a spell slot.
What? Since when did clerics and druids become noncasters?
I believe he was referring to the other side. Fighter are not all that exist among noncasting classes.
I think ToB was banned, but that'd be a match I'd like to see.
On the caster side, what about some (Sanctum/P.A.) + Reserve feat combos? Unlimited 2d6 Energy Damage at a range is killer to low levels.
Here's my sample wizard Build. (Please improve, I'm not good at this style of optimization.) I'm not saying it's overpowered, but it can make life quite annoying:
Wizard 3
Gnome Wizard 3 (Heading for SCM)
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
Yeah, Fighters aren't the only non-casters. Barbarians are okay for the first few levels, but Rage isn't really that great at high levels. Ranger I can't comment on, and Paladin is widely regarded as a sweet nova-class, but I can't provide any good builds for them.
Correct
I think ToB was banned, but that'd be a match I'd like to see.
ToB is not banned. It is a valid WOTC book and is about noncasters.
On the caster side, what about some (Sanctum/P.A.) + Reserve feat combos? Unlimited 2d6 Energy Damage at a range is killer to low levels.
Sanctum spell will not power reserve feats, as it only is one level higher while in the sanctum, which is not while you are adventuring. Outside the sanctum it is not level 2, which means you no longer meet the prereqs of reserve feats, meaning that you cannot use the feat.
Here's my sample wizard Build. (Please improve, I'm not good at this style of optimization.) I'm not saying it's overpowered, but it can make life quite annoying:Wizard 3Gnome Wizard 3 (Heading for SCM)
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
Actually, although I might mention something about not all combats start 100 feet away, I would not handwave a PvP statement where the sorcerer has a 90% chance of winning. It boils down to initiative ... and the barbarian better hope the fight starts less than 100 feet away.
However, if the barbarian carries a bird cage (with birds in it), then he can become immune to sleep (targetting the lowest HD creatures first) ... but that is neither here nor there.
Sleep targets an area, not targets.
Sorry, I should have said sleep AFFECTS the lowest HD creatures first, not TARGETS, but either way, the birds in the birdcage would be affected before the character holding the birdcage.
My character:
Show
Level 5 Melee:
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 29
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 2 +1 = 3
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Class Features
Evasion
Slashing Rage 1/day
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cload (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3 = 4
Ref 3+2-1=4
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1+1=+11
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 29
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 2 +1 = 3
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Class Features
Evasion
Slashing Rage 1/day
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cload (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3 = 4
Ref 3+2-1=4
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1+1=+11
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder
ToB is not banned. It is a valid WOTC book and is about noncasters.
OK. I didn't know if you thought ToB was 'caster-ish' and not allowable.
Sanctum spell will not power reserve feats, as it only is one level higher while in the sanctum, which is not while you are adventuring. Outside the sanctum it is not level 2, which means you no longer meet the prereqs of reserve feats, meaning that you cannot use the feat.
This guy isn't an adventurer. He is an encounter. He stays in his wizardy-tower-place as an NPC and lets adventurers pick on him.
As to your nitpicks:
Wizard 4
Gnome Wizard 3 (Heading for SCM)
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
1. I don't need that much equipment, so I'll leave it at the scrolls. I might add more if a glaring weakness is pointed out.
2. So he's a CR 4 now.
3. [u]*sigh* I don't, I'm just indicating the level of the spell!
4. Okay, here. If it's over then I bought the spells (or scrols of them):
0: all
1: Magic Missile, Sleep, Color Spray, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat
2: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Summon Monster II
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
1. I don't need that much equipment, so I'll leave it at the scrolls. I might add more if a glaring weakness is pointed out.
2. So he's a CR 4 now.
3. [u]*sigh* I don't, I'm just indicating the level of the spell!
4. Okay, here. If it's over then I bought the spells (or scrols of them):
0: all
1: Magic Missile, Sleep, Color Spray, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat
2: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Summon Monster II
This guy isn't an adventurer. He is an encounter. He stays in his wizardy-tower-place as an NPC and lets adventurers pick on him.
As to your nitpicks:Wizard 4Gnome Wizard 3 (Heading for SCM)
Elite Array
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
hp = 4+3+2+3+3+3=18
AC = 10+1(size)+1(dex)=12
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (1)
Scribe Scroll (b)
Fiery Burst(3)
Typical Spells Prepared:
2(3): Sanctum Scorching Ray
2: Summon Monster II
1: Color Spray
1: Magic Missile
1: Mage Armor
0: Who cares?
This guy can't really avoid, but he take take it for a few rounds due to his gnomic Con. He can dish out 3d6 fire damage at will (though I may be wrong on this) and, if worst comes to worst, he has a scrolls of Invisibility and of Expeditious Retreat that he made (paying to learn spells if necessary).
1. I don't need that much equipment, so I'll leave it at the scrolls. I might add more if a glaring weakness is pointed out.
2. So he's a CR 4 now.
3. [u]*sigh* I don't, I'm just indicating the level of the spell!
4. Okay, here. If it's over then I bought the spells (or scrols of them):
0: all
1: Magic Missile, Sleep, Color Spray, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat
2: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Summon Monster II
A) You wouldn't actually do it -- sure it's easy to say "oh wait, I have birds" on a forum topic, but are you really going to drag them on every campaign?
B) Sleep effects 4HD of creatures. There are no stats for songbirds, but a raven has 1/4 HD. At level 1, you need 13 ravens to protect yourself, and that number decreases by four per level. By the time you're down to one bird, the caster has Web and worse. If you had actual songbirds, you'd likely need twice as many. If you use hawks, you need to afford them, feed them, and somehow manage to keep them from killing each-other.
C) You can't possibly have a counter like this to every random spell. It would cost and weigh too much. And assuming you have just the right ones to deal with whatever wizard you fight is crap.
Encounter 1: This is happening at night, cause as an adventurer I can choose when to run this adventure ...
Show
Blink Dog:
AC 16 (3 dex, 3 nat)
Damage 1d6
To Hit +3
50% miss chance
dimensional door at will 1/round.
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 5 higher, hopefully enough for the win
Attack: I rabid wolf strike it, power attacking for full (+4+5+1+4-4 vs ac 13, 90%) hit
My Damage is (7 str, 1 weapon, 5 average weapon damage, 3.5 stance, 7 rapid wolf stance, 8 power attack), as this is enough to kill it, we will assume I miss due to miss chance.
It attacks (+4 vs 8, 85%), hitting me for 3.5 damage. This activates my fire-riposte, melee touch attack dealing 5d6 damage (+4+5-4 vs 13, 65, 155). Since my last attack missed, this one will hit, dealing 17.5 damage (average damage).
End of round 1: Me: 29.5, It: 4.5
Round 2:
I attack normally (+4+5+1 vs 16, 80%, 235). Missing.
It attacks (+4 vs 12, 65%, 150) for 3.5 damage.
End of round 2: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Round 3:
I regain my maneuvers (swift) and attack normally (80, 315) hitting, but the miss chance makes me miss.
It attacks (+4 vs 12, 65%, 215) but misses.
End of round 3: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Round 4:
I attack it normally (80, 395) hitting for (2d4+1d6+7+1 = 5+3.5+7+1) 16.5, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Honestly, the blink dog should have dimensional doored away, but had it done so, I would have beaten the encounter if it fled, readying an action to attack it if it returned, or charging.
Resources used: None
Blink Dog:
AC 16 (3 dex, 3 nat)
Damage 1d6
To Hit +3
50% miss chance
dimensional door at will 1/round.
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 5 higher, hopefully enough for the win
Attack: I rabid wolf strike it, power attacking for full (+4+5+1+4-4 vs ac 13, 90%) hit
My Damage is (7 str, 1 weapon, 5 average weapon damage, 3.5 stance, 7 rapid wolf stance, 8 power attack), as this is enough to kill it, we will assume I miss due to miss chance.
It attacks (+4 vs 8, 85%), hitting me for 3.5 damage. This activates my fire-riposte, melee touch attack dealing 5d6 damage (+4+5-4 vs 13, 65, 155). Since my last attack missed, this one will hit, dealing 17.5 damage (average damage).
End of round 1: Me: 29.5, It: 4.5
Round 2:
I attack normally (+4+5+1 vs 16, 80%, 235). Missing.
It attacks (+4 vs 12, 65%, 150) for 3.5 damage.
End of round 2: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Round 3:
I regain my maneuvers (swift) and attack normally (80, 315) hitting, but the miss chance makes me miss.
It attacks (+4 vs 12, 65%, 215) but misses.
End of round 3: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Round 4:
I attack it normally (80, 395) hitting for (2d4+1d6+7+1 = 5+3.5+7+1) 16.5, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 26, It: 4.5
Honestly, the blink dog should have dimensional doored away, but had it done so, I would have beaten the encounter if it fled, readying an action to attack it if it returned, or charging.
Resources used: None
Would you consider this guy overpowered?
Nope. Run-of-the-mill, I was designing him more for PvP than anything else.
Here, though. Here's my Ascension #3 (Since I disproved your fears about it's legality). Just ignore this if you have issues with it, I don't really care.
The Character
Venerable Human Cleric 3
Str 5 Dex 4 Con 6 Wis 20 Cha 19 Cha 11
AC=10-3(dex)+2(armor)+1(shield)=10
Domains: Undeath, Luck
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (level 1)
Domain Spontaniety (Luck) (Human bonus)
Divine Metamagic (Sanctum Spell) (level 3)
Equipment:
2 Nightsticks
Buckler
Leather Armor
Item of Cha +2
Item of Wis +2
Scroll of Magic Circle against Chaos
hp=11 (assuming average hp rolls and max at 1st level)
Typical Spells Memorized:
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
1: Bless
1: Light
1: Bless
1: Entropic Shield
2: Enthrall
2: Eagle's Splendor
2: Aid
Note: I am 1000 xp into level 3 and can thus pay for xp costs
Venerable Human Cleric 3
Str 5 Dex 4 Con 6 Wis 20 Cha 19 Cha 11
AC=10-3(dex)+2(armor)+1(shield)=10
Domains: Undeath, Luck
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (level 1)
Domain Spontaniety (Luck) (Human bonus)
Divine Metamagic (Sanctum Spell) (level 3)
Equipment:
2 Nightsticks
Buckler
Leather Armor
Item of Cha +2
Item of Wis +2
Scroll of Magic Circle against Chaos
hp=11 (assuming average hp rolls and max at 1st level)
Typical Spells Memorized:
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
1: Bless
1: Light
1: Bless
1: Entropic Shield
2: Enthrall
2: Eagle's Splendor
2: Aid
Note: I am 1000 xp into level 3 and can thus pay for xp costs
Would you consider this guy overpowered? As a guy sitting in a tower (not an adventurer). I know that I wouldn't.
NPC BBEG? or at level would it be BLT?
CR 3 monsters. This is probably too weak.
blink dog -> locust swarm
dire badger -> dire ape
choker -> phantom fungus
medium rug -> large rug
wyrmling white dragon -> very young white dragon
CR 4 monsters. This is what I think is an appropriate challenge.
blink dog -> griffon
dire badger -> brown bear
choker -> gray ooze
medium rug -> mimic
wyrmling white dragon -> young white dragon
CR 5 monsters. This should be a terrible day for any CR 5 character.
blink dog -> manticore
dire badger -> giant constrictor snake
choker -> wraith
medium rug -> huge rug
wyrmling white dragon -> young black dragon
Nope. Run-of-the-mill, I was designing him more for PvP than anything else.
Here, though. Here's my Ascension #3 (Since I disproved your fears about it's legality). Just ignore this if you have issues with it, I don't really care.The Character
Venerable Human Cleric 3
Str 5 Dex 4 Con 6 Wis 20 Cha 19 Cha 11
AC=10-3(dex)+2(armor)+1(shield)=10
Domains: Undeath, Luck
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (level 1)
Domain Spontaniety (Luck) (Human bonus)
Divine Metamagic (Sanctum Spell) (level 3)
Equipment:
2 Nightsticks
Buckler
Leather Armor
Item of Cha +2
Item of Wis +2
Scroll of Magic Circle against Chaos
hp=11 (assuming average hp rolls and max at 1st level)
Typical Spells Memorized:
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
1: Bless
1: Light
1: Bless
1: Entropic Shield
2: Enthrall
2: Eagle's Splendor
2: Aid
Note: I am 1000 xp into level 3 and can thus pay for xp costs
I think what we have proved is that the CR system is very wrong about what constitutes a challenge for a single level five character. For the sake of completeness, here are a few more possibilities.
CR 3 monsters. This is probably too weak.
blink dog -> locust swarm
dire badger -> dire ape
choker -> phantom fungus
medium rug -> large rug
wyrmling white dragon -> very young white dragon
Replacing a monster with 50% concealment with one immune to weapon damage. Hmm ... ok
Dire upgrade -- ok.
Choker (anti caster) --> greater invisibility (anti melee) possibly anti-caster (unsure)
Rug upgrade -- ok
Dragon upgrade -- ok.
CR 4 monsters. This is what I think is an appropriate challenge.
blink dog -> griffon
dire badger -> brown bear
choker -> gray ooze
medium rug -> mimic
wyrmling white dragon -> young white dragon
Blink dog --> Griffin -- ok.
Dire Badger --> Bear -- ok.
Choker (anti caster) --> ooze (anti melee) -- come on now, replacing a "Cannot cast spells" with "Eats your weapon"? I call shenanigans.
Medium Rug --> mimic -- ok
Dragon upgrade --> ok.
CR 5 monsters. This should be a terrible day for any CR 5 character.
blink dog -> manticore
dire badger -> giant constrictor snake
choker -> wraith
medium rug -> huge rug
wyrmling white dragon -> young black dragon
Blink Dog --> manticore -- ok
Dire badger - ok
Choker (anti caster) --> Wraith (unsure if this favors casters or not, magic missile auto-hits, melee 50% miss). Best case -- its a toss-up.
Rug upgrade -- ok
Dragon Upgrade -- ok -- however, since the color of the dragon is changing, it is only fair to tell people the creature's new color (won't help me, as my equipment is unchanging) but it might help prepared spellcasters.
Just for the record, I do not plan on running my character through a CR3/4 type encounter with autohitting/max/critting rolls for the opponent.
Before I do another run through, does anyone have objections to the way I ran the encounter? If not, then the next time I go through this, I will use weighted averages.
Is there a caster whose build was posted and validated willing to go through this same encounter?
If somebody feels these are bad choices, they should put up their own list. I started putting up encounter lists because I felt that this thread needed to get moving.
NPC BBEG? or at level would it be BLT?
I thought the BLT was a high level Psion.
I thought the BLT was a high level Psion.
Bad Little Tyrant
or
Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwick. A joke was made about the psion because of Mind Switch.
Sorry for the apparently off-topic question, but is there a spell or item that allows you to cast a touch spell from a safe distance? The Reach Spell feat seems good, but I'm working in a build(which is what the OP asked IIRC) that doesn't have space for it.
Yes, it's off topic.
:P If you don't have the need to use it with mid-high level spells and have the extra money, try a +1 Spell Storing Proficiency Whip. :D
Sorry for the apparently off-topic question, but is there a spell or item that allows you to cast a touch spell from a safe distance? The Reach Spell feat seems good, but I'm working in a build(which is what the OP asked IIRC) that doesn't have space for it.
Spectral Hand. (Note that you didn't specify what spell list you were talking about.)
The Character
Venerable Human Cleric 3
Str 5 Dex 4 Con 6 Wis 20 Cha 19 Cha 11
AC=10-3(dex)+2(armor)+1(shield)=10
Domains: Undeath, Luck
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (level 1)
Domain Spontaniety (Luck) (Human bonus)
Divine Metamagic (Sanctum Spell) (level 3)
Equipment:
2 Nightsticks
Buckler
Leather Armor
Item of Cha +2
Item of Wis +2
Scroll of Magic Circle against Chaos
hp=11 (assuming average hp rolls and max at 1st level)
Typical Spells Memorized:
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
1: Bless
1: Light
1: Bless
1: Entropic Shield
2: Enthrall
2: Eagle's Splendor
2: Aid
Note: I am 1000 xp into level 3 and can thus pay for xp costs
Nope. Run-of-the-mill, I was designing him more for PvP than anything else.
Here, though. Here's my Ascension #3 (Since I disproved your fears about it's legality). Just ignore this if you have issues with it, I don't really care.The Character
Venerable Human Cleric 3
Str 5 Dex 4 Con 6 Wis 20 Cha 19 Cha 11
AC=10-3(dex)+2(armor)+1(shield)=10
Domains: Undeath, Luck
Feats:
Sanctum Spell (level 1)
Domain Spontaniety (Luck) (Human bonus)
Divine Metamagic (Sanctum Spell) (level 3)
Equipment:
2 Nightsticks
Buckler
Leather Armor
Item of Cha +2
Item of Wis +2
Scroll of Magic Circle against Chaos
hp=11 (assuming average hp rolls and max at 1st level)
Typical Spells Memorized:
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
0: Create Water
1: Bless
1: Light
1: Bless
1: Entropic Shield
2: Enthrall
2: Eagle's Splendor
2: Aid
Note: I am 1000 xp into level 3 and can thus pay for xp costs
Encounter 1: This is happening at night, cause I can ...
Encounter 1:
Locust Swarm:
Show
AC 18 (3 dex, 3 nat)
Damage 2d6
Immunity to weapons.
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 4 higher, hopefully enough for the win
I walk over to it, activating rapid wolf strike, burning blade, (+4+5+1+4 vs ac 14, 95%) dealing (1d6+3) 6.5 damage. I am considering the punishing stance adds onto the weapon damage (which is ignored) instead of the fire damage (which is the only damage I do).
It engulfs me, dealing 7 damage (2d6 average = 7). This activates my Fire Riposte manuever (+4+5 vs ac 18, 60, 155), dealing (4d6+1d6 = 14+3.5) 17.5, which kills it.
End of Round 1: Me: 22 hps, It: dead.
I will wait to heal up until after next battle.
Damage 2d6
Immunity to weapons.
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 4 higher, hopefully enough for the win
I walk over to it, activating rapid wolf strike, burning blade, (+4+5+1+4 vs ac 14, 95%) dealing (1d6+3) 6.5 damage. I am considering the punishing stance adds onto the weapon damage (which is ignored) instead of the fire damage (which is the only damage I do).
It engulfs me, dealing 7 damage (2d6 average = 7). This activates my Fire Riposte manuever (+4+5 vs ac 18, 60, 155), dealing (4d6+1d6 = 14+3.5) 17.5, which kills it.
End of Round 1: Me: 22 hps, It: dead.
I will wait to heal up until after next battle.
Edit: I see Meyer's got two flaws, I'll follow the lead and use flaws. So here's my necromancer-cleric. He'll have murky eyes and be shaky (very appropriate, in my opinion).
Samosa, lvl 5 human cleric. Domains: Death, Undeath.
Elite array:
10 HP:8+(4x4.5)+10=36
12 Fort:4+2=6
14 Ref :1+1=2
8 Will:4+3=7
16(+1lvl4)
13
AC-10+9(+1fullplate)+3(+1h.s.shields), +1(dex), +1(ring of protection)=24
Bab-+3. Att: +4 1d8+0x2.
(Samosa does not normally carry his morningstar, generally using inflict spells.
It will be noted if he draws it)
Feats: Corpsecrafter, necromantic presence, necromantic might, Empower Spell, Divine Metamagic (empower spell). Extra turning(undeath domain)
Gear: +1 Fullplate(2650), Ring protection +1(2000), +1 Heavy Steel Shield (1170), 2xeternal wand of cure light wounds (1650), Black Onyx (for animating dead, 900g), Masterwork Morningstar (315), scroll of Neutralize Poison (375)
That should be just under starting wealth, counting for standard adventurer's kit.
Spells:
0lvl-detect magicx2, read magicx1, lightx2
1st-divine favorx2, doomx2. Domain: cause fear
2nd-Aidx2, resist energy. Domain: Desecrate
3rd-Blindness/deafnessx2. Domain: Animate Dead
Samosa has his eye on a bright shiny new periapt of wisdom and heard a weakling dragon is sitting on a pile of his eventual treasure. Time to make some skeletons and get rich.
1st encounter: Blink dog. hp:22
That blink dog is going to get the first attack with it's free dimension door.
However, it attacks at +4. Only a natural 20 can hit samosa. That makes the blink dog's average damage considerably less than 1/round. High AC wins this fight. Samosa, however, doesn't know that, and his murkey eyes make the blink dog hard to see. He empowers an inflict moderate wounds spell (no miss chance for ethereal creatures with negative energy). Touching is tricky, as samosa only rolls his touch attack at +3. 50/50 chance of touching him. When he eventually does, he hits for 2d8x150%+5, average 19. He'll have to follow up with an inflict light wounds. Through all that, the blink dog might tag him once, we'll assume average damage, or 4 hp.
1st encounter: -4hp, aid converted to inflict moderate, divine favor converted to inflict light. One of six wand charges used to cure up to full.
So far so good, samosa. Could animate that dog now, but his master always taught him to get the most bang for his buck when animating. He'll wait, just leave that dog there for later.
Seeing the cave opening, Samosa casts Aid, lasting five minutes. By level five, he knows what a cave means. Aid! 9temporary hp, +1 to attacks and saves vs. fear. Good thing he did too, because a dire badger is right around the corner and begins to maul him.
The Badger has scent, so it's no good trying to blind him (I hear a half-orc slipped by him in the dark, but I doubt the veracity of that report). Luckily the Dire Badger, if not raging, also needs a natural 20 to hit, although with three attacks that's not so unlikely. He'll get a full round attack and do an average of about .3 damage a round. Samosa doesn't like it, turns his useless blindness into an inflict serious wounds (divine empowered). His concentration isn't high enough to be certain of doing it in combat, so the badger gets another round of attacks before he can land it, and with a 13 touch AC, perhaps another round. We can assume a hit, but since Samosa will not be trying to stretch his temporary hitpoints into another encounter, we'll just consider them gone (perhaps the badger got lucky and hit twice).
That inflict won't quite kill the Badger, who will rage and actually hit on rolls of 18 for the claws. We'll assume one more hit before Samosa can finish him off with an inflict light wounds. Average rage damage with a claw, 7. Another dose of the eternal wand of cure light is in order, for perhaps
Max-2 hp. Now Samosa will drag the badger back to the dog and get to work. He can desecrate the area (no shrine, and he doesn't believe in setting up portable death shrines. When he makes a shrine, it's big and evil.) 7hd of monsters will cost him 175 worth of black onyx. With corpsecrafting and necromantic might, the skeletons he makes will have an extra 3hp/hd, +4 str, and an untyped +2 bonus to attack and damage. That means:
Dire skeleton of a badger: HP 29. AC 16 Att: Claw +5 1d4+3x2, Bite +0 1d6+0
Dire Skeleton of a dog: HP 38. AC 16 Att: Bite +4 1d6+2.
Not a bad haul. He heads back into the cave. Spells now as follows:
0lvl-all in tact.
1st-divine favorx0. Doomx2 Cause fearx1
2nd-Aidx1. Resist energyx1. Desecratex0
3rd-Blindnessx1. Animate deadx0
Stepping into the cave again, Samosa has his undead go in front to spring any traps that may be there. They are, naturally, ordered to attack anything that threatens their master (approaches with weapon, injures, attempts to attack, or is pointed at while Samosa frowns.) Happily, there aren't any. Unhappily, a choker isn't going to try to eat a skeleton, it goes right for Samosa. The Samosa needs an 18 or better to hit, Samosa's investment in protective items is still paying off. Assuming bad luck, it will immediately begin to grapple him, dealing just about 9 damage (so long temporary hitpoints). With low hitpoints, Samosa's two skeletons can take it down, but the 17 armor class might take a few rounds to surpass. Assuming two full rounds, Samosa will take another 5 damage in the grapple (he's not much at scrapping like that). His first eternal wand is depleted for the day after healing up. Both skeletons are untouched.
After encounter 3: Full hp for Samosa and skeletons. Most of his spells remain, but no more aids. He'll have to do without.
Moving onward, an animated rug will begin to grapple his doesn't-blink-anymore dog! Since the rug deals bludgeoning damage with it's slam and constrict attack, the skeleton's damage reduction is of no use. Samosa draws his mace (recognizing that you can't hurt a rug with negative energy, he's very wise after all). He flanks the rug with his Dire Badger and they begin to dig in. The rug doesn't grapple all that well, but we'll assume it keeps hold and deals damage 2 out of the 3 rounds it will likely take Samosa and his badger to tear it apart. Samosa will have to spend a doom to inflict light wounds on his dog, on average healing the two rounds of 1d6+1 his dog took. It might be a few hp short of full, Samosa isn't worried about it.
He goes on to find his quarry, a wyrmling white dragon. Fortunately for Samosa, his undead really shine against it. It will have difficulty overcoming their damage reduction with it's claw attacks, and only has an AC of 14. Samosa will cast his resist energy to negate the cold breath weapon (his skeletons are immune). He will then let his skeletons do the work while he attempts to cast Doom to further cripple the wyrmling. It is unlikely that the dragon will deal any damage at all, but Samosa has a few inflicts left to heal his skeletons if needed, and three more charges of cure light on his second wand for himself.
Final resources expended, 175gp of black onyx. Resources Gained, 175 gp worth of undead. I call that a break even. Samosa was never in serious danger. He, in my opinion, outperformed the half orc easily, and has two undead to bring to action on his next adventure.
Happy to discuss any mistakes I might have made, or any questionable rulings.
Agree with disputes related to level three wealth. Nightsticks are what, 50g? Something stupid cheap.
According to Libris Mortis they're 7.500gp, it's on page 78. Unless they're printed on a more recent book I belive that's the correct price, unless the character can miraculously obtain them for free(since a 3rd level probably wouldn't be ble to craft it, as it requires caster level 10).
Also, thanks for Spectral Hand.
As a note, I was looking into the Dragon Magic (where the Draconic Aura feat is offered), and on page 87 (where the auras referenced are), Vigor is conspicuously absent. Strange, as everything else the Dragon Shaman gets is there. Still, if it's not a valid Draconic Aura as gotten through the feat, then it's not. Errata?
Several of the Dragon Shaman's auras aren't listed there, including Power and Energy Shield among others. I guess it's assumed that you can get a Dragon Shaman aura or one of the listed auras in Dragon Magic from the feat.
As a balance issue, I can see free fast healing1 up to half as being a lot more powerful than the others. Has this been debated elsewhere? I'm not finding much.
Since it specifically mentions Dragon shamans as the best at using auras, I doubt it's an oversight. Could be. This is probably best handled with the "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't" rule. The book references page 86 with it's ten or so auras, and vigor isn't one.
As a balance issue, I can see free fast healing1 up to half as being a lot more powerful than the others. Has this been debated elsewhere? I'm not finding much.
Dragon Magic
Draconic Aura: page 16.
When you select this feat, choose a draconic aura (see Page 86).
Gaining Auras: Page 86
For most characters, a draconic aura is learned by selecting the Draconic Aura feat. This feat grants a character access to a single aura with a bonus of +1.
PHB2
Draconic Aura: Page 13
(list of auras)
I fail to see how you think the character cannot choose any aura listed? WOTC printed some existing ones there for people who might not have PHB2. If dragon shamans can choose either draconic aura, and the feat grants access to a draconic aura. This works.
Additionally, I found an error with my character. I should have more hps.
Rogue 6+ barbarian 6.5 + fighter 5.5 + Rogue 3.5 + warblade 6.5 + con 5 = 33, not 29. I won't go back through the old fights and redo it ... but I will make the change.
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. Here's my relatively realistic shot at this (no goofy game-breaking combos, nothing my DM wouldn't let in, nothing I wouldn't let my players do)
Gear: +1 Fullplate(2650), Ring protection +1(2000), +1 Heavy Steel Shield (1170), 2xeternal wand of cure light wounds (1650), Black Onyx (for animating dead, 900g), Masterwork Morningstar (315), scroll of Neutralize Poison (375)
How do you plan on using your eternal wands of cure light wounds? They require the ability to cast arcane spells to be used. Regardless, they have 2 charges each, not three. Buy a normal wand of faith healing instead. It is cheaper and more useful for you.
Also, you might want to buy material components (vial of unholy water, 25gp of silver dust) for the casting of desecrate.
Final resources expended, 175gp of black onyx. Resources Gained, 175 gp worth of undead. I call that a break even. Samosa was never in serious danger. He, in my opinion, outperformed the half orc easily, and has two undead to bring to action on his next adventure.
Um,
Before encounter
Spells:
0lvl-detect magicx2, read magicx1, lightx2
1st-divine favorx2, doomx2. Domain: cause fear
2nd-Aidx2, Resist Energy. Domain: Desecrate
3rd-Blindness/deafnessx2. Domain: Animate Dead
After encounter
0lvl-all in tact.
1st-Doomx1 Cause fearx1
2nd-Aidx1.
3rd-Blindnessx1
Looks like you used the following resources:
Spells: 3 first, 3 second, 2 third.
Three charges from a 2 charge item that you cannot use.
175 gp of onyx (yes, you did gain 175gp worth of undead).
25 gp of silver dust
1 vial of unholy water.
Lets compare to the ORC (not 1/2 orc).
Playing conservatively (i.e. healing after each encounter). I used
3 charges from my belt, and 1 potion of faith healing.
Had I played recklessly, I would have used 0 resources, which would let me do this all day long.
How do you consider the cleric outperforming the orc? What criteria did you use?
Time: We took about the same amount of time
HPs Left: We are both about the same
Resources remaining: I have quite a bit more left
Some comments:
Additionally, it says under Animate Dead that the undead follow your spoken commands. What type of action is this, Free? Move? Standard?
What is your light source? The encounter did not specify any, and since most everything in the mini-adventure has darkvision, light sources in the cave seems wrong.
How did you identify the rug as being immune to negative energy? Did you make the knowledge check?
How does negative energy effect Ethereal creatures without a miss chance? What I read is
Blink
Show
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random.
Blinking has several effects, as follows.
Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn’t help opponents, since you’re ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures. Your own spells have a 20% chance to activate just as you go ethereal, in which case they typically do not affect the Material Plane.
While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.
You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.
While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)
Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.
An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can’t attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material.
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random.
Blinking has several effects, as follows.
Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn’t help opponents, since you’re ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures. Your own spells have a 20% chance to activate just as you go ethereal, in which case they typically do not affect the Material Plane.
While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.
You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.
While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)
Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.
An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can’t attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material.
Encounter 1:Griffon
Show
This is happening at night, cause I can ...
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 6 higher, hopefully enough for the win
I assume it is in the air. I see it, and ready an action to rabid wolf strike it when it enters my threatened area.
It dives me, my readied action goes off.
I attack it (+4+5+1+4 vs ac 17, 90%) for (2d4+1d6+2d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+7+1+7) 23.5 damage
It continues its attack on me, not that it has much choice. This provokes as it moves through my 10' reach.
I attack it (+4+5+1 vs ac 17, 70%, 160) for 16.5 damage (rabid strike no longer applies)
It (+11 vs ac 8, 95%) hits me with a bite for 11 damage, triggering Fire Riposte (+4+5 vs ac 11, 95%, 255), dealing 17.5 damage.
It continues it's full attack ... as, why not. I take another 4.5 (claw), 4.5 (claw), 5.5 (rake), 5.5 (rake) damage.
End of Round 1: Me: 2, It: 1.5
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp, attack it (70, 230) then activate my bracers of quick strike (70,300), hitting and killing it.
End of round 2: Me: 3, It dead.
I wait 14 rounds then use a charge from my belt. My hps are 26.
Resources used: 1 Charge from belt, 1 charge from bracers.
I am in my Punishing Stance
Round 1: My init is 6 higher, hopefully enough for the win
I assume it is in the air. I see it, and ready an action to rabid wolf strike it when it enters my threatened area.
It dives me, my readied action goes off.
I attack it (+4+5+1+4 vs ac 17, 90%) for (2d4+1d6+2d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+7+1+7) 23.5 damage
It continues its attack on me, not that it has much choice. This provokes as it moves through my 10' reach.
I attack it (+4+5+1 vs ac 17, 70%, 160) for 16.5 damage (rabid strike no longer applies)
It (+11 vs ac 8, 95%) hits me with a bite for 11 damage, triggering Fire Riposte (+4+5 vs ac 11, 95%, 255), dealing 17.5 damage.
It continues it's full attack ... as, why not. I take another 4.5 (claw), 4.5 (claw), 5.5 (rake), 5.5 (rake) damage.
End of Round 1: Me: 2, It: 1.5
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp, attack it (70, 230) then activate my bracers of quick strike (70,300), hitting and killing it.
End of round 2: Me: 3, It dead.
I wait 14 rounds then use a charge from my belt. My hps are 26.
Resources used: 1 Charge from belt, 1 charge from bracers.
According to Libris Mortis they're 7.500gp, it's on page 78. Unless they're printed on a more recent book I belive that's the correct price, unless the character can miraculously obtain them for free(since a 3rd level probably wouldn't be ble to craft it, as it requires caster level 10).
Also, thanks for Spectral Hand.
Ahh. I've never had LM, so I was just guessing. People refer to them as cheap and I thought they were one-time disposables.
I believe A_V used his other Aid spell before re-entering, as he mentioned losing the temp hp again.
Note that Meyer did not slip by the badger, or other scent-using animals, but rather was taking advantage of not needing light sources. Even granting them first strike, he had enough healing still available at the end to cover such changes.
I still think that anything prone to grappling is at a disadvantage against Meyer due to STR, Close-Quarters Fighting, and Fire Riposite. None of the encounters have included multiple opponents, traps, or utility/battlefield control spells. Not that I think Meyer will be easily subdued by said tactics, but rather that I think the encounters have been very similar to each other. The more versitility is required, the more we can "test" the theory that casters are overpowered since they can be ready for everything.
I also propose bumping the comparisons to level 7-9, to start testing the breaking point for caster supremacy. Most players agree that casters are generally less powerful than nons for the first 4-5 levels anyways, so Meyer is at a disadvantage to rub their noses in the filthy lies.
Man, I wish I was better with casters, as this seems like a really fun challenge to me. Especially since it should be so incredibly easy, as casters are infinitely more powerful than non-casters. I think that magic is by definition more powerful, but that due to the investment needed to reach said power levels it is a trade off and balanced. At least, supposing that level 10 is the break point when casters begin to overtake non-casters.
Obviously I don't count spells as a resource used, as they're free to pray for again the next day. As the day is officially over after the white dragon, there's no reason to count them. They're free.
Material components, divine focus. Obviously required, which is part of why I never fully spend the amount of gold for a character of x level. It fits well within the couple hundred I had left over. Fair to point out, but it doesn't make a difference in the outcome.
Now, in regard to auras, I'm not sure. Since Dragon Magic specifically lists auras available, and some of them mirror the PHII dragon shaman auras, it certainly isn't just a supplementary list. Since the feat mentions nowhere that the player may draw from the PHII auras, but rather specifically references the printed auras that DON'T include vigor, taking it looks like a house-rule to me. Since your build seems to rely on that healing quite a bit, I'd have to count it as important.
Good catch on the eternal wands, never noticed they can't be divine. Probably house-rule that in the home game, but that's another story. Since I had some spells left over, and was never low on hit points, the cures I'd lose aren't that relevant, but for the sake of argument I don't mind assuming that the cleric finished his day at half HP.
Bard can make and use an eternal wand of cure light wounds. The reason why it is arcane only is the flavor/backstory from eberron, where they originally came from.
Obviously I don't count spells as a resource used, as they're free to pray for again the next day. As the day is officially over after the white dragon, there's no reason to count them. They're free.
The day might, or might not be over. Some DMs use wandering monsters while the party sleeps. Regardless, the spells are resources used, even if you get them back at the end of the day.
Material components, divine focus. Obviously required, which is part of why I never fully spend the amount of gold for a character of x level. It fits well within the couple hundred I had left over. Fair to point out, but it doesn't make a difference in the outcome.
It is very safe to assume a caster has a spell pouch/divine focus even if they do not list them, but costly spell components need to be listed. I agree that you have enough gold for them, but depending on when you can get back to town for more of them, it might be a problem later on.
Now, in regard to auras, I'm not sure. Since Dragon Magic specifically lists auras available, and some of them mirror the PHII dragon shaman auras, it certainly isn't just a supplementary list. Since the feat mentions nowhere that the player may draw from the PHII auras, but rather specifically references the printed auras that DON'T include vigor, taking it looks like a house-rule to me. Since your build seems to rely on that healing quite a bit, I'd have to count it as important.
I would have to disagree. This would be like saying that spellcasters can only choose to learn spells from spell compendium (and PHB), as it lists spells that are in other splat books, but does not list them all.
Lastly, page 86, first paragraph, second sentence
Dragon Shamans (see Player's Handbook II) are the greatest wielders of draconic auras, but other characters can also learn to harness this power
It does not say that other characters can only learn a subset of the ones available. Separating draconic auras into two piles, based on which book they are from would be the house rule.
Btw, in case anyone missed it. This healing heals the entire party. In short, this noncaster is the secondary healer of the party.
I believe A_V used his other Aid spell before re-entering, as he mentioned losing the temp hp again.
I am unsure if he used 1 or 2 aid spells, the point remains that it was most of his resources.
Note that Meyer did not slip by the badger, or other scent-using animals, but rather was taking advantage of not needing light sources. Even granting them first strike, he had enough healing still available at the end to cover such changes.
Thank you. With a +5 init bonus on the badger, I would not grant it first strike vs me, but not that I did grant it the ability to find me (which is more powerful than how scent works).
I tried to error on the side of hosing me over, as the more I do that, the less opportunities there exist to state that I am misplaying anything.
I still think that anything prone to grappling is at a disadvantage against Meyer due to STR, Close-Quarters Fighting, and Fire Riposite. None of the encounters have included multiple opponents, traps, or utility/battlefield control spells. Not that I think Meyer will be easily subdued by said tactics, but rather that I think the encounters have been very similar to each other. The more versitility is required, the more we can "test" the theory that casters are overpowered since they can be ready for everything.
Remember, I did not select any of the monsters. Someone else did.
I am looking forward to seeing more spell casters go through this same mini-adventure.
At low levels, my opinion is that spellcasters are not as powerful as non-casters. They do not have the gold (spells/scrolls/wands) to be as versatile as they could be. This is part of the point of this thread. Looking for overpowered spellcasters at low levels.
There are only so many spell slots available. The more encounters that are similar, the more you better hope that your spells were chosen in the correct ratio. The more encounters that are different, the higher the chance that you have them in the correct ratio.
I also propose bumping the comparisons to level 7-9, to start testing the breaking point for caster supremacy. Most players agree that casters are generally less powerful than nons for the first 4-5 levels anyways, so Meyer is at a disadvantage to rub their noses in the filthy lies.
From what I have read in numerous threads, casters are considered by most people on the boards to beat noncasters at most levels. It isn't until people start reading these threads that the perception of caster overpoweredness is addressed.
Regardless, I think that until more casters go through this mini-adventure, we should put off raising the level.
Man, I wish I was better with casters, as this seems like a really fun challenge to me. Especially since it should be so incredibly easy, as casters are infinitely more powerful than non-casters. I think that magic is by definition more powerful, but that due to the investment needed to reach said power levels it is a trade off and balanced. At least, supposing that level 10 is the break point when casters begin to overtake non-casters.
This is similar to my point of view, only I think that once casters catch up, they are balanced vs noncasters until higher than level 10.
I fail to see how you think the character cannot choose any aura listed? WOTC printed some existing ones there for people who might not have PHB2. If dragon shamans can choose either draconic aura, and the feat grants access to a draconic aura. This works.
Well, I can see way he thinks that, but I don't agree. I my view the use of the Vigor Aura is within the Rules As Written, but a little cheesy at low levels.
At higher levels this will likely not keep up with the damage. You might try a Frostblood orc to get the bonus up at higher levels, though it might not help enough. Just beware of fire if you do.
I would have to disagree. This would be like saying that spellcasters can only choose to learn spells from spell compendium (and PHB), as it lists spells that are in other splat books, but does not list them all.
Lastly, page 86, first paragraph, second sentence
It does not say that other characters can only learn a subset of the ones available. Separating draconic auras into two piles, based on which book they are from would be the house rule.
I wouldn't mind getting a consensus opinion on this. My understanding is that a feat has to say "the player may select x" if "x" is meant to be available. Anything else is house-ruling. This is the right place for the rules lawyers to make a definitive statement on it. Keep in mind that "it doesn't say I can't, therefore I can" is a classic fallacy of D&D. Things have to be specifically stated to be allowed.
I wouldn't mind getting a consensus opinion on this. My understanding is that a feat has to say "the player may select x" if "x" is meant to be available. Anything else is house-ruling. This is the right place for the rules lawyers to make a definitive statement on it. Keep in mind that "it doesn't say I can't, therefore I can" is a classic fallacy of D&D. Things have to be specifically stated to be allowed.
It says "draconic aura" and vigor qualifies as a draconic aura. As nothing contradicts this, so it should be allowed.
Well, I can see way he thinks that, but I don't agree. I my view the use of the Vigor Aura is within the Rules As Written, but a little cheesy at low levels.
At higher levels this will likely not keep up with the damage. You might try a Frostblood orc to get the bonus up at higher levels, though it might not help enough. Just beware of fire if you do.
I thought about this, but didn't want to take frostblood orc, when the mini-adventure culminated with a white dragon (avoiding the cheese).
Honestly though, it doesn't matter how much time it takes me to heal after the fight. When we have time (i.e. looting the bodies, searching for traps), it is free healing. When we don't have time, the cleric (main healer) does his normal spellcasting. During a fight, the 1 hp/round almost never makes a difference (except with auto-stabilization or if someone was at 0 (or -1)).
Any responses to my other comments about your build/mini-adventure?
Like
Light source is important as you are using a heavy metal shield. And a Lantern (or something) ... which means you have no hands free to cast spells.
The other questions are more nit-picky, as I don't think that it will change much. However, the question about the eternal wands, if you straight up change from using a charge from the eternal wand to a normal wand, then your character used an additional 75gp of resources. This is more than the cautious orc used.
Axiomatic_vampire:
Any responses to my other comments about your build/mini-adventure?
Like
Light source is important as you are using a heavy metal shield. And a Lantern (or something) ... which means you have no hands free to cast spells.
The other questions are more nit-picky, as I don't think that it will change much. However, the question about the eternal wands, if you straight up change from using a charge from the eternal wand to a normal wand, then your character used an additional 75gp of resources. This is more than the cautious orc used.
Light (0lvl spell) was memorized. No problems with light sources. As for cure spells, no wand. Doing it over, I'd take a few cure spells. Without doing it over, 27 hp of damage was done and not cured, leaving Samosa at 9 hp. He'll heal them tomorrow. Can't accept your argument of possible random encounters as it was clearly stated to be a one-and-done. Those are the challenges, no more, no less.
Seriously, at level 5 light is there always (as long nobody casts deeper darkness).
I thought about this, but didn't want to take frostblood orc, when the mini-adventure culminated with a white dragon (avoiding the cheese).
I was thinking of the character at higher levels. If you don't mind rules variants try the draconic template an reduce the level reduction.
Honestly though, it doesn't matter how much time it takes me to heal after the fight. When we have time (i.e. looting the bodies, searching for traps), it is free healing. When we don't have time, the cleric (main healer) does his normal spellcasting. During a fight, the 1 hp/round almost never makes a difference (except with auto-stabilization or if someone was at 0 (or -1)).
I was thinking of in battle at higher levels. That 1 adds up really fast between combats.
Also with your hit points being low all the time the berserker strength variant from the Player's Handbook II could work better than rage.
Also I'm wondering how he would survive long enough to get to 3rd (when he qualifies for the Draconic Aura feat) without help.
Light (0lvl spell) was memorized. No problems with light sources. As for cure spells, no wand. Doing it over, I'd take a few cure spells. Without doing it over, 27 hp of damage was done and not cured, leaving Samosa at 9 hp. He'll heal them tomorrow. Can't accept your argument of possible random encounters as it was clearly stated to be a one-and-done. Those are the challenges, no more, no less.
All these sound valid ... care to follow the orc into the cr 3 cave?
An everburning torch is 110 gold. You can have Continual Flame (sor/wiz 2, cleric 3 spell) cast on your helmet/pointy hat for a pittance.
Seriously, at level 5 light is there always (as long nobody casts deeper darkness).
But this assumes that you take it into account ...
I was thinking of the character at higher levels. If you don't mind rules variants try the draconic template an reduce the level reduction.
? I don't follow. What do you mean by "reduce the level reduction"? Is this what is known as Buying off LA? If so, how is it done, and is it a normal char opt tactic?
I was thinking of in battle at higher levels. That 1 adds up really fast between combats.
Also with your hit points being low all the time the berserker strength variant from the Player's Handbook II could work better than rage.
Also I'm wondering how he would survive long enough to get to 3rd (when he qualifies for the Draconic Aura feat) without help.
The healing this character provides is just a bonus, on top of what the healer of the party brings to the table. As far as speed is concerned, this is slightly faster than any party who uses wands of lesser vigor to heal up. (slightly faster as there is no need to spend rounds getting it active)
My hps aren't really all that low, I am 2 hps less than the cleric. Thats not that bad. I am looking forward to con boosting things though.
The rage variant from PHB2 won't work, as it specifies barbarian levels.
Remember, this character is meant to be part of a party. He survives the same way that any fighter survives. The cleric heals him as needed.
? I don't follow. What do you mean by "reduce the level reduction"? Is this what is known as Buying off LA? If so, how is it done, and is it a normal char opt tactic?
Yes LA buyoff. Whether it is nomrmal or not, it is possible and potenially powerful.
The rage variant from PHB2 won't work, as it specifies barbarian levels.
I must have misremembered the character.
Remember, this character is meant to be part of a party. He survives the same way that any fighter survives. The cleric heals him as needed.
Interesting.
ShowLevel 5 Melee:
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 29
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 2 +1 = 3
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Class Features
Evasion
Slashing Rage 1/day
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cload (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3 = 4
Ref 3+2-1=4
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1+1=+11
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder
While I've had a lot of fun reading this topic, you seem to have made one critical mistake in your build.
Your Desert Wind maneuver doesn't work:
Now your build has used this a lot, sometimes as it's only weapon. But you're gonna have to find way to get another Desert Wind maneuver if you want to keep it.
-Felirc-
Thanks ... Looks like I will trade my weapon focus for martial study (burning blade)
Here is a level 4 wizard that might be a possible lead-in for that Swiftblade "gish" (maybe not, I don't remember the feat prereqs):
dragonborn fire elf wizard 4 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 19.5 (+1d10+4)
AC 28 (10+4armor+10nat+1dex+2shield+1defl)
Attacks: 2 claws +4 (1d6+2) or +1 guisarme +5 (2d4+3)
Feats: Otherworldly, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still
Equipment: +1 mithril buckler, +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme
Spells prepared:
1st: True Strike x3, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Alter Self x3, False Life
Otherworldly makes him a full outsider. As an outsider, he is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. So we'll use a guisarme.
Alter Self into an abyssal eviscerator for +10 natural armor, and 2 claw attacks (next level you can use a Dwarf Ancestor for +18 natural armor and large size). Cast True Strike, and disarm the biggest, nastiest enemy. You're almost guaranteed to succeed due to an attack bonus of +24, and a two-handed weapon. You have reach, Stand Still, and a high armor class, so melee isn't much of a threat. You also have extra hit points from False Life just in case you do get hit.
Of course, if he doesn't feel like being in melee, he could prepare some Color Sprays, Webs, etc. He can also use Alter Self as a utility spell for flight, racial bonus feats, skill boosts, etc.
Care to level this guy up one level, then take him through the mini-adventure, so we can see if it is overpowered?
Some things to watch out for, that ooze is really evil, the wraith is even worse. Remember, you do not know the monsters in the cave, other than the color of the dragon.
All these sound valid ... care to follow the orc into the cr 3 cave?
What would the point of that be? We ran it, the cleric did slightly better. Unless you want to shift your argument to "below level 7, the Book of Nine Swords is not underpowered compared to casters", you've got to expand your focus. Honestly, no one really says that ToB isn't strong. It's the one bright thing non-casters have. Saying non-casters are just fine, then using a warblade to make your point is using the exception to prove the rule. It doesn't prove anything other than that the exception exists, which I don't believe anyone is denying.
When I saw that, I sort of groaned, but whatever. Go through with it. Now that it's over, you want to keep pounding on your warblade?
Meyer, be honest here. What are you trying to demonstrate? That dark-vision is good? That martial maneuvers are good? That bonus feats from flaws are good? You've got more feats than character levels, dip into three classes, and a straight cleric still came out on top (judging by resources used.)
Did you lose a bet or something? The forfeit was to come to Char-Ops and try to convince life-time gamers and math-gurus that they've been wrong about casters all this time? Are you trolling? Do you really thing "prove me wrong or else I'm right." is a good way to "debunk the myth of overpowered casters"?
Anyway, here it is. From me to you:
casters are not overpowered compared to the Tome of Blood, before level 7.
Did you lose a bet or something? The forfeit was to come to Char-Ops and try to convince life-time gamers and math-gurus that they've been wrong about casters all this time?
Not everyone here is a life-time gamer or a math-guru. Further, simply because someone doesn't frequent here does not mean that person is not a life-time gamer or math-guru.
And finally, even if someone were, it doesn't grant them immunity to being wrong.
Let's not be silly.
Do you really thing "prove me wrong or else I'm right." is a good way to "debunk the myth of overpowered casters"?
Well, how is everyone defining 'overpowered' in this discussion? I don't think having a cleric do 'slightly better' by using less resources demonstrates that casters are overpowered.
JaronK
Point blank and bottom line: With a decent DM nothing is broken (save pun pun) becuase there are enough sources and material out to facilitate an encounter thats both challenging and the appropriate CR for any party at any level. So asking for a static build with a set spell list that can deal with anything and must stand up to every source printed is a horrible test to see if a caster is broken or not becuase again, we will be left with nothing but pun pun on both sides.
You want a truely broken ability from both designe and player prospectives: artificer's retain essence ability. No caps on what it can drain and can be incrediably effective in game. a 5th level artificer can drain epic level items, artifacts, even items made by the gods themselves, and turn it into useless junk. Thats broken.
Meyer, are you assuming your character always hits on the attack roll? I'm seeing a lot of, "Then my Close Quarters Fighting deals 20 damage to him", or "I power attack for full and do 30 damage", with no chance to miss (except due to miss chance) factored in. That said it's rather late here and I may be missing something obvious.
Ah, the way that damage is dealt is by multiplying the average damage by the hit chance.
Example: Spiked chain (2d4) +1 with +6 str damage would be doing an average of 12 damage. If the character hits 50% of the time, it would be 6 damage shown.
This is the way we did it in the gauntlet, to eliminate the randomness of the die rolls.
Well, how is everyone defining 'overpowered' in this discussion? I don't think having a cleric do 'slightly better' by using less resources demonstrates that casters are overpowered.
Thanks,
Btw ... I am still not sure how the cleric used less resources.
It used more gp in expendable resources (charges, silver dust, unholy water, onyx (even through it ended up with undead at the end))
It used more renewable resources (spells -- Since maneuvers auto-refresh at the end of the encounter, it does not make sense to count them as being used).
If you want a sample overpowered caster, try Kablooie the Resourceful Halfling (just search for the thread). Destroy all living creatures within 10 miles per caster level with a first level spell. Whee.
JaronK
I don't know what "locate city" is ... but arcane thesis, does not work the way it says it does in the post
From the FAQ:
If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell, is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per metamagic feat applied?
Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagicaffected spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent (+1 level) fireball would be 6th level.p
Level 5 Melee:
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 29
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
So...you're using the Generic Rogue as presented in the Unearthed Arcana which specifically says that you should not use them with the character classes in the PHB?
So...you're using the Generic Rogue as presented in the Unearthed Arcana which specifically says that you should not use them with the character classes in the PHB?
No, I am using the feat rogue variant ... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm
Rogue
The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.
Gain
Bonus feats (as fighter).
Lose
Sneak attack.
I don't know what "locate city" is ... but arcane thesis, does not work the way it says it does in the post
That's a non-issue. Even with all those metamagic feats tacked on it's under ninth level. The only difference is that he can cast it a few less times per day. And at your character's 5th level, without a ninth level spell slot or a few of the other non-required metamagic feats, he still kills everything in a 50-mile radius multiple times per day.
Does that count as 'overpowered' yet?
First I would like to say that, for the most part, Meyer really has been very fair in the way he tackled/run the challenges. Likewise his build is legitimate by CO standards (but for the one rather minor flaw that was pointed out and subsequently fixed). I'll assume the same rules set he apparently used (flaws, class variants, all books).
Meyer - you are wanting us to show you a build is overpowered by tackling a series of challenges which we *should* be able to overcome. A better test would be a series of challenges we *shouldn't* be able to overcome.
Let's run the CR 5 gauntlet challenges. Anything that can beat them can very fairly be deemed overpowered.
I'll fix up a version of PhaedrusXY's build and run that as well. It would be interesting to see how the Cleric does vs the CR 5. Please point out if I make mistakes as I'm more of an armchair optimizer.
I suspect an Arcane caster could do it using PhaedrusXY's trick. I suspect the above cleric with a few tweaks could beat it. I suspect a Druid with a few tweaks could do it. We'll see.
Best,
David
Lets see your character a 1st, 10th, 15th, and 20th like so we can see what he would be like throughout his career, you said should be done with spellcasters.
Also
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Also you qualify for the Berserker Strength alternate class feature, unlike what you said before.
I don't know what "locate city" is ... but arcane thesis, does not work the way it says it does in the post
From the FAQ:
The FAQ predates the Errata, which states that Arcane Thesis does work that way (or, at least, close enough).
Meyer_William,
Lets see your character a 1st, 10th, 15th, and 20th like so we can see what he would be like throughout his career, you said should be done with spellcasters.
Also
Also you qualify for the Berserker Strength alternate class feature, unlike what you said before.
Calronmoonflower - his point is not that a combat monkey is as strong as a caster at levels 10, 15 or 20. It is that a combat monkey is stronger at lowish levels ... like level 5.
Best,
David
Build
Strongheart Halfling Sorcerer 5 w/ Metamagic Specialist variant instead of familiar
Feats: Otherworldly, Precocious Apprentice, Still, Versatile Spellcaster, weapon focus - ray (2 levels, 1 halfing, 2 flaws)
Flaws: any 2
Attributes - Elite Array
STR 10 (12 – 2 race), CON 14, DEX 15 (13 + 2 race), INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16 (+1 from levels)
Initiative = +1
HP = 24
BAB = 2
Saves = 3/2/4 (5/4/6 w/ Protection from Evil)
AC = 10 + 1 Dex + 15 (alter self - Dwarven Ancestor) + 2 (Protection from Evil) + 4 (Mage Armor) = 32
To Hit with Ray: +2 (BAB) + 1 (Size - if small, -1 if large) + 2 (Dex) + 1 (weapon focus – ray) = +6 (or +4)
Spells:
Level 1: Ray of Clumsiness, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Grease
Level 2: Alter Self, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility
Items – Gold = 9000 GP
Heavy Repeating Crossbow
Many Crossbow Bolts of various kinds
Dagger
Bastard Sword
- Lesser Rod of Metamagic-extend (3,000 gp) – extend 3 spells per day
- Belt of Healing: 750 gp
A few potions of healing.
~4500 gp left (for a ring of sustenance, etc.)
Alter Self Forms:
Scouting: Minor Xorn - +12 NA, small Size, 20 feet burrow, 2D8 bite, 3 1D3 Claws, all around vision (note - other forms also have burrow, but this is the best)
Combat: Dwarven Ancestor - +18 NA, 20 feet, can cast spells
Flying Form: Ravid – +15 NA, 60 feet flying perfect (note: other forms also have flight, but this is the best).
Buff Ritual:
Casts Mage Armor -> 5 hours
Casts Alter Self -> 50 Minutes
Before the entrance into the cave
Casts Protection from Evil (extended by Lesser Rod of Metamagic) – lasts 10 minutes
Please give feedback both about the legality and the optimality of the build. In a non-solo environment, I would have flipped Int and Str, and probably wouldn't have taken.
Best,
David
Playing Stupid – I change shape into a Dwarven Ancestor, and walk straight through the cave. Like Meyer, I’ll go this at night:
manticore
After casting protection from evil, it can only hit on a 20 in either Dwarven Ancestor form or Minor Xorn form (with mage armor on). After plinking at it with the bow for 4 rounds, I hit twice and do ~11 points of damage. It attacks from range, hitting once for 7 points of damage.
Once it is done attacking at range, it starts to come in and attack in passing, getting in one hit every 20 rounds, for ~ 10 points of damage. I hit back with the bow for 5 points of damage every 3 rounds => 30 points of damage. Every 20 rounds.
I win this endurance game, and the Manticore flees, probably after it has done 12 points of damage, and I have done 26.
If I wanted to, 3 Rays of Clumsiness could take it out, but I’d prefer to save the spell slots.
I take advantage of 1 charge from the Healing Belt – still down 2 HP
constrictor snake
One casting of Ray of Stupidity takes it out for the count. It never had a chance.
wraith
Since I had already cast protection from evil the wraith can’t hurt me. I plink at it with my bow until it flees.
huge rug
Assuming that the rug gets the grapple, this is a dangerous encounter for our intrepid spellcaster. A stilled, ray of clumsiness, followed by a stilled ray of clumsiness takes it out, at the exorbitant cost of 2 2nd level spell slots.
A lenient DM would let me cast grease on the rug (or myself) to let me escape the grapple if the rug fails the DC of the grease spell. Then I would cast alter self and escape the rug, later plinking away at it with the bow. This would save some HP and is basically a superior tactic.
I take advantage of 1 more charge from the healing belt, twice.
young black dragon
2 castings of Ray of Clumsiness take it out of commission. Only 1 attack out of 20 will hit, so damage is minimal. Breath weapon does 15 on 1st hit, 7 on 2nd hit (I make the save the 2nd time, as saves are +2 due to Protection from Evil)
Spells Used:
Level 1: Ray of Clumsiness *2 (Dragon), Protection from Evil, Mage Armor = 4 spells of 7
Level 2: Alter Self, Ray of Stupidity (Constrictor), Stilled Ray of Clumsiness *2 (Rug) = 5 spells of 5
Note that I have assumed all of the Rays hit … odds are that 1 of the rays misses, but I have sufficient HP to last an extra round, and get the bad guy with the next ray.
We could also use Versatile spellcaster to get another level 2 spell slot if needed.
Playing Smarter:
Or, playing smart, I alter self into a Xorn, bypass all the obstacles by burrowing through the earth, Kill the dragon, and leave.
Or, playing medium smart, I alter self into a Ravid (or any fast flying creature). I play tag with the Manticore, so that it can’t hit me, but I can hit it (my fly speed faster than its’). Same with Constrictor snake. Wraith is as easy as ever. I never even know the rug is there. Dragon is basically the same.
Conclusion
Really, this just shows that some spells are amazing for protection and bypassing encounters (Alter Self), and some spells are great for offense (Ray of Stupidity / Clumsiness). Invisibility could also be used to bypass ~ ½ of the encounters as well.
With more information about encounters, wizards (and to a lesser extent, sorcerers) become more overpowered. If you ban the alter self spell, they are still strong, but not obviously stronger than non-casters in solo combat. They can, however, still be wicked using minions (via rebuke undead, creating undead, commanding animals, etc.)
Additionally, they can do things to completely bypass encounters that non-casters would have a hard time doing without spending a lot of gp.
- Looking at the above, a Druid with a Fleshraker animal companion could beat the above but it would be tough. (Especially after the CON drain).
- A Warlock UMD monkey could do it pretty easily, although it would cost gp.
- An Artificer could do it, although it would cost gp.
- A cleric would need to be prepped with a small army of undead to make it.
Notice, however, that it is pretty much only full casters who are on the list (or people who specialize in using items which can cast spells).
This, however, just proves what people have always said – spell casters are overpowered because spells are overpowered.
The major difference at very low levels is only partly shown by this challenge - they get options which can completely invalidate encounters, and (not shown by this encounter) they get access to wonderful battlefield control.
Best,
David
Conclusion
Really, this just shows that some spells are amazing for protection and bypassing encounters (Alter Self), and some spells are great for offense (Ray of Stupidity / Clumsiness). Invisibility could also be used to bypass ~ ½ of the encounters as well.
With more information about encounters, wizards (and to a lesser extent, sorcerers) become more overpowered. If you ban the alter self spell, they are still strong, but not obviously stronger than non-casters in solo combat. They can, however, still be wicked using minions (via rebuke undead, creating undead, commanding animals, etc.)
Additionally, they can do things to completely bypass encounters that non-casters would have a hard time doing without spending a lot of gp.
- Looking at the above, a Druid with a Fleshraker animal companion could beat the above but it would be tough. (Especially after the CON drain).
- A Warlock UMD monkey could do it pretty easily, although it would cost gp.
- An Artificer could do it, although it would cost gp.
- A cleric would need to be prepped with a small army of undead to make it.
Notice, however, that it is pretty much only full casters who are on the list (or people who specialize in using items which can cast spells).
This, however, just proves what people have always said – spell casters are overpowered because spells are overpowered.
The major difference at very low levels is only partly shown by this challenge - they get options which can completely invalidate encounters, and (not shown by this encounter) they get access to wonderful battlefield control.
Best,
David
As I already pointed out, spellcasters do not equal spells, the way fighters do not equal melee.
Any spell effect of 4th level or lower is easily replicated with a discount wand (activated by UMD, 1-level dip into cleric with magic domain, etc). Spells like Alter Self and rays in fact become more powerful in the hands of fighter-types. I'll have zero trouble in replicating the above walkthru spell-by-spell with a fighter-type, only that the fighter type will be far more powerful than the sorcerer due to hp, BAB, combat feat chains, etc.
At this point, the "UMD costs gold" argument is thrown. Yes, it does. Who cares? A 10-charge, 5th CL, wand of Alter Self is 1500gp, I'll use 1 charge to defeat the above encounters. Five encounters of CR 5 yield average treasure of 20,000gp, all of them for a single character. UMD costs are negligible when it comes to what min/maxed characters accomplish with it.
A more realistic "proof" of casters' power would be proving the power of DC-related spells, which are more of a caster-only province than rays and alter self, outshines the benefits of higher hp, bab, feats at levels 1-8. Alternatively, go levels 9+ and prove spells of level 5 or higher are not as easily duplicated.
Because we want the arcane caster to compare to a tank, I'll play a Sorcerer.
BuildShow
Strongheart Halfling Sorcerer 5 w/ Metamagic Specialist variant instead of familiar
Feats: Otherworldly, Precocious Apprentice, Still, Versatile Spellcaster, weapon focus - ray (2 levels, 1 halfing, 2 flaws)
Flaws: any 2
Attributes - Elite Array
STR 10 (12 – 2 race), CON 14, DEX 15 (13 + 2 race), INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16 (+1 from levels)
Initiative = +1
HP = 24
BAB = 2
Saves = 3/2/4 (5/4/6 w/ Protection from Evil)
AC = 10 + 1 Dex + 15 (alter self - Dwarven Ancestor) + 2 (Protection from Evil) + 4 (Mage Armor) = 32
To Hit with Ray: +2 (BAB) + 1 (Size - if small, -1 if large) + 2 (Dex) + 1 (weapon focus – ray) = +6 (or +4)
Spells:
Level 1: Ray of Clumsiness, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Grease
Level 2: Alter Self, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility
Items – Gold = 9000 GP
Heavy Repeating Crossbow
Many Crossbow Bolts of various kinds
Dagger
Bastard Sword
- Lesser Rod of Metamagic-extend (3,000 gp) – extend 3 spells per day
- Belt of Healing: 750 gp
A few potions of healing.
~4500 gp left (for a ring of sustenance, etc.)
Alter Self Forms:
Scouting: Minor Xorn - +12 NA, small Size, 20 feet burrow, 2D8 bite, 3 1D3 Claws, all around vision (note - other forms also have burrow, but this is the best)
Combat: Dwarven Ancestor - +18 NA, 20 feet, can cast spells
Flying Form: Ravid – +15 NA, 60 feet flying perfect (note: other forms also have flight, but this is the best).
wraith
Since I had already cast protection from evil the wraith can’t hurt me. I plink at it with my bow until it flees.
I fail to see why protection from evil protects from a wraith so well. It is not a summoned creature (which would attack once it is attacked, anyway) and it is not a creature that possesses character either.
CR 5 monsters. This should be a terrible day for any CR 5 character.
Playing Stupid – I change shape into a Dwarven Ancestor, and walk straight through the cave. Like Meyer, I’ll go this at night:
manticoreShow
After casting protection from evil, it can only hit on a 20 in either Dwarven Ancestor form or Minor Xorn form (with mage armor on). After plinking at it with the bow for 4 rounds, I hit twice and do ~11 points of damage. It attacks from range, hitting once for 7 points of damage.
Once it is done attacking at range, it starts to come in and attack in passing, getting in one hit every 20 rounds, for ~ 10 points of damage. I hit back with the bow for 5 points of damage every 3 rounds => 30 points of damage. Every 20 rounds.
I win this endurance game, and the Manticore flees, probably after it has done 12 points of damage, and I have done 26.
If I wanted to, 3 Rays of Clumsiness could take it out, but I’d prefer to save the spell slots.
I take advantage of 1 charge from the Healing Belt – still down 2 HP
Playing Smarter:
Or, playing smart, I alter self into a Xorn, bypass all the obstacles by burrowing through the earth, Kill the dragon, and leave.
Or, playing medium smart, I alter self into a Ravid (or any fast flying creature). I play tag with the Manticore, so that it can’t hit me, but I can hit it (my fly speed faster than its’). Same with Constrictor snake. Wraith is as easy as ever. I never even know the rug is there. Dragon is basically the same.
Conclusion
Really, this just shows that some spells are amazing for protection and bypassing encounters (Alter Self), and some spells are great for offense (Ray of Stupidity / Clumsiness). Invisibility could also be used to bypass ~ ½ of the encounters as well.
There is a fine line between bypassing an encounter and running from it.
In most dungeon crawls (which this is), PCs try to explore every room, looking for treasure, so bypassing the encounters (xorn approach - burrowing) is not terribly feasible.
With more information about encounters, wizards (and to a lesser extent, sorcerers) become more overpowered. If you ban the alter self spell, they are still strong, but not obviously stronger than non-casters in solo combat. They can, however, still be wicked using minions (via rebuke undead, creating undead, commanding animals, etc.)
Additionally, they can do things to completely bypass encounters that non-casters would have a hard time doing without spending a lot of gp.
This is true of spellcasters who have divinations and the time to use divinations. It is not true of the character you posted.
I would like to see the flaws you chose as well as skills (if you do not mind) so that I can get a better idea of what you bring to the party (other than spells). However, as we all know -- alter self is terrific, especially with otherworldly.
- Looking at the above, a Druid with a Fleshraker animal companion could beat the above but it would be tough. (Especially after the CON drain).
- A Warlock UMD monkey could do it pretty easily, although it would cost gp.
- An Artificer could do it, although it would cost gp.
- A cleric would need to be prepped with a small army of undead to make it.
Notice, however, that it is pretty much only full casters who are on the list (or people who specialize in using items which can cast spells).
This, however, just proves what people have always said – spell casters are overpowered because spells are overpowered.
I would like to see the above do it before we agree that they could.
I am working on a rogue (trapfinder) build right now to run through the same thing. Notice, although I have UMD on my first build (melee -- fighter role, secondary healer), I did not use it, reason being was that I wanted to avoid any cheese talk about UMD for the win. This was because if I needed UMD for the win, then it could be argued that a caster could do the same thing cheaper and better.
As I already pointed out, spellcasters do not equal spells, the way fighters do not equal melee.
Any spell effect of 4th level or lower is easily replicated with a discount wand (activated by UMD, 1-level dip into cleric with magic domain, etc). Spells like Alter Self and rays in fact become more powerful in the hands of fighter-types. I'll have zero trouble in replicating the above walkthru spell-by-spell with a fighter-type, only that the fighter type will be far more powerful than the sorcerer due to hp, BAB, combat feat chains, etc.
For purposes of this thread, you cannot dip into cleric/etc as they are spellcasters. You can dip into PrCs with their own casting progression if the casting is not central to the PrC (i.e. no Ur-Priest, but you can take Pious Templar). If you need to dip into a spellcaster for the win, then this helps prove the overpoweredness of casters.
UMD has a failure rate. This is very bad for in-combat spells. Out of combat, you just try again until you make it (or roll a 1).
Unless you take other-worldly, the choice of forms he chose is not possible for you.
At this point, the "UMD costs gold" argument is thrown. Yes, it does. Who cares? A 10-charge, 5th CL, wand of Alter Self is 1500gp, I'll use 1 charge to defeat the above encounters. Five encounters of CR 5 yield average treasure of 20,000gp, all of them for a single character. UMD costs are negligible when it comes to what min/maxed characters accomplish with it.
A more realistic "proof" of casters' power would be proving the power of DC-related spells, which are more of a caster-only province than rays and alter self, outshines the benefits of higher hp, bab, feats at levels 1-8. Alternatively, go levels 9+ and prove spells of level 5 or higher are not as easily duplicated.
The other issue, is that to use a wand, you have to have it in your hand. Spellcasters do not suffer this limitation.
I would like to see you try a UMD build through this encounter.
Meyer_William,
Lets see your character at 1st, 10th, 15th, and 20th like so we can see what he would be like throughout his career, you said should be done with spellcasters.
1st level, it is a level 1 feat rogue filling the role of melee.
Orc makes up for the -1 BAB. Combat reflexes and reach weapon (long spear at level 1) helps make up for lack of hps.
I have no problem posting a 10th level version of this character. It will take a while, as for me, building optimized characters takes a while. And yes, I think it would prove something, as I am of the opinion that a 10th level noncaster can keep up with a 10th level caster.
I can post a 15th level version, but that is about the point where I am no longer sure that noncasters can keep up with casters.
I won't bother to post a 20th level version of this character.
Also you qualify for the Berserker Strength alternate class feature, unlike what you said before.
It only activates when my hps drop below 5*barbarian level. Which is currently 1. So it only activates when I have 5 hps or less. No thank you.
No, I am using the feat rogue variant ... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm
Which I have to point out, is not called a 'feat rogue,' hence my confusion.
I do have a few questions on your character, though. Why sorcerer instead of wizard? You could have had 3rd level spells. Scribe Scroll can make up for loss of "versatility" from not having spontaneous casting.
Also, I don't think halflings qualify for Otherworldly. It is a regional feat from Forgotten Realms, and only a few races qualify. I know elves are one. The feat has been reprinted at least once, and I'm not sure what else qualifies.
The wraith is potentially a big problem for this character. Several Magic Missiles could take it out easily, but it is likely to win initiative and also to get a surprize round. It could potentially take out the halfling before he even got to do anything. The elf I posted had a higher strength, so he'd probably beat it, but he'd have to go get someone to cure his Strength damage for him before continuing. Also, I doubt I'd prepare a bunch of Magic Missiles unless I knew I'd face something like this. A crossbow with Magic Weapon cast on it would take it out eventually, though.
I do agree with the others that using a Warblade for the melee in this "contest" is kind of cheating. :P I don't think anyone doubts that Tome of Battle characters are competative with casters at least through the lower levels, and mid levels if built well.
Encounter 1: Manticore
Show
Round 1:
I win init
I drop my stance, and enter total defense (AC 20):
It hits me three times (45% chance each) for a total of 19.5 damage.
Round 2-whatever.
I double move and heal. I then use a charge from my belt. I am now at 26.5 hps.
Round whatever +1
I ready an action to move 30' when I am attacked.
I will either take 0 damage from the next set of 6 spikes (favors me) or I will take 0 damage from the next spike. Alternately, I might just get hit one spike at a time, which is no big deal for me, as I can easily heal that (draconic aura).
It now either gives up on me, (win) or uses up its spikes and it needs to engage me on the ground. Per my previous posting. On the ground, it loses. (I drop it to 5 hps in first round, per previous postings).
If it dive bombs me (moves and melee attacks), I get one AoO on it, then I start moving. I either get hit (fire riposte) or I don't get hit, either way. Dive bombing is not a viable win tactic for it. In fact, if it doesn't end up out of my reach, this kills it.
I either spend one or two charges for healing. I have 5 available and I use one charge for each of encounters 2-4, which means I had two available to use.
I have no duration spells in place, so I do not care how long this battle takes. I don't really know how to describe this better as there are too many variables to take into account. For instance, to increase its sight range, it needs to get closer to the ground. If it gets too close to the ground, then I can charge/kill it (assuming it takes even 5 damage from the earlier part of the fight).
This is counted as a tie/bypass ... however, if the manticore ever lands ... it dies.
Round 1:
I win init
I drop my stance, and enter total defense (AC 20):
It hits me three times (45% chance each) for a total of 19.5 damage.
Round 2-whatever.
I double move and heal. I then use a charge from my belt. I am now at 26.5 hps.
Round whatever +1
I ready an action to move 30' when I am attacked.
I will either take 0 damage from the next set of 6 spikes (favors me) or I will take 0 damage from the next spike. Alternately, I might just get hit one spike at a time, which is no big deal for me, as I can easily heal that (draconic aura).
It now either gives up on me, (win) or uses up its spikes and it needs to engage me on the ground. Per my previous posting. On the ground, it loses. (I drop it to 5 hps in first round, per previous postings).
If it dive bombs me (moves and melee attacks), I get one AoO on it, then I start moving. I either get hit (fire riposte) or I don't get hit, either way. Dive bombing is not a viable win tactic for it. In fact, if it doesn't end up out of my reach, this kills it.
I either spend one or two charges for healing. I have 5 available and I use one charge for each of encounters 2-4, which means I had two available to use.
I have no duration spells in place, so I do not care how long this battle takes. I don't really know how to describe this better as there are too many variables to take into account. For instance, to increase its sight range, it needs to get closer to the ground. If it gets too close to the ground, then I can charge/kill it (assuming it takes even 5 damage from the earlier part of the fight).
This is counted as a tie/bypass ... however, if the manticore ever lands ... it dies.
I'm not sure the black dragon would try to close with a Large orc swinging a spiked chain when it has its breath weapon refreshing in a round and the orc only heals 1 hp a round either, what happenes if it uses a withdraw action and waits to breath on its next turn?
1) the dragon knowing it was only 1 point of healing per round is metagame knowledge. To act on it is effectively cheating. All it knows is the wounds are closing.
2) withdrawing is an option, however, it's breath weapon was rather minor, and leaving for a round would allow an opponent time to drink a cure potion to offset the damage from the last one (especially combined with the natural healing), leaving the now injured dragon breathing on an unhurt opponent and then being stuck in the exact same spot (incur an AoO or run away), except he'll be down 1 additional hit.
3) knowing it's breath weapon is coming back next round is metaknowledge. it's supposed to be random, Meyer was using averages for simplicity, doesn't mean the dragon knew that.
One question: how much time are we assuming it takes you to get from one encounter to the next? You assume that potion of fly will last you the entire crawl, but it's duration is only 5 minutes and you spend one minute healing after the first fight. If this were a dungeon crawl, wouldn't you be taking your time to move through it in case of traps? I'm not sure the black dragon would try to close with a Large orc swinging a spiked chain when it has its breath weapon refreshing in a round and the orc only heals 1 hp a round either, what happenes if it uses a withdraw action and waits to breath on its next turn?
Thanks for the feedback.
1)The mini-adventure doesn't specify any length of time between encounters, so I am unsure of how much time passes.
2) If there were traps, I could skim over them, not activating them. There is also no mention of locks/etc. However, with this being a CR 5 filled dungeon for 1 CR 5 character, I don't think that is something that we should be worried about.
3) The black dragon could choose to not approach, but then while it waits for its breath weapon to recharge, I heal my 1 hp, then drink a potion of faith healing (my last one). I now have slightly more hps than when the dragon first breathed on me. It doesn't know how many potions I have, etc. Depending on how much time elapses, I can spent a swift+standard to regain my manuevers.
4) Withdrawal only helps it out for 1 5' square, which means that it would still provoke (assuming you meant leaving my 20' threatened area, as opposed to just staying in the room).
5) If it wasn't for fire-riposte, I would have had to retreat in that last round. (it would have breathed on me, killing me) Thats how close the fight is. Without metagaming, there is no reason for the dragon to know about that.
3) knowing it's breath weapon is coming back next round is metaknowledge. it's supposed to be random, Meyer was using averages for simplicity, doesn't mean the dragon knew that.
Draconomicon states that a dragon always knows when it will be able to use its breath weapon again.
Ah, the way that damage is dealt is by multiplying the average damage by the hit chance.
Example: Spiked chain (2d4) +1 with +6 str damage would be doing an average of 12 damage. If the character hits 50% of the time, it would be 6 damage shown.
This is the way we did it in the gauntlet, to eliminate the randomness of the die rolls.
Actually it started like that, it then turned into hitting when you hit or passed a certain percentage and adding a hundred after each hit. So if your chosen percentage was 65 and your to hit was 45 then the first attack would be a miss the second attack would be a hit. the third would be 135 so miss, fourth would be 180 so hit. It beats attacking for 10k damage when needing a 20 to hit a displaced blinking creature with a 100hp and deciding that since dealing 125 on average is enough to one shot it you win the encounter.
Actually it started like that, it then turned into hitting when you hit or passed a certain percentage and adding a hundred after each hit. So if your chosen percentage was 65 and your to hit was 45 then the first attack would be a miss the second attack would be a hit. the third would be 135 so miss, fourth would be 180 so hit. It beats attacking for 10k damage when needing a 20 to hit a displaced blinking creature with a 100hp and deciding that since dealing 125 on average is enough to one shot it you win the encounter.
In this mini-adventure.
For the blink dog: (miss chance)
Attack 1: I auto-miss (50% hit chance)
Attack 2: I do weighted damage (average damage * percent chance that I hit it) (100%)
Attack 3: I auto-miss (150% chance)
Attack 4: I do weighted damage, killing it.
For the Wraith:
Attack 1: I auto-miss (50% hit chance)
Attack 2: I do weighted damage (100%)
Attack 3: I auto-miss (150% hit chance)
Attack 4: I do weighted damage, killing it.
For most of these fights, my to-hit bonus (bab 4, str 5, weapon 1, rapid wolf 4) is close enough to the enemy's AC that if I were do accumulate hit chance, I would be doing more damage.
In the gauntlet, my multiple characters (barbarian, fighter, warrior, commoner) each used the weighted average. People were using the accumulating percentages for things like trip, etc (things that you cannot do a partial effect for).
I would like to see you try a UMD build through this encounter.
Meyer, I don't think presenting such a build at this point of the thread will help the discussion. For one, we're short of casters, in fact all the casters presented so far are either incomplete, incorrect, or incompetent.
Moreover, the focus of the thread has shifted too much from power to frugality. When people argue about 75gp, instead of rejoycing they survived the "optimized" gauntlet...well, that's not my idea of power. In your own words:
1) Power is the ability to interact in any encounter (social, brute force, other) with a high degree of effectiveness.
2) Power is the ability to smash things into itty-bitty pieces (brute force).
3) Power is the ability to defeat encounters (teleport bypasses bridges, disable device bypasses traps, diplomacy/bluff bypasses social things, invisibility bypasses guards)
In most every published adventure xp is awarded as follows:
Combat: Lots
Traps: Some
Other: Few
With this being the case, power is best expressed as #2, brute force.
For now, we're lacking "brute force". We're lacking encounters that are truly challenging. At the very least we could've used MM3 monsters; we're also lacking environment that is useful or at least fair to the monsters. When two builds defeat the same encounter, why not avoid arguing about costs, which, by the way, are insignificant to the treasure gained, and progress to harder and harder encounters until one of the builds drops?
Which brings us back to problem one: no powerful caster build at hand, no point to buff the encounters further, no point to post new noncaster builds.
I hope the pro-casters stop leaving the thread and defend their position with facts. Facts in complete character lists, not blank statesments as "my incatatrix makes any noncaster useless by level 7, but I won't even post my spells for the day".
In the meantime, I'm off to win yet another PvP arena
Well I guess I should actually get off my lazey butt and post a build:
Well I guess I should actually get off my lazey butt and post a build:
Meyer, I don't think presenting such a build at this point of the thread will help the discussion. For one, we're short of casters, in fact all the casters presented so far are either incomplete, incorrect, or incompetent.
Is this normal, or do all the people who are good optimizers just ignore this thread?
Moreover, the focus of the thread has shifted too much from power to frugality. When people argue about 75gp, instead of rejoycing they survived the "optimized" gauntlet...well, that's not my idea of power. In your own words:
Hey -- I did my share of rejoicing that I survived all the encounters ... I especially rejoiced when other people pointed out how fair I played them.
Sorry for bringing up the 75 gold, but when people are saying that the other combatant (cleric) used up less resources, I was curious to know which metrics they were using.
For now, we're lacking "brute force". We're lacking encounters that are truly challenging. At the very least we could've used MM3 monsters; we're also lacking environment that is useful or at least fair to the monsters. When two builds defeat the same encounter, why not avoid arguing about costs, which, by the way, are insignificant to the treasure gained, and progress to harder and harder encounters until one of the builds drops?
Um, the way I see it ... these encounters are very challenging. No caster has yet to beat the CR 5 version of it. I don't see the point in raising the bar when it seems to already be too high.
And, I did progress from CR2 to CR5. Without dropping. Even versus a creature immune to weapon damage (which if I had to refight it, it would have been much easier after trading out the weapon focus for the burning blade) ... and ones with 50% miss chances ... and autograpplers ... and ones that ATE MY GEAR (2 weapons).
I am unsure what else I need to do to prove that noncasters are not underpowered compared to spellcasters at low levels. (My opinion/stance is that casters < noncasters level 1-7, casters = noncasters levels 8-14, casters > noncasters levels 15+)
Which brings us back to problem one: no powerful caster build at hand, no point to buff the encounters further, no point to post new noncaster builds.
Which is sad really ...
I hope the pro-casters stop leaving the thread and defend their position with facts. Facts in complete character lists, not blank statesments as "my incatatrix makes any noncaster useless by level 7, but I won't even post my spells for the day".
I agree.
In the meantime, I'm off to win yet another PvP arena
Good luck.
I'm working on Lockdown, and now the Goku thread. And a core-only fighter. And real life. But I plan on getting a caster build here. At some point.
I'm still looking through books for spells. I hope to have a build soon (though if someone can point me to the list of CR's, that'd be great).
I'm working on Lockdown, and now the Goku thread. And a core-only fighter. And real life. But I plan on getting a caster build here. At some point.
I totally understand ... it took me a while for my build (real life + two threads), as it takes more than the 10 minutes or so that someone posted earlier to make an optimized character.
Just remember, you do not know the encounters ahead of time (other than the color of the dragon).
OK, based on your character ... here is the fight.
Round 1: It probably beats you in initiative, as it has a +1 bonus. This is how my Orc did it. If you want initiative, feel free to take it.
It unleashed 6 spikes on you (+8 attack bonus vs flatfooted ac of 15). Each doing 1d8+2-2 damage. This is a total weighted average of 24 damage. You are now down to 6 hps.
You can either shoot it with a crossbow bolt or heal.
I cannot see how you win.
As you can see -- this is not a cake walk.
That weighted damage changes dramatically after a ray of clumsiness with follow up spectral hands carring shivering touches tanking the things dex and chance to hit
No mention was made to the height of the ceiling, but it is huge (15) with reach (10) that is a long way for it to reach you. Additionally, unless you hug the ceiling then it will be able to attack you.
One hit is enough to grapple you for the win.
I cannot see how you win.
Thats more than enough room for me to stay out of reach and still basically negate the fight. Also you should point out teh details of teh enviroment before hand.
He also gets initiative on you (+7 vs +1)
His incorporal touch attack is +5, your flatfooted incorporal touch ac is 10. He should be able to hit you -- possibly draining you of 3.5 con (con is now 10.5)
Unless I missed something, assuming you have at least 5 ranks in Knowledge Undead for the synergy bonus, on a roll of 10 you have a cleric level of (10+3 (char)+2(synergy)) = 15, or cleric level +1 -- which is not enough to rebuke him.
Actually it is, cleric level +1 would be 6 and a wraith only have 5 HD. so yes on an average roll of 10 I would be able to rebuke (command) him.
Unfortunately, with a max hps of 10, the first grapple it does ... kills you.
You do not get to auto-kill this, as you do not know it animates until it surprises you.
Like your character I am assuming the potion of fly is still active thus I am flying over it thus bypassing it.
You send in the wraith. When you hit the dragon with the ray of enfeeblement, the dragon breathes on you (average damage kills you).
Your assumiing that I fail the save vs the wraith and that it got multiple shots on me which it won't. So no the average damage will not kill me.
Unless I missed something major, you only beat one encounter out of five.
that would be weighting damage without penalties from my spells, not stateing the enviroment peramiters, and miss usiing turn/rebuke attempts.
That weighted damage changes dramatically after a ray of clumsiness with follow up spectral hands carring shivering touches tanking the things dex and chance to hit
OK ... lets continue the round 1 after it's turn.
After you are at 6 hps ... what do you do? If you use ray of clumsiness (which is not that you originally said you were doing), then it kills you with its next volley of 6 spikes.
Casting spectral hand deals 1d4 damage to you. Can you afford the damage?
Thats more than enough room for me to stay out of reach and still basically negate the fight. Also you should point out teh details of teh enviroment before hand.
I didn't make the encounters ... I just pointed out that it would be really really tough for you to bypass this. Additionally, if the answer to spellcasters being overpowered is that they can drink potions and avoid fights ... then something is wrong here.
Actually it is, cleric level +1 would be 6 and a wraith only have 5 HD. so yes on an average roll of 10 I would be able to rebuke (command) him.
Wraiths have turn resistance 2. This means you need a cleric level +2 to affect it.
Like your character I am assuming the potion of fly is still active thus I am flying over it thus bypassing it.
Like the snake, if you bypass an encounter like this (that you do not know about) this is not showing the power of a caster.
Your assumiing that I fail the save vs the wraith and that it got multiple shots on me which it won't. So no the average damage will not kill me.
What part of my post was inaccurate? I am unsure how many saves you will make/fail. But we know that it takes more than 1 round for you and the wraith to beat the dragon.
Unless I missed something major, you only beat one encounter out of five.
that would be weighting damage without penalties from my spells, not stateing the enviroment peramiters, and miss usiing turn/rebuke attempts.
Well, assuming you were able to bypass 2 encounters -- you still only beat one encounter out of five.
Also, can you show me which rounds I did not apply penalties from your spells? (or rather, can you point to where you state that you CAST a spell)
Is this normal, or do all the people who are good optimizers just ignore this thread?
They ignore it is my guess. Below level 7 casters just aren't as overpowering. It takes serious cheese to break spellcasters early game. No point in argueing with an overwhelming exception (I get the right fallacy?). My thoughts anyways.
They ignore it is my guess. Below level 7 casters just aren't as overpowering. It takes serious cheese to break spellcasters early game. No point in argueing with an overwhelming exception (I get the right fallacy?). My thoughts anyways.
I think thats about right. Melee characters are competitive at early levels, and ToB characters especially so. Spellcasters become overwhelmingly powerful in higher levels.
They ignore it is my guess. Below level 7 casters just aren't as overpowering. It takes serious cheese to break spellcasters early game. No point in argueing with an overwhelming exception (I get the right fallacy?). My thoughts anyways.
Overwhelming exception? 7 levels is an exception? 1/3 of the game (1-20)?
Would you say that my estimates for levels are about right then?
Ah, the way that damage is dealt is by multiplying the average damage by the hit chance.
Example: Spiked chain (2d4) +1 with +6 str damage would be doing an average of 12 damage. If the character hits 50% of the time, it would be 6 damage shown.
This is the way we did it in the gauntlet, to eliminate the randomness of the die rolls.
Okay, the only thing I'm a little worried about there is that you're using CQF a lot as a grapple defence, and average damage isn't a very good metric for whether it works. For example, if I deal 50 damage on a hit, and hit 50% of the time, and the enemy's base grapple check is 15 points higher than mine, then I'll auto-win the grapple check 50% of the time and almost certainly lose it the other 50%. If we use the "average damage" method, my grapple check will always be 10 better than the enemy's, meaning I'll almost certainly win - and will definitely win if we assume average dice rolls. The difference between winning a grapple 100% of the time and winning it 50% of the time is really rather significant.
The point the other poster had about "make a build that does 10,000 damage but needs a 20 to hit, claim the resulting average damage is enough to one-shot anything" is also valid. Averaging damage only really works well if you're taking a lot of swings to drop the opponent.
Also, regarding the sorc build, ray of clumsiness inflicts a penalty to Dex, not Dex damage, which therefore doesn't stack with itself - and I believe it has the clause similar to ray of enfeeblement, that it can't take Dex below 1.
Overwhelming exception? 7 levels is an exception? 1/3 of the game (1-20)?
Would you say that my estimates for levels are about right then?
By overwhelming exception, more I think that he means that your build is a rather optimized, very dip-heavy version, that takes advantage of ToB, front-loaded classes, and flaws.
All of these things help non-casters, but don't help casters that much.
Regardless of whether he thinks that, I definitely do. I suspect a vanilla caster (well played - especiacially a CODzilla) is much stronger than a vanilla fighter / ranger / barbarian / rogue.
Best,
David
Overwhelming exception? 7 levels is an exception? 1/3 of the game (1-20)?
Would you say that my estimates for levels are about right then?
Two guys are in a race around the world:
New York to Mexico:
A has rollerblades. B has a bike.
Mexico to Brazil:
A uses a motorcycle. B uses a porsche.
Brazil to Hong Kong:
A flys comercial. B flys in a jet.
Tell me: Did A get owned? With class?
As I already pointed out, spellcasters do not equal spells, the way fighters do not equal melee.
Any spell effect of 4th level or lower is easily replicated with a discount wand (activated by UMD, 1-level dip into cleric with magic domain, etc). Spells like Alter Self and rays in fact become more powerful in the hands of fighter-types. I'll have zero trouble in replicating the above walkthru spell-by-spell with a fighter-type, only that the fighter type will be far more powerful than the sorcerer due to hp, BAB, combat feat chains, etc.
I agree.
At this point, the "UMD costs gold" argument is thrown. Yes, it does. Who cares? A 10-charge, 5th CL, wand of Alter Self is 1500gp, I'll use 1 charge to defeat the above encounters. Five encounters of CR 5 yield average treasure of 20,000gp, all of them for a single character. UMD costs are negligible when it comes to what min/maxed characters accomplish with it.
For buffing, that is true, but there is a significant chance of failure.
A more realistic "proof" of casters' power would be proving the power of DC-related spells, which are more of a caster-only province than rays and alter self, outshines the benefits of higher hp, bab, feats at levels 1-8. Alternatively, go levels 9+ and prove spells of level 5 or higher are not as easily duplicated.
You would need roughly 4 1st level eternal wands, and 3 2nd level eternal wands to duplicate a 5th level sorcerer =>
4*820 + 3 * 4420 = 3260 + 13260 = 16,520 gp.
That is not quite twice your total gold, let alone leaving you room for any other items
Also, they might not activate, they might be sundered, can't be used as easily in a grapple, etc.
Best,
David
Halflings are small, dwarf ancestors are large ... you cannot alter self into one.
Ok. I play a human.
As I said at the bottom of my build, "Please give feedback both about the legality and the optimality of the build"
This also ensures that he can take Otherworldly, addressing PhaedrusXY's comment.
Best,
David
Okay, the only thing I'm a little worried about there is that you're using CQF a lot as a grapple defence, and average damage isn't a very good metric for whether it works. For example, if I deal 50 damage on a hit, and hit 50% of the time, and the enemy's base grapple check is 15 points higher than mine, then I'll auto-win the grapple check 50% of the time and almost certainly lose it the other 50%. If we use the "average damage" method, my grapple check will always be 10 better than the enemy's, meaning I'll almost certainly win - and will definitely win if we assume average dice rolls. The difference between winning a grapple 100% of the time and winning it 50% of the time is really rather significant.
The point the other poster had about "make a build that does 10,000 damage but needs a 20 to hit, claim the resulting average damage is enough to one-shot anything" is also valid. Averaging damage only really works well if you're taking a lot of swings to drop the opponent.
The AC's of a the grapplers that we have seen is are:
Giant Snake: 15, Grapple +23
Huge Rug: 13, Grapple +19
Large Rug: 14, Grapple +10
Brown Bear: 15, Grapple +16
Choker: 17, Grapple +5
My Grapple: +9. I auto-win vs the choken, basically tie the rug, and need the CQF to win versus the other 3.
My to hit is +(4 bab, 5 str, 1 sword) = 10 -- so I hit the snake/bear on a 5 (80% (60% with power attack) of the time), large rug on a 4 (85% (65% with power attack)), Huge rug on a 3 (90% (70% with power attack)) -- if we accumulate percentage then I hit in each of these, the percent is high enough to hit -- and then instead of dealing weighted average, i deal average damage (discounting the % miss). The damage is either (2d4(chain)+1(magic)+7(str)+1d6(stance)+8(power attack))=24.5 or (2d4+1+7+1d6) = 16.5.
With as low of ACs as we have been seeing in the encounters, there isn't much of a miss chance. On my turns, I do things to boost my attack bonus even higher (rage once, rabid wolf strike, charge, catch them flatfooted, be unable to be seen). I don't really see the problem. If, after you read this, you still see a problem, can you explain further?
Also, regarding the sorc build, ray of clumsiness inflicts a penalty to Dex, not Dex damage, which therefore doesn't stack with itself - and I believe it has the clause similar to ray of enfeeblement, that it can't take Dex below 1.
Thanks, with as many issues as I have seen in the caster build's, I guess I didn't catch them all.
By overwhelming exception, more I think that he means that your build is a rather optimized, very dip-heavy version, that takes advantage of ToB, front-loaded classes, and flaws.
All of these things help non-casters, but don't help casters that much.
Regardless of whether he thinks that, I definitely do. I suspect a vanilla caster (well played - especiacially a CODzilla) is much stronger than a vanilla fighter / ranger / barbarian / rogue.
Best,
David
Yes, my build is optimized. I planned it that way. This being the character optimization board, I thought that was expected of me. Yes, I love dipping into very dip-friendly classes as a non-caster. It is one of the advantages they have over casters, and one of the reasons why I started a thread on caster vs non-caster, as a lot of the supposed advantage that a caster has over a noncaster starts to disappear when you get creative. As a caster, I cannot dip as I lose caster levels (occasionally I do if I am going hybrid (enlightened fist/arcane trickster/mystic theurge/ultimage magus/etc)
On the classes board, we are discussing non-optimized caster vs non-optimized non-caster, and it looks like at low levels a DMM Cleric is slightly less optimal at fighting than a similarly build fighter. However, DMM cleric has spells for out-of-combat stuff -- which means it is personal preference, not power.
Two guys are in a race around the world:
New York to Mexico:
A has rollerblades. B has a bike.
Mexico to Brazil:
A uses a motorcycle. B uses a porsche.
Brazil to Hong Kong:
A flys comercial. B flys in a jet.
Tell me: Did A get owned? With class?
I know this one ...
Train A meets Train B in cleveland in 30 minutes.
But if you are trying to show me how casters at high levels being more powerful than low levels doesn't take into account that not all adventures start out at level 13+ (about the time that casters are really getting there -- and noncasters are starting to move over) -- some even END around there, so the high-powered-uber-plane-creating-shapechanging-gating spellcasters just don't get there yet.
Re: Manticore
I am unsure what will change with this fight when you choose a new form.
If he was in a form that had a flight speed faster than the manticore, after the manticore expended it's ranged attacks, then it could just be a game of shoot and fly out of manticore's range.
Re: Snake
Your character says your init bonus is +1, but your dex indicates it is +2 -- either way, the snake's init bonus is +3 (higher than yours).
Why do you win initiative? It should be able to grapple/squeeze you pretty easily (touch attack vs your really flatfooted touch AC (10 or so))?
If this happens, you still should be able to do your win strategy, but it takes 1 round to retrieve spell components from the spell component pouch in a grapple. It then takes the second round to cast. If it gets the pin (+23 vs +6) then I am unsure how you get out of the pin.
Well, if I was flying or burrowing, I would win initiative, and wouldn't be grappled.
That said, there are very few material components of note, and there is no reason he couldn't travel with them in his off hand.
Re: Wraith
Why does protection from evil prevent the wraith from hurting you? It is not summoned. It should be able to easily do an incorporal touch attack. Its +7 init beats your +1/+2 init very easily so it gets first attack, however its +5 bonus is not much versus your (10+4(mage armor) +2 (prot evil)) 16 -- so it hits 50% of the time.
Your crossbow is not magical, so you cannot hurt this monster, unless I missed something?
Ah, darn. You're right. Keep in mind that it only has a 50% chance of hitting me, and I have a 50% chance of saving. So there is only 1 chance in 4 that it does an average of 4 CON damage.
In that case either I cast alter self and burrow away, or I cast invisibility, and hide from it, bypassing this encounter.
Re: Rug
It wins initiative on you, and you take 14 damage from the first round of grappling.
You take a second 14 damage from the grapple.
This knocks you unconscious.
How do you live to cast the second ray of clumsiness?
Actually, I got confused, and was thinking I was facing a large rug rather than a huge rug.
In this case, I'd only survive if a lenient DM allowed a casting of grease to help allow me escape, and then move away.
Although, once again, any alternate form of movement (burrow, fly) and it would have been bypassed.
Re: Dragon
You show yourself taking 22 points of damage. Your max hps are 24, if the belt did not heal you up to full (24 or 23), then how do you survive?
I was (rather obviously) being a little lazy with the bookkeeping. I have a few potions of healing. Assume that I always take a potion anytime I need to.
Also, note that in your example, it only did 10 points of damage on the 1st breath (instead of my example's 15) and took 2.5 rounds for the breath to recharge (instead of my example's 1 round).
Best,
David
There is a fine line between bypassing an encounter and running from it.
In most dungeon crawls (which this is), PCs try to explore every room, looking for treasure, so bypassing the encounters (xorn approach - burrowing) is not terribly feasible.
My Major Point:
Well, if you have a combination of flight, burrowing and invisibility, you can also choose to engage the encounter on your own terms.
You pretty much are always able to buff for the threat you see, and you can almost always "win" initiative.
This is true of spellcasters who have divinations and the time to use divinations. It is not true of the character you posted.
That's correct - I assumed that my character was going in blind. In that section I was talking about wizards.
My point was that if we let a wizardly caster choose spells appropriately, that would be even stronger ... I didn't go that route because then it became more questionable.
Best,
David
DavidWL, thanks for building on what I posted. I doubt I'll have time to update or build any more characters for this thread.
Your build idea was quality, what can I say :-)
I do have a few questions on your character, though. Why sorcerer instead of wizard? You could have had 3rd level spells. Scribe Scroll can make up for loss of "versatility" from not having spontaneous casting.
Mostly because I just plain don't like prepared casting.
Also, I wavered back and forth between making the Character a stalwart sorcerer, which would have added 10 HP.
Also, I don't think halflings qualify for Otherworldly. It is a regional feat from Forgotten Realms, and only a few races qualify. I know elves are one. The feat has been reprinted at least once, and I'm not sure what else qualifies.
I thought you could qualify with only 4 ranks in knowledge: local. That said, I think it is better to go with human to avoid discussion about different kinds of legalities.
The wraith is potentially a big problem for this character. Several Magic Missiles could take it out easily, but it is likely to win initiative and also to get a surprize round. It could potentially take out the halfling before he even got to do anything. The elf I posted had a higher strength, so he'd probably beat it, but he'd have to go get someone to cure his Strength damage for him before continuing. Also, I doubt I'd prepare a bunch of Magic Missiles unless I knew I'd face something like this. A crossbow with Magic Weapon cast on it would take it out eventually, though.
True. I think the "bypass the encounters you can't win" strategy is the way to go.
I do agree with the others that using a Warblade for the melee in this "contest" is kind of cheating. :P I don't think anyone doubts that Tome of Battle characters are competative with casters at least through the lower levels, and mid levels if built well.
As far as pure combat goes, I agree.
As far as the ability to have utility and take advantage of movement/invisibility, etc. a caster is still tops.
Best,
David
stuff
Polymorph. I use level 7 for a reason. At 7 melees become redundant. Before that, you're not replacable while the wizard uses sleep. 7+ there is no reason noncasters are needed in a party. Before that, both have their place. After melee is just there because of preferance.
7+ is a spellcaster's game.
Overwhelming exception.
If he was in a form that had a flight speed faster than the manticore, after the manticore expended it's ranged attacks, then it could just be a game of shoot and fly out of manticore's range.
But he wasn't. Yes, it would be interesting to see the round-by-round breakdown to see if this works. Or if he runs out of potions of healing.
Well, if I was flying or burrowing, I would win initiative, and wouldn't be grappled.
That said, there are very few material components of note, and there is no reason he couldn't travel with them in his off hand.
Possibly on the alternate forms of movement. Would this mean you would bypass the encounter? Otherwise, how are you winning initiative? Is it a case of "I poke my head up, do I see anything?" and hope for the surprise to duck back? How are you seeing to burrow? Remember, the mini-adventure did not specify that we had a map of the cave with a X for the treasure.
Re: material components. Unsure if that works, in one hand, you have the shield, the other hand needs to be free to cast spells. If you have a handful of material components, does that work like that? (mental image of flinging the wrong material component)
Ah, darn. You're right. Keep in mind that it only has a 50% chance of hitting me, and I have a 50% chance of saving. So there is only 1 chance in 4 that it does an average of 4 CON damage.
In that case either I cast alter self and burrow away, or I cast invisibility, and hide from it, bypassing this encounter.
Bypassing the encounter is not the same as defeating it ...
Actually, I got confused, and was thinking I was facing a large rug rather than a huge rug.
In this case, I'd only survive if a lenient DM allowed a casting of grease to help allow me escape, and then move away.
Although, once again, any alternate form of movement (burrow, fly) and it would have been bypassed.
If you were grappled by the rug, and cast grease on yourself, per the spell you would get a +10 bonus to escape artist checks or attempts to resist/escape a grapple. Unfortunately, this doesn't bring your grapple attempt up high enough to escape this (and assumes that you have your material components in hand)
Bypassing the encounter is not the same as defeating it ...
I was (rather obviously) being a little lazy with the bookkeeping. I have a few potions of healing. Assume that I always take a potion anytime I need to.
What I meant by this last one, was that your total hps are 24. If you did not use potions to bring yourself up to almost max (23/24), then you were killed. Note how in my posts, I do not bring myself up to max each time, I bring myself up close enough.
Btw, I didn't see any potions listed. I assume that is part of the stash of gold you have unspent?
Best case, you ran from (bypassed) three out of five encounters.
Worst case, you lost from several encounters.
This is not a good example of the overpoweredness of casters. Please do not take this the wrong way. I like what you did -- and would really like to see a caster like that in my party. Talk about a lot of versatility. However, for sheer power, I am not convinced.
Polymorph. I use level 7 for a reason. At 7 melees become redundant. Before that, you're not replacable while the wizard uses sleep. 7+ there is no reason noncasters are needed in a party. Before that, both have their place. After melee is just there because of preferance.
7+ is a spellcaster's game.
Overwhelming exception.
Maybe you could explain this to me with specifics?
My Major Point:
Well, if you have a combination of flight, burrowing and invisibility, you can also choose to engage the encounter on your own terms.
You pretty much are always able to buff for the threat you see, and you can almost always "win" initiative.
What is meant by "win" initiative? Since win is in quotes, I assume that it means something other than the normal DM: "Ok guys, roll initiative"?
My point was that if we let a wizardly caster choose spells appropriately, that would be even stronger ... I didn't go that route because then it became more questionable.
Believe it or not, the original premise someone posted was that we were made aware of a dragon. If the wizard is able to spend X days preparing, then more power to him.
Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
Meyer, I don't think presenting such a build at this point of the thread will help the discussion. For one, we're short of casters, in fact all the casters presented so far are either incomplete, incorrect, or incompetent.
Is this normal, or do all the people who are good optimizers just ignore this thread?
Well, it is definitely time consuming. I certainly recognise PhaedrusXY as someone who's excellent. ArcherPwr is very good as well.
However, I think the people who are interested enough to post builds and play through them are merely "ok".
I'd call myself an armchair optimizer.
Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
For now, we're lacking "brute force". We're lacking encounters that are truly challenging. At the very least we could've used MM3 monsters; we're also lacking environment that is useful or at least fair to the monsters. When two builds defeat the same encounter, why not avoid arguing about costs, which, by the way, are insignificant to the treasure gained, and progress to harder and harder encounters until one of the builds drops?
Um, the way I see it ... these encounters are very challenging. No caster has yet to beat the CR 5 version of it. I don't see the point in raising the bar when it seems to already be too high.
And, I did progress from CR2 to CR5. Without dropping. Even versus a creature immune to weapon damage (which if I had to refight it, it would have been much easier after trading out the weapon focus for the burning blade) ... and ones with 50% miss chances ... and autograpplers ... and ones that ATE MY GEAR (2 weapons).
I am unsure what else I need to do to prove that noncasters are not underpowered compared to spellcasters at low levels. (My opinion/stance is that casters < noncasters level 1-7, casters = noncasters levels 8-14, casters > noncasters levels 15+)
I would argue that the alter-self sorcerer did beat it (but for a few rather minor modifications).
Also keep in mind - it beat the encounter "playing stupid".
Finally, a question ... do you guys think the build should have played with a Divine Companion? (for more Saves and AC)? Or/And a Stalwart Sorcerer ... that would add 10 HP, as well as give a weapon focus feat?
2nd major point:
I think "normal" non casters are slightly underpowered compared to "normal" casters (especially druids and clerics) from levels 1-5.
A tricked out non caster using multiple dips that are front-loaded, and ToB is on a fair playing field with a tricked out caster at lower levels.
At level 6 I think the Druid wins (wildshape + natural spell) - although the 4th level fleshraker helps a lot, and might mean that the druid also wins at 4th level (but not at 5th?). At level 7 the wizard and Kobold Sorcerer win (polymorph).
Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
Which brings us back to problem one: no powerful caster build at hand, no point to buff the encounters further, no point to post new noncaster builds.
Which is sad really ...
Well, the question remains, can we make a powerful caster? I'd be interested to see someone run the mini-adventure with a buffed 5th level druid with Fleshraker.
Also, do you agree about the breakpoints? Druid wins at 6th level? Wizard/Sorcerer win at 7th level?
Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
I hope the pro-casters stop leaving the thread and defend their position with facts. Facts in complete character lists, not blank statesments as "my incatatrix makes any noncaster useless by level 7, but I won't even post my spells for the day".
I agree.
I agree too. That is why I finished the write-up of the build and ran it. So that we could begin to have more concrete discussion.
Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
In the meantime, I'm off to win yet another PvP arena
Good luck.
FYI: I have literally never ran a combat before - that is actually why I posted here - to get some experience. Definitely it is a learning experience. Example: newfound respect for grappling ;)
Also, regarding the sorc build, ray of clumsiness inflicts a penalty to Dex, not Dex damage, which therefore doesn't stack with itself - and I believe it has the clause similar to ray of enfeeblement, that it can't take Dex below 1.
Drat - you are right. I'll have to look into this one some more. While In most cases I could just swap rays of stupidity, but this would require both more spells, and higher level spells, meaning that I would have to use an extended rope trick to recover spells, before continuing the adventure.
Give me some time to try to find a better alternative.
Best,
David
But he wasn't. Yes, it would be interesting to see the round-by-round breakdown to see if this works. Or if he runs out of potions of healing.
I mean that with very high natural armor, the manticore will only hit with 1 of it's spikes. After that, it has to attack in melee.
Round 1-4
Manticore attacks with spikes ... a total of 1 hits
I attack with bolts ... a total of 1.5 hits. Also, I always make sure that I am 60' away.
Rounds 5+
Manticore makes a double move to come into melee range. In my fast moving flying form, I fly 60' away (move action) and then attack with a bolt.
Etc. I don't remember what it was called, but I think it is a WoW strategy.
Possibly on the alternate forms of movement. Would this mean you would bypass the encounter? Otherwise, how are you winning initiative? Is it a case of "I poke my head up, do I see anything?" and hope for the surprise to duck back? How are you seeing to burrow? Remember, the mini-adventure did not specify that we had a map of the cave with a X for the treasure.
5' step - I poke my head out of the rock
Standard action - I look around
Move action - I hide in the rock again and move on for a while.
Because of the funny way time works in dnd, the chances of someone being able to attack me are very minimal.
Re: material components. Unsure if that works, in one hand, you have the shield, the other hand needs to be free to cast spells. If you have a handful of material components, does that work like that? (mental image of flinging the wrong material component)
What shield? I never listed that as equipment, and didn't include it in AC.
Also, I don't see why you couldn't have a small handful of material components ... ?
Bypassing the encounter is not the same as defeating it ...
Re: Wraith
Well, with the burrowing trick, I could:
5' step - peak out
Standard action - attack wraith
Move action - move out of the way.
Pretty soon the wraith would figure out what was happening, and would also be hiding in the rock - stalemate.
Different version - I alter self into a Spinagon, with fly speed 120'
Round 1
I fly away 120'
Wraith double moves to catch me.
Round 2+
I attack wraith and fly away 120'
Wraith double moves to catch me
etc.
Wraith Dead
If you were grappled by the rug, and cast grease on yourself, per the spell you would get a +10 bonus to escape artist checks or attempts to resist/escape a grapple. Unfortunately, this doesn't bring your grapple attempt up high enough to escape this (and assumes that you have your material components in hand)
My instinct is to say that I wavered back and forth between Stalwart Sorcerer and not. I never really used the Invisibility spell - if I did take Stalwart Sorcerer, that would give me an extra 10 HP needed.
Bypassing the encounter is not the same as defeating it ...
Re: Rug
Likewise, when I talked about being able to bypass it (with burrowing or flying) that doesn't only mean that I can bypass it. It also means that I can take advantage of my extra mobility to plink it to death from afar. See the above examples.
What I meant by this last one, was that your total hps are 24. If you did not use potions to bring yourself up to almost max (23/24), then you were killed. Note how in my posts, I do not bring myself up to max each time, I bring myself up close enough.
Btw, I didn't see any potions listed. I assume that is part of the stash of gold you have unspent?
I listed potions shortly after I posted the build (it was an edit a few minutes later). Yes, that was part of the stash of gold. The stash of gold was meant to represent "normal" stuff. Plus a few cool items that would not be used in the encounter.
Best case, you ran from (bypassed) three out of five encounters.
Worst case, you lost from several encounters.
I would argue that best case, I won 5 out of 5 encountesr
Worst case, I used a cheap mobility trick to win 3 of the 5.
This is not a good example of the overpoweredness of casters. Please do not take this the wrong way. I like what you did -- and would really like to see a caster like that in my party. Talk about a lot of versatility. However, for sheer power, I am not convinced.
Thank you.
And the truth is that so far, I think that the non-caster is definitely winning
I definitely would need to make 3 changes, however:
1) Halfling -> Human (makes it a more legal build)
2) Stalwart Sorcerer (adds a needed 10 extra HP at the cost of 1 spell known that I didn't use anyway).
3) Find a replacement for Ray of Clumsiness (not yet done).
Do you have other thoughts? I think issue 3) is a rather major one, but I'm reasonably convinced that the threats can be genuinely overcome by the caster ... do you agree? Do you have any thoughts for a replacement for Ray of Clumsiness?
If so, how do we think the builds compare to each other in terms of scalability (higher level threats) and versatility? (Traps, many weak threats, spellcasting threats, etc.)
EDIT: In retrospect, Mirror image would have also been a good spell instead of invisibility, since this contest demands not that I be able to bypass threats but rather defeat them ... and this would have helped with the Snake, the Wraith, and the Dragon.
What is meant by "win" initiative? Since win is in quotes, I assume that it means something other than the normal DM: "Ok guys, roll initiative"?
"Win initiative" meant being able to peak out of the ground, determine what the situation was, and start far enough away from the threat so that I could buff appropriately, and then attack first by starting out at greater range.
Alternatively it meant poking the head out of the ground repeatedly from different spots over many minutes. Eventually the enemy will have it's back turned.
Alternatively, it meant flying over a non-flying creature, so that it can't attack me - my attack goes first, "winning initiative" in some sense.
Best,
David
Maybe you could explain this to me with specifics?
Assume a 7th level Wizard. If there were a way to get a feat at 7th level, we'd also have minor shapeshift, for a bunch of Extra HP as needed.
Pre-Buff:
Stone Skin
Mage Armor
1st round:
Move back
Cast solid fog to keep enemies at bay for a few rounds
Post Buff 1:
Mirror Image (probably will ignore the 1st round worth of attacks)
Post Buff 2:
Polymorph into Remorhaz:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm
If we hit with bite and grapple => 70 points of damage 1st round.
Admittedly, I was being very generous with spell slots, but you effectively have DR 10, and you have mirror image up, making you very tough.
Best,
David
I mean that with very high natural armor, the manticore will only hit with 1 of it's spikes. After that, it has to attack in melee.
Round 1-4
Manticore attacks with spikes ... a total of 1 hits
I attack with bolts ... a total of 1.5 hits. Also, I always make sure that I am 60' away.
You are assuming you have infinite open space to maneuver. Wasn't this in a dungeon? That tends to mean small rooms and 10' ceilings. Very bad things for people trying to avoid melee.
5' step - I poke my head out of the rock
Standard action - I look around
Move action - I hide in the rock again and move on for a while.
This simply can't be done, you can't take a 5' step and a move action the same round.
Additional interesting fact from the srd:
A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
That animate rug cannot be hit by most of the spells that have been used against it.
Dragonblooded Neraph Warmage 5
lots of fun .... should be interesting
:D
You are assuming you have infinite open space to maneuver. Wasn't this in a dungeon? That tends to mean small rooms and 10' ceilings. Very bad things for people trying to avoid melee.
The manticore is met outside the dungeon (it took the place of the blink dog) per poster of mini-adventure.
I would argue that the alter-self sorcerer did beat it (but for a few rather minor modifications).
Also keep in mind - it beat the encounter "playing stupid".
Lets examine the encounters -- using the character posted in post 233 and the most recent posted tactics
OH ... sorry, the shield comment was actually for the cleric build not you. My mistake.
Ok, if the character posted has up the 10 min/level spell on the way to the mini-adventure, then yes, his AC is high enough for the win for encounter 1. It wouldn't quite work the way you say it would (no crossbow as you have no hands, etc) but it would still work.
You then mention burrowing
Encounter 2: Snake
You pop your head out as you mention. DM says "Roll spot check/initiative"
The snake grapples you for the win.
Encounter 3: Wraith
Your current tactics are to cut-and-run.
If this works, it is a loss.
Encounter 4: Rug
You pop your head out as you mention. DM says "You get attacked by the rug".
The rug grapples you for the win.
Encounter 5: Dragon
You pop your head out as you mention. DM says "Roll for initiative"
You have previously used 2 2nd level spells
Assuming you are at full hps.
Round 1: Breathes on you (15 is the number I think you mentioned). You are at 9 hps. (you alter self into something with a high natural armor class that can cast spells)
Round 2: attack or something (misses) (cast ray of stupidity)
Round 3: Breathes on you (7 is the number I think you mentioned). You are at 2 hps (cast ray of stupidity)
Round 4: Attack or something (cast ray of stupidity for the win)
If you miss (or fail a concentration check, or .... ) a single ray of stupidity, then you lose.
So, at best you win 2 encounters, ran from 1 encounter, and died in 2 encounters. This is not a win in my book.
Did I error in this?
Finally, a question ... do you guys think the build should have played with a Divine Companion? (for more Saves and AC)? Or/And a Stalwart Sorcerer ... that would add 10 HP, as well as give a weapon focus feat?
Divine companion or Spell Shield -- both use up a lot of spells. Do you have enough to spend that way? Stalwart Sorcerers ability gives you abilities that take no resources to use.
2nd major point:
I think "normal" non casters are slightly underpowered compared to "normal" casters (especially druids and clerics) from levels 1-5.
A tricked out non caster using multiple dips that are front-loaded, and ToB is on a fair playing field with a tricked out caster at lower levels.
Why do people bring up multi-classing and ToB as points against on the build I posted? This is a caster vs noncaster comparison and multiclassing is one of the advantages of noncasters.
I took one level of a ToB class how does that level the playing field? Are they that overpowered?
Now, when you say "normal" do you mean single-classed builds? Is an otherworldly (forgotten realms regional feat, that technically, being a regional feat is only available if you came from that area (but, for the sake of this thread in the character optimization boards, is legal)) sorcerer "normal"?
Just trying to get an understanding.
Assume a 7th level Wizard. If there were a way to get a feat at 7th level, we'd also have minor shapeshift, for a bunch of Extra HP as needed.
Pre-Buff:
Stone Skin
Mage Armor
1st round:
Move back
Cast solid fog to keep enemies at bay for a few rounds
Post Buff 1:
Mirror Image (probably will ignore the 1st round worth of attacks)
Post Buff 2:
Polymorph into Remorhaz:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm
If we hit with bite and grapple => 70 points of damage 1st round.
Admittedly, I was being very generous with spell slots, but you effectively have DR 10, and you have mirror image up, making you very tough.
Best,
David
Thanks for this attempt at explaining, but with this just being a partial build, it is ignored. You don't have a full spell list, equipment, feats, etc. This would have some of the same problems as the sorcerer who went through the cave.
As written, I do not know how he could have made it through the lower level caves (locust swarm for instance).
For the Wraith:
Attack 1: I auto-miss (50% hit chance)
Attack 2: I do weighted damage (100%)
Attack 3: I auto-miss (150% hit chance)
Attack 4: I do weighted damage, killing it.
Should Attacks 1 & 3 also somehow calculate your attempt to even hit it in the first place? It does have an armor class 15 after all.
If a character (not yours) is attacking with a +4 v. AC 15 incorporeal creature, he needs to actually hit it in the first place before calculating the incorporeal miss chance.
Even with a +14 to hit, that's still a flat 5% miss chance prior to the 50% miss chance. It may not matter much, but you might as well represent it correctly. Think of it as leading by example.
Since we're assuming that 1 min/level buffs last long enough to do the entire dungeon, then Mirror Image and Shield should certainly be things the mage uses. Even if the thing tries to grapple him, it will very likely hit an image. Same goes for the rug, snake, and wraith's touch attacks. I'd also use Magic Weapon instead of paying the cash for a real magic weapon.
He might need a few scrolls to avoid running out of spells, but scribing scrolls is cheap, and he has the feat. Even a scroll of Alter Self at caster level 5 only costs 125 gp and 10 XP.
He also doesn't need a standard action to "look around" while burrowing to scout. Spot checks don't normally require an action. Move action to stick his head out, automatic Spot check, Move action to go back into the ground. Unless the enemy knows he's there, and has readied an action against him, there is no way it gets to attack him.
Again, I don't know why DavidWL used a sorcerer. The common opinion (which I certainly hold) on here is that they are mechanically inferior to wizards.
If I have time in the next few days, I'll write up the wizard at 5th. I have no doubt I can build one that can easily beat all these encounters. I really don't have time for this, though.
Should Attacks 1 & 3 also somehow calculate your attempt to even hit it in the first place? It does have an armor class 15 after all.
If a character (not yours) is attacking with a +4 v. AC 15 incorporeal creature, he needs to actually hit it in the first place before calculating the incorporeal miss chance.
Even with a +14 to hit, that's still a flat 5% miss chance prior to the 50% miss chance. It may not matter, but you might as well represent it correctly.
Otto,
Remember, I am not sure what you are getting at?
As I posted multiple times on this thread, I use weighted average for determining damage (average damage * hit chance)
For things like miss chances (different than attack rolls) / trips / saves / destroyed equipment / etc ... I accumulate percentage.
This means that I don't bother to roll to hit on rounds that I suffer the miss chance. (technically out of order, but since the two events are unrelated there is no difference in saying "I would deal 20 damage if I hit (weighted average) but I miss (50% miss chance)" and saying "I miss (50% miss chance)" -- basically, it is more work for me to calculate the damage/etc (especially when I have to redo my bonuses each round depending on which attack method I am using) -- which gets tossed anyway.
So ... are you requesting that instead of me missing the 1st and 3rd, you would rather I do the following (damage *hit chance * connect chance) -- so that each hit deals damage? You realize (for me at least) that will result in more damage inflicted by me, as usually my attacks are usually done in descending strength order.
Otto,
Remember, I am not sure what you are getting at?
As I posted multiple times on this thread, I use weighted average for determining damage (average damage * hit chance)
For things like miss chances (different than attack rolls) / trips / saves / destroyed equipment / etc ... I accumulate percentage.
This means that I don't bother to roll to hit on rounds that I suffer the miss chance. (technically out of order, but since the two events are unrelated there is no difference in saying "I would deal 20 damage if I hit (weighted average) but I miss (50% miss chance)" and saying "I miss (50% miss chance)" -- basically, it is more work for me to calculate the damage/etc (especially when I have to redo my bonuses each round depending on which attack method I am using) -- which gets tossed anyway.
So ... are you requesting that instead of me missing the 1st and 3rd, you would rather I do the following (damage *hit chance * connect chance) -- so that each hit deals damage? You realize (for me at least) that will result in more damage inflicted by me, as usually my attacks are usually done in descending strength order.
Actually, it looks like you didn't calculate the to hit roll at all on the rounds you decided the incorporeal miss chance was going to make you miss anyway. If you decide to calculate it, then you're instead hitting on rounds 2 and 5.
I just don't see how ignoring the 5% miss chance on rounds 2 and 4 the way you did is best representing the actual die rolls.
Your explanation is attempting to dismiss how the 5% miss chance from the attack roll affects the cumulative miss chance you're using from the incorporeal affect. In other words, it brings your cumulative miss chance from incorporeal down below 50%, meaning you get to use hit on rounds 2 and 5, not on rounds 2 and 4.
Why do people bring up multi-classing and ToB as points against on the build I posted? This is a caster vs noncaster comparison and multiclassing is one of the advantages of noncasters.
I took one level of a ToB class how does that level the playing field? Are they that overpowered?
Just trying to get an understanding.
I think most people aren't referring to ToB when they are talking about caster versus non caster power levels. If you include ToB, it will absolutely shift the point where clear caster advantage in combat is reached by some levels, I'm not sure exactly how far. ToB appeared to be an attempt to make non-casters equal with casters.
The mid level caster still comes out ahead in ability to react differently to different environments, by changing spell selection, crafting, etc.
Again, I don't know why DavidWL used a sorcerer. The common opinion (which I certainly hold) on here is that they are mechanically inferior to wizards.
1. The sorcerer build is easier. No debate about how much gold would have been sunk into the wizard's spell book for spells that he didn't memorize that day.
2. The sorcerer build is stable from day to day. The wizard's huge power advantage is based in large part on foreknowledge of what he is going to be fighting. A good wizard would be more likely to react to these situations by using scouting spells (invisibility, clairvoyance) and then coming back the next day with spells hand picked to kill his targets. That uses the wizard's powers to best advantage, but is a crummy way to demonstrate caster superiority.
In other words, the wizard is probably always better in a campaign. The sorcerer in many cases wins if you drop him unprepared in front of a hole and tell him to explore it.
Etc. I don't remember what it was called, but I think it is a WoW strategy.
Kiting. And it originated as a regular tactic in Everquest i believe.
5' step - I poke my head out of the rock
Standard action - I look around
Move action - I hide in the rock again and move on for a while.
Can't move twice in a turn. The free 5ft is only an option if you don't otherwise move during that turn.
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5ft step ether before, during or after the action.
Different version - I alter self into a Spinagon, with fly speed 120'
Round 1
I fly away 120'
Wraith double moves to catch me.
Round 2+
I attack wraith and fly away 120'
Wraith double moves to catch me
etc.
Wraith Dead
After the first round it couldn't catch you, it would hide in the rock. if you feel it's a fair tactic for you, it's a fair tactic for it too. if you move on from this point, your next fight will have the wraith join in. Thats the problem with bypassing encounters, they're still there and if they noticed you, they can follow.
PS: I didn't get a look at the build, but what you using to attack the wraith? (or can you direct me to the build?)
My instinct is to say that I wavered back and forth between Stalwart Sorcerer and not. I never really used the Invisibility spell - if I did take Stalwart Sorcerer, that would give me an extra 10 HP needed.
No DM would take this as an excuse. you'd be stuck with the character you built and played to that point. This is an example of one of the many impractical arguments that have garnered the "casters are overpowered" mentality. People assume casters can do everything, but any single build really can't. But since a build is exceedingly rare to actually get in these debates (as I'm sure you've noticed), nobody ever catches on to this and the exaggeration of a casters power continues. same thing is happening with the tactics. both of the caster run through's that have been done have merely assumed, because they are casters they can win. nether has done a round by round and shown how they win (this post I'm replying to is the closest).
Re: Rug
Likewise, when I talked about being able to bypass it (with burrowing or flying) that doesn't only mean that I can bypass it. It also means that I can take advantage of my extra mobility to plink it to death from afar. See the above examples.
Do you normally encounter animated rugs outdoors or in vast cavernous locals? if not, then your superior movement is unlikely available for this encounter.
I would argue that best case, I won 5 out of 5 encountesr
Worst case, I used a cheap mobility trick to win 3 of the 5.
but you didn't account for the time (and spell used) for shifting into whichever form you used for the fight, and you didn't acknowledge likely environment (only one I called you on was the rug, but the wraith is likely found indoors as well. If not, then it would be found at night, in the darkness, where your visibility is low enough that moving far enough to get away from it's charge results in being unable to see it.)
"Win initiative" meant being able to peak out of the ground, determine what the situation was, and start far enough away from the threat so that I could buff appropriately, and then attack first by starting out at greater range.
This would require ranks in spot to be truly effective (you may have them, not sure which build is being used. It also wouldn't help against the rug unless you had some way of knowing it was animated. The wraith is also a little iffy with it's +11 hide.
Actually, it looks like you didn't calculate the to hit roll at all on the rounds you decided the incorporeal miss chance was going to make you miss anyway. If you decide to calculate it, then you're instead hitting on rounds 2 and 5.
I just don't see how ignoring the 5% miss chance on rounds 2 and 4 the way you did is best representing the actual die rolls.
Your explanation is attempting to dismiss how the 5% miss chance from the attack roll affects the cumulative miss chance you're using from the incorporeal affect. In other words, it brings your cumulative miss chance from incorporeal down below 50%, meaning you get to use hit on rounds 2 and 5, not on rounds 2 and 4.
Ok, let me try to explain differently.
Events like grapple / incorporal miss chance / invisibility / blindness / trip etc ...
I accumulate percentages. Period. When it reaches a certain threshold then the action activates.
Events like damage. I do a weighted average. This in no way, shape, or form -- is affected by (or affects) the accumulated percentages.
As such, the 5% miss chance from attack rolls is not affecting the accumulating of percents. They are two completely independent (and unrelated) events.
The only way to have the 5% chance affect the 50% chance and be valid, would be to change the weighted average to include it (damage * hit chance (95%) * incorporal miss chance (50%)). Using this equation, I do more damage to the enemy as stated above, as earlier attacks deal more damage.
BUT ... lets look at things your way -- and lets only assume a 80% hit chance
40% chance first attack (80% chance * 50%) = total 40
40% chance second attack (80% chance * 50%) = total 80
40% chance third attack (80% chance * 50%) = total 120
40% chance fourth attack (80% chance * 50%) = total 160
What is the difference here? the first and third still fail as under threshold, the second and fourth still pass threshold.
I do not see the benefit for this, and it is mechanically invalid. When you associate the hit chance with this miss chance, you cannot later use the weighted average, as you are applying it twice.
I think most people aren't referring to ToB when they are talking about caster versus non caster power levels. If you include ToB, it will absolutely shift the point where clear caster advantage in combat is reached by some levels, I'm not sure exactly how far. ToB appeared to be an attempt to make non-casters equal with casters.
The mid level caster still comes out ahead in ability to react differently to different environments, by changing spell selection, crafting, etc.
ToB has been over a whole year. It is a noncaster resource. To exclude it is shifting things away from the power of noncasters.
Even if they don't hit a Mirror Image, I think they'll all still have to roll a 20 to hit him, except the wraith. For it, he'll rely on Mirror Image, and blast it with Magic Missiles, finishing it off with his guisarme if necessary. He will try to keep it away from him with Stand Still (via attacks of opportunity) as much as possible, tumbling to move away when necessary.
He uses Sudden Still to cast Blink if he is grappled. He blows his Psionic Focus to "take 15" on the concentration check, automatically passing it. He uses Protection from Energy: Acid to negate the dragon's breath weapon (he's supposed to know about the dragon).
He just uses the form of a Dwarf Ancestor the whole time. He has a scroll if he needs a different form for mobility, etc.
dragonborn fire elf wizard 5 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14 (18 buffed)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 24 (+1d10+5)
AC 36 (10+4armor+18nat+1dex+4shield+1defl-1flaw-1size), 18 vs. incorporeal touch attacks
Touch AC w/Scintillating Scales 27 (35 vs. incorporeal touch)
Attacks: +1 guisarme +6 (2d4+6)
Flaw: Vulnerable (-1 AC)
Feats: Otherworldly, Wild Talent, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still, Sudden Still Spell
Skills: Concentration +10, Tumble +7 (4cc+1dex+2item)
Equipment: +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme, light crossbow and bolts, 10 potions of CLW (500 gp), scrolls of Mage Hand and Magic Weapon (~20 gp total, self-crafted), scrolls of Alter Self and Scintillating Scales (CL5, 125 gp each, self-crafted), MW tumble tool
Spells prepared:
0th: Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Message
1st: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile x3
2nd: Alter Self, False Life, Mirror Image, Bull's Strength
3rd: Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch, Blink
Bat familiar: has +14 hide, blindsense, and can fly. He uses it to scout ahead.
Do note: this guy is acting like a solo tank, due to the nature of this challenge. In a party, he would probably prepare different spells, and rely more on his allies for some of his defenses. He'd still use the guisarme and run around as a dwarf ancestor, though, making him not so "squishy".
Here is a quick update. His familiar scouts ahead a bit, and the mage uses Message and/or his empathic link to keep in contact with it. The manticore only hits him on a 20 with ranged attacks. If it, or anything else, tries to close to melee, he gets an AoO, since he has 20 foot reach. He can use Stand Still on this if he wants, to halt their movement. Unless they look particularly dangerous (the wraith, and snake), he probably just hits them.
Even if they don't hit a Mirror Image, I think they'll all still have to roll a 20 to hit him, except the wraith. For it, he'll rely on Mirror Image, and blast it with Magic Missiles, finishing it off with his guisarme if necessary. He will try to keep it away from him with Stand Still (via attacks of opportunity) as much as possible, tumbling to move away when necessary.
He uses Sudden Still to cast Blink if he is grappled. He blows his Psionic Focus to "take 15" on the concentration check, automatically passing it. He uses Protection from Energy: Acid to negate the dragon's breath weapon (he's supposed to know about the dragon).
He just uses the form of a Dwarf Ancestor the whole time. He has a scroll if he needs a different form for mobility, etc.
dragonborn fire elf wizard 5 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14 (18 buffed)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 24 (+1d10+5)
AC 36 (10+4armor+18nat+1dex+4shield+1defl-1flaw-1size), 18 vs. incorporeal touch attacks
Attacks: +1 guisarme +7 (2d4+6)
Flaw: Vulnerable (-1 AC)
Feats: Otherworldly, Wild Talent, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still, Sudden Still Spell
Skills: Concentration +10, Tumble +7 (4cc+1dex+2item)
Equipment: +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme, 10 potions of CLW, scroll of Mage Hand, scroll of Alter Self (CL5), MW tumble tool
Spells prepared:
0th: Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Message
1st: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile x3
2nd: Alter Self, False Life, Mirror Image, Bull's Strength
3rd: Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch, Blink
Bat familiar: has +14 hide, blindsense, and can fly. He uses it to scout ahead.
Let me know if this build is ready for me to pick apart. I am currently assuming it is not.
Let me know if this build is ready for me to pick apart. I am currently assuming it is not.
Go for it. I'd say he probably would cast False Life, Message, Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, and Alter Self before heading to the cave. So he'd have AC 32, and +4 to hit when he faced the manticore.
He'd cast Shield, Mirror Image, and Bull's Strength right before entering it, and have the stats listed.
He should have a bit of warning on some encounters due to his familiar scouting ahead. I'm going to assume that a bat flying around in a cave wouldn't draw much attention, unless the DM is really evil.
Hmm... I should probably try to fit Combat Reflexes in there, but that would require another flaw and a boost to his Dex. It's also not very "wizardly". :P
Prepping a Wraithstrike probably wouldn't be a bad idea, either. I also didn't check the wealth, but I think it will be below the limit.
Go for it. I'd say he probably would cast False Life, Message, Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, and Alter Self before heading to the cave. So he'd have AC 32, and +4 to hit when he faced the manticore.
He'd cast Shield, Mirror Image, and Bull's Strength right before entering it, and have the stats listed.
He should have a bit of warning on some encounters due to his familiar scouting ahead. I'm going to assume that a bat flying around in a cave wouldn't draw much attention, unless the DM is really evil.
Hmm... I should probably try to fit Combat Reflexes in there, but that would require another flaw and a boost to his Dex. It's also not very "wizardly". :P
Prepping a Wraithstrike probably wouldn't be a bad idea, either. I also didn't check the wealth, but I think it will be below the limit.
I don't know how much money you had left over, but consider getting a scroll of Scintillating Scales. I know that if I were playing a solo wizard using Alter Self I'd want a way to get a massive touch AC in a pinch.
I don't know how much money you had left over, but consider getting a scroll of Scintillating Scales. I know that if I were playing a solo wizard using Alter Self I'd want a way to get a massive touch AC in a pinch.
I haven't bought a book in years. I am not that familiar with that spell, beyond having seen it mentioned once or twice on the boards. Really, because of my lack of new books, I'm sure I'm subpar as an optimizer, compared to someone who still keeps up with the newest releases.
You say a scroll. Is it higher than 3rd level? I'd rather avoid using a bunch of expendables that are higher level than he could actually craft himself. That just leads into silly scenarios where everyone spends most of their wealth on consumables, which you'd probably never see in a game, because noone could afford to play like that.
Edit: Found it online. 2nd level abjuration, 1 min/level, turns natural armor into a deflection bonus. Yeah, that would be a great spell for him. Probably better than Mirror Image, since it would make his Touch AC so high that probably nothing would be able to hit it without a natural 20, including the wraith and the monsters trying to start grapples.
This just highlights one of the advantages of spellcasters, especially clerics and druids. With every splatbook that comes out, they get stronger due to having more options in the form of new spells. Clerics and druids don't even have to do anything to gain this benefit.
So yeah, since we're going for "overpowered", let's add a scroll of that. If it breaks the bank, we can drop the Alter Self scroll I had listed. We could also drop the Ring of Protection, as it will overlap, and even the +1 guisarme, as scrolls of Magic Weapon would also work there, when he needs it to beat DR.
What's the wealth for a level 5 character, anyway? I don't have my books handy, and that isn't in the SRD.
Here is a quick update. His familiar scouts ahead a bit, and the mage uses Message and/or his empathic link to keep in contact with it. The manticore only hits him on a 20 with ranged attacks. If it, or anything else, tries to close to melee, he gets an AoO, since he has 20 foot reach. He can use Stand Still on this if he wants, to halt their movement. Unless they look particularly dangerous (the wraith, and snake), he probably just hits them.
Your familiar's +14 hide will help it survive a little, but it's +6 move silent will likely give it away, the snake still has +9 spot and listen, and also has scent. The wraiths hide is high enough to avoid immediate notice and it's +12 spot/listen may give it time to prepare for you (no ordinary bat would come within 30 ft of it to notice it with blindsence, but since it's not an animal, the unnatural aura doesn't apply). The rug would likely go completely unnoticed (both ways).
Snake has about a 40% success at making it's save against stand still, assuming you hit it and do average damage. Wraith you have a very good chance against... if you hit it. rug is an easy stand still, so long as you hit. (Speaking of hitting, are you accounting for the -4 non proficiency of the guisarme or did you get around that somewhere that i didn't notice?)
Even if they don't hit a Mirror Image, I think they'll all still have to roll a 20 to hit him, except the wraith. For it, he'll rely on Mirror Image, and blast it with Magic Missiles, finishing it off with his guisarme if necessary. He will try to keep it away from him with Stand Still (via attacks of opportunity) as much as possible, tumbling to move away when necessary.
This mirror image doesn't refresh it's copies (like the greater version) and you only have one available. by the time you get past the wraith, they'd surely be all used up (more likely during the wraith fight).
Oh yah, the wraith can get around your threat range by going underground and coming up right next to you. It would then get an AoO when you moved away (to get it back into threat range).
He uses Sudden Still to cast Blink if he is grappled. He blows his Psionic Focus to "take 15" on the concentration check, automatically passing it. He uses Protection from Energy: Acid to negate the dragon's breath weapon (he's supposed to know about the dragon).
There are actually 2 grappler's, the snake can get through your stand still, so this will likely get blown on it. the rug will likely catch you by surprise.
this and the mirror image are why it's expected for you to round by round the challenge. you can say you have the solution, but if you only have it a limited number of times, if the problem comes up more then that limit, it becomes a significant problem. By claiming you have a solution, and then breezing over the entire challenge with an assumption, your ignoring the limit.
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dragonborn fire elf wizard 5 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Str 14 (18 buffed)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2)
HP: 24 (+1d10+5)
AC 36 (10+4armor+18nat+1dex+4shield+1defl-1flaw-1size), 18 vs. incorporeal touch attacks
Attacks: +1 guisarme +6 (2d4+6)
Flaw: Vulnerable (-1 AC)
Feats: Otherworldly, Wild Talent, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still, Sudden Still Spell
Skills: Concentration +10, Tumble +7 (4cc+1dex+2item)
Equipment: +1 ring of protection, +1 guisarme, light crossbow and bolts, 10 potions of CLW, scrolls of Mage Hand and Magic Weapon, scroll of Alter Self (CL5), MW tumble tool
Spells prepared:
0th: Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Message
1st: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile x3
2nd: Alter Self, False Life, Mirror Image, Bull's Strength
3rd: Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch, Blink
Bat familiar: has +14 hide, blindsense, and can fly. He uses it to scout ahead.
On the other hand, for the snake, the bat is a snack. It seems difficult the bat will get past the snake (scent is a killer for sneaking) and almost impossible that the bat will survive if the snake attacks it.
(Speaking of hitting, are you accounting for the -4 non proficiency of the guisarme or did you get around that somewhere that i didn't notice?)
He's an outsider, because of Otherworldly. They're proficient with all martial weapons. I mentioned this in the original, but deleted it in this updated version.
This mirror image doesn't refresh it's copies (like the greater version) and you only have one available. by the time you get past the wraith, they'd surely be all used up (more likely during the wraith fight).
I added another spell on the previous page, which increases his touch AC dramatically. He might not get hit at all during the whole challenge.
Oh yah, the wraith can get around your threat range by going underground and coming up right next to you. It would then get an AoO when you moved away (to get it back into threat range).
I put some ranks in tumble. It still probably couldn't hit him, even if he failed.
There are actually 2 grappler's, the snake can get through your stand still, so this will likely get blown on it. the rug will likely catch you by surprise.
this and the mirror image are why it's expected for you to round by round the challenge. you can say you have the solution, but if you only have it a limited number of times, if the problem comes up more then that limit, it becomes a significant problem. By claiming you have a solution, and then breezing over the entire challenge with an assumption, your ignoring the limit.
They should have a hard time hitting him with Scintillating Scales up. Sorry for the editing, but as I said, I don't buy books anymore. If I had the time, and really wanted to optimize the crap out of a wizard, you better believe I'd pour through every book available for the game, and cherry pick the best spells.
Magic misslex3 seems rather convenient. but whatever. The MW tumbling tool seems infeasible. And I don't see any method of getting proficiency with the Guisarme, but I suspect I missed something (as that seems to obvious a mistake for you to have overlooked) (PS: Your guisarme damage is 2D4+7... not +6. +6 str and +1 for magic).
He should still beat the wraith even if he has to use his melee weapon. Magic Missile is a staple 1st level spell, also. Many argue it is overpowered, due to the decent damage and autohit.
I find it amusing how many people say melee becomes obsolete (many others say non-casters, not necessarily melee. I realize this as well), and even now, it is melee thats getting through this challenge, even when done with a caster.
I say non-casters. Casters can melee just fine, and they have other things they can do.
The wraith it would, if it got close enough to the wraith to notice him (wraiths hide is better then bats spot/listen) with blindsence. Snake might attack the bat for food, but it wouldn't give the snake any forewarning. Nether would have warning of the other with regards to the rug.
Dragon, I don't know. I'd likely have it depend on how the bat reacts, but he'd likely get suspicious (that it got past the wraith) and put him on edge (especially after it left).
The bat will be flying along the ceiling. So unless they can reach him, he should be fine. Also, it's not like he's going to stick around for a chat if he sees something. So they're not going to have alot of time to examine his behavior. But yeah, if the DM wants to be a jackass, he could kill your innocent looking bat, flying around in a cave.
He's an outsider, because of Otherworldly. They're proficient with all martial weapons. I mentioned this in the original, but deleted it in this updated version.
Don't have the book, so I can't check the feat, but that seems like it's granting a little more then intended. As your getting all martial weapons for a single feat, rather then 1 weapon per feat like your supposed to. Does the feat say it gives the outsider type, or outsider traits?
I added another spell on the previous page, which increases his touch AC dramatically. He might not get hit at all during the whole challenge.
Seems like a lot of changes are being made once new problems arise. Players in real games don't have the option of redo's or time outs for rebuilds. If you can't see that all these new tweaks and the time your spending adding to the build is an example of how casters aren't always at their best in real games or how a casters build can be important too (not just claiming a caster succeeds)(they don't have the option of knowing what they'll be facing at 5th level before they pick their 1st level feats and their spells), then I don't know what to say. Yes, casters have versatility, they have great potential for power, they also have potential for making mistakes, and those mistakes can be a lot more costly then for non-casters.
I put some ranks in tumble. It still probably couldn't hit him, even if he failed.
They should have a hard time hitting him with Scintillating Scales up. Sorry for the editing, but as I said, I don't buy books anymore. If I had the time, and really wanted to optimize the crap out of a wizard, you better believe I'd pour through every book available for the game, and cherry pick the best spells.
My problem is that the editing your doing isn't an option in real games. a casters theoretical power is meaningless if it can only be pulled off with several days (real time) of preparation, foreknowledge of everything you'll be facing, and the opportunity for redo's in case you missed something. In real games, casters are still powerful, they are not anywhere near what people on these boards claim them to be without some kind of DM favoring or a complete lack of DM control (It is possible for a DM to allow his players to overwhelm him with loopholes, beneficial rules interpretations, and other similar things, if the DM doesn't know how to deal with such things).
He should still beat the wraith even if he has to use his melee weapon. Magic Missile is a staple 1st level spell, also. Many argue it is overpowered, due to the decent damage and autohit.
I don't personally see it as overpowered, I also agree with it being a staple (not for me personally, I prefer more subtle spell casters). I was just noting the use of 3 copies, when no other spell on your list had more then a single preparation, in an encounter listing that included an incorporeal being, seemed a little convenient. Sorry if it seems petty, even though I wasn't objecting to it (just noting it).
The bat will be flying along the ceiling. So unless they can reach him, he should be fine. Also, it's not like he's going to stick around for a chat if he sees something. So they're not going to have alot of time to examine his behavior. But yeah, if the DM wants to be a jackass, he could kill your innocent looking bat, flying around in a cave.
Really depends how high the ceiling is. But if it's too high, he likely won't notice the wraith, but the wraith will likely notice it (what happens then is really dependent on how things play out). I don't think anything I've mentioned with regards to your bat scouting is being a Jackass DM. In fact, if a DM didn't take those things into consideration, I'd see it as coddling the caster (protecting him from XP loss). A snake stuck in a cave would take whatever snack it could get. a wraith noticing an animal closer then 30 ft would know it's not natural. a dragon with a wraith guard seeing an animal fly in might get suspicious (or, if it was a playful kind of dragon, may want to make it a toy). a bat flying over a rug would have no reason to believe it was anything but a rug, and the rug would likewise have no reason to believe it was anything but a small animal to be ignored.
Don't have the book, so I can't check the feat, but that seems like it's granting a little more then intended. As your getting all martial weapons for a single feat, rather then 1 weapon per feat like your supposed to. Does the feat say it gives the outsider type, or outsider traits?
This is a really old debate that I don't care to rehash. People use the feat like that all the time on here.
Seems like a lot of changes are being made once new problems arise.
Look, I can do without the lecturing. Before you'd even posted your critique, someone else suggested an addition of a spell that I don't have the book for. So I added it, again before you posted any criticisms. So this wasn't an addition "after problems arose". It was a last minute change before the character was "in use". So let's just drop it. I will leave it as-is from now on.
As to the Magic Missile thing, you could replace those with anything you like, and it wouldn't matter. With the addition of Scintillating Scales, the Wraith only hits on natural 20s.
Let me know if this build is ready for me to pick apart. I am currently assuming it is not.
Go for it. I'd say he probably would cast False Life, Message, Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, and Alter Self before heading to the cave. So he'd have AC 32, and +4 to hit when he faced the manticore.
Look, I can do without the lecturing. Before you'd even posted your critique, someone else suggested an addition of a spell that I don't have the book for. So I added it, again before you posted any criticisms. So this wasn't an addition "after problems arose". It was a last minute change before the character was "in use". So let's just drop it. I will leave it as-is from now on.
You were given the opportunity to make your changes before I began my critiques (which I began writing before the scintillating scales scroll was mentioned (I take my time to attempt to check my facts on things like that. I looked for a while to try and figure out how you got guisarme proficiency)). Don't complain because I'm pointing it out now, after I began my critiques. your attempting to do the exact same thing every pro caster tries to do, your trying to assume because your a caster your infallible and always prepared/ready/capable. Keep in mind in a real game, not only can you not add an item or scroll the instant you discover it's exsistance in one of the books, but your also not going to have dozens of people helping you out and pointing to spells found in books you don't have. If I'm not mistaken, your build idea's been up for a few days, you then had the chance to make revisions and then was asked if that was your completed build to be critiqued, to which you said yes. So the one you said yes to was what got critiqued. Don't get pissy with me because I'm pointing out how the real world works differently then claims on these boards.
So the one you said yes to was what got critiqued. Don't get pissy with me because I'm pointing out how the real world works differently then claims on these boards.
But I thought the purpose of this thread was to test a claim from these boards.
If I'm not mistaken, your build idea's been up for a few days, you then had the chance to make revisions and then was asked if that was your completed build to be critiqued, to which you said yes. So the one you said yes to was what got critiqued. Don't get pissy with me because I'm pointing out how the real world works differently then claims on these boards.
I took about 5-10 minutes to update it to 5th level, mostly from the top of my head, and posted it. Someone then suggested a good addition. Noone had replied, so I added it.
And yes, you do have the option to get help from dozens of people on these boards with "real" characters. You can post your character on here before the game starts, and get suggestions. I have done it many times. That's the main purpose of this board. People know things and suggest things that I hadn't thought of, and if I like them and they are appropriate, I add them. Then I take the final product to the game, and play it. So yeah, what I did was exactly what I'd do for a "real game". In fact, for a real game, I'd post several days before-hand to give more people time to respond before I finalize my character.
Unless you have any criticism of the fully updated build and its performance, aside from my adding a spell, I'm going to ignore further comments from you.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Here is a play-by-play, as I think it would go down. Also, I should have given him a composite longbow. I had a brain-fart when listing his equipment, and forgot he had martial weapon proficiencies when putting down a ranged weapon.
On the way to the cave: casts False Life, Mage Armor, Message, Protection from Energy (Acid), and Alter Self (Dwarf Ancestor). His bat flies ahead (~300 feet) scouting, and flies back to warn him if it spots something. He can sense it empathically up to 1 mile, in case something happens to it. Within 150 feet, they can talk via Message.
The manticore can only hit him on a natural 20. He uses Vampiric Touch to get some more temporary hit points (2d6), and stabs it to death, or shoots it to death if it doesn't land.
Upon seeing the cave entrance, he casts Bull's Strength, Shield, Mirror Image, and Scintillating Scales.
The giant constrictor snake has to roll a 14 or higher to hit his touch AC, and has a moderately hard time even closing with him due to Stand Still. It also only has a 25% chance to hit him instead of an image. He easily stabs it to death, but probably loses his Mirror Images.
The wraith can't hit his touch ac without a natural 20. He lobs a few Magic Missiles at it, and finishes it with more stabbing, using Tumble and Stand Still to keep it away from him.
The huge rug has to roll an 18 or higher to hit his touch AC . He has a larger reach and Stand Still, and it has crappy saving throws. So unless it grapples him in the first round, he easily stabs it to death. Even if it does grapple him, he casts Blink to escape, using Sudden Still Spell and his Psionic Focus (take 15 on Concentration) to automatically succeed. The only way the rug could prevent this is by pinning him and preventing him from speaking, which takes two rounds (grapple, then pin). This could concievably happen, but has less than a 10% chance I think (has to roll 17 or higher to hit his flat-footed touch AC in the surprize round, and has to win Initiative).
The young black dragon can't hit him without a 20, and his Protection from Energy absorbs 60 points of acid damage. He stabs it to death.
In total, he has 1d10+5+2d6 temporary hit points (avg 17.5) after using his Vampiric Touch. It is doubtful he'll take more damage than this. If he does, he drinks some healing potions between fights.
Maybe you could explain this to me with specifics?
Assume a 7th level Wizard. If there were a way to get a feat at 7th level, we'd also have minor shapeshift, for a bunch of Extra HP as needed.
Pre-Buff:
Stone Skin
Mage Armor
1st round:
Move back
Cast solid fog to keep enemies at bay for a few rounds
Post Buff 1:
Mirror Image (probably will ignore the 1st round worth of attacks)
Post Buff 2:
Polymorph into Remorhaz:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm
If we hit with bite and grapple => 70 points of damage 1st round.
Admittedly, I was being very generous with spell slots, but you effectively have DR 10, and you have mirror image up, making you very tough.
Best,
David
Thanks for beating me to it.
@Meyer: This is just one of the many creatures you can polymorph into. Being able to turn into a form optimal against the creature you are currently fighting on the fly is enough that noncasters really don't compare. Polymorph is the ultimate utility spell. Just whip out the monster manuals and pick something out. We don't need a specific build to say that polymorph/divine power/ wildhape(large) make noncasters redundant. The abilities speak for themselves.
The Otherworldly feat changes the character's type to Outsider [Native]. Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons. If you still don't like that, then Phaedrus could add another flaw and take the Militia feat, which gives proficiency with all martial weapons and is a staple Gish feat.
L'Avantgarde Noire
No. Characters cannot have two regional feats.
Not saying otherworldy does not give weapon proficiencies by RAW, though.
L'Avantgarde Noire
No. Characters cannot have two regional feats.
Not saying otherworldy does not give weapon proficiencies by RAW, though.
I was going to point that out. ;)
You could do this same build without regional feats or weird races entirely. A grey elf with Martial Weapon Proficiency (Guisarme) taken with another flaw, or a human or dwarf could work. The latter two would have fewer spellslots per level, but could make up for it with more scrolls, if needed, and those races have their own advantages.
Losing access to outsider forms with shapechanging magic would hurt alot, though. Alot of this build's power is from the broken Dwarf Ancestor form. It would fare signifigantly worse without that.
If I were planning on playing something like this in a game, I'd probably go with a dwarf, take one level of fighter, and go into that Rune-whatever PrC that lets you cast without somatic components. Then I'd throw some heavy armor and a shield on him. :P That would be a pretty different character, but I don't really like elves that much, and I think some of the stuff I used is a bit too cheesy for a real game, unless everyone else is uber-optimized.
L'Avantgarde Noire
You were given the opportunity to make your changes before I began my critiques (which I began writing before the scintillating scales scroll was mentioned (I take my time to attempt to check my facts on things like that. I looked for a while to try and figure out how you got guisarme proficiency)). Don't complain because I'm pointing it out now, after I began my critiques. your attempting to do the exact same thing every pro caster tries to do, your trying to assume because your a caster your infallible and always prepared/ready/capable. Keep in mind in a real game, not only can you not add an item or scroll the instant you discover it's exsistance in one of the books, but your also not going to have dozens of people helping you out and pointing to spells found in books you don't have. If I'm not mistaken, your build idea's been up for a few days, you then had the chance to make revisions and then was asked if that was your completed build to be critiqued, to which you said yes. So the one you said yes to was what got critiqued. Don't get pissy with me because I'm pointing out how the real world works differently then claims on these boards.
If it's any consolation ... I started typing up the response to the build as posted ... then we lost power. We just regained power ... so, although it doesn't matter (old build), here is what I typed (laptops allow me to save, even though i cannot post)
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The tactics
The tactics
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Here is a quick update. His familiar scouts ahead a bit, and the mage uses Message and/or his empathic link to keep in contact with it. The manticore only hits him on a 20 with ranged attacks. If it, or anything else, tries to close to melee, he gets an AoO, since he has 20 foot reach. He can use Stand Still on this if he wants, to halt their movement. Unless they look particularly dangerous (the wraith, and snake), he probably just hits them.
Even if they don't hit a Mirror Image, I think they'll all still have to roll a 20 to hit him, except the wraith. For it, he'll rely on Mirror Image, and blast it with Magic Missiles, finishing it off with his guisarme if necessary. He will try to keep it away from him with Stand Still (via attacks of opportunity) as much as possible, tumbling to move away when necessary.
He uses Sudden Still to cast Blink if he is grappled. He blows his Psionic Focus to "take 15" on the concentration check, automatically passing it. He uses Protection from Energy: Acid to negate the dragon's breath weapon (he's supposed to know about the dragon).
He just uses the form of a Dwarf Ancestor the whole time. He has a scroll if he needs a different form for mobility, etc.
Thanks for beating me to it.
@Meyer: This is just one of the many creatures you can polymorph into. Being able to turn into a form optimal against the creature you are currently fighting on the fly is enough that noncasters really don't compare. Polymorph is the ultimate utility spell. Just whip out the monster manuals and pick something out. We don't need a specific build to say that polymorph/divine power/ wildhape(large) make noncasters redundant. The abilities speak for themselves.
My point is that a 7th level caster, you are using 2 4th level spells, which is all a generalist spellcaster with an 18 int will have. This helps you beat ONE encounter -- except, you still have very few hps.
My point is that a 7th level caster, you are using 2 4th level spells, which is all a generalist spellcaster with an 18 int will have. This helps you beat ONE encounter -- except, you still have very few hps.
I don't even know how to argue with this sort of logic.. It just baffles me. Can someone else please teach this man?
Edit for character link, for those who don't want to go looking for it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14439268&postcount=296
Here is a play-by-play, as I think it would go down. Also, I should have given him a composite longbow. I had a brain-fart when listing his equipment, and forgot he had martial weapon proficiencies when putting down a ranged weapon.
On the way to the cave: casts False Life, Mage Armor, Message, Protection from Energy (Acid), and Alter Self (Dwarf Ancestor). His bat flies ahead (~300 feet) scouting, and flies back to warn him if it spots something. He can sense it empathically up to 1 mile, in case something happens to it. Within 150 feet, they can talk via Message.
The manticore can only hit him on a natural 20. He uses Vampiric Touch to get some more temporary hit points (2d6), and stabs it to death, or shoots it to death if it doesn't land.
Upon seeing the cave entrance, he casts Bull's Strength, Shield, Mirror Image, and Scintillating Scales.
The giant constrictor snake has to roll a 14 or higher to hit his touch AC, and has a moderately hard time even closing with him due to Stand Still. It also only has a 25% chance to hit him instead of an image. He easily stabs it to death, but probably loses his Mirror Images.
Encounter 2: Snake
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Stand still does not work, as you are flatfooted.
Round 1: It attacks your image (2 remaining)
You attack it (55% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 52, you :some
Round 2: It attacks your image (1 remaining)
You attack it (110% hit chance) and miss
It: 52, you: some
Round 3: It attacks your image (0 remaining)
You attack it (165% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 41, you: some
Round 4: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 35% chance)
You attack it (220% hit chance) and miss
It: 41, you: some
Round 5: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 70% chance = hit)
You are now grappled, and take 14.5 damage
You activate blink to escape (sudden still, expend psionic focus)
It: 41, you: some
Round 6: It attacks you (105% chance, missing)
You attack it (275% hit chance for 11 damage) (20% miss chance)
It: 30, you: some (4 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 7: It attacks you (140% chance, missing)
You attack it (330% hit chance) missing.
It: 30, you: some (3 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 8: It attacks you (175% chance) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (385% hit chance) for 11 damage) (40% miss chance)
It: 19, you: some (2 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 9: It attacks you (210% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (440% hit chance) missing
It: 19, you: some (1 round remaining in blink)
Round 10: It attacks you (245% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (495% hit chance, hitting, but missing) -- 60% miss chance, enough to cross threshold.
It: 19, you: some (blink is expired)
Round 11: It attacks you (280% chance, hitting)
Stand still does not work, as you are flatfooted.
Round 1: It attacks your image (2 remaining)
You attack it (55% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 52, you :some
Round 2: It attacks your image (1 remaining)
You attack it (110% hit chance) and miss
It: 52, you: some
Round 3: It attacks your image (0 remaining)
You attack it (165% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 41, you: some
Round 4: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 35% chance)
You attack it (220% hit chance) and miss
It: 41, you: some
Round 5: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 70% chance = hit)
You are now grappled, and take 14.5 damage
You activate blink to escape (sudden still, expend psionic focus)
It: 41, you: some
Round 6: It attacks you (105% chance, missing)
You attack it (275% hit chance for 11 damage) (20% miss chance)
It: 30, you: some (4 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 7: It attacks you (140% chance, missing)
You attack it (330% hit chance) missing.
It: 30, you: some (3 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 8: It attacks you (175% chance) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (385% hit chance) for 11 damage) (40% miss chance)
It: 19, you: some (2 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 9: It attacks you (210% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (440% hit chance) missing
It: 19, you: some (1 round remaining in blink)
Round 10: It attacks you (245% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (495% hit chance, hitting, but missing) -- 60% miss chance, enough to cross threshold.
It: 19, you: some (blink is expired)
Round 11: It attacks you (280% chance, hitting)
Runesmith from Races of Stone. Of course, the OP doesn't want to know about Gishes or Psions for whatever reason.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I don't want to know about Psions, as this is not a "Are psionics overpowered' thread. It is caster vs noncaster.
I do not want to talk about Gishes that include non-caster levels as my earlier post said:
Fighter 1:
Fighter 2:
Which is the caster, which isn't?
And yes, as was pointed out to me a couple times, of the three standard gishes, one uses a level of fighter, one uses two levels of paladin.
I don't want to know about Psions, as this is not a "Are psionics overpowered' thread. It is caster vs noncaster.
I do not want to talk about Gishes that include non-caster levels as my earlier post said:
Fighter 1:
Fighter 2:
Which is the caster, which isn't?
And yes, as was pointed out to me a couple times, of the three standard gishes, one uses a level of fighter, one uses two levels of paladin.
So does Wizard 6/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 (using milita feat at 1st lvl to qualify) count?
Umm, I am relatively sure that many melee casters whose AC relies heavily on natural armor (which generally is the case with Alter self-builds) use Scintillating scales. So apparently PhaedrusXY did not have the book in which the spell is and thusly did not put it to his initial build and changed it after he was given a hint to use that spell. Even without that he was doing darn well with his character. Is it so that updating a mage is not allowed and Phaedrus should beat the challenge without using books? Oh yeah, he already did that. do continue.
The objection he was posting is that when we take the time to examine builds/tactics after the poster says "go ahead, this is the final build" ... only to find out actions wasted, is a bit of a bummer. This is especially vexing when we need to go through different books, looking up spells/feats/forms that we haven't heard of before, to make sure they are legal (protection from evil preventing a wraith from touching you? a halfling turning into large?). This takes time -- sometimes more time than people put into their posts (I stab and kill it). -- BUT, at least we are getting caster posts.
And no, read my post after this about his pre-change character, who lost most of the fights.
So does Wizard 6/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 (using milita feat at 1st lvl to qualify) count?
I don't know what knight phantom is, but I mentioned previously that base classes have to be normal casting classes (wizard is definitely one of them, fighter is not, ranger is considered not, duskblade -- who knows) and that PrCs have to be at least 3/5 CL bumps for casters and for noncasters, they need to not be a +1 CL class but can have minor spellcasting (pious templar for instance is ok, it is basically a paladin, Ur-Priest is not ok).
So as long as KP is at least 6/10 CL then sure, that is a legal build.
Ah. I see the mistake you took my post to be associated with an unoptimized build. The point stands:
Why have a noncaster in your party when a caster can replicate your vital functions in addition to other things?
Also, polymorph can be cast on someone else if necessary. This is known to most of the optimizers, hence why they are just ignoring your thread. Overwhelming exceptions and what-not.
The original poster who mentioned polymorph and stoneskin say wizard, he did not say "transmuter" or other hint for a specialist wizard. But, toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe, we both know what the other means.
Re: vital functions .. this is something me and the gang have been looking for -- examples of casters who can DO what you say they can. We normally find issues with their builds, things like not-enough spells, not-enough-feats, etc. In the classes board, a DMM cleric was posted that was inferior in fighting to the fighter. This is not FILLING the vital functions, it is almost doing it ... which is another thing entirely. -- however, we both know all the arguments from both sides by now ... I am just looking for all these casters out there who can do the things people say they can, as I have never seen them in game play.
I'll reply here:
Casters can fill almost any role 7+ with the right spell selection. Just tell me what party member needs to be replaced and I'll show you the wizard, cleric, or druid that can replace it with no build changes. Only spell selection changes.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Except we're talking about a level 5 encounter with level 5 characters. Why isn't a Wizard 4/Fighter 1 acceptable?
L'Avantgarde Noire
Is a Fighter 4/Wizard 1 acceptable as a noncaster?
Is a Fighter 4/Wizard 1 acceptable as a noncaster?
Sure. That's a whole 4 fighter levels.
I don't know what knight phantom is, but I mentioned previously that base classes have to be normal casting classes (wizard is definitely one of them, fighter is not, ranger is considered not, duskblade -- who knows) and that PrCs have to be at least 3/5 CL bumps for casters and for noncasters, they need to not be a +1 CL class but can have minor spellcasting (pious templar for instance is ok, it is basically a paladin, Ur-Priest is not ok).
So as long as KP is at least 6/10 CL then sure, that is a legal build.
Yea ... then its a decent gish; light armor casting (boostable to medium armor with a feat, though thats sort of sub par), CL 19, BAB 17 I think. 2 wasted feats on entry pre-reqs though (still spell & combat casting).
L'Avantgarde Noire
I find it amusing how many people say melee becomes obsolete (many others say non-casters, not necessarily melee. I realize this as well), and even now, it is melee thats getting through this challenge, even when done with a caster.
The question here is non-caster versus caster, which I think there is trouble defining.
Meyer_William's seems to be saying that Caster is anything with spells, only as long as it gets 9th level spells.
This seems to be a bad definition in my mind. Does a Wizard 3/Sorcerer 2/UM 10/Prestige Class 5 that gives all it's upgrades to sorcerer, gaining 8th level spells and 5th level spells not count as a caster, then?
How about a cleric 16/Heirophant 4 - Not a caster, right?
And a Battle Sorcerer 10/Swiftblade 10 - sure as hell not a caster!
I suggest we define caster as "Someone that uses spells, either long duration enhancements or actual combat spells, to defeat most encounters."
I suggest we define non-caster as "Someone that does not use spells to defeat most encounters, but occasionally has some minor magic, in form of potion, item, low level magic for the character level, or use magic device check."
The "Low level magic for the character level" should be 3rd level caster classes - paladin, ranger, as well as builds like "Fighter 14/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5" that are demonstratably melee builds with a hint of caster, rather than caster builds that spend numerous spell slots to become clearly superior than melee.
that PrCs have to be at least 3/5 CL bumps for casters and for noncasters, they need to not be a +1 CL class but can have minor spellcasting (pious templar for instance is ok, it is basically a paladin, Ur-Priest is not ok).
And you said DMM persist is okay, right? I'll put together a DMM persist build soon, then (Can someone link me the errata on DMM persist please?)
I suggest we define caster as "Someone that uses spells, either long duration enhancements or actual combat spells, to defeat most encounters."
I suggest we define non-caster as "Someone that does not use spells to defeat most encounters, but occasionally has some minor magic, in form of potion, item, low level magic for the character level, or use magic device check."
I don't doubt the power of spells, I doubt casters ability to use them best in many situations. Nothing prevents a noncaster from using powerful buff spells via UMD, matching and exceeding casters in the process.
I suggest caster builds focus on spells in combat (where the risk of losing a spell to low die roll matters) and especially on save-or-lose DC spells which noncasters cannot use as effectively as rays/touch.
I also suggest, once we have a caster build that can reliably complete the challenge at hand, to move to MM3 monsters of CR 7, possibly bumping the builds level a bit higher as well.
Encounter 2: SnakeShow
Stand still does not work, as you are flatfooted.
Round 1: It attacks your image (2 remaining)
You attack it (55% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 52, you :some
Round 2: It attacks your image (1 remaining)
You attack it (110% hit chance) and miss
It: 52, you: some
Round 3: It attacks your image (0 remaining)
You attack it (165% hit chance) for 11 damage
It: 41, you: some
Round 4: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 35% chance)
You attack it (220% hit chance) and miss
It: 41, you: some
Round 5: It attacks you (14 needed to hit per your notes = 70% chance = hit)
You are now grappled, and take 14.5 damage
You activate blink to escape (sudden still, expend psionic focus)
It: 41, you: some
Round 6: It attacks you (105% chance, missing)
You attack it (275% hit chance for 11 damage) (20% miss chance)
It: 30, you: some (4 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 7: It attacks you (140% chance, missing)
You attack it (330% hit chance) missing.
It: 30, you: some (3 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 8: It attacks you (175% chance) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (385% hit chance) for 11 damage) (40% miss chance)
It: 19, you: some (2 rounds remaining in blink)
Round 9: It attacks you (210% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (440% hit chance) missing
It: 19, you: some (1 round remaining in blink)
Round 10: It attacks you (245% chance, missing) -- 50% hit chance
You attack it (495% hit chance, hitting, but missing) -- 60% miss chance, enough to cross threshold.
It: 19, you: some (blink is expired)
Round 11: It attacks you (280% chance, hitting)
Rules:
Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
A large part of the reason casters are overpowered compared to most non-casters is that they're so good out of combat. For instance, a caster can:
Go to Liz's apartment
Sneak past the zombies and climb the wall
Convince Liz to come with him
Teleport to Mum's house
Kill Phil
Convince Mum that it had to be done
Scry out the crowd of Zombies in front of the Winchester
Sneak to the door of the pub undetected by anything
Unlock the front door, go inside, re-lock the door
Trap the doors and windows
Summon a cold pint
And wait for it to all blow over
How much of that can a single non-caster accomplish?
Tactics must be included on how they are overpowered at each breakpoint listed.
i.e. a first level caster who knows magic missile and shield should not be included
i.e. a first level caster who knows sleep/color spray should indicate that this caster is unable to affect undead/plants/oozes/etc
Of all the monsters with a challenge rating of 1 or less presented in MM-MMIII, a hypothetical wizard who has only prepared Sleep and Color Spray can't affect seven in the original MM, one in MMII and zero in MMIII. Of those, the most worrying is the small-sized Animated Object, though that's not really unique to a Wizard, as Hardness at level 1 messes up non-casters just as much as, if not more than, full casters. The Zombies are easily dispatched by anyone with competent ranged attacks; made easier by Disrupt Undead, the level 0 spell. The skeletons are slightly harder but not really a problem for a Wizard with decent Strength and Constitution. The small Air elemental is fairly easily dispatched in melee; the Earth elemental can be outrun/outmaneuvered; as can the Water elemental. The Fire elemental is too fast to outrun and hits too hard to melee, and a Wizard who's spending his first-level spells on just Sleep and Color Spray will have a tough time. Of course, a Fighter won't have it easy either, as he can't outmaneuver it any more than the Wizard can.
Of course, how many level 1 Wizards prepare nothing but Sleeps and Color Sprays?
Any WOTC book can be used ...
Elite Array
No Gish (or duskblades), this is to compare caster to noncaster
All base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters)
All PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL
No LA races
No aging characters
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
So, a stat determination system that is rarely used due to its sheer suckitude and penalizes casters more than noncasters, no builds that use spellcasting to augment melee damage, no dipping into Fighter or Paladin for helpful synergies and proficiencies, no usage of the Heirophant PrC, which was designed for casters, no use of races or, I assume, templates which might benefit the caster and no decreasing physical stats to increase the key mental stat for casting, which sucks due to the craptasticness of the Elite Array.
A build is something that includes:
Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc.
Please no posting JUST druid 20 -- show me it at low levels, etc.
And show it to you according to an arbitrary set of rules set up to induce the conclusion you desire, rather than any sort of fair test. Sounds good.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I don't doubt the power of spells, I doubt casters ability to use them best in many situations. Nothing prevents a noncaster from using powerful buff spells via UMD, matching and exceeding casters in the process.
I suggest caster builds focus on spells in combat (where the risk of losing a spell to low die roll matters) and especially on save-or-lose DC spells which noncasters cannot use as effectively as rays/touch.
I also suggest, once we have a caster build that can reliably complete the challenge at hand, to move to MM3 monsters of CR 7, possibly bumping the builds level a bit higher as well.
I generally agree with this. When not expected to prove a casters power, it is save-or-suck/die spells that are used to demonstrate it. Spells like grease, sleep, glitterdust, blindness, etc (for low level spells) are attributed as why casters are so powerful. Yet, when expected to demonstrate how a caster is overpowered, they rely on melee buffs, enforcing the value of melee, rather then backing the claims of previous posts where the save-or spells are why casters are overpowered.
L'Avantgarde Noire
There's not too terribly much point in making something easier for someone else to kill when we're presented with a single-character adventure.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Thats my point. Too often it is said after those spells the fight is over, but it's not. The fight becomes easy for those built to defeat it (melee builds), and thus, using the groups abilities (not just what the caster offered), the fight ends quickly, but if the caster can't end fights on their own with those spells (they still need someone else to melee it for them), why is it their given sole credit for the win? why is it only they who are powerful? If the spells aren't powerful enough to let the caster win the fight on their own, and a dedicated melee could possibly fight it on it's own (depends on the build and opponent), but perhaps with significant damage to himself, then why is the caster, who is merely assisting the melee in these cases (and in my experience, in many cases even in the high level, for the purpose of spell conservation) the one who's all powerful and stuff?
Casters are powerful, yes. Particularly in the high levels. But real game limitations and normal human failings are typically ignored on these boards in favour of touting the theoretical power of casters.
In a party, the spellcasting character makes the fight much, much easier on his teammates, through buffing, debuffing, summoning, battlefield control or what-have-you, even something as inefficient as blasting or healing.
Alone, the spellcasting character can still handle things, but he can't use the same set of tactics. In this case, he can't arrange things in such a way that killing the enemy is effortless; he needs to arrange things in such a way that HE can kill the enemies, and that generally means buffs, especially in a low-level environment where we can use Alter Self + Outsider status to boost our defensive abilities through the roof.
A lot of the monsters that have been used so far, like the Wraith and the Rug, aren't subject to many of the save-suck/lose spells, and at level 5, save-dies are few and far between. Given that we're specifically discussing low level characters and tactics, things are going to be different from a discussion centering around level 20 characters with access to Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death or Forcecage.
L'Avantgarde Noire
My point is that a 7th level caster, you are using 2 4th level spells, which is all a generalist spellcaster with an 18 int will have. This helps you beat ONE encounter -- except, you still have very few hps.
Meyer, it is true that this particular example was very resource intensive ... but do note that the Stoneskin would probably last for the whole series of encounters, and that the polymorph would (in this cave/dragon example) last for about 1/2 the encounters.
And this is without any other types of trickery.
I do agree that in this instance you have a valid point (that a wizard doesn't have a lot of 4th level spells at 7th level). But you are also overstating it, because those spells can last a while.
Best,
David
Of course, how many level 1 Wizards prepare nothing but Sleeps and Color Sprays?
What else do you have as a first level wizard? Sleep, Color Spray and Mage Armor is all I have seen in builds here.
He has ranks in tumble for a reason. After each attack, he can tumble away, and uses Stand Still to keep the snake from approaching. The DC is 15, so he makes it over 50% of the time, and the snake doesn't get to advance if his AoO hits and it fails its save.
The problem is that a failed tumble check will provoke an AoO, and getting grappled twice kills that caster.
I don't understand your percentage system. I haven't bothered to read your explaination of it, if there is one. (I haven't read this entire thread.) I guess I'll trust you that it is fair.
Well, it is pretty simple, Meyer just calculates the odds of the snake hitting and constricting the caster before dying and the final result is that it will grapple the caster more than once far before dying.
Although the point that it needs to initiatiate a touch attack instead of a normal one is a fair one.
Also, he has a bat scouting for him. How is he flat-footed when the snake attacks? If he knows the snake is there, and the snake doesn't know he is there, he should get a surprize round. I don't think the bat would have a hard time seeing a giant snake.
These are the skills of the snake:
Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +16
Better than the bat.
And it has scent.
Quite simply, odds are it will surprise both the bat and the caster. Chances are the bat will die while scouting (for the snake, it is food, so it will likely be attacked) costing the caster a level of xp (ouch!).
And once again, do all these monsters start off as Hostile, or are some of them merely Unfriendly?
So, a stat determination system that is rarely used due to its sheer suckitude and penalizes casters more than noncasters, no builds that use spellcasting to augment melee damage, no dipping into Fighter or Paladin for helpful synergies and proficiencies, no usage of the Heirophant PrC, which was designed for casters, no use of races or, I assume, templates which might benefit the caster and no decreasing physical stats to increase the key mental stat for casting, which sucks due to the craptasticness of the Elite Array.
And show it to you according to an arbitrary set of rules set up to induce the conclusion you desire, rather than any sort of fair test. Sounds good.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Let's see
Elite Array - sucks for everyone
No Gish (or duskblades), this is to compare caster to noncaster - Gish combat style is noncaster
No LA races/no templates - sucks for everyone
No aging characters - anti-caster
No Pun-Pun - I hope this is not your only proof of caster power
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks) pro-caster
no fighter/pally dips - no cleric dip
no psionics - sucks for noncasters
What else do you have as a first level wizard? Sleep, Color Spray and Mage Armor is all I have seen in builds here.
All the splatbooks are open to (ab)use here, so we're looking at all 1-st level spells plus all 2-nd level spells (Precocious Apprentice).
How are we handling opposed skill checks? Like, if a character is attempting to Hide and Move Silently, does he need a better modifier than his opponent, or does he need to beat his opponent by 10, or what? Because weighted damage and rolling percentages are fine when dealing with checks against a static DC like an AC, but it's not that good for opposed rolls.
And once again, do all these monsters start off as Hostile, or are some of them merely Unfriendly?
compare modifiers
first check
50% or less to succeed in your favor = fail
>50% success rate = you make it
second check
adjust by the % that did not happen the first time around
third check
adjust by the % that did not happen the second time around
etc....
So, when you're looking at exactly the same modifiers, lose opposed check one, win check two, lose check three, etc.
And once again, do all these monsters start off as Hostile, or are some of them merely Unfriendly?
Unfriendly doesn't really warrant an encounter, unless you need the creature's help for some goal.
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
Is a Fighter 4/Wizard 1 acceptable as a noncaster?
Sure. That's a whole 4 fighter levels.
Ok, how about Fighter 3/Wizard2?
Fighter2/Wizard3?
When does it become a caster instead of a non-caster? This is what I am trying to keep clear.
Also ... if Wizard1/Fighter 4 is a noncaster, then I am looking to putting together my otherworldly dwarven ancestor build (using a scroll of alter self + scintillating scales, like what the wizard has on his equipment list). Does anyone doubt that this build will perform better than the wizard?
(Fighter's d10s offset the false life, chain shirt = mage armor (basically), etc)
I'm A lot of the monsters that have been used so far, like the Wraith and the Rug, aren't subject to many of the save-suck/lose spells, and at level 5, save-dies are few and far between. Given that we're specifically discussing low level characters and tactics, things are going to be different from a discussion centering around level 20 characters with access to Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death or Forcecage.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Well, here's a proposed encounter for the level 7-9 gauntlet:
The Field Of Death
Show
Theme: battlefield control
EL: 7+
time: day
weather: temperate, calm
terrain: Plains (battlefield) (DMG p.91)
encounter starting distance: both parties detect each other at average Plains distance and roll initiative (840 ft LoS)
Opponent: Demon, Arrow
Tactics: Dimension door to a terrain feature providing concealment/cover. Hide and use Sniping attacks. Repeat if threatened. Try to summon another Arrow Demon if seriously threatened.
Prebuff conditions: A duration of at least one adventuring day (8 hours).
Victory conditions: This encounter cannot be bypassed. The Arrow Demon must be killed or forced to flee the area.
Theme: battlefield control
EL: 7+
time: day
weather: temperate, calm
terrain: Plains (battlefield) (DMG p.91)
encounter starting distance: both parties detect each other at average Plains distance and roll initiative (840 ft LoS)
Opponent: Demon, Arrow
Tactics: Dimension door to a terrain feature providing concealment/cover. Hide and use Sniping attacks. Repeat if threatened. Try to summon another Arrow Demon if seriously threatened.
Prebuff conditions: A duration of at least one adventuring day (8 hours).
Victory conditions: This encounter cannot be bypassed. The Arrow Demon must be killed or forced to flee the area.
The question here is non-caster versus caster, which I think there is trouble defining.
Meyer_William's seems to be saying that Caster is anything with spells, only as long as it gets 9th level spells.
Almost ... Bard is a caster ... he doesn't get 9th level spells. It would be more correct to say (with the possible exception of duskblade which i am not sure how to classify) that things that base classes that get spells each level are casters. Base classes that do not get spells each level (paladin/ranger/hexblade) are not casters.
This seems to be a bad definition in my mind. Does a Wizard 3/Sorcerer 2/UM 10/Prestige Class 5 that gives all it's upgrades to sorcerer, gaining 8th level spells and 5th level spells not count as a caster, then?
Lets see, based on the criteria I actually said:
Wizard: Caster, base class who gets spells each level
Sorcerer: Caster, base class who gets spells each level
UM: PrC with at least 3/5 CL advancement
Assuming PrC 5 is not something like ronin ... then yes, this is a caster.
How about a cleric 16/Heirophant 4 - Not a caster, right?
Cleric: Caster, base class who gets spells each level
Heirophant: I am not familiar with this, does it advance casting?
And a Battle Sorcerer 10/Swiftblade 10 - sure as hell not a caster!
Battle Sorcerer: Caster, base class who gets spells each level
Swiftblade: I am unsure of this, if it advances casting at least 6/10 then yes.
Well, here's a proposed encounter for the level 7-9 gauntlet:
The Field Of DeathShow
Theme: battlefield control
EL: 7+
time: day
weather: temperate, calm
terrain: Plains (battlefield) (DMG p.91)
encounter starting distance: both parties detect each other at average Plains distance and roll initiative (840 ft LoS)
Opponent: Demon, Arrow
Tactics: Dimension door to a terrain feature providing concealment/cover. Hide and use Sniping attacks. Repeat if threatened. Try to summon another Arrow Demon if seriously threatened.
Victory conditions: This encounter cannot be bypassed. The Arrow Demon must be killed or forced to flee the area.
He has ranks in tumble for a reason. After each attack, he can tumble away, and uses Stand Still to keep the snake from approaching. The DC is 15, so he makes it over 50% of the time, and the snake doesn't get to advance if his AoO hits and it fails its save. I didn't mention in the specific tactics for the snake, but did mention them for the wraith. If the fight was seeming tough, it makes sense that he'd use them for it as well. I am not sure this would help all that much here, though.
This would be part of the "Change your tactics for the win" that I requested.
EDIT - Just noticed that the wizard is using an inappropriately sized weapon, so he gets a -2 to hit.
If you are planning on tumble + standstill, then I need to redo that fight with the new tactics. However:
1) Your tumble succeeds about 50% of the time (half the time causing the snake to get an AoO on you)
2) Your AoO attack hits about 45% of the time causing a DC 21 save, which the monster makes half the time.
So: this looks like it balances out. Let me know if you still think this will change anything?
Additionally, with a movement rate of only 20, if it gets close to you (5') then you need to tumble/double move to be able to attack the monster with your guisarme (reach weapon) -- which means that you do not get an attack that round.
So this might even be worse for you.
Also, he has a bat scouting for him. How is he flat-footed when the snake attacks? If he knows the snake is there, and the snake doesn't know he is there, he should get a surprize round. I don't think the bat would have a hard time seeing a giant snake.
In DnD, creatures are flatfooted (even in an arena setting) until they take their first action. This is why you are flatfooted.
The snake has to roll a 14 to hit him on a touch attack. It has to roll a natural 20 to hit with its regular attack. So, to even benefit from that, it has to be smart enough to try to initiate a grapple via a touch attack, instead of biting and trying to use improved grab. I'd say it probably isn't.
If I frequently attacked things the way the snake does, I would have two approaches. 1) normal attack then grab (most things), 2) grapple (for things that number 1 doesn't work for).
I'm saying that we don't have access to save-dies yet and the incentive to use most control or save-suck spells isn't there. The idea as I understand it is this:
In a party, the spellcasting character makes the fight much, much easier on his teammates, through buffing, debuffing, summoning, battlefield control or what-have-you, even something as inefficient as blasting or healing.
Alone, the spellcasting character can still handle things, but he can't use the same set of tactics. In this case, he can't arrange things in such a way that killing the enemy is effortless; he needs to arrange things in such a way that HE can kill the enemies, and that generally means buffs, especially in a low-level environment where we can use Alter Self + Outsider status to boost our defensive abilities through the roof.
A lot of the monsters that have been used so far, like the Wraith and the Rug, aren't subject to many of the save-suck/lose spells, and at level 5, save-dies are few and far between. Given that we're specifically discussing low level characters and tactics, things are going to be different from a discussion centering around level 20 characters with access to Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death or Forcecage.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I had to fight creature immune to weapon damage and ones that ATE MY WEAPONS -- so you will understand my reluctance to hear complaints about rugs and wraiths,
This is incomplete:
Preconditions: What amount of buffing is allowed
PreKnowledge: When did we learn of the monster (at spell prep time, at prep time, or at initiative roll time)
How long has it been since buffs were applied?
Prebuff info edited in already.
Preknowledge is a very important step that needs to be discussed for the gauntlet as a whole. I believe people tend to use metagaming knowledge, unwittingly or not, when the opponent is known.
If I frequently attacked things the way the snake does, I would have two approaches. 1) normal attack then grab (most things), 2) grapple (for things that number 1 doesn't work for).
The snake has no way of knowing it can't hit the wizard until it tries to attack him repeatedly. Then I could see it trying to initiate a grapple using touch attacks, but not before. If it had tried to attack several times with normal attacks and failed, the wizard would have had a lot better chance of defeating it. It is not smart enough to size up an opponent before a fight, and modify its tactics before combat. It would have been dead if the combat lasted 2-3 more rounds.
These are the skills of the snake:
Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +16
Better than the bat.
And it has scent.
Quite simply, odds are it will surprise both the bat and the caster. Chances are the bat will die while scouting (for the snake, it is food, so it will likely be attacked) costing the caster a level of xp (ouch!).
Except the bat has Blindsense. It doesn't need to make spot checks at all if it gets within 20 feet.
And unless there is a light source, the snake can't see at all. So it has to rely entirely on its sense of smell to detect the bat, or listen checks.
With scent, it will not be able to determine the exact square the bat is in unless it comes within 5 feet of it, or uses a move action. So the bat has very good odds of detecting the snake, and making it back alive to report it.
In DnD, creatures are flatfooted (even in an arena setting) until they take their first action. This is why you are flatfooted.
The wizard should know where the snake is before it knows where he is, due to the bat. The snake has to have adequate concealment to use its Hide skill. The wizard has a prepared light spell, and he's a genius, compared to the snake which is a moron. Please give him some credit. There is no way the snake should surprize him, or catch him flatfooted. Moving after you've spotted your enemy is still an action in combat. It doesn't have to be an attack.
Prebuff info edited in already.
Preknowledge is a very important step that needs to be discussed for the gauntlet as a whole. I believe people tend to use metagaming knowledge, unwittingly or not, when the opponent is known.
like having protection from acid cast when the final encounter is a black dragon :D
And plenty magic missiles for incorporeal critters!
The solution is making the same character, with the same gear, go through a different, but same CR, gauntlet.
Knowing it is an arrow demon makes the fight very easy for a non caster. All he needs is a potion of invisibility and an arrow of binding. Get close, shot arrow (no teleport for several minutes) + charge-kill.
The snake has no way of knowing it can't hit the wizard until it tries to attack him repeatedly. Then I could see it trying to initiate a grapple using touch attacks, but not before. If it had tried to attack several times with normal attacks and failed, the wizard would have had a lot better chance of defeating it. It is not smart enough to size up an opponent before a fight, and modify its tactics before combat. It would have been dead if the combat lasted 2-3 more rounds.
It tried to hit him repeatedly. It wasn't until round 5 that it managed a hit.
How many attacks does it need before you consider it attacking you repeatedly?
Also, if we take into account the -2 penalty for incorrectly sized weapons, it should take another 5 or so rounds for the kill vs the snake (1/3 the duration of min/level spells).
What else do you have as a first level wizard? Sleep, Color Spray and Mage Armor is all I have seen in builds here.
Magic Missile and Shield have also been used. Besides, the wizard in the first post ONLY has Sleep and Color Spray. No Mage Armor, no buffs, nothing.
Elite Array - sucks for everyone
But moreso for casters.
No Gish (or duskblades), this is to compare caster to noncaster - Gish combat style is noncaster
Really? Casting spells on yourself to enhance your melee ability and burning unused slots with Arcane Strike is a noncaster tactic?
No LA races/no templates - sucks for everyone
:shrug: Pretty true; it's just a silly restriction.
no psionics - sucks for noncasters
Psions ARE casters. Maybe "No Psy Warrior" sucks for noncasters, but no Psionics is definitely a restriction on casting.
L'Avantgarde Noire
like having protection from acid cast when the final encounter is a black dragon :D
And plenty magic missiles for incorporeal critters!
Yeah. I noticed this peculiar spell selection too.
The solution is making the same character, with the same gear, go through a different, but same CR, gauntlet.
Knowing it is an arrow demon makes the fight very easy for a non caster. All he needs is a potion of invisibility and an arrow of binding. Get close, shot arrow (no teleport for several minutes) + charge-kill.
The question is how to avoid metagaming. One way is to create several encounters and draw random: but then we'll have an argument about "who got lucky". Another way is to find a neutral and competent third party to devise the gauntlet. Finally, we can make 2-3 days (four per day) worth of various encounters and hope numbers balance out.
like having protection from acid cast when the final encounter is a black dragon :D
This is in-game knowledge. Mini-adventure specified the existance of a dragon and its color.
Really? Casting spells on yourself to enhance your melee ability and burning unused slots with Arcane Strike is a noncaster tactic?
Casting spells on yourself to enhance your melee ability is defininitely noncaster tactic.
Burning slots - OK.
Psions ARE casters. Maybe "No Psy Warrior" sucks for noncasters, but no Psionics is definitely a restriction on casting.
Ah. But casters have to choose to progress up-the-levels either as magic or psi wielders, while noncasters can expand horizontally with great effect.
This is in-game knowledge. Mini-adventure specified the existance of a dragon and its color.
But what about filling lvl 1 with magic missiles?
The wizard has a prepared light spell, and he's a genius, compared to the snake which is a moron. Please give him some credit. There is no way the snake should surprize him, or catch him flatfooted. Moving after you've spotted your enemy is still an action in combat. It doesn't have to be an attack.
Explain to me how this works:
Snake in darkness, Wizard with light is walking towards it ... and sneaks up on it? How does this work again? Please explain in excruciating detail.
In normal DnD, either the snake would get a surprise round, or a roll for initiative -- depending on how the DM is feeling at the moment.
But what about filling lvl 1 with magic missiles?
With the addition of scintillating scales, the wraith needs a 20 to hit him (probably) ... it would be a long drawn out battle, but the wizard without spells still beats the wraith.
I am not complaining about the spell selection. I would like to see the spell book though, to see what the caster brings to the table other than melee ... as the power of this build at this level is a 10 minute/level and a 1 minute/level spell ... both of which are 2nd level, so they can both be cheaply made into scrolls / wands for noncasters to use.
Casting spells on yourself to enhance your melee ability is defininitely noncaster tactic.
Burning slots - OK.
EmeraldStreak -- you are almost correct.
Casting spells is a caster tactic but MELEE is a noncaster tactic. However, the contention is that the caster (once buffed) out does the melee.
In other words, that they do the melee's job better than the melee does.
EmeraldStreak -- you are almost correct.
Casting spells is a caster tactic but MELEE is a noncaster tactic. However, the contention is that the caster (once buffed) out does the melee.
In other words, that they do the melee's job better than the melee does.
Only when the buffs casted are (realistically) unavailable to the noncaster via UMD items, non-UMD items, legacy weapons, dragonmarks, etc, etc.
Explain to me how this works:
Snake in darkness, Wizard with light is walking towards it ... and sneaks up on it? How does this work again? Please explain in excruciating detail.
In normal DnD, either the snake would get a surprise round, or a roll for initiative -- depending on how the DM is feeling at the moment.
The familiar sees the snake via blindsense. The snake cannot pinpoint the familiar because it cannot see. Familiar returns to master empathically alerting its master to danger ahead. The wizard moves slowly in the dark, following the urgings of the familiar. As they approach the snake, the familiar again alerts the master where the snake is, and unlike the snake knows exactly where the snake is(its square). The snake does not know there is anything coming towards it. As such, the wizard would most likely get a surprise round.
Side note, a snake that large would not be targeting a tiny bat as food. Also, not sure if animals will change their tactics(switch from normal attacks with improved grab to grappling via touch attack) because their int is so low. Just like I doubt the snake would suddenly try to trip someone simply because by RAW it has that option.
-AS-
The familiar sees the snake via blindsense. The snake cannot pinpoint the familiar because it cannot see. Familiar returns to master empathically alerting its master to danger ahead. The wizard moves slowly in the dark, following the urgings of the familiar. As they approach the snake, the familiar again alerts the master where the snake is, and unlike the snake knows exactly where the snake is(its square). The snake does not know there is anything coming towards it. As such, the wizard would most likely get a surprise round.
Per this ... the wizard is accepting a 50% miss chance on both sides? I would LOVE to see this happen. (battle now lasts 30-35 rounds, most of the minute/level spells are almost expired). Plus, the wizard is now moving at 10' speed, instead of 20' speed. Scouting/movement will eat up most of the remaining rounds of his min/level spells before he reaches the wraith. And the rug easiliy hits/kills him now.
However, with the poster talking about having prepared light, the implication is that it was cast. Especially since the wizard is a genius (you do not wander around blind through a cave, moving slowly while your min/level buffs are ticking)
Side note, a snake that large would not be targeting a tiny bat as food. Also, not sure if animals will change their tactics(switch from normal attacks with improved grab to grappling via touch attack) because their int is so low. Just like I doubt the snake would suddenly try to trip someone simply because by RAW it has that option.
-AS-
The snake is a constrictor. It has the option to grapple (constrict) either the normal way of through improved grab. I do not see an problem with this.
I had to fight creature immune to weapon damage and ones that ATE MY WEAPONS -- so you will understand my reluctance to hear complaints about rugs and wraiths,
Meyer, I was simply addressing the concern that the presented Wizards aren't using save-suck spells as often as they might be expected to. I'm aware that there are challenges presented to non-casters which are not presented to casters.
L'Avantgare Noire
However, with the poster talking about having prepared light, the implication is that it was cast.
No, the implication is that it CAN BE but HAS NOT been cast. After all, it's still in the prepared state.
L'Avantgarde Noire
The question is how to avoid metagaming. One way is to create several encounters and draw random: but then we'll have an argument about "who got lucky". Another way is to find a neutral and competent third party to devise the gauntlet. Finally, we can make 2-3 days (four per day) worth of various encounters and hope numbers balance out.
There is no neutral / competent third party, rather, there is no way that a party will be seen as neutral/competent.
The rules that I posted at the start of this thread, I thought to be very fair and balanced yet recieved numerous complaints.
No, the implication is that it CAN BE but HAS NOT been cast. After all, it's still in the prepared state.
L'Avantgarde Noire
He talks about SPOTTING the creature. if he cannot see -- he cannot spot.
The familiar sees the snake via blindsense. The snake cannot pinpoint the familiar because it cannot see. Familiar returns to master empathically alerting its master to danger ahead. The wizard moves slowly in the dark, following the urgings of the familiar. As they approach the snake, the familiar again alerts the master where the snake is, and unlike the snake knows exactly where the snake is(its square). The snake does not know there is anything coming towards it. As such, the wizard would most likely get a surprise round.
Something like this. The familiar can talk to its master. So it doesn't have to rely on the empathic link. The snake would see the light source of the wizard, if he has one up already, though.
I'm not 100% sure if the wizard has Darkvision or Low-light vision. I picked his race from the wizard's handbook, and I don't have the book with Dragonborn in it. I think he probably has darkvision, either from being an outsider, or from dragonborn, but I'm not sure. If someone who has the book with Dragonborn in it could let us know, that would be great. He should also have wings or a breath weapon or something, but since I wasn't sure on the details of the race, I left that out. I was using it mainly to get rid of the Con penalty for being an elf, while keeping the Int boost.
Either way, with low-light vision or darkvision, he can see 40 to 60 feet away from the Light spell clearly (not shadowy illumination). So the snake should have no concealment to hide. If he still couldn't see it for some reason, and the bat was telling him it was close enough to see, he could toss his light source to where he thinks it is, illuminating it. I typically cast it on the fletching of an arrow or crossbow bolt, or something else that is easily detatchable. Also, he should probably have some torches, but I didn't list it. I didn't list clothes either, but I'd assume he's wearing some.
From the SRD section on Concealment:
Ignoring Concealment
Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters.
So with low light vision, if the snake gets within 40 feet, it doesn't have concealment to hide. If the wizard has Darkvision, the distance is 60 feet.
I guess it could use Cover, if there is any available, though.
The snake also only has a move speed of 20, which is reduced to 10 while hiding, unless it wants to take a penalty. The wizard should easily see it if it tries to sneak up on him within the area lit by the light spell, unless the snake is using cover to hide.
Also, not sure if animals will change their tactics(switch from normal attacks with improved grab to grappling via touch attack) because their int is so low. Just like I doubt the snake would suddenly try to trip someone simply because by RAW it has that option.
-AS-
I doubt the snake would be smart enough to alter its attack routine at all, either, without training. And Meyer, you had the snake making touch attacks immediately, as soon as the images were gone. It did "hit" the images, so even if you say it is smart enough to change tactics due to a hard to hit target, I don't think hitting the images would be enough to "trigger" this change of tactics. You did give him the benefit of a doubt and have it hit all the images first, before the wizard, though. So I don't think you're being entirely unfair, but I do think you are tending to be slightly biased towards the monsters.
I doubt I'll be replying for a while. I've got too much to do IRL.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Explain to me how this works:
Snake in darkness, Wizard with light is walking towards it ... and sneaks up on it? How does this work again? Please explain in excruciating detail.
In normal DnD, either the snake would get a surprise round, or a roll for initiative -- depending on how the DM is feeling at the moment.
The bat is ahead of the wizard. The bat sees the snake, flies a bit away and says "There is a giant
snake right there behind that big rock on the right side of the tunnel!"At best, the snake at this point has caught the scent of the bat, and might see a distant glow in the tunnel.
Wizard shoots/throws/whatever his light source where the bat says, and sees the snake.
Shouldn't combat already be started at this point, since the wizard is aware of the snake, and has in fact already taken an action since being aware of it?
Even if the wizard still doesn't see it for some reason, he positions himself so that the snake has to move through an area with no cover or concealment to get to him.
There is certainly no way that the snake should get a surprize round, and I don't think it would catch the wizard flat-footed, either.
Looking back, I should have went with a Conjuration specialist wizard with the Abrupt Jaunt class feature, instead of an elven generalist. I just don't like specialist wizards.
Don't forget the snake has a decent listen. I doubt it would get a surprise round on you, but I also doubt you'd get one on it. So it comes down to who wins init.
If they don't roll initiative within melee range of each other, and the wizard gets a turn before the snake reaches him, then the wizard isn't flatfooted when the snake enters his reach, regardless of who wins initiative. So he gets to try to tag it with an AoO, use Stand Still, and prevent it from attacking him.
I don't think combat starts when one person attacks. It starts when both parties are aware of each other and start taking tactical actions of any kind. Then you roll initiative, and combat starts. Anyone who gets a turn after that point, and does anything, is no longer flat-footed. That basically started when the bat detected the snake and told the wizard, the snake smelled the bat, and they all started manuvering to attack each other.
To summarize: the bat and snake would act in a surprize round, upon detecting each other. They'd roll initiative then, and then the wizard would roll after the bat tells him about the snake. At this point, the wizard and snake are still well out of melee range. After the wizard's first turn, he is no longer flat-footed.
As for the snake attacking the bat: The bat only has to get within 20 feet to detect the snake. At that point, it uses the rest of its movement to move away. The snake could try to get to it and attack on its turn, but it does not start within reach of the bat (15 feet), and it needs a move action to pinpoint the bats location. So it really can't reach and attack the bat before it flies away, unless it gets within 5 feet of the bat during its movement to automatically detect it. The bat has a fly speed of 40, while the snake only has a movement of 20. So I think it is really unlikely that the snake gets to attack the bat while it is scouting.
Edit: I should have given him a large-sized guisarme, since I planned on him running around as a Dwarf Ancestor all the time. Another oversight on my part when updating the character. So either the damage he's doing should be increased to 2d6, or he takes a -2 to all attacks. Of course, I'd prefer the former... And since we're wanting to look at how an optimized caster does, not one that was screwed up during creation, I think it is more in line with the thread goals to go with the large sized weapon, also.
Also, this proposed "balance of power" is just for the hack and slash combat aspect of the game. When it comes to travel, information-gathering, NPC interaction, etc., which I would say shares at least equal importance to combat itself, casters begin to overshadow the non-casters even earlier in the game. I would say that with regards to non-combat power, non-casters = casters (lvl 1-6), non-casters < casters (lvl 7+). Granted the rogue non-casters will always have a special niche here throughout the game, but I still think their job is better done by splashing some caster abilities into the mix at later levels.
Note that the proposed gauntlet depends heavily upon the meta-game assumption that it must be completed without resting. However, there is nothing in the way of time constraints. The caster could conceivably use more spells per encounter and if he didn't feel safe continuing further, could retreat a "safe distance" from the cave to rest. A caster could also use more extensive scouting to gain information ahead of time. The caster could spend a few days to scout the cave as an invisible burrowing creature, or use Chain of Eyes on a sneaky familiar. Probing the cave with a summoned creature while flying and invisible for fast retreat, then returning the next day with exactly the spells needed to beat the next encounter. The proposed gauntlet highlights the most favorable situation for a non-caster, a series of straight combats with no foreknowledge of opponents and very little encounter-specific preparation.
It might also be more interesting to examine the performance of a group of 2 to 4 non-casters running a "gauntlet" of encounters as well as a group of 2 to 4 casters running the same gauntlet. The nature of solo game-play can be very different from the group dynamic (which is more likely how the game is played). As has been pointed out already, low-level spells can be potent at altering an encounter in the caster's favor, but ultimately, dealing the damage to kill the opponent is done through melee at lower levels. At lower levels, solo casters are still very challenged to strike those finishing blows.
Another issue that should be addressed, the proposed builds for any gauntlet challenges should probably have a decent "future" for the build in mind. Sometimes you can optimize for a particular level of character development, but the choices made turn out to be not so optimal at a later time in the game. I know that a lot of this depends on how lenient the DM is about retraining rules, so the waters here can get very muddy.
So I guess what I am saying is that a solo non-caster at lvl 5 is certainly more powerful than a solo caster at lvl 5 (esp. with access to ToB). But a party of 4 non-casters at level 11 is certainly less powerful that a party of 4 casters. Non-casters are more powerful for about 1/4 of the game, they are equal for 1/4 of the game, and casters dominate the last 1/2 (and all of epic, if you care about that).
Also, this proposed "balance of power" is just for the hack and slash combat aspect of the game. When it comes to travel, information-gathering, NPC interaction, etc., which I would say shares at least equal importance to combat itself, casters begin to overshadow the non-casters even earlier in the game. I would say that with regards to non-combat power, non-casters = casters (lvl 1-6), non-casters < casters (lvl 7+).
How do you figure? What did the caster build bring to the table that surpassed the noncaster in out-of-combat stuff?
Note that the proposed gauntlet depends heavily upon the meta-game assumption that it must be completed without resting. However, there is nothing in the way of time constraints. The caster could conceivably use more spells per encounter and if he didn't feel safe continuing further, could retreat a "safe distance" from the cave to rest. A caster could also use more extensive scouting to gain information ahead of time. The caster could spend a few days to scout the cave as an invisible burrowing creature, or use Chain of Eyes on a sneaky familiar. Probing the cave with a summoned creature while flying and invisible for fast retreat, then returning the next day with exactly the spells needed to beat the next encounter. The proposed gauntlet highlights the most favorable situation for a non-caster, a series of straight combats with no foreknowledge of opponents and very little encounter-specific preparation.
I believe I mentioned that this (spellcaster scouting) was something I would not mind seeing happen.
It might also be more interesting to examine the performance of a group of 2 to 4 non-casters running a "gauntlet" of encounters as well as a group of 2 to 4 casters running the same gauntlet. The nature of solo game-play can be very different from the group dynamic (which is more likely how the game is played). As has been pointed out already, low-level spells can be potent at altering an encounter in the caster's favor, but ultimately, dealing the damage to kill the opponent is done through melee at lower levels. At lower levels, solo casters are still very challenged to strike those finishing blows.
This is another level of complexity to the discussion, and although it would be interesting to see, I am not sure how to do it at the moment.
So I guess what I am saying is that a solo non-caster at lvl 5 is certainly more powerful than a solo caster at lvl 5 (esp. with access to ToB). But a party of 4 non-casters at level 11 is certainly less powerful that a party of 4 casters. Non-casters are more powerful for about 1/4 of the game, they are equal for 1/4 of the game, and casters dominate the last 1/2 (and all of epic, if you care about that).
I would completely agree with you here. However, I am interested in your opinion of a mixed group of spellcasters/nonspellcasters, which is how normal DnD is done.
Meyer, as a native outsider, he has Darkvision out to 60 feet. Seeing in the dark is not a problem.
L'Avantgarde Noire
That is one powerful feat.
Martial Weapon proficiency or ... proficiencies with all weapons and darkvisions 60'.
Can someone point me to the wording of that feat? It looks terrific.
adjust by the % that did not happen the first time around
Okay, this is the step I'm confused on.
So, I'll give you an example. Suppose I have a Hide of +15, and the enemy has a Spot of +9. Also suppose I have a Silence spell going, so that Listen checks aren't a factor. How long can I sneak past him?
I'm doing a DMM persist cleric now. Should be done by tonight.
Great!!
You have seen (I suspect) the types of things we look at, and the types of things that don't work. Please do not metagame when you make your DMM Cleric, however, please make it as overpowering as possible.
Make sure you list things like domains / spells known / stats / equipment / skills / feats / flaws (if appropriate). I assume that the DMM Cleric fills the primary role of fighter in the party?
Please try to handle each encounter in as much detail as possible (no, I walk in and kill it).
Good Luck!!!
The Otherworldly feat grants the character the Outsider [Native] type, which means they get all the benefits of that type.
@PhaedrusXY
To answer your question about the Dragonborn, they get to choose one of three "aspects." One gives them a line breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds that is whatever energy type they feel like using. At level 5, it would have a range of 25 feet and deal 2d8 damage. Another aspect gives a bonus on spot, listen, and search checks, immunity to paralysis and magic sleep effects, and low-light vision and darkvision that improves as they gain levels. At 5th level it would be normal low-light vision and 30 ft. darkvision (eventually they gain 120 ft. darkvision, quadruple low-light vision, and blindsense 30 ft.). The last aspect gives them wings and basically functions like a Raptoran, meaning that up to level 5 all they can do is glide.
@emeraldstreak
I fail to see how the inclusion of stacking nightsticks is pro-caster when the level ranges are too low to afford even one nightstick. Also, "allowing" the DMM cleric is just not arbitrarily denying legal build options, so I would consider that neutral myself.
On a more general note, the fact that other characters can emulate things a spellcaster does through level dips and UMD has been brought up a lot in this thread, but I'm curious, how many people here put cleric/wizard dips into their fighter builds or dip rogue for UMD in a normal game? In my experience, the only time I see that is in threads like this one, otherwise, the noncaster builds tend to stick with noncaster tricks because massively boosting your character's power through the use of spells tends to conflict with the character's self-image as a noncaster. Conan might run around with a magic sword, but when's the last time you saw him read a scroll and turn into a giant dwarven statue? Or fiddle with a wand to make himself stronger?
Only when the buffs casted are (realistically) unavailable to the noncaster via UMD items, non-UMD items, legacy weapons, dragonmarks, etc, etc.
Particularly when it seems all the strength of the arcane casters is based around the broken polymorph mechanics, which are hardly exclusive of the casters (contrarily to DMM, which is certainly a cleric/paladin thing).
Alter self/polymorph and PAO are perfectly within the reach of anyone able to use a scroll or wand, since it is a pretty simple buff (not an attack spell, which actually casters do clearly better than UMD abusers). PAO costs 1200 gold at the basic level, which is less than a full plate, can easily last forever (particularly when transforming into an outsider a character with the otherworldly feat) and gives ridiculously huge buffs.
I am pretty sure an unoptimized level 5 with the otherworldy feat could complete the dungeon through spending 1200 gold (of 9000) into a PAO for dwarf ancestor form. Since 5 CR5 encounters give around 20,000 gold, investing 1,200 into a spell that lasts pretty much forever is an excellent idea.
This only shows how broken is polymorph (which we already knew) nothing at all about the strength of level 5 casters.
As I posted in the sister thread in the classes forum, what casters can do that non-casters cannot emulate easily through cheap items (with or without UMD) is metamagic-izing spells through the roof or killing stuff through save-or-lose spells with high DC.
I was actually fairly impressed with the fire caster that was able to cast damage spells at CL3 at level 1. That guy was a real killer, utterly owning all CR1 enemies. Unfortunately damage spells quickly becomes sub-optimal, so that guy was impressive only as long a +2 to CL with fire spells remains impressive, and that is not long.
That is one powerful feat.
Martial Weapon proficiency or ... proficiencies with all weapons and darkvisions 60'.
Can someone point me to the wording of that feat? It looks terrific.
It is in the Player's Guide to Faerun. I think it has been printed in another book or two, also. It is a regional feat, and makes the character a native outsider. To see what that entails, you have to look up the Outsider type in the SRD.
Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
Features
An outsider has the following features.
8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Elves from Evermeet are one of the few races that qualified for it in the PGtF, but I think others have been included in other books.
Neraphim Conjurer 5 (Barred Evocation, abjuration)
Immediate Magic Variant
Feats:Sanctum Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Sudden Maximize. Flaw: Noncombatant,
16 int
14 dex
10 str
12 con
13 wis
8 cha
General Tactics: Sanctum spell+pearls, invisibility, summoning, Neraph+Alterself=Dwarven Ancestor, Powerword pain, sudden maximize shivering touch.
All wealth will be used to craft 14 level one pearl of powers and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5 on concentration checks), and to buy a belt of healing to heal when necessary. Spellcasters don't have the endurance to solo 5 encounters if they do damage by spells normally, so endurance is the hardest part of this.
Spells Prepared
0-
1- Orb of acid (lesser), Power Word pain x2, Orb of fire (lesser), true strike
2- Sanctumed Web, Sanctumed Invisibility, Sanctumed False life, Sanctumed Alter Self
3-Shivering Touch, Summon Monster 3 x2.
My home is far away, so all my sanctumed spells will be poor pathetic level 1 spells. Poor pathetic level one spells that, due to the wording of Pearl of Power, can be recalled with any of my 14 level one pearl of powers.
Threshold is 60% for me, 40% for monsters +100% for every success.
Before embarking Kaermet casts False Life (hr/level duration). He leaves at night.
About to reach the cave, Kaermet casts Alter Self to Dwarven Outsider (min/lvl duration).
The Manticore attacks at 60ft with a volley of spikes. 6 spikes at 5% put them at 30% to hit.
Kaermet closes to 30 ft and unleashes a lesser orb of fire. The orb hits (70% chance) doing 13.5 damage (3d8). Manticore at 44hp.
Manticore charges. Immediate action teleport (1/6) causes the charge to fail. Kaermet uses powerword pain. Manticore moves and attacks, Monsters at 35% chance. Kaermet uses second power word pain. Monster attacks, now at 40% chance, so hits for 10 pts of damage.
Kaermet steps back and turns invisible, refreshing spells. The manticore dies from damage.
Used: 4 pearls of power to refresh power word painx 2 , orb of acid, invisibility.
So, realistically we should assume that the snake is in a cave that has cover (since it's an ambush predator) and light (since it does not have dark vision). We'll give it light, but neglect the cover since everyone else seems to. I drop an orb on it, which misses (155%) and back up. It double moves. I teleport back 10 ft, dismiss alterself, and take another move action. It double moves. I drop another orb on it, which hits (225%) and move back. It double moves. I drop a power word pain on it and move. It double moves. I double move. So on so forth, I drop another power word pain on it, and it dies.
4 pearls (2x orbs, 1 power word pain, and an invisibility) 1 power word pain slot left open (I did this since any encounter requiring two power word pains will by definition lag on long enough to use pearl of power. And now that I'm invisible, I can refresh before the encounter starts, if I wanted to)
The wraith. I'm invisible, it's incorporeal. I drop two celestial bisons on it. They do ((10 roundsx9.5 damage+10 (smite)x7/20 to hit =50.75 damage, which kills the wraith, even with temporary hitpoints.
No pearls expended: I remain invisible.
If it suceeeds
Show
If it succeeds, I then have to make a DC 22 concentration check to teleport away on my turn. Another 50% chance. It does damage to me most likely, which I can take because of false life (though it cuts into my hitpoints). Another 50% chance. By this point it's fairly certain that I'll be out, where I can run back, kite and kill the bugger
@Meyer_William
The Otherworldly feat grants the character the Outsider [Native] type, which means they get all the benefits of that type.
@PhaedrusXY
To answer your question about the Dragonborn, they get to choose one of three "aspects." One gives them a line breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds that is whatever energy type they feel like using. At level 5, it would have a range of 25 feet and deal 2d8 damage. Another aspect gives a bonus on spot, listen, and search checks, immunity to paralysis and magic sleep effects, and low-light vision and darkvision that improves as they gain levels. At 5th level it would be normal low-light vision and 30 ft. darkvision (eventually they gain 120 ft. darkvision, quadruple low-light vision, and blindsense 30 ft.). The last aspect gives them wings and basically functions like a Raptoran, meaning that up to level 5 all they can do is glide.
Thanks. I knew they had three different choices, and that they included a breath weapon and flight, but I didn't remember the details.
Hmm... those all sound good. I'm not sure which one would be best. Probably the non-magical flight in the long run, but the breath weapon would be pretty handy, too.
I fail to see how the inclusion of stacking nightsticks is pro-caster when the level ranges are too low to afford even one nightstick. Also, "allowing" the DMM cleric is just not arbitrarily denying legal build options, so I would consider that neutral myself.
My comment about stacking nightsticks is more appropriate for higher levels, but I have been on enough of these threads where I knew that was coming.
I mentioned the DMM Cleric to make sure that people had a better idea of what I meant by what is (or is not) allows (gish-ish stuff)
On a more general note, the fact that other characters can emulate things a spellcaster does through level dips and UMD has been brought up a lot in this thread, but I'm curious, how many people here put cleric/wizard dips into their fighter builds or dip rogue for UMD in a normal game?
This character here has evasion, it will soon have mettle as well. UMD was just another skill to take.
On a more general note, the fact that other characters can emulate things a spellcaster does through level dips and UMD has been brought up a lot in this thread, but I'm curious, how many people here put cleric/wizard dips into their fighter builds or dip rogue for UMD in a normal game? In my experience, the only time I see that is in threads like this one, otherwise, the noncaster builds tend to stick with noncaster tricks because massively boosting your character's power through the use of spells tends to conflict with the character's self-image as a noncaster. Conan might run around with a magic sword, but when's the last time you saw him read a scroll and turn into a giant dwarven statue? Or fiddle with a wand to make himself stronger?
This almost never happens because most groups are balanced and have divine and arcane casters in the roster.
But if a character needs to go solo, or if the party is formed entirely by non-casters, then it is pretty useful to have someone with good UMD skills to handle the wands of CLW and scrolls of utility/buff spells. Something as simple as Fighter 16/Rogue 4 (likely 'feat rogue') can have UMD and Spot maximized at the cost of 1 bab and 8 hp.
And it works pretty well, really. A melee-heavy party destroys enemies very quickly and needs to stop only when they run out of healing wands, which might be never.
How do you figure? What did the caster build bring to the table that surpassed the noncaster in out-of-combat stuff?
Casters have many options for charming, mind reading, scrying, locating objects to gather information. They have disguise self, invisibility, silence, polymorph for infiltration. They have teleportation, plane shift, overland flight, polymorph to move great distances in short periods of time. They have spells to deal with hostile environments (underwater, other planes, etc.).
The caster shines when the campaign involves figuring out who the enemy is as much as killing the enemy, infiltrating evil (or good) organizations to discover their plans/motives/leaders, conducting murder investigations, escaping a city under siege and traveling hundreds of miles to the neighboring country to beseech aid and returning the sieged city to aid in its defense for the next week while waiting for help to arrive. Non-casters can try to mimic these abilities with items (and perhaps skills in the rogue's case), but the items usually end up being too expensive to afford in conjunction with the "kill the monsters" gear that is also required.
Does this answer the question sufficiently? I know a lot depends upon the campaign style, but it usually fairly obvious in a game session at higher levels for me (both as player and DM). The non-casters end up twiddling their thumbs a lot during the non-combat time, and as DM I have to struggle to provide content directed at them so those players can feel more involved.
Kaermet DeFraug
Neraphim Conjurer 5 (Barred Evocation, abjuration)
Immediate Magic Variant
Feats:Sanctum Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Sudden Maximize. Flaw: Noncombatant
All wealth will be used to craft level 13 level one pearl of powers and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5 on concentration checks)
How do you craft pearls of power? They require CL 17. Which is higher than your caster level. (or did that get errata'ed)
Also, unless you take Otherworldly, you cannot alter self into a dwarven ancestor (it is an outsider).
Since you cannot go through the cave as you posted, I will not attempt to follow the rest of it.
Casters have many options for charming, mind reading, scrying, locating objects to gather information. They have disguise self, invisibility, silence, polymorph for infiltration. They have teleportation, plane shift, overland flight, polymorph to move great distances in short periods of time. They have spells to deal with hostile environments (underwater, other planes, etc.).
Let me restate my question.
For the wizard who used scintillating scales/alter self -- based on his character posted, what did he bring to the party outside of alterself? He did not have a spellbook listed so you can only go by the spells he has memorized.
Does this answer the question sufficiently? I know a lot depends upon the campaign style, but it usually fairly obvious in a game session at higher levels for me (both as player and DM). The non-casters end up twiddling their thumbs a lot during the non-combat time, and as DM I have to struggle to provide content directed at them so those players can feel more involved.
The question you answered was not the question asked.
EDIT - Just noticed that the wizard is using an inappropriately sized weapon, so he gets a -2 to hit.
I don't believe he is. He used Alter Self to become a Dwarf Ancestor, so he's Large. Phaedrus claims he has a reach of 20 feet. You don't get reach if you're using a weapon sized for a creature smaller than you, so he can't be using a Medium polearm. You can't use a weapon that's larger than two-handed, so he can't be using a Huge polearm. So, he must be using a Large polearm, which is sized appropriately for a Dwarf Ancestor.
The wizard has a prepared light spell, and he's a genius, compared to the snake which is a moron. Please give him some credit.
Moron would be an Int of around 5 or 6. The Snake has an Int of 1, which makes it an Idiot at best.
like having protection from acid cast when the final encounter is a black dragon :D
I believe it was explicitly stated for the CR 5 gauntlet that the color of the dragon is the one piece of information that the character has.
I also don't think any of the melee builds had a single rank of Knowledge: Arcana, so I'm not certain how they knew that Black dragons spit acid.
Also, unless you take Otherworldly, you cannot alter self into a dwarven ancestor (it is an outsider).
Neraphim are Outsiders. They're not even (native) Outsiders; they're from Limbo.
How do you craft pearls of power? They require CL 17. Which is higher than your caster level. (or did that get errata'ed)
Also, unless you take Otherworldly, you cannot alter self into a dwarven ancestor (it is an outsider).
Since you cannot go through the cave as you posted, I will not attempt to follow the rest of it.
Not sure of crafting Pearls of Power, but he's an outsider. Neraph and all...
I don't believe he is. He used Alter Self to become a Dwarf Ancestor, so he's Large. Phaedrus claims he has a reach of 20 feet. You don't get reach if you're using a weapon sized for a creature smaller than you, so he can't be using a Medium polearm. You can't use a weapon that's larger than two-handed, so he can't be using a Huge polearm. So, he must be using a Large polearm, which is sized appropriately for a Dwarf Ancestor.
It should be. I listed the damage incorrectly, as I forgot to account for this.
I believe it was explicitly stated for the CR 5 gauntlet that the color of the dragon is the one piece of information that the character has.
I also don't think any of the melee builds had a single rank of Knowledge: Arcana, so I'm not certain how they knew that Black dragons spit acid.
I didn't list any ranks for my wizard, either. But any of them could have hired a sage, or just bribed the local bard with an ale. Since they are assumed to have plenty of time to prepare before hand, I don't see that as an issue.
Let me restate my question.
For the wizard who used scintillating scales/alter self -- based on his character posted, what did he bring to the party outside of alterself? He did not have a spellbook listed so you can only go by the spells he has memorized.
The question you answered was not the question asked.
Sorry I did not understand your question sufficiently. I assumed you were addressing my previous post, which spoke only in generalities about the non-combat abilities of the various character archetypes.
To answer your specific question : the answer cannot be determined given the information. The posters here have not been concerned with providing the complete information about their characters. I would imagine that the "gauntlet caster" would have a few non-combat spells in the book somewhere for days when he wasn't going off cave-fighting.
But I also said that the non-combat abilities of casters and non-casters were pretty much equal at levels 1-6, only around level 7 do the casters start to pull ahead. I did not attempt to suggest that one of the previous "gauntlet casters" could offer more than your "gauntlet fighter" out of combat, but give them a few more levels and I think that they will.
It should be. I listed the damage incorrectly, as I forgot to account for this.
Um... maybe.
It seems equally possible that you walk around normally with a medium sized guisarme dealing the damage that your character shows.
But at this point in time, it seems like we are beating a dead horse ... Let me take one last look at things ... and then post a complete encounter (based on the new information we have). I am curious if you can win before your min/level spells run out.
PHB 1
PHB 2
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane
Spell Compendium
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4=36 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8-2 = 6
WIS: 15+1+2 = 18
CHA: 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Deity: None
Deity's Favourite Weapon: Greatsword
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Int)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 19
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
+1 Fullplate (2650 gp)
+1 Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (1160 gp)
+2 Wisdom Item (4000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Spent: 7120
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp) (Or a healing belt? What does that do? It seems like you can drain charges from it to get 2d8 hp?)
Wand of Faith Healing (750 gp)
Spent: 8620 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+9+3+1 =23, touch 11, FF 22
Saves: 7/3/8
BAB: 3
Spells Prepared:
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead
Shield of Faith, Divine Favour, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain) Aid, Stone Fist, Eagle's Splendor,
3- Channeled Divine Shield, Divine Retaliation, Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Blade of Blood: Take 5 damage to do an extra 3d6 on your next successful hit (lasts 1 round/level or until discharged).
Pages 106 and 110 respectively.
Races of Stone Pg 163: Stone Fist - Medium unarmed attacks deal 2d6+Str, treated as armed. Range: Personal, Cast time = Standard action, Duration: 1 round/level. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Buffing up:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Divine Retaliation
Cast Eagles Splendor
Persist Stone Fist
HP 36:
AC: 10+9+3+1 =23, touch 11, FF 22
Saves: 6/2/7
BAB: 3
Attack: +4, 2d6+1
DR 10/Evil
Running During Day:
Round 1:
Manticore: Snaps it's tail spikes at me. AC 23, attack +8: Roll to hit: 15, chance = 25%. 123 miss, 4 hits, 56 miss.
Damage: 1d8+2 = negated.
I charge: +6, roll to hit = 11, chance = 45%. I miss.
Round 2:
AC 21: Manticore: 2 claws (2d4+5) at +10, bite at +8. Claws = 45% chance, bite = 35% chance. We'll assume both claws hit.
Claw damage: average = 10. We'll assume one rolls higher (12) and one rolls lower (8)
Damage taken = 2
Divine Retribution: Two attacks: +9 and +4. One hits, dealing 2d6+6 = 13 damage.
Cleric Attack: Another miss
Round 3:
AC 23: Manticore: 2 claws, 1 bite. Assume both claws hit.
Assume one rolls high: 3 damage (they both roll 4)
Divine Retribution: Both attacks hit: 26 damage (Total 39)
Round 4:
AC 23: Manticore crits on a claw, dealing 20 (DR 10) = 10 damage (Taken 15)
1 divine retribution hits = 42 damage in total
Cleric hits = 50 damage in total
Round 5: Manticore crits again. Taken 25 damage
1 divine retribution hits (60% and 35% chance respectively, odds are, one will) Deal 63 damage.
Manticore dead. Damage taken: 25 (Gave the Manticore 2 crits in 18 attack rolls on 19-20 crit range. Gave me 0 crits on 12 attack rolls (20 only)
Damage taken: 25
3 charges of lesser vigor, and of course, no worries about buffs.
Constrictor Snake
Round 1
Snake sees me, rushes up, hits, grapples, all successfully. It loses it’s dexterity bonus to AC against non-grappled weapon - such as the floating Stone Fist around my head.
Snake deals 1d8+10 = 14.5 damage = 4.5 damage. My HP: 32/36
85%/60% to hit - once every 4 rounds, both will hit.
I sit in the grappled and use my wand of Lesser Vigor (4th charge used)
HP 33/36. Fist of Doom (as I like to call it), hits for 13 damage:
Round 1: 33/36, and it at 50/63
Round 2: Same: 29/36, it at 37/63
Round 3: Same: 26/36, it at 24/63
Round 4: Same: 22/36, it at 11/63
Round 5: Same: 19/36, it dies.
26/36 after that lesser vigor fades.
ASSUME IT ALWAYS WINS GRAPPLE CHECK.
Use 1 more charge to get to full health. 5 charges used.
Wraith
Sigh, needed to make fortitude saves.
Round 1:
Wraith wins initiative. Fists chance to hit: 70%/55%/55%*0.5 = 35%/22.5%/22.5% (80%)
Wraiths Chance to hit: 70%
Round 1: Wraith misses.
I cast Blade of Blood and Divine Favour. (37.5% and 25%/25% now = 87.5%)
HP: 36/36
Round 2: Wraith hits, I take 3.5 con damage, 7.5 damage. I hit, dealing 5d6+2 (19 damage)
HP: 18.5/26
Wraith HP: 32+5-19 = 18
Round 3: Wraith hits, I negate the con damage, adds 2.5 damage (10) I cast faith healing from a wand. Fist counter attacks, 1 hits dealing 14 damage.
HP: 23/26
Round 4: Wraith hits, I negate the con damage (2.5 more damage - 13). One fist hits (doesn't matter which, perhaps the blade) killing it.
HP: 21/26
Use lesser vigor.
6 lesser vigors, 1 faith healing.
Huge Rug: My HP: 26/26
It’s HP: 84/84
My chance to hit: 80%/55%/35%
It’s chance to hit: 30%
Round 1: It misses, I miss.
Round 2: It misses, I miss
Round 3: It misses, I hit - 8 damage.
Round 4: It hits (3 damage), I hit once = 13+8 =22 damage - My HP: 23/26 It grapples.
Round 5: It Hits, I cast lesser vigor. - 21/26. One Counter attack hits = 35 damage.
Round 6: It hits, I cast faith healing - 26/26. Both Counter attacks hit. 61 damage.
Round 7: It hits, Counter attack hits once - 24/26 - 74 damage.
Round 8: It hits, Counter attack hits once - 22/26 - 87 damage.
Round WAY LATER: Another lesser vigor.
Used: 8 charges of lesser vigor, 2 charge of faith healing.
young black dragon
I win initiative (I have a 55% chance of doing so, and I defaulted to a loss on all the rest).
Cast: Aid.
My HP - 35/35
My chances to hit: 50%/30%/30%
It’s chances to hit: 35%/15%/15%/15%/15%
It’s damages: 1d8+2 1d6+1 1d6+1 1d4+1 1d4+1
It’s HP: 85
It hits me with it’s breath weapon: 15 damage: HP 20/35 Odds of Reflex save = 35%, so I'll make every 3rd.
Round 2:
I cast lesser vigor: HP 16/35
It attacks, doesn’t deal damage.
Round 3: HP 17/35
I cast faith healing: 25/35
It attacks, it can’t do damage.
Round 4: I attack, missing
It breaths again: I take 15 damage 11/35
Round 5: I cast faith healing (19/35)
It attacks. 1 crit (2d8+4 = 13 average). 17/35
One counter attack hits: It’s hp: 72/85
Round 6: I cast faith healing = 26/35
It attacks, 1 critical, dealing 3 damage.
Two counter attacks: 1 hits, dealing 13 damage. It's hp: 69/85
Round 7: HP 24/35 I attack, miss.
It breaths, I take 15 damage. My hp: 9/35
Round 8: I faith heal: 18/35
It misses
Round 9: I faith heal: 27/35
It breaths again. My HP: 20/35 - Make this reflex save (average damage 7) Cast blade of blood.
Round 10: I attack, hit, dealing 5d6+2
My hp: 15/35, it's hp: 40/85
Round 11: I faith heal HP 24/35
It attacks, misses
Round 12: I refresh lesser vigor
It breaths. 10/35
Round 13: I cast faith healing: 19/35
It attacks, crit. 16/35, 1 counter-attack hits. It's hp: 27/85
Round 14: I cast faith healing: 28/35
It breaths: 13/35
Round 15: I cast faith healing: 22/35
It attacks, no damage
Round 16: I cast faith healing: 31/35
It attacks, no damage.
Round 17: I attack, miss (32/35)
It breaths. I make reflex save = 24/35
Round 18: I faith heal: 33/35
It breaths again. 18/35
Round 19: I faith heal: 27/35
It crits: 24/35
Counter attack hits: It's hp: 14/85
Round 20: I faith heal: 33/35
It breaths again: 18/35
Round 21: I faith heal: 27/35
It breaths again. I make reflex save. 20/35
Round 22: I refresh lesser vigor. 21/35
It attacks, misses.
Round 23: I faith heal: 30/35
It attacks, crits. 27/35 - Deal 13 damage: 1/85
Round 24: 31/35 I attack, miss
It breaths: 16/35
Round 25: I faith heal: 25/35
It breaths again: 10/35
Round 26: I faith heal: 19/35
It breaths again. I save: 12/35
Round 27: I faith heal: 21/35
It attacks, misses
Round 28: I faith heal: 30/35
It attacks, crits: Counter attack, dies. 27/35
Used: 12 charges of lesser vigor, 21 charge of faith healing.
Note: in 28 rounds, the dragon breaths 13 times, at random intervals, an average of 2.15. This represents the random roll of a d4, which averages at 2.5
I make a save 1 in 3 rolls, given that I have 35% chance.
Total Resources used:
33 charges, or 495 gp.
Spells and turning for the day:
Spells Remaining: Light. Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1- Domain: Detect Undead, Shield of Faith
2- Augery (domain)
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Although I could have used that Clairvoyance to check for the wraith, and maybe learned to not use stone fist so I could save 5 turning/rebuking attempts...either way.
Assumptions:
1) I win initiative once, against the dragon.
2) Enemies roll above average damage sometimes.
3) Enemies crit on only their highest damage attack.
4) I never win a grapple.
5) I assume my minute/level buffs (Divine Favour) only last one encounter.
6) I do not add the bonus to attack for aid. Why bother? It's only +1 to attack.
I’m ready for CR 6 encounters when you are.
Here you go, with round by round breakdown, spell sourcing, and anything else you'd like. Note the books used: It fits a Core+Completes+Spell compendium ruleset that I often see DM's using. (The races of stone spell, while helpful (Average damage goes from 4.5 to 8 of my own attacks, and from 10.5 to 13 for my divine retribution).Show
PHB 1
PHB 2
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane
Spell Compendium
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
Running During Day:
Assumptions:
1) I win initiative once, against the dragon. It might be dicey otherwise, when it rolls 21 damage on 6d4 (odds = 1/4*1/4*1/4*1/4*1/4 or = 1/256, at best.
2) Enemies crit often. The dragon crits 3 times in one round.
3) I never make a fortitude save.
4) I never make a reflex save.
5) Enemies roll above average damage, often.
6) I never win a grapple.
I’m ready for CR 6 encounters when you are.
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
It would not apply to dragon breath for example.
How do you craft pearls of power? They require CL 17. Which is higher than your caster level. (or did that get errata'ed)
Also, unless you take Otherworldly, you cannot alter self into a dwarven ancestor (it is an outsider).
Since you cannot go through the cave as you posted, I will not attempt to follow the rest of it.
As has been pointed out, The Neraphim are Outsiders w/o the expenditure of the feats.
If you look at pg 215 of the DMG, you'll see that the caster level listed is not a prerequisite: it only exists for the purpose of detect magic and dispel magic. Prerequisites are explicitly listed directly after the caster level of the item.
That you have to meet the caster level of an item is a common misconception based on a common muddled reading of the third paragraph under Creating Magic Items on page 288, where it says the two primary factors are caster level of creator and the level of spell or spells put into them. Most people skim over that and assume that those are prerequisites, but it fairly obviously refers to item creation costs.
If you need anything else that needs clarifying, just post.
How do you figure? What did the caster build bring to the table that surpassed the noncaster in out-of-combat stuff?
Meyer, I assume you mean other than "everything." Casters can't find high-DC mechanical traps or magical ones which are very cleverly disguised, and that's about it.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Meyer, I assume you mean other than "everything." Casters can't find high-DC mechanical traps or magical ones which are very cleverly disguised, and that's about it.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Reread my post 396 ... where I rephrase my question.
And post 400 ... where it is answered very similarly to how we thought it had to be.
The snake is a constrictor. It has the option to grapple (constrict) either the normal way of through improved grab. I do not see an problem with this.
Without the Improved Grapple feat it would provoke an AoO every attack that was initiating a grapple. Improved grab does not remove this unless the attack is a normal attack. As such, the snake probably wouldn't do so.
You are on the CO boards, at some point you have to start taking people seriously. Questions about the Otherworldly feat and Neraphs does not make people take you seriously when either can be explained by a simple google search.
-AS-
Without the Improved Grapple feat it would provoke an AoO every attack that was initiating a grapple. Improved grab does not remove this unless the attack is a normal attack. As such, the snake probably wouldn't do so.
I thought about pointing that out, but didn't... While technically correct, I think that the vast majority of DMs would house-rule that on the spot faster than you could blink your eyes. :P Most probably wouldn't even realize it was a house rule, since it seems "natural". I guess if we want to stick with the letter of the rules, this is true, though.
It would not apply to dragon breath for example.
Good point, misread that. Changing everything respectively, including the fact I don't need to make saves. Now I do. Still.
Changes made. Requires slightly more gold use now.
Good point, misread that. Changing everything respectively, including the fact I never waste the time to make fortitude saves.
There's also the fact that the Wraith doesn't do Con damage. It does Con drain. (Which, IMO, puts it above CR 5, since ability drain can't be repaired in any way until level 7.)
I'm working on a build, but the Manticore's Scent is giving me problems. Are there any cheap alchemical items that foil scent? I believe it was agreed that scouting out the location and then going back to town for more preparation was acceptable.
You only get to scout if you show how you scout.
Without the Improved Grapple feat it would provoke an AoO every attack that was initiating a grapple. Improved grab does not remove this unless the attack is a normal attack. As such, the snake probably wouldn't do so.
Versus the guisarme (reach 15'-20'), when the snake (10' reach) is able to attack, it is inside the reach of the guisarme, so I fail to see how the wizard can take an AoO (no spiked armor) -- or am I missing something
You are on the CO boards, at some point you have to start taking people seriously. Questions about the Otherworldly feat and Neraphs does not make people take you seriously when either can be explained by a simple google search.
-AS-
Thanks for the feeback. But look at things from my point of view, I have had to explain spells to spell casters -- everything from the fact that you need components to cast spells to the fact that a light source is needed if you do not have darkvision to the reason why protection from evil does not make a player immune to a wraith.
I will get some things wrong. It happens.
And actually -- with me saying that at low levels casters are inferior to noncasters, most people on the CO boards do not take me very seriously.
But, I try.
Good point, misread that. Changing everything respectively, including the fact I never waste the time to make fortitude saves.
Let me know when your build is 100% complete. After that time, please do not make changes -- as one or more of us might be evaluating the performance/legality.
The other thing to consider, depending on what you are changing, you might definitely be metagaming on the changes. Just something to consider.
:D
How big are the rooms these monsters are in? And how big are the corridors between them?
Here is the initial post
If we start to need more details, then someone (no one who is actively building or validating builds) needs to supply them.
i agree that at low levels (1-5) ... non casters are usually superior... but thats when casters start to take off... then non casters cant catch them at all
:D
I dont know of the level breakdown of which is better when -- I just tossed numbers out - and wanted to get validation if my numbers were correct. That was the purpose of the sister thread in the Classes board -- which spawned this one (looking for examples of overpowered casters).
Let me know when your build is 100% complete. After that time, please do not make changes -- as one or more of us might be evaluating the performance/legality.
The other thing to consider, depending on what you are changing, you might definitely be metagaming on the changes. Just something to consider.
I am entertaining in this challenge to demonstrate something that most people are already aware of to you. The only thing I changed was the assumptions that I needed not to make fortitude saves, reflex saves, and a double checked my readings of spells, since I realized Blade of Blood would not effect my Divine Retribution, since it is "Damage as Deities favoured weapon" not "Damage as your weapon" as I originally thought.
You can copy down the spells/gear selected if you wish.
I then divided down hit points and things the same way I did originally.
I also question the way you are doing your math here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14431505&postcount=244
In my build, I fail until I reach a 100% chance of hitting/succeeding.
In yours, you succeed until you reach a 100% of failing.
The difference is that in the dragon fight, I succeed on saves 3/6/9/12
You would, using the same numbers, succeed on 1/4/7/10/13.
Furthermore, your method of amalgamating damages (averaging damage/chance to hit) kills monsters quicker than mine of measuing percentages, then fails until successes.
For example:
You do an average of 50 damage, with a 50% chance. The monster has 10 hit points. You say "Round 1, I kill it, since my average damage is 25."
I would say "Round 1, I miss. It attacks, hits me."
I question your method, and suggest you run it the same way I did, especially with the wraith encounter, given that my system guarentees a failed first save.
I would also like the link to your build, since I can't seem to find it, but I, in looking back, don't believe their was sufficient critique.
But importantly:
I use a fail until 100% chance of success system.
You use a succeed until 100% chance of failure system
I question how successful you'd be if you used the same system I did.
Versus the guisarme (reach 15'-20'), when the snake (10' reach) is able to attack, it is inside the reach of the guisarme, so I fail to see how the wizard can take an AoO (no spiked armor) -- or am I missing something
Because the Snake has a space of 15'? The Wizard doesn't threaten the square the Snake is attacking from, but he threatens several squares that the Snake occupies.
I am entertaining in this challenge to demonstrate something that most people are already aware of to you. The only thing I changed was the assumptions that I needed not to make fortitude saves, reflex saves, and a double checked my readings of spells, since I realized Blade of Blood would not effect my Divine Retribution, since it is "Damage as Deities favoured weapon" not "Damage as your weapon" as I originally thought.
The build looks solid to me so far, and if it works the way you say it works -- then ... wow.
I also question the way you are doing your math here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14431505&postcount=244
I have explained multiple times how I do my math.
In my build, I fail until I reach a 100% chance of hitting/succeeding.
In yours, you succeed until you reach a 100% of failing.
The difference is that in the dragon fight, I succeed on saves 3/6/9/12
You would, using the same numbers, succeed on 1/4/7/10/13.
Actually, this is not quite true ... I fail until I reach a certain percentage.
Furthermore, your method of amalgamating damages (averaging damage/chance to hit) kills monsters quicker than mine of measuing percentages, then fails until successes.
For example:
You do an average of 50 damage, with a 50% chance. The monster has 10 hit points. You say "Round 1, I kill it, since my average damage is 25."
I would say "Round 1, I miss. It attacks, hits me."
My hit chance is not as low as 50%, it is more like 80%+. That is a huge difference.
At 80%, first hit (80%) -- per you, I should fail?
I question your method, and suggest you run it the same way I did, especially with the wraith encounter, given that my system guarentees a failed first save.
I would also like the link to your build, since I can't seem to find it, but I, in looking back, don't believe their was sufficient critique.
But importantly:
I use a fail until 100% chance of success system.
You use a succeed until 100% chance of failure system
I question how successful you'd be if you used the same system I did.
My build
Ok, vs the wraith, i make the first one (having passed the 50% threshold) and fail the second. If you would prefer, I will switch that to say I fail the first and make the second. (End result, no change in anything).
And ... knowing what I know now about things, I would have changed my build slightly.
Here is the initial post
If we start to need more details, then someone (no one who is actively building or validating builds) needs to supply them.
Well, according to that floor plan, the Snake is squeezing into its chamber, which means it takes a -4 penalty on AC and attack rolls. It's also trapped, since it can't possibly make the DC 30 Escape Artist check to pass through the 5' wide sections of corridor. (Yes, I know a snake should be better at squeezing through tight spaces, but that's how the rules are written.)
It also completely hoses my caster build, which relies heavily on mobility and concealment, as well as any melee builds that rely on mobility and concealment (likely for Ranger, Rogue, and Swordsage builds).
Actually, this is not quite true ... I fail until I reach a certain percentage.
Just for the sake of clarity, what percentage is that? Does it remain constant?
Well, according to that floor plan, the Snake is squeezing into its chamber, which means it takes a -4 penalty on AC and attack rolls. It's also trapped, since it can't possibly make the DC 30 Escape Artist check to pass through the 5' wide sections of corridor. (Yes, I know a snake should be better at squeezing through tight spaces, but that's how the rules are written.)
It also completely hoses my caster build, which relies heavily on mobility and concealment, as well as any melee builds that rely on mobility and concealment (likely for Ranger, Rogue, and Swordsage builds).
Just for the sake of clarity, what percentage is that? Does it remain constant?
For me: I need to pass the 50% threshold for success
I would have no objection to someone more fully fleshing things out -- especially since the monsters have changed so much since the old cr2 one.
Level 1 wizard with a tiny viper familiar. Sell spellbook for items that increase Knowledge (Religion), and max ranks in Knowledge (Religion). Make a DC 20 (or 25, can't remember) Knowledge (Religion) check to learn Pazuzu's name, and proceed to speak his name 3 times. He grants you a Wish. Wish for a Candle of Invocation. Bam, infinite wish loop via summoning Efreeti's. Quick brokenification at 1st level.
Or, of course, you could always attempt to accomplish the same thing via Magic Circle against Evil combined with Planar Binding, which cements the 'caster' requirement, as opposed to just being a level 1 character with Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, high int, and something to sell for enough gp.
Not exactly willing to sift through 15 pages of stuff to see if this was already mentioned (but it probably was).
Level 1 wizard with a tiny viper familiar. Sell spellbook for items that increase Knowledge (Religion), and max ranks in Knowledge (Religion). Make a DC 20 (or 25, can't remember) Knowledge (Religion) check to learn Pazuzu's name, and proceed to speak his name 3 times. He grants you a Wish. Wish for a Candle of Invocation. Bam, infinite wish loop via summoning Efreeti's. Quick brokenification at 1st level.
Or, of course, you could always attempt to accomplish the same thing via Magic Circle against Evil combined with Planar Binding, which cements the 'caster' requirement, as opposed to just being a level 1 character with Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, high int, and something to sell for enough gp.
In case you didnt get the gist of this thread, it is about showing overpowered casters. The implication is that they could see game play (which is why this is not in the theoretical optimization boards).
The character you mentioned there (even if he didn't go the pun-pun route) would never see game play. Ever. Regardless of legality. As a DM, with other players you calmly say. "Ok, you have infinite everything. Let me know when you are finished playing solitaire and are interested in playing some DnD"
This is a quite standard Human Druid with a Fleshraker companion. I assume that natural bond can offset the -3 Penality to my druid level for the fleshraker.
Also, I paid for and applied the Warbeast template to it. I also bought Mithril Chain Shirt Barding for both of us.
That said, we head into the cave, buffed and ready to go. These are our stat blocks:
Baby Jesus - Warbeast Fleshraker Dinosaur
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (70 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (+7 Dex, +8 natural +4 armor), touch 17, flat-footed 22
Base Attack: +5
Grapple: +12
Attack: Claw +13 melee (1d6+8 and poison)
Full Attack: 4 claws +12 melee (1d6+8 plus poison) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3) and tail +7 melee (1d6+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Sp. Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison (DC 19, 1d6 dex\1d6 dex +5d6 acid), rake 1d6+2, rend 2d6+10
Sp. Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, combative Mount, link, share spells, evasion
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +4
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +12*, Jump +31
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (claw), Track, Close-Quarters Fighting
Equipment: Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp), Collar of Healing (5000gp)
Active Buffs: Girallon's Blessing, Venomfire, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Magic Fang: Claw, Resist Energy: Acid, Primal Instinct
------
American Jesus - Human Druid 5, Wildshaped into Fleshraker Dinosaur
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (45 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (+6 Dex, +6 natural +4 armor), touch 16, flat-footed 20
Base Attack: +3
Grapple: +8
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d4+6 and poison)
Full Attack: 4 claws +9 melee (1d4+6 plus poison) and bite +4 melee (1d6+2) and tail +4 melee (1d6+2 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Sp. Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison (DC 16, 1d6 dex\1d6 dex +5d6 acid), rake 1d6+2, rend 2d4+7
Sp. Qualities: -
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 23, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration +12, Handle Animal +9, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Survival +13, Listen +12
Feats: Natural Bond, Improved Initiative, Companion Spellbond
Active Buffs: Girallon's Blessing, Venomfire, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Magic Fang: Claw, Speak with Animals, Resist Energy: Acid, Primal Instinct
Equipment: Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp), Healing Belt (750gp), Scroll of Primal Instinct (375gp), Scroll of Resist Energy (150gp), Scroll of Lesser Restoration (150gp)
Tipical Spells Prepared
0. Light 3x, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1. Magic Fang, Speak with Animals, Cure Light Wounds 2x
2. Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength
3. Girallon's Blessing, Venomfire
Then, to combat. Sorry If I haven't done all the Math properly but I haven't had much time. If there are any mistakes, please point them out.
We move into the Dungeon, keeping some distance between the two of us to permit charging and, maybe, flanking.
The Dinosaur stays a little forward to track and uses scent. His barding and mine are buffed with a light spell.
Also, we cast light on a stone and we throw it forward if necessary.
By premise, our buffs should last the entire trip, and we can move up to 30' away without losing share spells (via Companion Spellbond)
vs. Manticore
+15 init bonus vs. +2 init bonus. I think it's safe to say we go first.
round 1: I charge together with my companion, both full-attacking.
me: +11\+11\+11\+11 claws, +6 bite, +6 tail vs. Ac 17. (+2 for the charge)
I should hit at least twice with my claws for 1d4+6 plus poison each. Poison DC is 16 for 1d6 Dex +5d6 acid.
This also triggers rend for 2d4+7.
My animal companion does the same, except his claws deal 1d6+8 each and rend is 2d6+10.
If the manticore fails at least one saving throw against the poison, average total damage should be around 80.
Manticore Should be dead.
Before that, it may make an AoO against either me or my companion while we charge inside its squares, hitting on a roll of 14 or higher.
We should move forward without any damage.
vs. Giant Constrictor Snake
We approach the Snake with our +15 init bonus. We win initiative.
His AC is even lower than Manticore's (15) and he has only 63hp, it should end the same way in round one.
There's still the possibility of one AaO against one of us during the charge. He could hit me on a 11 or more.
We hurrily proceed through the Dungeon.
vs. Wraith
+15 init. vs. +7 init. We go first again.
Our usual attack routine (+11\+11\+11\+11) (+14\+14\+14\+14) Vs. AC 15 and 50% miss (Only the Claws are magical because of Magic Fang, so the other natural attacks are useless).
I should hit with at least 3 attacks, same for my companion in not all 4. Assuming only 6 hit from both of us collide and half of them miss because the wraith is incorporeal, we have:
me, 1 hit, 8 damage. Companion, 2 hits + rend, 38 damage.
Wraith should be gone for good.
Should I have some minor damage, I use the necessary charges from my companions' healing belt.
vs. Giant Rug
Surprise Round. It goes first
It attacks me vs. my flat-footed AC (20). This means he hits me on a 11 or higher. (miss?)
Next Round we go first. I full Attack and my companion charges. Rug's AC is 13.
My routine is +9\+9\+9\+9\+4\+4, my companions' +14\+14\+14\+14\+9\+9
I should hit with at least 3 claws and tail and rend. My companion with 4 claws and tail and rend, this means:
49 damage from me, a lot more from the Fleshraker. The rug has 84hp and so it's dead.
If I were grappled, the companion could have dished out 2 rounds of full attacks while I was trying to hit the rug grappled.
My natural attacks are many and my hp were full.
It shouldn't be a problem. If I'm hurt I use more charges from either of the healing belts.
vs. Black Dragon
We go first again. Sigh.
We charge. I should hit with 2 claws and rend. My companion with 3 claws, rend, tail and rake.
Damage output should be: 27 me, 60 my companion. 87 total. The Dragon's Dead
Thanks for reading, and please point out if there's something wrong or missing.
Druid can't wear Mithral. +1 Sharkskin (Stormwrack) is nearly as good and isn't a whole lot more expensive though.
Animals won't come within 30' of a Wraith and become panicked if forced to approach. You're on your own against it.
Two glaring problems, ChatNoir:
Druid can't wear Mithral. +1 Sharkskin (Stormwrack) is nearly as good and isn't a whole lot more expensive though.
Animals won't come within 30' of a Wraith and become panicked if forced to approach. You're on your own against it.
Also, manticore is in the air.
Round 2:
AC 21: Manticore: 2 claws (2d4+5) at +10, bite at +8. Claws = 45% chance, bite = 35% chance. We'll assume both claws hit.
Claw damage: average = 10. We'll assume one rolls higher (12) and one rolls lower (8)
Damage taken = 2
.[/b]
Your calculating your damage reduction in wrong. The manticore does an average of (0x7+1x2+2x2+3x1)/12 or something along those lines. the fact that its 2d4 and not a d8 makes it slightly more complicated.
Hello, first post here.
This is a quite standard Human Druid with a Fleshraker companion.
This is the druid aspect of "at 7+ casters are just better"
This is the druid aspect of "at 7+ casters are just better"
Which is very impressive given that the Druid is only level 5...
Two glaring problems, ChatNoir:
Druid can't wear Mithral. +1 Sharkskin (Stormwrack) is nearly as good and isn't a whole lot more expensive though.
Animals won't come within 30' of a Wraith and become panicked if forced to approach. You're on your own against it.
Thanks for your reply! I can replace my own barding with Sharkskin Armor I suppose. I completely forgot it.
The Wraith, even alone, should not be big a problem.
The Flying manticore is another problem, though. Maybe replacing my companion's collar whit an appropriate item for flying could solve it.
The Flying manticore is another problem, though. Maybe replacing my companion's collar whit an appropriate item for flying could solve it.
This would be an example of metagaming for those interested.
This is the druid aspect of "at 7+ casters are just better"
I don't completely agree with this. After all, I've burned a lot of resources (almost all my spells) in a single line of encounters. If there were more time, like some hours, between them, as all the buffs and Wild Shape would have elapsed, it could have been difficult.
This is the druid aspect of "at 7+ casters are just better"
Which is very impressive given that the Druid is only level 5...
Which is very impressive given that the Druid is only level 5...
The animal companion is at least ECL 7...
I don't completely agree with this. After all, I've burned a lot of resources (almost all my spells) in a single line of encounters. If there were more time, like some hours, between them, as all the buffs and Wild Shape would have elapsed, it could have been difficult.
At level 5, yeah.
It be a class feature
I regard it more as a mistake for my equipment selection, since flying monsters are quite common and I should have thought about it.
As far as metagaming goes, I have chosen Venomfire for one of my 2 3rd level spell slots even when 3 out 5 encounters where immune to it. Do you call this metagaming?
Apart from this, thanks for responding
This would be an example of metagaming for those interested.
I regard it more as a mistake for my equipment selection, since flying monsters are quite common and I should have thought about it.
As far as metagaming goes, I have chosen Venomfire for one of my 2 3rd level spell slots even when 3 out 5 encounters where immune to it. Do you call this metagaming?
Apart from this, thanks for responding
Isn't Swift Fly a second level spell? You probably could get a wand for that...
This would be an example of metagaming for those interested.
I regard it more as a mistake for my equipment selection, since flying monsters are quite common and I should have thought about it.
As far as metagaming goes, I have chosen Venomfire for one of my 2 3rd level spell slots even when 3 out 5 encounters where immune to it. Do you call this metagaming?
Apart from this, thanks for responding
I would call it metagaming if you said "Ugh, I need a different spell for the win, here let me swap out this spell that doesn't affect most of the encounters for the spell I need to win"
I hear about the great versatility of druids, and how they have a different form for things, including flying.
If you do not consider this metagaming, then ok. Btw, I am glad that no one has pointed to my one potion of flying as metagaming.
If you do not consider this metagaming, then ok. Btw, I am glad that no one has pointed to my one potion of flying as metagaming.
Like I said, you know you're on your way to fight a Dragon, and you don't know how big his hoard room is. Without a way to fly, he could just circle near the ceiling and spit acid at you until you die or leave.
Also, (since you pointed out that no one has critiqued your build too closely) I'd be curious to see what you would do with your character for the next 5 levels. Your design plan seems to be to dip heavily in order to pick up front-loaded abilities you need to survive solo, but this locks you in to continuing 2 level dips or barbarian levels up until you qualify for a PrC. It seems like some of the abilities you acquire to survive at low levels would become sub optimal at higher levels, such as the Vigor aura (which would require you to take several minutes to rest and heal at higher levels, eating up valuable buff durations). Since you believe that noncasters are roughly equal to casters in power between levels 7 and 13 (roughly), how would your character maintain this power level?
BTW Meyer, did you ever update your character stats? I remember someone pointing out that you didn't meet the pre-reqs for Fire Riposte, and you said you were going to switch a feat out for a martial study, but I can't seem to find your updated stats.
Actually, no, I didn't make the change to the stats -- I only swapped out weapon focus for burning blade (one feat). This way, my original build stayed there.
Also, (since you pointed out that no one has critiqued your build too closely) I'd be curious to see what you would do with your character for the next 5 levels. Your design plan seems to be to dip heavily in order to pick up front-loaded abilities you need to survive solo, but this locks you in to continuing 2 level dips or barbarian levels up until you qualify for a PrC. It seems like some of the abilities you acquire to survive at low levels would become sub optimal at higher levels, such as the Vigor aura (which would require you to take several minutes to rest and heal at higher levels, eating up valuable buff durations). Since you believe that noncasters are roughly equal to casters in power between levels 7 and 13 (roughly), how would your character maintain this power level?
Someone else posted that no one critiqued my build too closely. I just commented on the single potion of fly - as a joke (since the character was built for the cr2 dungeon, no monster was left from the original encounter set).
Sure ... if you would like to see a higher level version of this character, I will post it sometime tomorrow -- to give you a hint I pick up pious templar and continue dipping ... my high saves and evasion/mettle make me harder to affect with spells. My various abilities make me a very versatile character. As I explained earlier in this post, the vigor is a way to benefit the party when appropriate. When we have time, why spend spells/charges on restoring hps when sitting around works just as well. In combat, it won't do much except if someone is in the negatives (but not dead), but it takes no action so is a win-win. As far as using up buffs. My character really didn't use any (one potion of enlarge person which might/might not have been needed, one potion of flight which was needed).
This character was built to show versatility in a noncasting melee character. It was not built to showcase the damage dealing powers of noncasters (however well it did that). It should be able to be dropped into any campaign (assuming the books it uses are allowed) easily.
This would be an example of metagaming for those interested.
I regard it more as a mistake for my equipment selection, since flying monsters are quite common and I should have thought about it.
As far as metagaming goes, I have chosen Venomfire for one of my 2 3rd level spell slots even when 3 out 5 encounters where immune to it. Do you call this metagaming?
Apart from this, thanks for responding
I think Meyers point about metagaming is that, in a real game, you would be expected to change your tactics to account for your mistakes. In a real game, you do not have the option of going back and changing your build. It's always said a casters versatility and ability to adapt to their enemies are one of the things that make them strong, but so far, all the casters are effectively cheating to get their ability to adapt (by going back and changing things they forgot to account for instead of actually adapting their tactics).
but so far, all the casters are effectively cheating to get their ability to adapt (by going back and changing things they forgot to account for instead of actually adapting their tactics).
I didn't. I simply had pointed out that DR 10/Evil doesn't apply to energy attacks, and had to change that. My spell list remained the same.
_______________________________________________________________
No Meyers, I still disagree with the way you do your math.
In my scenario, often I have 70+% chance of hitting or saving. I still count that as a failure. In my build, I Always counter anything less than a 95% chance (max) as a failure, and then combined percentages. The only time I guarenteed a hit when the odds were over 100%, and I think you should do it the same way I did.
2 attacks at 50% = 1 hit
1 attack at 90% = A miss in round 1.
I don't care about your explanation of "I had 80%+, therefore I suceed." By assuming a success in the first round the way you do, you significantly reduce the damage taken and the resources consumed. You should lose init until your odds of winning init are 100% compared to each creature you've rolled against, the way I do (IE: Encounter 1: 75% chance of winning=loss. Encounter 2: 40% chance of winning = win. Encounter 3: 85% chance of winning = win)
I move back 10 feet, since it cannot see me, this does not provoke.
Yes it does. The snake is within 5 feet of you, and scent says if target is within 5 feet, you know it's there.
It attacks me 2.5 damage, plus a DC 14 fort save (+4, 55% chance of making it, so I succeed).
Wrong, that'd be a fail.
My turn, I full attack it, using my bracers of quick strike. This gives me two attacks. We will assume one hits, and the other misses. I deal 23 hps of damage to it.
End of Round 1: Me: 23.9, It: 9
You have two hits at +11. 80% chance to hit AC 15. Divide by 2 for 50% miss chance.
40%/40%. Both those attacks miss.
And how are you getting 23 damage?
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
My CQF feat goes off, I do 21.7 damage, beating its grapple.
Really? What is that? Why is it an auto hit?
Round 1:
I heal 1 hp. Initiate Rabid Wolf Strike, power attack, dealing 31 damage to it. I then tumble out of the room using my flight speed. I am now outside the room, at least 30 feet away.
What? You're giving yourself flight still? It only lasts 5 minutes. All my 1 min/level spells lasted 1 encounter, since we can't know the spacing between them. Let's see you do the same.
(6d4 dc 17 (I save 35% of the time)) on me. I take 9.8 damage. Its breath weapon refreshes in 2 rounds (2.5)
Again, you give yourself the benefit of the doubt and not the monster. Assume you miss the first two times, like I did. You take 15 damage. 2 rounds later, you take 15 damage. 2 rounds later, you take 0 damage (Evasion, make the save).
Really, assuming to give yourself all the benefits seems ridiculous when you are trying to prove something against someone who assumed to give all the monsters all the benefits.
Originally Posted by Ikeren View Post
Round 2:
AC 21: Manticore: 2 claws (2d4+5) at +10, bite at +8. Claws = 45% chance, bite = 35% chance. We'll assume both claws hit.
Claw damage: average = 10. We'll assume one rolls higher (12) and one rolls lower (8)
Damage taken = 2
Your calculating your damage reduction in wrong. The manticore does an average of (0x7+1x2+2x2+3x1)/12 or something along those lines. the fact that its 2d4 and not a d8 makes it slightly more complicated.
I was calculating average miss chance for monsters, when miss got to 100%, they missed. Average hit chance for me, when hit chance got to 100%, I hit. Saves work the same way.
A manticores attack progression is
Claw/Claw/Bite, +10/+10/+8
Damage: 2d4+5 2d4+5 1d8+2
The bite attack inevitably cannot overcome DR 10/Evil
My AC is 23. The first attack has a 65% chance of missing, so it hits.
The second attack has a 130% chance of missing (since the first one didn't), so it misses.
Average damage is 10. However, since I have DR 10/Evil, assuming average damage benefits me. So I said "Alright, let's assume 1 rolls high, and 1 rolls lower. 2d4 averages to 5. I am pretty sure I get that right.
Meyers, I also question your use of the Tome of Battle. I've been looking over it, and manouvers to me appear to be very parallel to many other variant forms of magic. Indeed, I think it has been referred to as the "9th magic system".
1) Arcane
2) Divine
3) Psionic
4) Truenaming/Utterance Magic
5) Binding/Pact Magic
6) Incarnum
7) Invocations
8) Shadow Casting/Mysteries
9) Manouver Magic
On the Character Optimization forum here, we stand by the ruling "Casters are better than melee." But Tome of Battle really blurs those lines, giving Melee classes spell equivilent caster progressions, and the people on the Optimization forum have great respect for the casting power of Tome of Battle Characters. Indeed, someone that can cast heal 10 times per day? Why, that sounds a lot like a cleric or druid blowing a lot of spell slots. Nope, wait, it's a Master of Casting spells through hitting things.
Sounds like the Duskblade, doesn't it?
If you REALLY wanted to prove your hypothesis, you wouldn't use manouver magic. Here on the forums we already respect that as being the true way a melee should be built - someone who gets 6th level cleric spells infinite times per day.
I challenge you to build a true melee build and do the same thing, one that doesn't utilize any magic outside of items and feats.
I'd also like to know where your feats and items come from. Can you do this with the same unity of sources that a cleric can?
Of course, I truly doubt you'll take this challenge. As I truly doubt you'll run your melee character in a scenario where we give the enemies the benefit of the doubt, as I did. As I truly doubt you'll run CR6 encounters beside my level 5 cleric.
Animals won't come within 30' of a Wraith and become panicked if forced to approach. You're on your own against it.
I think they will if you give them the "attack" trick twice. They will attack "unnatural" things, then.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
Edit: Now that I look at the entry... that probably still wouldn't work for a wraith. It would just get them to attack skeletons and things.
1) The encounters are a fair representation of types of encounters a character might expect to consider.
2) Even if posters mess up, it proves that they aren't perfect optimizers, not that the class is underpowered.
That said, A few valid builds (my own included, unless anyone has any other rule concerns) have made it through the gauntlet. It doesn't actually show anything (Both classes can solo (rarely happens) 5 encounters (above normal) of their Challenge rating, each factor making the others harder).
I think Meyers has shown that a well build martial character can easily keep pace with a caster at low levels. I don't think he's shown that Martial Characters are more powerful than casters at low levels, even in a solo setting (which in and of itself is not a typical situation).
I think Meyers point about metagaming is that, in a real game, you would be expected to change your tactics to account for your mistakes. In a real game, you do not have the option of going back and changing your build. It's always said a casters versatility and ability to adapt to their enemies are one of the things that make them strong, but so far, all the casters are effectively cheating to get their ability to adapt (by going back and changing things they forgot to account for instead of actually adapting their tactics).
Kratch, Meyer,
After thinking about it, I think I agree with your point (that it is meta-gaming to change the build after the fact). There is, I think, some degree of lattitude (small changes that are made because of legality, or are clearly common-sense oversights).
That said, I think the fleshraker would easily win
Example Combat:
Round 1-4)
Baby Jesus looks evily at Manticore and readies an attack action. American Jesus Retreats, letting baby jesus do the dirty work.
Manticore launches spikes at Baby Jesus. The manticore can't hit baby jesus except on a natural 20, as the AC is too high.
Total damage after 4 rounds ~ 13.
Round 5-6)
Manticore attacks baby jesus, hitting 15% of the time for 10 damage = 1.5 damage per round.
Baby Jesus attacks with readied action, hitting 85% of the time for 1D6 + 8 + 5D6 + Poison = (29 + Poison)*.85 ~ 24 / round.
Round 7)
Manticore realizes this is a losing proposition and flees.
Once again, I'm not the best optimizer, but the Fleshrakers are so much better than the Manticore that there is no way it can win.
Best,
David
Yes it does. The snake is within 5 feet of you, and scent says if target is within 5 feet, you know it's there.
If he had total concealment, then he does not provoke an AOO, even if the snake does know what square he's in.
Meyers, I also question your use of the Tome of Battle. I've been looking over it, and manouvers to me appear to be very parallel to many other variant forms of magic. Indeed, I think it has been referred to as the "9th magic system".
1) Arcane
2) Divine
3) Psionic
4) Truenaming/Utterance Magic
5) Binding/Pact Magic
6) Incarnum
7) Invocations
8) Shadow Casting/Mysteries
9) Manouver Magic
On the Character Optimization forum here, we stand by the ruling "Casters are better than melee." But Tome of Battle really blurs those lines, giving Melee classes spell equivilent caster progressions, and the people on the Optimization forum have great respect for the casting power of Tome of Battle Characters. Indeed, someone that can cast heal 10 times per day? Why, that sounds a lot like a cleric or druid blowing a lot of spell slots. Nope, wait, it's a Master of Casting spells through hitting things.
Sounds like the Duskblade, doesn't it?
If you REALLY wanted to prove your hypothesis, you wouldn't use maneuver magic. Here on the forums we already respect that as being the true way a melee should be built - someone who gets 6th level cleric spells infinite times per day.
I challenge you to build a true melee build and do the same thing, one that doesn't utilize any magic outside of items and feats.
I'd also like to know where your feats and items come from. Can you do this with the same unity of sources that a cleric can?
Of course, I truly doubt you'll take this challenge. As I truly doubt you'll run your melee character in a scenario where we give the enemies the benefit of the doubt, as I did. As I truly doubt you'll run CR6 encounters beside my level 5 cleric.
I disagree.
His build is basically a melee build that isn't primarily a spellcaster (e.g., a caster of spells).
He is arguing that such a build outdoes spell casters at low levels. We are specifically trying to test that hypothesis at level 5.
I don't think a lot is to be gained by saying "make a build under an artificially constrained rules-set, and show that it beats a spellcaster". We already trivially know the answer to this challenge. Let's stick with the more interesting challenge.
Best,
David
Kratch, Meyer,
After thinking about it, I think I agree with your point (that it is meta-gaming to change the build after the fact). There is, I think, some degree of lattitude (small changes that are made because of legality, or are clearly common-sense oversights).
For legal reasons, I agree with changes (if it can't be done legally, it's not valid, change the build). Common sense oversights, I'm not so sure about. It can be argued that those oversights would have been noticed during gameplay prior to this encounter, and thus should be allowed, but on the flipside, your already benefiting from metagame knowledge of your opponents (Intentional or not), if you failed to notice it can fly and you can't (as an example) when you know what your facing, why should we believe you'd be observant enough/show enough forethought in a game to have prepared everything in advance without any foreknowledge?
I'm not saying that some of these common sense changes don't make sense, I'm just saying that trying to use them in the same situation that you discovered them is a little ... I don't know... unrealistic. By all means, if this continues, apply them to future incarnations of the builds
Show
That said, I think the fleshraker would easily win
Example Combat:
Round 1-4)
Baby Jesus looks evily at Manticore and readies an attack action. American Jesus Retreats, letting baby jesus do the dirty work.
Manticore launches spikes at Baby Jesus. The manticore can't hit baby jesus except on a natural 20, as the AC is too high.
Total damage after 4 rounds ~ 13.
Round 5-6)
Manticore attacks baby jesus, hitting 15% of the time for 10 damage = 1.5 damage per round.
Baby Jesus attacks with readied action, hitting 85% of the time for 1D6 + 8 + 5D6 + Poison = (29 + Poison)*.85 ~ 24 / round.
Round 7)
Manticore realizes this is a losing proposition and flees.
Once again, I'm not the best optimizer, but the Fleshrakers are so much better than the Manticore that there is no way it can win.
Best,
David
Common sense oversights, I'm not so sure about. ... why should we believe you'd be observant enough/show enough forethought in a game to have prepared everything in advance without any foreknowledge?
Well, "common sense" is a very gray area. I think if you have a lot of extra gold, a potion of healing is "common sense". Likewise, a wand of vigor (if you could use it).
Also, in terms of optimality, if an option is clearly better than what you have chosen, it is common sense to go with that option. The builds that are being posted aren't getting quite the preparation that "real" builds get, so I think a little fudge factor should be allowed. If it is allowed of both the casters and the non-casters, then it is reasonably "fair".
But, in terms of encounter-specific stuff ... that isn't clear.
Although I'm not disputing the win here (I agree you'll win against the manticore), I do have to ask, if it's failing to hit one of 2 targets, why would it not switch targets? They may only have an Int of 7, but thats enough to figure out to change targets. even an animal knows to pick off the weak members of a herd.
The Druid is as fast as the manticore, and sees it first (I did say the druid retreats in the explanation above). He can run away and the manticore will never catch him.
The only enemy left for the manticore to attack is the fleshraker.
Best,
David
If he had total concealment, then he does not provoke an AOO, even if the snake does know what square he's in.
I don't know where he got total concealment, being adjacent to a creature with scent.
I disagree.
His build is basically a melee build that isn't primarily a spellcaster (e.g., a caster of spells).
He is arguing that such a build outdoes spell casters at low levels. We are specifically trying to test that hypothesis at level 5.
I don't think a lot is to be gained by saying "make a build under an artificially constrained rules-set, and show that it beats a spellcaster". We already trivially know the answer to this challenge. Let's stick with the more interesting challenge.
Best,
David
Ah, but here's the crux of it of it. If we say "Oh, well, it is impossible for a melee build to compare to a caster build at low levels without tome of battle." how are we demonstrating melee being superior or equal? Theoretically, we should have a variety of melee builds that can do it, both without the Tome of Battle and with, as well as variety of caster builds that can do it.
I'm still waiting for Meyer to run the encounters using my "advantage goes to NPC system", and I am still waiting for him to offer up sourcing for much of his material, and I am still waiting to demonstrate my 5th level cleric taking on CR 6 challenges. (I won't pick the creatures myself, since that would be unreasonable.)
I am still waiting for him to offer up sourcing for much of his material,
If you don't know where any of his material comes from, just ask, and someone will volunteer it. I'm also willing.
Very few people have listed all the sources for their feats, spells, equipment, classes, etc. On the few occasions where it has come up, people asked, and others answered.
I am still waiting to demonstrate my 5th level cleric taking on CR 6 challenges. (I won't pick the creatures myself, since that would be unreasonable.)
True that. A few others are also waiting. The problem is that we need a "neutral party" to come up with the challenges. I'll think on it (since my build clearly isn't in the running).
Best,
David
For a series of ~CR 6 challenges, what do we think about:
--------------------------------------------------
1 encounter vs CR 5 where the opponent(s) are prepared and waiting in ambush (your opponent has heard stories of the tactics you used in the cave, and attempts to prepare accordingly)
1 encounter vs CR 7 where the character is prepared and can lay ambush
3 "normal" encounters where there is no obvious advantage
--------------------------------------------------
3 encounters vs 1 opponent
1 encounter vs 2 opponents
1 encounter vs 3 opponents
--------------------------------------------------
A mix of encounters in terms of mobility, immunities, ranged attacks, attacks which require saves vs. special abilities, etc
(The CR 5 challenge qualified:
Mobility = 2 fliers, one of whom was incorporeal
Immunities = Wraith and Rug
Ranged attacks = Dragon and Manticore
Saves vs special = primarily the wraith ... might have been nice to have a 2nd)
--------------------------------------------------
1-2 encounters which would clearly penalize a spellcaster
1-2 encounter which would clearly penalize a meleer
1-3 encounters where there isn't a vast difference. (There may be a small difference).
--------------------------------------------------
If we all agree with the structure, then it might reduce arguments later on. What do you all think? Are there other dimensions by which we'd like to use before choosing monsters?
Best,
David
I also want Meyers to agree on a system of amalgamating percentages that gives the enemies the advantage rather than him. It seems all too easy for a build that does lots of damage fast like his when he assumes the first attack in each sequence hits.
I also don't do much heavy melee optimization, so the following:
Close Quarter Fighting Feat
Draconic Aura: Vigor Feat (Gives a Dragon Shaman Aura at the cost of a feat, clearly)
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain Feat
Alternative Barbarian Class Feature Slashing Rage 1/day
Items:
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Desert Wind Cload (Fire Riposte) (Guessing Tome of Battle)
Thanks.
Yes it does. The snake is within 5 feet of you, and scent says if target is within 5 feet, you know it's there.
It does not matter, any cover denies AoOs, and Meyer's character has full cover in the darkness. Scent is not darkvision or blindsight.
I also want Meyers to agree on a system of amalgamating percentages that gives the enemies the advantage rather than him. It seems all too easy for a build that does lots of damage fast like his when he assumes the first attack in each sequence hits.
Well, my instinct is to use a strict accumulating 50% rule for both the characters and their challenges. It is hard to argue that unfairly favors any type or build.
As far as feat sources:
Close Quarter Fighting Feat
- Complete Warrior, p97
Draconic Aura: Vigor Feat (Gives a Dragon Shaman Aura at the cost of a feat, clearly)
- Dragon Magic, p16
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain Feat
- Don't know ... anyone else?
Alternative Barbarian Class Feature Slashing Rage 1/day
- Don't know ... anyone else?
Bracers of Quick Strike
- MIC
Boots of the Mountain King
- Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0), p. 130
Desert Wind Cload (Fire Riposte) (Guessing Tome of Battle)
- Tome of Battle.
Best,
David
I'm still waiting for Meyer to run the encounters using my "advantage goes to NPC system", and I am still waiting for him to offer up sourcing for much of his material, and I am still waiting to demonstrate my 5th level cleric taking on CR 6 challenges. (I won't pick the creatures myself, since that would be unreasonable.)
With rolling percentages, whether you set the arbitrary at 50% or at 100%, doesn't really matter except on the first turn, where it's impossible to succeed at anything if set to 100% (there is always a 5% miss chance. This absolutely obsoletes charge builds, as it becomes impossible to hit on a charge AKA, the whole point of the build). This may appear especially detrimental when casting spells on enemies (EDIT actually, It is quite the opposite, and nothing will ever succeed on it's first save, therfor, a casters first spell always wins the fight), but as most of these builds don't do that (their playing a more melee game with caster resources), it's actually more beneficial to casters, as their opponents will always fail on the first attack, giving them the opportunity to react on their turn with spells that don't have any chance of failure (Mirror image, displacement, Magic missle, etc as has been done). Setting the arbitrary point too low (50%) is making it too easy, as everything with even the most remote chance of success will hit rather quickly. Somewhere in the 75 range (give or take) is typically best, adding 100 to the number on each success (175, 275, etc).
Though, I have to say, complaining about how Meyer does his math when almost no-one else has done any math whatsoever (but has rather assumed their abilities allow them to succeed) seems a little shallow.
-----------------------
Due to Meyer not putting any mention/limit of the sort into his challenge, what I am about to ask is not a legitimate complaint, merely a query. Does using things that would typically not be allowed in a campaign (such as the otherworldly + ancestral alter self form, who's user even admitted would never get into a game, or fleshrakers (which is much more iffy on whether allowed in games or not) prove that casters are overall overpowered (or just that they have the most broken pieces?)? Again, as Meyer never put a limit on this being typical game builds rather then all out theoretical brokenness, this is not a complaint, merely a query.
With rolling percentages, whether you set the arbitrary at 50% or at 100%, doesn't really matter except on the first turn, where it's impossible to succeed at anything if set to 100% (there is always a 5% miss chance. This absolutely obsoletes charge builds, as it becomes impossible to hit on a charge AKA, the whole point of the build). This may appear especially detrimental when casting spells on enemies, but as most of these builds don't do that (their playing a more melee game with caster resources), it's actually more beneficial to casters, as their opponents will always fail on the first attack, giving them the opportunity to react on their turn with spells that don't have any chance of failure (Mirror image, displacement, Magic missle, etc as has been done). Setting the arbitrary point too low (50%) is making it too easy, as everything with even the most remote chance of success will hit rather quickly. Somewhere in the 75 range (give or take) is typically best, adding 100 to the number on each success (175, 275, etc).
Though, I have to say, complaining about how Meyer does his math when almost no-one else has done any math whatsoever (but has rather assumed their abilities allow them to succeed) seems a little shallow.
Ikeren's wonderful resolution method means the PCs (and their animal companions) will always fail the saving throws even against DC 2 spells. So countless low CR monsters automatically defeat his wonderful druid. A CR 3 Yeth Hound, for instance, will send the druid and his pet into a panicked state at 300 feet, with a laughable DC 11 will save.
No Meyers, I still disagree with the way you do your math.
In my scenario, often I have 70+% chance of hitting or saving. I still count that as a failure. In my build, I Always counter anything less than a 95% chance (max) as a failure, and then combined percentages. The only time I guarenteed a hit when the odds were over 100%, and I think you should do it the same way I did.
2 attacks at 50% = 1 hit
1 attack at 90% = A miss in round 1.
I don't care about your explanation of "I had 80%+, therefore I suceed." By assuming a success in the first round the way you do, you significantly reduce the damage taken and the resources consumed. You should lose init until your odds of winning init are 100% compared to each creature you've rolled against, the way I do (IE: Encounter 1: 75% chance of winning=loss. Encounter 2: 40% chance of winning = win. Encounter 3: 85% chance of winning = win)
I disagree. In all of this. However, if enough other posters request me to, then I will.
I assume that if I were to use this method, that this means that I no longer have to do weighted average (average damage times miss chance). I guarantee to you that this will cause me to deal more damage, as I will stagger my attacks/maneuvers to take advantage of this.
For intiative, this would mean that someone with a low init will beat someone with a high init which is counterintuitive.
I move back 10 feet, since it cannot see me, this does not provoke.
Yes it does. The snake is within 5 feet of you, and scent says if target is within 5 feet, you know it's there.
The snake is blind (so does not threaten me). It knows what square I am in (sure) but since it does not threaten me, it cannot take an AoO.
Additionally, since it does not have Combat Reflexes, it cannot take an AoO when it is flatfooted. This is two reasons why it cannot do this.
It attacks me 2.5 damage, plus a DC 14 fort save (+4, 55% chance of making it, so I succeed).
Wrong, that'd be a fail.
By my methods, this is a success, however by my methods the next one is a fail: End result, 1 success, 1 failure. EXACTLY like if it was using your method.
My turn, I full attack it, using my bracers of quick strike. This gives me two attacks. We will assume one hits, and the other misses. I deal 23 hps of damage to it.
End of Round 1: Me: 23.9, It: 9
You have two hits at +11. 80% chance to hit AC 15. Divide by 2 for 50% miss chance
40%/40%. Both those attacks miss.
And how are you getting 23 damage?
By your math, this is true, it is not true for my math. For me
50% (miss) + 50% (100% - hit) deals 80% of normal damage.
I am not sure now how I got 23 damage, I don't have my notes from that fight -- so I will need to redo that one, as I only see 20.4 damage when I redo the strike. But I am in Punishing Stance (as shown in the beginning of the thread, which increases my damage by 1d6, and I always (unless specified otherwise) power attack for 4 (+8 damage).
My CQF feat goes off, I do 21.7 damage, beating its grapple.
Really? What is that? Why is it an auto hit?
As I have said many times, it is the way I do battles. If you would like all battles to start out at "I miss, it misses", that sounds very boring.
Round 1:
I heal 1 hp. Initiate Rabid Wolf Strike, power attack, dealing 31 damage to it. I then tumble out of the room using my flight speed. I am now outside the room, at least 30 feet away.
What? You're giving yourself flight still? It only lasts 5 minutes. All my 1 min/level spells lasted 1 encounter, since we can't know the spacing between them. Let's see you do the same.
I already posted that I could do this -- however, you should probably tell mr (shield+protection from evil+scintillating scales+bulls strength) wizard about that rule as well.
If you count up the rounds I used and add in a couple extra rounds for exploring, i think i come in under 1 min/level. And, as I already posted, I had thought that fly was 10min/level.
(6d4 dc 17 (I save 35% of the time)) on me. I take 9.8 damage. Its breath weapon refreshes in 2 rounds (2.5)
Again, you give yourself the benefit of the doubt and not the monster. Assume you miss the first two times, like I did. You take 15 damage. 2 rounds later, you take 15 damage. 2 rounds later, you take 0 damage (Evasion, make the save).
??? According to you, I would need to reach 100% to use evasion, so it would need to breathe on me 3 times before it kicked in. Basically, using your method, I do not get to take any advantage of my feats. Btw ... when i take (65% of 6d4 (15) + 35% of nothing), it does not seem like I am giving myself advantages.
Really, assuming to give yourself all the benefits seems ridiculous when you are trying to prove something against someone who assumed to give all the monsters all the benefits.
Changing the rules after I run and then complaining that I am not following the new rules seems a bit off, don't you think? Especially when you do not level the same criticisms versus the other casters. (the guy who crafted all those pearls uses lots of touch attacks which auto-hit).
Meyers, I also question your use of the Tome of Battle. I've been looking over it, and manouvers to me appear to be very parallel to many other variant forms of magic. Indeed, I think it has been referred to as the "9th magic system".
1) Arcane
2) Divine
3) Psionic
4) Truenaming/Utterance Magic
5) Binding/Pact Magic
6) Incarnum
7) Invocations
8) Shadow Casting/Mysteries
9) Manouver Magic
On the Character Optimization forum here, we stand by the ruling "Casters are better than melee." But Tome of Battle really blurs those lines, giving Melee classes spell equivilent caster progressions, and the people on the Optimization forum have great respect for the casting power of Tome of Battle Characters. Indeed, someone that can cast heal 10 times per day? Why, that sounds a lot like a cleric or druid blowing a lot of spell slots. Nope, wait, it's a Master of Casting spells through hitting things.
ToB is a book for noncasters. Period.
If you REALLY wanted to prove your hypothesis, you wouldn't use manouver magic. Here on the forums we already respect that as being the true way a melee should be built - someone who gets 6th level cleric spells infinite times per day.
I challenge you to build a true melee build and do the same thing, one that doesn't utilize any magic outside of items and feats.
It is not magic -- it says so all over the book.
I refuse to accept your challenge for a build when you and I cannot agree on the rules to fight by. It would be a waste of my time. If I succeed, you can then discount my fight because of my math. I will not use your math (unless an overwhelming amount of other posters request me to) as it completely invalidates melee.
For instance. A 20th level frenzied berzerker (no pounce variant) who is frenzied/charging CANNOT HIT A FLATFOOTED LEVEL 1 COMMONER IN THE FIRST ROUND.
I'd also like to know where your feats and items come from. Can you do this with the same unity of sources that a cleric can?
Of course, I truly doubt you'll take this challenge. As I truly doubt you'll run your melee character in a scenario where we give the enemies the benefit of the doubt, as I did. As I truly doubt you'll run CR6 encounters beside my level 5 cleric.
You realize that your build cannot make it through the lower level dungeon? You have no way of affecting creatures immune to weapon damage. Additionally, you autolose to the mimic as you cannot beat its grapple score.
We should be able to take a caster and throw him into an encounter with everything stacked against him and he should still come out on top. We should put these casters through the same sort of hoops that fighters get put through in the fighter threads. You know... fighters are always fighting gargantuan quadruped mobile spellcasting sunder monsters in those threads.
Something like that, but for casters.
Ah, but here's the crux of it of it. If we say "Oh, well, it is impossible for a melee build to compare to a caster build at low levels without tome of battle." how are we demonstrating melee being superior or equal? Theoretically, we should have a variety of melee builds that can do it, both without the Tome of Battle and with, as well as variety of caster builds that can do it.
Noncasters were waiting for casters to catch up with them. This is why (I think) why no other noncaster builds have run it yet.
I'm still waiting for Meyer to run the encounters using my "advantage goes to NPC system", and I am still waiting for him to offer up sourcing for much of his material, and I am still waiting to demonstrate my 5th level cleric taking on CR 6 challenges. (I won't pick the creatures myself, since that would be unreasonable.)
You posted at 12.30am -- and then reposted at 2.30am. This gave me 2 hours -- while I was asleep. I am awake now and have already responded.
But I did post that you could not beat the lower level challenge.
Dear All,
For a series of ~CR 6 challenges, what do we think about:
--------------------------------------------------
1 encounter vs CR 5 where the opponent(s) are prepared and waiting in ambush (your opponent has heard stories of the tactics you used in the cave, and attempts to prepare accordingly)
1 encounter vs CR 7 where the character is prepared and can lay ambush
3 "normal" encounters where there is no obvious advantage
--------------------------------------------------
3 encounters vs 1 opponent
1 encounter vs 2 opponents
1 encounter vs 3 opponents
--------------------------------------------------
A mix of encounters in terms of mobility, immunities, ranged attacks, attacks which require saves vs. special abilities, etc
(The CR 5 challenge qualified:
Mobility = 2 fliers, one of whom was incorporeal
Immunities = Wraith and Rug
Ranged attacks = Dragon and Manticore
Saves vs special = primarily the wraith ... might have been nice to have a 2nd)
--------------------------------------------------
1-2 encounters which would clearly penalize a spellcaster
1-2 encounter which would clearly penalize a meleer
1-3 encounters where there isn't a vast difference. (There may be a small difference).
--------------------------------------------------
If we all agree with the structure, then it might reduce arguments later on. What do you all think? Are there other dimensions by which we'd like to use before choosing monsters?
Best,
David
The original CR2 challenge was very balanced as far as which group it penalized. But as I posted, I objected to some things, like replacing a choker (anti spellcaster) with a gray ooze (eats my stuff)
I'm not saying that some of these common sense changes don't make sense, I'm just saying that trying to use them in the same situation that you discovered them is a little ... I don't know... unrealistic. By all means, if this continues, apply them to future incarnations of the builds.
Generally speaking, I fully agree.However, what I'm trying to say here is, since I'm going for a Druid+Companion melee build, without ranged combat options, I probably have faced some flying encounters before this one.
Then it would only make sense to buy some potions of flying whenever there's the chance, and more so because I was expecting to face a Black Dragon.
My humble opinion is that this was on oversight on my part rather than metagaming; besides, I spent about 2 minutes to choose my equipment and I have some spare cash left.
Fly is a 1\min level potion, so drinking it when I see the Manticore would last to face the Dragon. (Swift Fly is not an option here, and neither Master Air, since Natural Spell is a 6th level feat)
I'm not trying to argue my point here; I'm just saying that VERY LITTLE common sense (and I am at fault here for not showing it, but again, if the druid was to be a real PC, I most likely have faced this problem before and I knew there was a black dragon coming) is required for this change in my equipment, and I believe this demonstrates a weakness in my choices, not in the Druid itself.
Thanks for your feedback
Kratch, Meyer,
After thinking about it, I think I agree with your point (that it is meta-gaming to change the build after the fact). There is, I think, some degree of lattitude (small changes that are made because of legality, or are clearly common-sense oversights).
That said, I think the fleshraker would easily winShow
Example Combat:
Round 1-4)
Baby Jesus looks evily at Manticore and readies an attack action. American Jesus Retreats, letting baby jesus do the dirty work.
Manticore launches spikes at Baby Jesus. The manticore can't hit baby jesus except on a natural 20, as the AC is too high.
Total damage after 4 rounds ~ 13.
Round 5-6)
Manticore attacks baby jesus, hitting 15% of the time for 10 damage = 1.5 damage per round.
Baby Jesus attacks with readied action, hitting 85% of the time for 1D6 + 8 + 5D6 + Poison = (29 + Poison)*.85 ~ 24 / round.
Round 7)
Manticore realizes this is a losing proposition and flees.
Generally speaking, I fully agree.However, what I'm trying to say here is, since I'm going for a Druid+Companion melee build, without ranged combat options, I probably have faced some flying encounters before this one.
Then it would only make sense to buy some potions of flying whenever there's the chance, and more so because I was expecting to face a Black Dragon.
My humble opinion is that this was on oversight on my part rather than metagaming; besides, I spent about 2 minutes to choose my equipment and I have some spare cash left.
Fly is a 1\min level potion, so drinking it when I see the Manticore would last to face the Dragon. (Swift Fly is not an option here, and neither Master Air, since Natural Spell is a 6th level feat)
I'm not trying to argue my point here; I'm just saying that VERY LITTLE common sense (and I am at fault here for not showing it, but again, if the druid was to be a real PC, I most likely have faced this problem before and I knew there was a black dragon coming) is required for this change in my equipment, and I believe this demonstrates a weakness in my choices, not in the Druid itself.
Thanks for your feedback
Spare cash is one thing "I will trade my animal companion's collar for something with flight" is something else. The animal companion's collar costs 5000 gp (from your character sheet) which is over 50% of your wealth, so you must have been saving up/etc to buy it which would explain why you might not have it.
Btw -- remember that barding costs more than normal armor.
Let me know when you are ready for me to examine your character / tactics.
Well, my instinct is to use a strict accumulating 50% rule for both the characters and their challenges. It is hard to argue that unfairly favors any type or build.
As far as feat sources:
Improved Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain Feat
- Don't know ... anyone else?
Alternative Barbarian Class Feature Slashing Rage 1/day
- Don't know ... anyone else?
Boots of the Mountain King
- Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0), p. 130
Improved Weapon focus -- this should originally been "Weapon Focus" -- I wrote it down wrong -- however this changed to "Martial Study: Burning Blade" as I needed that as a requirement for my Fire Riposte (legality issue).
Alternate Barbarian Class Feature: Slashing Rage 1/day
Unearthed Arcana
Boots of the Mountain King:
MIC -- however, this item was not used in the adventure as there was no rubble/etc listed which impeded the build. It was included there as something that I think charging builds need. This is similar to my skill tricks (most of which I didn't use)
Barding: Twice as much for medium creatures, four times as much for large creatures.
Many Thanks. I'll update the Druid soon with a more carefully chosen equipment.
How much more does barding cost exactly, please?
PHB page 123. Just twice as much than for a human, since the fleshraker is non-humanoid but still medium. So 2,000 gold + magic.
Maybe worth it, since the fleshraker has very good Dex. Wearing leather would mean losing two points of AC.
Edit: too slow!
Thanks for reading, and please point out if there's something wrong or missing.
Warbeast template is 3.0
It would seem to me that if casters were truly as overpowered as they appear to be on these boards, then it wouldn't be such a process to demonstrate them as such.
We should be able to take a caster and throw him into an encounter with everything stacked against him and he should still come out on top. We should put these casters through the same sort of hoops that fighters get put through in the fighter threads. You know... fighters are always fighting gargantuan quadruped mobile spellcasting sunder monsters in those threads.
Something like that, but for casters.
Thats the problem with this whole thread, MW said earlier that brute force is the only way to show power. He quickly dismissed the alter self and burrow through to the dragon technique, dismissed STANDARD familiar usage, and refuses to even examine a build unless it has the things he wants. He even tries to say that his melee guy offers more to a party than a wizard can with Alter Self. Really? What about all of the 1st level spells that wizards get? Can you identify items, or how about even Detect Magic or poison? Effectively, he doesn't understand any basic supposition about how to be a caster. He then arbitrarily decides what should and shouldn't count as success.
It seems to make no difference that the casters are not using their best options, but are instead taking on the fighter's role completely. The smart caster uses his familiar to scout out the entire cave complex, then he rests for a day and prepares the exact spells he needs to handle every obstacle. There is no chance for the enemies to know what is coming. The smart caster begins by killing the dragon and then resting again before taking out the other challenges in reverse order and taking as much time as needed. A caster can probably make it through this entire "gauntlet" without being touched if they so wanted to, but people are trying to beat him at HIS own game instead of beating the gauntlet.
Even his melee character was unoptimized. I am wondering how much longer this farcical debate(which doesn't belong on this board anyway) will continue.
-AS-
Thats the problem with this whole thread, MW said earlier that brute force is the only way to show power. He quickly dismissed the alter self and burrow through to the dragon technique, dismissed STANDARD familiar usage, and refuses to even examine a build unless it has the things he wants. He even tries to say that his melee guy offers more to a party than a wizard with Alter Self. Really? Can you identify items, or how about even Detect Magic or poison? Effectively, he doesn't understand any basic supposition about how to be a caster. He then arbitrarily decides what should and shouldn't count as success.
Lets look at your statements.
1) Dismissed the Alter Self / Burrow through the dragon technique:
This was shown to not work (caster is burrowing, sticks his head up -- and gets WHACKED).
2) Dismissed standard familiar usage:
Care to explain what I dismissed? I acknowledged that the familiar could scout.
3) Refusing to examine a build unless it has the things I want:
A build includes Spells/Feats/Stats/Equipment/etc ... if it doesn't have these things, then it is not a build to examine. Or do you disagree?
If you mean I refuse to examine a build which does not follow the posted rules of character creation (the infinite wish loop), how is this bad?
4) What I said is that, other than alter self, what does the posted wizard bring to the party. He did not include a spell book or skills. That wizard could detect magic (as all wizards have all cantrips in their spellbook) but not identify (no pearls bought, the spell is not in the spellbook), etc.
My character can heal the party (slowly), has UMD, social skills (Intimidate), and other options.
5) Arbitrarily? If you follow the rules, and have a valid post/tactics, then it is a success. The rules are arbitrary, the results from the rules are anything but arbitrary.
It seems to make no difference that the casters are not using their best options, but are instead taking on the fighter's role completely. The smart caster uses his familiar to scout out the entire cave complex, then he rests for a day and prepares the exact spells he needs to handle every obstacle.
So use your best options. That is what I have asked for this entire thread. I mention that I have no problem with the wizard divining/scouting -- as long as you show HOW you do it.
I did not ask for people to take the fighter role. The Pearl guy (using spells as a wizard does) is just as viable as the alterself guy for showcasing power. But, the builds need to do what the posters say that they do (no using prot-evil to make yourself immune to a wraith/etc)
There is no chance for the enemies to know what is coming. The smart caster begins by killing the dragon and then resting again before taking out the other challenges in reverse order and taking as much time as needed. A caster can probably make it through this entire "gauntlet" without being touched if they so wanted to, but people are trying to beat him at HIS own game instead of beating the gauntlet.
If people are choosing to act in certain ways, that is their option. I have never asked them to. Additionally, since there are no cool points awarded, just pass/fail, it doesnt matter how they BEAT the encounter, but they have to beat it, not just bypass it. Since there was no limitations on things, a caster could nova on the manticore, go back to town (sleep), nova on the snake, go back to town (sleep), etc ... AND THAT WOULD SKILL COUNT.
Even his melee character was unoptimized. I am wondering how much longer this farcical debate(which doesn't belong on this board anyway) will continue.
-AS-
I disagree ... that character was optimized to the things I wanted it to be able to do. Whether or not it is optimized to the things others think it should be is not the point.
For instance, a wizard is rarely an optimized healbot.
Most of the time, when noncasters are posted, the rebuttals are "but what else do you bring to the table" or "talk about a one-trick pony" ... the character I posted can do a lot of things. So I proactively avoided that contention.
Also, I was asking for OPTIMIZED (overpowered) casters. What other board should I go to so that I can find an OPTIMIZED CHARACTER?
Your Alter Self disagreement has already been shown to be nonfactual. Sticking your head out of stone and looking around in no way grants an opponent an immediate attack, especially considering you already know where it is via your scouting familiar. You refuse to put any of the pieces of the puzzle together yourself, instead demanding that everyone else do all the work.
As you point out yourself, even a wizard without a listed spellbook brings things to the party that your character cannot do(though you initially dismissed this).
Your healing capability is laughable(and duplicable by any character), Intimidate becomes something valuable in your character(for some reason) and you have UMD? That is your argument?
No one should have to explain to you in a round by round manner how basic wizards tactics work. If you don't understand that sort of thing, then you should not be asking questions about optimized casters.
For example:
Wizard(again it is unnecessary to draw a complete build for the exercise) has his familiar go into the cave to scout(how about invisibly for fun), while this is going on, the wizard is burrowing underground receiving empathic information from the familiar that lets the wizard know exactly where all of the enemies are. Wizard uses any 1 of a million tactics for killing a weak dragon(Shivering Touch from earlier was a good idea). Wizards knows where all the other creatures in the cave are already via scouting. Using all magic missiles, the wizard kills the rug. Wizard does the same to snake. Depending on whats been used, the wizard can engage the manticore, or rest. If resting is the way to go, the next morning the familiar checks things out, and then the wizard(who is invisible) blows all of his spells summoning creatures to swarm and destroy the manticore. In most of these situations the wizard never even gets close to his opponent or is visible(since none of this is complete, I can only assume you will address nothing mentioned, as usual)
Also, earlier you specifically stated that this was about brute force, are you changing that now so that intelligent casters can bypass encounters when they want and still count as beating the gauntlet(as long as everything dies in the end)?
And you overestimate the intelligence of creatures. Int of 7 in no way means that a manticore will suddenly realize that a dinosaur is an animal companion and not just an advanced monster. The dragon we are talking about here is by far less intelligent than the wizard going against him. So sometimes you should probably give the benefit of the doubt to the more intelligent creature and not just assume that every monster in the game is smart.
I know you will say for me to make up a silly character with all of your little details on them, but by and large that is unnecessary. If you don't believe casters are overpowered(at all levels) compared to noncasters then there is nothing someone here will be able to do to explain it to you.
Try some fair reading and judging of what people are explaining here instead of being solely motivated by nitpicking at singular details and ignoring everything else.
-AS-
Thats the problem with this whole thread, MW said earlier that brute force is the only way to show power.
I believe he said thats how he wanted to gage power in this debate/thread. He did not say this was the only way to gage it, in fact, I believe (ether this thread or it's counterpart), he lists 3 ways to gage power, and choose this particular method as the easiest to ascertain.
He quickly dismissed the alter self and burrow through to the dragon technique,
I believe he merely noted there are flaws to that tactic, and It does not accomplish the goals set out AKA, it would not get earn xp, as defeating the enemy is what earns xp for these encounters. Saying otherwise would be like going from a dungeon entrance, straight down the hall, never opening a single door, then *****ing at a DM because he didn't award xp for what was behind those doors.
dismissed STANDARD familiar usage,
I believe it was me who first demonstrated there were issues/dangers involved in using the familiar to scout. At no point is this the same as dismissing it (look up the word if you don't believe me).
and refuses to even examine a build unless it has the things he wants.
If it's not a complete build, then why should he look at it? it's incomplete! Otherwise, He has actually been asking if they are ready to be critiqued (Not the same as refusing, in fact, it's rather a curtsy, giving them the chance to re-evaluate it).
Effectively, he doesn't understand any basic supposition about how to be a caster.
I challenge that it is those who claim casters are overpowered that don't understand what it is to be a caster. All to often limitations and weaknesses are ignored or forgotten with regards to the claims made by avid pro-casters. It is often claimed casters can do anything, and leave non-casters in the dust while doing so. That assertion has been challenged, and now your crying foul because we don't just assume your right? your claiming we're dismissing option because we can demonstrate they aren't as efficient as you previously believed (never claimed scouting with the bat wouldn't work, I just noted that it wasn't just jackass DM's that would attack it, and that the bat was nether as good at scouting as the poster believe as invulnerable to detection. These are not the same as saying it doesn't work)
He then arbitrarily decides what should and shouldn't count as success.
Care to quote an example of this? If your referring to him not accepting "I'm a supercaster and thus, I enter the fight and win without question or need to demonstrate how I do so", then I'm not sure what to say. if your referring to his checking the math, well, no math has been provided yet, so thats obviously not it.
It seems to make no difference that the casters are not using their best options, but are instead taking on the fighter's role completely.
I actually point that out, that casters are attempting to do this gish style rather then using the options claimed to be their bread and butter. I was told that there is little point using save or suck without someone there to assist the caster (which wouldn't really demonstrate that casters are overpowered), so they are opting to use other options.
The smart caster uses his familiar to scout out the entire cave complex, then he rests for a day and prepares the exact spells he needs to handle every obstacle. There is no chance for the enemies to know what is coming. The smart caster begins by killing the dragon and then resting again before taking out the other challenges in reverse order and taking as much time as needed. A caster can probably make it through this entire "gauntlet" without being touched if they so wanted to, but people are trying to beat him at HIS own game instead of beating the gauntlet.
Prove it. There is nothing in Meyers rules that prevents you from doing this, though keep in mind, Meyer was able to do the entire thing in less then an hour, taking three days to accomplish the same feat isn't likely to demonstrate any superiority (I suspect this is why this method hasn't been used)
Even his melee character was unoptimized. I am wondering how much longer this farcical debate(which doesn't belong on this board anyway) will continue.
-AS-
If his character is unoptimized, and yet is doing as well as these fleshraker druids and otherworldly ancestral alter selfed, scintillating scaled casters, doesn't that say something for non-casters?
stuff
Whoa, chill out ...
Another question. Can we buy partially charged wands?
Magic Item Compendium gives rules on buying partially charged wands.
If you look at pg 215 of the DMG, you'll see that the caster level listed is not a prerequisite: it only exists for the purpose of detect magic and dispel magic. Prerequisites are explicitly listed directly after the caster level of the item.
That you have to meet the caster level of an item is a common misconception based on a common muddled reading of the third paragraph under Creating Magic Items on page 288, where it says the two primary factors are caster level of creator and the level of spell or spells put into them. Most people skim over that and assume that those are prerequisites, but it fairly obviously refers to item creation costs.
You know, I am reading page 215, and this is what it says:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. [...] For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
Pearls of power have a CL 17. I don't see how someone without CL 17+ can craft them under the text of page 215. Has this been errated?
I believe he said thats how he wanted to gage power in this debate/thread. He did not say this was the only way to gage it, in fact, I believe (ether this thread or it's counterpart), he lists 3 ways to gage power, and choose this particular method as the easiest to ascertain.
That is exactly what I said. He chose brute force as the method.
I believe he merely noted there are flaws to that tactic, and It does not accomplish the goals set out AKA, it would not get earn xp, as defeating the enemy is what earns xp for these encounters. Saying otherwise would be like going from a dungeon entrance, straight down the hall, never opening a single door, then *****ing at a DM because he didn't award xp for what was behind those doors.
Again, he is altering the discourse and you are ignoring the point. He is assuming a start at the beginning and move through the challenges to get to the BBEG(the dragon). I go straight there and kill the BBEG while he is still goofing around on minions.
I believe it was me who first demonstrated there were issues/dangers involved in using the familiar to scout. At no point is this the same as dismissing it (look up the word if you don't believe me).
Those issues were then proven to be incorrect.
If it's not a complete build, then why should he look at it? it's incomplete! Otherwise, He has actually been asking if they are ready to be critiqued (Not the same as refusing, in fact, it's rather a curtsy, giving them the chance to re-evaluate it).
Why waste time building something when most of it is superfluous to the issue at hand? Using items like the fiery riposte item and healing belt are not non-caster issues, they are items. If I was really bored I would copy his characters gear, throw it on a wizard and again, kill everything in this silly gauntlet.
I challenge that it is those who claim casters are overpowered that don't understand what it is to be a caster. All to often limitations and weaknesses are ignored or forgotten with regards to the claims made by avid pro-casters. It is often claimed casters can do anything, and leave non-casters in the dust while doing so. That assertion has been challenged, and now your crying foul because we don't just assume your right? your claiming we're dismissing option because we can demonstrate they aren't as efficient as you previously believed (never claimed scouting with the bat wouldn't work, I just noted that it wasn't just jackass DM's that would attack it, and that the bat was nether as good at scouting as the poster believe as invulnerable to detection. These are not the same as saying it doesn't work)
Actually, you are misconstruing what I said. He does not understand what it is to be a caster. Not optimized, overpowered, etc, but just a caster. Without a basic understanding and cmprehension of the game rules, there is no point in trying to point by point explain how a wizard works in D&D.
Care to quote an example of this? If your referring to him not accepting "I'm a supercaster and thus, I enter the fight and win without question or need to demonstrate how I do so", then I'm not sure what to say. if your referring to his checking the math, well, no math has been provided yet, so thats obviously not it.
Not accepting the ability to skip encounters as a powerful ability. Not acknowledging anything about how the casters presented have worked. Note, no one harassed him about his equipment or other minute details. You accept what you are given and judge. He simply looks for an error and discounts the entire thing.
I actually point that out, that casters are attempting to do this gish style rather then using the options claimed to be their bread and butter. I was told that there is little point using save or suck without someone there to assist the caster (which wouldn't really demonstrate that casters are overpowered), so they are opting to use other options.
As he said brute force was the standard, people are using brute force. Nothing to do with save or suck.
Prove it. There is nothing in Meyers rules that prevents you from doing this, though keep in mind, Meyer was able to do the entire thing in less then an hour, taking three days to accomplish the same feat isn't likely to demonstrate any superiority (I suspect this is why this method hasn't been used)
Are we in a race now? If taking your time doesn't matter why pretend that it does? Would you prefer the wizard to breeze through all of the battles in a couple of minutes?
If his character is unoptimized, and yet is doing as well as these fleshraker druids and otherworldly ancestral alter selfed, scintillating scaled casters, doesn't that say something for non-casters?
Not really. It says that via careful item selection and a gauntlet intended to display the strength of brute force that a brute force based character can do well. Seems pretty obvious in all reality. How about throw in some traps, or terrain issues, or monsters with an int over 10(aside from the wraith and his 32 hp) and we'll see what happens. Thats almost like saying a dungeon populated by solely sneak attackable creatures that contains a lot of traps would work out well for a rogue. In addition, I think his math has already been pointed to as heavily weighted in his favor.
-AS-
Please do not continually make yourself foolish by amending your statements like this.
Your Alter Self disagreement has already been shown to be nonfactual.
What disagreement? The one where I said that halflings cannot change two size categories? The one where I was not aware of what type (outsider) a nephram was?
I said other than Alter self (which allows for lots of versatility) what does the posted wizard bring to the party? Can you link to any statement that I make which contradicts this?
Sticking your head out of stone and looking around in no way grants an opponent an immediate attack, especially considering you already know where it is via your scouting familiar. You refuse to put any of the pieces of the puzzle together yourself, instead demanding that everyone else do all the work.
Sticking your head out is either a move action, or a 5' adjustment (unsure). At that point in time, it is time to roll initiative.
I do not demand that people do all the work. As you have seen, I have taken posted tactics (Dread necromancer for instance) and shown them not to work. I frequently have to do this.
As you point out yourself, even a wizard without a listed spellbook brings things to the party that your character cannot do(though you initially dismissed this).
When did I say this (unless you are talking about alter self and cantrips)?
Your healing capability is laughable(and duplicable by any character), Intimidate becomes something valuable in your character(for some reason) and you have UMD? That is your argument?
If my healing capacity is so laughable, then why was it called overpowered at low levels multiple times? How is it easily duplicated by any character? Show me any character currently posted who can do it?
Initimidate might not be valuable, but it is something else I bring to the table, along with UMD.
No one should have to explain to you in a round by round manner how basic wizards tactics work. If you don't understand that sort of thing, then you should not be asking questions about optimized casters.
How could I get this information if I do not ask for it.
Also, think back to how many casters posted tactics that DID NOT WORK. Then please explain to me how I should KNOW which "I cast X spell and auto-win" works and doesn't.
For example:
Wizard(again it is unnecessary to draw a complete build for the exercise) has his familiar go into the cave to scout(how about invisibly for fun), while this is going on, the wizard is burrowing underground receiving empathic information from the familiar that lets the wizard know exactly where all of the enemies are. Wizard uses any 1 of a million tactics for killing a weak dragon(Shivering Touch from earlier was a good idea). Wizards knows where all the other creatures in the cave are already via scouting. Using all magic missiles, the wizard kills the rug. Wizard does the same to snake. Depending on whats been used, the wizard can engage the manticore, or rest. If resting is the way to go, the next morning the familiar checks things out, and then the wizard(who is invisible) blows all of his spells summoning creatures to swarm and destroy the manticore. In most of these situations the wizard never even gets close to his opponent or is visible(since none of this is complete, I can only assume you will address nothing mentioned, as usual)
That would be a good example of scouting for the wizard. It would also be good tactics (this would be the "wizard can even nova and then rest" technique i mentioned a few posts back).
However, no one has done this yet.
Also, earlier you specifically stated that this was about brute force, are you changing that now so that intelligent casters can bypass encounters when they want and still count as beating the gauntlet(as long as everything dies in the end)?
If an intelligent caster beats all enemies then he used brute force to win. (even if brute force is a ray of stupidity + coup de grace) Nothing has changed.
Intelligent casters can only bypass the encounters if they show how they did (like you did above). This has been mentioned / implied for about 200 posts by now.
And you overestimate the intelligence of creatures. Int of 7 in no way means that a manticore will suddenly realize that a dinosaur is an animal companion and not just an advanced monster. The dragon we are talking about here is by far less intelligent than the wizard going against him. So sometimes you should probably give the benefit of the doubt to the more intelligent creature and not just assume that every monster in the game is smart.
Will the Int 7 barbarian be able to? Then the int 7 manticore should be able to.
I believe he merely noted there are flaws to that tactic, and It does not accomplish the goals set out AKA, it would not get earn xp, as defeating the enemy is what earns xp for these encounters. Saying otherwise would be like going from a dungeon entrance, straight down the hall, never opening a single door, then *****ing at a DM because he didn't award xp for what was behind those doors.
According to DMG - bypassing encounters can give XP if the goal was to get past where the encounter was.
Gak! Having trouble finding the quote in SRD - but it is in the DMG pg 36 under "Experience Awards" it reads:
You must decide when a challenge has been overcome. Usually this is simple to do. Did the PC's defeat the enemy in battle? Then they met the challenge and earned experience points. Other times it can be trickier. Suppose the PC's sneak past the sleeping minotaur to get into the magical vault - did they overcome the minotaur example? If their goal was to get into the vault and the minotaur was the guardian, then the answer is probably yes. It's up to you to make such judgements. - whew.
Now it is debatable whether getting past the encounter was the actual goal - but suggesting that getting past the encounter should never grant you XP isn't right either. Also - with MW as the one making the decision - we are hardly getting a non-biased judgement
I only bring this up because I had personal experience with it last time I played my "Godlike Conjurer" character. We were travelling in the Demonweb and a demon was sniping at us through a hole in the web. I placed a wall of stone like a Manhole Cover on the hole and we travelled past. As our goal was not to defeat the creature (there's infinite #'s of them in the Abyss anyways) - it was to continue on our Quest - so we were entitled to XP for the encounter.
I challenge that it is those who claim casters are overpowered that don't understand what it is to be a caster. All to often limitations and weaknesses are ignored or forgotten with regards to the claims made by avid pro-casters. It is often claimed casters can do anything, and leave non-casters in the dust while doing so.
As you know Kratch I love casters - but the myth that they can be a solo party does deserve challenging. Casters still need the Glass Cannons and the Big Stupid Fighters to be Gods. By themselves - the can be passable - but hardly overpowered (or very smart)
I was told that there is little point using save or suck without someone there to assist the caster (which wouldn't really demonstrate that casters are overpowered), so they are opting to use other options.
Which is why this thread will never really go into the power of casters. The best power of a caster is to play Chess with his peons against the enemy. Take away the Peons - he's diminished.
I'm not convinced my Summoner build couldn't defeat all the challenges given - but honestly, I agree with dispelling the "Caster's are all things at all times" myth - so there's really no point. All it would prove is that a Summoner is an alternative to a fighter - which we already know. Certainly doesn't prove any kind of "overpoweredness" and I'm reluctant to take action which would support a position I disagree with - I've made that mistake too many times!
Those issues were then proven to be incorrect.
Actually almost everything Meyer has said has been correct according to RAW.
Most of the casters posted had HUGE, GLARING, OBVIOUS mistakes and misconceptions in their builds (not to mention they were often incomplete) and the working of their spells. Once going to the math and the real working of the spells/abilities, we all saw how those casters got massacred by the encounters that Mayer's non-caster beat rather easily.
Why waste time building something when most of it is superfluous to the issue at hand? Using items like the fiery riposte item and healing belt are not non-caster issues, they are items. If I was really bored I would copy his characters gear, throw it on a wizard and again, kill everything in this silly gauntlet.
Wow, maybe because blanket statements are useless and often false?
Like Mayer has shown us again and again right here.
And yet, you are still saying "it is obvious casters are better" and "we don't need to show you". Even after all these pages and only a couple casters really beating the gauntlet respecting the rules of D&D? (And only one really doing it without a major expenditure of resources).
And the other claim you do is that casters can do it by:
a) Taking several days, or
b) Bypassing most of the encounters with magic
Option a) clearly shows the casters are weaker than Meyer's warrior, which got through the critters in minutes.
Option b) earns the caster far less xp (arguable) and treasure (certainly) than to Meyer's warrior, although it is a win too. On the other hand avoiding the fights it is nothing a commoner cannot do with a potion of invisibility, so it shows only that some characters need to avoid encounters to survive. Hardly something that shows any superiority.
Why waste time building something when most of it is superfluous to the issue at hand? Using items like the fiery riposte item and healing belt are not non-caster issues, they are items. If I was really bored I would copy his characters gear, throw it on a wizard and again, kill everything in this silly gauntlet.
Fiery riposte requires a feat (martial study) based on its prereq's
Healing belt is fine.
Spiked Chain required a feat (or a -4 to hit, plus mine is medium sized).
However, Fiery Riposte and Healing belt only help if you are hit, which the AC30+ creatures aren't.
Actually, you are misconstruing what I said. He does not understand what it is to be a caster. Not optimized, overpowered, etc, but just a caster. Without a basic understanding and cmprehension of the game rules, there is no point in trying to point by point explain how a wizard works in D&D.
Um. Can you point to any post I wrote where I do not understand the game mechanics of casting/preparing/etc spells? I believe I talk about the perils of casting in a grapple, the need for spell components, etc. I also talk about the number of spells per day of a 7th level general wizard. This demonstrates a better than basic understanding of the game mechanics of casting.
Optimized tactics of optimized casters is what I came here to get. If I knew all of them, then I would not need to ask.
Not acknowledging anything about how the casters presented have worked. Note, no one harassed him about his equipment or other minute details. You accept what you are given and judge. He simply looks for an error and discounts the entire thing.
Look at my history of showing major errors in spellcaster builds which means that they cannot finish the cave. When the issue is minor, we continue with the new information (read my multiple posts where I go through the battles, round by round).
Are we in a race now? If taking your time doesn't matter why pretend that it does? Would you prefer the wizard to breeze through all of the battles in a couple of minutes?
The Druid + animal companion (which I have not examined yet) went through this cave faster than I did. What he was saying, was that if your wizard shows that he can beat the cave by taking one CR5 per day, and a non-caster takes on 5 cr5s, then most people would think that the wizard is not overpowered compared to that noncaster.
Not really. It says that via careful item selection and a gauntlet intended to display the strength of brute force that a brute force based character can do well.
My equipment is actually not that well selected for this encounter. I would much rather buy 10 wands of faith healing (10 chargers, per MIC). This is the same price as the healing belt. My UMD allows me to use them (I have a failure rate, but chances are that I can get more than 5 successes before I roll 10 1's). My boots of the mountain king are not used (no rubble) but they were needed for character completeness.
Remember, this character was designed before the enemies were chosen.
Seems pretty obvious in all reality. How about throw in some traps, or terrain issues, or monsters with an int over 10(aside from the wraith and his 32 hp) and we'll see what happens.
I discuss traps in an earlier post. Terrain issues are handled by my boots (or, depending on the time involved, by the potion of flight).
Thats almost like saying a dungeon populated by solely sneak attackable creatures that contains a lot of traps would work out well for a rogue. In addition, I think his math has already been pointed to as heavily weighted in his favor.
Quite a number of people disagree with you on the math issue.
Additionally, please try to keep this more civil. Several of us are enjoying the discussion and would like to see it continue.
No one should have to explain to you in a round by round manner how basic wizards tactics work. If you don't understand that sort of thing, then you should not be asking questions about optimized casters.
Considering how many of those wizard tactics have been shown to have issues, yah actually, a round by round explanation of those tactics is needed to prove they actually work. Lets take a look at what you listed below and see the errors, shall we?
For example:
Wizard(again it is unnecessary to draw a complete build for the exercise) has his familiar go into the cave to scout (how about invisibly for fun),
Invis increases it's odds of success monumentally. But the snake still has sent, and the familiar would have no reason to know the rug was a fake.
while this is going on, the wizard is burrowing underground receiving empathic information from the familiar that lets the wizard know exactly where all of the enemies are.
you are aware empathic is emotions, not telepathy. There is no way your familiar can give you exact locations. It can't even tell you what it's facing, only a sense of fear, anguish or concern. As I don't see any mention of being able to exactly pinpoint where your familiar is ether, there is no way, short of periodically popping your head up, to get intel from your familiar if your burrowing. The previous user of the familiar to scout was actually having his familiar come back to give him the intel, hence why this was never mentioned then.
Wizard uses any 1 of a million tactics for killing a weak dragon(Shivering Touch from earlier was a good idea).
While the dragon sat there and took it? or did the dragon fight back? If so, was the fighting back enough to kill you? what is the tactics you used, since you can't cast spells as a worm like thoqqua, you'll need to unburrow and dismiss the alter self spell (standard action), then I assume you'll want your resist energy up, theres another standard action (unless you choose to put it up before scouting) and second level spell. Then theres the spectral hand (another standard action and second level spell). all this is done presumably where the dragon can't hear you with it's rather decent listen score, despite the fact you were moving while your familiar was scouting, therefor you have no way of knowing where your going unless you cheat and think empathy and telepathy are the same thing (not to mention the dragon has blindsense and may detect your familiar and begin combat before your even close, and certainly before your ready). You've used a total of 4 2nd level spells (Invis, alter self, resist energy and spectral hand) before you even began attacking.
See why we ask for a play by play, because some of you really don't understand casters as well as you think, despite your arrogance. Your above description of a standard wizard tactic demonstrates your failure to understand a wizard in real play.
Wizards knows where all the other creatures in the cave are already via scouting.
Not with the way you were scouting, and not the rug, you'd have no idea about the rug.
Using all magic missiles, the wizard kills the rug. Wizard does the same to snake.
How many spells does that use up, including your scouting and dragon fight spells?
Depending on whats been used, the wizard can engage the manticore, or rest. If resting is the way to go, the next morning the familiar checks things out, and then the wizard(who is invisible) blows all of his spells summoning creatures to swarm and destroy the manticore. In most of these situations the wizard never even gets close to his opponent or is visible(since none of this is complete, I can only assume you will address nothing mentioned, as usual)
What level spell and critters you summoning to fight the manticore? remember, it's a flyer. Keep in mind, the manticore has both scent and track in case you fail to kill it with your summons.
You still haven't addressed the wraith, nor the damage sustained in the dragon fight (unless you seriously believe you can get all your spells off to kill it before it even knows your there).
Even if everything goes as planned, you've burned 2 days. If everything works as you said, It is a success, but certainly not an overpowered one. But, I highly doubt everything will go as well as you think.
PS: Have I addressed enough of your post to satisfy you?
Also, earlier you specifically stated that this was about brute force, are you changing that now so that intelligent casters can bypass encounters when they want and still count as beating the gauntlet(as long as everything dies in the end)?
Bypassing encounters is not defeating them. I believe he is saying you can pick and choose what order you fight things in (if your able to scout properly, which is doable, but not using the above tactic), but until everything is defeated, the gauntlet is incomplete
And you overestimate the intelligence of creatures. Int of 7 in no way means that a manticore will suddenly realize that a dinosaur is an animal companion and not just an advanced monster.
It is an animal out of region and it has BARDING. It is clearly not a wandering advanced monster. As the other prey ran away, it is clearly not a mount or a melee's combat pet.
The dragon we are talking about here is by far less intelligent than the wizard going against him. So sometimes you should probably give the benefit of the doubt to the more intelligent creature and not just assume that every monster in the game is smart.
The dragon has home field advantage, and I don't believe letting the caster do what he wants despite the rules has anything to do with the dragons intelligence.
I know you will say for me to make up a silly character with all of your little details on them, but by and large that is unnecessary. If you don't believe casters are overpowered(at all levels) compared to noncasters then there is nothing someone here will be able to do to explain it to you.
Demonstrating you can accomplish similar tasks as the non-casters your supposedly superior to without cheating or making up your own rules would certainly be a start. Those that have participated fairly have not been able to demonstrate any significant degree of superiority, and generally have required CO abuse/optimization to accomplish even that (compared to the unoptimized non-caster Meyer provided (your words)).
Try some fair reading and judging of what people are explaining here instead of being solely motivated by nitpicking at singular details and ignoring everything else.
-AS-
Singular details, as in, the rules? well, your right, If we all ignore the rules and play the game how we want to play it, then whatever class we want to be overpowered will become overpowered, surprise surprise.
Sticking your head out is either a move action, or a 5' adjustment (unsure). At that point in time, it is time to roll initiative.
Only if someone has seen you. The snake, nor rug would get an immediate attack on you because they cannot see you/target you immediately. It is dark and you know exactly where they are, you have the advantage. It is similar to your use of darkvision to move directly up to the snake. If it gets to roll initiative as soon as you are somewhere nearby then your reliance on the darkness to help your character should not count either. No initiative until both sides are aware of each other. If you poked your head out(with the knowledge of where the creature was, via scouting familiar) you would get a surprise round.
The wizard tactics I used were not overpowered or optimized. Those are standard, conventional wizard tactics.
How many times/day can you use a healing belt? I assumed it was like all the other 3/day charged items from MIC.
-AS-
Additionally, it looks like 3 casters have not yet been evaluated:
ReaderOfPosts, Ikeren, and ChatNoir.
Let me know when your builds are complete.
Also, I think I have the correct score for each build -- if I am wrong (there is a lot of back-and-forthing at times) then let me know so I can correct this as well.
One thing I noticed, is that there have been 6 casters so far, and only one non-caster. Anyone else want to post a noncaster?
I guarantee to you that this will cause me to deal more damage, as I will stagger my attacks/maneuvers to take advantage of this.
Umm... Wouldn't that be metagaming, to decide what you're about to do based on whether or not it is going to succeed?
you are aware empathic is emotions, not telepathy. There is no way your familiar can give you exact locations. It can't even tell you what it's facing, only a sense of fear, anguish or concern. As I don't see any mention of being able to exactly pinpoint where your familiar is ether, there is no way, short of periodically popping your head up, to get intel from your familiar if your burrowing. The previous user of the familiar to scout was actually having his familiar come back to give him the intel, hence why this was never mentioned then.
As the familiar moves through the caves, it empathically communicates fear to you when it approaches a creature. This is, again, a basic aspect of the familiar.
Xorns speak common and have hands. Cast away while in the earth.
Oh yeah, you came here asking for things, no one is obligated to give you anything.
-AS-
Only if someone has seen you. The snake, nor rug would get an immediate attack on you because they cannot see you/target you immediately. It is dark and you know exactly where they are, you have the advantage. It is similar to your use of darkvision to move directly up to the snake. If it gets to roll initiative as soon as you are somewhere nearby then your reliance on the darkness to help your character should not count either. No initiative until both sides are aware of each other. If you poked your head out(with the knowledge of where the creature was, via scouting familiar) you would get a surprise round.
Per the original cr2 list of stuff, the snake (which replaced the dire badger) was right around a corner (so we started out 5' from each other). My init is 5 higher than its init so I would win it. I decided that with scent it could react, so no surprise round. This seems legitimate to me.
How many times/day can you use a healing belt? I assumed it was like all the other 3/day charged items from MIC.
Yes, it has 3 charges. You can expend more than 1 charge in a round if you prefer.
Umm... Wouldn't that be metagaming, to decide what you're about to do based on whether or not it is going to succeed?
If the rules of the world are that NO MATTER WHAT the first attack always misses, then I will not use my most powerful attack as the first attack.
This is common sense, not metagaming.
Now, in the mini-adventure, I used my most powerful attack vs the creature immune to weapon damage as well as the blink dog. In both times, I-the-player knew the tactics were going to fail, but my character did not, so acted appropriately (hence, no metagaming).
According to DMG - bypassing encounters can give XP if the goal was to get past where the encounter was.
Gak! Having trouble finding the quote in SRD - but it is in the DMG pg 36 under "Experience Awards" it reads:
Yes, I realize that, and didn't mean to imply otherwise. I tried to address that very issue with the bellow bolded and underlined statement.
KA, it would not get earn xp, as defeating the enemy is what earns xp for these encounters
Which is why this thread will never really go into the power of casters. The best power of a caster is to play Chess with his peons against the enemy. Take away the Peons - he's diminished.
Then should it not be said that, if a caster can be overpowering only when a melee is assisting them, that it's the combination and teamwork that makes for the power, not just the caster?
I'm not convinced my Summoner build couldn't defeat all the challenges given - but honestly, I agree with dispelling the "Caster's are all things at all times" myth - so there's really no point. All it would prove is that a Summoner is an alternative to a fighter - which we already know. Certainly doesn't prove any kind of "overpoweredness" and I'm reluctant to take action which would support a position I disagree with - I've made that mistake too many times!
hehe. Hence why we often keep butting heads.
Oh yeah, you came here asking for things, no one is obligated to give you anything.
-AS-
True, and think of all the people who have read this thread who have not posted (compare posts with read counts) - those people chose not to post anything. That's ok, as there are lots of people who do post. And even if bad builds are posted, I am still learning. Casters, it appears, are as hard to make/play as noncasters - even with all the handbooks out there.
I appreciate all the assistance I am getting in learning more about why casters are supposedly overpowered.
I have also learned at least one non-caster trick (the way that a reach weapon can be used when 5' away when you are attacking a large+ creature).
As the familiar moves through the caves, it empathically communicates fear to you when it approaches a creature. This is, again, a basic aspect of the familiar.
I acknowledged this part already, However, you claimed you know exactly where the creatures are, but as far as I can tell, you don't even know exactly where your familiar is, let alone the creatures they've discovered. So they shoot some fear your way, you know it's found a creature. so what, you now know a creature is somewhere inside the cave.
Xorns speak common and have hands. Cast away while in the earth.
I believe the previous alter self user said thoqqua (I could be mistaken), so thats what I went by.
(PS: I'd challenge if those talons can be considered hands for casting in a real game, but here on the CO boards, I won't)
Then should it not be said that, if a caster can be overpowering only when a melee is assisting them, that it's the combination and teamwork that makes for the power, not just the caster?
Out of character - sure. In character - NEVER!!! :D
A caster (at least a wizard - I'm not much of a cleric/druid/sorcerer guy) works best by using his spells to Buff/Debuff/Battlefield Control so the other characters can do the dirty work.
Such a role is hard to define in levels of power. It "feels" powerful when I play it - but it's hard to quantify that power. Certainly - it is a team effort in the end. Often the battle will end without my caster doing any damage to the opponent. Usually, his role involves separating the opponents and then disabling them while the rest of the party cuts them to ribbons.
I wouldn't know where to start in measuring that power against the power of the guy who did the cutting. Probably such measurement is impossible.
To conclude I agree that spellcasters are not a one man show. I agree that spellcasters cannot "do it all". I agree that Save or Die spells are overratted to the point where there is a misconception that wizards win battles on their own while the rest of the party watches in awe. It doesn't work that way at all in my experience. I address the misconception that "save or die is where it's at" in my "Being a God" thread.
I don't know how power should be defined, or how you would measure the power level of two completely different yet equally important niches in a group.
Guantlets don't really measure power levels - they measure ability to operate independantly. I'm not sure how you would make a Guantlet to measure power levels for filling one particular niche - if anyone finds one - PM me for sure.
I do think a Gish can be made to be a decent alternative to a fighter, just as I think a summoner can be made to do the same. In neither case do I think they will be superior or overpowered when compared to a well-made non-casting build at melee.
I disagree. In all of this. However, if enough other posters request me to, then I will.
I prefer to see the cumulative percentages method. But, I'd go with 50% is a success, then 150%, 250%, etc. None of this 'first one is an automatic failure.
I assume that if I were to use this method, that this means that I no longer have to do weighted average (average damage times miss chance). I guarantee to you that this will cause me to deal more damage, as I will stagger my attacks/maneuvers to take advantage of this.
You could metagame (stagger) it that way if you really want even more of your argument to be dismissed. Cos that's what will happen if you do it.
So, if you're really trying to prove anything, you'll not do that staggered bull
Just like you wouldn't claim a snake is smart enough to hose the wizard's familiar over after all the claims about how stupid an animal companion is from previous threads.
For intiative, this would mean that someone with a low init will beat someone with a high init which is counterintuitive.
On one hand, it may means a higher initiative might lose some times to a low initiative creature, just like happens in game.
On the other hand, it may mean that the higher initiative ALWAYS goes first, unlike happens in game.
The snake is blind (so does not threaten me). It knows what square I am in (sure) but since it does not threaten me, it cannot take an AoO.
If it's dark, then you're right; it cannot take an AoO.
On the bat, too. Or any other creature for that matter.
As I have said many times, it is the way I do battles. If you would like all battles to start out at "I miss, it misses", that sounds very boring.
Agreed. Starting at 50% and each 100% increment after that is a better benchmark.
I already posted that I could do this -- however, you should probably tell mr (shield+protection from evil+scintillating scales+bulls strength) wizard about that rule as well.
If you count up the rounds I used and add in a couple extra rounds for exploring, i think i come in under 1 min/level. And, as I already posted, I had thought that fly was 10min/level.
Oh, the actual encounter could have specified how much distance between encounters.
Manticore
300 ft. to entrance then 40 ft. inside before next encounter
... like that.
Old Man Wizard - I am old and smart. I don't do anything quickly or without thinking about it. I am not hasty.
I talk to folks in the town learn about the area. Do my research. I solve problems for a living, and I always start at the library.
Can I assume that I learn there is a manticore in the area? Or at least get a description of it? It seems that it isn't exactly the sort of thing that villagers, especially those with a few farm animals, would be casual about. I hire a few locals to take me to its normal hunting ground. If they are afraid, I can always charm a few.
At the hunting ground. I cast L's Tiny Hut and wait, every once in a while I summon a critter to run out of the hut and make like lunch for the manticore. If it takes a few days, so be it. I am only getting older and smarter. Extended Rope Trick lets me rememorize and rest in safety. Eventually I hope the Manticore takes the bait, be it my summoned critters or townies that I send out every once in a while to get water or what not. Once the Manticore takes the bait I cast Suggestion on it.
I suggest that it immediately go kill the dragon that is invading its hunting grounds, I am nice enough to give it directions to the dragons cave. I send off my familiar to follow the Manticore and report back to me. Say my familiar is a bat, it stays far enough back that it doesn't get involved in any conflicts, but it can still take note of what happens to the manticore.
The manitcore does its thing. I don't really care how far it gets I just need a disposable scout. Eventually I get to the entrance of the cave. I'll assume that the manticore died in there someplace and that my familiar let me know what killed it. I re-Rope Trick to prep for a few days.
At this point I don't really do much else I am going to suicide bomb the entire cave. Every day I send in two dretch each with a book containing explosive runes, and a fiendish wolf. My familiar trails them to report back. The wolf takes the lead. and the dretch close when it is attacked and read their books. The runes explode for 6d6 force damage, reflex for half.
So say I have a Rod of Extend, Some Dick and Jane books, and the spells L's Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, Suggestion, Explosive Runes, SMII, CLA/CLV and SMIII maybe some Charm Persons. By being patient and willing to wait can't I deal with this? I can always hide in my Rope Trick if anything comes wandering out.
Sources: PHB & DMG
Thats the problem with this whole thread, MW said earlier that brute force is the only way to show power.
...
He then arbitrarily decides what should and shouldn't count as success.
Bingo.
I am wondering how much longer this farcical debate(which doesn't belong on this board anyway) will continue.
-AS-
That specific hardly matters. It'll happen again about 4-6 weeks after his latest two threads die out. He'll come back with another thread doing basically the same thing; arbitrarily deciding what should and shouldn't count as success.
In the other current thread, he's decided that casters are "not doing well" in this gauntlet.
Do I need to fully stat everything out or can I just talk about tactics?
Stats are nice, as it helps us determine if your build is valid. Additionally, the more information presented BEFORE the analysis, the less grey-area there is to go back and revise/update the character.
Old Man Wizard - I am old and smart. I don't do anything quickly or without thinking about it. I am not hasty.
As long as you do not take advantage of aging to increase your stats this is OK.
I talk to folks in the town learn about the area. Do my research. I solve problems for a living, and I always start at the library.
This is called a Gather Information check.
Can I assume that I learn there is a manticore in the area? Or at least get a description of it? It seems that it isn't exactly the sort of thing that villagers, especially those with a few farm animals, would be casual about. I hire a few locals to take me to its normal hunting ground. If they are afraid, I can always charm a few.
You can attempt to charm them. This would require a roll vs saving throw. Depending on how you do it, this might make them hostile.
At the hunting ground. I cast L's Tiny Hut and wait, every once in a while I summon a critter to run out of the hut and make like lunch for the manticore. If it takes a few days, so be it. I am only getting older and smarter. Extended Rope Trick lets me rememorize and rest in safety. Eventually I hope the Manticore takes the bait, be it my summoned critters or townies that I send out every once in a while to get water or what not. Once the Manticore takes the bait I cast Suggestion on it.
Can you talk with the summoned creatures? This is a requirement for this tactic to work.
Do you win initiative vs the manticore?
Does it fail its saving throw (this is the point of stats).
I suggest that it immediately go kill the dragon that is invading its hunting grounds, I am nice enough to give it directions to the dragons cave. I send off my familiar to follow the Manticore and report back to me. Say my familiar is a bat, it stays far enough back that it doesn't get involved in any conflicts, but it can still take note of what happens to the manticore.
Manticore is close to cave, probably synergistic relationship (adventurers come to loot the cave, manticore kills/eats them. Suggestion says "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. " -- so this doesn't work.
The manitcore does its thing. I don't really care how far it gets I just need a disposable scout. Eventually I get to the entrance of the cave. I'll assume that the manticore died in there someplace and that my familiar let me know what killed it. I re-Rope Trick to prep for a few days.
At this point I don't really do much else I am going to suicide bomb the entire cave. Every day I send in two dretch each with a book containing explosive runes, and a fiendish wolf. My familiar trails them to report back. The wolf takes the lead. and the dretch close when it is attacked and read their books. The runes explode for 6d6 force damage, reflex for half.
Can you talk to these summoned creatures to explain? Duration of summoning is 1 round/level. How far in the cave do they get before the spell expires?
In the other current thread, he's decided that casters are "not doing well" in this gauntlet.
Based on what has been shown so far:
Casters:
1: Drakinar: Dread Necromancer: Failed. Killed by Manticore outside cave, Grappled by snake, wins vs wraith, grappled by rug, killed by dragon. Tactics: Get Killed.
2: DavidWL: Sorcerer. Failure: Cannot use tactics shown. (protection from evil vs wraith, alter self to change two size categories, otherworldly as a halfling, rug immune to necromantic effects, cannot hurt wraith), also, grappled to death in the rug regardless. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor).
3: PhraedrusXY: Dragonborn Fire Elf Wizard - original build lost either 2 or 3, new build loses to rug (using snake explanation, min/level spells fell off). Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor).
4: ReaderOfPosts: Neraphim Conjurer. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). Sanctum Spell (pearl of power) to refesh spell slots. - not fully examined.
5: Ikeren: DMM Cleric - Tactics: DMM Persist, DR/ + Retaliation. -- Not examined.
6: ChatNoir: Druid with Fleshraker - not examined - still making changes (legality/etc)
Would you say that casters are doing well?
Show
Do I need to fully stat everything out or can I just talk about tactics?
Old Man Wizard - I am old and smart. I don't do anything quickly or without thinking about it. I am not hasty.
I talk to folks in the town learn about the area. Do my research. I solve problems for a living, and I always start at the library.
Can I assume that I learn there is a manticore in the area? Or at least get a description of it? It seems that it isn't exactly the sort of thing that villagers, especially those with a few farm animals, would be casual about. I hire a few locals to take me to its normal hunting ground. If they are afraid, I can always charm a few.
At the hunting ground. I cast L's Tiny Hut and wait, every once in a while I summon a critter to run out of the hut and make like lunch for the manticore. If it takes a few days, so be it. I am only getting older and smarter. Extended Rope Trick lets me rememorize and rest in safety. Eventually I hope the Manticore takes the bait, be it my summoned critters or townies that I send out every once in a while to get water or what not. Once the Manticore takes the bait I cast Suggestion on it.
I suggest that it immediately go kill the dragon that is invading its hunting grounds, I am nice enough to give it directions to the dragons cave. I send off my familiar to follow the Manticore and report back to me. Say my familiar is a bat, it stays far enough back that it doesn't get involved in any conflicts, but it can still take note of what happens to the manticore.
The manitcore does its thing. I don't really care how far it gets I just need a disposable scout. Eventually I get to the entrance of the cave. I'll assume that the manticore died in there someplace and that my familiar let me know what killed it. I re-Rope Trick to prep for a few days.
At this point I don't really do much else I am going to suicide bomb the entire cave. Every day I send in two dretch each with a book containing explosive runes, and a fiendish wolf. My familiar trails them to report back. The wolf takes the lead. and the dretch close when it is attacked and read their books. The runes explode for 6d6 force damage, reflex for half.
So say I have a Rod of Extend, Some Dick and Jane books, and the spells L's Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, Suggestion, Explosive Runes, SMII, CLA/CLV and SMIII maybe some Charm Persons. By being patient and willing to wait can't I deal with this? I can always hide in my Rope Trick if anything comes wandering out.
Sources: PHB & DMG
Barding: Twice as much for medium creatures, four times as much for large creatures.
That's just for the base cost of the mundane item. The cost to enchant it isn't changed from normal armor.
3: PhraedrusXY: Dragonborn Fire Elf Wizard - original build lost either 2 or 3,
The "original build" was up for all of maybe 2 minutes, before I added Scintillating Scales. I thought we wanted to see optimized casters here, not things thrown together hastily that could be done better? I haven't bought a D&D sourcebook, or played a wizard, in probably 5 years. So forgive me for being a bit rusty on the latest "uber tactics", ok?
new build loses to rug (using snake explanation, min/level spells fell off).
O'RLY? Just exactly how long does it take to get to the rug from the snake? Is this listed somewhere? If you get to keep your 1 min/lvl spells through the entire freakin' dungeon, so do I, unless there are more actual rounds of combat than their duration. Also, I could have added in a Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, but didn't specifically because you let your 1 min/lvl duration spells last the entire time.
My build also has Darkvision. I wasn't sure about this originally, and so didn't mention it. So the snake wouldn't be getting Attacks of Opportunity on it either. The wizard could attack and then move away, and use his AoO/Stand Still combo with impunity to keep the snake at bay. The snake would also have a 50% miss chance on every attack. This should make that fight go alot easier. Of course, the Mirror Images wouldn't help at all in the dark, but that's a small loss I think.
It is hard to make up a bunch of tactics before hand that work perfectly for a given scenario. That isn't how real games work. In a real game, I'd take a turn, and then the DM would, and I'd get to react to what the NPCs/monsters do. So, is altering tactics based on new information a "sin", also, or can I say the wizard uses his Darkvision, instead of a light source?
As I said before, the problem here is with a "straw-man" type of argument. Once you throw out the "cheddar" (infinite loops, etc.), I think most people would agree that casters are less powerful than non-casters for first 5 or 6 levels (especially with ToB). That was not the problem with your original premise, the problem is that casters < non-casters for the first 5-6 levels, casters = non-casters at 7-10, and casters > non-casters at 11+, which by you own initial logic makes casters > non-casters overall (more powerful for a greater fraction of the total game time, although this means very little out of the context of a play style, some people only play high levels, some only low levels, etc.). If you throw out ToB, I think it is more like casters < non-casters up until lvl 3 or 4, casters = non-casters at lvl 5 to 9, and casters take over and begin to dominate around 9 to 11.
So if your premise is "my solo warrior r0ckzor at lvl 5 more than any caster ever possibly could!", congratulations on proving something not very interesting. My understanding is that your original premise was that non-casters are better for a third of the game, then they are equal for a third of the game, then casters are better for the last third, so overall neither really claims the advantage. If you want to prove that, you'll have to show that your build at level 11-13 is still able to stand as an equal to the caster builds at those levels.
That is the weak point of your original premise I think.
You know, I am reading page 215, and this is what it says:
Pearls of power have a CL 17. I don't see how someone without CL 17+ can craft them under the text of page 215. Has this been errated?
Yes, it's in the errata. Minimum caster level is set by prerequisites.
4: ReaderOfPosts: Neraphim Conjurer. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). Sanctum Spell (pearl of power) to refesh spell slots. - not fully examined.
I examined this build and:
Caster level required and sanctum spell/pearl of power exploit are RAW.
Combat success relies on:
1) heavy metagaming (using damaging spells to do enough damage to drop monsters below specific HPs, followed by power word:pain.
2) escaping grapples with abrupt jaunt at 40-50% chance to make the concentration check required. This tactic assumes no bad luck and no intelligent tactics (grappling) by the manticore and the dragon, because they'll eat up the jaunt uses per day.
Show
Here you go, with round by round breakdown, spell sourcing, and anything else you'd like. Note the books used: It fits a Core+Completes+Spell compendium ruleset that I often see DM's using. (The races of stone spell, while helpful (Average damage goes from 4.5 to 8 of my own attacks).
PHB 1
PHB 2
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane
Spell Compendium
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
Running During Day:
Total Resources used:
33 charges, or 495 gp.
Spells and turning for the day:
Spells Remaining: Light. Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1- Domain: Detect Undead, Shield of Faith
2- Augery (domain)
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Although I could have used that Clairvoyance to check for the wraith, and maybe learned to not use stone fist so I could save 5 turning/rebuking attempts...either way.
Assumptions:
1) I win initiative once, against the dragon.
2) Enemies roll above average damage sometimes.
3) Enemies crit on only their highest damage attack.
4) I never win a grapple.
5) I assume my minute/level buffs (Divine Favour) only last one encounter.
6) I do not add the bonus to attack for aid. Why bother? It's only +1 to attack.
I’m ready for CR 6 encounters when you are.
It does not matter, any cover denies AoOs, and Meyer's character has full cover in the darkness. Scent is not darkvision or blindsight.
Alright, looked up a few more rules, got it now.
Well, my instinct is to use a strict accumulating 50% rule for both the characters and their challenges. It is hard to argue that unfairly favors any type or build.
I still feel a strict accumulating 50% is too low. How about 80%?
Though, I have to say, complaining about how Meyer does his math when almost no-one else has done any math whatsoever (but has rather assumed their abilities allow them to succeed) seems a little shallow.
Did you miss me running all 5 encounters round by round?
Ikeren's wonderful resolution method means the PCs (and their animal companions) will always fail the saving throws even against DC 2 spells. So countless low CR monsters automatically defeat his wonderful druid. A CR 3 Yeth Hound, for instance, will send the druid and his pet into a panicked state at 300 feet, with a laughable DC 11 will save.
Alright, you got me there. 100% threshold is too high. I'll be willing to concede 80% or even 75%.
For intiative, this would mean that someone with a low init will beat someone with a high init which is counterintuitive.
I think you have to remember that this is based around random dice rolls. Even if you have a higher init score, you can still lose. I am postulating a system where you lose a percentage of times representative to the relation of the initiative scores of the enemies you fight against, and win at the same proportion.
By your math, this is true, it is not true for my math. For me
50% (miss) + 50% (100% - hit) deals 80% of normal damage.
The problem is, that in that round of combat, you still have some chance of doing 0 damage, and instead you assume you do 20ish.
If you're power attacking for +4, those attacks go to +7, which gives you a 65%/65% / 2 chance of hitting = 32.5/32.5, which doesn't even make a 75% threshold.
That sounds very boring.
Your interest isn't something I am here to hold.
??? According to you, I would need to reach 100% to use evasion, so it would need to breathe on me 3 times before it kicked in. Basically, using your method, I do not get to take any advantage of my feats. Btw ... when i take (65% of 6d4 (15) + 35% of nothing), it does not seem like I am giving myself advantages.
But you have fast healing one.
The difference between taking
15 damage round 1
15 damage round 3
0 damage round 6
and
10 damage round 1
10 damage round 3
10 damage round 6
Is that in round 3, you've taken 30 damage, and could have died.
Or, in round 3, you could have taken 20 damage, and drank some potions and let the fast healing heal you back up.
That is why I am arguing in favour of a 75 or 80% threshold. Because your system does give your characters added benefits.
You realize that your build cannot make it through the lower level dungeon? You have no way of affecting creatures immune to weapon damage. Additionally, you autolose to the mimic as you cannot beat its grapple score.
I can't beat anythings grapple score. That doesn't concern me. I can sit there and take it while my giant glowing greatsword pummels the creature from the outside.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mimic.htm
1d8+2 = woot, it'll, on high rolls, do enough damage to overcome my DR.
Also, you'll note I mentioned rebuking. That means spontaneous inflicts. I do have a way to effect creatures immune to weapon damage. Although that is a good point, generally.
Alright, if you won't bite on a 95% threshold, how about 75%? Is that reasonable? Your system doesn't represent the random variable of DND well enough in my mind, and thus innacurately gives a build with heavy 1 time hits in the first few rounds an undue advantage, since every blow deals damage.
Magic Item Compendium gives rules on buying partially charged wands.
Don't own it. Can I do the standard: charges are 15 gp each method that is frequently used?
As long as you do not take advantage of aging to increase your stats this is OK.
Why not? Party of the game...
I'd also like to point out, I did the same encounters, using a mathematical system that disadvantages me, and using less resources. My builds been ready for critique for...20 hours? Lot's of posting between now and that build, but no critique...
The "original build" was up for all of maybe 2 minutes, before I added Scintillating Scales. I thought we wanted to see optimized casters here, not things thrown together hastily that could be done better? I haven't bought a D&D sourcebook, or played a wizard, in probably 5 years. So forgive me for being a bit rusty on the latest "uber tactics", ok?
O'RLY? Just exactly how long does it take to get to the rug from the snake? Is this listed somewhere? If you get to keep your 1 min/lvl spells through the entire freakin' dungeon, so do I, unless there are more actual rounds of combat than their duration. Also, I could have added in a Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, but didn't specifically because you let your 1 min/lvl duration spells last the entire time.
re: original build. We already covered this. You were asked "are you ready". You said "Yes". Changing the build afterwards is still a change. This is why I have not examined the other builds yet.
I am redoing the cr5 encounter. My flight spell fell off - there is too much objection to it from the other posters. And it is SPELL ... not SPELLS. I am also using the accumulating percentages method to see if that makes a difference.
You saw how long it took to beat the snake -- the rug takes longer. When you add up the amount of time spent Buffing, Battling, Scouting, Moving, it is more than 50 -- want me to post it? (if so, it needs to wait until after I post my level 10 version, my redo of the cave, etc)
The presence or absense of a rod of lesser extend based on how long buffs last is EXACTLY the metagaming that was asked to not occur.
I'd also like to point out, I did the same encounters, using a mathematical system that disadvantages me, and using less resources. My builds been ready for critique for...20 hours? Lot's of posting between now and that build, but no critique...
To avoid the issue we had last time with scintillating scales ... we were waiting for you to say "Go" ... I think we can take this as a go.
Did you miss me running all 5 encounters round by round?
I did say "almost no-one" in case I had missed someone that did, like yourself (which I had missed until Meyer posted the link. I have since looked it over and posted a few questions above)
I can't beat anythings grapple score. That doesn't concern me. I can sit there and take it while my giant glowing greatsword pummels the creature from the outside.
How do you get a greatsword? The spell uses the deities favored weapon, as you don't have a deity (your choice in domains) leaves you with the alignment options (which I can't find at the moment, but I seem to remember them all being 1 handed weapons like maces and longwords). Even if you wanted to argue otherwise, how does planning and undeath equate to greatswords, I'd think something more like a rapier.
I examined this build and:
Caster level required and sanctum spell/pearl of power exploit are RAW.
Combat success relies on:
1) heavy metagaming (using damaging spells to do enough damage to drop monsters below specific HPs, followed by power word:pain.
2) escaping grapples with abrupt jaunt at 40-50% chance to make the concentration check required. This tactic assumes no bad luck and no intelligent tactics (grappling) by the manticore and the dragon, because they'll eat up the jaunt uses per day.
1) A fair criticism. Granted, anything that has its effectiveness defined by metagame terms I personally believe is fair game to assume your character extrapolates to whatever terms allow them to understand it's effectiveness.
2) The dragon doesn't have the oppurtunity to grapple (It's dead the same round I enter it's blindsense). I let it breath, because I assumed it would hear me casting truestrike, though it wouldn't pinpoint my space when I moved after casting. The manticore is Int 7, and I don't really think it's intuitive to grapple a Dwarven Ancestor. A giant stone statue of a dwarf?
A mistake I made in my disfavor was to assume that I didn't craft the Tunic of Steady spellcasting, which since I have craft wondrous item, would be kind of stupid. A propose using the extra 1,250 for an extra pearl of power and a belt of healing. That gives me a little more wiggle room when it comes to resources.
Just a quick miscellaneous note: The purpose of this thread is to show that a caster can do everything a low level fighter can, not to show that people on the Char-Op boards can make said caster on their first try. Not letting people change their builds may show that Meyer can make a more solid melee character than whatever caster poster, but it doesn't show anything about the relative strength of the character types.
How do you get a greatsword? The spell uses the deities favored weapon, as you don't have a deity (your choice in domains) leaves you with the alignment options (which I can't find at the moment, but I seem to remember them all being 1 handed weapons like maces and longwords). Even if you wanted to argue otherwise, how does planning and undeath equate to greatswords, I'd think something more like a rapier.
From SRD/Spiritual Weapon
Chaos: Battleaxe
Evil: Light flail
Good: Warhammer
Law: Longsword,
stuff
I address two specific points below. The rest could could be addressed by me
making a build . . .
Manticore is close to cave, probably synergistic relationship (adventurers come to loot the cave, manticore kills/eats them. Suggestion says "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. " -- so this doesn't work.
You could be right . . . I am not sure that protecting its food source from anything would be considered harmful . . . but of course the character is smarter than me so he would have just asked the manticore to go kill the sheep disguised as a dragon . . . being that this is no more ridiculous than acid=water, take a bath.
Can you talk to these summoned creatures to explain? Duration of summoning is 1 round/level. How far in the cave do they get before the spell expires?
They can get 10 rounds in. Extended. Of course I don't know how far in they need to go. However, I can repeat this tactic ad infinitum moving in as I am sure it is safe and re-using Rope Trick as needed.
Not disagreeing with this tactic overall, but I don't really see this as somehow more powerful then Meyers non-melee. It takes several days to accomplish what it took him less then an hour to do. Both succeed, your method is safer, but more time consuming. While your continuing your systematic destruction of the cave, He's moved on to the next set of challenges, leveled up, etc. It's no wonder your old and only level 5 :P
I didn't realize this was a race. Races I don't win . . . at least not with the spells I have mentioned
. . . however I too eventually can level up and go onto the next set of challenges, which I will then systematically destroy, taking my sweet time. As an aside, in the long run, aging actually makes me better at what I do while the opposite is true for most melee builds. :D
To me the 'power' lies in the minimal risk to self involved.
What is this, EverQuest?
L'Avantgarde Noire
I didn't realize this was a race. Races I don't win . . . at least not with the spells I have mentioned
It's not a race, but can you seriously tell me that taking 2-3+ days to accomplish a goal demonstrates a more powerful or superior option then taking less then an hour to accomplish the same task? The claims have been made that casters are superior to non-casters (this is usually in the high levels, but there are some who believe it begins as low as level one, others say at level 3, and so on), I think it is being demonstrated that they are not a superior option (at this point anyways) (please note, thats not the same as saying they are an inferior option, which is NOT what I'm saying)
I didn't realize this was a race. Races I don't win . . . at least not with the spells I have mentioned
As an aside, in the long run, aging actually makes me better at what I do while the opposite is true for most melee builds. :D
To me the 'power' lies in the minimal risk to self involved.
So? A meleer can also kill one critter, go back to town, sleep a few days to heal. Then rearm, buy consumables, kill critter #2, go back to the inn to sleep, etc. Yes, it is safer.
But being slower is not being stronger. Actually it means that some other adventurer (one willing to take more risks) can go finish the quest in your place and leave you jobless and without loot.
You saw how long it took to beat the snake -- the rug takes longer. When you add up the amount of time spent Buffing, Battling, Scouting, Moving, it is more than 50 -- want me to post it? (if so, it needs to wait until after I post my level 10 version, my redo of the cave, etc)
The presence or absense of a rod of lesser extend based on how long buffs last is EXACTLY the metagaming that was asked to not occur.
Due to your Fly spell lasting long enough to get through the dungeon, I was assuming that we were just saying that 1 min/lvl spell durations were enough. This seemed like a valid assumption at the time. If I'd known this would come up, I would have included the Metamagic Rod, or another scroll/casting of Scintillating Scales.
This isn't metagaming. It's me starting out with an assumption, based on what had been previously allowed for your character, and then being told that my assumption was incorrect because the same thing isn't going to be allowed for mine. That doesn't seem exactly fair.
Don't bother redoing anything on mine. If I decide to participate further in this, I will repost the build with some of the errors in it corrected (weapon size/damage, complete dragonborn racial abilities, tactics that take advantage of darkvision, etc). Then we can look at that, if you want. If you think that is metagaming/cheating, then just tell me so I won't waste my time bothering to update it.
I think I agree with some of the others that level 5 isn't really where we should be looking at, also. I don't think anyone disputes that non-spellcasters, especially those using Tome of Battle, are at least the equal of casters at levels 1-5, for most encounters.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Don't bother redoing anything on mine. If I decide to participate further in this, I will repost the build with some of the errors in it corrected (weapon size/damage, complete dragonborn racial abilities, tactics that take advantage of darkvision, etc). Then we can look at that, if you want. If you think that is metagaming/cheating, then just tell me so I won't waste my time bothering to update it.
Metagaming / cheating would be replacing items / spells / feats that give no benefit in this exact challenge with ones that do.
Fixing issues/tactics is not metagaming.
Honestly, your build is good enough now, that with some minor tweaks, you should be able to go through the dungeon.
The meleer also runs into the possibility of several bad rolls causing him to die. RtO's build has basically zero risk. Not arguing that it's the be-all, end-all of power, but risk-management should be considered.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Good point. I think that we do ourselves a disservice when we do not consider bad rolls when we make our characters.
CR 5:
Encounter 1: Manticore
Show
My init bonus is 6 higher than his, so lets assume I win init.
This ... is the toughest fight yet.
Round 1: I drink my potion of flight, drop prone, and rage.
My AC vs it: (10 (base) +4 (armor) +4 (prone) +2 (rage variant) +2 dex -2 (punishing stance) -1 (vulnerable) -1 (Aggressive)) = 18
It flings 6 spikes at me, (55% hit, 110% miss, 165% hit, 220% miss, 275% hit, 330% hit) dealing (3 hits * 6.5) = 19.5 damage
End of Round 1: Me: 14.5, It: 57
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp. Uphill charge, Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage. Each. It now has 5 hps left.
It dies if we include crits -- unsure how this works so will exclude it.
Per Monster Manual, it closes in melee (5'step) and claws me. It attacks (85% chance), dealing 10 damage. This activates the fire riposte (95% = 255%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) +1d6+3 (burning blade)= 14+3.5+3+3.5=24 damage, killing it.
Using the same tactics as the first attempt, I dealt more damage and took 0.2 hps less damage.
End of Round 2: Me: 5.5, It: dead
I wait multiple rounds (11 rounds or so) to return to 1/2 hps. (16.5), then I burn a charge from my healing belt bringing me to 25.5 hps.
Resources used:
One potion of flight and 1 charge from belt of healing.
My init bonus is 6 higher than his, so lets assume I win init.
This ... is the toughest fight yet.
Round 1: I drink my potion of flight, drop prone, and rage.
My AC vs it: (10 (base) +4 (armor) +4 (prone) +2 (rage variant) +2 dex -2 (punishing stance) -1 (vulnerable) -1 (Aggressive)) = 18
It flings 6 spikes at me, (55% hit, 110% miss, 165% hit, 220% miss, 275% hit, 330% hit) dealing (3 hits * 6.5) = 19.5 damage
End of Round 1: Me: 14.5, It: 57
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp. Uphill charge, Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage. Each. It now has 5 hps left.
It dies if we include crits -- unsure how this works so will exclude it.
Per Monster Manual, it closes in melee (5'step) and claws me. It attacks (85% chance), dealing 10 damage. This activates the fire riposte (95% = 255%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) +1d6+3 (burning blade)= 14+3.5+3+3.5=24 damage, killing it.
Using the same tactics as the first attempt, I dealt more damage and took 0.2 hps less damage.
End of Round 2: Me: 5.5, It: dead
I wait multiple rounds (11 rounds or so) to return to 1/2 hps. (16.5), then I burn a charge from my healing belt bringing me to 25.5 hps.
Resources used:
One potion of flight and 1 charge from belt of healing.
Bingo.
That specific hardly matters. It'll happen again about 4-6 weeks after his latest two threads die out. He'll come back with another thread doing basically the same thing; arbitrarily deciding what should and shouldn't count as success.
In the other current thread, he's decided that casters are "not doing well" in this gauntlet.
The CO decide the meaning of words by themselves. And then they change it week yes week no. This is, when they bother to show us the definition of the words.
Then they go around making fallacies and corolaries and whatnot out of thin air, with poesy thrown up so they are nice looking.
It was about time you stoped creating and modifying all the rules at your whim. You change your builds and interpretations of the rules, Meyer changes the victory conditions, perfectly fair.
After all, throwing a sugestion at a manticore and automatically assume it makes it fails the save, giving her a suicidical order(attack a dragon head on reasonable? Suuuuure), plus the whole village being made of morons who don't wonder why all their friends are missing all of a sudden is perfectly right by the CO standards. Equal conditions for everybody, yes sir.
After all, throwing a sugestion at a manticore and automatically assume it makes it fails the save, giving her a suicidical order(attack a dragon head on reasonable? Suuuuure), plus the whole village being made of morons who don't wonder why all their friends are missing all of a sudden is perfectly right by the CO standards. Equal conditions for everybody, yes sir.
I am a huge COer . . . count my posts and look at the sources for my wizard . . . lump me into categories will you?
That aside . . . Maticore has a +3 will save. A level 5 wizard likely has a DC 18 for 3rd level spells (+1 item, stat increase at 4th). I am not that good at math, but assuming it fails the save seems maybe a tiny bit reasonable to me.
Why is it suicidal? I am CR 5 and it isn't for me. The manticore is bigger than the dragon, and the same CR. It isn't as smart as the dragon, but that seems like it works in my favor. At what point does the manticore think that it can't go toe to toe with the dragon?
You should also see that I addressed this earlier. If I tell the manticore the dragon is really a sheep disguised as a dragon why won't it listen to me? . . . The PHB text for suggestion indicates that telling someone that acid is really water and they should take a dip to cool off is within the framework of a suggestion . . .
The townsfolk aren't morons. They get charmed if they are too frightened to lead me to the manticore. Remember that I am smart. Charm is the little bit that pushes them over the edge to do something they normally might not do . . . for the good of friends & family etc.
But this is all moot . . . as someone pointed out I take too long to accomplish my goal so there is another, more willing to take risks, adventurer in the area who is going to grab everything . . . much like that Orc who took out everything . . .
Hold on, wait a second! Big, not too bright, melee type? That usually means low will save . . . forget the manticore I'll dump my suggestion on the orc . . . his will save is 0, and he wants to go into the cave . . .
2) The dragon doesn't have the oppurtunity to grapple (It's dead the same round I enter it's blindsense). I let it breath, because I assumed it would hear me casting truestrike, though it wouldn't pinpoint my space when I moved after casting. The manticore is Int 7, and I don't really think it's intuitive to grapple a Dwarven Ancestor. A giant stone statue of a dwarf?
The manticore is certainly intelligent and wise enough to grapple a medium-sized caster, but I agree it's counterintuitive to grapple the DA form.
Still, you've got 3 uses of Abrupt Jaunt to cover all possible developments with the snake and the rug.
The rug also has 84 hp and takes half damage from electricity. Will you have enough pearls for that?
The townsfolk aren't morons. They get charmed if they are too frightened to lead me to the manticore. Remember that I am smart. Charm is the little bit that pushes them over the edge to do something they normally might not do . . . for the good of friends & family etc.
I see this far too often. Charm makes them friendly, not subservient. you would still need diplomacy to get them to help out in a dangerous task, as you didn't post a build, we can't be sure if your have it or not (perhaps your loaded with knowledge and spellcasting skills), or even a decent enough charisma to manage it untrained? It doesn't matter how smart you are if your not good with getting people to do what you want, your not getting the townsfolk to act as bait.
But this is all moot . . . as someone pointed out I take too long to accomplish my goal so there is another, more willing to take risks, adventurer in the area who is going to grab everything . . . much like that Orc who took out everything . . .
Hold on, wait a second! Big, not too bright, melee type? That usually means low will save . . . forget the manticore I'll dump my suggestion on the orc . . . his will save is 0, and he wants to go into the cave . . .
It's entirely possible he's in and out before you even realize it. you said you'd peek out of your hut periodically to check for the manticore, he's outside for barely a minute dealing with the manticore. Besides, getting the melee to do what it was going to do anyways shouldn't earn you any xp, it should earn the melee the xp, since it's him overcoming the encounters.
I really don't know what point your trying to argue though. The intention of this thread is to see overpowered casters that support the claims many people make, what you are demonstrating is in no ways overpowered.
The rug also has 84 hp and takes half damage from electricity. Will you have enough pearls for that?
Does it? I believe it's no longer counted as an object for the purposes of taking damage (it explicitly retains its hardness (0), but nowhere does it indicate it's treated as an object for any other purpose).
I went through and edited my post to keep track of how many pearls of powers I've used.
I really don't know what point your trying to argue though. The intention of this thread is to see overpowered casters that support the claims many people make, what you are demonstrating is in no ways overpowered.
What people? There seems to be an unspoken argument you're vehemently defending. That melee characters are worthless? The level 20 record for highest damage depends on Tome of Battle. That soloing casters should use save or dies?
Being able to solo 5 CR5 challenges at level 5 is overpowered. It's over 4 times as powerful as the game designers expected a character to be (A party of four could handle 3 CR 5 at level 5). Even if a caster can't beat one of the encounters, they're still overpowered if they can beat the rest. Just because a martial character can be overpowered doesn't make a caster balanced. If the point of this thread was to find Example of overpowered casters, it has succeeded. If the point was to "Make a caster more powerful than a martial character could be at this level" the thread should be retitled.
I am a huge COer . . . count my posts and look at the sources for my wizard . . . lump me into categories will you?
84 posts isn't that many. That said, you may just not have had a chance to build a reputation yet. Or you may just be a lurker. Not saying you can't optimize, just that post count isn't a great way to judge (it's an indicator of activity, not skill). I have a lower per day count than LogicNinja, but I'd always heed his advice before my instincts.
// end off topic
L'Avantgarde Noire
Archer, I think he was being facetious.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I hate my inabilty to detect undercurrents.
Alix the Fiery
General information
Additional notes can be given in brackets in case I think refering to a source or an explanation is needed.
Race: Female Neraph
Class: Warmage 5
Hitpoints:5d6+15=37
Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (13+1 from levels)
Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane disciple (Transformation), Dragonic aura (vigor), Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Skills: Concentration 9, Spellcraft 12, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Knowledge (religion) 6
AB: 2
AC: 20 Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 19
Saves: Fort: 3 Refl: 2 Will: 3
Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Guiding light, Spell Compendium)
Caster level: 4 for most of the things, but 9 for fire evocation.
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
Additional notes can be given in brackets in case I think refering to a source or an explanation is needed.
Race: Female Neraph
Class: Warmage 5
Hitpoints:5d6+15=37
Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (13+1 from levels)
Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane disciple (Transformation), Dragonic aura (vigor), Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Skills: Concentration 9, Spellcraft 12, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Knowledge (religion) 6
AB: 2
AC: 20 Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 19
Saves: Fort: 3 Refl: 2 Will: 3
Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Guiding light, Spell Compendium)
Caster level: 4 for most of the things, but 9 for fire evocation.
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
Based on what has been shown so far:
Casters:
1: Drakinar: Dread Necromancer: Failed. Killed by Manticore outside cave, Grappled by snake, wins vs wraith, grappled by rug, killed by dragon. Tactics: Get Killed.
2: DavidWL: Sorcerer. Failure: Cannot use tactics shown. (protection from evil vs wraith, alter self to change two size categories, otherworldly as a halfling, rug immune to necromantic effects, cannot hurt wraith), also, grappled to death in the rug regardless. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor).
3: PhraedrusXY: Dragonborn Fire Elf Wizard - original build lost either 2 or 3, new build loses to rug (using snake explanation, min/level spells fell off). Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor).
4: ReaderOfPosts: Neraphim Conjurer. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). Sanctum Spell (pearl of power) to refesh spell slots. - not fully examined.
5: Ikeren: DMM Cleric - Tactics: DMM Persist, DR/ + Retaliation. -- Not examined.
6: ChatNoir: Druid with Fleshraker - not examined - still making changes (legality/etc)
Would you say that casters are doing well?
4 casters have made it through without dying. (You keep counting PhaedrusXY's as a failure, but I think it made it through.)
1 non-caster made it through
The headline then reads:
Casters are doing poorly in the thread on the C.O. board
or
Casters winning gauntlet 4 to 1
See. Neither one is terribly accurate. But I guess if the agenda is to maintain that non-casters are better than casters at low levels, rather than equal, it should be said the first way, eh?
Taking the politician's slant just leads even more to people laughing at your set-ups and preemptive conclusions.
What people? There seems to be an unspoken argument you're vehemently defending. That melee characters are worthless? The level 20 record for highest damage depends on Tome of Battle. That soloing casters should use save or dies?
When you have seen as many "Fighter vs Wolf" comparisons as we have, you get overly sensitive.
Read through this thread, count the number of times people dismiss noncasters. That is the argument that Kratch is defending against.
Being able to solo 5 CR5 challenges at level 5 is overpowered. It's over 4 times as powerful as the game designers expected a character to be (A party of four could handle 3 CR 5 at level 5). Even if a caster can't beat one of the encounters, they're still overpowered if they can beat the rest. Just because a martial character can be overpowered doesn't make a caster balanced. If the point of this thread was to find Example of overpowered casters, it has succeeded. If the point was to "Make a caster more powerful than a martial character could be at this level" the thread should be retitled.
If the casters can beat as many encounters as I did, then they could probably be considered balanced. (Seems reasonable)
If the casters cannot beat as many encounters as I did, then they are considered less powerful than noncasters? (Seems reasonable)
If the casters can beat more encounters than noncasters, then they should be considered more powerful (seems reasonable).
The above is true no matter where the bar is -- as we are comparing possible overpowered character to each other. Or, to restate, if the best a caster can do is tie a noncaster, then the caster is not overpowered.
As it stands ... it has been three days since Drakinar posted the first caster build to handle the CR5 mini-adventure. Since then, there has not been a single caster to beat all 5 encounters. There are some that might, once they are done making adjustments to their build (tactics (PhraedrusXY) or equipment/etc (ChatNoir) or legality of tactics (Ikeren)). I don't think I have fully examined your build, but will do so tonight.
4 casters have made it through without dying. (You keep counting PhaedrusXY's as a failure, but I think it made it through.)
1 non-caster made it through
The headline then reads:
Casters are doing poorly in the thread on the C.O. board
or
Casters winning gauntlet 4 to 1
See. Neither one is terribly accurate. But I guess if the agenda is to maintain that non-casters are better than casters at low levels, rather than equal, it should be said the first way, eh?
Taking the politician's slant just leads even more to people laughing at your set-ups and preemptive conclusions.
This activates the fire riposte (95% = 255%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) +1d6+3 (burning blade)= 14+3.5+3+3.5=24 damage, killing it.
I believe that's not how fire riposte works.
Make a melee touch attack to deal 4d6 fire damage.
That's it. 4d6 fire damage. It doesn't even say anything about using a weapon to use this counter.
Just like grapple checks, you don't get your weapon/strength/magic boosts.
It still dies to 14 hit points. Just pointing out the obvious error.
Edit: Link to fights
Phyrexis the Grim, dragonborn (heart) fire elf wizard 5 (wiz1 generalist sub level)
Outsider (native, dragon blooded, elf blooded)
Str 14 (18 buffed)
Dex 12
Con 14 (13+1 level)
Int 17 (15+2race)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2race)
HP: 24 (+1d10+5)
AC 36 (10+4armor+18nat+1dex+4shield+1defl-1flaw-1size), 18 vs. incorporeal touch attacks, touch 10, ff 35
Touch AC w/Scintillating Scales 27 (35 vs. incorporeal touch)
Attacks: large +1 guisarme +4 (2d6+3), +6 (2d6+6) w/Bull's Strength, large composite longbow +2 (1d10+2)
Flaw: Vulnerable (-1 AC)
Feats: Otherworldly, Wild Talent, Scribe Scroll, Stand Still, Sudden Still Spell
Skills: Concentration +10, Tumble +7 (4cc+1dex+2item), Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Spellcraft +11, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Spot +0 (+2 w/familiar), Listen +3 (+5 w/familiar), Search +3
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (25 foot line of acid, fire, cold, or electricity; 2d8, Reflex DC 14, every 1d4 rounds)
Special qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, +2 dodge AC vs. dragons, immune to frightful presence of dragons,
Equipment (6310/9000): +1 ring of protection (2000), large +1 guisarme (2318), large composite longbow (+2 str) and 50 arrows (901), 10 potions of CLW (500 gp), scrolls of Mage Hand and Magic Weapon (~40 gp), scrolls of Alter Self and Scintillating Scales (CL5, 500 gp), MW tumble tool (50 gp)
Spells prepared:
0th: Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Message
1st: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile x3
2nd: Alter Self, False Life, Mirror Image, Bull's Strength
3rd: Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch, Blink
Zippy the Pinhead (bat familiar):
Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 4
Hit Points: 12
Init.: +2
Movement: 5, fly 40 (good)
AC 19, touch 16, ff 17
Skills: Hide +14, Listen +8*, Move Silently +6, Spot +8* (*loses +4 bonus if blindsense is negated)
Special Qualities: Alertness (master), blindsense 20 ft., low light vision, Evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
Edit: Maybe he uses Wild talent to get psionic focus? Might be far-fetched though.
4 casters have made it through without dying. (You keep counting PhaedrusXY's as a failure, but I think it made it through.)
1 non-caster made it through
The headline then reads:
Casters are doing poorly in the thread on the C.O. board
or
Casters winning gauntlet 4 to 1
See. Neither one is terribly accurate. But I guess if the agenda is to maintain that non-casters are better than casters at low levels, rather than equal, it should be said the first way, eh?
Taking the politician's slant just leads even more to people laughing at your set-ups and preemptive conclusions.
Which 4 casters have made it through yet?
Show me how PhraedrusXY's build makes it through.
Quick recap: This thread's sister thread was started in the class boards. I was asked by multiple people to check out the optimization boards. So I started this thread, looking for optimized casters.
What was pre-emptive of my conclusion?
I had a premise (casters < melee 1-7) -- we then had a test (look for caster builds to show this to be false) -- we have had hundreds upon hundreds of posts looking for them -- and when we look at how things currently rest, they accurately reflect what you quoted me saying. Admittedly, to be perfectly fair, we should repeat this experiment at levels 1-4, 6-7 -- to completely support the above, but I do not see people being interested in that.
As far as people laughing at me ... during this thread, I have been accused of:
not having basic knowledge of spellcasting,
not being able to post an optimized noncaster
building too optimized of a character
cheating (ToB)
cheating (weighted averages)
being fair
trolling
nit-picking
cherry-picking
dipping too much
slanting things with the rules
changing the rules
Some people ignore me, some people listen to me, maybe some people laugh at me.
Honestly though, can you tell me how you hoped to advance this thread's purpose of showing examples of overpowered casters by bringing up things from the other thread (debunking the myth of overpowered casters). It seems to me that my posts in that thread are entirely on point. You might disagree with them, but that seems to me to be a disagreement to have over there, not here.
Fire Riposte is a level 2 Swordsage maneuver (Desert Wind is not available to Warblades). Your initiator level for Swordsage should only be 5/2 = 2, not enough to use level 2 maneuvers (they require IL 3+). Also, I believe the maneuver does a flat 4d6 fire damage, I am not sure if punishing stance should add to it. Certainly burning blade would not, it is over at the end of your turn.
Also, if the Manticore had simply flung a second round of spikes at you, you would have died.
After you drop prone, how do you stand up from prone and then charge in the same round? I am not sure about the aerial combat rules involved in this one, but I think even a flying creature that is on the ground and drops prone, needs to get up before it takes off flying (and charging uphill)?
On a separate note :
Is there an action associated with using a skill trick? or is it a free action? I don't have CScoundrel with me at the moment.
Using solely a simple combat-centric pseudo-"adventure" based entirely on dealing and absorbing damage to determine game balance is the height of folly.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I will soon add some maths to the build I posted some time ago...
While ToB has been out for awhile, there is still a feeling abound that it is a "fix" for non-casters. I agree with claims made to evaluate non-ToB-noncasters vs casters. I also think that the level 5 break has become stale. There seems to be some consensus running that noncasters can at the very least compete at early levels, and at some point no longer compete. I suggest running encounters at ECL 8 and 12. If a non-caster is putty by level 8, they don't compete for 1/2 the lifespan. If casters don't dominate at 12, they aren't superior for the majority.
I love how dismissive and arrogant a lot of the pro-casters are on this thread. Just because we consider it a valid tactic to proceed slowly, scry/scout ahead, sleep in between to change out spells prepared - does not mean that this tactic is immune to claims made about how long it took them vs faster tactics. Meyers tactics for instance are highly questionable, as at multiple points he made saves, got that last hit in first, etc. The amount of risk he took, and the luck he survived by, are useful for gauging his accomplishments.
I think Meyer is wrong on his assessment of gishes. If it's a Fighter 4/Wiz 1, it's not like those spells really do jack. If it's a Fighter 3/Wiz 2, then it's power is directly impacted by it's ability to use magic, ergo Caster. Besides, almost all of the casters have been using "gish" tactics - buff and charge in with superior DR, AC, AB, etc.
In some ways I agree about disallowing Psionics, as, like Incarnium, it is a resource of magic-like abilities that are presented as an option for characters generally considered non-caster. It can therefore be harder to gauge at what point a character is a non-caster or a caster, making it hard to determine if indeed non-casters are "worthless" at certain break points. However, the same can be said for ToB.
Honestly, I think this thread is highly fallacious. I don't agree that a shapeshifting cleric can completely supplant the abilities of a Frenzied Berserker. I don't think a build like the Chain Tripper or Lockdown 2.0 can be replaced with a caster for overwhelming benefit. There are non-caster builds that can compete at high levels, so the idea that non-casters reach a point of negligible worth is quite simply false. Shapeshifting, Wild Shape, and Polymorph can indeed shore-up many weaknesses casters have, but I'm not certain they can effectively replace everything an optimized Dervish can bring to the table.
I believe that's not how fire riposte works.
Make a melee touch attack to deal 4d6 fire damage.
That's it. 4d6 fire damage. It doesn't even say anything about using a weapon to use this counter.
Just like grapple checks, you don't get your weapon/strength/magic boosts.
It still dies to 14 hit points. Just pointing out the obvious error.
Fire Riposte:
Make a melee touch attackto deal 4d6 damage
Punishing stance
While in this stance, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with all melee attacks .
Burning Blade:
For the rest of the round, your melee attacks deal +1d6 +3 (my initiator level) damage.
Looks to me like I am interpretting this correctly.
Stand still is nonpsionic. You don't need wild talent.
He needs wild talent to be psionically focused to be able to blow his focus for an automatic success on a concentration check.
Stand still is nonpsionic. You don't need wild talent.
I know. I took Wild Talent to be able to take 15 on Concentration checks by blowing my psionic focus. It also opens up other psionic feats later, but I'm not 100% decided on taking any.
If you or anyone else see anything else wrong with the build, or have suggestions on where I should take it, fire away. I didn't really have plans for it's future.
Cheers.
PhaedrusXY, how's your breath weapon working? Can you actually decide what kind of damage you do with it every time you use it or do you pick it once and then it's fixed?
Cheers.
He can choose each time he uses it. I added links to the Dragonborn and Fire Elf races to the updated character post.
Where are the maps at for the areas in this "gauntlet"?
I don't think a build like the Chain Tripper or Lockdown 2.0 can be replaced with a caster for overwhelming benefit. There are non-caster builds that can compete at high levels, so the idea that non-casters reach a point of negligible worth is quite simply false. Shapeshifting, Wild Shape, and Polymorph can indeed shore-up many weaknesses casters have, but I'm not certain they can replace feats, ex abilities, etc.
Well, actually it can. Take the druid for instance. Use the air elemental companion in complete mage. Give it the feats lockdown stands on (standstill, martial study, martial stance) and it compares very favorably to the original while being a single class feature. Lockdown 2.0 has enough versatility to counter that claim (trapfinding et all), but not all noncasters are as optimized as lockdown 2.0 (took 5+ pages to tweak it to competion) and lockdown 2.0 relies heavily on the most caster similar noncasting in existance. Also, lockdown is almost completely party dependant. It simply does almost no damage on it's own and cannot heal itself except with martial spirit.
Fire Riposte:
Make a melee touch attackto deal 4d6 damage
Punishing stance
While in this stance, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with all melee attacks .
Burning Blade:
For the rest of the round, your melee attacks deal +1d6 +3 (my initiator level) damage.
Looks to me like I am interpretting this correctly.
Then, why in the SRD is Melee Touch Attack and Melee Attack defined in seperate places? Would you add the extra damage from punishing stance if you were casting(and thereby melee touch attacking) another with an Inflict spell?
He can choose each time he uses it. I added links to the Dragonborn and Fire Elf races to the updated character post.
Where are the maps at for the areas in this "gauntlet"?
That definitely brings good versatility.
Edit: Nevermind, that was the old adventure.
What people? There seems to be an unspoken argument you're vehemently defending. That melee characters are worthless? The level 20 record for highest damage depends on Tome of Battle. That soloing casters should use save or dies?
Just looking at the first few posts in this thread will garner some of the opinions I was referring to...
Show
The fact that full spellcasters can easily handle most enemies they might encounter makes them broken. Sure, there are certain matches that your usual strategy can't handle, but spellcasters can prepare alot more than just one strategy. Most non-spellcasting classes can't handle situations where their main strategy isn't effective as well as spellcasters can. Of course, it all comes down to how good the guy who plays the spellcaster good at preparing spells. It takes quite a bit of insight and reading through alot of books.
The "overpowered" nature of casters comes mainly from their ability to exploit whatever weakness their enemies have. You picked a critter with a strong Fort save as an example: well, a smart wizard will probably have spells that exploit something their build lacks, like Plane Shift for weak Will, or Power Word Blind for low HP, Web for Reflex, etc etc. Casters have much a lot more combat-ending options available to them, as opposed to a combative character that has to beat his enemies down with HP damage.
"Overpowered" is a relative term. Full casters are generally going to be "overpowered" compared to noncasters because they generally have a lot more versatility.
Sigh...this again.
Look, the previous examples are perfectly valid. The fact that a few appropriate encounters happen to bypass glitterdust in no way diminishes the spell's ability to end an encounter. "A few rounds" is more than sufficient to destroy just about anything. Against a giant, use a will save spell instead. Or, just polymorph into the giant after buffing and beat the snot out of him yourself; ask the fighter to hold your cloak for you, after all your familiar is tag-teaming the giant with you and is too important for cloak-holding duty.
Spellcasting quite simply breaks the generally accepted game conventions that everyone else, including most monsters, play by. By forcing a single save of the caster's choosing, a combat can effectively end. Then all one needs to do is pump that DC to obscene levels. On the other hand, arcane spellcasting and wildshape specifically are able to duplicate the stats of most monsters in the game in one way or another. Alter Self (Troglodyte) plus mage armor, for instance, while a terrible combination overall, means the lowly wizard has an almost unhittable AC at 3rd level. Translation: whatever the party is fighting, an intelligent caster can turn into its bane. DnD is a complicated game of rock-paper-scissors, and casters can be any one they need in a given circumstance.
Which 4 casters have made it through yet?
Show me how PhraedrusXY's build makes it through.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14441808&postcount=313
5 battles, 5 victories.
What was pre-emptive of my conclusion?
The part where you say "caster builds are not doing well in the mini-encounters".
Here's another bit of interesting politician shining through, "The casters (Even knowing the opponents ahead of time (out of game)) are still making changes to their characters after they submit."
Like the one non-caster.
I know, I know, it was a legality issue for the lone non-caster. But it's still interesting how the omission makes it look.
I had a premise (casters < melee 1-7) -- we then had a test (look for caster builds to show this to be false) -- we have had hundreds upon hundreds of posts looking for them -- and when we look at how things currently rest, they accurately reflect what you quoted me saying.
When we look at how things currently rest, casters are looking equal to non-casters at this level (or level range if you prefer).
Honestly though, can you tell me how you hoped to advance this thread's purpose of showing examples of overpowered casters by bringing up things from the other thread (debunking the myth of overpowered casters). It seems to me that my posts in that thread are entirely on point. You might disagree with them, but that seems to me to be a disagreement to have over there, not here.
What's your point? That I shouldn't post what I feel like in this thread? That I shouldn't call out that false statement or show it for what it really is?
Then, why in the SRD is Melee Touch Attack and Melee Attack defined in seperate places? Would you add the extra damage from punishing stance if you were casting(and thereby melee touch attacking) another with an Inflict spell?
you can add the sneak attack damage to an inflict spell, I don't see why punishing stance would be any different.
you can add the sneak attack damage to an inflict spell, I don't see why punishing stance would be any different.
You can?
I have a few questions concerning the Meyer_William's Orc character :
Fire Riposte is a level 2 Swordsage maneuver (Desert Wind is not available to Warblades). Your initiator level for Swordsage should only be 5/2 = 2, not enough to use level 2 maneuvers (they require IL 3+). Also, I believe the maneuver does a flat 4d6 fire damage, I am not sure if punishing stance should add to it. Certainly burning blade would not, it is over at the end of your turn.
Fire Riposte is from my cloak -- not me.
I think punishing stance should add it, it is definitely debatable, and this is the character optimization board. Grey areas like these are allowed.
Also, if the Manticore had simply flung a second round of spikes at you, you would have died.
Yes, I would have been utterly and completely dead. Good thing it didn't
After you drop prone, how do you stand up from prone and then charge in the same round? I am not sure about the aerial combat rules involved in this one, but I think even a flying creature that is on the ground and drops prone, needs to get up before it takes off flying (and charging uphill)?
Simple. I do not stand. I am flying (from the fly spell).
Is there an action associated with using a skill trick? or is it a free action? I don't have CScoundrel with me at the moment.
Swift Action sometimes, sometimes it is part of the action. It kinda depends on what you are doing.
Then, why in the SRD is Melee Touch Attack and Melee Attack defined in seperate places? Would you add the extra damage from punishing stance if you were casting(and thereby melee touch attacking) another with an Inflict spell?
Or initiating a grapple?
Or a trip attempt?
Or using the maneuver Mighty Throw...
When you have seen as many "Fighter vs Wolf" comparisons as we have, you get overly sensitive.
Read through this thread, count the number of times people dismiss noncasters. That is the argument that Kratch is defending against.
If the casters can beat as many encounters as I did, then they could probably be considered balanced. (Seems reasonable)
If the casters cannot beat as many encounters as I did, then they are considered less powerful than noncasters? (Seems reasonable)
If the casters can beat more encounters than noncasters, then they should be considered more powerful (seems reasonable).
The above is true no matter where the bar is -- as we are comparing possible overpowered character to each other. Or, to restate, if the best a caster can do is tie a noncaster, then the caster is not overpowered.
First off, I don't think that Casters are the be all end all at lower levels. I think that casters are at all levels easily top-tier character options, but they don't occupy a tier all of their own until higher levels.
That said, judging casters by their endurance is a little cheap. Very few DMs give more than 4 encounters per day, and this perhaps unfortunate fact is why so many casters do well. If you note, a significant portion of my build was spend to increase my endurance. My character could not handle another encounter, but rarely would he be called upon to do so.
Endurance is nice, and from a game theory perspective probably better than ending quickly, but ending it fast is flashy, and spellcasters are better and ending it fast then fighting all day.
By the way, the first character I actually saw that I thought was patently overpowered was a lvl 10 psywarrior/ fighter/ a few other dips that did 200 or so damage on the charge, pretty much ending fights in one round. Not bad for a martial character.
A manticores attack progression is
Claw/Claw/Bite, +10/+10/+8
Damage: 2d4+5 2d4+5 1d8+2
The bite attack inevitably cannot overcome DR 10/Evil
My AC is 23. The first attack has a 65% chance of missing, so it hits.
The second attack has a 130% chance of missing (since the first one didn't), so it misses.
Average damage is 10. However, since I have DR 10/Evil, assuming average damage benefits me. So I said "Alright, let's assume 1 rolls high, and 1 rolls lower. 2d4 averages to 5. I am pretty sure I get that right.
.
The average damage is not in any way shape or form 10. By adding Dr you change the equation. So instead of 2d4+5 you have 2d4+5-10 with a floor of 0. So lets use a d8 instead of 2d4 to simplify this for the moment. it rolls a 1-5 you take 0. If it rolls 6 you take 1 it it rolls a 7 you take 2. If it rolls an eight you take 3 so the average damage is (0x5+1+2+3)/8=.75 So the average with the DR would be .75 not 0. Well it would be less as your using 2d4s but I hope you get they idea.
Got a few questions. How are you using 2 wands (and a shield in hand) while being grappled (I know you can use wands while grappled, but you need to have them in hand, and I believe there is an item to allow you to hold multiple wands per hand, meaning 1 wand per hand at a time to use it)? How are you negating the wraiths 2nd and 3rd con drain, plus it's first con drain doesn't seem to have been factored into your Max HP's against the dragon (which would thus drop you on round 7). Lastly, is a grapple/constrict check considered a melee attack for purposes of divine retaliation?
I have a 70% chance of making the fortitude save
Round 1: 70% chance = fail
Round 2: 140% chance = sucess. Remaining: 40%
Round 3: 210% chance = sucess. Remaining = 10%.
Shields are strapped to the arm, not held. While you can't manipulate a weapon, certainly you can hold a stick. If you don't believe that, then I can also pay a handful of GP and get a smith to make to make wand grips on the shield, so I can reach across with my free hand and activate them. If you don't believe that, I still have 2 hands whether you like it or not. If you still don't believe that, I could strap them to my wrists. Or buy wrist sheathes (I think they were 50gp, held 3 daggers, free action to put in palm) that are slightly modifier.
Or I could use the same wand all combat for each combat, if you'd prefer. The only difference would be the way I use charges.
Grapple = Part of Melee. Requires a melee attack to begin with.
Constrict = Part of grapple.
On a successful grapple check, a constrictor snake deals 1d3+4 points of damage.
(1d10+8 later).
I am thinking like this.
Grapple is a subset of melee attacks.
Constrict is a subset of grapples.
Therefore, constrict is a subset of melee attacks.
Seems reasonable?
The Max HP against the dragon was from AID. If you'll notice, it went down to 26, then up to 35 (based on an average aid roll).
How do you get a greatsword? The spell uses the deities favored weapon, as you don't have a deity (your choice in domains) leaves you with the alignment options (which I can't find at the moment, but I seem to remember them all being 1 handed weapons like maces and longwords). Even if you wanted to argue otherwise, how does planning and undeath equate to greatswords, I'd think something more like a rapier.
A cleric can gain power from whatever being with divine ranks willing to give it to him. I'm sure if I had the time to waste, I could find a being that would fit, but safe to say, I am certain there is one.
Besides, even if I am a cleric to a concept (Planning and Undeath) whose to say that greatswords can't have great spiritual significance? The books always forget that clerics aren't forced to declare a deity.
Meyer, I'll check your numbers from http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14458422&postcount=527, but something seems iffy about them.
The average damage is not in any way shape or form 10. By adding Dr you change the equation. So instead of 2d4+5 you have 2d4+5-10 with a floor of 0. So lets use a d8 instead of 2d4 to simplify this for the moment. it rolls a 1-5 you take 0. If it rolls 6 you take 1 it it rolls a 7 you take 2. If it rolls an eight you take 3 so the average damage is (0x5+1+2+3)/8=.75 So the average with the DR would be .75 not 0. Well it would be less as your using 2d4s but I hope you get they idea.
Good point. I'll consider re-running it (maybe with a Battle axe to make people happy) with that new system. My god this math is brutal, though.
Gotta run to class
Here's another jab at the dungeon as promised already a couple of pages ago. For those who don't know, this my and carnivore's attempt to display some caster power in an alternate way. I'll provide more extensive math on the encounters later on. Questions and comments can be directed to both of us.General tactics
Aforementioned buff routine carried out before fights.
-Manticore: Cast Chill touch and Fist of Stone. Proceed to beath to bloody pulp.
-Rug: Cast Flaming sphere, roast some marshmellows and enjoy that glass of coke.
-Wraith: Invisibility to undead via potion and then just shoot with Magic missiles.
-Snake: Extend Acid arrow with the rod and when the spell wears of, beat it to death.
-Black dragon: Drink the potion of Protection from Acid, hit the poor sob with Scorching ray twice and Orb of Fire once.
Manticore starts flying? Sure, Alix has fly speed.
I suppose Alix can walk around as Dwarven Ancestor as well making him even less hittable.
You can?
Weapon-like spells from complete arcane. complete arcane page 85, first paragraph, second sentance, just after the first comma. (followed on the next page by the sneak attack section)
Weapon-like spells from complete arcane. complete arcane page 85, first paragraph, second sentance, just after the first comma.
For some reason I've missed that every single time I've went through the book. Thanks!
- Elite Array was used (Better for multiple attribute dependent characters)
- No party (Casters can't get the most out of their abilities without someone else around)
- Only single-enemy encounters (This completely neuters area effects, including and especially battlefield control)
- Casters are more restricted in their options (alternative magic systems are disallowed, but the alternative melee system from Tome of Battle is allowed)
- You actually have your WBL in GP worth of gear of your choice (yeah, right -- in random gear, more like)
- The way the system has been made deterministic has increased the power of some options that mostly belong to the fighter (notably Improved Initiative, some others as well)
- The environment has been deliberately manipulated to eliminate avoidance possibilitiies. The reality is, if you're just there to kill the dragon, there's no way you're bothering with all that other stuff.
There is also just plain not enough information about the battles to make a proper determination.
That said, if we're into allowing liberal rules interpretations (like the Fire Riposte damage stacking thing)...
Fire elf Wizard 5 (Fighter feat variant from UA) (Elf Generalist wizard substitution level)
Feats: Otherworldly, [Free Feat], Evasive Reflexes (Wizard bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency Kusari-Gama (Wizard bonus)
The basic tactic here is to Alter Self to a Dwarven Ancestor to get large size, and then use Evasive Reflexes to keep your enemies always at 20' (whenever they move, you get a free 5' step, which puts them back at 20', repeat). The interpretation that the number of these steps is unlimited is certainly no less absurd than the interpretation that Punishing Stance adds to Fire Riposte damage.
Then, take spells that defend you against ranged attacks and spells (protection from energy, protection from normal missiles, etc).
I don't have nearly enough time to fully flesh this out, but if someone wants to do it, I think it would win easily.
Fire Riposte is from my cloak -- not me.
You still have to meet the pre-reqs to use Fire Riposte from the Cloak and that includes initiator level. If your initiator level for Desert Wind maneuvers is too low you cannot use the maneuver from the cloak.
Additionally the Flying rules are quite complicated. I don't have my books with me at the moment but having played a Raptoran Scout in my last campaign I don't think you are allowed to gain altitude whilst charging. Also the Manticore has poor maneuverability and a stall speed, there is no way it would 5' step and full attack you when it is close enough to the ground for you to uphill charge to reach it (at 1/2 movement rate as it takes 10ft of movement to gain 5ft in altitude) as it would then fall out of the sky and likely impact the ground and die (and as a flying creature would also know this). So it would make a half move and then fling more spikes at you as this is its best option in Aerial combat.
PhaedrusXY is using that tactics to a good effect already.
He's using Stand Still, which (while it works even in a strict interpretation of the rules) is nowhere near as reliable.
He's using Stand Still, which (while it works even in a strict interpretation of the rules) is nowhere near as reliable.
And amazingly he still got through. No offense to you, maybe I read your build too hastily. If you have time and desire, please see how your character goes through the dungeon!
I'm working on an enchanter build (blasphemy, gasp) that should do quite well in this, if I'm thinking straight. I'll post it, strategy, etc. when finished.
Good, good! More builds the better. Let me know if you need any help.
And amazingly he still got through. No offense to you, maybe I read your build too hastily. If you have time and desire, please see how your character goes through the dungeon!
Well yes, he did. Using Evasive Reflexes just makes it an absolute certainty -- if you can manage to survive ranged attacks, it literally does not matter how high level the monsters get at that point. You can keep leveling them up until you get a dragon whose breath kills you too quickly. The Wizard has the defensive array necessary to survive ranged attacks. I don't think you're misunderstanding anything, except for the reason why 100% reliability is a good thing.
That said, no, I have neither the time nor desire to actually build that character fully. I find this entire competition pretty inane, and my build is not one that I would either actually allow or actually play (and even if I did, it would not be terribly effective in a real game -- just in this string of "Me alone vs. 1 monster" style dungeon). If someone does feel like it, however, or if we find a group that Stand Still stops working against, maybe Evasive Reflexes could step into that gap.
I hate seeing builds like this in normal games as well. Having AC well over 30 at level 3 just makes my brain hurt.
L'Avantgarde Noire
It's always nice to have the option, though. It's important to be able to drag everyone's bodies back to the local priest when they're all dead. -.-
L'Avantgarde Noire
That's why the build I posted has a riding dog... Not to drag *her* body, but those of her unlucky partymates.
L'Avantgarde Noire
My init bonus is 6 higher than his, so lets assume I win init.
This ... is the toughest fight yet.
Round 1: I drink my potion of flight, drop prone, and rage.
My AC vs it: (10 (base) +4 (armor) +4 (prone) +2 (rage variant) +2 dex -2 (punishing stance) -1 (vulnerable) -1 (Aggressive)) = 18
It flings 6 spikes at me, (55% hit, 110% miss, 165% hit, 220% miss, 275% hit, 330% hit) dealing (3 hits * 6.5) = 19.5 damage
End of Round 1: Me: 14.5, It: 57
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp. Uphill charge, Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage. Each. It now has 5 hps left.
It dies if we include crits -- unsure how this works so will exclude it.
Per Monster Manual, it closes in melee (5'step) and claws me. It attacks (85% chance), dealing 10 damage. This activates the fire riposte (95% = 255%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) +1d6+3 (burning blade)= 14+3.5+3+3.5=24 damage, killing it.
Using the same tactics as the first attempt, I dealt more damage and took 0.2 hps less damage.
End of Round 2: Me: 5.5, It: dead
I wait multiple rounds (11 rounds or so) to return to 1/2 hps. (16.5), then I burn a charge from my healing belt bringing me to 25.5 hps.
Resources used:
One potion of flight and 1 charge from belt of healing.
Round 1: Fine.
Round 2
You heal 1 hp. Uphill charge, Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage.
One misses. Your amalgamated percents only make a 60% threshold for the second attack.
Per Monster Manual, it closes in melee (5'step) and claws me. It has 30% left over from last round (330%-3 100% successes), so it's attack's are +10 versus AC 16. 70%/70% and 60%, giving it a progression of 100/170/230, which means the claw and the bite hit.
Your attack is now +10 (no longer charging) against it's 16 ac. 70% chance of hitting.
The first blow activates the fire riposte (60%+70% = 130%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) (you don't get a "1 turn" ability since it is no longer your turn)= 14+3.5= 17.5 damage. It's taken 43.5 damage.
Round 1 it dealt 19.5 damage, -1 for fast healing 1 = 18.5 damage
Round 2 it deals 2d4+5 and 1d8+2 = 10+6.5 damage = 16.5 damage.
You've now taken 35 damage.
You die.
You see, the problem is, with attacks at 80%, 80%, 70%, you assume all 3 hit. The total percentage of those attacks is 230%, which means the odds of all three hitting is Only 30%. You assume the 3rd attack hits with 30% odds, and use that to kill the creature.
Heck, even if we let your first two attacks hit (since they do more damage), it has 5hp remaining, blah blah blah - it still kills you. You can't claim a hit off a 30% chance. That's ridiculous.
Where are the maps at for the areas in this "gauntlet"?
There aren't any. They're crammed into the maps for the old "gauntlet", which means the snake is squeezing and trapped.
ReaderOfPosts: And what's that damage record? You mean the shuriken thingee? Not really wanting to rain on your parade, but there's stuff doing infinite damage at lower levels and without Tome of Battle. The record of arbitrarily large amount of damage that is not infinite still goes to the Affinity field shuffle, at least as far as I know.
Probably referring to Chuck, a Ruby Knight Vindicator who uses DMM Persist on Footsteps of the Divine, discharges it for one round of +thousands to speed, and then initiates Tornado Throw. I believe that's the finite, non-arbitrary damage record.
Just don't want my build shot down for illegality.
L'Avantgarde Noire
L'Avantgarde Noire
My comments are in bold, red text
Here is where I got to before I read the discussion about moving the thresholds. I decided there was no more point in continuing the redo if it was just going to be hand-waved away because of not meeting the new consensus for thresholds.
CR 5:
Encounter 1: Manticore
My init bonus is 6 higher than his, so lets assume I win init.
This ... is the toughest fight yet.
Round 1: I drink my potion of flight, drop prone, and rage.
My AC vs it: (10 (base) +4 (armor) +4 (prone) +2 (rage variant) +2 dex -2 (punishing stance) -1 (vulnerable) -1 (Aggressive)) = 18
It flings 6 spikes at me [color=red]from 155 ft. away; that's half its fly speed inside of its maximum range.[/color], (55% hit, 110% miss, 165% hit, 220% miss, 275% hit, 330% [color=red]miss[/color]) dealing (3 hits * 6.5) = 19.5 damage
End of Round 1: Me: [color=red]29 - 19.5 = 9.5[/color], It: 57
[color=red]I'm not sure how you ended up with 14.5 hit points after taking 19.5. Whirling Frenzy barbarian doesn't get a Con boost[/color]
Round 2:
I heal 1 hp [color=red]up to 10.5[/color]. Uphill charge [color=red]ending 35 ft. away[/color] , Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage. Each. It now has 5 hps left. [color=red]All this in gray goes away because of not being able to attack the manticore. The manticore again spikes the character for 19.5 damage, ending this encounter.
(I'm sure this is where Meyer would emphasize the 'A' in the manticore combat section, implying that it would only volley once. If the manticore instead closes and fly-by attacks, it deals 9 damage, dropping the intrepid hero to 0.5 hit points in exchange for 17.5 damage (which doesn't work the way you think*). Next round is either a full attack = deal barbarian, or fly-by attack = dead barbarian.)
That 155 ft. range should apply to all characters instead of 'it starts within easy slaying range'
*If it works the way you seem to imply, then a rogue no longer attacks any flanked creature. It attempts to grapple instead (melee touch attack) and deals sneak attack much more easily. It fails the opposed grapple check after making the melee touch attack, and repeats for the next attack. See how stupid that seems?[/color]
You do not have sufficient Swordsage IL to use Fire Riposte even from the cloak.
A manticore that just went from full hp to 5 hp in a single round probably would not close to melee (despite what the monster manual says), it would start to hit and run and try to escape. Another round of 6 spikes = you are dead (especially now that you are not prone for the AC bonus and have the charging AC penalty). I will read up on the aerial combat rules, but I believe that if you want to claim prone AC bonus, you must "stand up" or "fly up" from the prone position before you continue to move properly. Either that, or it doesn't make sense for a flier to be prone at all.
In addition, if the geography of the rug's room is open at all, it could charge you and kill you on round 2 when you only have 8hp remaining, instead of only double moving and then letting you escape. Since you have to move in a straight line for the running jump bonus (it seems you did this since your sudden leap had the running jump distance factored into it), there is a good possibility that the rug could charge you.
So not only is your build disqualified for being illegal, you still die to 2 out of the first 4 encounters (you haven't post the dragon encounter yet from the last iteration).
Looks to me more like non-casters 0, casters 3 at this point. Which surprises me, because I truly believe non-casters should be more powerful at this stage of the game.
Yes, Chucks Tornado Throws for somewhere in the trillions.
L'Avantgarde Noire
The record done by psly4mne, Theilaxu_Ghola et al isn't a dealing with figures I use when I go out and buy milk either.
Total damage > (2.5*10^36530)^^73600
If Chuck beats that, he sure as hell doesn't need to be worrying about damage reduction. I'll stop this off-topic here.
Round 1: Fine.
Round 2
You heal 1 hp. Uphill charge, Slashing rage, burning blade. My to hit ( 7(str) +4(bab) +1 (weapon) +2 (charge) -2 (slashing rage)) = +12 his AC is 17 (80% / 160% chance). I do (2d4 (weapon) +10 (str) +1 (magic) +1d6+3 (burning blade)+1d6 (punishing stance)) =26 damage.
One misses. Your amalgamated percents only make a 60% threshold for the second attack.
This is why I stopped typing this up. Otto had said 50%, I do a few fights, and now someone else says 60%. Grrrr....
Per Monster Manual, it closes in melee (5'step) and claws me. It has 30% left over from last round (330%-3 100% successes), so it's attack's are +10 versus AC 16. 70%/70% and 60%, giving it a progression of 100/170/230, which means the claw and the bite hit.
Your attack is now +10 (no longer charging) against it's 16 ac. 70% chance of hitting.
Care to show me where it says that charge effects end at the end of my turn? I must have missed that.
Also, why do I have to hit its NORMAL AC with my TOUCH ATTACK.
The first blow activates the fire riposte (60%+70% = 130%, a hit). I deal 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6 (punishing stance) (you don't get a "1 turn" ability since it is no longer your turn)= 14+3.5= 17.5 damage. It's taken 43.5 damage.
Round 1 it dealt 19.5 damage, -1 for fast healing 1 = 18.5 damage
Round 2 it deals 2d4+5 and 1d8+2 = 10+6.5 damage = 16.5 damage.
You've now taken 35 damage.
You die.
You see, the problem is, with attacks at 80%, 80%, 70%, you assume all 3 hit. The total percentage of those attacks is 230%, which means the odds of all three hitting is Only 30%. You assume the 3rd attack hits with 30% odds, and use that to kill the creature.
Heck, even if we let your first two attacks hit (since they do more damage), it has 5hp remaining, blah blah blah - it still kills you. You can't claim a hit off a 30% chance. That's ridiculous.
Check the numbers again ... this is from Otto's post about 50% threshold. Even excluding Burning Blade (which ends at the end of my turn apparently) I still kill this -- assuming it follows MM tactics (close in on melee). If it uses other tactics I die. And the thing about stalling/etc ... I dont know about aerial combat -- so cannot comment about that.
This is meyer's battle, using thresholds of 50%, 150%, 250% etc.
Which Otto provided
Here is where I got to before I read the discussion about moving the thresholds. I decided there was no more point in continuing the redo if it was just going to be hand-waved away because of not meeting the new consensus for thresholds.
Which, coincidentally enough -- happened.
It flings 6 spikes at me [color=red]from 155 ft. away; that's half its fly speed inside of its maximum range.[/color], (55% hit, 110% miss, 165% hit, 220% miss, 275% hit, 330% [color=red]miss[/color]) dealing (3 hits * 6.5) = 19.5 damage
Which is amazing, as this is at night -- and both it and I have the same darkvision range (60') -- so, it attacks me -- when it cannot see me.
End of Round 1: Me: [color=red]29 - 19.5 = 9.5[/color], It: 57
[color=red]I'm not sure how you ended up with 14.5 hit points after taking 19.5. Whirling Frenzy barbarian doesn't get a Con boost[/color]
I posted this in an earlier post -- I misadded my hps (6+6.5+6.5+5.5+5.5+3.5 = 33)
(I'm sure this is where Meyer would emphasize the 'A' in the manticore combat section, implying that it would only volley once. If the manticore instead closes and fly-by attacks, it deals 9 damage, dropping the intrepid hero to 0.5 hit points in exchange for 17.5 damage (which doesn't work the way you think*). Next round is either a full attack = deal barbarian, or fly-by attack = dead barbarian.)
Nope. I am consistant. It full volleyed vs the other characters, it would full volley vs me as well -- except, I am in MELEE ... which the Monster Manual says it tries to enter ... it does not say "retreats from melee to send more volleys of spikes"
Now -- be honest. If I did not have Fire Riposte ... would the tactics that I am having the manticore use be valid? It legitimately expects to kill me on its attacks.
*If it works the way you seem to imply, then a rogue no longer attacks any flanked creature. It attempts to grapple instead (melee touch attack) and deals sneak attack much more easily. It fails the opposed grapple check after making the melee touch attack, and repeats for the next attack. See how stupid that seems?[/b][/color]
In a similar vein ... no arcane trickster is able to sneak attack with chill touch/shocking grasp/etc ...
Nope. I am consistant. It full volleyed vs the other characters, it would full volley vs me as well -- except, I am in MELEE ... which the Monster Manual says it tries to enter ... it does not say "retreats from melee to send more volleys of spikes"
Except that due to the fact that the Manticore is on the wing and not on the ground and has poor manueverability it must take a move action to stay in the air. So after that move action it is no longer in melee and would volley.
If you want to continue this series of fights where an opponent is flying then you can't ignore the flying rules. And from memory to be able to charge whilst gaining elevation is impossible as you have to spend 10ft of movement to gain 5ft of elevation. From memory the only possibility of avoiding this restriction is if you have perfect manueverability as creatures with perfect manueverability may not have to pay the 10ft for 5 ft of elevation. How a land based movement skill trick like Up the Hill interacts with flying movement I cannot say as I do not have access to The Complete Scoundrel.
Sorry Meyer_William,
You do not have sufficient Swordsage IL to use Fire Riposte even from the cloak.
Four levels of non-tob + 1 level of Tob = Initiator level 3 -- which is enough for a level two manuever
In addition, if the geography of the rug's room is open at all, it could charge you and kill you on round 2 when you only have 8hp remaining, instead of only double moving and then letting you escape. Since you have to move in a straight line for the running jump bonus (it seems you did this since your sudden leap had the running jump distance factored into it), there is a good possibility that the rug could charge you.
I am assuming that you read the fact that there was a door, and that the corridor varied from 5 to 10 ft. The rug, being huge (15x15) is unable to charge as it is squeezed (best case -- worst case, it cannot move through the 5' space)).
So not only is your build disqualified for being illegal, you still die to 2 out of the first 4 encounters (you haven't post the dragon encounter yet from the last iteration).
So far, there is nothing illegal about the build yet. And both instances of me dying based on changing the posted tactics of the monster due to out-of-game knowledge, invalid encounter distance, or changing the formation of the encounter -- each of which should be frowned upon.
I am tired of Meyer saying "Oh, I have a 80% chance to hit, so my first 3 attacks do 80% damage each time, it dies!" And don't even get me started on a system of average damage. It doesn't represent the fact that in DND, some attacks miss and the monster gets extra rounds to do damage.
Once we have a threshold set, then I'll re-run my encounters with the new ruleset.
Here is a link to the character - Finklebottom:
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=62782
Finklebottom is an enchanter, who also dabbles in illusion and necromancy. He has always been fascinated with the mind, and seeks to unlock its secrets. He sees the the study of enchantment as the means to do this. Illusion also interested Finklebottom as, to him, it entails tricking the mind into perceiving unreality - this offers insight into how the mind functions. Finklebottom is painfully aware of the mindless monstrosities which walk the world, constructs, undead, and the like. He is interested in these beings because, although they lack a 'mind' in the normal sense of the world they are still sentient (at least some of the undead are). He seeks to understand this seeming contradiction. He also studies them to better understand their weaknesses, as they are invulnerable to his most potent spells.
Onto strategy!!
Here is what I'm thinking:
Prepared Spells:
0) Daze, Prestidigitation, Open/Close, Ghost Sound, Detect Magic
1) Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Hypnotism, Sleep, Mage Armor, Silent Image
2) Blinding Color Surge, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Yoke of Mercy, Command Undead
3) Suggestion, Shivering Touch, Deep Slumber
Finklebottom casts mage armor before the adventure, giving him +4 to AC. His AC is now 16. Not that it matters. If he gets hit he's pretty much dead.
NOTE The alternate strategy has a more realistic equipment loadout, is a more realistic play-style for this type of character, AND it performs better overall on post-analysis. So I recommend using that, where applicable. I don't want to take the time to retype everything. For analysis, please use the alternate strategy where applicable.
Manticore
The villagers have told Finklebottom that there is something evil in the hills on the way to the cave, or some such thing. So, he is having his hummingbird familiar scout a mile ahead of him. The hummingbird is too tiny to be a meal, and very innocuous, so chances are that the manticore will ignore it, especially because it will predictably run away when it chances upon the monster. Empathic Link will let Finklebottom know that the hummingbird has found the a large flying monster.
Once Finklebottom gets closer to the position, he will do two things: First he will drink a potion of fly. Then he will drink a potion of invisibility. His hummingbird will lead him within sight of the manticore, before flying away. Finklebottom will then fly up to where the manticore is (I read somewhere that it will start out flying). No move silently checks should be necessary since Finklebottom is flying, I think. Upon seeing the Manticore Finklebottom makes a Knowledge (Arcana) check. If we take 10, the result is a 22, which should be enough to tell him that the manticore is lawful evil, intelligent, and speaks common. Now, even if Finklebottom alerts the manticore to his presence and combat starts, his initiative bonus of +7 (the hummingbird is out of arm's reach, so no extra +4) handily beats the manticore's +2.
Once within range of Suggestion (35 ft) he casts it on the Manticore, suggesting that it and him as his guard go and loot the treasure in the cave together, splitting it 50/50 (the manticore is a lawful creature, so that split should be OK with it. In addition it is intelligent enough to know that it being a guard type would be the sensible way to go about getting treasure, as Finklebottom is delicate). The DC for this suggestion is 19, and the manticore's will save is +3, so the Manticore only saves on a roll of 16 or better (75% success chance). I think it is safe to assume that the manticore fails the save.
Resources used:
1 3rd level spell
1 Fly Potion
1 Invisibility Potion
The villagers have told Finklebottom that there is something evil in the hills on the way to the cave, or some such thing. So, he is having his hummingbird familiar scout a mile ahead of him. The hummingbird is too tiny to be a meal, and very innocuous, so chances are that the manticore will ignore it, especially because it will predictably run away when it chances upon the monster. Empathic Link will let Finklebottom know that the hummingbird has found the a large flying monster.
Once Finklebottom gets closer to the position, he will do two things: First he will drink a potion of fly. Then he will drink a potion of invisibility. His hummingbird will lead him within sight of the manticore, before flying away. Finklebottom will then fly up to where the manticore is (I read somewhere that it will start out flying). No move silently checks should be necessary since Finklebottom is flying, I think. Upon seeing the Manticore Finklebottom makes a Knowledge (Arcana) check. If we take 10, the result is a 22, which should be enough to tell him that the manticore is lawful evil, intelligent, and speaks common. Now, even if Finklebottom alerts the manticore to his presence and combat starts, his initiative bonus of +7 (the hummingbird is out of arm's reach, so no extra +4) handily beats the manticore's +2.
Once within range of Suggestion (35 ft) he casts it on the Manticore, suggesting that it and him as his guard go and loot the treasure in the cave together, splitting it 50/50 (the manticore is a lawful creature, so that split should be OK with it. In addition it is intelligent enough to know that it being a guard type would be the sensible way to go about getting treasure, as Finklebottom is delicate). The DC for this suggestion is 19, and the manticore's will save is +3, so the Manticore only saves on a roll of 16 or better (75% success chance). I think it is safe to assume that the manticore fails the save.
Resources used:
1 3rd level spell
1 Fly Potion
1 Invisibility Potion
Being a Grey Elf, and using the 1 and 3 elven wizard substitution levels from RotW will be -1 feat, but give:
+2 int (+1 to all DC's)
+1 3rd level spell
+1 spell/level, free.
-5 hp, +1 ac and dexterity related things
It'll also double the bonus from your hummingbird familiar, which means you can replace the human feat you lose with improved initiative, since you'll get that much bonus again.
Build
NE Lesser Aasimar Cloistered Cleric 2/Focused Conjurer 1/Master of Shrouds 2
S 8 (8)
D 10 (10)
C 15 (15)
I 12 (12)
W 16 (13+2+1)
H 16 (14+2)
HP: 36
AC: 18
BAB/Grapple: +2/+1
Speed: 30
NE Lesser Aasimar Cloistered Cleric 2/Focused Conjurer 1/Master of Shrouds 2
S 8 (8)
D 10 (10)
C 15 (15)
I 12 (12)
W 16 (13+2+1)
H 16 (14+2)
HP: 36
AC: 18
BAB/Grapple: +2/+1
Speed: 30
*If it works the way you seem to imply, then a rogue no longer attacks any flanked creature. It attempts to grapple instead (melee touch attack) and deals sneak attack much more easily. It fails the opposed grapple check after making the melee touch attack, and repeats for the next attack. See how stupid that seems?[/b][/color]
A simple touch attack (particularly a grapple attampt) does no damage, so the sneak attack would do the exact same damage as the touch attack, IE nothing. It needs to be some kind of damageing attack to get sneak attack added, a grapple attempt does not meet this requirment.
I refer you to the constant use of "extra damage" and "optimal use of her weapon"
In a similar vein ... no arcane trickster is able to sneak attack with chill touch/shocking grasp/etc ...
Yes actually, they are.
..........................
It really amazes me how petty some people are getting. I'm not refering to calling Meyer out on some mistakes. This thread isn't even about melee's, It's about casters. Your all so busy fussing over how meyer did his math (not even the math itself, but what threashold to use, and you pro casters can't even agree on it (otto said 50%, Ikeren started off at 100% and is still jumping around between 60-80), and you expect Meyer to know exactly which ones right? And considering how many others have put some math down to prove their case, you'd think you'd be telling them to do it too. Your giving meyer a hard time on the math because he is the ONLY person with math to harp on, thats got to count for something... If you seriously want to give someone a hard time, how about trying the people who are posting "i cast these 3 spells and win the encounter, then move on and cast these 4 spells and move on", never having taken damage, never having a save succeed, sometimes not even having a complete build (you know the ones, the ones Ikeren claimed we're "dismissing").
As for your casters succeeding, at least 3 of them are practically the same build (otherworldly +alter self. Is that the only abuse available to low level casters? Is that the only thing that makes people believe casters are overpowered at this level?), and none of them are math'd out except what Meyer had done. I'm glad to see the addition of the master of shrouds and enchanter builds.
.............................
I've also noticed no-one has replied to my post here, I'm truly curious on the what you have to say, particularly you Otto, who has a tendency to get involved in these discussions, but always complains when I refer back to posts such as the ones I quoted. you get upset when I address opinions such as those quoted, despite the fact that they are often prevalent in the discussion you joined in on. Do you agree with those I've quoted, or do you disagree? If you agree, then say as much for once. If you disagree, then say as much for those who tend to follow you. Ether stand behind the opinion, or quit perpetuating it with your devils advocate approach against those trying to dismiss it.
Why can't we agree on a 60 to 80% success threshold, with a success counting as a carry over -100%?
I am tired of Meyer saying "Oh, I have a 80% chance to hit, so my first 3 attacks do 80% damage each time, it dies!" And don't even get me started on a system of average damage. It doesn't represent the fact that in DND, some attacks miss and the monster gets extra rounds to do damage.
Once we have a threshold set, then I'll re-run my encounters with the new ruleset.
I am sorry you feel that way. There was some contention about the average damage model, 50% threshold was the first threshold suggested ... so I followed it. I have no desired to constantly rerun my battles using different thresholds.
By the way, statistically, the chances of three attacks at 80% all hitting is 80%*80%*80% = 51.2% -- meaning, it is the most likely thing to happen.
The example with the manticore, the numbers are actually higher than that.
My method of using average damage (when the chance to hit on both sides is very high) most closely represents what should happen on average.
If you would like me to run using a different mathematical model which less closely represents what one would expect to see happen, then I fail to see what you are trying to prove?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
In a similar vein ... no arcane trickster is able to sneak attack with chill touch/shocking grasp/etc ...
Yes actually, they are.
Actually, I knew that ... I was just tossing something out that was known to be true in a negative fashion to attempt to show something. Sorry if this was misinterpetted.
As for your casters succeeding, at least 3 of them are practically the same build (otherworldly +alter self. Is that the only abuse available to low level casters? Is that the only thing that makes people believe casters are overpowered at this level?), and none of them are math'd out except what Meyer had done. I'm glad to see the addition of the master of shrouds and enchanter builds.
Each of those two builds (enchanter/shrouds) specifically says they are not done yet -- so it stands to expect that there is nothing there yet.
I've also noticed no-one has replied to my post here, I'm truly curious on the what you have to say, particularly you Otto, who has a tendency to get involved in these discussions, but always complains when I refer back to posts such as the ones I quoted. you get upset when I address opinions such as those quoted, despite the fact that they are often prevalent in the discussion you joined in on. Do you agree with those I've quoted, or do you disagree? If you agree, then say as much for once. If you disagree, then say as much for those who tend to follow you. Ether stand behind the opinion, or quit perpetuating it with your devils advocate approach against those trying to dismiss it.
Sorry, I don't normally reply to things that I find that I agree with.
But for the record, I am finding that the conclusions drawn from what you quoted and your response to be logical.
1)Casters are not Broken before level 6, from 1-5 they are not the strongest(Divine Casters are Stronger physically than Arcane casters due to BAB and HD and Saves)....... there are a few Spells that are very strong for thier level(Sleep, Color Spray,etc..), but that is not unbalancing.... unless you only have one encounter/day
2)casters rapidly gain power from 6-9th , they get access to powerful feats,and spells that allow them to dominate encounters..... but they still need a Party to help them out... they dont have the resources to give high output vs many encounters
3)from 10th lvl+ they can outshine many non-casters by means of thier spells, and now they have enough feats and spells to last thru many encounters... or escape most situtations
4)@15th lvl they gain access to 8th lvl spells they are truely powerful, but @17th lvl when casters gain access to 9th lvl spells, they can alter the coures of the game to fit thier own will.... now they are Broken...but thats the goal of the game , isnt it???
5)without ToB, non-casters will have trouble keeping up with the power gains a caster gets. at low levels they will be stronger physically, especially for Melee combat.... but there are other non-combat encounters that favor casters(detection/info gathering, stealth, Diplomatic, Transport, etc...)
just for the record.... i think that :
Meyer_William
PhaedrusXY
Tshern
Kratch
CrimsonDeath
Ikeren
zarzak
Otto the Bugbear
amalcon
as well as the many other posters have contributed good ideas and Builds.... i like this thread
i dont think Casters are Broken at Low levels, without ToB, it is difficult for Non-casters to keep up with casters at higher levels.....except in situtations where Magic is negated or cant be used, then skills prove thier worth
:D
If this doesn't work we can switch his prepared spells around so he uses Touch of Idiocy instead (move out Blinding Color Surge for it). The snake's int will automatically drop to 0, making it helpless. The manticore can now kill it at will.
This is an example of metagaming. Remember, you do not know what your opponents are (except for the dragon) unless you show how you come across that knowledge.
The party continues along, until they come upon the wraith. Combat ensues. Finklebottom wins initiative again (that darn +12). Looks like all of Finklebottom's worries about the undead were right, and he's very happy he prepared that Command Undead spell.
What worries did Finklebottom have vs undead and why? Does he normally prepare this?
Ooook. Now the big guy. Finklebottom wins initiative. Here is where I need some help. Finklebottom's first step is to cast Yoke of Mercy on the Dragon. Due to Potent Enchantment the HD limit is caster level + 7; or 12 in our case. So it works. DC is 18. The dragon's will save is +7, so it has a better chance of working than not working.
DC18 vs Save of +7 means an 11 -- or 50% chance of saving.
The dragon has 10 DEX. Shivering Touch does 3d6. Thats an average 9 DEX damage (or drain or whatever it is). We need it to be 1 more to work FOR SURE. Unfortunately finklebottom can't afford any empower/maximize items. Anyone have any ideas? If we do it after the yoke the dragon's touch AC is screwed and the wraith will not have much of a problem hitting the thing for lovely CON damage. + ray of enfeeblement will hurt it more.
Does a knowledge arcana check tell you the monsters dex score? If so, then this is valid tactics. If not, then this is metagaming.
Heighten spell allows us to prepare a heightened Command Undead in a 3rd level slot (replaces Deep Slumber). The Command Undead then has a +1 to DC, so over a 50% chance of working on the wraith. We replace the 2nd lvl slot it occupied with Touch of Idiocy to use against the serpent, allowing the manticore an easy kill. +it makes sense character development wise, as now he would be able to take persistent spell later on in his career.
Is this normal tactics? Or is this metagaming. Remember, you do not know your opponents.
This is an example of metagaming. Remember, you do not know what your opponents are (except for the dragon) unless you show how you come across that knowledge.
Good point
What worries did Finklebottom have vs undead and why? Does he normally prepare this?
Finklebottom is very aware that the undead are resistant to a big chunk of his spells, so he'll usually have something special prepared just in case. One doesn't get to his point in his career without being prepared.
This is an example of metagaming. Remember, you do not know what your opponents are (except for the dragon) unless you show how you come across that knowledge.
Good point
DC18 vs Save of +7 means an 11 -- or 50% chance of saving.
Thanks
Does a knowledge arcana check tell you the monsters dex score? If so, then this is valid tactics. If not, then this is metagaming.
It depends on how high the check is, I think? I think you could definitely get something like "this creature is not very dextrous" with a middling check.
Is this normal tactics? Or is this metagaming. Remember, you do not know your opponents.
Adding Heighten spell into the build I think makes for a more 'normal' wizard build, simply because its something a lot of people will be picking over a feat like "blooded". As for the spell selection, the touch of idiocy thing might be a bit meta. heightened command undead probably isn't though, because Finklebottom will want to be sure it works if he runs into anything yucky.
------
The build still needs more ways to boost DC. I'll think about the grey elf thing. I don't know about the generalist sublevel though; I lose a spell slot at every level except 3rd, I think? If Finklebottom travelled in a party I'd do it, but since he's alone he really needs those slots. Anyways, I'll take a look.
Which Otto provided
Happily. Note that the 50%/+100 threshold is what many of us used in the other gauntlet threads. That's why I picked it. If it's used evenly across the board, as it's been done for so many other board battles, just go with it again. For everybody. Evenly.
Which, coincidentally enough -- happened.
Which is amazing, as this is at night -- and both it and I have the same darkvision range (60') -- so, it attacks me -- when it cannot see me.
Nighttime. Gotcha.
I posted this in an earlier post -- I misadded my hps (6+6.5+6.5+5.5+5.5+3.5 = 33)
I just went to the first post and followed the link to your character. It says 29 hit points. Perhaps that should have been changed to avoid confusion like this? Instead of one post with incorrect information and then some post later, buried in a big thread, where you say you've corrected it.
Nope. I am consistant. It full volleyed vs the other characters, it would full volley vs me as well -- except, I am in MELEE ... which the Monster Manual says it tries to enter ... it does not say "retreats from melee to send more volleys of spikes"
Now -- be honest. If I did not have Fire Riposte ... would the tactics that I am having the manticore use be valid? It legitimately expects to kill me on its attacks.
Now that it's been established that it has to start at 60 ft., which I didn't notice in the post I quoted, it is in melee and it is in charge range on round 2.
In a similar vein ... no arcane trickster is able to sneak attack with chill touch/shocking grasp/etc ...
Bollocks. You're trying to apply one set of rules to another circumstance.
A rogue/caster is flanking and uses a spell to deliver a melee touch attack spell. That attack deals damage. That attack gets to deal sneak attack dice as well.
A rogue is flanking and uses a melee touch attack to initiate a grapple. By your ruling of fire riposte, that melee touch attack gets to add sneak attack dice, because, as you emphasized, it's a "melee touch attack".
You're attempting to claim that fire riposte is working like a touch spell, except it never says anything about dealing weapon damage. Instead, it describes making a melee touch attack, just like initiative a grapple does, and from that you're extrapolating that it supposed to be adding other damage. And you're doing this while not even adding weapon damage to it either.
In short, it just don't work that way.
But hey. I'm willing to see what the sage/custserv has to say on the matter and go with that ruling.
It really amazes me how petty some people are getting. I'm not refering to calling Meyer out on some mistakes. This thread isn't even about melee's, It's about casters. Your all so busy fussing over how meyer did his math (not even the math itself, but what threashold to use, and you pro casters can't even agree on it (otto said 50%, Ikeren started off at 100% and is still jumping around between 60-80), and you expect Meyer to know exactly which ones right?
No. And that's why I don't support Ikeren's suggestion. He can't nail down a number. In addition, like I said, the 50%/150%/etc. threshold was used extensively in the gauntlet without fuss. I thought someone pointed out why that was the best threshold to use, but those threads are LONG and I can't find that single post now.
And considering how many others have put some math down to prove their case, you'd think you'd be telling them to do it too.
That's up to the anti-casters to do.
Your giving meyer a hard time on the math because he is the ONLY person with math to harp on, thats got to count for something ...
He has on the beginning fights, and that does count for something. Everyone should show that math all the time.
I've also noticed no-one has replied to my post here, I'm truly curious on the what you have to say, particularly you Otto, who has a tendency to get involved in these discussions, but always complains when I refer back to posts such as the ones I quoted.
Because you, Kratch, have a tendency to keep picking at something regardless if that person or the discussion has altered or moved on; even if it's changed to a more reasonable pitch.
If it starts as "casters are uber-powerful at all levels and own non-casters", then it progresses to people instead saying "casters look about equal to non-casters at low levels", you bring up really old posts showing the first statement in an attempt to get the argument back to that slant.
Just calling like I see it.
I don't respond to those links you provided because I've never said caster > non-caster at level 1-7. I happen to not agree with Meyer, et. al. that non-caster > caster at those levels. Rather, and I do believe I've said this, caster = non-caster at those levels (I'd probably make the cut-off 1-6, but 7 is close enough for me).
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
So, multiquote is busted for me again. I was going to respond to more posts, but I guess I'll have to wait until lunchtime to do so now.
I just went to the first post and followed the link to your character. It says 29 hit points. Perhaps that should have been changed to avoid confusion like this? Instead of one post with incorrect information and then some post later, buried in a big thread, where you say you've corrected it.
Good point -- I will repost the corrected character, and update post 1 to show the location of each.
Bollocks. You're trying to apply one set of rules to another circumstance.
A rogue/caster is flanking and uses a spell to deliver a melee touch attack spell. That attack deals damage. That attack gets to deal sneak attack dice as well.
A rogue is flanking and uses a melee touch attack to initiate a grapple. By your ruling of fire riposte, that melee touch attack gets to add sneak attack dice, because, as you emphasized, it's a "melee touch attack".
You're attempting to claim that fire riposte is working like a touch spell, except it never says anything about dealing weapon damage. Instead, it describes making a melee touch attack, just like initiative a grapple does, and from that you're extrapolating that it supposed to be adding other damage. And you're doing this while not even adding weapon damage to it either.
In short, it just don't work that way.
But hey. I'm willing to see what the sage/custserv has to say on the matter and go with that ruling.
In one (shocking grasp) you have a melee touch attack that deals damage.
In the other (fire riposte) you have a melee touch attack that deals damage.
But yes, it should be interesting to see what response you get from cust serv
No. And that's why I don't support Ikeren's suggestion. He can't nail down a number. In addition, like I said, the 50%/150%/etc. threshold was used extensively in the gauntlet without fuss. I thought someone pointed out why that was the best threshold to use, but those threads are LONG and I can't find that single post now.
However, some of us used weighted averages as we thought (think) that they are more fair, especially since it is easily possible to include crititical hits in the form of slightly more damage. Using the thresholds it will be almost impossible to ever crit, even with extended crit range.
If it starts as "casters are uber-powerful at all levels and own non-casters", then it progresses to people instead saying "casters look about equal to non-casters at low levels", you bring up really old posts showing the first statement in an attempt to get the argument back to that slant.
Just calling like I see it.
I don't respond to those links you provided because I've never said caster > non-caster at level 1-7. I happen to not agree with Meyer, et. al. that non-caster > caster at those levels. Rather, and I do believe I've said this, caster = non-caster at those levels (I'd probably make the cut-off 1-6, but 7 is close enough for me).
If, before these threads, casters > melee (all levels), and currently, casters = melee (low levels only) ... I think progress is being made.
I completely agree that at this stage of the game, based on this thread and the mini-encounter posts so far, noncasters are not shown to be greater than casters at present. Plus, there is only one noncaster build. I do know of 1-2 builds right now that are being worked on by people other than myself, and look forward to their being posted.
So, multiquote is busted for me again. I was going to respond to more posts, but I guess I'll have to wait until lunchtime to do so now.
What is multi-quote?
Four levels of non-tob + 1 level of Tob = Initiator level 3 -- which is enough for a level two manuever
This might be true if Warblades had access to Desert Wind maneuvers. Your Swordsage IL is still 5/2 = 2. Not high enough for level 2 Desert Wind maneuvers. So no Fire Riposte.
There is no way the manticore would stop and trade full attacks with you in mid-air. It has a "clumsy" flight rating, meaning it must maintain forward velocity. I think it is much more probable that it would either use fly-by attack, or if it suddenly went from full hp to 5 hp or whatever, it most certainly would launch another spike volley and move away instead, avoiding melee with you. I think you still have to take a move-equivalent action to re-orient yourself from a "prone" position, even while flying. Just because you have a flying movement rate doesn't mean changing from prone to standing becomes a free action. Up the Hill skill trick specifically applies to moving up a "steep slope" or "stairs", it probably doesn't even apply to flying movement which has its own rules about how fast and at what angle a creature can ascend. There are numerous problems with your tactics here, and you die to the Manticore.
As, for the rug room, we don't really have a tactical map, but I doubt the room would be precisely large enough to fit the rug with no additional space. If you can't make it back to the door in 30-40 feet, the rug could charge. Also, you need 5 ranks in jump to buy your skill tricks, might want to add that to the character sheet when you revise it.
If, before these threads, casters > melee (all levels), and currently, casters = melee (low levels only) ... I think progress is being made.
Except that the vast majority of the CO regulars already agreed with that statement. Low levels is where it is somewhat balanced, much more so due to ToB.
That's like saying you've suddenly gotten everyone to come along and say that apples are red.
As for the legitimacy of this "proving" anything? It doesn't, as we can see by both sides calling out problems in tactics and builds. In example, it's possible to make a commoner that can complete the "adventure." Should we then assume commoners are good and equal to PC classes?
Except that the vast majority of the CO regulars already agreed with that statement. Low levels is where it is somewhat balanced, much more so due to ToB.
That's like saying you've suddenly gotten everyone to come along and say that apples are red.
Let's be honest here. What CO regulars believed beforehand isn't very clear. Someone can claim casters are pathetic at low levels and everyone will point to Grease and Color Spray, Alter Self and Scorching Ray to say otherwise. Now that people are being asked to demonstrate anything, it becomes much more muddied.
The problem is exaggeration. Instead of simply making a statement, people drive the point home to ridiculous heights. Non-casters suck big time, and casters are filled with phenomenal cosmic power. If that's the case, show it to be true. If not, let's stop saying that it is.
And the notion that balance occurs at low levels mostly due to ToB is surprising. The way people paint it, it's impossible to play the game as anything short of a caster or initiator. And everyone here, no matter who you are, knows that to be false.
As for the legitimacy of this "proving" anything? It doesn't, as we can see by both sides calling out problems in tactics and builds. In example, it's possible to make a commoner that can complete the "adventure." Should we then assume commoners are good and equal to PC classes?
Such a commoner will use UMD, not fighter feats or ToB maneuvers. This proves caster builds didn't show them to be indispensable to the party. Which comes as no surprise, because very few people tried to present builds underlying casters' strong points (the exception being Ikeren's DMM); instead the majority opted for Alter Self, Power Word: Pain, Ray of Stupidity, and Shriveling Touch, all of them DC-irrelevant.
At level 3, his weakest level compared to a melee, he makes several fights trivial. By level 5, hes ending fights with his spells. By 7, hes contributes far more to game play than almost any melee can. By 9, hes broken beyond anything a noncaster can do.
This was the starting attitude of pro-casters.
The truth turned out to be different.
By level 3 casters were not able to "make several fights trivial". Nor by level 5 by the way.
By said level 5 many casters were unable to end fights with spells and resorted to bows and melee attacks for onerous exchanges lasting dozens of rounds.
Something tells me level 7 and 9 milestones will be a disappointment to pro-casters as well.
In example, it's possible to make a commoner that can complete the "adventure." Should we then assume commoners are good and equal to PC classes?
The premise of the game is to complete adventures. So if it can be shown that commoners can do this, I fail to see why we would conclude anything differently than with a PC class. A lot of power comes from wealth in 3.5. That's simply the nature of the beast. But saying that a commoner can do it too doesn't debunk the intent of this thread. It simply adds another contender to the ring.
This might be true if Warblades had access to Desert Wind maneuvers. Your Swordsage IL is still 5/2 = 2. Not high enough for level 2 Desert Wind maneuvers. So no Fire Riposte.
Do you have to meet IL required to gain the maneuver, or do you just have to meet its maneuver requirements? After all, you are not learning it, just using it via the item.
-AS-
Except that the vast majority of the CO regulars already agreed with that statement. Low levels is where it is somewhat balanced, much more so due to ToB.
That's like saying you've suddenly gotten everyone to come along and say that apples are red.
If the vast magority of the CO regulars agree with that statement, then obviously these types of posts are not directed at them, but rather those that do believe the claims, such as those I've quoted from the first page. The problem arises when those same CO regulars enter the debate, ignoring the fact that the debate is addressing the misconceptions of casters overpoweredness, ignore the already existing posts that have demonstrated those misconceptions and begin telling the people trying to disprove the misconceptions that they're wrong (without ever telling those with the misconceptions that they are wrong, thereby leaving them to believe they are right and those CO regulars don't disagree), simply because they've decided to address a different issue (whatever that issue may be). I posted a number of quotes from just the first half dozen posts from this thread that demonstrate that misconception exists, meaning that Meyers reason for starting these debates, although not relevant to you specifically, IS relevant.
As for the legitimacy of this "proving" anything? It doesn't, as we can see by both sides calling out problems in tactics and builds. In example, it's possible to make a commoner that can complete the "adventure." Should we then assume commoners are good and equal to PC classes?
Using this sort of thing, it is difficult to prove anything to be true, I will agree with that, however, it can be used to prove something as false.
Do you have to meet IL required to gain the maneuver, or do you just have to meet its maneuver requirements? After all, you are not learning it, just using it via the item.
-AS-
The item grants you a maneuver from its discipline for which you can meet the requirements. That means having the necessary IL in an initiator class with access to that maneuver and having the correct number of prequisite maneuvers also from that discipline. A crusader1/commoner19 cannot pick up a devoted spirit item and gain the 9th level Heal-strike maneuver. Although, he could gain up to a (1 + 19/2 = 10 IL) 5th level maneuver (assuming he picked up enough devoted spirit maneuvers with his initial pool of 5 maneuvers known).
The item grants you a maneuver from its discipline for which you can meet the requirements. That means having the necessary IL in an initiator class with access to that maneuver and having the correct number of prequisite maneuvers also from that discipline. A crusader1/commoner19 cannot pick up a devoted spirit item and gain the 9th level Heal-strike maneuver. Although, he could gain up to a (1 + 19/2 = 10 IL) 5th level maneuver (assuming he picked up enough devoted spirit maneuvers with his initial pool of 5 maneuvers known).
I disagree. Under each maneuver it says the following:
level: Warblade X
Prereq: Y number of Maneuvers
Initiator Action: Z
Range: Whatever
Target: Whatever
Prereqs are clearly stated to be a number of maneuvers. It does not list an initiator level or a class. However, in a previous area, it talks about the initiator level you need to pick up a maneuver (IL3 = 2nd level maneuvers), which I meet.
The item grants you a maneuver from its discipline for which you can meet the requirements. That means having the necessary IL in an initiator class with access to that maneuver and having the correct number of prequisite maneuvers also from that discipline. A crusader1/commoner19 cannot pick up a devoted spirit item and gain the 9th level Heal-strike maneuver. Although, he could gain up to a (1 + 19/2 = 10 IL) 5th level maneuver (assuming he picked up enough devoted spirit maneuvers with his initial pool of 5 maneuvers known).
There is no IL prerequisite to use a maneuver. There is an IL prerequisite to "learn" the maneuver, but none that I can tell to use the items(pg 39, Initiator Level, Multiclass Characters; 44 Prerequisite). The items grant you access to a maneuver you meet the prereqs for, and there is no IL requirement in the entry. This might be because the item requires the creator to know the maneuver and thus have the IL. Its just like any other item with an effect, Winged Boots whether or not you have the right CL to cast fly, seems counterintuitive for the maneuvers to be otherwise. This is by a literal reading, though, and I can see DMs not agreeing.
-AS-
I disagree. Under each maneuver it says the following:
level: Warblade X
Prereq: Y number of Maneuvers
Initiator Action: Z
Range: Whatever
Target: Whatever
Prereqs are clearly stated to be a number of maneuvers. It does not list an initiator level or a class. However, in a previous area, it talks about the initiator level you need to pick up a maneuver (IL3 = 2nd level maneuvers), which I meet.
You need the initiator level in a class with access to the maneuver though. For Fire Riposte, it lists level as Swordsage 2 (level 2 maneuvers require IL 3+). You do not have sufficient swordsage initiator level to take the maneuver. If a maneuver is shared by several classes, it lists it as such (i.e. Swordsage 2, Warblade 2). Since your only weapon to deal damage to the swarm in the CR3 gauntlet was Fire Riposte, you actually never make it to the level 4 and 5 gauntlets.
There is no way the manticore would stop and trade full attacks with you in mid-air. It has a "clumsy" flight rating, meaning it must maintain forward velocity. I think it is much more probable that it would either use fly-by attack, or if it suddenly went from full hp to 5 hp or whatever, it most certainly would launch another spike volley and move away instead, avoiding melee with you.
If it uses fly-by attack, it dies from an AoO (using my weighted average method, which is the only one I like to use) it attempts to hit me, or from the fire riposte (if forced to use the 50% threshold method), however that would be an example of it engaging in melee (which is what the monster says it does).
Spikes, which is not melee, would kill me.
I think you still have to take a move-equivalent action to re-orient yourself from a "prone" position, even while flying. Just because you have a flying movement rate doesn't mean changing from prone to standing becomes a free action.
Why? I am not saying that I am prone or standing, personally, I feel both to be irrelevant when you are talking about a non-winged flier.
Up the Hill skill trick specifically applies to moving up a "steep slope" or "stairs", it probably doesn't even apply to flying movement which has its own rules about how fast and at what angle a creature can ascend. There are numerous problems with your tactics here, and you die to the Manticore.
Would you call a 45 degree angle a "steep slope"? I would. This means it applies.
The fly spell says it is as strenuous as walking, and that you can charge as well as attack normally.
So ... I don't see any problems with my tactics (except, since I learned about the stalling thing, it needs to fly-by-attack to behave as the MM says it should)
As, for the rug room, we don't really have a tactical map, but I doubt the room would be precisely large enough to fit the rug with no additional space. If you can't make it back to the door in 30-40 feet, the rug could charge. Also, you need 5 ranks in jump to buy your skill tricks, might want to add that to the character sheet when you revise it.
rug room ... so, per encounter, the rug fits exactly (15x15). If the room is four times as big (30x30) my tactics work. How much bigger are you deciding the room is.
Sudden leap is a maneuver and was listed.
I average all damage by multiplying average damage by the chances to hit.
In the case of absolute events I consider 0-50% fails and 51-100% succeeds. I keep % from the previous event of the same nature and add on.
I am assuming the dungeon is large enough to accommodate that huge snake, so the poor critter is not fighting cramped. Same with the rug.
I think casters are overpowered when they abuse broken rules and spells. This includes polymorph mechanics (including wildshape), DMM and some animal companions, as well as a tiny handful and very specific spells. I am of the opinion a DM can houserule those few broken bits very easily.
Incidentally, I am also of the opinion non-casers can easily abuse most of the broken spells/mechanics casters use to become overpowered. For instance:
Optimus Copycat
Level 5 Gold Elf Rogue (martial rogue variant)
Str 8 (22) (base 8, PAO in dwarf ancestor)
Dex 10 (8) (base 10, PAO into dwarf ancestor)
Con 10 (28) (base 12, -2 racial, PAO into dwarf ancestor)
Int 16 (8) (14 base, +2 race, PAO into dwarf ancestor)
Wis 13
Cha 16 (base 15, +1 level)
AC 30 (+18 natural armor, +4 chain shirt, -1 size, -1 dex), touch 8 (26 with Scintillating Scales), flatfooted: no change.
HP 65
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3
Initiative +3
Bab +3
Attack: Greatsword +8 (+3 bab, +6 Str, -1 Sz) for 3d6+9 damage
Glaive +8 (+3 bab, +6 Str, -1 Sz) for 2d4+9 damage
Javelin +1 (+3 bab, -1 dex, -1 size) for 1d8+6
Feats: Otherworldy (1), Skill Focus (UMD) (3), Improved Initiative (R1), Power Attack (R3), Close Quarters Fighting (R5)
Skills (88 points), 11 skills maximized:
Balance +7, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Gather Information +11, Hide +3, Listen +9, Move Silently +7, Search +7, Spot +9, Tumble +7, Use Magic Device +18
Class features: trapfinding, trapsense+1, evasion, uncanny dodge, 3 fighter feats
Gear:
Large glaive 18 gp
Large greatsword 100 gp
Ring of UMD +5 2500 gp
6 large javelins 12 gp
Large Chain Shirt with armor spikes 400 gp
2 x Wand of Scorching Ray (CL3) (10c) 900 gp
1 x Wand of Mirror Image (CL3) (10c) 450 gp
1 x Wand of Invisibility (CL3) (10c) 450 gp
2 x Wand of Lesser Vigor (CL1) (10c) 150 gp
2 x Wand of Scintillating Scales (CL 3) (10c) 900 gp
1 x Wand of Greater Magic Weapon (CL 5) (10c) 1125 gp
PAO into Dwarf ancestor CL 15, 1200 gp (alternatively a wand of alter self at CL 5 works fine)
801 gp in other stuff
Encounter 1, manticore
Optimus knows there is some kind of flying monster in the area because of his gather information (take 20: scores 31). He has no idea it is a manticore, but he is confident he is utterly invincible.
The manticore is unlikely to surprise him, given the lack of stealth options of the critter, so I’d say both opponents see each other at long range. Initiative favors Optimus, but the manticore has better long range attacks, so I will say it goes first.
Round 1
Manticore launches a volley of spikes at 180’. +8 to hit AC 30 means it hits only with 20s. Average damage is 6.5 x 0.05 (chance to hit) x 6 (spikes in the volley) or 1.95 hp/round.
Optimus lumbers forward 40’, trying to get within range of the javelins. He could go invisible, but he is singularly unimpressed by the manticore’s aim.
Round 2
The manticore keeps distance and does 1.95 hp more.
Optimus yawns. Changes javelin by wand of lesser vigor.
Round 3
The manticore does 1.95 damage.
Optimus taps himself with the wand (95% chances to work) and will heal 11 hp, 1 per round. I will keep that 5% chance to get a 1 for next wand use.
Round 4
The manticore does 1.95 hp and likely would leave, frustrated, after this pathetic performance. But I am going to play a suicidal manticore so Optimus spends more resources fighting. The manticore maneuvers for a charge next round.
Optimus draws his greatsword, the glaive would give him a longer-reaching AoO when the manticore comes, but he is too cool to care. He also calls names to the manticore.
Round 5
The manticore charges. Has +12 to hit Optimus, so it does with a 18-20. 15% of 2d4+5 means 1.5 damage on average. It also eats an AoO from the greatsword, which being +8 vs AC 15 means 70% of 3d6+9 (19.5 average) or 13.65 hp.
Then Optimus attacks the manticore in his turn, doing 13.65 more hp. He could power attack, but he is too cool to care.
Round 6
The manticore full attacks, but hits only with 20s. Average damage is 5% of 4d4+1d8+12, or 1.325 hp.
Optimus smacks the manticore with +8 to hit AC 17 (60%) doing 11.7
Round 7 and 8
See round 6.
Round 9
Optimus kills the manticore. Damage taken: 14.6 hp. He uses another charge of the wand of lesser vigor (chance of failure +10%).
Optimus arrives to the cave and moves inside, trusting his darkvision to see. He spends a charge of his wand of Scintillating Scales (chances of failure, 15%) to improve his touch AC for a few minutes.
Encounter 2, snake
The giant constrictor snake has hide +10, Listen +9 and Spot +9. It stands a chance to see/hear Optimus come while keeping hidden, so I am going to be generous and say it surprises Optimus.
Surprise round
The snake seeks Optimus with scent and pinpoints when it comes within 5’, so it attacks with +13 to hit AC 30. Optimus keeps his non-existant dex bonus to AC thanks to uncanny dodge, which is irrelevant. The snake hits with 17-20 (20%) but misses 50% of the attacks due to darkness. This means Optimus takes 10% of 1d8+10 damage, or 1.45 hp. There is also a 10% change of starting a grapple, I will keep this %.
Round 1
Both have initiative +3, Optimus generously allows the snake the opportunity of attacking again. It does and causes 1.45 hp on average, and accumulates a 20% chances of grappling.
Optimus strikes back. The snake is fighting blind because of the darkness, so its AC is just 12. Optimus hits that with a 4, or 85% of the time. Doing 16.575 hp to the snake.
Round 2
The snake does 1.45 damage. Chances to grapple up to 30%.
Optimus decides to power attack his full bab. Hits with +6 (70%) and does 25.5 damage on a hit, or 17.85 average each round.
Round 3 and 4
See round 2. In round 4 the snake dies. In round 5 the snake would have managed an improved grab attempt, which due to CQF was suicide, anyway. This was another easy win.
Optimus took 5.8 hp damage, so he spends another charge from a wand of lesser vigor. (20% of failure accumulated).
Encounter 3, wraith
The wraith has +11 hide, +12 listen, +12 spot, so I am going, once again, letting it surprise Optimus.
Surprise round
The wraith charges, attacks Optimus touch AC 26 with +7, which means a 10% chances of a hit. The wraith does no damage, but if it hits it forces a DC 14 fort save or lose some Con. Optimus has a +11 fort save, which means he fails 15% of the time. This means the wraith has a 1.5% chance of draining Con this first round. It does not happen.
Round 1
The wraith goes first. He hits 5% of the time. The chance of draining con goes down to 0.75%. Adding % this means a 2.25% accumulative chance.
Optimus tries to hit the wraith and discovers it s immune to normal weapons. Awwww.
Round 3
The wraith has a whooping 3% chance to have drained Optimus some Con. Optimus mocks him mercilessly.
Optimus pulls a wand of greater magic weapon and taps his greatsword (+20% UMD failure). For the next 5 hours the sword is +1. He could have done this at the entrance of the cave, but he is utterly convinced he is invincible, so he rarely bothers.
Round 4
Wraith is at 3.75% chance. Go, ghostboy, go!
Optimus smacks the wraith with his magical sword. +9 to hit AC 15 (75%), doing 3d6+10 (20.5) damage, but missing 50% of the time due to non-corporeality means 7.68 hp damage/round.
Rounds 5-8
The wraith has a total chance of 6.75% of having landed a blow on Optimus + Optimus failed the save. Then it is destroyed. Yet another easy win for our hero.
Encounter 4, the rug of doom
The rug has no stealth abilities, but the evil DM decides to give it a +20 circumstantial bonus to hide from Optimus by just laying on the floor and not moving. So Optimus is surprised yet again!
Surprise round
The rug attacks with +9 to hit AC 30. Hits on a 20 and does 2d6+7 (14) hp on average. This means 0.7 hp/round. If it tries a grapple, it actually targets AC 26, so it improves to 20% to hit. Obviously it goes for the grapple. But it won’t work until round 2.
Round 1
Optimus has better initiative and smacks rug with +9 to hit AC 13 (85%) and does 17.42 damage. Optimus is amused by that AC
Rug fails.
Round 2
Optimus does 17.42 hp to rug.
Rug hits and tries grapple, but provokes an AoO from CQF. The attack hits 90% of the time, adding about +20 to Optimus roll, which becomes +33 against the rug +19. I’d say the rug needs 3-4 attempts before reaching the 51% chances to grapple Optimus, that takes at least 13 rounds. But even without using power attack Optimus will destroy the rug in round 5. Even if grappled, there is a decent chance Optimus will escape, since he has +13 vs. +19 in the rolls. Far better chance than the rug to beat him in the first place.
Another easy win, although this time there was a faint, very faint possibility of losing.
Encounter 5, the dragon
Optimus knows the final encounter is with a black dragon. He could have something against acid. But he is invincible, so he does not care at all.
The dragon has maxed hide, move silently, spot and listen, like most dragons do. So he surprises Optimus. Yet again. Weird, uh? Especially considering Optimus has better senses than all those casters that have tried the gauntlet, bats included.
Surprise round
The dragon blasts Optimus with acid breath of 6d4 (average 15 hp) and DC 17. Optimus has a +3 to saves, which means a 35% of taking no damage (evasion) and a 65% of taking full damage. On average Optimus takes 9.75 hp. He will breathe again 2.5 rounds later, or in round 3, then 5, then 8, then 10, etc.
Round 1
The dragon has no feats taken. I am going to give him improved initiative so he can go before Optimus. I am also giving it multi-attack so it can fight better.
The dragon charges and bites, with a +14 to hit AC 30, so 25% to hit and doing 1d8+2. On the average Optimus takes 1.625 damage.
Optimus is faintly impressed the dragon has hurt him a little and smack him with +9 to hit AC 17 (65%), so the dragon takes 13.325 damage.
Round 2
The dragon full attacks optimus with +12 bite, +10 claw/claw/wing/wing for 1d8+2, 1d6+1, 1d6+1, 1d4+1, 1d4+1. Hits 15/5/5/5/5% for an average damage of 1.775 hp/round.
Optimus strikes back with +9 to hit AC 19 (55%), so the dragon takes 11.275 damage.
Round 3
Dragon breathes again, for 9,75 hp.
Optimus does 11.275 damage.
Round 4
See round 2.
Round 5
See round 3
Round 6
See round 2
Round 7
See round 2
Round 8
See round 3. Dragon dies. An almost tough battle, but hey, it was a dragon.
Optimus takes 45.05 hp, over half his 65 hp. This requires 4 charges of lesser vigor. (+45% UMD failure, on average he could activate one more wands before one of them fails).
Expenditures:
7 charges of a wand of Lesser Vigor (105 gold)
1 charge of a wand of Scintillating Scales (45 gold)
1 charge of a wand of Greater Magic Weapon (112.5 gold)
Optimus did not even bother with invisibility or mirror image, he didn’t blast with the wands of scorching ray (although he might have needed if the dragon had space to fly and strafe). He could do this 3-4 more times before needing to return to a town for supplies. How is that for endurance?
No ToB at all. Who said that was the only thing that made non-casters equal to casters at low level? No flaws either. Just overwhelming polymorph cheese, which is within reach of anyone.
More buffs in his sleeve than any of the spellcasters posted & can fight more times.
More skills, better bab, more hp than any of the arcane casters posted thus far.
Please, let me know if I have made any mistake.
You need the initiator level in a class with access to the maneuver though. For Fire Riposte, it lists level as Swordsage 2 (level 2 maneuvers require IL 3+). You do not have sufficient swordsage initiator level to take the maneuver. If a maneuver is shared by several classes, it lists it as such (i.e. Swordsage 2, Warblade 2). Since your only weapon to deal damage to the swarm in the CR3 gauntlet was Fire Riposte, you actually never make it to the level 4 and 5 gauntlets.
Why and/or how are you increasing the amount of prerequisites? ToB lists the pre-reqs as a number of maneuvers. That is it.
And actually, burning blade deals fire damage (which I had to swap for weapon focus) so I have a second energy attack.
This might be true if Warblades had access to Desert Wind maneuvers. Your Swordsage IL is still 5/2 = 2. Not high enough for level 2 Desert Wind maneuvers. So no Fire Riposte.
Warblades have the same IL for all maneuvers that they use as Warblades. If a level 1 Warblade takes Martial Study as a feat and learns a Desert Wind maneuver, his IL is 1. At level 3, if he doesn't multiclass, his IL for that maneuver is 3. I don't think using a maneuver from an item should be any different.
If it uses fly-by attack, it dies from an AoO (using my weighted average method, which is the only one I like to use) it attempts to hit me, or from the fire riposte (if forced to use the 50% threshold method), however that would be an example of it engaging in melee (which is what the monster says it does).
Spikes, which is not melee, would kill me.
Except fly-by attack is like Spring Attack in the air, no AoOs. And you don't have fire riposte.
Why? I am not saying that I am prone or standing, personally, I feel both to be irrelevant when you are talking about a non-winged flier.
Except you are saying that you are prone, you need the +4AC to help with defend against the spikes.
Would you call a 45 degree angle a "steep slope"? I would. This means it applies.
The fly spell says it is as strenuous as walking, and that you can charge as well as attack normally.
I would call a "steep slope" and "stairs" as meaning particular topograhical features of the ground. I don't think the skill trick applies to flying movement.
So ... I don't see any problems with my tactics (except, since I learned about the stalling thing, it needs to fly-by-attack to behave as the MM says it should)
A creature that suddenly loses most of its HP to a powerful melee combatant may very well rethink its usual tactics and not blindly attempt to stay in melee.
rug room ... so, per encounter, the rug fits exactly (15x15). If the room is four times as big (30x30) my tactics work. How much bigger are you deciding the room is.
Well, the probably is the original encounter used a 5x5 rug in a 15x20 room, I would say that the entire dungeon should be scaled up now that it has several Huge inhabitants. It doesn't make sense to scale up the creatures and jam them into the old CR2 layout. The rug went up by a factor of 3, I would say the room should too, 45x60, with a 15 foot wide doorway. I'd say you have a problem.
Sudden leap is a maneuver and was listed.
I know. Your skill tricks that you have listed require Jump 5 ranks. This was not evident in your sudden leap jump calculation (build illegal/incomplete).
Unfortunately, you died vs the dragon with the posted tactics.
Polymorph spells do not increase your hps based on the new con score.
Why and/or how are you increasing the amount of prerequisites? ToB lists the pre-reqs as a number of maneuvers. That is it.
There is also an requirement of sufficient IL. But the rules at the beginning explain that, so no need to put it in every maneuver stat block.
And actually, burning blade deals fire damage (which I had to swap for weapon focus) so I have a second energy attack.
But you acquire burning blade before having any levels in warblade, you can only use it once per encounter with no recovery mechanism.
Show
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 33 - misadded 6+6.5+6.5+5.5+5.5+3.5 = 33
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 5 +1 = 6 - didn't use enough skill points
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Jump 5 +2+5-2=10 - didn't copy/paste.
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Plucky
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Martial Study: Burning Blade - replaced weapon focus as prereq for fire riposte
Class Features
Evasion
Whirling Frenzy 1/day - renamed to call it the correct thing
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Iron Heart: Steel Wind (Switched out for Emerald Razor which I did not qualify for)
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cloak (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3-1 = 3
Ref 3+2=5
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1=+10
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder.
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 33 - misadded 6+6.5+6.5+5.5+5.5+3.5 = 33
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 5 +1 = 6 - didn't use enough skill points
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Jump 5 +2+5-2=10 - didn't copy/paste.
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Plucky
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Martial Study: Burning Blade - replaced weapon focus as prereq for fire riposte
Class Features
Evasion
Whirling Frenzy 1/day - renamed to call it the correct thing
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Iron Heart: Steel Wind (Switched out for Emerald Razor which I did not qualify for)
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cloak (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3-1 = 3
Ref 3+2=5
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1=+10
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder.
There is also an requirement of sufficient IL. But the rules at the beginning explain that, so no need to put it in every maneuver stat block.
Page 44, Prerequisites.
In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, you must meet a certain set of requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know. Stances are considered maneuvers for the purposes of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver.
You can't learn a maneuver unless you gain in a level in a martial adept class, a level in a prestige class that grants maneuvers, or you take the Martial Study Feat.
Now, since Initiator Level is +1/2 per level in non-initiator classes (rogue, fighter, barbarian =4 *1/2=2) and +1 per level of initiator classes (warblade =1) -- 2+1=3 = high enough for level 2 maneuvers.
How do I not meet the prereqs? Be careful, if you say that only people with 3 levels in the swordsage class can meet it, you need to explain how the wizard in the example of the magic item can use it.
There is also an requirement of sufficient IL. But the rules at the beginning explain that, so no need to put it in every maneuver stat block.
Again, I find no reference to this anywhere. It requires IL to "learn" a maneuver. You don't learn the maneuver from the item, the item simply lets you use it. Using a magic item does not require the user to meet the CL of the ability in the item. The martial items are no different, but since, unlike spells maneuvers have built in prerequisites for use(not learning), you have to fulfill the criteria of those items.
This is not really the place for this discussion, though, and I am fine with his guy having the fire riposte ability, its no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
-AS-
Page 44, Prerequisites.
Now, since Initiator Level is +1/2 per level in non-initiator classes (rogue, fighter, barbarian =4 *1/2=2) and +1 per level of initiator classes (warblade =1) -- 2+1=3 = high enough for level 2 maneuvers.
How do I not meet the prereqs? Be careful, if you say that only people with 3 levels in the swordsage class can meet it, you need to explain how the wizard in the example of the magic item can use it.
You do not meet the pre-reqs b/c your swordsage IL is < 3. You need 6 levels in other classes to achieve swordsage IL of 3, you do not need any levels in actual swordsage at all, though they help.
Magic items are completely different, they are designed for anyone to use. The maneuver granting magic items are not, they require varying degrees of initiator classes to get the most out of them, it says so right in the flavor text.
Except fly-by attack is like Spring Attack in the air, no AoOs.
FLYBY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
Where do you see it preventing AoOs?
I would call a "steep slope" and "stairs" as meaning particular topograhical features of the ground. I don't think the skill trick applies to flying movement.
Am I moving up a steep slope? Yes -- which means I move at normal speed.
Can I charge while flying? Yes
Can a person charge with nothing slowing their speed? Yes
I am unsure where the opposition is. ESPECIALLY since this is the CharOps board.
A creature that suddenly loses most of its HP to a powerful melee combatant may very well rethink its usual tactics and not blindly attempt to stay in melee.
You posted Fly-By-Attack, that kills him identically to my posted method. It also agrees with the MonsterManual.
Well, the probably is the original encounter used a 5x5 rug in a 15x20 room, I would say that the entire dungeon should be scaled up now that it has several Huge inhabitants. It doesn't make sense to scale up the creatures and jam them into the old CR2 layout. The rug went up by a factor of 3, I would say the room should too, 45x60, with a 15 foot wide doorway. I'd say you have a problem.
I disagree. I refuse to allow you to change the layout of a room after I go through it specifically to make my character fail this event. ESPECIALLY since my character is the only one who was built before knowing these monsters, so there is no possibility of saying that I built my character on metagame knowledge.
Again, I find no reference to this anywhere. It requires IL to "learn" a maneuver. You don't learn the maneuver from the item, the item simply lets you use it. Using a magic item does not require the user to meet the CL of the ability in the item. The martial items are no different, but since, unlike spells maneuvers have built in prerequisites for use(not learning), you have to fulfill the criteria of those items.
This is not really the place for this discussion, though, and I am fine with his guy having the fire riposte ability, its no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
-AS-
By this reasoning, a level 1 fighter could take martial study (Shadow Blink) and dimension door as a swift action. This is just one example of a very high level maneuver (Swordsage 7) with no "pre-quisite" block in its maneuver description. Things get broken in a hurry if you are allowed to bypass the IL pre-requisites.
Argaud,
Unfortunately, you died vs the dragon with the posted tactics.
Polymorph spells do not increase your hps based on the new con score.
Yes, they do.
Wildshape does not, because it is now based on alternate form. But polymorph still does.
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
Page 44, Prerequisites.
Now, since Initiator Level is +1/2 per level in non-initiator classes (rogue, fighter, barbarian =4 *1/2=2) and +1 per level of initiator classes (warblade =1) -- 2+1=3 = high enough for level 2 maneuvers.
How do I not meet the prereqs? Be careful, if you say that only people with 3 levels in the swordsage class can meet it, you need to explain how the wizard in the example of the magic item can use it.
You do not meet the pre-reqs b/c your swordsage IL is < 3. You need 6 levels in other classes to achieve swordsage IL of 3, you do not need any levels in actual swordsage at all, though they help.
Magic items are completely different, they are designed for anyone to use. The maneuver granting magic items are not, they require varying degrees of initiator classes to get the most out of them, it says so right in the flavor text.
This is my last post on the subject.
Read what I wrote and you quoted -- it spells out what my initiator level is (3) per ToB -- this is from page 39 of the book.
I really don't know how else to say this, so this is my last post on the subject.
I disagree. I refuse to allow you to change the layout of a room after I go through it specifically to make my character fail this event. ESPECIALLY since my character is the only one who was built before knowing these monsters, so there is no possibility of saying that I built my character on metagame knowledge.
You think it makes sense to cram huge monsters into tiny spaces where they cannot effectively maneuver? I am sorry, but now it is you who is meta-gaming.
This is my last post on the subject.
Read what I wrote and you quoted -- it spells out what my initiator level is (3) per ToB -- this is from page 39 of the book.
I really don't know how else to say this, so this is my last post on the subject.
You don't seem to understand that initiator level is tracked separately for the 3 initiator classes. Your Warblade IL =/= Your Swordsage IL =/= Your Crusader IL. There is no such thing as generic initiator level. In the case of desert wind maneuvers, your Swordsage IL is the one that matters. We haven't even started on the subject of adding to maneuvers known v. maneuvers readied. I don't think you can even use Fire Riposte, but if you could, it would be added to your pool of maneuvers known, meaning it competes for the 3 slots with emerald razor, sudden leap, and rabid wolf strike.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
found here:
Rules of the Game 05/02/2006,Polymorphing Revisited (Part One)
:D
You don't seem to understand that initiator level is tracked separately for the 3 initiator classes. Your Warblade IL =/= Your Swordsage IL =/= Your Crusader IL. There is no such thing as generic initiator level. In the case of desert wind maneuvers, your Swordsage IL is the one that matters. We haven't even started on the subject of adding to maneuvers known v. maneuvers readied. I don't think you can even use Fire Riposte, but if you could, it would be added to your pool of maneuvers known, meaning it competes for the 3 slots with emerald razor, sudden leap, and rabid wolf strike.
Martial Study adds it to your maneuvers known, just because warblades don't automatically get Desert Wind maneuvers doesn't mean you can't add a desert wind maneuver to your warblade maneuvers known via martial study(which is exactly what happens per the text of the feat).
Again, off topic and irrelevant. Just assume that people can do all the things they claim, its no big deal as long as they aren't totally making things up. I would rather the noncaster have every possible advantage in this.
-AS-
L'Avantgarde Noire
You don't seem to understand that initiator level is tracked separately for the 3 initiator classes. Your Warblade IL =/= Your Swordsage IL =/= Your Crusader IL. There is no such thing as generic initiator level. In the case of desert wind maneuvers, your Swordsage IL is the one that matters. We haven't even started on the subject of adding to maneuvers known v. maneuvers readied. I don't think you can even use Fire Riposte, but if you could, it would be added to your pool of maneuvers known, meaning it competes for the 3 slots with emerald razor, sudden leap, and rabid wolf strike.
It does not matter. A warblade can add any non-warblade maneuver to his arsenal of maneuvers with a feat, and it will not only have an IL equal to the warblade IL, but it will behave as it was a warblade maneuver in what recovery refers.
Exactly the same happens with an item granting a maneuver.
This is a really interesting discussion, and i like that it hasn't devolved into some kind of trolling yet.
However, there's one thing about this thing that reeks, and it's the initial rules.
Any WOTC book can be used ...
Elite Array
No Gish (or duskblades), this is to compare caster to noncaster
All base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters)
All PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL
No LA races
No aging characters
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
Now, why elite array? why not, say 28 point buy? Elite Ray is very unoptimal, especially for casters, who only has to focus on a single stat or two, and noone would use the Elite Array in real play.
I can understand why you won't allow gishes, but see the tactics the caster-side is using? Most of it is gish-tactics. In a 20 level build 1 level of fighter isn't much, but i guess i can see where you're coming from at low levels. No diluting the casters with noncaster.
Same for PRC and LA-races.
Why, oh why no aging characters? It is perfectly legal by the books, and its not overly broken of anything. Oh yeah, it favors casters...
So, you basically made up some rules so that this doesn't reflect real play, and therefore this cannot to judge real play.
actually notice:
found here:
Rules of the Game 05/02/2006,Polymorphing Revisited (Part One)
:D
Yes, but that article is about alternate form. Not polymorph, notice:
"Most effects and class features that once referenced the polymorph spell now refer to the alternate form special quality instead."
Which includes wildshape.
However,
"The polymorph spell itself hasn't changed at all; see the announcement for details. What has changed is the polymorph spell's role as the basis for most forms of shapeshifting in the game."
So (unfortunately) polymorph still increases hp. Not that fixing that would have fixed the spell, it would be only slightly less broken.
(I am not actually sure if you were arguing that polymorph now works like alternate form, mind you, just clarifying they are not the same effect).
It does not matter. A warblade can add any non-warblade maneuver to his arsenal of maneuvers with a feat, and it will not only have an IL equal to the warblade IL, but it will behave as it was a warblade maneuver in what recovery refers.
Exactly the same happens with an item granting a maneuver.
I see two problems with this:
1)A warblade may not add "any non-warblade maneuver" with a feat, he can only add a maneuver for which he can meet the pre-requisites. It says so right in the description of martial study. He must have sufficient IL and count of other maneuvers known to select a particular maneuver.
2)There is no real rules text indicating that "exactly the same happens with an item granting a maneuver", no where in the item description does it say that it exactly mimics the feat. Although if it does, then it is added to maneuvers known, and Meyer_Williams character must choose 3 among emerald razor, sudden leap, rabid wolf strike, and fire riposte. But that doesn't matter because he cannot pick fire riposte through the cloak anyway.
Good point -- I will repost the corrected character, and update post 1 to show the location of each.
Ok. I'll critique that new one then.
In one (shocking grasp) you have a melee touch attack that deals damage.
In the other (fire riposte) you have a melee touch attack that deals damage.
Grapple also deals damage, so I guess that little tactic works too?
But yes, it should be interesting to see what response you get from cust serv
I'd like us to agree on the question first, k?
"If I have a character with Punishing Stance, and initiate the counter Fire Riposte, do I get to add the damage from Punishing Stance to the Fire Riposte damage? It is a melee touch attack, and Punishing Stance is for melee attacks."
However, some of us used weighted averages as we thought (think) that they are more fair, especially since it is easily possible to include crititical hits in the form of slightly more damage. Using the thresholds it will be almost impossible to ever crit, even with extended crit range.
There is a formula for using crits with the threshold as well. Of course I don't remember it.
If, before these threads, casters > melee (all levels), and currently, casters = melee (low levels only) ... I think progress is being made.
And for those people, that's great. I've said all along you can replace the fighting-man with a cleric or druid in a party and be just fine at low levels, and better off as the levels increase. That sounds like 'equal at low levels' to me.
What is multi-quote?
At the bottom of each post is a little icon with a '+' symbol in it. If you click that icon on several posts, then hit quote, every post you chose with that icon will be quoted.
At least that's supposed to be how it works. And did work that way for me for many months now. It's only in the last two weeks that it stopped working for me. I just figured you, what with posting replies one after the other in many thread, had problems with it. Now I'm seeing first-hand that the problem may be more wide-spread. Apparently it was working too well, so somebody went and 'fixed' it.
However, there's one thing about this thing that reeks, and it's the initial rules.
Now, why elite array? why not, say 28 point buy? Elite Ray is very unoptimal, especially for casters, who only has to focus on a single stat or two, and noone would use the Elite Array in real play.
I can understand why you won't allow gishes, but see the tactics the caster-side is using? Most of it is gish-tactics. In a 20 level build 1 level of fighter isn't much, but i guess i can see where you're coming from at low levels. No diluting the casters with noncaster.
Same for PRC and LA-races.
Why, oh why no aging characters? It is perfectly legal by the books, and its not overly broken of anything. Oh yeah, it favors casters...
So, you basically made up some rules so that this doesn't reflect real play, and therefore this cannot to judge real play.
Elite array is used as that is the way the game was designed (from what I have been told numerous times).
You might not believe it, but there are a ton of DMs out there who will not allow aging. Additionally, disallowing something that favors casters is not the same thing as penalizing casters.
And no, this is not reflective of real play. Very few DMs ask their PCs to solo 5 creatures of their CR in one session.
Apparently it was working too well, so somebody went and 'fixed' it.
Maybe it received some unfavorable errata.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I can understand why you won't allow gishes, but see the tactics the caster-side is using? Most of it is gish-tactics. In a 20 level build 1 level of fighter isn't much, but i guess i can see where you're coming from at low levels. No diluting the casters with noncaster.
Same for PRC and LA-races.
Why, oh why no aging characters? It is perfectly legal by the books, and its not overly broken of anything. Oh yeah, it favors casters...
I will let Meyer answer most of this, but I want to mention allowing LA+ races would favor non-casters, which can easily afford a LA+1 or +2 to pick superb choices as race/template (goliath, half-giant, etc) with no worries about keeping CL up. Not all of Meyer's rules benefit non-casters.
The problem is exaggeration. Instead of simply making a statement, people drive the point home to ridiculous heights.
Yeah, and it's not just this argument that falls into that field.
"Direct damage spells are useless" is another example. Less useful? I could see that claim, but useless is finite and absolute.
Elite array is used as that is the way the game was designed (from what I have been told numerous times).
You might not believe it, but there are a ton of DMs out there who will not allow aging. Additionally, disallowing something that favors casters is not the same thing as penalizing casters.
And no, this is not reflective of real play. Very few DMs ask their PCs to solo 5 creatures of their CR in one session.
A "ton of DMs" will not allow the PCs to use flaws, feat rogue, or any Unearthed Arcana stuff, much less allow the PCs to be Orcs. This restriction does seem a little bit one-sided.
Grapple also deals damage, so I guess that little tactic works too?
I doubt it. Grapple does not deal damage on the initial attack roll. And when rolling damage with grapple characters do a compared grapple check, not an attack roll.
I think this is why sneak attack does not add to grapple check damage rolls.
Grapple also deals damage, so I guess that little tactic works too?
The grapple attempt (touch attack) does not deal damage. Depending on the person/feats/abilities ... winning a grapple deals damage (later in the combat step).
I'd like us to agree on the question first, k?
"If I have a character with Punishing Stance, and initiate the counter Fire Riposte, do I get to add the damage from Punishing Stance to the Fire Riposte damage? It is a melee touch attack, and Punishing Stance is for melee attacks."
Looks terrific. Exactly what we are discussing.
At the bottom of each post is a little icon with a '+' symbol in it. If you click that icon on several posts, then hit quote, every post you chose with that icon will be quoted.
At least that's supposed to be how it works. And did work that way for me for many months now. It's only in the last two weeks that it stopped working for me. I just figured you, what with posting replies one after the other in many thread, had problems with it. Now I'm seeing first-hand that the problem may be more wide-spread. Apparently it was working too well, so somebody went and 'fixed' it.
Thanks,
Usually I don't do that as some people get confused reading things from multiple posters all at once (eyes glaze over who posted what). It is just simpler this way.
Warblades have the same IL for all maneuvers that they use as Warblades. If a level 1 Warblade takes Martial Study as a feat and learns a Desert Wind maneuver, his IL is 1. At level 3, if he doesn't multiclass, his IL for that maneuver is 3. I don't think using a maneuver from an item should be any different.
100% correct. All it takes is reading the fracking manual. In this case, the feat.
Elite array is used as that is the way the game was designed (from what I have been told numerous times).
You might not believe it, but there are a ton of DMs out there who will not allow aging. Additionally, disallowing something that favors casters is not the same thing as penalizing casters.
And no, this is not reflective of real play. Very few DMs ask their PCs to solo 5 creatures of their CR in one session.
No, the game was designed by a 4d6 drop lowest system. It's right there in the PHB. Seeing as that is somewhat inconvenient, why not use the option described in the DMG? Sure beats using something meant for monsters and npcs.
Sure i believe that many DM's don't allow aging. That's called houserules, and therefore it shouldn't be the basis of wether casters are overpowered or not.
And i know this isn't real play, but what we're deriving from this should be true in real play.
I have finalized my enchanter build, here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14462595&postcount=599
Now, there are problems with it, which I have gone over. If anyone finds anything else, feel free to comment. Meyer, have a look if you want.
I don't know whether or not you can say it successfully completed the challenge; I guess it depends on what metric you're using.
The guy can be a team player (he has the spells for it), so thats something to consider in his favor, I guess.
I don't think I used any horribly broken spells or rules for the character (something I wanted to avoid).
No, the game was designed by a 4d6 drop lowest system. It's right there in the PHB. Seeing as that is somewhat inconvenient, why not use the option described in the DMG? Sure beats using something meant for monsters and npcs.
Sure i believe that many DM's don't allow aging. That's called houserules, and therefore it shouldn't be the basis of wether casters are overpowered or not.
And i know this isn't real play, but what we're deriving from this should be true in real play.
I have to agree with this. Whats in the PHB is "the rules." Since we can't really do rolling for this little task, point buy is what should be used.
A "ton of DMs" will not allow the PCs to use flaws, feat rogue, or any Unearthed Arcana stuff, much less allow the PCs to be Orcs. This restriction does seem a little bit one-sided.
True, those same DMs that disallow a core LA+0 race like orcs might not allow forgotten realms otherworldly feats (which powered the dwarven ancestor cheese -- and before any responds to this, three arcane casters chose this same combination, therefore it has something going for it).
For flaws, true, but both casters and noncasters benefitted quite well (nod to the DMM cleric with 19 turn attempts) -- which implies that it is balances.
Feat Rogue can be found in the SRD (or is it D20 site? -- either way, it is easily accessible without spending $$$)
Level 5 Melee:
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 13
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 33 - misadded 6+6.5+6.5+5.5+5.5+3.5 = 33
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1
Skills:
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -2(armor) +2(Synergy) = +10
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -2 (armor) = 5
Spot 4 -1 = 3
Listen 4 -1 = 3
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Concentration 2 +1 = 3
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Jump 5 +2+5-2=10 - didn't copy/paste.
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Too many skill points spent. You forgot to include the 6 for the skill tricks.
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Martial Study: Burning Blade - replaced weapon focus as prereq for fire riposte
Class Features
Evasion
Slashing Rage 1/day
This is the Whirling Rage benefit from UA that I linked to earlier, right?
Pounce
Manuevers Known/Readied
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
Equipment:
Chain Shirt
Spiked Chain +1
Bracers of Quick Strike
Boots of the Mountain King
Belt of Healing
Potion of Flying
Desert Wind Cloak (Fire Riposte)
3 Potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Unbuffed
Fort 6+1-3 = 4
Ref 3+2-1=4
Will 0-1+1 =0
Init: 0+4+2+2 = +8
To hit: 4+5+1+1=+11
BAB +4, Str +5, Magic Weapon +1 = +10
Looks like you still have weapon focus in there.
And where does the extra +2 Initiative come from?
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder.
I'll do the level 10 later. I've got some comments on your level 5 battle...
True, those same DMs that disallow a core LA+0 race like orcs might not allow forgotten realms otherworldly feats (which powered the dwarven ancestor cheese -- and before any responds to this, three arcane casters chose this same combination, therefore it has something going for it).
For flaws, true, but both casters and noncasters benefitted quite well (nod to the DMM cleric with 19 turn attempts) -- which implies that it is balances.
Feat Rogue can be found in the SRD (or is it D20 site? -- either way, it is easily accessible without spending $$$)
Most DMs would allow aging rules (in the PHB) before things on the SRD (not everyone knows about it) or in Unearthed Arcana.
Not trying to argue, just pointing out.
100% correct. All it takes is reading the fracking manual. In this case, the feat.
So is this build legal :
Crusader 1 / Fighter 1
Pick any 3 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers with Crusader 1 (you get 5 maneuvers known).
Fighter 1 Bonus Feat : Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality).
Near unlimited Heal effects at level 2?
I think the answer should be : "No, you can't do that, you don't have Crusader IL = 17."
My initiative is 5 higher than its initiative, granting me the win.
[color=red]You won first initiative by 8:2 and this one by 8:3. I guess you’re going with ‘as long as I have high initiative, I can’t possibly lose), right?
The manticore will average initiative to 12, which you have to beat with a +8. That means you need a 4+, so 85% is a success against the manticore. Against the snake you need to beat 13 with your +8. That means you need a 5+ (80% + 85% = 165%) winning initiative v. the snake. Do this for all characters to determine when they win and when they lose. Your +8 will win most initiatives, just like in game, but it might lose once in awhile, just like in game. A character coming in with a +2 initiative will be hard pressed to win initiative as much as your orc.
In addition, I’d say it’s probably not unreasonable to assume a 150 ft. trek between fights (that’s 5 rounds at 30 ft. move, so 3 rounds when flying (rounded up). That’s what I’m going to go with to track durations, but if you feel they should be closer, how much closer?
As of right now, it’s been X rounds since drinking the potion. (3 for manticore fight, ~12 for vigor healing (belt happens on last round of vigor healing), +3 for movement.
Fly duration: 32/50 remaining. [/color]
I am unsure if I am supposed to be tracking percentages across fights or not. So lets track it anway (this gives me a disadvantage as my last attack always hits, which reduces the chance for my next hit)[color=red] I dunno. I’m going to reset it for this reply because of the issues brought up concerning the first fight. That allows critique without knowing how changes might affect the final percentage, and thus the first percentage in this fight.[/color]
Round 1:
I activate Rabid Strike Wolf, burning blade, Full Power Attack. I hit 95% of the time (5 (str) +4 (bab) +1 (weapon) +4 (strike) +2 (it cannot see me) -4(power attack)) = +12 vs AC 13. I deal 2d4+7(str)+2d6(strike)+1d6+3(blade)+1(magic)+8 (power attack)= 5+7+7+6.5+1+8 = 34.5 damage.
I move back 10 feet, since it cannot see me, this does not provoke.
It cannot see me, but we will assume that it knows what square I am in (this is not reasonable and completely assists the monster. Without this, I auto-kill it).
It hits me for 14.5 damage, triggering Fire Riposte, which, although it has a 95% (total 190%) chance to hit, will not fail [color=red]dealing 14 damage[/color]. It gets a free grapple attempt, which provokes my CQF feat (80% = [color=red]270% total[/color]). I deal 2d4 +7 +1 +1d6 +1d6+3 = 5+7+1+3.5+6.5 +8= 31 points of damage, killing it.[color=red]Taking out Burning Brand’s 6.5 damage, this instead deals 24.5 damage, combined with fire riposte kills it.[/color]
End of Round 1: Me: 11, It: dead
Round 2:
I wait 6 rounds to be healed to 1/2, then I use a charge from my belt. I am now at 26 hps.
[color=red]That takes 6 rounds, healing belt occurs on last round of vigor benefits
Fly duration: 25/50 remaining[/color]
Resources used:
One potion of flight and 2 charges from belt of healing.
Using the same tactics as the first attempt, I dealt more damage and took 0.1 hps less damage.
Wraith
I only have a +1 higher init bonus, so lets let it go first.
[color=red]You’re at 165% so far. Wraith has +7 v. your +8, so you need to roll a 9+. That means the running total is now at 205%, so it wins anyway.[/color]
It attacks me [color=red]+5 v. AC 10, 80%, a hit for[/color] 2.5 damage, plus a DC 14 fort save (+4, 55% chance of making it, so I succeed).
[color=red]You have combat reflexes. Does that allow you to use immediate actions such as Fire Riposte here? If yes and you didn’t, that’s meta-gamey. If no, then that’s cool. (I’m AFB and cannot access the net at work.)[/color]
My turn, I full attack/power attack it, using my bracers of quick strike. This gives me two attacks.
First hit: [color=red] +4 BAB, +5 Str, +1 magic -4 power attack = +6[/color] v. AC 15 = 60% (hit) 50% miss chance, hit. I deal 2d4+7+1+1d6+8 = 5.5+7+1+3.5+8 = 25
Second hit: 60% ([color=red]120%[/color] chance, miss)
End of Round 1: Me: [color=red]26 – 2.5 = 23.5[/color], It: 7
Round 2:
It attacks me again +5 v. AC 10 = 210% a hit, [/b][/color]dealing 2.5 damage, plus a DC14 fort save (55% chance of making it, total success chance 110%, so I fail)[color=red]the wraith now has 12 hit points from the Con drain. My hit points = 21 minus Con drain of 2.5 down to 10.5 = 17 hit points currently (max is 28). My Fort save drops to +3 now; Concentration checks down to +2.[/color]
My Fire Riposte activates [color=red]melee touch attack +4 BAB, +5 Str -2 stance v. AC 15 hits on 8+ (65%: total 185%, a hit). (It doesn’t tell you to use your weapon, no magic, but it is a supernatural effect, so it might affect an incorporeal creature.) Incorporeal miss chance 50% (total 100%), so a miss.
I full power attack it using Rabid Wolf Strike: +10 v. AC 15 = 70% (265%); incorporeal chance is at 150%, so a hit for 2d4+7+1+1d6+8 = 24.5, killing it.[/color]
My new max hps are [color=red]28[/color], not 33.
I activate my belt of healing. My hps are now [color=red] 28.
Fly duration: 20/50 remaining.[/color]
Huge Rug
[color=red]This one is a little weird. It doesn’t have improved grapple for some reason, so it doesn’t get to deal damage on a round it attempts to grapple. In addition, the grapple attempt provokes even if a character doesn’t have Close Quarters Fighting. In my opinion, this makes Meyer’s listed fight against it entirely irrelevant, as a simple combat reflexes AoO defeats the grapple attempt.
Because of this, it’s really better off just attacking. But, until (unless) an agreement is reached, I’ll stop here on the critique/correction of Meyer’s battle.
(And do note that at least one error he made that was corrected is in his favor; hit points during/after the wraith fight. It’s not all negative.
[/color]In this thread which was a summary of Polymorph changes, it said that on 2/17/06 it was stated that hit points don't change with Con, and there was subsequent discussion about it. I think this was in the 2/23/06 FAQ, but I don't see it in the current one.
Edit: Yeah... looks like they took it down. A GIS of wizards.com gives the following dead link:
Official D&D Errata -- PolymorphOfficial D&D Errata -- Polymorph. ... Official D&D Errata -- Polymorph. If this page does not automatically redirect to the proper page click here. ...
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060216a - 53k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
WTF
So is this build legal :
Crusader 1 / Fighter 1
Pick any 3 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers with Crusader 1 (you get 5 maneuvers known).
Fighter 1 Bonus Feat : Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality).
Near unlimited Heal effects at level 2?
I think the answer should be : "No, you can't do that, you don't have Crusader IL = 17."
Read the fracking feat. Now read the part about needing to have an initiator level of X before picking a maneuver. Quote the text exactly as it appears about how that character cannot initiate a maneuver.
It specifically says that if you have an initiator class, your initiator level for the maneuver chosen with Martial Study is the same as your initiator level with that class.
In Meyer's case, he has an initiator level 3 for warblade. What that means is the feat counts his initiator level as 3 for purposes of what maneuver he may choose with the feat. He chose Burning Brand.
Later, after that, sometime past taking the feat, he picks up a magic item that allows him to initiate a maneuver called Fire Riposte. Even if the magic item required he have an initiator level of 3 to activate Fire Riposte... well, it doesn't.
I've been picking apart Meyers entrant, and this is one area where he's safe.
I doubt it. Grapple does not deal damage on the initial attack roll. And when rolling damage with grapple characters do a compared grapple check, not an attack roll.
I think this is why sneak attack does not add to grapple check damage rolls.
The reason I chose grapple is the specific way that melee touch attack was linked to melee attack in one of the initial replies to this critique.
The fact that 'deals damage' came up later is just an amendment to the argument that a melee touch attack is a melee attack.
I'd bet a
that he can't add Punishing Stance to the Fire Riposte damage. Any takers?Too many skill points spent. You forgot to include the 6 for the skill tricks.
Level 1: Rogue 8 skill points:
4 each in tumble, balance, spot, listen, jump, UMD, 1 in Intimidate (3 below where I should be (oops)
Level 2: Barbarian 4 skill points
1 in jump, intimidate -- 2 in balance (CC)
Level 3: Fighter 2 skill points
Nimble Charge (2)
Level 4: Rogue 8 skill points
tumble +3
UMD +3
Up The Hill (2)
Level 5: Warblade 4 skill points
Tumble 1
Concentrate 1
Nimble Stand (2)
So -- it actually looks like i used three points too few, thanks. Lets bump up my concentration by 3.
This is the Whirling Rage benefit from UA that I linked to earlier, right?
Yes, Dunno why I called it slashing rage
BAB +4, Str +5, Magic Weapon +1 = +10
Looks like you still have weapon focus in there.
Good catch, but since I do not list that in the fight, it shouldn't matter. But I will correct.
And where does the extra +2 Initiative come from?
The trait agressive.
DuHr. Read the fracking feat. Now read the part about needing to have an initiator level of X before picking a maneuver. Quote the text exactly as it appears about how that character cannot initiate a maneuver.
It specifically says that if you have an initiator class, your initiator level for the maneuver chosen with Martial Study is the same as your initiator level with that class.
In Meyer's case, he has an initiator level 3 for warblade. What that means is the feat counts his initiator level as 3 for purposes of what maneuver he may choose with the feat. He chose Burning Brand.
Later, after that, sometime past taking the feat, he picks up a magic item that allows him to initiate a maneuver called Fire Riposte. Even if the magic item required he have an initiator level of 3 to activate Fire Riposte... well, it doesn't.
I've been picking apart Meyers entrant, and this is one area where he's safe.
I don't see the difference here. To add Fire Riposte to his maneuvers known with the cloak or the martial study feat, he has to meet two requirements : Swordsage IL 3+ and one desert wind maneuver. Anything else opens up the cheese I talked about above. I am not sure you read all the previous posts Otto, some people are advocating that the "pre-requisites" for a maneuver do not even include the relevant IL, only having the maneuver count.
When he selects Martial Study (Burning Blade) I assume he has Swordsage IL = 1 already, meaning he selects it at ECL 2+ (cannot take it at first level), this is possible because he has a number of bonus feats after first level so I assume he could order them correctly.
Edit to add : as soon as he gains one more level he will have Swordsage IL = 3 and can start using the cloak to give himself Fire Riposte, for now, he could pick a level 1 desert wind maneuver. It still gets added to his maneuvers known as a warblade, and competes for the readied slots with his other maneuvers. So he will need to dump emerald razor, sudden leap, or rabid wolf strike if he wants to ready it for use.
Hi Meyer
This is a really interesting discussion, and i like that it hasn't devolved into some kind of trolling yet.
However, there's one thing about this thing that reeks, and it's the initial rules.
Now, why elite array? why not, say 28 point buy? Elite Ray is very unoptimal, especially for casters, who only has to focus on a single stat or two, and noone would use the Elite Array in real play.
I can understand why you won't allow gishes, but see the tactics the caster-side is using? Most of it is gish-tactics. In a 20 level build 1 level of fighter isn't much, but i guess i can see where you're coming from at low levels. No diluting the casters with noncaster.
Same for PRC and LA-races.
Why, oh why no aging characters? It is perfectly legal by the books, and its not overly broken of anything. Oh yeah, it favors casters...
So, you basically made up some rules so that this doesn't reflect real play, and therefore this cannot to judge real play.
You are correct. The Elite array is non-optimal. You must make compromises. This is part of the function of the elite array.
I've been putting elite array sword-and-board fighters using core only into "fighters can't..." threads for a long time. They are a tough challenge to make work, but once you understand what you are doing, they can do more than you think.
Right now, I'm working on such a vanilla 5th level fighter for this challenge. I'm not too far in yet. Interestingly, he outdamages the manticore and the combat takes 9 rounds WITH the manticore giving him the ranged smackdown. I'm sure with a little more cranking that I can work out an optimal path for him to actually succeed. The trick is to do it on a budget with a sub-optimal character.
ShowIt cannot see me, as I have no light source, but we will assume that I cannot surprised it.
My initiative is 5 higher than its initiative, granting me the win.
[color=red]You won first initiative by 8:2 and this one by 8:3. I guess you’re going with ‘as long as I have high initiative, I can’t possibly lose), right?
The manticore will average initiative to 12, which you have to beat with a +8. That means you need a 4+, so 85% is a success against the manticore. Against the snake you need to beat 13 with your +8. That means you need a 5+ (80% + 85% = 165%) winning initiative v. the snake. Do this for all characters to determine when they win and when they lose. Your +8 will win most initiatives, just like in game, but it might lose once in awhile, just like in game. A character coming in with a +2 initiative will be hard pressed to win initiative as much as your orc.
In addition, I’d say it’s probably not unreasonable to assume a 150 ft. trek between fights (that’s 5 rounds at 30 ft. move, so 3 rounds when flying (rounded up). That’s what I’m going to go with to track durations, but if you feel they should be closer, how much closer?
As of right now, it’s been X rounds since drinking the potion. (3 for manticore fight, ~12 for vigor healing (belt happens on last round of vigor healing), +3 for movement.
Fly duration: 32/50 remaining. [/color]
I am unsure if I am supposed to be tracking percentages across fights or not. So lets track it anway (this gives me a disadvantage as my last attack always hits, which reduces the chance for my next hit)[color=red] I dunno. I’m going to reset it for this reply because of the issues brought up concerning the first fight. That allows critique without knowing how changes might affect the final percentage, and thus the first percentage in this fight.[/color]
Round 1:
I activate Rabid Strike Wolf, burning blade, Full Power Attack. I hit 95% of the time (5 (str) +4 (bab) +1 (weapon) +4 (strike) +2 (it cannot see me) -4(power attack)) = +12 vs AC 13. I deal 2d4+7(str)+2d6(strike)+1d6+3(blade)+1(magic)+8 (power attack)= 5+7+7+6.5+1+8 = 34.5 damage.
I move back 10 feet, since it cannot see me, this does not provoke.
It cannot see me, but we will assume that it knows what square I am in (this is not reasonable and completely assists the monster. Without this, I auto-kill it).
It hits me for 14.5 damage, triggering Fire Riposte, which, although it has a 95% (total 190%) chance to hit, will not fail [color=red]dealing 14 damage[/color]. It gets a free grapple attempt, which provokes my CQF feat (80% = [color=red]270% total[/color]). I deal 2d4 +7 +1 +1d6 +1d6+3 = 5+7+1+3.5+6.5 +8= 31 points of damage, killing it.[color=red]Taking out Burning Brand’s 6.5 damage, this instead deals 24.5 damage, combined with fire riposte kills it.[/color]
End of Round 1: Me: 11, It: dead
Round 2:
I wait 6 rounds to be healed to 1/2, then I use a charge from my belt. I am now at 26 hps.
[color=red]That takes 6 rounds, healing belt occurs on last round of vigor benefits
Fly duration: 25/50 remaining[/color]
Resources used:
One potion of flight and 2 charges from belt of healing.
Using the same tactics as the first attempt, I dealt more damage and took 0.1 hps less damage.
Wraith
I only have a +1 higher init bonus, so lets let it go first.
[color=red]You’re at 165% so far. Wraith has +7 v. your +8, so you need to roll a 9+. That means the running total is now at 205%, so it wins anyway.[/color]
It attacks me [color=red]+5 v. AC 10, 80%, a hit for[/color] 2.5 damage, plus a DC 14 fort save (+4, 55% chance of making it, so I succeed).
[color=red]You have combat reflexes. Does that allow you to use immediate actions such as Fire Riposte here? If yes and you didn’t, that’s meta-gamey. If no, then that’s cool. (I’m AFB and cannot access the net at work.)[/color]
My turn, I full attack/power attack it, using my bracers of quick strike. This gives me two attacks.
First hit: [color=red] +4 BAB, +5 Str, +1 magic -4 power attack = +6[/color] v. AC 15 = 60% (hit) 50% miss chance, hit. I deal 2d4+7+1+1d6+8 = 5.5+7+1+3.5+8 = 25
Second hit: 60% ([color=red]120%[/color] chance, miss)
End of Round 1: Me: [color=red]26 – 2.5 = 23.5[/color], It: 7
Round 2:
It attacks me again +5 v. AC 10 = 210% a hit, [/b][/color]dealing 2.5 damage, plus a DC14 fort save (55% chance of making it, total success chance 110%, so I fail)[color=red]the wraith now has 12 hit points from the Con drain. My hit points = 21 minus Con drain of 2.5 down to 10.5 = 17 hit points currently (max is 28). My Fort save drops to +3 now; Concentration checks down to +2.[/color]
My Fire Riposte activates [color=red]melee touch attack +4 BAB, +5 Str -2 stance v. AC 15 hits on 8+ (65%: total 185%, a hit). (It doesn’t tell you to use your weapon, no magic, but it is a supernatural effect, so it might affect an incorporeal creature.) Incorporeal miss chance 50% (total 100%), so a miss.
I full power attack it using Rabid Wolf Strike: +10 v. AC 15 = 70% (265%); incorporeal chance is at 150%, so a hit for 2d4+7+1+1d6+8 = 24.5, killing it.[/color]
My new max hps are [color=red]28[/color], not 33.
I activate my belt of healing. My hps are now [color=red] 28.
Fly duration: 20/50 remaining.[/color]
Huge Rug
[color=red]This one is a little weird. It doesn’t have improved grapple for some reason, so it doesn’t get to deal damage on a round it attempts to grapple. In addition, the grapple attempt provokes even if a character doesn’t have Close Quarters Fighting. In my opinion, this makes Meyer’s listed fight against it entirely irrelevant, as a simple combat reflexes AoO defeats the grapple attempt.
Because of this, it’s really better off just attacking. But, until (unless) an agreement is reached, I’ll stop here on the critique/correction of Meyer’s battle.
(And do note that at least one error he made that was corrected is in his favor; hit points during/after the wraith fight. It’s not all negative.
Feel free to post my character on the front page and give any critiques you want. He's done (took forever to type all of that).
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14462595#post14462595
Just want to make sure he doesn't get lost on the flood of posts on this thread ....
Also phaedrus updated his build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14459763&postcount=541). Not sure if the updated build is on the front page.
Right now, I'm working on such a vanilla 5th level fighter for this challenge. I'm not too far in yet. Interestingly, he outdamages the manticore and the combat takes 9 rounds WITH the manticore giving him the ranged smackdown. I'm sure with a little more cranking that I can work out an optimal path for him to actually succeed. The trick is to do it on a budget with a sub-optimal character.
Just be careful to not metagame
The premise of the game is to complete adventures. So if it can be shown that commoners can do this, I fail to see why we would conclude anything differently than with a PC class. A lot of power comes from wealth in 3.5. That's simply the nature of the beast. But saying that a commoner can do it too doesn't debunk the intent of this thread. It simply adds another contender to the ring.
Forgive me, I was being unclear.
Posting an "adventure" and seeing if it can be completed doesn't accurately measure or predict the relative under or over poweredness of a caster or non-caster. The fact that it's limited to a specific part of the game (combat only) then further shifts the discussion away from total contribution to only the combat sections.
I am still baffled by what the OP would considered overpowered in regards to the adventure presented. Using no resources? One shotting everything? Taking no hits? A fundamental breakdown of the rules?
I don't see the difference here. To add Fire Riposte to his maneuvers known with the cloak or the martial study feat, he has to meet two requirements : Swordsage IL 3+ and one desert wind maneuver. Anything else opens up the cheese I talked about above. I am not sure you read all the previous posts Otto, some people are advocating that the "pre-requisites" for a maneuver do not even include the relevant IL, only having the maneuver count.
When he selects Martial Study (Burning Blade) I assume he has Swordsage IL = 1 already, meaning he selects it at ECL 2+ (cannot take it at first level), this is possible because he has a number of bonus feats after first level so I assume he could order them correctly.
Edit to add : as soon as he gains one more level he will have Swordsage IL = 3 and can start using the cloak to give himself Fire Riposte, for now, he could pick a level 1 desert wind maneuver. It still gets added to his maneuvers known as a warblade, and competes for the readied slots with his other maneuvers. So he will need to dump emerald razor, sudden leap, or rabid wolf strike if he wants to ready it for use.
I think where you're getting tripped up is assuming he needs to have an IL from a specific class in order to learn a manuever with the feat. If he were learning Fire Riposte with a Swordsage level and his Swordsage IL wasn't 3, then yes, it would be illegal. But Martial Study doesn't care what discipline the manuever comes from, only that one of your classes has an IL high enough. So he's fine because he has a Warblade IL of 3. Using your earlier example, a Crusader 1/Fighter 1 couldn't take Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality) because his IL isn't high enough, but a Warblade 17/Crusader 1 who met the maneuver count prerequisite could take that Martial Study feat and add Strike of Righteous Vitality to his Warblade list because his Warblade IL is 17.
I am still baffled by what the OP would considered overpowered in regards to the adventure presented. Using no resources? One shotting everything? Taking no hits? A fundamental breakdown of the rules?
Agreed.
I think where you're getting tripped up is assuming he needs to have an IL from a specific class in order to learn a manuever with the feat. If he were learning Fire Riposte with a Swordsage level and his Swordsage IL wasn't 3, then yes, it would be illegal. But Martial Study doesn't care what discipline the manuever comes from, only that one of your classes has an IL high enough. So he's fine because he has a Warblade IL of 3. Using your earlier example, a Crusader 1/Fighter 1 couldn't take Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality) because his IL isn't high enough, but a Warblade 17/Crusader 1 who met the maneuver count prerequisite could take that Martial Study feat and add Strike of Righteous Vitality to his Warblade list because his Warblade IL is 17.
Yes this is exactly where I am getting "tripped up", because I think it is true.
The feat specifically says : select any maneuver from the chosen discipline FOR WHICH YOU MEET THE PREREQUISITE.
That means 2 things : 1) Having a sufficiently high initiator level in a class with access to that discipline and 2) having 0 or more maneuvers already known from that discipline.
Consider a Crusader 2 / Warblade 10 named Bob.
Imagine that Bob took all White Raven maneuvers with his Crusader levels and all Stone Dragon Maneuvers with his Warblade levels and then acquired 2 items, a white raven crown and a stone dragon belt (both at "scholar" effectiveness, granting up to 6th level maneuvers, 15k gp each).
His Crusader IL is 2 + 10/2 = 7.
His Warblade IL is 10 + 2/2 = 11.
When he uses the White Raven crown, he can add a white raven maneuver of up to level 4 to his Crusader maneuvers known or a white raven maneuver of up to level 6 to his Warblade maneuvers known. I think that the "maneuver count" part of the pre-reqs can be met across initiator classes, meaning the crown can add a 6th level WR maneuver to his Warblade pool of maneuvers even though he doesn't know any white raven maneuvers through Warblade (he knows a bunch of them from Crusader though). Bob could do the exact same thing with his stone dragon belt (4th level SD maneuver added to crusader or 6th level SD maneuver added to warblade). The stone dragon maneuvers he knows as a Warblade help to qualify him for adding an SD maneuver to his crusader list of maneuvers known, but he is still limited by his Crusader IL of 7 to 4th level maneuvers.
If Bob levels up and chooses to gain a level of Fighter and selects Martial Study as his bonus feat, he could choose a WR maneuver of up to 4th level and add it to his Crusader list of maneuvers known or he could choose a WR maneuver of up to 6th level and add it to his Warblade list of maneuvers known, exactly the same limitation he experienced using the white raven crown.
Note that adding to maneuvers known does not mean he magically gets any more maneuvers readied or granted, he just has more options to choose when he decides on which maneuvers to ready.
Does this help explain why Meyer_William's Orc cannot use the cloak to gain Fire Riposte (at least not until he reaches 6th character level)? He could use it to gain a 1st level Desert Wind maneuver right now. If he chose to ready that maneuver in one of his Warblade slots, his IL would indeed be 3 when he initiated it. But he does not yet qualify to select Swordsage IL 3+ maneuvers from the cloak (nor from martial study).
I am still baffled by what the OP would considered overpowered in regards to the adventure presented. Using no resources? One shotting everything? Taking no hits? A fundamental breakdown of the rules?
Agreed.
That is a good question. IMHO any character able to solo this adventure is overpowered. That a non-caster (or two) can do it does not mean a caster that can also do it is not overpowered too.
I guess that walking the dungeon "easily". As in spending very few resources, taking very little damage, doing so without obvious metagaming or without stacking the fights very obviously so to win. Such a character would really be more powerful than Meyer's warrior or a wizard that managed to complete the gauntlet but was almost without spells and wounded.
On the other hand I just posted a non-caster that did exactly that. Even when the encounters were stacked against him, everybody surprising him, he won easily and barely trying. And he was perfectly able to do it again at least 3 more times the very same day.
I strongly suspect the DMM cleric posted a while back could do it with a few small tweaks. And maybe the fleshraking druid too. But I definitely see that as brutal abuse of broken mechanics (DMM & polymorph) by all three characters, and not proof that casters are more powerful than non-casters at level 5.
Forgive me, I was being unclear.
Posting an "adventure" and seeing if it can be completed doesn't accurately measure or predict the relative under or over poweredness of a caster or non-caster. The fact that it's limited to a specific part of the game (combat only) then further shifts the discussion away from total contribution to only the combat sections.
I am still baffled by what the OP would considered overpowered in regards to the adventure presented. Using no resources? One shotting everything? Taking no hits? A fundamental breakdown of the rules?
The original theme of this thread was asking for examples of overpowered casters.
People posted things that didn't seem right to me (i.e. "Look, I can cast sleep, I am overpowered") so someone said "hey, lets take a look at how these casters perform, which will show the overpoweredness of them" -- which is how the mini-adventure began.
(otto said 50%, Ikeren started off at 100% and is still jumping around between 60-80), and you expect Meyer to know exactly which ones right?)
I am trying to negotiate something we can agree on for the purpose of running the exercise. The way it seems is that we are counting every attack roll with a 50%+ chance of succeeding as a success, and that doesn't make much sense to me.
Your giving meyer a hard time on the math because he is the ONLY person with math to harp on, thats got to count for something...
You missed my post again.
Is that the only thing that makes people believe casters are overpowered at this level?)
Divine metamagic: Persist
My method of using average damage (when the chance to hit on both sides is very high) most closely represents what should happen on average.
If you would like me to run using a different mathematical model which less closely represents what one would expect to see happen, then I fail to see what you are trying to prove?
The problem with your system is that it doesn't account for the chances of missing. I illustrated this quite clearly several times, but:
Round 1: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 2: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 3: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 4: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16, it dies
Doesn't account for the fact the 4th attack is significantly more likely to fail than succeed. How is that more accurate?
No. And that's why I don't support Ikeren's suggestion. He can't nail down a number. In addition, like I said, the 50%/150%/etc. threshold was used extensively in the gauntlet without fuss. I thought someone pointed out why that was the best threshold to use, but those threads are LONG and I can't find that single post now.
Alright. I'll re-run my battles using a 50%/-100%/to 50% method, with everything as obvious as possible.
Regarding the people who think 1/3/7/9 will also be bad for casters; at lower levels, save or dies like sleep are highly effective (especially at level 1). Also, pure damage sorcerer builds (like my fireballer) posted pages back are still highly effect.
At level 7, I get divine power. At level 9, Righteous might.
I've also figured out 3 new ways to optimize my caster, but only 2 of them are cleric only, and the 3rd may benefit Meyer more than I, so...
Once we do the CR 6 challenge, I'll post the new build that uses MIC items I now know about and a new SRD item.
I strongly suspect the DMM cleric posted a while back could do it with a few small tweaks. And maybe the fleshraking druid too. But I definitely see that as brutal abuse of broken mechanics (DMM & polymorph) by all three characters, and not proof that casters are more powerful than non-casters at level 5.
Brutal use of broken mechanics = overpowered. We are the Character Optimization forum, after all.
Warlock 5
Race Strongheart halfing
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 13
Wis 10
Int 12
Chr 15+1 at level 4
Hp 22 AC 16 Touch 12 Flat footed 14
Attacks eldritch blast +7 3d6 touch
Club +1 d4
Initiative +7
Saves F 2 R 3 W 4
Skills concentration 9=8rankes +1 con Knowledge arcana 9=8 rank+1 mod. Spot 10 cross class ranks+6 all seeing eyes.
Abilities
Invocations Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, All seeing eyes
Detect magic, Decieve Item, Dr 1/cold iron.
Feats Imp initiative. delay potion
Items (9k right?) +2 Cloak of charisma(4k), 2 potions of invisibility (300) Chain shirt (100) 5,600k remaining.
Tactics go in at night and blast the crap out of them from 250 feet.
Should work against the Manticore and the Snake, I don't know if my spot check is high enough to see the rug.
I don't really think this adding the success percentages together works very well. For example, if a creature only has a 5% chance of hitting (natural 20), and you start adding 5% per each attack, what happens when you pass 50%, and reach 55%, 60%, 65%, 70%.... Those should hit according to this method, right? But that doesn't model the statistical probability that the creature will only hit once out of 20 swings. So, I'm going to just count their number of attacks, and have them hit on the 10th attack and every 20 after that.
For other cases, I'm also going to use fractions and counting swings to determine when hits occur. For example, if my mage needs a 16 to hit something, that means he only hits on about 1 in 5 swings. So I'd have him miss twice, hit once, and then miss two more times, and then I'd start the count over. I'm going to use average damage for everything.
If noone objects, I'll run my character through the other encounters using this method later.
On the way to the cave: casts False Life (11.5 temp hit points), Mage Armor, Message, Protection from Energy (Acid), and Alter Self (Dwarf Ancestor). He also gains Psionic Focus.
These buffs all last either 50 minutes, or 5 hours, which I'll assume is long enough to do all encounters. His bat flies ahead (~300 feet ahead, 20 feet from the ground) scouting, and flies back to warn him if it spots something. He can sense it empathically up to 1 mile, in case something happens to it. Within 150 feet, they can talk via Message. I saw that Meyer stated that the manticore encounter occurred in the dark, but I'm not sure why. Since presumably I can choose when to start the adventure, I'm going to say it is during the daytime.
The mage's AC is "only" 32 at this point, and his attacks are [guisarme +4 (2d6+3), bow +2 (1d10+2)]. His ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) should allow him (and his scouting familiar) to identify the manticore, and know some things about it. The manticore can only hit him on a natural 20. He casts Vampiric Touch, and holds the touch attack. Then he walks up and pulls out his bow.
Statistics: The mage hits in melee 2/5 of the time, so lets say he misses on attacks 1,3, and 5. The manticore only fails on its reflex saves vs. the mage's breath weapon 3/10 of the time, so lets say it fails on attempts 3,6, and 9. The mage succeeds on tumble checks 3/5 of the time, so lets say he fails on attempts 2 and 4.The manticore only hits 1/20 times. Let's say it hits on attack 10 during it's volleys of spikes, and will hit every 20 attacks after that. The wizard's breath weapon refreshes on average in 2.5 rounds, so we'll say after 3 rounds the first time, 2 rounds the next, 3 after that, etc.
Rounds 1-4: The manticore launches 4 volleys of 6 spikes each. I'll assume it is between 50 and 100 feet away, so it can charge after the volleys. Spike number 10 hits for 6.5 points of damage. The wizard shoots four times (1/4 hit chance each), hitting once for 7.5.
Wizard 24+4 hit points, Manticore 49.5 hit points.
On round 5, the manticore charges (attack # 25, it won't hit again till 30) and misses. The mage hits with a touch attack (70% likely, unique attack, so not tallying it with the others), dealing 7 damage, which he gains as temporary hit points.
Wizard 24+11 hit points, Manticore 42.5 hit points.
Round 6: The manticore misses again (#26). The mage drops his bow, pulls out his guisarme, and breathes fire on the manticore (Reflex save attempt 1/10, succeeds) doing 4.5 points of damage. He tumbles (attempt 1/5, succeeds) away 10 feet.
Wizard 24+11 hit points, Manticore 38 hit points.
Round 7: The manticore closes and draws an AoO (wizard melee attack 1/5, misses). The manticore misses (#27). The manticore and wizard both take up 4 squares, so even when they're adjacent, the mage still threatens the back of the manticore. The mage attacks it with his guisarme (2/5, hit). The wizard decides to just hurt it, doing 10 damage. He then fails to tumble away (2/5, fails). The manticore misses on its AoO (#28).
Wizard 24+11 hit points, Manticore 28 hit points.
Round 8: The manticore closes and draws an AoO (3/5, miss). The manticore misses (#29). The mage attacks it again (4/5, hit), and tumbles away (3/5, success).
Wizard 24+11 hit points, Manticore 18 hit points.
Round 9: The manticore closes and draws an AoO (5/5, miss). The manticore hits (#30, 10 damage). The mage breathes fire again (Reflex 2/10, succeeds) for 4.5 damage. The mage fails to tumble away (4/5, fails). The manticore's AoO misses (#31, hits again on 50).
Wizard 24+1 hit points, Manticore 13.5 hit points.
Round 10: The manticore closes and draws an AoO (1/5, miss). The manticore misses (#32). The mage attacks it again (2/5, hits), and tumbles away (5/5, succeeds).
Wizard 24+1 hit points, Manticore 8 hit points.
Round 11: The manticore closes and draws an AoO (3/5, miss). The manticore misses (#33). The mage attacks it again (4/5, hits), killing it.
Wizard 24+1 hit points, Manticore dead.
The problem with your system is that it doesn't account for the chances of missing. I illustrated this quite clearly several times, but:
Round 1: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 2: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 3: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16
Round 4: I do 80% of 20 damage = 16, it dies
Doesn't account for the fact the 4th attack is significantly more likely to fail than succeed. How is that more accurate?
It is more accurate statistically, but notice.
First attack 80%. I say it works but will put a -20% to the next. 20 damage
Second attack 80-20=60%. I say it works but will put a -40% to the next. 20 damage.
Third attack 80-40=40%. I say it misses but will add +40% to the next attack. 0 damage.
Fourth attack 80+40=120%. I say it hits and will add +20% to the next attack. 20 damage.
If the enemy had 35 hp...
By the first system it dies in round 3
By the second it dies in round 2
If the enemy had 45 hp
By the first system it dies in round 3
By the second it dies in round 4
If the enemy had 55 hp
By the first system it dies in round 4
By the second it dies in round 4
If the enemy had 65 hp.
Likely dies in round 5 by both systems.
As you can see it does not really favors any of the systems. However if we calculate the average damages along a large number of rounds it is 16/round anyway. I'd say just applying 16 hp/round is more mathematically precise.
Brutal use of broken mechanics = overpowered. We are the Character Optimization forum, after all.
Yes, but some of them are broken mechanics that non-casters can abuse too. Anyone can abuse broken buffs, since they do not inflict a save on the enemy, and at the end PAO >>>> DMM-persistant Divine Power.
And if a character has the otherworldy feat he can be a dwarf ancestor permanently at level 4, for less than the cost of a full plate! 22 strength, 28 constitution, +18 natural armor!
Of course, a cleric can have *both*. But hey, Divine Power, or Righteous Might, are also buffs, accessible to anyone able to read a scroll. Even commoners. What makes casters so much more powerful? Certainly it does not seem to be the buffs.
What about fleshrakers? At level 5 a druid can have one. But at level 7 anyone, even a commoner, can have one through the wild cohort feat. And likely an arcane caster can buff it to the stratosphere too. Actually you can have a harmless pet (with enough HD) turned into a fleshraker permanently by paying a wizard for a PAO. And you have the cash at level 3! Then you can use a perfectly normal handle animal skill to turn it into a vicious killing machine. It is just a question of a few weeks.
Yes, but some of them are broken mechanics that non-casters can abuse too. Anyone can abuse broken buffs, since they do not inflict a save on the enemy, and at the end PAO >>>> DMM-persistant Divine Power.
And if a character has the otherworldy feat he can be a dwarf ancestor permanently at level 4, for less than the cost of a full plate! 22 strength, 28 constitution, +18 natural armor!
Of course, a cleric can have *both*. But hey, Divine Power, or Righteous Might, are also buffs, accessible to anyone able to read a scroll. Even commoners. What makes casters so much more powerful? Certainly it does not seem to be the buffs.
What about fleshrakers? At level 5 a druid can have one. But at level 7 anyone, even a commoner, can have one through the wild cohort feat. And likely an arcane caster can buff it to the stratosphere too. Actually you can have a harmless pet (with enough HD) turned into a fleshraker permanently by paying a wizard for a PAO. And you have the cash at level 3! Then you can use a perfectly normal handle animal skill to turn it into a vicious killing machine. It is just a question of a few weeks.
As I stated earlier, I think this entire line of argument is ridiculous. If you're buying spells, or relying on UMD to use magic items, you're abusing the power of the spellcaster you bought those things from, not your own power. You're basically pretending to be a spellcaster, so you can abuse spellcasting tactics. This certainly isn't doing anything to argue the point that spellcasting isn't overpowered, or that non-spellcasters are. It will also likely get prohibitively expensive, if you're relying on this as a main source of your character's strength, unless you allow the purchase of permanent effects far beyond what the character should have access to at that level (like PaO at level 3).
Which is why I don't think we should allow people to purchase spells or items which reproduce spells that are above the level of what an equal level caster could cast. Yeah, PaO is probably overpowered, but how many DMs would actually let you go pay someone to cast it on you at level 3? I am fairly sure none of the ones I've ever played with would. I think builds that cheese out the ability to cast higher level spells than they should be able to (like the Ascension character proposed earlier) should also be disqualified.
The original theme of this thread was asking for examples of overpowered casters.
People posted things that didn't seem right to me (i.e. "Look, I can cast sleep, I am overpowered") so someone said "hey, lets take a look at how these casters perform, which will show the overpoweredness of them" -- which is how the mini-adventure began.
Not to sound like a jerk, but was there a point to posting that response?
You didn't come even remotely close to defining what makes something overpowered, and you're not posting a defense or improvement of the flawed proving method, just why you started using it.
Can you clearly define what it makes something overpowered?
I think the answer should be : "No, you can't do that, you don't have Crusader IL = 17."
Martial Study does two things:
1: Choose a Martial Discipline; that discipline's key skill is a class skill for you.
2: Choose a Maneuver from that discipline. You know that maneuver.
Your IL is determined normally, just as it is for maneuvers learned by gaining levels in a Martial Adept class.
You are explicitly required to meet the maneuver's prerequisites, which I assume includes IL. You are explicitly allowed to choose a maneuver from the discipline you chose in step 1, which overrides the list of disciplines to which a Martial Adept class normally grants access.
It's like a Wizard/Unseen Seer who learns Hunter's Eye. He doesn't need a Ranger caster level; Hunter's Eye is added to his personal Wizard spell list, so he uses his Wizard caster level.
[color=red]You have combat reflexes. Does that allow you to use immediate actions such as Fire Riposte here? If yes and you didn’t, that’s meta-gamey. If no, then that’s cool. (I’m AFB and cannot access the net at work.)[/color]
Normally, you cannot act while flat-footed. Combat Reflexes specifically allows you to take attacks of opportunity, but it does not address Immediate actions (which, aside from Featherfall, didn't exist in Core). Technically, I think that means you can't use Featherfall if you're bull rushed off a cliff while flat-footed.
5,600k remaining.
Buy a Ring of the Darkhidden (2000gp, not sure what book though). It'll make you invisible to Darkvision. Then go in at night under a New Moon (as Meyer's Orc apparently did).
You'll also need something to protect you from Scent (which both the Snake and the Manticore have). The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, maybe. (Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea for my Cleric...)
This is basically what I was working on with my Whisper Gnome Cleric (which never got posted), until I realized that the tiny rooms totally hosed mobile characters (even if the snake can barely move).
This isn't even metagaming, as any fighter with any sanity would instantly pay for such an item. Every fighter would know about the uses of this spell and they would all seek to use it. Yes, it's that good. The fighter can use this spell for every battle for his entire career. It applies to all situations. It's the cheapest way to get +14 AC that I have ever seen.
I think it's too cheap. I will now go back to working on a plain-jane fighter.
@Meyer: What? I don't understand? Was that in response to me finding new items from a book I hadn't read and suggesting I might purchase them before the CR 6 round?
(2/5 encounters ran in the new method, class time, I'll do the rest after).
Oh, I like that trick of the dwarven ancestor. My fighter can get a single-use wondrous item made for him to get the same benefits. Whohoo. AC 39 before Combat Expertise.
This isn't even metagaming, as any fighter with any sanity would instantly pay for such an item. Yes, it's that good. It applies to all situations. It's the cheapest way to get +14 AC that I have ever seen. AC beyond armor and shield usually costs thousands to get.
My calculations says that a one-use item should cost @ 150gp. Cheapo! In addition to the AC, it gets me a size, damage, and grapple increase. Cool.
Now that I know this, I don't think that it's really necessary to run a plain old fighter through this scenario. Dwarven Ancestor for the Win!
Just a minute -- custom items are allowed? If so, you can be invulnerable by using Ring of the Darkhidden + Darkstalker feat, riding on a war-trained creature, and jacking up Ride (Goblin +4, Skill Focus from a flaw +3, Dex +3, ranks +8, synergy +2, and another...er...+7 from your item, plus whatever you can get from traits or whatever, giving an average Ride check of at least 37 and a min of 27). Some of the monsters actually *can't* hit that (b/c of the way Mounted Combat is worded, 20's don't pass it), and none out of the level 5 dungeon hit the average. Just find a way to not die from area attacks (i.e. dragon breath), and let your mount take its leisurely time killing the monsters for no resources. It doesn't matter in the slightest what *class* you are; an Expert could manage it.
eta: Ooh, UMD. Considering UMD in this comparison is pretty silly, because it will just devolve into "Well, I do that too." UMD is the most powerful thing in the game if you're willing to spend GP, by a long shot. Just look at the Artificer.
Martial Study does two things:
1: Choose a Martial Discipline; that discipline's key skill is a class skill for you.
2: Choose a Maneuver from that discipline. You know that maneuver.
I would say you missed something very important in step 2. It is not just "Choose a Maneuver from that discipline." It is "Choose a Maneuver from that discipline for which you meet the pre-requisites."
Your IL is determined normally, just as it is for maneuvers learned by gaining levels in a Martial Adept class.
You are explicitly required to meet the maneuver's prerequisites, which I assume includes IL. You are explicitly allowed to choose a maneuver from the discipline you chose in step 1, which overrides the list of disciplines to which a Martial Adept class normally grants access.
I thought I would draw attention to this link : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611
In particular, one of the first questions points out :
Q: How do you calculate initiator level if you have multiple martial adept classes (from Tome of Battle) and/or prestige classes?
A: Calculating initiator level for multiclass characters or characters with prestige classes can be a little tricky. Basically, you calculate the initiator level of each martial adept class separately. Your initiator level for a specific martial adept class is your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes. A 10th-level swordsage/5th-level warblade would have an initiator level of 12th for all swordsage maneuvers and for determining the maximum maneuver level that this character could learn as a swordsage. The same character would have an initiator level of 10th for determining the same effects of his warblade levels.
Prestige classes are generally treated just like multiclassing, adding 1/2 the level unless the prestige class specifically states otherwise, as do most of the prestige classes found in Tome of Battle.
You have to understand there is no such thing as generic "Initiator Level", instead there is "Warblade Initiator Level", "Crusader Initiator Level", and "Swordsage Initiator Level". Many points in the text where the rules refer to initiator level, the rules are assuming a single classed initiator and refering to his initiator level in the single particular class to which he has access.
Note that the Q&A FAQ also confirms that knowledge of maneuvers across initiator classes does indeed give credit toward the "must know X maneuvers" pre-requisite. But, you still have to meet the IL pre-requisite for the maneuver. For some maneuvers the IL pre-req could be met with one of several classes. Desert Wind, however, only counts Swordsage.
Oh, I like that trick of the dwarven ancestor. My fighter can get a single-use wondrous item made for him to get the same benefits. Whohoo. AC 39 before Combat Expertise. In addition to the AC, it gets me a size, damage, and grapple increase. Cool. Even better yet, a partially charged wand of Alter Self. A UMD of +2 can activate it. The best part is that this is an incredibly common low-level spell. Yay, insta-win.
This isn't even metagaming, as any fighter with any sanity would instantly pay for such an item. Every fighter would know about the uses of this spell and they would all seek to use it. Yes, it's that good. The fighter can use this spell for every battle for his entire career. It applies to all situations. It's the cheapest way to get +14 AC that I have ever seen.
I think it's too cheap. I will now go back to working on a plain-jane fighter.
1) You have to be an outsider to even turn into one.
2) It requires either a custom item, or a partially charged wand. Neither of these are listed in the core rules, and explicitly require DM adjudication to obtain. I think that makes them not very good candidates for this "contest".
The wand would also need a caster level of 5, while normally such a wand would have a CL of 3.
Not to sound like a jerk, but was there a point to posting that response?
You didn't come even remotely close to defining what makes something overpowered, and you're not posting a defense or improvement of the flawed proving method, just why you started using it.
Can you clearly define what it makes something overpowered?
Ok, I must have miscommunicated somewhat.
A spellcaster is overpowered if he is demonstratively better than a noncaster. (given)
To gauge the power level, that mini-adventure was spawned(given)
So to be overpowered, the spell caster would have to be quite a bit better than a noncaster. What Argaud, Clawhound, etc are trying to show with their Alter Self (PAO) contention is that if the arcane casters are winning via a cheaply duplicated spell (one charge from a wand of alter self = 5*2*15=150 gold, more if you want it a higher caster level) then saying that the CASTER is winning is incorrect.
Monks using a potion of mage armor expend one third as much gold as a charge from this wand. Three potions of cure light wounds cost as much as the charge.
In short, what does the arcane caster (who used the alter self technique) bring to the table?
As I stated earlier, I think this entire line of argument is ridiculous. If you're buying spells, or relying on UMD to use magic items, you're abusing the power of the spellcaster you bought those things from, not your own power. You're basically pretending to be a spellcaster, so you can abuse spellcasting tactics.
Oh, so when the wizard, like your own wizard does, starts fighting with a weapon... is he abusing the power of a fighter? Maybe he should be disqualified for not using spells to fight! Hey, he did a skill check, maybe he is abusing skill use and stealing the abilities that are rightfully the competence of skill monkeys.
But wait. Isn't it true even arcane spellcasters have a bab? And that even sorcerers and fighter have some skill points? Maybe they are supposed to use them! What a concept! Now, lets try to expand the concept a bit. There is a skill to use cheap magical items with spells, right? Dare I suggest maybe it is supposed to be used during the game?
And magical items. They exist! Maybe they are supposed to be used by non-casters to be more powerful, or even by casters!
This certainly isn't doing anything to argue the point that spellcasting isn't overpowered, or that non-spellcasters are. It will also likely get prohibitively expensive, if you're relying on this as a main source of your character's strength, unless you allow the purchase of permanent effects far beyond what the character should have access to at that level (like PaO at level 3).
And yet incredibly the game gives non-casters ways to use all those caster goodies. Including NPC casters able to cast high level spells on them. How odd, right? But maybe they are there to be used. And if the spells are broken, they can also be abused. And if they can be used by non-casters, then they are no longer exclusive of casters.
The character I posted defeated 5 CR 5 encounters spending less than 300 gp in resources. 5 CR 5 encounters give him 7500 xp, more than enough to raise one level. Which means he also earned loot for around 5000 gold. The costs of the expedition were negligible in comparison.
Which is why I don't think we should allow people to purchase spells or items which reproduce spells that are above the level of what an equal level caster could cast. Yeah, PaO is probably overpowered, but how many DMs would actually let you go pay someone to cast it on you at level 3? I am fairly sure none of the ones I've ever played with would. I think builds that cheese out the ability to cast higher level spells than they should be able to (like the Ascension character proposed earlier) should also be disqualified.
That is reasonable, but it is clearly houseruling. And what in-game justification would you give to have a level 15 caster refusing 1200 gold for casting a spell that costs him absolutely nothing in the PC?
Sorry, dude, the spell is too broken for level 3 characters?
Skill based classes ....... try to be effective(in all Areas of Life) by training themselves to be more versatile, by learning more skills
martial based Classes ..... try to be effective(in all areas of life) by training for Combat
Caster based Classes ..... try to be effective(in all areas of Life) by training themselves to manipulate Cosmic forces to change thier environment.
Casters simply grow stronger as they gain experiance(all classes do, but casters grow far stronger faster) ......
at low levels Casters Are weaker....... the questions are:
At what level do they become Stronger?
At what level do they far outstrip Non-casters in power?
from this exercise..... 5-7th lvl seems to be the turning point ... where they easily equal thier counterparts
you cant count a single level as the turning point....exa:
@5th lvl Wizards and Clerics get access to 3rd lvl Spells
@6th lvl Sorcerors and Favored Souls get access to 3rd lvl Spls
the differences are slight... but you might want to compare @ 6th, 8th, 10th lvls to get a more accurate sampling of casters
i am not aware of any NON-caster(by these definitions) that can Equal the Power of 8th and 9th lvl Spells
:D
1) You have to be an outsider to even turn into one.
2) It requires either a custom item, or a partially charged wand. Neither of these are listed in the core rules, and explicitly require DM adjudication to obtain. I think that makes them not very good candidates for this "contest".
The wand would also need a caster level of 5, while normally such a wand would have a CL of 3.
Page 227 of MIC lists partially charged wands. The only POSSIBLE objection is that although Magic Missile is shown at various levels, that Alter Self is not.
If the objection to a noncaster not being able to use the tactic of turning into a DWARVEN ANCESTOR through the use of OTHERWORDLY feat is that the partially charged wand is not core - then the objection needs to be readdressed. It is not possible to either get the feat, or be the monster in core.
Noncaster can take Otherworldly just as easy as a caster can.
Oh, I like that trick of the dwarven ancestor. My fighter can get a single-use wondrous item made for him to get the same benefits. Whohoo. AC 39 before Combat Expertise. In addition to the AC, it gets me a size, damage, and grapple increase. Cool. Even better yet, a partially charged wand of Alter Self. A UMD of +2 can activate it. The best part is that this is an incredibly common low-level spell. Yay, insta-win.
Exactly.
Well, you need to be an outsider to benefit from the form of a dwarf ancestor. But that is one feat for most races and none for a few.
This isn't even metagaming, as any fighter with any sanity would instantly pay for such an item. Every fighter would know about the uses of this spell and they would all seek to use it. Yes, it's that good. The fighter can use this spell for every battle for his entire career. It applies to all situations. It's the cheapest way to get +14 AC that I have ever seen.
Exactly! Just like all clerics use DMM-persitant, all druids have fleshraker ACs and all wizards... also use alter self + otherworldly. I am glad you have seen the light at last! :D
jacking up Ride (Goblin +4, Skill Focus from a flaw +3, Dex +3, ranks +8, synergy +2, and another...er...+7 from your item, plus whatever you can get from traits or whatever, giving an average Ride check of at least 37 and a min of 27).
+2 Synergy bonus from Handle Animal, I think you can get a +2 Circumstance bonus from gear (either a military saddle or a specialized bit & bridle-- basically a Masterwork Tool), +2 from the Animal Affinity feat, and +1 from the Saddleborn trait. Now you don't even need that custom magic item.
You have to understand there is no such thing as generic "Initiator Level", instead there is "Warblade Initiator Level", "Crusader Initiator Level", and "Swordsage Initiator Level". Many points in the text where the rules refer to initiator level, the rules are assuming a single classed initiator and refering to his initiator level in the single particular class to which he has access.
And Martial Study adds the maneuver to his list of maneuvers known in that class. If he uses his Warblade IL when initiating the maneuver, why doesn't he use it when learning it?
@Meyer: What? I don't understand? Was that in response to me finding new items from a book I hadn't read and suggesting I might purchase them before the CR 6 round?
No, you had mentioned that I might get more use out of item/whatnot than you would. I was just saying that I can't see that as being possible due to me already posting my stuff.
if a Non-caster is trying to keep up and has to use Spells(even from a wand).... then that shows that Non-Casters cant keep up with casters unless they also use Spells from Casters.
Casters can Keep up with Non-Casters by Means of thier spells,...... it is the spells that give them the power in the first place, thats why they become CASTERS
try making a Non-caster that doesnt use any spells(nor Wands,Scrolls, or any Spell completion or Spell trigger item) to keep up with a spell caster and see how they do........ take out ToB and they cant keep up
:D
For those of you who are talking about the Dwarven Ancestor, even a Humanoid with Alter Self at CL 3 can turn into a Crucian (Sandstorm) for +8 natural armor or a Troglodyte (Core) for +7.
And those forms are not bad. But lack size and high physical abilities. They are awesome, but not OMFG teh Broken!
It is not just +18 to natural armor. It is reach, and 22 strength, and 28 constitution!
Polymorph starts as badly overpowered, but becomes utterly broken as more and more monster manuals give us more and more ridiculously unbalanced critters. Animal companion has the same problem.
And Martial Study adds the maneuver to his list of maneuvers known in that class.
This is the statement that is false. Martial Study never reaches the point where it could "add the maneuver to his list of maneuvers known in that class", because he cannot select the maneuver in the first place because he does not meet the pre-requisites for it.
IF he can meet the pre-requisites, then, yes, he can select it, and then, yes he could even use his Warblade IL when he initiates it. As it stands right now in this example, the desert wind cloak cannot grant him the maneuver he wants. Next level his Swordsage IL will be 3, and it will work for him. If he takes a level of Warblade for his 6th character level, he can even initiate the maneuver with his Warblade IL of 4 next level.
Incidentally, I'm still not really sure how initiative works or whether the snake or rug will get a surprise round. If they do, I'll go ahead and admit that my character is probably hosed.
The Build
Slick, Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric 5 (Knowledge, Travel, Trickery)
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 6
HP: 21
AC: 20 (+3 Dex +1 Size +4 Armor +2 Shield)
BAB/Grapple: +2/-3
Speed: 40 (50 with Longstrider)
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus: Move Silently, Stealthy, Winter's Blast, Knowledge Devotion (B)
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Shaky
Traits: Quick
Skills: Concentration +10 (8 ranks +2 Con), Hide +21 (8 ranks +4 size +4 racial +2 feat), Knowledge: Arcana +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Knowledge: Dungeoneering (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Local (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Nature (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Religion +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Knowledge: The Planes +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Move Silently (cc) +13 (4 ranks +4 racial +5 feat), Spellcraft +3 (2 ranks +1 Int)
Spells:
0- No Light x3, Guidance x2
1- *Longstrider, Healthful Rest, Bless, Divine Favor, Obscuring Mist
2- *Invisibility, Bull's Strength, Silence x2
3- *Fly, Shivering Touch, Protection from Energy
Gear (8515 gp):
Heavy Pick (8gp)
Ring of the Darkhidden (2000gp)
Mithral Chain Shirt (2100gp)
Heavy Darkwood Shield (1257 gp)
Anklet of Translocation (1400gp)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (50 charges) (750gp)
Elixir of Sneaking x4 (1000gp)
Slick, Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric 5 (Knowledge, Travel, Trickery)
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 6
HP: 21
AC: 20 (+3 Dex +1 Size +4 Armor +2 Shield)
BAB/Grapple: +2/-3
Speed: 40 (50 with Longstrider)
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus: Move Silently, Stealthy, Winter's Blast, Knowledge Devotion (B)
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Shaky
Traits: Quick
Skills: Concentration +10 (8 ranks +2 Con), Hide +21 (8 ranks +4 size +4 racial +2 feat), Knowledge: Arcana +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Knowledge: Dungeoneering (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Local (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Nature (cc) +2 (1 rank +1 Int), Knowledge: Religion +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Knowledge: The Planes +9 (8 ranks +1 Int), Move Silently (cc) +13 (4 ranks +4 racial +5 feat), Spellcraft +3 (2 ranks +1 Int)
Spells:
0- No Light x3, Guidance x2
1- *Longstrider, Healthful Rest, Bless, Divine Favor, Obscuring Mist
2- *Invisibility, Bull's Strength, Silence x2
3- *Fly, Shivering Touch, Protection from Energy
Gear (8515 gp):
Heavy Pick (8gp)
Ring of the Darkhidden (2000gp)
Mithral Chain Shirt (2100gp)
Heavy Darkwood Shield (1257 gp)
Anklet of Translocation (1400gp)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (50 charges) (750gp)
Elixir of Sneaking x4 (1000gp)
:D
This is the statement that is false. Martial Study never reaches the point where it could "add the maneuver to his list of maneuvers known in that class", because he cannot select the maneuver in the first place because he does not meet the pre-requisites for it.
Let's take a look at the feat.
"If you have martial adept levels, this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known."
If a Warblade takes the feat, it certainly sounds like the maneuver in question becomes one of his Warblade maneuvers known...
Travel domain is of no help against grapple. Travel domain does not help at all against mundane restraints.
Thanks for the tip. Back to the drawing board...
alter self only gives +18 to natural armor and reach, but not Str or Con
:D
Ahh, you are right
. PAO, however, does it all (even give you the intelligence of the critter, which means dwarf ancestor is not what a wizard would want to become).Ahh, you are right
So (trying to follow you) ... for less than the cost of full plate, a noncaster can make better use of a wizard spell than a wizard?
I don't see the difference here. To add Fire Riposte to his maneuvers known
User error: replace user? Y/Y
The magic item doesn't add it to his maneuvers known. It grants him knowledge of the maneuver. Meyer used shorthand to list it with his maneuvers known instead of just in the cloak, but it doesn't actually appear on his list of maneuver's known.
This is akin to you claiming that having a magic item that allows the user to cast Enlarge Person -- like, say, a Belt of Growth -- adds that spell to his list of spells known, but since he doesn't have spellcaster levels, he can't use it.
Or a Belt of Healing. Or the thousands of other magic equipment that does the exact same thing.
In addition, the cloak specifically says he must meet the prerequisite. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, that's found with each maneuver. The section you keep referring to talks about gaining levels and selecting maneuvers. It says nothing about magic items.
In perfect honesty, he could have even chosen a 3rd level maneuver (Fan the Flames for example) and still been perfectly legal. And, preemptively, yes, that means a character that spends the money (45000 gold) on a lesser cloak could have Shadow Blink.
I'm with Meyer in one respect on this issue, that's the end of the discussion.
Level 1: Rogue 8 skill points:
4 each in tumble, balance, spot, listen, jump, UMD, 1 in Intimidate (3 below where I should be (oops)
Level 2: Barbarian 4 skill points
1 in jump, intimidate -- 2 in balance (CC)
Level 3: Fighter 2 skill points
Nimble Charge (2)
Level 4: Rogue 8 skill points
tumble +3
UMD +3
Up The Hill (2)
Level 5: Warblade 4 skill points
Tumble 1
Concentrate 1
Nimble Stand (2)
So -- it actually looks like i used three points too few, thanks. Lets bump up my concentration by 3.
Yes, Dunno why I called it slashing rage
Good catch, but since I do not list that in the fight, it shouldn't matter. But I will correct.
The trait agressive.
No smiley with a dunce cap; I did Rogue = 6 skill points. Either way though, at least that's corrected.
+2 Synergy bonus from Handle Animal, I think you can get a +2 Circumstance bonus from gear (either a military saddle or a specialized bit & bridle-- basically a Masterwork Tool), +2 from the Animal Affinity feat, and +1 from the Saddleborn trait. Now you don't even need that custom magic item.
Already had synergy; if the other 3 are all available (already taken 3 feats, so I guess there's one more) that would bring it up to 32/42, which means that the giant snake can only hit on a 20 when the character rolls a 2. Actually I forgot to add in the 1, so the character would have to roll a 1, so 1 in 400 chance. Anyone with Ride can do this with no resources apart from what's needed to not die from the dragon. Of course, this character would stink in an actual game, but in a series of solo 1v1 fights he's unbeatable.
(And it's just a tiny fraction of what can be done with custom items)
So (trying to follow you) ... for less than the cost of full plate, a noncaster can make better use of a wizard spell than a wizard?
That is nothing new, look what Haste, for instance, does to meleers compared to what it does for arcanists.
Some spells are just designed to buff the other classes.
Not that turning your little familiar into an horrendous magical creature is not nice. And if the familiar is an outsider...
Instead of breaking this up, I will just ramble ... it should be obvious what I am talking about.
re: Initiative. No, I did not assume autosuccess like you first write. I assume that if my initiative is really high, then i win, if it was close, then i lose. This is what you expect in a real game. -- This is not an error in my posting, this is how I decided to run it. Since there were no rules posted about it, it is as valid as any other method that does not look overwhelmingly unfair. I paid for a high init with a feat and a trait. Using this bonus is only fair.
re: Fire Riposte vs Snake. Tracking percentages across fights changed the success to a failure. This is not an error.
re: wraith: Flatfooted characters cannot use immediate actions (like fire riposte) So this is not an error.
The removal of the fire brand?blade? whatever is a legit error, but it changes nothing.
re: Rug ... thats wierd. However, a normal character (not having improved uncanny dodge or combat reflexes) cannot react to the rug grappling them, as they are flat footed (no AoOs)
Honestly, did anything change with this latest examination of my fight? Did I still kill it the same way I posted? In the same number of swings?
Sorry, getting a smidgeon defensive.
I'm trying to be very neutral in that critique. You know my stance, so it's understandable if that shows through in my words, and I understand if you get defensive.
Initiative: I didn't say it was your error. I said it looked like that's what you were doing. I just ran with an alternative: accumulated percentage for initiative as well.
Rug: Very weird. I realize the Combat Reflexes is required to make it trivial, and that's why I didn't do the Rug combat with your orc. It's not even worth the time to do the math unless you change the tactics to 'it attacks the PC'.
-=-=
I had an inkling on why the 50% threshold was originally used. A commoner swinging at a commoner has a 50% chance to hit -- AC 10 v. Str 10, +0 BAB -- and it just went from there. Honestly, if everyone is following the same break points, then it hardly matters if the number is 50 or 60%, but 100% is a bit ridiculous. I'd say the criticism of weighted damage is a valid one, which is why I'd prefer the accumulated percentages. It didn't change your fight, but it's just the way I prefer. Sorta like you prefer a weighted damage system is just the way you prefer it, right?
Four levels of non-tob + 1 level of Tob = Initiator level 3 -- which is enough for a level two manuever
I am assuming that you read the fact that there was a door, and that the corridor varied from 5 to 10 ft. The rug, being huge (15x15) is unable to charge as it is squeezed (best case -- worst case, it cannot move through the 5' space)).
So far, there is nothing illegal about the build yet. And both instances of me dying based on changing the posted tactics of the monster due to out-of-game knowledge, invalid encounter distance, or changing the formation of the encounter -- each of which should be frowned upon.
Swordsage IL != Warblade IL
Your Warblade IL is 3
Your swordsage IL is 2.5
Level 10 build
Show
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 14 [color=red]looks like 8th level boost here[/color]
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 73 [color=red]6 + 6.5 + 5.5 + 3.5 + 6.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 + 4.5 + 20 = 72.5, rounded up so other character can do so, too.[/color]
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Barbarian 1: Fighter 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1: Ranger 1: Fighter 2: Swordsage 1: Pious Templar 1: Swordsage 2:
Skills: [color=red]32 + 4 + 2 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 72; you haven't used them all[/color]
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -1(armor) +2(Synergy) = +11
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -1 (armor) = 6
Spot 5 -1 = 4
Listen 4 -1 = 3
Jump 8 + 5 + 2 -1(armor) = 14
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Knowledge Religion = 4
Knowledge Arcana = 1
Concentration 8 +2 = 10
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Extreme Leap
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain, etc: Swordsage)
True Believer
Extra Rage
Leap Attack
Track
[color=red]Describe how you got rid of Martial Study (burning brand) that the 5th level version had.[/color]
Class Features
Evasion
Mettle
Slashing Rage 1(3)/day
Pounce[color=red] How did you get pounce? You already took the Slashing Rage [Whirling Frenzy] variant.[/color]
Speak With animals/plants 3/day (complete champion Ranger Variant)
Favored Enemy Arcanists (ranger variant)
Manuevers Known (Warblade)
Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Mind
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
[color=red]Looks like you didn't replace the Martial Study feat to gain Weapon Focus, since Burning Blade still appears on the warblade maneuver known list.
Since you'll need weapon focus for Pious Templar, you'll have to change feats up a little bit. Note that Swordsage doesn't actually give you the feat Weapon Focus, just the benefits of it.[/color]
Manuevers Known (Swordsage)
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, death Mark, Burning Brand
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Shadow Hand: Shadow Jaunt, Child of Shadows, Assassin's Stance, Shadow Garrote
Equipment:
Spiked Chain Shirt +1 (+1 warning)
Least Crystal of Mind Shielding
Spiked Chain +1, least intelligent, Bless 3/day
Boots of the Mountain King, Steadfast boots[color=red]Ah, this insanity again. Never mind then.[/color]
Dragon Mask
Belt of Healing
Potion of Fly
Desert Wind Cloak (Fire Riposte)
2 potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow (str+5) +1
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Cloak of Protection +3
Bands of Blood Rage
Ring of the DarkHidden
Rod of Bodily Restoration
Unbuffed
Fort 11+2-3+3 = 13
Ref 8+2+1+3=14
Will 5-1+3+3-1=9
Init: 0+4+2+2+5 = +13
To hit: 8+5+1+1=+15
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder.
With both evasion and mettle up, he should be immune to anything with a save for partial.
Reposting corrected build.
Remember, this character is meant to be part of a party. He is not meant to do everything himself. He brings a lot to the table in addition to melee.
Race: Orc
Elite Array + racial +1 str at 4th.
Str 20
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 14
Con 14 [color=red]looks like 8th level boost here[/color]
Char 6
AC 15
Al TN
HP 73 [color=red]6 + 6.5 + 5.5 + 3.5 + 6.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 + 4.5 + 20 = 72.5, rounded up so other character can do so, too.[/color]
Level: Feat Rogue 1: Barbarian 1: Fighter 1: Feat Rogue 2: Warblade 1: Ranger 1: Fighter 2: Swordsage 1: Pious Templar 1: Swordsage 2:
Skills: [color=red]32 + 4 + 2 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 72; you haven't used them all[/color]
Tumble 8 +2 (dex) -1(armor) +2(Synergy) = +11
Balance 5 +2 (dex) -1 (armor) = 6
Spot 5 -1 = 4
Listen 4 -1 = 3
Jump 8 + 5 + 2 -1(armor) = 14
UMD 7 -2 = 5
Knowledge Religion = 4
Knowledge Arcana = 1
Concentration 8 +2 = 10
Intimidate 5 -2 = 3
Skill Tricks:
Nimble Charge
Up The Hill
Nimble Stand
Extreme Leap
Racial
Darkvision 60'
Light Sensitivity
Traits:
Aggressive
Detached
Flaws:
Vulnerable
Meager Fortitude
Feats:
Close Quarter Fighting
EWP Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Draconic Aura: Vigor
Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain, etc: Swordsage)
True Believer
Extra Rage
Leap Attack
Track
[color=red]Describe how you got rid of Martial Study (burning brand) that the 5th level version had.[/color]
Class Features
Evasion
Mettle
Slashing Rage 1(3)/day
Pounce[color=red] How did you get pounce? You already took the Slashing Rage [Whirling Frenzy] variant.[/color]
Speak With animals/plants 3/day (complete champion Ranger Variant)
Favored Enemy Arcanists (ranger variant)
Manuevers Known (Warblade)
Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Mind
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Rabid Wolf Strike
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Stances Known:
Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
[color=red]Looks like you didn't replace the Martial Study feat to gain Weapon Focus, since Burning Blade still appears on the warblade maneuver known list.
Since you'll need weapon focus for Pious Templar, you'll have to change feats up a little bit. Note that Swordsage doesn't actually give you the feat Weapon Focus, just the benefits of it.[/color]
Manuevers Known (Swordsage)
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, death Mark, Burning Brand
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor
Shadow Hand: Shadow Jaunt, Child of Shadows, Assassin's Stance, Shadow Garrote
Equipment:
Spiked Chain Shirt +1 (+1 warning)
Least Crystal of Mind Shielding
Spiked Chain +1, least intelligent, Bless 3/day
Boots of the Mountain King, Steadfast boots[color=red]Ah, this insanity again. Never mind then.[/color]
Dragon Mask
Belt of Healing
Potion of Fly
Desert Wind Cloak (Fire Riposte)
2 potions of enlarge
2 potions of faith healing
Composite Longbow (str+5) +1
Assorted Arrows
Cold Iron Spiked Chain
Silver Spiked Chain
Cloak of Protection +3
Bands of Blood Rage
Ring of the DarkHidden
Rod of Bodily Restoration
Unbuffed
Fort 11+2-3+3 = 13
Ref 8+2+1+3=14
Will 5-1+3+3-1=9
Init: 0+4+2+2+5 = +13
To hit: 8+5+1+1=+15
Damage: 2d4+7+1=2d4+8 (average 13)
Tactics:
Since he has darkvision, there is no need for light.
His high init means he usually gets the jump on enemies long before they do.
His Spiked chain / combat reflexes lets him take an attack on his enemies before they threaten him.
His 1/encounter abilities give him a lot of options.
He always has his draconic vigor up, which autoheals himself/others up to half. Post 1/2, he can use his healing belt or potions for the remainder.
With both evasion and mettle up, he should be immune to anything with a save for partial.
Reposting corrected build.
Remember, this character is meant to be part of a party. He is not meant to do everything himself. He brings a lot to the table in addition to melee.
L'Avantgarde Noire
What's the deal with the two boots?
L'Avantgarde Noire
The steadfast boots vague poor description caused Otto and Meyer (and me) some headache in other thread.
Basically they seem to allow a free double-damage attack to anyone that charges the wearer if the wearer has a two-handed weapon.
After much arguing with custserv we managed to extract from them a working and tolerable version of the ability: basically they allow the wearer to declare to have readied an attack against anyone that charges them, and do double damage (this on top of giving the steadfast ability of dwarves) with all the drawbacks of acting on a ready action.
They still allow to massacre an army that charges you, though. You can declare ready action against any number of enemies. As long as they keep charging you, they will suffer much pain.
No, you had mentioned that I might get more use out of item/whatnot than you would. I was just saying that I can't see that as being possible due to me already posting my stuff.
Medium (or minor) Bloodline :D I won't though - both of us could abuse it, and the stat increases would benefit you slightly more.
And I was suggesting for a CR 6 adventure, I'd include slight adjustments from the MIC (borrowed a friends copy to look up a few things) since I now found a few more slightly optimized increases.
I don't really know why you are posting a 10th level build. I was thinking we were going to pit our 5th level characters against CR 6 encounters.
isnt this about Casters ...... using Spells to be Powerful
if a Non-caster is trying to keep up and has to use Spells(even from a wand).... then that shows that Non-Casters cant keep up with casters unless they also use Spells from Casters.
Casters can Keep up with Non-Casters by Means of thier spells,...... it is the spells that give them the power in the first place, thats why they become CASTERS
Yeah, yeah! And druids that use melee wildshaped and their companions using melee and their summons using melee: I didn't realize that the druids are the IMBA noncaster class in the game but I realize it now. Anyone using melee proves noncasters are the IMBA!!!
Seriously, casters presented so far are matchable in power by a Commoner. Commoner. Not even en Expert, but a Commoner. Casters failed to bring anything unique to the table.
I guess casters should be powered up then. Hopefully 4ed will at least triple their power.
[/sarcasm]
Skills: [color=red]32 + 4 + 2 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 72; you haven't used them all[/color]
Either that ... or some of those are cross class skills ... give you one guess which one it is?
Feats:
[color=red]Describe how you got rid of Martial Study (burning brand) that the 5th level version had.[/color]
Retraining, PHB2 -- I swapped the feat for a different one, and took the maneuver as one known as a swordsage to keep the flavor.
Class Features
Slashing Rage 1(3)/day
Pounce[color=red] How did you get pounce? You already took the Slashing Rage [Whirling Frenzy] variant.[/color]
Slashing rage replaces normal rage
Pounce replaces fast movement, there is no issue.
Manuevers Known (Warblade)
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Fire Riposte (from cloak)
Looks like you didn't replace the Martial Study feat to gain Weapon Focus, since Burning Blade still appears on the warblade maneuver known list.
Notice, it was in both warblade and swordsage -- the correct place was just swordsage.
Since you'll need weapon focus for Pious Templar, you'll have to change feats up a little bit. Note that Swordsage doesn't actually give you the feat Weapon Focus, just the benefits of it.[/b][/color]
I am unsure of this, but if Swordsage gives you all the benefits of it, then it should work. I cannot imagine them stacking as they are the same thing.
RAI supports me (can't imagine anyone wanting it to be any other way)
And this is the Char Opt board ... I think this is legit.
Equipment:
Boots of the Mountain King, Steadfast boots[color=red]Ah, this insanity again. Never mind then.[/color]
What can I say, I like them. If no one tosses charges at me, then these boots don't do anything.
How are you wearing two pairs of boots at once?
L'Avantgarde Noire
Either that ... or some of those are cross class skills ... give you one guess which one it is?
With all those dips, what on earth ate up that many skill points?
Retraining, PHB2 -- I swapped the feat for a different one, and took the maneuver as one known as a swordsage to keep the flavor.
K
Slashing rage replaces normal rage
Pounce replaces fast movement, there is no issue.
I'll look for it, but I'm pretty sure you can't take the first level of one variant and the first level of a different variant.
Notice, it was in both warblade and swordsage -- the correct place was just swordsage.
Ok. Seeing it in the warblade list was the problem.
I am unsure of this, but if Swordsage gives you all the benefits of it, then it should work. I cannot imagine them stacking as they are the same thing.
RAI supports me (can't imagine anyone wanting it to be any other way)
And this is the Char Opt board ... I think this is legit.
There have been many instances on the board (back when I frequented it) that it most certainly wasn't allowed. It was written in that way, different than saying 'you gain the weapon focus feat for a weapon of the chosen discipline', and should be taken to mean as much.
What can I say, I like them. If no one tosses charges at me, then these boots don't do anything.
The problem is the ambiguity, the cost, and the tendency for the user in these encounter/post instances to say things like "it charges me, cos that's the best tactic and that's what it would do."
Even the post Argaud made isn't the best explanation, but it's understandable because the CustServe answer was so close to useless. To me it would have been simpler to just make it an immediate action. That seems the most fair for what it does and the cost of the items.
Even if that's ignored, the DMG already had rules for combining items.
And I was suggesting for a CR 6 adventure, I'd include slight adjustments from the MIC (borrowed a friends copy to look up a few things) since I now found a few more slightly optimized increases.
I don't really know why you are posting a 10th level build. I was thinking we were going to pit our 5th level characters against CR 6 encounters.
Someone way back there (points to posts hundreds and hundreds ago) commented that i was too dip heavy and wondered what I would look like at 10th level.
I might be able to compete at level 6, but I doubt it. Not with this reasonably optimized build. And I have no intention of going the alter self cheese. (Unless I have to)
No, not at level 6.
Our level 5 characters taking on CR 6 challenges. If someone would like to set something quick up (I'd suggest Otto, if you can, you seem like a decent guy), I'll definitely run the numbers.
The new run of the cleric (I didn't add the Healing Belt or the Reliquary Holy Symbol, which I think are both more optimized, but I won't until we both prepare for the CR 6 challenges)
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
This builds requirements are:
1) Persist Spell (Multiple, Complete Arcane)
2) Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine)
3) SRD (Cleric, Normal items, human)
4) Player Handbook 2
Extra things: Fist of Stone (races of stone) saves the magic weapon cost, and gives 2d6 damage, which is slightly better than a +1 magical morningstar.
Faith Healing (Magic of Faerun). Useful for in and out of battle healing, although it could be done, slightly more expensive, with a wand of CLW or healing belt (MIC).
Spell Compendium (Domains): It can be done without planning and undeath, but that is sub-optimal.
6) Unearthed Arcana: Equally, this can be done without flaws, but also suboptimal.
If you are using JUST Core and Complete, you can still do this: your build would look like: Human: Extend, 1st level Persist, 3rd DMM Persist, with only CHA+3 turn attempts, or a Charisma of 18 required. 14 base + Eagles Splendor can achieve that, gaining 1 persist - Divine Retaliation or Channelled Divine Shield. It will obviously be far less powerful than this build, which uses a wider array for true optimziation, but DR 10/Evil or Counter attacks with BAB Wis+CL (uncapped!) Is hard to consider weak in any place.
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4=36 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8-2 = 6
WIS: 15+1+2 = 18
CHA: 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Int)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 19
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
+1 Fullplate (2650 gp)
+1 Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (1160 gp)
+2 Wisdom Item (4000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Spent: 7120
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp) (Or a healing belt? What does that do? It seems like you can drain charges from it to get 2d8 hp?)
Wand of Faith Healing (750 gp)
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+9+3+1 =23, touch 11, FF 22
Saves: 7/3/8
BAB: 3
Spells Prepared:
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead
Shield of Faith, Divine Favour, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain) Aid, Stone Fist, Eagle's Splendor,
3- Channeled Divine Shield, Divine Retaliation, Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Some people complained that I used my deities favourite weapon as a great sword, and insisted I go down to a d8 weapon. Despite these claims not being well founded in the rules, I am confident I still can even if I abide by these silly restrictions.
Pages 106 and 110 respectively.
Races of Stone Pg 163: Stone Fist - Medium unarmed attacks deal 2d6+Str, treated as armed. Range: Personal, Cast time = Standard action, Duration: 1 round/level
Buffing up:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Divine Retaliation
Cast Eagles Splendor
Persist Stone Fist
HP 36:
AC: 10+9+3+1 =23, touch 11, FF 22
Saves: 6/2/7
BAB: 3
Attack: +4, 2d6+1
DR 10/Evil
With all those dips, what on earth ate up that many skill points?
Would you believe, no class had knowledge religion or arcana?
The classes that DO have it, are ones like paladin (no thank you, either be cheesy with alignment swaps -- or lose rage) or casters. I cannot in good conscience take a level of a caster (even when i cannot cast the spells) to prove how underpowered casters are.
Factotem had it, but I would have had to lose ANOTHER point of BAB.
I'll look for it, but I'm pretty sure you can't take the first level of one variant and the first level of a different variant.
Ah, here's the confusion. Neither are level variants, they are ability variants.
There have been many instances on the board (back when I frequented it) that it most certainly wasn't allowed. It was written in that way, different than saying 'you gain the weapon focus feat for a weapon of the chosen discipline', and should be taken to mean as much.
A link would be helpful, if not ... does anyone mind if we play it this way?
Also, regarding the boots -- I paid 150% for the second ability.
Show
Character: Erin, the pre deunificationist.
Race: Grey elf
Classes: wizard (illusionist) 5.
Specialist (illusionist), focused specialist (illusionist), fighter feat variant, brief figment variant.
Traits: Specialist (illusion)
Flaws: Noncombatant and murkey eyed.
First level feat: Spell focus illusion
Flaw feat: Greater spell focus illusion
Flaw feat: extend spell
Wizard 1 fighter feats variant: Improved initiative
Third level feat: metamagic school focus
Fifth level feat: trickery domain ability (complete champion variant)
Barred enchantments, abjurations, evocations
Spells at each level:
0: 2 prestidigitation, ghost sound, detect magic
1: magic weapon, 3 silent images, magic armour, 2 unseen servant
2: 2 command undead, 2 hypnotic pattern, mirror image
3: heart of water, 1 empty slot, 2 shadow bindings
Elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Strength, 8 (10)
Dexterity, 13 (15)
Constitution, 14 (12)
Intelligence 15 (18/20) level 4 bonus.
Wisdom 8
Charisma 12
Saves:
Fort: 3
Ref: 4
Will: 3
Initiative: +6
Melee attack, +1, Ranged, +4(5), grapple +1.
Damage, 6.5 ranged, 1.5 melee.
Skills
8 concentration (7)
6 tumble (8)
14.5 hide (11)
Spellcraft 13 (8)
Knowledge arcane 13 (8)
Equipment: Spell book (100), spell component pouch (5), 3 potions of cure light wounds (150), longbow (375) 40 arrows (2) dagger (2), +2 headband of intelligence (4000), cloak of elven kind (2500), 3 bullseye lanterns (36), flint and tinder (1), 4 extra cloaks (2 *cost as blanket))
Hit +1/+5, grapple +1
AC 16, 12 touch, 14 flat footed.
HP 19
Notes: Always hiding and moving silently. All illusions are extended. Heart of water has been cast. Unseen servant with a cloak over it, carrying a lit bullseye lamp is walking 40-20 feet in front of me. Unseen servant walks 20 feet forward, I wait, then I move 20, so I’m never hiding while moving unnecessarily. Mage armour is active. Magic weapon on the longbow.
Character: Erin, the pre deunificationist.
Race: Grey elf
Classes: wizard (illusionist) 5.
Specialist (illusionist), focused specialist (illusionist), fighter feat variant, brief figment variant.
Traits: Specialist (illusion)
Flaws: Noncombatant and murkey eyed.
First level feat: Spell focus illusion
Flaw feat: Greater spell focus illusion
Flaw feat: extend spell
Wizard 1 fighter feats variant: Improved initiative
Third level feat: metamagic school focus
Fifth level feat: trickery domain ability (complete champion variant)
Barred enchantments, abjurations, evocations
Spells at each level:
0: 2 prestidigitation, ghost sound, detect magic
1: magic weapon, 3 silent images, magic armour, 2 unseen servant
2: 2 command undead, 2 hypnotic pattern, mirror image
3: heart of water, 1 empty slot, 2 shadow bindings
Elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Strength, 8 (10)
Dexterity, 13 (15)
Constitution, 14 (12)
Intelligence 15 (18/20) level 4 bonus.
Wisdom 8
Charisma 12
Saves:
Fort: 3
Ref: 4
Will: 3
Initiative: +6
Melee attack, +1, Ranged, +4(5), grapple +1.
Damage, 6.5 ranged, 1.5 melee.
Skills
8 concentration (7)
6 tumble (8)
14.5 hide (11)
Spellcraft 13 (8)
Knowledge arcane 13 (8)
Equipment: Spell book (100), spell component pouch (5), 3 potions of cure light wounds (150), longbow (375) 40 arrows (2) dagger (2), +2 headband of intelligence (4000), cloak of elven kind (2500), 3 bullseye lanterns (36), flint and tinder (1), 4 extra cloaks (2 *cost as blanket))
Hit +1/+5, grapple +1
AC 16, 12 touch, 14 flat footed.
HP 19
Notes: Always hiding and moving silently. All illusions are extended. Heart of water has been cast. Unseen servant with a cloak over it, carrying a lit bullseye lamp is walking 40-20 feet in front of me. Unseen servant walks 20 feet forward, I wait, then I move 20, so I’m never hiding while moving unnecessarily. Mage armour is active. Magic weapon on the longbow.
And uhm, are you just going to leave those wraiths to terrorize whoever they want, or do you have a plan for getting rid of them?
Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Also, I don't think the Manticore, Snake, Rug, or Dragon count as humanoid. Unless they're pretty freaky looking humans :D
Edit: Thanks for the Coding, Meyers.
This benchmark is based on my back-engineering the CR system. I believe that this build is the one that WotC used as a testbed against their encounters. The degree to which this build comes out 50/50 in fights is noteworthy.
Joe Whitebread
Joe Whitebread
Fighter 5
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
HP: 37 (10 base + 5.5x4 + 5 con)
AC: 25 (full plate +1, Tower Shield +1, Dex +1)
Fort: +6, Will +1, Ref: +2
Melee: +8 (+5 BAB, +3 Strength)
Masterwork Longsword (+8, 1d8+5) (9.5 avg) (+1 masterwork to hit, +1 weapon specialization to hit, +2 weapon expertise to damage, -2 shield)
4 Javelins (+5, 1d6+3)
Spiked Gauntlets
Skills: Handle Animal +8, Ride +10, Swim +12
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
1st Level: Cleave
1st Fighter: Fastdraw
2nd Fighter: Combat Expertise
3rd Human: Weapon Focus (LS)
4th Fighter: Weapon Expertise (LS)
Full plate +1
tower shield +1 with continuous flame
+1 longsword
p of shield of faith
p of remove fear
p of mage armor
p of bless weapon
p of protection from evil
p of enlarge
p of barkskin +2
p of bear's endurance
p of hide from undead
p of blur
p of bull's strength
p of delay poison
p or resist acid (I assume that he knows that he is going after a black dragon)
Joe Whitebread
Fighter 5
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
HP: 37 (10 base + 5.5x4 + 5 con)
AC: 25 (full plate +1, Tower Shield +1, Dex +1)
Fort: +6, Will +1, Ref: +2
Melee: +8 (+5 BAB, +3 Strength)
Masterwork Longsword (+8, 1d8+5) (9.5 avg) (+1 masterwork to hit, +1 weapon specialization to hit, +2 weapon expertise to damage, -2 shield)
4 Javelins (+5, 1d6+3)
Spiked Gauntlets
Skills: Handle Animal +8, Ride +10, Swim +12
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
1st Level: Cleave
1st Fighter: Fastdraw
2nd Fighter: Combat Expertise
3rd Human: Weapon Focus (LS)
4th Fighter: Weapon Expertise (LS)
Full plate +1
tower shield +1 with continuous flame
+1 longsword
p of shield of faith
p of remove fear
p of mage armor
p of bless weapon
p of protection from evil
p of enlarge
p of barkskin +2
p of bear's endurance
p of hide from undead
p of blur
p of bull's strength
p of delay poison
p or resist acid (I assume that he knows that he is going after a black dragon)
Wraiths do con damage, not level drain.
And uhm, are you just going to leave those wraiths to terrorize whoever they want, or do you have a plan for getting rid of them?
Also, I don't think the Manticore, Snake, Rug, or Dragon count as humanoid. Unless they're pretty freaky looking humans :D
Edit: Thanks for the Coding, Meyers.
Told ya I did something wrong. :D I think the end result is the same, though I take a heck of a lot longer to kill the dragon, and would need to actually use my some abilities, like mirror image to last while the wraith killed him.
I do leave the wraith alone afterwards. If I tell him to stay in these caves while I leave, he will stay until the spell wears off, and I'll be long gone by then. Likely won't be able to find me, nor care enough to try.
Went back and editted my run. Thanks for the catch. :D
The dragon fort save is +9, so he saves 80% against the wraith. He gets hit 80% of the time, so he loses Con 16% of the rounds (~.5 points/round). He will lose about 6-7 points before killing the wraith.
Anyone have any comments on that battle, or the method I used to determine random events in it? I'll probably do the others tommorrow using the same method.
so I take that to mean that it continues to fire spikes until it is out of them. That's what I had it do in the battle I typed up with it.
I did it too in my rerun!
Would you believe, no class had knowledge religion or arcana?
The classes that DO have it, are ones like paladin (no thank you, either be cheesy with alignment swaps -- or lose rage) or casters. I cannot in good conscience take a level of a caster (even when i cannot cast the spells) to prove how underpowered casters are.
Factotem had it, but I would have had to lose ANOTHER point of BAB.
Pious Templar is a spellcaster. :P
Ah, here's the confusion. Neither are level variants, they are ability variants.
Perhaps that's ok, but I'm unsure of the ruling on that.
A link would be helpful, if not ... does anyone mind if we play it this way?
After 2 years and 2 computers since I frequented this board, I doubt I could find a specific link. Suffice to say, it's pretty clear when a class grants a bonus feat and when it doesn't. So, I guess I mind, but that's true of all characters, not just yours. It's part of that whole 'trying to follow the written rules' bit.
edit: [email]custserv@wizards.com[/email] returned as 'unknown address' when I submitted that question. I'll go digging for the proper place to ask, but that'll delay the answer a little bit.
Round 1: I drink my potion of flight, drop prone, and rage.
Can we rename your character Mr. Furious?
Pious Templar is a spellcaster. :P
Are you arguing that anything that can cast spells is disqualified as a melee option, even if it is a full BAB class/PrC and only offers partial spellcasting? If so, I'll argue anything that has partial or better BAB is disqualified as a spellcaster, even if it has full caster progression, which means druids and clerics. ;P
Pious templar is a full BAB PrC that does not require any spellcasting to enter, it's casting is on par with that of a ranger or paladin, which are considered as melee class's.
I realize the smiley is an attempt at humor, but to what degree is hard to say.
Pious Templar is a spellcaster. :P
If you HONESTLY think that my wis 8 character who picked up 1 level of pious templar is considered a spellcaster ... I don't know how to respond.
Pious Templar's spellcasting ability is on par with that of a ranger / paladin -- which are definitely allowed to be talked about in this discussion.
What about factotem, would that be a spellcaster? (or is its spell-like ability nonsense making it excluded from spellcasters).
Spellthief I would call a caster, as the majority of the class is built around spellcasting.
When people talk about spellcasters owning at 20th level ... do you honestly think that pious templar is one of the things that is included in that?
After 2 years and 2 computers since I frequented this board, I doubt I could find a specific link. Suffice to say, it's pretty clear when a class grants a bonus feat and when it doesn't. So, I guess I mind, but that's true of all characters, not just yours. It's part of that whole 'trying to follow the written rules' bit.
The example character on page 20 is listed as having the weapon focus bonus feat.
And the wording of the 1st level ability compared to the example character makes the intent known.
You do not gain
Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Focus (light mace), Weapon focus (Light pick), weapon focus (Spear), Weapon focus (Falchion) - 5 feats
You gain
Weapon focus (Scimitar, light mace, light pick, spear, falchion) - 1 feat
The was probably done so that warblades could not dip into swordsage and change certain of the weapon focuses to things like greatswords, armor spikes, etc ...
I can't imagine WOTC saying to themselves, lets make a PrC which encourages players to have warblade/crusader/swordsage levels (master of the nine), give them the ability to pick up weapon specialization (warblade can pick up fighter only feats) but require them to waste a feat on weapon focus when they get no benefit for it (this example is staying completely in the ToB + core feats).
Can we rename your character Mr. Furious?
Um ... why? (is this a Mystery Man reference?)
Anyone have any comments on that battle, or the method I used to determine random events in it? I'll probably do the others tommorrow using the same method.
Comments:
False Life and Vampiric Touch both give temp hps. The new ones do not get added to the old ones.
I had it happen at night, as I had darkvision and wanted every possible advantage. As it turns out, the manticore had darkvision as well, but at least it couldn't kill me before I got in range to interact with it (like it could have in daylight). As adventurers, we get to choose (for the most part) what time of day we participate in adventures.
Are you arguing that anything that can cast spells is disqualified as a melee option, even if it is a full BAB class/PrC and only offers partial spellcasting? If so, I'll argue anything that has partial or better BAB is disqualified as a spellcaster, even if it has full caster progression, which means druids and clerics. ;P
Pious templar is a full BAB PrC that does not require any spellcasting to enter, it's casting is on par with that of a ranger or paladin, which are considered as melee class's.
I realize the smiley is an attempt at humor, but to what degree is hard to say.
No. Meyer said he didn't want to take anything with spellcasting levels to get Knowledge arcana or religion. I was just pointing out that he did take something with spellcasting levels. At 10th level, that single level of pious templar doesn't make his orc a spellcasters. So we're in agreement on that front.
If you HONESTLY think that my wis 8 character who picked up 1 level of pious templar is considered a spellcaster ... I don't know how to respond.
Pious Templar's spellcasting ability is on par with that of a ranger / paladin -- which are definitely allowed to be talked about in this discussion.
What about factotem, would that be a spellcaster? (or is its spell-like ability nonsense making it excluded from spellcasters).
Spellthief I would call a caster, as the majority of the class is built around spellcasting.
When people talk about spellcasters owning at 20th level ... do you honestly think that pious templar is one of the things that is included in that?
No. But you said you didn't want to take a spellcasting class, even if you couldn't cast the spells. Then you did take one. That's it. Even with the level of Pious Templar, I'd consider that class a non-caster the same way I would a 4th level ranger or paladin.
The example character on page 20 is listed as having the weapon focus bonus feat.
And the wording of the 1st level ability compared to the example character makes the intent known.
You do not gain
Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Focus (light mace), Weapon focus (Light pick), weapon focus (Spear), Weapon focus (Falchion) - 5 feats
You gain
Weapon focus (Scimitar, light mace, light pick, spear, falchion) - 1 feat
The was probably done so that warblades could not dip into swordsage and change certain of the weapon focuses to things like greatswords, armor spikes, etc ...
I can't imagine WOTC saying to themselves, lets make a PrC which encourages players to have warblade/crusader/swordsage levels (master of the nine), give them the ability to pick up weapon specialization (warblade can pick up fighter only feats) but require them to waste a feat on weapon focus when they get no benefit for it (this example is staying completely in the ToB + core feats).
And the sample characters for Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror) don't actually qualify for that PrC either.
I sent that question in along with the Fire Riposte one. I'm ok with whichever way the ruling ends up, so long as it's clear and applies evenly to all characters.
No. Meyer said he didn't want to take anything with spellcasting levels to get Knowledge arcana or religion. I was just pointing out that he did take something with spellcasting levels. At 10th level, that single level of pious templar doesn't make his orc a spellcasters. So we're in agreement on that front.
Ah. My apologies.
Comments:
False Life and Vampiric Touch both give temp hps. The new ones do not get added to the old ones.
I thought they'd stack, as they're from different sources. I'll check up on it later. Don't have time right now.
Ah well, I could always just use the Vampiric Touch a bit later, after the False Life hit point are gone, and use a healing potion to get back the real hit points.
What about the randomization method I used? Any comments on that? And the comment on a flaw with natural 20s in the percentage method?
that build can be even stronger @6th lvl when he gets 3rd lvl Spells(Fiery Burst does 3d6 damage,unlimited uses) and even more powerful abilities... @ 9th lvl he will have Divine Power also and @10 he has Polymorph(outsider forms) in addition to all the other spells he can cast and Fiery Burst 5d6,unlimited
:D
All wealth will be used to craft 14 level one pearl of powers and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5 on concentration checks), and to buy a belt of healing to heal when necessary (though healing as I ran it wasn't necessary).
I have issues with this for the following:
1: WBL is broken
2: Does not seem like an organic character
3: Uses XP.
However ... if no one else has an issue -- ignore this.
My home is far away, so all my sanctumed spells will be poor pathetic level 1 spells. Poor pathetic level one spells that, due to the wording of Pearl of Power, can be recalled with any of my 14 level one pearl of powers.
Unsure if this is legit, but it looks legit -- and more importantly, looks awesome.
No objections ...
The AC is (10+18-1+2) = 29
False Life is worth 10.5 hps.
Character has 4+2.5*4+5=19 hps
Vs Manticore: Restating. This is assumed to happen at night as it benefits the caster (his attacks are short range). Since there is only one opponent, there is no different between doing nothing, and holding until after the opponent goes.
Show
Round 1: Wizard wins init by 4
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 30% hit, fail)
Round 2
Wizard casts false life.
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 60% hit, one hits, 6.5 damage)
Round 3
Wizard regains one spell (1 pearl of power)
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 90% hit, misses)
Round 4:
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 120% hit, misses)
Round 5:
Wizard does nothing.
Manticore dives in and attacks the wizard (charge (+2 to hit)) hits 20%. (140% total).
Round 6:
Wizard 5' steps backwards (no longer threatened) casts orb of electricity (vs ac 9), hitting 80% of the time (+4 vs 9 (charged)) for 13.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (hitting 10% with claws, 5% with bite), (150% first claw, 165% afterwards) for 10 damage.
End of Round 6: Wizard: 18.5, Manticore 43.5
Round 7:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts false life (10.5)
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (190% missing).
End of Round 7: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 43.5
Round 8:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts power word pain (duration 10 rounds), dealing 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (215% missing)
End of round 8: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 40
Round 9:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts invisibility, manticore takes another 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (it knows which square you are in) (240%) (150% miss chance)
End of Round 9: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), manticore (36.5)
Round 10:
Wizard moves and regains false life (2 pearls of power), manticore takes 3.5 damage.
Manticore gives up (it is intelligent after all).
The next few rounds, wizard regains invisibility (3 pearls of power), lesser orb of electricity (4 pearls of power), power word pain (5 peals of power).
Round 1: Wizard wins init by 4
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 30% hit, fail)
Round 2
Wizard casts false life.
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 60% hit, one hits, 6.5 damage)
Round 3
Wizard regains one spell (1 pearl of power)
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 90% hit, misses)
Round 4:
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 120% hit, misses)
Round 5:
Wizard does nothing.
Manticore dives in and attacks the wizard (charge (+2 to hit)) hits 20%. (140% total).
Round 6:
Wizard 5' steps backwards (no longer threatened) casts orb of electricity (vs ac 9), hitting 80% of the time (+4 vs 9 (charged)) for 13.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (hitting 10% with claws, 5% with bite), (150% first claw, 165% afterwards) for 10 damage.
End of Round 6: Wizard: 18.5, Manticore 43.5
Round 7:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts false life (10.5)
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (190% missing).
End of Round 7: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 43.5
Round 8:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts power word pain (duration 10 rounds), dealing 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (215% missing)
End of round 8: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 40
Round 9:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts invisibility, manticore takes another 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (it knows which square you are in) (240%) (150% miss chance)
End of Round 9: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), manticore (36.5)
Round 10:
Wizard moves and regains false life (2 pearls of power), manticore takes 3.5 damage.
Manticore gives up (it is intelligent after all).
The next few rounds, wizard regains invisibility (3 pearls of power), lesser orb of electricity (4 pearls of power), power word pain (5 peals of power).
Originally Posted by Otto the Bugbear
No. Meyer said he didn't want to take anything with spellcasting levels to get Knowledge arcana or religion. I was just pointing out that he did take something with spellcasting levels. At 10th level, that single level of pious templar doesn't make his orc a spellcasters. So we're in agreement on that front.
Ah. My apologies.
Hah!!!
Pious Templar is the reason why I needed knowledge religion (prereq) ... so I did not take something with spellcasting levels to get the knowledges.
Buff routine
First consume some alchemical items to a good effect. Alchemical stuff is not necessarily needed, but who doesn't love them? Then Drink the following potions:
Fly.......................5 Min , Fly 60(good)
Hide from Undead...10 min
Mage Armor...........1 hour, +4 Armor
Protection From Energy.50 min, Resist Acid 10
, then Cast Alter self to a Dwarven Ancestor using alternative material component(duration = 120 minutes). Alter self gained by Arcane disciple. Alchemical Buffs will Boost Caster level for all Spells.... All Spells are now cast @ +2 Caster levels...
First consume some alchemical items to a good effect. Alchemical stuff is not necessarily needed, but who doesn't love them? Then Drink the following potions:
Fly.......................5 Min , Fly 60(good)
Hide from Undead...10 min
Mage Armor...........1 hour, +4 Armor
Protection From Energy.50 min, Resist Acid 10
, then Cast Alter self to a Dwarven Ancestor using alternative material component(duration = 120 minutes). Alter self gained by Arcane disciple. Alchemical Buffs will Boost Caster level for all Spells.... All Spells are now cast @ +2 Caster levels...
If anyone has a caster build that I have scored (posted results in first post) that you disagree with, please bring it to my attention. I might have made mistakes and missed things during the discussions.
If anyone else would like to score some of these builds, feel free.
Also, just to make sure ... the only remaining point of contention with my entry is round 2 manticore's actions. Whether it does the fly-by-attack or move-spikes?
:D
No, not at level 6.
Our level 5 characters taking on CR 6 challenges. If someone would like to set something quick up (I'd suggest Otto, if you can, you seem like a decent guy), I'll definitely run the numbers.
If people want, I'll whip up a CR 6 mini solo adventure and make sure to touch on all aspects, much like the previous ones.
Show
Round 1:
Manticore: Snaps it's tail spikes at me. AC 23, attack +8: Roll to hit: 15, chance = 25%. 123 miss, 4 hits, 56 miss.
Damage: 1d8+2 = negated.
I charge: +6, roll to hit = 11, chance = 45%. I miss. Getting a little ahead of yourself, it is in the air. But it cannot hurt you with tail spikes, so eventually this will be true
Round 2:
AC 21: Manticore: 2 claws (2d4+5) at +10, bite at +8. Claws = 45% chance, bite = 35% chance. We'll assume both claws hit.
Claw damage: average = 10. We'll assume one rolls higher (12) and one rolls lower (8)
Damage taken = 2
Divine Retribution: Two attacks: +9 and +4. One hits, dealing 2d6+6 = 13 damage. Divine retributioin only works when you the attack deals damage. DR negating means no damage.
Cleric Attack: Another miss
Round 3:
AC 23: Manticore: 2 claws, 1 bite. Assume both claws hit.
Assume one rolls high: 3 damage (they both roll 4)
Divine Retribution: Both attacks hit: 26 damage (Total 39)
Round 4:
AC 23: Manticore crits on a claw, dealing 20 (DR 10) = 10 damage (Taken 15)
1 divine retribution hits = 42 damage in total
Cleric hits = 50 damage in total
Round 5: Manticore crits again. Taken 25 damage
1 divine retribution hits (60% and 35% chance respectively, odds are, one will) Deal 63 damage.
Manticore dead. Damage taken: 25 (Gave the Manticore 2 crits in 18 attack rolls on 19-20 crit range. Gave me 0 crits on 12 attack rolls (20 only)
Damage taken: 25
3 charges of lesser vigor, and of course, no worries about buffs.
just a quick note ..... she will bring the Warbeast Magebred Riding Dog as a Scout..... he is trained to retreat when confronted... unless his assistance is needed... he is only there to find threats(but is very capable of combat himself)... the Warbeast magebred Light Warhorse waits outside the cave
:D
Please update your buff post with these tactics. I have linked the first page to both the character and your post-buff character.
Hello, first post here.
This is a quite standard Human Druid with a Fleshraker companion. I assume that natural bond can offset the -3 Penality to my druid level for the fleshraker.
Also, I paid for and applied the Warbeast template to it. I also bought Mithril Chain Shirt Barding for both of us.
That said, we head into the cave, buffed and ready to go. These are our stat blocks:
Your character as posted has spent 8625 gold. If you increase the cost of the mithril barding to 1200 each, you have spent 8825. Warbeast costs 100 gp + 75/hd = 100+525 = 625 (overspent)
According to the version of warbeast that I have, it says that it must be reared and then trained. I seriously doubt that this means that you can have one of these as an animal companion (unless you can call a warbeast templated version?). So, this means that it isn't a warbeast.
I would rule that natural bond could not offset the penalty. Per druid handbook this is something that you need to talk to your DM about, and you know that means that the ruling is not remotely cut-and-dry. (Natural bond increases "Effective Druid level" to max of character level, alternate animal companions apply a negative modifier to druid level).
How is the druid wearing armor? Can fleshrakers put it on themselves (same with other stuff (healing belt)).
I posted the manticore encounter already ... PC either lost (could not defeat it) or their spells fell off (manticore waited) which affected future encounters. I don't remember the poster changing anything -- so until/unless ... Druid post has to be considered not winning this. And I cannot examine further until the new tactics are posted.
Your character as posted has spent 8625 gold. If you increase the cost of the mithril barding to 1200 each, you have spent 8825. Warbeast costs 100 gp + 75/hd = 100+525 = 625 (overspent)
According to the version of warbeast that I have, it says that it must be reared and then trained. I seriously doubt that this means that you can have one of these as an animal companion (unless you can call a warbeast templated version?). So, this means that it isn't a warbeast.
I would rule that natural bond could not offset the penalty. Per druid handbook this is something that you need to talk to your DM about, and you know that means that the ruling is not remotely cut-and-dry. (Natural bond increases "Effective Druid level" to max of character level, alternate animal companions apply a negative modifier to druid level).
How is the druid wearing armor? Can fleshrakers put it on themselves (same with other stuff (healing belt)).
I posted the manticore encounter already ... PC either lost (could not defeat it) or their spells fell off (manticore waited) which affected future encounters. I don't remember the poster changing anything -- so until/unless ... Druid post has to be considered not winning this.
Looks to me like the warbeast is applicable. It must be reared for 1 year (you can have your fleshraker companion for a year) and then trained for 2 months. Nothing says you can't have gotten a young fleshraker as your companion.
Looks to me like the warbeast is applicable. It must be reared for 1 year (you can have your fleshraker companion for a year) and then trained for 2 months. Nothing says you can't have gotten a young fleshraker as your companion.
Do we know for sure if ACs can be templated at all or not? I have heard it had been ruled an AC could not be magebreed, but I cannot remember the details or if the same reasoning could be used with warbeast or not.
Do we know for sure if ACs can be templated at all or not? I have heard it had been ruled an AC could not be magebreed, but I cannot remember the details or if the same reasoning could be used with warbeast or not.
Those are very different. One is applied, the other is inherited.
Do we know for sure if ACs can be templated at all or not? I have heard it had been ruled an AC could not be magebreed, but I cannot remember the details or if the same reasoning could be used with warbeast or not.
I seriously doubt it. Otherwise you end up with the 'I put 14 templates on my riding dog' syndrome.
You can only use a least crystal (MW longbow).
I can only find "Potent Enchantment" via a google search in Dragon Magazine 325. This is not a WOTC book so is not legal. This build relies on it to make the snake and manticore sleep. Let me know if I am incorrect, I will continue to examine as if I am. However, you do not need to kill the manticore at the end, just share the treasure with it.
This used metagaming (changing equipment to increase success chance).
However ...
Alright, I've taken suggestions into account and made him a grey elf. He's still an enchanter though. I accidentally gave the previous version thousands of gold less than he should have, so this version fixes that.Show
Here is a link to the character - Finklebottom:
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=62782
Finklebottom is an enchanter, who also dabbles in illusion and necromancy. He has always been fascinated with the mind, and seeks to unlock its secrets. He sees the the study of enchantment as the means to do this. Illusion also interested Finklebottom as, to him, it entails tricking the mind into perceiving unreality - this offers insight into how the mind functions. Finklebottom is painfully aware of the mindless monstrosities which walk the world, constructs, undead, and the like. He is interested in these beings because, although they lack a 'mind' in the normal sense of the world they are still sentient (at least some of the undead are). He seeks to understand this seeming contradiction. He also studies them to better understand their weaknesses, as they are invulnerable to his most potent spells.
Onto strategy!!
Here is what I'm thinking:
Prepared Spells:
0) Daze, Prestidigitation, Open/Close, Ghost Sound, Detect Magic
1) Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Hypnotism, Sleep, Mage Armor, Silent Image
2) Blinding Color Surge, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Yoke of Mercy, Command Undead
3) Suggestion, Shivering Touch, Deep Slumber
Finklebottom casts mage armor before the adventure, giving him +4 to AC. His AC is now 16. Not that it matters. If he gets hit he's pretty much dead.
NOTE The alternate strategy has a more realistic equipment loadout, is a more realistic play-style for this type of character, AND it performs better overall on post-analysis. So I recommend using that, where applicable. I don't want to take the time to retype everything. For analysis, please use the alternate strategy where applicable.
Looks to me like the warbeast is applicable. It must be reared for 1 year (you can have your fleshraker companion for a year) and then trained for 2 months. Nothing says you can't have gotten a young fleshraker as your companion.
Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
Completely typical for its kind. Not "Of the age you specify"
However, if this works (i.e. you can get a young one) ... then part of this druid's overpoweredness results directly from taking 14 months off to train.
If people want, I'll whip up a CR 6 mini solo adventure and make sure to touch on all aspects, much like the previous ones.
If you do, please do "Box text" of pre-knowledge characters have. Then another "Box text" of pre-knowledge the characters can learn prior to entering. This will enable non-spontaneous spellcasters to change up their spell list.
When you say CR6, do you mean "same characters as were used in CR5" or do you mean "Characters from CR5 advanced to CR6"
I seriously doubt it. Otherwise you end up with the 'I put 14 templates on my riding dog' syndrome.
The fact the AC needs to be an animal seriously limits the templates that it can receive, though. Most templates turn the animals into magical beasts or something weirder.
And the few that not sometimes run into problems like the rule that "a creature with more than 2 of intelligence can't be an animal" (but without specifying what happen to an animal when it receives the template, which means it jumps straight out of the rules and into limboland).
If the manticore is dead for the dragon, Finklebottom can coup de grace it with his bow. Thats 12 damage (average) on a crit, for a DC 22 fort save. Thats assuming you stuck with the shivering touch strategy for your analysis. If you used the non-shivering touch strategy, then the manticore is still not really needed, though it speeds up combat a lot with its spines.
If you do, please do "Box text" of pre-knowledge characters have. Then another "Box text" of pre-knowledge the characters can learn prior to entering. This will enable non-spontaneous spellcasters to change up their spell list.
When you say CR6, do you mean "same characters as were used in CR5" or do you mean "Characters from CR5 advanced to CR6"
I'll do a much more detailed layout, and provide foreknowledge for the next challenge. Is the final monster being a dragon again out of the question? The higher the CR moves, the more out of whack dragon CRs become. IMO.
I thought the request was for the same characters -- the level 5 builds -- to shine at the next CR. They've been through CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5, and Ikeren mentioned my name. I hadn't considered it prior to that, but, heck, why not.
The fact the AC needs to be an animal seriously limits the templates that it can receive, though. Most templates turn the animals into magical beasts or something weirder.
And the few that not sometimes run into problems like the rule that "a creature with more than 2 of intelligence can't be an animal" (but without specifying what happen to an animal when it receives the template, which means it jumps straight out of the rules and into limboland).
Sure, animal limits it. I was going for exaggeration to show why I think allowing templates on an animal companion is a no-no.
Please update your buff post with these tactics. I have linked the first page to both the character and your post-buff character.
I'm on it. I update buffed stats and those tactics to my post.
I thought Dragon material was legal (since its WotC sanctioned and we're using alternate rules (flaws)).
Nope. It is not a WOTC book, Unearthed Arcana is a WOTC book.
Part of this is that there is a metric ton of Dragon Magazines out there, and I don't have access to any 3.5 ones. Lots of people claim that there are some very unbalanced things out there, and not being WOTC, there will never be errata, a faq, or a custserv answer for ambiguity.
However, notice, I still ran your build through it.
If you have no objections to my analysis ... update your post for the dragon encounter, PM me, and I will re-examine that last one. Did you have objections to the other things? Like you dying?
I'll do a much more detailed layout, and provide foreknowledge for the next challenge. Is the final monster being a dragon again out of the question? The higher the CR moves, the more out of whack dragon CRs become. IMO.
I thought the request was for the same characters -- the level 5 builds -- to shine at the next CR. They've been through CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5, and Ikeren mentioned my name. I hadn't considered it prior to that, but, heck, why not.
Note: the only build that has been through the CR5 as well as the CR2,3,4 was mine. Most of the AlterSelf cheese builds are unable to bypass the locust swarm. The ooze hurts a lot for most builds as well.
Non-alterself builds have issues with the choker (no spells possible to be cast).
I would like to see a different CR5 mini-adventure, using different monsters (some spellcasters, etc) to see how versatile each build is before we move up the encounter levels any.
For instance, CQF defeats the grapples ... if there are no grapples, then CQF, Immediated teleport, blink, etc are not useful.
Command Undead is only effective if there is undead.
What happens if there is a spellcaster who attempts a dispel magic?
In short, think up some of the "anti-caster" and "anti-melee" tactics mentioned in posts, and see what happens. This includes things to toss will saves versus noncasters.
There are 3 noncasters builds. Two of them have been examined and are currently listed as winning all fights (head nod to possible win method for manticore). One has not been examined (not complete, but looks like it will lose to more than 1).
There are 12 caster builds. 9 lost to at least one. 3 are unexamined. At least one (or more) are waiting to be re-examined.
If anyone disagrees with these findings, reply or PM me.
I would like to see a different CR5 mini-adventure, using different monsters (some spellcasters, etc) to see how versatile each build is before we move up the encounter levels any.
No better test to see who has metagamed with their spells/items selection, honestly.
But I think my rogue UMD-abuser/PAO-abuser will easily trample over any and all but the most optimized anti-UMD encounters out there within a reasonable CR margin.
No better test to see who has metagamed with their spells/items selection, honestly.
But I think my rogue UMD-abuser/PAO-abuser will easily trample over any and all but the most optimized anti-UMD encounters out there within a reasonable CR margin.
That's exactly how goods spells are.
That's exactly how goods spells are.
Yes. Quite amazing a non-spellcaster can use them so well and so easily, ain't it? :D
Nope. It is not a WOTC book, Unearthed Arcana is a WOTC book.
Part of this is that there is a metric ton of Dragon Magazines out there, and I don't have access to any 3.5 ones. Lots of people claim that there are some very unbalanced things out there, and not being WOTC, there will never be errata, a faq, or a custserv answer for ambiguity.
However, notice, I still ran your build through it.
If you have no objections to my analysis ... update your post for the dragon encounter, PM me, and I will re-examine that last one. Did you have objections to the other things? Like you dying?
Well, without potent enchantment he will die to the snake (I mean, he can have the manticore fight it instead, then have the wraith fight the rug and the dragon).
I could take it out and tweak the strategy to reflect that, but it still wouldn't get over the problem of probability not working out in the long run.
That said, I think he's still a pretty cool and elegant character, especially since he's making use of a school of magic generally regarded as sub-par (and against not a single humanoid, to boot).
I'll just revisit and revise (take out Dragon stuff) him whenever the CR 6 encounter goes up.
Yes. Quite amazing a non-spellcaster can use them so well and so easily, ain't it? :D
A non-spellcaster wouldn't be able to use enchantment spells/effects very well - part of the reason I tried to make a good enchanter build. ^^
A non-spellcaster wouldn't be able to use enchantment spells/effects very well - part of the reason I tried to make a good enchanter build. ^^
That is correct. One of the things real spellcasters can do it using attack spells with high DC numbers which neuter or or outright kill the enemies.
Yet few are trying that (kudos to you for going that way). What I see is "oh, I buff to the gills and win".
But anyone can do that, and generally from a stronger base class than most casters.
That is correct. One of the things real spellcasters can do it using attack spells with high DC numbers which neuter or or outright kill the enemies.
Yet few are trying that (kudos to you for going that way). What I see is "oh, I buff to the gill and win".
But anyone can do that, and generally from a stronger base class than most casters.
Buffing is more fun though...
Show
Tim the enchanter:
Fire elf evoker
Wizard 5
Specialist, evocation, focused specialist, energy affinity: fire,
Lost: Enchantments, necromancy, transmutations.
Stats: elite array
Stre: 10
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13 (11)
Inte: 15 (18/20)
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (6)
Items: 4 rubies from the elemental plane of fire (4400), Headband of intelligence +2 (4400) 3 bullseye lamps, (36) a few blankets (1) flint and steel (1) master crafted crossbow (335) 60 bolts (6) spell book (100), knife---- 8881 total. Rest into food and other essentials.
Feats:
Flaw: fell drain
Flaw: metamagic school focus
Level 1: entangling spell
Wizard 1: improved initiative
Level 3: Fiery burst.
Level 5: Clerical domain power substitution power, celerity domain.
Traits:
Spell gifted, aggressive.
Flaws:
Non-combatant, weak willed.
Initiative: +9
Attack: +2/+5/+2.
Saves, 3, 5, 3.
Spells:
0- 0: 5 ray of frost
1: 4 magic missiles, 1 mage armour, 1 burning hands, 1 unseen servant (doing the same thing as my last unseen servant, except always 40 away, and not really hiding.)
2: 2 scorching ray, 1 fell drain burning hands. 1 darkvision,1 glitterdust
3: 2 fireball, 1 entangling scorching ray, 1 sleet storm.
These are all the spells I know, as this test does nothing to test the assertion that wizards are versatile. I will therefore assume that being so is unnecessary.
Pre game strategy. Unseen servant with a blanket and a lamp is ahead of me by 40 feet at all times. I walk behind with dark vision, mage armour, and shield once I get near the cave (but before I see the manticore.) He points his lamp at anything I tell him to, and walks along ahead of me. Darkvision is also cast, though generally won’t be needed.
Fire elf evoker
Wizard 5
Specialist, evocation, focused specialist, energy affinity: fire,
Lost: Enchantments, necromancy, transmutations.
Stats: elite array
Stre: 10
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13 (11)
Inte: 15 (18/20)
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (6)
Items: 4 rubies from the elemental plane of fire (4400), Headband of intelligence +2 (4400) 3 bullseye lamps, (36) a few blankets (1) flint and steel (1) master crafted crossbow (335) 60 bolts (6) spell book (100), knife---- 8881 total. Rest into food and other essentials.
Feats:
Flaw: fell drain
Flaw: metamagic school focus
Level 1: entangling spell
Wizard 1: improved initiative
Level 3: Fiery burst.
Level 5: Clerical domain power substitution power, celerity domain.
Traits:
Spell gifted, aggressive.
Flaws:
Non-combatant, weak willed.
Initiative: +9
Attack: +2/+5/+2.
Saves, 3, 5, 3.
Spells:
0- 0: 5 ray of frost
1: 4 magic missiles, 1 mage armour, 1 burning hands, 1 unseen servant (doing the same thing as my last unseen servant, except always 40 away, and not really hiding.)
2: 2 scorching ray, 1 fell drain burning hands. 1 darkvision,1 glitterdust
3: 2 fireball, 1 entangling scorching ray, 1 sleet storm.
These are all the spells I know, as this test does nothing to test the assertion that wizards are versatile. I will therefore assume that being so is unnecessary.
Pre game strategy. Unseen servant with a blanket and a lamp is ahead of me by 40 feet at all times. I walk behind with dark vision, mage armour, and shield once I get near the cave (but before I see the manticore.) He points his lamp at anything I tell him to, and walks along ahead of me. Darkvision is also cast, though generally won’t be needed.
Yes. Quite amazing a non-spellcaster can use them so well and so easily, ain't it? :D
I think it's only fair they can mimic spellcasting since casters can mimic melee...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14469781&postcount=724
Grapple checks are not attacks. Divine retribution does not activate.
Once you are grappled it goes for the pin. You are crushed to death as you cannot attack it when you are pinned.
Where do you get this?
Group: Melee attacks.
Subset: Special Melee attacks.
Specific: Grapple attacks.
Specific: Crush attacks.
There are two options for the main group. Melee and ranged. Clearly, these are melee attacks. If someone punches you in the nose and then wraps his arms around you, trying to crush you, would you say "Ah, that's not melee. He's just trying to crush my ribs." ?
Find the rules where it says "A grapple attack is not a melee attack." Until then, I've succeeded. The same for your concerns with the snake.
Let me find you some counter examples:
Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack.
Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack).
So, a grapple, which involves numerous attack rolls, your base attack, and is referred to as a special attack, dealing unarmed damage, and involving attacking your opponent, is not an attack?
Wow...now I think I understand why casters are so bad at killing stuff. I certainly hope they release things that make casters more powerful at lower levels to help balance this out!
Oh. And please look up the spells and rules you are referencing.
I don't see a magic weapon so you have a 0% chance of hurting the wraith. Your only help is your Divine Retaliation.
I don't know if the wraith's natural attacks count as evil for the purpose of bypassing your DR/evil, if not, then the wraith cannot damage you, only drain your con, killing you.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm
A nightmare’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Living creatures hit by a wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a...
Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).
While this spell is in effect...In addition, if you are a dwarf or goliath under the effects of this spell...
And thus, it is clear, this cleric can defeat the challenge more cost effectively than your "Fighterish" build.
Manticore
The villagers have told Finklebottom that there is something evil in the hills on the way to the cave, or some such thing. So, he is having his hummingbird familiar scout a mile ahead of him. The hummingbird is too tiny to be a meal, and very innocuous, so chances are that the manticore will ignore it, especially because it will predictably run away when it chances upon the monster. Empathic Link will let Finklebottom know that the hummingbird has found the a large flying monster.
Once Finklebottom gets closer to the position, he will do two things: First he will drink a potion of fly. Then he will drink a potion of invisibility. His hummingbird will lead him within sight of the manticore, before flying away. Finklebottom will then fly up to where the manticore is (I read somewhere that it will start out flying). No move silently checks should be necessary since Finklebottom is flying, I think. Upon seeing the Manticore Finklebottom makes a Knowledge (Arcana) check. If we take 10, the result is a 22, which should be enough to tell him that the manticore is lawful evil, intelligent, and speaks common. Now, even if Finklebottom alerts the manticore to his presence and combat starts, his initiative bonus of +7 (the hummingbird is out of arm's reach, so no extra +4) handily beats the manticore's +2.
Once within range of Suggestion (35 ft) he casts it on the Manticore, suggesting that it and him as his guard go and loot the treasure in the cave together, splitting it 50/50 (the manticore is a lawful creature, so that split should be OK with it. In addition it is intelligent enough to know that it being a guard type would be the sensible way to go about getting treasure, as Finklebottom is delicate). The DC for this suggestion is 19, and the manticore's will save is +3, so the Manticore only saves on a roll of 16 or better (75% success chance). I think it is safe to assume that the manticore fails the save.
Resources used:
1 3rd level spell
1 Fly Potion
1 Invisibility Potion
Um ... why? (is this a Mystery Man reference?)
Yes.. yes it is... Youre throwing a tantrum man, read what you wrote
barbarians rage and become reckless, attacking without fear, you channeled Ben Stiller and threw yourself to the ground and had a good tantrum.
Also, now that Ive read the thread some more, this is a really impressive trolling, youve gotten dozens of people involved spending huge amounts of time, all to prove that casters are/arent overpowered. At low level. Solo. Against 5 arbitrary challenges way harder than they need to be to gain xp. At level 5 you could farm cr1's to level up.
Anyone with a wis/int over 12 will gather allies and level up with a group, its the basis of a game, after all. And leveling to 7 usually takes like 3 weeks max out of every campaign Ive played in, its not 1/3 of the game, its more like 1/10. Fights at that level just dont take long to run.
So again gratz, impressive trolling. Your cohorts are even claiming that casters cant use spells to be overpowered, because of UMD. Good stuff.
stuff
If I remember correctly, you somehow negated 2 out of 3 con drains, I'm not sure how. I hope it wasn't through your DR, as you've already proven that doesn't help...
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
If I remember correctly, you somehow negated 2 out of 3 con drains, I'm not sure how. I hope it wasn't through your DR, as you've already proven that doesn't help...
Fortitude Saves?
My evoker, the weakest of mages.ShowHuman wizard 5
Specialist evoker, energy affinity fire, fire domain
Focused specialist evoker. Lost enchantments, illusions, necromancy.
Tim the enchanter.
Flaw metamagic school focus
Flaw entangling spell
Level1 fell drain
Human: Easy metamagic (entangling spell)
Wizard1 scribe scroll
Level 3 easy metamagic (fell drain)
Level 5 fiery burst
Traits: Aggressive
Spellgifted.
Elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Stre: 10
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13
Inte: 15 (16) level 4 increase.
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Spell prepared
0: 5 ray of frost, 1 flare
1: 3 magic missiles, 1 magic weapon, 1 mage armour, 1 shield, 1 burning hands, 1 unseen servant (doing the same thing as my last unseen servant, except always 40 away, and not really hiding.)
2: 4 scorching ray, 1 darkvision
3: 3 fireball, 1 heart of water
All evocations except magic missile have fell drain and entangling spell metamagics on them. Magic weapon cast on crossbow. Mage armour and shield cast on me.
Initiative: +5
HP=19
AC=22, touch=13, flat footed=19.
Saves
Fort: 3, Ref:5, Will, 5
Equipment: Gloves of dexterity +2, (4000) 2 pearls of power 1, toad familiar (100), light crossbow (335) 60 bolts (6), 6 potions of cure light (300), ring of deflection +1 (2000) knife (2), spell book (100)
attack
Melee: 2, range 5(6), grapple (2)
Skills:
Concentrate capped.
Knowledge arcana capped.
Tumble capped.
Search capped.
Rest in spot.
Fortitude Saves?
you said negated, not "made your save".
Meyers, I did an update here, upon realizing there are errors with my original account (I used a less advatageous system, and I didn't use an alignment favoured weapon, that people seemed to dislike for some reason. Without rules sourcing, I am still justified to do so, but to make my victory even more obvious, I reduced it from a 2d6 to a 1d8 weapon.)
If you check the spell, it does 1d8 damage no matter what shape it takes. The only thing the shape determines is its threat range and critical multiplier.
Tshern updated the post with the adjusted tactics.... lets get it on:evillaugh 
:D
If you check the spell, it does 1d8 damage no matter what shape it takes. The only thing the shape determines is its threat range and critical multiplier.
...and if you knew what spell I was using...spiritual weapon has a variable range, I couldn't be persisting it...
Divine Retaliation... PHB 2, Pg 110
you said negated, not "made your save".
The save is "Fortitude Negates." Looking for semantics of wording is kinda...odd.
I think I can do the maths tomorrow. Well, due to timezone differences, I'd say some 15-16 from now. Before that, Meyer, have a bite and shoot some critique before Alix hits the gauntlet.
Meyers, I did an update here, upon realizing there are errors with my original account (I used a less advatageous system, and I didn't use an alignment favoured weapon, that people seemed to dislike for some reason. Without rules sourcing, I am still justified to do so, but to make my victory even more obvious, I reduced it from a 2d6 to a 1d8 weapon.)
Lets look at Divine Retribution shall we:
This spell creates a divine weapon that mimics your diety's favorite weapon. Any time you are struck for damage with a melee attack, this weapon stikes your foe.
The way I see it, your choices are
1) You cannot use this spell as you have no diety, or
2) You use the alignment weapon listed under Spiritual Weapon (which deals 1d8)
So, the reason people disliked it is that what you were using has no basis in the rules.
Lets look at the next aspect of the spell:
This spell creates a divine weapon that mimics your diety's favorite weapon. Any time you are struck for damage with a melee attack, this weapon stikes your foe.
This part of the spell means that if the attack does not bypass your DR, then it does not activate.
And the last aspect of the spell:
This spell creates a divine weapon that mimics your diety's favorite weapon. Any time you are struck for damage with a melee attack, this weapon stikes your foe.
So lets look at what you posted and examine it.
Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Starting a grapple:
Melee attack -- yes
Damage -- none yet. This means that the spell does not trigger.
If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you succeed with the grapple check (which is NOT a melee attack, that occurred earlier), then you deal damage to the target.
Melee attack -- no. This means that the spell does not trigger.
Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
If they take the place of an attack, they might not be an attack, for instance, moving the grapple is not an attack.
Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack.
Opposed grapple check is said here to not be an attack, so the spell cannot trigger.
Where do you get this?
Group: Melee attacks.
Subset: Special Melee attacks.
Specific: Grapple attacks.
Specific: Crush attacks.
My SRD does not say Grapple Attacks, mine says Grapple checks. Is yours different?
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
In place of an attack -- in other words, a grapple check is not an attack. STARTING the grapple is a melee attack that rarely causes damage.
So, a grapple, which involves numerous attack rolls, your base attack, and is referred to as a special attack, dealing unarmed damage, and involving attacking your opponent, is not an attack?
Starting a grapple is a melee attack which rarely does damage (a fire elemental or some other creature that causes damage by bodily contact would cause damage by the act of initiating a grapple).
A grapple check, as shown above, is not a melee attack.
As far as DR vs the Wraith ... ok, so if this means that the wraith can damage you, then you go by the scenario I outlines, where your divine retaliation kills it after you take 7 con drain.
The wraith's attacks are not evil aligned. Your quotes show that as you see how the nightmare's does count, but the wraith's do not count.
Stone Fist is not cast targetting the Wraith. The spell in no way shape or form interacts with the wraith. The results of the spell (your fists) interact with the wraith, but your firsts are not magical (they have no enhancement bonus).
And thus, it is clear, this cleric can defeat the challenge more cost effectively than your "Fighterish" build.
I used 750 gp of expendable resources. 700 of which was the potion of flight.
Scoring however (as far as I am concerned) starts with number of encounters surpassed. If/when we have ties, then it will be time to start talking about resources (if needed). At this time, there are no ties, however some people have posted changes to their character/tactics, and some have not been checked, so we might have a caster who defeats all encounters.
I am sorry that you disagree with the way I am interpretting this, but as you can see from the above posts, a grapple check is not an attack.
By the way, you are a cleric, why don't you try to use "Rebuke Undead" by my count, you should have one attempt remaining, if your charisma is high enough, it just might work?
Not that it matters much, but you didn't pick any flaws, just gained the benifit of 2.
Yeah, I knew it wouldn't matter really, so I never bothered. I'd go with non-combatant and weak will, probably.
How much is that "rest" in spot (seems like 2 points, IE 1 rank)
Yup.
So, it can see an invisible, shapeless, unseen servant, but it can't see you? with a torch? less then 40ft away? doesn't seem very likely. And if you've got a torch, how does he not see you over the invisible thing? and why would he keep attacking the shapeless invisable form over you, with the torch thats shooting him with fiery blasts? and torch light, even with low light vision, is no better then darkvision (you'd need a latern to reach very far away, but since unseen servant needs to stay within 25ft+5/2 levels of you, the manticore will likely see you when you see it. also note, torchlight gives you 30ft (with low light) of clear illumination, then 30 more ft (with low light) of shadowy illumination (20% miss chance)
It's an invisible, shapeless unseen servant holding a torch, and with a blanket over it. I do this in game sometimes, if I need a distraction. He only can see and attack me if he dive bombs my unseen servant after he shoots it. If he decides he can ignore it, I can move in with a readied attack. I also have darkvision active out to 60, so don't worry about the cover (unless I'm confusing my builds here.) To note, I am not carrying a torch.
No scent to the unseen servant. no form, not visible. There is no reason the snake would even notice it, let alone attack it. Whether it even prevents charges or not is questionable.
Unseen servant with a smelly old blanket over it, however. With a smoky torch. I would agree that saying that it can be in the way of a charge is questionable, however.
After moving 90ft away, you can no longer see the snake.
Hence why it's a readied action, and not done immediately.
Readied actions can't be traded out for a crossbow hit if the trigger doesn't occur.
Meant that as, if he does not move any closer, as far as I can tell, my next round I shoot at it (though with a miss chance.) Meaning if it does nothing, I eventually start hitting it with a crossbow.
Your fiery blast will kill your unseen servant, unless your going to let it go beyond the range of the spell (or give it a command to come to your side)
Depends on how abusive I am with not letting the blast radius hit it. It's a very small burst.
Wrath seems to be missing a lot. I'm not sure how you figured you passed your save. in fact, I'm not sure how your doing any of your math. seems your accumulating both your attacks and theirs on the same percentages, which equates to a you get the miss's, I'll take the hits, kind of deal.
I'm adding the percent chance that they miss (over 65% miss chance) to my normal tally. When they are under that threshhold, they hit me, and when they are over, they miss. So it may seem that way, but it's not. Remember, my shield and armour saves apply against incorporeal creatures.
Having just enough MM's again seems convenient, considering the option for burning hands would be a superior 1st level choice (for this character), you'd think you'd at least have an equal number of each.
I actually need more MM. I have little that can deal with things that are immune to fire (please note the heavy dependance on my fire spells doing a lot), and little that deals with incorporeals. I'm considering dumping something and getting a lv1 wand of them, but am not sure as to what.
not sure if you have the room to kite, or if the rug will even chase you.
If it doesn't chase me, I can just shoot it with my crossbow, and it will die eventually.
With only a 2 in spot, you assume to easily that you see the dragon when he sees you (given his advanced warning (that you said he'd have, due to your blasts)).
I don't recall it hiding, meaning that it is in plain view, unless you have a reason to think it should hide. I can assume that it does when I redo this last fight.
Round 1 it can ready to breath on you if you get in range, which you do when you try to scorching ray it. Additionally, Entangling spell applies the entangled condition, not the entangled spell. the dragon can still move and act, It's just at a minus to hit, dex and half speed (still more then enough to catch you and breath weapon you).
Seems it can move a good clip, even with that. I do suppose that it means it can double move, put me in its threat range, then breathe the next turn, but I'm fairly certain I still end up ahead of it. I'll redo those numbers for you. However, I don't ever get in range for it to breath on me to use scorching ray. When I'm 80 feet away, I can see it due to low light conditions from the torch my unseen servant is carrying. If it readied an action to spit at me, he's too far.
My evoker, the weakest of mages.ShowHuman wizard 5
Specialist evoker, energy affinity fire, fire domain
Focused specialist evoker. Lost enchantments, illusions, necromancy.
Tim the enchanter.
Flaw metamagic school focus
Flaw entangling spell
Level1 fell drain
Human: Easy metamagic (entangling spell)
Wizard1 scribe scroll
Level 3 easy metamagic (fell drain)
Level 5 fiery burst
Traits: Aggressive
Spellgifted.
Elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Stre: 10
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13
Inte: 15 (16) level 4 increase.
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Spell prepared
0: 5 ray of frost, 1 flare
1: 3 magic missiles, 1 magic weapon, 1 mage armour, 1 shield, 1 burning hands, 1 unseen servant (doing the same thing as my last unseen servant, except always 40 away, and not really hiding.)
2: 4 scorching ray, 1 darkvision
3: 3 fireball, 1 heart of water
All evocations except magic missile have fell drain and entangling spell metamagics on them. Magic weapon cast on crossbow. Mage armour and shield cast on me.
Initiative: +5
HP=19
AC=22, touch=13, flat footed=19.
Saves
Fort: 3, Ref:5, Will, 5
Equipment: Gloves of dexterity +2, (4000) 2 pearls of power 1, toad familiar (100), light crossbow (335) 60 bolts (6), 6 potions of cure light (300), ring of deflection +1 (2000) knife (2), spell book (100)
attack
Melee: 2, range 5(6), grapple (2)
Skills:
Concentrate capped.
Knowledge arcana capped.
Tumble capped.
Search capped.
Rest in spot.
Also, I can switch off easy metamagic, and lose that versatility, but instead gain arcane thesis for both scorching ray and for fireball, making the end result, basically the same.
Here's another jab at the dungeon as promised already a couple of pages ago. For those who don't know, this my and carnivore's attempt to display some caster power in an alternate way. I'll provide more extensive math on the encounters later on. Questions and comments can be directed to both of us.
Alix the FieryGeneral information
Additional notes can be given in brackets in case I think refering to a source or an explanation is needed.
Race: Female Neraph
Class: Warmage 5
Hitpoints:5d6+15=37
Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (13+1 from levels)
Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane disciple (Transformation), Dragonic aura (vigor), Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Skills: Concentration 9, Spellcraft 12, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Knowledge (religion) 6
AB: 2
AC: 17 Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 16
Saves: Fort: 3 Refl: 2 Will: 3
Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Guiding light, Spell Compendium)
Caster level: 4 for most of the things, but 9 for fire evocation.
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
The current tally:
Manticore: Win
Snake: Loss
Wraith: Win
Rug: Loss
Dragon: Win
Not only does the fighter win 3/5 of the fights, but he does so with a minimal expenditure of single-use items. Two wins feature no single use items, and the fighter only really needed a Protection from Acid against the dragon. The fights that he loses are against the uber-grapplers, where I have found no affordable nor rules-based counter to the creature's basic tactic.
Considering that this guy is doing as well as some "optimized" casters, and losing against the snake and the rug for the exact same reasons that the casters lose, he's doing far better than I thought that he would.
If I wanted to metagame, Joe would buy a few mules and use his animal handling to train them. He would then send them first into rooms, let them get attacked, and then respond. The snake would eat the first mule, and being sated with a good meal, would crawl off to sleep off that big meal. The next mule would survive the wraith, as the wraith would attack the fighter, but would die by the rug. The fighter could then retreat, collect and toss firewood into the rug room until he could burn out the rug. Yes, that's cheap, but no more so than some cheapness already posted.
Incidentally, I'm still not really sure how initiative works or whether the snake or rug will get a surprise round. If they do, I'll go ahead and admit that my character is probably hosed.
vs your character,
Snake: Worst case for you, you roll for initiative and it wins, just like what you posted. Best case for you, you are never in melee range of it.
Rug: It gets a surprise round, but your +3 init beats it, so it works like what you said.
Ok .... first two readings. I thought you had won. However ...
Tactics:Manticore
Slick has a Hide of +21 and Move Silently of +23 against the Manticore's Spot of +9 and Listen of +5. The Manticore has a Hide of -2 and Move Silently of +2 against Slick's Spot and Listen of +3. Furthermore, since it's night, the Manticore shouldnt' be able to see him; Slick has no light source, it's too dark for Low-Light Vision to be of any use, and the Ring of the Darkhidden makes him invisible to Darkvision (effectively bumping his Hide up to +41, as long as Slick isn't going faster than a speed of 25, which he won't presuming he has ample time).
Assuming the Manticore somehow hears Slick (which shouldn't be possible) and heads in his general direction, the Darkstalker feat still stops the Manticore from pinpointing him with Scent. Slick's land speed is as fast as the Manticore's Fly speed and faster than the Manticore's land speed. If the Manticore gets close enough, use Winter's Blast and then move to a different space. The Manticore will eventually either drop, or retreat from an opponent he cannot detect and who will eventually defeat him. (And if Slick really wants to, he can cast Fly and go after it anyway.)
If the Manticore bumps into him, swings, breaks his concealment, and hits, Slick will move (silently) away and burn a charge off the Lesser Vigor wand.
Here's where I've gotten to on Joe Whitebread fighter:
The current tally:
Manticore: Win
Snake: Loss
Wraith: Win
Rug: Loss
Dragon: Win
Not only does the fighter win 3/5 of the fights, but he does so with a minimal expenditure of single-use items. Two wins feature no single use items, and the fighter only really needed a Protection from Acid against the dragon. The fights that he loses are against the uber-grapplers, where I have found no affordable nor rules-based counter to the creature's basic tactic.
Considering that this guy is doing as well as some "optimized" casters, and losing against the snake and the rug for the exact same reasons that the casters lose, he's doing far better than I thought that he would.
If I wanted to metagame, the would buy a few mules and use his animal handling to train them. He would then send them first into rooms, let them get attacked, and then respond. The snake would eat the first mule, and being sated with a good meal, would crawl off to sleep off that months big meal. The next mule would survive the wraith, as the wraith would attack the fighter, but die by the rug. The fighter could then toss firewood into the rug room until he could burn out the rug. Yes, that's cheap, but no more so than some cheapness already posted.
If someone posts a follow-on level 5 mini-adventure, I expect similar results out of him. His only change of equipment would be for the thing that he is expected to know about, and so would reasonably prepare for.
I haven't looked at your build yet, but in your battle with the wraith, did you take into account the following:
Con drain lowers your hps. (this should kill you)
Draining con gives it temp hps?
Vs the manticore, you acknowledge superior tactics. Would you agree that after 15 rounds of slugging it out with you, that tossing more spikes at you would not be unreasonable?
vs the dragon, you mention the differences in to-hits, but you realize that your to hit is 4 times its, but that you have 1/3 its hps. The fight is a lot closer than you might think, especially as it has more than 1 attack per round.
Buying mules to send into a dragon's cave is not metagaming, nor is it against the rules. People can honestly think that there are baddies/traps in caves (thats why we explore them with rogues). But it would make things a lot more complicated.
Versus grapplers, I took Close Quarters Fighting. This was because of the gauntler, not because of the monsters in the dungeon. The first set I could beat without the feat.
As it stands, are you ok with me listing you as 3 losses, 2 ties (manticore or dragon) or should I examine the dragon fight to find out whether or not you beat it (remember, if the fight lasts long enough, your buffs start falling off).
Please make sure that your character has a spellbook with spells in it. If you do not have one prior to the posting of the new encounters (cr5, cr6 - whatever) you will not be able to select new spells without paying to scribe them (etc). It is too easy for people to talk about metagaming depending on the choices of spells selected. Also, in the wizards' postings, as they have not listed spell books, I am not seeing the versatility/etc that is considered one of the hallmarks of wizardry.
I haven't looked at your build yet, but in your battle with the wraith, did you take into account the following:
Con drain lowers your hps. (this should kill you)
Draining con gives it temp hps?
I need to re-examine. It will be close. So close, in fact, that I would call that one a toss-up.
Vs the manticore, you acknowledge superior tactics. Would you agree that after 15 rounds of slugging it out with you, that tossing more spikes at you would not be unreasonable?
Yes, it would be reasonable. However, as the fighter's AC is high due to combat reflexes, the follow-on volleys will do much less damage. Past a certain point, the intelligent actions of the creatures involved make this fight too complex to reasonably predict.
vs the dragon, you mention the differences in to-hits, but you realize that your to hit is 4 times its, but that you have 1/3 its hps. The fight is a lot closer than you might think, especially as it has more than 1 attack per round.
Fighter, 37 HP + 10 HP Buff = 47 HP. The fighter increases to 1/2.
Most of the buffs last minutes per level or tens of minutes per level. The most important one is the protection form acid, which lasts in the 10/level range.
Buying mules to send into a dragon's cave is not metagaming, nor is it against the rules. People can honestly think that there are baddies/traps in caves (thats why we explore them with rogues). But it would make things a lot more complicated.
I must remember this for future gauntlets. Bought creatures work as well as summoned creatures when finding traps, flushing out hidden creatures, and such. It just isn't heroic.
As it stands, are you ok with me listing you as 3 losses, 2 ties (manticore or dragon) or should I examine the dragon fight to find out whether or not you beat it (remember, if the fight lasts long enough, your buffs start falling off).
Go over the dragon fight. I'm fairly confident that Joe can win, but I'm curious what a third party works out.
I think the wraith fight is close enough that we should have 2 losses, 3 ties.
Encounter 1: You bypassed it (which is not a win). If you actually enter combat with the manticore, it will ready an action to toss spikes at your when you winter's blast it. Not sure how much damage you will take from this approach.
A cone can start from any corner of the caster's square, so (as I understand) if Slick is standing on the ground, there are at least three squares he might be standing in when he uses Winter's Blast.
Plus, if the Manticore looks like it's readied an action, Slick doesn't necessarily have to attack that round.
But a simple torch would defeat you. (i.e. highly metagaming).
Depends on the campaign. A lot of the time (at least when I'm playing), it seems like just about everything has Darkvision and almost nothing uses light if it doesn't have to. Note, however, that the No Light cantrip does override nonmagical light sources and suppresses the Light cantrip.
But you are correct that Slick's likely response to running into someone with a magical light source (with an effective spell level of 1 or higher) would be to cast Invisibility and go home. Maybe come back with a Dispel Magic prepared.
How do you want this listed in the first post? 4 wins, 1 tie? or 3 wins, 2 didn't attempt.
It doesn't matter all that much to me. I didn't show that casters are broken so much as that Darkstalker + Ring of the Darkhidden is broken.
I'm working on a Swordsage build that works off the same basic concept. I'll post it if you want.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14475889&postcount=777
Simply decided to pay for my metamagic with cash. Easier that way.
I also think I may have had the most unfair, nova-ish dragon match thus far.
Edit: My illusionist has been tuned a little as well. Not in build, just corrections.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14469851&postcount=727
Here's where I've gotten to on Joe Whitebread fighter:
The current tally:
Manticore: Win
Snake: Loss
Wraith: Win
Rug: Loss
Dragon: Win
Not only does the fighter win 3/5 of the fights, but he does so with a minimal expenditure of single-use items. Two wins feature no single use items, and the fighter only really needed a Protection from Acid against the dragon. The fights that he loses are against the uber-grapplers, where I have found no affordable nor rules-based counter to the creature's basic tactic.
Considering that this guy is doing as well as some "optimized" casters, and losing against the snake and the rug for the exact same reasons that the casters lose, he's doing far better than I thought that he would.
If I wanted to metagame, Joe would buy a few mules and use his animal handling to train them. He would then send them first into rooms, let them get attacked, and then respond. The snake would eat the first mule, and being sated with a good meal, would crawl off to sleep off that big meal. The next mule would survive the wraith, as the wraith would attack the fighter, but would die by the rug. The fighter could then retreat, collect and toss firewood into the rug room until he could burn out the rug. Yes, that's cheap, but no more so than some cheapness already posted.
The rug you may actually be able to beat if you can survive till your first turn. It does really come down to luck though. The rug initiates a normal grapple, not improved grab, meaning your AoO (it only gets 1 attack per round) will be able to damage it and keep it from grappling for a while. when it finally does grab you, It becomes a constrict vs your -4 to hit (for attacking in a grapple) spiked gauntlet damage race. Depending on how much damage you do with your regular attacks and AoO's prior to getting grappled, you could win. If it gets your right from the start though, It becomes very, Very unlikely. The snake is likely a loss though, in your current state (though if you can get an enlarge potion up (or better yet, belt of growth), your damage would increase and your chances of resisting a grapple check and thus constrict damage increases).
Even still, they are pretty iffy fights.
Yeah, I knew it wouldn't matter really, so I never bothered. I'd go with non-combatant and weak will, probably.
It may matter in upcoming encounters if it continues and you choose to participate.
It's an invisible, shapeless unseen servant holding a torch, and with a blanket over it. I do this in game sometimes, if I need a distraction. He only can see and attack me if he dive bombs my unseen servant after he shoots it. If he decides he can ignore it, I can move in with a readied attack. I also have darkvision active out to 60, so don't worry about the cover (unless I'm confusing my builds here.) To note, I am not carrying a torch.
Sorry, that wasn't mentioned in the tactics. And although It could carry a blanket and torch, wearing a blanket seems rather impossible for a shapeless force. thats like having telekinesis or water "wearing" something.
Meant that as, if he does not move any closer, as far as I can tell, my next round I shoot at it (though with a miss chance.) Meaning if it does nothing, I eventually start hitting it with a crossbow.
Depends on how abusive I am with not letting the blast radius hit it. It's a very small burst.
I can't say for certain, but I was under the impression the snakes room was around a corner (thats what got it the surprise round?). Whether it chaces you or not, I have no idea (it may attack the torch some more, who knows)
I'm adding the percent chance that they miss (over 65% miss chance) to my normal tally. When they are under that threshhold, they hit me, and when they are over, they miss. So it may seem that way, but it's not. Remember, my shield and armour saves apply against incorporeal creatures.
Didn't notice your shield was up till I read that tiny paragraph at the end of your build (where a lot of things got lost, my bad for not reading fully)
I don't recall it hiding, meaning that it is in plain view, unless you have a reason to think it should hide. I can assume that it does when I redo this last fight.
It was you who claimed it would be given notice of your approach due to the explosions (not sure on the map, this may not be the case). But given that info, and the blacks tendency to ambush it's targets, it stands to reason it's not waiting in the middle of it's room looking down the hallway. Even if it isn't given advanced notice due to combat, I have addressed some other issues I didn't mention before, below.
Seems it can move a good clip, even with that. I do suppose that it means it can double move, put me in its threat range, then breathe the next turn, but I'm fairly certain I still end up ahead of it. I'll redo those numbers for you. However, I don't ever get in range for it to breath on me to use scorching ray. When I'm 80 feet away, I can see it due to low light conditions from the torch my unseen servant is carrying. If it readied an action to spit at me, he's too far.
Couple issues,
1) is starting range. Can't say what it is ether way, but 160ft seems a little far. Seems quite a distance away from it's prime ambush location. But if thats how the adventure describes it beginning, thats fine
2) unless I'm missing something, your range on scorching rays are 25 +5ft/2 CL unless your scorching ray is CL22, or you have extend spell on it or something, your range is shorter then 80. even entangled, the dragon can close 50, breath 30 (total 80ft)
3) if the starting range is 160ft from the dragon, and the torch is 40ft in front of you, and allows you to see up to 30ft beyond it's range (your human, no low light), your still short 90ft from seeing it, but it can see you (torch provides 60ft of vision for it, so you'd be in the shadowy portion). with your servants slow movement (your unseen servant's move is only 15 ft, ), the dragons fast movement and your being the one within the light source, the dragon would be the one to start at an advantage at the starting range listed.
I still don't know who will win, but these are some additional considerations.
I redid the wraith encounter. The fighter loses by one round if he stands and fight. Given that the fighter can move 20' per round, he has a fair chance to reach the entrance and daylight before dying. (The exact distance to the entrance is not clear, so I can make no pronouncements.). The fight is so close that I would call it a tie.
If the fighter can successfully withdraw, when the fighter goes back in, he can use the mage armor, shield of faith, and protection from evil to give himself a touch AC of 18, meaning that he only gets hit 1/3 of the time. That combo would give him conditional victory. He can destroy the wraith before the wraith kills him. The wraith would choose to withdraw. I do not see a way for the fighter to destroy the wraith as long as it can withdraw.
Attention wizards
Please make sure that your character has a spellbook with spells in it. If you do not have one prior to the posting of the new encounters (cr5, cr6 - whatever) you will not be able to select new spells without paying to scribe them (etc). It is too easy for people to talk about metagaming depending on the choices of spells selected. Also, in the wizards' postings, as they have not listed spell books, I am not seeing the versatility/etc that is considered one of the hallmarks of wizardry.
Who claimed wizards were versatile at level 5?
I need to re-examine. It will be close. So close, in fact, that I would call that one a toss-up.
Let me know when you are ready for me to examine for real (more than just a quick look). The reason why I haven't yet is that you posted that you lost to two of them. As such, you were not in contention for an Overpowered build. The closer you get to winning, the more scrutiny your build gets.
I must remember this for future gauntlets. Bought creatures work as well as summoned creatures when finding traps, flushing out hidden creatures, and such. It just isn't heroic.
If you can do it (reasonably) in a normal adventure, why not do it in this mini-adventure as well? Keep in mind though, if the overpoweredness of the character is derived from purchasing domestic animals, you will probably lose "cool points".
Build One: I leap attack/charge on my Warhorse doing 1 millions damge
Build Two: I twist the fabric of space/time, killing it before it was born
Build Three: I bought a couple chickens. The monster chokes on a chicken bone.
One of the three builds above is less overpowered than the other two.
A cone can start from any corner of the caster's square, so (as I understand) if Slick is standing on the ground, there are at least three squares he might be standing in when he uses Winter's Blast.
Plus, if the Manticore looks like it's readied an action, Slick doesn't necessarily have to attack that round.
Re: three squares: Ah, I hadn't realized that.
Re: manticore: If this is your tactics, then you are saying that this is a loss (you cannot defeat it, and eventually daylight occurs).
Depends on the campaign. A lot of the time (at least when I'm playing), it seems like just about everything has Darkvision and almost nothing uses light if it doesn't have to. Note, however, that the No Light cantrip does override nonmagical light sources and suppresses the Light cantrip.
But you are correct that Slick's likely response to running into someone with a magical light source (with an effective spell level of 1 or higher) would be to cast Invisibility and go home. Maybe come back with a Dispel Magic prepared.
In the adventures I play in we have adventures above ground (in daylight) people with continual flame cast on objects, flaming swords, etc. There is also at least one human (non-darkvision character) per party, usually everyone is human (extra feat).
You currently cannot prepare dispel magic, as you do not have it listed as a spell in your spell book.
It doesn't matter all that much to me. I didn't show that casters are broken so much as that Darkstalker + Ring of the Darkhidden is broken.
I'm working on a Swordsage build that works off the same basic concept. I'll post it if you want.
If it is the same concept and the win is off of equipment, then showing a noncaster doing the same thing (possibly better) is not going to help the case out, it would instead prove to discount your success.
Does the rug trigger an aoe? Meyer thinks it doesn't ... I don't care to delve into grapple rules to find out whether or not it does (surprise round vs. no improved grapple).
What someone noticed in the monster description was that the rug does not have improved grapple. This means that it's grapple attacks provoke an AoO.
However, other than my build (combat reflexes), no one has been able to take an AoO while flatfooted, so the point is moot. After the surprise round, it really doesn't matter as everyone was either grappled or not.
Edit: Thanks for pointing that out Meyer! No-one wants to win this with a flaw like that...
Who claimed wizards were versatile at level 5?
I started at page one of this thread and quoted some people. I bolded the relevant aspects.
Infinitive:
Show
Example:
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Yeah, I knew it wouldn't matter really, so I never bothered. I'd go with non-combatant and weak will, probably.
If you haven't already, please update your build to reflect this.
I actually need more MM. I have little that can deal with things that are immune to fire (please note the heavy dependance on my fire spells doing a lot), and little that deals with incorporeals. I'm considering dumping something and getting a lv1 wand of them, but am not sure as to what.
A caster relying upon a wand to win is similar to a UMD noncaster relying upon a wand. Or, to be cheesy, playing a cloistered cleric 1 for three domains (magic is one of them) to replace the UMD checks. However, this requires a dip into a caster class, which would disqualify it for the purposes of this discussion. Just wanted to toss it out there for those who think it is valid.
When you finish whatever revisions you have, please PM me so that I know it is time to re-examine.
I started at page one of this thread and quoted some people. I bolded the relevant aspects.
There are more, but I just chose some.
Of all those you quoted, most mentioned mid to high levels, or named specific mid/high level spells, one even said 4/5 is the breakeven between melee/caster. Only one said wizards should be versatile as in solo any equivalent cr encounter, and thats an obvious exaggeration, since 2 cr5 wizzies facing off cant both win
Obviously, wizards are limited by their spell selection, which balloons at the mid/high levels.
Bump for great justice! Alix is ready to face whatever comes at her!
I think I can do the maths tomorrow. Well, due to timezone differences, I'd say some 15-16 from now. Before that, Meyer, have a bite and shoot some critique before Alix hits the gauntlet.
Mind telling us where's warbeast template from?
Coz, last I checked it was in MM2. Which makes it 3.0. We don't use 3.0 material here.
If you haven't already, please update your build to reflect this.
A caster relying upon a wand to win is similar to a UMD noncaster relying upon a wand. Or, to be cheesy, playing a cloistered cleric 1 for three domains (magic is one of them) to replace the UMD checks. However, this requires a dip into a caster class, which would disqualify it for the purposes of this discussion. Just wanted to toss it out there for those who think it is valid.
When you finish whatever revisions you have, please PM me so that I know it is time to re-examine.
That again. If its not on his spell list, then ya its cheesy. Anything on his spell list is fair game, wands are specifically designed to be used by a specific subset of classes, they aren't wondrous items. UMD is cheesy for proving noncaster=caster, wands ARE NOT cheesy for increasing the power of a caster. You can't ask people to prove spellcasters are overpowered and then rule out spellcasting man.
Hell, youre using a magic cloak that you dont qualify for according to some, to do 4d6 magical fire damage to monsters that hit you (great proof of melee power, btw). Drop the cloak cheese and you might have a leg to stand on ruling out magic items.
Mind telling us where's warbeast template from?
Coz, last I checked it was in MM2. Which makes it 3.0. We don't use 3.0 material here.
Honestly, the character is not using either of the two animals in his tactics. So whether or not they are legal seems to be a non-issue.
There are more, but I just chose some. Notice, in almost every single build, the arcane casters posted here in this mini-adventure bring almost nothing to the table for outside of combat activities. The sole exception (unless I missed something) is the detect magic/poison possibility (next day only) or the various Alter Self forms. Which is too bad, since without spending gold on spells, they are at a high enough level that they should be able to have 1-2 extra spells in their books.
Are you trying to tell me that the ability to scout, do infiltration by mimicking people, cross obstacles that others can't, and choose from a plethora of skill bonuses all due to Alter Self isn't enough out of combat ability?
That seems far more useful than your build's out of combat activities which seem limited to a low spot, listen, intimidate and UMD.
Honestly, the character is not using either of the two animals in his tactics. So whether or not they are legal seems to be a non-issue.
Wasn't the fleshraker of the druid also a warbeast?
That again. If its not on his spell list, then ya its cheesy. Anything on his spell list is fair game, wands are specifically designed to be used by a specific subset of classes, they aren't wondrous items. UMD is cheesy for proving noncaster=caster, wands ARE NOT cheesy for increasing the power of a caster. You can't ask people to prove spellcasters are overpowered and then rule out spellcasting man.
UMD is a class skill for rogues. Saying that a class cannot use its class abilities is cheesy.
One of the arguments against the UMD tactic is the gp cost it entails. If the caster is spending the same gold as a noncaster, then that argument disappears.
Hell, youre using a magic cloak that you dont qualify for according to some, to do 4d6 magical fire damage to monsters that hit you (great proof of melee power, btw). Drop the cloak cheese and you might have a leg to stand on ruling out magic items.
Firstly, according to the ToB sourcebook, I do qualify for it.
Secondly, the fire is elemental, not magical. However it is supernatural. Kinda like a dragon shaman's ability to breathe fire. Regardless, the discussion is comparing casters to noncasters.
Thirdly, I am not ruling out any magic item (find one post where I am). I am pointing out that noncasters can do the same thing as casters if casters rely upon items. Take a look at the Alter Self Rogue that was posted. This is what I am referring to.
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
There are more, but I just chose some. Notice, in almost every single build, the arcane casters posted here in this mini-adventure bring almost nothing to the table for outside of combat activities. The sole exception (unless I missed something) is the detect magic/poison possibility (next day only) or the various Alter Self forms. Which is too bad, since without spending gold on spells, they are at a high enough level that they should be able to have 1-2 extra spells in their books.
Are you trying to tell me that the ability to scout, do infiltration by mimicking people, cross obstacles that others can't, and choose from a plethora of skill bonuses all due to Alter Self isn't enough out of combat ability?
That seems far more useful than your build's out of combat activities which seem limited to a low spot, listen, intimidate and UMD.
Look at what you quoted me as saying. I bolded the relevant sentences.
First bolded section "Arcane casters" -- which your cloistered cleric build is not. (I picked on arcane casters as they have spellbooks (or spells known). Clerics can choose new spells tomorrow, so can bring stuff to the table.
Most of your rebuttal says "I can cast alter self" which I acknowledged before you posted.
The rest of your rebuttal is "I have a high hide chance", ok. That seems valid. So you can scout basically unseen. Seem fair.
Don't forget my out-of-combat healing ... remember. My build is not supposed to be the uber-powerful build. It is a normal build that can easily expect to see game play. Look at its equipment even, it looks organic. If it can compete with optimized spellcasters favorably, then that means that the spellcasters are not overpowered.
Wasn't the fleshraker of the druid also a warbeast?
Doesn't matter. The build as posted cannot compete (metal armor, overspent, etc). The poster said he was going to be changing things around but hasn't yet.
Warbeast Animal companion is also not allowed as an animal companion because of the SRD which says 'typical for its kind' not 'as old/young as i want'.
UMD is a class skill for rogues. Saying that a class cannot use its class abilities is cheesy.
One of the arguments against the UMD tactic is the gp cost it entails. If the caster is spending the same gold as a noncaster, then that argument disappears.
Firstly, according to the ToB sourcebook, I do qualify for it.
Secondly, the fire is elemental, not magical. However it is supernatural. Kinda like a dragon shaman's ability to breathe fire. Regardless, the discussion is comparing casters to noncasters.
Thirdly, I am not ruling out any magic item (find one post where I am). I am pointing out that noncasters can do the same thing as casters if casters rely upon items. Take a look at the Alter Self Rogue that was posted. This is what I am referring to.
A rogue casting a spell out of a wand is... casting a spell... thus he is... temporarily at least... a.. hmm whats that word... o ya right a spellcaster.
Cheesy for proving hes better than a spellcaster, by becoming one.
You didnt rule it out, you disparaged its use. Kinda like me laughing at you for "prone raging" which is metagaming to a pretty extreme degree, but more effective, since youre helping set the rules/referee.
I dont have tob, but Im going to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who disagree with you. You have a nice ability to ignore the rules when it suits you, like ripping up ikeren's divine retribution.
The mob is striking him for damage. His DR allows him to ignore it, rather than removing it from his current hp. So, according to you, he was never struck. I see no rule supporting this.
The mob is grappling him, which clearly states it damages as an unarmed strike (hell you quoted that) yet you say it couldnt possibly trigger the spell. You just dont want it to trigger the spell. Next I suppose youll quibble over the wording of unarmed strike versus melee attack?
Joe's job was not to win the competition. Joe's job is to deflect someone saying, "Yeah, but a fighter would have lost all the fights." Nope. A plain-jane fighter can win two out of five fights and comes damned close to winning a third win.
All in all, this poorly-optimized fighter built only on the PHB whose primary tactic is to stumble into fights unprepared and just whacks at things appears to be doing as well as most of the so-called optimized casters. Whoot!
Unless someone can point out some better tactics, I don't think that Joe Whitebread will do much better.
Joe's job was not to win the competition. Joe's job is to deflect someone saying, "Yeah, but a fighter would have lost all the fights." Nope. A plain-jane fighter can win two out of five fights and comes damned close to winning a third win.
All in all, this poorly-optimized fighter built only on the PHB whose primary tactic is to stumble into fights unprepared and just whacks at things appears to be doing as well as most of the so-called optimized casters. Whoot!
Fighters arent useless. At level 5. Whoot!
How does a level 15 fighter do against cr 15 challenges? Remember that the casters arent overpowered camp is down to nitpicking a level range that alot of groups skip completely.
A rogue casting a spell out of a wand is... casting a spell... thus he is... temporarily at least... a.. hmm whats that word... o ya right a spellcaster.
Cheesy for proving hes better than a spellcaster, by becoming one.
A wildshaped druid meleeing a monster is... meleeing...thus he is... temporarily at least... a.. hmm whats that word... o ya right a fighter.
Cheesy for proving hes better than a fighter, by becoming one.
PS. And just so you know: a rogue casting a ray from a wand will have higher BAB, likely higher Dex and better ranged attack feats, Sniping options, and sneak attack on top of a wizard casting the same spell.
Fighters arent useless. At level 5. Whoot!
How does a level 15 fighter do against cr 15 challenges? Remember that the casters arent overpowered camp is down to nitpicking a level range that alot of groups skip completely.
A level 15 optimized fighter will thoroughly defeat CR 15 challenges.
Look at what you quoted me as saying. I bolded the relevant sentences.
First bolded section "Arcane casters" -- which your cloistered cleric build is not. (I picked on arcane casters as they have spellbooks (or spells known). Clerics can choose new spells tomorrow, so can bring stuff to the table.
Most of your rebuttal says "I can cast alter self" which I acknowledged before you posted.
The rest of your rebuttal is "I have a high hide chance", ok. That seems valid. So you can scout basically unseen. Seem fair.
Don't forget my out-of-combat healing ... remember. My build is not supposed to be the uber-powerful build. It is a normal build that can easily expect to see game play. Look at its equipment even, it looks organic. If it can compete with optimized spellcasters favorably, then that means that the spellcasters are not overpowered.
No, it means that this set of caster builds are not overpowered at level 5, compared to your tob melee.
Just curious, if after 3 months you finally "win" this thread to your satisfaction, are you gonna try level 10,15, and 20 threads too? Seems pointless to put all this effort into it if at the end your results will be so sharply limited. You still won't be able to say casters aren't overpowered without a caveat unless you prove it through the full range.
A wildshaped druid meleeing a monster is... meleeing...thus he is... temporarily at least... a.. hmm whats that word... o ya right a fighter.
Actually no hes a druid. Everyone can attack, not everyone can use magic. Everyone "fights" the monsters, not everyone one is a "fighter".
Using a wand is fine if youre using spells off your list when it comes to proving class power, and a rogue using UMD is fine if were talking about what rogues bring to the table. The thread is trying to prove spellcasters arent overpowered, a skill that lets a melee mimic a caster ironically helps the caster camp. If it isnt good why are you doing it?
A level 15 optimized fighter will thoroughly defeat CR 15 challenges.
True, the game is pretty much broken by 100's of builds, without a GM there to challenge the players with stuff outside the normal boundaries.
That pretty much leaves us with PVP or utility to assign relative power rankings to the classes.
A wildshaped druid meleeing a monster is... meleeing...thus he is... temporarily at least... a.. hmm whats that word... o ya right a fighter.
Cheesy for proving hes better than a fighter, by becoming one.
PS. And just so you know: a rogue casting a ray from a wand will have higher BAB, likely higher Dex and better ranged attack feats, Sniping options, and sneak attack on top of a wizard casting the same spell.
So he's really good at... casting spells?
As far as bab, dex, feats, and sneak attack, all but bab depends on build and encounter, but if you want to show a UMD ray rogue that can run the gauntlet, go for it, if he wins by casting spells hes not proving much of anything.
So he's really good at... casting spells?
Exactly. Shocking as it may come, casting spells is not a monopoly of casters. Similarly, melee is not a monopoly of noncasters.
Exactly. Shocking as it may come, casting spells is not a monopoly of casters. Similarly, melee is not a monopoly of noncasters.
Never said it was, I just meant you're validating spellcasting as being powerful if you go that route. This thread isnt about any one class being too powerful, its about spellcasting being too powerful (or not, as the case may be, at level 5). You cant prove spells arent overpowered vs melee with a wand using rogue, sorry.
As far as bab, dex, feats, and sneak attack, all but bab depends on build and encounter, but if you want to show a UMD ray rogue that can run the gauntlet, go for it, if he wins by casting spells hes not proving much of anything.
I believe Argaud already posted a UMD rogue.
Imagine very much the same rogue using ray of stupidity on the manticore and the snake, a damage ray on the wraith and the rug, and shriveling touch on the dragon. There you go.
I believe Argaud already posted a UMD rogue.
Imagine very much the same rogue using ray of stupidity on the manticore and the snake, a damage ray on the wraith and the rug, and shriveling touch on the dragon. There you go.
Thats great, a spellcaster win! Can the rogue win without casting spells?
You cant prove spells arent overpowered vs melee
Oh, but I wasn't aware I'm proving this.
I thought I'm proving caster classes cannot be overpowered without resorting to scrolls themselves, due to lack of enough spell slots per day / enough spells known, and since noncasters can use said scrolls via UMD, it boils down to comparing noncaster advantage in BAB, HP, feats, skills to the caster advantage to achieve higher DCs and such.
A caster relying upon a wand to win is similar to a UMD noncaster relying upon a wand. Or, to be cheesy, playing a cloistered cleric 1 for three domains (magic is one of them) to replace the UMD checks. However, this requires a dip into a caster class, which would disqualify it for the purposes of this discussion. Just wanted to toss it out there for those who think it is valid.
When you finish whatever revisions you have, please PM me so that I know it is time to re-examine.
Now to be fair, I demonstrated clearly that I don't strictly need it. I said it would be nice to have. I'll send ya a message as soon as I'm worked out the rest of the convolusions.
Oh, but I wasn't aware I'm proving this.
I thought I'm proving caster classes cannot be overpowered without resorting to scrolls themselves, due to lack of enough spell slots per day / enough spells known, and since noncasters can use said scrolls via UMD, it boils down to comparing noncaster advantage in BAB, HP, feats, skills to the caster advantage to achieve higher DCs and such.
You cant prove a negative, the most glaring flaw of this thread.
As for UMD, again, its a nice skill but whether you UMD a scroll or a wand, youre still casting spells. Try proving spellcasters arent overpowered without being one, ok?
As for bab, spell slots, spells known, and high dcs, someone picked level 5 so the melees could stand a reasonable chance. That wrecks alot of the versatility of casters who dont resort to wands and scrolls. Try level 20 if you arent impressed with level 5.
Of all those you quoted, most mentioned mid to high levels, or named specific mid/high level spells, one even said 4/5 is the breakeven between melee/caster. Only one said wizards should be versatile as in solo any equivalent cr encounter, and thats an obvious exaggeration, since 2 cr5 wizzies facing off cant both win
Obviously, wizards are limited by their spell selection, which balloons at the mid/high levels.
Of all those quoted...
Infinitive:
Show
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Now to be fair, I demonstrated clearly that I don't strictly need it. I said it would be nice to have. I'll send ya a message as soon as I'm worked out the rest of the convolusions.
Yah. You made a valid point for having multiple MM's (considering the rest of your list was all fire based), thats why I didn't continue with that criticism. (still think having 3 exactly (what was needed to win) was a titch coincidental, but I can't in good conscience argue against it)
You cant prove a negative, the most glaring flaw of this thread.
You can demonstrate a belief (spellcasters are superior at all levels, or from level 3+, or 5+, etc) to be incorrect or an exaggeration of the truth.
As for UMD, again, its a nice skill but whether you UMD a scroll or a wand, youre still casting spells. Try proving spellcasters arent overpowered without being one, ok?
Then are the 3 alter self caster builds disqualified for using melee to win, since they weren't using caster methods, or are you going to attempt to justify a double standard here?
Also, spellcasting and spellcasters are still different things. Spellcasters are a class that inherently gets access to spellcasting. Spellcasting is powerful, spellcasters are 1) not as powerful as spellcasting, because they have limits placed upon their ability to do so (spells per day, preparation, etc). 2) not the sole users of spellcasting. We're not attempting to prove anything about spellcasting, we're trying to prove the spellcasters aren't as powerful as some believe them to be.
As for bab, spell slots, spells known, and high dcs, someone picked level 5 so the melees could stand a reasonable chance. That wrecks alot of the versatility of casters who dont resort to wands and scrolls. Try level 20 if you arent impressed with level 5.
Actually, some people prior to Meyer made the claim casters were overpowered (particularly compared to non-casters) as low as level 1, up to level 5. Meyer has started with those levels to disprove those claims, he may move up into the higher levels as time progresses. But for now, it's one step at a time. level 5 was not chosen because it gives non-casters an advantage, it was chosen because the claim was made the descrepancy started here and/or earlier.
Mind telling us where's warbeast template from?
Coz, last I checked it was in MM2. Which makes it 3.0. We don't use 3.0 material here.
What Meyer said. Carnivore wanted them to be Warbeast, so we paid a little extra for that. Since they are not participating to the fight (well, the horse does carry some equipment that Alix doesn't use...) there should be no problem. Honestly I don't even if we paid to have the Tarrasque sitting outside the dungeon carrying the equipment...
Does that sound fair?
Of all those quoted...
Infinitive:Show
Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over.
Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over.
Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized.
etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Since level 5 was not an overwhelmingly conclusive leve, why don't we move on to level 7 characters taking on 4 CR 10 creatures in a 40 minute (max time due to pressing matters) dungeon crawl. The goal would be to reach the end, claim the prize, and escape with your life. Challenges could be bypassed to save zelda, but you lose cool points by not defeating everything.
Does that sound fair?
I'm in. Alix the Fiery shall be there if the gauntlet comes to be.
You can demonstrate a belief (spellcasters are superior at all levels, or from level 3+, or 5+, etc) to be incorrect or an exaggeration of the truth.
Then are the 3 alter self caster builds disqualified for using melee to win, since they weren't using caster methods, or are you going to attempt to justify a double standard here?
Also, spellcasting and spellcasters are still different things. Spellcasters are a class that inherently gets access to spellcasting. Spellcasting is powerful, spellcasters are 1) not as powerful as spellcasting, because they have limits placed upon their ability to do so (spells per day, preparation, etc). 2) not the sole users of spellcasting. We're not attempting to prove anything about spellcasting, we're trying to prove the spellcasters aren't as powerful as some believe them to be.
Actually, some people prior to Meyer made the claim casters were overpowered (particularly compared to non-casters) as low as level 1, up to level 5. Meyer has started with those levels to disprove those claims, he may move up into the higher levels as time progresses. But for now, it's one step at a time. level 5 was not chosen because it gives non-casters an advantage, it was chosen because the claim was made the descrepancy started here and/or earlier.
Emeraldstreak claimed he was proving a negative. As for the thread, the proof being sought has become so watered down its useless, solo cr5 encounters at level 5 is not representative at all. As for spellcaster/spellcasting semantics, I already decided to drop it, that level of quibbling is pointless, most especially over the internet. I came for some lowbie optimization tricks, got a cheap laugh (meyer's prone raging), and Im not particularly interested in what type of character you/meyer/anyone else decides to roll next time you sit down to play. I honestly hope you all have fun, whatever you pick.
PS: spellcasting is spellcasting, and its done by spellcasters, when theyre casting spells, and when you cast a spell youre being a spellcaster, because youre casting a spell. :P
There seems to be some misunderstanding of some basic things.
1) A character using a wand is not CASTING a spell, he is using an item.
(giving an example for clarity)
A rogue cannot enter arcane trickster because he has a wand of fireballs. He needs to CAST a spell, which he cannot do by activating an item.
2) Alter Self is an example of a really powerful spell.
Characters that can CAST it (like wizards) are CASTERS who use their class abilities.
Characters that can ACTIVATE items of Alter Self might be NONCASTERS who use their class abilities.
If each camp (casters and noncasters) can use the same MAGIC then the issue is the overpoweredness of MAGIC, not casters or noncasters.
Spells with DCs, swift action spells (Wraith strike), or prohibitively expensive spells cannot be easily used by noncasters. These show the power of a caster.
This thread is not about the overpoweredness of magic, it is about casters.
3) Once we finish with this level 5 mini-encounter and then go through another CR5 mini-encounter with the same characters, then I think that level 5 will be sufficiently explored.
1- On the subject of the DM, Meyer, you are DMing this thing, and thus you shouldn't be playing, since you have made rulings explicitly for the benefit of yourself (the manticore charges, because that is what his entry says he does/ after 15 rounds the manticore would fly away and volley you).
2- Additionally, builds that are winning by going into a cave and fighting animals and creatures without darkvision are stupid- why exaclty is this cave populated with unintelligent creatures, almost none of which have darkvision. Next time arounds, the environs should be more suited to the animals living in them; pointedly, snakes don't hunt in caves; even small ones hunt *mosty* on the surface in low light conditions.
3- The elite array is a joke for casters; while I fighter just gets to hit/damage out of str or dex (also ac with dex) a wizards relies on their casting stat for both bonus spells and save DCs. WHen you are using a threshold method for save DCs, this makes playing a "save or die" caster, which is usually the absolutely most powerful against low level creatures (who have crappy saves) it just screws teh casters over.
4- Disallowing Dragon Magazine makes it pretty obvious that you only want to prove one point, and you dont' care how you prove it. The fact is, that the majority of the schpiel about how overpowered casters are comes from the CharOp boards; which frequently use dragon magazine in some of their builds. Disallowing it for "balance" reasons is silly, especially from someone who is dipping into 4 base classes, including one from ToB which allows maneuvers to be gained in a ridiculous fashion.
5- Lets face what is really going on here; this is degenerating into a "most clever use of UMD" thread, and is becoming quite separate from anything which could be done by a caster vs a non-caster. It would be quite hilarious to see someone build a very unoptimized rogue and just spam off a wand of heroics until they have nearly every feat they qualify for, then traipse through the "dungeon" like it was nothing.
That being said, I've been toying with an archivist build, btu dont' have all my books here. If someone could requote the exact rules and monsters which are currently being faced that wuld be awesome, since there is a lot here to wade through
You didnt rule it out, you disparaged its use. Kinda like me laughing at you for "prone raging" which is metagaming to a pretty extreme degree, but more effective, since youre helping set the rules/referee.
Yes, I did point out that doing so might inspire a noncaster to the same tactics. Since a noncaster has already done something similar, it seems reasonable. If you followed the thread, you will notice that I give out pointers to casters prior to evaluating their builds. I also have responded to people's criticism of my build.
I dont have tob, but Im going to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who disagree with you. You have a nice ability to ignore the rules when it suits you, like ripping up ikeren's divine retribution.
For the most part, both casters and noncasters agree with my use of the cloak. The ones who do agree have the book and have specified page numbers and quoted relevant text. The ones who do not agree are not reading the book or the quoted text. Note: Otto disagrees with my punishing stance technique and we have taken it to custserv for arbitration. This is not an example of ignoring the rules.
For ripping up Divine Retribution ... I don't see the problem with that, I quoted text, bolded key points, and walked the reader through my logic. If you have an issue with how I arrived at my point, please quote me, and show me where I messed up.
The mob is striking him for damage. His DR allows him to ignore it, rather than removing it from his current hp. So, according to you, he was never struck. I see no rule supporting this.
That is a summary of what I said, rather than what I said (very similar in this case though).
I said he was struck, but took no damage from the initiation of the grapple. Do you agree?
I further said that when he lost the grapple check (which is not a melee attack, quoted quite clearly the SRD that agrees with me) he took damage.
Do you agree?
The weapon that the spell generates only triggers when both conditions are met:
Melee Attack
Damage dealt.
From the SRD:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease.
Spells with DCs, swift action spells (Wraith strike), or prohibitively expensive spells cannot be easily used by noncasters. These show the power of a caster.
This thread is not about the overpoweredness of magic, it is about casters.
There is a serious flaw in your logic here.
- Low level Spells with DC's are pretty much laughable at level 5 since most have a cap of 4 HD like sleep, fear, color spray etc..
- Swift action spells are only 1 round and rarely do DD (and if they do it's very low due to the spell being a swift action). Most like wraithstrike, swift experidous retreat, swift fly etc... are utility and/or buffs which are not taken into your combat comparison only gauntlet.
- Prohibitively expensive spells aren't used at low levels because they are prohibitively expensive and low level PC's don't have the cash to waste on them.
Further more, magic = casters and vice versa. You are trying to claim that magic does not equate to casting and as a result you end up with a class with no abilities other than spell access compared to a melee type who can access the same magic via skills and items plus has better HD, BAB, and abilities. This is the flaw in your comparison. You have stacked the entire challenge against the caster and are making it look like you are proving a point.
You cant prove a negative, the most glaring flaw of this thread.
You are confusing this thread with its sister thread (debunking the myth of overpowered spellcasters). This thread is looking for examples of overpowered casters. Another poster mentioned a mini-adventure to help rank the overpoweredness of the entries. This was due to my saying things like "If all you have are mind-influencing spells, how do you affect undead, etc". Note: I did not select the monsters, nor arrange them.
Ok, things have slowed down enough, I can start addressing some of the unexamined (by me at least) caster builds.
I have issues with this for the following:
1: WBL is broken
2: Does not seem like an organic character
3: Uses XP.
However ... if no one else has an issue -- ignore this.
Unsure if this is legit, but it looks legit -- and more importantly, looks awesome.
No objections ...
The AC is (10+18-1+2) = 29
False Life is worth 10.5 hps.
Character has 4+2.5*4+5=19 hps
Vs Manticore: Restating. This is assumed to happen at night as it benefits the caster (his attacks are short range). Since there is only one opponent, there is no different between doing nothing, and holding until after the opponent goes.Show
Round 1: Wizard wins init by 4
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 30% hit, fail)
Round 2
Wizard casts false life.
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 60% hit, one hits, 6.5 damage)
Round 3
Wizard regains one spell (1 pearl of power)
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 90% hit, misses)
Round 4:
Wizard does nothing
Manticore unleases 6 spikes (total 120% hit, misses)
Round 5:
Wizard does nothing.
Manticore dives in and attacks the wizard (charge (+2 to hit)) hits 20%. (140% total).
Round 6:
Wizard 5' steps backwards (no longer threatened) casts orb of electricity (vs ac 9), hitting 80% of the time (+4 vs 9 (charged)) for 13.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (hitting 10% with claws, 5% with bite), (150% first claw, 165% afterwards) for 10 damage.
End of Round 6: Wizard: 18.5, Manticore 43.5
Round 7:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts false life (10.5)
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (190% missing).
End of Round 7: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 43.5
Round 8:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts power word pain (duration 10 rounds), dealing 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' adjusts and full attacks (215% missing)
End of round 8: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), Manticore 40
Round 9:
Wizard takes 5' step back and casts invisibility, manticore takes another 3.5 damage.
Manticore 5' steps and full attacks (it knows which square you are in) (240%) (150% miss chance)
End of Round 9: Wizard 18.5 (10.5), manticore (36.5)
Round 10:
Wizard moves and regains false life (2 pearls of power), manticore takes 3.5 damage.
Manticore gives up (it is intelligent after all).
The next few rounds, wizard regains invisibility (3 pearls of power), lesser orb of electricity (4 pearls of power), power word pain (5 peals of power).
L'Avantgarde Noire
I just had a couple of comments to make about all this: The bickering is absolutely silly, both sides are trying to jack over people on the rules, which is the purview of the DM.
1- On the subject of the DM, Meyer, you are DMing this thing, and thus you shouldn't be playing, since you have made rulings explicitly for the benefit of yourself (the manticore charges, because that is what his entry says he does/ after 15 rounds the manticore would fly away and volley you).
Point to one non-rule based thing I have said or done to any participant. The example you give about the manticore, I suggested a course of action to the posted. He had no problem with it.
2- Additionally, builds that are winning by going into a cave and fighting animals and creatures without darkvision are stupid- why exaclty is this cave populated with unintelligent creatures, almost none of which have darkvision. Next time arounds, the environs should be more suited to the animals living in them; pointedly, snakes don't hunt in caves; even small ones hunt *mosty* on the surface in low light conditions.
I didn't make the mini-adventure, so you cannot pin this on me. However, it has a very old-school feel to it. I have been in dungeon crawls very similar to it before.
3- The elite array is a joke for casters; while I fighter just gets to hit/damage out of str or dex (also ac with dex) a wizards relies on their casting stat for both bonus spells and save DCs. WHen you are using a threshold method for save DCs, this makes playing a "save or die" caster, which is usually the absolutely most powerful against low level creatures (who have crappy saves) it just screws teh casters over.
Ok, so if you feel that casters cannot be overpowered with the elite array, please say so.
I did not tell anyone what method they should use to battle monsters. Some casters chose to use 65% threshold, some 50% threshold, etc.
Honestly though, if the monster has greater than a 50% chance of saving, you would expect the monster to save versus your spell. This is exactly what the threshold method is trying to simulate.
4- Disallowing Dragon Magazine makes it pretty obvious that you only want to prove one point, and you dont' care how you prove it. The fact is, that the majority of the schpiel about how overpowered casters are comes from the CharOp boards; which frequently use dragon magazine in some of their builds. Disallowing it for "balance" reasons is silly, especially from someone who is dipping into 4 base classes, including one from ToB which allows maneuvers to be gained in a ridiculous fashion.
Disallowing a magazine,
Which a lot of DMs might not have access to?
Which was not allowed per the first post of this thread?
Which I cannot even see to read the feat/spell/whatever? How do we know that the spell/feat is what the poster says it is?
As far as dipping is concerned. This is a tactic exclusively to noncasters. Casters lose too much (caster level).
5- Lets face what is really going on here; this is degenerating into a "most clever use of UMD" thread, and is becoming quite separate from anything which could be done by a caster vs a non-caster. It would be quite hilarious to see someone build a very unoptimized rogue and just spam off a wand of heroics until they have nearly every feat they qualify for, then traipse through the "dungeon" like it was nothing.
Other than the UMD Rogue, what other build uses UMD? I have it, but did not use it. So I would have to disagree with you here, except for the last page or two, based on one poster, this thread is not becoming a "most clever use of UMD" thread.
That being said, I've been toying with an archivist build, btu dont' have all my books here. If someone could requote the exact rules and monsters which are currently being faced that wuld be awesome, since there is a lot here to wade through
Take a look at post one. It has links to the mini-adventure as well as the rules for character building. Note: It has been said multiple times, try not to metagame your character.
You can even follow the links to the other combatants, to see what seems to be working/not working (although this would also be metagaming)
The problems with this entire configuration are manifold, but by far the biggest are 1) Emphasis on stupid, brute-force combat (avoidance tactics are not permitted, despite not compromising the mission goals at all), and 2) Solo missions. Solo missions are not even *remotely* representative of an actual campaign.
I'd say we should probably take a Neverwinter Nights style approach to making solo missions into group missions: provide a set of "iconic four" not-terribly-optimized characters (say, limit us to PHB-only to keep the company from overshadowing the entrant), complete with gear and all other choices, of which each entrant may choose one to accompany him. The spellcaster types should have fixed (but combat-heavy and effective) spell memorizations, of which the accompanying character may change one slot per spell level. Skills and feats should be immutable.
I'll provide some sample CR5 skeletons for people to pick at, though I don't have time to worry about gear or memorizations. I'm certainly looking for help with these. Again, these are PHB-only; this is what provides the difference between a Cleric with a Fighter assistant and a Fighter with a Cleric assistant -- if the Cleric is what's overpowered, giving him more options should just enhance that. The point of this is simply to let the character not exist in a vacuum. Then, ramping the encounter level up until one group loses would probably give *some* result.
Fighter: Dwarf Barbarian 3/Fighter 2
Stats: St 16 (15+1), Dex 12, Con 16 (14 +2 racial), In 13, Wis 10, Cha 6 (8 -2 racial)
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
(This guy's meant to use a Guisarme; I figure that's about the best one can do with PHB-only)
Rogue: Halfling Rogue 5
Stats: St 10 (12 -2 racial), Dex 18 (15 +2 racial +1), Con 14, In 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
(Pretty basic finesse rogue)
Cleric: Human Cleric 5
Stats: St 14, Dex 10, Con 14 (12 +2 racial), In 8, Wis 16 (15+1), Cha 13
Domains: Travel, Strength
Feats: I don't know what feats to actually take for a PHB cleric; maybe expertise and improved trip?
(Pretty basic cleric, will need some help with this one)
Wizard: Human Wizard 5
Stats: St 12, Dex 13, Con 14, In 16 (15+1), Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Spell Penetration
(Takes Extend Spell for buffing, Spell Penetration for offensive spells)
There is a serious flaw in your logic here.
- Low level Spells with DC's are pretty much laughable at level 5 since most have a cap of 4 HD like sleep, fear, color spray etc..
The enchanter didn't do too badly in this one. However, if you mean this to be that casters are not overpowered at level 5 because their spells have deteriorated too badly, please, feel free to say so.
- Swift action spells are only 1 round and rarely do DD (and if they do it's very low due to the spell being a swift action). Most like wraithstrike, swift experidous retreat, swift fly etc... are utility and/or buffs which are not taken into your combat comparison only gauntlet.
Wraith strike (unless I missed something) is a staple in Gish builds. Since people have posted Gish skeletons that obey the rules of this thread, it could be easily used. Wraith strike deals no damage, but when coupled with AoOs and Power Attack, can be quite deadly.
- Prohibitively expensive spells aren't used at low levels because they are prohibitively expensive and low level PC's don't have the cash to waste on them.
True, but a lot of this discussion is true at high levels as well as low levels. For instance, there is a 1500 gp item in MIC that allows one (through detect magic) to identify items in 1 minute instead of 1 hour. This is something that a caster can use better than a noncaster. Casters are able to use metamagic on their spells, which noncasters cannot do, etc...
Further more, magic = casters and vice versa. You are trying to claim that magic does not equate to casting and as a result you end up with a class with no abilities other than spell access compared to a melee type who can access the same magic via skills and items plus has better HD, BAB, and abilities. This is the flaw in your comparison. You have stacked the entire challenge against the caster and are making it look like you are proving a point.
Ok ... please post what ruleset you think would be fair. Just so that I have an idea what a more balanced ruleset for this discussion would be.
5- Lets face what is really going on here; this is degenerating into a "most clever use of UMD" thread, and is becoming quite separate from anything which could be done by a caster vs a non-caster. It would be quite hilarious to see someone build a very unoptimized rogue and just spam off a wand of heroics until they have nearly every feat they qualify for, then traipse through the "dungeon" like it was nothing.
Could not have said it better myself. Everyone knows UMD is the most powerful thing in the game if you're willing to spend the gold. Because UMD lets you do anything, allowing UMD into this sort of contest just turns it into a "Well, I do that too" competition.
The problem with UMD, as I see it, is that nobody actually thinks abusing UMD is less powerful than just "being a spellcaster." Sure, you can use it, it's legal in the game, and it will help beat this challenge, but it's not going to prove anything. There is a *reason* that Artificers are usually considered the single most powerful class, and it's their utter mastery of UMD that makes it so.
The top four are traditionally: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer.
Artificer is not there. In fact, artificers lose a lot of their power in non-eberron places where they cannot hasten infusions (action points).
The problems with this entire configuration are manifold, but by far the biggest are 1) Emphasis on stupid, brute-force combat (avoidance tactics are not permitted, despite not compromising the mission goals at all), and 2) Solo missions. Solo missions are not even *remotely* representative of an actual campaign.
There was no emphasis on brute-force combat. The enchanter went through with non-brute force approaches. The cloistered cleric (hiding) build went through very non-brute forcedly.
Avoidance tactics are permitted, you just have to come back and finish them off to gain experience.
I'd say we should probably take a Neverwinter Nights style approach to making solo missions into group missions: provide a set of "iconic four" not-terribly-optimized characters (say, limit us to PHB-only to keep the company from overshadowing the entrant), complete with gear and all other choices, of which each entrant may choose one to accompany him. The spellcaster types should have fixed (but combat-heavy and effective) spell memorizations, of which the accompanying character may change one slot per spell level. Skills and feats should be immutable.
I disagree. Based on the build that people take, the rest of the party would need to be quite different. However, this might be interesting to take to a different thread.
This thread is looking for optimized casters.
Ok ... please post what ruleset you think would be fair. Just so that I have an idea what a more balanced ruleset for this discussion would be.
easiest solution, no consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use activated items that duplicate spells, on either side (yes even bar the caster from having them). Maybe allow casters a 2 scroll allotment since it's actually a wizard class ability/virtual feat.
That will cut it down to melee Vs spell casting in the majority of cases (gish's like duskblade are still wildcards though)
The top four are traditionally: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer.
Artificer is not there. In fact, artificers lose a lot of their power in non-eberron places where they cannot hasten infusions (action points).
Huh? Have you actually *seen* some of the artificer threads on this board? Those are the traditional top 4 only because they are in the PHB, not because they more powerful than the artificer.
There was no emphasis on brute-force combat. The enchanter went through with non-brute force approaches. The cloistered cleric (hiding) build went through very non-brute forcedly.
The cloistered cleric, I'll give you. The enchanter walked through casting "Save or Lose" on everything, until just before the end. In what way is that not brute force?
Avoidance tactics are permitted, you just have to come back and finish them off to gain experience.
Why?
I disagree. Based on the build that people take, the rest of the party would need to be quite different. However, this might be interesting to take to a different thread.
This thread is looking for optimized casters.
Note I didn't say "you get all 4 alliess", I said "you get 1 ally from these 4." That would make the party quite different. And the only reason I specified that they would be pre-built was to save people time in building an extra NPC each; if it was preferred to build any one "extra" NPC using PHB-only (to keep them from overshadowing), that would accomplish the same goal.
I think that method is more central to the original idea of this thread than the one actually being used, but I suppose that doesn't matter too much.
Yes, I did point out that doing so might inspire a noncaster to the same tactics. Since a noncaster has already done something similar, it seems reasonable. If you followed the thread, you will notice that I give out pointers to casters prior to evaluating their builds. I also have responded to people's criticism of my build.
For the most part, both casters and noncasters agree with my use of the cloak. The ones who do agree have the book and have specified page numbers and quoted relevant text. The ones who do not agree are not reading the book or the quoted text. Note: Otto disagrees with my punishing stance technique and we have taken it to custserv for arbitration. This is not an example of ignoring the rules.
For ripping up Divine Retribution ... I don't see the problem with that, I quoted text, bolded key points, and walked the reader through my logic. If you have an issue with how I arrived at my point, please quote me, and show me where I messed up.
That is a summary of what I said, rather than what I said (very similar in this case though).
I said he was struck, but took no damage from the initiation of the grapple. Do you agree?
I further said that when he lost the grapple check (which is not a melee attack, quoted quite clearly the SRD that agrees with me) he took damage.
Do you agree?
The weapon that the spell generates only triggers when both conditions are met:
Melee Attack
Damage dealt.
From the SRD:
Grapple damage works as an unarmed strike, not a skill check. Please reread it a few times, you're subconciously editing out 6 very important words.
Per the description of DR, damage is dealt, it just doesnt matter (can be ignored) ie wound instantly heals. The damage was still dealt. The rule on some offensive abilities not piercing DR wouldnt be applied by someone whos intent was a fair result, spells specifically are not blocked, this is a spell effect. All listed examples of blocked abilities are offensive riders on the attack, not a defensive response to the attack.
False life has a duration of hours/level, so it is on before combat starts, meaning I take one less volley of spikes. The stated tactic of the Manticore is that it sends a volley of spikes then closes, and I call foul on it hovering around using guerrilla tactics before it's even gotten hit once. Once it closes within 20 feet, it can't retreat out of range of a move action and a close range spell. Furthermore, with clumsy maneuverability it cannot both start and end it's turn 85 feet away from me (move action, immediate action teleport, and spell). That means that it should be doomed in four rounds (It attacks, It closes, I orb it, It charges/flees, I power word pain it, it tries guerrilla tactics I retreat back 30 ft and recover power pain, it tries again, I pain it, It attacks/flees, I turn invisible. It dies.)
Not contesting the general gist of this paragraph, I agree with much of what you say her, but I feel the need to point out 1 thing... The bolded statement is actually untrue. It has flyby, meaning it can move half it's move, volly then turn back, thus staying at 85 ft away (so long as it and volly around 60-650ft(needs room to turn)) even with clumsy maneuverability. Please note, I don't think this changes the general point of this paragraph.
4 pearls.
You can't have crafted those, as they have a CL requirement of level 17.
8 pearls total.
You are now definatly beyond your character wealth.
2) In reality, we run the risk of being drained twice. In that case, it needs two orbs to kill it. If this happens a)so that the Wraith has temporary hitpoints untouched by the bison, I can retreat and wait an hour for them to wear off. Invisibility would be refreshed, though I would enter without it on so that I could turn invisible if I miss. b)elsewise, the character would probably weigh the risks of being drained and retreat for the day. The wraith wouldn't heal, so it would be easily killed.
The bolded parts are metagaming, your character does not have knowledge religion (doesn't have any skills in fact, you obvious reply to add skills including knowledge religion is why complete builds are generally desired)
easiest solution, no consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use activated items that duplicate spells, on either side (yes even bar the caster from having them). Maybe allow casters a 2 scroll allotment since it's actually a wizard class ability/virtual feat.
That will cut it down to melee Vs spell casting in the majority of cases (gish's like duskblade are still wildcards though)
It is sensible, but it further pigeonholes the whole experiment, and would require a rebuild of pretty much all the characters. Once they were rebuilt, you know something else would come up.
Meyer, I disagree with your main point primarily because I see overpowered as something entirely different than what has been put forth in this thread. Overpowered to me is when you outshine your fellow partymembers, when you take away their "I matter to this party!" feeling.
Some casters do that, especially before Bo9S, which was a much needed boost to noncasters taking on the frontliner-role.
What has been proven is that at for a lvl 5 character, at level appropriate challenges(the 5 x cr 5 isn't that), casters can duplicate alot of the noncasters power. Do you disagree with this?
They can also cast a plethora of utilityspells(remember, in a party, casters don't use all their spells for direct combat. They save slots compared to this challenge), and on downtime they can craft stuff.
At higher levels the casters impose even more on the noncasters turf, and is eventually made obsolete. They simply don't matter as much as a caster do in a regular adventure at those levels.
So it's not a matter of the power of the two groupings at certain levelranges, it's that, at low levels, wizards can do alot, but still need noncasters for some stuff(but still taking away some fun - CDG a bunch of sleeping goblins isn't as fun as casting sleep on all of them). At higher levels some casters can completely take on the roles of noncasters, while still doing other stuff.
I'm sorry if this is a bit confusing - my written english is still a bit rusty
My evoker, the weakest of mages.ShowTim the enchanter:
Fire elf evoker
Wizard 5
Specialist, evocation, focused specialist, fire domain wizard, energy affinity: fire,
Lost: Enchantments, necromancy, transmutations.
Stats: elite array
Stre: 10
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13 (11)
Inte: 15 (18)
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (6)
Items: 4 rubies from the elemental plane of fire (4400), Headband of intelligence +2 (4400) 3 bullseye lamps, (36) a few blankets (1) flint and steel (1) master crafted crossbow (335) 60 bolts (6) spell book (100), knife---- 8881 total. Rest into food and other essentials.
Just because a grapple is a specific type of melee attack, doesn't mean it is no longer a melee attack.
1) You cannot use this spell as you have no diety, or
2) You use the alignment weapon listed under Spiritual Weapon (which deals 1d8)
Clerics can get power from anything divine that will give it to them. Rules even allow for a cleric having a deity but not know who that deity is (which is interesting to roleplay, but that is besides the point). In that situation, the unknown deities weapon that the cleric worships/gains power from and is not aware of it could be a Greatsword, but they wouldn't be limited to that deities domain. It's perfectly within the rules, just requires a little roleplaying to gain a mechanical advantage.
As far as DR vs the Wraith ... ok, so if this means that the wraith can damage you, then you go by the scenario I outlines, where your divine retaliation kills it after you take 7 con drain.
Or, you go by my new scenario that you were supposed to check, where everything was done right.
Stone Fist is not cast targetting the Wraith. The spell in no way shape or form interacts with the wraith. The results of the spell (your fists) interact with the wraith, but your firsts are not magical (they have no enhancement bonus).
The spell magically empowers my fist.
My fists are eligible for a dispel magic being cast on them.
My fists can be detected with detect magic.
My fists would revert to normal in an anti-magic field.
My magical fists punch the wraith.
But that is not magic?
By the way, you are a cleric, why don't you try to use "Rebuke Undead" by my count, you should have one attempt remaining, if your charisma is high enough, it just might work?
(4*4 extra turning = 16, +3) = 19 base. 2 are added temporarily with eagles splendor then burned, giving me (21/21) to (0/21)
Numerous times you have shown inability to avoid bias. I am pretty sure this build does not work because you do not want it to work, not because it breaks rules in some ambiguous sense. Frankly, several times you've shown errors in even understanding the rules put forth, such as thinking damage reduction applies to touch attacks, without even taking the time to look it up yourself. Your build is still under criticism from numerous parties for doing dubious things. Mine is under criticism from you (and Kratch, who didn't like the fact I said "Negated" in relation to "Fortitude Negates...") Your ability to adjudicate rules is suspect in many ways.
easiest solution, no consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use activated items that duplicate spells, on either side (yes even bar the caster from having them). Maybe allow casters a 2 scroll allotment since it's actually a wizard class ability/virtual feat.
That will cut it down to melee Vs spell casting in the majority of cases (gish's like duskblade are still wildcards though)
This is a subset of a ruleset, you do not describe character creation/etc ... Since you had issues with them (elite array/etc) please post the entire thing.
easiest solution, no consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use activated items that duplicate spells, on either side (yes even bar the caster from having them). Maybe allow casters a 2 scroll allotment since it's actually a wizard class ability/virtual feat.
That will cut it down to melee Vs spell casting in the majority of cases (gish's like duskblade are still wildcards though)
Seconded, with the addition that any tactics may be used.
Okay, i really don't think that this challenge is going to prove anything. Kudos to this not devolving into trolling yet, and i don't even think Godwins Law has taken over yet :p
Meyer, I disagree with your main point primarily because I see overpowered as something entirely different than what has been put forth in this thread. Overpowered to me is when you outshine your fellow partymembers, when you take away their "I matter to this party!" feeling.
Some casters do that, especially before Bo9S, which was a much needed boost to noncasters taking on the frontliner-role.
This thread is not meant to debate overpoweredness of casters, that is for this thread's sister thread in the classes forum.
However, having said this. Based on what you have seen of the UMD rogue and the multiple dipping noncaster, compare that to the builds you have seen attempt the mini-adventure. Can you honestly say that the caster builds took away noncasters "i matter to this party" feeling?
What has been proven is that at for a lvl 5 character, at level appropriate challenges(the 5 x cr 5 isn't that), casters can duplicate alot of the noncasters power. Do you disagree with this?
They can also cast a plethora of utilityspells(remember, in a party, casters don't use all their spells for direct combat. They save slots compared to this challenge), and on downtime they can craft stuff.
Point to a single arcane caster who has a spellbook. Or spent gold on spells? or took craft feats (Except the pearl-of-power poster). What spells can they cast other than what they memorized? Additionally, every caster who took the fighter variant (to gain a different bonus feat) gave up scribe scroll. So they cannot even do that.
At higher levels the casters impose even more on the noncasters turf, and is eventually made obsolete. They simply don't matter as much as a caster do in a regular adventure at those levels.
So it's not a matter of the power of the two groupings at certain levelranges, it's that, at low levels, wizards can do alot, but still need noncasters for some stuff(but still taking away some fun - CDG a bunch of sleeping goblins isn't as fun as casting sleep on all of them). At higher levels some casters can completely take on the roles of noncasters, while still doing other stuff.
This thread is currently focusing on low levels, once it more fully explores that level grouping, it will move up the chain.
Your english is better than many other posters, so no worries.
Meyer, I disagree with your main point primarily because I see overpowered as something entirely different than what has been put forth in this thread. Overpowered to me is when you outshine your fellow partymembers, when you take away their "I matter to this party!" feeling.
this is not a condition of any class in specific though. Any class can be made to outshine other characters, It is a matter of the level of optimization allowed/used, not the class thats used.
You could argue that a wizard, by novaing all the encounters, can make a fighter unneeded during those encounters. But a wizard that is novaing encounters rather then letting the melee do his part is reducing the groups effectiveness. The melee still matters to the party, as he makes it more efficient. Reducing the parties effectiveness because you don't understand how best to play a caster (not you specifically) is nether overpowered, or an issue of any class.
What has been proven is that at for a lvl 5 character, at level appropriate challenges(the 5 x cr 5 isn't that), casters can duplicate alot of the noncasters power. Do you disagree with this?
it's also been shown that a melee with UMD can duplicate a lot of that same power casters are using to duplicate noncasters, and then putting it to better (to varying degrees) use.
They can also cast a plethora of utilityspells(remember, in a party, casters don't use all their spells for direct combat. They save slots compared to this challenge), and on downtime they can craft stuff.
if their not using all their spells for direct combat, they are no longer "outshining your fellow partymembers, taking away their "I matter to this party!" feeling."
They can't do both at the same time.
At higher levels the casters impose even more on the noncasters turf, and is eventually made obsolete. They simply don't matter as much as a caster do in a regular adventure at those levels.
we haven't gotten to higher levels, so making conclusions at this point is inconclusive. But this is the general opinion we are trying to address, it's just, at the moment, we are addressing it for those that claim it to be true at low levels.
So it's not a matter of the power of the two groupings at certain levelranges, it's that, at low levels, wizards can do alot, but still need noncasters for some stuff(but still taking away some fun - CDG a bunch of sleeping goblins isn't as fun as casting sleep on all of them). At higher levels some casters can completely take on the roles of noncasters, while still doing other stuff.
Killing the ones that make their save or weren't in the area of effect or the ones that beat the wizards init and closed, is fun though, moreso IMHO then casting sleep.
I'm sorry if this is a bit confusing - my written english is still a bit rusty
Just because a grapple is a specific type of melee attack, doesn't mean it is no longer a melee attack.
Read what I wrote and quoted carefully. At no point in time do I say that initiating a grapple is not an attack. The point is that it deals no damage.
The damage is done later in the round, from a grapple check.
Clerics can get power from anything divine that will give it to them. Rules even allow for a cleric having a deity but not know who that deity is (which is interesting to roleplay, but that is besides the point). In that situation, the unknown deities weapon that the cleric worships/gains power from and is not aware of it could be a Greatsword, but they wouldn't be limited to that deities domain. It's perfectly within the rules, just requires a little roleplaying to gain a mechanical advantage.
Can you point me to the rule about clerics not knowing what their deity is? Or that you can choose domains other than your deity's?
The spell magically empowers my fist.
My fists are eligible for a dispel magic being cast on them.
My fists can be detected with detect magic.
My fists would revert to normal in an anti-magic field.
My magical fists punch the wraith.
But that is not magic?
Let me say it differently, a 4th level monk gains Ki Strike
Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.
Their fists do not radiate magic, yet they overcome Dr/magic.
Or, from the SRD (Damage Reduction)
Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Where does your spell say that it grants an enhancement bonus to your fists?
Numerous times you have shown inability to avoid bias. I am pretty sure this build does not work because you do not want it to work, not because it breaks rules in some ambiguous sense. Frankly, several times you've shown errors in even understanding the rules put forth, such as thinking damage reduction applies to touch attacks, without even taking the time to look it up yourself. Your build is still under criticism from numerous parties for doing dubious things. Mine is under criticism from you (and Kratch, who didn't like the fact I said "Negated" in relation to "Fortitude Negates...") Your ability to adjudicate rules is suspect in many ways.
Most of the criticism of my build (which has been up 1 week longer than the next longest one) is either not valid (per consensus) or has been fixed (missed maneuver prereq, posted less skill points/hps than i should have).
The remaining criticism is being sent to CustServ for arbitration.
As far as me missing rules questions. Think about the number of corrections/etc I have posted. Then compare that to the number of things I got wrong. I think that my percentage is sufficiently high. Proof of this is how many people in this thread (on both sides) are not pointing my errors out.
This is a subset of a ruleset, you do not describe character creation/etc ... Since you had issues with them (elite array/etc) please post the entire thing.
I had intended it as a "fix" to your ruleset but since you want an entire rule set:
- Abilities: 32 pt buy
- Books: any 3.5 printed source book. No web enhancements, dungeon/dragon magazine material, 3rd party material.
- Level: 7
- Wealth: standard for level. No more than 1/3 your wealth on any 1 item.
- Mid level knowledge of area and ecology. (doesn't take a genius to ask the local rangers or guards what types of beasts are in the area).
- No consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use, command, other activated items that directly duplicate spells. (caveat: wizards and wizards only get 2 scrolls allowed since it is a class ability/virtual feat).
- Casters can loose no more than 1 caster level.
- Melee can loose no more than 1 BAB.
- Paladins/rangers count as melee
- Psychic warriors, duskblades, factorums, dragon shamans shouldn't be used
- Warlocks, dragonfire adepts, count as casters.
Read what I wrote and quoted carefully. At no point in time do I say that initiating a grapple is not an attack. The point is that it deals no damage.
The damage is done later in the round, from a grapple check.
Actually, I think your misunderstanding. He's arguing the grapple check (not the touch attack to initiate) is still a melee attack.
This thread is not meant to debate overpoweredness of casters, that is for this thread's sister thread in the classes forum.
However, having said this. Based on what you have seen of the UMD rogue and the multiple dipping noncaster, compare that to the builds you have seen attempt the mini-adventure. Can you honestly say that the caster builds took away noncasters "i matter to this party" feeling?
Kind of hard when there is no party, and the characters are clearly designed as such(the casters atleast) Why is this? Because, at these levels, the noncasters DO matter, they are just not necessary essential. At level 5, 4 clerics with different specialization could do alot better than 4 fighters.
Point to a single arcane caster who has a spellbook. Or spent gold on spells? or took craft feats (excluding scribe scroll). What spells can they cast other than what they memorized?
Look above. In an iconic party of four, the wizard has alot more room to maneuver his spells and abilities. This does mean that the fighter matters, as a defender of the wizard. Does that sound like a fair division of fun?
I must admit, even though i think this challenge is skewed, it is still alot of fun to watch.
Actually, I think your misunderstanding. He's arguing the grapple check (not the touch attack to initiate) is still a melee attack.
But from what I posted, it isn't.
I had intended it as a "fix" to your ruleset but since you want an entire rule set:
- Abilities: 32 pt buy
- Books: any 3.5 printed source book. No web enhancements, dungeon/dragon magazine material, 3rd party material.
- Level: 7
- Wealth: standard for level. No more than 1/3 your wealth on any 1 item.
- Mid level knowledge of area and ecology. (doesn't take a genius to ask the local rangers or guards what types of beasts are in the area).
- No consumables (pots, scrolls, wands etc...) and no use, command, other activated items that directly duplicate spells. (caveat: wizards and wizards only get 2 scrolls allowed since it is a class ability/virtual feat).
- Casters can loose no more than 1 caster level.
- Melee can loose no more than 1 BAB.
- Paladins/rangers count as melee
- Psychic warriors, duskblades, factorums, dragon shamans shouldn't be used
- Warlocks, dragonfire adepts, count as casters.
You do not address aging or LA races.
Why can melee not lose BAB? Does this mean that a single classed Rogue or monk will fail, as they lose their second point of BAB at level 5.
Remember, this discussion is not about melee vs non-melee, it is about casters vs noncasters.
Why can a wizard who does not have scribe scroll (look around, lots don't have it) have the ability to get a scroll?
Additionally, by not restricting things to WOTC, you are allowing 3rd party printings.
You cant prove a negative, the most glaring flaw of this thread.
You can prove a negative. It's very easy to prove negatives. This is something done in logic classes all the time. You cannot prove a universal negative. You can provide an overwhelming amount of supporting evidence against something universally, but it will not be 100%. There is no flaw with this thread's assumption.
You do not address aging or LA races.
Aging always works the same way, there are no alternate rules for dealing with it. As for LA your right I didn't address it. only LA's of +1 are allowed and no templates.
Why can melee not lose BAB? Does this mean that a single classed Rogue or monk will fail, as they lose their second point of BAB at level 5.
That was unclear on my part. I meant they can't loose more than 1 point of BAB from their classes BAB progression. example: a 3/4 BAB progression could only dip 2 levels of a 1/2 progression but could go to a full progression class. A full progression class could only dip 4 levels of a 3/4 or 2 levels of a 1/2 BAB class.
Why can a wizard who does not have scribe scroll (look around, lots don't have it) have the ability to get a scroll?
Because it is a virtual feat granted by the class, if they loose the virtual feat via alternate class feature they loose the caveat.
Additionally, by not restricting things to WOTC, you are allowing 3rd party printings.
I specifically said no 3rd party material.
Sorry I've been gone.
False life has a duration of hours/level, so it is on before combat starts, meaning I take one less volley of spikes. The stated tactic of the Manticore is that it sends a volley of spikes then closes, and I call foul on it hovering around using guerrilla tactics before it's even gotten hit once. Once it closes within 20 feet, it can't retreat out of range of a move action and a close range spell. Furthermore, with clumsy maneuverability it cannot both start and end it's turn 85 feet away from me (move action, immediate action teleport, and spell). That means that it should be doomed in four rounds (It attacks, It closes, I orb it, It charges/flees, I power word pain it, it tries guerrilla tactics I retreat back 30 ft and recover power pain, it tries again, I pain it, It attacks/flees, I turn invisible. It dies.)
I don't know what to say here. People have been calling foul if the manticore doesn't unleash all its spikes. Whichever people want to go for I am fine with.
False life was up before the battle started, however your posted tactics say that if you get hit you recast false life. Was that an error?
(Oh... something you messed up multiple times is that the orb doesn't average 13.5 damage. That was when I ran it average damage mitigated by miss chance. An orb that hits does 17.5 damage (5d6)
Sorry, I used your posted numbers.
Everything looks good, and then the snake gets free and sprints forward with all of its formidable 20 foot movement speed. Oh No! What shall we do? So it gains 10 feet on me a round I do something, and I can take a double move if it's getting too close. The web was probably overkill. (Oh, and since you can't takes attacks of oppurtunity on people who have total concealment against you, I can move away before casting web). No turning invisible. And all I need is one more power word pain on it anyway, so do that and run.
I just took your tactics and examined them.
The one time you give me the benefit of the doubt, you're wrong. I forgot the temporary hitpoints. It should get on average a tolerable 5 hp extra, however, it might drain twice. There are a few possibilities for this encounter
1)With a 26% chance of taking con drain each round, statistically it should only be drained once
2) In reality, we run the risk of being drained twice. In that case, it needs two orbs to kill it. If this happens a)so that the Wraith has temporary hitpoints untouched by the bison, I can retreat and wait an hour for them to wear off. Invisibility would be refreshed, though I would enter without it on so that I could turn invisible if I miss. b)elsewise, the character would probably weigh the risks of being drained and retreat for the day. The wraith wouldn't heal, so it would be easily killed.
So a signifacent risk of being forced to retreat by the Wraith.
If I don't though, that's one pearl. 9 total
This is not your posted tactics.
Because I only miss on a 1 for the touch AC of the carpet, I do an average of 16.5 points of damage a round. Furthermore, I could take out the carpet with a crossbow once out of it's grasp because a 20 ft movespeed is a death sentence for anything without a ranged attack. Anyway, that's 5 pearls, 14 total anyway so no crossbow.
This is not your posted tactics. You said that you used orb of electricity for the kill.
Please update your character's tactics, PM me, and I will rerun, OR, examine and show your tactics like I did (round by round) ... and then post it so that we can use that approach.
You currently cannot prepare dispel magic, as you do not have it listed as a spell in your spell book.
Slick is a Cleric. He doesn't need a spellbook.
Aging always works the same way, there are no alternate rules for dealing with it. As for LA your right I didn't address it. only LA's of +1 are allowed and no templates.
You realize that by requiring classes to keep up their BAB, this means that a character cannot take a LA and a level in a non +1 BAB class.
That was unclear on my part. I meant they can't loose more than 1 point of BAB from their classes BAB progression. example: a 3/4 BAB progression could only dip 2 levels of a 1/2 progression but could go to a full progression class. A full progression class could only dip 4 levels of a 3/4 or 2 levels of a 1/2 BAB class.
What would be the BAB requirement for my character? I have no main class. What is the point of this requirement? Why can casters lose BAB and noncaster's cannot?
Because it is a virtual feat granted by the class, if they loose the virtual feat via alternate class feature they loose the caveat.
This would be something to add though.
I specifically said no 3rd party material.
Sorry, I missed that clause.
You realize that I am trying to show you how difficult it is to make rules that appear completely fair to all parties.
Slick is a Cleric. He doesn't need a spellbook.
Too many builds. I get them mixed up sometimes. My apologies.
:surrender
If it is not at a range, it is in melee.
Simple.
Can you point me to the rule about clerics not knowing what their deity is? Or that you can choose domains other than your deity's?
Yes.
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.
Check.
Some Clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power.
Check.
Now here's the interesting thing. It doesn't mention how to choose favoured weapon for a neutral cleric without a deity. However, what it does specifically mention is that you can't choose the alignment domains if you are neutral.
Yet you seem to be saying that I have to pick an alignment favoured weapon? Where are you getting that rule?
Perhaps from spiritual weapon?
A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time.
I'm not using a spiritual weapon spell, and divine retribution doesn't have that text. And do you know what else Spiritual Weapon says?
The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below)
See below references the alignment chart. But this allows for a cleric selecting a weapon with spiritual significance.
Easily, the "Source of divine power" this cleric worships is a powerful artifact, a greatsword that favours planning and undeath that is a source of his divine power. I couldn't use it for spiritual weapon, since that constrains neutral clerics to an alignment weapon. Fortunately, divine retribution doesn't.
Where does your spell say that it grants an enhancement bonus to your fists?
It doesn't need to. It's a spell.
You realize that by requiring classes to keep up their BAB, this means that a character cannot take a LA and a level in a non +1 BAB class.
No, it would mean that a PC who took a +1 LA could not dip a class with a lower BAB progression than his own. A monk who took mineral warrior (though mineral warrior should be banned IMO) would still be viable but he couldn't dip any other non full BAB class.
What would be the BAB requirement for my character? I have no main class. What is the point of this requirement?
Your character is mostly full BAB so it would be full BAB. As you only have 2 levels of a 3/4 class you have only lost 1 BAB and thus qualify. The point of this requirement is to help avoid gishes and abusive dipping.
Why can casters lose BAB and noncaster's cannot?
Because casters have their own rules they must follow in not loosing more than 1 caster level.
This would be something to add though.
It would be, it was implied but never spelled out and since it's a rule set it should have been.
Sorry, I missed that clause.
You realize that I am trying to show you how difficult it is to make rules that appear completely fair to all parties.
Thats why I am not getting hostile with you =) There is a line (much finer on the internet since people can't get tone or body language) between constructive and destructive input. I would hope that I have been constructive as I have tried to be calm and reasonable about my points.
let me explain my thinking on this issue as it is the same one brought up in many threads on several boards.
This is the line of thinking that wealth and gear = class balance and ability.
In 2E and 2EA caster gained spells slower and in farther apart while melee was the same that it is now (more or less). When they switched to 3E they redid the thac0 system to be about the same but sped up spell progression and increased the number of spells per day. This lead to magic over dominating melee more so than it did in the past. In 3.5 The attempted to rectify this by making spells and items to simulate spells open to all classes (especially in the MIC). This has lead to basically any spell that can be cast can be bought in item form with charges per day that can be used by anyone. Magic was overpowered before and now everyone has it in abundance. The only difference is if you have to buy it or cast it yourself. It gives a false sense of balance but actually destroys it. Now you have a caster who can cast powerful spells, or a fighter who can use an item to cast a powerful spell, plus have higher HD- AC- BAB- and other abilities besides his items.
I will be very happy in 4E when they move all melee over to ToB style class design and restrict magic items.
`First bolded section "Arcane casters" -- which your cloistered cleric build is not. (I picked on arcane casters as they have spellbooks (or spells known). Clerics can choose new spells tomorrow, so can bring stuff to the table.
Well first off I didn't post any build or even make a vague suggestion at one, let alone a cleric so I can safely ignore that entire paragraph from you.
Most of your rebuttal says "I can cast alter self" which I acknowledged before you posted.
The rest of your rebuttal is "I have a high hide chance", ok. That seems valid. So you can scout basically unseen. Seem fair.
No, my rebuttal is that your out of combat ability is terrible and it's hypocritical of you to call out the casters for not having out of combat viability when you specifically said "Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus." in your very first post.
Don't forget my out-of-combat healing ... remember. My build is not supposed to be the uber-powerful build. It is a normal build that can easily expect to see game play. Look at its equipment even, it looks organic.
A 'normal build?' Given the rules options you're using and the number of books, I'd say that's a laughable statement. And while yes I did miss the healing, it's subpar out of combat utility due to the restrictions on it in my mind. Of course any other build could also have worked it in, or have had actual effective healing as some already do.
If it can compete with optimized spellcasters favorably, then that means that the spellcasters are not overpowered.
You have yet to define even remotely what you mean by overpowered. I ask again for an explicit definition of what constitutes overpowered.
Well first off I didn't post any build or even make a vague suggestion at one, let alone a cleric so I can safely ignore that entire paragraph from you.
My apologies. For whatever reason, I thought you had posted the hiding cleric build.
No, my rebuttal is that your out of combat ability is terrible and it's hypocritical of you to call out the casters for not having out of combat viability when you specifically said "Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus." in your very first post.
Have you read the many things quoted in this thread where it talks about versatility being part of the power of casters? Or how builds were asked to not metagame, yet none of the prepared arcane casters spent money on spells? Yet, these same builds, with lack of spell choices/options are held up as builds with options.
I don't think that it is hypocritical of me to call out casters for the things that people say that they can do.
A 'normal build?' Given the rules options you're using and the number of books, I'd say that's a laughable statement. And while yes I did miss the healing, it's subpar out of combat utility due to the restrictions on it in my mind. Of course any other build could also have worked it in, or have had actual effective healing as some already do.
How could other builds have worked it in? What would they have given up?
You have yet to define even remotely what you mean by overpowered. I ask again for an explicit definition of what constitutes overpowered.
I have said multiple times
Overpowered casters would be if the casters perform better than noncasters.
Balanced would be if they both perform similarly
Underpowered casters would be if they casters perform worse than noncasters.
UMD is a class skill for rogues. Saying that a class cannot use its class abilities is cheesy.
One of the arguments against the UMD tactic is the gp cost it entails. If the caster is spending the same gold as a noncaster, then that argument disappears.
In my mind the cheesy part is assuming that you can always make the Use Magic Device check when needed. As far as I know only two classes can take 10 on that check. The artificer and the warlock.
What about the chance of a mishap? I've haven't seen that taken into account either.
Also if you get unto scrolls arcane spell failure might apply.
Read what I wrote and quoted carefully. At no point in time do I say that initiating a grapple is not an attack. The point is that it deals no damage.
The damage is done later in the round, from a grapple check.
Look up the definition of attack in the back of the Player's Handbook. It might help end this argument, one way or another.
As I read it, grapple being a attack or not is up to the dungeon master, as the entry is a bit ambiguous.
Let me say it differently, a 4th level monk gains Ki StrikeKi Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.
Their fists do not radiate magic, yet they overcome Dr/magic.
Or, from the SRD (Damage Reduction)Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Your argument is that spells are not magic?
It seem really odd to say so, but you might have a case for that by the Rules As Written. However, I see it as up to the dungeon master to determine as spells are magical by nature.
Where does your spell say that it grants an enhancement bonus to your fists?
It doesn't really have to. Magic is the determining factor for the damage reduction to be overcome, not an enhancement bonus. Several ways exist to do this without such, in my view the spell should have that effect as well.
Most of the criticism of my build (which has been up 1 week longer than the next longest one) is either not valid (per consensus) or has been fixed (missed maneuver prereq, posted less skill points/hps than i should have).
My criticism would be a bit different. Maneuvers favor single opponents and short battles as they are hard to recover. The damage surge that they give also favor the system that you used.
Also I think if the dragon was used intelligently and altered its lair to match its natural strengths such as a big pool of murky water that it can swim/hide in and it actually using magic items, no build that I've seen should have been able to defeat it.
I would like to see a adventure that has spellcasters mixed with noncasters in it. As it is the challenge has been noncasters vs. noncasters. If each side was optimized to the same level, the challenges would have had a 50% chance of victory on either side.
[edit]
This might help.
Making a good arcane caster isn't too difficult if you have some tools to work with beforehand. The best thing you can do for him is to steer him to some of the handbooks in the Char Op boards - these will suggest spells/feats/PrC's that work nicely together.
Here's some threads you can send him to:
The Wizard's Handbook: A general look at Wizards with lots of options clearly ranked by color.
Being Batman: Logicninja's guide to wizards: An off site handbook that remains quite relevant to date. Very opinionated and a fun read with lots of good information as well.
Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God:My own shameless plug to my own guide to wizards. Also written in an opinionated style - the guide is mainly based on using that Big Stupid Goliath as your pawn on your own chessboard battlefield - I think it might suit your player well.
Mastering The Malconvoker: Also a shameless plug. The guide is written in a more academic style than "Being a God" and is specifically tailored to turning your wizard into a summoner using the Malconvoker PrC.
The Conjurer's Handbook:A specific look into Conjuration spells, PrC's, Feats and Class options. The spell evaluation section is especially useful.
Take a browse through these - and pass anything you like onto your player - hopefully there will be some information there able to help him come up with his own wizard build that will be an effective contributer to the group.
The one thing I would stress about wizards is this - don't base your character around doing HP damage - he will never measure up to the Goliath. Much better to control the battlefield - lining up the enemies backwards and prone for the Goliath to mow through.
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Show
Whisper Gnome Druid 7:
Stats:
Str: 8 (0 pb) -2 racial = 6
Dex: 8 (0 pb) +2 racial = 10
Con: 16 (10 pts) +2 racial +2 enhancement = 20
Wis: 18 (16 pts) +1 level +2 enhancement = 21
Int 14: (6 pts) = 14
Cha: 8 (0 pts) -2 racial = 6
Level up goes into wis.
Items: +2 periapht of wis, +2 amulet of con: 8k gp
Wilding Clasp: 4k gp
Handy Haversack: 2k gp
Belt of giant strength +2: 4k gp
1k gp unspent.
Feats:
1) Extend Spell
3) Improved Initiative
6) Natural spell
Animal Companion:
Dire Ape
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+13 (35 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 15 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+10
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +5, Move Silently +4, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or company (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds.
Combat
Dire apes attack anything that enters their territory, even other dire apes. If an opponent’s armor foils a dire ape’s attacks, the creature will attempt to grapple and pin, then rend the prone opponent.
Rend (Ex)
A dire ape that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d6+10 points of damage.
Skills
Dire apes have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Equipment: Belt of giant strenght +2
Druid statblock:
HD: 8+6d8+35=64
Init: +4
Speed: 30
AC: 10 base +1 small =11
BAB/Grapple: +5/ +1
Skills maxed:
Concentration
Handle Animal
Listen
Spot
Diplomacy
Know(nature)
Spells per day:
6/6/4/3/2
Stats:
Str: 8 (0 pb) -2 racial = 6
Dex: 8 (0 pb) +2 racial = 10
Con: 16 (10 pts) +2 racial +2 enhancement = 20
Wis: 18 (16 pts) +1 level +2 enhancement = 21
Int 14: (6 pts) = 14
Cha: 8 (0 pts) -2 racial = 6
Level up goes into wis.
Items: +2 periapht of wis, +2 amulet of con: 8k gp
Wilding Clasp: 4k gp
Handy Haversack: 2k gp
Belt of giant strength +2: 4k gp
1k gp unspent.
Feats:
1) Extend Spell
3) Improved Initiative
6) Natural spell
Animal Companion:
Dire Ape
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+13 (35 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 15 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+10
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +5, Move Silently +4, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or company (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds.
Combat
Dire apes attack anything that enters their territory, even other dire apes. If an opponent’s armor foils a dire ape’s attacks, the creature will attempt to grapple and pin, then rend the prone opponent.
Rend (Ex)
A dire ape that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d6+10 points of damage.
Skills
Dire apes have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Equipment: Belt of giant strenght +2
Druid statblock:
HD: 8+6d8+35=64
Init: +4
Speed: 30
AC: 10 base +1 small =11
BAB/Grapple: +5/ +1
Skills maxed:
Concentration
Handle Animal
Listen
Spot
Diplomacy
Know(nature)
Spells per day:
6/6/4/3/2
Question: Do you count a melee combat-oriented Cleric as a spellcaster for your purposes? If so, I think I could make a cleric that would stand a chance.
I'd consider it. Being able to completely replace a noncaster melee is overpowering IMO.
Look up the definition of attack in the back of the Player's Handbook. It might help end this argument, one way or another.
As I read it, grapple being a attack or not is up to the dungeon master, as the entry is a bit ambiguous.
Sigh ....
Please, in your mind, separate the grapple check (an opposed roll that might result in damage) from initiating the grapple (melee touch attack).
If you do that ... then there is no argument.
Your argument is that spells are not magic?
It seem really odd to say so, but you might have a case for that by the Rules As Written. However, I see it as up to the dungeon master to determine as spells are magical by nature.
No. Point to the spell he used. Look at the target. It is himself, not the wraith.
Look at what the spell does (it increases the damage the fists do). The spell in no way interacts with the wraith.
Or -- to put it differently. Can you drop a wall of iron (results of a spell) on a wraith -- or does it go through the wraith? What if you take that wall of iron and fabricate it? Is the sword able to attack the wraith?
It doesn't really have to. Magic is the determining factor for the damage reduction to be overcome, not an enhancement bonus. Several ways exist to do this without such, in my view the spell should have that effect as well.
Spells dealing damage affect the wraith. That spell deals no damage. It increases the amount that the character deals.
Or -- to put it differently. If you cast "Enlarge Person" on a fighter. He radiates magic. The spell can be dispelled. It increases his damage. Can he attack a wraith?
My criticism would be a bit different. Maneuvers favor single opponents and short battles as they are hard to recover. The damage surge that they give also favor the system that you used.
I don't know what to say. In the pre-cr 5 encounters, I had time to recoved maneuvers. In the cr5 vs the dragon/rug I recovered. It doesn't seem to be huge.
Also I think if the dragon was used intelligently and altered its lair to match its natural strengths such as a big pool of murky water that it can swim/hide in and it actually using magic items, no build that I've seen should have been able to defeat it.
I would like to see a adventure that has spellcasters mixed with noncasters in it. As it is the challenge has been noncasters vs. noncasters. If each side was optimized to the same level, the challenges would have had a 50% chance of victory on either side.
Then post a CR5 mini-adventure like I have asked someone to do.
Use anti-caster, anti-melee tactics.
Question: Do you count a melee combat-oriented Cleric as a spellcaster for your purposes? If so, I think I could make a cleric that would stand a chance.
If the cleric has only caster levels, then yes. It counts.
I believe Argaud already posted a UMD rogue.
Imagine very much the same rogue using ray of stupidity on the manticore and the snake, a damage ray on the wraith and the rug, and shriveling touch on the dragon. There you go.
I don't think the rogue would do very well due to the low DC of itemized spells. (Although some of those spells do not allow DC, so maybe he would).
However, it is not really necessary, since the rogue passed the whole gauntlet with just buffs and wands of healing, which aren't attack spells.
It is precisely with attack spells where a spellcaster can do things an UMD character cannot, yet I am not seeing many of those. It seems at level 5 it is better for casters to buff a bit and try to be warriors, the casters that have used attack spells have not done it too well. If that is the casters best tactic, though, then they are no more overpowered than anyone with access to UMD.
To emphasize the point:
Anyone can use magic.
Anyone can use spells from wands, scrolls, etc.
But spellcasters can do things with those spells that items cannot do, if that is not what makes them more powerful, then they are not more powerful.
Too many builds. I get them mixed up sometimes. My apologies.
:surrender
Perfectly understandabe.
However, I'd like to discuss this:
11: CrimsonDeath: Cloistered Cleric - Original attempt died to grappled. New post is heavily reliant upon current dungeon set up (i.e. highly metagaming) as it stands, he wins 4, ties the last. New post also changed equipment to take care of previously lost encounters (i.e. metagaming)
Is my "reliance on dungeon setup" a reference to my reliance on being in the dark? Did you take into account my use of the No Light cantrip to deal with that? Yes, Everburning Torches are common adventuring equipment for characters who need light, but mine doesn't. Perhaps they're common in the dungeons you visit, but I have yet to enter a dungeon that had one (and just about any party I've been in would've collected them all to sell back in town anyway).
Also, the change in equipment was due to two facts that would've been noticed earlier in the character's career: The Travel Domain doesn't protect from being grappled, and an Elixir of Sneaking is far cheaper (and, in the short term, more effective) than Boots of Elvenkind. I did my best not to metagame with consumables (I have far more Elixirs and Wand charges than I use), and the Anklet of Translocation is a staple in my caster builds-- that is to say, ones I actually play (I didn't include it originally because I was wrong about how the Travel domain worked).
It is precisely with attack spells where a spellcaster can do things an UMD character cannot, yet I am not seeing many of those. It seems at level 5 it is better for casters to buff a bit and try to be warriors, the casters that have used attack spells have not done it too well.
Keep in mind that these casters are soloing this adventure. I imagine that using attack spells is probably better than buffing and fighting when you have three other people cutting away at enemy hit points.
Between fighter attacks, rogue sneak attacks, and either cleric attacks/spells or druid wildshape attacks/spells, a wizard using attack spells should be fine. Especially with a warrior in the way of the monster.
I'm honestly not sure why we are even considering a caster walking around by himself and taking on challenges. Or why the casters are buffing themselves up. In the case of the former, it doesn't simulate actual gameplay, and in the case of the latter, that's hardly the strongest option available to casters (unless it is and we're seeing that now).
Somewhere, the focus got lost in this thread. We need to settle on what constitutes an overpowered character and then move on to demonstrations. Perhaps we should also build three other PC's filling the traditional roles (warrior/rogue/healer or warrior/rogue/caster) and see how the overpowered caster behaves in an actual party, when he is not the only focus of his enemy.
Remember though that it's not as important at the moment how well the caster does relative to how well some other non-caster does. In other words, the party members are not there for comparison but rather for the integrity of our findings. First, we must see how overwhelmingly the caster performs in a party. Then we can test non-casters in a similar fashion and go from there.
P.S. I have given up on my caster build. It literally blows my mind trying to figure out what spells to learn and what spells to prepare. Hence why I have only played one wizard ever and never looked back after the character died three minutes into the game. Apologies.
Lets compare:
Level 5 wizard (per PHB) with 20 int.
Spell slots:
0: 4
1: 5
2: 3
3: 2
Level 5 specialist wizard (per PHB) with 20 int
Spell slots:
0: 5
1: 6
2: 4
3: 3
Level 5 focused specialist wizard (per PHB/Complete mage) with 20 int
0: 6
1: 7
2: 5
3: 4
Your character
0: 6
1: 8
2: 6
3: 5
Methinks someone forgot to lose a generic spell per level.
0-4base, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain.
1-3 base, 2 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (8)
2-2 base, 1 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (7)
3-1 base, 1 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (5)
Though I did say, I'm likely doing something wrong. I re-read the domain caster ability, and have to drop it because I can't also specialize. So I'll go through that again.
Shield is 1 min/level ... how soon before you reach the manticore do you cast it? Unseen servant's movement speed is 15'. It can only do one task at a time. So you are walking really slowly.
When it's in sight. Unseen servant can move then move, for 30 total. No odder than the fighters who ran through on one fly potion.
How do you start out with an unseen servant (5 hour duration) without expending a spell slot?
Fairly sure I had.
Assuming that the manticore is attacking the shapeless form holding the lantern, why is he moving in 50' towards you instead of attacking from a distance?
Because beyond 60 feet, it can't see me. It can fire blindly, I suppose, but at what? I'd not acted yet. If I were to assume it does not move towards me, I can fireball it from afar, then move in to scorching ray it after.
How is the unseen servant pointing its lamp at the enemy? Additionally, it cannot see the manticore, it was not commanded to do so.
When you ready an action, your iniative changes to right before the action that caused you to react. This means you cannot scorching ray him then fireball him.
SRD: your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
So don't I have initiative just ahead of the manticore, in this case, and not after it? Talking is a free action, and it's what I can use to make simple commands to the unseen servant, such as "Point lantern up and left."
Please only add similar chances together (init chance, hit chance, save chance, etc). Adding everything together destroys any semblance of legitimacy.
Why is this?
Against the snake.
How is the unseen servant deciding these things? What action are you taking to control the unseen servant? When you are 45 feet away from the unseen servant it winks out (per spell description). I am sure there are other similar errors in this.
At this point in time, you have no unseen servant anymore. So you will need to redo things from this point on.
Fair enough.
Is my "reliance on dungeon setup" a reference to my reliance on being in the dark? Did you take into account my use of the No Light cantrip to deal with that? Yes, Everburning Torches are common adventuring equipment for characters who need light, but mine doesn't. Perhaps they're common in the dungeons you visit, but I have yet to enter a dungeon that had one (and just about any party I've been in would've collected them all to sell back in town anyway).
Also, the change in equipment was due to two facts that would've been noticed earlier in the character's career: The Travel Domain doesn't protect from being grappled, and an Elixir of Sneaking is far cheaper (and, in the short term, more effective) than Boots of Elvenkind. I did my best not to metagame with consumables (I have far more Elixirs and Wand charges than I use), and the Anklet of Translocation is a staple in my caster builds-- that is to say, ones I actually play (I didn't include it originally because I was wrong about how the Travel domain worked).
Ok ... if thats the case ... then congratulation. (changing first post)
My opinion was that you had metagamed -- however, based on what you just said, it looks like i am wrong.
0-4base, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain.
1-3 base, 2 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (8)
2-2 base, 1 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (7)
3-1 base, 1 int, -1 focus, +3 focused specialist, +1 domain. (5)
Though I did say, I'm likely doing something wrong. I re-read the domain caster ability, and have to drop it because I can't also specialize. So I'll go through that again.
Ah, the last one was from domain. Gotcha.
When it's in sight. Unseen servant can move then move, for 30 total. No odder than the fighters who ran through on one fly potion.
The only fighter who did, was me. I reposted without it with no change. Also, a caster counted up the number of rounds, and the duration was ok.
Fairly sure I had.
You might have, I guess I am used to seeing things spelled out.
Because beyond 60 feet, it can't see me. It can fire blindly, I suppose, but at what? I'd not acted yet. If I were to assume it does not move towards me, I can fireball it from afar, then move in to scorching ray it after.
Makes sense - but remember that the unseen servant cannot see the manticore to aim the lantern at it. So it cannot see you, like you cannot see it.
So don't I have initiative just ahead of the manticore, in this case, and not after it? Talking is a free action, and it's what I can use to make simple commands to the unseen servant, such as "Point lantern up and left."
I think my brain died this weekend. I have just been getting things wrong left and right.
Why is this?
Because it means that the more a creature hits the worse it does vs spells etc.
I may go back and redo all of the math using the other threshold method, but don't agree that it is not a legitimate method of use. The more I win initiative, the more I lose somewhere else, the more they win somewhere else, etc.
I just found out how to remove all objections
SpC page 24 - Balor Nimbus. It is persistable! Why did nobody tell me about this spell before...
Drop the Stone Fist, buy a magical +1 morningstar, drop the +2 wisdom item (will reduce my parties to 8/3, but my main will go up to +5, so it'll be 8/5/3), and persist Balor Nimbus.
Would you like me to re-run the numbers, or does this make it obvious that the cleric can win?
(Oh, and before you say "Oh, but that is so metagamy, preparing and persisting an anti-grapple spell", assuming I agree with your interpretation of the rules, I have no way to damage a creature that grapples me, and it makes sense. Plus the spell I was persisting before was admittedly pretty bland).
Ok ... if thats the case ... then congratulation. (changing first post)
My opinion was that you had metagamed -- however, based on what you just said, it looks like i am wrong.
Well, I'm sorry you got that impression. Thanks for being so understanding, though.
I don't think the rogue would do very well due to the low DC of itemized spells. (Although some of those spells do not allow DC, so maybe he would).
However, it is not really necessary, since the rogue passed the whole gauntlet with just buffs and wands of healing, which aren't attack spells.
It is precisely with attack spells where a spellcaster can do things an UMD character cannot, yet I am not seeing many of those. It seems at level 5 it is better for casters to buff a bit and try to be warriors, the casters that have used attack spells have not done it too well. If that is the casters best tactic, though, then they are no more overpowered than anyone with access to UMD.
To emphasize the point:
Anyone can use magic.
Anyone can use spells from wands, scrolls, etc.
But spellcasters can do things with those spells that items cannot do, if that is not what makes them more powerful, then they are not more powerful.
Most ranged/melee touch spells don't call for a saving throw, including all I listed. That's why rogues excel in using them.
All spells that call for a DC roll are obviously better in the hands of a full caster. Sadly, no caster builds so far relied exclusively on save-or-lose spells. Instead, most caster builds presented so far are effectively gish builds easily duplicated/exceeded with Alter Self from UMD and fighter/rogue BAB, feats, etc.
The caster build I like most is Ikeren's DMM cleric. The spells he uses can be duplicated by UMD, but without Persisting the effect would be worthless. Ikeren's build demostrates unique advantages of casters over noncasters.
The other caster build of note so far is Readerofposts power pearl-er. It's the only build that heavily used another caster-only advantage: magic craft feats.
Somewhere, the focus got lost in this thread. We need to settle on what constitutes an overpowered character and then move on to demonstrations. Perhaps we should also build three other PC's filling the traditional roles (warrior/rogue/healer or warrior/rogue/caster) and see how the overpowered caster behaves in an actual party, when he is not the only focus of his enemy.
Something I wouldn't mind seeing is the two side, using the exact same group (same builds and everything), running scenarios seperately, and watch how each uses the groups resources.
OMG!
I just found out how to remove all objections
SpC page 24 - Balor Nimbus. It is persistable! Why did nobody tell me about this spell before...
Drop the Stone Fist, buy a magical +1 morningstar, drop the +2 wisdom item (will reduce my parties to 8/3, but my main will go up to +5, so it'll be 8/5/3), and persist Balor Nimbus.
Would you like me to re-run the numbers, or does this make it obvious that the cleric can win?
(Oh, and before you say "Oh, but that is so metagamy, preparing and persisting an anti-grapple spell", assuming I agree with your interpretation of the rules, I have no way to damage a creature that grapples me, and it makes sense. Plus the spell I was persisting before was admittedly pretty bland).
Just adjust the build ... PM me and let me take a quick look, but we knew previously that you were almost there ... (I said so once or twice).
If nothing major jumps out at me, then I don't see how you could fail -- as it was, you only lost to the grapplers.
Just make sure that you have enough hps after battling the wraith to survive the dragon.
If this works, we will have 3-4 casters who will have succeeded (or close enough as matters)
Check.
Check.
What you've shown is a cleric who does not have a deity, but rather a ethos (which is usually ignored and forgotten, which it should not be, as it is a restriction of playing a cleric). This is not the same as having a deity you don't know about who happens to also have a favored weapon that is beneficial to you (how does a great sword even fit with planning and undeath). As you're cleric doesn't even have a deity, the divine retribution spell should not function at all for you.
Now here's the interesting thing. It doesn't mention how to choose favoured weapon for a neutral cleric without a deity. However, what it does specifically mention is that you can't choose the alignment domains if you are neutral.
Thats because an ethos... a belief structure, can't have personal preference, it doesn't have a consciousness. Spiritual weapon sets the precedent that, if you do not have a deity, then personal alignment dictates what the weapon will be, but as you don't seem to agree that applies to divine retribution (since it has no mention of alignment determining weapon), that only leaves the option of not being able to use the spell as a deityless cleric.
Yet you seem to be saying that I have to pick an alignment favoured weapon? Where are you getting that rule?
Perhaps from spiritual weapon?
It's not that you "have to pick an alignment favoured weapon", it's that spiritual weapon sets the precedent for determining favoured weapons of deityless clerics via alignment. Divine retribution does not offer this option, thus, it can be argued a deity is required in order to make use of the spell.
I'm not using a spiritual weapon spell, and divine retribution doesn't have that text. And do you know what else Spiritual Weapon says?
Correct, it doesn't have that text. It only grants benefits based on deities favoured weapon, so, without a deity, the spell has no effect.
See below references the alignment chart. But this allows for a cleric selecting a weapon with spiritual significance.
Easily, the "Source of divine power" this cleric worships is a powerful artifact, a greatsword that favours planning and undeath that is a source of his divine power. I couldn't use it for spiritual weapon, since that constrains neutral clerics to an alignment weapon. Fortunately, divine retribution doesn't.
your creating rules to allow you to do this. There is no rule that allows a cleric of a belief/ethos to also choose a favoured weapon for that belief.
Concerns:
No spellcaster has listed what was in their spellbook and most have no gold to spend on additional spells. This leads me to believe that they do not have a wide range of spells, which flies in the face of almost every post that talks about wizards.
I know I made sure to not only list what was in my spellbook, but count how many pages were taken up to ensure that I didn't need two spellbooks ...
Correct, it doesn't have that text. It only grants benefits based on deities favoured weapon, so, without a deity, the spell has no effect.
Interesting position, and very defensible. I'll concede the point. I can still win without it. But of the 3 DM's I've talked two, all three of them allow clerics without Deities to choose their favoured weapons.
Encounter 4: Huge rug.
[sblock]
Per Encounter, it surprises me.
Surprise Round:
It attacks me for 14 damage, initiating a grapple.
My CQF feat goes off, I do 21.7 damage, beating its grapple.
End of Surprise Round: Me: 7.4, It: 62.3
[snip]
Let me know if anyone sees any error in this fight.
I know it has been a while sense this post but you cannot use the attack of opportunity that is provided by Close Quarters Fighting in this situation, as you are flat-footed.
[edit]
2: Argaud: Rogue: Tactics, turn into a dwarven ancestor for the win. - wins all fights
You have the link set up wrong. It you want to reply it works fine, but not so much with the viewing. Also if you use the [noparse][post] [/post][/noparse] tags it will be quicker to type out.
Example. [post=14465405]Rogue[/post] [/edit]
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
This builds requirements are:
1) Persist Spell (Multiple, Complete Arcane)
2) Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine)
3) SRD (Cleric, Normal items, human)
4) Player Handbook 2
Extra things:
Faith Healing (Magic of Faerun). Useful for in and out of battle healing, although it could be done, slightly more expensive, with a wand of CLW or healing belt (MIC).
Spell Compendium (Domains): It can be done without planning and undeath, but that is sub-optimal.
Spell Compendium: Spell Balor Nimbus against grapplers.
MIC: Reliquary Holy Symbol (pg120 MIC) = +3 turn attempts.
Unearthed Arcana: Equally, this can be done without flaws, but also suboptimal.
If you are using JUST Core and Complete, you can still do this: your build would look like: Human: Extend, 1st level Persist, 3rd DMM Persist, with only CHA+3 turn attempts, or a Charisma of 18 required. 14 base + Eagles Splendor can achieve that, gaining 1 persist - Divine Retaliation or Channelled Divine Shield. It will obviously be far less powerful than this build, which uses a wider array for true optimziation, but DR 10/Evil or Counter attacks with BAB Wis+CL (uncapped!) Is hard to consider weak in any place.
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8 - 2 = 6
WIS: 15+1=16
CHA: 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Int)
Trait: Passionate (+1 fort, -1 will)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 22 (19+3 from Reliquary Holy Symbol)
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
Masterwork Fullplate (1650 gp)
Masterwork Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (160 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
+1 Morningstar (2308 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000 gp)
Spent: 6118
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp)
Wand of Faith Healing (750 gp)
Total: 7618.
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2+1 =21, touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 8/3/7
BAB: 3
Skills: 8+2+2+2+2 = 16. 5 knowledge religion, 5 spellcraft, 6 concentration.
Spells Prepared:
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Divine Favour, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain) Aid, Balor Nimbus***, Resist Energy***
3- Channeled Divine Shield, Divine Retaliation, Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Blade of Blood: Swift action for extra damage
Balor Nimbus is from spell compendium, and is an anti-grapple spell.
***For people who think it is meta-gamey for me to prepare an anti-grapple spell: This cleric can pretty much only be damaged by two things: Grapples, and Energy damage. Subsequently, it is reasonable to think that I would prepare resist energy to protect from that reasoning as well, since it covers this characters final remaining weakness. Also, I could have used Clairvoyance to help me track down the dragon and discover it’s colour, or discover that a dragon existed, 2-3 days ago. Indeed, why else would this adventurer be approaching the dragons lair?***
Buffing up:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Divine Retaliation
Persist Balor Nimbus
HP 41:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 8/3/4
BAB: 3
Attack: +5, 1d8+2, Divine Retaliation: +8/+3, 1d8+4
DR 10/Evil
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
This builds requirements are:
1) Persist Spell (Multiple, Complete Arcane)
2) Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine)
3) SRD (Cleric, Normal items, human)
4) Player Handbook 2
Extra things:
Faith Healing (Magic of Faerun). Useful for in and out of battle healing, although it could be done, slightly more expensive, with a wand of CLW or healing belt (MIC).
Spell Compendium (Domains): It can be done without planning and undeath, but that is sub-optimal.
Spell Compendium: Spell Balor Nimbus against grapplers.
MIC: Reliquary Holy Symbol (pg120 MIC) = +3 turn attempts.
Unearthed Arcana: Equally, this can be done without flaws, but also suboptimal.
If you are using JUST Core and Complete, you can still do this: your build would look like: Human: Extend, 1st level Persist, 3rd DMM Persist, with only CHA+3 turn attempts, or a Charisma of 18 required. 14 base + Eagles Splendor can achieve that, gaining 1 persist - Divine Retaliation or Channelled Divine Shield. It will obviously be far less powerful than this build, which uses a wider array for true optimziation, but DR 10/Evil or Counter attacks with BAB Wis+CL (uncapped!) Is hard to consider weak in any place.
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8 - 2 = 6
WIS: 15+1=16
CHA: 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Int)
Trait: Passionate (+1 fort, -1 will)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 22 (19+3 from Reliquary Holy Symbol)
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
Masterwork Fullplate (1650 gp)
Masterwork Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (160 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
+1 Morningstar (2308 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000 gp)
Spent: 6118
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp)
Wand of Faith Healing (750 gp)
Total: 7618.
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2+1 =21, touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 8/3/7
BAB: 3
Skills: 8+2+2+2+2 = 16. 5 knowledge religion, 5 spellcraft, 6 concentration.
Spells Prepared:
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Divine Favour, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain) Aid, Balor Nimbus***, Resist Energy***
3- Channeled Divine Shield, Divine Retaliation, Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Blade of Blood: Swift action for extra damage
Balor Nimbus is from spell compendium, and is an anti-grapple spell.
***For people who think it is meta-gamey for me to prepare an anti-grapple spell: This cleric can pretty much only be damaged by two things: Grapples, and Energy damage. Subsequently, it is reasonable to think that I would prepare resist energy to protect from that reasoning as well, since it covers this characters final remaining weakness. Also, I could have used Clairvoyance to help me track down the dragon and discover it’s colour, or discover that a dragon existed, 2-3 days ago. Indeed, why else would this adventurer be approaching the dragons lair?***
Buffing up:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Divine Retaliation
Persist Balor Nimbus
HP 41:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 8/3/4
BAB: 3
Attack: +5, 1d8+2, Divine Retaliation: +8/+3, 1d8+4
DR 10/Evil
Crypt of Creepiness
Rules:
1. You know that it is a crypt and have as much times as you need to prepare.
2. 1 minute between encounters. This accounts for puzzles and times needed to move from place to place.
3. For simplicity each encounter occurs in a room that measures 40 by 40 by 40.
4. You get a clue.
He waits alone.
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
1. You know that it is a crypt and have as much times as you need to prepare.
2. 1 minute between encounters. This accounts for puzzles and times needed to move from place to place.
3. For simplicity each encounter occurs in a room that measures 40 by 40 by 40.
4. You get a clue.
He waits alone.
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
Encounter 1
2 bone creatures. (Book of Vile Darkness page 184)
Frack
Bone elf(undead (augmented humanoid)) sorcerer 4 (Cr 5)
HD 4d12 (24)
Str 10 +0
Con -
Dex 18 +4 (+2 +4)
Int 11 +1
Wis 9 -1
Cha 14 +2 (+1)
Attacks
Rapier +7 (+3 Dex, +1 masterwork), 1d8 +1 ( +1 master work)
2 claws +6 1d4
saves: Fort +1 (+0) Ref 5 (+4), Will 3 (-1)
AC 16 (10 + 4 Dex, +2 Natural, +1 bracers, additional +4 with Mage Armor not included)
Skills: Concentration 8, Knowledge Arcana 8
Feats: Draconic Heritage (White), Draconic Breath (Cold), Finesse Weapon: Rapier (3.0 holdover)
Items: Spell Component Pouch, masterwork rapier, Bracers of Armor +1
Spell Per Day, 6, 6, 3 DC 12 + Spell Level
Spells known 0th (6), Resistance, Acid Splash, Daze (?), Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Prestidigitation.
1st (3), Grease, Mage Armor, ray of Enfeeblement
2nd (1), Web
Special Qualities
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to cold
1/2 damage from piercing/slashing weapons.
undead traits
+2 vs cold.
Can convert spells into a 30-foot cone that deals 2d6 per spell level, Reflex save for half equal to the spells save.
Tactics: Frack try to nerf you with each Web, or Ray of Enfeeblement. He will also convert spells into cold as Frick is immune he doesn't have to worry about hitting him.
Frick
Bone Human(undead (augmented humanoid)) fighter 3 (Cr 4)
HD 3d10 18 (15 base +3)
Str 14 +2(+1)
Dex 16 +3 (+4)
Con -
Int 11 +0
Wis 10 +0
Cha 9 -1
Attacks
Spiked Chain +7 (+3 Dex, +1 Focus, +1 masterwork), 2d4 +3 (+2 Str, +1 Masterwork)
2 claws +6 1d4 +2
saves: Fort + 3 (+0), Ref 4 (+3), Will +1 (=0)
AC 19 (10 +3 Dex, +2 Natural +4 chain mail,)
Skills: Jump 7, Intimidate 7
Feats: Weapon Finesse: Spiked Chain, Toughness, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Improved Intuitive, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Items: masterwork Spiked Chain, Chain mail
Special Qualities
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to cold
1/2 damage from piercing/slashing weapons.
undead traits
2 bone creatures. (Book of Vile Darkness page 184)
Frack
Bone elf(undead (augmented humanoid)) sorcerer 4 (Cr 5)
HD 4d12 (24)
Str 10 +0
Con -
Dex 18 +4 (+2 +4)
Int 11 +1
Wis 9 -1
Cha 14 +2 (+1)
Attacks
Rapier +7 (+3 Dex, +1 masterwork), 1d8 +1 ( +1 master work)
2 claws +6 1d4
saves: Fort +1 (+0) Ref 5 (+4), Will 3 (-1)
AC 16 (10 + 4 Dex, +2 Natural, +1 bracers, additional +4 with Mage Armor not included)
Skills: Concentration 8, Knowledge Arcana 8
Feats: Draconic Heritage (White), Draconic Breath (Cold), Finesse Weapon: Rapier (3.0 holdover)
Items: Spell Component Pouch, masterwork rapier, Bracers of Armor +1
Spell Per Day, 6, 6, 3 DC 12 + Spell Level
Spells known 0th (6), Resistance, Acid Splash, Daze (?), Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Prestidigitation.
1st (3), Grease, Mage Armor, ray of Enfeeblement
2nd (1), Web
Special Qualities
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to cold
1/2 damage from piercing/slashing weapons.
undead traits
+2 vs cold.
Can convert spells into a 30-foot cone that deals 2d6 per spell level, Reflex save for half equal to the spells save.
Tactics: Frack try to nerf you with each Web, or Ray of Enfeeblement. He will also convert spells into cold as Frick is immune he doesn't have to worry about hitting him.
Frick
Bone Human(undead (augmented humanoid)) fighter 3 (Cr 4)
HD 3d10 18 (15 base +3)
Str 14 +2(+1)
Dex 16 +3 (+4)
Con -
Int 11 +0
Wis 10 +0
Cha 9 -1
Attacks
Spiked Chain +7 (+3 Dex, +1 Focus, +1 masterwork), 2d4 +3 (+2 Str, +1 Masterwork)
2 claws +6 1d4 +2
saves: Fort + 3 (+0), Ref 4 (+3), Will +1 (=0)
AC 19 (10 +3 Dex, +2 Natural +4 chain mail,)
Skills: Jump 7, Intimidate 7
Feats: Weapon Finesse: Spiked Chain, Toughness, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Improved Intuitive, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Items: masterwork Spiked Chain, Chain mail
Special Qualities
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to cold
1/2 damage from piercing/slashing weapons.
undead traits
Pre-knowledge
Hydra for the killin' & phat l3wtz, cave to the N of town 15 miles
The entrance is guarded by a powerful shaman riding a celestial lion!! Besides, that cave would take days to venture to the bottom of...*
Goal is hydra kill & return of Amulet of the Hydra-loot
*This information is false, but the locals are drunks and this is as much as they know. Actual avg time through should be about an hour I'd think, though if you can provide adequate explanation of tactics to go faster that can be shaved down. Say, 20 minute minimum.
Hydra for the killin' & phat l3wtz, cave to the N of town 15 miles
The entrance is guarded by a powerful shaman riding a celestial lion!! Besides, that cave would take days to venture to the bottom of...*
Goal is hydra kill & return of Amulet of the Hydra-loot
*This information is false, but the locals are drunks and this is as much as they know. Actual avg time through should be about an hour I'd think, though if you can provide adequate explanation of tactics to go faster that can be shaved down. Say, 20 minute minimum.
I really do want to try CR 6 encounters. I think this cleric can take them, and the melee can not.
There, certainly no disputes this time? It was only a matter of spending an hour or two combing books for the right spell...
What are your skills? You casted a lot of spells in melee with the dragon.
Even if you maxed Concentration that is just a +10 you have there.
Interesting position, and very defensible. I'll concede the point. I can still win without it. But of the 3 DM's I've talked two, all three of them allow clerics without Deities to choose their favoured weapons.
Not saying you're/they're in the wrong for allowing it, but it is a decision that allows deityless clerics even more power (your use of it is a perfect example). If enough favourable decisions like this are made for unclear rules, that is one possibility for the discrepancy in our opinions on the power level of casters. Hmm?
build, etc...
Only issues I can see are
1) you don't factor the con loss into your Max HP's (but this doesn't result in your dying at any point, you always remain over 11HP, but given the other issues, it may come into effect)
2) you use aid to raise your max HP's, which is not what Aid does. It grants you temp HP's, once those are gone, they can not be healed back. (PHB 146. Temp HP's. 2nd paragraph)
3) you use 2 wands and a weapon repeatedly, while also making use of your shield. You take no move actions to retrieve or put away any of your wands/weapons and you don't have a haversack, glove of storing or wand bracelet to speed things up.
4) divine favour (not persisted) ends round 14, not sure if that was factored in.
Not sure if any of these issues will result in a loss against the dragon (I actually doubt it will, but it will extend the fight a fair bit longer), it doesn't change the fights against the rug or wraith (fight with rug comes a LOT closer though ;P )
I'm also not familiar with Balors nimbus, so I can't really comment on it's use. (don't have access to my Spell compendium).
I know it has been a while sense this post but you cannot use the attack of opportunity that is provided by Close Quarters Fighting in this situation, as you are flat-footed.
Normally I would agree with you, but I have combat reflexes, so I can make an AoO while flatfooted.
You have the link set up wrong. It you want to reply it works fine, but not so much with the viewing. Also if you use the [noparse][post] [/post][/noparse] tags it will be quicker to type out.
Example. [post=14465405]Rogue[/post] [/edit]
Ah, I was just copying the URL from the top of the page -- must have copied it from a reply link instead of a normal one.
***For people who think it is meta-gamey for me to prepare an anti-grapple spell: This cleric can pretty much only be damaged by two things: Grapples, and Energy damage. Subsequently, it is reasonable to think that I would prepare resist energy to protect from that reasoning as well, since it covers this characters final remaining weakness. Also, I could have used Clairvoyance to help me track down the dragon and discover it’s colour, or discover that a dragon existed, 2-3 days ago. Indeed, why else would this adventurer be approaching the dragons lair?***[/sblock]
This is not metagaming for the anti-grapplers per the explanation you gave.
Resist energy is completely expected as the dragon is known pre-adventure knowledge.
Show
Running During Day:
Round 1:
Initiative: It has +2, I have +1, giving me a 45% chance to win, thus losing.
The Manticore’s chance of landing damage is 10% - it only deals damage with spikes on criticals. We’ll assume that 1 of every 10 attacks lands as a critical, and that it always confirms.
6 attacks, first critical, 3 damage. (38/41)
I use 1 charge of lesser vigor.
Round 2: It shoots at me, and sees me stand there, soaking in it’s spikes.
I laugh at it. Round 2, up to 12 attacks.
Round 3: Same: 18 attacks, another critical (37/41)
Round 4: Shot 24 spikes. No more criticals.
Round 5: The manticore charges me
Claws deal 2d4+5. The odds of rolling 11+ damage are 33, 34, 43, and 44 on 2d4. That is 4/16, so a 25% chance, averaging to 2 damage. It also has a 5% chance of critical biting, and on normal attacks. +10 melee gives it a 45% chance to hit me, but this round, that is a 55% chance since it is charging.
It charges, making two attacks at 55%. It beats the 50% threshold (110) and now has a -10% remaining for it’s next round.
It has a 25% chance of dealing damage, so it doesn’t. This also brings it up to 27 attacks.
I punch back, with a 40% chance to hit. I miss. (Need to roll a 12 to hit 17 AC).
Round 6: (My hp: 40/41)
It now attacks with two attacks at +45%. That brings it up to 35% attack, which misses still.
The bite critical hits, however (30th attack, it gets one every 10). 2d8+4 = 13 damage.
My attack pattern this round is +8/+5/+3, which against 17 AC, is 55% to hit, 45%, 30%
I carry over the 40% from last time, which gives me 95%, breaking the 50% threshold, and putting me to -5%. The next 45% misses it, and the final goes to 70%, a hit, which puts me to -30% carry over.
2d8+8 (both weapons of retaliation) = 17 damage.
Round 7: My HP (38/41)
It now attacks with two attacks at +45%, putting it to 125%, one hits, dropping it back to 25% positive carry over. It now reaches the 50% chance to deal damage, and does so, dealing 2 damage.
I get 3 attacks at 55/45/30, and have a -30 carry over. Attack 1 puts me to 25%, two to 70%, and 3 to 100%. Attack two hits, and I have a 0% carry over.
1d8+2 = 6.5, so 23 damage.
Round 8: My HP (37/41)
It attacks with two attacks at 45%, bringing it to 115%, which means a hit, 15% carry over. It’s chance of damage is -50%, so that goes to -25% (36 attacks, so crit next round as well)
I attack with 45%, which brings me to 45 % carry over.
Round 9: My HP (36/41)
It attacks, making it’s 39th attack. The first two are at 45%, bringing it to positive 105% chance of hit, with -25% chance of damage, so a hit, and his chance of damage is now 0%.
The crit deals 2d8+4 = 3 damage
I have a carry over of 45%, and attack with 55/45/30, which brings me to 100, 45, 75 (-100).
I make two attacks, and carry over -25%.
2d8+8 = 17 more damage, totalling 40.
Round 10: My HP: 36/41
It attacks, (42 now). The first two at 45%, meaning the first hits, bringing it’s damage chance to 25%. It’s carry over is -5%
I attack, bringing my carry over to +20%
Round 11: My HP: 35/41
It attacks, (45). The first two at +45%, meaning the second hits, and it’s carry over is -15%. It’s chance to damage is 50%, so it deals 2 points of damage. Damage chance now -50%
I make 3 attacks at 55/45/30, with 20% carry over, that is 75, 20, 30. 2 land, dealing 17 more damage, total of 57. -50% carry over.
Round 12: My HP: 35/41
It attacks (48). The first two at 90%, so the second brings his damage chance up to -25%. It now has a -25% carry over.
I attack, bringing my carry over to -5%.
Round 13: My HP: 33/41
It attacks (51). 1 misses, second hits (65%, so now at a -35%). It’s damage chance is now 0%
The bite crits, dealing 3 damage.
I attack with a 55%, which hits and kills it, and I get -50% carry over. (Another 8.5 damage = 65/57)
I use another charge of lesser vigor.
2 used so far
What are your skills? You casted a lot of spells in melee with the dragon.
Even if you maxed Concentration that is just a +10 you have there.
5 foot step back.
Divine retaliation hits once per attack. Unsure why you have it listed as twice. However, all this does is make the battle last longer. Per your posted numbers, there is no chance of a loss.
Page 110 of PHB 2: "It has a base attack equal to caster level + your strenght modifier or wisdom modifier (your choice)"
CL 5+3 wisdom = BAB 8. BAB 8 gets an iterative attack: 8/3.
This battle should look a little different, your retaliation attack only attacks once. However, remember that the retaliation attack is a force affect so it is not stuck with the 50% miss chance. Which means that I think that you deal slightly more damage than you list here.
Interesting. Didn't even notice that.
Medium 5 ft./5 ft. 1d8 1d6 1d4
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon
The dragon has reach with its bite attack whereas your divine retribution does not.
Pardon?
As was already mentioned, Aid does not increase max hps (so you cannot heal past 31 at this point in time).
Divine favor's expiration will increase (slightly) the amount of damage you take.
Good point, for some reason I thought Divine favour was minute/level not straight 1 minute. Same with Aid...
Also, provoking attacks of opportunity is kind of irrelevent, since it only deals damage on a critical anyways...
3) you use 2 wands and a weapon repeatedly, while also making use of your shield. You take no move actions to retrieve or put away any of your wands/weapons and you don't have a haversack, glove of storing or wand bracelet to speed things up.
You notice in every round that I use a wand, I don't do anything else? That's to account for a move action to draw it. And if you really care that much, every round, I drop the wand as a free action, pick it up as a move action. While this will give the dragon an extra number of attacks per how many times I used a wand, I also gave it 1 crit every 10 hits, despite it only having a crit range of 20, so I'm not too concerned.
calronmoonflower, that is really cool, but also difficult as hell to run. Should have stuck with things out of the SRD...
Page 110 of PHB 2: "It has a base attack equal to caster level + your strenght modifier or wisdom modifier (your choice)"
CL 5+3 wisdom = BAB 8. BAB 8 gets an iterative attack: 8/3.
Things only get multiple attacks when they full attack, which is not what this thing is doing
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon
Pardon?
*A dragon’s bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger. All other attacks are made with the standard reach for the dragon’s size.
Honestly though ... from what was shown, you beat the encounters.
*A dragon’s bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger. All other attacks are made with the standard reach for the dragon’s size.
Check out the table, though. A Medium dragon's reach is listed as 5', with no qualifiers for the bite. Also note that a Large dragon's reach is listed as 5', with a 10' reach on the bite.
Have you read the many things quoted in this thread where it talks about versatility being part of the power of casters? Or how builds were asked to not metagame, yet none of the prepared arcane casters spent money on spells? Yet, these same builds, with lack of spell choices/options are held up as builds with options.
Unless they have more than the free spells they are given by level anyways (three+int mod 1st level and four 2nd and two 3rd level), I doubt it's an issue. Of course I don't have time to go back and find all the builds and check them since I haven't been keeping up with them.
I don't think that it is hypocritical of me to call out casters for the things that people say that they can do.
It's hypocritical you say that they will be judged based on combat ability over everything else and then turn around and complain when they don't do anything but combat.
You will be judged on A, and maybe get some bonus points for B.
*lots of As get presented*
Yeah well, you still don't have B!
How could other builds have worked it in? What would they have given up?
.... Seriously? A feat, just like you did.
I have said multiple times
Overpowered casters would be if the casters perform better than noncasters.
Balanced would be if they both perform similarly
Underpowered casters would be if they casters perform worse than noncasters.
You're dodging the issue. I doubt you could be more vague if you tried. Preform better how? Khan posts better than you, so he's overpowered. Does that tell you anything? How do you quantify, in any form, why Khan is better? How do you know what you need to do to be better than Khan?
*sighs*
It's hypocritical you say that they will be judged based on combat ability over everything else and then turn around and complain when they don't do anything but combat.
You will be judged on A, and maybe get some bonus points for B.
*lots of As get presented*
Yeah well, you still don't have B!
The "lots of As" were judged on defeating the enemies. In the case of ties, then other things have to be used (the bonus points) -- do you agree?
Some things could be:
Other abilities present
Resources used
etc.
For instance: Which performed better, the PAO Rogue or one of the alter self spellcasters?
.... Seriously? A feat, just like you did.
Most builds do not have open feats.
Check out the table, though. A Medium dragon's reach is listed as 5', with no qualifiers for the bite. Also note that a Large dragon's reach is listed as 5', with a 10' reach on the bite.
Ah, I misread. (Effectively I was double-bumping them)
Before the adventure:
Alternate CR 5 dungeon. Loosely based on original. All monsters straight from the SRD, traps straight from DMG.Pre-knowledge
Hydra for the killin' & phat l3wtz, cave to the N of town 15 miles
The entrance is guarded by a powerful shaman riding a celestial lion!! Besides, that cave would take days to venture to the bottom of...*
Goal is hydra kill & return of Amulet of the Hydra-loot
*This information is false, but the locals are drunks and this is as much as they know. Actual avg time through should be about an hour I'd think, though if you can provide adequate explanation of tactics to go faster that can be shaved down. Say, 20 minute minimum.
The "lots of As" were judged on defeating the enemies. In the case of ties, then other things have to be used (the bonus points) -- do you agree?
Some things could be:
Other abilities present
Resources used
etc.
No because then:
Fail at the adventure, and you're subpar.
Solo it and you're average.
Solo it and do something else after and you're overpowered.
This makes the guy how get threw the adventure with nothing left and only 1 hp but fast healing overpowered, and the guy who trashes the adventure with no expenditure of resources, but nothing after average.
If you want any kind of realistic comparison you're going to have to put a heck of a lot more though into what overpowered means, and how you define it.
For instance: Which performed better, the PAO Rogue or one of the alter self spellcasters?
Based on what criteria? If they could do it again? The spell casters. If they did it without needing outside help? The spell casters. Since anyone could have pulled the same trick? The spell casters. If the rogue wasn't just relying on a spell caster anyways? The spell casters.
As near as I can tell the PAO rogue isn't the power, but the PAO is. I.e. the spell, from a spell caster.
But again, how do we judge anything when we can literally choose whatever we want as the measurement? How do we have a conversation when we then refuse to tell everyone how we are measuring?
Most builds do not have open feats.
Didn't you yourself use retraining? But anyways, they still could have taken it when building the builds if... they were concerned about out of combat viability. This just goes back to the whole problem of you said combat only was the important point.
This just goes back to the whole problem of you said combat only was the important point.
Which, we can agree, is ridiculous.
L'Avantgarde Noire
Based on what criteria? If they could do it again? The spell casters. If they did it without needing outside help? The spell casters. Since anyone could have pulled the same trick? The spell casters. If the rogue wasn't just relying on a spell caster anyways? The spell casters.
As near as I can tell the PAO rogue isn't the power, but the PAO is. I.e. the spell, from a spell caster.
But again, how do we judge anything when we can literally choose whatever we want as the measurement? How do we have a conversation when we then refuse to tell everyone how we are measuring?
Actually it was the commoners, you see, the wizard needs to eat, and the commoners produce the food, so they win the encounters for the wizard by producing the food he needs to eat while he learns magic. They also made the book for the wizard spells and the holy symbol for the cleric.
That ridiculous statement has exactly the same worth than "the spellcasters won because one of them cast PAO on the character".
A character can buy a PAO for less than a fullplate. Who wins the battle, the guy in the fullplate or the smith that forged it?
Yes, PAO is ridiculously overpowered, just like all the polymorph spells, from alter self to shapeshift. But it is not something only casters can use, deal with it already.
It is just a piece of equipment.
Yes, PAO is ridiculously overpowered, just like all the polymorph spells, from alter self to shapeshift. But it is not something only casters can use, deal with it already.
You completely missed the whole point in your rush to be insulted and defend your build and point of view. I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, namely:
But again, how do we judge anything when we can literally choose whatever we want as the measurement? How do we have a conversation when we then refuse to tell everyone how we are measuring?
I was VERY clearly calling out his lack of definition on how to judge something's state. That your rogue was used was pointless. I would have done the same thing with any build, he just used yours so I went with it.
In fact your replay only further proves my point of the need for very clear and well defined ways of determining overpoweredness (preferably edited into the first post), otherwise everyone will continue to talk right past each other.
Things only get multiple attacks when they full attack, which is not what this thing is doing
Interesting. So why do you think it specifically says Base Attack Bonus rather than the spiritual weapon way: your base attack bonus, and a bonus to attack based on wisdom or strength?
Alright, and I just counted: I would have provoked 10 Attacks of Opportunity against the dragon, which means using my method of giving 1 crit every 10 attacks, the last would be a crit, so from round 16-23, my HP is 3 lower than shown (assuming it makes the AoO with bite).
Still, it is clearly evident this character can win with ease.
No because then:
Fail at the adventure, and you're subpar.
Solo it and you're average.
Solo it and do something else after and you're overpowered.
This makes the guy how get threw the adventure with nothing left and only 1 hp but fast healing overpowered, and the guy who trashes the adventure with no expenditure of resources, but nothing after average.
Can you give me an example of a build which went through with no expenditure of resources?
If you want any kind of realistic comparison you're going to have to put a heck of a lot more though into what overpowered means, and how you define it.
First page, first post:
Rules:
Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
If casters TIE me (a noncasters) in-combat abilities then they are not overpowered -- especially when I have out-of-combat activities.
Didn't you yourself use retraining? But anyways, they still could have taken it when building the builds if... they were concerned about out of combat viability. This just goes back to the whole problem of you said combat only was the important point.
Yes, my level 10 character (shown for future growth, as someone was curious) used retraining.
You completely missed the whole point in your rush to be insulted and defend your build and point of view. I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, namely:
"But again, how do we judge anything when we can literally choose whatever we want as the measurement? How do we have a conversation when we then refuse to tell everyone how we are measuring?"
I was VERY clearly calling out his lack of definition on how to judge something's state. That your rogue was used was pointless. I would have done the same thing with any build, he just used yours so I went with it.
In fact your replay only further proves my point of the need for very clear and well defined ways of determining overpoweredness (preferably edited into the first post), otherwise everyone will continue to talk right past each other.
Actually my response was to:
"As near as I can tell the PAO rogue isn't the power, but the PAO is. I.e. the spell, from a spell caster."
Which is bullcrap, since anyone can buy a PAO just like anyone can buy a sword or an armor. And the smith is not winning the battles of the character.
Encounter 1: Bugbear+Griffon
Show
This encounter is in daylight as it specifies 250' sight distance. Note, this is the worst possible time for me.
Initiative, my +8 is 6 higher than the bugbear (rider) so I go first.
I approach 30' (single move) and ready an action to attack the griffon with rabid wolfs strike when he enters my threatened range.
They advance 160' (fly - double move) and the bugbear throws his javelin at the second range increment (-2 to hit, +1 vs AC 12, 50% chance). I take 5.5 damage. Bugbear (50%)
End of round 1. Me: 27.5, Bugbear: 16, Griffon: 59, Distance 60'. They are on the ground.
Round 2:
I approach 30' (single move) and ready an action to attack the griffon with rabid wolfs strike when he enters my threatened range.
They have no more ranged weapons, so they will approach to attack. Since the griffon has pounce, it will charge me to get the full attack off.
When the griffon reaches my threatened area, I get an attack on it (readied action). I take my attack as a full power attack swing. I hit it 80% of the time (+10 (4+5+1+4-4-1) vs 15 (17-2 for charging)) for (2d4 +1 (magic) +7(str) +1d6(stance) +8 (power attack) +2d6 (rabid wolf) = 5+1+7+3.5+8+7) 31.5 points of damage.
The griffon continues it's charge, this causes both the griffon and the bugbear to provoke.
I attack the bugbear and hit 60% of the time as well, missing it. (140%)
I attack the griffon 60% of the time, hitting. (200%) for 24.5 damage, killing it.
The bugbear as a free action, used Soft fall to take no damage, 5' steps, and then attacks me. It attacks (+7 vs ac 8, 95%, 145%) but misses.
End of Round 2: Me: 27.5, Griffon: Dead, Bugbear: 16
Round 3:
I burning blade (+4+5+1-1 vs ac 17, 65%, 265%) hitting the bugbear (2d4+1d6+1d6+3+1+7 = 5+3.5+3.5+3+1+7) for 23 damage, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 27.5, them: Dead.
Initiative, my +8 is 6 higher than the bugbear (rider) so I go first.
I approach 30' (single move) and ready an action to attack the griffon with rabid wolfs strike when he enters my threatened range.
They advance 160' (fly - double move) and the bugbear throws his javelin at the second range increment (-2 to hit, +1 vs AC 12, 50% chance). I take 5.5 damage. Bugbear (50%)
End of round 1. Me: 27.5, Bugbear: 16, Griffon: 59, Distance 60'. They are on the ground.
Round 2:
I approach 30' (single move) and ready an action to attack the griffon with rabid wolfs strike when he enters my threatened range.
They have no more ranged weapons, so they will approach to attack. Since the griffon has pounce, it will charge me to get the full attack off.
When the griffon reaches my threatened area, I get an attack on it (readied action). I take my attack as a full power attack swing. I hit it 80% of the time (+10 (4+5+1+4-4-1) vs 15 (17-2 for charging)) for (2d4 +1 (magic) +7(str) +1d6(stance) +8 (power attack) +2d6 (rabid wolf) = 5+1+7+3.5+8+7) 31.5 points of damage.
The griffon continues it's charge, this causes both the griffon and the bugbear to provoke.
I attack the bugbear and hit 60% of the time as well, missing it. (140%)
I attack the griffon 60% of the time, hitting. (200%) for 24.5 damage, killing it.
The bugbear as a free action, used Soft fall to take no damage, 5' steps, and then attacks me. It attacks (+7 vs ac 8, 95%, 145%) but misses.
End of Round 2: Me: 27.5, Griffon: Dead, Bugbear: 16
Round 3:
I burning blade (+4+5+1-1 vs ac 17, 65%, 265%) hitting the bugbear (2d4+1d6+1d6+3+1+7 = 5+3.5+3.5+3+1+7) for 23 damage, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 27.5, them: Dead.
Actually my response was to:
"As near as I can tell the PAO rogue isn't the power, but the PAO is. I.e. the spell, from a spell caster."
Which is bullcrap, since anyone can buy a PAO just like anyone can buy a sword or an armor. And the smith is not winning the battles of the character.
Anyone can grow food or make armor. But no caster, and you cannot get PAO.
To express it another way: You are at the mercy of the market.
But still, it was an example that you wanted to be insulted by. It was the metric that I was using in my examples so of course I restated it. If your want to argue your opinion on if it counts, or is 'bullcrap' may I direct you over to that wall for all your comments? Because I have zero intention of trying to argue about what your opinion is or should be. I'm trying to get a factual, measurable metric set down.
I do thank you for once again proving my point though.
Actually my response was to:
"As near as I can tell the PAO rogue isn't the power, but the PAO is. I.e. the spell, from a spell caster."
Which is bullcrap, since anyone can buy a PAO just like anyone can buy a sword or an armor. And the smith is not winning the battles of the character.
Casters can make their own weapons via spells. Try having a Fighter create a scroll of PAO with his Weapon specialization.
Anyone can grow food or make armor. But no caster, and you cannot get PAO.
To express it another way: You are at the mercy of the market.
You are correct that PCs are at the mercy of the market.
Whether they want to buy a suit of plate mail ... or find a scroll of PAO ... or a caster able to cast PAO -- they have to obey the gp / city guidelines. But the wierd thing is ... it's easier to find the scroll of PAO than it is to find the headband of intellect+2 (3000 gp vs 4000 gp)
Casters can make their own weapons via spells. Try having a Fighter create a scroll of PAO with his Weapon specialization.
Why does making it yourself matter? I don't grow my own fruit and vegitables, I don't raise my own livestock. Doesn't make that fact I eat well and am a decent cook any less valid. It's not how you get the power, it's how you use it.
Kracth:
Which is bullcrap, since anyone can buy a PAO just like anyone can buy a sword or an armor. And the smith is not winning the battles of the character.
Smith isn't winning the fight. The Wizard who scribed the PAO scroll isn't winning the fight for the Fighter. But the difference is, many casters are able to survive without those phases. Not that it matters, but it's still true.
And with one feat your Wizard can make that headband by himself. If he's an Artificer, it's even easier.
Kracth:
Smith isn't winning the fight. The Wizard who scribed the PAO scroll isn't winning the fight for the Fighter. But the difference is, many casters are able to survive without those phases. Not that it matters, but it's still true.
You are right, it does not matter at all.
It is 100% irrelevant to measure up the power of spellcasters if they can create weapons at level X or if they need commoners at level Y because they are not powerful enough to create food yet. It means zip, nothing, nada. Food is readily available in D&D, it is very cheap even at level 1. Full plates and PAO spells are more expensive, but affordable at soon as level 3.
It does not matter, and yet, every 50 posts or so someone tries to use it as an argument to explain casters are somehow better. Why is this? I have no idea.
Why does making it yourself matter? I don't grow my own fruit and vegitables, I don't raise my own livestock. Doesn't make that fact I eat well and am a decent cook any less valid. It's not how you get the power, it's how you use it.
But the 'problem' which is 100% a matter of opinion is that when you have to get power from others, they may not give it to you, or you may be unable to find it.
I personally don't care either way. Someone could use the same trick (PAO) with a caster, and that puts us back at square 1 as to who is overpowered. I could have made the same argument in reverse (Alter self is just casters trying to be fighters so fighters are clearly where the power lies.)
Hence we we need some guidelines.
Is by-passing an encounter the same as defeating it? What if I by-passed it because it wasn't worth the time because it was trivial? If I hire 50 guys with bows? What if I focus on beefing up my special mount? Where does UMD fall? What should we assume about clerics and ethos? What if we all go through and use no resources then how do we determine it?
Hence we we need some guidelines.
Is by-passing an encounter the same as defeating it? What if I by-passed it because it wasn't worth the time because it was trivial? If I hire 50 guys with bows? What if I focus on beefing up my special mount? Where does UMD fall? What should we assume about clerics and ethos? What if we all go through and use no resources then how do we determine it?
Is by-passing an encounter the same as defeating it? As I have said before:
By-passing an encounter is not the same as defeating it in almost all circumstances.
Rule-of-thumb, if the DM gives out full XP for bypassing an encounter then you defeated it.
What if I by-passed it because it wasn't worth the time because it was trivial?
There have been none of these, so this question is meaningless in the present discussion. Any of the encounters gives out a sizable XP award.
If I hire 50 guys with bows?
Did you defeat it, or did they? You realized the other question is "What if I hire 50 spellcasters to walk around with me"
What if I focus on beefing up my special mount?
So what? If the mount is a class ability (like druid's animal companion or paladin's mount) then it is part of you. Look at the Druid Handbook, some druids only power up their animal companion.
Where does UMD fall?
Per SRD, on a natural 1 for wands.
What should we assume about clerics and ethos?
Exactly what the book says about them. You choose whatever domains you want. You then either cannot use spells that talk about your diety, or you use the closest rules possible (spiritual weapon vs divine retribution)
What if we all go through and use no resources then how do we determine it?
How about we wait until this happens? No one has done this yet. But seriously though, if a build DID go through it without using a single resource it would be pretty cool. You would then have to look at out-of-combat things.
They didn't come anywhere near balance going from 2EA to 3E and they are over compensating for it in 3.5E by giving the overpowered magic to everyone instead of toning it down.
Is by-passing an encounter the same as defeating it? As I have said before:
By-passing an encounter is not the same as defeating it in almost all circumstances.
Rule-of-thumb, if the DM gives out full XP for bypassing an encounter then you defeated it.
What if I by-passed it because it wasn't worth the time because it was trivial?
There have been none of these, so this question is meaningless in the present discussion. Any of the encounters gives out a sizable XP award.
Actually I believe I could make 3 (4?) of the 5 original encounters trivial in that they would have no way of defending against, slowing down, harming, or expending resources of a build. Should I then be penalized for simply skipping them and defeat the end challenge quicker?
If I hire 50 guys with bows?
Did you defeat it, or did they? You realized the other question is "What if I hire 50 spellcasters to walk around with me"
I hire a caster to PAO me? Or perhaps I hire a caster to cast spell x and win for me?
What if I focus on beefing up my special mount?
So what? If the mount is a class ability (like druid's animal companion or paladin's mount) then it is part of you. Look at the Druid Handbook, some druids only power up their animal companion.
But then we're ignoring the spell casting, and doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Where does UMD fall?
Per SRD, on a natural 1 for wands.
FALL. Where is it on the power scale? Does it count as caster or non-caster?
What should we assume about clerics and ethos?
Exactly what the book says about them. You choose whatever domains you want. You then either cannot use spells that talk about your diety, or you use the closest rules possible (spiritual weapon vs divine retribution)
So... use what you can and make up the rest? Are you going to step in and adjucate every dispute or interpretation?
What if we all go through and use no resources then how do we determine it?
How about we wait until this happens? No one has done this yet. But seriously though, if a build DID go through it without using a single resource it would be pretty cool. You would then have to look at out-of-combat things.
Well, I could make it happen now, but there isn't a point since it wouldn't make casters or non-casters overpowered by anything you've said yet. We still have no way to measure, and your above answers seem somewhat shortsighted.
But the 'problem' which is 100% a matter of opinion is that when you have to get power from others, they may not give it to you, or you may be unable to find it.
It is a matter of opinion, not a class issue. Fact is, magic item and spellcasting survices are available for purchase as per the rules. Denying us access to available resources (in the form of gear options) is no different then denying you access to spell abuse cheese. It can be done, commonly is houseruled as such in many game, but for these discussions, if we tried to say otherworldly + alter self wasn't allowed, or you couldn't persist swift spells with single round durations, we'd get told where to go. The fact you think it's reasonable to do it to us seems a little off.
Earlier, when some people were advocating removing spell copying items from the challanges, I was forced to wonder 2 things...
1) if spell copying items are being removed from the challange, should not melee copying spells (anything that can be used to boost AC, to hit, damage and DR) also be removed? Both are integral parts of the game.
2) is a casters power so fragile that the mere inclusion of magic items threatens that supposed superiority?
I personally don't care either way. Someone could use the same trick (PAO) with a caster, and that puts us back at square 1 as to who is overpowered. I could have made the same argument in reverse (Alter self is just casters trying to be fighters so fighters are clearly where the power lies.)
A caster could use a similar trick, but BAB, weapon selection and combat feats do play a part in ones ability to make use of melee based PaO forms (there are some benifial caster forms though, so yes, casters do have PaO options)
Hence we we need some guidelines.
Offer up some alternatives. I see you complaining to meyer about his choices, but setting a standard everyone can agree on isn't easy. Maybe if you tried to do it yourself you'd be more sympathetic to what Meyer is trying to accomplish.
Actually I believe I could make 3 (4?) of the 5 original encounters trivial in that they would have no way of defending against, slowing down, harming, or expending resources of a build. Should I then be penalized for simply skipping them and defeat the end challenge quicker?
Instead of talking about generalities, post a build or a skeleton if you prefer.
I hire a caster to PAO me? Or perhaps I hire a caster to cast spell x and win for me?
/me opens up PHB, looks up equipment, looks up spellcaster services. Yup. I can hire a caster to PAO me into a dwarven ancestor. (Note, the Rogue was posted to demonstrate that the spellcasters were not winning, the spells were. This is a vital distinction to make).
Take 50 1st level sorcerers with magic missile along with me (or 50 archers) does not show anything about the build. It shows how the hirelings perform.
But then we're ignoring the spell casting, and doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Sigh ... I don't get it. What are you looking for in an answer? I just said that paladins/druids could buff their class feature and this is quite different than hiring an outside source to cast PAO (or anything else) on someone.
FALL. Where is it on the power scale? Does it count as caster or non-caster?
Oh sorry, misread that one.
UMD is a skill (not a spell) which uses magic items. It is no more a caster than a person making a jump check while wearing a ring of jumping.
It uses MAGIC which is not this discussion.
So... use what you can and make up the rest? Are you going to step in and adjucate every dispute or interpretation?
Kinda. We use the rules of DnD to determine if they are being followed. When the rules are grey, we either come up with our best guess or go to CustServ. Note: Both casters and noncasters (for the most part) have either agreed with what I have said, or pointed out my errors.
Well, I could make it happen now, but there isn't a point since it wouldn't make casters or non-casters overpowered by anything you've said yet. We still have no way to measure, and your above answers seem somewhat shortsighted.
Kratch put it quite well. How about you give me an idea of what guidelines you think to be sufficiently detailed enough to account for an almost unlimited amount of possible builds/equipment/skill/spell choices and the way to judge whether casters or noncasters come out ahead.
btw, there have been a lot of complaints about bias towards the rules/interpretations/etc, however we currently have 13 (mostly) different caster builds. Some of which have completed the mini-adventure, so it can't be too bad.
If I hire 50 guys with bows?
Did you defeat it, or did they? You realized the other question is "What if I hire 50 spellcasters to walk around with me"
I hire a caster to PAO me? Or perhaps I hire a caster to cast spell x and win for me?
This makes me think... the handle-animal commoner with a herd of cows trick could defeat 2-3 of these encounters (snake, rug, maybe manticore), depending on the exact environment the encounters are in. Does that mean commoners are overpowered? Or maybe it's cows that are? :D
I think hiring 50 guys with bows is as legit as hiring someone to cast PaO on you, also. Neither would work in some campaign environments, like the World's Largest Dungeon, also.
How do you know what you need to do to be better than Khan?
The answer is simple: nothing. This is an absolute truth of the universe, or a universal absolute truth if you will.
I will always be better than everyone.
Even me.
The answer is simple: nothing. This is an absolute truth of the universe, or a universal absolute truth if you will.
I will always be better than everyone.
Even me.
So, your real life name is "Chuck Norris"?
This makes me think... the handle-animal commoner with a herd of cows trick could defeat 2-3 of these encounters (snake, rug, maybe manticore), depending on the exact environment the encounters are in. Does that mean commoners are overpowered? Or maybe it's cows that are? :D
I actually toyed with the idea of putting together a Commoner/Survivor, but that build doesn't really take off until level 6 when you get DR 5/--.
What I really thought would be funny would be a Kobold Commoner 1/Survivor 4, but I could only get about 24 AC before potions (spending about 6000gp), and I didn't really feel like fleshing out his gear.
I think hiring 50 guys with bows is as legit as hiring someone to cast PaO on you, also. Neither would work in some campaign environments, like the World's Largest Dungeon, also.
I don't have access to my books but, if I remember corectly, if those 50 guys with bows participate, they all help adjust the EPL and thus, reduce the EL of the encounter, and should any xp actually be doled out, they get a share of it. So yes, it is legit, it is not practical or efficient. PaO on the other hand, is nothing more then gear, nether adjusting the EPL, EL or xp gained.
Encounter 1: Bone creatures
Show
Initiative Order:
Me: +8
Frick: +7
Frack: +4
Hmm ... to be fair, Frick needs to win initiative as I only beat him by 1.
He approaches to 10' from me, not wanting to risk an AoO (guessing combat reflexes for a spiked chain user is not metagaming). He attacks me (+7 vs AC 12) 80% for (2d4+3) 8 damage.
I decide to attack the unarmored skeleton, as it is probably flatfooted (easier to hit). So I charge, this provokes from the skeleton, hitting me 80% of the time (no longer flatfooted, 160%, hit) for another 8 damage.
I attack the flatfooted skeleton (+4+5+1+2 vs ac 16, 85). I deal (2d4+1+7+8+1d6 * 1/2 = 5+1+7+8+3.5 * 1/2) 12.25 damage. I activate my bracers and attack again (85, 170) for another 12.25 damage. Killing it.
End of Round 1: Me: 17, Mage: Dead: Fighter: 18.
Round 2:
It charges me, (95, 175) for 8 damage, triggering fire riposte (+4+5 vs 10, 95%, 255) dealing 17.5 damage.
I heal 1 hp and attack it (+4+5+1 vs 14, 85%, 340) missing.
End of round 2: Me: 10, Mage: dead, Fighter: .5,
Round 3:
It attacks me (+7 vs ac 12, 80, 255) hitting for another 8 damage.
I attack it (85, 425) dealing more than .5 hps of damage, killing it.
Initiative Order:
Me: +8
Frick: +7
Frack: +4
Hmm ... to be fair, Frick needs to win initiative as I only beat him by 1.
He approaches to 10' from me, not wanting to risk an AoO (guessing combat reflexes for a spiked chain user is not metagaming). He attacks me (+7 vs AC 12) 80% for (2d4+3) 8 damage.
I decide to attack the unarmored skeleton, as it is probably flatfooted (easier to hit). So I charge, this provokes from the skeleton, hitting me 80% of the time (no longer flatfooted, 160%, hit) for another 8 damage.
I attack the flatfooted skeleton (+4+5+1+2 vs ac 16, 85). I deal (2d4+1+7+8+1d6 * 1/2 = 5+1+7+8+3.5 * 1/2) 12.25 damage. I activate my bracers and attack again (85, 170) for another 12.25 damage. Killing it.
End of Round 1: Me: 17, Mage: Dead: Fighter: 18.
Round 2:
It charges me, (95, 175) for 8 damage, triggering fire riposte (+4+5 vs 10, 95%, 255) dealing 17.5 damage.
I heal 1 hp and attack it (+4+5+1 vs 14, 85%, 340) missing.
End of round 2: Me: 10, Mage: dead, Fighter: .5,
Round 3:
It attacks me (+7 vs ac 12, 80, 255) hitting for another 8 damage.
I attack it (85, 425) dealing more than .5 hps of damage, killing it.
I don't have access to my books but, if I remember corectly, if those 50 guys with bows participate, they all help adjust the EPL and thus, reduce the EL of the encounter, and should any xp actually be doled out, they get a share of it. So yes, it is legit, it is not practical or efficient. PaO on the other hand, is nothing more then gear, nether adjusting the EPL, EL or xp gained.
Grin ... worst of all -- when they hit the wraith, it decimates the archers -- and then the 52 (50+PC+monster) wraiths go out killing cities.
Grin ... worst of all -- when they hit the wraith, it decimates the archers -- and then the 52 (50+PC+monster) wraiths go out killing cities.
Yes, I think most of us are aware of all the problems inherent in D&D ecology.
Also, if the PC is a spellcaster (or can activate a scroll of Magic Weapon), the 50 archers can take out the wraith, too. A single casting can enchant 50 arrows. Hand them out, 1 to each archer. One volley should be enough to kill the wraith, I think.
Yeah, if the wraith surprised you, and you hadn't precast Magic Weapon, it would probably make it tough, if you didn't retreat immediately to prevent it from turning your archer battery into spawn before you could enact this. It could still work, though.
Or the PC could deal with the wraith directly via Command Undead, or Turn Undead (with a +1 boost from an item or feat).
Pointing out problems with this specific strategy is dodging the point, anyway, which I think is that hiring someone else (whether they cast a spell on you, or fight for you) is still relying on someone else's power, not your own. There are problems with permanent Polymorph Any Object which could also be pointed out.
This thread has outgrown threads a year older than it.
I wonder if it will eclipse "ask a simple question, get a simple answer"? :P
Instead of talking about generalities, post a build or a skeleton if you prefer.
As a skeleton? Wizard 4/Eidoloncer 1 w/ Invisible Needle reserve feat.
/me opens up PHB, looks up equipment, looks up spellcaster services. Yup. I can hire a caster to PAO me into a dwarven ancestor. (Note, the Rogue was posted to demonstrate that the spellcasters were not winning, the spells were. This is a vital distinction to make).
So... the SPELL CASTERS were... CASTING SPELLS... and the SPELLS were allowing the SPELL CASTERS to win. But that doesn't mean the SPELL CASTERS were powerful, just SPELLS that they CAST.
Do you have any idea how remotely absurd and idiotic that sounds? I really just cannot fathom what in the nine hells you expect spell casters to do besides casts spell and use said spells that they cast to win.
I really just can't go on anymore, I am stunned by the... I honestly can't think of any term fit enough to describe that statement and the depths fallacy that it is....
I dont much care, but I am curious:has anyone run a standard undead wrangler build through this scenario?
I think an early entry Master of Shrouds would be able to crush almost the entire scenario, with Shadows alone. Obviously, the rug would require some other resource.If the build includes a way to create corporeal undead, that might be enough to take out the rug.
Has any of this been tried? If so, could you direct me to the post?
Ronyon, there was a Dread Necromancer or something to that effect. You can get a link from the first post of the thread.
Hmm, there is a lot of crap to wade through here, and it seems like most of it is about non-casters using magic items and if that makes them as good, better, or pale imitations.
I dont much care, but I am curious:has anyone run a standard undead wrangler build through this scenario?
I think an early entry Master of Shrouds would be able to crush almost the entire scenario, with Shadows alone. Obviously, the rug would require some other resource.If the build includes a way to create corporeal undead, that might be enough to take out the rug.
Has any of this been tried? If so, could you direct me to the post?
Someone posted a early entry MoS, but I don't know if it has been "critiqued" by the thread managers. I'm sure a well-built one should have few problems destroying this mini-dungeon. The rug is the only thing that should give it much of a problem, I think, and a giant snake skeleton/zombie paired with a manticore skeleton/zombie should take care of that, I'd think. :P You'd have to use scrolls of Animate Dead, but since people are breaking out the "a wizard cast PaO on me", that shouldn't be a problem. :P
Heck, now that I think about it, a standard neutral or evil cleric with a slight boost to his Rebuking level should be able to take this thing out handily. Kill the manticore via whatever means, animate it. Kill the snake, animate it. Rebuke the wraith, or cast Command Undead on it (alternate domain ability where you pick your spells... I forget the name), and use your newly aquired Army of Doom to kill the rug and dragon.
/me opens up PHB, looks up equipment, looks up spellcaster services. Yup. I can hire a caster to PAO me into a dwarven ancestor. (Note, the Rogue was posted to demonstrate that the spellcasters were not winning, the spells were. This is a vital distinction to make).
Take 50 1st level sorcerers with magic missile along with me (or 50 archers) does not show anything about the build. It shows how the hirelings perform.
First off, spells are what the casters use to accomplish their goals; much like the weapons and armor of the warriors. If we are going to assume that casters are not overpowered but their spells can be, then we must take the same assumption with non-casters. We end up with nearly all classes becoming too weak for comparison. Spells are an intrinsic part of spellcasters and need to be taken into account when determining power level. Just like when many of us try to show that fighters don't suck because we can choose the right feats and gear. Spells are one of the class abilities of casters, just like feats are for the fighter, rage is for the barbarian, etc.
The other problem I have is with the hirelings. Obviously when we hire 50+ archers to help us out, we will do better. However, it is an option in the books just like non-casters using wands and scrolls or having someone cast spells beforehand (like permanency). While I will agree that it doesn't show how powerful the class is, what it can show is how well the class can perform individually without spending tons of money on gear. For example, if the casters can afford all their gear and still have money for hirelings, this can demonstrate a discrepancy in power level between casters and non-casters if significant enough.
Hmm, there is a lot of crap to wade through here, and it seems like most of it is about non-casters using magic items and if that makes them as good, better, or pale imitations.
I dont much care, but I am curious:has anyone run a standard undead wrangler build through this scenario?
I think an early entry Master of Shrouds would be able to crush almost the entire scenario, with Shadows alone. Obviously, the rug would require some other resource.If the build includes a way to create corporeal undead, that might be enough to take out the rug.
Has any of this been tried? If so, could you direct me to the post?
I got about halfway through a Master of Shrouds build, but gave up on it. Feel free to mess with it; I'm pretty much abandoning it.
You're pretty much going to have to choose between master of Shrouds or corporeal undead, at level 5. Incidentally, I also played with an undead-creating Cleric for a while, going up the Corpsecrafter line, but I stopped messing with it because I didn't want to fiddle with material components for Animate Dead.
I haven't really participated much in this thread because it is very difficult to judge power level until we hit extremes. Everything is going to be campaign dependent. However, I have a problem with this particular paragraph.Originally Posted by Meyer_William
/me opens up PHB, looks up equipment, looks up spellcaster services. Yup. I can hire a caster to PAO me into a dwarven ancestor. (Note, the Rogue was posted to demonstrate that the spellcasters were not winning, the spells were. This is a vital distinction to make).
Take 50 1st level sorcerers with magic missile along with me (or 50 archers) does not show anything about the build. It shows how the hirelings perform.
First off, spells are what the casters use to accomplish their goals; much like the weapons and armor of the warriors. If we are going to assume that casters are not overpowered but their spells can be, then we must take the same assumption with non-casters. We end up with nearly all classes becoming too weak for comparison. Spells are an intrinsic part of spellcasters and need to be taken into account when determining power level. Just like when many of us try to show that fighters don't suck because we can choose the right feats and gear. Spells are one of the class abilities of casters, just like feats are for the fighter, rage is for the barbarian, etc.
Bob,
Of the 13 casters posted so far, 4 of them used otherworldly/alter self for the attempted win. If you examine their tactics and their walk-through, they behaved virtually identically to a commoner with those same spells cast on them. This means it was the spell, not the spellcaster which did as well as it did for the mini-adventure. This is easily seen by how well the rogue PAO did.
Compare this to the evoker/enchanter builds. The UMD rogue cannot duplicate what it did. This shows that it was the caster who won, not the spells.
I think it's weird that Meyer disallowed using gishes. After all, if melee characters can UMD why shouldn't the casters be able to make the most out of their possibilities?
I mentioned multiple times, using a build that requires (or at least performs better) by dipping into a noncaster class to prove that noncasters are underpowered seems wrong.
Pointing out problems with this specific strategy is dodging the point, anyway, which I think is that hiring someone else (whether they cast a spell on you, or fight for you) is still relying on someone else's power, not your own. There are problems with permanent Polymorph Any Object which could also be pointed out.
I think there is a pretty big difference right here:
-They fight for you: you don't get the xp
-They give you nice stuff for gold and you kill the enemy: you get the xp
Bob,
Of the 13 casters posted so far, 4 of them used otherworldly/alter self for the attempted win. If you examine their tactics and their walk-through, they behaved virtually identically to a commoner with those same spells cast on them. This means it was the spell, not the spellcaster which did as well as it did for the mini-adventure. This is easily seen by how well the rogue PAO did.
Compare this to the evoker/enchanter builds. The UMD rogue cannot duplicate what it did. This shows that it was the caster who won, not the spells.
They still had to cast the spell. While you may not like the tactics, the spell could not have been cast if a spellcaster wasn't involved in some way. I don't think separating spellcasters from the spells in these discussions is reasonable. One cannot exist without the other.
I do think that many spells are overpowered. There are even some spell combos that are even more overpowered. In the end though, none of them are useful without a caster, even if it is only to craft the item that uses the spell.
So... the SPELL CASTERS were... CASTING SPELLS... and the SPELLS were allowing the SPELL CASTERS to win. But that doesn't mean the SPELL CASTERS were powerful, just SPELLS that they CAST.
Do you have any idea how remotely absurd and idiotic that sounds? I really just cannot fathom what in the nine hells you expect spell casters to do besides casts spell and use said spells that they cast to win.
I really just can't go on anymore, I am stunned by the... I honestly can't think of any term fit enough to describe that statement and the depths fallacy that it is....
Yes it is incredibly idiotic, I mean...
The smith forced the sword, so the warrior killed the enemies... with the sword, that the smith forged! Astonishing! Amazing! The smith did all the work! Why is the warrior that got the xp and the glory!?
D&D is soooo unfair. I will go cry a river now
Wait! The smith can also kill the bad guys with the sword, so maybe he can also get xp and glory. Right? Only... (shocking!) he is not the only one that can use a sword! Who would have thunk! (obviously not Previn).
Wait! The smith can also kill the bad guys with the sword, so maybe he can also get xp and glory. Right? Only... (shocking!) he is not the only one that can use a sword! Who would have thunk! (obviously not Previn).
Who says the smith can't use a sword? Craft is a class skill for Fighters.
Yes it is incredibly idiotic, I mean...
The smith forced the sword, so the warrior killed the enemies... with the sword, that the smith forged! Astonishing! Amazing! The smith did all the work! Why is the warrior that got the xp and the glory!?
D&D is soooo unfair. I will go cry a river now
Wait! The smith can also kill the bad guys with the sword, so maybe he can also get xp and glory. Right? Only... (shocking!) he is not the only one that can use a sword! Who would have thunk! (obviously not Previn).
The point being made is that non-casters are being allowed to use all of the perks and abilities of a caster class in items and scrolls and by meyer's own admission the casters are not allowed to sue any or the perks or tactics of the non-casters because "thats not showing he casters are over powered". IE gish's and melee clerics not being allowed.
So it comes down to non-casters having access to spells, feats tactics etc.. while the casters are only allowed access to spells. It's A+B+C+D vs A alone. Of course the non-casters are going to win in this.
Gear =/= class ability or power. it's a simple fact that everyone and their mother disputes till they are blue in the face but it never changes.
Yes it is incredibly idiotic, I mean...
The smith forced the sword, so the warrior killed the enemies... with the sword, that the smith forged! Astonishing! Amazing! The smith did all the work! Why is the warrior that got the xp and the glory!?
D&D is soooo unfair. I will go cry a river now
Wait! The smith can also kill the bad guys with the sword, so maybe he can also get xp and glory. Right? Only... (shocking!) he is not the only one that can use a sword! Who would have thunk! (obviously not Previn).
"demonstrate that the spellcasters were not winning, the spells were"
"demonstrate that the melee were not winning, the weapons were"
Do you really just have that little of an idea where the problem is with the statement?
IE gish's and melee clerics not being allowed.
I'm pretty sure melee clerics are being allowed. I don't know if anyone's seriously tried to build one. I know there was at least one DMM(Persist) Cleric who probably could've been melee without much problem.
Every game I've played in does not assume that wizards have nothing better to do.
But, of course, these are the CO boards, so I guess it should be allowed. I just don't think you're *proving* anything by doing it.
I mentioned multiple times, using a build that requires (or at least performs better) by dipping into a noncaster class to prove that noncasters are underpowered seems wrong.
Not true. How about Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5? Or W 5/SB 10/AB 4? That's just limiting options. Let's take UMD and Tome of Battle away too, since they help melee characters to rival casters.
Not true. How about Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5? Or W 5/SB 10/AB 4? That's just limiting options. Let's take UMD and Tome of Battle away too, since they help melee characters to rival casters.
It's even funnier when you consider the fact that casters are in no way allowed to use non-caster tactics but the non-casters in this thread have just as many buffs and spells running as the caster do. Double standard much? But no no just because it's on an item doesn't mean that it's a caster tactic right.
The point being made is that non-casters are being allowed to use all of the perks and abilities of a caster class in items and scrolls and by meyer's own admission the casters are not allowed to sue any or the perks or tactics of the non-casters because "thats not showing he casters are over powered". IE gish's and melee clerics not being allowed.
Drakinar -- and anyone else -- when saying that I say something, please link to the post where I say this, especially when it goes against the spirit of what I am saying.
Gish requiring levels in non-casters are not used to show the overpoweredness of casters (i.e. if noncaster levels increase your power, then noncasters cannot be underpowered)
Melee clerics would be very welcome (however, I thought that the DMM Persist was a melee cleric, he enters melee, he attacks). Especially because I am looking for examples of overpowered spellcasters.
So it comes down to non-casters having access to spells, feats tactics etc.. while the casters are only allowed access to spells. It's A+B+C+D vs A alone. Of course the non-casters are going to win in this.
Non-casters do not have access to spells (if they did, they would be casters). They have access to items. Exactly like casters do.
Both casters and noncasters have access to feats, equipment, and tactics. The proof of these statements is the many posts by each group.
However, people have posted that if a noncaster has access to a potion (cure light for instance), an item (belt of healing), or a feat (maneuver (martial study)) then they are casters. (let me know if you would like me to post links to the posts that say these things.
Gear =/= class ability or power. it's a simple fact that everyone and their mother disputes till they are blue in the face but it never changes.
Gear is part of your character.
Some gear enhances what you already do (hat of intellect enhances a wizards spellcasting, sword+1 enhances a melee's attack).
Some gear covers a weakness (crystal of mind shielding, amulet of health +2, etc)
Some gear gives your character options (potion of healing, potion of fly, crossbow).
It's even funnier when you consider the fact that casters are in no way allowed to use non-caster tactics but the non-casters in this thread have just as many buffs and spells running as the caster do. Double standard much? But no no just because it's on an item doesn't mean that it's a caster tactic right.
But why only limit spellcasters? Are the gish builds I posted somehow non-caster-ish or what? If melee characters are allowed to take whatever they want, spellcasters should be allowed to pick up caster PrCs that suit their fancy.
The point being made is that non-casters are being allowed to use all of the perks and abilities of a caster class in items and scrolls and by meyer's own admission the casters are not allowed to sue any or the perks or tactics of the non-casters because "thats not showing he casters are over powered". IE gish's and melee clerics not being allowed.
So it comes down to non-casters having access to spells, feats tactics etc.. while the casters are only allowed access to spells. It's A+B+C+D vs A alone. Of course the non-casters are going to win in this.
Gear =/= class ability or power. it's a simple fact that everyone and their mother disputes till they are blue in the face but it never changes.
The "perks and abilities of a caster class" are not such if anyone can use them. The skill UMD exists to allow non-casters use some of the so-called caster perks.
The casters have perks non-casters do not get, though, in the form of high DC save or die spells and potent metamagic spells. If those are so powerful that really leave non-casters in the dust, then casters are indeed more powerful than non-casters.
If the caster over-power is in some overpowered spells anyone can use, then there is no difference in the overpowerness of casters and non-casters.
Saying that gear is not power is an argument that never flies, since in the DMG it clearly says "gear is power" and follows with wealth by level tables and 80 pages of magical items with price tags attached.
Repeating once and again "gear is not power" is like trying to convince people the sky is green. Saying "the sky is green it's a simple fact that everyone and their mother disputes till they are blue in the face but it never changes" sounds really silly.
That being said, the despair save can be made by my cleric, and I'd have to buy scrolls to counter act the mummy rot. Maybe I'll run it later when I have some time to kill.
The problem with "I get PaO cast on me" is the same as the problem with "I buy a candle of invocation at level 5, and therefore win". The problem is, it assumes that there exists a supply of high-level spellcasters who have nothing better to do than cast spells for the benefit of 5th level adventurers. If PAO is allowed, in all its forms, then heroes and kings will be lined up for miles to get these spells cast on them. Likewise, if the Candle of Invocation is allowed, what noble would not want to have one of these under his pillow? Not to mention that characters of these levels are probably off saving the world (or conquering it, or at least killing dragons for loot), and not having so much time to bother with supplying fifth level adventurers with their basic needs.
Every game I've played in does not assume that wizards have nothing better to do.
But, of course, these are the CO boards, so I guess it should be allowed. I just don't think you're *proving* anything by doing it.
I think it is already proven Candles of Invocation are overpowered, as it is polymorph in all its unholy variations.
But they are not caster-only brokeness. So it does not make casters overpowered. And you know what? It was pro-casters which brought both broken mechanics to this thread to show us how powerful casters are. Now I am reading a lot of complains about this rogue that does the polymorph brokeness better than any caster posted so far. How odd.
And yes, there are some powerful casters that sell spells for gold. It says so in the PHB page 129. That is a fact. If some DM says "no way" he is houseruling. And that fine, that is what a DM -needs- to do when some guy with the Otherworldly feat wants to abuse PAO at level 5. Actually, grabbing a red ink pen and crossing all the polymorph spells in the PHB and the Candle of Invocation in the DMG is a great idea.
But it has no weight in this thread.
Drakinar -- and anyone else -- when saying that I say something, please link to the post where I say this, especially when it goes against the spirit of what I am saying.
Ok, here:
I mentioned multiple times, using a build that requires (or at least performs better) by dipping into a noncaster class to prove that noncasters are underpowered seems wrong.
Gish requiring levels in non-casters are not used to show the overpoweredness of casters (i.e. if noncaster levels increase your power, then noncasters cannot be underpowered)
Which is untrue. Gish is a term for any caster who uses spells to enhance melee capability (which if you haven't noticed is a decent majority of casters especially the optimized ones). Alterself is a staple gish spell used in this fashion and in no way requires dipping to another class.
Non-casters do not have access to spells (if they did, they would be casters). They have access to items. Exactly like casters do.
You realize you have contradicted yourself here in the same sentence right? non-caster uses item X which activates ability "as per the spell". This is the crux of the problem here as I have been saying. Any spell can be put into either an item or scroll and used by a non-caster so "non-casters" simply do not exist anymore.
Both casters and noncasters have access to feats, equipment, and tactics. The proof of these statements is the many posts by each group.
But casters are barred from feats and tactics that are in any way related to melee combat. So non-casters have access to all and casters have access to a restricted list in your own viewpoint.
However, people have posted that if a noncaster has access to a potion (cure light for instance), an item (belt of healing), or a feat (maneuver (martial study)) then they are casters. (let me know if you would like me to post links to the posts that say these things.
Gear is part of your character.
Some gear enhances what you already do (hat of intellect enhances a wizards spellcasting, sword+1 enhances a melee's attack).
Some gear covers a weakness (crystal of mind shielding, amulet of health +2, etc)
Some gear gives your character options (potion of healing, potion of fly, crossbow).
The problem is those options are all the same options open to spell casters because any spell can be put into an item or scroll and used by anyone meaning you now have 2 sets of classes to choose from but again the casters aren't allowed anywhere near melee gear or tactics here.
Bottom line, you are comparing all non-casters to a caster who is not allowed an entire subset of tactics, spells, and has been alienated from his own spell list as a source of class power because non-casters can use the same spells from items.
Just make a caster and blow away the encounters already.
Why is this a competition? Who cares if a non-caster is using spell-trigger items?
Just make a caster and blow away the encounters already.
I'm waiting for level 7 PCs taking on 4 CR 10s. I'll use my druid once we get to the level I think it will matter.
Why is this a competition? Who cares if a non-caster is using spell-trigger items?
Just make a caster and blow away the encounters already.
Was that aimed at someone in particular? If it was targetted at me, I'd be glad to say that I don't care even if they used Ice assassin to go through the gauntlet. I just don't like banning gishes. Moreover, I posted a build already...
Edit: As for the new challenges, we (carnivore and I) are working on the next dungeon already.
The "perks and abilities of a caster class" are not such if anyone can use them. The skill UMD exists to allow non-casters use some of the so-called caster perks.
The casters have perks non-casters do not get, though, in the form of high DC save or die spells and potent metamagic spells. If those are so powerful that really leave non-casters in the dust, then casters are indeed more powerful than non-casters.
If the caster over-power is in some overpowered spells anyone can use, then there is no difference in the overpowerness of casters and non-casters.
Saying that gear is not power is an argument that never flies, since in the DMG it clearly says "gear is power" and follows with wealth by level tables and 80 pages of magical items with price tags attached.
Repeating once and again "gear is not power" is like trying to convince people the sky is green. Saying "the sky is green it's a simple fact that everyone and their mother disputes till they are blue in the face but it never changes" sounds really silly.
If you honestly believe this I feel sorry for you and your gaming group. WotC went way overboard over compensating for not balancing magic by giving it to everyone via items and skills and they themselves have said it's a mistake which is why it's going away in 4E.
You are not showing the power of your character anymore you are showing the power of his gear.
So... the SPELL CASTERS were... CASTING SPELLS... and the SPELLS were allowing the SPELL CASTERS to win. But that doesn't mean the SPELL CASTERS were powerful, just SPELLS that they CAST.
You seem to have issues telling the difference between spellcasters, and the spells they cast. Spells are available through several options, ether from the class abilities of spellcasters, or as gear, through items or purchased casting services... you follow so far?
Many many many people are claiming casters are significantly more powerful then non casters. Spellcasters can make better use of some magic spells (such as those requiring DC saves, which they can boost through various means. those who's damage scales significantly with level (these in gear form can get rather expensive), and they can often make easier use of the items (no need for UMD check on some wands). HOWEVER, these above things have not been what has been used for several of the caster builds provided in this thread. It has not been high DC spells, it has not been high scaling damage spells, it has been the powerful spells/effects that happen to be easily accessible as gear that have been used often.
The spells being used, regardless of their source (class ability or gear), are powerful. If those spells are not inherently better utilized by casters (and there is nothing a caster does to make the spell effect superior on them then on someone else. If PaO is used to turn a caster and a non-caster into ancestral dwarves, the caster does not get some kind of inherent bonus to it's effect (they don't get better strength or superior natural armour), all they get is a financial savings.
So, the question remains, given the example builds above, how is a caster so much more superior to a non-caster when the bulk of the effects being used are accessible to both caster and non-caster?
Do you have any idea how remotely absurd and idiotic that sounds? I really just cannot fathom what in the nine hells you expect spell casters to do besides casts spell and use said spells that they cast to win.
If you could for a single moment differentiate spells and spellcasting, it wouldn't sound so absurd. Spells are magical effects, they often provide magical benefits to the user (note, the user does not need to be a spellcaster), or detrimental effects to the users opponents. Spellcasting is only a single method of utilizing spells. Gear is also a method of utilizing spells. Just because some spells are powerful, does not mean spellcasters are superior to non casters, because some of those powerful spells are also available to non-casters, as gear is another, perfectly valid method of utilizing spells.
I really just can't go on anymore, I am stunned by the... I honestly can't think of any term fit enough to describe that statement and the depths fallacy that it is....
it really isn't a difficult concept if you would only take a moment to try and understand it.
Was that aimed at someone in particular? If it was targetted at me, I'd be glad to say that I don't care even if they used Ice assassin to go through the gauntlet. I just don't like banning gishes. Moreover, I posted a build already...
Edit: As for the new challenges, we (carnivore and I) are working on the next dungeon already.
Mind including some non-combat encounters? Just one CR 5ish trap and some skill checks (knowledge, diplomacy, whatever...)?
Was that aimed at someone in particular? If it was targetted at me, I'd be glad to say that I don't care even if they used Ice assassin to go through the gauntlet. I just don't like banning gishes. Moreover, I posted a build already...
Edit: As for the new challenges, we (carnivore and I) are working on the next dungeon already.
Lets use the way-back machine ... and actually read what was said by me shall we?
Originally Posted by CrimsonDeath
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
BAB +17, CL 16, and not a fighter level to be seen. Is that Gish build acceptable?
If you insist that the "caster" have 9th level spells, then try this:
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
In my opinion, this is not a gish ... and would easily be allowed based on my first post (base class +1 CL, PrC at least 3/5 caster level)
Your first 6 levels are at 1/2 bab, etc ...
How do you fare at low levels (pre swiftblade)? Are you overpowered?
Post a build ... SHOW me the gish (a different poster talked about wizard 6/swiftbladeX/abjurant championY) that is not fighterX/WizardY to start ... that performs in this role ... and then we can compare to a fighter.
IF the gish does all you say he does, then yes, that would be overpowered.
IF, as the DMM cleric posted in the other thread did, it is not as good at combat as the melee, but has spells, then it is a tradeoff, and is not overpowered.
OK : Lets compare a fighter/wizard gish at first level
Level 1: Fighter
Level 1: Fighter
Which is more powerful? And why?
Hint: I won't tell you which one is the gish, and which one isn't.
Also, as i posted in the other thread, if a caster is underpowered for more levels than he is overpowered -- is it really overpowered?
To propose a compromise: How about allowing Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom and whatnot gishes to the dungeons that feature casters that are level 7 or above? Possibly with a dip to a noncaster class that is. Of course, Otherworldly can help gishes with the prerequisites of most gish PrCs.
If you honestly believe this I feel sorry for you and your gaming group. WotC went way overboard over compensating for not balancing magic by giving it to everyone via items and skills and they themselves have said it's a mistake which is why it's going away in 4E.
You are not showing the power of your character anymore you are showing the power of his gear.
Please, show me where has WotC said that. Because the Magic Item Compendium published just a few months ago does exactly the contrary to what you are claiming they are saying.
Oh, I am showing the power of my character, indeed. It is like saying, after a wizard wipes out a difficult gauntlet "but you are not showing the power of your character, you are showing the power of his spells". Or a fighter destroys a powerful monster: "you are not showing the power of your character, you are showing the power of his feats".
Yeah, right
Why is this a competition? Who cares if a non-caster is using spell-trigger items?
Just make a caster and blow away the encounters already.
Warlock 4 / eidolancer 1
I'm undead, incomporeal, and will walk through everything but the wraith whom I will blast to nothing since it can't do anything but 1d4 dmg to me. My ghost feat at lvl 5 (lvl 1 ediolancer) is corrupting touch which lets me make a touch attack at 1d4 dmg to corporeal targets meaning there's jack the dragon can do to me and I will kill it and everything else off easily. And summon swarm invocation just for fun. If I actually take damage (probably 1 or 2 hits from wraith) I can UMD to use a wand of inflict to heal myself since you guys claim gear = power.
That clarifies it a bit. Anyways, if the dungeon full of CR 10 encounters comes to existense, the characters are already at levels where take can start taking Swiftblade and other gish classes.
To propose a compromise: How about allowing Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom and whatnot gishes to the dungeons that feature casters that are level 7 or above?
These all were allowed over two weeks ago once it was explained to me that gishes do not need noncasters.
Also -- I have added some people to my ignore lists so if I do not respond to you, that might be why.
Please, show me where has WotC said that. Because the Magic Item Compendium published just a few months ago does exactly the contrary to what you are claiming they are saying.
Oh, I am showing the power of my character, indeed. It is like saying, after a wizard wipes out a difficult gauntlet "but you are not showing the power of your character, you are showing the power of his spells". Or a fighter destroys a powerful monster: "you are not showing the power of your character, you are showing the power of his feats".
Yeah, right
Try reading the DEV blogs and listening to the podcasts on the main site. They are not putting magic item generation into 4E for this very reason. If you want an item you will have to work with your DM, quest for it or have it provided as treasure. market prices are soon to be a thing of the past.
And yes, I do have a serious problem with people saying spells arn't a spellcaster's power just because some smuck can quaf a pot of it. You seek to separate a caster from his spells and see how he fairs. Try separating a non-caster from his gear and see how he fairs.
These all were allowed over two weeks ago once it was explained to me that gishes do not need noncasters.
Also -- I have added some people to my ignore lists so if I do not respond to you, that might be why.
I submitted my post too accidentally. I edited in another sentence if you wish to have a look at it. Anyways, when I'm finished with the current build, I might give Swiftblade a try.
I think allowing casters have one level dip to a noncasting class at level 7 to enter, for example, Jade Phoenix Mage is reasonable figuring that longer the game goes, less negligible that one level is going to be. Crusader 1/Wizard6/JPM 1 is a spellcaster to me. However, if you really think it is out of limits (at really low-levels, I'll agree with you, the effects of that one level are more concrete), then no noncaster dips. I'll stop arguing about, we see the issue in different ways and this is your thread, you handle the rules. Sorry if I was rude or seemed angry before.
If the ignore list doesn't effect my replies in this thread, then there won't be any inconveniencies. I haven't sent a PM eversince I answered to the one you sent me.
To propose a compromise: How about allowing Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom and whatnot gishes to the dungeons that feature casters that are level 7 or above? Possibly with a dip to a noncaster class that is. Of course, Alter self can help gishes with the prerequisites of most gish PrCs.
Sorry, you cannot use a single level in a non-caster base class to prove the overpoweredness of a casters. The obvious question is "If casters are so overpowered, why do you include a level (or so) of noncaster-ed-ness"
Non-casters cannot use a single level in a caster base class to prove the overpoweredness of a non-casters. The obvious question is "If the addition of one level of a caster class (cloistered cleric, magic domain) is enough to gain access to almost all spells via spell trigger items, then what is the point in taking more levels?"
PrCs can be used to help you out though.
I hope this helps. Now, if you would like to make one with mixing caster and noncaster levels, feel free -- but you are not going to be able to hold it up as an example of overpoweredness of casters.
Warlock 4 / eidolancer 1
I'm undead, incomporeal, and will walk through everything but the wraith whom I will blast to nothing since it can't do anything but 1d4 dmg to me. My ghost feat at lvl 5 (lvl 1 ediolancer) is corrupting touch which lets me make a touch attack at 1d4 dmg to corporeal targets meaning there's jack the dragon can do to me and I will kill it and everything else off easily. And summon swarm invocation just for fun. If I actually take damage (probably 1 or 2 hits from wraith) I can UMD to use a wand of inflict to heal myself since you guys claim gear = power.
1: What's an Eidolancer?
2: What are you doing about the dragon's breath weapon? It'll hit half the time.
Sorry, you cannot use a single level in a non-caster base class to prove the overpoweredness of a casters. The obvious question is "If casters are so overpowered, why do you include a level (or so) of noncaster-ed-ness"
Non-casters cannot use a single level in a caster base class to prove the overpoweredness of a non-casters. The obvious question is "If the addition of one level of a caster class (cloistered cleric, magic domain) is enough to gain access to almost all spells via spell trigger items, then what is the point in taking more levels?"
PrCs can be used to help you out though.
I hope this helps. Now, if you would like to make one with mixing caster and noncaster levels, feel free -- but you are not going to be able to hold it up as an example of overpoweredness of casters.
Sure thing. Your thread, your rules. Now I really think I have to come up with a gish to this challenge just so that this debate wasn't absolutely unnecessary and useless.
More I think of it, maybe I should try a melee character as well. I have already something in my mind, but I'll help carnivore finish Alix 2.0 before anything new.
I hope this helps. Now, if you would like to make one with mixing caster and noncaster levels, feel free -- but you are not going to be able to hold it up as an example of overpoweredness of casters.
Why? Here's your option in a party (there is already a primary arcane caster, a skillmonkey, and primary divine caster):
Warblade
Gish
They both fill the same role, but what if the gish does it better to the point that the warblade is rendered redundant? How is completely replacing a noncaster not overpowered?
As for multiclassing:
Wizard 6/ ruathar 3/ Dragonslayer 1/ Swiftblade 10
Only real need for multiclassing is for proficiencies to enter spellsword earlier.
Archivist 6/ Ruathar 3/ Knight of the raven 10/ Prestige pally 1 works as well.
Was that aimed at someone in particular? If it was targetted at me, I'd be glad to say that I don't care even if they used Ice assassin to go through the gauntlet. I just don't like banning gishes. Moreover, I posted a build already...
No, it was not aimed at you. I am just waiting for some overpowered casters to show up already, and for the most part, this thread is simply filled with discussions/debate over silly and irrelevant details.
It seems to me that the way casters are trumpeted around here, this wouldn't have been such a production. I understand there are certain constraints made by the OP, but that shouldn't matter much. Pretty much everyone agrees that straight Druid 20, or Wizard 20, or Cleric 20 are overpowered. Even in core. This should be very easy to demonstrate. We hear about staple spells all of the time. What's the deal?
Either we've been using the term overpowered on these boards incorrectly, or people need to stop trying to melee their way through these encounters.
If I actually take damage (probably 1 or 2 hits from wraith) I can UMD to use a wand of inflict to heal myself since you guys claim gear = power.
Good grief. Since you lumped me in...
Go play a different game. One where you do not have the option of buying equipment, including equipment that allows you to replicate spellcasting. After you get involved in this game, go find a forum somewhere online and discuss it.
I understand that a lot of people think gear is stupid. I happen to loathe needing a lot of gear to stay alive at later levels. But the fact is, the game is designed to work that way. No matter what character you are playing. If you think it sucks, ok. It sucks. But stop trying to remove it from these discussions. It is a part of the game, a much needed part of the game. The DMG assumes that characters will have wealth, and it assumes that they will have access to items.
Argaud's rogue is no different than a fantasy version of Batman. Batman augments his skill in martial arts with gizmos and gadgets. I see no reason why a character in D&D can't use his wealth to obtain magic items that allow him to continue adventuring. It even makes perfect logical sense considering how well he fared in the encounters. Spend my money on an item that buffs me up and lets me win? Uh... yes please.
In the end, everyone is spending some of their resources to achieve some greater end. Whether it is wealth, feats, skills, or spells. I can't imagine why anyone would harp about you using a Wand of Inflict to heal yourself. That's the whole idea behind money and items.
(Also, I think this is the first time I have ever seen something from Ghostwalk referenced.)
Here is my attempt at CR6.
... dealing 4d6+1d6+1d6+3 = 24 damage, killing it.
Do you wonder if people might continue to question you if you continue to ignore the rules?
Are you still trying to apply burning brand -- not to mention punishing stance (still no response from CustServe) -- to your fire riposte?
1: What's an Eidolancer?
Ghost walk undead caster class.
2: What are you doing about the dragon's breath weapon? It'll hit half the time.
Negate it completely. Summon swarm into the room with the dragon while inside the wall. It may take a little while but hey, I can do it at will so no problem. Manticore will probably go down the same way, the wraith is subject to full effects of eldritch blast since we are both incorporeal, snakes don't have a shot, and the rug will never activate since it have no way to know I'm there.
Wizard is a frail old man in a robe, whose job is to tell reality to get on his knees and shut up. If he can grab a sword and beat up a Fighter with it and at the same time retain the possibility of throwing Maw of Chaoses, Fireballs and Teleports around, he is overpowered to me.
Khan: Good job with the Batman reference. Anyone connecting Batman and D&D that well deserves a cookie.
First off, spells are what the casters use to accomplish their goals; much like the weapons and armor of the warriors. If we are going to assume that casters are not overpowered but their spells can be, then we must take the same assumption with non-casters.
the bolded statement is not entirely accurate of what some of us (me at the very least) are trying to say. Spells may be overpowered, and thus spellcasters that use those spells may also be overpowered, but if a non-caster also has access to those same spells, how can the spellcaster then be overpowered compared to the non-caster, when both have access to the spell that is overpowered. It has not been shown that a caster has any inherent bonus when using these spells to put them in a superior ranking. It has also not been shown that the spells (at these levels at least) that are not easily duplicated by gear options offer any kind of significant power to raise casters to a superior rank.
To claim your superior because you can benefit from things available to anyone, but that you can save a buck while doing it, even though you can't monopolize on the bonus's as well (reach and size increase to damage are better utilized by class's that hit more often (iteratives, and bonus attacks from feats like cleave and combat reflex's), more successfully (higher BAB and str boost to hit) and harder (higher str)). I'm sorry, It's not going to stick. demonstrate casters are superior with options that are only available/practical for casters.
We end up with nearly all classes becoming too weak for comparison. Spells are an intrinsic part of spellcasters and need to be taken into account when determining power level. Just like when many of us try to show that fighters don't suck because we can choose the right feats and gear. Spells are one of the class abilities of casters, just like feats are for the fighter, rage is for the barbarian, etc.
you'll notice we don't claim fighters are powerful because of their gear, we merely use gear to demonstrate the weaknesses people claim fighters have are relatively easy to overcome, and with fairly generic items (flight item alone solves well over half the issues people have with fighters). Casters using these spells is perfectly acceptable, but if they are usable by others as well, then it is not a caster monopoly and a caster can't be said to be superior to the others.
Going back to fighter debates, how many times do people say that we can't claim a fighter is powerful because gear is available to everyone (despite the fact thats not a claim we make)?
Encounter 1: Were-Tiger (CR 5) Unicorn (CR 3), dense forest, 20' sight range, not mounted, Unicorn attempts charge/gore initially, will fall back and heal itself and companion if needed
Encounter 2: Spiked Blocks from Ceiling: CR 6, mechanical, location trigger, repair reset, attack +20 melee (6d6, spikes), multiple targets (all targets in 10'x10' area), search DC 24, Disable DC 20
Encounter 3: 3x Ghast (CR 3 each)
Encounter 4: Lamia (CR 6), uses abilities per SRD to attempt surprise
Encounter 5: 6 Headed Cryo-Hydra (CR 6), foreknowledge of Cryo requires scouting/divination, no one has lived to know it's not just a hydra
and the one here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14487971&postcount=911
Will anyone object if I go with the first one, since it is a hell of a lot easier to run, then if I have time, doing the second?
Also, Calronmoonflower, while putting together interesting and neat encounters (indeed, I suggest you DM that), put in mostly undead encounters, 3 of which are within my ability to control. And unlike the CR 5 encounters, I won't hold off using my turn undead ability because "It isn't nice."
And I only recently bought Tome of Battle and haven't had time to look through it enough to figure out what the vampire is doing, although that can always be solved by turning it.
Do you wonder if people might continue to question you if you continue to ignore the rules?
Are you still trying to apply burning brand -- not to mention punishing stance (still no response from CustServe) -- to your fire riposte?
What did I do wrong this time?
The boost was initiated on my turn and it affected attacks I did on my turn?
If a boost affects your attacks, it applies to all your attacks for the round it was initiated, but its effect ends at the end of your turn. A boost's effects applies for its duration, no matter which weapon you might wield that round. Even if you switch weapons in the middle of your turn, the effect of the boost applies to your new weapon as readily as the previous weapon.
What did I do wrong this time? (excluding the punishing stance question we have outstanding to CustServ)
Summon swarm into the room with the dragon while inside the wall.
You'll have to poke some part of your body out, or else I believe the wall blocks line of effect.
To claim your superior because you can benefit from things available to anyone, but that you can save a buck while doing it, even though you can't monopolize on the bonus's as well (reach and size increase to damage are better utilized by class's that hit more often (iteratives, and bonus attacks from feats like cleave and combat reflex's), more successfully (higher BAB and str boost to hit) and harder (higher str)). I'm sorry, It's not going to stick. demonstrate casters are superior with options that are only available/practical for casters.
Is it not possible to get everything a fighter has through magical gear as well, thus everything should be perfectly balanced?
Can you provide a melee build with options only available/practical to melee?
You'll have to poke some part of your body out, or else I believe the wall blocks line of effect.
Stand partially in the floor, go prone as a free action.
Next round stand as a move, cast, go prone as a free action?
You'll have to poke some part of your body out, or else I believe the wall blocks line of effect.
Summon swarm is conjuration (summoning). It doesn't require line of effect or even line of sight to use. And the swarm homes in on the nearest living creature to attack it if there is not one already in it's area.
Show
Lump the demo guy.
Water halfling
Abjurer
Specialist abjurer, focused specialist abjurer.
Lost, illusions, evocations, enchantments.
First level: empower
Flaw: metamagic school focus
Flaw: purify spell
Wizard Scribe scroll
Level 3: improved familiar
Level 5 wizard: sudden maximize.
Flaws: noncombatant, murky eyed
Traits: slow, spellgifted.
Items: 100 strips of purified explosive runes, on easy to draw sticks . 30 maximized, purified explosive runes, on easy to draw sticks. 4 bundles of sticks, with 6 runes per, air elemental familiar (good aligned. 100.) 2 quivers of Ehlona (3600), amulet of health +2 (4000) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300)
Elite array stats:
Stre: 10 (8)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13 (15/17)
Inte: 16 level increase
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Attacks: 2/6/-3
Saves: 6, 7, 7
Spells
0-6 resistance,
1-1 mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, detect secret doors.
2-protection from arrows, protection from energy, 2 glitterdust, darkvision.
3-2 dispel magic, two open.
AC(10+1+3+4+4+(2)) = 22/24
HP=29
Pre cast, mage armour, protection from arrows, shield, protection from evil, darkvision. I’m holding a piece of paper in each hand, as is the familiar, who is right beside me. These slips are all written in auranel, so we both can read it.
Water halfling
Abjurer
Specialist abjurer, focused specialist abjurer.
Lost, illusions, evocations, enchantments.
First level: empower
Flaw: metamagic school focus
Flaw: purify spell
Wizard Scribe scroll
Level 3: improved familiar
Level 5 wizard: sudden maximize.
Flaws: noncombatant, murky eyed
Traits: slow, spellgifted.
Items: 100 strips of purified explosive runes, on easy to draw sticks . 30 maximized, purified explosive runes, on easy to draw sticks. 4 bundles of sticks, with 6 runes per, air elemental familiar (good aligned. 100.) 2 quivers of Ehlona (3600), amulet of health +2 (4000) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300)
Elite array stats:
Stre: 10 (8)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 13 (15/17)
Inte: 16 level increase
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Attacks: 2/6/-3
Saves: 6, 7, 7
Spells
0-6 resistance,
1-1 mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, detect secret doors.
2-protection from arrows, protection from energy, 2 glitterdust, darkvision.
3-2 dispel magic, two open.
AC(10+1+3+4+4+(2)) = 22/24
HP=29
Pre cast, mage armour, protection from arrows, shield, protection from evil, darkvision. I’m holding a piece of paper in each hand, as is the familiar, who is right beside me. These slips are all written in auranel, so we both can read it.
These tactics ... are terrific. I don't know what to say except that I am blown away ... literally.
I see almost no resources used (by gp) and each encounter bypassed.
Yeah. Abjurers are broken.
Just wait until higher levels when he gets to go into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Whats that, total immunity to most everything? Mmmm, delicious ...
edit: ninja'ed
Did forget to half damage for the neutrals though. I'll go and do that, but it makes no difference. Just means I load more pieces into my scroll cases.
Is it not possible to get everything a fighter has through magical gear as well, thus everything should be perfectly balanced?
Can you provide a melee build with options only available/practical to melee?
I'm not aware of any item or spell that stacks with itself to grant so many bonus feats.
Also, keep in mind, we're not claiming melee is superior to casters (I think many believe that this is in fact the stance being taken, but it's not), but rather they're about on par, power wise (AKA casters are not superior, they are about equal. likely a little more powerful at mid levels, but not to the degree many claim them to be). If both caster and non-caster result in completing goals with similar results (successes and resources used), then it seems they're about on par, which doesn't support the many claims of caster superiority being touted (see first page for examples). As it stands now, we have only looked at the lower levels, but many of those claims of superiority included these lower levels, so it's a reasonable place to start.
----------------------------------
Summon swarm is conjuration (summoning). It doesn't require line of effect or even line of sight to use. And the swarm homes in on the nearest living creature to attack it if there is not one already in it's area.
PHB pg 176. Line of effect, second paragraph, first sentence.
You must must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster).
not sure how you figured you didn't need line of effect?
also, swarms take more damage from AoE's then normal (+50%. DMG swarm traits), such as the dragons breath weapon. However, with that being said, The dragon still couldn't keep up with your swarm production due to it's breath delay, and even with maneuverability/kiting the swarms, best it could do is stave you off for a while (eventually a few bad moves will result in getting caught in a swarm and nauseated and thats the end of that)
I find it amusing one of the class's claimed to be the weakest of the spellcasters has performed the best so far.
I'm not aware of any item or spell that stacks with itself to grant so many bonus feats.
There's no reason to assume that items the duplicate feats wouldn't stack, and many reasons to assume they would. In example:
Dash feat = Boots of Striding and Springing (10' movement).
Iron Will = +2 fort save item
Improved Initiative = Warning Weapon (+4 init)
Track = Mask of the Tiger (Track and other bonuses)
Snatch Arrows = Gloves of Arrow Snatching
Normally I would agree with you, but I have combat reflexes, so I can make an AoO while flatfooted.
Sorry about that.
Ah, I was just copying the URL from the top of the page -- must have copied it from a reply link instead of a normal one.
I make many mistakes myself. I pointed it out as it will help get to the info.
I can't figure out any way to get past the DC 16 save or die effect.
That's really a killer.
There's no reason to assume that items the duplicate feats wouldn't stack, and many reasons to assume they would. In example:
Dash feat = Boots of Striding and Springing (10' movement).
Iron Will = +2 fort save item
Improved Initiative = Warning Weapon (+4 init)
Track = Mask of the Tiger (Track and other bonuses)
Snatch Arrows = Gloves of Arrow Snatching
Ayup, there are numerous items that give feat-like powers. And many of them stack with feats! Carry an eager dagger, put warning in your armor spikes (or is it the other way around?) take improved initiative... congrats, now you have a +11.
There's no reason to assume that items the duplicate feats wouldn't stack, and many reasons to assume they would. In example:
Dash feat = Boots of Striding and Springing (10' movement).
Iron Will = +2 fort save item
Improved Initiative = Warning Weapon (+4 init)
Track = Mask of the Tiger (Track and other bonuses)
Snatch Arrows = Gloves of Arrow Snatching
The stacking was more in reference to spells (I believe heroics doesn't stack with itself. one at a time. not positive though). (Plus, notice my use of "stacks with itself to grant bonus feats" I suppose I should have clarified bonus feats as non specific bonus feats. Sure you can get improved init, tack and others, if your trying to make a tripper build, those aren't going to help get the combat expertise, improved trip, jutenbrand (sp?), combat reflex's, etc etc etc. Now, admittedly, the core of the tripper build could still be taken using level feats, but there are still quite a few feats still missing that items and spells can't generically replace.
In general though, I don't think there is enough gear/spell options (that are unique to casters. IE, using a belt of growth to replace jutenbrand doesn't do much good when the melee with jutenbrand also has a belt of growth. a belt of jutenbrand, that granted the feat, and didn't stack with the feat if it already was possessed, would be relevant.) to make a jack-be-quick or gattling chain tripper type melee using spells and Items alone. On the same token, I don't believe items and gear can't duplicate some of the things casters can do (High DC's. metamagic, some of the high level spells are just impractical to use as gear). Both options exist and offer something the other option doesn't, the value of those somethings is often more a matter of personal preference then actual power IMHO
Try reading the DEV blogs and listening to the podcasts on the main site. They are not putting magic item generation into 4E for this very reason. If you want an item you will have to work with your DM, quest for it or have it provided as treasure. market prices are soon to be a thing of the past.
And yes, I do have a serious problem with people saying spells arn't a spellcaster's power just because some smuck can quaf a pot of it. You seek to separate a caster from his spells and see how he fairs. Try separating a non-caster from his gear and see how he fairs.
Although the philosophy of 4th edition might be different there is absolutely no doubt that in 3.5 the game is designed with characters having dozens of magical trinkets and almost full access to magic-mart.
This was clearly a planned design and it is not surprising at all when we consider that 3E came in 2000 and 3.5 in 2003. Look at the computer games of the time and you will see where the idea of having huge numbers of magical items and an item market came. We are lucky they didn't try to implement auction houses for adventurers.
A DC 18 save of die used twice against a 5th level character was what did me in.
However, having the crypt full of undead, and two of them having save-or-die will (16 and 18) save abilities vs noncasters (guaranteed to have weak will saves) was rough.
Potion of Protection from Evil?
Based on the clues listed, why are you thinking vampire instead of mummy?
What did I do wrong this time?
The boost was initiated on my turn and it affected attacks I did on my turn?
What did I do wrong this time? (excluding the punishing stance question we have outstanding to CustServ)
Fire Riposte: 4d6 - OK. This isn't on your turn, it's on the monster's turn.
Punishing Stance: 1d6 - no answer from CustServ yet, so leave it in for now.
Burning Brand: 1d6+3 until the end of your turn.
Once your turn is over, burning brand no longer adds that 1d6+3. This was covered already in the thread, and calculations were redone without it. Just because the outcome was much the same without the burning brand damage in the first example fight, does not mean you can keep adding it in your remaining example fights, such as the one I quoted.
It may end up exactly the same for the outcome, but if that's the case, why not just do it legal-like anyway?
PAO Man
Gray Elf
Warmage 5
8 Str
12 Dex (base 10 +2 Racial)
10 Con (base 12 -2 Racial)
15 Int (base 13 +2 racial)
14 Wis
16 Cha (base 15, +1 level)
after PAO: (+Str 31, Dex 25, Con 25, Int 14)
31 Str
25 Dex
25 Con
14 Int
14 Wis
16 Cha (base 15, +1 level)
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)
Armor Class: AC 39 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural+ 4 chain shirt) touch 16, flat-footed 32
Hitpoints:5d6(14)+45 = 59 hit points
Initiative +8
Feats:
Otherworldy
Precocious apprentice
Dragonic aura (vigor),
Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Skills:(Ranks+Bonuses) Concentration 16, Spellcraft 10, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Craft (Alchemy) 10
Items
Items:
4300gp Large +1 Serren Wood Club(2d6)
400 gp Large Chain Shirt with armor spikes
1200 gp pay spell caster to cast PAO into HORNED DEVIL CL 15,
Alchemical items...self crafted=1/2 cost[indent]
200gp 4xMushroom powder ...+2 Alchemical to Int and Cha for 1 hour,and -1 Str...later +2 Alchemical Wis 2d4 hours and -2 Str and Con for 2d4 hours,BoVD:
500gp 2xTerran Brandy ....+2 Alchemical to Caster level for 1d20+20 minutes, and 2 points Con Damage,BoVD:
300gp 2 doses: Redflower Leaves..300gp...gives +4 competence to Attacks vs single creature/round for 10 min. (Lords of Darkness)[/indent]
-Healing belt 750gp
-2xPotion of Hide from undead 100gp
-Potion of Protection from Acid 300gp
Misc adventuring gear:
-3xSpell component pouch 15 gp
-Backpack (empty) 2 gp
-3xSaddlebags 12gp
-Bedroll 1 sp
-Block and tackle 5 gp
-10xCase, map or scroll 10 gp
- Fishhook 1 sp
-10xFlask (empty) 3sp
-Flint and steel 1 gp
-Grappling hook 1 gp
-Hammer 5 sp
-5xInk (1 oz. vial) 40 gp (colors: Blackx2, Red, Blue, yellow)
-5xInkpen 5 sp —
-Lantern, bullseye 12 gp
-2xMirror, small steel 20 gp
-Mug/Tankard, clay 2 cp
-5xOil (1-pint flask) 5sp
-10xPaper (sheet) 4gp
-10xParchment (sheet) 2 gp
-5xPiton 5sp
-5xPouch, belt (empty) 5 gp
-10xRations, trail (per day) 5gp
-Rope, silk (100ft.) 20gp
-10xSack (empty) 1gp
-Sealing wax 1 gp 1 lb.
-Sewing needle 5 sp
-Signal whistle 8 sp
-Signet ring 5 gp
-Soap (per lb.) 5 sp
-Spade or shovel 2 gp
-Tent 10 gp
-10xVial ink or potion 10 gp
-3xWaterskin 3 gp
-Cold weather outfit 8 gp
-Courtier’s outfit 30 gp (use some Jewelry from Noble outfit)
-Explorer’s outfit 10 gp
-Noble’s outfit 175 gp (+ jewelry)
-Scholar’s outfit 5 gp
-Traveler’s outfit 1 gp
-Marshmellows, stick and a mug of coke 1sp
Animal buddies:
- Magebred Warbeast Riding dog 500gp
-Magebred Warbeast Light Warhorse 700gp
a little left to spend ... if needed
Items:
4300gp Large +1 Serren Wood Club(2d6)
400 gp Large Chain Shirt with armor spikes
1200 gp pay spell caster to cast PAO into HORNED DEVIL CL 15,
Alchemical items...self crafted=1/2 cost[indent]
200gp 4xMushroom powder ...+2 Alchemical to Int and Cha for 1 hour,and -1 Str...later +2 Alchemical Wis 2d4 hours and -2 Str and Con for 2d4 hours,BoVD:
500gp 2xTerran Brandy ....+2 Alchemical to Caster level for 1d20+20 minutes, and 2 points Con Damage,BoVD:
300gp 2 doses: Redflower Leaves..300gp...gives +4 competence to Attacks vs single creature/round for 10 min. (Lords of Darkness)[/indent]
-Healing belt 750gp
-2xPotion of Hide from undead 100gp
-Potion of Protection from Acid 300gp
Misc adventuring gear:
-3xSpell component pouch 15 gp
-Backpack (empty) 2 gp
-3xSaddlebags 12gp
-Bedroll 1 sp
-Block and tackle 5 gp
-10xCase, map or scroll 10 gp
- Fishhook 1 sp
-10xFlask (empty) 3sp
-Flint and steel 1 gp
-Grappling hook 1 gp
-Hammer 5 sp
-5xInk (1 oz. vial) 40 gp (colors: Blackx2, Red, Blue, yellow)
-5xInkpen 5 sp —
-Lantern, bullseye 12 gp
-2xMirror, small steel 20 gp
-Mug/Tankard, clay 2 cp
-5xOil (1-pint flask) 5sp
-10xPaper (sheet) 4gp
-10xParchment (sheet) 2 gp
-5xPiton 5sp
-5xPouch, belt (empty) 5 gp
-10xRations, trail (per day) 5gp
-Rope, silk (100ft.) 20gp
-10xSack (empty) 1gp
-Sealing wax 1 gp 1 lb.
-Sewing needle 5 sp
-Signal whistle 8 sp
-Signet ring 5 gp
-Soap (per lb.) 5 sp
-Spade or shovel 2 gp
-Tent 10 gp
-10xVial ink or potion 10 gp
-3xWaterskin 3 gp
-Cold weather outfit 8 gp
-Courtier’s outfit 30 gp (use some Jewelry from Noble outfit)
-Explorer’s outfit 10 gp
-Noble’s outfit 175 gp (+ jewelry)
-Scholar’s outfit 5 gp
-Traveler’s outfit 1 gp
-Marshmellows, stick and a mug of coke 1sp
Animal buddies:
- Magebred Warbeast Riding dog 500gp
-Magebred Warbeast Light Warhorse 700gp
a little left to spend ... if needed
Fire Riposte: 4d6 - OK. This isn't on your turn, it's on the monster's turn.
Punishing Stance: 1d6 - no answer from CustServ yet, so leave it in for now.
Burning Brand: 1d6+3 until the end of your turn.
Once your turn is over, burning brand no longer adds that 1d6+3. This was covered already in the thread, and calculations were redone without it. Just because the outcome was much the same without the burning brand damage in the first example fight, does not mean you can keep adding it in your remaining example fights, such as the one I quoted.
It may end up exactly the same for the outcome, but if that's the case, why not just do it legal-like anyway?
How is it the monster's turn? It is during my move action!
!
for both the 5th lvl encounter cave and 6th lvl..... this should work... since i love Argauds idea to buy a high level spell caster services.... heres my tribute, with a caster build
PAO ManShow
Gray Elf
Warmage 5
8 Str
12 Dex (base 10 +2 Racial)
10 Con (base 12 -2 Racial)
15 Int (base 13 +2 racial)
14 Wis
16 Cha (base 15, +1 level)
after PAO: (+Str 31, Dex 25, Con 25, Int 14)
31 Str
25 Dex
25 Con
14 Int
14 Wis
16 Cha (base 15, +1 level)
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)
Armor Class: AC 39 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural+ 4 chain shirt) touch 16, flat-footed 32
Hitpoints:5d6(14)+45 = 59 hit points
Initiative +8
Feats:
Otherworldy
Precocious apprentice
Dragonic aura (vigor),
Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Skills:(Ranks+Bonuses) Concentration 16, Spellcraft 10, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Craft (Alchemy) 10Items
Items:
4300gp Large +1 Serren Wood Club(2d6)
400 gp Large Chain Shirt with armor spikes
1200 gp pay spell caster to cast PAO into HORNED DEVIL CL 15,
Alchemical items...self crafted=1/2 cost[indent]
200gp 4xMushroom powder ...+2 Alchemical to Int and Cha for 1 hour,and -1 Str...later +2 Alchemical Wis 2d4 hours and -2 Str and Con for 2d4 hours,BoVD:
500gp 2xTerran Brandy ....+2 Alchemical to Caster level for 1d20+20 minutes, and 2 points Con Damage,BoVD:
300gp 2 doses: Redflower Leaves..300gp...gives +4 competence to Attacks vs single creature/round for 10 min. (Lords of Darkness)[/indent]
-Healing belt 750gp
-2xPotion of Hide from undead 100gp
-Potion of Protection from Acid 300gp
Misc adventuring gear:
-3xSpell component pouch 15 gp
-Backpack (empty) 2 gp
-3xSaddlebags 12gp
-Bedroll 1 sp
-Block and tackle 5 gp
-10xCase, map or scroll 10 gp
- Fishhook 1 sp
-10xFlask (empty) 3sp
-Flint and steel 1 gp
-Grappling hook 1 gp
-Hammer 5 sp
-5xInk (1 oz. vial) 40 gp (colors: Blackx2, Red, Blue, yellow)
-5xInkpen 5 sp —
-Lantern, bullseye 12 gp
-2xMirror, small steel 20 gp
-Mug/Tankard, clay 2 cp
-5xOil (1-pint flask) 5sp
-10xPaper (sheet) 4gp
-10xParchment (sheet) 2 gp
-5xPiton 5sp
-5xPouch, belt (empty) 5 gp
-10xRations, trail (per day) 5gp
-Rope, silk (100ft.) 20gp
-10xSack (empty) 1gp
-Sealing wax 1 gp 1 lb.
-Sewing needle 5 sp
-Signal whistle 8 sp
-Signet ring 5 gp
-Soap (per lb.) 5 sp
-Spade or shovel 2 gp
-Tent 10 gp
-10xVial ink or potion 10 gp
-3xWaterskin 3 gp
-Cold weather outfit 8 gp
-Courtier’s outfit 30 gp (use some Jewelry from Noble outfit)
-Explorer’s outfit 10 gp
-Noble’s outfit 175 gp (+ jewelry)
-Scholar’s outfit 5 gp
-Traveler’s outfit 1 gp
-Marshmellows, stick and a mug of coke 1sp
Animal buddies:
- Magebred Warbeast Riding dog 500gp
-Magebred Warbeast Light Warhorse 700gp
a little left to spend ... if needed
Issues: You cannot get Polymorphed into something with more HD than you have (per rules).
You do not have the rod of metamagic (extend).
That is why dwarf ancestor is so powerful: low HD for high stats and ridiculous natural armor.
Issues: You cannot get Polymorphed into something with more HD than you have (per rules).
You do not have the rod of metamagic (extend).
This is true with Polymorph, but not PaO. One of the examples they give is "Shrew to Manticore". This was also addressed in the FAQ and/or Rules of the Game. The max 15 HD limit is still in place, but the limit of no more than the targets hit dice is not.
What properties of polymorph are inherited for the spell
polymorph any object (Player’s Handbook, page 263)? The
guidelines suggest that it overrides the normal rules for
creature type (an object isn’t any type of creature) and Hit
Die limits (turning a pebble into a human or a shrew into a
manticore, for example), but the spell doesn’t explicitly
describe the changes.
You correctly note that polymorph any object isn’t as clear
as it could be. The intent of the spell, however, becomes clear
by reading the accompanying charts. Polymorph any object
retains all the limitations of polymorph except as follows:
• It can affect an object, and also adds “object” to the list of
new forms allowed. It doesn’t add any more eligible creature
types for the new form (you can’t use polymorph any object to
assume the form of a construct, elemental, outsider, or undead).
• The assumed form still can’t have more Hit Dice than
your caster level (to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level), but
the secondary limit of the subject’s original HD doesn’t apply.
A pebble (with no HD) or a lizard (with 1 HD) can be
transformed into any form whose HD don’t exceed 15 or the
caster’s level, whichever is lower. (Arguably, polymorph any
object should have a higher HD cap than polymorph, but that’s
not how the spell is written.) The new form can even have no
HD at all (as in the case of a creature polymorphed into an
object).
Kinda stopped following this thread since it wandered off course, but just thought I would point out that you cannot trip incorporeal opponents. I noticed Meyer did this in the CR6 fight.
Good catch. I kinda missed the whole "incorporal" thing. I need to redo that fight big time then (50% miss chance, cannot use tactics posted, etc)
This is true with Polymorph, but not PaO. One of the examples they give is "Shrew to Manticore". This was also addressed in the FAQ and/or Rules of the Game. The max 15 HD limit is still in place, but the limit of no more than the targets hit dice is not.
Excellent!
Now a level 5 commoner specialized in underwater basketweaving can easily win the gauntlet thanks to PAO.
He does not even need to be otherwordly, I am pretty sure a war troll will be powerful enough.
This it is certainly a hard punch in the face of those posters using alter self or polymorph to proclaim the power of the casters. It means huge melee power for 1200 gold for anyone.
Excellent!
Now a level 5 commoner specialized in underwater basketweaving can easily win the gauntlet thanks to PAO.
He does not even need to be otherwordly, I am pretty sure a war troll will be powerful enough.
This it is certainly a hard punch in the face of those posters using alter self or polymorph to proclaim the power of the casters. It means huge melee power for 1200 gold for anyone.
Why do you think PAO is widely considered the most game-breaking spell in the PHB?
Issues: You cannot get Polymorphed into something with more HD than you have (per rules).
You do not have the rod of metamagic (extend).
as PhaedrusXY showed ..... yes i can .... i dont need a Rod of Extend ... when i have PAO cast the way it is... it is a permanent Effect..... if you wanted cheesy Overpowered characters.. within your guidelines... whats the problem..... you allowed it for Argaud .... and you credit him with a total win for each area..... this is an even stronger build, and will beat probably up to a CR 8-9 encounter easily..... i didnt bother with all the details, as most are irrelavant for this build..... what you need to Know:
1) can they hit me.......... NO(except Wraith)
2)can i Hit them ............ yes, Melee , Spells, Fiery Bursts
3)can i deal out more damage than i take ...... ABSOLUTELY
4)is it overpowered for these encounters.......YES
5)would most DMs allow it.................... NO
6)is it unbalancing .............................. yes
but as has already been pointed out:
Polymorph(the Whole chain: Alter Self, Poly, PAO, Shapechange).... all boost casters far more.....why??
Because they Naturally Gain Access by means of thier Spells without resorting to NPCs or Equipment.
Casters get this at a cost though...... they give up a lot in early levels, but once they get it.... they can really become powerful
unless you change the rules to Disallow gaining access by means of Equipment(which i reccomend as have others)... this build is legal and should be considered
ALL Hail PAO Man
:D
ALL Hail PAO Man
:D
Pure win.
also the same will be seen for Divine Metamagic(Persistant)..... Clerics gain similar Power(those with Transmutation Domain even get more Power)
what makes thier Spells stronger is the Boost in Duration.... a Cleric can spend even fewer resources with Rods of Extend and DMM(Persistant)...they can make spells last 2 Days!!!!
@ lvl 7 Clerics start taking the lead with DMM(Persistant) and Reserve and Domain Feats
the key is to conserve limited Resources(Spells), the above mentioned feats do just that ..... which makes Casters even Stronger than Spells alone would make them
:D
if you wanted cheesy Overpowered characters.. within your guidelines... whats the problem..... you allowed it for Argaud .... and you credit him with a total win for each area..... this is an even stronger build, and will beat probably up to a CR 8-9 encounter easily..... i didnt bother with all the details, as most are irrelavant for this build..... what you need to Know:
Because they Naturally Gain Access by means of thier Spells without resorting to NPCs or Equipment.
Casters get this at a cost though...... they give up a lot in early levels, but once they get it.... they can really become powerful
unless you change the rules to Disallow gaining access by means of Equipment(which i reccomend as have others)... this build is legal and should be considered
:D
To respond to your points:
1) You realize that Argaud can post a commoner with the same stats and do the same thing.
2) I cannot say that PAO is not allowed to be bought but can be allowed to be cast (hypocrisy).
3) Most of the issues with PAO also exists with Alter Self cheese (which is very cheaply done via a wand CL5 or from a scroll). Denying PAO but allowing Alter Self cause the same issue.
4) There are several caster builds which rely upon Alter Self cheese. The only way to disallow this is to disqualify them. Is that fair?
5) Notice: By not posting most of the build, you realize that the build is not what is winning, it is the spell cast by an NPC (or a scroll or whatever). If the build is irrelevant, it shows nothing. That was the point of the PAO Elf. It was not to show caster power vs noncaster power, but the utter brokenness of the spell, and to show it was equally accessible to noncasters.
Polymorph(the Whole chain: Alter Self, Poly, PAO, Shapechange).... all boost casters far more.....why??
Because they Naturally Gain Access by means of thier Spells without resorting to NPCs or Equipment.
I disagree, PAO gives far more to warrior types than to casters.
PAO gives such a huge power to a low level character that all the spells a caster can cast pale in comparison. They are insignificant compared with the crazy stuff the PAO-boosted character can bring to a fight.
Most non-casters have better fighting skills and more skill points than casters, and those add to the raw physical power of the PAO-abuser. The caster frame is weaker than the non-caster.
Finally, PAO is a level 8 spell that casters can't use until they are level 15-16. Therefore casters do not have access to PAO except by the same systems non-casters use: going to NPCs. They have to pay exactly the same, and benefit somewhat less.
Once they are level 15, of course, they can PAO at will. But that is the latest 25-30% of the game, and that is when PAO is no longer so overpowered, at least when compared with other spells in the caster arsenal.
Archerpwr is probably right in that PAO is the most broken spell in the game, at least in Core before 9th level spells. Meyer might need to consider ban polymorph stuff from this thread if he wants to evaluate character capabilities in a realistic game. I doubt sane DMs will allow otherwordly+alter self anymore than PAO.
Heresy for the CO boards, though.
To respond to your points:
1) You realize that Argaud can post a commoner with the same stats and do the same thing.
2) I cannot say that PAO is not allowed to be bought but can be allowed to be cast (hypocrisy).
3) Most of the issues with PAO also exists with Alter Self cheese (which is very cheaply done via a wand CL5 or from a scroll). Denying PAO but allowing Alter Self cause the same issue.
4) There are several caster builds which rely upon Alter Self cheese. The only way to disallow this is to disqualify them. Is that fair?
5) Notice: By not posting most of the build, you realize that the build is not what is winning, it is the spell cast by an NPC (or a scroll or whatever). If the build is irrelevant, it shows nothing. That was the point of the PAO Elf. It was not to show caster power vs noncaster power, but the utter brokenness of the spell, and to show it was equally accessible to noncasters.
cough*This is the problem with giving noncasters easy access to any spell they want*cough
Achoo!Maybe if we were to only allow spellcasters to cast spells!Achoo
carnivore's post is basically slapping your argument of "casting spells does not make you a spellcaster" in the face via hyperbole.
If you make that the case, then it will become more of an issue of "caster vs non-caster" rather than "he who has the best equipment expenditure wins".
thats the Whole Point of Being a CASTER...ACCESS to SPELLS...SPELLS make up for Poor Martial Abilities and can Eclipse them at certain levels. SPELLS make up for Poor Skill quantites and lists... they can do things Skillmonkeys wish they could.
SPELLS are what give CASTERS thier POWER...
:D
cough*This is the problem with giving noncasters easy access to any spell they want*cough
Achoo!Maybe if we were to only allow spellcasters to cast spells!Achoo
carnivore's post is basically slapping your argument of "casting spells does not make you a spellcaster" in the face via hyperbole.
PhraedrusXY's Dragonborn Fire Elf Wizard has a scroll of Alter Self and Scintillating Scales, both of which were bought (total gp spent is 500, 2*5*25*2=500). The PAO Elf could have do almost the same thing as to what he did by buying the same scrolls that the wizard bought.
If you mean to tell me that the ability to purchase of scrolls is reserved for casters only, then you need to defend why that is.
If you mean to say that the Rogue (who gets UMD) is not allowed to use his skills (class abilities) to participate in this mini-adventure, then you need to defend why that is.
Oh, and for the record, at no point in time did I ever say "Casting spells does not make you a spellcaster", in fact, I say the opposite many times in this thread. My contention is that "Using items does not make you a spellcaster"
Pretty simple way to fix that; don't allow spells/powers which could not normally be cast by a pure caster of the appropriate level. SO in the case of the level 5s; nothing more than 3rd level spells, either from objects or NPCs.
If you make that the case, then it will become more of an issue of "caster vs non-caster" rather than "he who has the best equipment expenditure wins".
The problem with this is that it still allows for alter self/scintillating scales tactics for the win via item purchases by both sides.
PhraedrusXY's Dragonborn Fire Elf Wizard has a scroll of Alter Self and Scintillating Scales, both of which were bought (total gp spent is 500, 2*5*25*2=500). The PAO Elf could have do almost the same thing as to what he did by buying the same scrolls that the wizard bought.
If you mean to tell me that the ability to purchase of scrolls is reserved for casters only, then you need to defend why that is.
If you mean to say that the Rogue (who gets UMD) is not allowed to use his skills (class abilities) to participate in this mini-adventure, then you need to defend why that is.
Oh, and for the record, at no point in time did I ever say "Casting spells does not make you a spellcaster", in fact, I say the opposite many times in this thread. My contention is that "Using items does not make you a spellcaster"
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.
...
Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action
Polymorph(the Whole chain: Alter Self, Poly, PAO, Shapechange).... all boost casters far more.....why??
They don't boost casters more then noncasters. casters don't get any more bonus from using the spell then a non caster. A caster with PaO does not get any more natural AC or strength from a form then a non caster in the same form.
This is no different then claiming melee's are better with gear then casters, which is wholly untrue, melee's don't get any boosts out of gear that casters don't get.
Because they Naturally Gain Access by means of thier Spells without resorting to NPCs or Equipment.
this is only a small advantage (in these debates where anything allowed by RAW is allowed, which I don't generally like, but these aren't my rules) in that, if they have access to the spell, it does not cost them financially to attain the effects, and more importantly, it is far more easily, cheaply and quickly replaced in the case of a dispel. So yes, casters have an advantage as far as these spells go, but it does not come in the form of a buff.
On the flip side, It is my experience that melee's tend to get more use out of their gear then non-melee's. for example, virtually every round of every combat, melee's will be making use of all typical stat items, weapons, armour, often (but not always) mobility items and several other pieces of their gear. Meanwhile, non-melee's tend to use gear less frequently, often having extra wands and scrolls to expand their versatility (rather then stacking everything up, they spread it out), items like metamagic rods and pearls of power with limited usage. these mean melee's, although not getting more out of any piece of gear then non melee's, they do tend to get their moneys worth out of their gear more.
PS: note i was saying melee's/non-melee's, not casters in this case, as a gish is both a caster and a melee.
unless you change the rules to Disallow gaining access by means of Equipment(which i reccomend as have others)... this build is legal and should be considered
:D
Problem is, gear and spellcasting services are part of the game by RAW. If you want to start taking things out because they can be unbalancing, you have to be fair. otherworldly is unbalancing (and the users of it + alter self have even admitted to it). I think it's rather hypocritical to want to say PaO is broken and should be removed from the game as being accessible through gear, but allow it through spell access. If the polymorph line (or PaO specifically) is the problem, why remove it for only non-casters?
Showing the utter brokeness of the spell that one of the two noncasters who have gone through this dungeon have used. I see no reason why couldn't he use it, though the point of the build is not to actually go through the challenge, but to show that it is not difficult to use spells (a caster resource) to win this gauntlet.
Point is, again, neither magic nor buff spells are something exclusively casters can use. UMD exists to give everybody access to wands and scrolls, for instance. The table in the PHB about spellcasting services exist to give anyone access to stuff like PAO.
It would be different if it was a DMM-persistent personal buff, which only a cleric can manage and that is also very overpowered. But scrolls? Spellcasting services? Sorry, they are there for anyone.
The Goal of this Test:
Can people post, or link to, examples of overpowered casters ... I cannot find any that show overpoweredness at any/all levels, they usually don't get into their stride until 12+
Rules:
Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus.
the idea is to find out at What Point being able to Cast Spells Trumps Martial Ability...... the Rogue you mentioned did well because of a CASTER... it was not from his own abilities.... was there any UMD chack Needed in any ENCOUNTER in the cave to overcome it.... was there a Trap that could be Bypassed with a Turn Check or a UMD check
NO.....
you need to adjust the rules to give a Better sense of Power level between Casters and NON-casters
Casters can use Spells to overcome obstacles by:
1)Buffing themselves
2)Cast Spells to do Direct Damage
3)Buff Party Members
4)Battlefield Control
5)Intel/Transport/Health(healing)
6)Social Spells(Charm, Dominate, Etc...)
casters usually have a Wider Variety of abilities than JUST COMBAT.... but they can do fine in combat:
exa: who do you turn to when 250 various Undead are lumbering towards you accross a field???? do you say "hey, fighter... go beat the crap out of all those Undead" ....... or do you say "hey Wizard...nuke them"
:D
eta: And nice job pulling out the Explosive Runes cheese -- I completely forgot about that, and it's just not something noncasters can do (it would be prohibitively expensive).
Make it a LOW Magic test....... NO Magic items(or VOP) except what you Make yourself..... Alchemical and Mundane items only
that will show where the Power lies
:D
i have a great idea that will determine who is stronger.......
Make it a LOW Magic test....... NO Magic items(or VOP) except what you Make yourself..... Alchemical and Mundane items only
that will show where the Power lies
:D
Busted.
Kratch: Ummm, what? You mean that Shapechanging to a Pit Fiend does not give more benefit to casters? I'd be inclined to say that casters usually get more boons to their ability scores than Fighters considering that noncasters tend to concentrate more on them anyways. Like, Wiz has a strength score of 8 and Fighter's score is 24. Then both get Shapechange and their STR becomes 37. Yeah, Wizard got more benefit out of it.
And the fighter uses the 37 str for each of his 4 iterative attacks as well as to increase the value of his power attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action
:inlove: This is terrific!!! If this is true, then this allows early entry into so many PrCs.
Also, if this is true, all you showed me was that my stance has been incorrect, not that I did not hold to that same stance.
And the fighter uses the 37 str for each of his 4 iterative attacks as well as to increase the value of his power attack.
So does the Ordained Champion. Moreover, he tries to hit his opponents Touch AC because of persistent Wraithstrike.
So does the Ordained Champion. Moreover, he tries to hit his opponents Touch AC because of persistent Wraithstrike.
This goes back to the "Post a build to demonstrate your low level effectiveness."
This is terrific!!! If this is true, then this allows early entry into so many PrCs.
Also, if this is true, all you showed me was that my stance has been incorrect, not that I did not hold to that same stance.
So, are we banning spell trigger items in the next guantlet to keep the line between spellcaster and nonspellcaster in existance?
what makes thier Spells stronger is the Boost in Duration.... a Cleric can spend even fewer resources with Rods of Extend and DMM(Persistant)...they can make spells last 2 Days!!!!
Pretty sure they ruled against this - DMM Persist sets duration to 24 hours. Extend would then set the duration to twice the original. Metamagic modifies the original spell, not the modified spell. The same way a maximized, empowered fireball with CL 10 would deal 60+5d6 damage.
I really like the melee favourer's logic here.
1) Casters can cast spells that are over powered.
2) Melee can buy that spell casting service from them.
Therefore, those spells are of equal benefit to both.
I favour the idea of re-running the CR 5 dungeon without magical items at all.
So, are we banning spell trigger items in the next guantlet to keep the line between spellcaster and nonspellcaster in existance?
Instead of focusing on spell trigger and lines of demarcation, ask yourself ...
What is it we (casters/noncasters as a team) are trying to do? or
What is it that we do not want to see happen?
Personally, I have no problem with either a caster or a noncaster reading a spell/using a wand. Other than the UMD failure rate, I do not see the caster being better. Now, depending on what the spell is will determine the importance of the failure rate (cure light wounds post combat, a failure rate of 50% is ok with me, cure light wounds during combat, a failure rate of 50% is unacceptable), which better showcases the importance of casters.
Now, if the issue we want to stop, is the abusive builds (PAO, Alter Self, etc) then banning spell trigger items will not stop it from happening. It will then restrict it to only one camp (casters). This then, would be able to be held up as proof of superiority of casters over noncasters. ie. applying a house rule (denying the purchase of core items) which limits noncasters power to prove the superiority of casters. Since this conclusion would only be possible by the house-rule, it is not something I want to allow to happen in this thread. Additionally, having an NPC cast PAO on a player would still be possible.
Throw in the Close Quarters Combat feat to defend against grapples, and/or some Armor Spikes, and I think this could be potentially the most broken thing done yet in here, aside from the PaO abuse.
Or you could also use the PaO cheese, and instead take Scintillating Scales with your pseudo-domain, for uber-brokenness. :D
Once Magic Jar becomes available, it is even more powerful than Polymorph, when used intelligently, IMO. You get abilities like Regeneration and Immunities with that. If you think Polymorphing into a Wartroll is bad, look at what happens when you use Magic Jar to possess one. It is certainly more difficult to use safely, though. If you allow things from the BoVD, it can also be made permanent via Imprison Possessor.
It is also possible to make a wartroll or other "host" your permanent Thrall, so you don't have to worry about it eventually making its saving throw and becoming immune to your Magic Jar. The earliest way to do this is probably with the Mother Cyst based spell Necrotic Tumor (I think that's the name) from Libris Mortis. This could be used in games where BoVD material is not allowed.
At the level we're looking at right now, it is difficult, but not impossible, to make a caster that is totally broken/overpowered. I think in just a few levels (~7-9), it gets signifigantly easier. If we get to that point, I'll certainly be interested in posting characters that I think are clearly broken, and whose tricks can't be easily replicated by non-casters via UMD. I think the character I made for Tsuyoshikentsu's online game a while back would qualify. It was level 11, but some of the broken things it did could have been pulled off earlier.
Pretty sure they ruled against this - DMM Persist sets duration to 24 hours. Extend would then set the duration to twice the original. Metamagic modifies the original spell, not the modified spell. The same way a maximized, empowered fireball with CL 10 would deal 60+5d6 damage.
Sorry, but this is wrong. They "ruled" that the way Maximize and Empower interact is the exception rather than the general case. In all other cases, the feats can be applied in any order the caster wants, i.e. whichever way is most beneficial. Extended Persistant spells last 2 days.
Instead of focusing on spell trigger and lines of demarcation, ask yourself ...
What is it we (casters/noncasters as a team) are trying to do? or
What is it that we do not want to see happen?
Personally, I have no problem with either a caster or a noncaster reading a spell/using a wand. Other than the UMD failure rate, I do not see the caster being better. Now, depending on what the spell is will determine the importance of the failure rate (cure light wounds post combat, a failure rate of 50% is ok with me, cure light wounds during combat, a failure rate of 50% is unacceptable), which better showcases the importance of casters.
Now, if the issue we want to stop, is the abusive builds (PAO, Alter Self, etc) then banning spell trigger items will not stop it from happening. It will then restrict it to only one camp (casters). This then, would be able to be held up as proof of superiority of casters over noncasters. ie. applying a house rule (denying the purchase of core items) which limits noncasters power to prove the superiority of casters. Since this conclusion would only be possible by the house-rule, it is not something I want to allow to happen in this thread. Additionally, having an NPC cast PAO on a player would still be possible.
Spells are overpowered. We accept this fact because everycharacter is using them to prove their argument is better. Characters with levels in:
Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Warmage, Wu-Jen, Healer, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, or any other class that gets ninth level spells
get these overpowered abilities without spending as much gp to get them.
If everyone is using gp to imitate your class-given abilities (paying other memebers of your class), would that be proof of your class being overpowered?
There are exceptions (wands of CLW, detect magic) of spells being used as tools rather than crutches, but that hasn't come into play here.
Basically, your whole argument is absolutely silly to anyone with any knowledge of basic logic.
I favour the idea of re-running the CR 5 dungeon without magical items at all.
You are not playing D&D anymore.
Spells are overpowered. We accept this fact because everycharacter is using them to prove their argument is better. Characters with levels in:
Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Warmage, Wu-Jen, Healer, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, or any other class that gets ninth level spells
get these overpowered abilities without spending as much gp to get them.
If everyone is using gp to imitate your class-given abilities (paying other memebers of your class), would that be proof of your class being overpowered?
There are exceptions (wands of CLW, detect magic) of spells being used as tools rather than crutches, but that hasn't come into play here.
Basically, your whole argument is absolutely silly to anyone with any knowledge of basic logic.
The issues I have with this statement is as follows:
1) Before level 17, which of those classes gets 9th level spells? For any campaign that ends before then, how do they get the 9th level spells?
2) If the reason why casters are overpowered, is that they save a small fraction of a character's wealth by casting them instead of paying for the spells, what does this really say?
This thread has been derailed a long long time ago. I am not sure that it can get back on track.
Currently, we cannot decide on the following:
1) If inexpensive spells are overpowered, does this make a caster overpowered
2) What is a caster
3) What is overpowered.
The issues I have with this statement is as follows:
1) Before level 17, which of those classes gets 9th level spells? For any campaign that ends before then, how do they get the 9th level spells?
2) If the reason why casters are overpowered, is that they save a small fraction of a character's wealth by casting them instead of paying for the spells, what does this really say?
Level 12 warlocks technically can, 12 with the right builds. An ur priest can. I think knight of the chalice, or some other wierd domain caster can.
Also, considering how often these magical resources are used in most builds cases, I would not say that it is a small fraction of wealth by the end of it.
Level 12 warlocks technically can, 12 with the right builds. An ur priest can. I think knight of the chalice, or some other wierd domain caster can.
Also, considering how often these magical resources are used in most builds cases, I would not say that it is a small fraction of wealth by the end of it.
Ur-Priest was not one of the casters he listed.
re: magical resources. Look to my build. I used less than 10% of my resources (1 potion of fly and a couple potions). If the manticore started on the ground, i would have used 100gp out of 9000gp. nothing. The PAO elf used 1200 gp, which is about as much as one fire elemental ruby -- wouldn't you say?
The issues I have with this statement is as follows:
1) Before level 17, which of those classes gets 9th level spells? For any campaign that ends before then, how do they get the 9th level spells?
2) If the reason why casters are overpowered, is that they save a small fraction of a character's wealth by casting them instead of paying for the spells, what does this really say?
1)
I am simply using the 9th level spells classes because they get the quickest progression. Bards get the same effect at 19 with sublime chord, ur-priests get 9th at 14, and cheesetastic clerics get a ninth level spell at level 6. The progression matters, not ninth level spells. PAO is only level 8 for christ's sake.
2)
Let's calculate the wealth it takes to replicate a level 8 focused transmuter with 24 int:
0: 4
1: 4-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 8
2: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
3: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
4: 2-1 any, 3 transmutation, 1 bonus = 5
Assuming scroll prices per spell, the wizard is costing
4*(25*1/2*8)+8*(25*1*8)+7*(25*2*8)+7*(25*3*8)+5*(25*4*8)=
a grand total of 13,000 gp per day in services to the party. Level 8 characters only have 27000 gp. Replicating a wizard costs a grand total of half your wealth per day.
Small fraction my ass.
Not to mention my illusionist, who only needed to spend about 1 GP in expendables, in a blanket and a torch, and my abjurer, who strictly speaking, did not need to spend anything money on expendable resources.
Purified spells can't harm good aligned individuals.
Purified Explosive runes.
Heh...
Wenn ist das Nunstruck git und Slotermeyer? Ja!...
Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
1)
I am simply using the 9th level spells classes because they get the quickest progression. Bards get the same effect at 19 with sublime chord, ur-priests get 9th at 14, and cheesetastic clerics get a ninth level spell at level 6. The progression matters, not ninth level spells. PAO is only level 8 for christ's sake.
Using classes you did not list to answer my question is not valid.
2)
Let's calculate the wealth it takes to replicate a level 8 focused transmuter with 24 int:
0: 4
1: 4-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 8
2: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
3: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
4: 2-1 any, 3 transmutation, 1 bonus = 5
Assuming scroll prices per spell, the wizard is costing
4*(25*1/2*8)+8*(25*1*8)+7*(25*2*8)+7*(25*3*8)+5*(25*4*8)=
a grand total of 13,000 gp per day in services to the party. Level 8 characters only have 27000 gp. Replicating a wizard costs a grand total of half your wealth per day.
Small fraction my ass.
This is not an accurate statement as not all spells are needed/desired each day and some spells are used to replicate noncaster abilities.
This is not an accurate statement as not all spells are needed/desired each day and some spells are used to replicate noncaster abilities.
Versatility is bad?
I think your fiery bursts are cool and all, and by themselves might be enough to compete with the encounters and could even demonstrate an overpowered caster. As it is, I think you're just showcasing PAO.
Meh. It's as much of a win as buying Candles of Invocation. Proves a lot more about the market price of magic than anything to do with a build. With PAO, you've got 15 HD in a CR 5-6 gauntlet. Meyer's build + otherworldly would be owning as a horned devil as well.
I think your fiery bursts are cool and all, and by themselves might be enough to compete with the encounters and could even demonstrate an overpowered caster. As it is, I think you're just showcasing PAO.
Bingo!
Being able to afford something doesn't make the build competitive.
...and cheesetastic clerics get a ninth level spell at level 6.
How does one accomplish this? If this is also possible, I'm almost glad that 4th edition is right around the corner.
Purified Explosive runes.
Heh...
How does one accomplish this? If this is also possible, I'm almost glad that 4th edition is right around the corner.
Sanctum spell+DMM (Heighten) if I recall correctly.
Edit: Courtesy of DisposableHero
How does one accomplish this? If this is also possible, I'm almost glad that 4th edition is right around the corner.
Can't seem to find the thread. Ingredients:
Illumian hieghten ability
Earth spell
Extra spell
Edit: Ninja'd
(Assumptions made: being invisible allows me to effectively attack first, Manticore closes and tries to attack (though if it fled, it could be killed)
By the way ...
This thread has been derailed a long long time ago. I am not sure that it can get back on track.
Currently, we cannot decide on the following:
1) If inexpensive spells are overpowered, does this make a caster overpowered
Yes, because they get those spells for free and do not have to be at the mercy of the market to get them. Quantity A(spells) is overpowered. Quantity A is a subset of quantity B(casters). So by definition quantity B is also overpowered because it contains quantity B
2) What is a caster
A PC/NPC/Monster that can cast spells via either innate racial ability, or via a class with a casting progression.
3) What is overpowered.
There are 2 definitions of overpowered or "broken"
1- mechanical: Having no limits, caps, or stops in the ability allowing it to be abused or containing loopholes that can be similarly abused.
2- DM and PC perception: Having a power that eclipses other PC's and trivialize content.
You'd have to use scrolls of Animate Dead, but since people are breaking out the "a wizard cast PaO on me", that shouldn't be a problem. :P
There are a couple of ways to make undead via metamagic feats.I think a Cloistered Cleric/X/Master of Shrouds would be able to rebuke a "grandaddy" Shadow and just have an army of spawn.
Feats could be spent on undead creation, to avoid the need to buy anything.
BTW at what level would that one teleportation Reserve feat become available/ usefull? It seems like a none cheesy way out of the grapplers.
I hate counting on buying things. In game any one who can cast PAO on you could just turn you into a guppy and take your money.Hell he could just turn you into money and spend your ass. I know this doesnt apply here but thats why I find this challenge lacking.
The most powerful force in this game is magic. The casters rule because they have their own damn source of the stuff.
When I play a caster, I use cheap wands just to avoid using my own more valuable higher level/ DC spell slots.
Eliminate the scarcity, and every one will turn to to magic, as is illustrated in this thread.
In the end, if casters could buy a warriors class features/feats/ BAB for as cheap as a non-caster can buy spells, I think the casters would be over powered, since they can easily make more money.
As things stand, the non-casters rule in this situation ,where they can freely buy a casters abilities, for cheaper than the caster can buy theirs.
Sanctum spell+DMM (Heighten) if I recall correctly.
Edit: Courtesy of DisposableHero
Even though this isn't a complete build, doesn't this show that casters can be overpowered? There are too many poorly worded feats/spells/abilities that are designed to benefit casters, more so than non-casters.
Maybe someone should bring one of these theoretical builds through.
There are a couple of ways to make undead via metamagic feats.I think a Cloistered Cleric/X/Master of Shrouds would be able to rebuke a "grandaddy" Shadow and just have an army of spawn.
Feats could be spent on undead creation, to avoid the need to buy anything.
Hmm... good point. You could make zombies for free via DMM: Fell Animate, also (or just Fell Animate applied to a cantrip that is used to "finish something off"). I think we should make an undead using build for this "challenge"... but it is too much work. I'm both too busy and too lazy to actually do it. I'm happy to offer suggetions, though. :D
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8 - 2 = 6
WIS: 15+1+2 = 18
CHA: 10 (+4) = 14
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 24 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 cha+3 Symbol)
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
Masterwork Fullplate (1650 gp)
Masterwork Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (160 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000 gp)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp)
2 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (1000 gp)
Mundane Light Crossbow and 50 bolts (55 gp)
A spare silver holy symbol (25 gp)
8640 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2+1 =21, touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 7/3/8
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Blade of Blood: Swift action for extra damage PHB 2.
Balor Nimbus is from spell compendium, and is an anti-grapple spell.
Ice Axe is from Spell Compendium - 2d12 ice damage + ½ CL, max 10, as touch attacks (Gain proficiency with axe as well).
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Visage of the Deity, Lesser (+4 cha)
Persist Balor Nimbus
Day 2:
Drink the Terran Brandy
Persist Ice Axe - CL 7, damage 2d12+3
Persist Divine Retaliation - CL 5+2 (Terran Brandy) + 3 (Wisdom) = +10, 1d8+4
Cast Conviction (+3 to all saves for 70 minutes)
Cast Sign (+4 init on next check in 70 minutes)
Cast Lessor Restoration to remove Con damage.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity (SpC) Owl’s Wisdom
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance,
Turn attempts remaining: 10
HP 41:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 10/6/11
BAB: 3
Attack: +4, 2d12+3 (TOUCH, COLD), Divine Retaliation: +10, 1d8+4
DR 10/Evil
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 10+6.5*4 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
Elite Array:
STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8 - 2 = 6
WIS: 15+1+2 = 18
CHA: 10 (+4) = 14
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 24 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 cha+3 Symbol)
Level 3 Spells
Gear (9000 gp)
Masterwork Fullplate (1650 gp)
Masterwork Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (160 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000 gp)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 gp)
2 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (1000 gp)
Mundane Light Crossbow and 50 bolts (55 gp)
A spare silver holy symbol (25 gp)
8640 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2+1 =21, touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 7/3/8
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
PHB 2 spells
Channeled Divine Shield: Range, Person. Duration: 1/round level. Cast Time = Two rounds. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah
Divine Retaliation: Range: 0ft. Duration: 1 round. Cast time = swift action. Eligible for persisting? Hell yeah.
Blade of Blood: Swift action for extra damage PHB 2.
Balor Nimbus is from spell compendium, and is an anti-grapple spell.
Ice Axe is from Spell Compendium - 2d12 ice damage + ½ CL, max 10, as touch attacks (Gain proficiency with axe as well).
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Persist Channeled Divine Shield, take two rounds.
Persist Visage of the Deity, Lesser (+4 cha)
Persist Balor Nimbus
Day 2:
Drink the Terran Brandy
Persist Ice Axe - CL 7, damage 2d12+3
Persist Divine Retaliation - CL 5+2 (Terran Brandy) + 3 (Wisdom) = +10, 1d8+4
Cast Conviction (+3 to all saves for 70 minutes)
Cast Sign (+4 init on next check in 70 minutes)
Cast Lessor Restoration to remove Con damage.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Blade of Blood *2
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity (SpC) Owl’s Wisdom
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance,
Turn attempts remaining: 10
HP 41:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 10/6/11
BAB: 3
Attack: +4, 2d12+3 (TOUCH, COLD), Divine Retaliation: +10, 1d8+4
DR 10/Evil
2)
Let's calculate the wealth it takes to replicate a level 8 focused transmuter with 24 int:
0: 4
1: 4-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 8
2: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
3: 3-1 any, 3 transmutation, 2 bonus = 7
4: 2-1 any, 3 transmutation, 1 bonus = 5
Assuming scroll prices per spell, the wizard is costing
4*(25*1/2*8)+8*(25*1*8)+7*(25*2*8)+7*(25*3*8)+5*(25*4*8)=
a grand total of 13,000 gp per day in services to the party. Level 8 characters only have 27000 gp. Replicating a wizard costs a grand total of half your wealth per day.
your example of what you claim is being done is not what is actually being done. It has not been the full casting ability that is being replicated, only the most potent spell combo (in this case, alter self or PaO) to which many of these caster builds have relied on to succeed, not the full ability to cast. If you can point to a single build, or quote a single person, who has claimed using items to duplicate a casters full casting progression is reasonable or easily achievable then show us (I believe many of us have actually acknowledged casters can do things with spells noncasters can't, you just don't seem to be willing to use those things, but would rather restrict a simple aspect of the game to support your cause), otherwise, stop telling us we're wrong for saying things we didn't say.
But you are making an excellent case for why the claims that having several scrolls of every spell you'd need as backup is rather unrealistic.
Small fraction my ass.
Hey, I did say in fact that evokers are weak, didn't I? :P At later levels though, I won't need those crutches, while you still will. And on the Ur Priest thing, I was merely stating how to get them, pre level 17 without paying money.
Not to mention my illusionist, who only needed to spend about 1 GP in expendables, in a blanket and a torch, and my abjurer, who strictly speaking, did not need to spend anything money on expendable resources.
and magic items can't easily duplicate those things. This is what we're talking about, show how a casters ability to cast the spells that aren't easily or practically acquired/duplicated through items demonstrates overpoweredness. I believe you've been given kudos for this very reason. your one of the few who's actually willing/trying to do this, most others just cry foul that their tactic can be duplicated and try making unrealistic restrictions.
I updated my CR6 (crypt of creepiness) battle, I now beat the mummy but lose to the CR7 vampire.
A DC 18 save of die used twice against a 5th level character was what did me in.
However, having the crypt full of undead, and two of them having save-or-die will (16 and 18) save abilities vs noncasters (guaranteed to have weak will saves) was rough.
Yes, it did point out one of the few weakness in your build. I can only think of two other possibilities. Rust monsters and fire resistance/immunity.
As you pointed out in the other thread there are ways to compensate but, as stated against casters, you cannot do it all at once.
i have a great idea that will determine who is stronger.......
Make it a LOW Magic test....... NO Magic items(or VOP) except what you Make yourself..... Alchemical and Mundane items only
that will show where the Power lies
:D
MMMmmm... magical items though widely available are extensions of the caster's powers and a few pseudo-casters (warlock and artificer for example). The effect that caster have on the game is profound, but parties within a low magic campaign should find that the casters must spend more time/resources buffing.
By the way ...
This thread has been derailed a long long time ago. I am not sure that it can get back on track.
Currently, we cannot decide on the following:
1) If inexpensive spells are overpowered, does this make a caster overpowered
Honestly it can. It can also make other classes overpowered with Use Magic Device.
2) What is a caster
Definitional it is someone that casts spells. Gishes by this definition are casters as would be a fighter 19/wizard 1.
A more functional definition would be a character that relays caster spell for their effectiveness. As you post a rules for prestige classes that uses a 3/5 ratio it wouldn't be unreasonable to use 3/5 spell casting levels to define a caster and a 3/5 non-spellcasting to define a non-caster.
On the gish question: I think gishes should be allowed.
By the logic that you used nitroglycerin wouldn't be explosive as it needs an outside source for the explosion.
Here is a generic example. Sorcerer 5/Monk 1 + Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventure page 105) --> Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane 34) + Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior page 96) could make an excellent gish. The total loss of 3 caster levels over 20.
3) What is overpowered.
Well, you build is overpowered, but it really is subjective. As such it is hard to nail down.
Baseline any character that can regularly overcome 4 encounters alone at the CR equal to it's level is overpowered.
Regularly overcoming a wide variety of encounters with the CR equal to your level using less that 1/4th of you daily resources should be considered overpowered as well.
1)Please run the attempt by Tshern/carnivore to see how we did ..... a quick note, we dont rely on magic items .... we do gain some benifit from Alchemical items(this is the crutch for low levels we do rely on).... the main strength of our Build is versatility based on Large variety of spells to select from(appropriate spells for most occasions).... and large quantity of spells to use, also the feat selection gives us a Powerful build in any campaign(Low/No Magic, High Magic(monty Haul), or anything in between).... but level 5 is right before we get to show real power, the build is far stronger @ level 6..... and @ level 8 will kick the Butt of most Non-casters as well as CR 8 encounters(with little or No Buffing)
2)Please update 1st post with a Link to PAO Man so that he is included
:D
2 quick requests Meyer_William
1)Please run the attempt by Tshern/carnivore to see how we did ..... a quick note, we dont rely on magic items .... we do gain some benifit from Alchemical items(this is the crutch for low levels we do rely on).... the main strength of our Build is versatility based on Large variety of spells to select from(appropriate spells for most occasions).... and large quantity of spells to use, also the feat selection gives us a Powerful build in any campaign(Low/No Magic, High Magic(monty Haul), or anything in between).... but level 5 is right before we get to show real power, the build is far stronger @ level 6..... and @ level 8 will kick the Butt of most Non-casters as well as CR 8 encounters(with little or No Buffing)
You might want to increase the amount of Owl's Wisdom potions, as you can only pull off the alter self once (I.e. a more normal character).
The wraith gets a save vs your hide from undead, which it will make (dc 11 vs +6) plus once you attack it with magic missile, your spell goes away. Your Touch AC is horrible so it should be able to connect once or twice.
2)Please update 1st post with a Link to PAO Man so that he is included
I would prefer not to, as a commoner can do the same exact thing. The spells PAO Man can cast do not affect the success of this build. If at least one other person thinks that it is a legitimate caster build, then I will. However, remember that the exact same character can be built as a commoner.
Yes, it did point out one of the few weakness in your build. I can only think of two other possibilities. Rust monsters and fire resistance/immunity.
I fought a grey ooze and won, this is very similar to the rust monster issue.
The extra damage I do to things that are not immune/resistant to fire is a bonus, but not a key component of the build.
As you pointed out in the other thread there are ways to compensate but, as stated against casters, you cannot do it all at once.
True, and if it takes an adventure highly stacked against my build to prove that my CR5 cannot solo 4 CR 6 and 1 CR7 in the same day, then ... i guess you proved that. Note: a simple potion of protection from evil would have given me the win, i can afford it, but to buy it would be metagaming so I took the loss instead.
Honestly it can. It can also make other classes overpowered with Use Magic Device.
UMD is not required when the spell is achieved by paying an NPC to cast it. This was the point of the Rogue PAO build that was posted.
Definitional it is someone that casts spells. Gishes by this definition are casters as would be a fighter 19/wizard 1.
A more functional definition would be a character that relays caster spell for their effectiveness. As you post a rules for prestige classes that uses a 3/5 ratio it wouldn't be unreasonable to use 3/5 spell casting levels to define a caster and a 3/5 non-spellcasting to define a non-caster.
On the gish question: I think gishes should be allowed.
My feelings on this should be widely known on this subject. If you add noncaster base classes to a caster build, you cannot say it proves that casters are more powerful than noncaster. If they were, then there is no need to add noncaster levels to your build. If they are not, then they are not part of this discussion.
Gishes that do not rely upon noncaster base classes are allowed and we have seen some examples of some casters who have engaged in gish-like activities. It was expressed that gish is a state of mind so there are already gish in the running.
Well, you build is overpowered, but it really is subjective. As such it is hard to nail down.
Baseline any character that can regularly overcome 4 encounters alone at the CR equal to it's level is overpowered.
Regularly overcoming a wide variety of encounters with the CR equal to your level using less that 1/4th of you daily resources should be considered overpowered as well.
What part of my build is overpowered? Is it the base classes? Is it the magic item selection? Is it the feat selection? Is it the race? Is it the skills? Is it ToB?
Edit: I think you should add the Explosive runes Abjurer to that list, too.
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
I notice that there were equipment changes in this one.
How are you controlling the undead? Is your Cleric level really 8 for turn checks? I don't know what some of the items you have do (I don't have BoVD).
Do either of the undead have turn resistance? It was not noted.
How do you know which of the two undead is more beneficial to you? By the way they are dressed, why isn't the rapier wielding guy a rogue?
Now, I could see a big argument - is a weapon with 10 feet reach still melee? I am going to say yes, it is a melee attack.
Nope. No argument from me here, however I will comment that since the divine retaliation does not have reach, it cannot reach the guy 10' away. Now, if you were large, it would work.
Versus the wights, why don't you start with a turn check? I notice you did do this in the previous fight, so why not for this fight? Or is it because you like the skeleton you already have and are fairly certain that these guys would be over the limit? (in which case they would be in awe of you). Where is the knowledge religion checks to learn stuff?
Why isn't your divine retaliation activating for these melee touch attacks?
A mummy does not do negative levels, it does mummy rot, which is basically save or die. However, without a knowledge religion check or asking someone, your character does not know this.
How do you know it is a vampire? What part of the clue gave that away vs it being a mummy?
Our character only needs to pull Alter self once. That's why he is getting to the dungeon in the first place. It was widely accept that the Rogue can use 1200gp on scroll of PAO since he gets so much in return. Why can't Alix spend 300gp on a potion?
Edit: I think you should add the Explosive runes Abjurer to that list, too.
Naw, it is not the 300 gp aspect of things. It is the fact that it looks like the alter self is a key component of your build, yet you can only do it once. Which means that this does not appear to be a normal character. I am not saying it is not legit (it is), but that as a player, you would have more than 1 potion of it.
Versatility is bad?
No. If the spell is not needed, then no gold was spent on the spell.
Naw, it is not the 300 gp aspect of things. It is the fact that it looks like the alter self is a key component of your build, yet you can only do it once. Which means that this does not appear to be a normal character. I am not saying it is not legit (it is), but that as a player, you would have more than 1 potion of it.
How many scrolls of PAO would the Rogue have?
How many scrolls of PAO would the Rogue have?
Since the change is permanent, the one purchase should last quite some time.
Edit: I added the explosive runes guy to page one. It was a terrific example of something a noncaster cannot do.
Just responding to the "No spells in spellbooks" comment on page one. I tend to find it is best to go with free spells up until you can afford a Boccobs blessed book to use. Before then, spells are a little too pricey to just buy en masse.
Ummm ... that is completely unbalancing, no offense.
Just responding to the "No spells in spellbooks" comment on page one. I tend to find it is best to go with free spells up until you can afford a Boccobs blessed book to use. Before then, spells are a little too pricey to just buy en masse.
I agree with zarzak. This is broken.
Besides, getting your Spellcraft skill to 23+ isn't even HARD. And once you get to that point, you can prepare spells out of borrowed books without fail. Heck, even at level 2, without even TRYING to optimize, you can have a skill of +13 (+4 Int, +5 Skill, +2 Know: Arcana synergy, +2 Masterwork Tool). That puts you at succeeding 90% of the time on borrowed 1st level spells.
I also tend to take enemy spell books, and use the alternate rules on spellbooks from complete arcane, which let's me attune to his spell book, and lets me just use it at will, since that's less book keeping than reading it and making checks for every spell.
Ummm ... that is completely unbalancing, no offense.
He doesn't mean that he can scribe scrolls into his spellbook without paying for them. He means that he only casts the spells that every single Wizard in the world gets for free when he levels up. If you think that's broken, then every single Wizard in the world is broken. End of thread.
I notice that there were equipment changes in this one.
Yeah, I discovered things that were more optimized that I didn't know about before. That is one thing this thread is letting me in on.
There were also spell changes. I found better spells. It is more optimized to use this set up, and this is a game about expert optimization.
How are you controlling the undead? Is your Cleric level really 8 for turn checks? I don't know what some of the items you have do (I don't have BoVD).
1d20+2(5ranks knowledge religion)+2 (Charisma from VotDLEsser) = 1d20+4
To hit the vampire with a turning, I need to get to 9 hit die (even though it only has 5) A roll of 22 or higher will give cleric level + 4 - 5+4=9. So I needed to roll an 18, 19, or 20. However, since it only has 5 real hit die, I can control it.
Do either of the undead have turn resistance? It was not noted.
The only undead with turn resistance that I saw was the vampire. It was noted in that instance, so those without turn resistance noted probably didn't have it.
How do you know which of the two undead is more beneficial to you? By the way they are dressed, why isn't the rapier wielding guy a rogue?
One had less hit die. Besides, the meleer was approaching me, and the cleric is the meleer - no need to double roles. It would always make sense to take the one that hangs behind.
Nope. No argument from me here, however I will comment that since the divine retaliation does not have reach, it cannot reach the guy 10' away. Now, if you were large, it would work.
Alright, would it change the course of the battle?
Versus the wights, why don't you start with a turn check? I notice you did do this in the previous fight, so why not for this fight? Or is it because you like the skeleton you already have and are fairly certain that these guys would be over the limit? (in which case they would be in awe of you). Where is the knowledge religion checks to learn stuff?
I'm already controlling a mage, and quite satisfied with that. The point of rebuke undead in this clerics mind is to control something powerful, and I hold caster levels high above anything. Do I really need a knowledge check to figure out that the big, slobbering, wights are not arcane casters?
Why isn't your divine retaliation activating for these melee touch attacks?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm
Wights have a slam, it isn't a melee touch attack. The slams damage was negated by my DR 10/evil, so I just took the energy drain.
A mummy does not do negative levels, it does mummy rot, which is basically save or die. However, without a knowledge religion check or asking someone, your character does not know this.
Oh, awesome! That means I get fortitude saves. I can do this in just 3 days, then.
He waits alone.
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
Alone - vampires traditionally hunt alone.
Guarded by rags - the mummy was guarding him in the previous room.
Dressed in stone - obviously the stone coffin.
Patent as death - Patent law is evil. So are vampires.
The treasure. Not important.
Okay, maybe I didn't know it was a vampire. I still knew it was the BBEG, and it was time to buff up before I opened the coffin.
Although you did draw my attention to the fact I need another Terran Brandy.
I agree with zarzak. This is broken.
Besides, getting your Spellcraft skill to 23+ isn't even HARD. And once you get to that point, you can prepare spells out of borrowed books without fail. Heck, even at level 2, without even TRYING to optimize, you can have a skill of +13 (+4 Int, +5 Skill, +2 Know: Arcana synergy, +2 Masterwork Tool). That puts you at succeeding 90% of the time on borrowed 1st level spells.
What is broken from what was said?
Btw ... if you are using borrowed spellbooks from defeated enemies -- that is gold piece treasure that needs to be accounted for. If it is not accounted for, then the wizard character is getting a lot more treasure than they should be.
I notice that there were equipment changes in this one.
Yeah, I discovered things that were more optimized that I didn't know about before. That is one thing this thread is letting me in on.
There were also spell changes. I found better spells. It is more optimized to use this set up, and this is a game about expert optimization.
I have no contention about spells with you. You are a cleric and can memorize new ones daily. I am glad to hear that this thread is benefitting you in some fashion.
How are you controlling the undead? Is your Cleric level really 8 for turn checks? I don't know what some of the items you have do (I don't have BoVD).
1d20+2(5ranks knowledge religion)+2 (Charisma from VotDLEsser) = 1d20+4
To hit the vampire with a turning, I need to get to 9 hit die (even though it only has 5) A roll of 22 or higher will give cleric level + 4 - 5+4=9. So I needed to roll an 18, 19, or 20. However, since it only has 5 real hit die, I can control it.
An evil cleric can rebuke undead as a turn check. If the cleric has twice as many levels as the undead has HD then it can control it instead.
How are you controlling the 4 HD spellcaster?
How do you know which of the two undead is more beneficial to you? By the way they are dressed, why isn't the rapier wielding guy a rogue?
One had less hit die. Besides, the meleer was approaching me, and the cleric is the meleer - no need to double roles. It would always make sense to take the one that hangs behind.
Let me restate things.
You see a skeleton with a rapier, and a skeleton with a spiked chain. You are choosing the skeleton with the rapier because it has 1 extra HD? Ok, that might make sense. The one that hangs back? You beat its initiative, it did not choose to hang back, it was flatfooted.
(This is me asking if you used out-of-character knowledge. If you answer that you didn't, then I am ok with this answer).
I'm already controlling a mage, and quite satisfied with that. The point of rebuke undead in this clerics mind is to control something powerful, and I hold caster levels high above anything. Do I really need a knowledge check to figure out that the big, slobbering, wights are not arcane casters?
I am not sure you are able to control the spellcaster. But the question is more along the lines of why don't you attempt to rebuke these guys like you did the first batch? Rebuking is not the same as controlling and would not impact your control of the spellcaster. All this would do is waste an action for you.
He waits alone.
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
Alone - vampires traditionally hunt alone.
Guarded by rags - the mummy was guarding him in the previous room.
Dressed in stone - obviously the stone coffin.
Patent as death - Patent law is evil. So are vampires.
The treasure. Not important.
Okay, maybe I didn't know it was a vampire. I still knew it was the BBEG, and it was time to buff up before I opened the coffin.
Vampires have an organization of Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampire spawn) -- not necessarily alone
Patient as death -- almost all intelligent undead are patient as death.
Also ...
The Vampire has ability focus, so its DC is higher than what you listed ... by +2 (10%), which means you fail versus either the second or third dominate
your example of what you claim is being done is not what is actually being done. It has not been the full casting ability that is being replicated, only the most potent spell combo (in this case, alter self or PaO) to which many of these caster builds have relied on to succeed, not the full ability to cast. If you can point to a single build, or quote a single person, who has claimed using items to duplicate a casters full casting progression is reasonable or easily achievable then show us (I believe many of us have actually acknowledged casters can do things with spells noncasters can't, you just don't seem to be willing to use those things, but would rather restrict a simple aspect of the game to support your cause), otherwise, stop telling us we're wrong for saying things we didn't say.
But you are making an excellent case for why the claims that having several scrolls of every spell you'd need as backup is rather unrealistic.
No, the noncasters are just using the most broken for their level spells to imitate spellcasting ability within what WBL allows. Don't discount the level 1 and two spells. Expeditious Retreat, feather fall, enlarge person, darkvision, knock, and rope trick are extremely useful spells. You can't even afford a wand of a level 4 spell at level 7. A wand of a level four spell costs 21k. That's 2k more than level 7 wealth. Alter self may be nice, but polymorph is even better.
What is broken from what was said?
Btw ... if you are using borrowed spellbooks from defeated enemies -- that is gold piece treasure that needs to be accounted for. If it is not accounted for, then the wizard character is getting a lot more treasure than they should be.
Misunderstood what he said. And my response wasn't meant as a direct contribution to the argument (I don't want to get caught up in another "are casters broken" thread).
Misunderstood what he said. And my response wasn't meant as a direct contribution to the argument (I don't want to get caught up in another "are casters broken" thread).
Too late. This stopped having any real discussion three pages in. Now it's just a statitician's game.
No, the noncasters are just using the most broken for their level spells to imitate spellcasting ability within what WBL allows. Don't discount the level 1 and two spells. Expeditious Retreat, feather fall, enlarge person, darkvision, knock, and rope trick are extremely useful spells. You can't even afford a wand of a level 4 spell at level 7. A wand of a level four spell costs 21k. That's 2k more than level 7 wealth. Alter self may be nice, but polymorph is even better.
And a wand of level 4 spells with 10 charges costs 4250 gold, well within the reach of a level 7 character.
And a wand of level 4 spells with 10 charges costs 4250 gold, well within the reach of a level 7 character.
Assuming CR 7 encounters, that's cutting your profit by roughly a seventh per encounter you use it in. Not negligible. That will throw off WBL very quickly.
Naw, it is not the 300 gp aspect of things. It is the fact that it looks like the alter self is a key component of your build, yet you can only do it once. Which means that this does not appear to be a normal character. I am not saying it is not legit (it is), but that as a player, you would have more than 1 potion of it.
whoa... hold on there .... if thats what you want ..... lets do this:
LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD
i will adjust the Equipment for my build to match (mostly) Argauds Rogue:
will post it later ..... and see the effect of Similar Equipment on the outcome.... see if it is easier and Faster with a caster
:D
Assuming CR 7 encounters, that's cutting your profit by roughly a seventh per encounter you use it in. Not negligible. That will throw off WBL very quickly.
Assuming a character is dealing with CR 7 encounters alone he will rise two full levels by the time the wand is exhausted, assuming he uses the wand in each encounter. Check how much cash he has gained, check the WBL chart and calculate how much cash was he supposed to spend in consumable.
whoa... hold on there .... if thats what you want ..... lets do this:
LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD
i will adjust the Equipment for my build to match (mostly) Argauds Rogue:
will post it later ..... and see the effect of Similar Equipment on the outcome.... see if it is easier and Faster with a caster
:D
What I am saying is that the character has a feat (arcane disciple) that he needs a potion of owl's wisdom to use. I am asking if having only one is appropriate based on how the character looks.
It is a very reasonable request. It is on par with me asking if a dread necromancer would like to have unholy water and silver to cast his desecration spell.
If you do level the playing field, please make sure to PAO into the same form, as choosing a different form will prove nothing.
And a wand of level 4 spells with 10 charges costs 4250 gold, well within the reach of a level 7 character.
Or, you know, have the party wizard cast it on you for free ... which saves you, what ... 22.37% of your total wealth? That is almost 1/4 of your wealth, dumped into an item (with charges, so it will be gone soon), that the party wizard could have cast on you for free.
Now, I know that if you're solo you'd maybe buy the item ... but really. That is a pretty horrible example.
Or, you know, have the party wizard cast it on you for free ... which saves you, what ... 22.37% of your total wealth? That is almost 1/4 of your wealth, dumped into an item (with charges, so it will be gone soon), that the party wizard could have cast on you for free.
Now, I know that if you're solo you'd maybe buy the item ... but really. That is a pretty horrible example.
If you are in a party without an arcane caster but folks with UMD you are also going to buy this one. You are going to buy several.
If the DM is crazy enough to allow polymorph, I mean.
Again, check how much gold are you allowed to spend in consumables going from level 7 to 9, please. You will be surprised.
Also, calculate how many level 4 spells can a wizard add to the spellbook with those 4000 gold.
An evil cleric can rebuke undead as a turn check. If the cleric has twice as many levels as the undead has HD then it can control it instead.
How are you controlling the 4 HD spellcaster?
Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
Right, found the line I missed. Yeah, that changes things dramatically, especially given that Frick and Frack are immune to cold, and my weapon is cold...fortunately, I have resist cold 10 too, so, it'd be a long fight. I probably should bring a non-magical club...
I think I still could do encounters 1-4, it'd take a couple days though. I'd have to figure out a way to kill the vampire. Persisting Footsteps of the Divine might help...
I'll run the numbers at some later date.
Right, found the line I missed. Yeah, that changes things dramatically, especially given that Frick and Frack are immune to cold, and my weapon is cold...fortunately, I have resist cold 10 too, so, it'd be a long fight. I probably should bring a non-magical club...
I think I still could do encounters 1-4, it'd take a couple days though. I'd have to figure out a way to kill the vampire. Persisting Footsteps of the Divine might help...
I'll run the numbers at some later date.
Be careful, if you get to close to the rebuked creatures then they are no longer rebuked.
I think we should make an undead using build for this "challenge"... but it is too much work. I'm both too busy and too lazy to actually do it. I'm happy to offer suggetions, though. :D
Your preaching to the converted!I have no time for an actual build...
But as long as we are noodling, what about, Fell Drain, for some Wights?
Did any one ever get anything official on what happens when a non-humanoid gets level drained to death?
How about Divine Magician for Command Undead, and other goodies?
BTW that Exemplars of Evil had something neat for a minion master of any kind, a Ceremony that grants all participants Message at will, plus some other stuff.
It seems that a big part of all the challenges is good intel. The undead are lousy scouts, seeing as they lack in intellect and often, the ability to speak, and Chain of Eyes doen't work on them since the Spell Compendium reprint
.Still there may be a way, and there isnt much that could hide for long from an army of shadows.
Since Im talking about minions, and every thing is up for grabs, let me just mention that one can buy slaves-there is a CR multiple formula for them in the Abberations book.Any thing you can find can a CR for can be priced.
This means you can start the encounter with any undead you can afford -and control.
This approach would work for Elementally Domained clerics, and others who have a means of control.
If you go this route, I would recommend buying a Large sized creature, and a Medium sized Familiar carrier, and sit out the ensuing battles from behind full cover as much as possible.
Meyer, he can cast even 9th level spells in time by picking a tome and a periapt. Moreover, maybe he does not resort to using Alter self with enemies that are actually suitable to her challenge rating (and she doesn't have to), but when she decided to fight a dungeon that is well over her challenge rating she decided to actually make the most out of her resources and thusly use Alter self before buying a scroll of PAO or something. Sounds smart to me.
Ok, so most of the time, the character does not use Arcane Disciple. I can see that.
Ok, so most of the time, the character does not use Arcane Disciple. I can see that.
Seems like a waste of a feat to me.
CrimsonDeath: Yes, he wasted a feat and still rocks. Kind of wasted a feat anyways...
Could be fluff. I just don't think fluff like that earns any extra points in this challenge :D
CrimsonDeath: Yes, he wasted a feat and still rocks. Kind of wasted a feat anyways...
Um, if you consider wasting a feat to mean "for most of the time when he adventures outside of this mini-adventure, he cannot use it, but during this mini-adventure which is the only time that scoring matters" then yes, it would be wasted.
To be honest, it'd be very easy to do that with point buy. It's even possible with elite array and if Alix's approvement is up to that, I'll just change the stats.
As I said, pointless fluff.
To be honest, it'd be very easy to do that with point buy. It's even possible with elite array and if Alix's approvement is up to that, I'll just change the stats.
No, the potion had nothing to do with anything. I was just commenting. Did I not update page one?
Can you examine your own build? Honestly, the way I see it, the alter self beats most of the encounters. You will have a rough time with the wraith, as your touch AC is horrible (unless I missed something) but you can't not win. The whole invisibility to undead tactic won't work though.
By the way, sorry about not running the gauntlet myself. That mathematics that has been used lately is just not the way I am used to do it. Honestly, I have no idea how it works.
I like to use weighted average, but people are saying that is giving slanted results.
The way you do it, you keep track of percent chances to make things happen. When you hit 50% (or 150, 250, etc) then you succeed.
Keep track of each related things (your chance to hit is in one bucket, your chance to make a saving throw is in another bucket, etc).
Keep track of monsters stuff the same way.
When you hit, you deal average damage.
By the way, sorry about not running the gauntlet myself. That mathematics that has been used lately is just not the way I am used to do it. Honestly, I have no idea how it works.
I like to use weighted average, but people are saying that is giving slanted results.
The way you do it, you keep track of percent chances to make things happen. When you hit 50% (or 150, 250, etc) then you succeed.
Keep track of each related things (your chance to hit is in one bucket, your chance to make a saving throw is in another bucket, etc).
Keep track of monsters stuff the same way.
When you hit, you deal average damage.
For an example. If you have 2 attacks in a turn, first one at 70% chance to hit, second on at 45%. You'd check the first one against your limit (most peeople seem to be using 50%) and if you succeed, you add 100 to that limit. So, the 70% succeeds, as it is more then50%, you then add 100 to 50% and the next limit is 150%. you now add your second attack to your current total for 115 (70+45), as this does not exceed 150, it fails.
next round
you add 70 (first attack) to your total for 185 (115 +70), which exceeds your current limit of 150, so you succeed and add 100 to your limit (for 250)
You add 45 (second attack) to your total for 230, which does not exceed your limit (250), so it fails.
next round
you add 70 (first attack) to your total for 300 (230 +70), which exceeds your current limit of 250, so you succeed and add 100 to your limit (for 350)
You add 45 (second attack) to your total for 345, which does not exceed your limit (350), so it fails.
next round
you add 70 (first attack) to your total for 415 (345+70), which exceeds your current limit of 350, so you succeed and add 100 to your limit (for 450)
You add 45 (second attack) to your total for 460, which exceeds your current limit of 450, so you succeed and add 100 to your limit (for 550)
etc etc.
True, and if it takes an adventure highly stacked against my build to prove that my CR5 cannot solo 4 CR 6 and 1 CR7 in the same day, then ... i guess you proved that. Note: a simple potion of protection from evil would have given me the win, i can afford it, but to buy it would be metagaming so I took the loss instead.
It should be hard for spellcasters as well, I tried to round it out so that all would have trouble. Only clerics should be able to handle it all, and the DMM cleric is having trouble.
As for the meta-gaming it works far better for spellcasters in most cases.
What part of my build is overpowered? Is it the base classes? Is it the magic item selection? Is it the feat selection? Is it the race? Is it the skills? Is it ToB?
No one part needs to be overpowered for the whole to be.
If I had to nail down the part that adds the most power to the build, I would say that it is the spiked chain. Still that alone isn't overpowered.
The way I saw things is that we are looking for a point in which casters become greater then noncasters. If casters can overtake a noncaster anytime before level 11 (10 or lower) does this not prove that they are overpowered, in respect to noncasters, for longer then they are underpowered?
The way I see it is the best way to do this is to start at level 1 and build your character up. At level 1, we throw 5 CR 1s at the caster and the noncaster and then increase the CR of the monsters in the dungeon until either the caster or noncaster loses. At that point, the one that lasted longer is the victor. After level 1 is cleared, then you would level your characters to level 2 and start at a CR and work your way up. Again, only stopping after you find a victor. Repeat this until it is clear when the casters overtake the noncasters. The reason I say this is because in my mind it's so easy to plan to be strong at level 5, like meyer's character(I am not trying to say you were weak before level 5, but you were just an example just like the DMM cleric could probably be an example), but what happens if you were weak the first four? Although I may be new to the CharOp boards I have been a gamer for a while and it's easy to aim for your end goal and be strong but suck horribly until then.
The problem with this approach is that a third party would have to make the encounters and not let them be known until the characters are done creating. This way, there aren't people memorizing/using hide from undead(just one example) for no apparent reason. Also, this approach would take a ridiculous amount of time, but no one is in a rush here, right? A similar dungeon could be used each time, but increased in size to accommodate the monsters (Huge snake in a 5 foot wide hallway?) and also give the monsters an advantage from the environment (like the rug in a treasure room).
I will try to catch up from page 29, but this may take a while. If this comes off as a flame or something along those lines I apologize, this is my first post on these boards, but I would honestly like to see the most out of this discussion because I enjoyed reading this thread.
One of the main topics has been whether or not a noncaster using a scroll is winning with his own assets or is a spellcaster's slave. There's one PAO Rogue in the first post and carnivore made a similar build using a Warmage.
I recommend you to read the entrants of this contest, they can be found from the first post.
Eklypze, as a quick recap: We are planning on moving to another dungeon. I think archerpwr already made some sort of a gauntler for level 7 characters who are to face a bunch of CR 10 monsters.
One of the main topics has been whether or not a noncaster using a scroll is winning with his own assets or is a spellcaster's slave. There's one PAO Rogue in the first post and carnivore made a similar build using a Warmage.
I recommend you to read the entrants of this contest, they can be found from the first post.
Tshern,
Have you noticed the other dungeons already posted? The links are found on the first page. I would like to see how caster's fare in these as well. This should help see the versatility that casters have.
The DMM Cleric attempted the Crypt of Creepiness, but still has some kinks to work out.
Eklypze, as a quick recap: We are planning on moving to another dungeon. I think archerpwr already made some sort of a gauntler for level 7 characters who are to face a bunch of CR 10 monsters.
I think carnivore is making it. I did suggest 4 CR 10 encounters, some skill checks, and a CR 5-7 trap. I'm inexperienced at DMing, but I'll whip something up if we need.
The DMM Cleric attempted the Crypt of Creepiness, but still has some kinks to work out.
I can do encounters 1-4 the same as your melee can (even with the 1st encounter messed up, is it not clear that they have 0% chance to do damage?)
The mummy encounter I'd make my fortitude saves, since he only hits me once, it's DC 16, and I have a save of +10. I'm still working on a way to kill the vampire.
A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter.
What happens if I corner it? Does it have to move action past me, provoking AoO's?
If I approach it, does it have to retreat? Couldn't I charge each round, with the vampire forced to retreat each round?
And even if I fail the save against the dominate, it can't force me to do anything dangerous, and it still can't hit me - "rest of the encounter."
Unfortunately, cold resistance 10...
Hmmm...
Eklypze, as a quick recap: We are planning on moving to another dungeon. I think archerpwr already made some sort of a gauntler for level 7 characters who are to face a bunch of CR 10 monsters.
One of the main topics has been whether or not a noncaster using a scroll is winning with his own assets or is a spellcaster's slave. There's one PAO Rogue in the first post and carnivore made a similar build using a Warmage.
I recommend you to read the entrants of this contest, they can be found from the first post.
A lot changed over the 9 pages I didn't read (I had a feeling this would be the case). The problem is now that this thread seems to be derailing off topic like the lockdown thread did.
I do look forward to seeing the level 7 challenges though. Everyone keep up the good work!
you have not Shown a Proper control for comparison..... you need to build a generic base Non-caster that can go thru these challenges:
Fighter 5
Barbarian 5
Ranger 5
Rogue 5
Bard 5
Paladin 5
but you need to set better guidelines, in addition to your original ones:
1)No relying on Casters... Buying a PAO(15th lvl caster required), means you could not have done it without a caster... Non-casters cant Buy Spells from casters unless the appropriate level build casters can also cast the spell: exa. a Non-caster cant buy a scroll of Teleport, because a 5th lvl caster cant cast it yet, but they could buy any 3rd lvl spell they want because that is within the reach of a 5th lvl caster .... this weakens Sorcerors, Warmages, Favored Souls, etc.... any Spontaneous Caster that must wait until 6th to gain 3rd lvl spells. The only exception is Weapons and Armor, buy what you like(within limits..see below)
2)No ToB...... ToB is Absolutely Overpowered compared to Core Martial classes...... if you cant see that, this experiment has no value, and is not worth any more of time
3)Provide a generic Partial equipment list for all entrants= 1/4 GP of 5th lvl character(or whatever level you wish to compare), the rest is choosen by the Builder(no more than 1/4 of remainder on a single item)..... this puts everyone on a similar playingfield, an limits the effect of equipment..... thus the comparison will be: Casters Spells vs Martial/Skill ability see which is ovepowered.
Note: Definition of Overpowered = Any build that can complete these Challenges by using less than 1/4 consumable resources(a CR 5 encounter is designed to challenge 4 characters of 5th lvl so that they use only 1/4 resources to overcome it.... we are throwing several CR 5 encounters at a single 5th lvl Character)
4)use a 25 point buy .... it is more flexible and allows both casters and Non-casters to better customize thier ability scores(the Elite Array is a 25 point buy)
the idea should be to make a Fair comparison of Casters vs Non-casters , Spells vs Martial/Skill abilities
in addition .... why not also have them face Large quantities of enemies(army) and see how they do how about this:
25 CR 3 creatures on an open battlefield ..... goals : one of the following:
[indent]prevent them from crossing the field
prevent them from killing a ward you are protecting
you must free thier captives
you must take as many of them captive, ALIVE[/indent]
there needs to be different ways to guage the effectiveness of the builds.... run all builds thru both types of encounters(open(battlefield/wilderness) and Closed(dungeon/urban)
I would prefer not to, as a commoner can do the same exact thing. The spells PAO Man can cast do not affect the success of this build. If at least one other person thinks that it is a legitimate caster build, then I will. However, remember that the exact same character can be built as a commoner.
no it cant ..... otherwise eveyone would only play commoners ..... do you really think commoners are that strong... that they can do everything a caster can??? you think a commoner is a strong as a Cleric?, Druid?, Wizard?
does the Build i made CAST SPELLS?....... YES
is it a Caster??? ................................. YES
if it is strong based solely on a single item of equipment and is being disallowed.... then you also must Disallow the Rogue as it does the same and is only successful because of that spell.... if it does not rely on that spell...show me how it will work without using it, and how its class abilities make it so powerful
PAO Man is a Valid Build for this discussion and should be recognized ... or else disallow any other similar build
:D
i was just thinking about this whole experiment.... the entire premis is Incorrect:
you have not Shown a Proper control for comparison..... you need to build a generic base Non-caster that can go thru these challenges:
Um, I thought I did that with my orc? Who loses to the vampire (cr7), which is the same one that the cleric loses to.
Fighter 5
Barbarian 5
Ranger 5
Rogue 5
Bard 5
Paladin 5
These are examples of single classed characters, which are extremely restricted versions of noncasters. What does it mean if noncasters have to be limited to single-classed builds so that casters can compete?
but you need to set better guidelines, in addition to your original ones:
1)No relying on Casters... Buying a PAO(15th lvl caster required), means you could not have done it without a caster... Non-casters cant Buy Spells from casters unless the appropriate level build casters can also cast the spell: exa. a Non-caster cant buy a scroll of Teleport, because a 5th lvl caster cant cast it yet, but they could buy any 3rd lvl spell they want because that is within the reach of a 5th lvl caster .... this weakens Sorcerors, Warmages, Favored Souls, etc.... any Spontaneous Caster that must wait until 6th to gain 3rd lvl spells. The only exception is Weapons and Armor, buy what you like(within limits..see below)
So the PAO elf could buy a scroll of alter self and protection from energy and complete the level 5 dungeon virtually exactly like it did?
2)No ToB...... ToB is Absolutely Overpowered compared to Core Martial classes...... if you cant see that, this experiment has no value, and is not worth any more of time
Is ToB a caster or a non-caster? If the 1 level of a ToB class is enough for my noncaster to compete, then ToB is more powerful than casters.
3)Provide a generic Partial equipment list for all entrants= 1/4 GP of 5th lvl character(or whatever level you wish to compare), the rest is choosen by the Builder(no more than 1/4 of remainder on a single item)..... this puts everyone on a similar playingfield, an limits the effect of equipment..... thus the comparison will be: Casters Spells vs Martial/Skill ability see which is ovepowered.
I completely disagree.
As we have seen, there is very little equipment choice that is valid for both casters and noncasters.
Weapons? Not the same
Armor? Not the same
Potions? Not the same
Scrolls/wands? not all can use it.
Note: Definition of Overpowered = Any build that can complete these Challenges by using less than 1/4 consumable resources(a CR 5 encounter is designed to challenge 4 characters of 5th lvl so that they use only 1/4 resources to overcome it.... we are throwing several CR 5 encounters at a single 5th lvl Character)
The purpose of this is to compare casters to noncasters. If the definition of overpowered cannot distinguish between the two, then the experiment is meaningless.
4)use a 25 point buy .... it is more flexible and allows both casters and Non-casters to better customize thier ability scores(the Elite Array is a 25 point buy)
How will this be more flexible? Casters will be able to choose a 17 or 18 in their caster stat and ignore most of the rest. This is not flexible, this is an attempt to increase their casting stats.
the idea should be to make a Fair comparison of Casters vs Non-casters , Spells vs Martial/Skill abilities
in addition .... why not also have them face Large quantities of enemies(army) and see how they do how about this:
If you are asking to have a new encounter, then feel free to post one.
25 CR 3 creatures on an open battlefield ..... goals : one of the following:
[indent]prevent them from crossing the field
prevent them from killing a ward you are protecting
you must free thier captives
you must take as many of them captive, ALIVE[/indent]
25 CR3 is way above a cr5.
no it cant ..... otherwise eveyone would only play commoners ..... do you really think commoners are that strong... that they can do everything a caster can??? you think a commoner is a strong as a Cleric?, Druid?, Wizard?
does the Build i made CAST SPELLS?....... YES
is it a Caster??? ................................. YES
Um, in case you didnt follow my argument.
I stated that a commoner with PAO could pass the cr5 in a very similar fashion to your PAO caster build (i.e. It walks through, bashing everything). Since you didn't demonstrate the CASTER aspect of your build, then a noncaster performs just as well.
if it is strong based solely on a single item of equipment and is being disallowed.... then you also must Disallow the Rogue as it does the same and is only successful because of that spell.... if it does not rely on that spell...show me how it will work without using it, and how its class abilities make it so powerful
Um, the PAO rogue would perform similarly using alter self.
One poster said that the most overpowered part of my character was my spiked chain. Without it (reach weapon with no minimum distance) I could not have gone through the dungeon as easily as I did. But to disallow my build because of that is cheesy (combat reflexes and ewp spiked chain means that I basically spent two feats to use this piece of equipment) the same thing is also true for my cloak of fire riposte (which i spent one feat to get to work).
PAO Man is a Valid Build for this discussion and should be recognized ... or else disallow any other similar build
:D
Like I said, if one other poster thinks that PAO man is a valid build (even though it is not a complete build) then I will post a commoner version using as similar tactics as possible. Any doubts that a build I build will outshine the one you posted?
i was just thinking about this whole experiment.... the entire premis is Incorrect:
1)No relying on Casters
Buying spellcasting is part of equipment. The limit of what spells are available to casters of that level may be helpful. This will also add power to casters with Arcane Thesis, or early entry methods.
2)No ToB
I agree with the OP, ToB has been around long enough and is a major non-caster resource. Besides, this is not a core-only experiment. This was brought to CharOp to crank out the crazy.
3)Provide a generic Partial equipment list for all entrants
Some equipment standardization might be helpful. Not CharOp material though.
Note: Definition of Overpowered = Any build that can complete these Challenges by using less than 1/4 consumable resources
I dunno. I'd like to see some "unoptimized" characters get hosed by the dungeons first. So far, it seems like we've just shown how far off the CR system is.
4)use a 25 point buy
This is probably a good option compared to Elite Array. This is CharOp, so we don't care about average scores and well rounded characters.
I see no reason to credit Candles of Invocation or purchased PAO as either a caster or non-caster win. Hence, it is largely irrelevant to this discussion. If you really want, I second a link to the Campaign Smashers thread, with a footnote about how these techniques are clearly overpowered - but do not demonstrate caster overpoweredness as much as spell overpoweredness.*
*Note that there are Campaign Smashers that are only available to casters, and these could show caster superiority.
I do think that there is a difference between casters and spells. Spells are incredibly powerful and versatile. Some spells are downright broken. The limiting factor is that casters do not have access to every spell for every occasion. They are limited by spells known, prepared, and/or slots remaining.
At higher levels, once a large amount of spells become available and the relative cost of adding more spells known decreases, not to mention higher level spells being more of the broken variety (Miracle, Wish, Time Stop... ya, the ability to alter reality to that extent is pretty damn powerful), casters definitely own the game. Surely by level 17 casters are dominating, since without cheese that is when 9th level spells come into play. If 4th or 5th level spells completely dominate 7th and 9th level respectively, then we have a case for casters being stronger, longer.
I still think that when it comes to really playing D&D with a party, a group with a mix of casters and non-casters has it's merits. A druid may replace a big, stupid fighter - but has a tough time replacing a feat intensive battlefield control build.
A note on casters:
By Yourself: Now in this rare circumstance - save or dies are actually quite good. However - avoid this situation like the plague. If there is no Big Stupid Fighter, then YOU are the Big Stupid Fighter, except you aren't Big, and you're not a fighter (but you are stupid if you had any chance to avoid this ugly situation).
Point buy on the other hand is absolutely a good idea. Not only is point buy used while elite array isn't (I'd never even heard of it being used for PCs before this), it allows more tweaking. Yes it's better than elite array for casters, but unless you're intentionally stacking the deck against casters that shouldn't be a consideration.
I suggest that for realism the rules follow a not too uncommon pattern: upon reaching 5th level you have finally worked your way into a large town. Your 4th level wealth (5,400 gp) could only purchase goods and services worth less than 800 gp, while wealth gained since then (3,600) has a cap of 3000 gp. This allows the purchase of a single powerful item,
which is fairly realistic. It also means that those who invest in craft skills can circumvent the cap, if they really want to.
For the purposes of expending disposable resources, perhaps rule that expending more an average of 200 gp per encounter (about 20% of your expected wealth gain) is wasteful and disqualifies you. This stops characters from relying on high level wands to burn through encounters.
Overpowered can mean that the character easily dispatches appropriate CRs. It can also mean that they are able to take on challenges above what they should be able to deal with. I'm sure we've all seen it with plenty of characters once in a while. Let's see if it can be consistently done.
I agree with Meyer's on tome of battle: it should definitely be allowed. Most campaigns I know of allow Tome of battle; if anything should go, it should be Unearthed Arcana material first (feat rogue, flaws, etc.) (Note, not being too familiar with Tome of Battle, I'm still certain that ECL 7 is the point where casters really start to shine.
Point buy on the other hand is absolutely a good idea. Not only is point buy used while elite array isn't (I'd never even heard of it being used for PCs before this), it allows more tweaking. Yes it's better than elite array for casters, but unless you're intentionally stacking the deck against casters that shouldn't be a consideration.
As it stands: (casters)
They know (metagaming) every encounter in order. They know the strengths/weaknesses of each monster (group). They are allowed to pick whatever spells, in whatever quantity they choose. They are allowed to use broken mechanics that will never see legitimate gameplay (otherworldly and alter self (Dwarven Ancestor), DMM + swift spells).
But choosing Elite Array (no 18s) is stacking the deck vs casters? Seriously?
I hadn't known their overpoweredness was so vulnerable.
Btw -- is the DMM cleric the only participant (other than myself) interested in trying out either the alternate CR5 or either CR6 mini-adventure? Personally, I think this should occur prior to increasing the CR of the dungeon any higher. As it stands, there are some severe limitations in most of the caster builds that I would like to see how they are overcome.
I would like to see, as a way to show overpoweredness, the entrants deal with inappropriate challenges. Maybe bring the level 5 characters through a level 7 dungeon (or any series of encounters that are 2 to 4 EL's above the character's level). Those that can still make it through are probably overpowered.
Overpowered can mean that the character easily dispatches appropriate CRs. It can also mean that they are able to take on challenges above what they should be able to deal with. I'm sure we've all seen it with plenty of characters once in a while. Let's see if it can be consistently done.
I agree with this. However, the results won't be realistic.
Casters are soloing these encounters. That's very different than being in a party. Some casters being posited here might be failing these encounters (whether they are appropriate level or higher) simply because they are soloing. But this shouldn't mean they are not overpowered. If in a party, those same casters may become an overpowering force since they have someone to protect them and draw fire, or detect enemies before battle.
And no, I don't think it takes away from the idea of being 'overpowered' if the caster relies on a party. I think if most encounters are easy for you, you're overpowered.
Please don't ask me to define 'easy' ;).
I would like to see, as a way to show overpoweredness, the entrants deal with inappropriate challenges. Maybe bring the level 5 characters through a level 7 dungeon (or any series of encounters that are 2 to 4 EL's above the character's level). Those that can still make it through are probably overpowered.
Overpowered can mean that the character easily dispatches appropriate CRs. It can also mean that they are able to take on challenges above what they should be able to deal with. I'm sure we've all seen it with plenty of characters once in a while. Let's see if it can be consistently done.
A CR5 encounter is on-par with a party of 4 level 5 characters. 4 of these encounters is a normal packed day for a party.
We are currently examining having 5 CR5 encounters for one party member (i.e. it is already inappropriate challenges).
My noncaster got through the UNDEAD mini-adventure (CR6) to the same stopping point as the CLERIC (I assume he can reach this far, his first attempt had a couple snags). He also took on the alternate CR5 and beat it. So far, the noncaster is handling it consistently.
I can do encounters 1-4 the same as your melee can (even with the 1st encounter messed up, is it not clear that they have 0% chance to do damage?)
Encounter 1: The one guy can web/breath on you, once he is able to act. This might be enough damage to bring you down. Unless you have some cold resistance I missed?
The mummy encounter I'd make my fortitude saves, since he only hits me once, it's DC 16, and I have a save of +10. I'm still working on a way to kill the vampire.
Ok, I thought what you posted showed that you got hit twice. I must have misread it.
What happens if I corner it? Does it have to move action past me, provoking AoO's?
If I approach it, does it have to retreat? Couldn't I charge each round, with the vampire forced to retreat each round?
And even if I fail the save against the dominate, it can't force me to do anything dangerous, and it still can't hit me - "rest of the encounter."
Unfortunately, cold resistance 10...
Hmmm...
I don't know what happens if you corner it, but I don't know if you hold the holy symbol in an authorative fashion while bashing its brains in.
This is how a failed dominate will kill you:
Vampire: It is obvious that your diety has blessed you with his power. I yield and would like to hear more about your diety (beliefs).
You: Um... ok. (not against beliefs, not self-destructive)
(time elapses, your balor's nimbus expires, etc)
Vampire: There is no need to recast those spells, you are with friends, there is nothing here that can harm you. I am intrigued, tell me more.
(time elapses, all your buffs fall off).
Vampire: DIE!!!! (possible CQG, depending).
He is, after all, "Patient as death"
Casters are soloing these encounters. That's very different than being in a party. Some casters being posited here might be failing these encounters (whether they are appropriate level or higher) simply because they are soloing. But this shouldn't mean they are not overpowered. If in a party, those same casters may become an overpowering force since they have someone to protect them and draw fire, or detect enemies before battle.
And no, I don't think it takes away from the idea of being 'overpowered' if the caster relies on a party. I think if most encounters are easy for you, you're overpowered.
We see in lots of threads posters talking about how casters can solo encounters of their CR easily. In this thread (on the char op board) we are seeing the problems that casters have in game.
In the same threads where caster versatily is held up, noncasters lack of versatility (lack of stuff to change) is held up as a weakness. This is not being seen as a weakness in this thread.
We see in lots of threads posters talking about how casters can solo encounters of their CR easily. In this thread (on the char op board) we are seeing the problems that casters have in game.
In the same threads where caster versatily is held up, noncasters lack of versatility (lack of stuff to change) is held up as a weakness. This is not being seen as a weakness in this thread.
because we are only @ level 5.... where Casters START to gain power...
i have to PM Tshern with the corrections that need to be made to our build ... but it should complete the Challenge of the Cave...... Without Metagaming and without PAO crap ... he can post it when he is able
i have another build that i will post for the CR 6+ challenge that should be able to overcome anything you throw at it better than your Orc and not require all the buffing
also i will address your coments later as well
:D
As many games exist between level one and twelve, levels 5 and 10 are the most important levels to look at. There may be overpoweredness beyond there, but the likelihood of encountering those levels in an actual game decrease with level, thus lessening the impact.
The other aspect of characters that we are measuring is their development. To go onto level 10, you must start with your level 5 character. This way, your character pays the opportunity cost for optimizing for his level, rather than optimizing for the life of the character.
because we are only @ level 5.... where Casters START to gain power...
My premise at the start of this, was that noncasters > casters at early levels. If what you are experiencing means that this is correct, then we need to start talking about higher levels. If people are experiencing that their casters are blowing non-casters away at this level, we need to reduce the character levels to find out when casters > noncasters.
i have to PM Tshern with the corrections that need to be made to our build ... but it should complete the Challenge of the Cave...... Without Metagaming and without PAO crap ... he can post it when he is able
PM me when you are ready for me to re-examine, just make sure that there is enough information there for me to examine (i.e. as much as possible, including tactics, etc).
i have another build that i will post for the CR 6+ challenge that should be able to overcome anything you throw at it better than your Orc and not require all the buffing
Note: I have never posted a single monster or set of monsters. I have reacted to them the same way you guys have to.
I have DMed and played in games that allowed outsider Polymorph cheese. So it isn't all that unbelievable. Not all games are played by people who dislike optimizing, and that stuff isn't nearly as broken as alot of other tricks that are possible (free Wishes, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, binding Nightmares for Astral Projection, etc). It is actually still manageable by a DM who is familiar with optimization. The dwarf ancestor is extreme since it can be accessed at level 5 and gives such a huge AC boost though, I will grant you that. :P
Out of curiosity. In those games that allowed otherworldly+alter self, could a warrior take otherwordly and buy a PAO into a horned devil at level 3 (or planetar, to avoid paladin lynching mobs) or was the DM restricting the cheese to casters?
Out of curiosity. In those games that allowed otherworldly+alter self, could a warrior take otherwordly and buy a PAO into a horned devil at level 3 (or planetar, to avoid paladin lynching mobs) or was the DM restricting the cheese to casters?
In the game I DMed, this stuff didn't really kick in till the Aasimar Battle Sorcerer got Polymorph. I would have let someone purchase PaO, but I doubt I would have let them use it to turn into something overpowered at level 3.
I have never seen anyone allow something like that in other games, either. Well... not since I was playing with my teenage buddies 15-20 years ago. :P I would probably have house-ruled that you could only turn into something with your hit dice or less with PaO if it had came up, but it didn't.
In an epic game I played in, I had an outsider rogue-type character that had Alter Self at will from a class ability. I never bothered to use higher level Polymorph effects, though.
Who loses to the vampire (cr7), which is the same one that the cleric loses to.
Working on it :-)
Encounter 1: The one guy can web/breath on you, once he is able to act. This might be enough damage to bring you down. Unless you have some cold resistance I missed?
Yep, Visage of the Deity, Lesser, Evil gives 10 FR and 10 CR. Average damage using his level 2 spells is 14. A level 1 spell does 2d6, giving it a 1 in 36 chance of dealing damage.
This is how a failed dominate will kill you:
Vampire: It is obvious that your diety has blessed you with his power. I yield and would like to hear more about your diety (beliefs).
You: Um... ok. (not against beliefs, not self-destructive)
(time elapses, your balor's nimbus expires, etc)
Vampire: There is no need to recast those spells, you are with friends, there is nothing here that can harm you. I am intrigued, tell me more.
(time elapses, all your buffs fall off).
Vampire: DIE!!!! (possible CQG, depending).
He is, after all, "Patient as death"
A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
True. But he still can't attack me for the rest of the encounter. He'd have to find a crossbow or something. The encounter is until we stop fighting, which would be, in my opinion, until he loses control. For until that happens, I will fight him with all my will.
Admittedly, this does produce a rather interesting connundrum. I don't seem to be able to kill him, but he can't kill me (although he can send me to kill things with appropriate CR challenge and level me up).
Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.
So while my buffs do drop, he still doesn't get the ability to kill me.
I'm going to need to re-run numbers for the battles anyways, but that will take a while. Worse comes to worse, I can handle everything but the vampire.
What's the DC for driving a wooden stake through it's heart on a charge attack?
Because after 12 days (or it does something bad), it looses control, and I can run out. I come back, rebuffed (getting my will save to +16 again), and I have 10 rounds before rolling a natural 1, in which to continue to stab steaks at it.
Working on it :-)
Great!! I look forward to reading it. I know that I have more respect for DMM than I previously had.
Yep, Visage of the Deity, Lesser, Evil gives 10 FR and 10 CR. Average damage using his level 2 spells is 14. A level 1 spell does 2d6, giving it a 1 in 36 chance of dealing damage.
3 in 36 for a level 1 (11, 11, 12) -- however, this assumes you fail the save. If you make it, then you don't take damage (save for half).
True. But he still can't attack me for the rest of the encounter. He'd have to find a crossbow or something. The encounter is until we stop fighting, which would be, in my opinion, until he loses control. For until that happens, I will fight him with all my will.
Admittedly, this does produce a rather interesting connundrum. I don't seem to be able to kill him, but he can't kill me (although he can send me to kill things with appropriate CR challenge and level me up).
So while my buffs do drop, he still doesn't get the ability to kill me.
You need a standard to present the holy symbol, keeping him at bay. He can still make the dominate check (per what you quoted, he cannot melee you). This is not a stalemate.
I'm going to need to re-run numbers for the battles anyways, but that will take a while. Worse comes to worse, I can handle everything but the vampire.
I already complained about the vampire, as it is a CR 7, not CR6, the last level of warblade gave it enough hps to live versus me (per what I posted).
What's the DC for driving a wooden stake through it's heart on a charge attack?
Unsure, but unless we happen to have a wooden stake, it is a moot point.
Because after 12 days (or it does something bad), it looses control, and I can run out. I come back, rebuffed (getting my will save to +16 again), and I have 10 rounds before rolling a natural 1, in which to continue to stab steaks at it.
It kills you before the 12 days are up, just like it kills me (currently). This is the whole "patient as death" thing.
If the vampire is waiting someone's buffs out, why couldn't he summon his creatures of the night to attack after the fact?
Without the buffs, the DMM cleric is not uber and cannot beat the vampire. The summoning would be overkill.
3 in 36 for a level 1 (11, 11, 12) -- however, this assumes you fail the save. If you make it, then you don't take damage (save for half).
Yeah, may as well assume that I fail the save. Right, for some reason I discounted the 11's.
You need a standard to present the holy symbol, keeping him at bay. He can still make the dominate check (per what you quoted, he cannot melee you). This is not a stalemate.
Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
The way I am reading that, is once I hold it at bay once, as long as I have my holy symbol ready, I don't need to use another standard action each round.
It kills you before the 12 days are up, just like it kills me (currently). This is the whole "patient as death" thing.
Well, actually, it can't approach me until the encounter ends. An encounter is rather undefined, but when it is attacking me with hostile magic, I think we are still in encounter mode. So it can't approach me.
If the vampire is waiting someone's buffs out, why couldn't he summon his creatures of the night to attack after the fact?
Good one. Definitely. So it waits 2 days for my buffs to run out:
Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
Definitely can't take 11 wolves unbuffed, much less the swarms. And my cold weapon deals 16 damage on average - it has resist cold 10 and fast healing 5...so yeah, don't see myself beating the vampire.
I'll continue to comb books for better 3rd level spells. I found one, though, that is definitely usable.
As it stands: (casters)
But choosing Elite Array (no 18s) is stacking the deck vs casters? Seriously?
If reality stacks the deck in favor of casters, it stacks the deck in favor of casters. If you could illustrate for me why in Baator you chose Elite Array for a reason other than it proves that Martial characters are less effected by obscure ability generation methods, I would agree with you. As far as I can tell your only reason not to do point buy is that
Casters will be able to choose a 17 or 18 in their caster stat and ignore most of the rest. This is not flexible, this is an attempt to increase their casting stats.
Elite Array is not representative of how the majority of players create PCs, it is not representative of the average values of casting stats real casters have, and it doesn't even do a good job approximating what the average martial character looks like. It approximates only a small fraction of rolled ability sets, It isn't a recommended system, the only reason it is in existence is because it makes NPC generation faster, and honestly, a large slice of DMs I know, including myself, don't even use it for that. In fact the only reason Elite Array has any appeal whatsoever is that it's an obscure system that can handicap characters in a way that might be possible to work around. If not using this awkward, obscure, and inorganic system means that commoners can beat up an epic druid 274/275 times, then so be it.
ReaderofPosts, Elite Array is not awkward or obscure. It's simply a pre-selected 25 point-buy. And it is a more accurate representation of what the game assumes a character's ability scores will look like. A 15 in your primary stat is what the game expects, not a 17 or 18 before racial modifiers. I'm not arguing for or against its use, I'm just not sure why you're making it seem so... strange.
Ikiren, the quote tells us that when you hold a vampire at bay, it recoils. It then goes on to explain those terms. The last sentence says that to hold a vampire at bay requires a standard action. That says to me that you must use a standard action each turn to hold it at bay.
ReaderofPosts, Elite Array is not awkward or obscure. It's simply a pre-selected 25 point-buy. And it is a more accurate representation of what the game assumes a character's ability scores will look like. A 15 in your primary stat is what the game expects, not a 17 or 18 before racial modifiers. I'm not arguing for or against its use, I'm just not sure why you're making it seem so... strange.
I disagree with a 15 in the primary stat. Most players will go with 16 PB. 18 is only in higher PB (32ish) or in extremely SAD clases (wizard). Using elite array as:
16, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 would be closer to what players would grab with 25 PB.
ReaderofPosts, Elite Array is not awkward or obscure. It's simply a pre-selected 25 point-buy. And it is a more accurate representation of what the game assumes a character's ability scores will look like. A 15 in your primary stat is what the game expects, not a 17 or 18 before racial modifiers. I'm not arguing for or against its use, I'm just not sure why you're making it seem so... strange.
To be honest I honestly don't feel it's that bad. At this level you'll still have a 16 in your primary stat, and the bonus spells and DC really aren't that awe inspiring.
I was utilizing a tad bid of hyperbole because Meyer's defense of the system completely baffles me. It's not that it's bad as much as there just seems no reason whatsoever for it.
I disagree with a 15 in the primary stat. Most players will go with 16 PB.
Well, I'm not sure what most players would do ;).
18 is only in higher PB (32ish) or in extremely SAD clases (wizard).
I agree with the higher point-buy. I'm not sure how a wizard affords an 18 in his intelligence with 25 point-buy though.
Using elite array as:
16, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 would be closer to what players would grab with 25 PB.
Eww. Not me. I hate negative modifiers. Two of them would suck even more.
Well, I'm not sure what most players would do ;).
I agree with the higher point-buy. I'm not sure how a wizard affords an 18 in his intelligence with 25 point-buy though.
Eww. Not me. I hate negative modifiers. Two of them would suck even more.
25 pb wizard (assuming a medium sized race, because gnomes can't do this due to first level carrying capacity issues):
Str: 9 (1)
Dex: 10 (0)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 18 (16)
Wis: 8 (0)
Cha: 8 (0)
I tend to view point buy ability scores in three catagories: good score (16 or 18), bad score (6-10), 14 (useful score to have, but not worth the increased cost).
The druid does something more like this with 25:
Str: 9 (1)
Dex: 10 (2)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 14 (6)
Wis: 16 (10)
Cha: 8 (0)
Cleric goes more like this:
Str: 13 (5)
Dex: 8 (0)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 8 (0)
Wis: 16 (10)
Cha: 12 (4)
Melee class:
Str: 16 (10)
Dex: 12 (4)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 12 (4)
Wis: 9 (1)
Cha: 8 (0)
Eww. Not me. I hate negative modifiers. Two of them would suck even more.
I have to agree with this, I don't think I've every deliberately taken less than a 10 in point-buy unless I was told to or was trying to prove a point. By that same token I don't think I've ever sprung for higher than a 16 either.
25 pb wizard (assuming a medium sized race, because gnomes can't do this due to first level carrying capacity issues):
Str: 9 (1)
Dex: 10 (0)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 18 (16)
Wis: 8 (0)
Cha: 8 (0)
The druid does something more like this with 25:
Str: 9 (1)
Dex: 10 (2)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 14 (6)
Wis: 16 (10)
Cha: 8 (0)
Cleric goes more like this:
Str: 13 (5)
Dex: 8 (0)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 8 (0)
Wis: 16 (10)
Cha: 12 (4)
Melee class:
Str: 16 (10)
Dex: 12 (4)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 12 (4)
Wis: 9 (1)
Cha: 8 (0)
So essentially, every time you play a character, you're roleplaying at least two scores below average. Your wizard is a genius, but he is physically weak, ugly, has little personality, and lacks common sense and willpower.
Druids are also physically weak, ugly, and lack personality.
Clerics are clumsy and stupid.
And I guess warriors are ugly, and lack willpower, common sense, and personality.
Now I won't try and argue that this isn't possible or that no one would take these ability scores. I just think they suck :P. Not only are the ability scores mechanically challenging, they can also be challenging in a roleplaying aspect, with people not really knowing how to act out a stupid character, or a clumsy character, or someone that lacks personality.
Granted, people generally ignore those types of considerations on this board, but I'm not so convinced that those ability scores represent the norm of what players would choose.
So essentially, every time you play a character, you're roleplaying at least two scores below average. Your wizard is a genius, but he is physically weak, ugly, has little personality, and lacks common sense and willpower.
Druids are also physically weak, ugly, and lack personality.
Clerics are clumsy and stupid.
And I guess warriors are ugly, and lack willpower, common sense, and personality.
Now I won't try and argue that this isn't possible or that no one would take these ability scores. I just think they suck :P. Not only are the ability scores mechanically challenging, they can also be challenging in a roleplaying aspect, with people not really knowing how to act out a stupid character, or a clumsy character, or someone that lacks personality.
Granted, people generally ignore those types of considerations on this board, but I'm not so convinced that those ability scores represent the norm of what players would choose.
I think RP tends to go out the window when you're optimizing.
Also, the dungeon should be made after the characters by someone who will be neutral in its design. I don't think any character should be able to see the dungeon before entering it (so no meta-gaming). Maybe a description of the end boss could be provided or perhaps no information at all. You could do it encounter by encounter and see how every character takes on each encounter before they even know the next one. The hard part is the dungeon designer is basically a DM and shouldn't even tell people that the monster is a wight for instance unless he can make the check for it (knowledges good for something?). The hard part is doing all these encounters. Again, it would take a lot of time but it's a lot more thorough.
Also, I think one of the big problems here is that some people are just better players/optimizers.
Oh well, just throwing it out there. I'll sink back into the crowd and watch the show.
RP
I was just giving IMO, optimal 25 pb for class X. You can have different scores, but those wouldn't be the generic optimal 25 pb X. I'm just speaking mechanics here. Since we were discussing why elite array is problematic, I thought I'd show how unrealistic it is.
I don't really want to go to the effort of working out the entire build but the one posted is still stupidly strong if you remove warbeast from the companion and the barding from the druid.
It could be improved by taking a couple of flaws/traits for free feats too.
Edit: Also I would like to see a melee build that doesn't include Bo9S or PAO. Yes, as per the rules the op they are valid but Bo9S is basically spells for melee, and PAO is just dumb.
I think we need to divide "broken/not broken" into more parts. For instance, we all know items can be broken. Characters of all sorts can use a scroll of PaO for instance, and win at life. So, that item is obviously overpowered. Casters use spells, and so some can be overpowered by virtue of access (alter self access makes some broken by default.) I think from here, we seperate these outlier cases and create
a) ordinary power scale:
Non-broken builds. This can be unoptimized casters, non-casters and such without any of the afforementioned broken items.
b) Casters attempting to be broken:
Any caster build that does not rely upon obviously broken magic items or spells to win, but uses mixtures of feats, class abilities and domain abilities to win.
This would disqualify anyone who used alter-self/polymorph any object for an automatic win, as well as future builds that have too heavy a reliance upon abilities generated from money. These builds are demonstrating that money is broken. What we should now focus on is if casters are also broken.
The druid with fleshraker animal companion and venomfire makes all the melee builds look pretty junky. I'm guessing thats why it was ignored.
Actually, someone did a Druid/Fleshraker/Venomfire build. I don't think it was ever finished, though.
It's really getting tiring seeing people try to claim casters are superior to non-casters, under the condition that non-casters get no items despite gear being a standard part of the game, they get no access to services provided in the players handbook, they don't have access to a book of melee options and they aren't allowed to multiclass (this ones been more rare on this thread, but I do believe it was mentioned, and it usually comes up). while casters are entitled to full access to all material, including campaign specific, and that any questionable ruling falls in their favour. Casters (not spells) are claimed to be superior to non-caster. prove that. Prove that it's the casters and not the spells (since spells are accessible to anyone) that make them superior.
As to elite array. I realize that it is not ideal for casters, however, as this is a set of scenarios that include, for the most part, only combat encounters. point buy allows you to dump multiple stats, including charisma, which will rarely be needed. Elite array, while not ideal, helps to prevent uneven stat distributions that would abuse this factor. Take archerpwr's 9, 10, 14, 18, 8, 8. While I'm not denying this is a possible spread, it is certainly unlikely (dex is often lauded as an important stat for casters, and dumping wisdom seems pretty uncommon in my experience) and is definatly abusing the nature of the challenge (being combat only). Should "must be able to abuse stat allocation" be added to the criteria of things a caster needs in order to be overpowered?
It's really getting tiring seeing people try to claim casters are superior to non-casters, under the condition that non-casters get no items despite gear being a standard part of the game, they get no access to services provided in the players handbook, they don't have access to a book of melee options and they aren't allowed to multiclass (this ones been more rare on this thread, but I do believe it was mentioned, and it usually comes up). while casters are entitled to full access to all material, including campaign specific, and that any questionable ruling falls in their favour. Casters (not spells) are claimed to be superior to non-caster. prove that. Prove that it's the casters and not the spells (since spells are accessible to anyone) that make them superior.
I think my abjurer did something along those lines.
Since items are a standard part of the game, the point is moot. Items are broken to all hells, and if you say free access everyone including a level 1 commoner is broken across all levels. So we're done. All classes, commoner to fighter to wizard to whatever are all broken.
I did not say we remove all items. Just the ones that can guarantee wins across all builds independant of anything else. I think I posited we consider the same for spells cast by spellcasters as well. This way, we're not comparing anything to items, which people won't be exceeding anyway. At best, a person can match the power of an item or a spell, but they are already so broken as to make that a good benchmark for broken.
So essentially, every time you play a character, you're roleplaying at least two scores below average. Your wizard is a genius, but he is physically weak, ugly, has little personality, and lacks common sense and willpower.
Druids are also physically weak, ugly, and lack personality.
Clerics are clumsy and stupid.
And I guess warriors are ugly, and lack willpower, common sense, and personality.
I thought an 8 was an average, not dramatically sub par?
I think you mean: Druids are physically normal, look normal, and have a normal personality. Clerics are no more and no less dexterous than the average person, and no more and no less intelligent than the average person (although my cleric was, admittedly).
I thought an 8 was an average, not dramatically sub par?
I think you mean: Druids are physically normal, look normal, and have a normal personality. Clerics are no more and no less dexterous than the average person, and no more and no less intelligent than the average person (although my cleric was, admittedly).
10.5 is average. 8 is below, 6 is noticably below, and 4 is WTF.
To the best of my Knowledge, nothing has been denied to casters in this thread by Meyer. Things have been shown to be incorrect or undoable. He's shown where things fail to function as intended and question if things are feasible. But he has not outright denied anything to casters to this point (with the possible exception of point-buy over elite array. I'll get to this in a moment). With this in mind, It's really starting to bother me the complaints and suggestions of banning items, and purchased spells, and especially Bo9S.
It's really getting tiring seeing people try to claim casters are superior to non-casters, under the condition that non-casters get no items despite gear being a standard part of the game, they get no access to services provided in the players handbook, they don't have access to a book of melee options and they aren't allowed to multiclass (this ones been more rare on this thread, but I do believe it was mentioned, and it usually comes up). while casters are entitled to full access to all material, including campaign specific, and that any questionable ruling falls in their favour. Casters (not spells) are claimed to be superior to non-caster. prove that. Prove that it's the casters and not the spells (since spells are accessible to anyone) that make them superior.
As to elite array. I realize that it is not ideal for casters, however, as this is a set of scenarios that include, for the most part, only combat encounters. point buy allows you to dump multiple stats, including charisma, which will rarely be needed. Elite array, while not ideal, helps to prevent uneven stat distributions that would abuse this factor. Take archerpwr's 9, 10, 14, 18, 8, 8. While I'm not denying this is a possible spread, it is certainly unlikely (dex is often lauded as an important stat for casters, and dumping wisdom seems pretty uncommon in my experience) and is definatly abusing the nature of the challenge (being combat only). Should "must be able to abuse stat allocation" be added to the criteria of things a caster needs in order to be overpowered?
I have commented one (1) item/service and that is PAO. Not because it helps melee more than it helps casters (it doesn't) but because its so retardedly broken that I could do my very best to make a charecter suck but if I also happened to buy PAO I would win the challenge easilly. You want to talk about a caster/melee imbalance, fine, but don't try to use a broken spell to do it.
The reason I have trouble buying a Bo9S based charecter for a "See look melee are just as good as casters (as long as you don't advance past level 5)" argument is it was an attempt by WoTC to try some of thier 4th ed ideas for how to balance melee. When it was put out a good 50% of people outside the CO boards complained about how they were "giving melee spells" and it was "all just too anime". I'm not saying Bo9S doesn't go a long way to balancing melee vs. caster, especially at very low level. I'm just saying lets see 1 build that doesn't involve either Bo9S or PAO.
Pick any book you want excluded and I'll make a build that doesn't include that book if it makes you feel better. I probably won't use the retarded idea of an elite array though. Tip to OP, when trying to prove a point avoid even the appearance of bias.
10.5 is average. 8 is below, 6 is noticably below, and 4 is WTF.
I meant in terms of DND, not in terms of average roll. My player's handbook is trapped in a friends room, but I swear there was a page that illustrate each score on charts, with 8 being "average human", and then creatures with strength scores scaling up?
To the best of my Knowledge, nothing has been denied to casters in this thread by Meyer.
Except psionics, incarnum, and pact magic.
Honestly, if alternative systems of magic aren't allowed, why is an alternative system of melee allowed?
Also, was the Artificer permitted? I forgot.
I meant in terms of DND, not in terms of average roll. My player's handbook is trapped in a friends room, but I swear there was a page that illustrate each score on charts, with 8 being "average human", and then creatures with strength scores scaling up?
I remember seeing it mentioned that a point of intelligence is roughly equivalent to 10 IQ points, so 10 is average, 14 is the low end of genius, and 6 is roughly Forrest Gump. The other ability scores, I believe, are set along about the same scale.
I don't know what happens if you corner it, but I don't know if you hold the holy symbol in an authorative fashion while bashing its brains in.
This is how a failed dominate will kill you:
Vampire: It is obvious that your diety has blessed you with his power. I yield and would like to hear more about your diety (beliefs).
You: Um... ok. (not against beliefs, not self-destructive)
(time elapses, your balor's nimbus expires, etc)
Vampire: There is no need to recast those spells, you are with friends, there is nothing here that can harm you. I am intrigued, tell me more.
(time elapses, all your buffs fall off).
Vampire: DIE!!!! (possible CQG, depending).
He is, after all, "Patient as death"
Alternately, the vamp could just wait until the cleric starved to death!
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
If your not holding it, you do not get the protection. Even with the ambiguity of the last part, you still must have it in hand.
I meant in terms of DND, not in terms of average roll. My player's handbook is trapped in a friends room, but I swear there was a page that illustrate each score on charts, with 8 being "average human", and then creatures with strength scores scaling up?
At least average charisma is ten. Both with men and wolverines, if you believe it.
@Kratch: I've got no problem with ToB, but using spell trigger items (casting a spell) and claiming not to be a spell caster kinda seems self-defeating. As for elite array, it hurts melee too (nobody is optimized with a 15 in the primary stat). 16 is much better IMO. 25 pb would be more fair (elite array is an NPC tool).
But the UMD skill exists to allow non-casters use some spells (notice UMD is not really useful for many spells due to low DC and lack of much metamagic possibilities). To deny the use of UMD seriously weakens classes like rogue or warlock.
Also, was the Artificer permitted? I forgot.
The funny thing is that the artificer is not a spellcaster, he is, actually, the ultimate user/abuser of magical items.
The druid with fleshraker animal companion and venomfire makes all the melee builds look pretty junky. I'm guessing thats why it was ignored.
I don't really want to go to the effort of working out the entire build but the one posted is still stupidly strong if you remove warbeast from the companion and the barding from the druid.
It could be improved by taking a couple of flaws/traits for free feats too.
Edit: Also I would like to see a melee build that doesn't include Bo9S or PAO. Yes, as per the rules the op they are valid but Bo9S is basically spells for melee, and PAO is just dumb.
If you are referring to the druid by ChatNoir, take a look at the first post, which has a link to that druid. It mentions 3-4 reasons why it is not ready to compete.
If you would like, quote his build for a starting point, then just rearrange some things (cash spent, spells memorized, etc) this way, it takes minimum effort for you. But as it is, it is not a legitimate build. So it cannot compete.
Re: Bo9S. Half (or more than half) of the maneuvers in the books are not even supernatural abilities and function in anti-magic zones. Also, here on the char ops board (from what I have read), ToB is very very hard to break and is touted as one of the more balanced books out there.
Re: PaO is dumb: I agree, but casters used Alter Self for the win, so noncasters retaliated, to show the brokenness of the spell chain. (PaO / Polymorph / Alter Self).
I would like to see more noncaster builds making it through ...
I think RP tends to go out the window when you're optimizing.
Also, the dungeon should be made after the characters by someone who will be neutral in its design. I don't think any character should be able to see the dungeon before entering it (so no meta-gaming). Maybe a description of the end boss could be provided or perhaps no information at all. You could do it encounter by encounter and see how every character takes on each encounter before they even know the next one. The hard part is the dungeon designer is basically a DM and shouldn't even tell people that the monster is a wight for instance unless he can make the check for it (knowledges good for something?). The hard part is doing all these encounters. Again, it would take a lot of time but it's a lot more thorough.
Also, I think one of the big problems here is that some people are just better players/optimizers.
My character was posted in response to the CR2 dungeon. CR3-5 were posted, with no changes, my character participated.
The druid from the CR2 dungeon has not attempted the CR5 dungeon.
The alternate CR5 and both CR6 dungeons were posted after all current contestants were posted. This would be what you are looking for, however, with the exception of the DMM Cleric and myself, no participant has attempted any of the alternate dungeons.
Note: I ask people if they are using meta-gaming knowledge, as they do not make knowledge checks (and some do not even have access to knowledge checks (no ranks))
Any caster build that does not rely upon obviously broken magic items or spells to win, but uses mixtures of feats, class abilities and domain abilities to win.
This would disqualify anyone who used alter-self/polymorph any object for an automatic win, as well as future builds that have too heavy a reliance upon abilities generated from money. These builds are demonstrating that money is broken. What we should now focus on is if casters are also broken.
I commented about this idea already and asked people who have already entered with Alter Self builds, if they would agree to this change in rules, which would disqualify their existing builds. No caster has responded "Yes, please disqualify my build". Until/unless they do, I think it underhanded to change the rules afterwards to disallow some participants.
Now, keep in mind, I would LIKE to see this happen (and have asked for permission to implement this) as using PAO for the win is not a build, it is a spell (note that PAO Man is not on the page one, even though all it takes is one poster (other than the team who worked on builds together) to say that they think it to be legitimate. If this occurs, there will be a PAO commoner who will (probably) outperform the caster (due entirely to PAO/equipment).
Basically, we allow them into the competition, but discount them (i.e. put them into their own winner's circle).
To the best of my Knowledge, nothing has been denied to casters in this thread by Meyer.
Correction: Both casters and noncasters are denied non-wotc books as well as dragon magazines.
Things have been shown to be incorrect or undoable. He's shown where things fail to function as intended and question if things are feasible. But he has not outright denied anything to casters to this point (with the possible exception of point-buy over elite array. I'll get to this in a moment).
And LA, aging, and noncaster classes.
With this in mind, It's really starting to bother me the complaints and suggestions of banning items, and purchased spells, and especially Bo9S.
I agree that I would like to see certain things banned (otherworldly/alter self, otherworldly/PaO) but out of fairness, without consensus, I cannot.
The reason I have trouble buying a Bo9S based charecter for a "See look melee are just as good as casters (as long as you don't advance past level 5)" argument is it was an attempt by WoTC to try some of thier 4th ed ideas for how to balance melee. When it was put out a good 50% of people outside the CO boards complained about how they were "giving melee spells" and it was "all just too anime". I'm not saying Bo9S doesn't go a long way to balancing melee vs. caster, especially at very low level. I'm just saying lets see 1 build that doesn't involve either Bo9S or PAO.
Remember, the level 5 cap is artificial and will really soon be lifted. We are trying to find the breakpoint whereby casters overpower noncasters.
I probably won't use the retarded idea of an elite array though. Tip to OP, when trying to prove a point avoid even the appearance of bias.
It is impossible to avoid the appearance of bias.
If I ban ToB (a noncaster resource) I am favoring casters.
If I include ToB (a noncaster resource), I am favoring noncasters.
If I allow aging, I am favoring casters.
If I disallow aging, I am favoring noncasters.
etc.
I meant in terms of DND, not in terms of average roll. My player's handbook is trapped in a friends room, but I swear there was a page that illustrate each score on charts, with 8 being "average human", and then creatures with strength scores scaling up?
A score of 8 has a penalty of -1.
Something with a penalty is not average.
Except psionics, incarnum, and pact magic.
Honestly, if alternative systems of magic aren't allowed, why is an alternative system of melee allowed?
Also, was the Artificer permitted? I forgot.
Actually, psionics are not allowed because I didn't want to get into a discussion of "Is Psionics overpowered". One thing at a time. But to answer the quesion you asked with another question. What is the caster level of a 5th level psion. If you answer 0, then it is a noncaster, if you answer 5 you are confusing manifester level with caster level. But to call a psion a noncaster and allow it into the noncaster's camp seems wrong so it would have to be house-ruled as a caster. Again, the main reason was to help focus the discussion. The top 4 classes per board consensus are cleric/druid/wizard/sorcerer (not psion), so restricting psionics did not seem to be slanting things at all.
Nothing was said about "Magic of Incarnum" or "Tome of Magic" (binders, etc) So as it stands, they are allowed (I would need help with judging the legality of those systems, as I am not familiar with them).
The artificer is allowed -- and would participate as a caster. However, without action points and foreknowledge, the power level of an artificer is less than what people might think.
The top 4 classes per board consensus are cleric/druid/wizard/sorcerer (not psion), so restricting psionics did not seem to be slanting things at all.
Most of the time, I've seen the top five as Artificer, Archivist, Wizard, Druid, and Cleric (with the bottom three somewhat debatable), and Psion slightly behind them and ahead of Sorcerer. Take from that what you will.
It is impossible to avoid the appearance of bias.
If I ban ToB (a noncaster resource) I am favoring casters.
If I include ToB (a noncaster resource), I am favoring noncasters.
If I allow aging, I am favoring casters.
If I disallow aging, I am favoring noncasters.
etc.
Actually, all you need to do is maintain a level of consistency. If you allow everything in the rules for martial characters (which you should), you should allow everything in the rules for non-martial characters (which you also should). The less restrictive the rules are, the easier it is not to be biased.
If I were following that advice, that means I would follow an agenda of maximum flexibility, which would mean all WOTC sources (including Tome of Battle), all legal maneuvers (such as aging), maximum character control (with point buy, though this doesn't make that much of a difference in the long run: there just isn't a good reason that I see not to), maximum choice in race (no LA benefits casters, because most casters wouldn't even consider loosing a caster level) etc. . I might have drawn the line to not include Unearthed Arcana, because the average player can't depend on it, but as long as we have it would be a pain to retroactively disallow it.
The only restrictions I would put in place were extremely lenient external conditions, e.g. you can't buy an item more expensive than 1/3 your wealth, the highest level NPC caster you can find is tenth level, etc (though I would allow scrolls at any level). The tighter the restrictions, the weaker the argument though, since if point buy really made enough of a difference that casters would become overpowered if only that it was allowed, then you've only proved that elite array casters aren't overpowered.
Remember, the level 5 cap is artificial and will really soon be lifted. We are trying to find the breakpoint whereby casters overpower noncasters.
It is impossible to avoid the appearance of bias.
If I ban ToB (a noncaster resource) I am favoring casters.
If I include ToB (a noncaster resource), I am favoring noncasters.
If I allow aging, I am favoring casters.
If I disallow aging, I am favoring noncasters.
etc.
I was also referring to the way you have discussed results in the past. Its blatantly obvious from the first post on which theory you support.
So far there have been no melee characters that do not use ToB. The problem with this means that instead of your hypothesis being "non-casters are as strong as casters at level 5". Your hypothesis is "Martial adepts are as powerful as casters at level 5". Even if you proved 100% that the second was true the first is completely untested. I would say it 100% proves the point that casters are stronger even at very low levels if melee can be made completely ineffective by the exclusion of a single book while even a core + 2 book caster is a powerhouse.
Disallowing aging is a pretty blantant knock on casters. Not all or even that many would chose aging but the combination of a 15 max stat, no races that boost casting stats (la 0) and no aging artificially restricts the save DC of a casters spells. The difference between a dc 16 save or suck and a dc 20 save or suck is pretty signifigant.
If you are referring to the druid by ChatNoir, take a look at the first post, which has a link to that druid. It mentions 3-4 reasons why it is not ready to compete.
If you would like, quote his build for a starting point, then just rearrange some things (cash spent, spells memorized, etc) this way, it takes minimum effort for you. But as it is, it is not a legitimate build. So it cannot compete.
Re: Bo9S. Half (or more than half) of the maneuvers in the books are not even supernatural abilities and function in anti-magic zones. Also, here on the char ops board (from what I have read), ToB is very very hard to break and is touted as one of the more balanced books out there.
Re: PaO is dumb: I agree, but casters used Alter Self for the win, so noncasters retaliated, to show the brokenness of the spell chain. (PaO / Polymorph / Alter Self).
I would like to see more noncaster builds making it through ...
There are a few things wrong with it but it could easilly be used as is. The metal armor is 100% allowable if he worships Mieliki or whatever dumb Faerun god that is. The template is easilly factored out and then if I remeber right its correct.
I am well aware that at least half of the Bo9S stuff works in an amf. You can't possibly deny that the writeups are nearly 100% in the spell format and follow many of the same sorts of guidelines. They are very similar to spells other than the fact they have a different mechanism for casting. I would call it more of an alternate casting system than an alternate melee system as there is no real change in the melee mechanics.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the Bo9S stuff is some of the most balanced stuff around. When people do say that they are talking about it helping to narrow the gap between fighting types and caster types. If you use that as the basis for your argument you have already lost.
RE: PAO vs. Alter Self. If you can't see the massive difference between casting a spell that you can use multiple times a day vs. paying a wad of cash to have the strongest mage in the land cast a spell on you then I'm not sure discussion is really possible. One dispell magic and the non-melee is out 1200g and permantly back in thier origional form. A dispell magic will change a caster back into his normal form too but at best that will last until the next day, it may only last until the next round. Note that PAO is not instantaneous it has a duration.
I was also referring to the way you have discussed results in the past. Its blatantly obvious from the first post on which theory you support.
Hopefully it is blatantly obvious which theory I support ... I say it in the first sentence of the first line.
So far there have been no melee characters that do not use ToB.
Based on the list of noncasters shown on the first post, there are 2 noncasters who do not use ToB (Fighter and Rogue). So I would have to say the above sentence I bolded is incorrect.
The problem with this means that instead of your hypothesis being "non-casters are as strong as casters at level 5". Your hypothesis is "Martial adepts are as powerful as casters at level 5". Even if you proved 100% that the second was true the first is completely untested. I would say it 100% proves the point that casters are stronger even at very low levels if melee can be made completely ineffective by the exclusion of a single book while even a core + 2 book caster is a powerhouse.
Um ... it is also true to say that there are no "Knight" builds, no "Swashbuckler" builds, no "Monk" builds, etc. I don't see the problem with that though (I mean, it would be cool to see some more noncasters). If the contention is that spellcasters own every game at every level, showing builds that compete (or surpass) the casters is showing that to not be true. Additionally, as I have said many times. If including one level of a martial adept class in a 5th level build is enough to bridge, eliminate, or surpass the gap in power, then that means that either the gap was not really there to begin with, or ToB is really really really powerful.
Disallowing aging is a pretty blantant knock on casters. Not all or even that many would chose aging but the combination of a 15 max stat, no races that boost casting stats (la 0) and no aging artificially restricts the save DC of a casters spells. The difference between a dc 16 save or suck and a dc 20 save or suck is pretty signifigant.
People are not using save or suck (for the most part) in this competition. But, you have a point. Lets change the rules to make things better for casters.
Casters ... check the changes to the rules on page 1, post 1 ... you can now post aged characters and use point buy. I hope this means that more overpowered casters will start running through multiple of these mini-adventures.
[rant]Also ... let me know if I need to restrict the armor/weapons that noncasters are allowed to use.[/rant]
There are a few things wrong with it but it could easilly be used as is. The metal armor is 100% allowable if he worships Mieliki or whatever dumb Faerun god that is. The template is easilly factored out and then if I remeber right its correct.
A traditional druid cannot wear that. The poster said it was a mistake. He has not gone back to fix this (either by saying he can wear metal or replacing it with the non-metallic armor that was suggested to him).
There was more wrong with that, and I am not interested in going over a build, correcting mistakes, and then coming up with new tactics. If it succeeds, I prove it is on-par with a noncaster. If it fails, casters point to my bias as to why it fails.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the Bo9S stuff is some of the most balanced stuff around. When people do say that they are talking about it helping to narrow the gap between fighting types and caster types. If you use that as the basis for your argument you have already lost.
How so? A noncaster resource that has been around for over a year that helps "narrow the gap" is legit. If it actually does narrow (or eliminate) the gap, then my argument is proven to be correct. Remember, my argument is not about any one class being more powerful than any other class.
RE: PAO vs. Alter Self. If you can't see the massive difference between casting a spell that you can use multiple times a day vs. paying a wad of cash to have the strongest mage in the land cast a spell on you then I'm not sure discussion is really possible. One dispell magic and the non-melee is out 1200g and permantly back in thier origional form. A dispell magic will change a caster back into his normal form too but at best that will last until the next day, it may only last until the next round. Note that PAO is not instantaneous it has a duration.
PAO: A spell cast by a 15th level caster has a dispel DC of 26. This means that a 5th level caster needs to roll a 21 on the die (excluding any bonuses to dispel checks).
Yes, it cost 1200. Which is the cost of 4 potions of owl's wisdom which the warmage needs to cast alter self (which is dispellable by a 5th level caster far easier).
I was just giving IMO, optimal 25 pb for class X. You can have different scores, but those wouldn't be the generic optimal 25 pb X. I'm just speaking mechanics here. Since we were discussing why elite array is problematic, I thought I'd show how unrealistic it is.
I understand. I just think that the examples you gave are also unrealistic.
I fail to see how a 15 is not optimal, but 2-3 below average scores are.
Attractiveness=/=charisma. It's a part, but not a necessary part. A wallflower can be hot, but no one will notice them despite that. This is intricately tied to a low will, or wisdom score, because of the intercorrelation between these two styles. So, you can easily roleplay a bookish wallflower, and get rid of the ugly. Weak I agree with, but you don't roleplay weak beyond mechanics anyway. Alternatively, you could make someone so hideous with a decent personality for low charisma.
What I said is backed up by the PHB. There is really no arguing it. Among other things, charisma determines your strength of personality and your physical attractiveness. If you don't want to call it ugly, so be it. But the fact is that a character with a charisma of 8 is less physically attractive than the average person.
Maybe you'd like to play someone that is good looking, but you can't with an 8 charisma. As far as I'm concerned, a DM could allow someone with a charisma score above average to play a 'hot wallflower', but not someone with a charisma score below 10. In fact, perhaps that would best describe an average charisma score, some positive and some negative traits associated with charisma.
Roleplay options are fairly opennended as to how you get the end result. Well, mental stats are, anyway.
Roleplaying and mechanics go hand in hand, yes. But just because I'm a smooth mofo in real life doesn't mean I can play my 8 charisma fighter as some suave lady's man.
In this way, negative modifiers can hinder opportunities for you, even mental ones. Generally, a character with below average intelligence won't be coming up with the cunning tactics, or solving riddles or puzzles. A low wisdom character means your aloof, which is a crappy trait to have as an adventurer.
Even skill array can go to some length to change a characters personality image.
Sure, but you still have to roleplay it correctly. A character that is trained at spotting is not necessarily wise, and a character that knows a lot of things is not necessarily a genius.
I thought an 8 was an average, not dramatically sub par?
I think you mean: Druids are physically normal, look normal, and have a normal personality. Clerics are no more and no less dexterous than the average person, and no more and no less intelligent than the average person (although my cleric was, admittedly).
The PHB lists a score of 10 or 11 as average. These scores have a modifier of 0. Anything below that is considered below average and has a negative modifier.
I remember seeing it mentioned that a point of intelligence is roughly equivalent to 10 IQ points, so 10 is average, 14 is the low end of genius, and 6 is roughly Forrest Gump. The other ability scores, I believe, are set along about the same scale.
Actually, Forrest Gump is said to have an IQ of 75 in the movie, which would be a 7.5. Just to give some perspective on what an intelligence of 8 might be like.
What I said is backed up by the PHB. There is really no arguing it. Among other things, charisma determines your strength of personality and your physical attractiveness. If you don't want to call it ugly, so be it. But the fact is that a character with a charisma of 8 is less physically attractive than the average person.
Maybe you'd like to play someone that is good looking, but you can't with an 8 charisma. As far as I'm concerned, a DM could allow someone with a charisma score above average to play a 'hot wallflower', but not someone with a charisma score below 10. In fact, perhaps that would best describe an average charisma score, some positive and some negative traits associated with charisma.
No. Even a negative scoring individual can have some positive traits within the realm of that one stat. However, that higher portion of that stat must be then balanced out by even more dramatic lowering of the other parts of it. For instance, the DMG list of charismatic components can be broken down into a "charisma stat array" which contains force of personality, appearance, so forth. Say you have 3 sub-stats. If the persons overall charisma is an 8, and they have a 12 appearance, it just means that the other factors of personality would have to be even more crippling. So, a 5 force of personality, 7 personal magnatism, 12 appearance, which is an average 8 charisma. This is a perfectly legitimate method of roleplaying a character. Not all parts of a stat need be universally and equally low.
Based on the list of noncasters shown on the first post, there are 2 noncasters who do not use ToB (Fighter and Rogue). So I would have to say the above sentence I bolded is incorrect.
Yes, one that failed to defeat even a single encounter and one that used PAO. Explain to me how that helps your point again?
Um ... it is also true to say that there are no "Knight" builds, no "Swashbuckler" builds, no "Monk" builds, etc. I don't see the problem with that though (I mean, it would be cool to see some more noncasters). If the contention is that spellcasters own every game at every level, showing builds that compete (or surpass) the casters is showing that to not be true. Additionally, as I have said many times. If including one level of a martial adept class in a 5th level build is enough to bridge, eliminate, or surpass the gap in power, then that means that either the gap was not really there to begin with, or ToB is really really really powerful.
That single level gives you abilities that you would be unable to defeat even a single encounter without. So yes, I would say that ToB stuff is really, really, really powerful. Without ToB the Manticore owned you, hell without ToB the swarm in the CR2 list owned you.
People are not using save or suck (for the most part) in this competition. But, you have a point. Lets change the rules to make things better for casters.
QUOTE]
Since you are claiming that using spells from items or having other people cast spells for you is valid then most of what differentiates a non-caster spell from a caster spell is the DC.
Once again: Either post a build that doesn't use ToB or change your premise to "Martial adepts at level 5 can equal casters at level 5".
To do otherwise is admitting that 99% of non-casters are grossly inferior even at very low level.
No. Even a negative scoring individual can have some positive traits within the realm of that one stat. However, that higher portion of that stat must be then balanced out by even more dramatic lowering of the other parts of it. For instance, the DMG list of charismatic components can be broken down into a "charisma stat array" which contains force of personality, appearance, so forth. Say you have 3 sub-stats. If the persons overall charisma is an 8, and they have a 12 appearance, it just means that the other factors of personality would have to be even more crippling. So, a 5 force of personality, 7 personal magnatism, 12 appearance, which is an average 8 charisma. This is a perfectly legitimate method of roleplaying a character. Not all parts of a stat need be universally and equally low.
Again, my position is right out of the book. An ability score represents various aspects of your character, and having an ability score below average means those various aspects of your character represented by said ability score are below average.
Your opinion goes beyond what the book says. And while I don't think it's a bad idea, and I actually quite like it, it's obviously a bit more complicated than what the book tells us.
Again, my position is right out of the book. An ability score represents various aspects of your character, and having an ability score below average means those various aspects of your character represented by said ability score are below average.
Your opinion goes beyond what the book says. And while I don't think it's a bad idea, and I actually quite like it, it's obviously a bit more complicated than what the book tells us.
It's more complex, and they don't explicitly say it, but they do use it. Mindflayers, for instance, are absolutely hideous, but they have a high charisma score. They make up for their poor appearance with their insane force of personality. Other things may be going the other way around on it, but it's not like wizards doesn't assume that stats can have uneven distributions within themselves.
So yes, right out of the book, a stat represents characteristics, but that does not mean that they don't imply that there should be variation within a stat, because they do. So, the example of the character I gave in my last post, roleplayed out, would be roleplayed as a negative charisma character, despite the higher appearance score, and this is fine according to the PHB, as it does not say that all factors must be universally low, and they go a long way to imply that they should not all be identical.
This is different than not having the minimum ability score needed, but playing as if you did.
The Mind Flayer example would fit in with what I said originally. If the player has a high ability score, then the option can exist to downplay it. The player had the option to be very attractive, but opted not to.
This is different than not having the minimum ability score needed, but playing as if you did.
Where does the PHB indicate that?
Also, the MM elf warrior is fairly attractive, and has a charisma of 8.
Teifling is even lower, with a 6.
(no LA benefits casters, because most casters wouldn't even consider loosing a caster level)
White Dragonspawn Sorcerer?
I'd almost consider Feral Cleric 4 as well...but 3rd level spells are too awesome.
Just saying.
The PHB lists a score of 10 or 11 as average. These scores have a modifier of 0. Anything below that is considered below average and has a negative modifier.
Yeah, I'm not quite certain why I thought it was otherwise. It isn't really highly relevant.
Just of curiosity, Meyers; A Standard Strand of Prayer Beads costs 25,800 gp, and comes with a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting.
I can reduce that by removing the bead of healing for –9,000 gp, and the bead of smiting for –16,800 gp. Therefore, I can buy a reduced to bead of Karma, Standard Strand of Prayer beads for 0 gp, correct? Or, even better, I can remove the bead of Karma and keep the bead of healing, at a nice, cheesy price of -11000 gold.
I'd like a fair "Rules as Written" interpretation of this yet-errata'ed, clearly a typo, but oh so easily abusable within the clearly written rules.
Yes, one that failed to defeat even a single encounter and one that used PAO. Explain to me how that helps your point again?
You say "There are no non-ToB entries"
I say "Yes there are"
You say "But they don't count because of this ..."
I really don't understand what you are asking.
That single level gives you abilities that you would be unable to defeat even a single encounter without. So yes, I would say that ToB stuff is really, really, really powerful. Without ToB the Manticore owned you, hell without ToB the swarm in the CR2 list owned you.
The swarm is in CR3, not CR2, but talking about the swarm:
The druid w/ fleshraker is unable to defeat it as posted.
The enchanter is unable to defeat it as posted (unless I missed something)
The cloistered cleric is unable to defeat it as posted (unless I missed something)
The illusionist is unable to defeat it.
So would you say that ToB is more powerful than casters? As the one level puts me in the running of being more powerful than casters, just imagine if I took two or more levels in it
Now, your statement that I couldn't defeat encounters without my level of warblade ... lets examine that shall we?
My build is rogue (feat variant) 2, fighter 1, barbarian 1, warblade 1.
I use evasion vs the dragon (and other AoE effects), spiked chain-ly goodness (combat reflexes, EWP spiked chain), power attack, improved initiative. I can pounce and rage. And I have Martial Maneuvers/stances.
No reach=no trip/extra attacks, I lose to lots of things that kill me if they can connect.
No power attack = i lose to many encounters
No Improved initiative = they get more attacks on me = i lose more
no pounce = no ability to get 2-3 hits on them before they connect with me.
Remove any one thing from my build, and it falls apart.
So, although it is true that this build needs warblade to compete, it also needs every other class it has (like the fighter).
Since you are claiming that using spells from items or having other people cast spells for you is valid then most of what differentiates a non-caster spell from a caster spell is the DC.
Kinda. If you have been following this thread, that has been the point that was made. The explosive runes build is not something that a noncaster can duplicate. The DCs/etc are not able to be duplicated by a non-caster.
(note: this is an extreme statement to try to illustrate a point). If a wand of cure light wounds used by a ranger/paladin can replace a cleric, then yes, items are able to replace a spellcaster.
Once again: Either post a build that doesn't use ToB or change your premise to "Martial adepts at level 5 can equal casters at level 5".
To do otherwise is admitting that 99% of non-casters are grossly inferior even at very low level.
Um, the elf was posted ... it is non-ToB. Please, be more specific with what you would like.
And btw, in this thread, I am looking for and, for the most part, failing to find overpowered spellcasters. In the sister thread to this, my premise is "Debunking the myth of overpowered spellcasters".
Lastly, why does the use or lack of use of ToB matter?
Caster vs NonCaster.
Casters cast spells, noncasters do not.
Saying that it would be correct to state my premise as "Martial adepts at level 5 can equal casters at level 5" is the same as saying "Casters are only overpowered if ToB is banned' or "Casters are only overpowered if you exclude certain non-casters" or "In order for casters to be overpowered, you need to exclude certain noncaster classes"
In the end, what does it matter? ToB has been out for over a year. Does this mean that spellcasters lost their edge over a year ago? And if so, its a good thing that there are people around to point that out.
The druid w/ fleshraker is unable to defeat it as posted.
The enchanter is unable to defeat it as posted (unless I missed something)
The cloistered cleric is unable to defeat it as posted (unless I missed something)
The illusionist is unable to defeat it.
Illusionist could fascinate them fairly readily as written. They also are not listed as immune to entangle, which the illusionist could use.
Kaermet DeFraugShow
General Tactics: Sanctum spell+pearls, invisibility, summoning, Neraph+Alterself=Dwarven Ancestor, Powerword pain, sudden maximize shivering touch.
All wealth will be used to craft 14 level one pearl of powers and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5 on concentration checks), and to buy a belt of healing to heal when necessary. Spellcasters don't have the endurance to solo 5 encounters if they do damage by spells normally, so endurance is the hardest part of this.
Spells Prepared
0-
1- Orb of acid (lesser), Power Word pain x2, Orb of fire (lesser), true strike
2- Sanctumed Web, Sanctumed Invisibility, Sanctumed False life, Sanctumed Alter Self
3-Shivering Touch, Summon Monster 3 x2.
My home is far away, so all my sanctumed spells will be poor pathetic level 1 spells. Poor pathetic level one spells that, due to the wording of Pearl of Power, can be recalled with any of my 14 level one pearl of powers.
Threshold is 60% for me, 40% for monsters +100% for every success.
Illusionist could fascinate them fairly readily as written. They also are not listed as immune to entangle, which the illusionist could use.
Fascinate is mind influencing, which they are immune to.
How does entangle defeat them? It just annoys them and eventually they escape.
Disallowing aging is a pretty blantant knock on casters. Not all or even that many would chose aging but the combination of a 15 max stat, no races that boost casting stats (la 0) and no aging artificially restricts the save DC of a casters spells. The difference between a dc 16 save or suck and a dc 20 save or suck is pretty signifigant.
It's not actually true that there are no races that boost casting ability scores at +0 LA. There are a couple of Elven subraces, the Lesser Planetouched, and the Buommon if you want to deal with them.
I might roll a 1 vs the dragon, but with true strike, anything else will work. A 5% chance of failure is acceptable.
I have two energy orbs memorized, so I expend both of them.
The second power word pain was not memorized assuming I had a good idea of the relative difficulty of the dungeon. Remember, being invisible means I can pause before the fight and refresh spells if I think I need to.
Forgot about the Dwarven ancestors movement rates. I might be able to rework it otherwise, but dismissing alter self lets me kite the rug and snake, so doing that should work.
Why are you casting alter self (dwarven ancestor) walking towards the cave, then immediately dismissing it after you enter (i.e. to have it up for encounter 1, but not for encounter 2+) Is this normal tactics, or is it metagaming?I might roll a 1 vs the dragon, but with true strike, anything else will work. A 5% chance of failure is acceptable.
I have two energy orbs memorized, so I expend both of them.
Ah, I forgot about the true-strike,
But your spell list is
Spells Prepared
0-
1- Orb of acid (lesser), Power Word pain x2, Orb of fire (lesser), true strike
2- Sanctumed Web, Sanctumed Invisibility, Sanctumed False life, Sanctumed Alter Self
3-Shivering Touch, Summon Monster 3 x2.
Which is 1 orb, not 2.
The second power word pain was not memorized assuming I had a good idea of the relative difficulty of the dungeon. Remember, being invisible means I can pause before the fight and refresh spells if I think I need to.
I was talking about refreshing, not rememorizing.
Just of curiosity, Meyers; A Standard Strand of Prayer Beads costs 25,800 gp, and comes with a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting.
I can reduce that by removing the bead of healing for –9,000 gp, and the bead of smiting for –16,800 gp. Therefore, I can buy a reduced to bead of Karma, Standard Strand of Prayer beads for 0 gp, correct? Or, even better, I can remove the bead of Karma and keep the bead of healing, at a nice, cheesy price of -11000 gold.
I'd like a fair "Rules as Written" interpretation of this yet-errata'ed, clearly a typo, but oh so easily abusable within the clearly written rules.
What would you like me to say?
That any character can have infinite wealth by having an arbitrarily large quantity of the -11000 gold prayer beads?
That any character can have infinite healing, from an arbitrarily large amount of beads of healing?
or, lets not use this "clearly a typo" thing.
I understand. I just think that the examples you gave are also unrealistic.
I fail to see how a 15 is not optimal, but 2-3 below average scores are.
Well, the secondary scores could be debated. The end result would usually be 16 primary stat, 14 con, and the other 9 points spread to taste. You could use 16, 14, 13, 10, 10, 8. The secondary scores are pretty flexible though.
What would you like me to say?
That any character can have infinite wealth by having an arbitrarily large quantity of the -11000 gold prayer beads?
That any character can have infinite healing, from an arbitrarily large amount of beads of healing?
or, lets not use this "clearly a typo" thing.
This has been errated ages ago. The item costs 45,800 gp, not 25,800.
Where does the PHB indicate that?
It doesn't. I was stating that I, as a DM, would allow a player to downplay his ability scores if he so wished.
Also, the MM elf warrior is fairly attractive, and has a charisma of 8.
Teifling is even lower, with a 6.
Well, you are free to consider that an implication of your point. I don't.
Unless, instead of saying 'Give me an elven warrior', the artist was told 'Ok, this elf has Strength X, Dexterity X, and Charisma X. I want you to make sure those ability scores come through in your art.'
Regardless, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree
. This is off-topic anyways.This has been errated ages ago. The item costs 45,800 gp, not 25,800.
Maybe it was clarified by CustServ or something, but it doesn't appear to have made it into the DMG errata file.
Druid 5
Str 10
Dex 8
Con 15 (+1 level)
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 13
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Multiattack
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Survival (wis) 8
Spells:
1
Magic Fang x 2
Speak with Animals
Cure light wounds
2
Cat's grace
Bear's endurance
Bull's strength
3
Venomfire
Wildshaped stats
Hp: 46
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Armor:27 flatfoot 21 touch 16
Attack: 2 claw +9 (1d6 + 5 + poison + 5d6acid), bite +7 (1d6) + tail + 7(1d6 + poison + 5d6 acid)
Special attacks: Leaping pounce, rake
Special Qualities:
Saves:
Abilities: 21,23,19,12,14,13
=============================================
Pouncy the Wonderlizard
HD 6d8
Init +5
Speed 50
Armor class +8 natural
Attack: 2 claws (1d6 + poison) + bite (1d6) + tail (1d6 + poison)
Space/reach: 5/5
Special attacks: leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+str
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: 6/8/3
Abilities 18, 20, 15, 2, 14, 12
Skills: hide +12, jump +24
Feats: INA(Claw), Track, Imp. Trip
Leaping pounce(ex): When charging it can pounce, makes full attack including rake, if it hits a target its size or smaller it can make a free trip, if it makes the trip it can make a free grapple with no aoo. If the grapple check is successfull the creature is grappled and pinned, fleshraker deals automatic claw and **** damage vs pinned opponent. If the fleshraker fails the opposed trip it cannot be tripped in return. If it trips but fails the grapple the opponent is prone but not pinned or grappled.
Poison (ex) Injury dc 12+con damage 1d6dex/1d6dex.
Share spells: Druid can have any spell cast on himself also affect companion.
Evasion: No damage on ref save
Buffed stats of note
Hd: 6d8 + 24 (48hp)
Ac: 30 (8 natural, 4 armor, 7 dex) touch 17 flat footed 22
Init: + 7
Speed: 50
Attributes: 22, 24, 19, 2, 14, 12
Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6 + 7 + poison), Bite +6 melee (1d6 +3), Tail +6 melee (1d6 +3 + poison)
Special attacks: Poison(Dc 17, 1d6dex/1d6dex +5d6 acid), rake 1d6 +2, rend 2d6 + 8
Saves: 9, 12, 4
================
Strategy
vs Manticore
My spot is +10 and my hide is +16 the manticore has a +9 spot and +1 hide. I think its safe to assume we see it first.
We sneak to within 30 feet and pounce, first the druid then the dino.
Druid attacks
Claw (+9 hit vs 15ac) 75/50 to hit.
75, hit damage 8 physical 17acid (poison dc 16 vs 9 fort 35% saves)
150/150, hit damage 8 physical, 17 acid (poison 3 dex damage)
Bite 215/250 (+7 vs 15ac) miss
Tail 270/250 (+7 vs 15ac) hit 5 physical, 17 acid save vs poison
total damage: 72 Manticore very dead.
Alternative strategies:
Have one dino attract attention then charge from 30 feet with the other when manticore engages
Use Wild Empathy.
Vs Snake
Snakes hide skill is +10, my spot is +10. At worst Pouncy detects the snake from 30 feet away with scent.
Initiative Snake +3 Druid +7 Druid wins, (60/50)
Pouncy does a leaping charge at the snake.
Snake gets aoo (+13 vs ac 30) 15% sucess rate, miss.
Poucy claw (+13 vs ac 15) 90/50 success, hits for 10 physical damage + 17 acid, fort save vs poison (dc 17 vs 8fort, 40% fail 40/50) saved.
Pouncy claw 2 (+13 vs ac 15) 180/150 hits for 10 physical 17 acid fort save fails, 3 dex damage (80/150)
Pouncy bite, (+8 vs ac 15 70% success) 250/250 damage 6 physical
Pouncy rake, (+8 vs ac 15) 320/350 miss
Pouncy tail (+8 vs ac15) 390/350 hit 6 physical, 17 acid, poison saved (120/150)
Total damage 32 physical, 51 acid. Snake is dead.
Alternative strategies:
Use Wild Empathy.
vs Wraith
Init +7 vs + 7 (110/150) wraith wins
Approaches druid attempts touch (+5 vs 17 touch ac, 40/50) Miss
Poucy pounces on wraith - Only claws are valid weapons.
Claw +13 ac 15 90/50 miss to incorp
claw +13 ac 15 180/150 hit 10 phys, 17 acid
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
Claw +9 vs ac 15 150/150 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
Wraith has taken 53 damage and dies.
vs Rug
OMG Supprise
init +7 vs -1 200/150 druid wins
Rug attempts grapple +6 vs ac 10(flat footed touch) 85/50 hit attempts grapple (+19 vs +12 85/50) grappled.
Pouncy pounces on the rug.
Claw +13 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Claw +13 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Bite +8 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 6 phys
Rake +8 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 6 phys
Tail +8 vs ac 13 430/450 miss
Total damage:
Rug - 66
Druid
Grapple (+12 v +19) 15/50 failed
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage.
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +11 v 13 525/450 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Claw +11 v 13 620/550 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Bite +6 v 13 690/650 hit 6 phys
Rake +6 v 13 760/750 hit 6 phys
Tail +6 v 13 830/850 miss
Total damage:
Druid - 14
Rug - 132 (dead)
vs Dragon
No trying to be sneaky, though the pair could probably get supprise.
Init +7 v +0 285/250 Druid wins
Pouncy pounces.
Claw +13 v 19 ac 75/50 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 65/50 pass)
Claw +13 v 19 ac 150/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 130/150, 3 dex damage)
Bite +9 v 17 ac 215/250 miss
Rake +9 v 17 ac 280/250 6 phys
Tail +9 v 17 ac 345/350 miss
Trip +6 v + 6 (15 str + 4 for 4 legs) 50/50 tripped.
Grapple +13 v 12 dragon is grappled and is now pinned and helpless beneath Pouncy.
Total Damage:
Dragon - 60
Option A) Druid negotiates and allows the dragon to live.
Option B) Druid pounces on the helpless dragon for stupid damage and joins the pin. If the dragon had 500 hp, it would still be eaten without getting an action off. Note being pinned denies it even its breath weapon.
Total Resources expended:
1 3rd level spell
3 2nd level spells
1 first level spell
Equipement used:
Total gold spent 2200.
Barding (not really needed but the origional post included it).
He should have some poison cure, minor restoration etc scrolls on him. If I use IHSAMPTYECM again I'll work on gear, it just wasn't needed for so easy a set of monsters.
I didn't end up using Girralon arms because I'm not sure the added arms would be poisonous and it was completely not important.
During the entire cave IHSAMPTYECM took 14 points of damage, once the dragon is dead he resumes human form and heals himself for 9.
Now IHSAMPTYECM is level 6 with Natural Spell. Pouncy gains another 2hd and some stats and ac.
That any character can have infinite healing, from an arbitrarily large amount of beads of healing?
+4 caster level could also find good use in that build.
I'm good with that, given that a character has to use divine magic to know that the beads are magical...:D
I'm just pointing out another place where the rules give an edge to characters with spell casting. Not saying it is nice, but it is suitably by the book.
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 8
Feats
(Flaw)Spell Focus (Conj)
(Flaw)Augment Summoning
(Human)Greenbound Summoning
1 Beckon the Frozen
3 Ashbound Summoning
Flaws
Murky-Eyed
Pathetic (Str)
Spells:
1 - 4
2x Cure light wounds
Produce Flame
Magic Fang
2 - 3
3 - 2
Primal Form
Skills
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Survival (wis) 8
Example Summoned Creature Stats:
SNA1
Greenbound Wolf (Plant)
HD: 2d8 + 12 (20 hp)
Init: +3
Speed: 50ft
Ac: 21 (+3 dex, +8 natural) touch 13, Flatfoot 18
Base attack/grapple: +1/+
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d6 +6 +1d6 cold) or Slam
Special Qualities: Trip, DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 23, 17, 23, 2, 12, 10
SNA2
Greenbound Dire Bat
Hd 4d8 + 28 (46)
Init: +7
Speed: 20 Fly 40 (Good)
AC: 28 (+11 natural + 7 dex) Flatfoot 21, Touch 17
Attack Bite +8 melee (d8+ 8 + d6 cold)
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40', DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 27, 24, 25, 2, 14, 10
SNA3
Greenbound Lion (Plant)
Hd 5d8
Init:
Speed: 40
Ac: 23 (+9 natural +4 dex) Flatfoot 19, Touch 14
Bab/Grapple: 3/17
Attack: 2 claws +16(1d4 + 10 +d6 cold) and bite +16(1d8+ 5 +6d cold)
Special attacks: Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 1d4 +
Special qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 31, 19, 23, 2, 12, 10
Gear:
Pretty much anything.
Tactics:
For all fights summon a monster and then spend the combat avoiding the enemy until the summon kills it. There is basically 0 chance any summon will die with dr 10 and fast healing 3, and 10 rounds should be more than enough for a summon to kill off any of the encounters. Backup plan of summon pins the monster and druid CDG with scythe.
Grizley, keep in mind that a fleshraker can't hit the same critter with its bite and tail in a round. Don't know if that really makes a difference, but it should be observed.
Oops, missed that.
It doesn't really make a difference though. In the first fight the manticore died before the tail. In the second fight the druid hadn't even gone yet, so his full pounce will more than do the 8hp the snake had left. Wraith had no tail attacks to begin with, rug didn't have any tail hits and took well over 132 damage in 2 rounds anyway, even if losing a tail attack made one of the other attacks miss it still died. Dragon is grappled and pinned before it gets an action so its stats are pretty irrelevent (Also tail missed in this fight).
Well, once I've figured out that it only has a 20 foot movement speed (once it starts running towards me), I can figure out that it's safer to dismiss alterself and run rather than stay as a dwarven ancestor. After dismissing it, I had the option of refreshing it from a pearl, but since I was now in the cave itself, I would consider invisibility good enough (despite its shorter duration), and I could refresh it later if I need to.
Ah, I forgot about the true-strike,
But your spell list is
Spells Prepared
0-
1- Orb of acid (lesser), Power Word pain x2, Orb of fire (lesser), true strike
2- Sanctumed Web, Sanctumed Invisibility, Sanctumed False life, Sanctumed Alter Self
3-Shivering Touch, Summon Monster 3 x2.
Which is 1 orb, not 2.
I was talking about refreshing, not rememorizing.
I meant refreshing as well, I misstyped.
If you'll notice, I have both an Orb of fire and an orb of acid memorized. In tactics I used them interchangeably because no one had resistance to either, though I would have of course favored one if a creature had appeared with resistance to one or the other.
Poucy pounces on wraith
No, he doesn't. (Check out its Unnatural Aura (Su).)
AHow so? A noncaster resource that has been around for over a year that helps "narrow the gap" is legit. If it actually does narrow (or eliminate) the gap, then my argument is proven to be correct. Remember, my argument is not about any one class being more powerful than any other class.
Actually, psionics are not allowed because I didn't want to get into a discussion of "Is Psionics overpowered".
So you don't want the "psionics is overpowered" argument, but are fine with the possibility of a "tome of battle is overpowered argument"?
Personally I don't think that either is overpowered, but you should hold the same standard for both sides.
I'll give a generic example of a doorstop like character to show some of the balance.
human
1 feat rogue/2 fighter/1 barbarian
Variants: 1 flaw, Ferocity from the Cityscape web enhancement. <-- You may want to use this one for your character as it is better than the whirling rage.
feats:
flaw 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Human feat: Improved Trip
1st level feat: Improved Disarm
feat rogue feat: Combat Expertize
fighter 2 feat: Combat Reflexes
3rd level feat: Lightning Reflexes
2nd fighter feat: Prone Attack
That is just nasty when used to slow down opponents.
I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class man (IHSAMPTYECM for short)
Druid 5Show
Str 10
Dex 8
Con 15 (+1 level)
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 13
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Multiattack
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Survival (wis) 8
Spells:
1
Magic Fang x 2
Speak with Animals
Cure light wounds
2
Cat's grace
Bear's endurance
Bull's strength
3
Venomfire
Wildshaped stats
Hp: 46
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Armor:27 flatfoot 21 touch 16
Attack: 2 claw +9 (1d6 + 5 + poison + 5d6acid), bite +7 (1d6) + tail + 7(1d6 + poison + 5d6 acid)
Special attacks: Leaping pounce, rake
Special Qualities:
Saves:
Abilities: 21,23,19,12,14,13
=============================================
Pouncy the Wonderlizard
HD 6d8
Init +5
Speed 50
Armor class +8 natural
Attack: 2 claws (1d6 + poison) + bite (1d6) + tail (1d6 + poison)
Space/reach: 5/5
Special attacks: leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+str
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: 6/8/3
Abilities 18, 20, 15, 2, 14, 12
Skills: hide +12, jump +24
Feats: INA(Claw), Track, Imp. Trip
Leaping pounce(ex): When charging it can pounce, makes full attack including rake, if it hits a target its size or smaller it can make a free trip, if it makes the trip it can make a free grapple with no aoo. If the grapple check is successfull the creature is grappled and pinned, fleshraker deals automatic claw and **** damage vs pinned opponent. If the fleshraker fails the opposed trip it cannot be tripped in return. If it trips but fails the grapple the opponent is prone but not pinned or grappled.
Poison (ex) Injury dc 12+con damage 1d6dex/1d6dex.
Share spells: Druid can have any spell cast on himself also affect companion.
Evasion: No damage on ref save
Buffed stats of note
Hd: 6d8 + 24 (48hp)
Ac: 30 (8 natural, 4 armor, 7 dex) touch 17 flat footed 22
Init: + 7
Speed: 50
Attributes: 22, 24, 19, 2, 14, 12
Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6 + 7 + poison), Bite +6 melee (1d6 +3), Tail +6 melee (1d6 +3 + poison)
Special attacks: Poison(Dc 17, 1d6dex/1d6dex +5d6 acid), rake 1d6 +2, rend 2d6 + 8
Saves: 9, 12, 4
================
Strategy
vs Manticore
My spot is +10 and my hide is +16 the manticore has a +9 spot and +1 hide. I think its safe to assume we see it first.
We sneak to within 30 feet and pounce, first the druid then the dino.
Druid attacks
Claw (+9 hit vs 15ac) 75/50 to hit.
75, hit damage 8 physical 17acid (poison dc 16 vs 9 fort 35% saves)
150/150, hit damage 8 physical, 17 acid (poison 3 dex damage)
Bite 215/250 (+7 vs 15ac) miss
Tail 270/250 (+7 vs 15ac) hit 5 physical, 17 acid save vs poison
total damage: 72 Manticore very dead.
Alternative strategies:
Have one dino attract attention then charge from 30 feet with the other when manticore engages
Use Wild Empathy.
Vs Snake
Snakes hide skill is +10, my spot is +10. At worst Pouncy detects the snake from 30 feet away with scent.
Initiative Snake +3 Druid +7 Druid wins, (60/50)
Pouncy does a leaping charge at the snake.
Snake gets aoo (+13 vs ac 30) 15% sucess rate, miss.
Poucy claw (+13 vs ac 15) 90/50 success, hits for 10 physical damage + 17 acid, fort save vs poison (dc 17 vs 8fort, 40% fail 40/50) saved.
Pouncy claw 2 (+13 vs ac 15) 180/150 hits for 10 physical 17 acid fort save fails, 3 dex damage (80/150)
Pouncy bite, (+8 vs ac 15 70% success) 250/250 damage 6 physical
Pouncy rake, (+8 vs ac 15) 320/350 miss
Pouncy tail (+8 vs ac15) 390/350 hit 6 physical, 17 acid, poison saved (120/150)
Total damage 32 physical, 51 acid. Snake is dead.
Alternative strategies:
Use Wild Empathy.
vs Wraith
Init +7 vs + 7 (110/150) wraith wins
Approaches druid attempts touch (+5 vs 17 touch ac, 40/50) Miss
Poucy pounces on wraith - Only claws are valid weapons.
Claw +13 ac 15 90/50 miss to incorp
claw +13 ac 15 180/150 hit 10 phys, 17 acid
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
Claw +9 vs ac 15 150/150 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
Wraith has taken 53 damage and dies.
vs Rug
OMG Supprise
init +7 vs -1 200/150 druid wins
Rug attempts grapple +6 vs ac 10(flat footed touch) 85/50 hit attempts grapple (+19 vs +12 85/50) grappled.
Pouncy pounces on the rug.
Claw +13 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Claw +13 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Bite +8 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 6 phys
Rake +8 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 6 phys
Tail +8 vs ac 13 430/450 miss
Total damage:
Rug - 66
Druid
Grapple (+12 v +19) 15/50 failed
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage.
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +11 v 13 525/450 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Claw +11 v 13 620/550 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Bite +6 v 13 690/650 hit 6 phys
Rake +6 v 13 760/750 hit 6 phys
Tail +6 v 13 830/850 miss
Total damage:
Druid - 14
Rug - 132 (dead)
vs Dragon
No trying to be sneaky, though the pair could probably get supprise.
Init +7 v +0 285/250 Druid wins
Pouncy pounces.
Claw +13 v 19 ac 75/50 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 65/50 pass)
Claw +13 v 19 ac 150/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 130/150, 3 dex damage)
Bite +9 v 17 ac 215/250 miss
Rake +9 v 17 ac 280/250 6 phys
Tail +9 v 17 ac 345/350 miss
Trip +6 v + 6 (15 str + 4 for 4 legs) 50/50 tripped.
Grapple +13 v 12 dragon is grappled and is now pinned and helpless beneath Pouncy.
Total Damage:
Dragon - 60
Option A) Druid negotiates and allows the dragon to live.
Option B) Druid pounces on the helpless dragon for stupid damage and joins the pin. If the dragon had 500 hp, it would still be eaten without getting an action off. Note being pinned denies it even its breath weapon.
Total Resources expended:
1 3rd level spell
3 2nd level spells
1 first level spell
Equipement used:
Total gold spent 2200.
Barding (not really needed but the origional post included it).
He should have some poison cure, minor restoration etc scrolls on him. If I use IHSAMPTYECM again I'll work on gear, it just wasn't needed for so easy a set of monsters.
I didn't end up using Girralon arms because I'm not sure the added arms would be poisonous and it was completely not important.
During the entire cave IHSAMPTYECM took 14 points of damage, once the dragon is dead he resumes human form and heals himself for 9.
Now IHSAMPTYECM is level 6 with Natural Spell. Pouncy gains another 2hd and some stats and ac.
Summoner Druid ManShow
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 8
Feats
(Flaw)Spell Focus (Conj)
(Flaw)Augment Summoning
(Human)Greenbound Summoning
1 Beckon the Frozen
3 Ashbound Summoning
Flaws
Murky-Eyed
Pathetic (Str)
Spells:
1 - 4
2x Cure light wounds
Produce Flame
Magic Fang
2 - 3
3 - 2
Primal Form
Skills
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Survival (wis) 8
Example Summoned Creature Stats:
SNA1
Greenbound Wolf (Plant)
HD: 2d8 + 12 (20 hp)
Init: +3
Speed: 50ft
Ac: 21 (+3 dex, +8 natural) touch 13, Flatfoot 18
Base attack/grapple: +1/+
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d6 +6 +1d6 cold) or Slam
Special Qualities: Trip, DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 23, 17, 23, 2, 12, 10
SNA2
Greenbound Dire Bat
Hd 4d8 + 28 (46)
Init: +7
Speed: 20 Fly 40 (Good)
AC: 28 (+11 natural + 7 dex) Flatfoot 21, Touch 17
Attack Bite +8 melee (d8+ 8 + d6 cold)
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40', DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 27, 24, 25, 2, 14, 10
SNA3
Greenbound Lion (Plant)
Hd 5d8
Init:
Speed: 40
Ac: 23 (+9 natural +4 dex) Flatfoot 19, Touch 14
Bab/Grapple: 3/17
Attack: 2 claws +16(1d4 + 10 +d6 cold) and bite +16(1d8+ 5 +6d cold)
Special attacks: Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 1d4 +
Special qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Magic and slashing, Fast healing 3, +4 grapple, Resistance to cold/elect 10, tremorsense 60', Low light vision, Scent, At will - Entangle, Pass without Trace, Speak with Plants, 1x day Wall of thorns.
Abilities: 31, 19, 23, 2, 12, 10
Gear:
Pretty much anything.
Tactics:
For all fights summon a monster and then spend the combat avoiding the enemy until the summon kills it. There is basically 0 chance any summon will die with dr 10 and fast healing 3, and 10 rounds should be more than enough for a summon to kill off any of the encounters. Backup plan of summon pins the monster and druid CDG with scythe.
Well, once I've figured out that it only has a 20 foot movement speed (once it starts running towards me), I can figure out that it's safer to dismiss alterself and run rather than stay as a dwarven ancestor. After dismissing it, I had the option of refreshing it from a pearl, but since I was now in the cave itself, I would consider invisibility good enough (despite its shorter duration), and I could refresh it later if I need to.
Dismissing takes a standard action. But my question still stands, is it normal for you to rely upon invisibility vs armor class?
So you don't want the "psionics is overpowered" argument, but are fine with the possibility of a "tome of battle is overpowered argument"?
Personally I don't think that either is overpowered, but you should hold the same standard for both sides.
Yes. Any argument by the "overpowered casters" camp that says "A non-caster resource is overpowered" is an automatic win for my argument that casters are not overpowered (at least at low levels).
As far psionics being overpowered, I can point to persistant threads by the pro-psionics camp which show (in excrutiating detail) the lack of overpoweredness of psionics compared to magic.
I'll give a generic example of a doorstop like character to show some of the balance.
human
1 feat rogue/2 fighter/1 barbarian
Variants: 1 flaw, Ferocity from the Cityscape web enhancement. <-- You may want to use this one for your character as it is better than the whirling rage.
feats:
flaw 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Human feat: Improved Trip
1st level feat: Improved Disarm
feat rogue feat: Combat Expertize
fighter 2 feat: Combat Reflexes
3rd level feat: Lightning Reflexes
2nd fighter feat: Prone Attack
That is just nasty when used to slow down opponents.
Ferocity is not better than whirling rage, as whirling rage gives me extra attacks.
This build stub gives options, but doesn't have the OOMPH of being overpowered.
+4 caster level could also find good use in that build.
I'm good with that, given that a character has to use divine magic to know that the beads are magical...:D
I'm just pointing out another place where the rules give an edge to characters with spell casting. Not saying it is nice, but it is suitably by the book.
By using the same typo as you do, unlimited healing for free for a noncaster eliminated the healer slot. At best, I would say this is a wash.
But seriously, taking advantage of a typo ignores one of the 10 practical rules for optimization.
There are a few things wrong with it but it could easilly be used as is. The metal armor is 100% allowable if he worships Mieliki or whatever dumb Faerun god that is. The template is easilly factored out and then if I remeber right its correct.
I am well aware that at least half of the Bo9S stuff works in an amf. You can't possibly deny that the writeups are nearly 100% in the spell format and follow many of the same sorts of guidelines. They are very similar to spells other than the fact they have a different mechanism for casting. I would call it more of an alternate casting system than an alternate melee system as there is no real change in the melee mechanics.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the Bo9S stuff is some of the most balanced stuff around. When people do say that they are talking about it helping to narrow the gap between fighting types and caster types. If you use that as the basis for your argument you have already lost.
RE: PAO vs. Alter Self. If you can't see the massive difference between casting a spell that you can use multiple times a day vs. paying a wad of cash to have the strongest mage in the land cast a spell on you then I'm not sure discussion is really possible. One dispell magic and the non-melee is out 1200g and permantly back in thier origional form. A dispell magic will change a caster back into his normal form too but at best that will last until the next day, it may only last until the next round. Note that PAO is not instantaneous it has a duration.
I definitely agree that PAO just proves the power of casters, and can't really be said to help the noncaster camp, but for purposes of the cr5 challenges it was used in, it would be far more likely to survive vs dispel than an alter self, DC 26 dispel check is hard for a cr5 to beat, if not impossible.
[rant]Also ... let me know if I need to restrict the armor/weapons that noncasters are allowed to use.[/rant]
Well.. Conan is the iconoclastic melee destroyer of overpowered casters, so if you cant do it with a loincloth and a bastard sword, it aint official :P
PS: your build has to also be able to win an election for governor of California
Tactics:
For all fights summon a monster and then spend the combat avoiding the enemy until the summon kills it. There is basically 0 chance any summon will die with dr 10 and fast healing 3, and 10 rounds should be more than enough for a summon to kill off any of the encounters. Backup plan of summon pins the monster and druid CDG with scythe.
The manticore can flee. Tie. The manticore has enough intelligence to target the caster, rather than the creature.
The wraith can flee. Tie. Wraith has enough intelligence to target the druid rather than a summoned creature. The wraith can play hit-and-run.
The dragon has enough intelligence to target the druid. If necessary, it can retreat until the summoning disappears. It can play hit-and-run with your companions.
Just of curiosity, Meyers; A Standard Strand of Prayer Beads costs 25,800 gp, and comes with a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting.
I can reduce that by removing the bead of healing for –9,000 gp, and the bead of smiting for –16,800 gp. Therefore, I can buy a reduced to bead of Karma, Standard Strand of Prayer beads for 0 gp, correct? Or, even better, I can remove the bead of Karma and keep the bead of healing, at a nice, cheesy price of -11000 gold.
I'd like a fair "Rules as Written" interpretation of this yet-errata'ed, clearly a typo, but oh so easily abusable within the clearly written rules.
A character that could buy magic items for -11000 gold wouldn't go looking for dragons to kill, he would sit at home driving the local item makers to suicide (or assassination attempts). He might even destroy the universe through some sort of prayer bead paradox.
Yes. Any argument by the "overpowered casters" camp that says "A non-caster resource is overpowered" is an automatic win for my argument that casters are not overpowered (at least at low levels).
Actually, no it isn't. What is true of the whole need not be true of its parts. See this link fallacy of composition
As far psionics being overpowered, I can point to persistant threads by the pro-psionics camp which show (in excrutiating detail) the lack of overpoweredness of psionics compared to magic.
Psionics isn't overpowered.
Ferocity is not better than whirling rage, as whirling rage gives me extra attacks.
That what I get for not double checking.
This build stub gives options, but doesn't have the OOMPH of being overpowered.
Characters doesn't work alone. Having quite a few opponents on the prone makes combat easier for others. If your lucky you can have the vast majority of your opponents both prone and disarmed.
A character that could buy magic items for -11000 gold wouldn't go looking for dragons to kill, he would sit at home driving the local item makers to suicide (or assassination attempts). He might even destroy the universe through some sort of prayer bead paradox.
Or he'd become an artificer gaining EXP by building something with a negative EXP cost. He'd also have a negative build time. How's that for a nifty paradox?
There was something bothering me about your last battle (CR 6), and I finally figured it out. (Not to mention how unsatisfying the CR 6 is to begin with.)
This is v. the Bone Creatures, at the beginning of the fight.
... I activate fire blade ...
... This triggers fire riposte, hitting 65% of the time (I plan on full power attacking, so it is ac 13 vs +5), dealing 4d6+1d6+1d6+3 = 24 damage, killing it.
I bolded the relevant parts.
[Burning] Blade is a swift action to activate. (You say Fire Blade but mean Burning Blade here, as there is no Fire Blade maneuver, and you have Burning Blade listed as a known maneuver from the feat Martial Study.)
Fire Riposte is an immediate action to activate. Because it's your turn, using an immediate action counts as a swift action.
You cannot use two swift actions in a turn.
This means you cannot Fire Riposte for that additional 24 damage. Thus, it isn't dead.
Dismissing takes a standard action. But my question still stands, is it normal for you to rely upon invisibility vs armor class?
Dwarven Ancestor is probably a better defensive buff than invisibility, but beating a melee creatures movement speed is even better.
I can move 40 ft the round I dismiss alter self: If I need to I can use a teleport. Teleport 10 ft, dismiss, and retreat. I also have a web that I didn't use that I could use if I was really in trouble, but I don't think it's necessary.
Meyer,
There was something bothering me about your last battle (CR 6), and I finally figured it out. (Not to mention how unsatisfying the CR 6 is to begin with.)
This is v. the Bone Creatures, at the beginning of the fight.
I bolded the relevant parts.
[Burning] Blade is a swift action to activate. (You say Fire Blade but mean Burning Blade here, as there is no Fire Blade maneuver, and you have Burning Blade listed as a known maneuver from the feat Martial Study.)
Fire Riposte is an immediate action to activate. Because it's your turn, using an immediate action counts as a swift action.
You cannot use two swift actions in a turn.
This means you cannot Fire Riposte for that additional 24 damage. Thus, it isn't dead.
*bow*
Ah -- I see the issue. Thanks, I will correct.
Psionics isn't overpowered.
Psions would be easier to make for these kind of battles though, as long as powerpoints didn't run out (to solo you might need dorjes and powerstones). They are more effective blasters (at least until level 6, when arcane thesis appears), and vigor/share pain makes them more survivable (which is not usually a problem in the context of a party).
Honestly, running out of resources doesn't show that casters aren't overpowered, since in a party they won't (presuming the rest of the party contributes at all). Granted, I feel that the stunts that have been pulled at this level are non-cheesey, albeit powerful, so I would say that none of the lvl 5 builds are overpowered.
Tome of Battle definitely can even the playing field. Well built, I think they can even contribute at higher levels in a standard game, though a well built caster at higher levels can often solo the vast majority of epic baddies.
Actually, no it isn't. What is true of the whole need not be true of its parts. See this link fallacy of composition
So, what is the fallacy here?
The board contention is that spellcasters are overpowered.
People contend:
1) Noncasters cannot use items to replicate spellcasting
2) Noncasters cannot use ToB maneuvers/classes
3) Dipping is not really valid
4) Using Elite array unfairly reduces spellcasters power
5) Disallowing aging unfairly reduces spellcasters power.
So ... what is the contention that is subject to the fallacy of composition?
Psionics isn't overpowered.
If psionics is not overpowered, then why should it be held up as being overpowered? Which, is a reason to exclude it from this discussion.
Characters doesn't work alone. Having quite a few opponents on the prone makes combat easier for others. If your lucky you can have the vast majority of your opponents both prone and disarmed.
Having an impressive str score (and enlarge person) with a +2 trip weapon also helps with the trip attempts.
Disarming only works against creatures with weapons.
This mini-adventure set is a solo adventure. Using a character that relies upon a team is setting yourself up to fail.
So, what is the fallacy here?
[snip]
So ... what is the contention that is subject to the fallacy of composition?
Not all have Tome of Battle, and even thous that do might not be allowed to use it. Also if you must depend on Tome of Battle for casters to equal noncasters it would show that noncasters had a deficiency that needed to be fixed.
If psionics is not overpowered, then why should it be held up as being overpowered? Which, is a reason to exclude it from this discussion.
It takes less effort to get a powerful result, but with more effort magic comes out on top. Sort of like a what is said about Tome of Battle.
Having an impressive str score (and enlarge person) with a +2 trip weapon also helps with the trip attempts.
Disarming only works against creatures with weapons.
This mini-adventure set is a solo adventure. Using a character that relies upon a team is setting yourself up to fail.
Power is situational, or would like a mummy with no room to fly?
The mini-adventure set is a unrepresentative sample. It has it purpose, but should not be considered representative of Dungeons & Dragons as a whole.
Not all have Tome of Battle, and even thous that do might not be allowed to use it. Also if you must depend on Tome of Battle for casters to equal noncasters it would show that noncasters had a deficiency that needed to be fixed.
Not everyone has access to Forgotten Realms (Otherworldly), access to Eberron (ashbound), access to Lost Empires of Faerun (greenbound) access to PHB2 (divine retalitation), or access to MM4 (dwarven ancestor (or the online except)). But so what?
And *IF* noncasters *HAD* a deficiency prior to ToB and they no longer do, then so what? That deficiency disappeared over a year ago. This means it has not been part of this discussion for quite some time ago and can be ignored.
The mini-adventure set is a unrepresentative sample. It has it purpose, but should not be considered representative of Dungeons & Dragons as a whole.
This would be correct. However, examining a build in a vaccuum is even less representational. This is an attempt to see the builds in action. The monsters chosen are fairly generic monsters. And at this point in time, there is a fairly large amount of monsters listed. But you are correct, there are no spellcasters casting dispel magic on the PCs prior to engaging, etc ...
People contend:
1) Noncasters cannot use items to replicate spellcasting
2) Noncasters cannot use ToB maneuvers/classes
3) Dipping is not really valid
4) Using Elite array unfairly reduces spellcasters power
5) Disallowing aging unfairly reduces spellcasters power.
Different people contend different things, you're erroneously lumping everyone into every category that you don't agree with.
The manticore can flee. Tie. The manticore has enough intelligence to target the caster, rather than the creature.
The wraith can flee. Tie. Wraith has enough intelligence to target the druid rather than a summoned creature. The wraith can play hit-and-run.
The dragon has enough intelligence to target the druid. If necessary, it can retreat until the summoning disappears. It can play hit-and-run with your companions.
And the summoned creatures are around only 5 rounds. I think the wraith is the killer one. The pet won't come close and the summoned critters are easy to avoid because he can hide in a wall for the brief moments they are around (and likely just drain their con to recover hps, even greenbound will miss half the time and have low touch AC).
And the summoned creatures are around only 5 rounds. I think the wraith is the killer one. The pet won't come close and the summoned critters are easy to avoid because he can hide in a wall for the brief moments they are around (and likely just drain their con to recover hps, even greenbound will miss half the time and have low touch AC).
You are missing the biggest problem here. Summoning is a full-round action for this guy (unless I missed something)
Which means each-and-every monster disrupts his spell.
Ashbound summoning means they are around for 10 rounds, but still,
And the summoned creatures are around only 5 rounds. I think the wraith is the killer one. The pet won't come close and the summoned critters are easy to avoid because he can hide in a wall for the brief moments they are around (and likely just drain their con to recover hps, even greenbound will miss half the time and have low touch AC).
Summoned creatures are 10 rounds. They have dr10 which the wraith cannot bypass. Its true the wraith is the most challenging, mostly for that animals thing. It still dies though.
For someone who claimed the manticore could flee earlier.
A) If it flees I have defeated the encounter.
B) Were you counting on the druid not summoning flying forms, such as a a Hippogriff (Flight speed 100/average vs Flight speed 50/clumsy). Hell the druid can summon a hippogriff from outside of spike range and have it charge as soon as it appears.
Psions would be easier to make for these kind of battles though, as long as powerpoints didn't run out (to solo you might need dorjes and powerstones). They are more effective blasters (at least until level 6, when arcane thesis appears), and vigor/share pain makes them more survivable (which is not usually a problem in the context of a party).
In this sort of environment, PP are going to run out. If you're spending all your PP on Vigor/Share Pain, what's left over for actually dealing damage to the enemy? And what blasting options does the Psion have that the Wizard doesn't? Remember that a Psion pays for every die of damage with a power point, while an Arcane or Divine spellcaster can get a few damage dice for free just from having a high caster level.
access to Eberron (ashbound/greenbound)
Greenbound is from Lost Empires of Faerun (just in case you ever want to use it).
access to spell compendium (divine retribution)
Players handbook 2.
I pointed out that my build can be simple and powerful in nothing but a "Core and Completes" ruleset.
And it is so called Divine Retaliation.
vs manticore:
Round 1:
I start summoning.
It spikes me 6 times, killing me or disrupting my spell.
Round 2:
I start summoning
It spikes me 6 times, killing me or disrupting my spell.
Round 3:
I start summoning
It spikes me 6 times, killing me or disrupting my spell.
Round 4:
I start summoning
It spikes me 6 times, killing me or disrupting my spell.
Also, your build is not complete (no equipment, not all spells memorized, etc)
Or, Round 1, distance 250 feet. Summon Hippogriff. Manticore advances to spike. Round 2 Hippogriff charges and grapples Manticore. Or Wall of thorns or entangle etc.
I know its not complete, I don't really want to spend the time to run through all the rolls but I think it should be pretty obvious that its pretty broken.
Issues, you indicate that you have bonus feats from flaws, but no flaws.
You have no equipment listed but you mention barding. What barding is that. Also, please explain how you are wearing barding. (i.e. do dinosaurs normally have the ability to put on armor).
If I don't have the skill to use it I'll take the non proficient penalty. Which I believe is acp to all attacks, checks etc. The acp for a mithril chain shirt is 0, so go ahead and pretend there is a -0 after all of that stuff. I'm pretty sure that Poucy can be trained to wear armor just as well a horse though.
Please indicate which spells are cast.
Spells cast outside:
Magic fang (Claws)
Speak with animals
Cats grace
Bulls strength
Bears endurance
Venomfire
The cure light wounds is cast at the end of the adventure.
Once you finish the build, I can start examining it for legality, but for starters:
Manticore starts out flying so is not a valid charge target for groundbound characters
Wraith, your buddy cannot approach within 30', which means you are more than 30' away from each other, which means your shared spells fall off.
How are you seeing in the dark? Your fleshraker has light up? your fleshraker is carrying a torch? This matters as you are attempting to hide, I don't see you able to hide while wearing a light source.
You do not indicate which tricks your animal companion learned. How is it attacking the rug?
Alright, lets assume the clumsy flight speed manticore flys all day. As a matter of fact lets assume we just walk right up to it and let it exhaust its entire payload of spikes. 24 spikes 5% to hit. Pouncy takes 6 damage, happy? Now the manticore either flys away (I win) or attacks in melee. As I said under alternate strategies both dinos are readying a charge for when he comes into range (no flyby). The manticore dies as soon as it attempts melee with either dino.
New wraith fight.
Wraith attacks, misses.
Pouncy moves 30 feet away from the wraith, 25' from IHSAMPTYECM.
vs Wraith
Init +7 vs + 7 (110/150) wraith wins
Approaches druid attempts touch (+5 vs 17 touch ac, 40/50) Miss
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
Claw +9 vs ac 15 150/150 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
Wraith touches 80/50 - 2 damage save vs drain (+9 v dc 14) 75/50 pass
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 225 miss
Claw +9 vs ac 15 300/250 miss to incorp
Wraith touches 120/150 miss
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 300/250 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
Claw +9 vs ac 15 375/350 hit miss to incorp
Wraith has taken 53 damage and dies.
When we get inside the cave we use continual flame items, they aren't needed outside (where I was sneaking).
It attacks the rug, and everything else for that matter because I use speak with animals and tell it "Pouncy attack the rug". Hell at the start of the day I tell him "Pouncy, if anything attacks me jump on it and do your thing." If you really want me to I'll do a list of tricks but everything here is covered by an attack trick. He can also be taught to track by scent and other stuff but thats not really needed here.
Adding Scintilating Scales would be a good trick for later also. Among other things the rug would fail to grapple IHSAMPTYECM.
If I don't have the skill to use it I'll take the non proficient penalty. Which I believe is acp to all attacks, checks etc. The acp for a mithril chain shirt is 0, so go ahead and pretend there is a -0 after all of that stuff. I'm pretty sure that Poucy can be trained to wear armor just as well a horse though.
You misunderstand. What I am saying is that when you shapeshift, you do not turn from a druid wearing barding to a dinosaur wearing barding. You need to put it on. My question is, Can a fleshraker put armor on itself? A horse (for instance) cannot.
When we get inside the cave we use continual flame items, they aren't needed outside (where I was sneaking).
Remember that when you wildshape, most of your equipment merges in with you ... so ... whatever equipment you had out prior to shapeshifting, you can use. Any items that merged in with you are unable to be used.
It attacks the rug, and everything else for that matter because I use speak with animals and tell it "Pouncy attack the rug". Hell at the start of the day I tell him "Pouncy, if anything attacks me jump on it and do your thing." If you really want me to I'll do a list of tricks but everything here is covered by an attack trick. He can also be taught to track by scent and other stuff but thats not really needed here.
The rug is not a natural animal. Animals need special training (i don't know all it entails) to be able to attack them.
The rug is not a natural animal. Animals need special training (i don't know all it entails) to be able to attack them.
In the Handle Animal skill section:
Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
:D
In this sort of environment, PP are going to run out. If you're spending all your PP on Vigor/Share Pain, what's left over for actually dealing damage to the enemy? And what blasting options does the Psion have that the Wizard doesn't? Remember that a Psion pays for every die of damage with a power point, while an Arcane or Divine spellcaster can get a few damage dice for free just from having a high caster level.
If I were to make a psionic character for this challenge, it would probably be a wilder-gish that used psionic shot for damage and only used powerpoints for vigor and a few other powers.
You misunderstand. What I am saying is that when you shapeshift, you do not turn from a druid wearing barding to a dinosaur wearing barding. You need to put it on. My question is, Can a fleshraker put armor on itself? A horse (for instance) cannot.
Remember that when you wildshape, most of your equipment merges in with you ... so ... whatever equipment you had out prior to shapeshifting, you can use. Any items that merged in with you are unable to be used.
The rug is not a natural animal. Animals need special training (i don't know all it entails) to be able to attack them.
I'm guessing a int 12 druid flesh raker could probably rig it up. Not that it really matters, his non-touch ac was never tested.
Things held while wildshaped would merge, things picked up later do not. If you really wanted to get super nit-picky the continual light items are hung around the dinos necks by a cord, a second cord is attached to a covering cloth and the other dino pulls it off in his teeth if needed.
Give me a break, yes the dino is trained to attack. Even if it wasn't "Hey Pouncy, claw the crap out of this carpet".
vs Frick n Frack
init +6 v +4 (60/50) Win
Pouncy charges Frick.
Frick gets an AoO (+7 v ac 28) 5/50 miss.
Pouncy claw +13 v ac 16 90/50 hit 10 phys, 17 acid
Pouncy claw +13 v ac 16 180/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid
Bite +8 245/250 miss
Rake +8 310/250 hit 6
Trip +10 v +2 (90/50) tripped
Grapple +10 v +5 (75/50) grappled and pinned.
IHSAMPTYECM pounces on Frack.
Claw +11 v ac 12 95/50 hit 10 17
Claw +11 190/150 hit 10 17
Bite +9 280/250 6
Rake +9 370/350 6
Trip +5 v +0 75/50 tripped
Grapple +12 v +0 grappled and pinned
Total Damage:
Frick - 60 (Dead)
Frack - 66 (Dead)
vs Wights
Init +6 v + 1 (135/150) lost
Wight1 charges Pouncy
Slam +4 v ac 30 Miss 5/50
Wight2 charges IHSAMPTYECM
Slam +4 v ac 27 miss 5/50
Pouncy full attacks Wight1
Claw +11 v ac 15 80/50 hit 10 17
Claw +11 160/150 10 17
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks wight
Claw +9 v ac 15 75/50 9 17
Claw +9 v ac 15 150/150 9 17
Total Damage:
Wight1 - 54 (Dead)
Wight2 - 52 (Dead)
Will 'o Wisp - ignored
v Mummy
init +6 v + 0 (210/150) wins
Despair
IHSAMPTYECM +6 v dc 16 60/50 pass
Pouncy +3 v dc 16 100/150 fail paralyzed for 2 rounds
Pouncy stunned round 1
IHSAMPTYECM grapples the mummy
Touch +9 v ac 10 hit (95/50)
Grapple +12 v +11 grappled (55/50)
Mummy attempts to break grapple +11 v +12 (45/50)
Pouncy stunned round 2
IHSAMPTYECM attempts a pin +12 v +11 (110/150) fails
Mummy attempts to break grapple +11 v +12 (90/50) succeeds.
Pouncy pounces on the free mummy
Claw +13 v ac 20 70/150 hit 5 17
Claw +13 v ac 20 140/150 miss
Bite +8 200/150 hit 1
Rake +8 240/250 miss
Trip +10 v + 7 tripped
Grapple +11 v + 12 (155/150) grappled and pinned
Damage:
Mummy - 23
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks the mummy
Claw +9 v 20ac 145/150 miss
Claw +9 195/150 hit 4 17
Total damage:
Mummy - 44
Mummy attempts to break the pin +12 v +11 145/150 failed
Pouncy does claw and bite damage - mummy dies.
v Vampire
OMG SUPPRISE
Vampire guesses correctly that one of the dinos is a druid and attempts dominate, guessing the correct dino.
Dominate v IHSAMPTYECM (+6 v dc 15) 60/50 pass
Pouncy pounces the vamp
Claw +13 v ac 20 70/50 hit 1 17
Claw +13 140/150 miss
Bite and rake ignored because of DR.
Trip +10 v +6 (75/50) tripped
Grapple +11 v 12 failed (45/50)
IHSAMPTYECM pounces on the vamp
Claw +11 v ac 20 60/50 hit 17
Claw +11 120/150 miss
Grapple +12 v +12 (95/50) grappled and pinned.
Vampire attempts to break pin +12 v + 12 (50/50) breaks free (Cannot try Dominate while pinned)
Heals 5
Damage:
Vampire - 30
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +11 v ac 16 215/150 1 17
Claw +11 290/250 1 17
Vampire dies.
Or, Round 1, distance 250 feet. Summon Hippogriff. Manticore advances to spike. Round 2 Hippogriff charges and grapples Manticore. Or Wall of thorns or entangle etc.
I know its not complete, I don't really want to spend the time to run through all the rolls but I think it should be pretty obvious that its pretty broken.
For that to work, the encounter has to begin at 250', which means your Druid has to make a successful Spot check at that distance (with a -1 penalty for every ten feet of intervening distance).
Also, Hippogriffs are magical beasts, so they don't benefit from Greenbound Summoning.
For that to work, the encounter has to begin at 250', which means your Druid has to make a successful Spot check at that distance (with a -1 penalty for every ten feet of intervening distance).
Also, Hippogriffs are magical beasts, so they don't benefit from Greenbound Summoning.
Giant owl, Giant eagle etc.
Vampire attempts to break pin +12 v + 12 (50/50) breaks free (Cannot try Dominate while pinned)
It could just try its Gasous Form ability.
[edit]Also did you cut the damage in half for the bone creatures?[/edit]
Crypt of Creepiness 2.0
Rules:
1. You know that it is a crypt and have as much times as you need to prepare.
2. I'll highlight changes to monsters so you can find errors easier.
1. You know that it is a crypt and have as much times as you need to prepare.
2. I'll highlight changes to monsters so you can find errors easier.
The Entrance
Area: A cave entrance to a crypt. It descends down 20 feet and turns to the right to prevent sunlight from ever shining upon the entrance.
As you descend from the sunlight world an old set of double doors blocks your path. Upon it is a old, but legible, cryptic warning and a scroll-like piece of paper upon the crack between the doors. Any attempt to remove it or open the doors destroys it.
As you descend from the sunlight world an old set of double doors blocks your path. Upon it is a old, but legible, cryptic warning and a scroll-like piece of paper upon the crack between the doors. Any attempt to remove it or open the doors destroys it.
Read the Writing
He waits alone.
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
Guarded by rags.
Dressed in stone.
Patent as death.
The treasure is his alone
Slight slant
Show
First the op is clearly trying to prove that casters are not broken.
Also I personally hate both the elite array and the 25 point buy system. More points lead to more diversity of play. . . in 2nd if anyone remembers the paladin and ranger were just fighters who had enough points spare for mad (my interpretation) so the more ability point allowed the more powerful wizards become. Silightly slanting.... lol
Also I personally hate both the elite array and the 25 point buy system. More points lead to more diversity of play. . . in 2nd if anyone remembers the paladin and ranger were just fighters who had enough points spare for mad (my interpretation) so the more ability point allowed the more powerful wizards become. Silightly slanting.... lol
Giant owl, Giant eagle etc.
Yes, they're also Magical Beasts. Good catch.
It could just try its Gasous Form ability.
[edit]Also did you cut the damage in half for the bone creatures?[/edit]
Er right, claws are only slash/pierce so both bone creatures took slightly less damage. They were both pinned before they got to go though so I don't think it alters anything.
Reminder: You do not get your Dex bonus to AC while flat footed.
Grizley, could you please finish your character? I can not follow your character while it is scattered in dribs and drabs around this thread. I can't even tell what his AC is.
There are two, one that is a wildshape pouncer and the other is a summoner. The summoner really needs level 6 or a distraction to be truely broken but lets face it, 99.99% of all DnD games do involve a party.
The pouncer has ac listed under wildshape stats. Its something like... 9? in human form.
There are two, one that is a wildshape pouncer and the other is a summoner. The summoner really needs level 6 or a distraction to be truely broken but lets face it, 99.99% of all DnD games do involve a party.
The pouncer has ac listed under wildshape stats. Its something like... 9? in human form.
+1
emphasis mine . . .
did you consider the hirelings?
There are two, one that is a wildshape pouncer and the other is a summoner. The summoner really needs level 6 or a distraction to be truely broken but lets face it, 99.99% of all DnD games do involve a party.
The pouncer has ac listed under wildshape stats. Its something like... 9? in human form.
You are still applying animal only feats to animals. Actually, as far as I remember, there isn't a single flying animal bigger than small in D&D. The big ones are all magical beasts or something else exotic.
Also the whole "druids can perfectly put on equipment" while wildshaped is pretty cheesy. By your vision, I could argue that a tied up wizard with his togue cut off would still be able to produce the somatic and verbal components of spells by alternate ways, (other than metamagic) like beating his feets on the floor and waving his toes.
You are still applying animal only feats to animals. Actually, as far as I remember, there isn't a single flying animal bigger than small in D&D. The big ones are all magical beasts or something else exotic.
Dire bat is an large animal, is it not? thats the only one I can think of off hand though. Not sure off hand if it's summonable though.
You are still applying animal only feats to animals. Actually, as far as I remember, there isn't a single flying animal bigger than small in D&D. The big ones are all magical beasts or something else exotic.
I don't know of any summonable ones, but there are animals bigger than Small. Dire bat (large) from MM1/SRD. Desmodu hunting bat (large) from MM2. Dire hawk (medium) from RotW.
I can't find any flying dinosaurs. I'm surprised.
Also the whole "druids can perfectly put on equipment" while wildshaped is pretty cheesy. By your vision, I could argue that a tied up wizard with his togue cut off would still be able to produce the somatic and verbal components of spells by alternate ways, (other than metamagic) like beating his feets on the floor and waving his toes.
Most animals have all the normal magic item slots. However, the character would need someone else to put the items on him. (A hireling could do it-- a fact I used in an optimization exercise once.)
Leo, I do believe there are flying dinosaurs and the dire versions of flying animals that are larger than small size. But let me check and get back later to be sure.
Not to mention that he's been given the link to the ROC previously, in other threads.
There are some imbalances in this thread.
Slight slantShowFirst the op is clearly trying to prove that casters are not broken.
Also I personally hate both the elite array and the 25 point buy system. More points lead to more diversity of play. . . in 2nd if anyone remembers the paladin and ranger were just fighters who had enough points spare for mad (my interpretation) so the more ability point allowed the more powerful wizards become. Silightly slanting.... lol
There are two, one that is a wildshape pouncer and the other is a summoner. The summoner really needs level 6 or a distraction to be truely broken but lets face it, 99.99% of all DnD games do involve a party.
The pouncer has ac listed under wildshape stats. Its something like... 9? in human form.
Remember, for your druid/fleshraker, you are relying upon your 1 min/level spells to increase your capabilities.
BEST CASE ... you put on armor (1 minute, assuming a fleshraker can don armor at the same pace as a human) and cast 5 spells (5 rounds), then roll for initiative. Your min/level spells run out in crypt of creepiness (where it states there is 1 minute of distance between encounters) between encounter 3 and 4.
Worst case ... you spent time traveling from where you put on your armor to where the first encounter is ... this means you have less duration out of your spells.
For the summoner: How are you getting around the fact that while you are summoning you are leaving yourself open to an attack?
Also, when running grapples. Saying that you win 55% and then saying that it loses 45% (total accumulated 45%) is not accurate. It wins 45% first attempt, 45% second attempt (90%) which is a win.
Instead of seeing what we normally hear about, I'm seeing Dwarven Ancestors, Eidolons, and warmages, debates about adding hirelings and how much wealth was used.
It's odd.
They can be overpowered a levels 1 or 2, but it seems winning initiative at those levels is enough to skew the results.
I agree somewhat with Meyer. Though I wouldn't take the lack of certain casters builds as proof that casters are not overpowered, it is a little suspect.
Instead of seeing what we normally hear about, I'm seeing Dwarven Ancestors, Eidolons, and warmages, debates about adding hirelings and how much wealth was used.
It's odd.
May I ask what you normally hear about that you're not seeing here or expect to see? Given the very low levels involved I'm not entirely sure what you expect to see.
Read this thread. Notice that it is tough to get people to post builds but that the power level of casters is not as high as people tend to think it is. (again, solely based on this thread.)
It is also highly time consuming, and this thread came up going into exam season.
I contend that my divine metamagic cleric is at least as powerful as your fighter/rogue2/barbarian/warblade melee character, given that we are able to complete encounters to the same degree.
I also have come to re-evaluation as a result of this thread. Now I am of the opinion that:
Level 1: Casters and ToB using characters >>> Other melees
At level 1, a caster maximizing 1 thing (Firebolt 5d6 damage with sudden maximize and sudden empower, sleep/colour spray DC 15-18 when the will saves are averaging at +1) are quite strong.
Level 2-6: ToB characters >>> Melees = Druid/Cleric >>> Arcane casters.
Level 7-10: ToB characters = Casters >>> Melees
Level 11-16: Casters >>> ToB Characters >>> Melees
Level 17+: Casters >>> ToB Characters >>> Extremely well built melee characters.
I place Tome of Battle using characters in a different category. Like many other on the Char-Op Forum, I accept that the material presented in Tome of Battle is highly powerful, and brings melee characters to a completely new level. However, the distinction of those using "Blade Magic" (Chapter 3's title) is important to make in a world where not all books can be used always.
I'm still spending my limited spare time (2 essays and 4 exams to go in 2 weeks) combing books for even better persistable spells. I've found a few.
I agree somewhat with Meyer. Though I wouldn't take the lack of certain casters builds as proof that casters are not overpowered, it is a little suspect.
Instead of seeing what we normally hear about, I'm seeing Dwarven Ancestors, Eidolons, and warmages, debates about adding hirelings and how much wealth was used.
It's odd.
That's because this thread is concerning solo adventures, as opposed to with-party adventures. In solo fights, the dynamics change dramatically: check out the Core Coliseum for examples of screwy builds in these situations (actually, the monster fights should be good examples of how low level characters do against monsters). Still, Druids are king over there; there are some Clerics, and most of the Wizards rely on Alter Self or something, but the biggest thing you'll notice looking at it is that "I am more mobile than you, so you die" is an exceptionally common tactic.
I'd say that the two classic "do everything with no help" builds have appeared in this thread, though (DMM cleric, pounce druid). They both perform well in this exceptionally contrived situation.
Level 2-6: ToB characters >>> Melees = Druid/Cleric >>> Arcane casters.
A level 6 non ToB Melee character is not comparable, let alone more powerful than a level 6 Arcane Caster. Off of the top of my head, you've got Tainted Scholar for a DC of around 35 on all of your spells, Arcane Thesis Scorching Ray/ Easy Metamagic/ Metamagic school focus for Twinned Empowered scorching rays doing an average of 84 pts of damage per spell (and still spell level 2, 1 with sanctum for pearl of power abuse), in addition to the most deadly ranged attacks combined with multiple methods of increasing mobility.
Divine Metamagic Persistent Channeled divine shield gives DR 10, available at level 5. Fleshraker+venomfire is just sick. Master of Shrouds kills most opponents without recourse. I would really like to see a lvl 6 martial character without ToB out-perform some of these builds.
Remember, for your druid/fleshraker, you are relying upon your 1 min/level spells to increase your capabilities.
BEST CASE ... you put on armor (1 minute, assuming a fleshraker can don armor at the same pace as a human) and cast 5 spells (5 rounds), then roll for initiative. Your min/level spells run out in crypt of creepiness (where it states there is 1 minute of distance between encounters) between encounter 3 and 4.
He can't do that. He can't cast spells as a fleshraker at all. He can't have natural spell until level 6.
So he needs buff, put on the armor (actually barding, double cost) with the help of some hireling. And then go in, praying his buffs do not vanish midway the crypt.
He can't do that. He can't cast spells as a fleshraker at all. He can't have natural spell until level 8.
So he needs buff, put on the armor (actually barding, double cost) with the help of some hireling. And then go in, praying his buffs do not vanish midway the crypt.
Worst case I offer Joe the stable boy a whole gold piece to come with me and put the armor on.
I don't know why people are getting so excited about that barding, in the cr 5 challenge the druids ac was never called into question other than touch. I would also point out that with the exception of the wraith the animal companion can clear the CR5 challenge without help from the druid, if the wraith didn't have an aura that made it so the animal can't get near it then Pouncy could take the wraith too.
The druid needs to fight in the Crypt, but I think the longest fight there lasted what 3 rounds? A whopping 18 seconds. I'm pretty sure that he could finish the Crypt with no items and only magic fang and venomfire for buffs. Both of those last far longer than needed.
Keep in mind that other than the barding that I kept from the origional post the wildshape druid is using NO GEAR. That leaves a lot of magic items that I could go digging up if I wanted to. Throw +1 amulet of nat armor, ring of prot and bracers of armor on the dino and he is doing pretty damn well for armor. I believe those are all valid slots also. Yes, he has to put them on after wildshaping, big deal.
Thank you for pointing out the truely sicking part about the charecter, its that next level is the real start to the brokeness. Natural spell makes it so much stronger its not even funny. Thats also when the summoning druid really will come into his own, right now he has to stay in human form to summon and he really needs bearform for defense.
He can't do that. He can't cast spells as a fleshraker at all. He can't have natural spell until level 6.
That's why the Druid build I was working on (and never posted...) was a Buommon (with the Nonverbal Spell feat) Wild-Shaped into... I believe it was a babboon? Some kind of monkey or ape... The point is that as a Buommon spellcaster, he'd taken Nonverbal Spell at level 1, which means he can provide verbal components by making any sort of sound he likes rather than speaking. This works as well for the Buommi language as it does for the noises an animal makes. And then, presumably, a monkey or ape can perform somatic components with its forelimbs. (I agree that a Fleshraker probably doesn't have much of a chance...) Oh, and the fact that Buommon get a racial Wisdom bonus wasn't bad.
Worst case I offer Joe the stable boy a whole gold piece to come with me and put the armor on.
I don't know why people are getting so excited about that barding, in the cr 5 challenge the druids ac was never called into question other than touch. I would also point out that with the exception of the wraith the animal companion can clear the CR5 challenge without help from the druid, if the wraith didn't have an aura that made it so the animal can't get near it then Pouncy could take the wraith too.
We get "so excited" about barding, as one of the things that we do is examine the builds for flaws. As it stands, as you posted thing ... we showed you how things work. If you wear barding, you reduce the duration of your spells. It is a tradeoff. Either you wear it, or you don't. One of the things that is held up as a benefit of being a druid is the sickening high AC you can get while buffed/etc ... as you can see, it isn't as easy as you had thought.
The druid needs to fight in the Crypt, but I think the longest fight there lasted what 3 rounds? A whopping 18 seconds. I'm pretty sure that he could finish the Crypt with no items and only magic fang and venomfire for buffs. Both of those last far longer than needed.
There is also 1 minute between encounters, which puts a timer on things. If you can perform better without the buffs, please rerun.
Keep in mind that other than the barding that I kept from the origional post the wildshape druid is using NO GEAR. That leaves a lot of magic items that I could go digging up if I wanted to. Throw +1 amulet of nat armor, ring of prot and bracers of armor on the dino and he is doing pretty damn well for armor. I believe those are all valid slots also. Yes, he has to put them on after wildshaping, big deal.
Which takes time away from his buffs. Also, I am not sure how flexible flesh-rakers are to put them on themselves (I haven't seen a picture of one, but I know that t-rex's cannot put amulets on, etc. Also, the fact that most every bit of gear you have melds into you when you shift, not using gear is not really showing anything as whatever you had isn't there anyways.
It is also highly time consuming, and this thread came up going into exam season.
I contend that my divine metamagic cleric is at least as powerful as your fighter/rogue2/barbarian/warblade melee character, given that we are able to complete encounters to the same degree.
Give me a couple more days and I will post more detailed results for each battle on page one, as well as links to each battle.
I also have come to re-evaluation as a result of this thread. Now I am of the opinion that:
Level 1: Casters and ToB using characters >>> Other melees
At level 1, a caster maximizing 1 thing (Firebolt 5d6 damage with sudden maximize and sudden empower, sleep/colour spray DC 15-18 when the will saves are averaging at +1) are quite strong.
Based on this thread, arcane casters like that do not exist. Or, to put it a different way, none of the arcane casters who participate in this thread have been able to do that at level one.
Level 2-6: ToB characters >>> Melees = Druid/Cleric >>> Arcane casters.
Would DMM Cleric have been as good at level 4 (pre level 3 spells?)
Would TOB Character have been as good pre-TOB? (pre warblade level)
I'm still spending my limited spare time (2 essays and 4 exams to go in 2 weeks) combing books for even better persistable spells. I've found a few.
One of the other contentions we see all the time is how much easier it is to make casters than noncasters.
A level 6 non ToB Melee character is not comparable, let alone more powerful than a level 6 Arcane Caster. Off of the top of my head, you've got Tainted Scholar for a DC of around 35 on all of your spells, Arcane Thesis Scorching Ray/ Easy Metamagic/ Metamagic school focus for Twinned Empowered scorching rays doing an average of 84 pts of damage per spell (and still spell level 2, 1 with sanctum for pearl of power abuse), in addition to the most deadly ranged attacks combined with multiple methods of increasing mobility.
Which level 5 arcane caster currently posted can pull these off?
Divine Metamagic Persistent Channeled divine shield gives DR 10, available at level 5. Fleshraker+venomfire is just sick. Master of Shrouds kills most opponents without recourse. I would really like to see a lvl 6 martial character without ToB out-perform some of these builds.
No one has finished the Master of Shrouds build.
The fleshraker+venomfire build has not finished the dungeon yet (buffs fall off part-way through).
DMM Persisted Channeled Divine Shield is a good solid build.
Which takes time away from his buffs. Also, I am not sure how flexible flesh-rakers are to put them on themselves (I haven't seen a picture of one, but I know that t-rex's cannot put amulets on, etc. Also, the fact that most every bit of gear you have melds into you when you shift, not using gear is not really showing anything as whatever you had isn't there anyways.
Summon Nature's Ally 1 for a monkey and have it help.
Don't nitpick if you are serious.
-AS-
Summon Nature's Ally 1 for a monkey and have it help.
Don't nitpick if you are serious.
-AS-
I was not aware that monkey's knew how to put armor on people. Also, it takes 1 minute for a human to put a chain shirt on. Summon Nature's Ally 1 (for this druid build) lasts 5 rounds.
So, druid casts all his buffs (6), summon nature ally (1), explains to the monkey what to do (move), shapeshifts (standard), and then 4 rounds later, when the armor is 1/2 on, the monkey disappears.
What we are trying to show here, is that some of the things that people take for granted in lots of builds, are actually misconceptions.
-AS-
Don Hastily is 5 rounds and you knew that(its in the same table). You are a druid, you tell it what to do(it sure appears as if the druid has speak with animals cast. Again, you knew that).
-AS-
1 round is 6 seconds. 5 rounds is 30 seconds. How long does it take to explain to a monkey how to put on armor? Regardless, I posted how the monkey cannot complete putting on the armor in 5 rounds.
Additionally, donning armor hastily results in penalties. These penalties are not listed in the build.
So, the poster can remove the armor from his build (which he said did not get used anyway) or can pay someone to put the armor on him (and then we need to see if his hireling dies (from being too close to the manticore) or we subtract additional rounds from the duration of his spells).
1 round is 6 seconds. 5 rounds is 30 seconds. How long does it take to explain to a monkey how to put on armor? Regardless, I posted how the monkey cannot complete putting on the armor in 5 rounds.
Additionally, donning armor hastily results in penalties. These penalties are not listed in the build.
So, the poster can remove the armor from his build (which he said did not get used anyway) or can pay someone to put the armor on him (and then we need to see if his hireling dies (from being too close to the manticore) or we subtract additional rounds from the duration of his spells).
Nothing like arguing with pure stupid is there.
Look, who cares if the hireling dies. The point is with or without the armor the druid plows through the adventure that you had to bend the rules with flying and charging while prone to pass.
If you cannot agree that the pounce druid is massively overpowered compared to even the ToB build then we just aren't playing the same game. Hell, the pets ac is just a hair short of the PAO rogue if I remeber right, and I could spend my entire wealth limit buffing it up. So in short the pounce build does orders of magnitude more damage than either melee build and has defenses at least as solid. At the end of the challenge the druid still has spells left uncast and hasn't used a single consumable.
Lets not forget those out of combat abilities either, the druid has gobs of them.
The best part is level 6 is substantially stronger than level 5 for both druid builds because of natural spell.
1 round is 6 seconds. 5 rounds is 30 seconds. How long does it take to explain to a monkey how to put on armor? Regardless, I posted how the monkey cannot complete putting on the armor in 5 rounds.
Additionally, donning armor hastily results in penalties. These penalties are not listed in the build.
So, the poster can remove the armor from his build (which he said did not get used anyway) or can pay someone to put the armor on him (and then we need to see if his hireling dies (from being too close to the manticore) or we subtract additional rounds from the duration of his spells).
Here's an interesting question: where does it say that a fleshraker or other non-humanoid can't put armor on? Can you point me to something that would be a reason why an intelligent creature couldn't make or have made armor that not only fit it, but was capable of being put on by said creature without any help?
So, druid casts all his buffs (6), summon nature ally (1), explains to the monkey what to do (move), shapeshifts (standard),
Speaking is a free action and you know that.
and then 4 rounds later, when the armor is 1/2 on, the monkey disappears.
5/4 = .5. Riiiight.
What we are trying to show here, is that some of the things that people take for granted in lots of builds, are actually misconceptions.
No, you're grasping at straws. If I were to play your game I would point out that you're an orc and the only people that both have strong magic and deal with orcs are drow. Drow enslave orcs so at cr2 when you went to buy magic items you were tossed in a drow mine so the build is invalid.
Look, who cares if the hireling dies.
If you cannot agree that the pounce druid is massively overpowered compared to even the ToB build then we just aren't playing the same game. Hell, the pets ac is just a hair short of the PAO rogue if I remeber right, and I could spend my entire wealth limit buffing it up. So in short the pounce build does orders of magnitude more damage than either melee build and has defenses at least as solid. At the end of the challenge the druid still has spells left uncast and hasn't used a single consumable.
I am asking the same thing from you as I have from every other build. Legality.
You cannot compare your pets AC to the PAO rogue, if, in the same set of posts, you comment that you do not need the armor.
Lets not forget those out of combat abilities either, the druid has gobs of them.
The best part is level 6 is substantially stronger than level 5 for both druid builds because of natural spell.
Here's an interesting question: where does it say that a fleshraker or other non-humanoid can't put armor on? Can you point me to something that would be a reason why an intelligent creature couldn't make or have made armor that not only fit it, but was capable of being put on by said creature without any help?
If you look at some postsabove here, you will see me ask if a druid in fleshraker form can put the barding on itself.
A horse, for instance, cannot put barding on itself. It cannot physically do it, no matter how intelligent it might be.
Speaking is a free action and you know that.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
How many sentences do you consider necessary to explain to the monkey how to put armor on a fleshraker?
5/4 = .5. Riiiight.
With your build having an AC bonus of 4 from chain shirt and no armor check penalty, means the armor was put on normally, not hastily. Which is 10 rounds.
No, you're grasping at straws. If I were to play your game I would point out that you're an orc and the only people that both have strong magic and deal with orcs are drow. Drow enslave orcs so at cr2 when you went to buy magic items you were tossed in a drow mine so the build is invalid.
No, if you were to play my game, you would point out things like other people have (fire riposte requires a maneuver as a prereq, I cannot swift action and immediate action in the same turn, etc) which are rules-based.
No, you're grasping at straws. If I were to play your game I would point out that you're an orc and the only people that both have strong magic and deal with orcs are drow. Drow enslave orcs so at cr2 when you went to buy magic items you were tossed in a drow mine so the build is invalid.
What the ... ?
A horse, for instance, cannot put barding on itself. It cannot physically do it, no matter how intelligent it might be.
Why not? Can you point to a specific rule that it can't? Or is it just your opinion that a horse would be incapable of putting on it's own armor if it was designed for such? What about Houyhnhnms?
Keep in mind that barding we make for horses they can't put on because we don't make it for them to put on. We make it for us to put on them. Saying an intelligent horse couldn't have armor made that it would be both capable of donning and removing is extremely unsound in a fantasy setting.
Why not? Can you point to a specific rule that it can't? Or is it just your opinion that a horse would be incapable of putting on it's own armor if it was designed for such? What about Houyhnhnms?
Keep in mind that barding we make for horses they can't put on because we don't make it for them to put on. We make it for us to put on them. Saying an intelligent horse couldn't have armor made that it would be both capable of donning and removing is extremely unsound in a fantasy setting.
Because this is when we stop using the brain and go straight to extreme rulelawyering idioticity The places where we find tigers attacking with the tail and dwarves that defecate gold "because it does not say in the RAW that they do not".
Because this is when we stop using the brain and go straight to extreme rulelawyering idioticity The places where we find tigers attacking with the tail and dwarves that defecate gold "because it does not say in the RAW that they do not".
which is what meyer has been doing all along.
Because this is when we stop using the brain and go straight to extreme rulelawyering idioticity The places where we find tigers attacking with the tail and dwarves that defecate gold "because it does not say in the RAW that they do not".
Because D&D is a party game and in a party the issue would be moot?
Which level 5 arcane caster currently posted can pull these off?
None. These both appear at level 6, and are extremely overpowered at that point.
You cannot compare your pets AC to the PAO rogue, if, in the same set of posts, you comment that you do not need the armor.
QUOTE]
Ok, lets compare.
Rogue has ac30. Thats quite strong as we saw.
Fleshraker pet has ac30 also. Note you haven't even hinted that there are any issues with the companions armor.
Now lets try throwing a ring of prot +1, amulet of natural armor +1 on the fleshraker. Ac 32. Maybe instead of the con buff (completely redundant as Pouncy takes 6 damage total) he gets a barkskin instead. Whoa look at the ac go!
If you use the posted build and assume the druid has no armor the entire encounter plays out exactly the same.
I have a couple questions for you:
The pounce druid drastically outperforms all posted melee (including pao) in combat? (Y/N)
The pounce druid drastically outperforms all posted melee out of combat? (Y/N)
The pounce druid uses far less consumables than any posted melee? (Y/N)
The pounce druid is capable of defeating as many or more encounters in a day than any of the posted melee? (Y/N)
The pounce druid is capabale of defeating larger single encounters than any posted melee? (Y/N)
Edit: As far as the hirelings life being unimportant. You realize Malar is a favored god of a certain stripe of druid, right? It even has mechanical advantages. Argueing the importance of the life of a hireling is the mark of desperation.
Level 2-6: ToB characters >>> Melees = Druid/Cleric >>> Arcane casters.
Care to justify ToB > pounce druid?
I would say at level 5...
Druid >>> ToB ~ Caster ~ Cleric >>> melee
Now if you forbid any poly/alterself/pao stuff then the casters don't get good until 7th. Still barring any supprise grapple encounters (which are extremely rare outside Meyers contrived set of encounters) there have been a number of casters the perform very well.
since i dont know which CR5 encounters you are using now.... i gave tactics for All creatures listed in both...... this character is equiped as i would normally for regular Adventuring.....and since she is attempting to Solo this Dungeon... im assuming it was because of a Drunken Bet with her Party members over her bragging about her abilities ..... she has sobered up and realizes the stupidity of the bet... so will go all out to survive
Alix the Fiery
General information
Race: Female Neraph
now this is Alixs Stats:
Race: Female Neraph(0-LA outsider)
Class: Warmage 5
8 Str
10 Dex
12 Con
15 Int
14 Wis
14 Cha(13+1lvl)
Feats:
Precocious apprentice
Arcane disciple (transmutation)
Versatile Spell Caster
Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Hitpoints:5d6+10= 32
BAB +2
Saves: Fort +3/ Ref +1/ Will+6
Skills:(Ranks+Bonuses) Concentration 6, Spellcraft 6, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Knowledge (Religion)(CROSS CLASSED) 5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering)(CROSS CLASSED) 1, Craft (Alchemy) 3, Knowledge (the planes)(CROSS CLASSED) 1,Knowledge (Nature)(CROSS CLASSED) 1
Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Combust, Spell Compendium)
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
Race: Female Neraph
now this is Alixs Stats:
Race: Female Neraph(0-LA outsider)
Class: Warmage 5
8 Str
10 Dex
12 Con
15 Int
14 Wis
14 Cha(13+1lvl)
Feats:
Precocious apprentice
Arcane disciple (transmutation)
Versatile Spell Caster
Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Hitpoints:5d6+10= 32
BAB +2
Saves: Fort +3/ Ref +1/ Will+6
Skills:(Ranks+Bonuses) Concentration 6, Spellcraft 6, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Knowledge (Religion)(CROSS CLASSED) 5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering)(CROSS CLASSED) 1, Craft (Alchemy) 3, Knowledge (the planes)(CROSS CLASSED) 1,Knowledge (Nature)(CROSS CLASSED) 1
Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Combust, Spell Compendium)
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
You cannot compare your pets AC to the PAO rogue, if, in the same set of posts, you comment that you do not need the armor.
Ok, lets compare.
Rogue has ac30. Thats quite strong as we saw.
Fleshraker pet has ac30 also. Note you haven't even hinted that there are any issues with the companions armor.
Well, other than the pricing issue that was brought up whereby barding costs more than armor, I would have to agree.
Your druid, as a human, can put armor on his animal companion. There is no doubt in my mind that this is possible, as the rules support this.
Btw, (and this is really important) any rules issues I have with any build, please do not take as an attack on the person posting the build. In most cases, there are ways around the issues. The DMM cleric for instance, there was a disagreement on grapples. It came up with a better way of handling them, and the poster has stated that his DMM cleric is more powerful for having done the additional research.
Now lets try throwing a ring of prot +1, amulet of natural armor +1 on the fleshraker. Ac 32. Maybe instead of the con buff (completely redundant as Pouncy takes 6 damage total) he gets a barkskin instead. Whoa look at the ac go!
Yes, if you change the build, then the numbers will be different.
Please make whatever changes you need to your build, let me know when it is legal, and I (or someone else) will examine the posted tactics/numbers to see if it does as well as you show it to work.
If you use the posted build and assume the druid has no armor the entire encounter plays out exactly the same.
That's the thing, I cannot make changes to your build. I can only point out what needs to be changed. Once the build is legal, then we can examine it.
I have a couple questions for you:
The pounce druid drastically outperforms all posted melee (including pao) in combat? (Y/N)
No. The pounce druid has not been examined yet, so as of this point in time, this is inconclusive. Now, based on what you posted, it looks really good, and might do as well. But we don't know yet.
The pounce druid drastically outperforms all posted melee out of combat? (Y/N)
Unsure. The PAO rogue brings a lot of skills to the table.
The pounce druid uses far less consumables than any posted melee? (Y/N)
Um, you used multiple spells to pull this off. Spells are consumable resources.
They have no gold piece cost, but they are a resource, just like my rage.
The pounce druid is capable of defeating as many or more encounters in a day than any of the posted melee? (Y/N)
If it wins CR5, then it ties with cr5, if it wins all of CR6 then it defeats more.
However, there were issues shown in the builds, and once they are legal (i.e. you update the post) and let us know, we can run it through, verifying the numbers/tactics which would answer this question.
The pounce druid is capabale of defeating larger single encounters than any posted melee? (Y/N)
I don't know. So far, my melee only lost to the vampire because of dominate. One round more and I would have defeated it. Or, 50gp more for a potion (and metagaming). So at this stage of the game, he is doing very well.
Edit: As far as the hirelings life being unimportant. You realize Malar is a favored god of a certain stripe of druid, right? It even has mechanical advantages. Argueing the importance of the life of a hireling is the mark of desperation
I have no idea what that deity is, what book it is from, or what mechanical advantages it gives.
As far as the importance of the life of a hireling, in a lot of parties/campaigns, it is a very important thing.
None. These both appear at level 6, and are extremely overpowered at that point.
Sorry, what I meant to say is "What level 5 arcane caster currently posted, can level to level 6 and pull off what you posted?"
Because this is when we stop using the brain and go straight to extreme rulelawyering idioticity The places where we find tigers attacking with the tail and dwarves that defecate gold "because it does not say in the RAW that they do not".
Still don't understand the tail blade thing eh? I mean I've already specifically proven that it works to you specifically, and yet you continue to trot that out, repeatedly not using your brain in doing so.
Let me repeat myself... the tail blade from savage species can be used by ANYTHING with a tail. This is demonstrated in the text in that the example creature, a lizardfolk has no tail attack. Now, you can either accept this and move, or look like an idiot and an ass every time you try to use that as a point.
This in fact a very important point about what can and can't don armor, that shows that I am using my brain. Where is the line drawn between what can can't put armor on by itself? Simply because you can't think past current real world barding and into what types of armor might be developed if we had non-humanoid thinkers doesn't make it a foolish thing to ask.
Now if you forbid any poly/alterself/pao stuff then the casters don't get good until 7th. Still barring any supprise grapple encounters (which are extremely rare outside Meyers contrived set of encounters) there have been a number of casters the perform very well.
When I did not come up with any encounter or creature in them, why is my set of encounters?
Still don't understand the tail blade thing eh? I mean I've already specifically proven that it works to you specifically, and yet you continue to trot that out, repeatedly not using your brain in doing so.
Let me repeat myself... the tail blade from savage species can be used by ANYTHING with a tail. This is demonstrated in the text in that the example creature, a lizardfolk has no tail attack. Now, you can either accept this and move, or look like an idiot and an ass every time you try to use that as a point.
Savage species is 3.0, not 3.5. But a tailblade has nothing to do with this discussion, so lets all drop it.
This in fact a very important point about what can and can't don armor, that shows that I am using my brain. Where is the line drawn between what can can't put armor on by itself? Simply because you can't think past current real world barding and into what types of armor might be developed if we had non-humanoid thinkers doesn't make it a foolish thing to ask.
This is correct, and if WOTC posts a rule on things, then we can talk.
By the way, I looked up barding.
Removing and fitting barding takes five times as long as the figures given on Table: Donning Armor. A barded animal cannot be used to carry any load other than the rider and normal saddlebags.
So what we see here is that it will take 25 rounds to hastily don a chain shirt barding, 50 minutes to don it normally (which makes every spell fall off)
Sorry, what I meant to say is "What level 5 arcane caster currently posted, can level to level 6 and pull off what you posted?"
Any of them just need to pick up enough taint to qualify for Tainted Scholar, which allows them to run around with ungodly amounts of bonus spells and DCs.
In theory, a 5th level character could get in tainted scholar with that one feat from cityscape that gives you an extra skill rank. I avoided it because it's honestly just too broken. It isn't a "casters in the context of the game are overpowered" rather than a "casters in the context of a braindead GM are overpowered, but at that point it doesn't matter because your GM is, well, braindead."
A metamagic stacking build would be fine at lvl 5. In fact, if I didn't pick evocation as a banned school because its higher level power is lackluster (asides from the gems of forcecage and contingency), I would probably have been running around with empowered sanctumed scorching rays that did a little less than twice the damage and were refreshed by the same pearl.
Remeber that we are not talking about a cohort or even a follower here. We are talking about offering some farmer more than he will make this year to come follow for an hour and put some armor on. If he dies and the druid is good, thats sad, but in the end irrelevent for the encounter. If the druid worships Malar he will probably claw the farmer after he has his armor on, give him a couple rounds head start and pounce the crap out of him.
Also note that with a minute break between fights (though I can't see a min between killing the mummy and vamp fight) the short duration buffs don't wear off until the last round of the vampire fight. All encounters except the mummy were defeated in the first round. Vampire took 2 rounds. Hell, if he wanted to stoop to using expendables the druid could buy potions and drink them for the same or even more buffs.
EDIT: Just though of this on my way out the door. Scroll of animal growth. Yeah, I think Pouncy can take either challenge without help. I'll run the numbers tonight when I get home.
Unless that somehow causes any objections, or you missed any old ones, Kaermet has finally procured his win.
Savage species is 3.0, not 3.5. But a tailblade has nothing to do with this discussion, so lets all drop it.
Minor note: Savage Species was actually published as 3.5 compliant (quick example: it uses the Survival skill). I would call it 3.25 in reality.
So what we see here is that it will take 25 rounds to hastily don a chain shirt barding, 50 minutes to don it normally (which makes every spell fall off)
A counter point to this is that it may not be barding that a non-humanoid creature is wearing, but rather 'Armor for Unusual Creatures' as listed in the PHB. This would of course apply more to the fleshraker than those things for which barding was clearly already available such as a horse, and would not suffer the time penalty to don that barding does.
Also note that with a minute break between fights (though I can't see a min between killing the mummy and vamp fight) the short duration buffs don't wear off until the last round of the vampire fight. All encounters except the mummy were defeated in the first round. Vampire took 2 rounds. Hell, if he wanted to stoop to using expendables the druid could buy potions and drink them for the same or even more buffs.
Best case, you have spent 16 rounds before the first encounter (6 rounds for buffs, 10 rounds for donning armor -- assuming it is not barding).
1 round for encounter 1 (17/50)
10 rounds between encounter 1 and 2 (27/50)
1 round for encounter 2 (28/50)
10 rounds between encounter 2 and 3 (38/50)
1 round for encounter 3 (39/50)
10 rounds between encounter 3 and 4 (49/50)
From this point on, one buff falls off every round.
Based on this thread, arcane casters like that do not exist. Or, to put it a different way, none of the arcane casters who participate in this thread have been able to do that at level one.
The level 1 firebolt build? I posted it about 25 pages back. Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics, Spelltouched Evocations Trait, 2 flaws for Sudden Empower and Sudden maximize. Easily done. The build is less viable at level 5, but Alix the Fiery does similar to great effect.
Would DMM Cleric have been as good at level 4 (pre level 3 spells?)
Level 4, persisting 6 spells (using a rod of extend):
1) Cloud of Knives (PHB 2) - Free action, launch a knife each round within 30 feet, attack bonus +7, damage 1d6+1
2) Shield of Faith (PHB 1) +2 AC
3) Aid (PHB 1) +1 Moral to attack and damage, 1d8+4 temp HP)
4) Divine Favour (PHB 1) +1 luck to attack/damage
5) Ice Gauntlet (SpC) Magical Spiked Gauntlet, +1d4 cold damage.
6) Balor Nimbus (SpC) - 6d6 if anyone grapples me.
So, with AC 23, and attack of +7 (3 base, 1 str, 1 moral, 1 luck, 1 magic) for 2d4+3 damage, an attack at +7 for 1d6+1 damage.
Sure, it's not as great, but it is still potent.
One of the other contentions we see all the time is how much easier it is to make casters than noncasters.
Do we? Perhaps you see that contention, but I don't. I see the contention that it is easier to make a caster more powerful than a non-caster. Building an optimized character takes time regardless.
Best case, you have spent 16 rounds before the first encounter (6 rounds for buffs, 10 rounds for donning armor -- assuming it is not barding).
1 round for encounter 1 (17/50)
10 rounds between encounter 1 and 2 (27/50)
1 round for encounter 2 (28/50)
10 rounds between encounter 2 and 3 (38/50)
1 round for encounter 3 (39/50)
10 rounds between encounter 3 and 4 (49/50)
From this point on, one buff falls off every round.
The spells are cast in the following order.
Magic Weapon
Venomfire
Bears endurance
Cats grace
Bull strength
Notice the first 2 have very long durations.
Care to comment on how balanced a large sized fleshraker with 10/magic dr, a strength in the mid 30s a touch ac of 29-32ish etc etc is?
Any bets on Pouncys ability to completely solo the Crypt or the CR5 challenge if the animal aura is discounted?
Now go back and look at all the times the druid is attacked in the CR5 challenge. There are no instances when his armor is tested. If you want to contest that the manticore spikes him instead of his identical dino friend then he hides (+16 hide v 9 spot) until the manticore is out of spikes (24 per day max).
So as submitted the numbers for the cr5 build are valid. Examine it closely if you like and then put it up in the first post noting that it is the only build to sucessfully beat all challenges. If you want you can also note that it spent less gold than any other build, used no non-renewable resources, finished the challenge in the fewest rounds posted by a huge margin, took the least damage etc.
Look, who cares if the hireling dies.
His friends and family.
Here's an interesting question: where does it say that a fleshraker or other non-humanoid can't put armor on? Can you point me to something that would be a reason why an intelligent creature couldn't make or have made armor that not only fit it, but was capable of being put on by said creature without any help?
Where does it say that a dead character can't perform actions?
I'll tell you why a Fleshraker can't put on armor: It doesn't have thumbs, and armor has buckles.
Speaking is a free action and you know that.
And a Handle Animal check to Push an animal (get it to perform a trick it doesn't know, for example) is a full round action.
I'll tell you why a Fleshraker can't put on armor: It doesn't have thumbs, and armor has buckles.
Would a human missing his thumbs then be unable to don armor?
In fact I don't think buckles require thumbs to use. *checks* Nope, I can put on a belt and buckle it without using my thumbs in form (I can also put it on and buckle it one handed without using my thumbs :D ).
Thumbs are not a preq. to putting on armor, and not all armor has buckles anyways. Should I believe that a fleshraker couldn't get a simple chain shirt (sized for it) on? Should I believe that a druid fleshraker couldn't use it's mouth and claws to tie knots or fasten buckles (we see the use of the mouth in such a manner in war movies all the time)?
And a Handle Animal check to Push an animal (get it to perform a trick it doesn't know, for example) is a full round action.
Not for a druid. It's only a move action to push it, and a free action for handling.
His friends and family.
Maybe next time I'll optimize a build to please random peasants.
If this was made a part of the origional challenge then the druid could donate starting cash -1100gp to random peon and will by a landslide.
I'm going to assume that if anyone posts quibbles this small they mean that is the largest problem they can find with the build submitted. If its not then focus on the big problems.
Jack the Commoner
Commoner 5
Str: 8 Dex: 14 Con: 13 Int: 12 Wis: 10 Cha: 16
HP: 19
AC: 10
Skills: Diplomacy +4 (+12), Animal Handling +6, Speak Draconic (2 sp)
Feat: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Negotiator
Gold:
Five Oxen (Bison)
Potion of Invisibility
Jack goes to slay the dragon. He buys five fat oxen. As he travels, a manticore sees a him with five oxen. Does the manticore prefer a nice, juicy ox or a scrawny human? The manticore optimizes on the ox, kills it, chows down, and crawls off to sleep. Manticore does not want to keep the oxen as it only frightens them and they run away. You can't preserve them if you kill them. On a full belly, it's just not worth it. Jack keeps going.
Jack arrives at a cave. Jack pushes an ox into the cave. The snake eats the ox. Snake crawls off to sleep. Jack keeps going.
The oxen won't go past the wraith. Jack figures that is must be something bad. Jack drinks the potion of invisibility to slip past both the wraith. Jack encounters the rug and dies horribly.
Jack meets the dragon, and explains how he came looking for a lost relative, and how his train of fat, juicy oxen are stuck back in the cave. He makes a fair case that that if the dragon lets him live, he can care for the oxen to keep them fat, and the dragon can eat the oxen when he gets hungry. However, Jack can't safely go outside with the danger out there, so to keep his new oxen safe, the dragon kills the rug, the shadow, the snake, and the manticore . (DC 15 for Unfriendly to Indifferent, 85%. DC 25 Hostile to Indifferent 35%). Jack then takes the oxen out to graze and runs away while the dragon isn't looking, leaving the oxen behind. The dragon will certainly want his oxen, but it is unlikely to follow a skinny, poor commoner. Just in case, Jack also leaves all his money on the oxen so that the dragon won't hunt him down over a slighted copper piece.
Edit:
1. Updated to Elite Array and Level 5. Using PC wealth, as everyone else gets to use PC wealth. Add the Negotiator feat. Answered a few questions.
Not for a druid. It's only a move action to push it, and a free action for handling.
That only applies to his animal companion.
Maybe next time I'll optimize a build to please random peasants.
If this was made a part of the origional challenge then the druid could donate starting cash -1100gp to random peon and will by a landslide.
I'm going to assume that if anyone posts quibbles this small they mean that is the largest problem they can find with the build submitted. If its not then focus on the big problems.
:facepalm: That was a joke.
Just for fun... (and you can certainly poke holes in this)
Jack the Commoner
Commoner 1
This character is level 1, not level 5 per the challenge
Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con: 10 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 10
This is not the elite array
Five Oxen (Bison)
Potion of Invisibility
I assume you are using the NPC wealth by level chart? Else you cannot afford this at level 1.
As he travels, a manticore sees a him with five oxen. Does the manticore prefer a nice, juicy ox or a scrawny human? The manticore optimizes on the ox, kills it, chows down, and crawls off to sleep. Jack keeps going.
Why doesn't the manticore want them all?
The oxen won't go past the wraith. Jack figures that is must be something bad. Jack drinks the potion of invisibility to slip past both the wraith and the rug.
Jack doesn't know that the rug is animated. It will surprise him and kill him.
Jack meets the dragon, and explains how he came looking for a lost relative, and how his train of fat, juicy oxen are stuck back in the cave. He makes a fair case that that if the dragon lets him live, he can care for the oxen to keep them fat, and the dragon can eat the oxen when he gets hungry. However, Jack can't safely go outside with the danger out there, so to keep his new oxen safe, the dragon kills the rug, the shadow, the snake, and the manticore . (Diplomacy +5 vs. Sense Motive +0). Jack then takes the oxen out to graze and runs away while the dragon isn't looking, leaving the oxen behind. The dragon will certainly want his oxen, but it is unlikely to follow a skinny, poor commoner. Just in case, Jack also leaves all his money on the oxen so that the dragon won't hunt him down over a slighted copper piece.
Diplomacy of a 15 (taking a 10) results in changing the dragon's attitude one step. This is probably not high enough.
And no, you used all your expendable resources.
Addition of Greater Luminous Armor. Now the druid and companion have +8 armor not +4 and enemies have -4 to hit them in melee.
Addition of Heart of Air and Heart of Water. Free action to cast Freedom of Movement, light fortification. Now grapples don't work even if the druid and pet weren't strong enough to wrestle anything in thier CR range into submission.
I'm assuming you agree that the druid without armor has no issues and easilly qualifies for the strongest build submitted to date Meyer?
I have an additional challenge. Since so many people beat the CR5 encounter how about all the winners try it again but face 2 of each of the monsters listed instead of just 1? I'm pretty sure the druid still wins, I'm equally sure no non-caster comes close.
Edit: Stat snippet for the druid + pet using Greater Luminous Armor and Animal Growth scrolls. Just for giggles. (Total cost ~1800g I think? Still by far the lowest cash outlay)
Druid
Hp 46
Init +6
Speed 50
Armor 31, flatfoot 25 touch 16
Attack: 2 claw +9 (1d6 + 5 + poison + 5d6acid), bite +7 (1d6) + tail + 7(1d6 + poison + 5d6 acid)
Special attacks: Leaping pounce, rake
Special Qualities: Opponents in melee take -4 to hit (Effective ACs of 35, 29 and 20)
Pouncy (Large animal)
Ac 34 touch 15 flat footed 28
Init +6
SPeed 50
Attributes 30,22,23,2,14,12
Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (1d8 + 10 + poison), Bite +11 melee (1d8 +5), Tail +11 melee (1d8 +5 + poison)
Special attacks: Poison(Dc 19, 1d6dex/1d6dex +5d6 acid), rake 1d6 +2, rend 2d6 + 8
Special Qualities: DR 10/magic, scent, low-light visition, Opponents in melee have -4 to hit (AC 38,19,32)
:D
It takes time to run these things through ... I am not ignoring them and have updated the first post with ones I need to re-run.
The non-casters just seem to be doing their best to imitate the caster's tactics with charged items and UMD. Surely, there must be more non-caster builds out there that can show-case some true "non-caster" fighting tactics?
And not to be harsh, but I still think Meyer_William's Orc entry has a few problems with the first set of CR5 encounters. Using "Up the Hill" skill trick for flying movement? Highly questionable. Going from prone position to flying charge with no real action cost? Highly questionable. (Read the old Rules of the Game articles on flying movement, Skip Williams thinks flying creatures cannot be prone at all, nor can they charge while gaining more than 5 feet of altitude without perfect maneuverability.) Then, a Manticore with 5 hp, faced with a decision of A)trying to move past its opponent launching a fly-by attack, drawing an AOO and dying, B)stalling out due to clumsy flight maneuverability, falling to its death, or C)flinging one more round of spikes at its opponent and living happily ever after, it would choose A or B and not C?
Later on, more meta-gaming occurs when the old CR2 dungeon is now packed with huge CR5 opponents, but the physical layout of the cave "must remain the same"? The original description of the rug's room from page 4 :
The corridor continues on, varying between 5' to 10' in width. You're attacked without warning. Choker
Eventually you reach a large 15' wide, 20' long chamber. The walls are packed with artwork, fine furniture, and other treasure-horde type stuff. The floor is covered by a pair of fine rugs. As you cross the second of the rugs, it attacks you. Medium animated object: rug
Originally, the room had a rug that covered 1 out of its 12 5'x5' squares. When I suggested that the room should probably be scaled up accordingly for the CR5 huge rug, it was deemed "not fair"? I guess what it really meant was that the melee fighter needed to be able to escape safely into the narrow tunnel, where the rug could not charge or even maneuver effectively at all, giving the Orc time to run away/heal/refresh maneuvers/buff up/etc., then return with a new massive, front-loaded damage attack.
So far, I have to admit the caster builds are much more impressive in their ability to handle variations of tactics and geography of the encounters in their wins.
This is the only way to do something like this, readers cannot be forced to read the entire thread to figure out what the build really is.
I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class man (IHSAMPTYECM for short)
Druid 5
Dex 8
Feats
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Multiattack
Improved Grapple has a pre-req of dex of 13, you do not qualify for this so you cannot take the feat.
You list two feats gotten from flaws, but do not have any flaws listed.
Wildshaped stats
Hp: 46
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Armor:27 flatfoot 21 touch 16
Attack: 2 claw +9 (1d6 + 5 + poison + 5d6acid), bite +7 (1d6) + tail + 7(1d6 + poison + 5d6 acid)
Special attacks: Leaping pounce, rake
Special Qualities:
Saves:
Abilities: 21,23,19,12,14,13
I don't have MM3, so I do not know pre-buff stats. So I cannot see if this is correct. Can someone PM me the stats?
Pouncy the Wonderlizard
HD 6d8
The closest thing I can find is a thing on the WOTC page for Meepo a were-fleshraker which has stats a lot lower than this... but it implies that this is a 4hd monster, not a 6hd monster. From the reading of the feat "Natural Bond" plus the Alternate Animal companions, I do not think these stack. The druid handbook seems to agree with me on this, as it says it is up to the DM. Things that are less debatable it states as fact.
Strategy
vs Manticore
My spot is +10 and my hide is +16 the manticore has a +9 spot and +1 hide. I think its safe to assume we see it first.
We sneak to within 30 feet and pounce, first the druid then the dino.
I assume daylight, as you do not have darkvision. It can shoot its spikes 180 feet. You say you are sneaking, I would assume this is the no penalty to movement rate technique (1/2 movement or lower, 25 feet). Lets start the encounter at the 250' you mention for your summoner. It can be closer if you prefer, but remember that you are casting spells and turning into the fleshraker.
Round 1: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Venomfire (5 hours)
Round 2: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Magic fang (50 rounds), I assume claws are the target.
Round 3: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Speak with Animals (50 Rounds) MF(49)
Round 4: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Cats Grace (50 rounds), S/A (49), MF (48)
Round 5: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Bulls Strength (50 rounds), CG (49), S/A (48), MF (47)
Round 6: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Cast Bear's Endurance (50 rounds), BS (49), CG(48), S/A (47), MF (46)
Round 7: (250' away). Manticore does not see you per your post
Turn into fleshraker, move 25' (half your move at no penalty).
Fleshraker moves 50' (two half moves, starting -25 from you, ending +25 from you)
BE (49 rounds, or 56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 8: (175' away). Manticore does not see you per your post.
You move 50' (two half moves starting -25 from the fleshraker, ending +25 from the fleshraker)
It moves 50'
BE (56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 9: (125' away). Manticore does not see you per your post.
You move 50' (two half moves starting -25 from the fleshraker, ending +25 from the fleshraker)
It moves 50'
BE (56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 10: (125' away). Manticore does not see you per your post.
You move 50' (two half moves starting -25 from the fleshraker, ending +25 from the fleshraker)
It moves 50'
BE (56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 11: (75' away). Manticore does not see you per your post.
You move 50' (two half moves starting -25 from the fleshraker, ending +25 from the fleshraker)
It moves 50'
BE (56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 12: (25' away). Manticore does not see you per your post.
You move 50' (two half moves starting -25 from the fleshraker, ending +25 from the fleshraker)
It moves 15' (10' from manticore)
BE (56-turn number), BS (-1), CG(-2), S/A (-3), MF (-4)
Round 13: You surprise and kill it (unsure of your numbers).
Round 14-20: Movement.
Round 21: Use the trick you mentioned to show the light.
Round 21-23: Movement (10 rounds total)
Snake sees light from you before you smell it. It readies an action to attack.
Round 24:
Pouncy does a leaping charge at the snake. Snakes readied action goes off. It misses. It gets its AoO, it misses (based off your numbers)
Poucy claw (+13 vs ac 15) 90/50 success, hits for 10 physical damage + 17 acid, fort save vs poison (dc 17 vs 8fort, 40% fail 40/50) saved.
Pouncy claw 2 (+13 vs ac 15) 180/150 hits for 10 physical 17 acid fort save fails, 3 dex damage (80/150)
Pouncy bite, (+8 vs ac 15 70% success) 250/250 damage 6 physical
Pouncy rake, (+8 vs ac 15) 320/350 miss
Pouncy tail (+8 vs ac15) 390/350 hit 6 physical, 17 acid, poison saved (120/150)
Total damage 32 physical, 51 acid. Snake is dead.
Round 24 - 33 movement.
Round 34 - wraith.
Approaches druid attempts touch (+5 vs 17 touch ac, 40/50)
Correction, druid's flatfooted touch AC is 10, +5 vs 10 = 80%, hit. 1 save needed
Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.
If this is a straight corridor > 100 feet, Pouncy runs (flees at top speed). If there is a straight line <= 100 feet, pouncy withdraws (flees at top speed).
Either way, Pouncy's enchanments fall off.
Druid full attacks (based on your numbers)
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
Claw +9 vs ac 15 150/150 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
I don't have the exact text of venomfire, but from the blurbs I can see in other people's posts,
The Venomfire spell causes subjects venom to become caustic, dealing 1d6 acid dmg per caster level. This spell has a duration of an hour a level.
But undead are:
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
I am going to ignore one of the two attacks for the 50% miss chance.
End of round 34: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith: 23
Round 35:
Wraith hits 40% (120%, missing)
Druid (75%, 150%) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 35: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 14
Round 36:
Wraith hits 40% (160%, hitting) 2.5 damage, save needed.
Druid (75%, 225) misses
End of Round 36: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 14
Round 37:
Wraith hits 40% (200%, missing).
Druid (75%, 300) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 37: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 5
Round 38:
Wraith hits 40% (240%, missing).
Druid (75%, 375) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 37: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith dead
Round 39 - 48: Travel.
Rug attempts grapple +6 vs ac 10(flat footed touch) 85/50 hit attempts grapple (+19 vs +12 85/50) grappled.
Druid takes 14 damage from the grapple.
Pouncy pounces on the rug.
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
(assuming all hit)
Grapple (+12 v +19) 15/50 failed
End of round 49: Druid: -16.5 +1 save Rug 60 left
Round 50
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned)
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
Druid unpins, is now just grappled.
End of round 50, Druid -30.5 +1 save, Rug 36
Round 51:
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned)
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
Druid unpins, is now just grappled.
End of Round 51, Druid - 44.5, Rug 12
Round 52:
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned) - Druid Dies.
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
End of Round 53: Druid Dead, Rug Dead.
Controversy makes longer threads than construction.
Improved Grapple has a pre-req of dex of 13, you do not qualify for this so you cannot take the feat.
He does while Wildshaped.
And not to be harsh, but I still think Meyer_William's Orc entry has a few problems with the first set of CR5 encounters. Using "Up the Hill" skill trick for flying movement? Highly questionable. Going from prone position to flying charge with no real action cost? Highly questionable. (Read the old Rules of the Game articles on flying movement, Skip Williams thinks flying creatures cannot be prone at all, nor can they charge while gaining more than 5 feet of altitude without perfect maneuverability.)
This article is before skill tricks. This would be similar to saying "you cannot charge up a hill because thats how it works" ignoring the skill trick.
Then, a Manticore with 5 hp, faced with a decision of A)trying to move past its opponent launching a fly-by attack, drawing an AOO and dying, B)stalling out due to clumsy flight maneuverability, falling to its death, or C)flinging one more round of spikes at its opponent and living happily ever after, it would choose A or B and not C?
This is noted in my write-up (scoring), so this is not something new.
Later on, more meta-gaming occurs when the old CR2 dungeon is now packed with huge CR5 opponents, but the physical layout of the cave "must remain the same"? The original description of the rug's room from page 4 :
Originally, the room had a rug that covered 1 out of its 12 5'x5' squares. When I suggested that the room should probably be scaled up accordingly for the CR5 huge rug, it was deemed "not fair"? I guess what it really meant was that the melee fighter needed to be able to escape safely into the narrow tunnel, where the rug could not charge or even maneuver effectively at all, giving the Orc time to run away/heal/refresh maneuvers/buff up/etc., then return with a new massive, front-loaded damage attack.
My contention was that saying "actually the room is X by Y, so you lose". I suggested that if the room was 4 times as big, I succeeded. This is not metagaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
Improved Grapple has a pre-req of dex of 13, you do not qualify for this so you cannot take the feat.
He does while Wildshaped.
He cannot CHOOSE improved grapple at level 3, when he does not have wild shape. Since he does not meet the feat pre-reqs, he cannot take the feat.
The Venomfire spell causes subjects venom to become caustic, dealing 1d6 acid dmg per caster level. This spell has a duration of an hour a level.
Immunity to poison
What?
Reading Unnatural Aura, the animal only panics if "forced" to approach within 30 feet, the druid never "forces" the dino to approach, he specifically allows him to hang back out of the range of the ability. In addition, it says "they remain panicked as long as they are within that range", it doesn't have to keep running away once it passes the 30 foot threshold.
Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
Per my bolded section, they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
So, your contention is that the animal intelligent (2) creature, is running pell-mell, hits the edge of the 30' barrier, and comes to a complete stop. And, that the animal is outside the 30' from the wraith, but within the 30' from the druid?
This article is before skill tricks. This would be similar to saying "you cannot charge up a hill because thats how it works" ignoring the skill trick.
It doesn't change the fact that reading "Up the Hill" indicates that it really should only apply to land based movement, not flying, climbing, burrowing, swimming, etc. It specifically allows to you negociate the difficult terrain of "stairs" and "steep slopes", but aerial movement has a completely different system for determining how fast you can ascend/descend. I am saying the two things just don't mesh well, and you claiming "Up the Hill" allowing any angle of aerial charging is at best "highly dubious" and not something any DM is going to allow by default. You still haven't addressed the issue of transitioning from prone to "instant aerial up the hill charge".
My contention was that saying "actually the room is X by Y, so you lose". I suggested that if the room was 4 times as big, I succeeded. This is not metagaming.
I admit I have not examined the numbers as closely as you have, but it seemed to me like you were very low on HP and needed to get far enough away from the rug that it could not charge you. If the room was large enough that you could not escape into the narrow tunnel with just the tumbling 1/2 move plus the sudden leap, you would die.
What?
If the creature is immune to poison, then how is it taking (acid) damage from poison?
Per my bolded section, they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
So, your contention is that the animal intelligent (2) creature, is running pell-mell, hits the edge of the 30' barrier, and comes to a complete stop. And, that the animal is outside the 30' from the wraith, but within the 30' from the druid?
As long as they are not forced into the 30foot range, they do not become panicked. It doesn't matter what the conditions are for them to "remain panincked" if they never become panicked in the first place. It is absolutely possible to be 30 feet away from the druid and more than 30 feet away from the wraith, assuming the druid is on the same side of the passageway as the dinosaur companion. The dinosaur will be right at the limit for both.
Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
Per my bolded section, they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
It is never forced to approach within 30 feet. So it never panics in the first place. So the second part of the sentence that you bolded never kicks in.
Isn't this the exact inverse of what you argued regarding grapples?
For grapples, you said:
It is a melee attack, but a different kind of melee attack, so it isn't a melee attack.
For this, you say:
It is poison damage, but a different kind of poison damage, so it still is poison damage.
Contradiction much?
It doesn't change the fact that reading "Up the Hill" indicates that it really should only apply to land based movement, not flying, climbing, burrowing, swimming, etc.
Where does it say this? Remember, this is character optimization boards where sane judgements (alter self into a dwarven ancestor) does not apply.
It specifically allows to you negociate the difficult terrain of "stairs" and "steep slopes", but aerial movement has a completely different system for determining how fast you can ascend/descend. I am saying the two things just don't mesh well, and you claiming "Up the Hill" allowing any angle of aerial charging is at best "highly dubious" and not something any DM is going to allow by default.
Is a 45% angle a steep slope? What rules as written are you using to discount this?
You still haven't addressed the issue of transitioning from prone to "instant aerial up the hill charge".
Why do I need to? This is not Air Walk, I do not physically walk/run.
I admit I have not examined the numbers as closely as you have, but it seemed to me like you were very low on HP and needed to get far enough away from the rug that it could not charge you. If the room was large enough that you could not escape into the narrow tunnel with just the tumbling 1/2 move plus the sudden leap, you would die.
Could be. But my contention is still that saying "lets change the size of the room after he posts tactics which causes him to fail" is metagaming.
As long as they are not forced into the 30foot range, they do not become panicked. It doesn't matter what the conditions are for them to "remain panincked" if they never become panicked in the first place. It is absolutely possible to be 30 feet away from the druid and more than 30 feet away from the wraith, assuming the druid is on the same side of the passageway as the dinosaur companion. The dinosaur will be right at the limit for both.
So, you are telling me that when a wraith walks up to an animal, the animal and the wraith can sit there and chat? And is not panicked?
Because it doesn't have acid resistance and it is acid damage?
Isn't this the exact inverse of what you argued regarding grapples?
For grapples, you said:
It is a melee attack, but a different kind of melee attack, so it isn't a melee attack.
I said "Initiating a grapple is a melee attack which deals no damage, a grapple check (later in the round) is what deals the damage, which is not a melee attack"
For this, you say:
It is poison damage, but a different kind of poison damage, so it still is poison damage.
Contradiction much?
Based on the limited text I have of the spell description, it says that the poison deals the damage. If it is immune to poison, it is immune to poison.
As long as they are not forced into the 30foot range, they do not become panicked. It doesn't matter what the conditions are for them to "remain panincked" if they never become panicked in the first place. It is absolutely possible to be 30 feet away from the druid and more than 30 feet away from the wraith, assuming the druid is on the same side of the passageway as the dinosaur companion. The dinosaur will be right at the limit for both.
Correct, but it is really easy for the wraith to fix that.
Based on the limited text I have of the spell description, it says that the poison deals the damage. If it is immune to poison, it is immune to poison.
It is highly analogous to using energy substitution on a fireball spell to do ice damage.
"You have posion damage. You transmute it, so that it does acid damage."
"You have fire damage. You transmute it, so that it does cold damage."
And yet you are trying to inform the people on the character optimization forums, based on a summarized reading of a book you don't possess, that immunity to poison counts as immunity to acid in this case?
Preposterous.
This seems ridiculous to me.
It is highly analogous to using energy substitution on a fireball spell to do ice damage.
"You have posion damage. You transmute it, so that it does acid damage."
"You have fire damage. You transmute it, so that it does cold damage."
And yet you are trying to inform the people on the character optimization forums, based on a summarized reading of a book you don't possess, that immunity to poison counts as immunity to acid in this case?
Preposterous.
Hopefully someone can post the actual text of the spell.
If the spell says "poison is replaced by acid" then immunity to poison does not work.
If the spell says "poison deals acid damage" then immunity to poison works.
Where does it say this? Remember, this is character optimization boards where sane judgements (alter self into a dwarven ancestor) does not apply.
Is a 45% angle a steep slope? What rules as written are you using to discount this?
I would say that, in this context, a "steep slope" is a terrain feature involving earth and rock and dirt and stuff, especially since it is used in the same sentence with "stairs" (a similar man-made terrain feature). A DM may or may not allow it to apply to other movement modes, and I would be especially wary of applying it to flying which has its own very specific rules for ascending/descending.
Why do I need to? This is not Air Walk, I do not physically walk/run.
You "need to" for several reasons :
1)The "rules as written" don't prevent you from being in a prone position while flying, so you take the attack penalty of fighting while prone even in the air until you take a move-equivalent action to re-orient your position so it is no longer "prone".
2)The rules of the game article indicated that "flying creatures cannot drop prone".
My real point is that the rules are in fact very murky here and I think most DMs will impose some sort of action penalty upon you to "un-prone" yourself before charging "up the hill" at the manticore. Since you cannot afford the manticore to make even one more volley of spikes, I think your victory here vitally depends on some very sketchy rules arguments.
Could be. But my contention is still that saying "lets change the size of the room after he posts tactics which causes him to fail" is metagaming.
And my contention is still that saying "let's cram 15 foot wide creatures into 5 foot wide passages where I can beat up on them due to the ridiculous squeezing penalties" is metagaming.
If the spell says "poison deals acid damage" then immunity to poison works.
No it doesn't, it's acid damage.
I question how under ANY circumstances EVER immunity to POISON could protect from ACID damage.
J'accuste! You just want poison to protect from acid damage, because it leaves the player the pain in the arse task of changing the build so it can handle that task.
Also, I similarly question your use of "up-hill" charge in the air. I see a distinct lack of hills for you to charge up.
Correct, but it is really easy for the wraith to fix that.
And now who is meta-gaming? Why would the wraith feel the need to try and approach the dinosaur that is just hanging back and not approaching when it has another perfectly juicy target standing right next to it? The undead would most likely just try to kill this pesky dinosaur next to it, then move on to kill the one behind it.
Does it somehow magically know that if it can just get close enough to the dinosaur in the rear, it can knock off some buffs that will cause the druid to die to its buddy the animated rug in the next room, avenging its own destruction? I would rate this meta-gaming as being far worse than the suicidal manticore who wants to melee the guy who just knocked it from full hp to 5 hp...
Hopefully someone can post the actual text of the spell.
If the spell says "poison is replaced by acid" then immunity to poison does not work.
If the spell says "poison deals acid damage" then immunity to poison works.
Isn't this situation identical to you using your "Burning Blade" ability to deal fire damage to the swarm immune to melee damage. It adds elemental damage to the attack form. The damage still takes effect even if the target makes the save v. the poison. I don't see the problem here.
Isn't this situation identical to you using your "Burning Blade" ability to deal fire damage to the swarm immune to melee damage. It adds elemental damage to the attack form. The damage still takes effect even if the target makes the save v. the poison. I don't see the problem here.
The difference is that I added elemental damage to the weapon, which then did (weapon damage) + (elemental damage).
We do not know what the spell does. If it makes the poisoned attack deal (claw damage) + (poison effect) + (elemental damage), or if it deals (claw damage ) + (poison effect which includes elemental damage)
You need to post what the spell does.
Still melee elemental damage. Nothing in swarm subtype indicates that elemental melee damage actually works against swarms to my awareness.
I think the swarm entry in the MM (AFB at the moment) specifically mentions weapons with elemental effects being able to damage them.
Traits
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
I don't see it.
Vulnerabilities of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities,
as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
From the online SRD in the actual description of the swarm creature, not the type.
Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Edit: GAH, CURSED NINJAS! :D
Blah. Gotcha. :P Swarms have too many rules, considering how rarely they are used, and how quickly they die against most parties.
I hear ya. One of my DMs has a morbid fascination with them, I never use them much myself. Although, I seem to recall some nasty momma bug in MM3 that could release a fairly rough swarm from its arse.
They normally deal str damage or con damage or wis damage, etc, etc.
Thus, poison immunity sucks by that logic, because no poison deals poison damage. They deal stat damage and cause other ill efects such as sleep or death.
Or, just admit that poison immunity means the monster is freaking immune to all efects of the poison, including poison buffs, and come back with another trick. C'mon it is the druid, the master of all classes. He does everything better than everybody! He can just turn undead...No. Hmm, magic missile? Crap. Cheesy interpretation of the rules? Yeah that's more like it.
As for the wraith panicking the dinossaurs, why would it attack the strongest /armored/buffed/ acid poison dripping dinossaur when there are other much weaker dinossaurs at hand? Or are you telling me that after all those buffs and equipment you're still perfectly equal to the other dinossaurs?
There are really few poisons that deal "poison damage". I actually don't remember any now in 3.5.
They normally deal str damage or con damage or wis damage, etc, etc.
Thus, poison immunity sucks by that logic, because no poison deals poison damage. They deal stat damage and cause other ill efects such as sleep or death.
Or, just admit that poison immunity means the monster is freaking immune to all efects of the poison, including poison buffs, and come back with another trick. C'mon it is the druid, the master of all classes. He does everything better than everybody! He can just turn undead...No. Hmm, magic missile? Crap. Cheesy interpretation of the rules? Yeah that's more like it.
Are the snide comments really necessary? I don't think Ikeren believes that caustic venom will react with chalk despite chalk having no metabolism just because he wants the druid to win.
You cause the subject's venom to become caustic, dealing an additional d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use.
It can be read either way. Venom as bodily fluid is seperate from poison, Venom as poison means that it is the poison doing damage. The first makes more sense, and would be how I'd interpret it as DM. I've also explicitly banned this spell as DM.
Improved Grapple has a pre-req of dex of 13, you do not qualify for this so you cannot take the feat.
Incorrect, it can be taken but it cannot be used unless my dex happens to be 13 at the time. The fleshraker more than qualifies.
You list two feats gotten from flaws, but do not have any flaws listed.
I know. One will be shakey -2 to hit with ranged. I don't know what the other will be but it could be pathetic (any stat but con or wis).
The closest thing I can find is a thing on the WOTC page for Meepo a were-fleshraker which has stats a lot lower than this... but it implies that this is a 4hd monster, not a 6hd monster. From the reading of the feat "Natural Bond" plus the Alternate Animal companions, I do not think these stack. The druid handbook seems to agree with me on this, as it says it is up to the DM. Things that are less debatable it states as fact.
Actually the Natural Bond cancels out the penalty due to advanced companion.
Round 14-20: Movement.
No mention of downtime between fights in the origional post that I saw.
Round 21: Use the trick you mentioned to show the light.
[/Quote}
Or done as part of a move action equivilent to drawing a weapon.Snake sees light from you before you smell it. It readies an action to attack.
Round 24:
Pouncy does a leaping charge at the snake. Snakes readied action goes off. It misses. It gets its AoO, it misses (based off your numbers)
Poucy claw (+13 vs ac 15) 90/50 success, hits for 10 physical damage + 17 acid, fort save vs poison (dc 17 vs 8fort, 40% fail 40/50) saved.
Pouncy claw 2 (+13 vs ac 15) 180/150 hits for 10 physical 17 acid fort save fails, 3 dex damage (80/150)
Pouncy bite, (+8 vs ac 15 70% success) 250/250 damage 6 physical
Pouncy rake, (+8 vs ac 15) 320/350 miss
Pouncy tail (+8 vs ac15) 390/350 hit 6 physical, 17 acid, poison saved (120/150)
Total damage 32 physical, 51 acid. Snake is dead.
Round 24 - 33 movement.
It may see the light coming but I see it hiding long before it gets to go. I have spot remeber. Thats even assuming there is enough cover for it to hide in.Round 34 - wraith.
Correction, druid's flatfooted touch AC is 10, +5 vs 10 = 80%, hit. 1 save needed
If this is a straight corridor > 100 feet, Pouncy runs (flees at top speed). If there is a straight line <= 100 feet, pouncy withdraws (flees at top speed).
Either way, Pouncy's enchanments fall off.
Druid full attacks (based on your numbers)
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
I don't have the exact text of venomfire, but from the blurbs I can see in other people's posts,
But undead are:
I am going to ignore one of the two attacks for the 50% miss chance.
End of round 34: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith: 23
Round 35:
Wraith hits 40% (120%, missing)
Druid (75%, 150%) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 35: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 14
Round 36:
Wraith hits 40% (160%, hitting) 2.5 damage, save needed.
Druid (75%, 225) misses
End of Round 36: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 14
Round 37:
Wraith hits 40% (200%, missing).
Druid (75%, 300) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 37: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith 5
Round 38:
Wraith hits 40% (240%, missing).
Druid (75%, 375) hits for 9 damage
End of Round 37: Druid 2.5 damage, 1 save needed: Wraith dead
Nice metagaming. Sorry though, as mentioned he isn't forced into the area. If he did get forced in he would simply move out and stop not run 100' feet away. Nice try though.
As for the Venomfire. It transforms the poison into acid. So you get a dose of acid every time you are attacked and its poisonous to boot. Being immune to the poison (and so stat damage) doesn't negate the acid. Thats like saying if you use a flaming longsword on a red dragon its immune because its pointy metal that is also on fire. In this case you are smeared with acid that is also poisonous. So as posted the wraith dies signifigantly faster.Druid takes 14 damage from the grapple.
Pouncy pounces on the rug.
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
(assuming all hit)
Grapple (+12 v +19) 15/50 failed
End of round 49: Druid: -16.5 +1 save Rug 60 left
Round 50
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned)
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
Druid unpins, is now just grappled.
End of round 50, Druid -30.5 +1 save, Rug 36
Round 51:
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned)
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
Druid unpins, is now just grappled.
End of Round 51, Druid - 44.5, Rug 12
Round 52:
Rug grapple (+19 v +12) 170/150 grappled Druid takes 14 damage (druid pinned) - Druid Dies.
Pouncy full attacks the rug
Claw +10 vs ac 13 95/50 hit 8 phys
Claw +10 vs ac 13 190/150 hit 8 phys
Bite +5 vs ac 13 270/250 hit 4 phys
Rake +5 vs ac 13 350/350 hit 4 phys
End of Round 53: Druid Dead, Rug Dead.
Missing acid damage. Also when not pinned the druid can claw/bite/rake the rug.
Thanks for verifying my numbers, feel free to update page 1. Unless you think the dragon is going to be a threat.
I've also explicitly banned this spell as DM.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating this build as being a super balanced and fun build to play. Most GM's would balk at at least one element of the build. Thats not part of the question we are looking at though as any Gm would address balance issues quickly.
I actually don't play druids. Ever. Well once, when an online group told me "Ok, no powergaming is allowed. Oh, by the way we need a naturey type so roll a druid."
Incorrect, it can be taken but it cannot be used unless my dex happens to be 13 at the time. The fleshraker more than qualifies.
Actually, that's not true. From the SRD:
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
You can't select the feat if you don't meet prereqs.
I do meet the pre-reqs. Just not all the time. Thats good enough. I'm sure someone can point you at the proper rule.
But you can't Wildshape until 5th level, so even if you're right about that being good enough, you can't take the feat at third level because you can't Wildshape.
But you can't Wildshape until 5th level, so even if you're right about that being good enough, you can't take the feat at third level because you can't Wildshape.
I don't have to Wildshape to have a 13 dex.
I don't have to Wildshape to have a 13 dex.
Shouldn't your method be included in your build somewhere then?
I will be tweaking the pounce build a little bit in an attempt to fight 2 of each encounter in the CR5 challenge by using ~1800 in expendables later tonight. The rules for making a charecter changed after I submitted the druid and you can bet a point buy will be used, aging might be.
Incorrect, it can be taken but it cannot be used unless my dex happens to be 13 at the time. The fleshraker more than qualifies.
As was mentioned earlier (Lurch_E_Bean), you cannot select the feat at third level. It is possible to select it at 6th level (When you want natural spell), but not at third.
I know. One will be shakey -2 to hit with ranged. I don't know what the other will be but it could be pathetic (any stat but con or wis).
Please update your post/build with this.
Actually the Natural Bond cancels out the penalty due to advanced companion.
I posted my answer to this, however, in the end, it doesn't matter, since as posted, the druid dies to the rug.
No mention of downtime between fights in the origional post that I saw.
Oops, you are correct in this one. My bad. I mixed this up with the Crypt of Creepiness, especially since Otto (i think) reran my fight in this mini-adventure showing the rounds of movement to see if the flight potion lasted.
Or done as part of a move action equivilent to drawing a weapon.
What you posted for how you did it, is not a move action.
It may see the light coming but I see it hiding long before it gets to go. I have spot remeber. Thats even assuming there is enough cover for it to hide in.
As posted, there is no light. Except from your light. You cannot see it before it sees you. Regardless, the snake did nothing here.
Nice metagaming. Sorry though, as mentioned he isn't forced into the area. If he did get forced in he would simply move out and stop not run 100' feet away. Nice try though.
I disagree, for the reasons I posted earlier. But will bow to the consensus of other posters.
As for the Venomfire. It transforms the poison into acid. So you get a dose of acid every time you are attacked and its poisonous to boot. Being immune to the poison (and so stat damage) doesn't negate the acid. Thats like saying if you use a flaming longsword on a red dragon its immune because its pointy metal that is also on fire. In this case you are smeared with acid that is also poisonous. So as posted the wraith dies signifigantly faster.
Please post the spell. From all the summaries I saw on the web, after the spell is cast, it is still poison, which this is immune to.
Missing acid damage. Also when not pinned the druid can claw/bite/rake the rug.
I am not missing acid damage, per my post, the animal companion's spells fall off during the wraith attack. If a consensus says I am wrong, then I will update. Even if the spells do not fall off because of the wraith, constructs are immune to poison just like undead are.
Thanks for verifying my numbers, feel free to update page 1. Unless you think the dragon is going to be a threat.
Post 1 is already updated. As it stands, you die to the rug.
But you can't Wildshape until 5th level, so even if you're right about that being good enough, you can't take the feat at third level because you can't Wildshape.
He can cast Cat's Grace at level 3, though. (Dunno if his Dex is at least 9, though.)
Fix that and the loss of buffs on the pet and I'm happy.
As I've said, when I get home I will update the build and try taking on 2 of the CR5 challenges at once. I'm pretty sure I can do it if I use items like everyone else. A couple scrolls, collar of healing etc.
He can cast Cat's Grace at level 3, though. (Dunno if his Dex is at least 9, though.)
So, he interrupts leveling his character after selecting his class, rests for a time, prepares his spells, casts cat's grace, then finishes leveling by selecting feats?
But no, his dex is only an 8, so this would not work. But that PLUS reduce person on him at JUST the right moment ....
I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class man (IHSAMPTYECM)
Druid 5
Str: 6
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Multiattack
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Flaws:
Shakey -2 to hit with ranged.
Pathetic -2 strength
Traits:
Musclebound (+1 strength checks, -1 dex checks)
Far sighted (+1 spot -1 search)
Spells:
1 -4
Magic Fang x 2
Speak with Animals
Cure light wounds
2 -3
Cat's grace
Bear's endurance
Bull's strength
3 -2
Venomfire
Something (Suggestions?)
Gear purchased:
4 Potions of Scintilating scales. (4x 250)
2 Scrolls of animal growth (2250)
2 Scrolls of Greater Luminous Armor (1400)
4 Potions of Enlarge person (This works on a wildshaped druid, har har) (200)
2 Belt of healing (1500)
Asst scrolls of lesser resto, remove poison etc.
4150 left over gold if someone has an idea of things to buy.
Buffed Fleshraker stats(Wildshape):
Large Humanoid
Speed: 50
Init +5
Bab/Grapple: 3/21 (+11 trip)
Armor Class: 28 (+5 dex +6 natural +8 armor -1 size) 20 touch, 23 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws +10 (1d8 + 7 + poison) + bite +7 (1d8 +5) + tail +7 (1d6 + 5 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Abilities:23,21,19,10,16,8
=============================================
Active buffs for the challenge
Scintilating scales x 2
Venomfire
Cats grace
Bears endurance
Bulls Strength
Magic Fang (Claws)
Speak with Animals
Animal Growth (Pouncy only)
Greater Luminous Armor
=============================================
Pouncy the wonderlizard
HD 6d8
Init +5
Speed 50
Armor class +8 natural
Attack: 2 claws (1d6 + poison) + bite (1d6) + tail (1d6 + poison)
Space/reach: 5/5
Special attacks: leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+str
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: 6/8/3
Abilities 18, 20, 15, 2, 14, 12
Skills: hide +12, jump +24
Feats: INA(Claw), Track, Imp. Trip
Leaping pounce(ex): When charging it can pounce, makes full attack including rake, if it hits a target its size or smaller it can make a free trip, if it makes the trip it can make a free grapple with no aoo. If the grapple check is successfull the creature is grappled and pinned, fleshraker deals automatic claw and **** damage vs pinned opponent. If the fleshraker fails the opposed trip it cannot be tripped in return. If it trips but fails the grapple the opponent is prone but not pinned or grappled.
Poison (ex) Injury dc 12+con damage 1d6dex/1d6dex.
Share spells: Druid can have any spell cast on himself also affect companion.
Evasion: No damage on ref save
Buffed stats of note:
Pouncy the Wonderlizard (Large Animal)
HD: 6d8 +36 (60hp)
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Bab/Grapple: 4/18 (+18 trip)
Armor class: 33(+8 armor +6 dex +10 natural armor -1 size) 25 touch, 27 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws + 15(1d8 + 11 + poison) + bite +9 (1d8 +5) + tail (1d6 + 5 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Special Qualities: evasion, DR 10/magic, Scent, Low-light vision
Special Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison, rake
Saves: 14,13, 7
Skills: Hide +16, Jump +29
Feats: INA Claw, Track, Imp Trip
Abilities: 30,22,23,2,14,12
Edit: Note, no barding, no using spells/wildshape to qualify for feats. As a side bonus the pair not only defeats all encounters but actually beats the rug in a grapple.
Two glowing dinos approach the cave... Both are large creatures with bags slung over thier shoulders and identical collars on.
v Manticore
Walk up to manticore, allow it to unload its payload of spikes and then either kill it or watch it flee.
It hits on a 20 so 1 hit is scored. IHSAMPTYECM uses 1 charge of belt to negate the damage.
v Snake
Snake is pounced and mauled as per the first time through.
v Wraith
Init (+6 v +5) win
Druid holds action to intercept the wraith as it passes to within 35' of Pouncy.
Wraith flys at druid.
Druid charges and pounces (Druid is 30' from animal, wraith is 35')
Claw +12 v ac 15 (85/50) Miss to incorp
Claw +12 v ac 15 (190/150) hit damage 11 + 17
Druid lands aoo as Wraith moves from 10' to 5'
Claw +12 v ac 15 (275/250) Miss to incorp
Wraith touches druid
+5 v ac 18 (40/50) miss
Druid full attacks:
Claw +10 v ac 15 (350/350) hit 11 + 17
Wraith is at -25hp
v Carpet
OMG SUPPRISE!
Init +6 v -1 (140/150) lose
Carpet attempts grapple:
Touch +6 v ac 18 flat footed touch (45/50) miss.
Carpet attempts to grapple:
Touch +6 v ac 18 (90/50) hit.
Grapple +19 v +21 (40/50) Failed.
Pouncy charges.
Claw + 17 v ac 13 (95/50) hit 17 + 17
Claw + 17 v ac 13 (190/150) hit 17 + 17
Bite +12 v ac 13 (280/250) hit 9
Rake +12 v ac 13 (370/350) hit 9
Carpet has taken 86 damage and dies.
v Dragon
Init +6 v +0 (220/150) win
Druid attempts to bargain with the dragon.
Pouncy readies partial charge for hostile action.
Dragon decides its better to burn out than fade away.
Breath (dc 17 15 damage ref for half)
Druid +6 v dc 17 (50/50) Pass 8 damage.
Pouncy +13 v dc 17 (85/50) pass 0 damage.
Pouncy charges
+17 claw v ac 19 (95/50) hit 17 (immune acid) Poison +9 fort v dc 19 (55/50) saved.
+17 claw v ac 19 (190/150) hit 17 Poison +9 v dc 19 (110/150) failed 3 dex damage)
+12 bite v ac 17 (270/250) hit 9
+12 rake v ac 17 (350/350) hit 9
Trip +18 v +2 Dragon is tripped
Grapple +18 v +12 dragon is pinned.
Dragon is down 52 damage and helpless. Lets assume that the int 10 dragon fails a int check and continues to attack.
Druid pounces the dragon:
Claw +15 v ac 17 (95/50) hit damage 11 + poison +9 v dc 16 (180/150) saved
Claw +15 v ac 17 (190/150) hit damage 11 + poison +9 v dc 16 (240/250) failed 4 dex damage
Bite +13 v ac 15 (280/250) hit 9
Rake +13 (370/350) hit 9
Dragon has taken 92 damage and is at -7 hp. Pouncy automatically deals claw, bite and rake damage on his turn finishing him off.
EDIT: I forgot the -4 to hit either of the dinos in melee thanks to thier armor spell. They don't actually get hit in this challenge save 1 spike at the beginning if they allow him to throw all 24 spikes.
Same as v 1, allow them to empty spikes and then destroy them.
v 2 x Snake
Same this time the IHSAMPTYECM charges one, Pouncy charges the other. Both snakes die.
v 2 x Wraith
Init (+6 v +5) win
IHSAMPTYECM holds action to intercept the wraith as it passes to within 35' of Pouncy.
Wraith flys at IHSAMPTYECM.
IHSAMPTYECM charges and pounces (IHSAMPTYECM is 30' from animal, wraith is 35')
Claw +12 v ac 15 (85/50) Miss to incorp
Claw +12 v ac 15 (190/150) hit damage 11 + 17
IHSAMPTYECM lands aoo as Wraith moves from 10' to 5'
Claw +12 v ac 15 (275/250) Miss to incorp
Wraith touches IHSAMPTYECM
+1 v ac 18 (15/50) miss
Wraith 2 touches IHSAMPTYECM
+1 touch (30/50) miss
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks moves 5' back
Claw +10 v ac 15 (350/350) hit 11 + 17 (Wraith 1 dead)
Claw +10 v ac 15 (425/450) miss
Pouncy moves 5' back
IHSAMPTYECM aoo while wraith closes
Claw +10 v ac 15 (500/450) miss incorp
Wraith2 touches IHSAMPTYECM
+1 v ac 20 (35/50) miss
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks, steps back 5'
Claw +10 (575/550) hit 10 + 17
Claw +10 (650/650) miss incorp
Pouncy moves 5' back
IHSAMPTYECM aoo as wraith closes
+10 claw (725/750) miss
Wraith2 touches IHSAMPTYECM
+1 v ac 20 (40/50) miss
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks:
Claw +10 (800/750) hit 10 + 17
Wraith2 is dead.
v 2 x Carpet (Assume one attacks each party member, I think thats most adventageous to the carpet.)
Init +6 v - 1 lose
Carpet1 attempts to grapple IHSAMPTYECM
Touch +2 v ac 18 (25/50) Miss
Carpet2 attempts to grapple Pouncy
Touch +2 v ac 19 (20/50) miss
Round 1!
Carpet1 attempts to grapple IHSAMPTYECM
Touch +2 v ac 18 (50/50) hit
Grapple +18 v +19 (45/50) failed
Carpet2 attempts to grapple Pouncy
Touch +2 v ac 19 (40/50) miss
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks carpet1
Claw +10 v ac 13 (90/50) hit 11 + 17
Claw +10 (180/150) hit 11 + 17
Bite +10 (270/250) hit 9
Pouncy attacks carpet2
Claw +15 v ac 13 (95/50) hit 17 + 17
Claw +15 (190/150) 17 + 17
Bite +10 v ac 13 (280/250) 11
Damage totals:
Carpet1 - 65
Carpet2 - 79
Carpet1 attempts to grapple IHSAMPTYECM
Touch +2 v ac 20 (60/150) failed
Carpet2 attempts to grapple Pouncy
Touch +2 v ac 27 (45/50) miss
IHSAMPTYECM full attacks, same damage carpet dies.
Pouncy full attacks, carpet really dies.
v 2x Young black dragon
Init +6 v +0 (220/150) win
Pouncy charges
+17 claw v ac 19 (95/50) hit 17 (immune acid) Poison +9 fort v dc 19 (55/50) saved.
+17 claw v ac 19 (190/150) hit 17 Poison +9 v dc 19 (110/150) failed 3 dex damage)
+12 bite v ac 17 (270/250) hit 9
+12 rake v ac 17 (350/350) hit 9
Trip +18 v +2 Dragon is tripped
Grapple +18 v +12 (80/50)dragon is pinned.
IHSAMPTYECM charges
+12 claw v ac 19 (65/50) hit 11 Poison +9 fort v dc 16 (65/50) saved
+12 claw v ac 19 (130/150) miss
+10 bite v ac 19 (190/150) hit 9
Rake +10 v ac 19 (250/250) hit 9
Trip +11 v + 2 Dragon is tripped
Grapple +21 v +12 (95/50) Dragon is pinned
Damages:
Dragon1 - 33/85
Dragon2 - 56/85
Dragon1 breathes acid on Pouncy +13 ref v dc 17 (85/50) passed, evasion 0 damage
Dragon2 breathes acid on IHSAMPTYECM +6 v dc 17 (50/50) passed, 8 damage
Pouncy grapples dragon +18 v +12 (160/150) grappled
Automatic claw, bite and rake damage
Dragon is very dead.
IHSAMPTYECM grapples dragon +21 v +12 (190/150)
Automatic claw, bite and rake damage
40 damage and 2 poison saves
Save +9 v dc 16 (130/150) failed 3 dex damage
Save +9 v dc 16 (195/150) saved
Damages:
Dragon1 - 0/85
Dragon2 - 16/86
Dragon attempts to escape pin +12 v +21 (5/50) failed.
IHSAMPTYECM and Pouncy do the remaining 16 damage between them.
Oh, I made a mistake. The dragons don't actually get to breath because they are pinned before they get to go. Ah well, we didn't hold thier heads I guess. Total damage taken is healed via unspent spells after second dragon dies.
So there you have it, the CR5 druid takes on 2 CR5 challenges at the same time and wins with minimal damage.
I challenge any and all to make a non-caster than can duplicate that feat.
Correct, but it is really easy for the wraith to fix that.
Which would be metagaming, wouldnt it? Or does he have knowledge: caster class abilities maxed?
Which would be metagaming, wouldnt it? Or does he have knowledge: caster class abilities maxed?
No more than you keeping the animal exactly at 30' from the druid but 35' from the wraith. Your druid has no religion knowledge and does not even know the wraith is an undead.
Hopefully someone can post the actual text of the spell.
If the spell says "poison is replaced by acid" then immunity to poison does not work.
If the spell says "poison deals acid damage" then immunity to poison works.
it says venom deals acid damage, but it still works.
This is not adding an extra d6 of poison (acid) damage, it is adding an extra d6 of acid damage, it even has the acid descriptor.
In no way does immunity to poison grant immunity to any attack that happens to accompany poison
this is similar to saying that an immune to fire creature would take no damage from an energy admixture (acid) fireball, since he is immune to fire
No more than you keeping the animal exactly at 30' from the druid but 35' from the wraith. Your druid has no religion knowledge and does not even know the wraith is an undead.
no... the animal knows exactly where the unnatural aura starts, and stops on a dime right there. If its forced in the aura it moves out of the aura, then stops, the panicked state only lasts while in the aura. The wraith has no indicator that herding the animal companion might be advantageous to it, unless the dm decides to metagame to screw the druid.
No more than you keeping the animal exactly at 30' from the druid but 35' from the wraith. Your druid has no religion knowledge and does not even know the wraith is an undead.
The way he did it, possibly, but not in general. The Druid presumably taught Pouncy the "Attack" and "Attack unusual creatures" tricks, which means he can, as a free action, order his pet to attack the Wraith. Inexplicably, it doesn't do so, so the Druid attacks the Wraith himself.
Presumably, the Druid also knows the limitations of the Companion Spellbond feat, and conveniently enough, Pouncy is just close enough to the Wraith that the Druid can attack without Pouncy losing all his buffs.
And why does the Druid have to know the Wraith is undead? It's not like he's casting Cure spells on the thing; he's just clawing at it.
Per my bolded section, they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
So, your contention is that the animal intelligent (2) creature, is running pell-mell, hits the edge of the 30' barrier, and comes to a complete stop. And, that the animal is outside the 30' from the wraith, but within the 30' from the druid?
While it would be advantageous to you for the animal to keep running till its heart exploded, thats not what the aura states, the animal instantly calms as it reaches 30' from the wraith. You would do better to argue whether or not the druid can instruct the pet to stay 30' behind him, since the animal will choose a random path (not straight back, tho thats the only route that makes sense) at top speed if it does come within the aura. Alternatively, in the 2 wraiths scenario you could send one after the pet, but then youre arguing whether or not the druid is 2x as powerful, instead of whether hes equally powerful.
You cause the subject's vemon to become caustic, dealing blah blah blah with ease use. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison.
Thin, wicked-looking spines bristle from this creature's back, sinuous tail, and musculed forelimbs, glistening with some clear liquid.
The naturally produced POISON does extra acid damage. You might as well argue that you do dex damage to creatures immune to poison as well.
Pouncy senses the wraith at 30', and would have to be forced to approach closer. So I don't think it automatically flees. I can accept you trying to force it to stay within 30', but if the wraith moves towards it, it will panic. And if it panics, it's not just going to get a grip as soon as it starts to RUN away.
IHSAMPTYECM has to have knowledge enough to know that not only does Pouncy not really wanna come any closer to this thing, but if Pouncy gets any closer he's out the door. No Knowledge (Religion), sorry. Per this, I call metagaming on changing your original tactics of forcing a pounce on an unnatural creature.
*EDIT* I also think it would take more than a free action to command Pouncy to stop, since you would have to do so as soon as he was no longer panicked and before he moved 5' farther. Plus he's fleeing at top speed, I'm not seeing him stop on a dime even if you commanded him to at the exact moment. If the wraith sees something jump at it and then go running away crying, only to stop when it's buddy yells at it, I think it's either going after the weak kill, or at the very least try to push it out of close range.
My vote is on panicking, with no question against 2 wraiths. Even if Pouncy doesn't panic, Vemonfire isn't helping against the rugs/wraith.
*EDIT* Thinking about it more, I suppose since it does say caustic it's possible that the while the poison isn't reacting, it's still corrosive. I guess it would depend if there are poisons that are already caustic. If they are normally separate, I can see some arguement for a caustic liquid still being caustic.
I suppose it also depends on whether the poison is something that has to be metabolized, or a contact poison. Since it sounds more like a contact poison, I think that lumps the acid damage into the poison. I still say that the poison reacts corrosively, dealing extra damage on failed saves, rather than you dealing (poison damage) + (acid damage).
Updated build. I believe this addresses all issues with the build and kicks even more butt (with some expendable use). If I get in the mood to I'll repost the figured stats without any expendables. Running the figures now for the encounters.
Before you get ahead of yourself, what you need to do is the following:
List what spells are affecting you prior to entering the dungeon, how far away from the dungeon you are when you cast them, etc. For instance, if you walk to right next to the manticore and then start casting spells, before you finish buffing, it spikes you and kills you. If this is at night and you are casting luminous armor, explain when you cast it and why the manticore does not investigate. If this is happening in daylight, then its not as bad a thing as the light is not painfully obvious.
You need to list which tricks the animal companion knows, as well as what equipment is available to use (and how it is available to use)
Note: There is no issues with the animal companion wearing barding as you can easily put it on it, so if you have the gold to spend, feel free. The issue was whether or not you as a fleshraker (with no one to help you) can put barding on yourself.
Now, for the wraith, you have two options.
1) Your total movement rate is reduced to 10' per round (you move 10 feet, it moves 10 feet, ending each round with one person 5' away from the other). This allows you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other
2) Your total movement rate is reduced to 30' per round (you move 30 feet, it catches up to you, you end up next to each other). This will allow you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other -- ASSUMING that the movement of whichever moved first (animal companion or druid) does not initiate combat.
Also, as it stands, my contention is that the spell venomfire causes the poison to deal damage. Since the rug/wraith are immune to poison they will not be affected by the venomfire spell. Unless you can post where in the spell it says otherwise, or a ruling by CustServ, then this is the way it gets run in this thread.
Please indicate how you are progressing in the dungeon, as this is very important for your build.
Now, for the wraith, you have two options.
1) Your total movement rate is reduced to 10' per round (you move 10 feet, it moves 10 feet, ending each round with one person 5' away from the other). This allows you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other
2) Your total movement rate is reduced to 30' per round (you move 30 feet, it catches up to you, you end up next to each other). This will allow you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other -- ASSUMING that the movement of whichever moved first (animal companion or druid) does not initiate combat.
So, for the purposes of this exercize, creatures can't move simultaneously even for the purpose of "overland" movement?
it says venom deals acid damage, but it still works.
This is not adding an extra d6 of poison (acid) damage, it is adding an extra d6 of acid damage, it even has the acid descriptor.
In no way does immunity to poison grant immunity to any attack that happens to accompany poison
this is similar to saying that an immune to fire creature would take no damage from an energy admixture (acid) fireball, since he is immune to fire
Q:What deals the damage?
A:The acid in the poison
Q:Is it immune to poison?
A:Yes
Q:Is it immune to only certain parts of the poison?
A:No, it is immune to all parts of the poison.
Energy admixture (acid) does not say that the FIRE deals acid damage, it says that the SPELL deals acid damage.
This is different. If venomfire added acid to the claw attack, then fine. But it doesn't, it makes the poison deal acid damage.
So, for the purposes of this exercize, creatures can't move simultaneously even for the purpose of "overland" movement?
Can creature's move simultaneously in DnD? If so, where does it say this?
How is "While the very limited rounds remaining in my spells are ticking off" the same as "overland movement"?
Per SRD:
Overland: Miles per hour
Local: Feet per minute
Tactical: Feet per round
Which would you use in a timeframe measured in rounds?
While it would be advantageous to you for the animal to keep running till its heart exploded, thats not what the aura states, the animal instantly calms as it reaches 30' from the wraith. You would do better to argue whether or not the druid can instruct the pet to stay 30' behind him, since the animal will choose a random path (not straight back, tho thats the only route that makes sense) at top speed if it does come within the aura.
I am not looking to have it run until it's heart explodes, I am instead saying, if the 2 int creature takes 1 extra step, its spells fall off it.
Can creature's move simultaneously in DnD? If so, where does it say this?
How is "While the very limited rounds remaining in my spells are ticking off" the same as "overland movement"?
dmg quote: In general, when the characters aren't engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could.
another quote: all movement during an encounter is actually fluid and continuous
so youre creating a non-raw limitation with the 10' advance nitpick
I am not looking to have it run until it's heart explodes, I am instead saying, if the 2 int creature takes 1 extra step, its spells fall off it.
Is it required to take the rest of its move? Im actually not sure, can you interrupt your move in the middle if the situation changes? I would think so, or the aura description shouldve said "is no longer panicked beginning on the creatures first turn outside the aura" or some such. What use is specifying that it flips off like a light switch the second the animal hits 30 feet, if an animal will keep running till its winded.
turn based combat, bah
Q:What deals the damage?
A:The acid in the poison
Q:Is it immune to poison?
A:Yes
Q:Is it immune to only certain parts of the poison?
A:No, it is immune to all parts of the poison.
Energy admixture (acid) does not say that the FIRE deals acid damage, it says that the SPELL deals acid damage.
This is different. If venomfire added acid to the claw attack, then fine. But it doesn't, it makes the poison deal acid damage.
Yes.. just like the feat makes the fireball do acid damage...
there wouldnt be a problem with the spell if it allowed a fort save vs the damage, or specified that it required the poison to work for the acid to work... but it doesnt. You get your hit, you get your poison effect, then you get some extra acid damage.
Not conclusive, but if dr stopped the damage, it would also stop the poison, right? It wouldn't stop the acid damage tho, it never stops energy attacks.
edit:
this needs an errata to clear up whether the acid is dependent on the poison or a separate effect, too bad the errata removed the saving throw: none lol
has anyone ever asked customer service I wonder
dmg quote: In general, when the characters aren't engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could.
He is engaged in round-by-round activities.
another quote: all movement during an encounter is actually fluid and continuous
So, do you take this to mean that as long as the animal companion and he END UP near each other, that it doesn't matter how far apart they are at any point in time during the round?
so youre creating a non-raw limitation with the 10' advance nitpick
Why is it that when I point something out, it is always a nit-pick?
Yes.. just like the feat makes the fireball do acid damage...
Right ... the spell does the damage not the fire, which is different than venomfire.
Not conclusive, but if dr stopped the damage, it would also stop the poison, right? It wouldn't stop the acid damage tho, it never stops energy attacks.
When DR stops all the damage from the attack, it also prevents things like injury poison from working.
this needs an errata to clear up whether the acid is dependent on the poison or a separate effect, too bad the errata removed the saving throw: none lol
has anyone ever asked customer service I wonder
I haven't asked customer service. I welcome anyone else to however.
He is engaged in round-by-round activities.
Pretty sure he drops out of initiative at the end of the encounter (that is, when his opponent dies). At that point, he's not "engaged in round-by-round activities" because it's not necessary to track what he does each round, only how many rounds it takes to accomplish it.
Also: Have you ever seen people IRL walking side-by-side at the same time? It's not really that hard to accomplish, so I don't see why it wouldn't be permitted in a noncombat situation.
So, do you take this to mean that as long as the animal companion and he END UP near each other, that it doesn't matter how far apart they are at any point in time during the round?
Provided that the Druid and the companion follow the same path, it would be a reasonable interpretation.
Why is it that when I point something out, it is always a nit-pick?
First, you should probably be careful with words like "always"; it would be trivial to find something in this thread alone that you pointed out, but weren't accused of nitpicking.
Second, nitpicking is necessary in an environment like this.
Q:What deals the damage?
A:The acid in the poison
Q:Is it immune to poison?
A:Yes
Q:Is it immune to only certain parts of the poison?
A:No, it is immune to all parts of the poison.
Immunity to poison is just that, immunity to poison. "The spell causes the venom to become caustic dealing an additional d6 points of acid damage.... "
If you had a spell that added d6 point of cold damage and struck a creature immune to say bludgeoning weapons, the cold damage still happens.
You have separate 2 things here: Poison and acid. There is no such thing as poison acid damage. That's the whole point of have specific descriptors denoting damage types. If it was an additional d6 of poison damage you might have a case.
There's no reason to assume that immunity to the metabolic effects of poison would somehow confer immunity to the chemical effects of acid anyways.
Energy admixture (acid) does not say that the FIRE deals acid damage, it says that the SPELL deals acid damage.
Venomfire does not say that the poison deals acid damage.
This is different. If venomfire added acid to the claw attack, then fine. But it doesn't, it makes the poison deal acid damage.
It does not change the damage the poison deals, it adds acid damage to the attack. Again, while you may ignore the poison damage, there is nothing that lets you ignore the acid damage since it is not poison damage.
Edit:
When DR stops all the damage from the attack, it also prevents things like injury poison from working.
Which is because there was no injury. It would not stop contact poison, so there's really no reason to bring it up. Being immune to one damage type doesn't make you immune to other damage types delivered through the same means.
Immunity to poison is just that, immunity to poison. "The spell causes the venom to become caustic dealing an additional d6 points of acid damage.... "
Venomfire does not say that the poison deals acid damage.
In the above quote ... what is dealing the acid damage? The caustic (sorry, that is an adjective describing the word poison) or the poison (which the creature is immune to)?
You have separate 2 things here: Poison and acid. There is no such thing as poison acid damage. That's the whole point of have specific descriptors denoting damage types. If it was an additional d6 of poison damage you might have a case.
Why do you think it is two separate things?
Example:
Fleshraker poison: DC 14, 1d6 dex damage + 6d6 acid damage on a failed save, 6d6 acid damage on a successful save.
That would be one thing (poison).
Fleshraker poison: DC 14, 1d6 dex damage.
Fleshraket claws: +6d6 acid damage.
That would be two things (poison + acid)
But ... I am dropping this discussion, without a ruling from CustServ to the contrary, or some other revelation, Venomfire cannot hurt things immune to poison.
Pretty sure he drops out of initiative at the end of the encounter (that is, when his opponent dies). At that point, he's not "engaged in round-by-round activities" because it's not necessary to track what he does each round, only how many rounds it takes to accomplish it.
Per the poster, he is sneaking ... (this is an opposed skill check) ... so he is engaged in round-to-round activities.
Per Factotem/ToB, an encounter is basically over if you have a minute or so to catch your breath. His contention is that he never spends a minute between encounters.
Also: Have you ever seen people IRL walking side-by-side at the same time? It's not really that hard to accomplish, so I don't see why it wouldn't be permitted in a noncombat situation.
True. I also have never seen 1000 orcs lined up (30' apart), passing a baton from one end to the other end in 6 seconds. (move action to move to the next person, free to drop, move action to pick it up). This would mean that the baton is moving at 5000 feet per second (which is really really really fast). It also means that they cannot be moving simultaneously.
Provided that the Druid and the companion follow the same path, it would be a reasonable interpretation.
It might be a reasonable interpretation, but that would also be a houserule partially negating the limitations of Share Spells.
First, you should probably be careful with words like "always"; it would be trivial to find something in this thread alone that you pointed out, but weren't accused of nitpicking.
Sorry, you are correct, always is not a good word to use.
Second, nitpicking is necessary in an environment like this.
Ok, I hear nitpicking in a negative connotation.
He is engaged in round-by-round activities.
So, do you take this to mean that as long as the animal companion and he END UP near each other, that it doesn't matter how far apart they are at any point in time during the round?
Why is it that when I point something out, it is always a nit-pick?
You were saying they have to advance either 10' per or 30' per in turn based lockstep to encounter the wraith as described, which is false. They can walk up together, as indicated by the rules. If you prefer, we could call it something more sinister than nitpicking, such as deception, or bias, I just thought it was more of a nitpick than those other things :P
As for how far apart they can get, they can run 200', so if one runs and the other also runs, by your logic theyre 200' apart and lose the benefit, by the dmg, they are fine and lose nothing.
Ok, I hear nitpicking in a negative connotation.
Most people do, I guess, I coulda picked a better word, sorry.
Now, for the wraith, you have two options.
1) Your total movement rate is reduced to 10' per round (you move 10 feet, it moves 10 feet, ending each round with one person 5' away from the other). This allows you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other
2) Your total movement rate is reduced to 30' per round (you move 30 feet, it catches up to you, you end up next to each other). This will allow you to start combat versus the wraith 5' away from each other -- ASSUMING that the movement of whichever moved first (animal companion or druid) does not initiate combat.
Nope read my tactics. I win init, I ready a charge. When it is 30-50' away from Pouncy I charge. Now I am 10' from the wraith (reach remember) and still in range of Pouncy. I back up 5' a round triggering AoO's each round, Pouncy backs up to avoid getting close to the wraith.
Also, as it stands, my contention is that the spell venomfire causes the poison to deal damage. Since the rug/wraith are immune to poison they will not be affected by the venomfire spell. Unless you can post where in the spell it says otherwise, or a ruling by CustServ, then this is the way it gets run in this thread.
Except for the fact that it is blatantly not the case. It is an acid that is also poisonous. I know it makes the melee look completely junky but thats the way it works, sorry.
The way I move through the dungeon doesn't matter. If Pouncy is 25' ahead when the wraith shows up the druid can still charge up to 100'. Pouncy won't accidently wander into the wraith aura, the whole reason it HAS the aura is because he can sense it.
You were saying they have to advance either 10' per or 30' per in turn based lockstep to encounter the wraith as described, which is false. They can walk up together, as indicated by the rules. If you prefer, we could call it something more sinister than nitpicking, such as deception, or bias, I just thought it was more of a nitpick than those other things :P
As for how far apart they can get, they can run 200', so if one runs and the other also runs, by your logic theyre 200' apart and lose the benefit, by the dmg, they are fine and lose nothing.
I don't own a 3.5 DMG, I own a 3.0 DMG and have the SRD text files on my machine so I cannot look up your quote to make sure it is in context ... but, assuming it is
In general, when the characters aren't engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could.
In general, it doesn't matter how two characters with the same movement rate move, they end up in the same place at the same time. However, in this specific example (shared spells) it matters.
So, the quote you mention does not demonstrate me being wrong.
Ok, so lets assume that they ARE greater than 30' apart at any point in time and that this doesn't cause the spells to fall off.
Round X:
Druid, I move 100 feet (not that it matters, but i don't think that there is a 200' straight line)
Animal companion. I move 100 feet, ending adjacent to druid. I started and ended next to him, my spells stick.
Round X+1:
Druid, I move 100 feet
(DM)
You are now close enough for the snake to interact, roll for initiative.
Animal companion: Um, can I move first to keep my spells?
Nope read my tactics. I win init, I ready a charge. When it is 30-50' away from Pouncy I charge. Now I am 10' from the wraith (reach remember) and still in range of Pouncy. I back up 5' a round triggering AoO's each round, Pouncy backs up to avoid getting close to the wraith.
Here are your tactics on the build I have been critiquing.
vs Wraith
Init +7 vs + 7 (110/150) wraith wins
Approaches druid attempts touch (+5 vs 17 touch ac, 40/50) Miss
Poucy pounces on wraith - Only claws are valid weapons.
Claw +13 ac 15 90/50 miss to incorp
claw +13 ac 15 180/150 hit 10 phys, 17 acid
Druid full attacks
Claw +9 vs ac 15 75/50 hit miss to incorp
Claw +9 vs ac 15 150/150 hit damage 9 phys 17 acid
Wraith has taken 53 damage and dies.
I have not moved to the next build yet as this version is still in dispute. Would you like me to drop this examination and move to the next one?
In the above quote ... what is dealing the acid damage? The caustic (sorry, that is an adjective describing the word poison) or the poison (which the creature is immune to)?
caus·tic (kô'stĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Capable of burning, corroding, dissolving, or eating away by chemical action.
Corrosive and bitingly trenchant; cutting. See Synonyms at sarcastic.
Causing a burning or stinging sensation, as from intense emotion: "Most of all, there is caustic shame for my own stupidity" (Scott Turow).
n.
A caustic material or substance.
A hydroxide of a light metal.
The enveloping surface formed by light rays reflecting or refracting from a curved surface, especially one with spherical aberration.
Caustic refers to an acid, not a poison. As Previn pointed out the critter may be immune to the effect of a poison (1d6/1d6) but it certainly is not immune to acid (except the dragon, who ironically is not immune to poison).
But ... I am dropping this discussion, without a ruling from CustServ to the contrary, or some other revelation, Venomfire cannot hurt things immune to poison.
Bzzt. This the CO forums, we play RAW here not house rules. If you have to resort to house rules to say that the druid is capable of defeating 2 of the CR5 challenges at once then you lose.
In the above quote ... what is dealing the acid damage? The caustic (sorry, that is an adjective describing the word poison) or the poison (which the creature is immune to)?
Maybe the spell? I mean, if someone cast Weapon of Energy on a sword, what's dealing the energy damage?
Why do you think it is two separate things?
Example:
Fleshraker poison: DC 14, 1d6 dex damage + 6d6 acid damage on a failed save, 6d6 acid damage on a successful save.
That would be one thing (poison).
Fleshraker poison: DC 14, 1d6 dex damage.
Fleshraket claws: +6d6 acid damage.
That would be two things (poison + acid)
The fact that a particular variety of acid happens to be toxic doesn't stop it from being acid, though.
But ... I am dropping this discussion, without a ruling from CustServ to the contrary, or some other revelation, Venomfire cannot hurt things immune to poison.
And why is your interpretation automatically more valid than someone else's? Without a ruling from CustServ one way or the other, we don't know.
Per the poster, he is sneaking ... (this is an opposed skill check) ... so he is engaged in round-to-round activities.
Per Factotem/ToB, an encounter is basically over if you have a minute or so to catch your breath. His contention is that he never spends a minute between encounters.
If the "encounter" never ends, why does he reroll initiative for each new creature he encounters? Also, why are Hide and Move Silently "round-to-round activities"? Is it not possible to Hide and Move Silently for minutes or even hours at a time?
True. I also have never seen 1000 orcs lined up (30' apart), passing a baton from one end to the other end in 6 seconds. (move action to move to the next person, free to drop, move action to pick it up). This would mean that the baton is moving at 5000 feet per second (which is really really really fast). It also means that they cannot be moving simultaneously.
Technically, you've never seen one orc, but anyway, this isn't an example of people even attempting to move simultaneously.
And is the fact that the rules permit you to do something counterintuitive really a good way to prove that the rules prevent you from doing something that's not only demonstratively possible, but relatively easy?
For the record. Even if I wasn't using Venomfire the same damn thing happens. With my new build nothing in the dungeon even hits me thanks to taking potions of Scintilating Scales and using Greater Luminous Armor.
The druid has a 17 flat footed touch ac and the rug has -4 to hit because of the armor. That means it never actually even trys to initiate a grapple (I forgot about that when I did my numbers) but even if it DID initiate then the druid has a better grapple bonus and simply shrugs the rug off. If it attacks the other (identical) dino it has even less of a chance to grapple it.
And why is your interpretation automatically more valid than someone else's? Without a ruling from CustServ one way or the other, we don't know.
I have mentioned that if someone would like to contact custserv, that would be stellar, but I do not feel the need to. My interpretation is more valid cause I am the original poster, and record victories/failures. I mentioned that board consensus (or a new fact) would cause me to overturn these rulings, but so far, there is no board consensus either way.
If the "encounter" never ends, why does he reroll initiative for each new creature he encounters? Also, why are Hide and Move Silently "round-to-round activities"? Is it not possible to Hide and Move Silently for minutes or even hours at a time?
I never said the encounters need to never end, I just pointed you to rules that show what it means to end an encounter.
Hide is part of a move action per the skills part of the SRD. So it is a round-by-round activity.
Technically, you've never seen one orc, but anyway, this isn't an example of people even attempting to move simultaneously.
True on both parts.
But ... I am dropping this discussion, without a ruling from CustServ to the contrary, or some other revelation, Venomfire cannot hurt things immune to poison.
In that case you might want to take the Punishing Stance damage off of Fire Riposte, as without a CustServ ruling to the contrary, Punishing Stance does not apply to Fire Riposte.
I have mentioned that if someone would like to contact custserv, that would be stellar, but I do not feel the need to. My interpretation is more valid cause I am the original poster, and record victories/failures. I mentioned that board consensus (or a new fact) would cause me to overturn these rulings, but so far, there is no board consensus either way.
LOL. The secret of my success : I keep the score.
I guess since you are both player and DM, we shouldn't be surprised that you end up winning all the encounters and the people you don't like (casters) end up losing...
Now I remember why I stopped reading this thread the first time around.
Updated build. I believe this addresses all issues with the build and kicks even more butt (with some expendable use). If I get in the mood to I'll repost the figured stats without any expendables. Running the figures now for the encounters.
Don't worry about the numbers yet ... but this build is really close to completion. I have no doubt that it will eventually do really well.
I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class man (IHSAMPTYECM)
Druid 5
Gear purchased:
4 Potions of Scintilating scales. (4x 250)
Not valid, potions cannot be made of personal only spells.
CREATING POTIONS
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster.
All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
2 Scrolls of Greater Luminous Armor (1400)
Target has to be good. Are you good?
2 Belt of healing (1500)
You realize that neither you nor your animal companion can use these in Fleshraker form? Unless Fleshrakers can talk (then you can, but your Animal companion cannot -- let me know if you need a link to why this is true)?
I guess since you are both player and DM, we shouldn't be surprised that you end up winning all the encounters and the people you don't like (casters) end up losing...
Actually, there are several successes for casters. It took a couple revisions for some but for those, all my objections were eliminated.
In that case you might want to take the Punishing Stance damage off of Fire Riposte, as without a CustServ ruling to the contrary, Punishing Stance does not apply to Fire Riposte.
Otto has emailed this question in quite some time ago and is awaiting a response.
When it arrives, then I will either redo the fights (without the extra d6) or I will keep it, depending on what is said.
Caustic:capable of burning, corroding, or destroying living tissue.
Poisonous:full of or containing poison
So using the primary definition of Venom, Venomfire gives us a caustic substance containing poison that does acid damage whenever it is used.
It's possible to interpret it the other way, if you think that WOTC used the archaic definition of venom being synonymous to poison. But normally, being poisonous is a property of venom, not a synonym. Venomfire gives the venom two properties, being caustic, and being poisonous.
Otto has emailed this question in quite some time ago and is awaiting a response.
When it arrives, then I will either redo the fights (without the extra d6) or I will keep it, depending on what is said.
Feel free to mail a question in. Until that time RAW stands and immunity to poison doesn't make you automagically immune to acid as well.
Venom:the poisonous fluid that some animals, such as certain snakes and spiders, secrete and introduce into the bodies of their victims by biting, stinging, etc.
Caustic:capable of burning, corroding, or destroying living tissue.
Poisonous:full of or containing poison
So using the primary definition of Venom, Venomfire gives us a caustic substance containing poison that does acid damage whenever it is used.
It's possible to interpret it the other way, if you think that WOTC used the archaic definition of venom being synonymous to poison. But normally, being poisonous is a property of venom, not a synonym. Venomfire gives the venom two properties, being caustic, and being poisonous.
From merriam-webster online:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venom
Main Entry: 1ven·om
Pronunciation: \ˈve-nəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English venim, from Anglo-French, from Vulgar Latin *venimen, alteration of Latin venenum magic charm, drug, poison; akin to Latin venus love, charm — more at win
Date: 13th century
1: poisonous matter normally secreted by some animals (as snakes, scorpions, or bees) and transmitted to prey or an enemy chiefly by biting or stinging; broadly : material that is poisonous
Per this:
Venom is material that is poisonous, not material that contains poison.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/poisonous
Main Entry: poi·son·ous
Pronunciation: \ˈpȯiz-nəs, ˈpȯi-zən-əs\
Function: adjective
Date: 1565
1 : destructive, harmful
2 : having the properties or effects of poison : venomous
3 : spiteful, malicious
— poi·son·ous·ly adverb
Venom and poison are synonyms.
Feel free to mail a question in. Until that time RAW stands and immunity to poison doesn't make you automagically immune to acid as well.
You disagree with the ruling, you send in the question. This is identical to what Otto and I did for my character.
Otto has emailed this question in quite some time ago and is awaiting a response.
When it arrives, then I will either redo the fights (without the extra d6) or I will keep it, depending on what is said.
so you're saying that, if someone *mailed* the Venomfire question into custserv, you would permit it until they get a response? Or would this be a double standard?
so you're saying that, if someone *mailed* the Venomfire question into custserv, you would permit it until they get a response? Or would this be a double standard?
It would not be double-standard, in each case, the ruling stood until it gets over-ruled by CustServ.
A good question would be something like
"Would immunity to poison make a creature immune to the acid damage from Venomfire (book, page)"
A bad question would be something like
"Would immunity to poison make a creature immune to acid damage"
It would not be double-standard, in each case, the ruling stood until it gets over-ruled by CustServ.
Ah yes, and in each case the rulings were completely fair and impartial, despite the fact that in both cases it makes the least sense. Much more fair than being universally either permissive or strict, until we find out otherwise.
Venom and poison are synonyms.
Venomous and poisonous are synonyms. Venom is poisonous/venomous. It is not however poison. (Ok... so technically as a "substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health."(Dictionary.com) it is poison, but that same definition means that Sulfuric Acid is a poison as well. Same with napalm. And Liquid Nitrogen. And antimatter.)
Venomfire however doesn't add acid damage to the characteristic of being venomous. It adds it to the venom, which is a noun. It's akin to dissolving cyanide in propane and setting the propane on fire. Yes the propane/cyanide solution is poisonous. If it was excreted by a animal, it would be venom. But the fact that it sets you on fire is not a property of being poisonous.
I'm biased against your interpretation because it makes no sense. There is no biological regent that reacts with the creatures physiology to create an acid. With less certainty, I'm fairly certain its impossible. In addition, it says that the venom becomes caustic, meaning that they aren't implying that being poisoned doesn't create acid that does damage, but rather that the venom itself is caustic, presumably because it's acidic (though it's not like there are different damage types for different types of chemical burns in DnD). Anything that is caustic will be caustic regardless of what it's used against.
Target has to be good. Are you good?
No, I'm better than good. I'm great.
You realize that neither you nor your animal companion can use these in Fleshraker form? Unless Fleshrakers can talk (then you can, but your Animal companion cannot -- let me know if you need a link to why this is true)?
Go for it, activated command. Show me where it says animal speach is invalid for a trigger. Its an activation action, thats why its a standard to use.
LOL. The secret of my success : I keep the score.
I guess since you are both player and DM, we shouldn't be surprised that you end up winning all the encounters and the people you don't like (casters) end up losing...
Thats it in a nutshell. He is quibbling details when I've already posted the encounter for 2x CR5 challenges at the same time. Ok, so if the build is HALF as effective then it passes.
On the other hand his melee build kinda sorta passes. If you play the monsters like forest gump and allow multiple questionable rulings.
Personally, I want to know: what part of a noncorporeal entity does the acid eat away? Assuming that the acid damage is carried by the circulatory system through a creature, does a noncorporeal creature have a system for carrying the acid throughout the non-existant system of a non-entity? Does the acid lodge in the body of a creature, eating its way outward, and so eat outward through the non-flesh of a noncorporeal creature?
What part of an incorporeal creature is affected by a weapon? Does it slice through the flesh that isn't there?
Why isn't immunity to acid and weapons listed in all incorporeal creatures?
No, I'm better than good. I'm great.
Just checking, from the description you gave of your character with the hireling, I was not confident of the "Good" Alignment
Go for it, activated command. Show me where it says animal speach is invalid for a trigger. Its an activation action, thats why its a standard to use.
From Rules of the Game:
Command Word:ShowThis is the default activation method for rings, rods, and wondrous items when the item description doesn't mention another activation method. To use a command word item, you speak the command word and the item activates. You need no other special knowledge, but you must hold or wear the item as appropriate for that item (see Part One).
Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If a command word item produces a spell effect and that spell has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is the item's activation time.
A command word usually is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.
As noted in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 produces the word itself. If you fail that check, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into what the word might be. For example, a successful check to gain insight might indicate the sort of word the command might be, such as an ancient word for "fire" or a rhyming couplet related to the item's function.
You could possibly pick up a command word when you witness the item being used. I recommend a DC 15 Listen check. Subtract 5 from the DC if the area is fairly quiet and add 5 to the DC if the area is very noisy (such as a typical battle). Also apply the DC modifiers from the Listen skill description. If you have at least 5 ranks in the Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) skills, you get a +2 bonus on the check.
Remember that a command word item is pretty easy to use. These tricks won't help you figure out how to use a spell completion or spell trigger item.
The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words, as noted in the spell descriptions.
Some command-activated items use a command thought or other nonverbal command instead of command word (if so, the item description will say so). Such items work just like command word items in play, except that you can't make a Listen check to learn the command word. You might, however, pick up the command using a detect thoughts spell at the right moment or by making a Spot check, as appropriate for the item in question.
What part of an incorporeal creature is affected by a weapon? Does it slice through the flesh that isn't there?
Why isn't immunity to acid and weapons listed in all incorporeal creatures?
Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.
There you go ... immunity to normal acid and weapons ...
Just checking, from the description you gave of your character with the hireling, I was not confident of the "Good" Alignment
From Rules of the Game:
From Rules of the Game
My IRL alignment has no bearing on the druids ability to cast good spells.
Those are very interesting links with 2 problems. You are assuming a spoken command word, its clear that the belt could be use activated and therefor elidgble for a purely mental command.
The second problem is my animal companion is infact capable of speach thanks to speak with animal being active.
Thank you come again.
There you go ... immunity to normal acid and weapons ...
Except say, if the acid were a result of a magical spell amirite?
Edit: As a side note that would make an incorporeal creature immune to say, a flaming sword. The sword is magic, the claw is magic, check and check. The acid is an elemental effect produced by magic, the fire from the sword is an effect produced by magic. Check and check. As you used burning blade against the wraith you already have argued against your new stance. Would you care to go back and refigure your attempt? If not I can certainly do it for you. Or maybe you would like to reconsider your position on the status of maneuvers not being magic and adepts not being spellcasters?
My IRL alignment has no bearing on the druids ability to cast good spells.
Completely correct, which is why I asked you your alignment and took your answer as correct. This is identical to how I ask people "Is this how you would act, or is it metagaming" and they say "it is how I act" and i saw "ok, makes sense"
Those are very interesting links with 2 problems. You are assuming a spoken command word, its clear that the belt could be use activated and therefor elidgble for a purely mental command.
I assume spoken command word, as that is what the article says. It says "if it isn't this, then the magic item will tell you", since the magic item DOESN'T say it, then it defaults to the normal, spoke, command word.
The second problem is my animal companion is infact capable of speach thanks to speak with animal being active.
What part of Speak with Animals allows an animal companion to say command words? (please quote and BOLD for me please)
Speak with Animals
Show
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level
You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.
Level: Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level
You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.
Second prove that animal is not a valid spoken language.
Two things. First, prove that it is a spoken command word item not a use activated item (and so elidgble for a mental command).
/me looks at item in MIC (page 110)
Activation -- and Standard (Command)
The dash is for the bonus to heal checks, the command is for the healing.
Second prove that animal is not a valid spoken language.
I don't know what to say. I show you where the game designers say animals cannot do it and you disagree.
Edit: As a side note that would make an incorporeal creature immune to say, a flaming sword. The sword is magic, the claw is magic, check and check. The acid is an elemental effect produced by magic, the fire from the sword is an effect produced by magic. Check and check. As you used burning blade against the wraith you already have argued against your new stance. Would you care to go back and refigure your attempt? If not I can certainly do it for you. Or maybe you would like to reconsider your position on the status of maneuvers not being magic and adepts not being spellcasters?
Does the claw deal acid damage (like the sword does) or does the venom (poison -- which it is immune to)?
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
:heehee Hilarious. The old "I can't hear you! Nah nah nah nah!" argument. Works every time.
Linky
*EDIT* WTF Meyer, unblock Grizley. He's a contestant, and his build needs clarification.
I do agree that he's been very frustrating, and furthermore keeps metagaming to change his build/tactics (I didn't need the CON buff - so replace that with Barkskin, oh sending Pouncy in against the wraith was a bad move - undo that and do this instead, etc). There's a difference between changing build illegalities (Imp. Grapple) and metagaming, and my contention is that Grizley crossed the line.
Healing Belt requires Command activation, Scintillating Scales can't be a potion, etc. I also have a bit of a problem with him claiming to be good after claiming to worship Malar and being willing to simply maul a hireling instead of paying.
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
In that case, I'm done with this thread. Bye.
In that case, I'm done with this thread. Bye.
I'm gone as well.
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
Really?
That's... mature. It pretty much screams "I'm not actually interested in discussing things, I just wanted to prove you wrong."
In which case there is really no point in anyone hanging around and continuing this thread.
Really?
That's... mature.
What do you want?
I say "You cannot use healing belt"
He says "Yes I can, prove I cannot"
I say "here"
He says "thats not good enough"
I say "Your animal companion cannot use healing belt"
He says "Yes I can, prove I cannot"
I say "here"
He says "thats not good enough"
I say "Ask CustServ about venomfire, but as it stands it is not legal, per my understanding of these rules"
He says "i don't need to ask them, so I win"
etc.
We cannot agree upon the baseline for rules. As it stands, what will more discussion help? But, if you think it helps (unblocks)
Does the claw deal acid damage (like the sword does) or does the venom (poison -- which it is immune to)?
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
"Oh noes! I am losing my arguments badly, better block everyone that disagrees with me!"
The sad thing is I actually agreed with your premise that non-casters were more powerful than casters at level 5. However, as the thread progressed I found your presentation so irritating that I gravitated toward arguing against you. In the end, I think I have changed my mind based on the evidence presented in this thread, casters are more powerful than non-casters, even at level 5.
Bye.
Does the claw deal acid damage (like the sword does) or does the venom (poison -- which it is immune to)?
This was the last response. You are now blocked.
Translation: I have realized no matter how many nits I pick there is simply no way the druid loses. Since it completely and utterly invalidates my premise I will simply ignore the issue. I'm taking my ball and going home.
We cannot agree upon the baseline for rules. As it stands, what will more discussion help? But, if you think it helps (unblocks)
The problem is that you don't so much disagree on the rules as dictate them. See the prone flying thing (designers said you can't be prone while flying, but you rule the opposite regardless), punishing stance (well, until CustServ answers, we'll go with the ruling that makes no sense), the rug room (It's totally metagaming to insist that the rug be placed in a reasonable location), etc, while consistently making similar rulings against casters (command word animals, venomfire).
At this point, you're not optimizing your character for D&D, you're optimizing D&D for your character. Guess what that's called.
P.S. For the record, if I were making the rulings, prone flying would not work, punishing stance would not work, the rug room would be left alone (but other characters would be also allowed to abuse it), animals would not use command words, and venomfire would work (but be banned, because I would've restricted setting-specific sources from the beginning to keep lots of stuff out). Neither here nor there, but just showing that I'm not being completely one-sided.
LOL. I love how not only did I quote Serpent Kingdoms and MM3 about Vemonfire and Fleshrakers, but I accused Grizley of metagaming - and no one even noticed.
Linky
*EDIT* WTF Meyer, unblock Grizley. He's a contestant, and his build needs clarification.
I do agree that he's been very frustrating, and furthermore keeps metagaming to change his build/tactics (I didn't need the CON buff - so replace that with Barkskin, oh sending Pouncy in against the wraith was a bad move - undo that and do this instead, etc). There's a difference between changing build illegalities (Imp. Grapple) and metagaming, and my contention is that Grizley crossed the line.
Healing Belt requires Command activation, Scintillating Scales can't be a potion, etc. I also have a bit of a problem with him claiming to be good after claiming to worship Malar and being willing to simply maul a hireling instead of paying.
Its not that I changed my action about sending Pouncy after the wraith, I still tell Pouncy to attack and he says, "What are you fricking nuts? That thing is undead and frightening to me, even though I have no problem chewing on any of the other 38045827 flavors of undead."
I haven't changed my buffs active until I redid my build and then I only added. I still have extra slots for spells and items and things open if any of the CO druid masters want to comment.
Also I never claimed to worship Malar, I simply said a druid CAN worship Malar and infact could gain mechanical benefit for doing so. That was in response to an increidibly trivial nitpick about the manticore attacking a peon who was there to put on armor instead of the 2 giant venom dripping dinosaurs.
I can appriciate that you find me frustrating, but that is probably because I am finding Meyers arguments incredibly biased and frustrating myself.
Now Meyer, lets play a little game. You go ahead and disallow anything you want out of the druid build and run the numbers. Rule anything you like. Run the tactics however you like, metagame the monsters etc. I don't care.
Then when you are finished with that I will do the same for your build. Agreed?
Or we can nominate a third party to arbitrate disputes. Your call.
Personally, I agree with blocking Grizley. He's been frustrating just to read, I can imagine being the one having to reply to him.
The only reason I stood for unblocking is that I never block people, and it looks childish even when it's justified.
I still say his build is out for a lot more reasons than his presentation and attitude. I think the burden of proof is on him to prove why it's not metagaming to change his posted tactics of forcing Pouncy to pounce the wraith.
*EDIT* You have the attack trick twice to force it to attack unnatural creatures. "That things weird, I dun wanna attack it." "Just kill it Pouncy, it's cool."
Ah, I wasn't sure if you had changed the spells used in the second build. I just remembered the barkskin comment.
I'm still confused about Vemonfire. The physics part of me wants to say a caustic liquid is corrosive, but my reading of the rules says D&D has magic, hard alignment boundaries, people selling ladders as poles for profit, etc. Why not poisons that metabolize into acids?
The problem is that you don't so much disagree on the rules as dictate them. See the prone flying thing (designers said you can't be prone while flying, but you rule the opposite regardless), punishing stance (well, until CustServ answers, we'll go with the ruling that makes no sense), the rug room (It's totally metagaming to insist that the rug be placed in a reasonable location), etc, while consistently making similar rulings against casters (command word animals, venomfire).
Re: Prone, can you post/PM me the rules on non-winged fliers not being able to be prone?
Re: punishing stance, I posted this in the meantime to the classes thread, in the ToB Opinions thread and they validated it. Now, that means nothing, but it is something I did.
re: rug room. If people would like the rug room changed. Post the layout and position for each opponent in each room and its size, and lets see if anything changes. Seriously. My contention is, and has always been, someone saying "The room needs to change size to X so you lose". You realize though, that in the rug room, I redid the fight to drop the flight spell. Since consensus is that my flight spell is still active (points to all the min/level spells active), then the rug room is a trivial encounter.
Re: command word: I posted the rules per the game designers on it.
re: venomfire: I posted the rules (per my understanding) which you might not agree with, but were not my making things up.
At this point, you're not optimizing your character for D&D, you're optimizing D&D for your character. Guess what that's called.
This is why I have not posted any encounters. It would be too easy for someone to say that I stacked things in my favor (spellcasters who cast dispel magic, antimagic areas, etc).
P.S. For the record, if I were making the rulings, prone flying would not work, punishing stance would not work, the rug room would be left alone (but other characters would be also allowed to abuse it), animals would not use command words, and venomfire would work (but be banned, because I would've restricted setting-specific sources from the beginning to keep lots of stuff out). Neither here nor there, but just showing that I'm not being completely one-sided.
Gotcha.
I still say his build is out for a lot more reasons than his presentation and attitude. I think the burden of proof is on him to prove why it's not metagaming to change his posted tactics of forcing Pouncy to pounce the wraith.
And even I did FORCE him into range, which I'm pretty sure telling him to attack doesn't qualify as, then he would go inside 30' panic and step right back out to 35' and stop.
As I offered Meyer he can run it so the wraith charges at Pouncy instead of the druid, he can rule Pouncy has to run 200' feet and lose some of his buffs if he wants. But if he does that then I will run his charecter through the challenge with my metagaming of the monsters and making the close rule calls as I see fit. As long as we are dealing with consistant standards I have no problem. Any time one person is a contestant and a judge in a challenge there are serious questions about the validity of the rulings.
Or we could do it democraticly. Whenever a trouble like this arises each person votes what ruling is correct in a 24 hour period and the majority wins. Would this be ok with everybody? After all, in deep D&D is mostly done by the players.
That is effectively what Meyer is doing here. Trying to both make rulings, even when they fly in the face of majority opinion AND submit a build. I have no problem with voting, but that would either make this page quite long or spam the CO boards with a bunch of poll threads.
PS. Don't even suggest that we just PM our vote to Meyer. "Well results are in guys, its 36 to 0 that I can go prone while flying!"
Re: Prone, can you post/PM me the rules on non-winged fliers not being able to be prone?
I think it was from a Rules of the Game Article, which are pretty hit and miss as far as interpreting the rules.
Re: Prone, can you post/PM me the rules on non-winged fliers not being able to be prone?
Spells such as fly and overland flight actually grant the subject a fly speed for a time, and creatures using the spells are subject to all the rules on flight discussed in Parts Three and Four.
Presumably that means four and five, because three doesn't contain any rules on flight.
A creature cannot drop prone while flying. If a flying creature lands, it can drop prone as a free action.
Seems pretty conclusive to me.
Re: punishing stance, I posted this in the meantime to the classes thread, in the ToB Opinions thread and they validated it. Now, that means nothing, but it is something I did.
So, if someone did that with Venomfire (except the right context) that would be good enough (barring a CustServ ruling to the contrary)?
re: rug room. If people would like the rug room changed.
I did specifically say I wouldn't change this, because it helps everyone equally if they just write the tactics to abuse it. That was just an eample.
This is why I have not posted any encounters. It would be too easy for someone to say that I stacked things in my favor (spellcasters who cast dispel magic, antimagic areas, etc).
So, you're choosing every single remotely ambiguous ruling, and even a few that aren't, and you're being even handed because you didn't pick what monsters you're fighting?
In the opening post, there are 7 caster nerfs, of which, none make a difference if a character can actually complete the gauntlet, but instead it means tedious hours of re-running numbers.
Non caster-nerfs? Why, there are none!
I see him using constant fillibuster tactics. Some of this is not about finding the right rule, but simply delaying people and causing pain and havoc so he can say "Look, no caster completed the gauntlet without rules violations!"
Well Meyers, there are still concerns about your build's completion of the original gauntlet, that several casters have successfully completed (like mine), where you rule in your own favour.
I am seeing gross inconsistancies here, where ambiguous rulings are always disadvantageous to casters, but always advantageous to melees, and that throws this entire thread into disrepute.
Also, your very descriptions in the first post are sometimes odd. "15: Jo Pistachio: Abjurer: Tactics, prepare by casting explosive runes on stuff. Follow up with reading them." Perhaps you should organize it into successes, questionable successes, and failures? If you divide it like that, Casters have 2 clear successes, and melee's have one - a rogue that relies in buying a casters service for success. Looks like melees got this one, eh?
Does the claw deal acid damage (like the sword does) or does the venom (poison -- which it is immune to)?
from what im seeing ... notice this:
1)something Immune to Poison.... means it is immune to DAMAGE from Poison, not like an Ironguard Spell where Iron passes thru you.... you simply dont take Damage from Poison itself, if you were Submerged in Posion... you would Drown, you could not say "im immune to poison so any other effects that result from it dont affect me"
2)the spell ADDs an Additional Effect that is Separate from Poison Damage
it says venom deals acid damage, but it still works.
This is not adding an extra d6 of poison (acid) damage, it is adding an extra d6 of acid damage, it even has the acid descriptor.
In no way does immunity to poison grant immunity to any attack that happens to accompany poison
this is similar to saying that an immune to fire creature would take no damage from an energy admixture (acid) fireball, since he is immune to fire
also this is different from the listing for Poison...notice:
Poison (Ex): Poison attacks deal initial damage, such as ability damage (see page 305) or some other effect, to the opponent on a failed Fortitude save. Unless otherwise noted, another saving throw is required 1 minute later (regardless of the first save’s result) to avoid secondary damage. A creature’s descriptive text provides the details.
A creature with a poison attack is immune to its own poison and the poison of others of its kind.
The Fortitude save DC against a poison attack is equal to 10 + 1/2 poisoning creature’s racial HD + poisoning creature’s Con modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
A successful save avoids (negates) the damage.
Also see Poison under Special Abilities.
and
POISON
When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw. If he fails, he takes the poison’s initial damage (usually ability damage). Even if he succeeds, he typically faces more damage 1 minute later, which he can also avoid with a successful Fortitude saving throw.
One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it). Any poison smeared on an object or exposed to the elements in any way remains potent until it is touched or used.
Although supernatural and spell-like poisons are possible, poisonous effects are almost always extraordinary.
Poisons can be divided into four basic types according to the method by which their effect is delivered, as follows.
Contact: Merely touching this type of poison necessitates a saving throw. It can be actively delivered via a weapon or a touch attack. Even if a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison can still affect it. A chest or other object can be smeared with contact poison as part of a trap.
Ingested: Ingested poisons are virtually impossible to utilize in a combat situation. A poisoner could administer a potion to an unconscious creature or attempt to dupe someone into drinking or eating something poisoned. Assassins and other characters tend to use ingested poisons outside of combat.
Inhaled: Inhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)
Injury: This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.
The characteristics of poisons are summarized on Table: Poisons. Terms on the table are defined below.
Type: The poison’s method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or via an injury) and the Fortitude save DC to avoid the poison’s damage.
Initial Damage: The damage the character takes immediately upon failing his saving throw against this poison. Ability damage is temporary unless marked with an asterisk (*), in which case the loss is a permanent drain. Paralysis lasts for 2d6 minutes.
Secondary Damage: The amount of damage the character takes 1 minute after exposure as a result of the poisoning, if he fails a second saving throw. Unconsciousness lasts for 1d3 hours. Ability damage marked with an asterisk is permanent drain instead of temporary damage.
Price: The cost of one dose (one vial) of the poison. It is not possible to use or apply poison in any quantity smaller than one dose. The purchase and possession of poison is always illegal, and even in big cities it can be obtained only from specialized, less than reputable sources.
Perils of Using Poison
A character has a 5% chance of exposing himself to a poison whenever he applies it to a weapon or otherwise readies it for use. Additionally, a character who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon.
Poison Immunities
Creatures with natural poison attacks are immune to their own poison. Nonliving creatures (constructs and undead) and creatures without metabolisms (such as elementals) are always immune to poison. Oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders are also immune to poison, although conceivably special poisons could be concocted specifically to harm them.
the fact that the ACID Damage doe NOT require a Fortitude save to Negate/reduce ... shows that the posion is simply the carrier for the spell effect
personally i dont have a problem with allowing the Venomfire to add some extra damage..... exa:
if a Sorceror/Monk hits a creature with DR 10/- with an Unarmed Strike charged with Vampiric Touch... Hits but only does 9 points of damage.... does the Vampiric Touch go Off.... ??? i would say yes, the requirement was to actually Touch(melee touch attack, or Unarmed Strike) the opponent....... the fact that the hit did not overcome the DR is irrelevant... he did touch him
creatures Immune to Poison might not take and Ability Damage from the Poison, but would take Acid Damage... unless they were Immune to Acid also
as for the Prone While Flying..... ???? .... i havent been paying close enough attention..... but i dont think its possible.... relative Facing while moving in 3 dimensions doesnt allow for it ...... i could be flying upside down but consider myself upright ..... actual facing means a flying creature cannot be prone.... in fact there are no rules saying anything about it.... there are rules for :
Tactical Aerial Movement
Once movement becomes three-dimensional and involves turning in midair and maintaining a minimum velocity to stay aloft, it gets more complicated. Most flying creatures have to slow down at least a little to make a turn, and many are limited to fairly wide turns and must maintain a minimum forward speed. Each flying creature has a maneuverability, as shown on Table: Maneuverability. The entries on the table are defined below.
Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.
Hover: The ability to stay in one place while airborne.
Move Backward: The ability to move backward without turning around.
Reverse: A creature with good maneuverability uses up 5 feet of its speed to start flying backward.
Turn: How much the creature can turn after covering the stated distance.
Turn in Place: A creature with good or average maneuverability can use some of its speed to turn in place.
Maximum Turn: How much the creature can turn in any one space.
Up Angle: The angle at which the creature can climb.
Up Speed: How fast the creature can climb.
Down Angle: The angle at which the creature can descend.
Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.
Between Down and Up: An average, poor, or clumsy flier must fly level for a minimum distance after descending and before climbing. Any flier can begin descending after a climb without an intervening distance of level flight.
Prone is not there .... however it is here:
Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a
:D
Thank you for the support.
Now Meyer, lets play a little game. You go ahead and disallow anything you want out of the druid build and run the numbers. Rule anything you like. Run the tactics however you like, metagame the monsters etc. I don't care.
Anything I disallow is either based on the rules I posted on post 1, or based on my understanding of the rules. I have been corrected before occasionally and expect to be corrected going forward as well.
I do not plan on performing any metagaming (look to the previous entrants, read my posts on each and every one of them). For the most part, I have been fair. Annoying perhaps, but fair (in my mind). Since contestants still come and people still post, I think that people's actions tend to agree with me on this. If you see how many posts have been sent asking me to (re)examine their build, the posts agree with this as well.
Then when you are finished with that I will do the same for your build. Agreed?
Or we can nominate a third party to arbitrate disputes. Your call.
My build has been ran through by no less than 5 people already. I have no interest in anyone else running it.
The third party I nominated was custserv to resolve disputes. If you would rather not take advantage of that resource, I do not know what to tell you.
i want a flamewar too!
So, if someone did that with Venomfire (except the right context) that would be good enough (barring a CustServ ruling to the contrary)?
It looks like people would like to do that, so I have no objection to it. Bear in mind, that when I did that, it was in addition to Otto's post to CustServ. As it stands, no one has offered to email CustServ.
So, you're choosing every single remotely ambiguous ruling, and even a few that aren't, and you're being even handed because you didn't pick what monsters you're fighting?
Something like that. /sarcasm
Anything I disallow is either based on the rules I posted on post 1, or based on my understanding of the rules. I have been corrected before occasionally and expect to be corrected going forward as well.
In other words, making rulings.
I do not plan on performing any metagaming (look to the previous entrants, read my posts on each and every one of them). For the most part, I have been fair. Annoying perhaps, but fair (in my mind). Since contestants still come and people still post, I think that people's actions tend to agree with me on this. If you see how many posts have been sent asking me to (re)examine their build, the posts agree with this as well.
You may agree you fair, but other people tend to disagree. You have maybe 1 or 2 people on your side re: venomfire and nearly everyone else against.
My build has been ran through by no less than 5 people already. I have no interest in anyone else running it.
The third party I nominated was custserv to resolve disputes. If you would rather not take advantage of that resource, I do not know what to tell you.
If you aren't interested in me running your build then I will run my own whenever you are done trying to find fault with the build. Give me a full list by say, 5PM PST tonight. If you haven't objected by then then I assume you won't in the future.
I have already mailed custserv re: venomfire. Hours ago actually.
i havent been able to contact Tshern ... so i will post our Character.....
since i dont know which CR5 encounters you are using now.... i gave tactics for All creatures listed in both...... this character is equiped as i would normally for regular Adventuring.....and since she is attempting to Solo this Dungeon... im assuming it was because of a Drunken Bet with her Party members over her bragging about her abilities ..... she has sobered up and realizes the stupidity of the bet... so will go all out to survive
Scintillating scales cannot be made into a potion. Without that, your touch AC is low enough that the wraith/rug/snake can each hit you.
your grapple check is low enough that the rug/snake can beat you.
If you would like, I can post a more detailed examination.
My list of objections to post 1388
1) No alignment listed yet you need to be good (this is a simple fix)
2) Multi-attack. How do you qualify at level 1? You do not have 3 or more natural attacks
3) Potions of Scintillating scales. These are not legal per what I posted before.
4) Neither you nor your animal can use belts of healing. Additionally, how do you put it on as a fleshraker?
5) You have not listed tricks known for the fleshraker animal companion.
6) (deleted)
(the next two are questions, not objections)
7) How far are you from encounter 1 when you start buffing?
8) What speed movement do you plan on doing as a team?
I think the other ridiculous thing, is like Meyers criticism of "You can't use a 2d6 weapon, you have to use a 1d8 weapon because the rules are ambiguous, and in the case of ambiguous rules, I rule against you", it adds another hour of re-running numbers to my build, but in the end, changes nothing in terms of ability to complete the encounter.
In the opening post, there are 7 caster nerfs, of which, none make a difference if a character can actually complete the gauntlet, but instead it means tedious hours of re-running numbers.
Non caster-nerfs? Why, there are none!
Have you any idea of the time it takes to review these things in addition to real life? I posted the caster nerfs so that people can refer to them easier as well as possibly getting people to post comments to CustServ about them.
I am sure there are melee nerfs as well -- I am trying to reread from post 1 to find them.
I see him using constant fillibuster tactics. Some of this is not about finding the right rule, but simply delaying people and causing pain and havoc so he can say "Look, no caster completed the gauntlet without rules violations!"
And notice, there are casters (yourself for instance) who completed almost everything as well (you are currently seeing if you can beat the vampire). I haven't been able to say "Casters have no completed this" in quite a while ... because you have!
Well Meyers, there are still concerns about your build's completion of the original gauntlet, that several casters have successfully completed (like mine), where you rule in your own favour.
Yes there is ... which is why my post has that little "there are issues with me" note next to it.
Also, your very descriptions in the first post are sometimes odd. "15: Jo Pistachio: Abjurer: Tactics, prepare by casting explosive runes on stuff. Follow up with reading them." Perhaps you should organize it into successes, questionable successes, and failures? If you divide it like that, Casters have 2 clear successes, and melee's have one - a rogue that relies in buying a casters service for success. Looks like melees got this one, eh?
Is that an accurate description of number 15? Notice all the ones that say I need to review them still?
From the reading of the feat "Natural Bond" plus the Alternate Animal companions, I do not think these stack. The druid handbook seems to agree with me on this, as it says it is up to the DM.
"I don't think this works, and the only other completely unofficial source I could find doesn't say one way or the other." Is your reasoning?
So... "because I say so."
Deleted new tactics due to it not solving anything.
It still relies upon the manticore taking certain tactics.
From the reading of the feat "Natural Bond" plus the Alternate Animal companions, I do not think these stack. The druid handbook seems to agree with me on this, as it says it is up to the DM.
"I don't think this works, and the only other completely unofficial source I could find doesn't say one way or the other." Is your reasoning?
So... "because I say so."
Good call. Lets remove this objection as it makes no difference either way.
Second of all, if you somehow set up round 1 as you posted, if the manticore is flying he MUST take a move action or fall from the sky and die. He moves 5' sees you, spikes you and then flys the rest of his movement in a random direction. You are at .5 hp and have no idea where he is.
The reason I ask this is that still means that on round 2 the manticore flys forward, spikes you and then flys into the darkness again. He can hit and run you without you being allowed to retaliate. He has flyby attack remeber.
I thought fly-by attack was "can make one attack", not "can let loose a volley of spikes" -- which it actually is. Looks like these new tactics lose as well unless i can end my turn at one movement distance from him.
Looks like I need to just by-pass the manticore then ... (higher speed means it cannot reach me, if it wants to land then i can easily kill him).
Fly forward 10', spike you, continue flying another 40' say directly left or right of you, or even away from you just 5'.
Then you can't see him and so can't charge him. You can move up, but then you get spiked on turn 3. You can move away and heal but then this all happens again when you get back.
The problem is you need to be at full hp to survive a spike volley and he has flyby attack.
EDIT: Ah, you see now. Yeah flyby is a standard action. Pretty sure the volley of spikes is an attack action anyway. I suspect the flyby is any standard mostly to provide for dragons. I used flyby/breath weapon as the basis of a charecter so I'm up on the flyby rules ;)
I think this thread shows more than ever the power of druids.
Why so? All I am seeing is blatant abuse and missinterperetation of basic rules in feeble attempts to make druids more powerful. "Animal" is now a language... rrright. And animals can put themselves armor... which is not barding... because the books don't say they can't... yeah. Sure, whatever.
I think I am going to run another character through the gauntlet. He will have a wild cohort (as for the feat) and it will be a horse... PAO-ed into a fleshraker. Because anyone can have a fleshraker.
I think I can do it far better than the druid, at least I can promise I won't need 12 versions and try to **** the rules three times in each fight before getting the basics right.
On a different tentacle. What did custserv say about the use of the maneuvers? It has been several days and generally they are quick with the answers.
I also removed the barding from both dinos even though there was no argument the pet can use it. Keep in mind people were saying that I couldn't even have a peasant follow me for a couple gold and put armor on me. Suuure.
I'll look forward to seeing your entry. Of course even if you succeed we already agreed chars using PAO are in a sub category. With an asterisk like the Barry Bonds home run ball.
BTW, thank you for pointing out Wild Cohort. Now its a pack of 3 dinos headed into the cave. The druid can lose Multiattack to make room since Meyer objected to that anyway. And all of mine share my buffs, and are large. Are yours?
I'll look forward to seeing your entry. Of course even if you succeed we already agreed chars using PAO are in a sub category. With an asterisk like the Barry Bonds home run ball.
Arguad ... I hate to agree with him, but another PAO build? What will this show that the old one (Rogue PAO) didn't?
Now, getting a fleshraker yourself and going through the dungeon similarly to the caster ... would reduce his claim to caster overpoweredness. Especially if you buy scrolls/potions identically.
BTW, thank you for pointing out Wild Cohort. Now its a pack of 3 dinos headed into the cave. The druid can lose Multiattack to make room since Meyer objected to that anyway. And all of mine share my buffs, and are large. Are yours?
My objection to multi-attack was per the rules (you do not have 3+ natural attacks). If you disagree, fine. Else, please do not say "Meyer objected to that" as I am already known on this thread for heavy-handedness and statements like this make it worse.
My objection to multi-attack was per the rules (you do not have 3+ natural attacks). If you disagree, fine. Else, please do not say "Meyer objected to that" as I am already known on this thread for heavy-handedness and statements like this make it worse.
I could probably think of a couple ways to get 3+ attacks temporarily and so quality for it. Its just not important enough for me to argue with it. Like I said I'll just replace the feat with Wild Cohort. What is the source for that though? Is it legal for this? It seems like a very poorly balanced feat like show up from time to time in dragon and web enhancements.
Else, please do not say "Meyer objected to that" as I am already known on this thread for heavy-handedness and my record of inconsistent, biased rulings makes it worse.
Fixed.
L'Avantgarde Noire
I could probably think of a couple ways to get 3+ attacks temporarily and so quality for it. Its just not important enough for me to argue with it. Like I said I'll just replace the feat with Wild Cohort. What is the source for that though? Is it legal for this? It seems like a very poorly balanced feat like show up from time to time in dragon and web enhancements.
It is indeed from a web article (Wild Life).
I'll look forward to seeing your entry. Of course even if you succeed we already agreed chars using PAO are in a sub category. With an asterisk like the Barry Bonds home run ball.
I find amusing (and hypocrital) you now pretend PAO is too cheesy when the druid is the main abuser of the same mechanics that make polymorph broken.
BTW, thank you for pointing out Wild Cohort. Now its a pack of 3 dinos headed into the cave. The druid can lose Multiattack to make room since Meyer objected to that anyway. And all of mine share my buffs, and are large. Are yours?
You need to reread the Wild Cohort feat, since it does not allow for shared spells, nor does it allow for normal fleshrakers until level 7-8 or so.
Then again you have made very clear already that rules are things that happen to other people.
Arguad ... I hate to agree with him, but another PAO build? What will this show that the old one (Rogue PAO) didn't?
Now, getting a fleshraker yourself and going through the dungeon similarly to the caster ... would reduce his claim to caster overpoweredness. Especially if you buy scrolls/potions identically.
Because, Meyer, the druid is PAO incarnate in a (badly designed) PC.
And I don't think UMD reduces the claim of overpowerness of anyone, honestly. It just makes glaring obvious some spells are broken beyond redemption, and those who use them are overpowered (casters included, of course, but not exclusively them!).
I keep using it because it seems some people here keep coming to the same power source again and again.
Mind you, I am 100% sure a druid with a fleshraker can go through the gauntlet, and likely (with the help of a wand) go through a second identical gauntlet before resting. He can do it without trying to twist and bends the RAW into a pretzel. It is annoying Grizley keeps trying to do the pretzel thing and I am not surprised Meyer (or anyone) would want to block out his posts.
My build has been ran through by no less than 5 people already.
Are you going to fix your entry's attempt against the bone creatures?
-=-=-==--=
On a different note, is getting answers to questions usually this slow? I did the 'Ask Wizards' bit a day after Meyer agreed to the question, and still no response. I included two other questions as well, but none of them were terribly complex.
Sure, when I get time for it ... but honestly, checking all these things from various books, real life, and trying to figure out what is what .. I have been slow in doing so. I did update the first post with my error, so that it is apparent that the build did not complete the crypt as well as I had initially thought.
It is indeed from a web article (Wild Life).
Ah, that clears it up. Thanks.
Argaud if you believe that the druid class is too powerful, and I don't disagree, then don't you conceed the point that casters are more powerful than melee?
Knock yourself out with UMD, but I'm pretty sure you didn't use UMD to cast PAO. The melee classes that are stronger at higher level are the ones with UMD without a doubt. This is due to them emulating casters, take that for what you will.
Also I wasn't talking about going through the gaunlet without resting, I was talking about facing double spawns. Ie. 2x manticore, 2x snake... etc. I'm pretty sure the druid can do that too, and I know the melee can't, period. I would like to see the PAO rogue do a double spawn run since it would probably be the closest.
Ah, I understand what you are saying.
I thought fly-by attack was "can make one attack", not "can let loose a volley of spikes" -- which it actually is. Looks like these new tactics lose as well unless i can end my turn at one movement distance from him.
Looks like I need to just by-pass the manticore then ... (higher speed means it cannot reach me, if it wants to land then i can easily kill him).
How far are you running away from the cave? How far are you assuming the manticore will chase you? Are you assuming he doesn't join a later encounter?
EDIT: For that matter does he spike you on the way out? If I remeber right your max hp will be ~28 on the way out and that means even 1 spike volley is fatal.
On a different note, is getting answers to questions usually this slow? I did the 'Ask Wizards' bit a day after Meyer agreed to the question, and still no response. I included two other questions as well, but none of them were terribly complex.
It is strange they have not answered yet. Usually they take 2-3 days (+weekends).
Also I wasn't talking about going through the gaunlet without resting, I was talking about facing double spawns. Ie. 2x manticore, 2x snake... etc. I'm pretty sure the druid can do that too, and I know the melee can't, period. I would like to see the PAO rogue do a double spawn run since it would probably be the closest.
I am pretty sure I can exploit UMD cheese to go through a 4x gauntlet easily. I doubt my AC would make it alive, though, all those stupid, hugging rugs...
what's with this thread ?
i want a flamewar too!
Come on Dictum, let's not let it get this far. I want to see if it can take over the first place thread by Christmas.
Have you any idea of the time it takes to review these things in addition to real life? I posted the caster nerfs so that people can refer to them easier as well as possibly getting people to post comments to CustServ about them.
I am sure there are melee nerfs as well -- I am trying to reread from post 1 to find them.
True, but you're coming to us looking for us to help demonstrate something we know is true for your benefit. And good luck with that.
And notice, there are casters (yourself for instance) who completed almost everything as well (you are currently seeing if you can beat the vampire). I haven't been able to say "Casters have no completed this" in quite a while ... because you have!
My issue is mostly that you wrote Success as the first word in your entry, when it is still ambiguous if you actually succeeded or not.
For Grizley's Build, which is a sucess regardless of the minor errors, and Jo Pistachio's abjurer, which was an overwhelming success, you just wrote their tactics. I'd say put in bold, beside each, as the first thing:
1) Complete Success
2) Ambiguous Success ---rulings to be worked out.
3) Partial Success - Won X/5 encounters.
4) Not run yet.
That gives casters at least 2 complete successes, and melee's only 1, and only when buying spells from casters.
Argaud - does relying on a caster to give you power, then taking a feat that druids get for free, in better form, really demonstrate that melee's are strong? Or demonstrate that melees can be good if they rely on casters and mimic casters?
Come on Dictum, let's not let it get this far. I want to see if it can take over the first place thread by Christmas.
At the current rate:
1500 posts/20 days= 75 posts per day
Lead on us: 8300(at negligible posts per day relative to us)-1500=6800
6800/75=
we need three more months to catch up if my estimates are close.
what's with this thread :P?
i want a flamewar too!
Hehe, post a new thread about something controversial, this thread has no room left for extraneous disagreements :D
Argaud - does relying on a caster to give you power, then taking a feat that druids get for free, in better form, really demonstrate that melee's are strong? Or demonstrate that melees can be good if they rely on casters and mimic casters?
This has been discussed a million times already. No, purchasing a spell/item that anyone can purchase does not mean the character that did the crafting/casting is more powerful or overpowered. That is like saying the weaponsmith is more powerful than the warrior because he crafts the weapons. Or the bookcrafter is more powerful than the wizard because he crafted his spellbook.
PAO is sold to anyone, just like blank books, swords, warhorses or holy symbols. If anyone can have it then it is not representative of the power of any class. If it is overpowered, then it is a problem with the item/spell, not with any class.
It is strange they have not answered yet. Usually they take 2-3 days (+weekends).
K.
The frustrating part is I cannot remember the other two questions I posed. Though they were relating to this thread.
C'est la vie
This has been discussed a million times already. No, purchasing a spell/item that anyone can purchase does not mean the character that did the crafting/casting is more powerful or overpowered. That is like saying the weaponsmith is more powerful than the warrior because he crafts the weapons. Or the bookcrafter is more powerful than the wizard because he crafted his spellbook.
Nor does it represent any facet of the character that wields the power. It's simply broken by itself.
1. how's he doing animal growth on the fleshraker? That's a L5 druid spell and it lasts rounds/level so he's not doing it from a scroll.
2. Why are people assuming that magic fang applied to one claw affects all claws? It affects ONE natural weapon
"Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls"
To do what he's listed as doing, he needs to use the second L3 spell for greater magic fang. He's got it, and companion spellbond so I'm not sure why he isn't doing it that way. Would leave him a couple L1 spells for things like faerie fire, camoflauge or obscuring mist.
As with the Alter Self as Outsider into Ancestral Dwarf stupidity, I'd like to see more caster builds with just alter self to troglodyte (+6 nat armor is bad enough) and a druid build that uses companions and forms from the MM1. Most of those builds just die becase AC in the low-mid-20s instead of mid-30s results in way too much damage taken compared to their rather pathetic output at these CR's, and a grapple is an autolose vs the snake or rug with most builds if it connects.
Just as a baseline....similar to the Joe Fighter build, more representative of what people actually do. I think though for druid you really need a L6 build for it to work well. I also just despise the whole "Two powerful feats for two flaws that don't hurt me" mechanic everyone is using. But as the noncasters and casters both do it, I'm not going to quibble too much.
I'd do my trapfinding tank, a real L5 character fairly well suited to these kinds of challenges but it has a couple beguiler levels and I think that's not allowed, there was a "no gish" thing somewhere in the rules.
All of my other characters (casters and otherwise except) except possibly my warchanter (who had 2 bard levels at L5 and thus would be disqualified) would have been smoked by 1-3 of the encounters when they were level 5 using actual builds played in real games. Of course none of them were allowed to be outsiders, the polymorph tree was banned when all but one arcane caster came online (and when it was, only MM forms were legal), tome of blood isn't allowed, flaws aren't allowed, animal companions come from the PHB lists and exalted feats are very rare in this campaign.
Regarding the explosive runes guy...Kudos on figuring out a way to not affect the caster and thus can discharge by just reading it, instead of fussing with erase or dispel magic triggering techniques. That was clever.
I'm not very impressed with the Outsider/Polymorph builds. They just die if they don't have access to Ancestral Dwarf. The cleric and other arcane and melee builds were interesting. I liked the various stealth approaches, but need to point out that wraiths have lifesense and can attack people who are burrowing with nothing more than 50% miss chance, and are undetectable by scent or blindsense. A lot of folks are making assumptions about the wraith that don't actually work. There is also the problem that the dragon, knowing that the rug hadn't been triggered by lack of combat sounds from there, could, if losing, lead the sneaky attacker back into the rug room.
I liked the various stealth approaches, but need to point out that wraiths have lifesense and can attack people who are burrowing with nothing more than 50% miss chance
The Dread Wraith has that. The normal one doesn't.
I'm curious as to why people have not pointed out a couple of other things in the druid build.
1. how's he doing animal growth on the fleshraker? That's a L5 druid spell and it lasts rounds/level so he's not doing it from a scroll.
Minutes per level based off the SRD I am looking at. But you bring up a good point, there is a chance of failure reading the scroll. Very slight, but on par with the chance of a UMD character rolling a nat 1.
2. Why are people assuming that magic fang applied to one claw affects all claws? It affects ONE natural weapon
"Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls"
To do what he's listed as doing, he needs to use the second L3 spell for greater magic fang. He's got it, and companion spellbond so I'm not sure why he isn't doing it that way. Would leave him a couple L1 spells for things like faerie fire, camoflauge or obscuring mist.
Because we assume that the fleshraker can claw with both claws? which I guess doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing these out.
As with the Alter Self as Outsider into Ancestral Dwarf stupidity, I'd like to see more caster builds with just alter self to troglodyte (+6 nat armor is bad enough) and a druid build that uses companions and forms from the MM1. Most of those builds just die becase AC in the low-mid-20s instead of mid-30s results in way too much damage taken compared to their rather pathetic output at these CR's, and a grapple is an autolose vs the snake or rug with most builds if it connects.
Just as a baseline....similar to the Joe Fighter build, more representative of what people actually do. I think though for druid you really need a L6 build for it to work well. I also just despise the whole "Two powerful feats for two flaws that don't hurt me" mechanic everyone is using. But as the noncasters and casters both do it, I'm not going to quibble too much.
Ah, that would be interesting, but would not be an example of an overpowered spellcaster. It would be an average one -- which would be boring and a discussion for the classes boards, not the char opt boards. As far as flaws are concerned, on the Char Op board here, it is almost taken for granted.
I'd do my trapfinding tank, a real L5 character fairly well suited to these kinds of challenges but it has a couple beguiler levels and I think that's not allowed, there was a "no gish" thing somewhere in the rules.
Yup, You cannot prove that noncasters are onpar with casters when you need to include caster levels. Is it possible to do the trapfinder as a rogue instead of beguiler?
All of my other characters (casters and otherwise except) except possibly my warchanter (who had 2 bard levels at L5 and thus would be disqualified) would have been smoked by 1-3 of the encounters when they were level 5 using actual builds played in real games. Of course none of them were allowed to be outsiders, the polymorph tree was banned when all but one arcane caster came online (and when it was, only MM forms were legal), tome of blood isn't allowed, flaws aren't allowed, animal companions come from the PHB lists and exalted feats are very rare in this campaign.
I would have to agree. The hardest thing for me is the manticore. Flying plus all those attacks. My builds are usually low AC so that is hard to survive.
Nor does it represent any facet of the character that wields the power. It's simply broken by itself.
I have to agree with you.
So what is the druid, half his supposed power is fueled by the same broken mechanic?
I have to agree with you.
So what is the druid, half his supposed power is fueled by the same broken mechanic?
Argaud,
First step is finding examples of overpowered casters ...
Second step is to examine the examples to see what makes them overpowered (whether it is cheaply and easily replicated abilities or insane class abilities (not replicatable))
I have to agree with you.
So what is the druid, half his supposed power is fueled by the same broken mechanic?
Technically they are only similar, not based of the same spell anymore. Its been like that for a while.
I haven't even been touching the possibilities of wearing a +2 con item, wildshaping and then wearing ANOTHER +2 con item. It works RAW but its kinda dumb.
Technically they are only similar, not based of the same spell anymore. Its been like that for a while.
I haven't even been touching the possibilities of wearing a +2 con item, wildshaping and then wearing ANOTHER +2 con item. It works RAW but its kinda dumb.
It does not work by custserv ruling, though.
Yeah, I did ask because on an old thread some rulelaywers kept going about how good it was for druid. I will post what custserv ruled exactly if someone is curious, but I will give a clue: common sense works.
Basic tactics are the same. If either charecter gets hurt Druid will use crusader strike and martial spirit for healing. If that isn't enough after a fight they eat goodberries until they are fully healed (8 max each). Remember they can back off and use reach to punish anyone with a 5' reach and they love to get a charge off to trip and pin opponents.
I say it passes with ease, anyone want to bet a cookie?
Worst Case Scenario Man
Druid 5 (NG)
Str: 6
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Imp Init
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 8
Handle Animal(cha) 8
Knowledge (nature) (int) 8
Listen (wis) 8
Spot (wis) 8
Flaws:
Shakey -2 to hit with ranged.
Pathetic -2 strength
Traits:
Musclebound (+1 strength checks, -1 dex checks)
Far sighted (+1 spot -1 search)
Spells:
1 -4
Goodberry
Speak with Animals
Cure light wounds x2
2 -3
Cat's grace
Bear's endurance
Bull's strength
3 -2
Venomfire
GMF
Gear purchased:
2 Scrolls of animal growth (2250)
2 Scrolls of Greater Luminous Armor (1400)
4 Potions of Enlarge person (This works on a wildshaped druid, har har) (200)
Asst scrolls of lesser resto, remove poison etc.
4150 left over gold if someone has an idea of things to buy.
16 goodberries (Free)
Buffed Fleshraker stats(Wildshape):
Large Humanoid
Speed: 50
Init +9
Bab/Grapple: 3/21 (+11 trip)
Armor Class: 28 (+5 dex +6 natural +8 armor -1 size) 14 touch, 23 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws +11 (1d8 + 8 + poison) + bite +6 (1d8 +6) + tail +6 (1d6 + 6 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Saves: 10, 6, 7
Abilities:23,21,19,10,16,8
=============================================
Active buffs for the challenge
Venomfire
Cats grace
Bears endurance
Bulls Strength
GMF
Speak with Animals
Animal Growth (Pouncy only)
Greater Luminous Armor (+8ac -4 for enemies to hit me)
=============================================
Pouncy the wonderlizard
HD 6d8
Init +5
Speed 50
Armor class +8 natural
Attack: 2 claws (1d6 + poison) + bite (1d6) + tail (1d6 + poison)
Space/reach: 5/5
Special attacks: leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+str
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: 6/8/3
Abilities 18, 20, 15, 2, 14, 12
Skills: hide +12, jump +24
Feats: INA(Claw), Track, Imp. Trip
Leaping pounce(ex): When charging it can pounce, makes full attack including rake, if it hits a target its size or smaller it can make a free trip, if it makes the trip it can make a free grapple with no aoo. If the grapple check is successfull the creature is grappled and pinned, fleshraker deals automatic claw and **** damage vs pinned opponent. If the fleshraker fails the opposed trip it cannot be tripped in return. If it trips but fails the grapple the opponent is prone but not pinned or grappled.
Poison (ex) Injury dc 12+con damage 1d6dex/1d6dex.
Share spells: Druid can have any spell cast on himself also affect companion.
Evasion: No damage on ref save
Buffed stats of note:
Pouncy the Wonderlizard (Large Animal)
HD: 6d8 +28 (55hp)
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Bab/Grapple: 4/18 (+18 trip)
Armor class: 33(+8 armor +6 dex +10 natural armor -1 size) 15 touch, 27 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws + 16(1d8 + 12 + poison) + bite +10 (1d8 +7) + tail +10 (1d6 + 7 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Special Qualities: evasion, DR 10/magic, Scent, Low-light vision
Special Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison, rake
Saves: 14,13, 7
Skills: Hide +16, Jump +29
Feats: INA Claw, Track, Imp Trip
Abilities: 30,22,23,2,14,12
Buffed poison dc is 19.
I suspect this makes a huge difference in the manticore and dragon encounters.
These are a bit metagamey to me. Together they cost about as much as getting polymorph any object cast on the commoner. It isn't something a typical character does when entering a cave....it could well be more cash than the dragon's likely to have on hand. The animal growth alone casts 1125gp. I didn't start packing consumables that costly on any character in a real game until level 12ish. 700gp stuff, more like level 8 and only one (like a fly potion for a fighter). Granted solo chars would carry more contingency stuff, but usually you wait for the contingency to actually come up before burning something that expensive. The fact that you have 2 of each more than compensates for spell failure chance.
What if the cave turns out to be empty? You're out 2000gp.
Note also that any scrolls of lesser restoration, etc need the druid to unwildshape to his much less impressive humanoid form. Now the animal companion may carry the day, but if he does that and then runs into something like the wraith...
this is something my own barb1/druidx pounce/wildshape build struggles with on a regular basis.
I could build my trapfinding tank with a rogue level and UMD all these scrolls too. But I'd feel dirty
As with the Alter Self as Outsider into Ancestral Dwarf stupidity, I'd like to see more caster builds with just alter self to troglodyte (+6 nat armor is bad enough) and a druid build that uses companions and forms from the MM1. Most of those builds just die becase AC in the low-mid-20s instead of mid-30s results in way too much damage taken compared to their rather pathetic output at these CR's, and a grapple is an autolose vs the snake or rug with most builds if it connects.
If I ever have time, I may post a druid summoner to this thread: cast a couple of Summon Dire Hawk spells (Races of the Wild) with a lesser rod of extend, give the hawks barkskin and mage armor (from potions, based on the premise that at least in the first challenge, you're planning to SOLO a DRAGON, so you spend a bit on cheap consumables to get their AC into the mid-20s), and let them scout ahead for you and fight stuff. If you use the two flaws, you can do Spell Focus (Conjuration) + Augment Summoning + Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) + Rapid Spell + Beckon the Frozen by L5. You'd want to prep some Rapid Summon Nature's Ally spells, Rapid Conjure Ice Beast for the cases where you want your summons to have construct immunities and/or strike as magic weapons (for beating DR / magic and hitting incorporeals), Mass Resist Energy since you expect to be fighting a dragon, and Mass Snake's Swiftness so you can give all your summons extra attacks once they get in there. A dire bat companion gives you always-on flight which should allow you to bypass some encounters and/or fight them on your terms (for example, in the first gauntlet the druid would probably just fly by the constrictor snake, and come back later to sling it to death if she felt hungry). The augmented frosty summons have pretty good HP for L5, high AC, and do a lot of damage with their full attacks - and if they die, you can summon more, although the PC would try to keep the dire hawks alive as she can't cast that spell spontaneously.
That's a character I can imagine using in normal play: I wouldn't deem it overpowered except for the extra feats from flaws, but everyone is using those. When her party's actually with her, rather than busy elsewhere while she gets asked to solo dragons, she uses the lesser rod of extend on buff spells rather than dire hawks, but she still preps summon spells, Mass Resist Energy and Mass Snake's Swiftness, and works on the general principle of "why would I want to hit things when I have allies to do it for me?" I wouldn't expect her to match up to the top builds on this thread: while I think she could defeat the first gauntlet handily, she'd use quite a few resources to do so.
All of my other characters (casters and otherwise except) except possibly my warchanter (who had 2 bard levels at L5 and thus would be disqualified) would have been smoked by 1-3 of the encounters when they were level 5 using actual builds played in real games. Of course none of them were allowed to be outsiders, the polymorph tree was banned when all but one arcane caster came online (and when it was, only MM forms were legal), tome of blood isn't allowed, flaws aren't allowed, animal companions come from the PHB lists and exalted feats are very rare in this campaign.
Most of my PCs would never have accepted a solo mission at L5 to take on a dragon, they would've thought it was a dumb idea ;) Oddly though, I think the one who would've done best in this gauntlet (given more open access to equipment than he had at the time) was the one who I considered least powerful in actual play at L5... he had consistent (and not limited by times/day) damage output, good fort and ref saves, and could crank his AC very high when needed. Give him a potion of fly, an anklet of translocation, a healing belt, a triple weapon capsule retainer and ghostblight + quicksilver, and he would probably get quite a long way. In real parties, though, he wasn't viewed as overpowered (I considered him weak for his level compared to my other PCs), because "consistent melee damage" was pretty much all he provided... he didn't end fights single-handedly before everyone else could act, he needed healing / restorative / protective magic from other PCs on a fairly regular basis (his will save was not good), and if he cranked his AC up it was at the expense of dealing damage - he might be able to kill the monster faster than it would kill him, but not necessarily faster than it would kill his party members. (He was working towards a prestige class at L6. Once he got that, I stopped worrying about his power level. He's now L11, and starting to get into the "overpowered" category for the campaign he plays in, although he still basically just provides large amounts of melee damage and some alertness/survival/mobility skills.)
Incoporeals can usually hear the party coming well enough to pop out in the right place, but a sneaky character might break contact that way...
"Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below)."
"Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see."
The wraith might just buzz around until he runs into the guy burrowing. But that's one of those weird edge mechanics like "if you accidently move into an invisible guy's space, do you bounce off?". The wraith has a pretty big edge in noticing the PC vs being noticed. They are inaudible, have no scent and blindsense fails. You have to see them and if you're noisey enough they can just go into a wall and you have zero chance to detect them barring detect evil or undead.
Regarding venomfire...if the acid is considered magic, then it should probably affect the undead. If not, then not. As an aside, what the heck ARE fleshrakers to get multiple poison attacks? I don't remember any real dinosaur that had any poison at all....
two scrolls of delay poison...300gp to not need lesser restoration etc is a good buy if you're gonna blow 2500gp on other consumables and it lasts 3 hours.
and put forth
sorc 3, ph2 meta spec
12 cha minimum
Human
Feats
Human : precocious apprentice : invis
Lvl1 : Fell drain
Lvl3 : easy meta : fell = +1 adjust
5 rays of frost vs touch ac that drain a lvl on hit. (6 if cha is 18)
equipment is not figured, i would not carry much, str is not your strong suit.
tactics
detect a threat, cast invis , run away.
otherwise,
invis,
surprise ray of fell frost.
rnd 1 ray of fell frost.
rnd 2 ray of things that were 3hd are dead.
of course, this dosnt work vs the prescribed encounters, but i think its over powered for its level.
it is precocious broken. and fell broken
weapon wielders fair the best as each level they loose is basicaly just a 1 bab loss as they are taking no real damage from the spells. cant let them close the 40ft between you...
casters are hurt a lot worse as they loose the spells they were going to use...
if you did throw the lvl 3 sorc against the set of encounters as described,
if
if you kill the manticore with fell's, your best bet is to come back in a week and see if it reanimated as a wight and took out all the others for you. because your not going to survive the others by your self..
but this is just ignorant me... feel free to descent.
Regarding venomfire...if the acid is considered magic, then it should probably affect the undead. If not, then not. As an aside, what the heck ARE fleshrakers to get multiple poison attacks? I don't remember any real dinosaur that had any poison at all....
Monster manual 3, they are specifically mentioned as an acceptable druid companion (with a minor modification)
edited to remove unnecessary quotage
Especially if stacked with druid buffs like righeous wrath of the faithful and venomfire, where multiple attacks are king.
The real Bela is a switch-hitter. If the party needs a tank, he armors up and is the tank. If they need light infantry, he's a mobile high damage light infantry guy. He is also a durable trapfinder. For this though, that kind of versatility really doesn't help, so I reworked the basic build into a heavy armor pre-occult slayer kinda guy, with wilderness skills and the ability to do basic mobility challenges (climb, swim, jump) in fullplate.
He can turtle up with expertise+tower shield, or go for the big fast damage with reckless rage and 2h weapons. The alchemicals and oil of magic stone are typical of any melee or archer type I play that throws weapons well, and the potion loadout is very typical of what my real LG melee characters carrry. The faith healing potions are a "solo" thing...enough to get him back to "Real" hitpoints if he ends a fight raging at negatives. The clw wand is standard issue for anyone in LG, you can't count on getting a cleric but you can often find a guy with a ranger or paladin level. I've been doing a lot of melees with silver, magic weapon, cold iron reach weapon and adamantine about by level 6 when they can afford it, so I went that way on this guy. The club is for DR blunt, or to be enchanted with shillelagh for extra damage.
The main trick with this build is that he can do both melee and ranged combat while turtled up, but it is slow, or he can do wads of damage in close fast, but at high risk to himself.
Here's the build. I now have to figure out the math stuff used in this challenge and see how he copes.
Bela, Level 5 Human Elite Array (statbump strength)
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 wis10 Cha 8
normal hp 43 saves F9 R3 W2 AC25 or 20
rage hp 58 saves F12 R3 W5 AC22 or 17
L1 Barbarian1 - extra rage, reckless rage
L1 Fighter1 - power attack
L2 Fighter2 - combat expertise, brutal throw
L4 Hexblade1 - Hexblade curse DC11
L5 Ranger1 - Tracking
Survival 12 (8 ranks)
Ride 10 (7 ranks, synergy)
Spellcraft 5 (4 ranks)
Handle Animal 4 (5 ranks)
Climb 5 (7 ranks, includes ACP-5)
Swim 0 (7 ranks, includes ACP-10)
Jump 0 (6 ranks, includes ACP-5, speed -4)
Wild Empathy 0
2395 Longsword+1 silvered and glows bright as torch
320 MW Cold Iron Lance
0 Oak Club
12 6 cold iron javelins
2650 fullplate+1
350 mw armor spikes
1180 tower shield+1
400 heavy warhorse
34 saddle, saddlebags, bit, bridle
8 cold weather clothing
15.5 Backpack, food, waterskin, pitons, rope, bedroll etc
5 5 sunrods
20.5 alch fire and 5 flask oil
150 6 flask holy water
60 6 flask acid
50 tanglefoot bag
750 wand clw
300 6 potions faith healing
100 oil bless weapon
50 oil shillelagh
50 oil magic stone
50 potion prot evil
50 potion enlarge person
9000 gp
edit - forgot the sunrods.
The CR2 dungeon was as expected, not a challenge:
Show
CR2 Dungeon
On the way there, while riding my horse, a blink dog attacks.
Blink dog gets surprise (blinks in, and I'm noisy)
Blink dog bites the horse +4 to hit vs AC12 flatfooted =75% doing 4 damage
blink dog 22, horse 26 Bela 43
Blink dog init +3 to +0 75%+55%=130%, loses init to Bela
Horse attacks because it was attacked +6 vs 16 on two hooves
and +1 vs 16 on bite, with 50% miss chance on all. I count that as
25%+25%+12% = 62%, one hit for weighted damage of 7
Bela automakes fight on horseback roll, 5' steps back and stabs with lance
+7 to hit but 50% miss chance for 23% =85% miss
blink dog bites, 185%, 3 damage to horse
blink dog 15, horse 23 Bela 43
Horse attacks, 147% miss. Bela attacks, 170% hits for 7
blink dog bites, 260% bites horse for 4
blink dog 8, horse 19 bela 43
Horse attacks, 232% miss. Bela attacks, 254% hits for 8
Blink dog bites, 315% and falls over because it was staggered
blink dog -1, horse 19, bela 43.
burn 3 charges on clw wand to heal horse to full
Find cave, dismount off horse and explore, encounter dire badger
Bela cracks sunrod and sticks it to poke out of his pack.
Badger knows Bela is there, because he's noisy and lit up.
Bela will see badger tracks (take 10 = 22) so will have sword out, shield up
Bela spot+0 vs dire badger hide +3 (take 10) fails (35%)
Badger gets surprise round and charges +6 vs flatfooted AC24 and misses (15%)
Badger +3 init vs bela +0 succeeds and wins init (80%)
Badger 3 attacks, all have 5% chance to hit, miss (95%)
Bela stabs badger +7 vs ac16, hits (95%) for 7 damage
Badger rages (badger 27hp, bela unwounded)
badger 3 attacks, claws 10%, bite 5%, miss (110%)
Bela expertises for 2, to match rage, same hit chance, hits(155%) for 8
badger 19hp, bela unhurt
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (125%)
bela continues same tactic, misses (215%)
Badger 3 attacks, all miss (140%)
Bela continues, hits (275%) for 7
badger 3 attacks, one finally hits,(155%) weighted damage 6
Bela continues, miss (335%)
badger 12, bela 37
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (170%)
Bela continues, hits (395%) for 8
badger 4, bela 37
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (185%)
Bela continues, hits (455%) for 7, badger dies
Bela burns 2 charges off CLW wand to heal to full
Choker drops on Bela by surprise.
No contest, they're sneakier than he's capable of spotting, gets surprise
attack vs flatfooted AC from above, +7 vs AC24 (20%) miss
choker wins init (no contest, +6 vs +0)
2 attack vs flatfooted AC +6 vs AC24 (45%) miss
Bela rages vs thegrapplemonster, stabs for +10 vs ac17 (70%) hits for 10 damage
choker 6hp bela 58
choker 2 attack +6 vs AC22 (95%) one hit, 5 damage
grapple check +5 vs bela+11 fail (120%)
bela stabs it for +10 vs 17 (140%) misses
choker 6hp bela 53
choker 2 attack +6 vs AC22 (170%) one hit, 5 damage
grapple check +5 vs bela+11 fail (190%)
bela stabs it for +10 vs 17 (210%) hits, does 11, kills choker
burns 2 charges of CLW wand. Enters next fight down 1hp
Medium animated rug attacks bela
again, I'll assume surprise. He's not likely to notice
Animated object +2 vs ac24 fail 5%
animate object wins init 55% (both init+0)
Animated object +2 vs ac24 fail 60%
bela vs rug, sword +7 vs ac14 hits for 7 damage (70%)
rug 24, bela 42
animated object +2 vs Ac25 fail 65%
Bela no longer respects rug and slings tower shield
bela vs rug, sword +9 vs ac14 hits for 8 damage (150%)
rug 16 bela 42
rug +2 vs AC20 fail 75%
Bela 2h power attacks for 5 +5 vs AC14 misses (210%)
rug +2 vs ac20 fail 95$
Bela 2h power attacks for 5 +5 vs AC14 hits for 17 (260%)rug killed
bela reslings shield and continues on.
Finally the dragon is there in plain view. No surprise
Wyrmling init +0 vs Bela+0 wins 50%
Wymling breathes on Bela. Bela saves (+3 vs 12, 60%) and takes 2
Wyrmling flies to ceiling.
Bela rages, drops sword, draws and throws javelin +9 vs ac14 and misses (140%)
wyrmling goes full defensive and takes cover
Bela unslings tower shield and javelin
Wymling breathes on Bela. Bela saves (+3 vs 12, 200%) and takes 1
Bela throws javelin +11 vs AC18 hits (270%) for 9, draws javelin
dragon 13, bela 54
dragon charges bela +7 vs Ac17 miss 105%
bela steps back, throws javelin (hits 360 for 10) equips tower shield
dragon 3, bela 54
dragon full attacks +5/3/3 vs AC22 miss (145%)
bela unequps tower shield, stabs with armor spikes (12 vs 14 hits 450 for 9, dragon dies
bela burns 1 charge of clw wand
resources used 8 clw charges (120gp) , one sunrod and 2 rages
On the way there, while riding my horse, a blink dog attacks.
Blink dog gets surprise (blinks in, and I'm noisy)
Blink dog bites the horse +4 to hit vs AC12 flatfooted =75% doing 4 damage
blink dog 22, horse 26 Bela 43
Blink dog init +3 to +0 75%+55%=130%, loses init to Bela
Horse attacks because it was attacked +6 vs 16 on two hooves
and +1 vs 16 on bite, with 50% miss chance on all. I count that as
25%+25%+12% = 62%, one hit for weighted damage of 7
Bela automakes fight on horseback roll, 5' steps back and stabs with lance
+7 to hit but 50% miss chance for 23% =85% miss
blink dog bites, 185%, 3 damage to horse
blink dog 15, horse 23 Bela 43
Horse attacks, 147% miss. Bela attacks, 170% hits for 7
blink dog bites, 260% bites horse for 4
blink dog 8, horse 19 bela 43
Horse attacks, 232% miss. Bela attacks, 254% hits for 8
Blink dog bites, 315% and falls over because it was staggered
blink dog -1, horse 19, bela 43.
burn 3 charges on clw wand to heal horse to full
Find cave, dismount off horse and explore, encounter dire badger
Bela cracks sunrod and sticks it to poke out of his pack.
Badger knows Bela is there, because he's noisy and lit up.
Bela will see badger tracks (take 10 = 22) so will have sword out, shield up
Bela spot+0 vs dire badger hide +3 (take 10) fails (35%)
Badger gets surprise round and charges +6 vs flatfooted AC24 and misses (15%)
Badger +3 init vs bela +0 succeeds and wins init (80%)
Badger 3 attacks, all have 5% chance to hit, miss (95%)
Bela stabs badger +7 vs ac16, hits (95%) for 7 damage
Badger rages (badger 27hp, bela unwounded)
badger 3 attacks, claws 10%, bite 5%, miss (110%)
Bela expertises for 2, to match rage, same hit chance, hits(155%) for 8
badger 19hp, bela unhurt
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (125%)
bela continues same tactic, misses (215%)
Badger 3 attacks, all miss (140%)
Bela continues, hits (275%) for 7
badger 3 attacks, one finally hits,(155%) weighted damage 6
Bela continues, miss (335%)
badger 12, bela 37
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (170%)
Bela continues, hits (395%) for 8
badger 4, bela 37
badger 3 attacks, all 5% to hit, miss (185%)
Bela continues, hits (455%) for 7, badger dies
Bela burns 2 charges off CLW wand to heal to full
Choker drops on Bela by surprise.
No contest, they're sneakier than he's capable of spotting, gets surprise
attack vs flatfooted AC from above, +7 vs AC24 (20%) miss
choker wins init (no contest, +6 vs +0)
2 attack vs flatfooted AC +6 vs AC24 (45%) miss
Bela rages vs thegrapplemonster, stabs for +10 vs ac17 (70%) hits for 10 damage
choker 6hp bela 58
choker 2 attack +6 vs AC22 (95%) one hit, 5 damage
grapple check +5 vs bela+11 fail (120%)
bela stabs it for +10 vs 17 (140%) misses
choker 6hp bela 53
choker 2 attack +6 vs AC22 (170%) one hit, 5 damage
grapple check +5 vs bela+11 fail (190%)
bela stabs it for +10 vs 17 (210%) hits, does 11, kills choker
burns 2 charges of CLW wand. Enters next fight down 1hp
Medium animated rug attacks bela
again, I'll assume surprise. He's not likely to notice
Animated object +2 vs ac24 fail 5%
animate object wins init 55% (both init+0)
Animated object +2 vs ac24 fail 60%
bela vs rug, sword +7 vs ac14 hits for 7 damage (70%)
rug 24, bela 42
animated object +2 vs Ac25 fail 65%
Bela no longer respects rug and slings tower shield
bela vs rug, sword +9 vs ac14 hits for 8 damage (150%)
rug 16 bela 42
rug +2 vs AC20 fail 75%
Bela 2h power attacks for 5 +5 vs AC14 misses (210%)
rug +2 vs ac20 fail 95$
Bela 2h power attacks for 5 +5 vs AC14 hits for 17 (260%)rug killed
bela reslings shield and continues on.
Finally the dragon is there in plain view. No surprise
Wyrmling init +0 vs Bela+0 wins 50%
Wymling breathes on Bela. Bela saves (+3 vs 12, 60%) and takes 2
Wyrmling flies to ceiling.
Bela rages, drops sword, draws and throws javelin +9 vs ac14 and misses (140%)
wyrmling goes full defensive and takes cover
Bela unslings tower shield and javelin
Wymling breathes on Bela. Bela saves (+3 vs 12, 200%) and takes 1
Bela throws javelin +11 vs AC18 hits (270%) for 9, draws javelin
dragon 13, bela 54
dragon charges bela +7 vs Ac17 miss 105%
bela steps back, throws javelin (hits 360 for 10) equips tower shield
dragon 3, bela 54
dragon full attacks +5/3/3 vs AC22 miss (145%)
bela unequps tower shield, stabs with armor spikes (12 vs 14 hits 450 for 9, dragon dies
bela burns 1 charge of clw wand
resources used 8 clw charges (120gp) , one sunrod and 2 rages
tactics:
am using a 2 guard dogs to scout with... they are walking on the ground ....... i am following behind them flying
VS Manticore(57hp) .... attacked at range which ends my invisiblity, ..have already dispatched the manticore outside(2 rounds:1 Fire Orb, and 1 Scorching Ray)
VS Choker(13hp) ................ it cant hit me... it dies in one round(1x MM)
VS RUG(31hp) .................... Rug ..... cant attack me... as i am flying out of reach..... it might attack the dogs.... but they are already trained to retreat if possible.. it dies in one round(1 scorching ray)
VS Wraith(32hp)................. it will have a hard time hitting me...:
AC 19 vs Incorporeal Touch(base 10 -1 size+4 Armor(mage Armor)+4 Deflection +2 Sacred)
it has +5 attack....so it only has 30% chance to hit then has 20% miss chance also on top of that due to Blur......... it only gets 2 attacks no matter what... it dies in 2 rounds(2xMM)
the dogs actually alert me to its presence due to thier unwillingness to approach... they are still trained to retreat
VS Snake(63hp) ................. Am flying.... so am out of reach for snake to grapple.... it dies in 2 rounds 2xScorching Ray
VS Black Dragon(85hp) ........ Black Dragon dies quickly... it cant hit me... 4 rounds of Fire Orbs
VS Bugbear(16hp) and Griffon(59hp) .... i attack at range which ends my invisibility ,Acid Arrow @ Griffon first, then MM Bugbear, then Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow for Griffon..... neither can even hit me
VS Shocker Lizards(13hp each) ..... am flying out of thier range..... they die 1 round each 3xMM, or 2 rounds(1 MM and 1 scorching ray)
VS Cloaker(45hp) ............... it dies quick.. it cant hit me but i can hit it 1 Combust or 3x MM(1 or 3 rounds)
VS Hydra(55hp) ................. 3 rounds to die... Acid Arrow gives continuous damage to deal with Fast healing 15 and 2x Scorching Ray take it out
vs Trap..... am Flying ..... so i bypass it, find it with Guard Dogs ..... all are teathered to prevent Falls
im assuming i lose initiative for all encounters
also i can cast while grappled(my concentration checks wouldnt be to bad)... if i ever am grappled... the dogs are trained to attack grappling foe immediately
Combust works great for grappling foes(45 damage no save)
if any dog dies... will cut teather to other dog(just in case someone asks)
:D
Lets call this "Worst case scenario man" I think I removed everything Meyer could think to object to (no matter if I agree or not). Go ahead and run the numbers.
Basic tactics are the same. If either charecter gets hurt Druid will use crusader strike and martial spirit for healing. If that isn't enough after a fight they eat goodberries until they are fully healed (8 max each). Remember they can back off and use reach to punish anyone with a 5' reach and they love to get a charge off to trip and pin opponents.
I say it passes with ease, anyone want to bet a cookie?
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Martial Study (Crusaders strike)
(human) Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
How does a level 1 character (initiator level 1/2 = 0) have martial study/stance?
Edit: The sblock and /sblock (in square brackets [] ) also make things easier to parse.
These are a bit metagamey to me. Together they cost about as much as getting polymorph any object cast on the commoner. It isn't something a typical character does when entering a cave....it could well be more cash than the dragon's likely to have on hand. The animal growth alone casts 1125gp. I didn't start packing consumables that costly on any character in a real game until level 12ish. 700gp stuff, more like level 8 and only one (like a fly potion for a fighter). Granted solo chars would carry more contingency stuff, but usually you wait for the contingency to actually come up before burning something that expensive. The fact that you have 2 of each more than compensates for spell failure chance.
What if the cave turns out to be empty? You're out 2000gp.
Adventure premise is that we know that the dragon is in there as well as the color of the dragon, so asking what happens if it is empty is meaningless. Using 2000 gp in items for the win, is actually more than the PAO rogue used, which might or might not be meaningful. But it is legal per wealth per level chart, as well as not unreasonable at a item cost/level standpoint either.
Note also that any scrolls of lesser restoration, etc need the druid to unwildshape to his much less impressive humanoid form. Now the animal companion may carry the day, but if he does that and then runs into something like the wraith...
this is something my own barb1/druidx pounce/wildshape build struggles with on a regular basis.
Basically, for the level 5 druid (1 wildshape per day) he pre-casts spells, then, while in wildshape form, performs as a noncaster.
Level 6, druids are able to perform as a caster in their alternate form.
I could build my trapfinding tank with a rogue level and UMD all these scrolls too. But I'd feel dirty
Feel free to post a build like that. If noncasters can duplicate caster tactics cheaply, then the spells used are overpowered not the chasis. If noncasters cannot duplicate caster tactics cheaply (explosive runes for instance) then it is the caster chasis that wins, not the spell.
sorc 3, ph2 meta spec
12 cha minimum
Human
Feats
Human : precocious apprentice : invis
Lvl1 : Fell drain
Lvl3 : easy meta : fell = +1 adjust
5 rays of frost vs touch ac that drain a lvl on hit. (6 if cha is 18)
equipment is not figured, i would not carry much, str is not your strong suit.
tactics
detect a threat, cast invis , run away.
otherwise,
invis,
surprise ray of fell frost.
rnd 1 ray of fell frost.
rnd 2 ray of things that were 3hd are dead.
of course, this dosnt work vs the prescribed encounters, but i think its over powered for its level.
Make a level 5 version of this then.
Issues I see with the build, you need to not be surprised (ok)
You need to win initiative (not easy, my build has a +8) (not easy)
You need to be within 35 or so feet (short range, level 3)
You need to make your precocious apprentice check to cast invis.
Ok, here's my best stab at a Living Greyhawk legal character, based on my real L5 character Bela, but with beguiler stuff stripped out.
Nice use of hexblade: It is not a caster
Excellant use of tanglefoot bags: I had not thought of using them + 5' to prevent a full attack.
When you entangle the manticore:
Why doesn't it spend a couple rounds scraping it off before continuing the fight? It should be somewhat ok in the air? or would your javelins be worse for it?
have corrected the Build.... didnt see that Scintilating Scales was Personal Range spell....replaced with Shield of Faith+4 and Added Potion of Blur(replaces extra potion of Protection from Energy)
Your character shows the shield of faiths to be +2, not +4.
You are using the wrong rug (lower cr one). However, per your posted tactics (dogs set off traps and retreat), it might / might not kill one ... which does not affect the outcome here.
Your character shows the shield of faiths to be +2, not +4.
You are using the wrong rug (lower cr one). However, per your posted tactics (dogs set off traps and retreat), it might / might not kill one ... which does not affect the outcome here.
no ... i do have 2 Shield of Faith potions... one @+4 and one @+2... the +2 is backup... what he would include for normal adventures.
im not sure which rugs to use.... maybe you could post a corrected version of the encounters ... since you are not the originator of them ..there should be no problem.. at least give the HP,AC,Saves,etc.. for each creature used... or just post the creatures with HD listed, and i will post the stats
:D
no ... i do have 2 Shield of Faith potions... one @+4 and one @+2... the +2 is backup... what he would include for normal adventures.
im not sure which rugs to use.... maybe you could post a corrected version of the encounters ... since you are not the originator of them ..there should be no problem.. at least give the HP,AC,Saves,etc.. for each creature used... or just post the creatures with HD listed, and i will post the stats
:D
If you look at the first post, you will see the links to the encounters. Btw, no need to worry about it, your build already passed ...
Basically, for the level 5 druid (1 wildshape per day) he pre-casts spells, then, while in wildshape form, performs as a noncaster.
Level 6, druids are able to perform as a caster in their alternate form.
You can't precast lesser restoration "etc". Remedy spells on scrolls are not available after wildshaping without losing the wildshape, even with natural spell. Although at L6 he has 2 wilshapes, so he could do it once.
lose 3 constitution. Natual "1"s played a part on both sides.
Show
Wraith - ok it surprises me again. I'm noisy enough for
it to hide in a wall and still pinpoint me. It' 5' steps out
and attacks +5 vs touch 10 hits (80%) for 2 damage
Bela makes save +9 vs dc14 (80%)
Wraith win init +7 vs +0 (170%), hits (250%) for 3 dmg
Bela makes save (160%)
Bela rages, slings tower shield, draws magic stone 5' back
and throw +12 vs 15 with 50% immunity miss (205%)
wraith 32, Bela 58 con20
wraith misses (+5 vs touch 7 345%)
5' throw stone with immunity hit (250%) dmg 21
wraith11 bela 58/con20
wraith hits (440%) dmg 2
bela misses save (+12 vs 14, 345%) loses 3 con
5' throw stone with immunity hit (440%) dmg 21
wraith dead. Bela uses 2 clw charges. Max hp now 33
Wraith - ok it surprises me again. I'm noisy enough for
it to hide in a wall and still pinpoint me. It' 5' steps out
and attacks +5 vs touch 10 hits (80%) for 2 damage
Bela makes save +9 vs dc14 (80%)
Wraith win init +7 vs +0 (170%), hits (250%) for 3 dmg
Bela makes save (160%)
Bela rages, slings tower shield, draws magic stone 5' back
and throw +12 vs 15 with 50% immunity miss (205%)
wraith 32, Bela 58 con20
wraith misses (+5 vs touch 7 345%)
5' throw stone with immunity hit (250%) dmg 21
wraith11 bela 58/con20
wraith hits (440%) dmg 2
bela misses save (+12 vs 14, 345%) loses 3 con
5' throw stone with immunity hit (440%) dmg 21
wraith dead. Bela uses 2 clw charges. Max hp now 33
Nice use of hexblade: It is not a caster
Excellant use of tanglefoot bags: I had not thought of using them + 5' to prevent a full attack.
When you entangle the manticore:
Why doesn't it spend a couple rounds scraping it off before continuing the fight? It should be somewhat ok in the air? or would your javelins be worse for it?
With fly poor, it has to land or crash (or fly but not attack me or the bag). Flying, I could follow it around on the horse and throw splash weapons or javelins at it. On the ground, I put pressure on it with the charge and decided it would try to kill me and it darn near worked. It was always threatened and could not 5' step so removintg the bag would essentially give me free attacks with no counterattack (and how was it to know I was out of the bags? It is int 7, not exactly a rocket scientist. It showed some cunning, going for the horse when I proved too hard to hit and showed a mobility advantage, but in the end, its tactics are to spike and close)
Well, a second chance. The rug by using grapple put some nonlethal on him s there is a good chance the dragon got to eat him anyway, when it went over to the rug to check if it had trapped any snacks.
Show
Rug….once again surprised *sigh*
it attacks and misses +9 vs ac24 (30%)
wins initiative -1 vs +0 (75%)
touch attack for grapple +9 vs 10 hits (170%)
grapple check +19 vs +8 wins (265%)
d4+7 nonlethal, 2d6+10 lethal constrict
bela attacks with armor spikes hit +7-4=3 vs 13 for 6
rug 77 Bela 16 and 10 nonlethal
next round rug grapples/constricts
Bela is Unconscious. Dragon presumably strips
him of equipment and questions him. Bela offers
to be his servant and hunt for him because he's a
craven weasel
Alternate ending….Bela, con drained and out ofrage,
goes hunting (track and survival 22 with take 10)
knocking them out. He also butchers and eats the
snake. He ties one of the trapped animals onto his
lance and goes forward, figuring more wraiths or
animalswill eat it first and give him a chance to react.
Therug snatches it (and his lance). He goes back for
anotheranimals, but this time attaches opened vials of
acid andalch fire and oil to it with his rope/torn up
saddlebags etc.he wakes up the animal just out of
reach of where therug snatches, using clw wand and
scares it. It runsinto the rug, gets snatched, rug takes
6d6 acid and6d6 fire first round, 6d6 more second
round for 63 damage.While it's eating the animal, bela
throws a javelin at itwith shield slung (+8 vs 13 hit
(80%) for 7 more andmoves back until the rug stops
chasing and returns to the room He brings in more
animals, each time getting another javelin shot. It runs
out of hp before he runs out of animals and javelins.
(he can always go trap more animals). When the fight
is over, he retrieves most of his javelins but the lance
and the first javelin he threw were destroyed by the fire
and acid.
We can pretend all this happened to see how badly the
dragon mauls his rageless, con drained self.
Rug….once again surprised *sigh*
it attacks and misses +9 vs ac24 (30%)
wins initiative -1 vs +0 (75%)
touch attack for grapple +9 vs 10 hits (170%)
grapple check +19 vs +8 wins (265%)
d4+7 nonlethal, 2d6+10 lethal constrict
bela attacks with armor spikes hit +7-4=3 vs 13 for 6
rug 77 Bela 16 and 10 nonlethal
next round rug grapples/constricts
Bela is Unconscious. Dragon presumably strips
him of equipment and questions him. Bela offers
to be his servant and hunt for him because he's a
craven weasel
Alternate ending….Bela, con drained and out ofrage,
goes hunting (track and survival 22 with take 10)
knocking them out. He also butchers and eats the
snake. He ties one of the trapped animals onto his
lance and goes forward, figuring more wraiths or
animalswill eat it first and give him a chance to react.
Therug snatches it (and his lance). He goes back for
anotheranimals, but this time attaches opened vials of
acid andalch fire and oil to it with his rope/torn up
saddlebags etc.he wakes up the animal just out of
reach of where therug snatches, using clw wand and
scares it. It runsinto the rug, gets snatched, rug takes
6d6 acid and6d6 fire first round, 6d6 more second
round for 63 damage.While it's eating the animal, bela
throws a javelin at itwith shield slung (+8 vs 13 hit
(80%) for 7 more andmoves back until the rug stops
chasing and returns to the room He brings in more
animals, each time getting another javelin shot. It runs
out of hp before he runs out of animals and javelins.
(he can always go trap more animals). When the fight
is over, he retrieves most of his javelins but the lance
and the first javelin he threw were destroyed by the fire
and acid.
We can pretend all this happened to see how badly the
dragon mauls his rageless, con drained self.
The sweet spot for armor class in this challenge is about 33, with touch AC of ~19. Those minimize the harm the dragon, manticore and wraith can do while reducing the snake and rug to hitting on 20s. You can just about get there with normal fighter gear, expertise and defensive, but your offense isn't enough to get through the big hp of the snake, rug and dragon.
Vs the rug, you could alternately have a reach weapon and combat reflexes and tough it out...breaking the rug touch attacks with aoo's and just sucking up the slam damage that it alternately does, while you whale away with power attack.
Bela could get there with consumables that would last the entire challenge (barkskin+2, shield of faith+4, mage armor to help incorporeal touch and of course prot acid10) probably by ditching his magic weapon and bringing in more magic stones and oil of shillelagh. He probably needs more tanglefoot bags too. It's possible to retool him for this challenge. But it was more fun to just try him out with his normal "adventuring" gear and see how far he got. The idea of him going out to trap bunnies to use as bait after the wraith encounter is actually pretty incharacter for him as is feeding his horse to the snake and begging for his life with the dragon. He's not actually a very nice person.
The AC thing is a good point, it looks like since there are no spells to worry about (magic missile, dispel magic, etc) that AC/Hps are the only things to worry about. Feel free to retool your character based on hunting dragons ... you know that is the goal.
From merriam-webster online:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venom
Main Entry: 1ven·om
Pronunciation: \ˈve-nəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English venim, from Anglo-French, from Vulgar Latin *venimen, alteration of Latin venenum magic charm, drug, poison; akin to Latin venus love, charm — more at win
Date: 13th century
1: poisonous matter normally secreted by some animals (as snakes, scorpions, or bees) and transmitted to prey or an enemy chiefly by biting or stinging; broadly : material that is poisonous
Per this:
Venom is material that is poisonous, not material that contains poison.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/poisonous
Main Entry: poi·son·ous
Pronunciation: \ˈpȯiz-nəs, ˈpȯi-zən-əs\
Function: adjective
Date: 1565
1 : destructive, harmful
2 : having the properties or effects of poison : venomous
3 : spiteful, malicious
— poi·son·ous·ly adverb
Venom and poison are synonyms.
Biologically speaking, venom and poison are not the same. They are similar. A venom is naturally produced (e.g. cobra venom). A poison is not naturally produced (e.g. poison dart frog).
In DnD terms, I think they are pretty much interchangeable. I also would like to throw in my vote for Venomfire being stopped if the creature is immune to poison. The reason is because if the poison has no effect, then there should be no secondary effect either. This seems to be a standard ruling in DnD. I can see either ruling, but if I were DMing, I would rule this way.
Any Class 5 works out the money to hire 10 of commoner 1's to throw these items in time of battle. (2.5+1) x 10 = 35 hit points per round.
This tactic would smoke the manticore, the snake, the shadow, and the rug. The dragon is iffy due to the breath weapon.
This little though experiment demonstrates the power of additional actions brought on by leadership/followers/animal companions/etc.
I expect any build able to bring additional actions via any method to be superior to a single-character build because additional action are just THAT valuable.
Ok, that was paraphrased a little [or a lot], but the harsh light of truth is like that sometimes.
So, as of right now I'll go with the following questions. I want them to be fair and impartial, so I'm looking for feedback on changing the wording from both sides of the questions.
1 (Tome of Battle): A character is in the stance 'Punishing Stance'. That same character activates Fire Riposte when a monster hits him. Does the Fire Riposte damage also include the +1d6 from Punishing Stance?
2 (Prone): A character standing on the ground retrieves and drinks a potion of fly, then drops prone, completing his action for that round.
2A: Does he receive the bonuses and penalties from being prone (AC and attack, respectively)?
2B: Next round, he flies toward a monster that is airborne. Does he first have to stand from prone to do so, or are the penalties still applicable?
3 (Skill Trick): If the character has the Skill Trick 'Up the Hill', can he charge upward while flying, or does that only apply to ground-based movement?
4 (Venomfire): Does a creature immune to poison take the acid damage from venomfire?
5 (Armor/Barding): Is barding the same as special armor for non-standard creatures regarding the amount of time it takes to don/remove the armor?
6 (Unnatural Aura): When an animal is affected by Unnatural Aura (Wraith, etc.), does the animal panic for its entire turn, or only until it leaves the area of Unnatural Aura? Can it stop at the edge of the unnatural aura, thereby remaining 30 ft. (wraith) from the threat?
7 (Command Activation Item): An animal companion is outfitted with a command activation magic item.
7A: Do animals have a language (as several sources seem to indicate; speak with animals spell, familiar ability 'speak with animals of its kind')?
7B: If 'YES', can that language be used to activate command word activation magic items?
8: Can a Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?
-=-=-=-=-=
For the record, I'd say the following answers apply:
1: No. The counter specifically says it only deals 4d6 fire damage.
2: A character is prone until taking the time and action (usually a move action) to "stand upright". Until that happens, he takes the prone penalties as normal.
3: It works no matter if a character is flying or not.
4: Venomfire adds 1d6 acid damage to the poison. The poison is still delivered, thus the acid is delivered. Then, the poison effect is ignored, but the acid is not. This is similar to a creature with Damage Reduction that eliminates all the weapon damage, but allows elemental (or other extra damage) to take effect.
5: The time to apply barding is for the rider (typically a humanoid) to apply the barding to a mount. Special Armor uses the donning/removing armor rules.
6: The animal doesn't enter the space willingly. If the wraith forces the animal into the aura, the animal panics for its turn, meaning it runs away (4x movement usually) for its turn.
7A: Animals do not have a language of their own.
7B: They cannot activate command word magic items.
8: No, it cannot.
So, as of right now I'll go with the following questions. I want them to be fair and impartial, so I'm looking for feedback on changing the wording from both sides of the questions.
4 (Venomfire): Does a creature immune to poison take the acid damage from venomfire?
I would prefer:
What is the interaction between venomfire and a creature immune to poison?
The way the question was phrased might stress the acid damage too much, which is the entire contention. I do not think this phrasing puts any emphasis on where the damage comes from.
(In my mind, it is similar to a +1 silver longsword. A creature immune to magical weapons would be immune. A creature immune to silver is immune. A creature immune to slashing is immune).
5 (Armor/Barding): Is barding the same as special armor for non-standard creatures regarding the amount of time it takes to don/remove the armor?
This was never a question that needed answering. A fleshraker does not wear non-standard armor.
8: Can a Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?
8A: If 'YES', how would the cost be determined?
This was never a question that needed answering. A fleshraker does not wear non-standard armor.
How can you be so sure? What does a centaur wear? I think fleshrakers are based on "velociraptors", which are in ways more humanoid than a centaur is. They stand upright (but stooped) on their back legs, and have forelimbs that are basically used as arms.
So...Bela comes out of Barrow of the Forgotton King with a bit over 4000gp burning a hole in his pocket. Instead of upgrading his armor and weapons instead gets the idea of soloing a dragon's lair and blows all the cash on consumables for that run. By not enchanting his armor and not upgrading his mundane tower shield to masterwork/+1, he gains 2135gp. (loses 15gp by not selling back tower shield)
He spends this on:
1200 potion barkskin+5
900 potion shield of faith+5
with 35gp left over - AC is now 33, not 25 touch AC 16 vs 11
By just silvering his old nonmasterwork silver sword, he saves 2307.5gp and so his cash reserve is now 2343. He can ask the druid (barkskin+5) for some special CL6 potions and has enough cash left over for some anti dragon and poison stuff
This is no more strange than getting luminous armor scrolls etc
1200 2 potions of bull strength, CL6
600 2 potions of shillelagh, CL6
300 potion of resist energy acid (10)
50 potion of resist fear (in case it has an aura, duration 10 min)
50 potion of mage armor (just in case)
50 antitoxin (just in case)
50 extra oil of magic stone (the dragon might be flying a lot
50 extra tanglefoot bag
2350 Bela sells one of his holy water vials to make up the difference in cost and buys 5 extra sunrods
Show
Manticore encounter - we'll leave that the same. He'd have the barkskin running, and maybe prot energy
mage armor and antitoxin but none of the rest of the stuff as he approaches 180' away. So his AC is
slightly higher (27 vs 25) but not enough to make a real difference in the outcome. We'll assume same
rage burned, potion/wand charges and horse badly wounded.
Then Bela drinks all those potions and applies all those oils. His AC is 33, touch 16, incorporeal touch 20. His attack mod is +9 and does 2d6+6 per hit when not raging and using tower shield, which just slightly better than what he did while raging before with power attack 1 in same circumstances. He's not really the same character at all.
Snake
No surprise, Snake gets init (+3 vs +0 - 70%)
snake bites and misses (+13 vs 32 - 80%)
bela attacks and hits (+9 vs 15 - 75%) for 13
snake 50 Bela 43
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 85%)
bela attacks and hits (+9 vs 15 - 150%) for 13
snake 37 Bela 43
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 90%)
bela misses (+9 vs 15 - 225%)
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 95%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 300%) for 13
snake 24 Bela 43
Snake misses (+14 vs 33 - 100%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 375%) for 13
snake 8 Bela 43
Snake misses (+14 vs 33 - 105%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 375%) for 13
snake -5 Bela 43
no resources burned
Wraith
Wraith gets surprise and misses (+5 vs 19 35%)
wraith gets init (+7 vs +0 115%)
wraith attacks and hits (150%) doing 2 damage
bela makes fort save (+9 vs 14 - 70%)
wraith 32 bela 41
bela 5' steps, unslings shield, throws magic stone defensively
+7 vs AC15/50% immune, miss (100%)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 170%)
bela throws another stone defensively miss (130%)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 190%)
bela throws another stone defensively hit (160%) for 26 damage
wraith 6 bela 41
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 210%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (190)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 230%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (220)
wraith attacks and hits (+5 vs ac22 - 250%) for 3
bela makes save (290%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (330)
wraith attacks and hits (+5 vs ac22 - 270%) for 3
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive hit (360) for 15, wraith dies
Bela burns 2 charges of clw wand and oils up more magic stones
Rug
I'm assuming it alternates slam and touch attacks.
Rug gets surprise and misses (+9 vs 32, 5%)
rug gets init (-1 vs +0) (50%)
rug misses with touch attack (+9 vs 15 120%)
bela 5' step in reach, rages, attacks (+12 vs ac13, hits 95%) for 16
rug 68 bela 58
rug misses with slam (+9 vs 30 125%)
bela attacks and hits (190%) for 16
rug 52 bela 58
rug attempts touch, Bela AOO hits (285%) for 16 spoiling attack
bela attacks and hits (380%) for 16
rug 36 bela 58
rug misses with slam (130%)
bela attacks and hits (475%) for 16
rug 20 bela 58
rug attempts touch, Bela AOO hits (470%) for 16 spoiling attack
bela attacks and hits (565%) for 16 rug dies
resources burned - 1 rage
Dragon
I'll use the same tactics that killed Bela last time, although Bela
has a plan for if it ducks into water (enlarge, jump in and grapple)
Dragon gets init (55%), breathes for 15 and moves in to full attack range
Bela fails save (+3 vs 17 = 35%) and takes 5 damage
Bela hexblade curses the dragon, which fails (+7 vs 11 140%)
dragon is at -2 to attacks, saves, damage for an hour
bela draws TF bag, provoking AOO (dragon +10 vs 32 145%
Bela throws tf bag at dragon (+9 vs 10 130%),
dragon makes save and is just entangled (+3 vs 15 185%)
dragon 85ent5 Bela 38
dragon tries a full atatck, and misses (5 attacks, 5% chance, 210%)
bela rages, attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 210%) for 16
dragon breathes for 15, Bela fails save again (+3 vs 17 = 245%) takes 5 more
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 325%) for 16 and 5' steps back
dragon 53ent3 Bela 48
dragon removes the tanglefoot bag with full attack (automatic, it does enough)
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 405%) for 16
dragon 37 Bela 48
dragon tries full attack when not entangled and is at 10% for bite, 5% for rest, misses (240%)
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac19 365%) for 16
dragon 21 Bela 48
dragon withdraws, waiting for breath weapon to come back
bela unslings shield and throws magic stone +14 vs AC19 (445%) and misses
dragon 21 bela 48
Dragon breaths on Bela and he passes, taking no damage (480%).
bela unslings shield and throws magic stone +14 vs AC19 (560%)
dragon 9, bela 48
dragon dives into the pool hoping to get the advantage underwater
Bela dives in, attacking with armor spikes and holding his breath
bela +14 vs AC19 640% and misses
dragon full attacks shieldless bela +10 and 4x+8 vs AC26 hits once (325%)
weighted damage including curse is 3 points
bela +14 vs AC19 720% hits for 11
dragon -2, bela 45. Bela burns three clw charges to heal, plus more for his horse.
Manticore encounter - we'll leave that the same. He'd have the barkskin running, and maybe prot energy
mage armor and antitoxin but none of the rest of the stuff as he approaches 180' away. So his AC is
slightly higher (27 vs 25) but not enough to make a real difference in the outcome. We'll assume same
rage burned, potion/wand charges and horse badly wounded.
Then Bela drinks all those potions and applies all those oils. His AC is 33, touch 16, incorporeal touch 20. His attack mod is +9 and does 2d6+6 per hit when not raging and using tower shield, which just slightly better than what he did while raging before with power attack 1 in same circumstances. He's not really the same character at all.
Snake
No surprise, Snake gets init (+3 vs +0 - 70%)
snake bites and misses (+13 vs 32 - 80%)
bela attacks and hits (+9 vs 15 - 75%) for 13
snake 50 Bela 43
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 85%)
bela attacks and hits (+9 vs 15 - 150%) for 13
snake 37 Bela 43
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 90%)
bela misses (+9 vs 15 - 225%)
Snake misses (+13 vs 33 - 95%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 300%) for 13
snake 24 Bela 43
Snake misses (+14 vs 33 - 100%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 375%) for 13
snake 8 Bela 43
Snake misses (+14 vs 33 - 105%)
bela hits (+9 vs 15 - 375%) for 13
snake -5 Bela 43
no resources burned
Wraith
Wraith gets surprise and misses (+5 vs 19 35%)
wraith gets init (+7 vs +0 115%)
wraith attacks and hits (150%) doing 2 damage
bela makes fort save (+9 vs 14 - 70%)
wraith 32 bela 41
bela 5' steps, unslings shield, throws magic stone defensively
+7 vs AC15/50% immune, miss (100%)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 170%)
bela throws another stone defensively miss (130%)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 190%)
bela throws another stone defensively hit (160%) for 26 damage
wraith 6 bela 41
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 210%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (190)
wraith attacks and misses (+5 vs ac22 - 230%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (220)
wraith attacks and hits (+5 vs ac22 - 250%) for 3
bela makes save (290%)
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive miss (330)
wraith attacks and hits (+5 vs ac22 - 270%) for 3
bela draws shillelagh and swings defensive hit (360) for 15, wraith dies
Bela burns 2 charges of clw wand and oils up more magic stones
Rug
I'm assuming it alternates slam and touch attacks.
Rug gets surprise and misses (+9 vs 32, 5%)
rug gets init (-1 vs +0) (50%)
rug misses with touch attack (+9 vs 15 120%)
bela 5' step in reach, rages, attacks (+12 vs ac13, hits 95%) for 16
rug 68 bela 58
rug misses with slam (+9 vs 30 125%)
bela attacks and hits (190%) for 16
rug 52 bela 58
rug attempts touch, Bela AOO hits (285%) for 16 spoiling attack
bela attacks and hits (380%) for 16
rug 36 bela 58
rug misses with slam (130%)
bela attacks and hits (475%) for 16
rug 20 bela 58
rug attempts touch, Bela AOO hits (470%) for 16 spoiling attack
bela attacks and hits (565%) for 16 rug dies
resources burned - 1 rage
Dragon
I'll use the same tactics that killed Bela last time, although Bela
has a plan for if it ducks into water (enlarge, jump in and grapple)
Dragon gets init (55%), breathes for 15 and moves in to full attack range
Bela fails save (+3 vs 17 = 35%) and takes 5 damage
Bela hexblade curses the dragon, which fails (+7 vs 11 140%)
dragon is at -2 to attacks, saves, damage for an hour
bela draws TF bag, provoking AOO (dragon +10 vs 32 145%
Bela throws tf bag at dragon (+9 vs 10 130%),
dragon makes save and is just entangled (+3 vs 15 185%)
dragon 85ent5 Bela 38
dragon tries a full atatck, and misses (5 attacks, 5% chance, 210%)
bela rages, attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 210%) for 16
dragon breathes for 15, Bela fails save again (+3 vs 17 = 245%) takes 5 more
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 325%) for 16 and 5' steps back
dragon 53ent3 Bela 48
dragon removes the tanglefoot bag with full attack (automatic, it does enough)
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac17 405%) for 16
dragon 37 Bela 48
dragon tries full attack when not entangled and is at 10% for bite, 5% for rest, misses (240%)
bela attacks, hits (+12 vs ac19 365%) for 16
dragon 21 Bela 48
dragon withdraws, waiting for breath weapon to come back
bela unslings shield and throws magic stone +14 vs AC19 (445%) and misses
dragon 21 bela 48
Dragon breaths on Bela and he passes, taking no damage (480%).
bela unslings shield and throws magic stone +14 vs AC19 (560%)
dragon 9, bela 48
dragon dives into the pool hoping to get the advantage underwater
Bela dives in, attacking with armor spikes and holding his breath
bela +14 vs AC19 640% and misses
dragon full attacks shieldless bela +10 and 4x+8 vs AC26 hits once (325%)
weighted damage including curse is 3 points
bela +14 vs AC19 720% hits for 11
dragon -2, bela 45. Bela burns three clw charges to heal, plus more for his horse.
How does a level 1 character (initiator level 1/2 = 0) have martial study/stance?
Edit: The sblock and /sblock (in square brackets [] ) also make things easier to parse.
It doesn't specificy that you need to have an initiator level greater than 1.
I would prefer:
What is the interaction between venomfire and a creature immune to poison?
The way the question was phrased might stress the acid damage too much, which is the entire contention. I do not think this phrasing puts any emphasis on where the damage comes from.
(In my mind, it is similar to a +1 silver longsword. A creature immune to magical weapons would be immune. A creature immune to silver is immune. A creature immune to slashing is immune).
I already sent that question and here is the answer.
Thank you for writing. If someone is immune to poison, they will still take the acid damage.
Good Gaming!
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This is no more strange than getting luminous armor scrolls etc
1200 2 potions of bull strength, CL6
600 2 potions of shillelagh, CL6
300 potion of resist energy acid (10)
50 potion of resist fear (in case it has an aura, duration 10 min)
50 potion of mage armor (just in case)
50 antitoxin (just in case)
50 extra oil of magic stone (the dragon might be flying a lot
50 extra tanglefoot bag
2350 Bela sells one of his holy water vials to make up the difference in cost and buys 5 extra sunrods
That's why when I did it as a caster, I used nothing but a few charges from wands! YAY! :D
Grizley: I am very pleased to hear about the consistent venomfire ruling. I would be said if my DR/10 evil didn't protect me from addition effects but it's poison immunity did protect it from additional effects.
It doesn't specificy that you need to have an initiator level greater than 1.
But you don't have an initiator level of even one (IL1 is needed to use level 1 maneuvers). Or is this covered somewhere already?
How can you be so sure? What does a centaur wear? I think fleshrakers are based on "velociraptors", which are in ways more humanoid than a centaur is. They stand upright (but stooped) on their back legs, and have forelimbs that are basically used as arms.
I am guessing ... based on the premise that animals wear barding.
A centaur is a monstrous humanoid (special armor)
An elf is humanoid (normal armor)
I'm going to resubmit questions. I just got a response that basically boiled down to "The feature 'Ask Wizards' is useless. Even though that's what we tell you to use, the questions rarely get answered. Yes, yes, it's deliberately hard to find the right place to ask your questions and when you search, you're led to the 'Ask Wizards' feature. Suck it up."
I just remembered one of your questions -- it was for my 10th level version of my build ... weapon focus from swordsage as a pre-req for pious templar.
http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060906a
It works
updated "Bela on Drugs" because CR5 black dragons only do 15 damage, not 30 with their breath weapons (6d4). Bela won that fight easily too...but still had to spend 3900gp to earn 2700. Better than dying though I guess, but he'd have done a lot better to bring some friends along. The change didn't affect the outcome in the original black dragon vs con-drained, no-rage Bela although Bela nicked up the dragon a bit more and it lasted longer.
The use of scrolls is really more for the attempting to kill a double spawn of the CR5 encounters than it is for a single. I'm confident that without the animal growth and armor scrolls the druid will still win, but may take damage while doing so.
Keep in mind that he can use enlarge person potions to grow both himself and Pouncy to large size. The buff sharing explicitly allows both personal only and spells that would normally be invalid for the animal companion (ie. humaniod only) to work.
The way I see it he dies horribly to pretty much every encounter without the heavy expendable use version.
The manticore launches 24 spikes, hits with something like 10 of those, then dives from a height of 100 feet onto Bela (Dive maneuver). Thats likely going to finish Bela off.
The snake missed on your run due to an odd carry over from init. It has +13 v ac 20 or something at the time I believe. So round 1, snake grapples and kills Bela.
The rug grapples on the supprise round, not a normal hit. Bela gets wrapped up and crushed.
The method you are using for the rolling is... unusual to say the least. The odds accumulating from init to attacks and all dice rolls accumulating into a single pool.
Keep in mind that he can use enlarge person potions to grow both himself and Pouncy to large size. The buff sharing explicitly allows both personal only and spells that would normally be invalid for the animal companion (ie. humaniod only) to work.
You could share spells like that, but not potions.
First of all, I must apologize to Meyer_Williams and others about the argument we had 30-something pages ago about meeting the pre-requisites for martial maneuvers. Apparently, having sufficient IL in "the class to which you are trying to add the maneuvers" is sufficient for selecting any maneuver from any discipline. So a Warblade 1 / SomethingElseNotTOB 4 (Warblade IL = 3) can choose Fire Riposte with the Desert Wind Cloak or with the Martial Study feat, even though Warblades don't normally have access to Desert Wind and his Swordsage IL is still 2 at this point. I am still not convinced as to how balanced this ruling is, it seems somewhat dangerous to me, opening up some abusable "loop-holes" in how maneuvers can be acquired. Specifically, it allows "cherry-picking" the very best maneuvers from other disciplines with minimal or no investment in the usual martial base classes, or "cherry-picking" the good maneuvers that for some reason have small number or even zero other maneuvers in their pre-requisite line (like shadow blink or mountain tombstone strike). In my defense, CustServ (Sam) did say :
We appreciate your patience while waiting for our reply to your questions. We had to do some pretty serious research to get some answers for you. Just so you know, we are collecting errata for the Tome of Battle, so many bits of confusion in the book will be publicly clarified in a future errata update.
It does not seem that this question was simple or obvious or a foregone conclusion one way or the other (for what it's worth, they took 1 week to get back to me, I was surprised that some people here dismissed it so quickly). So I guess this removes my objection to the Orc entry using Fire Riposte, however, note that Fire Riposte must still compete with the other maneuvers known for the Warblade "readied" slots. Since the Orc acquires Burning Blade prior to having any levels in an initiator base class, he can only use it 1/encounter with no refresh mechanism. I assume that the 3 "readied" maneuvers for the Orc's Warblade progression are : Fire Riposte, Sudden Leap, and Rabid Wolf Strike. Emerald Razor is not used much if at all throughout the various encounters CR2 - CR5. These are all just minor nit-picks with the Orc entry at this point.
If anyone is interested, here is the complete discourse with CustServ. Most of it does not apply to this thread at all, I will probably cross-post it to the Tome of Battle Q&A thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611).
My email to CustServ :
Show
Dear Customer Service Experts,
I have some questions about rules presented in the Tome of Battle : Book of the Nine Swords product.
I understand from previous sage rulings and email from CustServ that the initiator level for various base initiator classes is tracked separately using the formula : Initiator level = class level + (total levels in all other classes / 2). Fractions rounded down as usual in a case like this one.
Several places in the book there are various mechanisms to learn new maneuvers outside of gaining a level in an Initiator class. I am concerned with three of them in particular : the feat Martial Study, the wondrous magic items such the White Raven Crown, the Iron Heart Vest, etc., and the consumable martial scripts that store knowledge of a single maneuver and grant temporary access to it.
All three of these methods of gaining access to a maneuver use language similar to "select a maneuver for which you meet the pre-requisites". I would assume that this must mean more than just the "prerequisite" line in the maneuver's description block, and that it must somehow include initiator level as well. If it did not, a Crusader 1 / Fighter 1 could select Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality) at level 2 assuming he or she selected at least 3 Devoted Spirits Maneuvers at level 1 of Crusader. Now my real question becomes :
1) Does the character need sufficient initiator level in one of the initiator classes that normally grants access to the maneuver or does the character simply need sufficient initiator level in the class to which the maneuver is about to be added? What is the true meaning of "selecting a maneuver for which a character meets the prerequisites". The character must have the right number of other maneuvers already known in the discipline? The character must have high enough IL in an Initiator base class that normally can access the discipline? The character just needs to have high enough IL any one base class for maneuvers of that level?
For example :
Character 1 : Warblade 16 followed by Crusader 1 (picking at least 3 devoted spirit maneuvers) followed by Fighter 1 (Warblade IL = 17, Crusader IL = 9)
His Warblade IL is high enough for 9th level maneuvers, but his Crusader IL is only high enough for access to 5th level maneuvers.
2) Could this character select a 9th level Devoted Spirit maneuver with Martial Study (i.e. Strike of Righteous Vitality) for his 18th character level feat and add it to his list of Warblade maneuvers known?
3) Could this character equip the Master Devoted Spirit Wondrous Item and gain a 9th level Devoted Spirit maneuver and add it to his list of Warblade maneuvers known?
4) Could this character read a martial script of Strike of Righteous Vitality and use it once, assuming the script is written in a language he understands?
Character 2 : Warblade 13
5) Could this character read a martial script of Shadow Blink (the 7th level shadow hand maneuver that grants a short range teleport effect as a swift action)? Shadow Blink has no "x number of other maneuvers" type prerequisite so I assume the only prerequisite is related to Initiator level. A warblade 13 can learn 7th level maneuvers, but normally has no access to shadow hand maneuvers. Is this character instead limited to 3rd level shadow hand maneuvers since his Swordsage IL is only 6 (which only allows up to 3rd level maneuvers)? If instead he was Warblade 12 / Fighter 2 could he select Martial Study (Shadow Blink) with his fighter bonus feat and add it to his Warblade maneuvers?
Character 3 : Fighter 4 followed by Warblade 1 (Warblade IL = 3)
6) If this character took Martial Study with his level 2 fighter bonus feat to learn the level 1 Desert Wind Maneuver "Burning Blade", then acquired an Apprentice Desert Wind Cloak, could he use the cloak to select Fire Riposte (a 2nd level Desert Wind Maneuver) and add it to his Warblade maneuvers known? He would meet the prerequisite of "1 Desert Wind Maneuver" with Martial Study, his Warblade IL is 3 (high enough for 2nd level maneuvers, but Warblades do not normally gain access to Desert Wind and his Swordsage IL is still only 2, not high enough to select 2nd level maneuvers). Which IL (Warblade or Swordsage) does he get to use here?
Some other, more general questions :
7) Do the martial scripts have minimum initiator levels at which they must scribed similar to scrolls and caster level? I would assume this to be the case, but there is no explicit text like there is in the description of scroll creation. For example, a martial script of Iron Heart Surge must be scribed at an IL of at least 5 (since it is a 3rd level maneuver)?
8) Can the disciple specific wondrous items grant stances as well as ordinary maneuvers? Stances are not specifically mentioned. Sometimes the book uses the word "maneuver" to include both stances and ordinary maneuvers, is this one of those cases?
9) When a PrC grants multiple maneuvers known and/or maneuvers readied (such as Master of the Nine), can the character split them up in any way desired among various initiator base classes he may have? For example, if a multi-classed crusader/warblade/swordsage gains the first level of master of the nine, could he assign the maneuver readied to his crusader base class and 1 of the maneuvers known to his swordsage base class and the final maneuver known to his
warblade base class?
10) When using one the disciple wondrous items to gain access to a maneuver, my understanding is that it is added to maneuvers known. It must then be selected as a readied maneuver if the initiator wants to make use of it in an encounter. Is this correct? It does not expand the number of maneuvers the owner is allowed to ready normally?
11) When can the owner of a disciple wondrous item change the maneuver to which it is currently granting access? It mentions owning it for 24 hours continuously before it can be used. But can the owner of the item take 5 minutes to change readied maneuvers and also change exactly which maneuver is currently being granted by the item? What if the item owner has the Adaptive Style feat, can the maneuver granted by the wondrous item be changed as a part of the full round action to reset readied maneuvers using Adaptive Style? Or does the user need to remove the item and then wear again it for another 24 hours before it could grant a different maneuver?
12) A multi-classed Fighter/Warblade/Cleric could potentially qualify for the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC (using martial study and martial stance feats to learn devoted spirit maneuvers). Even though the warblade does not normally gain access to the Devoted Spirit discipline, can the character select Devoted Spirit maneuvers and add them to his Warblade maneuvers known (the Ruby Knight Vindicator specifically mentions devoted spirit as a possible discipline for its maneuvers). Or do they get treated like a character without any maneuver base class and become usable once per encounter with no refresh mechanism?
13) Can a character who is grappled (but not pinned) initiate Shadow Jaunt (the level 2 shadow hand maneuver) to escape? What about a pinned character? What about Shadow Blink (the swift action maneuver)?
Thank you in advance for any help insight you can provide. In answering the questions, it would be great if you could let me know if there was simply something I missed in the rules text, or if the answer is based more on understanding the intent of the rules (because you guys wrote them and all), even though the rule was left out or not stated clearly in the source material. I understand if this extra information would be too much trouble though, any help at all is appreciated.
Dear Customer Service Experts,
I have some questions about rules presented in the Tome of Battle : Book of the Nine Swords product.
I understand from previous sage rulings and email from CustServ that the initiator level for various base initiator classes is tracked separately using the formula : Initiator level = class level + (total levels in all other classes / 2). Fractions rounded down as usual in a case like this one.
Several places in the book there are various mechanisms to learn new maneuvers outside of gaining a level in an Initiator class. I am concerned with three of them in particular : the feat Martial Study, the wondrous magic items such the White Raven Crown, the Iron Heart Vest, etc., and the consumable martial scripts that store knowledge of a single maneuver and grant temporary access to it.
All three of these methods of gaining access to a maneuver use language similar to "select a maneuver for which you meet the pre-requisites". I would assume that this must mean more than just the "prerequisite" line in the maneuver's description block, and that it must somehow include initiator level as well. If it did not, a Crusader 1 / Fighter 1 could select Martial Study (Strike of Righteous Vitality) at level 2 assuming he or she selected at least 3 Devoted Spirits Maneuvers at level 1 of Crusader. Now my real question becomes :
1) Does the character need sufficient initiator level in one of the initiator classes that normally grants access to the maneuver or does the character simply need sufficient initiator level in the class to which the maneuver is about to be added? What is the true meaning of "selecting a maneuver for which a character meets the prerequisites". The character must have the right number of other maneuvers already known in the discipline? The character must have high enough IL in an Initiator base class that normally can access the discipline? The character just needs to have high enough IL any one base class for maneuvers of that level?
For example :
Character 1 : Warblade 16 followed by Crusader 1 (picking at least 3 devoted spirit maneuvers) followed by Fighter 1 (Warblade IL = 17, Crusader IL = 9)
His Warblade IL is high enough for 9th level maneuvers, but his Crusader IL is only high enough for access to 5th level maneuvers.
2) Could this character select a 9th level Devoted Spirit maneuver with Martial Study (i.e. Strike of Righteous Vitality) for his 18th character level feat and add it to his list of Warblade maneuvers known?
3) Could this character equip the Master Devoted Spirit Wondrous Item and gain a 9th level Devoted Spirit maneuver and add it to his list of Warblade maneuvers known?
4) Could this character read a martial script of Strike of Righteous Vitality and use it once, assuming the script is written in a language he understands?
Character 2 : Warblade 13
5) Could this character read a martial script of Shadow Blink (the 7th level shadow hand maneuver that grants a short range teleport effect as a swift action)? Shadow Blink has no "x number of other maneuvers" type prerequisite so I assume the only prerequisite is related to Initiator level. A warblade 13 can learn 7th level maneuvers, but normally has no access to shadow hand maneuvers. Is this character instead limited to 3rd level shadow hand maneuvers since his Swordsage IL is only 6 (which only allows up to 3rd level maneuvers)? If instead he was Warblade 12 / Fighter 2 could he select Martial Study (Shadow Blink) with his fighter bonus feat and add it to his Warblade maneuvers?
Character 3 : Fighter 4 followed by Warblade 1 (Warblade IL = 3)
6) If this character took Martial Study with his level 2 fighter bonus feat to learn the level 1 Desert Wind Maneuver "Burning Blade", then acquired an Apprentice Desert Wind Cloak, could he use the cloak to select Fire Riposte (a 2nd level Desert Wind Maneuver) and add it to his Warblade maneuvers known? He would meet the prerequisite of "1 Desert Wind Maneuver" with Martial Study, his Warblade IL is 3 (high enough for 2nd level maneuvers, but Warblades do not normally gain access to Desert Wind and his Swordsage IL is still only 2, not high enough to select 2nd level maneuvers). Which IL (Warblade or Swordsage) does he get to use here?
Some other, more general questions :
7) Do the martial scripts have minimum initiator levels at which they must scribed similar to scrolls and caster level? I would assume this to be the case, but there is no explicit text like there is in the description of scroll creation. For example, a martial script of Iron Heart Surge must be scribed at an IL of at least 5 (since it is a 3rd level maneuver)?
8) Can the disciple specific wondrous items grant stances as well as ordinary maneuvers? Stances are not specifically mentioned. Sometimes the book uses the word "maneuver" to include both stances and ordinary maneuvers, is this one of those cases?
9) When a PrC grants multiple maneuvers known and/or maneuvers readied (such as Master of the Nine), can the character split them up in any way desired among various initiator base classes he may have? For example, if a multi-classed crusader/warblade/swordsage gains the first level of master of the nine, could he assign the maneuver readied to his crusader base class and 1 of the maneuvers known to his swordsage base class and the final maneuver known to his
warblade base class?
10) When using one the disciple wondrous items to gain access to a maneuver, my understanding is that it is added to maneuvers known. It must then be selected as a readied maneuver if the initiator wants to make use of it in an encounter. Is this correct? It does not expand the number of maneuvers the owner is allowed to ready normally?
11) When can the owner of a disciple wondrous item change the maneuver to which it is currently granting access? It mentions owning it for 24 hours continuously before it can be used. But can the owner of the item take 5 minutes to change readied maneuvers and also change exactly which maneuver is currently being granted by the item? What if the item owner has the Adaptive Style feat, can the maneuver granted by the wondrous item be changed as a part of the full round action to reset readied maneuvers using Adaptive Style? Or does the user need to remove the item and then wear again it for another 24 hours before it could grant a different maneuver?
12) A multi-classed Fighter/Warblade/Cleric could potentially qualify for the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC (using martial study and martial stance feats to learn devoted spirit maneuvers). Even though the warblade does not normally gain access to the Devoted Spirit discipline, can the character select Devoted Spirit maneuvers and add them to his Warblade maneuvers known (the Ruby Knight Vindicator specifically mentions devoted spirit as a possible discipline for its maneuvers). Or do they get treated like a character without any maneuver base class and become usable once per encounter with no refresh mechanism?
13) Can a character who is grappled (but not pinned) initiate Shadow Jaunt (the level 2 shadow hand maneuver) to escape? What about a pinned character? What about Shadow Blink (the swift action maneuver)?
Thank you in advance for any help insight you can provide. In answering the questions, it would be great if you could let me know if there was simply something I missed in the rules text, or if the answer is based more on understanding the intent of the rules (because you guys wrote them and all), even though the rule was left out or not stated clearly in the source material. I understand if this extra information would be too much trouble though, any help at all is appreciated.
So...Bela "wins" but....
total cost of the adventure: 3450 plus ~300(clw wand charges) 50 (faith heal potions), 50 (magic stone), tanglefoot bag 50, sunrod 1 = 3901gp
Earned was probably on order of 2700gp
Perhaps the NPC wealth levels come from doing such stupid things
Edited because CR5 black dragons only do weighted damage of 15 not 30 when breathing.
Hehe, actually 4 CR5 encounters mean ~6400 gold, table is in the DMG page 51.
But yeah, he is going into NPC wealth levels with that kind of investments!
Keep in mind that he can use enlarge person potions to grow both himself and Pouncy to large size. The buff sharing explicitly allows both personal only and spells that would normally be invalid for the animal companion (ie. humaniod only) to work.
Enlarge person adds +2 to strength for -1 to hit (size) and +1/+0 damage on each nat weapon and -2 to AC (dex,size)
Animal growth adds +8 to str, +4/+2 dmg on each nat weapon, doesn't have an AC hit (adds nat armor) adds hitpoints via constitution growth and adds DR/10.
I'm cool with enlarge, and would like to see that one run. Animal growth is like unerattad Righteous Might with 10x the duration. It makes a tremendous difference.
Solberg, nice work posting a melee that isn't using ToB or PAO.
The way I see it he dies horribly to pretty much every encounter without the heavy expendable use version.
The manticore launches 24 spikes, hits with something like 10 of those, then dives from a height of 100 feet onto Bela (Dive maneuver). Thats likely going to finish Bela off.
The snake missed on your run due to an odd carry over from init. It has +13 v ac 20 or something at the time I believe. So round 1, snake grapples and kills Bela.
The rug grapples on the supprise round, not a normal hit. Bela gets wrapped up and crushed.
The method you are using for the rolling is... unusual to say the least. The odds accumulating from init to attacks and all dice rolls accumulating into a single pool.
Manticore - no. It can kill the horse, but that takes two salvoes (and without it, me taking cover from horse drops its hit rolls into 5%) but its spikes are +8 even without horse and I'm AC27 when defensively tossing javelins or splash weapons at it, or immune if I just ready to go full cover behind tower shield vs whatever angle it is shooting at if it's too high up. It's not going to hit with many. It only hit with some because I was flatfooted. You can't do the dive maneuver with poor maneuverability, and even if you could, it's facing AC32 vs a readied attack (full expertise and defensive) so it would just miss. You can argue that it might win the ensuing melee, but I still have that tanglefoot bag to turn it blow vs blow and its AC is pitiful and hitpoints not that large. The way I actually did the manticore encounter was more dangerous than your suggested tactics, largely because I failed the ride check when the mount got killed out from under me.
Snake and rug, yeah probably. I carry success of all rolls over. The disengaging and pulling in pets was just to get to the next step. I counted those as Bela Loses in the unbuffed version.
How am I supposed to accumulate the dice? (it doesn't make any real difference on the buffed version, (eg, rug hits with touch attack but fails grapple check, then loses init and is unable to do anything to Bela after that...) but to me if you roll dice, there is a % of success and failure...why wouldn't it be all one pool? I'm not metagaming actions based on the cumulative percent, or at least trying not to)
Hehe, actually 4 CR5 encounters mean ~6400 gold, table is in the DMG page 51.
But yeah, he is going into NPC wealth levels with that kind of investments!
Huh. Cool. That means I can go off and to part two with similar investment. He needs to go on a side adventure with some friends to get level drained, fail the check 24 hours later, earn a bit more cash, get another restoration and come back starting level 5 with exactly level 5 gold.
Huh. Cool. That means I can go off and to part two with similar investment. He needs to go on a side adventure with some friends to get level drained, fail the check 24 hours later, earn a bit more cash, get another restoration and come back starting level 5 with exactly level 5 gold.
Equipment needs to stay the same for each and every mini-adventure. This means that consumables are recovered, but you may not change out what you have.
First of all, I must apologize to Meyer_Williams and others about the argument we had 30-something pages ago about meeting the pre-requisites for martial maneuvers. Apparently, having sufficient IL in "the class to which you are trying to add the maneuvers" is sufficient for selecting any maneuver from any discipline.
No apology needed. We had a difference of opinion. It got resolved. This is remarkably similar to my stance on Venomfire. From the brief snippet Grizley posted, it looks like my stance has been reversed (I would like to see the whole email/response like you showed, but ... as it stands, looks like CustServ ruled it differently to how I saw it.).
Custserv ruling on venomfire means the rug is going to be acid-burned by the fleshraker, however I am still not convinced the acid will have any effect in the wraith. Wraiths, being incorporeal, are invulnerable to non-magical attacks, including acid vials (only exception is holy water). The fleshraker claws are magical attacks as they are under a magic fang spell, but the poison is not magical, and therefore the acid is not magical either. Just like acid created by a fabricate spell would have no effect on a wraith, I don't think the acid created by venomfire would harm an incorporeal critter.
Pertinent paragraph from the SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype
"An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source [skip]"
Poison is an extraordinary ability. Unless venomfire turns it into a supernatural ability, it can't affect the wraith. Before I hear comparisons with fireballs, remember the target of venomfire is the fleshraker, not the wraith.
You're correct about the weapon focus question, and it's good to see that resolved as well.
Also, if nobody else comments on the other questions, I'm going to go with what is discussed between now and tomorrow at lunch (~12:15 EST).
I am guessing ... based on the premise that animals wear barding.
A centaur is a monstrous humanoid (special armor)
An elf is humanoid (normal armor)
Of course, this brings up another problem with the ambiguity of the rules as they're currently written. Like what about a monstrous humanoid that is humanoid shaped?
Or other creatures...
Giant?
Raptorian?
Illithid?
Kelvezu?
Succubus?
Marilith?
Where is the cut-off between 'close enough to humanoid in shape' and 'nope, that takes special armor'? Just going with gut feeling leads to endless argument.
To me, barding is made by one race (such as humans), for a different (horses) and relies on the first race to actually don/remove it.
This was never a question that needed answering. A fleshraker does not wear non-standard armor.
Because it was brought up by Grizzley and PhaedrusXY mentions that it is questionable, I'll keep it in. If nothing else, maybe it's not too late for 4ed to consider basing armor price, weight, don/remove time, etc. on the size of the wearer, rather than the ambiguous split between armor and barding.
8A: If 'YES', how would the cost be determined?
Ok. Will do.
Argaud's question:
Here's the situation; a Fleshraker dinosaur is enchanted with Magic Fang (affecting a poison attack) and Venomfire attacks a Wraith. The wraith is immune to poison. A previous CustServ ruling stated that a creature immune to poison would still take the acid damage from Venomfire. Is the acid damage considered a magical source and thus effect the wraith, or is the acid non-magical since Venomfire is just adding acid damage to a non-magical poison?
Kinda convoluted, but the situation is getting so specific and right down to the nitty-gritty that the question to resolve this may need to be as well.
Argaud's question:
Here's the situation; a Fleshraker dinosaur is enchanted with Magic Fang (affecting a poison attack) and Venomfire attacks a Wraith. The wraith is immune to poison. A previous CustServ ruling stated that a creature immune to poison would still take the acid damage from Venomfire. Is the acid damage considered a magical source and thus effect the wraith, or is the acid non-magical since Venomfire is just adding acid damage to a non-magical poison?
Kinda convoluted, but the situation is getting so specific and right down to the nitty-gritty that the question to resolve this may need to be as well.
Sounds good. I almost feel sorry for the guy that has to answer our convoluted questions, though.
Hmm, since they are already on it, you might ask if the normal and fire damage of an arrow under a flame arrow spell would affect the wraith. And also if the added fire (or cold/electric) damage of a magical flaming sword would work.
Regarding the Crypt of Creepiness:
3. For simplicity each encounter occurs in a room that measures 40 by 40 by 40.
Doesn't that mean with fly (or say, Spider Legs from BoVD) persisted, you are immune to all the encounters except the first one?
Sure, the vampire can spider climb, but that requires both hands. Sure it can gaseous form, but it is a standard action to move back, which means it falls. Sure, it has dire bat form...I guess I have to figure out how to kill it in Dire Bat form...dominate only has a range of 30 feet.
Seems kind of cheap, but yeah, I could do this without major expenditures.
Besides that, your solution is to metagame the mini-adventure.
Oh, and is it so unreasonable? With the new spell set I am working on I have:
Resist 10 all, DR 10/Evil, high AC, SR 5, and balor nimbus, high saves. I am highly resistant to: Melee attacks, grapples, spells, and energy attacks. Would it not make sense to add a little mobility in? I am looking at picking up the strongest, most versatile spell set.
Furthermore, my original run of it involved leaving for 2 days then coming back. By then I could see how useful the ceiling and a ranged weapon might be, and gone with that.
Does the "No LA races" mean that templates are out of the picture as well?
Oh yeah, does the "No psionic classes" bar the usage of power points or the feat Hidden talent (that actually gives you one psionic power and 2 pp)?
Also, is it allowed to freely use variant systems, such as fractional bab, flaws, traits etc?
Meyer! I have a few questions regarding the rules of this challenge...
Does the "No LA races" mean that templates are out of the picture as well?
Oh yeah, does the "No psionic classes" bar the usage of power points or the feat Hidden talent (that actually gives you one psionic power and 2 pp)?
Also, is it allowed to freely use variant systems, such as fractional bab, flaws, traits etc?
Nothing was said about templates so LA+0 templates are as allowed as LA+0 races, however, just use common sense. I think anything would be allowed, but then again, I don't know everything out there. If the template is key to your build, please PM me (or post the question) before you spend tons of time on it. For instance, if you need to be struck by lightning, while level 1, while being attacked by an undead under a full moon to acquire the template, the answer is no. If the penalty for the template is hidden because of how the scoring is set up, then no (i.e. if normal npcs (not monsters) run in fear and try to set you on fire, then no).
Someone else has already used the feat that allowed for power points to be able to power their concentration check. So they are legal, however, hidden talent (allowing a power and 2 PPS) needs to be left up to the group. Personally, I think it should be allowed, as both casters and noncasters can get it just as easily (1 feat), but I leave that to the team.
"Freely use variant systems": Most of them, yes, Some of them, no. (like some of the variant spellcasting / etc). Flaws, traits, and alternate class abilities have been used. Unsure of Fractional BAB as it requires fractional saves and my build (at least) requires save stacking to work the way I envision it. One build using Frac and most builds not seems off. But I leave this to the group.
Since the Venomfire question is already answered, I'll omit that one. However, I might add Argaud's question about how incorporeal, claw attack, venomfire, magic fang, etc. interact. I'll need input on that question as well.
Last question from me:
Unsure of the wording -- but the question has to do with the druid/animal companion's movement rate.
Or did we decide that they have to play leap frog for maximum speed. This has extreme significance for this build.
Last question from me:
Unsure of the wording -- but the question has to do with the druid/animal companion's movement rate.
Or did we decide that they have to play leap frog for maximum speed. This has extreme significance for this build.
I think you would only have to worry about the movement stuff after initiative has been rolled. It is also probably easier to not worry about it, as one of them can move forward 30' and ready an action to move when the other one gets close, etc. It would cut movement down, but again, this seems fairly irrelevant to the real discussion at hand.
-AS-
I think you would only have to worry about the movement stuff after initiative has been rolled. It is also probably easier to not worry about it, as one of them can move forward 30' and ready an action to move when the other one gets close, etc. It would cut movement down, but again, this seems fairly irrelevant to the real discussion at hand.
-AS-
It has a large impact on this discussion when we are talking about exactly how far the animal companion/druid/wraith are apart. Remember, we are concerned about a 5' difference in positioning determines if the animal companion's buffs fall off.
I think all completed builds have been examined and scores posted. Please look and tell me if I missed any, or if the links I have to your characters are not the most up to date links.
It has a large impact on this discussion when we are talking about exactly how far the animal companion/druid/wraith are apart. Remember, we are concerned about a 5' difference in positioning determines if the animal companion's buffs fall off.
No kidding, I can read. So what about what I actually said about movement, though? This, again, is nitpicky and not relevant to the issue.
As they are moving through the cave side by side, suddenly the companion stops. Druid asks whats up, companion says there's a mean undead coming for you(via speak with animals just in case you want to question whether or not the wraith was eavesdropping). Druid stands around acting innocent and scared, so the wraith attacks him. The druid kills the wraith. If the wraith moves toward the companion, it moves away until it is at the radius of the unnatural aura. Unless it is forced into the aura it will not get panicked. Typically you cannot force auras upon someone(magic circle v evil) so, by moving closer, the wraith would cause the companion to move but not panic it.
Again, this is a simple encounter to explain and manage.
-AS-
At a minimum, as almost every build uses flaws and traits, this trend acknowledges that flaws and traits directly increases the overall power of a build. This creates builds that are not quite representative of class performance in the wild, where flaws are rarely used.
A few questions to ask about any builds are: does a build show the power of flaws and traits rather than the power of the class? How well does a build work without flaws and traits?
(i.e. if normal npcs (not monsters) run in fear and try to set you on fire, then no).
Well.. the character is that scary.
And it's the Feral template from savage species. (yes, it's sort of key to the build)
Btw, on posting format, do the fights need to be done in %-form or is it okay to roll and post the results?
I've noticed that almost everyone uses flaws and traits. As most games do not use these rules, I think it important to acknowledge that we are using a variant here.
At a minimum, as almost every build uses flaws and traits, this trend acknowledges that flaws and traits directly increases the overall power of a build. This creates builds that are not quite representative of class performance in the wild, where flaws are rarely used.
A few questions to ask about any builds are: does a build show the power of flaws and traits rather than the power of the class? How well does a build work without flaws and traits?
To get rid of my two flaws+traits.
I swap out EWP Spiked Chain for a Guisarme, I deal the same damage per hit. I add spikes to my chain shirt to make up for the lack of spiked chain. I can't think of an instance where it would make a difference.
The second feat would be harder and would change the character a lot. (either draconic vigor (this removes him from the secondary healing role and increases his reliance on consumables) or martial study (losing access to fire riposte)).
However, this would increase my fort save (one of my flaws) as well as my AC (another flaw).
My traits, I lose 2 init (agressive) but gain a point of ac, and the other one I raise my reflexes by 1, but lose 1 point of will save.
It would be hard, but I think I could do it.
Well.. the character is that scary.
And it's the Feral template from savage species. (yes, it's sort of key to the build)
Btw, on posting format, do the fights need to be done in %-form or is it okay to roll and post the results?
Feral is a +1 LA template. I am of the opinion that it should be banned, however, I leave this to the group.
Rolling dice is a bad thing, as luck then plays a huge part of things.
It has a large impact on this discussion when we are talking about exactly how far the animal companion/druid/wraith are apart. Remember, we are concerned about a 5' difference in positioning determines if the animal companion's buffs fall off.
It doesn't matter since the druid prepares an action and charges the wraith when its 40' from Pouncy.
At the end of round 1 Pouncy is 40' from the wraith and the wraith is 10' from the druid. The druid is 30' from Pouncy. The wraith will move up 5' to attack the druid and eat an AOO doing so.
EDIT: I still see the manticore killing you, either as you try to sneak past or when it hears the fight with the snake and volleys you from behind.
I've noticed that almost everyone uses flaws and traits. As most games do not use these rules, I think it important to acknowledge that we are using a variant here.
At a minimum, as almost every build uses flaws and traits, this trend acknowledges that flaws and traits directly increases the overall power of a build. This creates builds that are not quite representative of class performance in the wild, where flaws are rarely used.
A few questions to ask about any builds are: does a build show the power of flaws and traits rather than the power of the class? How well does a build work without flaws and traits?
Flaws and traits improve every build, and I don't think casters or non-casters have a huge advantage when it comes to benefitting from more feats, or having a trait. However, since some of the builds use them, then you'd be a fool not to, as they do power-up a character. It's basically an arms race. If one person uses them, everyone else basically has to to keep up.
I don't think it is worth analyzing, as I don't think it gives more of an advantage to either group, though. Well... it would probably be of slightly less benefit to a single-classed fighter than to a martial cleric or druid, now that I think about it. But still, trying to tease that out would add another layer of complexity to an analysis that is already complicated enough. We should either just let everyone use them, or ban them across the board. Since everyone is already using them, this option is alot easier to implement.
Last question from me:
Unsure of the wording -- but the question has to do with the druid/animal companion's movement rate.
Or did we decide that they have to play leap frog for maximum speed. This has extreme significance for this build.
I'll include a question about it, but if memory serves me, this was already answered as "out of combat, they can move at the same time/speed. When in combat, the move on their initiative count."
"Bela on Drugs" wins every encounter except maybe the rug pretty easily. If the rug grabs and grapples him round 1 he might not be able to escape before he runs out of hitpoints. If he does escape, pass even one grapple check, he wins.
I'm looking at the blurb for the 2nd combat encounter and the "Bela on Drugs" strategy won't work there, as the encounters may be across hours or days and it is unpredictable when all but the first are (I like this by the way, much more like my real life gaming experience with Bela). I need to tinker his equipment a bit to ensure he has a plan for the hydra though, including allocating cash to pay a sage to find out what the heck a hydra is and how a warrior might kill one. (you have zero chance if you go in blind, at least if you are Bela, luckily the rumor is there). I'll probably need about 1000gp of hydra-specific consumables and a plan to spot it and disengage to use those consumables, so I suspect I'm not gonna have a magic sword again *sigh*.
Per some comments and some though, I'm going to separate initiative and saving throws into their own "pools" (attack rolls are frequent enough that they can reset each fight....saves and inits are not...Bela never, ever wins initiative under the way I did it before and that's not actually realistic..the d20 looms large in opposed checks). Also I'll put the horse on his own track if he's involved in a fight, ditto multiple opponents (riders/mounts get one check, the riders for init but their own attack charts, etc). I think skill checks will get their own pool too, if not take 10, or obviously possible or impossible.
The Merchant of Moscow
a.k.a “In Soviet Russia, Encounters bypass YOU!”
My father was a great adventurer. When he retired, he spent his life selling items recovered from dusty tombs and ancient temples. I helped with the business, but eventually his stories proved to alluring. Posessing a knack for the business, my work has been profitable.
A few months back I saw a live stoneflyer. A few extra coins burning in my pocket, I sold everything I had (save for my armor and, of course, my father's lance) I trained it myself, and since then, I've been clever enough that no foe has gotten a single blow off on me.
Ghostwise Halfling: Psychic Warrior 1, Fighter 4 (Although this technically may break the rules, I have 1 PP. I take catfall, a fairly useless power)
Feats: 1[flaw] Mindsight, 1[normal] Mercantile Background, 1 [psychic warrior] Improved Speak Without Sound, 2[fighter] Mounted Combat, 3 [fighter] Ride by Attack, 3[normal] Ancestral Relic, 5[fighter] Spirited Charge
Flaw: Inattentive
Skills: Maxed out: Ride, Handle Animal
Abilities:
12 Str; 11 Dex; 14 Con; 14 Wis; 10 Int; 12 Cha
Equipment: 1 Stoneflyer (7,500 gp with Mercantile Background), One +1 lance (ancestral relic), 1 chainshirt, 1 exotic military saddle, 1 heavy steel shield
10 gp remaining
I train the Stoneflyer myself, and off we go.
Skimming below the ground, I pick up the manticore on my mindsight. I maneuver below it and charge it from below, imagining its surprise as a lance erupts from the ground and hits (56.3% chance), doing 19.5 points of damage. It’s smart enough to take to the skies. I’m smart enough not to follow: directly. I figure I might pursue it on the way out and continue inward (popping up for air now and then).
I detect the snake on mindsight. I charge it and miss (123.8% chance), hit it for 19.5, miss… ok you get the point. It can’t attack someone 10 feet away through stone, so it dies. Messily.
Wraith. I detect it on mindsight. It can go through walls. I can do so better. I miss it a lot. I hit it occasionally.
I’m not entirely sure about the size of the corridor at this point. If the corridor is wider than 10ft by 10 ft, the wraith can hover in the middle 10 ft up in the middle of the corridor, petrified in fear, readying an attack action +5ft step. It would probably miss, but the merchant wouldn’t risk it.
The merchant misses the rug on mindsight, but the Stoneflyer detects it on Tremor sense. More of the same: the rug dies.
The dragon. I hit it. It flies away. I start popping up and scooping treasure from it’s cave. It flies in. I whack at it.
I can’t kill it unless it’s suicidal (I can’t find the dimensions, I assume it can fly away. But I can take a fair portion of its treasure, or everything it can’t carry with it.
The merchant does the crypt more easily. The ghouls can’t fly and die. The stoneflyer detects the slime and we ignore them. Frick and Frack are skewered from below, lacking line of effect to attack them. The mummy dies just as surely. Same with Shadow.
Net Result: Bypass Manticore (Unless the manticore is foolish enough to keep on landing), dragon, and wraith (depending on size of corridors). Gets a fair bit of the dragons treasure. Defeats Crypt of Creepiness MK II
Flaws and traits improve every build, and I don't think casters or non-casters have a huge advantage when it comes to benefitting from more feats, or having a trait. However, since some of the builds use them, then you'd be a fool not to, as they do power-up a character. It's basically an arms race. If one person uses them, everyone else basically has to to keep up..
I'm refraining because I think flaws are stupid, especially when using out of box monster manual 1 critters and claiming CR's are the same. It's similar to my stance against excessive consumables, they warp the results.
My character would easily win both the rug and snake encounters if he had combat reflexes and close quarters combat, but I'd rather lose than take two flaws that harm the character not at all to get them. Normal Bela would still lose to the dragon though, I think, although with a rage left (the rug wouldn't need it) maybe he'd win.
Makes the fights he does win more of a victory, and makes me be more creative when he gets into trouble, even if in reality I chalk up a fight as a loss.
Assuming the druid is behind pouncy up to 30' when Pouncy senses the wraith.
Init
+9 v +7 (60/50) win
Druid readies charge
Pouncy backs up an arbitrary amount say 40' just cause. Wraith is 70' from Pouncy, 60' from the druid. (Could be up to 90' from Pouncy) says, "Whoa for some reason that thing really freaks me out, I don't want to get close!"
Wraith charges druid.
At 40' from Pouncy the druid charges the wraith.
Claw +13 v ac 13 (95/50) hit 12
Claw +13 v ac 13 (190/150) miss incorp
Bite +8 v ac 13 (270/250) hit 11
Rake +8 v ac 13 (350/350) miss incorp
Wraith provokes AOO closing with the druid
Claw +13 v ac13 (445/450) miss
Wraith - 9/32
Wraith touches druid
+3 v ac 12 (60/50) hit 2 damage fort save +10 v dc 14 (85/50) passed
Druid - 35/37
Druid backs up 5' and full attacks
Claw +11 v ac 15 (530/450) hit 12
Claw +11 (615/550) miss incorp
Bite +6 (675/650) hit 11
Wraith - -14/32
Obviously if Venomfire works on the wraith the wraith dies on the charge. If it doesn't work then it gets a single attack and gets mauled by the druid dino.
The druid simply outgrapples the rug now. Even if it hit with a grapple in the supprise round (which it doesn't) then it would lose the grapple check +19 v +21. If the druid was feeling really spunky he could simply wrestle the rug down and let Pouncy shred it. Instead though he simply full attacks, as does Pouncy. I'm pretty sure a single round of attacks will do it (remeber Venomfire works as per CS ruling) if not the rug gets another chance to grapple, it gets interruped as it eats 2 AOOs thanks to no imp grapple. If it just slams instead it misses.
End result, rug dead, druid uninjured.
This is the way the fight with the wraith goes if you use the version of the druid that has everything Meyer cried about taken out plus assume he is right about venomfire not working on the wraith.
Assuming the druid is behind pouncy up to 30' when Pouncy senses the wraith.
Init
+9 v +7 (60/50) win
Druid readies charge
Cannot ready a full-round action.
But yes, as it stands, per how you described the movement above, your Animal is never more than 30' away from you and you kill the wraith.
Your comment about the rug stands ... it cannot beat you as is. This build now beats everything in the first mini-adventure.
Care to adjust your summoner to win as well?
I have a non-caster submission.
The Merchant of Moscow
a.k.a “In Soviet Russia, Encounters bypass YOU!”
My father was a great adventurer. When he retired, he spent his life selling items recovered from dusty tombs and ancient temples. I helped with the business, but eventually his stories proved to alluring. Posessing a knack for the business, my work has been profitable.
A few months back I saw a live stoneflyer. A few extra coins burning in my pocket, I sold everything I had (save for my armor and, of course, my father's lance) I trained it myself, and since then, I've been clever enough that no foe has gotten a single blow off on me.
Ghostwise Halfling: Psychic Warrior 1, Fighter 4 (Although this technically may break the rules, I have 1 PP. I take catfall, a fairly useless power)
Yes, this breaks the rules.
I have no idea what the stoneflyer is nor that your radar is. I assume you have to have PPs to do this? Could you take the feat that gives you 2 PPS to do this? This would keep it more legal?
Someone else has already used the feat that allowed for power points to be able to power their concentration check.
I didn't actually spend any power points. I just needed to have them so that I would have a Psionic Focus, which you can use to "take 15" on a concentration check. Then it takes a full round action concentration check (DC 20) to regain the focus.
I guess technically the character is borderline illegal, since it used "psionics", but didn't use any psionic powers. I overlooked this when submitting it. Sorry about that. I don't know if it would matter. I didn't look at his average chance of succeeding on the check without it.
My radar is the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness, which when combined with the telepathy of ghostwise halfling with the feat Improved Speak without sounds (which requires ML 1), allows me to detect any non-mindless creature within 100 ft regardless of line of effect (being immune to mind-effecting affects doesn't block it). I also can tell their int score.
The single PP is not expended.
The ML is key (since this is the only way of getting telepathy without a larger investment in caster classes), even though in grants me next to no manifesting.
I didn't actually spend any power points. I just needed to have them so that I would have a Psionic Focus, which you can use to "take 15" on a concentration check. Then it takes a full round action concentration check (DC 20) to regain the focus.
I guess technically the character is borderline illegal, since it used "psionics", but didn't use any psionic powers. I overlooked this when submitting it. Sorry about that. I don't know if it would matter. I didn't look at his average chance of succeeding on the check without it.
No no no, you misunderstood.
Your character is legal, he does not use psionics (at least by my definition), he uses psionic feats. This is a caster/noncaster neutral.
Stoneflyer is a magical beast in Underdark that gets earthglide and the ability to pass that on to any rider. (And tremorsense and a fly speed) They can be bought as a mount
My radar is the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness, which when combined with the telepathy of ghostwise halfling with the feat Improved Speak without sounds (which requires ML 1), allows me to detect any non-mindless creature within 100 ft regardless of line of effect (being immune to mind-effecting affects doesn't block it). I also can tell their int score.
The single PP is not expended.
The ML is key (since this is the only way of getting telepathy without a larger investment in caster classes), even though in grants me next to no manifesting.
I will bow to consensus. I agree that no PPs are expended, but you do have a level in a psionics class.
Would being a race with psionics (and a ML level) qualify?
Flaws and traits improve every build, and I don't think casters or non-casters have a huge advantage when it comes to benefitting from more feats, or having a trait. However, since some of the builds use them, then you'd be a fool not to, as they do power-up a character. It's basically an arms race. If one person uses them, everyone else basically has to to keep up.
I don't think it is worth analyzing, as I don't think it gives more of an advantage to either group, though. Well... it would probably be of slightly less benefit to a single-classed fighter than to a martial cleric or druid, now that I think about it. But still, trying to tease that out would add another layer of complexity to an analysis that is already complicated enough. We should either just let everyone use them, or ban them across the board. Since everyone is already using them, this option is alot easier to implement.
I'm trying to keep folks mindful of our goal here. Showing an overpowered caster is the goal.
Showing a build based on rules errors and marginal interpretations shows nothing. Showing a build that relies on material that may not exist in many games is interesting, but not universally so. Showing a build that could exist in a normal game is much better. Showing a build that passes strict muster is best.
PAO demonstrates that when you use a high level spell effect at low levels, it creates powerful characters. This is what you would expect. Likewise, using tricks to gain feat combos 3-6 levels early produces more powerful characters. The substitute cost paid (a penalty to gain a feat) is far cheaper than the normal cost paid (3 levels). In addition, the cost paid is usually on something that the build does not value in order to gain something that the build does value.
Thus, a build based on flaws demonstrates the power of casters less well than a build that uses no flaws at all.
Does hidden talent give you a ML? If so, I could qualify that way (taking an extra flaw). Else, I think that there would be a consensus that my character isn't using manifesting in lieu of spellcasting. I would need to take feat rogue for the last level to get the feat for spirited charge.
Cannot ready a full-round action.
But yes, as it stands, per how you described the movement above, your Animal is never more than 30' away from you and you kill the wraith.
Your comment about the rug stands ... it cannot beat you as is. This build now beats everything in the first mini-adventure.
Care to adjust your summoner to win as well?
You can ready a partial charge, your movement ending in an attack, as a partial action.
I'll take a look at the summoner but the summoner doesn't really take off until 6th level without some sort of unusual tactics. Actually come to think of it I think I can make the summoner work but I'll have to sit down and buy items to do it.
At 6th both the druid builds get a massive boost in power due to natural spell. The summoner just flits along in bat form and drops angry greenbound wolverine bombs without ever being attacked. He probably wouldn't technically defeat the rug because he would never trigger it.
I'm trying to keep folks mindful of our goal here. Showing an overpowered caster is the goal.
Showing a build based on rules errors and marginal interpretations shows nothing. Showing a build that relies on material that may not exist in many games is interesting, but not universally so. Showing a build that could exist in a normal game is much better. Showing a build that passes strict muster is best.
PAO demonstrates that when you use a high level spell effect at low levels, it creates powerful characters. This is what you would expect. Likewise, using tricks to gain feat combos 3-6 levels early produces more powerful characters. The substitute cost paid (a penalty to gain a feat) is far cheaper than the normal cost paid (3 levels). In addition, the cost paid is usually on something that the build does not value in order to gain something that the build does value.
Thus, a build based on flaws demonstrates the power of casters less well than a build that uses no flaws at all.
The fleshraker druid build could easilly drop 2 feats without losing any signifigant effectiveness. Sure the extras are nice, but not a required part of any combo. Give up improved init and natural bond np. Or IUS and Imp Grapple for that matter.
Also, I would like to think that I'm pretty clever when it comes to item economy. Well... Except for buying fancy things like Darkweave. :P
The idea is that I'll get him examined and then run through the encounters. (Just making sure everything is legal and straightened out).
If people feel that he violates the rules (By using the feral template or something else) then I'll just not have it go through with it.
The only shaky bit I can see is the use of multiattack.
I mean, the unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon when used.
So, that plus two claws equals three natural weapons.
If not, the bite, when manifested could substitute for the third.
But that's up to you guys.
Show
Jin’Kas – Chaotic Neutral Feral Azurin Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Fighter 2
Stats: (uses the 25pt buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (received the 4th level increase)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Hitpoints: 46
Fort: +12
Ref: +4
Will: +2
Feats:
Trait: Aggressive
Trait: Plucky
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw: Shaky
1 Multiattack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Hidden Talent (Wolf’s Bite)
1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Girallon’s Arms)
3 Improved Multiattack
4 Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
5 Improved Initiative
Meldshaping:
Essentia: 3
Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms – Contains all the essentia, Bound to the totem chakra
Purple Worm Belt (+2 Natural Armor)
Landshark boots (+4 Jump)
Psionics:
Manifester Level: 1
Powerpoints: 2
Powers Known: Wolf’s Bite (Gain 1d8 bite attack, 1 min/level)
Maneuvers and stances:
Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance) (+1d6 damage per attack, -2 AC)
Steel Wind (Strike) (Attack twice as a standard action)
Tiger Claw:
Sudden Leap (Boost) (Jump as a swift action)
Devoted Spirit:
Martial Spirit (Stance) (Heal 2 points every hit)
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter) (Use Concentration instead of will-save)
Special attacks and qualities of note:
Movement: 40ft
2 Natural Claws (1d8 damage)
Improved Grab
Pounce
Darkvision 60 ft
Fast healing 3
Combat:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Primary attack routine: +7 (Unarmed Strike)
Secondary attack routine: +7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Full attack routine: +7/+7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Unarmed, Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Unarmed Strike Damage: 1d4+3
Claw damage: 2d6+4 and 1d6+4 (2 attacks of each size)
Bite: 1d8+1
Grapple: +13
Initiative: +6
AC: +21 (+4 Armor +0 Dex +8 Natural Armor -1 Aggressive)
Skills:
Concentration 11
Jump 14
Skill 5
Skill 5
Craft: Basketweaving 1
(These values reflect items, but not potions, soulmelds, essentia allocation and the manifestation of Wolf’s bite)
Items:
Ring of the Claw 6000gp – Custom item, grants INA (Claw)
Cognizance Ring (Custom Item, can store 3 power points) 2000gp (XPH/MIC)
Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp (DMG)
Vest of Resistance +1 1000gp (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp, MIC)
Healing Belt 750gp (MIC)
Darkweave Monks Outfit 105gp (Darkweave -> ECS)
2 Potions of invisibility (600gp, DMG)
2 Potions of Shield of Faith (+2, 100gp, DMG)
345gp left
Notes:
The ring that grants the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) is based on the Fanged ring. I gave myself a 4000 discount as it doesn't include improved unarmed strike. If this is too much or too little, do tell.
The cognizance ring is a cognizance stone that has been slotted, to reduce the price by half.
Stats: (uses the 25pt buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (received the 4th level increase)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Hitpoints: 46
Fort: +12
Ref: +4
Will: +2
Feats:
Trait: Aggressive
Trait: Plucky
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw: Shaky
1 Multiattack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Hidden Talent (Wolf’s Bite)
1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Girallon’s Arms)
3 Improved Multiattack
4 Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
5 Improved Initiative
Meldshaping:
Essentia: 3
Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms – Contains all the essentia, Bound to the totem chakra
Purple Worm Belt (+2 Natural Armor)
Landshark boots (+4 Jump)
Psionics:
Manifester Level: 1
Powerpoints: 2
Powers Known: Wolf’s Bite (Gain 1d8 bite attack, 1 min/level)
Maneuvers and stances:
Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance) (+1d6 damage per attack, -2 AC)
Steel Wind (Strike) (Attack twice as a standard action)
Tiger Claw:
Sudden Leap (Boost) (Jump as a swift action)
Devoted Spirit:
Martial Spirit (Stance) (Heal 2 points every hit)
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter) (Use Concentration instead of will-save)
Special attacks and qualities of note:
Movement: 40ft
2 Natural Claws (1d8 damage)
Improved Grab
Pounce
Darkvision 60 ft
Fast healing 3
Combat:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Primary attack routine: +7 (Unarmed Strike)
Secondary attack routine: +7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Full attack routine: +7/+7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Unarmed, Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Unarmed Strike Damage: 1d4+3
Claw damage: 2d6+4 and 1d6+4 (2 attacks of each size)
Bite: 1d8+1
Grapple: +13
Initiative: +6
AC: +21 (+4 Armor +0 Dex +8 Natural Armor -1 Aggressive)
Skills:
Concentration 11
Jump 14
Skill 5
Skill 5
Craft: Basketweaving 1
(These values reflect items, but not potions, soulmelds, essentia allocation and the manifestation of Wolf’s bite)
Items:
Ring of the Claw 6000gp – Custom item, grants INA (Claw)
Cognizance Ring (Custom Item, can store 3 power points) 2000gp (XPH/MIC)
Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp (DMG)
Vest of Resistance +1 1000gp (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp, MIC)
Healing Belt 750gp (MIC)
Darkweave Monks Outfit 105gp (Darkweave -> ECS)
2 Potions of invisibility (600gp, DMG)
2 Potions of Shield of Faith (+2, 100gp, DMG)
345gp left
Notes:
The ring that grants the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) is based on the Fanged ring. I gave myself a 4000 discount as it doesn't include improved unarmed strike. If this is too much or too little, do tell.
The cognizance ring is a cognizance stone that has been slotted, to reduce the price by half.
If you have no psionic class levels, you are considered a 1st level manifester when manifesting this power. If you have psionic class levels, you can manifest the power at the highest level you have attained. (This is not a manifester level, and it does not add to manifester levels gained by taking psionic classes.)
The wording leads me to believe that it doesn't. Sad, considering I end up being a better manifester with this feat than with a level in Psy-Warrior.
Mechanically there ends up being very little difference in the build. I get trapfinding and more skillpoints, an extra pp, and maybe a different power. I don't loose anything I wouldn't already get from fighter.
I honestly wouldn't mind seeing how a full blown psionicist would do in the competition, whether there are enough tricks to get them through or if the lack of equivalents to alterself and persistant buffs would put them at a disadvantage to real casters.
8: Can a Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?
Ok, slight issues with this question. The main point in my contention is that an intelligent creature capable of manipulating physical objects should be capable of putting on properly made armor for them. It is very clear that non-humanoid creatures can create and wear armor already.
I'd rephrase it to: "Can an awakened (as per the spell Awaken) Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?"
"I tolerate other's opinions as long as they aren't so grievously wrong that it is dangerous to let the ideas replicate without a rebuttal."
- chonjurer
Great quote. :D Whatever happened to that guy? I haven't seen him on here in ages, unless he changed his username or something.
Okay, so this is my contender. I have a little money left, and if someone could suggest what to do with it... do tell
Also, I would like to think that I'm pretty clever when it comes to item economy. Well... Except for buying fancy things like Darkweave. :P
The idea is that I'll get him examined and then run through the encounters. (Just making sure everything is legal and straightened out).
If people feel that he violates the rules (By using the feral template or something else) then I'll just not have it go through with it.
The only shaky bit I can see is the use of multiattack.
I mean, the unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon when used.
So, that plus two claws equals three natural weapons.
If not, the bite, when manifested could substitute for the third.
But that's up to you guys.ShowJin’Kas – Chaotic Neutral Feral Azurin Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Fighter 2
Stats: (uses the 25pt buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (received the 4th level increase)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Hitpoints: 46
Fort: +12
Ref: +4
Will: +2
Feats:
Trait: Aggressive
Trait: Plucky
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw: Shaky
1 Multiattack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Hidden Talent (Wolf’s Bite)
1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Girallon’s Arms)
3 Improved Multiattack
4 Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
5 Improved Initiative
Meldshaping:
Essentia: 3
Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms – Contains all the essentia, Bound to the totem chakra
Purple Worm Belt (+2 Natural Armor)
Landshark boots (+4 Jump)
Psionics:
Manifester Level: 1
Powerpoints: 2
Powers Known: Wolf’s Bite (Gain 1d8 bite attack, 1 min/level)
Maneuvers and stances:
Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance) (+1d6 damage per attack, -2 AC)
Steel Wind (Strike) (Attack twice as a standard action)
Tiger Claw:
Sudden Leap (Boost) (Jump as a swift action)
Devoted Spirit:
Martial Spirit (Stance) (Heal 2 points every hit)
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter) (Use Concentration instead of will-save)
Special attacks and qualities of note:
Movement: 40ft
2 Natural Claws (1d8 damage)
Improved Grab
Pounce
Darkvision 60 ft
Fast healing 3
Combat:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Primary attack routine: +7 (Unarmed Strike)
Secondary attack routine: +7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Full attack routine: +7/+7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Unarmed, Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Unarmed Strike Damage: 1d4+3
Claw damage: 2d6+4 and 1d6+4 (2 attacks of each size)
Bite: 1d8+1
Grapple: +13
Initiative: +6
AC: +21 (+4 Armor +0 Dex +8 Natural Armor -1 Aggressive)
Skills:
Concentration 11
Jump 14
Skill 5
Skill 5
Craft: Basketweaving 1
(These values reflect items, but not potions, soulmelds, essentia allocation and the manifestation of Wolf’s bite)
Items:
Ring of the Claw 6000gp – Custom item, grants INA (Claw)
Cognizance Ring (Custom Item, can store 3 power points) 2000gp (XPH/MIC)
Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp (DMG)
Vest of Resistance +1 1000gp (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp, MIC)
Healing Belt 750gp (MIC)
Darkweave Monks Outfit 105gp (Darkweave -> ECS)
2 Potions of invisibility (600gp, DMG)
2 Potions of Shield of Faith (+2, 100gp, DMG)
345gp left
Notes:
The ring that grants the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) is based on the Fanged ring. I gave myself a 4000 discount as it doesn't include improved unarmed strike. If this is too much or too little, do tell.
The cognizance ring is a cognizance stone that has been slotted, to reduce the price by half.
I have always thought Feral was overpowered at LA of only +1. And I am still not sure how your character is ECL 5. In savage species, wasn't it listed as CR +1 with no LA ever mentioned? Is it even appropriate for PCs? If it is, I would say it should be at least LA +2.
It is listed as LA +1 in Savage Species. I'm guessing he's using LA buyoff.
I have always thought Feral was overpowered at LA of only +1. And I am still not sure how your character is ECL 5. In savage species, wasn't it listed as CR +1 with no LA ever mentioned? Is it even appropriate for PCs? If it is, I would say it should be at least LA +2.
That character is ECL 6 with the LA+1. Therefore not valid for Meyer's standards (in page 1). And he is not using the elite array either.
That character is ECL 6 with the LA+1. Therefore not valid for Meyer's standards (in page 1). And he is not using the elite array either.
Wait I thought you could use the elite array if you wanted however you also had the option of going with a 28 point buy as well? I may need to make changes to my contestant otherwise depending on how that works out.
Elite Array - This is being reversed, casters can now use the 25 pt buy if they desire.
25 point buy.
Using the Faerie fire strategy I use a level 2 SNA on 3 fights and a level 3 SNA on the other two fights. Then I use faerie fire on 4 of the fights, probably all but the rug. Once the rug loses supprise its lack of imp grapple makes it a joke.
I guess I could buy some items also. Scrolls of faerie fire if nothing else.
EDIT: I would like to see a couple of alternate sets of monsters. It would make it harder to metagame the specific 5 encounters for one thing, and we could adopt a more meaningful sort of comparison. Like, completes 6/7 sets of monsters, fails set foo. Right now all the fights are held in a very small area and that reduces the viability of both caster and non-caster range. 3/5 fights are ambushes and one of them is completely unavoidable. That is not normal in my games, I don't know about anyone else.
Ok, slight issues with this question. The main point in my contention is that an intelligent creature capable of manipulating physical objects should be capable of putting on properly made armor for them. It is very clear that non-humanoid creatures can create and wear armor already.
I'd rephrase it to: "Can an awakened (as per the spell Awaken) Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?"
Per a previous post, the questions were sent in today at lunch (12:20 EST). When I get a response, I'll reply with this question to clarify #8.
You can ready a partial charge, your movement ending in an attack, as a partial action.
CHARGE
Show
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
EDIT: I would like to see a couple of alternate sets of monsters. It would make it harder to metagame the specific 5 encounters for one thing, and we could adopt a more meaningful sort of comparison. Like, completes 6/7 sets of monsters, fails set foo. Right now all the fights are held in a very small area and that reduces the viability of both caster and non-caster range. 3/5 fights are ambushes and one of them is completely unavoidable. That is not normal in my games, I don't know about anyone else.
There are multiple sets of encounters ... look at post 1 for the list of them.
It went away in 3.5, largely because people would move, then partial charge (readied or otherwise), allowing them to "turn corners".
Partial charge existed in 3.0.
It went away in 3.5, largely because people would move, then partial charge (readied or otherwise), allowing them to "turn corners".
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge
The sentence just above attacking on a charge.
The final BBEG is undefeatable by a warrior (or Bela anyway) without prior information and specific planning. Bela needs about 1000gp of consumables to execute the only plan he can think of to kill such a monster, he's given the name of the monster before the adventure. I also allocated remaining cash (495gp) to hiring a sage to tell me stuff that a warrior would care about regarding this monster (defenses vs melee, movement rates, typical terrain and size)
Anyway, modified kit that I'll likely use in future challenges because it leaves 1500gp free to customize for specific information about the adventure.
Hydra Hunting Bela, Level 5 Human Elite Array (statbump strength)
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 wis10 Cha 8
normal hp 43 saves F9 R3 W2 AC25 or 20
rage hp 58 saves F12 R3 W5 AC22 or 17
L1 Barbarian1 - extra rage, reckless rage
L1 Fighter1 - power attack
L2 Fighter2 - combat expertise, brutal throw
L4 Hexblade1 - Hexblade curse DC11
L5 Ranger1 - Tracking
Survival 12 (8 ranks)
Ride 10 (7 ranks, synergy)
Spellcraft 5 (4 ranks)
Handle Animal 4 (5 ranks)
Climb 5 (7 ranks, includes ACP-5)
Swim 0 (7 ranks, includes ACP-10)
Jump 0 (6 ranks, includes ACP-5, speed -4)
Wild Empathy 0
815 MW Blue Ice Longsword (frostburn +1 nonmagical enh to damage slashing)
....the real Bela actually owns this item, from real adventuring
320 MW Cold Iron Lance
0 Oak Club
12 6 cold iron javelins
2650 fullplate+1
350 mw armor spikes
1180 tower shield+1
400 400 heavy warhorse
34 34 saddle, saddlebags, bit, bridle
8 8 cold weather clothing
4 Backpack, 4d food, waterskin, bedroll, winter blanket
4.5 hammer, 10 pitons, 100' hemp rope, grapple hook
5 flint steel, crowbar, shovel
5 5 sunrods
20.5 alch fire and 5 flask oil
150 6 flask holy water
60 6 flask acid
50 tanglefoot bag
22 smokestick and 2 tindertwigs
750 wand clw
300 6 potions faith healing
100 oil bless weapon
50 oil shillelagh
50 oil magic stone
50 potion prot evil
50 potion enlarge person
Bought explicitly for the BBEG
250 Elixir of Sneaking
50 Oil of magic weapon
300 Potion of Bull's Strength
300 Potion of Aid
50 Potion of Guidance
5 Longspear
110 continual flame cast on a sling bullet
60gp spell, 50gp material comp
495 sage to tell me how to kill hydra
9000
I did this adventure without any foreknowledge of future challenges...it was more fun that way. Ie, I opened player info, then part 1, did part 1, moved to part2 etc. I must say I was surprised a couple times. I rate this as Bela
convincingly wins part 1, 2 and 5, with 3 and 4 probably rated as "tie". 3 and 4 are close enough that a swing of the dice, especially part 3 can tip it either way.
Most of these are long. Bela doesn't kill things quickly when in "turtle" mode.
The fight against the BBEG is more how he usually operates...little armor,
2h weapons and big damage that kills the other guy before he's killed. But
he tunes his behavior to what the party needs, and a solo party needs AC
when exploring. Light infantry is not a tactic for the unknown unless you're
a lot better at winning initiative/avoiding surprise than Bela is.
Other changes from last time:
1. init rolls, save throws and skill checks all get their own dice pools
2. Bela's attack roll stuff carries over from fight to fight
3. If there are multiple enemies they get their own dice pools, except
for init on things like rider/mount or equivalent.
part1
Show
Information says there is a shaman riding a celestial lion. I better
prepare for a cavalry battle where my horse is targeted.
Horse gets a mage armor potion 30 minutes from the cave. Bela takes 10 with animal handling to set it to "guard Bela".
bugbear/griffon get surprise, as Bela can't spot anything 250' away if they have cover or concealment and assume the cave provides such.
Griffon gets airborne, 30' up, 200' away, bugbear is too far away to throw javelin
initiative bugbear/Griffon get +1, Bela/Horse +0 so init pool 55%
Griffon still too far to charge, so moves up to 60' up/150' away and bugbear readies to throw javelin.
Bela obliges by riding 50' closer and drawing tanglefoot bag and ready to throw if Griffen gets within 20'
Do 3 rounds of bugbear doing passes at 30' throwing javelins, griffen going half move , once at Bela, the rest at horse
Bugbear +3 vs AC25 miss 5% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear +3 vs AC18 miss 30% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear +3 vs AC18 hit horse 5 hp 60% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear switches to mornstar, and he and his griffon charge
Bela ready goes off, throws at -2 range increment (+7 vs AC15) hits 60%
Griffon saves +7 vs DC15 60%, so doesn't crash, but can't continue charge because movement is slowed
Griffon lands near Bela..the bugbear can still attack and goes for horse (+6 vs 18) miss 105%
move action to order horse to attack griffon (+4 vs dc12 65% on skill pool) succeeds
horse attacks griffon on its own dice pool. 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (120%) 1hit 7hp bite +1 vs 15 (155%) hit 5hp
autosucceed fight on horseback. Draw sword and slash griffon
5' step horse back and attack with lance +8 vs ac15 miss (130%)
bela hexblade curses the bugbear +1 vs dc11 and it fails (105%) -2 to atk/dmg/saves
bugbear 16 Griffon 47e4 bela 43 horse 25
bugbear has no slashing weapon and the griffon is int 5 or something so
the goo stays. Bugbear also lacks ride ranks to fight on horseback
so he dismounts, 5' forward and attacks horse (+3 vs AC18) miss 135%
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela (+8 vs AC15) hit for 7 200%
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 hits (60%) for 11
horse attacks griffon . 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (275%) 1hit 7hp bite +1 vs 15 (310%) miss
5' step horse back and attack with lance +8 vs ac15 hit for 8 (270%)
bugbear 16, griffon 25e3 bela 43 horse 14
bugbear goes for horse +3 vs AC18 hits (165%) for 5
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela miss 340%
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 miss (120%)
horse attacks griffon . 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (395%) 1hit 8hp bite +1 vs 15 (330%) miss
bela 5', stabs with lance +8 vs ac15 hit for 7 (410%)
bugbear 16 Griffon 10e2 Bela 43 horse 9
bugbear goes for horse +3 vs AC18 miss (195%)
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela hit for 8 (480%)
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 hit for 11 (180%). Horse drops
bela ride check [+10 vs 15] 145%...fails and takes 4 damage, prone, out of enemy reach
drop lance, stand up, ready to stab griffon with armor spikes
bugbear 16 Griffon 2e1 Bela 39 horse -2
bugbear runs around to flank, attacks to aid +3 vs ac10 succeeds 265
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers ready from Bela miss (545%)
griffon attacks with entangle, flank and aid +13 vs ac25 miss(225%)
bugbear 16 Griffon 2 Bela 39 horse -3
bugbear attacks to aid +3 vs ac10 fails 335
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (600%) doing 8, griffon drops
bugbear16 griffon -6 Bela 39 horse -5 (295%)
bugbear steps back and coup de grace's horse, killing it
bela 5' stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (655%) doing 9
bugbear8 griffon -7 Bela 39 horse dead
bugbear attacks +3 vs ac25 fails 340
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 miss (710%)
bugbear8 griffon -8 Bela 39 horse dead
bugbear attacks +3 vs ac25 fails 345
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (765%) for 9 drop bugbear
bugbear -1, griffon -9 bela 39 horse dead
Bela thinks hard about stabilizing the griffon and trying
to convince it to be his mount, decides he's not up to it
and instead heals himself. Bela butchers the horse for food,
loots the bugbear's body and buries anything he can't carry.
He takes the longspear and lance and stashes them inside
the cave, intending to move them forward as he clears each
new area.
resoruces: clw charge, horse, tanglefoot bag, hexblade curse
this is a clear win for Bela...the attack rolls are not high
enough to threaten Bela, which is why the horse was the
main focus of attack. Had they focused on Bela, they
would have done very little and the horse would have killed
them much faster.
Information says there is a shaman riding a celestial lion. I better
prepare for a cavalry battle where my horse is targeted.
Horse gets a mage armor potion 30 minutes from the cave. Bela takes 10 with animal handling to set it to "guard Bela".
bugbear/griffon get surprise, as Bela can't spot anything 250' away if they have cover or concealment and assume the cave provides such.
Griffon gets airborne, 30' up, 200' away, bugbear is too far away to throw javelin
initiative bugbear/Griffon get +1, Bela/Horse +0 so init pool 55%
Griffon still too far to charge, so moves up to 60' up/150' away and bugbear readies to throw javelin.
Bela obliges by riding 50' closer and drawing tanglefoot bag and ready to throw if Griffen gets within 20'
Do 3 rounds of bugbear doing passes at 30' throwing javelins, griffen going half move , once at Bela, the rest at horse
Bugbear +3 vs AC25 miss 5% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear +3 vs AC18 miss 30% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear +3 vs AC18 hit horse 5 hp 60% Bela moves 50' closer to cave, readied
Bugbear switches to mornstar, and he and his griffon charge
Bela ready goes off, throws at -2 range increment (+7 vs AC15) hits 60%
Griffon saves +7 vs DC15 60%, so doesn't crash, but can't continue charge because movement is slowed
Griffon lands near Bela..the bugbear can still attack and goes for horse (+6 vs 18) miss 105%
move action to order horse to attack griffon (+4 vs dc12 65% on skill pool) succeeds
horse attacks griffon on its own dice pool. 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (120%) 1hit 7hp bite +1 vs 15 (155%) hit 5hp
autosucceed fight on horseback. Draw sword and slash griffon
5' step horse back and attack with lance +8 vs ac15 miss (130%)
bela hexblade curses the bugbear +1 vs dc11 and it fails (105%) -2 to atk/dmg/saves
bugbear 16 Griffon 47e4 bela 43 horse 25
bugbear has no slashing weapon and the griffon is int 5 or something so
the goo stays. Bugbear also lacks ride ranks to fight on horseback
so he dismounts, 5' forward and attacks horse (+3 vs AC18) miss 135%
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela (+8 vs AC15) hit for 7 200%
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 hits (60%) for 11
horse attacks griffon . 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (275%) 1hit 7hp bite +1 vs 15 (310%) miss
5' step horse back and attack with lance +8 vs ac15 hit for 8 (270%)
bugbear 16, griffon 25e3 bela 43 horse 14
bugbear goes for horse +3 vs AC18 hits (165%) for 5
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela miss 340%
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 miss (120%)
horse attacks griffon . 2xhoof +6 vs 15 (395%) 1hit 8hp bite +1 vs 15 (330%) miss
bela 5', stabs with lance +8 vs ac15 hit for 7 (410%)
bugbear 16 Griffon 10e2 Bela 43 horse 9
bugbear goes for horse +3 vs AC18 miss (195%)
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers AOO from Bela hit for 8 (480%)
griffen goes for horse +9 vs AC18 hit for 11 (180%). Horse drops
bela ride check [+10 vs 15] 145%...fails and takes 4 damage, prone, out of enemy reach
drop lance, stand up, ready to stab griffon with armor spikes
bugbear 16 Griffon 2e1 Bela 39 horse -2
bugbear runs around to flank, attacks to aid +3 vs ac10 succeeds 265
griffon can not 5' step, moves in on horse, suffers ready from Bela miss (545%)
griffon attacks with entangle, flank and aid +13 vs ac25 miss(225%)
bugbear 16 Griffon 2 Bela 39 horse -3
bugbear attacks to aid +3 vs ac10 fails 335
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (600%) doing 8, griffon drops
bugbear16 griffon -6 Bela 39 horse -5 (295%)
bugbear steps back and coup de grace's horse, killing it
bela 5' stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (655%) doing 9
bugbear8 griffon -7 Bela 39 horse dead
bugbear attacks +3 vs ac25 fails 340
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 miss (710%)
bugbear8 griffon -8 Bela 39 horse dead
bugbear attacks +3 vs ac25 fails 345
bela stab with sword +7 vs ac17 hit (765%) for 9 drop bugbear
bugbear -1, griffon -9 bela 39 horse dead
Bela thinks hard about stabilizing the griffon and trying
to convince it to be his mount, decides he's not up to it
and instead heals himself. Bela butchers the horse for food,
loots the bugbear's body and buries anything he can't carry.
He takes the longspear and lance and stashes them inside
the cave, intending to move them forward as he clears each
new area.
resoruces: clw charge, horse, tanglefoot bag, hexblade curse
this is a clear win for Bela...the attack rolls are not high
enough to threaten Bela, which is why the horse was the
main focus of attack. Had they focused on Bela, they
would have done very little and the horse would have killed
them much faster.
EDIT: I would like to see a couple of alternate sets of monsters. It would make it harder to metagame the specific 5 encounters for one thing, and we could adopt a more meaningful sort of comparison. Like, completes 6/7 sets of monsters, fails set foo. Right now all the fights are held in a very small area and that reduces the viability of both caster and non-caster range. 3/5 fights are ambushes and one of them is completely unavoidable. That is not normal in my games, I don't know about anyone else.
The set-up: You have discovered information about a pocket dimension that currently has no owners. Centuries ago, the owner/creator was attacked and used the power of the plane, plus his own sacrifice to defeat an interloper.
You've discovered a way to enter the plain, but there are 5 tests that you must complete to gain sole possession of the pocket plane. You have no idea what those tests are.
There is a clue translated from an ancient, and dead, language. By rough estimations, the clue is as follows:
Four realms in one
Four seasons are done
To master this realm
Defeat the twisted one.
You activate the portal, and after a brief moment of vertigo, the portal snaps shut behind you, leaving the smell of ozone in the air. You find yourself in a field of grasses and wildflowers as songbirds flit past overhead. In the distance, you see the boundary of the realm, 1/2 mile distance across a grassy plain with a few rocky outcroppings and some acacia trees. To your left, you see an orchard, though the fruit and leaves have already fallen. To your right, you see a forest, with several small animals moving about. Behind you you notice two things. First is the black basalt building roughly 60 ft. away that appears to be about 100 ft. in diameter. Beyond the building you see snow-covered hills dotted with pine and other evergreens.
The building is roughly 20 ft. tall, and you see two doors from your vantage point.
The entire realm is 1 mile in diameter. Each of the four areas described above are divided by a path that leads near the building.
Exploring the realm reveals no threats or combatants. If you attempt to rest and recover (in order to face the challenge fully prepped), you'll be dumped into a random encounter while sleeping.
The doors to the building have no locks, and each one is a different color.
The Green Door (#1) faces the forest.
The White Door (#2) faces the snow-covered hills.
The Red Door (#3) faces the orchard.
The Blue Door (#4) faces the open plains.
Behind each door is a 'pie-slice' shaped room, except the inside wall is concentric to the outside of the building. Each room has its walls, floor and ceiling painted to match the quadrant of the realm it faces. The far inside wall has a colored door with four locks; one green, one white, one red, one blue.
If you attempt to open the interior door, it fades from your grasp, as does the rest of the room. You find yourself in a wilderness environment similar to the motif of the room, except much more exaggerated and harsh. The forest is a steamy jungle, complete with biting insects and sweltering heat. The snow covered hills are frigid, the snow is 18 inches deep (no balance check required), and the wind howls past. The plains are baking under a glaring sun. The orchard is complete with a cold, drenching fall rain.
Editor's note: I've rolled randomly to determine the length of time after opening an inner door and when the monster attacks. For the purposes of this thread, I'm just going to assign a number of rounds for the monster, while a real campaign might play out differently depending upon the actions of the party of PCs.
Green Door - Jungle: It is day time, 12 rounds after entering...
Make a DC 27 (take 10, +8 Hide, +9 distance) Spot check to notice the 2x Forest Trolls (MM3) hiding 90 ft. away. If you make the check, no surprise round, if not, they throw a javelin on the surprise round. The trolls are standing only 20 ft. apart, and in a position that the undergrowth doesn't hinder their movement, nor yours.
The Trolls:
Medium Giant
HD: 5d8 (47)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
AC: 18
Touch: 13
FF: 15
BAB: +3
Grp: +6
Atk: CLAW +6 (1d4+3 plus poison), claw +6 (1d4+3 + poison), bite +1 (1d4+1
Ranged: Javelin +6 (1d6+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
SA: Poison (DC 17, 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con)
SQ: Darkvision 90 ft., LLV, Scent, Fast Healing 5
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +1
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 6
Climb +11, Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5
Improved Initiative, Track
Medium Giant
HD: 5d8 (47)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
AC: 18
Touch: 13
FF: 15
BAB: +3
Grp: +6
Atk: CLAW +6 (1d4+3 plus poison), claw +6 (1d4+3 + poison), bite +1 (1d4+1
Ranged: Javelin +6 (1d6+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
SA: Poison (DC 17, 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con)
SQ: Darkvision 90 ft., LLV, Scent, Fast Healing 5
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +1
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 6
Climb +11, Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5
Improved Initiative, Track
Thanks Otto, I'll give it a go later. I think the min/level buffs will fall off but Venomfire, Animal Growth, GMF etc will last. Enlarge person potion will fall but thats why he carries a bunch.
Doesn't this say you can only do a partial charge in certain instances, of which readying an action is not one of them?
Well you know, it would be pretty stupid if you could only ready a partial charge when you are hindered somehow (Oh, I need to ready a partial charge. Let me punch myself in the face till I'm staggered!). If you guys want to run with it that way, I guess we will, though.
I do agree that you probably shouldn't be able to move and then ready a partial charge, though. Meh...
For the manticore fight he approaches under the cover of the smoke and summons a Dire bat, bat can see just fine, manticore cant. Bat charges, grapples the manticore when it tries to move away causing both to crash land. Manticore spikes but does 0 damage thanks to dr. Both creatures fall from the sky and take damage, say an 80' fall. Bat drops wall of thorns on its head (I'm assuming that grappling in a wall of thorns does damage just like trying to move in it) manticore takes damage from the thorns immediately and then takes more damage trying to escape the grapple. Dead manticore.
Bat dismisses the wall and tears off down the hall, at most it should take it 3 rounds to find the snake. It sees the snake first and charges, they exchange bites and the druid hearing the battle summons up a lion. Bat gets grappled, then breaks free. Lion charges, snake dies. Bat and lion take off, find wraith.
Wraith gets init, touches bat no damage. Lion charges, bat attacks, wraith dies. Bat duration elapses.
Lion charges into rug room. Rug grapples, fails as the lion is a better grappler. Lion full attacks, druid summons second lion. Together the two lions shred the rug.
Lions run into dragon room, tremorsense means there is no supprise. Lions win init, charge, dragon breaths, lightly singes lion but is grappled. One lions duration elapses. The other lion reduces the dragon to 1 hp, dragon gives up or is killed.
nitpick 1. Why don't the monsters attack the druid instead? Well the druid is in a 200' radius cloud of smoke. They can TRY to find him, but while they do the greenbound animals will be shredding them. Remeber the greenbound animals have tremorsense so they know where the druid and any enemies that enter the cloud are at all times.
nitpick 2. That is only ~25 rounds. Yeah so? The distances given are quite small, I assumed that 2-3 rounds of movement were used to progress between encounters. The summons just run ahead full speed if there isn't something to fight, who cares if they get ambushed or fall into pits etc.
Its pretty dumb to not be able to ready a charge if thats the only thing you do though. They should have just made it like a 5' step, you can either move or do a 5' step, you can either move OR ready a charge.
"spook" the gray elf wizard 5 (conjurer with immediate magic [abrupt jaunt]) evocation and enchantment banned
Str 8
Dex 16 (14+2)
Con 11 (13-2)
Int 18 (15+3)
Wis 10
Cha 12
BAB/Grapple: +2/+1
AC: 13(10+3 dex)
Hit Points: 14 (4+10+0)
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +4
Feats: Improved Initiaitive, Extend Spell , Scribe Scroll, Sudden Maximize
Skills: concentration 8, spellcraft 2, bluff 4 +1, diplomacy 4+1, move silently 4+3, sense motive 4,
Equipment (total wealth 8985 gp): Lesser metamagic rod of extend 3000 gp, silk rope 10 gp, hewards handy haversack 2000 gp, healing belt 750 gp, scroll invisability X2 450 gp, scrolls of summon swarm X2 450gp, scrolls of remove scent X4 100 gp,
spells added to spell book:
feather fall 125 gp, alter self 350 gp, bears undurances 350 gp, foxs cunning 350 gp, false life 350 gp, spectral hand 350 gp rope trick 350 gp
spells known
1rst
nerve skitter, remove scent,protection from evil, obscuring mist, summon monster 1, true strike, expeditious retreat. magic weapon, feather fall,
2nd
invisability, summon swarm, life bolt, chain of eyes, alter self, bears endurances, foxs cunning, rope trick, false life, spectral hand 2100
3rd
summon monster 3, shivering touch
Spells prepared: subject to change depending on tactics
1st: nerve skitter, true strike, remove scent, feather fall, summon monster 1
2nd: bear endurance, summon swarm, chain of eyes, rope trick
3rd: extended invisability, shivering touch, summon monster 3
Tactics and summary: Most of the time he will be invisable. standard method of overcoming encounters is to cast summon swarm and concentrate untill the enemy is dead. the enemy can't find him and can't kill the swarm so he wins by default. anything that this wont work on he uses a high intiative, abrupt jaunt or foresight of what hes facing from a fiendish Hawk with chain of eyes on it. he has a fairly sizeable collection of spells and can use rope trick + hewards fortifying bedroll to swap out spells relatively quickly. Some of the encounters require more complex tactics and I will go over them in a later post.
My Attempts at the Challenges
I can summon 2-5 wolves that can each cast wall of thorns?
God that is stupid. No wonder it crops up here so much
That said, there are problems with the tactics.
1. bats have blindsense, not blindsight. It is affected by the smoke and will have 50% miss chances. Delays mean you have to summon more stuff and may eventually run out of spell slots.
2. the bats are still animal intelligence. Greenbound template doesn't give it intelligence, just charisma and physical stats. It is no longer an animal, so speak with animals won't work. Do you have speak with plants running? It certainly isn't going to know to do something bizzare like grappling a manticore and it won't know when to drop the wall of thorns if you can't communicate.
3. If the bat fails to grapple the manticore (likely, manticores are size large and pretty strong too, even with the +6 str and +4 grapple bonus greenbound get and you include the miss chance for touch attack) why in the world would not the manticore just take off until the smoke goes away? That's a victory of sorts, until it eats the spell depleted druid on the way out when you finally cork the bottle on the way back to town.
4. Faerie fire eliminates concealment miss chances but it doesn't eliminate "you lose line of sight entirely if there is 5' of smoke between you and anything else". So it might help if it is 5' away, and thus work well with bats. It won't help on anything further away in that smoke. I'm not sure though...eversmoking bottle is like sleet storm not like fog. It blocks all sight, period. Faerie fire doesn't do anything if the person is effectively blind.
Look...I think you are on to something here because the greenbound template is utterly and completely broken - maybe less so if it wasn't available for the cost of a feat without affecting the level of summon you can do, but it is way powerful...the only limit being duration.
It should be powerful enough that you don't need to have grappling bats and faerie fire in fog. Just use the eversmoking bottle to protect your location and send in the greenbound stuff straight up. Very little can hurt them in the first challenge.
Why can't the dragon just stay flying out of reach of the lions and wait out the summons? When a bunch of topiary lions show up, it doesn't take ranks in spellcraft to figure they're likely summoned. A potion of prot (alignment) in the dragon's treasure would also kind of hose this tactic.
). Heck the dragon itself could just ignore the summoned swarms or plants and fly through his own cave complex faster than anything that is likely to be summoned until he finds the caster. (ok, not so much when wall of thorns is there, but...) The second CR5 dungeon will need different tactics than the stuff here that relies on small distances and short duration buffs. The crypt has a minute+ between each encounter too, so 5 round summons aren't going to be handling multiple encounters.
Or to put it another way. We want to SEE those complex tactics. Part of the fun of this is seeing how somebody beats challenges not as well suited to their approach. Even if some of us with less cheese are reduced to hunting for bunnies to feed to the nasty grapplemonsters
. I think I get how Spook works, for example, but I'd like to see it actually played.The one that killed him...not a CR problem as such. Read the section, I'm not sure I should be bitter and spew spoilers here on the other challenges as I've been finding it more fun to play them without knowing what comes next.
As a rule, undead are pretty easy for Bela if he knows that's the challenge. Magic stones, high aC and decent saves cover most worries.
Here's how he approached it.
Use Hydra Hunting Bela's equipment with cont light sling bullet moved into main equipment
That leaves 10gp to throw a party before he leaves, and 1500gp of equipment
specific to this adventure.
750 Wand of prot evil (hexblade) Will recast whenever it runs out
Prot evil is a cloak of prot+2 and ring deflection+2
for everything in an undead crypt, not to mention
help against weird undead mental powers and cleric spells
150 3 potions remove fear.
50 potion antitoxin
50 potion mage armor for the incorporeals
500 10xoil of magic stone.
as a rule, will keep 7-9 stones active at any time
total: 1500
AC is 27, incorporeal touch 17
saves vs evil +11 fort +5 reflex +4 will
poison save +16 Fear save +8
Entrance
Show
Entrance
crack sunrod (6 hour)
1 potion mage armor (1 hour)
1 antitoxin (1 hour)
3 oil magic stone (9 total 30 minutes, 2xdmg undead)
1 potion remove fear (10 minutes)
1 charge prot evil wand as enters
comment on clue "Damn, all the loot is at the end"
Entrance
crack sunrod (6 hour)
1 potion mage armor (1 hour)
1 antitoxin (1 hour)
3 oil magic stone (9 total 30 minutes, 2xdmg undead)
1 potion remove fear (10 minutes)
1 charge prot evil wand as enters
comment on clue "Damn, all the loot is at the end"
Its pretty dumb to not be able to ready a charge if thats the only thing you do though. They should have just made it like a 5' step, you can either move or do a 5' step, you can either move OR ready a charge.
No argument, it is a little weird. Might have been easier to ban it than to try to make an airtight rule though. I don't think they wanted you doing move-equivalents before a charge either. (eg, a prone guy stands up and readies a charge...)
One of the main things that limits pounce builds is the difficulty of setting up a charge, and that is doubly true when the companion and druid are both attempting it. Druids have a lot of advantages in this respect, but not so much in a cave environment until they get air walk and to some extent freedom of movement (outdoors woodland stride is terrific though). Slopes require balance checks to charge too, which can limit many animals (and druids with no ranks in balance)
One thing I do with my character is use a bat companion, to charge first and draw the AOO, but 5' higher than my character charges, so we don't get in each other's way. The bat is actually a bluff, it looks bigger and more dangerous but the druid does the damage. Your setup is not at all the same and companion spellbond lets you really get a lot more out of shared buffs.
(of course my char is more feat limited, as we didn't have flaws. If we did I'd have shock trooper now, at char CL8 rather than having to wait till level 9)
spells added to spell book:
summon monster 1 25 gp, true strike 25 gp, silent image 25 gp, disguise self 25 gp, expeditious retreat 25 gp, enlarge person 25 gp magic weapon 25 gp, feather fall 25 gp, mirror image 150 gp, alter self 150 gp, bears undurances 150 gp, foxs cunning 150 gp, false life 150 gp, spectral hand 150 gp, cats grace 150 gp, rope trick 150 gp, fly 375 gp, shivering touch 375 gp
I'm sorry but adding spells to your spellbook isn't that cheap. You have to pay 100 gold for page, and each spell takes 1 page per level.
So we have 8x100+8x200+2x300=3000gp.
Do you have all the money for this and your equipment?
I'm sorry but adding spells to your spellbook isn't that cheap. You have to pay 100 gold for page, and each spell takes 1 page per level.
So we have 8x100+8x200+2x300=3000gp.
Do you have all the money for this and your equipment?
unless they are the ones you get for free:
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.
:D
I should have adjusted the tactics a bunch though. For instance, the Griffon should stay within 30' of the entrance with the Bugbear hiding. This is a far better tactic for both of them, and lets the Griffon act more on it's own rather than being burdened with a dumb bugbear trying to ride it. I specified the sight range as being 250', but should have mentioned that it's more in the Griffon's interest to stay closer to the entrance.
The room for the Hydra was just a little too big, and the corridors just a little too small. I meant for it to be able to go the whole way out, incase someone managed to control it and could make it go through eating everything else. I also spaced it on it's lack of a ranged threat. I was thinking more for the CR6 Cryohydra, which would have covered that deficiency with it's breath weapon.
Oh well. The real problem was that I didn't want to advance any of the monsters, as that would have made it a lot more complicated. But the right feats here and there can really add a lot to the challenge. Not to mention re-equiping them with better alternatives.
Since the CR5 version seemed pretty easy for most contestants to finish, and some have made it through the CR6 crypt, someone should take a stab at the CR6 and see if it's worth a damn.
*EDIT* Wtf carnivore. How can they be the spells gained for free at that level if they're scrolls he bought to scribe into his spellbook?
*EDIT* Wtf carnivore. How can they be the spells gained for free at that level if they're scrolls he bought to scribe into his spellbook?
opps... wasnt paying attention
:D
opps... wasnt paying attention
:D
Yeah, you noticed my coment, but didn't noticed a 5th level wizard had 8 2nd level spells plus some 3rd level spells for "free"...
No wonder casters are so overpowered. People keep misreading them.:P
Otto, what CR is this supposed to be?
Chraal - CR 6
Boneclaw - CR 5
Dread Blossom Swarm - CR 6
2x Forest Troll - CR 6
I figure with the environment, and time factor, it should still be ok as is. I'm building the BBEG as CR 6 as well. I just ran into a little snag with it yesterday and had to scrap some work on it.
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Whether it's treated as an actual adventure, or the entrants just bolt straight for the building to preserve their short duration buffs.
Edit: One thing I'm going to go add is that the PC cannot rest and recover during the adventure to face each challenge fully prepped. Anyone that does that will end up being dumped into the encounter while sleeping; i.e., prone, no buffs, no armor (or if they do, then they're fatigued), etc.
Okay, so this is my contender. I have a little money left, and if someone could suggest what to do with it... do tell
Also, I would like to think that I'm pretty clever when it comes to item economy. Well... Except for buying fancy things like Darkweave. :P
The idea is that I'll get him examined and then run through the encounters. (Just making sure everything is legal and straightened out).
If people feel that he violates the rules (By using the feral template or something else) then I'll just not have it go through with it.
The only shaky bit I can see is the use of multiattack.
I mean, the unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon when used.
So, that plus two claws equals three natural weapons.
If not, the bite, when manifested could substitute for the third.
But that's up to you guys.ShowJin’Kas – Chaotic Neutral Feral Azurin Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Fighter 2
Stats: (uses the 25pt buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (received the 4th level increase)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Hitpoints: 46
Fort: +12
Ref: +4
Will: +2
Feats:
Trait: Aggressive
Trait: Plucky
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw: Shaky
1 Multiattack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Hidden Talent (Wolf’s Bite)
1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Girallon’s Arms)
3 Improved Multiattack
4 Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
5 Improved Initiative
Meldshaping:
Essentia: 3
Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms – Contains all the essentia, Bound to the totem chakra
Purple Worm Belt (+2 Natural Armor)
Landshark boots (+4 Jump)
Psionics:
Manifester Level: 1
Powerpoints: 2
Powers Known: Wolf’s Bite (Gain 1d8 bite attack, 1 min/level)
Maneuvers and stances:
Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance) (+1d6 damage per attack, -2 AC)
Steel Wind (Strike) (Attack twice as a standard action)
Tiger Claw:
Sudden Leap (Boost) (Jump as a swift action)
Devoted Spirit:
Martial Spirit (Stance) (Heal 2 points every hit)
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter) (Use Concentration instead of will-save)
Special attacks and qualities of note:
Movement: 40ft
2 Natural Claws (1d8 damage)
Improved Grab
Pounce
Darkvision 60 ft
Fast healing 3
Combat:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Primary attack routine: +7 (Unarmed Strike)
Secondary attack routine: +7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Full attack routine: +7/+7/+10/+10/+10/+10 (Unarmed, Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw)
Unarmed Strike Damage: 1d4+3
Claw damage: 2d6+4 and 1d6+4 (2 attacks of each size)
Bite: 1d8+1
Grapple: +13
Initiative: +6
AC: +21 (+4 Armor +0 Dex +8 Natural Armor -1 Aggressive)
Skills:
Concentration 11
Jump 14
Skill 5
Skill 5
Craft: Basketweaving 1
(These values reflect items, but not potions, soulmelds, essentia allocation and the manifestation of Wolf’s bite)
Items:
Ring of the Claw 6000gp – Custom item, grants INA (Claw)
Cognizance Ring (Custom Item, can store 3 power points) 2000gp (XPH/MIC)
Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp (DMG)
Vest of Resistance +1 1000gp (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp, MIC)
Healing Belt 750gp (MIC)
Darkweave Monks Outfit 105gp (Darkweave -> ECS)
2 Potions of invisibility (600gp, DMG)
2 Potions of Shield of Faith (+2, 100gp, DMG)
345gp left
Notes:
The ring that grants the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) is based on the Fanged ring. I gave myself a 4000 discount as it doesn't include improved unarmed strike. If this is too much or too little, do tell.
The cognizance ring is a cognizance stone that has been slotted, to reduce the price by half.
This character is for the second CR5 challenge, using the information available to the player. I like the second CR5 challenge better, as it doesn't allow uberbuffing with 10 minutes of short duration buffs for the win. It does allow 10min/level duration buffs but only if you metagame or somehow learn that the distances aren't as far as the townspeople said.
The final BBEG is undefeatable by a warrior (or Bela anyway) without prior information and specific planning. Bela needs about 1000gp of consumables to execute the only plan he can think of to kill such a monster, he's given the name of the monster before the adventure. I also allocated remaining cash (495gp) to hiring a sage to tell me stuff that a warrior would care about regarding this monster (defenses vs melee, movement rates, typical terrain and size)
Anyway, modified kit that I'll likely use in future challenges because it leaves 1500gp free to customize for specific information about the adventure.
I really really dislike changing equipment between fights. (Except for changing out the prot acid for something else). Would this guy, using this set of equipment, have been able to beat the other set of encounters?
Exploring the realm reveals no threats or combatants. If you attempt to rest and recover (in order to face the challenge fully prepped), you'll be dumped into a random encounter while sleeping.
What do you mean by "rest and recover"? Rather, is that the same as "sleep", or does it mean that waiting to heal up (fast healing 1) is not allowed?
The forest is a steamy jungle, complete with biting insects and sweltering heat. The snow covered hills are frigid, the snow is 18 inches deep (no balance check required)
Any environmental affects we need to be aware of (subdual damage, etc)?
Is the 18 inches of snow considered hampered movement?
Boneclaw:
Large Undead
Space/Reach: 10 ft. / 20 ft.
SA: Reaching Claws (claw has 20 ft. reach)
SQ: Unholy Toughness (HD x Cha mod bonus hit points)
Large Undead
Space/Reach: 10 ft. / 20 ft.
SA: Reaching Claws (claw has 20 ft. reach)
SQ: Unholy Toughness (HD x Cha mod bonus hit points)
Using the eversmoking bottle the summoner looks to work just fine. He first uncorks it when he sees the manticore and never recorks it.
Please update your build with this piece of equipment.
Eversmoking Bottle:
Show
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, pyrotechnics; Price 5,400 gp;Weight 1 lb.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, pyrotechnics; Price 5,400 gp;Weight 1 lb.
"spook" the gray elf wizard 5 (conjurer with immediate magic [abrupt jaunt]) evocation and enchantment banned
Equipment (total wealth 8910 gp): hewards fortifying bed roll 3000 gp, silk rope 10 gp, hewards handy haversack 2000 gp, healing belt 750 gp, scroll invisability X3 450 gp, scrolls of summon swarm X3 450gp, scrolls of remove scent X4 100 gp,
spells added to spell book:
summon monster 1 25 gp, true strike 25 gp, silent image 25 gp, disguise self 25 gp, expeditious retreat 25 gp, enlarge person 25 gp magic weapon 25 gp, feather fall 25 gp, mirror image 150 gp, alter self 150 gp, bears undurances 150 gp, foxs cunning 150 gp, false life 150 gp, spectral hand 150 gp, cats grace 150 gp, rope trick 150 gp, fly 375 gp, shivering touch 375 gp
Overspent (scribing costs)
Spells prepared: subject to change depending on tactics
1st: nerve skitter X2, remove scent, feather fall, summon monster 1
2nd: cats grace, summon swarm, chain of eyes, rope trick
3rd: extended invisability, shivering touch, summon monster 3
Tactics and summary: Most of the time he will be invisable. standard method of overcoming encounters is to cast summon swarm and concentrate untill the enemy is dead. the enemy can't find him and can't kill the swarm so he wins by default. anything that this wont work on he uses a high intiative, abrupt jaunt or foresight of what hes facing from a fiendish Hawk with chain of eyes on it. he has a fairly sizeable collection of spells and can use rope trick + hewards fortifying bedroll to swap out spells relatively quickly. Some of the encounters require more complex tactics and I will go over them in a later post. Suffice it to say there are no encounters here he can't reliably defeat using the right tactics. sure the cyrohydra takes some super cheese on my part but its still doable.
So, your method of ending encounters is via reading scrolls (you only have summon swarm memorized once)?
How does the swarm effect the wraith? (Cr5)
Swarms only deal 2d6 (7) damage a round. How does it kill the hydra (which heals more than 7 damage a round), etc ...
You mention the cryohydra. How do you pass the 6d6 auto-damage trap? (thats 21 damage, dropping you from full to -7).
You can only memorize spells once a day. Fortifying bedroll does not eliminate that game rule.
No argument, it is a little weird. Might have been easier to ban it than to try to make an airtight rule though. I don't think they wanted you doing move-equivalents before a charge either. (eg, a prone guy stands up and readies a charge...)
They wanted zombies to be able to charge you.
Yeah, you noticed my coment, but didn't noticed a 5th level wizard had 8 2nd level spells plus some 3rd level spells for "free"...
No wonder casters are so overpowered. People keep misreading them.:P
i dont have a lot of computer time available ... in fact right now i have less than 10 min to look at as much as i can, post some comments then i have to leave.. until lunch.. then have about 15-20 min to do the same.... then have to go until after work, when i have 45-60 min to do the same...... sorry if i miss some things
:D
It was mentioned by someone that my fire cloak adds to my list of known manuevers, but does not increase the amount of readied manueuvers ... why is that?
My thoughts:
Warblade known (3+cloak), readied (3+cloak).
The item says "A person who has worn a crown of White Ravens (replace crown with cloak) for 24 hours gains the use of a single White Raven maneuver for which he meets the prerequisites."
Also, I took another look at emerald razor, and I do not qualify for it as I need another one to qualify so I need to swap it out for something else. Good thing I rarely, if ever, used it.
Boneclaw:
Large Undead
Space/Reach: 10 ft. / 20 ft.
SA: Reaching Claws (claw has 20 ft. reach)
SQ: Unholy Toughness (HD x Cha mod bonus hit points)
Issues:
Feral is not a +0 template, people seem to not like it. Even if they did, it counts as a level (meaning, you need to be a level 4 + template, not level 5)
You have two custom items. Note, some of us might have custom items, but they are just combining existing items per the MiC rules. Creating new items is a no-no especially since it is very difficult to do pricing. For instance, your INA claw ... 6000? To get the equivalent of Impr Initiative is a +1 weapon enhancent, to get a lesser version of greater cleave is a +1 weapon enhancement, etc ... (i.e. need an 8000gp item minimum).
I'm sorry. There is a bit of an error on my side.
I set him for the cr 6 adventure, as he is ECL 6. I blame the lack of sleep and it being late at night for me. But that can be corrected and I'll strip him of a fighter level and he'll be ECL 5.
But now I realize that you go for the CR5 adventure with an ECL 5 char. And then use teh ECL 5 Character for the CR6 adventure. Correct?
On other notes, there were nothing in the rules about custom items.
The first "custom-item" is right off based on another item, except that it is slotted. Now, both the DMG and MIC show teh rules for making a slotted item unslotted. The price doubles. Now, wouldn't the price halve if you slot it? So, it's a slotted cognizance crystal.
And as I said, I used the Fanged ring (Which grants Improved unarmed strike and INA (Unarmed strike)) as an example. It also deals 1 point of constitution damage on a critical hit. I'll break down the item for you. To make it easy, I'll disregard the constitution damage. As it is, to me anyways, negligable.
Show
So, first off I'll give the two feats values.
What could those values be? I'll say 5000gp each. It's logical, as both are abilities are feats, which has no prereq feats.
But we have to take into the consideration that there are multiple abilities.
Are they similar? They're both related to dealing damage and improvement of unarmed damage. Yes they are similar. That means that the value would be slightly higher on each ability. (I'm clouded by fever so I'm not in position to do the math), But it would be something like X+(X*0.75)= 10000gp.
It's slightly below 6000gp, I know that as 6000+(6000*0.75)=10500gp
Good enough?
What could those values be? I'll say 5000gp each. It's logical, as both are abilities are feats, which has no prereq feats.
But we have to take into the consideration that there are multiple abilities.
Are they similar? They're both related to dealing damage and improvement of unarmed damage. Yes they are similar. That means that the value would be slightly higher on each ability. (I'm clouded by fever so I'm not in position to do the math), But it would be something like X+(X*0.75)= 10000gp.
It's slightly below 6000gp, I know that as 6000+(6000*0.75)=10500gp
Good enough?
Couple of questions:
It was mentioned by someone that my fire cloak adds to my list of known manuevers, but does not increase the amount of readied manueuvers ... why is that?
My thoughts:
Warblade known (3+cloak), readied (3+cloak).
The item says "A person who has worn a crown of White Ravens (replace crown with cloak) for 24 hours gains the use of a single White Raven maneuver for which he meets the prerequisites."
Also, I took another look at emerald razor, and I do not qualify for it as I need another one to qualify so I need to swap it out for something else. Good thing I rarely, if ever, used it.
I believe it does not add to your readied maneuvers because the item doesn't indicate it does. It simply says that you gain knowledge of that maneuver. Since you have Martial Adept levels, the knowledge of the maneuver counts as an extra known maneuver applied to your existing class. If you were not a Martial Adept it would simply allow you to use the 1 maneuver once/encounter. I would say it works this way because thats how Martial Study works and the item duplicates the feat almost exactly. That might be a little interpretation in there, but I don't see it explicitly allowing you to have an extra readied maneuver(which is RAW).
-AS-
I believe it does not add to your readied maneuvers because the item doesn't indicate it does. It simply says that you gain knowledge of that maneuver. Since you have Martial Adept levels, the knowledge of the maneuver counts as an extra known maneuver applied to your existing class. If you were not a Martial Adept it would simply allow you to use the 1 maneuver once/encounter. I would say it works this way because thats how Martial Study works and the item duplicates the feat almost exactly. That might be a little interpretation in there, but I don't see it explicitly allowing you to have an extra readied maneuver(which is RAW).
-AS-
I quoted the text that says "A person who has worn a crown of White Ravens (replace crown with cloak) for 24 hours gains the use of a single White Raven maneuver for which he meets the prerequisites."
The martial study says ".. becomes one of your maneuvers known".
The crown/cloak is more like a recurring Martial Script item (which lets you ready it as well as know it) than the feat.
I quoted the text that says "A person who has worn a crown of White Ravens (replace crown with cloak) for 24 hours gains the use of a single White Raven maneuver for which he meets the prerequisites."
The martial study says ".. becomes one of your maneuvers known".
The crown/cloak is more like a recurring Martial Script item (which lets you ready it as well as know it) than the feat.
Use of a maneuver in no way means that you are gaining an extra maneuver readied. As you ready maneuvers you choose to use the maneuver as normal.
Also, under activation it says "gains knowledge of that maneuver and can use it as long as the crown is worn.
Martial scripts have a very specific method of interacting with each other as described in the item description. It should not be inferred that that system applies to other methods of gaining maneuvers unless they explicitly say so.
-AS-
Use of a maneuver in no way means that you are gaining an extra maneuver readied. As you ready maneuvers you choose to use the maneuver as normal.
Also, under activation it says "gains knowledge of that maneuver and can use it as long as the crown is worn.
What is the point of the AND listed here if you only get the first part of the statement? Cause it looks like you gain
"Knowledge of that maneuver" (add to maneuvers known) AND "use of it" (add to readied maneuvers).
What is the point of the AND listed here if you only get the first part of the statement?
Because not only do you know the maneuver, you can also ready and use it. It would be silly if it granted you knowledge of a maneuver but didn't allow you to use.
-AS-
Because not only do you know the maneuver, you can also ready and use it. It would be silly if it granted you knowledge of a maneuver but didn't allow you to use.
-AS-
I agree, that would be silly.
However, if you need to spend a class resource (number of maneuvers able to be readied) to use this, then the item is not granting you the ability to use it. Instead, the item grants you the ability to use your class abilities.
Again, look at Martial Study. The wording is very similar and neither indicates you gain an extra readied maneuver(there's a separate feat for that).
I am impartial here. I defended the cloak and its use due to IL issues. I simply do not like people assuming things about mechanics without fully examining what they are talking about. The martial items are great for non-adepts because you simply gain a 1/encounter ability. The items are nice for adepts in that they can be used to qualify for other maneuvers and then the item can be discarded(as once you meet the prereqs for a maneuver it can self-qualify). At low initiator level, though, having a limited number of readied maneuvers is there for a reason.
-AS-
What do you mean by "rest and recover"? Rather, is that the same as "sleep", or does it mean that waiting to heal up (fast healing 1) is not allowed?
No sleeping. If a PC stands around for something like Draconic Aura, that just eats into buff durations.
Any environmental affects we need to be aware of (subdual damage, etc)?
Is the 18 inches of snow considered hampered movement?
The 18 inches is hampered movement, but there is no subdual damage for such a short duration.
Boneclaw:
Large Undead
Space/Reach: 10 ft. / 20 ft.
SA: Reaching Claws (claw has 20 ft. reach)
SQ: Unholy Toughness (HD x Cha mod bonus hit points)
I am not sure what sort of argument that is. The item expands your class abilities to incorporate another option. I'm not sure what that has to do with the item description, though.
The argument is that I am about to try my hand at another mini-adventure (probably losing) but would like to be as legit as possible before I begin.
Again, look at Martial Study. The wording is very similar and neither indicates you gain an extra readied maneuver(there's a separate feat for that).
Martial study says it adds to maneuvers known (only).
Cloak/crown says it adds grants knowledge + use. (Wording is not similar, this one says it does more than martial study).
I am impartial here. I defended the cloak and its use due to IL issues. I simply do not like people assuming things about mechanics without fully examining what they are talking about. The martial items are great for non-adepts because you simply gain a 1/encounter ability. The items are nice for adepts in that they can be used to qualify for other maneuvers and then the item can be discarded(as once you meet the prereqs for a maneuver it can self-qualify). At low initiator level, though, having a limited number of readied maneuvers is there for a reason.
-AS-
Which is nice, as custserv said that the fire riposte feat was used correctly.
Re-reading the answer from custserv implies that you are correct in this. (The text about swapping it out for another maneuver)
Edit: from what Grendel said, this argument is moot.
I really really dislike changing equipment between fights. (Except for changing out the prot acid for something else). Would this guy, using this set of equipment, have been able to beat the other set of encounters?
He's doing it based on the information he's got, just like the spellcasters are prepping spells based on the information he's got. Given that I'm using PHB+complete warrior and maybe 2-3 things from other sources none of which exceed the power level of generic stuff, I'm not using flaws and I'm not cherry picking obviously broken stuff (dwarf ancester, greenbound summoning, fleshraker, I'm looking at YOU, not to mention the mount that grants earth glide to the rider....), this seems to me like a quibble. My non DMG/PHB/Complete warrior stuff are brutal throw (CA), potion of faith healing (which another warrior used, so it is clearly available at the potion shop of Oldimara), and the blue ice sword, which my real Bela character actually owns (and does a whopping +1 damage for 500gp over a normal masterwork steel sword and only with slashing damage type. I'd do better to get a weapon crystal of some kind)
And actually, the crypt equipment is generally useful for him. The magic stones are superior to javelins on 2 fronts (+1 to hit/damage, and are free action to draw), they're just more of something he already packs and the wand of prot evil makes up a lot for his lack of deflectin or resistance items, and again is an extension of a potion he already packs. Normally he expects to find only one or two encounters where they'd be useful. A crypt though, is a limited size proposition. Why wouldn't he spend spare cash trying to succeed? If he doesn't use it on that adventure, he'll use it on future ones.
For the hydra, he can't possibly win without the specialized hydra-killing gear, and he did the other encounters in that challenge with nothing but 7500gp of his generic gear. I even blew 500gp on just talking to a sage. He can SURVIVE the hydra encounter...even if it could follow him all the way out after dealing 17 damge, there is that pit, and the hydra's too big to fit and unlikely to jump in and trap itself. He'd camp out on the bottom, eating rations, till it got bored and left
The Bela on Drugs was not serious. It was an exercise to show that you don't need Polymorph Any Object to transform a character with big consumable expenses on a 10 minute dungeon crawl. The DMG potion list does just fine. That's why I like the second CR5 challenge - it limits the ability to nova with consumables and short duration buffs.
If you read the email that I sent to CustServ, they have already addressed the issue.
From my email :
10) When using one the disciple wondrous items to gain access to a maneuver, my understanding is that it is added to maneuvers known. It must then be selected as a readied maneuver if the initiator wants to make use of it in an encounter. Is this correct? It does not expand the number of maneuvers the owner is allowed to ready normally?
From the CustServ response :
Question 10: Correct!
I completely agree that reading all the rules in ToB, this interpretation makes the most sense.
However, something else to consider Ander_Spectacular, in other email responses from CustServ/Sage Advice, I believe they specifically denied meeting pre-requisites using maneuvers gained through the wondrous items and/or martial scripts (which I have to agree, is too far into the cheddar department for my tastes).
Does your summoning feats give the summoned animals the ability to affect the wraith? (i.e. does the greenbound template replace or add to the celestial template)
They have DR/Magic, which is enough to penetrate DR/Magic but I'm not sure on this for incorporeals. Monk Ki Strike/Magic was ruled not to affect incorporeals. Maybe a rules guru can point to something explicit that shows one way or another whether the situation is more like Ki Strike or more like a magic weapon.
They have DR/Magic, which is enough to penetrate DR/Magic but I'm not sure on this for incorporeals. Monk Ki Strike/Magic was ruled not to affect incorporeals. Maybe a rules guru can point to something explicit that shows one way or another whether the situation is more like Ki Strike or more like a magic weapon.
Ok, I am just trying to show the same level of examination for noncasters as I do for casters. If I go too far, sorry --
I may have to drop a few spells known which means I lose some versatility however I should still be able to defeat the encounters as is. we will see however after I make changes to the spells known list.
However, something else to consider Ander_Spectacular, in other email responses from CustServ/Sage Advice, I believe they specifically denied meeting pre-requisites using maneuvers gained through the wondrous items and/or martial scripts (which I have to agree, is too far into the cheddar department for my tastes).
Remember scripts only work once. Items granting the ability allow maneuvers to be readied, which is far more powerful. For non martial adepts they allow one use of the maneuver every fight, which is also pretty damn good.
Wow. I just looked up greenbound summoning.
I can summon 2-5 wolves that can each cast wall of thorns?
God that is stupid. No wonder it crops up here so much
That said, there are problems with the tactics.
1. bats have blindsense, not blindsight. It is affected by the smoke and will have 50% miss chances. Delays mean you have to summon more stuff and may eventually run out of spell slots.
2. the bats are still animal intelligence. Greenbound template doesn't give it intelligence, just charisma and physical stats. It is no longer an animal, so speak with animals won't work. Do you have speak with plants running? It certainly isn't going to know to do something bizzare like grappling a manticore and it won't know when to drop the wall of thorns if you can't communicate.
3. If the bat fails to grapple the manticore (likely, manticores are size large and pretty strong too, even with the +6 str and +4 grapple bonus greenbound get and you include the miss chance for touch attack) why in the world would not the manticore just take off until the smoke goes away? That's a victory of sorts, until it eats the spell depleted druid on the way out when you finally cork the bottle on the way back to town.
4. Faerie fire eliminates concealment miss chances but it doesn't eliminate "you lose line of sight entirely if there is 5' of smoke between you and anything else". So it might help if it is 5' away, and thus work well with bats. It won't help on anything further away in that smoke. I'm not sure though...eversmoking bottle is like sleet storm not like fog. It blocks all sight, period. Faerie fire doesn't do anything if the person is effectively blind.
Look...I think you are on to something here because the greenbound template is utterly and completely broken - maybe less so if it wasn't available for the cost of a feat without affecting the level of summon you can do, but it is way powerful...the only limit being duration.
It should be powerful enough that you don't need to have grappling bats and faerie fire in fog. Just use the eversmoking bottle to protect your location and send in the greenbound stuff straight up. Very little can hurt them in the first challenge.
Why can't the dragon just stay flying out of reach of the lions and wait out the summons? When a bunch of topiary lions show up, it doesn't take ranks in spellcraft to figure they're likely summoned. A potion of prot (alignment) in the dragon's treasure would also kind of hose this tactic.
1. Its only 20% miss at 5' inside the smoke. Track that just like any other roll (20/50) hit. (40/50) hit, (60/50) miss, (80/150) hit etc. Greenbound bats have both blindsense and tremorsense, though tremorsense won't work while its flying. Note that most of the time the druid is far enough back that the smoke doesn't cover the combatants (just during the manticore fight). Close range plus 80' charge puts the lion in combat even if the druid is over 100' away.
2. Come on, a greenbound critter dropping a wall of thorns and grappling in it is hardly a stretch.
3. The bat is the same size as the manticore and stronger. It COULD run away, but I could also use SNA2 for a pack of greenbound eagles that would shred it. Remeber the manticore can't actually damage a greenbound creature.
4. Faerie fire only eliminates concealment thats correct. Beyond that the animals rely on tremorsense (added via greenbound summoning). They pinpoint with that and then when they get close they have no miss chance. I didn't actually use faerie fire when I figured it out last time, mostly because the critters can't hurt the greenbound animals enough to want the defense. If the critters came into the fog then I could use faerie fire to make sure the summons weren't impeded.
The dragon is in a small room. In the open it would get a dire bat or a couple castings of SNA 2 for d3 eagles.
You're right the bat doesn't need to grapple, it could simply charge each round as the manticore tried to evade and then take an aoo as the manticore moved away. Still it ends the fight that much quicker that way. An alternate strategy for this druid is to have the summons grapple and then CDG the pinned critters.
I'm not using flaws and I'm not cherry picking obviously broken stuff (dwarf ancester, greenbound summoning, fleshraker, I'm looking at YOU, not to mention the mount that grants earth glide to the rider....)
Thank you.
The trying to figure out the most powerful caster/non-caster would be pointless if you avoided all the broken stuff. You would have to ban the druid class. A core druid isn't quite as bad but its close, especially next level, with another big bump in a couple levels when it can wildshape into a large size bear and then drink a potion of enlarge person to become a huge bear with stupid high strength, imp grapple, imp grab etc.
Remember scripts only work once. Items granting the ability allow maneuvers to be readied, which is far more powerful. For non martial adepts they allow one use of the maneuver every fight, which is also pretty damn good.
I think that there may have been a miscommunication on this point. Ander_Spectacular mentioned that the wondrous items could be used to qualify for a maneuver and then later discarded. I was simply pointing out that the ToB Q&A thread with collected responses from the Sage and CustServ had this to say :
Q: Can you use a wondrous martial item, such as shadow hands, to meet the prerequisite for a maneuver?
A: No, because these maneuvers are temporary bonus maneuvers, and do not belong to your actual maneuvers known.
Take that for what it is worth, but I think the general principle is certainly sound (allowing temporary maneuvers from either wondrous items or scripts to qualify you for other maneuvers is overpowering).
On the matter of Meyer_William's question about the wondrous items granting an additional readied maneuver slot, CustServ has also ruled that this is not the case (Ander_Spectular, myself, and hopefully other folks had already interpreted the ToB rules this way).
Level 7-8 though are very exciting times for druids, getting first the really good PHB companions, and then the size large forms. I won't argue that.
For the other new CR6 challenge I expect Bela (and his poor horse *sigh) to get shredded, I'll use the same equipment as in the crypt fight except that I realized I forgot to replace a silver weapon, so a few magic stone potions will be swapped for a mundane silver weapon and a potion of magic weapon. As the poster gave something away about the challenges I'll roll a d4 to decide which door I go through. But today I have to actually work. These challenges are very distracting
A druid class working under the same artificial restrictions Bela is working under would have a weaker companion and a weaker wildshape form. It would make a big difference in the fleshraker build if your pouncemonster was a leapard instead of a fleshraker (eg, venomfire would do nothing). Likewise augment summoning doesn't hold a candle to greenbound summoning in raw power, but they have the same cost. I'm partly doing Bela as a counterpoint to the warblade build, they show kind of the extremes of campaign permissiveness so you can get a range to judge melee effectiveness (with Bela at the low end). I keep hoping somebody will do that with a caster. The trouble with building it all around a couple things (ancestral dwarf, etc) is that if they get banned, you're kinda stuck.
It's good to also know what a more typical character would do in these situations. I like seeing the wacky stuff, but I'd also like to see a caster who just was ported in or slightly modified from a real game.
The reason I'm not doing it is that out of about 8 characters I've created that have either achieved level 5 or are at least planned out to level 5 (one warmage), Bela's the only one that works at all well as a solo character. None of the casters would do very well. They'll either run out of steam too fast, or be forced to avoid most of the encounters and then be trapped if the ones they do fight go badly. A couple are designed to supercharge other characters, which doesn't work so well solo.
2. Come on, a greenbound critter dropping a wall of thorns and grappling in it is hardly a stretch.
Sure if it was smart. But this is a bat. How is it going to know you don't want it to just bite the manticore until it dies? That's how it would normally fight.
You could summon a giant eagle, they're smart and they even understand Common. But that takes a L3 slot, meaning less lions.
Remember the mighty war troll?
Well, read it again. It says war trolls will work for you for a measly 30 gp per day.
Yeah baby. No need for maneuvers or broken feats or under CRd dinossaurs. Just spend a little gold and your troll buddy will punch trough anything and everything untill around lv10.
I personally would just ban the book out of this contest. It just screams "powergamer" so much it hurts my ears.
A druid class working under the same artificial restrictions Bela is working under would have a weaker companion and a weaker wildshape form. It would make a big difference in the fleshraker build if your pouncemonster was a leapard instead of a fleshraker (eg, venomfire would do nothing). Likewise augment summoning doesn't hold a candle to greenbound summoning in raw power, but they have the same cost. I'm partly doing Bela as a counterpoint to the warblade build, they show kind of the extremes of campaign permissiveness so you can get a range to judge melee effectiveness (with Bela at the low end). I keep hoping somebody will do that with a caster. The trouble with building it all around a couple things (ancestral dwarf, etc) is that if they get banned, you're kinda stuck.
If I was doing core only I would be using the non-poisonous version of the raptor. Check out the Deinonychus. Basically the same deal as the fleshraker - the poison. Sure its not as powerful as the fleshraker but its still stupid strong.
None of the feats or anything used by the poucer would be in danger, Venomfire and Fleshraker form are possible casualties of the nerfwar but I still believe the druid would easilly complete the CR5 challenge without either of those things.
OMG I was just reading MMIII and it indeed is a munchking book.
Remember the mighty war troll?
Well, read it again. It says war trolls will work for you for a measly 30 gp per day.
Yeah baby. No need for maneuvers or broken feats or under CRd dinossaurs. Just spend a little gold and your troll buddy will punch trough anything and everything untill around lv10.
I personally would just ban the book out of this contest. It just screams "powergamer" so much it hurts my ears.
Oh yeah? Check out MM2.
Some offenders in MM2 would be Jarelith etc. Look at the Nimblewrights, how would you like a ac 7(?) encounter that can use MDJ at will etc, nothx.
Bladelings are pretty nasty at level 1 too, 2d6 cone... yeah. So your con 16 caster dies in one shot, the fighter is under half.
Sure if it was smart. But this is a bat. How is it going to know you don't want it to just bite the manticore until it dies? That's how it would normally fight.
You could summon a giant eagle, they're smart and they even understand Common. But that takes a L3 slot, meaning less lions.
I would use normal eagles, giant eagles are magical beasts not animals. Normal eagles would be strength 20 or so, how would you like a cloud of those coming after you? Not so cool. Especially since they are much faster than the manticore in the air, can't be damaged by the manticore and are more maneuverable. They could use dive attacks every other round and a normal claw on the other rounds.
Level 7-8 though are very exciting times for druids,
Level 7 is also when Clerics get full Base attack :D
I would use normal eagles, giant eagles are magical beasts not animals. Normal eagles would be strength 20 or so, how would you like a cloud of those coming after you? Not so cool. Especially since they are much faster than the manticore in the air, can't be damaged by the manticore and are more maneuverable. They could use dive attacks every other round and a normal claw on the other rounds.
My point was not simply how strong the war troll is, but also that you can have one as a mercenary for a measly 30gp per day. Any challenger here could just cash out 30gp and have the troll win the dungeon for him.
Also, where are you finding 20 str eagles? They have 10 base str. And they're small, so really not grea grapplers even with improved grapple. They're 1/2 CR for god's sake. Even a 1st level fighter has a good shot at a cloud of these.
EDIT:Also, I went to check MM2 now and niblewrights are constructs with a few buff SLA, but no MDJ at will. Didn't you get something wrong?
Also, most CR 1 things can 1hit kill a lv1 wizard. The bladeling hits hard once, but goes down rather quickly with 13 AC and 4 hp.
Thank you.
The trying to figure out the most powerful caster/non-caster would be pointless if you avoided all the broken stuff. You would have to ban the druid class. A core druid isn't quite as bad but its close, especially next level, with another big bump in a couple levels when it can wildshape into a large size bear and then drink a potion of enlarge person to become a huge bear with stupid high strength, imp grapple, imp grab etc.
The brokeness of the L5 druid comes from the fleshraker (utterly unbalanced when compared with critters of its CR) and the whole polymorph mechanics. Want to get rid of it? Use the PHB2 variant druid. It is still a full caster, so it is powerful (particularly at high level) but no AC and no polymorph makes a far more balanced class.
But as I have mentioned, anyone can have fleshrakers with a feat, and even more powerful forms than wildshaped through PAO. I think the brokenes (at level 5, at least) is in the mechanics, not in the class abilities.
But as I have mentioned, anyone can have fleshrakers with a feat, and even more powerful forms than wildshaped through PAO. I think the brokenes (at level 5, at least) is in the mechanics, not in the class abilities.
The brokeness comes from wizards stupid stupid stupid idea that players and monsters should work the same way, and thus gave us plenty of tools to acess monster powers and the monsters themselves.
Since there are hundreds of monsters, and wotc knows it will only sell monster books if it prints cool strong monsters, things easily get broken if the DM is mad enough to allow the PCs to know every monster out there and start abusing Alter self, polymorph and friends and feats that grant monster cohorts.
My point was not simply how strong the war troll is, but also that you can have one as a mercenary for a measly 30gp per day. Any challenger here could just cash out 30gp and have the troll win the dungeon for him.
Also, where are you finding 20 str eagles? They have 10 base str. And they're small, so really not grea grapplers even with improved grapple. They're 1/2 CR for god's sake. Even a 1st level fighter has a good shot at a cloud of these.
EDIT:Also, I went to check MM2 now and niblewrights are constructs with a few buff SLA, but no MDJ at will. Didn't you get something wrong?
Also, most CR 1 things can 1hit kill a lv1 wizard. The bladeling hits hard once, but goes down rather quickly with 13 AC and 4 hp.
10 strength +6 from greenbound +4 from augment summoning = 20 strength.
Keep in mind they have ac ~23, dr 10/slashing and magic etc. No a level 1 fighter has no chance against even 1 of those.
Me too
Show
Human, 25 point buy -- I think this is correct
Str: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (13+4th level)
Char: 12
AC: 29 when buffed (effectively 33)
Hps: 36
Level: Ranger 5, Wildshape variant.
Feats:
Improved Init (H)
Magic Item Attunement (1)
Power Attack (F)
Combat Reflexes (F)
Draconic Aura (Vigor) (3)
Flaws:
MurlyEyed
Shaky
Skills:
AutoHypnotism 4
Animal Handling 8
Spot 8
Listen 8
Jump 8
Open Locks 4
Search 8
UMD 4
Equipment: (8970 1/3 gp)
Potion of Venomfire
Scroll of Greater Magic Fang
Scroll of Luminous Armor
Composite Longbow (str+1)
Greatsword +1
MW Full Plate
Wand Sheaths
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (30 charges)
Wand of Wraithstrike (10 charges)
Masterwork Lockpicks
5 Potions of Mage Armor
Wand of Alterself (10 charges)
Potion of Favorable Sacrifice (1000gp)
2 Saucers
MW Studded Leather barding for riding dog animal companion (Self Crafted)
Chain Shirt (self crafted)
Tactics:
Read scrolls, drink potion.
Saucers are for potions that need to be drank in fleshraker form (venomfire)
Fluffy: (War Trained Riding Dog)
Hp: 13 (2d8+4)
Init +2
AC 16 (22 mage armor)
BAB/Grapple +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Special: Trip, Low Light Vision, Scent
Speed: 40
Skills: Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5
Equipment:
MW Leather Barding (accounted for in ranger's equipment)
Training: Fluffy has been trained to lead. It retreats when it sees a monster/trap and just holds its action for the rest of the encounter.
If I drop a wand, it picks it up (fetch).
If I am grappled, then it rushes in to attack the thing that grapples me.
Human, 25 point buy -- I think this is correct
Str: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (13+4th level)
Char: 12
AC: 29 when buffed (effectively 33)
Hps: 36
Level: Ranger 5, Wildshape variant.
Feats:
Improved Init (H)
Magic Item Attunement (1)
Power Attack (F)
Combat Reflexes (F)
Draconic Aura (Vigor) (3)
Flaws:
MurlyEyed
Shaky
Skills:
AutoHypnotism 4
Animal Handling 8
Spot 8
Listen 8
Jump 8
Open Locks 4
Search 8
UMD 4
Equipment: (8970 1/3 gp)
Potion of Venomfire
Scroll of Greater Magic Fang
Scroll of Luminous Armor
Composite Longbow (str+1)
Greatsword +1
MW Full Plate
Wand Sheaths
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (30 charges)
Wand of Wraithstrike (10 charges)
Masterwork Lockpicks
5 Potions of Mage Armor
Wand of Alterself (10 charges)
Potion of Favorable Sacrifice (1000gp)
2 Saucers
MW Studded Leather barding for riding dog animal companion (Self Crafted)
Chain Shirt (self crafted)
Tactics:
Read scrolls, drink potion.
Saucers are for potions that need to be drank in fleshraker form (venomfire)
Fluffy: (War Trained Riding Dog)
Hp: 13 (2d8+4)
Init +2
AC 16 (22 mage armor)
BAB/Grapple +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Special: Trip, Low Light Vision, Scent
Speed: 40
Skills: Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5
Equipment:
MW Leather Barding (accounted for in ranger's equipment)
Training: Fluffy has been trained to lead. It retreats when it sees a monster/trap and just holds its action for the rest of the encounter.
If I drop a wand, it picks it up (fetch).
If I am grappled, then it rushes in to attack the thing that grapples me.
I would use normal eagles, giant eagles are magical beasts not animals. Normal eagles would be strength 20 or so, how would you like a cloud of those coming after you?
edit...never mind I forgot about augment summonin. Do they really go from AC 14 to AC23 just by being greenbound? If so I missed that lovely piece of information. I just saw the statboosts, plant type and DR10/magic and SLA. You could solve a lot of issues in the build by adding rapid spell to your list and prepping a rapid summon II to create an instant distraction and then smoke up and do the longer summons...
But the wall of thorns is scary, from all of them, if you can get them to cast it. For the 5 rounds it sticks around.
Greenbound only works on animals? Then yeah, communication will always be a problem.
and for the record, Bela does NOT use his warhorse as a flack jacket. It keeps getting mauled in outdoor encounters versus fliers because they're ineffective against the much heavier armored Bela. He can't afford to make it tougher though. I only used it once as bait, and in that case it's because I already lost the encounter and was looking for a roleplay excuse as to how he could get further to try the rest out. (the "four doors" module is easier, as I can pretend that whatever killed him was the last door he opened, even if he dies all four times
).Bela's strategy is to rely on armor, decent hitpoints and decent saves to make up for lack of alertness or stealth skills, to win easy encounters without resources, hard encounters with rage and to use strength for everything (missile and melee). He can to some extent tune his attacks and defenses with power attack and expertise, but when fighting stuff his own CR, he's usually better off not using either. He uses a limited number of consumables aside from healing unless he knows he's going up against something he can't possibly beat otherwise. Self healing between encounters is a must for a solo melee build. Wands are just cheaper than potions. Bela is mostly a slow and steady guy. He doesn't do anything flashy but he's usually pretty hard to kill.
Now, before I run the numbers, I just want to make sure that
1) I have used most of the broken tactics (Sanctum Spell, Wildshape, Excess Consumables, Venomfire, Fleshraker, animal companion).
2) the build is legal.
To get this straight, you're a ranger who wildshapes, using fleshraker form, who uses his animal companion as a trapspringer once you arrive at the dungeon. (I'd probably use a riding dog or dire bat in this role, they're more durable, but a horse is ok).
That seems ok. The consumables with sanctum spell are kinda weird. Are you just getting higher than normal caster levels for lower cost than just buying the higher caster level? Why not just cough up for the higher CL? It's not like that build is really very equipment intensive, you should have the cash.
Potion of Sanctum Spell Venomfire
Scroll of Sanctum Spell Greater Magic Fang
Scroll of Sanctum Spell Greater Luminous Armor
Wand of Sanctum Spell Barkskin (10 charges)
Composite Longbow (str+1)
greatsword +1
Full Plate
Wand Sheaths
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (10 charges)
Wand of Sanctum Spell Wraithstrike (50 charges)
I'm not really sure how Sanctum interacts with scrolls and wands, but I think you are just wasting money. Since the wizard would create them within his sanctum, CL is +1. Then when you want to use them, you are outside his sanctum, so CL is -1. So you're paying to get a higher caster level but casting them at a time when you get a lower caster level?
Also, you have to remember that when you use UMD on a wand, you have a 1/20 chance of rolling a natural 1, which prevents you from using that wand until you gain more ranks with it. So you can only ever count on a build getting 10 shots of a wand, since after that, your odds rolling a natural 1 are over 50%, and you fail with the wand, rendering it unusable.
If I was doing core only I would be using the non-poisonous version of the raptor. Check out the Deinonychus. Basically the same deal as the fleshraker - the poison. Sure its not as powerful as the fleshraker but its still stupid strong.
Deinonychus is size large, and compares badly to the dire lion, which you can also do at level 8. You can't turn into it at level 5, and it doesn't have venomfire adding +5d6 to each and every attack.
I could do real damage with a leapard that got +5d6 to each attack too. Sign me up!
It really is the fleshraker that's the problem, not wildshape. I've done some fun things with reckless rage+power attack on leapard form to get some nice damage, but venomfire is like getting fires of purity cast on you for HOUR PER LEVEL (and is several levels lower than fires of purity). Just stupid. It was clearly intended for things like giant vipers or scorpions (or scorpion-men). Almost no monsters have more than one poisonous attack, so it isn't so bad in that context although uncapped is also pretty stupid.
This thread is really an education for me on why I don't see most of this stuff in real play. It gets banned quickly or access isn't granted even if it isn't explicitly banned.
Deinonychus is size large, and compares badly to the dire lion, which you can also do at level 8. You can't turn into it at level 5, and it doesn't have venomfire adding +5d6 to each and every attack.
Read the MM errata or check the SRD. Its medium
It really is the fleshraker that's the problem, not wildshape. I've done some fun things with reckless rage+power attack on leapard form to get some nice damage, but venomfire is like getting fires of purity cast on you for HOUR PER LEVEL (and is several levels lower than fires of purity). Just stupid. It was clearly intended for things like giant vipers or scorpions (or scorpion-men). Almost no monsters have more than one poisonous attack, so it isn't so bad in that context although uncapped is also pretty stupid.
This thread is really an education for me on why I don't see most of this stuff in real play. It gets banned quickly or access isn't granted even if it isn't explicitly banned.
The fleshraker is an extreme example, but there are other good forms out there. Not that can utilize Venomfire quite so well I grant, but the thing about the druid is its not dependant on 1 book like melee are.
Greenbound critters are +2 CR and +8 LA.
I am pretty sure a warforged fighter can beat one of those. A barbarian would for sure. A level 1 caster? Not likely.
My new build ... it's called 'me too'
Me tooShow
Human, 25 point buy -- I think this is correct
Str: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (13+4th level)
Char: 12
AC: 29 when buffed (effectively 33)
Hps: 36
Level: Ranger 5, Wildshape variant.
Feats:
Improved Init (H)
Magic Item Attunement (1)
Power Attack (F)
Combat Reflexes (F)
Draconic Aura (Vigor) (3)
Flaws:
MurlyEyed
Shaky
Skills:
Hide 8
Move Silently 8
Spot 8
Listen 8
Jump 8
Knowledge Dungeoneering 8
Knowledge Nature 8
UMD 4
Equipment:
Potion of Sanctum Spell Venomfire
Scroll of Sanctum Spell Greater Magic Fang
Scroll of Sanctum Spell Greater Luminous Armor
Wand of Sanctum Spell Barkskin (10 charges)
Composite Longbow (str+1)
greatsword +1
Full Plate
Wand Sheaths
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (10 charges)
Wand of Sanctum Spell Wraithstrike (50 charges)
Tactics:
Read scrolls, drink potion. Use barksin wand on self + fluffy (warhorse animal companion)
Pay hireling 1 gp to put the wand sheathes on me (wraith strike + cure light wounds).
Go to the dungeon.
Use a combination of the druid + bela's tactics.
When I win initiative, I charge/kill everything.
The warhorse sets off the traps and I charge in to save it.
Divine vigor heals it up afterwards.
A greenbound eagle is a CR 2 encounter.
Greenbound critters are +2 CR and +8 LA.
I am pretty sure a warforged fighter can beat one of those. A barbarian would for sure. A level 1 caster? Not likely.
So let me get this strait.
The fighter hits ac 23 gets through the 10/magic and slashing DR and deals enough damage to kill the critter before it just flys away and heals?
The way I figure it it probably wont have a magic weapon at level 1 (unless your DM is insane) it will have maybe a +6 to hit, that means it has a quite low chance of actually hitting at all and no chance of dealing damage through the DR.
So let me get this strait.
The fighter hits ac 23 gets through the 10/magic and slashing DR and deals enough damage to kill the critter before it just flys away and heals?
The way I figure it it probably wont have a magic weapon at level 1 (unless your DM is insane) it will have maybe a +6 to hit, that means it has a quite low chance of actually hitting at all and no chance of dealing damage through the DR.
Oil of magic weapon, 50 gold.
It has AC 21, not 23 (+3 dex, +1 size, +7 natural)
Base strength of the barbarian is 18, +4 rage, +1 focus, +1 magic. This mean +8 to hit, so hits 40% of the time. Damage is 2d6+9 (average 16), the critter has only 7 hp (9 if called with augment conjuring, which requires flaws for a level 1 druid).
With an orc is even easier, but the AC is crap.
Oil of magic weapon, 50 gold.
It has AC 21, not 23 (+3 dex, +1 size, +7 natural)
Base strength of the barbarian is 18, +4 rage, +1 focus, +1 magic. This mean +8 to hit, so hits 60% of the time. Damage is 2d6+9 (average 16), the critter has only 7 hp (9 if called with augment conjuring, which requires flaws for a level 1 druid).
With an orc is even easier, but the AC is crap.
So basically if you assume they have one item that rarely appears on level 1 charecters then they have a chance, and if not they have none? Fair enough. Considering thats a single level 1 spell.
So basically if you assume they have one item that rarely appears on level 1 charecters then they have a chance, and if not they have none? Fair enough. Considering thats a single level 1 spell.
Which lasts one round for a first level druid.
That requires a druid with 3 feats at first level (or it is weaker than advertised).
A full round to cast.
From Forgotten Realms.
Initiate in ancient elven summoning techniques long forgotten (page 8, Lost Empires).
A spell that will kill any druid against which it is cast, by the way.
MUCH more convoluted scenario than a level 1 fighter or barbarian with a potion of magic weapon.
To get this straight, you're a ranger who wildshapes, using fleshraker form, who uses his animal companion as a trapspringer once you arrive at the dungeon. (I'd probably use a riding dog or dire bat in this role, they're more durable, but a horse is ok).
That seems ok. The consumables with sanctum spell are kinda weird. Are you just getting higher than normal caster levels for lower cost than just buying the higher caster level? Why not just cough up for the higher CL? It's not like that build is really very equipment intensive, you should have the cash.
Ah, here is your mistake ... it is not a higher Caster level, it is spell level ... This works just like the pearls of power ...
Wand cost = 15*Spell Level * caster level, in short, I get spells for 1 level lower cost
15*1*3 =45 gp/charge for a level 2 spell.
I'll examine it more closely later for now I just want to say...
You can't do that, the manticore will kill your hireling.
Naw,
I am no where near the manticore when the hireling puts on the sheaths (notice, my lowest duration buff is measured in 10 min/level).
My character is good -- so he cares about his minions.
A spell that will kill any druid against which it is cast, by the way.
Druids can cast Shilellagh, giving them a magical 1-handed 2d6 damage weapon (assuming they're medium sized), at 1st level. Most druids I've gamed with prepare this regularly. They are likely to miss, but they certainly aren't guaranteed to die to one of these things.
Wait a minute, if the DR is slashing, then a simple nonmagical greatsword/greataxe will take care of it.
They said DR/ slashing and magic. That means you need a magical slashing weapon.
Ah, here is your mistake ... it is not a higher Caster level, it is spell level ... This works just like the pearls of power ...
Wand cost = 15*Spell Level * caster level, in short, I get spells for 1 level lower cost
15*1*3 =45 gp/charge for a level 2 spell.
I don't think this is how it works Meyer_William. Sanctum Spell is a meta-magic feat with a level adjustment of +0. The effect of the meta-magic feat is that the spell, when cast, is considered +/- 1 spell level depending upon whether you are in your "sanctum".
If you are creating an spell trigger item, and want the meta-magic effect to apply the spell you are placing in the wand, you base the cost on the spell plus the meta-magic level adjustment (in this case +0). So for the cost calculation, these spells are still considered to be their normal spell level. If you want a wand of silent magic missiles, you figure the cost with spell level 2 (MM is 1, +1 for silent). If you want a wand of energy substitution (cold) fireballs, you figure the cost with spell level 3 (fireball is 3, +0 for energy sub.). So I think your wands will end up costing considerably more. Still, there might be a viable build idea here...
The text of the pearl of power is considered to be broken (because the way it is worded it sounds like a level 1 pearl can recall a level 2 sanctum spell that was cast outside the sanctum previously that day), but that is another story.
The text of the pearl of power is considered to be broken (because the way it is worded it sounds like a level 1 pearl can recall a level 2 sanctum spell that was cast outside the sanctum previously that day), but that is another story.
90% of the broken stuff in D&D it's because the books are poorly written. If we are going to fix pearl of power we may as well fix everything else.
This adventure is much more complex than the ones posted so far. It is also much more difficult.
Introduction
A tribe of kobolds living in a cave outside of town has kidnapped the local lord’s daughter and is holding her for an outrageous ransom fee. The lord has hired you to bring back his daughter.
The kobolds’ location is well-known, a cave outside of town.
Note: unless specified otherwise, normal doors are Good wooden doors (hardness 5, 15hp, break DC 18). Rooms and hallways, unless specified otherwise, are well-lit with torches in wall brackets.
A tribe of kobolds living in a cave outside of town has kidnapped the local lord’s daughter and is holding her for an outrageous ransom fee. The lord has hired you to bring back his daughter.
The kobolds’ location is well-known, a cave outside of town.
Note: unless specified otherwise, normal doors are Good wooden doors (hardness 5, 15hp, break DC 18). Rooms and hallways, unless specified otherwise, are well-lit with torches in wall brackets.
Show
Roy the conjurer
Human: Djinni intermediate bloodline.
Specialist, focused specialist, immediate magic variants.
Feats
Flaw: flash frost spell
Flaw: invisible spell
Human: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus: conjuration
Level 3: extend spell
Level 4: improved initiative
Level5: Fiery burst
Noncombatant, feeble.
Aggressive, quick
Stats:
Stre: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Inte: 17 (18/20) level increase.
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Saves: F 3, R 3, W 4
HP=14+8.5
Spells prepared
0-3 orb of acid, 3 resistance
1: Mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, 2 grease
2: protection from arrows, energy protection, 3 glitterdust, darkvision
3: 2 extended, invisible, flashfrost, heightened sleet storms, 1 heightened to 4 orb of fire, 1 empty slot.
Items: Headband of intelligence +2 (4000), mastercrafted light crossbow (335) 40 bolts (2), 10 tanglefoot bags (self made, 250), ring of protection +1 (2000), 3 paladin made potions of lesser restoration (150) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300), 3 scrolls of false life.
Cast, mage armour, resistance, darkvision, protection from arrows, false life from scroll.
Against manticore:
Paul and the manticore see each other, and roll for initiatives. I win initiatives (75%) and move in close enough to throw a tangle foot bag at him. I hit (70%) and the manticore fails its save (60%) falling to the ground, taking about 7 points of falling damage. The manticore looses a volley of spikes on me, and I take 3 hits (270%) and lose 19.5 points off of my protection from arrows.
I fiery burst the manticore, which passes the save (95%) and takes 7 damage. It attacks me with more spikes, getting 2 hits (540%) dealing 13 damage.
I cast fire burst on the manticore, and it fails the save (130%) and takes 14 damage. He once against spikes me, hitting 3 more times, (810%) dealing me 19.5 points of damage. I’ve lost my protection from arrows, and have lost 2 temporary hit points.
I fiery burst the manticore, it passes the save (165%) and takes 7 damage. He flings spikes at me again, and I abrupt jaunt out of there way.
I throw a tanglefoot bag at the beast, which misses (140%) and the manticore scrapes off the old one, as it is now out of spikes.
The old tangle foot bag wears off, and I throw another one, which hits (200%) and it fails the save (225%) sticking it to the ground. The manticore rips it apart as a full round action.
I fiery burst the manticore again, and it fails the save (255%) taking 14 points of damage. I move back after this, to 40 feet away. Manticore moves in 30 feet. If it starts trying to run away, I shoot it to death with my crossbow, and with fiery bursts.
I use fiery burst again, it passes the save (290%) taking 7 damage. I move back out of its range again. It moves towards me.
I use fiery burst, which kill the manticore (225%) with 14 damage.
To note, if it used its fly move, I could always move to not be in its charge or move radiuses. This would not change the result. I bring up protection from evil, shield and resistance after the fight.
Human: Djinni intermediate bloodline.
Specialist, focused specialist, immediate magic variants.
Feats
Flaw: flash frost spell
Flaw: invisible spell
Human: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus: conjuration
Level 3: extend spell
Level 4: improved initiative
Level5: Fiery burst
Noncombatant, feeble.
Aggressive, quick
Stats:
Stre: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Inte: 17 (18/20) level increase.
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Saves: F 3, R 3, W 4
HP=14+8.5
Spells prepared
0-3 orb of acid, 3 resistance
1: Mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, 2 grease
2: protection from arrows, energy protection, 3 glitterdust, darkvision
3: 2 extended, invisible, flashfrost, heightened sleet storms, 1 heightened to 4 orb of fire, 1 empty slot.
Items: Headband of intelligence +2 (4000), mastercrafted light crossbow (335) 40 bolts (2), 10 tanglefoot bags (self made, 250), ring of protection +1 (2000), 3 paladin made potions of lesser restoration (150) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300), 3 scrolls of false life.
Cast, mage armour, resistance, darkvision, protection from arrows, false life from scroll.
Against manticore:
Paul and the manticore see each other, and roll for initiatives. I win initiatives (75%) and move in close enough to throw a tangle foot bag at him. I hit (70%) and the manticore fails its save (60%) falling to the ground, taking about 7 points of falling damage. The manticore looses a volley of spikes on me, and I take 3 hits (270%) and lose 19.5 points off of my protection from arrows.
I fiery burst the manticore, which passes the save (95%) and takes 7 damage. It attacks me with more spikes, getting 2 hits (540%) dealing 13 damage.
I cast fire burst on the manticore, and it fails the save (130%) and takes 14 damage. He once against spikes me, hitting 3 more times, (810%) dealing me 19.5 points of damage. I’ve lost my protection from arrows, and have lost 2 temporary hit points.
I fiery burst the manticore, it passes the save (165%) and takes 7 damage. He flings spikes at me again, and I abrupt jaunt out of there way.
I throw a tanglefoot bag at the beast, which misses (140%) and the manticore scrapes off the old one, as it is now out of spikes.
The old tangle foot bag wears off, and I throw another one, which hits (200%) and it fails the save (225%) sticking it to the ground. The manticore rips it apart as a full round action.
I fiery burst the manticore again, and it fails the save (255%) taking 14 points of damage. I move back after this, to 40 feet away. Manticore moves in 30 feet. If it starts trying to run away, I shoot it to death with my crossbow, and with fiery bursts.
I use fiery burst again, it passes the save (290%) taking 7 damage. I move back out of its range again. It moves towards me.
I use fiery burst, which kill the manticore (225%) with 14 damage.
To note, if it used its fly move, I could always move to not be in its charge or move radiuses. This would not change the result. I bring up protection from evil, shield and resistance after the fight.
*shrug*
Snake has scent. It can find your caster even blind and will sooner or later hit you. If it gets you, you're dead. Also you can't see through the sleet storm to shoot it, although it's big enough that you probably can get a fireburst to land most of the time. I'm not sure enough about your other abilities or its speed to know whether it can actually get to you, but it should be heading right at you unless you've blocked scent somehow that I missed. If it is in fireburst range, your'e in scent range
Immediate magic is an immediate action. You can't use it when flatfooted. This probably means the rug eats you.
The fighter hits ac 23 gets through the 10/magic and slashing DR and deals enough damage to kill the critter before it just flys away and heals?
Well, he'd have to magic up his axe first. Then he'd have to hit. If he did hit though, he'd probably manage 6 damage yeah, no problem. Fast healing doesn't mean much when you only have 5hp.
There are some builds that can do 16 damage at level 1 too.
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Trait: Agressive
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
Fullplate (1500 gp)
Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (10 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
Wand of Faith Healing 20 charges (300 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 20 charges (300 gp) (SWIFT ACTION! WOOT) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) on Shield and Morningstar (200 gp) (Morningstar gets Faith healing)
Mundane Light Crossbow and 50 bolts (55 gp)
Single Weapon Capsule Retainer (100 gp)
Mundane Morning Star
6473 gp
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (500 gp)
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (490 gp)
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
5* Flaming Weapon Capsules - 150 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 250 gp
Consumable Gold Spent: 1590 gp
I make a Wisdom check to realize how bad soloing could be, and purchase a wand of restoration with 1 charge.
520 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8583 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2-1 =19, touch 9, FF 19
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +2
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 490 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Channelled Divine Shield (PHB 2) - DR 10/Evil
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Fail (35%), 10 gp.
CL: 8: Damage 2d12+4 - Ice.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success. Gain SR 12, Resist Energy All 10, and DR 5/magic for 12 hours.
Level 0 Spell: Cast Detect Magic, burning a Coutl Feather (-5% now)
Level 3 Spell: Cloud of Knives (PB2) - Coutl Feather - 30%, fail.
Level 2 Spell: Divine Retaliation (PHB 2) - Coutl Feather - 65%, success (CL 12)
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 0%, Fail.
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
I use the lesser rod of extend on the Favourable Sacrifice. Favourable Sacrifice lasts 24 hours this way, but can not be persisted.
1 full round action to fit and load my Weapon Capusle with quickflame.
Off to the dungeon. Say I find it, 4-5 hours later.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Night Shield, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain)
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
HP 41:
AC: 19, Touch 9, FF 19
Saves: 6/1/7
BAB: 3
Attack: +8, 2d12+7 (TOUCH, COLD), can add 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity damage for 1 round.
Divine Retaliation: Attacks at +16, deals 1d8+4 force damage.
Cloud of Knives: Attacks at +13, Magic for overcoming DR, 1d6+3 damage, 30 feet.
DR 10/Evil, DR 5/magic, SR 12, resist all elements 10.
Init: +2
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Trait: Agressive
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
Fullplate (1500 gp)
Large Shield with holy symbol painted on it (10 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
Wand of Faith Healing 20 charges (300 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 20 charges (300 gp) (SWIFT ACTION! WOOT) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) on Shield and Morningstar (200 gp) (Morningstar gets Faith healing)
Mundane Light Crossbow and 50 bolts (55 gp)
Single Weapon Capsule Retainer (100 gp)
Mundane Morning Star
6473 gp
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (500 gp)
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (490 gp)
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
5* Flaming Weapon Capsules - 150 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 250 gp
Consumable Gold Spent: 1590 gp
I make a Wisdom check to realize how bad soloing could be, and purchase a wand of restoration with 1 charge.
520 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8583 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2-1 =19, touch 9, FF 19
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +2
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 490 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Channelled Divine Shield (PHB 2) - DR 10/Evil
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Fail (35%), 10 gp.
CL: 8: Damage 2d12+4 - Ice.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success. Gain SR 12, Resist Energy All 10, and DR 5/magic for 12 hours.
Level 0 Spell: Cast Detect Magic, burning a Coutl Feather (-5% now)
Level 3 Spell: Cloud of Knives (PB2) - Coutl Feather - 30%, fail.
Level 2 Spell: Divine Retaliation (PHB 2) - Coutl Feather - 65%, success (CL 12)
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 0%, Fail.
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
I use the lesser rod of extend on the Favourable Sacrifice. Favourable Sacrifice lasts 24 hours this way, but can not be persisted.
1 full round action to fit and load my Weapon Capusle with quickflame.
Off to the dungeon. Say I find it, 4-5 hours later.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Night Shield, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain)
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
HP 41:
AC: 19, Touch 9, FF 19
Saves: 6/1/7
BAB: 3
Attack: +8, 2d12+7 (TOUCH, COLD), can add 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity damage for 1 round.
Divine Retaliation: Attacks at +16, deals 1d8+4 force damage.
Cloud of Knives: Attacks at +13, Magic for overcoming DR, 1d6+3 damage, 30 feet.
DR 10/Evil, DR 5/magic, SR 12, resist all elements 10.
Init: +2
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
Druids can cast Shilellagh, giving them a magical 1-handed 2d6 damage weapon (assuming they're medium sized), at 1st level. Most druids I've gamed with prepare this regularly. They are likely to miss, but they certainly aren't guaranteed to die to one of these things.
They said DR/ slashing and magic. That means you need a magical slashing weapon.
Shilellagh is pretty sweet.
However, it is still a staff: a blunt weapon.
I don’t know what a Ghoul Glyph is, but with 12/7/13 as my saves, the odds are in my favour regardless.
Nope. It's in the spell compendium and Libris mortis and while the wording is slightly different, the part where your character just dies, no save, is not.
Doesn't matter if you save. You're paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds = 5 in this challenge, or maybe 6. All a saving throw does for you is make you not stink up the room.
That's why it is unfair in a solo challenge. Unless you are somehow immune to paralysis or have some purely mental actions you can take to save yourself or somehow detect AND disable the magical trap spell, you just get coup de graced before you can move. I guess SR could save you too.
The guys who send summoned monsters ahead or animal companions or whatever can survive this, but truly solo characters probably can not. Also it isn't a separate CR trap, it's just a spell one of the bad guys happens to know so he used it on his lair.
This is right up there with Greenbound summoning in "Stuff I learned exactly why it is so dumb on this thread that I'd only vaguely heard of before" heh. This thread is very educational.
Here's the two versions:
Show
Ghoul Glyph (as shown in Libris Mortis, pg 66)
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard: 2
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 minute
range: touch
Effect: Only 1 glyph per 5' square is possible.
Duration: permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude, partial
SR: yes
Once created, a glyph is permanent until discharged.
When activated, the glyph paralyzes it's first victim for 1d6+2 rounds. There is no save for this effect. Additionally, if the subject fails a fortitude saving throw, the paralyzed victim exudes a carrion stench that causes retching and nausea in a 10' radius. All those in the radiu s must also make saves or take a -2 penalty on attacks,weapon damage, saves, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis ends.
The Ghoul Glyph effecst any creature that moves to within 2' of it. Unaffected (not triggered) by such things as probing though it can be dispelled. Read Magic identifies a ghoul glyph with a DC 13 spellcraft check. A rogue can search for and disable a ghoul glyph with a DC 27.
Ghoul Glyph: spell compendium
Necromancy
Level: Hunger 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: Permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
The faint, green glow of the glyph flares to life. A sickly green light fills the room, illuminating the paralyzed forms of its victims, and bringing with it the stench of death.
You inscribe a glyph, approximately 1 foot across, that paralyzes any living creature of Large or smaller size that comes within 5 feet of the glyph. You can scribe the glyph to be visible as faintly glowing lines, or invisible. You can inscribe a ghoul glyph on a portable object, but if the object is moved more than 5 feet, the glyph fades.
Conditions for triggering a ghoul glyph are stringent. It takes effect on any creature except yourself that moves within 5 feet. It affects invisible creatures normally but is not triggered by those that travel past it ethereally. Only a single ghoul glyph can be inscribed in a 5-foot square.
Ghoul glyphs cannot be affected or bypassed by such means as physical or magical probing, though they can be dispelled. Mislead and nondetection can fool a ghoul glyph.
Read magic allows identification of a ghoul glyph with a successful DC 13 Spellcraft check, if the glyph is noticed before it is activated. A rogue can use the Search skill to find a ghoul glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 27.
When a glyph is activated, the target is paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds. Additionally, if the target fails a Fortitude save, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes distress in all creatures within a 10-foot radius. Those in the radius, including the target, must make a Fortitude save or take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis effect wears off.
Material Component: You trace the glyph with earth from a ghoul's lair.
Ghoul Glyph (as shown in Libris Mortis, pg 66)
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard: 2
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 minute
range: touch
Effect: Only 1 glyph per 5' square is possible.
Duration: permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude, partial
SR: yes
Once created, a glyph is permanent until discharged.
When activated, the glyph paralyzes it's first victim for 1d6+2 rounds. There is no save for this effect. Additionally, if the subject fails a fortitude saving throw, the paralyzed victim exudes a carrion stench that causes retching and nausea in a 10' radius. All those in the radiu s must also make saves or take a -2 penalty on attacks,weapon damage, saves, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis ends.
The Ghoul Glyph effecst any creature that moves to within 2' of it. Unaffected (not triggered) by such things as probing though it can be dispelled. Read Magic identifies a ghoul glyph with a DC 13 spellcraft check. A rogue can search for and disable a ghoul glyph with a DC 27.
Ghoul Glyph: spell compendium
Necromancy
Level: Hunger 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: Permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
The faint, green glow of the glyph flares to life. A sickly green light fills the room, illuminating the paralyzed forms of its victims, and bringing with it the stench of death.
You inscribe a glyph, approximately 1 foot across, that paralyzes any living creature of Large or smaller size that comes within 5 feet of the glyph. You can scribe the glyph to be visible as faintly glowing lines, or invisible. You can inscribe a ghoul glyph on a portable object, but if the object is moved more than 5 feet, the glyph fades.
Conditions for triggering a ghoul glyph are stringent. It takes effect on any creature except yourself that moves within 5 feet. It affects invisible creatures normally but is not triggered by those that travel past it ethereally. Only a single ghoul glyph can be inscribed in a 5-foot square.
Ghoul glyphs cannot be affected or bypassed by such means as physical or magical probing, though they can be dispelled. Mislead and nondetection can fool a ghoul glyph.
Read magic allows identification of a ghoul glyph with a successful DC 13 Spellcraft check, if the glyph is noticed before it is activated. A rogue can use the Search skill to find a ghoul glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 27.
When a glyph is activated, the target is paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds. Additionally, if the target fails a Fortitude save, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes distress in all creatures within a 10-foot radius. Those in the radius, including the target, must make a Fortitude save or take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis effect wears off.
Material Component: You trace the glyph with earth from a ghoul's lair.
nitpicks on Joe's conjurer.
Snake has scent. It can find your caster even blind and will sooner or later hit you. If it gets you, you're dead. Also you can't see through the sleet storm to shoot it, although it's big enough that you probably can get a fireburst to land most of the time. I'm not sure enough about your other abilities or its speed to know whether it can actually get to you, but it should be heading right at you unless you've blocked scent somehow that I missed. If it is in fireburst range, your'e in scent range
Immediate magic is an immediate action. You can't use it when flatfooted. This probably means the rug eats you.
Snake never got close enough to attack me, as his move was reduced to 10 (then 5) feet. My sleet storm is invisible, so I should be able to see through it. I'll redo the rug with the immediacy in mind, but all that happens is I take 7 more damage, and still win. I just use 1 or two more potions of cure light.
Snake never got close enough to attack me, as his move was reduced to 10 feet. My sleet storm is invisible, so I should be able to see through it. I'll redo the rug with the immediacy in mind, but all that happens is I take 7 more damage, and still win. I just use 1 or two more potions of cure light.
my bad I missed invisible spell. So neither you nor the snake has vision impaired. Got it. My bias for using sleet storm as a 3.0 darkness spell is showing.
immediacy is a teleport type spell and gets you out of the grapple? if so then yeah, looks good.
Nah, it's not a spell. It's the class ability immediate magic, conjurers version being the abrupt jaunt. Dimension door 10 feet as an immediate action. I think I had it listed as one of my class substitutions, and if I didn't, I should have.
You did. I misstated. I knew what it was but said spell, not spell-like. It's got some limits though. # of times per day = int modifier, and most importantly, spell-like ability. Can you do the 20+spell level concentration check reliably at level 5? The reserve feat is SU and works fine in a grapple but I doubt you want to ground zero it while being constricted.
If you can, then sure, you can probably beat the rug. If not, you should play it out and see if you can get out and get your cycle of spells working.
Shilellagh is pretty sweet.
However, it is still a staff: a blunt weapon.
Umm... yeah. I feel pretty silly. :P
You can put it on a club, too, which I think is a better idea, since you can use a shield, and most druids don't have massive str to benefit from two-handing a weapon without wildshape.
You did. I misstated. I knew what it was but said spell, not spell-like. It's got some limits though. # of times per day = int modifier, and most importantly, spell-like ability. Can you do the 20+spell level concentration check reliably at level 5? The reserve feat is SU and works fine in a grapple but I doubt you want to ground zero it while being constricted.
Great thing about immediate things, is I get one once on my round as a swift, and once again just before the rug can crush me to death. I don't get the 20 on the first go, but I exceed 65% on the second easily enough.
Otto, can you say what the poison the trolls have does, for people trying to run it?
It says. DC 17; 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con
Some of them were costly, required alignments, draw backs, etc. I used the best I could. The incarnum one is spectacular though.
Favourable Sacrifice also depends on how many GP components you sacrifice.
Oooh, Ghoul Glyph is plain nasty. 5 rounds of CDG from the warrior.
What's that, 4d4+6? Averages 6 damage per round.
:D 30 damage? Oh yes, I can take that.
I guess I woudn't get reflex saves, but Frick wouldn't want to waste spells on a dead target anyways, would he?
I guess if we assume the mage sees me as trapped, it works. If the mage wastes spells on a dead target, it doesn't work.
Frick and Frack encounter again:
Show
Encounter 3
Frick and Frack again.
I pass the fort save for nausea, but am stunned for 5.5 rounds (5).
Frick wouldn't want to waste spells on a dead target, so he'll laugh at me.
Frack spends 5 rounds using Coup De Grace, dealing 30 damage after DR (4d4+6 = 16, -10 each time). 11/41
I get 5 knife attacks at +13 against 19 AC. (75/150/225/300/375)
4 hits, dealing 4d6+12 = 26 halved = 13.
I get out, much to Frick's shock. The shocked and appalled Frick hits me with a cold blast - I make the save (70/50), taking no damage.
I realize I am in dire straits and draw my morning star, using a charge of faith healing: 20/41
Frick tries to hit me with a web, succeeds.
What his face can no longer CDG me.
I faith heal. 29/41
It will slightly change my consumable list, but as nasty as ghoul glyph is, it won't kill me.
Encounter 3
Frick and Frack again.
I pass the fort save for nausea, but am stunned for 5.5 rounds (5).
Frick wouldn't want to waste spells on a dead target, so he'll laugh at me.
Frack spends 5 rounds using Coup De Grace, dealing 30 damage after DR (4d4+6 = 16, -10 each time). 11/41
I get 5 knife attacks at +13 against 19 AC. (75/150/225/300/375)
4 hits, dealing 4d6+12 = 26 halved = 13.
I get out, much to Frick's shock. The shocked and appalled Frick hits me with a cold blast - I make the save (70/50), taking no damage.
I realize I am in dire straits and draw my morning star, using a charge of faith healing: 20/41
Frick tries to hit me with a web, succeeds.
What his face can no longer CDG me.
I faith heal. 29/41
It will slightly change my consumable list, but as nasty as ghoul glyph is, it won't kill me.
However you could do something like this:
swift action jaunt 10'
Withdraw 60' (as you are barely in its reach)
it should have only 20' movement rate (no legs, wheels) so you're then set up to do your thing.
As long as you can make the concentration check before it kills you, you win.
Frack will start magic missiling you or breathing on you as soon as you don't die from the first hit. When I did it, Frack delayed to see the result of the coup. (they're in a crypt. Most things there can't be couped. they'd have a plan for that). I'd have frack magic missile till it fizzled vs your SR, then he'd switch to breathing the 4d6 cones.
You get reflex saves, but your dex is considered zero, so your refl save is pretty bad.
I suspect you're probably hosed and that encounter shows why the animal companion leading builds are better solo...more critters = 1 bad condition doesn't kill you. Still you should play it out. It sounds like it's kind of exciting in a way....broken buffs vs broken trap spell
I don't think this is how it works Meyer_William. Sanctum Spell is a meta-magic feat with a level adjustment of +0. The effect of the meta-magic feat is that the spell, when cast, is considered +/- 1 spell level depending upon whether you are in your "sanctum".
If you are creating an spell trigger item, and want the meta-magic effect to apply the spell you are placing in the wand, you base the cost on the spell plus the meta-magic level adjustment (in this case +0). So for the cost calculation, these spells are still considered to be their normal spell level. If you want a wand of silent magic missiles, you figure the cost with spell level 2 (MM is 1, +1 for silent). If you want a wand of energy substitution (cold) fireballs, you figure the cost with spell level 3 (fireball is 3, +0 for energy sub.). So I think your wands will end up costing considerably more. Still, there might be a viable build idea here...
The text of the pearl of power is considered to be broken (because the way it is worded it sounds like a level 1 pearl can recall a level 2 sanctum spell that was cast outside the sanctum previously that day), but that is another story.
I disagree. If the sanctum spell is a level 1 for him (pointing), it is a level 1 spell for me. I don't see how/why it could be different.
Now, keep in mind, that I think this is horribly cheesy and would never allow it in my campaigns, however ... I don't see the difference between the pearls of power and this approach. And yes, I could do a very similar character build without this, but I am trying to replicate the cheese ...
With 10' you are still in the reach (you start at zero).
However you could do something like this:
swift action jaunt 10'
Withdraw 60' (as you are barely in its reach)
it should have only 20' movement rate (no legs, wheels) so you're then set up to do your thing.
As long as you can make the concentration check before it kills you, you win.
Ah, thought it attacked as soon as I provoked. Still, that works fine in the end, so I won't really worry about it.
Really tired when I made this one, so most has some big errors of some sort.ShowRoy the conjurer
Fire bloodline
Specialist, focused specialist, immediate magic variants.
Feats
Flaw: flash frost spell
Flaw: invisible spell
Human: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus: conjuration
Level 3: extend spell
Level 4: improved initiative
Level5: Fiery burst
Noncombatant, feeble.
Spell gifted , quick
Stats:
Stre: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Inte: 17 (18/20) level increase.
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Saves: F 3, R 3, W 4
AC=15/19/21
HP=14
Spells prepared
0-3 orb of acid, 3 resistance
1: Mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, 2 grease
2: protection from arrows, energy protection, 3 glitterdust, darkvision
3: 2 extended, invisible, flashfrost, heightened sleet storms, 1 heightened to 4 orb of fire, 1 empty slot.
Items: Headband of intelligence +2 (4000), mastercrafted light crossbow (335) 40 bolts (2), 10 tanglefoot bags (self made, 250), ring of protection +1 (2000), 3 paladin made potions of lesser restoration (150) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300)
Cast, mage armour, resistance, darkvision, protection from arrows.
Why are you getting protection from arrows cast on you? Is this normal procedure for your character? (It might be)
Hours per level and the ambush always starts at a range.
What is spell gifted (quick)
Traits.
What is a bloodline? Is this how you get feats at level 4+5?
UA variant for races, loses levels at 6, and I think 12 and 18. Grants a skill bonus and a feat, as well as other abilities as I go up in level. Got it slightly wrong though. I wanted air, not fire.
What is flash frost spell?
Cold descriptor spells add two damage per spell level to the normal affects.
What is invisible spell?
Spell affects are invisible.
Why does the manticore move in towards you, its spikes are a really long range increment.
Why does it have to land? It can spike you 4 times.
Because unless it has enough spellcraft to determine the caster level of a spell I cast an hour ago when he wasn't looking, he should assume that I'm immune to them. Lands because he can't full attack from the air.
Did you make your spot check to see it (the snake)?
I don't recall reading that it had any concealment with which to hide. As I have darkvision, low light is not sufficient for it to try.
The radius of sleet storm is 40' ... and it had to travel 80', so you were 55' away from the snake when you moved backwards 30' and then cast it with the snake on the furthest edge of it?
Yes. Actually, I started 60 away, when I would have first seen it.
Duration of sleet storm is 1 round/level. The snake is hit for more than 5 rounds of damage. Did I miss something?
Extend.
+7 (+5+2) vs AC 20? (10+4+4+2) isn't that better than a 25% chance?
Yeah. I'll redo that, as I had thought the wraith had a +4 for some reason, though it does not change the conclusion.
When you are grappled, you take 14 damage, dropping you down to 0, what do you do to prevent death?
You only have so many magic jumps ...
You need to make a con check to jump. If it pins you, can you jump?
I can indeed make it if I am pinned. I pass the second concentration (45%, 90%) and then can move away. All before the second attack, and before the pin. Drink a potion, move away on my turn. Then bomb it to death. I can do all of this even if disabled.
Isn't this more than 5 rounds of sleet storm? Or did I misread?
Extend. I also would get 6 rounds due to spell gifted, and I had cast sleet storm twice, not once.
Probably did forget something important in here though.
Hours per level and the ambush always starts at a range.
Protection from arrows at CL5 gives a caster DR10/magic for 50 hp.
The wizard AC is 15. Manticore shots 6 spikes with +8 for 1d8+2 (70% chances to hit)
First volley: 4 hits (20% of a 5th) 26 damage avoided
Second volley: 4 hits (40% of a 5th) 26 damage, wizard takes 2, the rest is stopped. 12 remain.
Third volley: wizard dies, even though the manticore is entangled it still hits too many times.
Kind of metagamey for the manticore to keep wasting a limited resource when it does not know if I can kill it or not, whether or not it will fight something else that day, and when he's seen me being invulnerable to them. Or to posit it another way, if I made a character that is immune to fire, and fought an enemy wizard, does the enemy wizard keep trying with fire to wear down my protection, or does he switch to tactic B? Unless you know for sure whether or not I'm immune or simply protected, almost all people I've seen will switch tactics.
I would agree if the manticore could do anything else, but it cannot do anything but launch spikes because the wizard keeps hindering its movement. It is getting killed, why should it do anything else that keep firing spikes?
As for a fire wizard fighting someone else that he knows is not usually resistant to fire? Sure as hell he is going to keep flaming him if he has no other option. After all many protection effects have a limit of damage absorption that can be overcome (resist energy) or protect only for a set number of hp of damage (protection from energy) that can be exhausted.
I would agree if the manticore could do anything else, but it cannot do anything but launch spikes because the wizard keeps hindering its movement. It is getting killed, why should it do anything else that keep firing spikes?
As for a fire wizard fighting someone else that he knows is not usually resistant to fire? Sure as hell he is going to keep flaming him if he has no other option. After all many protection effects have a limit of damage absorption that can be overcome (resist energy) or protect only for a set number of hp of damage (protection from energy) that can be exhausted.
Actually, in both cases, the person would give up and try to reason for their life. I don't really see that as a listed option anywhere, but it is actually what one should assume will happen. Don't you think the manticore would likely surrender in this situation? It seems to be the most logical thing to do. If it did have to spike me again, I would probably cast shield and protection from evil, getting me an AC of 22, reducing the damage to little enough that over a little more time, I kill it, in the exact same way.
I still posit, however, that it would likely not want to waste resources in something it thinks is futile. Had I not had it close in melee, I think the only other realistic option is to have it fly away.
I'll use this mix going forward though, and I need to redo the first adventure because my inexperience with the dice pool messed up the results anyway. The main difference is I added three MIC items - two 10 charge wands and the anklets of translocation. I also decided it was a good idea to have some "set vs charge" weapons and made them standard issue.
Final Bela, Level 5 Human Elite Array (statbump strength)
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 wis10 Cha 8
normal hp 43 saves F9 R3 W2 AC25 or 20
rage hp 58 saves F12 R3 W5 AC22 or 17
L1 Barbarian1 - extra rage, reckless rage,Lion totem Substitution
L1 Fighter1 - power attack
L2 Fighter2 - combat expertise, brutal throw
L4 Hexblade1 - Hexblade curse DC11
L5 Ranger1 - Tracking, Spiritual Connection substitution,
Favored enemy Elementals
Survival 8 (8 ranks)
Ride 11 (8 ranks, synergy)
Handle Animal 7 (8 ranks)
Climb 5 (7 ranks, includes ACP-5)
Swim 0 (7 ranks, includes ACP-10)
Jump 0 (6 ranks, includes ACP-5, speed -4)
815 MW Blue Ice Longsword (frostburn +1 nonmagical enh to damage slashing)
88 Silver Flail
10 Cold Iron Longspear
20 Cold Iron Lance
15 Trident
0 sling
0 Oak Club
12 6 cold iron javelins
2650 fullplate+1
50 armor spikes
1180 tower shield+1
1400 anklet of translocation
400 400 heavy warhorse
34 34 saddle, saddlebags, bit, bridle
8 8 cold weather clothing
4 Backpack, 4d food, waterskin, bedroll, winter blanket
4.5 hammer, 10 pitons, 100' hemp rope, grapple hook
5 flint steel, crowbar, shovel
6 6 sunrods
20.5 1 alch fire and 5 flask oil
150 6 flask holy water
60 6 flask acid
50 tanglefoot bag
50 antitoxin
22 smokestick and 2 tindertwigs
100 oil bless weapon
50 oil shillelagh
50 oil of magic weapon
50 potion shield of faith
50 potion enlarge person
50 potion reduce person
50 potion mage armor
50 potion of protect from chaos
300 6 potions faith healing
750 wand clw
150 wand of prot evil, 10 charges
300 6xoil of magic stone.
Edit: Forgot to make room for antitoxin. Dropped the third wand and bought 2 potions and antitoxin.
Edit: Forgot the sling
Edit: Put in class substitution stuff in anticipation of L7 Bela
ECL5 adventure #1 (the main thread)
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14588659&postcount=1724
CR5 Hydra challenge, with a prototype of Final Bela with no anklet translocation but instead hydra-specific consumables
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14579096&postcount=1616
I did the CR6 version too but didn't post results. Bela died in half the encounters and ended up having the Lamia charm him and trick him into being eaten by the Pyrohydra.
Level 4 Final Bela after a fatal accidnt, recovering his levels in CR3 and CR4 dungeons
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14591366&postcount=1739
CR5 Full Moon
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14852040&postcount=2860
Creepy Things #1:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14594794&postcount=1758
Creepy Things #2 - used a prototype of Final Bela without anklet of translocation but with a few extra consumables
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14580725&postcount=1627
Planar challenge
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14598194&postcount=1800
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14598194&postcount=1833
Also did the "Just Silly" adventure, didn't post it. Won 2nd and 3rd challenges easily, was stomped flat in first challenge and was unable to kill the threat fast enough in final challenge.
Level 7 Bela
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14675796&postcount=2397
Third time is the charm. In many ways this one did better than even Bela on Drugs, although needing a restoration in a hurry drove up the consumable burn. I also did the manticore encounter completely differently. I do NOT use the horse as a flak jacket! This time I protected my equine friend. This approach did prove riskier, and doing it this way is a "tie" rather than clear win..a late crit by the manticore nearly did me in and forced me to burn a rage.
You will see me drink a lot of potions that expire before they are used, or are wasted on this dungeon. I'm trying to be consistent with "creepy things" behavior, although not as proactively casting prot evil in absence of known undead. Potions and scroll charges that are used in combat often expire before it is over, forcing Bela to change tactics.
Manticore:
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As he gets within 10 minutes of the cave, Bela feeds his horse potion of mage armor
Manticore spots him at 180' and opens up with spikes in surprise round
6x+8 vs AC24 =150, 2 hits for 13
manticore wins init +2 vs +0 60%
manticore flies, more spikes
6x+8 vs AC24 =300, 1 hits for 6
bela drinks potion of faith healing, moves 50' to cave on horse
manticore 57 Bela 35
more spikes…Bela ride check horse as cover, pass 80%
6x+8 vs AC29 = 330 - all miss
bela drinks potion of faith healing, full health, 50' to cave
manticore 57 Bela 43
manticore switches to mount
6x+8 vs AC18 660 4 hits for 22 damage
bela rides his horse inside cave, dismounts in front of horse
Manticore has no charge lane, has to land and come
inside.,fighitng a straight melee battle, no flying. It
flies down and readies to attackif Bela gets within 5'
Bela casts prot evil on himself with wand.
Manticore charges +12 vs AC27 miss 690
Bela draws sword, slashes, power attack 2, +5 vs AC15 hit 55% for 10
manticore 47 bela 43
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC27 miss 730 bte 8 vs 29 miss 740
Bela slashes, +7 vs AC17 hit 110% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC27 one hit 10hp 780 bte 8 vs 27 miss 790
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 155% hit for 9
manticore 38 bela 33
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 miss 810 bte 8 vs 29 miss 815
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 200% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 miss 835 bte 8 vs 29 miss 840
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 245% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 hit 860 for 10 bite 8 vs 29 miss 865
Bela slashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 hit 285% hit for 8
manticore 30 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 880
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 325% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 895
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 365% hit for 9
manticore 21 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 910
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 405% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 925
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 445% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 940
Belaslashes, expertise 5, +2 vs AC17 465% hit for 8
prot evil expires
manticore 13 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 955 crit for 20
bela rages, power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 505% miss
manticore 13 bela 18
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC22 miss 1070 hit bite for 7
bela power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 545% miss
manticore 13 bela 11
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC22 miss 1185 hit claw for 10
bela power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 585% hit for 16
manticore -3, bela 1, horse 8
bela drinks 2 potion of faith healing, heals self and horse, cracks
sunrod, drinks antitoxin, pot remove fear and uses 2 magic stone oils
4 potion faith healing, pot mage armor, 13 chg wand clw, rage
remove fear, 2 magic stone oils, sunrod, prot evil wand charge, antitoxin
As he gets within 10 minutes of the cave, Bela feeds his horse potion of mage armor
Manticore spots him at 180' and opens up with spikes in surprise round
6x+8 vs AC24 =150, 2 hits for 13
manticore wins init +2 vs +0 60%
manticore flies, more spikes
6x+8 vs AC24 =300, 1 hits for 6
bela drinks potion of faith healing, moves 50' to cave on horse
manticore 57 Bela 35
more spikes…Bela ride check horse as cover, pass 80%
6x+8 vs AC29 = 330 - all miss
bela drinks potion of faith healing, full health, 50' to cave
manticore 57 Bela 43
manticore switches to mount
6x+8 vs AC18 660 4 hits for 22 damage
bela rides his horse inside cave, dismounts in front of horse
Manticore has no charge lane, has to land and come
inside.,fighitng a straight melee battle, no flying. It
flies down and readies to attackif Bela gets within 5'
Bela casts prot evil on himself with wand.
Manticore charges +12 vs AC27 miss 690
Bela draws sword, slashes, power attack 2, +5 vs AC15 hit 55% for 10
manticore 47 bela 43
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC27 miss 730 bte 8 vs 29 miss 740
Bela slashes, +7 vs AC17 hit 110% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC27 one hit 10hp 780 bte 8 vs 27 miss 790
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 155% hit for 9
manticore 38 bela 33
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 miss 810 bte 8 vs 29 miss 815
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 200% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 miss 835 bte 8 vs 29 miss 840
Bela slashes, expertise 2, +5 vs AC17 hit 245% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 vs AC29 hit 860 for 10 bite 8 vs 29 miss 865
Bela slashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 hit 285% hit for 8
manticore 30 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 880
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 325% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 895
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 365% hit for 9
manticore 21 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 910
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 405% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 925
Belaslashes, expertise 3, +4 vs AC17 445% miss
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 940
Belaslashes, expertise 5, +2 vs AC17 465% hit for 8
prot evil expires
manticore 13 bela 23
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC30 miss 955 crit for 20
bela rages, power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 505% miss
manticore 13 bela 18
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC22 miss 1070 hit bite for 7
bela power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 545% miss
manticore 13 bela 11
Manticore 2 claw +10 and bite +8 vs AC22 miss 1185 hit claw for 10
bela power attack for 5 +5 vs AC17 585% hit for 16
manticore -3, bela 1, horse 8
bela drinks 2 potion of faith healing, heals self and horse, cracks
sunrod, drinks antitoxin, pot remove fear and uses 2 magic stone oils
4 potion faith healing, pot mage armor, 13 chg wand clw, rage
remove fear, 2 magic stone oils, sunrod, prot evil wand charge, antitoxin
Ghoul GlyphNope. It's in the spell compendium and Libris mortis and while the wording is slightly different, the part where your character just dies, no save, is not.
Doesn't matter if you save. You're paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds = 5 in this challenge, or maybe 6. All a saving throw does for you is make you not stink up the room.
That's why it is unfair in a solo challenge. Unless you are somehow immune to paralysis or have some purely mental actions you can take to save yourself or somehow detect AND disable the magical trap spell, you just get coup de graced before you can move. I guess SR could save you too.
The guys who send summoned monsters ahead or animal companions or whatever can survive this, but truly solo characters probably can not. Also it isn't a separate CR trap, it's just a spell one of the bad guys happens to know so he used it on his lair.
This is right up there with Greenbound summoning in "Stuff I learned exactly why it is so dumb on this thread that I'd only vaguely heard of before" heh. This thread is very educational.
Here's the two versions:Show
Ghoul Glyph (as shown in Libris Mortis, pg 66)
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard: 2
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 minute
range: touch
Effect: Only 1 glyph per 5' square is possible.
Duration: permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude, partial
SR: yes
Once created, a glyph is permanent until discharged.
When activated, the glyph paralyzes it's first victim for 1d6+2 rounds. There is no save for this effect. Additionally, if the subject fails a fortitude saving throw, the paralyzed victim exudes a carrion stench that causes retching and nausea in a 10' radius. All those in the radiu s must also make saves or take a -2 penalty on attacks,weapon damage, saves, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis ends.
The Ghoul Glyph effecst any creature that moves to within 2' of it. Unaffected (not triggered) by such things as probing though it can be dispelled. Read Magic identifies a ghoul glyph with a DC 13 spellcraft check. A rogue can search for and disable a ghoul glyph with a DC 27.
Ghoul Glyph: spell compendium
Necromancy
Level: Hunger 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: Permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
The faint, green glow of the glyph flares to life. A sickly green light fills the room, illuminating the paralyzed forms of its victims, and bringing with it the stench of death.
You inscribe a glyph, approximately 1 foot across, that paralyzes any living creature of Large or smaller size that comes within 5 feet of the glyph. You can scribe the glyph to be visible as faintly glowing lines, or invisible. You can inscribe a ghoul glyph on a portable object, but if the object is moved more than 5 feet, the glyph fades.
Conditions for triggering a ghoul glyph are stringent. It takes effect on any creature except yourself that moves within 5 feet. It affects invisible creatures normally but is not triggered by those that travel past it ethereally. Only a single ghoul glyph can be inscribed in a 5-foot square.
Ghoul glyphs cannot be affected or bypassed by such means as physical or magical probing, though they can be dispelled. Mislead and nondetection can fool a ghoul glyph.
Read magic allows identification of a ghoul glyph with a successful DC 13 Spellcraft check, if the glyph is noticed before it is activated. A rogue can use the Search skill to find a ghoul glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 27.
When a glyph is activated, the target is paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds. Additionally, if the target fails a Fortitude save, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes distress in all creatures within a 10-foot radius. Those in the radius, including the target, must make a Fortitude save or take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks until the paralysis effect wears off.
Material Component: You trace the glyph with earth from a ghoul's lair.
Hours per level and the ambush always starts at a range.
Again, you do not know that there is the manticore. So my question stands, is this normal procedure for your character? If the answer is yes, my objection disappears.
Traits.
And WHERE are these traits from? They are not listed on pages 88-92 of unearthed arcana.
UA variant for races, loses levels at 6, and I think 12 and 18. Grants a skill bonus and a feat, as well as other abilities as I go up in level. Got it slightly wrong though. I wanted air, not fire.
Ah, so the level 5 character doesn't have to pay for them, as the bill comes due at level 6. I see and like.
Because unless it has enough spellcraft to determine the caster level of a spell I cast an hour ago when he wasn't looking, he should assume that I'm immune to them. Lands because he can't full attack from the air.
What is the difference between the manticore who needs a 20 to hit the dwarven ancestor builds (and misses the first volley, but damages the PC for a smidgeon during the second volley) and the manticore who is attacking you? It is not in danger from you (no missile attacks - you cannot hit it with the tanglefoot back until / unless it gets really close) and it really doesn't cost it anything.
I don't recall reading that it had any concealment with which to hide. As I have darkvision, low light is not sufficient for it to try.
It has a +10 to hide, and from the original description of the encounter, you start close to each other, not 55-60 feet away.
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You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. Dire badger around the corner.
(replace Dire Badger with the snake)
You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. Dire badger around the corner.
(replace Dire Badger with the snake)
On another note, doesn't a DMM spell cost only the actual spell level, but give a full effect when used to in making a magic item?
No, it is the same for sudden metamagic feats.
I disagree. If the sanctum spell is a level 1 for him (pointing), it is a level 1 spell for me. I don't see how/why it could be different.
Now, keep in mind, that I think this is horribly cheesy and would never allow it in my campaigns, however ... I don't see the difference between the pearls of power and this approach. And yes, I could do a very similar character build without this, but I am trying to replicate the cheese ...
Actually Meyer_William, these two things are completely different. Please read what I wrote. I shall attempt to explain it to you in greater detail.
When you create a magic item holding a spell with meta-magic applied to it, you compute the cost based upon spell level + meta-magic level adjustment. The level adjustment for Sanctum Spell is +0. If you made a wand of Sanctum Glitterdust at CL3 it would cost (2+0) x 3 x 750gp (fully charged). If you then used that wand inside your “sanctum”, the save DC would be set as if it were a level 3 spell. If you then used that wand outside your “sanctum”, the save DC would be set as if it were a level 1 spell. But the cost to create does not change; at the time of creation, the game doesn’t know or care whether you will be inside or outside of your sanctum at the time the item will be used (and in fact, it may get used some in both places). Fortunately, the item creation rules don’t care about it.
Now, the pearl of power is an entirely different story.
Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).
Many have argued in the past, that the way this item interacts with sanctum spell is as follows : If you cast a 2nd level Sanctum Spell outside your sanctum (thus it was a 1st level spell when you cast it), then a 1st level pearl of power can be used to recall it to memory. If you cast a 2nd level Sanctum Spell inside your sanctum (thus it was a 3rd level spell when you cast it), then a 3rd level pearl of power can be used to recall it to memory.
I must admit I am not sure if the Sage/CustServ/FAQ has actually backed this up. Perhaps, someone else would like to do that? I assume the person posting the build had maybe researched this topic?
Personally, I think using the pearl of power this way is questionable. But the rules for item creation are clear at least. This is certainly not a simple case of “pointing at the other guy and saying if he does it, I get to do it too.” There is a huge difference in the rules for activating a pearl of power’s ability, and the rules for creating spell trigger items holding meta-magicked spells.
No, it is the same for sudden metamagic feats.
Just chiming in that I agree with Meyer_William's interpretation, I believe it has been clarified (by Sage/CustServ/MainFAQ) that DMM and Sudden feats, while modifying the way a spell is cast (at the time it is cast), cannot be "abused" in item creation. In fact, I am not sure you can use them at all to affect item creation, though I think the Sage/CustServ may have suggested that the Sudden line be allowed to substitute and qualify for applying the normal feat to items (and that it would burn the daily use of the Sudden effect on a day spent performing the item creation?). The caster with DMM necessarily also has the base meta-magic feat to which the DMM would apply since it is a pre-requisite. Basically, there is no such thing as a wand of "sudden maximized" magic missiles, since sudden maximize is applied to a spell at casting time, not at preparation time (and not at item creation time). There is only the wand of maximized magic missiles (which is a 4th level spell and would cost 4 x 7 x 750 fully charged).
Also, you don't really need sanctum spell to make it work. Just cough up a little more gold. It's not fun to have interesting builds get bogged down in details over something not essential to the main strategy.
Even if you believe differently you can bet the vendors will charge full price even if they've found a way to make them cheaper. That's a slippery slope though, because then builds will start incorporting crafting feats to break costs and then you have to wonder if they should be level 4 for xp loss, blah blah.
When you create a magic item holding a spell with meta-magic applied to it, you compute the cost based upon spell level + meta-magic level adjustment. The level adjustment for Sanctum Spell is +0. If you made a wand of Sanctum Glitterdust at CL3 it would cost (2+0) x 3 x 750gp (fully charged). If you then used that wand inside your “sanctum”, the save DC would be set as if it were a level 3 spell. If you then used that wand outside your “sanctum”, the save DC would be set as if it were a level 1 spell. But the cost to create does not change; at the time of creation, the game doesn’t know or care whether you will be inside or outside of your sanctum at the time the item will be used (and in fact, it may get used some in both places). Fortunately, the item creation rules don’t care about it.
OK ... I understand what you are saying, as well as what you said before .. however, the issue is that sanctum spell adjusts the spell level, so wouldn't it be (for glitterdust) ... (2-1 sanctum)1 + 0 (metamagic)? Now, keep in mind that I only think this to be the case based on how we allowed the pearl of power entrant. Remember that you expend the spell while making it, so I do not see the distinction between casting the spell outside the sanctum or expending the spell (from crafting) outside the sanctum.
Also, you don't really need sanctum spell to make it work. Just cough up a little more gold. It's not fun to have interesting builds get bogged down in details over something not essential to the main strategy.
Um ... the over-all strategy of my new build is to try to use the various tricks he saw used. One of them was the pearl of power/sanctum spell approach. If this is not legal, tossing in some extra gold is not a problem (like the sword/etc that I have, but cannot use)
Even if you believe differently you can bet the vendors will charge full price even if they've found a way to make them cheaper. That's a slippery slope though, because then builds will start incorporting crafting feats to break costs and then you have to wonder if they should be level 4 for xp loss, blah blah.
Um, the pearl of power build DID incorporate crafting feats to break costs ... and I DID ask if it needed to be a lower level based on XP costs, however, this was allowed.
And no, vendors cannot charge a surcharge on some magic items and not others (that is a house rule). Note that one of the builds uses a paladin crafted item of lesser restoration as it is cheaper than the normal item.
Again, you do not know that there is the manticore. So my question stands, is this normal procedure for your character? If the answer is yes, my objection disappears.
All ambushes start at a range, not just manticores. It's a regular procedure for anyone out in the open, where I can at a moments notice be turned into a pin cushion.
And WHERE are these traits from? They are not listed on pages 88-92 of unearthed arcana.
In the SRD, under traits, in the "building a character" optional rules from unearthed arcana. Spellgifted and quick are in there.
What is the difference between the manticore who needs a 20 to hit the dwarven ancestor builds (and misses the first volley, but damages the PC for a smidgeon during the second volley) and the manticore who is attacking you? It is not in danger from you (no missile attacks - you cannot hit it with the tanglefoot back until / unless it gets really close) and it really doesn't cost it anything.
I think it should have run away from the dwarven ancestor builds as well. In the event it does spike me, I can simply boost my AC until he does not kill me with spikes.
It has a +10 to hide, and from the original description of the encounter, you start close to each other, not 55-60 feet away.Show
You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. Dire badger around the corner.
(replace Dire Badger with the snake)
while wandering through the hills I am a attacked by a manticore!
Show
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I dont, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
my first turn I cast invisability and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell i am no longer where the sound was coming from when the manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate untill the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I dont, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
my first turn I cast invisability and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell i am no longer where the sound was coming from when the manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate untill the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose
I think it should have run away from the dwarven ancestor builds as well. In the event it does spike me, I can simply boost my AC until he does not kill me with spikes.
Lets see.
Normal AC is 15 and the manticore goes first, 26 damage to spell. (420% hits).
In round two it can be boosted to 19 through shield, manticore still hits with 11s, so it hits 3 times for 19.5 hp. 4.5 hp remain. (300% hits, +20% from round 1).
In round 3 the wizard can cast protection from evil and raise AC to 21. Manticore needs 13s now (40%) and still hits 3 times, the wizard is at -1, dead. (240% hits, +20% from round 1 enough for a 3rd hit).
So no, you can't boost your AC anywhere close to enough to protect yourself.
And my boring old melee keeps doing pretty well so I'm happy. (including, yes, sucking up 18 spikes from the manticore and undoing it with one potion, so the manticore used its last 6 spikes on the mount)
To the person who is reduced to zero in the grapple, the problem with jaunting 10', 5' step and drinking a potion is that it takes a move to draw the potion and standard to drink it.
If you are staggered...you don't have time to do that. You only get move or std, not both. You'll jaunt, 5' step, draw the potion and....get killed.
I can't believe this thread is still going; you people need to realize something:
Meyer is a dick
On countless occasions now he has made rulings to favor the non-casters (manticore closed distance with him for him to beat it, but should stay back and spike casters) and ruled against casters. He has gone out of his way on every occasion to maintain the benefit of the non-casters while gimping casters.
You aren't going to win the argument with him; he has buried his head so far in the sand that he is just going to attemtp to abuse the rules with a non-caster to do everything that a caster can do. Beyond rules abuse, he has drawn an unfair caster/noncaster distinction which has from the start biased the results in his direction.
And the worst part is that he has garnered groupies doing it; most of whom have a similar lack of understanding of anything resembling the rules. So give up on it, or don't, and realize what I have 10 pages of pointless responses from now.
you know when this thread first started I was rather bored by it. An intelectual debate about which is better at low levels gets no one anywhere. However this thread has evolved into something else. its now a list of rather difficult solo adventures one needs to optimize for in order to survive. sure so far both sides have people who can apparently accomplish all the adventures but I'm not here to have one side win or lose. I'm here to test out my character optimization skills and see what my character can do against the challeneges as they evolve! Sure meyer obviously favors one side which is made obvious by his analysis in his first post but like I said this has grown beyond the initial purpose of the thread.
If you are staggered...you don't have time to do that. You only get move or std, not both. You'll jaunt, 5' step, draw the potion and....get killed.
I would figure the jaunt itself is enough to count and drop you to -1 from staggered. But I'm sure.
Eventually some adventurer with either an animal companion, travel domain, a leading pet or just tough enough to take 5 rounds of coup+spellcasting found his body, and he was raised to level 4. So he needs an easy CR3 and CR4 adventure first to levelup and re-equip before going to the well again at higher CR's.
Same build, but no Ranger level, anklet of translocation, shield+1 is just a mundane shield, wand of clw is +10 potions lesser vigor and armor is just mundane armor. He'll gear up again if he lives. Mostly I'm doing it at level 4
because it's more fun than crushing these at level 5, but it also explains how he's still level 5 for creepy things 2, kobold adventure and plains adventure.
CR3 dungeon
Locust Swarm
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As per normal, approaching cave he puts mage armor potion on horse.
locust swarm has hide+4, bela spot+0, Bela surprised 30%
swarm charges and engulfs Bela and mount, doing 7
swarm 21, Bela 27 horse 23
Initiative, swarm+4, bela+0 70% swarm wins
swarm does 7 more
Bela fort save 7 vs 12 70% not distracted
horse fort save +7 vs 12 70% not distracted
horse does run action, 300' away.
Bela unslings shield, gets out faith healing potino
swarm 21, bela 20 horse 16
swarm pursues, 180' away
bela rides 60' away, drinks potion, draws alch fire
swim 21 bela 29 horse 16
swarm pursues, and is just next to Bela/horse
Bela dismounts, rages throws alch fire +11 vs 18 hit 70% for 5
horse flees swarm
swarm 16burn Bela 41
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 160% not distracted
bela 5' step, throw oil 140% miss, but splash for 1, burn for 5
swarm 10 bela 34
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 250% not distracted
bela 5' step, throw acid, 210% hit for 5
swarm 5 bela 27
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 340% distracted
Bela 5' steps and draws acid
swarm 5, Bela 20
Swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 410% not distracted
Bela 5' steps throws acid 280% hits 5 kills swarm
Bela drinks 1 potion faith healing, 3 lsr vigor come out of rage
feeds 1 potion lsr vigor to horse (it is down 3hp)
resources: 2 potion faith healing, 4 lsr vgr, alch fire, 2 oil, 2 acid, mage armor pot
entering cave, crack sunrod, oil 2 magic stones, drink remove fear & antitoxin
571.2gp expended, one rage used
As per normal, approaching cave he puts mage armor potion on horse.
locust swarm has hide+4, bela spot+0, Bela surprised 30%
swarm charges and engulfs Bela and mount, doing 7
swarm 21, Bela 27 horse 23
Initiative, swarm+4, bela+0 70% swarm wins
swarm does 7 more
Bela fort save 7 vs 12 70% not distracted
horse fort save +7 vs 12 70% not distracted
horse does run action, 300' away.
Bela unslings shield, gets out faith healing potino
swarm 21, bela 20 horse 16
swarm pursues, 180' away
bela rides 60' away, drinks potion, draws alch fire
swim 21 bela 29 horse 16
swarm pursues, and is just next to Bela/horse
Bela dismounts, rages throws alch fire +11 vs 18 hit 70% for 5
horse flees swarm
swarm 16burn Bela 41
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 160% not distracted
bela 5' step, throw oil 140% miss, but splash for 1, burn for 5
swarm 10 bela 34
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 250% not distracted
bela 5' step, throw acid, 210% hit for 5
swarm 5 bela 27
swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 340% distracted
Bela 5' steps and draws acid
swarm 5, Bela 20
Swarm engulfs Bela, does 7
Bela save 10 vs 12 410% not distracted
Bela 5' steps throws acid 280% hits 5 kills swarm
Bela drinks 1 potion faith healing, 3 lsr vigor come out of rage
feeds 1 potion lsr vigor to horse (it is down 3hp)
resources: 2 potion faith healing, 4 lsr vgr, alch fire, 2 oil, 2 acid, mage armor pot
entering cave, crack sunrod, oil 2 magic stones, drink remove fear & antitoxin
571.2gp expended, one rage used
I would figure the jaunt itself is enough to count and drop you to -1 from staggered. But I'm sure.
Actually you're right. Using spells or spell-like abilities, swift or otherwise, is too strenuous to avoid bleeding.
Ah, so the level 5 character doesn't have to pay for them, as the bill comes due at level 6. I see and like.
I mentioned Bloodlines a While back as things I wouldn't use due to cheesyness, since we don't have to worry about leveling past 5.
However, Major bloodlines, like the one Joe has, must be bought off at 3, 6, and 12. Medium Bloodlines are 6 and 12, and Minor Bloodlines are at level 12. A character could have 2 medium bloodlines, but that would net +2 to two skills, and 2 feats (with things like Dodge, Power attack, and Alertness being prominant in the list).
I also realize that I can beat the ghoul glyph encounter. I'll show the numbers tomorrow. (Nightshield Protects from Magic Missiles :D)
I also realize that I can beat the ghoul glyph encounter. I'll show the numbers tomorrow. (Nightshield Protects from Magic Missiles :D)
Cool. Maybe you are the guy who finds Bela's body.
Be aware though that the guy will breath on you when the missiles do nothing, and your reflex save is pits. But you've got cold resistance so you might be ok if you can make all the fort saves.
On countless occasions now he has made rulings to favor the non-casters (manticore closed distance with him for him to beat it, but should stay back and spike casters) and ruled against casters. He has gone out of his way on every occasion to maintain the benefit of the non-casters while gimping casters.
I posted the generic fighter. He made plenty of rulings against melee.
In addition, he is correct in questioning the most successful builds far harder and more thoroughly than the less successful builds. That questioning is good, because that forces a caster to use better and more solid tactics, which only shows better that the caster builds are better.
I mentioned Bloodlines a While back as things I wouldn't use due to cheesyness, since we don't have to worry about leveling past 5.
However, Major bloodlines, like the one Joe has, must be bought off at 3, 6, and 12. Medium Bloodlines are 6 and 12, and Minor Bloodlines are at level 12. A character could have 2 medium bloodlines, but that would net +2 to two skills, and 2 feats (with things like Dodge, Power attack, and Alertness being prominant in the list).
I also realize that I can beat the ghoul glyph encounter. I'll show the numbers tomorrow. (Nightshield Protects from Magic Missiles :D)
Why just one:P Take all of them! Claim your familiy was some kind of uber perferted who went sleeping with everything and anything. Or is there any rule in UA that stops you from taking multiples?
Lets see.
Normal AC is 15 and the manticore goes first, 26 damage to spell. (420% hits).
Yup.
In round two it can be boosted to 19 through shield, manticore still hits with 11s, so it hits 3 times for 19.5 hp. 4.5 hp remain. (300% hits, +20% from round 1).
This round the manticore tries to manuever into melee, as it is not yet not an option.
In round 3 the wizard can cast protection from evil and raise AC to 21. Manticore needs 13s now (40%) and still hits 3 times, the wizard is at -1, dead. (240% hits, +20% from round 1 enough for a 3rd hit).
This round, the manticore is in a tanglefoot bag, as per what I had written. And since I have yet to cast shield, the math stays the same from before. 4.5 hit points.
So no, you can't boost your AC anywhere close to enough to protect yourself.
Shield cast, AC 20 vs attack +4. (-4 dex, -2 attack) because unlike in mine, it never tore itself out of the bag. I abrupt jaunt to avoid the attack. I drink a potion of cure light wounds, then go to work on it. Last volley hits once. I drink 2 more potions afterwards, am full health and still have enough for the rest of the dungeon. 3 used, 3 needed, no change to my character.
We are now assuming the absolute best tactics possible (including some metagaming) against my caster. Something I don't recall happening for many other character builds.
To the person who is reduced to zero in the grapple, the problem with jaunting 10', 5' step and drinking a potion is that it takes a move to draw the potion and standard to drink it.
Ah, forgot that it takes a move to draw potions. Oh well. I may have to simply redo some major part of it to make the character more sturdy. A scroll or two of false life is well within my potential budget, however, as I have another thousand or so to spen.
On the other hand, immediate spell likes are a DM considered issue that don't have a RAW answer as to the amount of stress it causes. Making it result in damage is fairly iffy, as it is not in any way mentioned individually as difficult.
All ambushes start at a range, not just manticores. It's a regular procedure for anyone out in the open, where I can at a moments notice be turned into a pin cushion.
I withdraw my objection ...
In the SRD, under traits, in the "building a character" optional rules from unearthed arcana. Spellgifted and quick are in there.
I misread, I thought that "Spellgifted: Quick" was one trait, not two ... I now found them both. (Jaw drops) ... I am in love with Spellgifted, I can use this to reduce my equipment costs even further ...
I think it should have run away from the dwarven ancestor builds as well. In the event it does spike me, I can simply boost my AC until he does not kill me with spikes.
Possibly, but it didn't and manticores have faced 4+ dwarven ancestors at present. So it makes sense to use the same tactics as was used in the past -- don't you agree?
I'm fairly sure it is.
Duh ... That is some serious metamagic. The word extend was so far away from the spell, that I honestly thought they were different things. Sorry.
Immediate spell like abilities are not the same as casting quickened spells. I don't know how many DMs would give the judgement call that they cause this damage.
Spell-Like Abilities:
Show
Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
I can't believe this thread is still going; you people need to realize something:
Meyer is a dick
If you feel that way, please add me to your block list, or report me.
On countless occasions now he has made rulings to favor the non-casters (manticore closed distance with him for him to beat it, but should stay back and spike casters) and ruled against casters. He has gone out of his way on every occasion to maintain the benefit of the non-casters while gimping casters.
Manticore started 60' away from me, as that was the range of its darkvision. Per game rules, it cannot start further away from me. My aerial charge range is 120' (until/unless cust service clarifies my skill trick differently)
And currently, (in my opinion) the two strongest candidates are the PAO builds and the DMM Cleric (not my build).
You aren't going to win the argument with him; he has buried his head so far in the sand that he is just going to attemtp to abuse the rules with a non-caster to do everything that a caster can do. Beyond rules abuse, he has drawn an unfair caster/noncaster distinction which has from the start biased the results in his direction.
People have won arguments vs me. They win every time I am wrong. CustServ responded that I could not ready my fire riposte for free from my cloak (which I disagree with) as well as that a creature immune to poison takes damage from acidic venom (which i disagree with), among other things.
My distinction is that casters cast spells (do you agree, or disagree). Base classes like paladin and ranger are not considered spellcaster (do you agree or disagree). PrCs that do not increase casting at least 3/5 are not spellcasting PrCs. PrCs that have spellcasting ability, but are not its main focus (pious templar (not) vs Ur-Priest (yes)) do not count as spellcasters.
What part of the above distinction is faulty.
I mentioned Bloodlines a While back as things I wouldn't use due to cheesyness, since we don't have to worry about leveling past 5.
However, Major bloodlines, like the one Joe has, must be bought off at 3, 6, and 12. Medium Bloodlines are 6 and 12, and Minor Bloodlines are at level 12. A character could have 2 medium bloodlines, but that would net +2 to two skills, and 2 feats (with things like Dodge, Power attack, and Alertness being prominant in the list).
So if he has a major bloodline, then he either
1) Does not gain the benefits of third level+, as well as takes a 20% XP hit, or
2) He needs to take a level in bloodline, which means that he does not have level 3 spells?
We are now assuming the absolute best tactics possible (including some metagaming) against my caster. Something I don't recall happening for many other character builds.
In almost every case (if not every case) manticore unloaded all volleys of spikes before closing into melee (this happened in each of the dwarven ancestor builds)
How about 'it flies toward me 50 ft. (move action) unleashes a volley (standard action) because it hasn't made it to melee yet.'Any time a contestant gives a monster the tactic of 'basically does nothing, regardless of its intellect', the battle needs to be examined. After all, the hyperbole of that situation is 'the monster does nothing, I win'.
In this case, even if we accept that it volleys once then begins to close, it would still be trying offense against that character during the act of trying to close. Manticores are not Int -.
In addition, if it's doing this for every contestant, it's not making a ruling in favor of one or the other.
Cool. Maybe you are the guy who finds Bela's body.
Be aware though that the guy will breath on you when the missiles do nothing, and your reflex save is pits. But you've got cold resistance so you might be ok if you can make all the fort saves.
Tomorrow, I promise.
Why just one Take all of them! Claim your familiy was some kind of uber perferted who went sleeping with everything and anything. Or is there any rule in UA that stops you from taking multiples?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineDescriptions
So, assume you take them all: You get: Alertness, Power Attack, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Point Blank Shot and Stealthy as feats.
+16 Climb, +6 Sense Motive, +6 Bluff, +6 Swim, +6 Hide, +4 Move Silent, +4 Search, +2 gather info, +2 perform, +2 balance, +2 tumble, +2 concentation, +2 spot, +2 appraise.
You also have a character that needs to take 64 bloodline levels before level 12. Sure, some of those feats and skill boosts would be useful for my build. But they'd be just as useful to anyones build. I am trying to rely on things that a Cleric does nicely: DMM: Persist with augmented caster levels. Especially things like PBS, Dodge, Improved Init, Power Attack, and the save boosters may help the people who don't have save buffs like me more and are more martial, so I decided to refrain from using them.
I misread, I thought that "Spellgifted: Quick" was one trait, not two ... I now found them both. (Jaw drops) ... I am in love with Spellgifted, I can use this to reduce my equipment costs even further ...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#spellgifted
Choose a school of magic. Add 1 to your caster level when casting spells from that school.
Wow, I don't get it, I must have misread your build something bad. What school of magic do you cast spells from in your non-caster build?
OK ... I understand what you are saying, as well as what you said before .. however, the issue is that sanctum spell adjusts the spell level, so wouldn't it be (for glitterdust) ... (2-1 sanctum)1 + 0 (metamagic)? Now, keep in mind that I only think this to be the case based on how we allowed the pearl of power entrant. Remember that you expend the spell while making it, so I do not see the distinction between casting the spell outside the sanctum or expending the spell (from crafting) outside the sanctum.
I guess I have to go look everything up. Here are some excerpts from the Main 3.5 FAQ regarding creating magic items :
Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat). A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand. If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).
Can sudden metamagic feats (Complete Arcane) be used to scribe scrolls or craft wands that include the metamagic effect? If so, how would you calculate the cost (since sudden metamagic feats don’t alter the level of the spell)?
You can use a sudden metamagic feat in item creation; the cost to create the item would be just as if you were using the regular metamagic feat. For instance, using your Sudden Widen feat to create a scroll of widened fireball would cost as much as scroll of a 6th-level spell (which is what a widened fireball is). The act of creating the scroll or wand would expend your daily use of Sudden Widen (since the act of creation triggers the spell, making it unavailable for casting).
Here is one of the “Rules of the Game” articles on making magic items (emphasis mine):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a
You must expend all the money and experience required to make an item when you begin the process. If an item has a spell (or spells) as a prerequisite, you must have the spell or spells available to you at the start of each day that you work on the item; the spell or spells are used up for that day when you begin working on the item. Since you're not actually casting the spell, you don't expend any extra experience or money for expensive material components each day. Instead these costs are added to the item's overall creation cost according to the kind of item (see Parts Two through Five). For example, a ring of invisibility has a base price of 20,000 gp (which happens to be the same as its market price), and it takes twenty days to make. A wizard making a ring of invisibility must prepare an invisibility spell each day spent working on the ring, and the spell is expended, just as if cast, each day as soon as work on the ring commences. A sorcerer working on a ring of invisibility need not prepare any spells, but he must know the invisibility spell. Each day the sorcerer works on the ring, one of the sorcerer's 2nd-level spells is expended as soon as work on the ring commences. A character relying on a scroll to provide the required invisibility spell would need at least 20 scrolls -- one for each day of working on the ring.
Does this help clear things up even further? Clearly when you create an item holding a sanctum spell, you use original spell level + metamagic adjustment of +0. The various modifiers for casting the spell never enter the picture. When you are creating an item, you never actually cast any of the spells you are using as pre-requisites. You have them “available” and they become “unavailable” as outlined in the article. But all of the rules indicate that a level 2 sanctum spell, is still considered level 2 during item creation.
Due to the curious way pearls of power are worded and activated, you could generously rule that they work in the fashion the previous contestant used them. (Personally, I agree with you that the pearls should not work like this, but I got the feeling we are in the minority here on the CO board on this issue, so I kept silent. But I also feel that the way you are attempting to bend/interpret the item creation rules is even more unbalancing and/or wrong, might as well throw in some sort of Earth Spell abuse while you are at it…)
I hope you (and the rest of the community) find this evidence sufficient, if not I encourage you to read the entire magic item creation rules, the Rules of the Game articles concerning item creation, and the various FAQs (3.0 and 3.5). I think you will see that there is no real support for your interpretation of the item creation rules/pricing in this instance. If things are still unclear, I can comb through the RoG articles for additional support (when I have the time).
Edit to add : I actually think the time would be better spent searching for some sort of official feedback that the pearl of power interpretation is correct.
Wow, I don't get it, I must have misread your build something bad. What school of magic do you cast spells from in your non-caster build?
Drawback
Reduce your caster level by 1 whenever you cast a spell that is not from your chosen school.
This is in line with my attempt (which is looking more and more flawed) with using sanctum spell to reduce the spell level ...
(I am sending a question to cust serv about this (both issues)
But the attempt is as follows:
Lets say that Mr. Evoker (trait is spell gifted evocation) with sanctum spell makes a magic item OUTSIDE his sanctum.
One interpretation (which is looking more and more flawed) is that when he (level 3) makes his scroll of invisibility (not evocation) it is caster level 2 (not three, as it is not evocation) and it is spell level 1 (at least while casting).
If these same traits are applied when he is scribing the scroll, then it would be 1 (spell level) * 2 (caster level) * 25 = 50 gp cost to BUY, instead of 2 (spell level) * 3 (caster level) * 25 = 150 (1/3 cost).
The questions I am sending to Cust Service are as follows:
Could a character use Sanctum Spell to adjust the spell level of a spell for item creation feats.
Could a character use the drawback of Spellgifted to reduce the caster level of a spell for item creation feats.
Can a character use a Pearls of Power (level 1) to recall Invisibility when it had previously been modified by sanctum spell, and cast outside the sanctum.
If no one has objections to the three above questions by noon (est) sunday, then I will send them to Cust Serv.
And yes, I am reaching ... but, this is the character optimization boards after all ... and if I cannot get this to work, then I need to eliminate one aspect of the character (reduced priced items)
The Questions seem fine to me.
Isn't there a minimum caster level set out in the rules somewhere?
The Questions seem fine to me.
Nope. Or at least, there isn't one listing a per-spell basis.
This is like how a paladin can scribe (brew) an item of lesser restoration (level 1, caster level 2 -- which is the first time he gains the spell).
My contention is that with the drawback, the spellgifted person cannot cast the spell at the normal caster level, so either can cannot cast the spell (because his caster level is too low) or casts it at a lower level.
Saying that the caster can scribe something at a higher level than he can cast is counterintuitive.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
Hmm ... what about mage slayer for the item creator?
If a spellcaster is subjected to the enervation spell and gets two negative levels, does the character also lose the ability to cast his highest level of spells? The descriptive text for negative levels says that a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot (the highest) for each negative level. This would imply that the spellcaster could still cast his highest level spells so long as he hasn’t been enervated for more negative levels than he has spells of his highest level.
You are correct. A spellcaster with a negative level loses one spell of the highest level he currently has available to cast. He does not necessarily lose his whole highest level of spells (although that’s a real possibility when a spellcaster picks up several negative levels).
Hmm, so a caster who spends time scribing spells/making magic items -- with no saves or variable effects -- would actually benefit from this.
This seems like even LESS rules-objectionable than the other things (sanctum spell and spellgifted)
He pretty much ends up with the choice of getting owned with no response by one encounter if he provokes a combat there, not only getting killed but rotted into dust by another encounter or ending his adventuring career as a undead under dominion of the one that killed him.
He did beat the first two encounters convincingly though, and whether it is encounter 4 or 5 that kills him, he did lay a bit of smack down before he was killed. Level 6 Bela might have done pretty well, with better equipment and iterative attacks and whatnot. Bela On Drugs could probably have made it to the final encounter, but that one had the potential to defeat him and he'd certainly be staggering out in bad shape looking for a temple to undo nasty conditions.
The lesson here seems to be that that Bela can be tuned for solo CR5 play, but CR6 seems to cause coin-toss rate of death (in 10 CR6 undead encounters, 5 he could reliably beat, 5 could reliably kill him). His approach breaks down - he just isn't geared to endure long fights at higher CR's and he doesn't generate enough offense without his L6 feat, BAB and equipment to shorten the fights.
So far I think the dragon and crypt encounters over-emphasize the benefits of short duration buffs. The only one that I've tested that force me out of that mode was the hydra adventure. I'd like to see more casters do this. (although I think the successful casters we've seen would probably also do well...some work with awfully long duration buffs or have a comfortable level of overkill, and those that don't could rest a day between each room....)
Entrance of original Creepy Things
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As this is a crypt, I want my mage armor potion for myself, so the poor horse must advance naked to the crypt. Luckily this time there are no outdoor ambushes.
Before entering the crypt, drink pot mage armor, remove fear, antitoxin, 3 oil magic stone
Routine practice will be to tap myself with wand prot evil before opening doors/entering rooms
315gp burned (9 chg left prot evil wand)
As this is a crypt, I want my mage armor potion for myself, so the poor horse must advance naked to the crypt. Luckily this time there are no outdoor ambushes.
Before entering the crypt, drink pot mage armor, remove fear, antitoxin, 3 oil magic stone
Routine practice will be to tap myself with wand prot evil before opening doors/entering rooms
315gp burned (9 chg left prot evil wand)
So if he has a major bloodline, then he either
1) Does not gain the benefits of third level+, as well as takes a 20% XP hit, or
2) He needs to take a level in bloodline, which means that he does not have level 3 spells?
I actually took the intermediate, as there is no major elemental bloodlines. Minor would be one lost at 12, intermediate is at 6 and 12, and major, which I can't take is 3, 6 and 12 or something. I also should change it to djinni, as that intermediate bloodline is more useful for me. I'll do that as well when I fix up the problems.
That's especially true with the whole 'it tries to close, but does nothing else.'
I had it move to 10 feet from me round one, after firing. Second round, I had it move twice to actually get me in its melee range, not do nothing. After that it was disabled from melee, and I conceded the firing of spikes. However, I also showed what would happen with all four volleys. I use 3 more potions of cure light wounds, which leaves me, as written enough for the rest of the stint, and an abrupt jaunt, which still leaves me with enough for the rest of the dungeon. Not dead, but did use more resources, which I think is a fine trade off.
caster / non caster total success's
i'd like to see a running tally in the op... if its not to much to ask...
Yup.
This round the manticore tries to manuever into melee, as it is not yet not an option.
That makes no sense, its target it is still moving and it can fly and shot.
This round, the manticore is in a tanglefoot bag, as per what I had written. And since I have yet to cast shield, the math stays the same from before. 4.5 hit points.
But if the wizard has been tossing tanglefoot bags, then he still has AC 15 and gets hit a lot. If tangled the manticore shots at -2, hits with 4 spikes (360%) and kills the wizard.
We are now assuming the absolute best tactics possible (including some metagaming) against my caster. Something I don't recall happening for many other character builds.
Well, besides yours I have never seen a fight where the manticore did nothing but moving for a whole round, much less wasted entire rounds trying to come closer to a character while the character killed it, instead of using the spikes.
That makes no sense, its target it is still moving and it can fly and shot.
But if the wizard has been tossing tanglefoot bags, then he still has AC 15 and gets hit a lot. If tangled the manticore shots at -2, hits with 4 spikes (360%) and kills the wizard.
Well, besides yours I have never seen a fight where the manticore did nothing but moving for a whole round, much less wasted entire rounds trying to come closer to a character while the character killed it, instead of using the spikes.
Argaud's right, Jo_Pistachio.
It seems like you're stuck with these options...
1. The manticore, knowing it cannot reach the wizard with a double move, flies forward 50 ft. and unleashes a volley. (math ensues, damage is dealt).
2. The manticore, knowing it cannot reach the wizard with a double move, will choose the option that lets it do nothing effective. (no math ensues, wizard is safe)
... and given the manticore's Int (7) and Wis (12), have chosen #2.
Any idea why people question it?
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
I make a Wisdom check to realize how bad soloing could be, and purchase a wand of restoration with 1 charge.
520 gp
Wands do not come in 1 charge increments (10, 20, etc). That would be a scroll. You have the gold to spend on it.
The questions I am sending to Cust Service are as follows:
Could a character use Sanctum Spell to adjust the spell level of a spell for item creation feats.
Could a character use the drawback of Spellgifted to reduce the caster level of a spell for item creation feats.
Can a character use a Pearls of Power (level 1) to recall Invisibility when it had previously been modified by sanctum spell, and cast outside the sanctum.
If no one has objections to the three above questions by noon (est) sunday, then I will send them to Cust Serv.
I think these questions are a bit vague and could be worded better. You are very likely to end up with a response that will still leave us trying to interpret the answer to apply it to our situation. Try this instead :
I have several questions regarding interactions among the meta-magic feat Sanctum Spell, item creation, and the pearl of power wondrous item.
1) If a crafter creates a wand of “Sanctum Glitterdust”, but creates it outside of his “sanctum”, what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
I think the answers to these questions will be much more likely to settle the debate without further problems.
Wands do not come in 1 charge increments (10, 20, etc). That would be a scroll. You have the gold to spend on it.
Actually, I thought wands coming in anything other that 50 charges was pretty much a house-rule? I believe that the Sage ruled that it was not possible to create an item with fewer than maximum charges (but the DM could be nice and institute some rules for it). Most people point out that they should logically be able to buy the wand second-hand at fewer than maximum charges or something like that.
Per Meyers complaint about me changing equipment, I'm going to try the first challenge with this mix, and stick to it in future.
Hey, question:
How many different versions of this guy do you want on page one? If only 1, then which build should I list?
Reall tired when I made this one, so most has some big errors of some sort.ShowRoy the conjurer
Fire bloodline
Specialist, focused specialist, immediate magic variants.
Feats
Flaw: flash frost spell
Flaw: invisible spell
Human: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus: conjuration
Level 3: extend spell
Level 4: improved initiative
Level5: Fiery burst
Noncombatant, feeble.
Spell gifted , quick
Stats:
Stre: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Inte: 17 (18/20) level increase.
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Saves: F 3, R 3, W 4
AC=15/19/21
HP=14
Spells prepared
0-3 orb of acid, 3 resistance
1: Mage armour, 2 shield, 2 protection from evil, 2 grease
2: protection from arrows, energy protection, 3 glitterdust, darkvision
3: 2 extended, invisible, flashfrost, heightened sleet storms, 1 heightened to 4 orb of fire, 1 empty slot.
Items: Headband of intelligence +2 (4000), mastercrafted light crossbow (335) 40 bolts (2), 10 tanglefoot bags (self made, 250), ring of protection +1 (2000), 3 paladin made potions of lesser restoration (150) 6 potions of cure light wounds (300)
Cast, mage armour, resistance, darkvision, protection from arrows.
CR5 cave:
while wandering through the hills I am a attacked by a manticore!Show
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I dont, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
my first turn I cast invisability and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell i am no longer where the sound was coming from when the manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate untill the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose
You don't specify that it's night-time out, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as that was Meyer's posted tactic, and you already have Darkvision up. Manticore and you notice each other at 60 ft.
It's always nice to actually see the numbers...
BTW, your AC is (10 base, +1 dex, +1 ring, +4 mage armor) 16, not 15 as you've stated.
Round 1: Initiative is your -1 v. +2, so you get a 40%; manticore goes first.
Manticore: Volley of Spikes: +8 ranged v. AC 15 (flat-footed) hits on 7+ (%=70/140/210/280/350/420; 4 hits) for 26/50 Prot. from Arrows. Flies 50 ft. toward Roy, now 10 ft. away.
Roy: Throws Tanglefoot bag +3 v. Touch AC of 11 hits on 8+ (65%), manticore makes a reflex save +7 v. DC 15 and succeeds on a 8+ (65%), a success so his movement isn't hampered. Roy moves back 30 ft., now 40 ft. away. [I didn't see anything that increases Roy's movement.]
Round 2:
Manticore: Charges (half speed, 25 fly = 50 charge) Roy +10 v. AC 16 hits on 6+ (495%) a hit for 10 (Roy is now at 4/14 hit points). Manticore is adjacent to Roy. Roy is hosed at this point.
Roy A: 5 ft. step and toss tanglefoot bag +3 v. Touch AC 9 (entangled) hits on 6+ (140%) a miss. This is bad because Roy is a 5 ft. step away from the Manticore, who can now full attack. Even with being entangled, this spells trouble.
Roy B: Move away to toss another tanglefoot bag. This draws an AoO (+8 v. AC 16 hits on 8+ and deals another 10 damage, putting Roy at negatives.
Roy C: Withdraw 60 ft. The manticore can fly to Roy (double move) and still be adjacent, or it can fly 25 ft. (single move) and spike Roy to death.
Even if Roy does manage to get that third tanglefoot bag to hit, and to stick, the manticore makes a Strength check and fires a volley of spikes, ending Roy. (It fails the first Strength check, succeeds the second.)
Just a small observation, shouldn't the exact tactical situation here make a huge difference? I mean since the manticore has only clumsy flying movement, it will have difficulty turning (certain minimum forward movement is needed before it can turn, limited on the angle it can turn, etc.). You could possibly "run under it" to its rear arc and it would spend a lot of time trying to turn around to get back to you. Of course if it was too low you couldn't run under and it might just land at the end of its movement to turn around more sharply. I am just trying to think of some way to resolve the situation without having to know the exact tactical layout...
I think these questions are a bit vague and could be worded better. You are very likely to end up with a response that will still leave us trying to interpret the answer to apply it to our situation. Try this instead
I have no disagreement with the rewording ... thanks.
Also, MIC lists wands in less than 50 charges, but more than 1 charge. (10/20/etc)
Now, you might have acquired a 10 charge, but used 9 charges already (this is in the consumables by level thing) ... so you might be able to do that, but ... if you have the gold for it, and it makes you difference in game play ...
Just a small observation, shouldn't the exact tactical situation here make a huge difference? I mean since the manticore has only clumsy flying movement, it will have difficulty turning (certain minimum forward movement is needed before it can turn, limited on the angle it can turn, etc.). You could possibly "run under it" to its rear arc and it would spend a lot of time trying to turn around to get back to you. Of course if it was too low you couldn't run under and it might just land at the end of its movement to turn around more sharply. I am just trying to think of some way to resolve the situation without having to know the exact tactical layout...
I edited the post after you hit quote and added some more data.
Yes, the PC could run under the manticore. I figure at night, if it's hunting in a way that allows it to see the most ground, it would be about 20 ft. up. If a PC does that, the manticore spikes while attempting to move into position for melee attacks. That's the main thrust of this exchange. The manticore wouldn't just give up and stay right there, stuck to the ground, doing nothing when it has that nice spike attack ready to use.
The other thing is another dirty little problem of D&D: There is no facing in D&D, yet flying creatures are forced to use facing and forward momentum when ground based creatures, no matter their speed, do not.
Fly movement 30 (clumsy) forces a creature to circle like a jumbo jet.
Ground movement 120 does not.
Round 2:
Manticore: Charges (half speed, 25 fly = 50 charge) Roy +10 v. AC 16 hits on 6+ (495%) a hit for 10 (Roy is now at 4/14 hit points). Manticore is adjacent to Roy. Roy is hosed at this point.
Minor nitpick ...
Manticore is moving at 1/2 speed, so it cannot charge.
It instead would take a single move (25 feet) and attack (the strategy you posted).
i know the op gets updated and all, but whats the score.
caster / non caster total success's
i'd like to see a running tally in the op... if its not to much to ask...
I just created a tally.
All,
If a build has been modified so that it should change categories, please PM me for a reexamination (or just post here).
build
Azurin Totemist 5
St 16/Dx 13/Cn 16/In 10/Ws 8/Ch 6
Skills: Spot 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Jump 8
Feats:
Martial Study - Burning Blade (lv1)
Martial Stance - Punishing Stance (Azurin)
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Flaw - Pathetic)
Draconic Aura: Vigor (Flaw - Poor Reflexes)
Leap of the Heavens (Lv3)
Gear:
(Defensive)
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp)
Belt of Healing (750gp)
Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp)
Potion of Protection from Evil (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Good (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Law (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Chaos (50gp)
(Offensive)
Light Crossbow (35gp)
50 bolts (5gp)
Dagger (2gp)
1gp worth of torches (1gp)
(Miscellaneous)
Neck medallion with Continual Flame cast on it (110gp) (Not used)
Have Darkvision cast on me ahead of time (60gp)
Eternal Wand of Heroics (4500gp)
487gp remaining.
Azurin Totemist 5
St 16/Dx 13/Cn 16/In 10/Ws 8/Ch 6
Skills: Spot 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Jump 8
Feats:
Martial Study - Burning Blade (lv1)
Martial Stance - Punishing Stance (Azurin)
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Flaw - Pathetic)
Draconic Aura: Vigor (Flaw - Poor Reflexes)
Leap of the Heavens (Lv3)
Gear:
(Defensive)
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp)
Belt of Healing (750gp)
Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp)
Potion of Protection from Evil (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Good (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Law (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Chaos (50gp)
(Offensive)
Light Crossbow (35gp)
50 bolts (5gp)
Dagger (2gp)
1gp worth of torches (1gp)
(Miscellaneous)
Neck medallion with Continual Flame cast on it (110gp) (Not used)
Have Darkvision cast on me ahead of time (60gp)
Eternal Wand of Heroics (4500gp)
487gp remaining.
Minor nitpick ...
Manticore is moving at 1/2 speed, so it cannot charge.
It instead would take a single move (25 feet) and attack (the strategy you posted).
Good catch.
The point is that it would still make attacks to the best of its ability, which is the spikes if it cannot actually reach the PC.
Another thing I though of is the manticore's posted tactics. It says in the SRD that it would fire a volley of spikes and close to melee.
How about this instead...
Round 1:
Spikes, move 20 ft. closer.
PC throws tanglefoot bag at -6 range penalty (a miss) moves back to remain at 60 ft. range.
Round 2: Manticore charges, putting PC adjacent without the goo problem.
That manticore tactic doesn't specify that it closes as much as possible in the first round. Since it cannot melee on the first round anyway, there's really no need to assume it gets as close as possible to make it easier to be hit with that tanglefoot bag.
That makes it even harder on the PC.
Hey, question:
How many different versions of this guy do you want on page one? If only 1, then which build should I list?
Use Final Bela...the last one. It took a couple tries to adapt him properly to solo work. He does ok in 3-5 CR stuff, but the CR6 stuff he seems to die about half the time.
Here's my submission, Jumpy. I don't know or much care whether he counts as a caster or a noncaster. He seems to beat the first CR5 challenge without too much trouble - though the wraith does force Jumpy to return to town for healing.
I don't know either ...
build
Azurin Totemist 5
St 16/Dx 13/Cn 16/In 10/Ws 8/Ch 6
Skills: Spot 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Jump 8
Feats:
Martial Study - Burning Blade (lv1)
Martial Stance - Punishing Stance (Azurin)
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Flaw - Pathetic)
Draconic Aura: Vigor (Flaw - Poor Reflexes)
Leap of the Heavens (Lv3)
Gear:
(Defensive)
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp)
Belt of Healing (750gp)
Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp)
Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000gp)
Potion of Protection from Evil (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Good (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Law (50gp)
Potion of Protection from Chaos (50gp)
(Offensive)
Light Crossbow (35gp)
50 bolts (5gp)
Dagger (2gp)
1gp worth of torches (1gp)
(Miscellaneous)
Neck medallion with Continual Flame cast on it (110gp) (Not used)
Have Darkvision cast on me ahead of time (60gp)
Eternal Wand of Heroics (4500gp)
487gp remaining.
I edited the post after you hit quote and added some more data.
Yes, the PC could run under the manticore. I figure at night, if it's hunting in a way that allows it to see the most ground, it would be about 20 ft. up. If a PC does that, the manticore spikes while attempting to move into position for melee attacks. That's the main thrust of this exchange. The manticore wouldn't just give up and stay right there, stuck to the ground, doing nothing when it has that nice spike attack ready to use.
The other thing is another dirty little problem of D&D: There is no facing in D&D, yet flying creatures are forced to use facing and forward momentum when ground based creatures, no matter their speed, do not.
Fly movement 30 (clumsy) forces a creature to circle like a jumbo jet.
Ground movement 120 does not.
I think I should explain further what I am talking about.
When initial contact is made between the manticore and the "prey", the flight direction of the manticore makes a big difference in how quickly it can close to melee distance (assuming that is its goal). First, assume the manticore is cruising at 20 feet of altitude (and I absolutely agree that it would not be much higher than this if it was hunting, otherwise it would dramatically “over-shoot” its prey while trying to land and engage it). If it is dark and the manticore is relying upon its darkvision (60’), then it is scanning a circle of ground with a radius of approximately 55 feet, centered under it (the intersection of a sphere of 60’ radius and a plane offset 20’ from the center of the sphere. When the “prey” (our intrepid night hunting heroes) comes into view, the initial set up could be somewhere between directly in the flight path of the manticore up to 90 degrees to the side of the manticore, just barely in the “corner of its eye”. I’ll attempt to demonstrate with ye olde ansi graphics assume the manticore is flying north / toward the top of the screen (P is the player character, M is the manticore) :
P
^
|
M
Or
^
|
M ....... P
The player could appear on the radar anywhere along the arc from directly in front of the manticore to directly to the side of the manticore. If the manticore wants to get to melee as quickly as possible (throwing spikes along the way) then the first situation is the best for it, all it has to do is descend/move forward.
So consider situation 1, with the player directly in the flight path of the manticore. With clumsy movement, its “between up and down” number is 20’, so it could descend 5’, move forward 20’, descend 5’, move forward 20’, except it is limited to 45 degree down angle, so I think it would have to move down+forward diagonally (forward 5’, down 5’), then forward 20’, then down 5’ + forward 5’, then forward 20’. Since it can move down at “double” normal speed, at this point it has used up its 50’ of a single move action. It is at 10’ of altitude, and is directly above the square 5’ south of the prey (they started out with 55’ of “ground distance” between them, the manticore covered 50’ of “ground distance” while descending 10’ in total). I don’t think it is technically within melee reach at this point (the prey will not draw an AoO if it moves). Of course it throws spikes either before or after this movement. Now the “prey” can move at this point so it becomes difficult to predict what will happen next. Probably the best thing for the manticore to do would be to repeat the previous movement (down5/forward5, forward20, down5/forward5, now it has landed), and land then turn around and launch itself back at the prey, moving 25 feet directly at the prey (50' total now), and spiking again. At this point assume it lands at the end of every movement. Next round it can charge.
Now consider situation 2, where the prey came into its circle of vision at a right angle to its flight path, now it has to begin the “jumbo jet” circle descent, basically trying to land again so it can maneuver at all (let’s face it, it just sucks in the air and couldn’t catch anything).
The “prey” could then move in a “pursuit spiral” (circling in the same direction as the manticore, but turning much tighter because it is on the ground) so that basically the manticore cannot get into melee range of the target until it can land, rid itself of its “facing” so it can turn freely, then relaunch itself directly at the target.
The upshot of all this is that it will end up firing many volleys of spikes before it can melee, unless the target "helps out" by also trying to move into melee.
The other consequence is that we are all forced to conclude that D&D flying movement rules are “teh suq” because they attempt to “add facing where facing was never meant to make sense”.
I hope this communicates my point (assuming I had one, hmm...). The initial tactical situation is very important here with regard to how quickly the manticore can reach melee. Obviously, this particular encounter is difficult to host over the internet with no combat map. I would bet that a person with a fly spell could avoid melee indefinitely (well, until the spell expired) with this creature in the air if he or she so desired.
I go back to town, and pay the temple for lesser restorations. On average it takes 3, so 180gp woth of spells.
Attribute drain (as opposed to damage) needs a full restoration to fix. That's 280gp for the spell and 100gp for the material component. It's a minor nitpick but if you don't have the spare cash you'll have to sell off some equipment like Bela did - there isn't any loot yet.
On the rug, you appear to be forgetting that it gets a suprise round if you don't somehow detect that it is other than a rug before you step on it.
This means it'll get a touch attack to grapple while you're flatfooted. It is this aspect that makes the encounter dangerous.
If that won't work, I can run away and come back tomorrow, taking 2 days to finish it: I should have a reasonable shot at hiding in the cliffs after I escape the
cave, getting back to town and resting.
]
How do you disengage and hide from something with the speed and keen sense of a dragon?
This works with the dumb monsters, or the slow monsters, or possibly with those that can't detect you once you get around a corner. But something fast with 120' blindsight?
1) Eternal wands can only be used by arcane casters. How do you bypass that?
Oops... Don't actually have the MIC, so I didn't know that. That means I'm stuck using potions, which will get expensive quickly.
2) Draconic Aura has a requirement of 3rd level. You cannot get that with a flaw feat.
Feats can be switched around a bit, not a big problem.
3) Martial study cannot be used at 1st level. You have an initiator level of 0 (or 1/2, either way, not one).
I thought level 1 maneuvers didn't have an IL requirement -- I don't actually have that book either. Oh well, this one would mean back to the drawing board: I'll have to find some other way to get a whole lot of extra damage.
Why does the manticore have "no chance" to see you?
I mean that, from more than 90', the Manticore still won't see me if it rolls a 20 and I roll a 1.
How are you getting a full attack in a surprise round? (Do you have pounce?)
Landshark Boots allow a jump as a standard action, if you clear at least 5' you get to attack with all the claws. This character automatically clears 5'.
How do you spot the snake before it can detect you? Per posted mini-adventure, it is around a corner.
How are you full attacking on a surprise round again?
Basically, because the snake doesn't have Spot. If I come within its scent immediately (not sure of the layout -- some real maps would be good) then I can always back off and try again.
How do your attacks touch the incorporal wraith? What makes them magical?
Essentia invested into Landshark Boots makes them act as +3 weapons
You step on rug, initiating a surprise round, it attacks your flatfooted ac, then what happens?
Ah, it gets a surprise round. I'd assumed it was just as surprised as I was, but if it gets a surprise round this character dies.
Um, your elemental cloak works 1/day for 1 round. So your alternate tactics, you might die.
Oops, don't actually have that book either. I assumed it would last longer. So that would have to become a potion of resist energy.
Ah well, it was a good try. That guy's withdrawn because I don't frankly have the patience to fix it.
How do you disengage and hide from something with the speed and keen sense of a dragon?
Basically? By full-running. It's amazing what a full run can do; you can take only a small number of attacks over a very long distance, and once you're outside into the cliffs, you can easily turn a corner and make the dragon guess which way you went. Not that it matters.
Basically? By full-running. It's amazing what a full run can do; you can take only a small number of attacks over a very long distance, and once you're outside into the cliffs, you can easily turn a corner and make the dragon guess which way you went. Not that it matters.
But you can only full run in straight lines over normal terrain, I would think that the dragon could easily follow behind in the twisting tunnels of the cave. Creatures with a natural flying movement rate can use the "run action" as well I believe and it has a massive speed advantage on you.
3) Martial study cannot be used at 1st level. You have an initiator level of 0 (or 1/2, either way, not one).
I was thinking about this one...I bet you could make a strong case that minimum IL should be 1 for any character, even at first level. Have you actually read of a ruling to the contrary?
But you can only full run in straight lines over normal terrain, I would think that the dragon could easily follow behind in the twisting tunnels of the cave. Creatures with a natural flying movement rate can use the "run action" as well I believe and it has a massive speed advantage on you.
The trick is to just "not die" until you manage to turn a corner.
Like I said though, it really doesn't matter: the rug already ate jumpy.
Wands do not come in 1 charge increments (10, 20, etc). That would be a scroll. You have the gold to spend on it.
I actually recently purchased Complete Champion and may be able to get another boost or two out of it. Over these next few days my time is getting better, so I'll run a completely optimized cleric now that I know almost all of what is available. However, in relation to that scroll/wand debate - it is a nitpick, and matters not. Subtract the difference and go on with it. There is a cleric that is capable of dealing with numerous CR 6 encounters at level 5.
When initial contact is made between the manticore and the "prey", the flight direction of the manticore makes a big difference in how quickly it can close to melee distance (assuming that is its goal). First, assume the manticore is cruising at 20 feet of altitude (and I absolutely agree that it would not be much higher than this if it was hunting, otherwise it would dramatically “over-shoot” its prey while trying to land and engage it).
SWEEEET.
If it cruises at 20' high, then I don't need any prone vs flight nonsense.
Round 1:
I charge it, jumping (taking a 10 yields a 20 jump check, enough to get a 5' verticle distance) and full attack it (5' tall character, 10' reach, 5' jump), dropping it to 5 hps.
As someone pointed out, it needs to move forward or stall. Per previous posting, I survive one shot of spikes.
Worst case, a tie, as it should retreat ... but I did not kill it.
I was thinking about this one...I bet you could make a strong case that minimum IL should be 1 for any character, even at first level. Have you actually read of a ruling to the contrary?
Should be ... or is.
All I can say is that the book says your initiator level is 1/2 your non-ToB classes. (paraphrasing) So at first level, it is 1/2 (which is not 1).
Stuff
I understood what you were talking about before, I just didn't want to get into specifics like you did. (Good job on that, in case other people didn't quite understand.)
The biggest thing becomes it's movement takes it outside darkvision range, so it effectively means very little to either side of the combat, except burning up buff durations, until it can come in at a straight approach. During any time when it cannot do a straight approach, it fires spikes as long as it could see the prey.
And prey that decides to bypass it must contend with Track (by Scent), and the manticore joining in on a later battle.
SWEEEET.
If it cruises at 20' high, then I don't need any prone vs flight nonsense.
Round 1:
I charge it, jumping (taking a 10 yields a 20 jump check, enough to get a 5' verticle distance) and full attack it (5' tall character, 10' reach, 5' jump), dropping it to 5 hps.
Worst case, a tie.
Taking 10 only works when not threatened or distracted. I'm not sure if you do, but I'd say battling a manticore counts as distracted.
Taking 10
When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
Although I should add that using the threshhold, you'll succeed on the first round anyway, and be able to reach it with your spiked chain. +10 jump check v. DC 20 succeeds on a 10+ (55%), a success. Subsequent rounds wouldn't succeed, but that may not matter.
SWEEEET.
If it cruises at 20' high, then I don't need any prone vs flight nonsense.
Round 1:
I charge it, jumping (taking a 10 yields a 20 jump check, enough to get a 5' verticle distance) and full attack it (5' tall character, 10' reach, 5' jump), dropping it to 5 hps.
As someone pointed out, it needs to move forward or stall. Per previous posting, I survive one shot of spikes.
Worst case, a tie, as it should retreat ... but I did not kill it.
Yeah, again this kind of proves the point about the intial tactical situation making a huge difference. Note I said that it would not be much higher than 20', but who knows? If it is 25' you could die, but 20' and you are OK...that's why I was concerned with the whole "meta-gameyness" of the encounter, both the initial position as well as the tactics involved.
Also, at 20' of altitude, I meant that it would start at 20' and occupy the space between 20' and 25', as it had to descend 4 total times to land. I think with 5' jump, 5' character you could only hit things occupying the 10' to 20' squares which it does not in my example. But you could get lucky and jump higher, or maybe it is only cruising at 15' occupying the space between 15' and 20'.
Taking 10 only works when not threatened or distracted. I'm not sure if you do, but I'd say battling a manticore counts as distracted.
eh, taking 10, assuming a 10, using threshold method, its all the same thing.
Although I should add that using the threshhold, you'll succeed on the first round anyway, and be able to reach it with your spiked chain. +10 jump check v. DC 20 succeeds on a 10+ (55%), a success. Subsequent rounds wouldn't succeed, but that may not matter.
I actually have higher than a +10, as my rage score increases my str (bonus to jump check). But right, if it works either way, it doesn't matter.
Yeah, again this kind of proves the point about the intial tactical situation making a huge difference. Note I said that it would not be much higher than 20', but who knows? If it is 25' you could die, but 20' and you are OK...that's why I was concerned with the whole "meta-gameyness" of the encounter, both the initial position as well as the tactics involved.
Also, at 20' of altitude, I meant that it would start at 20' and occupy the space between 20' and 25', as it had to descend 4 total times to land. I think with 5' jump, 5' character you could only hit things occupying the 10' to 20' squares which it does not in my example. But you could get lucky and jump higher, or maybe it is only cruising at 15' occupying the space between 15' and 20'.
Which is why I assumed it was higher than what I could realistically reach with a jump check.
5' character, 5' jump (vertical), 10' reach, means that I can hit something that is 20' off the ground. So if it has an altitude of 20', it is off the ground 20'.
Show
I have several questions regarding interactions among the meta-magic feat Sanctum Spell, item creation, and the pearl of power wondrous item.
1) If a crafter creates a wand of “Sanctum Glitterdust”, but creates it outside of his “sanctum”, what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a 5th level cleric has the feat "Mage Slayer" (from Complete Arcane), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For instance, could he craft a Wand of Lesser Restoration with a caster level of 1 (and a cost of 2 x 1 x 750gp) since he is a 5th level caster with a -4 caster level penalty?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
5) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
1) If a crafter creates a wand of “Sanctum Glitterdust”, but creates it outside of his “sanctum”, what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a 5th level cleric has the feat "Mage Slayer" (from Complete Arcane), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For instance, could he craft a Wand of Lesser Restoration with a caster level of 1 (and a cost of 2 x 1 x 750gp) since he is a 5th level caster with a -4 caster level penalty?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
5) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his “sanctum”, what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
eh, taking 10, assuming a 10, using threshold method, its all the same thing.
I actually have higher than a +10, as my rage score increases my str (bonus to jump check). But right, if it works either way, it doesn't matter.
Ya, doesn't matter in the end for your character. It's just best to portray taking 10 accurately so other people don't try to misuse it.
Which is why I assumed it was higher than what I could realistically reach with a jump check.
5' character, 5' jump (vertical), 10' reach, means that I can hit something that is 20' off the ground. So if it has an altitude of 20', it is off the ground 20'.
Actually, I'm not sure. Though that may just be because 3D movement in D&D is a little lacking in good descriptions.
With that description, the 10 ft. reach just brushes the edge of its square. Normally in combat, that reach has to hit the far edge of the space to count as being able to attack the creature.
Horizontal movement,
a longsword has 5 ft. reach, meaning it can only attack adjacent creatures (0 ft. of space between them)
a spiked chain has 10 ft. reach, meaning it can attack creatures with 5 ft. of space between them.
Vertically,
Manticore is 20 ft. off the ground, meaning it's spaces start at 20 ft.
With 5 ft. vertical leap, 5 ft. of character space, +10 ft. of reach you're just brushing the edge of the manticore's spaces, rather that hitting the far edge of the manticore's first space.
Which is why I assumed it was higher than what I could realistically reach with a jump check.
5' character, 5' jump (vertical), 10' reach, means that I can hit something that is 20' off the ground. So if it has an altitude of 20', it is off the ground 20'.
Actually the way I described it though, it occupies the space from 20' to 25' off the ground. If you are standing on the ground, you occupy 0' to 5', and can use your reach weapon to hit things that are between 5' and 15' away (1 square that extends between 5' and 10', one more square that extends 10' to 15'). If you jump up 5', then you occupy the space between 5' and 10', and can hit things that are in the space between 10' and 20' off the ground. The manticore that I described was just beyond your reach (in the 20' to 25' space). I don't think it should matter though, the characters should probably be able to handle a variety of initial tactical setups, especially the ones unfavorable to themselves.
Edit : ninja'd by Otto...
Edit2 :
I agree that you should probably be able to run away from the manticore, having only 60' darkvision on a completely dark night means that you will likely be "2 ships passing in the night" (it would be a great coincidence that it finds you at all). However, it does have the track feat, scent, and survival skill ranks...I could see it coming back later in the cave at a bad time...
Landshark Boots allow a jump as a standard action, if you clear at least 5' you get to attack with all the claws. This character automatically clears 5'.
I am afraid that unless they allow you to get a pounce you can't full attack in a surprise round anyway.
Basically, because the snake doesn't have Spot. If I come within its scent immediately (not sure of the layout -- some real maps would be good) then I can always back off and try again.
The snake does have spot +9, moreover it has +10 hide and that beats your +7 spot. The character cannot see it until it attack by surprise (they would miss each other except for its scent ability.
For reference, the snake has: Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +16. A quite impressive set of skills for a CR5 critter.
I think Meyer caught the rest of the stuff. Very interesting seeing an Incarnium character
Here's the details, since the author wanted to see tactics.
I randomized entry, got White, Blue, Red and Green in that order
White door
Bela was totally outclassed here, not having any real defense against
the breath weapon, no mobility due to terrain and no way to kill the
monster quickly with its DR and his limited missile options.
Show
White Door - Show Covered Hills:
It being pitch black, Bela cracks a sunrod and it being cold, he starts
to put on cold weather clothing. In 5 round he's probably mostly just
put on his warm cloak and some kind of headgear but he's gonna
be unhappy here. While he's fussing with that, the Chuul comes
into his dim light range (60') it has hide of -4, distance mod +6
spot +0 vs DC12 fail 45% it surprises Bela
it breathes 21 damage
Bela reflex +3 vs dc19 fail 25%
horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 35%
Chraal 85 Bela 21 horse 9
Chraal init +0 vs Bela +0 it wins 50%
It moves 40' up as double move, can't quite reach Bela
Bela and horse back off 30', bela throws alch fire during movement, which on a full round
action like drawing/throwing is halfway along the trip, so he's
20' from the elemental when he throws. He rages
Alch fire +10-2 vs AC13 hits 80% doing 5 damage
Chraal 80 burn Bela 36 horse 9 40' from Chraal
Chraal moves 20' up and breathes again (Bela 50' away)
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 pass 50% take 10 dmg
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 pass 70% take 10 dmg, goes down
horse bleeds 10%
Bela ride check +11 vs 15 pass 80% lands on feet
Bela draws and throws an oil flask at Chraal hit 160% 5 for oil
can not 5' step because of hindered movement.
Alch fire burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 70 burn Bela 26 Horse -2
Chraal moves right next to Bela and swings +10 vs 25 miss 35%
horse bleeds 20%
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO hit 70% for 13 dmg
Throws flask +10 vs 13 250% hit, 5 for oil,
last oil burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 60 burn Bela 13 horse -3
Chraal full attacks 2x+10 miss 140% bite 165% hit for 12 dmg
horse bleeds
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO miss 200%
Oil flask misses (320%) but splash damage does 1
prior oil burns for 5
Chraal 54 Bela 1 Horse -4
Chraal breathes, doing 21 damage to horse and Bela, killing them.
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 75% fail 21 dmg dies
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 105% take 21 dmg, dies
White Door - Show Covered Hills:
It being pitch black, Bela cracks a sunrod and it being cold, he starts
to put on cold weather clothing. In 5 round he's probably mostly just
put on his warm cloak and some kind of headgear but he's gonna
be unhappy here. While he's fussing with that, the Chuul comes
into his dim light range (60') it has hide of -4, distance mod +6
spot +0 vs DC12 fail 45% it surprises Bela
it breathes 21 damage
Bela reflex +3 vs dc19 fail 25%
horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 35%
Chraal 85 Bela 21 horse 9
Chraal init +0 vs Bela +0 it wins 50%
It moves 40' up as double move, can't quite reach Bela
Bela and horse back off 30', bela throws alch fire during movement, which on a full round
action like drawing/throwing is halfway along the trip, so he's
20' from the elemental when he throws. He rages
Alch fire +10-2 vs AC13 hits 80% doing 5 damage
Chraal 80 burn Bela 36 horse 9 40' from Chraal
Chraal moves 20' up and breathes again (Bela 50' away)
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 pass 50% take 10 dmg
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 pass 70% take 10 dmg, goes down
horse bleeds 10%
Bela ride check +11 vs 15 pass 80% lands on feet
Bela draws and throws an oil flask at Chraal hit 160% 5 for oil
can not 5' step because of hindered movement.
Alch fire burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 70 burn Bela 26 Horse -2
Chraal moves right next to Bela and swings +10 vs 25 miss 35%
horse bleeds 20%
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO hit 70% for 13 dmg
Throws flask +10 vs 13 250% hit, 5 for oil,
last oil burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 60 burn Bela 13 horse -3
Chraal full attacks 2x+10 miss 140% bite 165% hit for 12 dmg
horse bleeds
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO miss 200%
Oil flask misses (320%) but splash damage does 1
prior oil burns for 5
Chraal 54 Bela 1 Horse -4
Chraal breathes, doing 21 damage to horse and Bela, killing them.
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 75% fail 21 dmg dies
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 105% take 21 dmg, dies
Basically? By full-running. It's amazing what a full run can do; you can take only a small number of attacks over a very long distance, and once you're outside into the cliffs, you can easily turn a corner and make the dragon guess which way you went. Not that it matters.
You need a straight line to full run. Unless you have fleet of foot feat (and run), which allows one turn.
If you have that, the dragon can fly on a full run...and keep up with you until you are unable to run any more due to con limits. You can't do a run action with a fly spell, but anything with wings can do it.
Some monsters will ignore you if you run away, and some can be outdistanced (horses have both endurance and run feat, so they can run longer and go 5xmove a round, undead and constructs can't run etc)...but you still need straight line unhindered terrain to run, and the caves don't qualify, and outdoors, the dragon does it better.
Yeah, again this kind of proves the point about the intial tactical situation making a huge difference. Note I said that it would not be much higher than 20', but who knows? If it is 25' you could die, but 20' and you are OK...that's why I was concerned with the whole "meta-gameyness" of the encounter, both the initial position as well as the tactics involved.
Also, at 20' of altitude, I meant that it would start at 20' and occupy the space between 20' and 25', as it had to descend 4 total times to land. I think with 5' jump, 5' character you could only hit things occupying the 10' to 20' squares which it does not in my example. But you could get lucky and jump higher, or maybe it is only cruising at 15' occupying the space between 15' and 20'.
I think my strategy of just taking all 24 of the spikes works best. Then you don't have to deal with these wishy-washy "How high can I jump" issues. I suggest everyone without flight assumes they take 24 spike shots, hit or miss based on AC, and we go from there :D ?
i know the op gets updated and all, but whats the score.
caster / non caster total success's
i'd like to see a running tally in the op... if its not to much to ask...
This is unofficial but...
I've managed to get my melee to reliably win CR5 stuff (although the hydra requires foreknowledge and equipment to kill, he can just back away from it until it gets bored and gives up so it isn't a fatal encounter) but the CR6 stuff kills me precisely half the time so far.
Many casters die in the CR5, but some are capable of handling CR6. So I think there are a few "overpowered" casters out there. I think Meyers's warblade has CR5 nailed and only loses occasionally at CR6, so that one is up there with the suscessful casters.
The UMD rogue won and could probably do CR6 too, by emulating successful caster tactics and using stealth/trapfinding.
The other melees either failed (1) or may have wealth issue (1) or are possibly not legal (1) or it was the mount that won, not the character (1).
For the casters the first CR5 ended most of them as they mostly use tactics that don't actually work or are illegal (8) lost half the time (3) only lost to rug (1) has wealth issue (1)
Successful at CR5 are warmage who cheesed ancestral dwarf/outsider+potion fly, DMM cleric with alchemical caster boosts and interesting buffs that get stroger with those boosts and the fleshraker/venomfire build So it's 2-3 for successes by official count, and the DMM cleric is showing well in CR6 so far. When my build is examined again for CR5, it'll likely be a tie at CR5 for success.
The greenbound summoner, and the conjurer show potential but haven't yet come up with a clear win in the first CR5 challenge.
So actually it's pretty close. My my unofficial count, I see it as
CR5: Melee 3 of 6 success, with possible 4th if wealth cleared up
CR6: melee 1 of 2 success probaby the rogue would be ok too (so maybe 2 of 3)
CR5: caster 3 of 19 success with 2 more possible if they get build tuned
CR6: caster 0 yet but DMM cleric is close and the other two who passed CR5 may well handle this pretty well 2.
Bela performed about as badly as many of the failed caster builds the first time around. He needed to reshuffle equipment to pass. I suspect many of the caster builds could be reworked at CR5 but will be less successful at CR6 (or CR5 adventures that can't be done in 10 minutes time and don't let you rest between each encounter).
One thing I'm noticing is many of these caster builds either succeed utterly or fail utterly. For example, almost all of them had extremely high AC (in 30s) but insufficient resiliience when things didn't go as planned. Some also assume that they can beat CR5+ monsters with crossbows+bab. The problem with that is even very high AC doesn't help if your offense doesn't drop the monsters before their nat 20s drop you. (this is why the Warmage ancestral dwarf won, and most of the others did not, he had offense TOO). Grapplemonsters also can doom a character who can't reliably suck up the damage+constrict and get out before they do it again. Non-melee attacks or touch attacks can also doom those relying on very high AC. It doesn't matter if you will USUALLY avoid an attack or make a save. Solo, one hit or failed save ends you.
(as an example, in the forest troll fight, Bela makes the fort save for poison on a "2", but he got poisoned 8 times. Even if he'd won, he's likely facing permanent con loss. Ditto vs the wraiths and wights - wraith fort save was near automatic, but he still got con drained and wights only hit on a 20, but he still got level drained - the fights took too long to assume "usaully" is the same as "always")
They're kinda one trick ponies. Some are pretty good when the buffs are gone (eg, fleshraker build doesn't NEED venomfire and bull strength and luminous armor etc to still be pretty good). The DMM cleric worked hard to get a very good general mix of defenses (AC and DR and energy resistance and very high saves) and reuasble potent offense in a DMM buff to minimize the luck factor.
I think my strategy of just taking all 24 of the spikes works best. Then you don't have to deal with these wishy-washy "How high can I jump" issues. I suggest everyone without flight assumes they take 24 spike shots, hit or miss based on AC, and we go from there :D ?
That's what I did, although I had the complication of a mount with lower AC.
It could hit me flatfooted some, so it shot until it stopped hitting (salvo 3 - I was active and could use mount as cover and drank healing potion) and then went to the horse instead (salvo 4). One reason I did the fight without the horse that time was because it COULD have shot the horse first. I just didn't think it WOULD. Many mounted riders can make ranged shots miss with the mounted combat feat, and some mounts are a lot tougher than riders (and pretty much harmless if rider is killed). So trying for a quick kill on the rider made more sense to me.
Tried out the planar challenge, and again 50% success, 50% failure. Bela could do pretty much nothing in the White Door. In the Green Door he was a whisker from killing one of the two combatants, and could easily have handled one, but two together were too much for him.
Here's the details, since the author wanted to see tactics.
I randomized entry, got White, Blue, Red and Green in that order
White door
Bela was totally outclassed here, not having any real defense against
the breath weapon, no mobility due to terrain and no way to kill the
monster quickly with its DR and his limited missile options.Show
White Door - Show Covered Hills:
It being pitch black, Bela cracks a sunrod and it being cold, he starts
to put on cold weather clothing. In 5 round he's probably mostly just
put on his warm cloak and some kind of headgear but he's gonna
be unhappy here. While he's fussing with that, the Chuul comes
into his dim light range (60') it has hide of -4, distance mod +6
spot +0 vs DC12 fail 45% it surprises Bela
it breathes 21 damage
Bela reflex +3 vs dc19 fail 25%
horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 35%
Chraal 85 Bela 21 horse 9
Chraal init +0 vs Bela +0 it wins 50%
It moves 40' up as double move, can't quite reach Bela
Bela and horse back off 30', bela throws alch fire during movement, which on a full round
action like drawing/throwing is halfway along the trip, so he's
20' from the elemental when he throws. He rages
Alch fire +10-2 vs AC13 hits 80% doing 5 damage
Chraal 80 burn Bela 36 horse 9 40' from Chraal
Chraal moves 20' up and breathes again (Bela 50' away)
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 pass 50% take 10 dmg
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 pass 70% take 10 dmg, goes down
horse bleeds 10%
Bela ride check +11 vs 15 pass 80% lands on feet
Bela draws and throws an oil flask at Chraal hit 160% 5 for oil
can not 5' step because of hindered movement.
Alch fire burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 70 burn Bela 26 Horse -2
Chraal moves right next to Bela and swings +10 vs 25 miss 35%
horse bleeds 20%
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO hit 70% for 13 dmg
Throws flask +10 vs 13 250% hit, 5 for oil,
last oil burns for second round doing another 5
Chraal 60 burn Bela 13 horse -3
Chraal full attacks 2x+10 miss 140% bite 165% hit for 12 dmg
horse bleeds
Bela draws and oil flask, provoking AOO miss 200%
Oil flask misses (320%) but splash damage does 1
prior oil burns for 5
Chraal 54 Bela 1 Horse -4
Chraal breathes, doing 21 damage to horse and Bela, killing them.
Bela reflex +3 vs DC19 75% fail 21 dmg dies
Horse reflex +5 vs Dc19 fail 105% take 21 dmg, dies
CR6: caster 0 yet but DMM cleric is close and the other two who passed CR5 may well handle this pretty well 2.
I definitely succeeded on the first one, I'm working on the Ghoul Glyph now. Must, search, books, for, obscure, alchemical, components...
So actually it's pretty close. My my unofficial count, I see it as
CR5: Melee 3 of 6 success, with possible 4th if wealth cleared up
CR6: melee 1 of 2 success probaby the rogue would be ok too (so maybe 2 of 3)
CR5: caster 3 of 19 success with 2 more possible if they get build tuned
CR6: caster 0 yet but DMM cleric is close and the other two who passed CR5 may well handle this pretty well 2.
My count for the CR5 is as follows:
Win:
Caster 5/19
Noncaster 2/7
Almost Win
Caster 2/19
Noncaster 1/7
Lose
Caster 7/19
Noncaster 1/7
Ineligible/Being Fixed
Caster 5/19
Noncaster 3/7
I definitely succeeded on the first one, I'm working on the Ghoul Glyph now. Must, search, books, for, obscure, alchemical, components...
Just make sure that you are not metagaming
It's surprising that this one was so hard.
I'm having real trouble following your percentages.
I'm using several dice pools. The first 50% hits, then 150, then 250
Individual monsters (or my horse) get their own dice pools.
Attacks and grapple checks and other attack-roll like mechanics are one dice pool
skill checks are another dice pool
saves are another dice pool
For initiative, I have a "monster init" dice pool. If they beat a 50/150/etc threshold, the monster beats Bela. If they don't, Bela beats monster.
Only Bela's spot etc modifiers matter for surprise because as a fullplate+tower shield guy with light sources, he's -13 to hide and move silent and visible in darkness.
This is where I got lost with the percentages.
Bela rolls his first Fort save (as far as I can tell) needing a 3+ (90%) pass.
Horse rolls his first Fort save needing an 11+ (50%) pass.
I got lost here. Fort went up to +17 from raging? I thought it would only be +16, but I'll go with +17 in case I missed something.
Fort save increase +3 raging (reckless rage)
Versus the poison (but not distraction) +4 for antitoxin for net +7.
So should have been +12 and +16 (+17 was a mistake, but as DC is 17, doesn't make any difference)
Because the distraction DC was lower than the poison DC, he made a lot of saves in that fight. The horse, by contrast, didn't do as well,failing one or the other every round except 1.
Antitoxin lasts an hour, for the whole challenge.
Bela Fort save (2nd one) needs a 2+ to succeed (total 185%) pass.
Horse rolls +6 v. DC 17 (100%) fail, takes 3.5 Con damage.
At first it looked like you were stacking Bela's percentages for everything and the horse's percentages for everything, but that didn't work out either.
Without knowing how you did it, the numbers are really hard to check.
Here's how I did accumulated percentages, for reference.
Each type of roll is tracked separately; attack roll, each save, each skill check, etc.
The threshhold is 50%, then each 100% increment after that (150%, 250%), to determine success. Each time a percentage passes one of those numbers, you get a success for that particular roll.
For example, +6 v. a target number of 17 (save DC, AC, etc.) requires a 9+ to pass. 20 - 9 = 11 +1 = 12 x 5% = 60% would be a success.
That's what I did too, except all saves are on one pool, all skill checks on one pool, and multiple monsters get individual pools.
Why doesn't it threaten?
Monsters without improved unarmed strike don't threaten with unarmed attacks. In absence of improved grapple or improved grab, you can't take a grapple AOO because it is initiated with an unarmed touch attack.
Critters without improved unarmed strike, a natural weapon that could reasonably trip or a "trip weapon" can't trip on an AOO for the same reason. You have to threaten with a weapon to take an AOO with it.
I'm pretty sure it was clarified that the number of escape attempts is based on the number of attacks a character is granted based on BAB alone. That should mean, if I read it correctly, that the horse doesn't get those attacks.
The FAQ clarifies what happens if you mix iterative attacks based on BAB (manufactured weapon, unarmed strike or grapple checks) with natural weapons. Your iteratives become the primary weapon. All natural attacks become "secondaries".
Both the horse and the Boneclaw benefitted with exra natural attacks using this rule when they found themselves outside of a grapple after doing grappling (inside a grapple you can only use one nat weapon barring rake, so you don't get the extra secondaries when you attempt to grapple for damage or escape).
When grappling, I assume one "natural attack" is used up to be the "unarmed strike" . However I dont' think if you disagree with any of the above (there are other ways to rule) that much changes. The fight goes on one or two extra rounds and Bela hits the boneclaw again, killing it.
The above comes from playing a grappling PC for 14 levels with a lot of different GM's and a lot of critters with natural weapons. It's the majority opinion I've run into and how I run my own games, but there are variants.
However I don't think any of those variants affects the outcome of this fight.
Can't even do that. You cannot make attacks on a creature with total cover. Bela has used his tower shield for total cover and given up his attacks this round, so the Boneclaw doesn't even attack the tower shield. (Did you take the -2 to attack rolls using the tower shield? I just realized I didn't even check that. Also, what action does it take to 'sling a shield'?)
It's a move action to ready or unready a shield, doesn't provoke. When moving ready a shield can be combined for free if your BAB is +1.
I take the -2 for tower shield whenever it is up. That's one reason his attack mods jump around so much. I'm also careful about not 2-handing a weapon that he's been using onehanded when he's shifting from shield to not shield unless he's had the time to do another "draw" action to change his grip.
However, it looks like the boneclaw could have been done smarter. Two claw attacks each round on Bela, each with improved grab. Each round making two grapple checks to deal claw damage in the grapple. Perhaps it would work better, perhaps not, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that and other comments.
Boneclaws don't have improved grab. So they can't initiate with their claws.
And in a grapple, it can only grapple with one natural weapon even if it had improved grab, and only BAB5 so nonlethal grappling (PHB style) doesn't get iteratives.
It had a low attack mod thing that couldn't scratch Bela with shield up. But it had a reach advantage (until Bela enlarged and got close) so it used it to take advantage of its superior grapple mod on both Bela and horse. It was also getting creamed by horse mobility and missile weapons. By the time it was done with the horse, Bela was configured to win a straight up toe-to-toe melee with it, especially as it had lost 2/3 of its hitpoints already due to missile attrition.
Hopefully that's clear.
The exact percentages don't really matter - either he could overpower it (plant swarm) or use his superior mobility+healing to whittle it down to size (boneclaw..and I've played with many GM's who wouldn't think to grapple, or who would give up after the first translocation and just try to kill the horse) or he was totally messed up
(elemental he was helpless, the trolls were just too much power in one place and too resilient to kill quickly - if I got something wrong there, enough attack rolls happened that the outcome isn't going to change from a minor quibble)
As for the last encounter, no I didn't post it. Two reasons:
#1: I got my Christmas bonus; hello LCD TV!
#2: I changed my mind and decided to post it after a contestant went through the first four. Or at least attempted to do it.
Now that you've attempted it. I'll post the final challenge shortly. It's also CR 6, and doesn't use the MM3.
It's a little twisted, but here it is, the 5th extraplanar CR6 challenge.
You defeat the final challenge, and the landscape begins to fade away. You find yourself back in your original location when you first entered this pocket plane, 60 ft. from the building.
As you approach the building, you can't help but feel that your final test is near at hand, and that the magical forces of this place are driving you onward. (You may take up to 1 minute to prepare for the final encounter.) Once inside the building, you place each key in the corresponding lock. The keys turn easily and the last key clicks into place, unlocking the inner door.
You begin to open the door, and just as the slightest crack might be able to reveal the inside room, you are drawn through the door, no matter how hard to try to pull against it. The floor turns into a beautiful tile mosaic of the entire realm, complete with roads, trees, and every terrain feature of the outside realm depicted in the tiles. It even shows your battle sites.
The room is obviously much larger than the building's inner room could fit. In fact, it appears to be the size of the entire interior of the building (90 ft. diameter) with all the walls removed. You are standing with your back to the wall, and there are no visible doors inside this room, which has a 15 ft. ceiling. The center of the room has a platform 10 ft. in diameter and raised one foot from the remaining floor and obviously represents the building you now find yourself within. The floor of this raised platform is a jumble of colors, and standing upon it is a figure; The final guardian.
This creature is best described as a mad wizard's attempt at creating a new centaur-like race, except using different animals. This creature has the body and legs of a Lion, with the torso and upper body of a lizardfolk. Its muscles are freakishly large, and it glares at you with an otherworldly hatred. It wields a Glaive, though its hands appear to end in claws as well.
Monster of Legend Tauric Lion-Lizardfolk (CR 6)
Large Outsider
Initiative: +10
HD 7d8+49 (81)
Movment: 70 ft.
AC: 28 (+10 natural, +6 dex, +2 armor, +1 dodge, -1 size)
Touch: 16
Flat-Footed: 22
Attacks Large Glaive +18/+18/+13 (2d8+15) plus claw +17 (1d6+5) plus claw +17 (1d6+5) plus bite +16 (1d8+5)
BAB +7
Grp +21
Space / Reach: 10 ft. / 5 ft. (10 ft. with Glaive)
Str 31, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14
Fort +14 Ref +13 Will +8
SA: Raging Blood (if hit with slashing or piercing weapon, spray of blood for 1d4 electricity damage, range 5 ft.)
SA: Pounce (make charge and full attack at end of charge)
SA: Rake (if begins turn grappling foe, can make two claw attacks; +17/+17, 1d6+5 each)
SQ: Haste (as the spell, always active)
SQ: Fast Healing 5
SQ: Low Light Vision
SQ: Scent
SQ: Darkvision 60 ft.
SQ: Hold Breath (can hold breath for 100 rounds before risk of drowning)
Feats: Alertness, Run, Weapon Focus Claw, Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Skill Bonuses: +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Swim
Skills: Balance +15/5r, Hide +6, Jump +19/5r, Listen +6/3r, Move Silently +6, Spot +8/5r, Swim +14
Skill Tricks: Nimble Charge
With such a limited area to fight in, this is likely to end up a brawl. It has good movement, so in a 90 ft. diameter room, it shouldn't be a problem maintaining offensive pressure.
I'm using several dice pools. The first 50% hits, then 150, then 250
Individual monsters (or my horse) get their own dice pools.
Attacks and grapple checks and other attack-roll like mechanics are one dice pool
skill checks are another dice pool
saves are another dice pool
For initiative, I have a "monster init" dice pool. If they beat a 50/150/etc threshold, the monster beats Bela. If they don't, Bela beats monster.
Only Bela's spot etc modifiers matter for surprise because as a fullplate+tower shield guy with light sources, he's -13 to hide and move silent and visible in darkness.
That's what did me in. A single threshhold pool for all saves. They're still hard to track, but easier knowing that.
Fort save increase +3 raging (reckless rage)
Versus the poison (but not distraction) +4 for antitoxin for net +7.
So should have been +12 and +16 (+17 was a mistake, but as DC is 17, doesn't make any difference)
Because the distraction DC was lower than the poison DC, he made a lot of saves in that fight. The horse, by contrast, didn't do as well,failing one or the other every round except 1.
Antitoxin lasts an hour, for the whole challenge.
Bela Fort save (2nd one) needs a 2+ to succeed (total 185%) pass.
Horse rolls +6 v. DC 17 (100%) fail, takes 3.5 Con damage.
That's what I did too, except all saves are on one pool, all skill checks on one pool, and multiple monsters get individual pools.
Monsters without improved unarmed strike don't threaten with unarmed attacks. In absence of improved grapple or improved grab, you can't take a grapple AOO because it is initiated with an unarmed touch attack.
He has a claw attack. That always threatens, though I'll agree that it cannot be used to initiate a grapple (touch attack). Otherwise, all monsters with claw attacks that I quickly looked up (MM & MM2) can't ever make AoOs. None of them had Improved Unarmed Strike. Even those with Combat Reflexes.
No, as a claw attack that boneclaw threatens all spaces out to 20 ft. reach.
The FAQ clarifies what happens if you mix iterative attacks based on BAB (manufactured weapon, unarmed strike or grapple checks) with natural weapons. Your iteratives become the primary weapon. All natural attacks become "secondaries".
And the boneclaw still doesn't have a manufactured weapon to mix with its claw attacks (not unarmed strikes). Where were you getting that it has a manufactured weapon that would cause its other claw attack to become a secondary attack?
Both the horse and the Boneclaw benefitted with exra natural attacks using this rule when they found themselves outside of a grapple after doing grappling (inside a grapple you can only use one nat weapon barring rake, so you don't get the extra secondaries when you attempt to grapple for damage or escape).
If you have BAB +6 or higher you get two attempts for grapple. FAQ, page 92. Nobody gets to do this. It doesn't matter if you applied it evenly, it still can't be done.
When grappling, I assume one "natural attack" is used up to be the "unarmed strike" . However I dont' think if you disagree with any of the above (there are other ways to rule) that much changes. The fight goes on one or two extra rounds and Bela hits the boneclaw again, killing it.
It's not an unarmed strike, it's a claw attack. It may or may not matter in the end, but do it right.
The above comes from playing a grappling PC for 14 levels with a lot of different GM's and a lot of critters with natural weapons. It's the majority opinion I've run into and how I run my own games, but there are variants.
However I don't think any of those variants affects the outcome of this fight.
The only variant I think we should use is the rules.
It's a move action to ready or unready a shield, doesn't provoke. When moving ready a shield can be combined for free if your BAB is +1.
I take the -2 for tower shield whenever it is up. That's one reason his attack mods jump around so much. I'm also careful about not 2-handing a weapon that he's been using onehanded when he's shifting from shield to not shield unless he's had the time to do another "draw" action to change his grip.
I missed where it says that in the rules. Care to help me out? (Cos I'd like to use that as well.
)Boneclaws don't have improved grab. So they can't initiate with their claws.
And in a grapple, it can only grapple with one natural weapon even if it had improved grab, and only BAB5 so nonlethal grappling (PHB style) doesn't get iteratives.
It had a low attack mod thing that couldn't scratch Bela with shield up. But it had a reach advantage (until Bela enlarged and got close) so it used it to take advantage of its superior grapple mod on both Bela and horse. It was also getting creamed by horse mobility and missile weapons. By the time it was done with the horse, Bela was configured to win a straight up toe-to-toe melee with it, especially as it had lost 2/3 of its hitpoints already due to missile attrition.
Hopefully that's clear.
The exact percentages don't really matter - either he could overpower it (plant swarm) or use his superior mobility+healing to whittle it down to size (boneclaw..and I've played with many GM's who wouldn't think to grapple, or who would give up after the first translocation and just try to kill the horse) or he was totally messed up
(elemental he was helpless, the trolls were just too much power in one place and too resilient to kill quickly - if I got something wrong there, enough attack rolls happened that the outcome isn't going to change from a minor quibble)
It's clear, except the parts that are still wrong or unanswered. The main one I'm interested in is this 'manufactured weapon' that somehow is giving the boneclaw a -5 to its second attack.
I am afraid that unless they allow you to get a pounce you can't full attack in a surprise round anyway.
So, unless it specifically says "It allows a full attack", the fact that it says "If you make a jump at least 5' as a standard action, you may attack with all 4 claws" doesn't matter?
It doesn't matter for *other* reasons, but that's just how the landshark boots work.
Here is a link to the fight vs. the manticore. I didn't detail all the other fights as much. I just don't have time. I think he easily beats them all though, especially since I've finished his stats out, and developed better tactics using his Darkvision and Breath Weapon. If someone else wants to run it through the others in detail, feel free.
Upon seeing the cave entrance, he sends the bat in ahead of him to scout. He follows behind it, staying within medium range so that they can communicate via Message.
The bat should be able to find the snake via its Blindsense and escape it to report this. As already stated, the snake can't see in the dark, and by the time it locates the bat's position, the bat should already be gone. I still haven't seen the maps that are being used, but from the discussion about them, they sound ridiculous anyway.
When the bat tells Phyrexis about the snake, he casts Bull's Strength, Shield, and Scintillating Scales. He moves away from the snake if it is close enough to get to him while buffing. Upon detecting the snake, the bat moves back towards Phyrexis, and readies an action to move away from the snake (towards Phyrexis), should it enter his Blindsense range again. The snake probably smells the bat, and moves towards it. The bat continues this series of actions, telling Phyrexis about the snake's position each time.
Statistics: The snake is effectively blind, so it loses its Dex to AC, can't make attacks of opportunity, and Phyrexis gets a +2 to hit it. The mage hits in melee 4/5 of the time (+8 to hit, vs flatfooted AC of 12), so lets say he misses on every 3rd attack out of 5. The snake only fails on its reflex saves vs. the mage's breath weapon 1/5th of the time, so lets say it fails on attempts 3 out of 5. The snake only hits with a natural 20, and has a 50% miss chance, meaning it really only hits with 1 attack in 40. If it attempts to start a grapple with a touch attack, it draws an AoO, since it doesn't have Improved Grapple (yes, this is stupid). It has a +13 to hit vs. the mage's 25 touch AC, so it needs to roll a 12 or better (3/10 hits), and has a 50% miss chance. It's probably too retarded to actually even try this, but we'll give it the benefit of a doubt and say it starts trying this after 3 normal attacks miss due to bouncing off Phyrexis' scaly hide. The wizard's breath weapon refreshes on average in 2.5 rounds, so we'll say after 3 rounds the first time, 2 rounds the next, 3 after that, etc.
Round 1: Once he is done buffing, Phyrexis moves to 25 feet from the snake, and breathes fire on it and the snake saves (1/5) for 4.5 damage.
The snake charges him. He gets an AoO on it, and its AC is 8 from charging, so he only misses on a 1, so he hits (1/20). He uses Stand Still (DC 23). The snake has a +13 Reflex, so makes it half the time. So lets say it makes it this first time, and fails the next, etc. The snake only hits 1 time out of 40, so it misses.
Since the snake only hits one out of 40 times, and Phyrexis can hit it easily, easily outmanuver it (it is dark, snake only moves 1/2 speed, can't take AoOs, Phyrexis has Stand Still), and only needs to hit it 5 times, he wins easily. He almost certainly doesn't even get hit by the snake at all, even if it starts trying to use touch attack to start grappling him. This entire fight should take about 5-6 rounds.
The wraith can't hit his touch ac without a natural 20. He lobs a few Magic Missiles at it, and finishes it with more stabbing, using Tumble and Stand Still to keep it away from him. He should kill it in 5-6 rounds at most.
The huge rug has to roll an 18 or higher to hit his touch AC, and it doesn't have Improved Grapple. He has a larger reach and Stand Still, and it has crappy saving throws. So unless it grapples him in the first round, he easily stabs it to death. Even if it does grapple him, he casts Blink to escape, using Sudden Still Spell and his Psionic Focus (take 15 on Concentration) to automatically succeed. The only way the rug could prevent this is by pinning him and preventing him from speaking, which takes two rounds (grapple, then pin). This could concievably happen, but has less than a 10% chance I think (has to roll 17 or higher to hit his flat-footed touch AC in the surprize round, and has to win Initiative).
The young black dragon can't hit him without a 20, and his Protection from Energy absorbs 60 points of acid damage. He stabs it to death.
So, unless it specifically says "It allows a full attack", the fact that it says "If you make a jump at least 5' as a standard action, you may attack with all 4 claws" doesn't matter?
It doesn't matter for *other* reasons, but that's just how the landshark boots work.
Not exactly what it says.
It says that if as part of a move you can jump 5', then you can attack with all the claws as a standard action.
In a surprise round you generally can't take a move action and a standard action. It is either one or the other. You can also do that infamous partial charge, which allows pounce for full attack if you have the pounce ability.
So no, I don't see the character attacking with 4 claws in the surprise round.
I definitely succeeded on the first one, I'm working on the Ghoul Glyph now. Must, search, books, for, obscure, alchemical, components...
The Ghoul Glyph really is nasty and a good example of how casters can be overpowered.
As a 2nd level spell you can have it on a CR 1 encounter.
However, the solution is easy. Use an incorporeal undead as a scout. This tactic would work well in quite a few situations and a wraith or 1 HD ghost is well within your ability to control.
They can also be easily hidden in a tree or rock when you go into town.
Show
Sam the necromancer
Deep dwarf
Specialist, focused specialist, enhanced undead, undead minion necromancer
Spellgifted, quick.
Non-combatant, shakey.
Feats:
Flaw: sanctum spell
Flaw: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus
Level 3: improved toughness
Level 5: extra spell
Spells prepared
0-2 touch of fatigue, 3 resistance
1-2 ray of enfeeblement, 1 mage armour, 2 magic weapon.
2-2 command undead, 1 false life, blindness/deafness.
3-3 ray of exhaustion, heightened to 4.
4-2 animate dead.
Stat array
Stre: 8
Dex: 12 (12)
Con: 16 (14)
Inte: 16/18 (15) level increase
Wis: 8
Cha: 8 (10)
Saves: F5, R3, W4
HP=29, 11.5 temporary.
Equipment, master crafted composite longbow +4 strength (400 self made), 60 arrows (3), master crafted great sword (350), chain shirt (100) rod of enlarge spell, lesser (3000), 400 gp in black onyx, 6 potions of cure light wounds, 6 potions of inflict light wounds (600), headband of intelligence +2 (4000), spell book (15), skeletal minion (100)
Skeletal buddy
Stre 18
Dex 18
Con -
Inte -
Wis 10
Cha 1
Carries a composite longbow +4 and a great sword. Wears chain mail.
Feats: improved initiative.
HP=40
Spells pre-cast, false life, mage armour.
Deep dwarf
Specialist, focused specialist, enhanced undead, undead minion necromancer
Spellgifted, quick.
Non-combatant, shakey.
Feats:
Flaw: sanctum spell
Flaw: heighten spell
Level 1: metamagic school focus
Level 3: improved toughness
Level 5: extra spell
Spells prepared
0-2 touch of fatigue, 3 resistance
1-2 ray of enfeeblement, 1 mage armour, 2 magic weapon.
2-2 command undead, 1 false life, blindness/deafness.
3-3 ray of exhaustion, heightened to 4.
4-2 animate dead.
Stat array
Stre: 8
Dex: 12 (12)
Con: 16 (14)
Inte: 16/18 (15) level increase
Wis: 8
Cha: 8 (10)
Saves: F5, R3, W4
HP=29, 11.5 temporary.
Equipment, master crafted composite longbow +4 strength (400 self made), 60 arrows (3), master crafted great sword (350), chain shirt (100) rod of enlarge spell, lesser (3000), 400 gp in black onyx, 6 potions of cure light wounds, 6 potions of inflict light wounds (600), headband of intelligence +2 (4000), spell book (15), skeletal minion (100)
Skeletal buddy
Stre 18
Dex 18
Con -
Inte -
Wis 10
Cha 1
Carries a composite longbow +4 and a great sword. Wears chain mail.
Feats: improved initiative.
HP=40
Spells pre-cast, false life, mage armour.
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be broken - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Terran Brandy: 5000 silver, DC 30: 30*30 = 900, so 900 silver per week = 6 weeks of crafting.
Full plate: DC 18. 15000 sp. Voluntairly adding 10 - 28 - 840 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
1600 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 16 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star: 80 silver. DC 12 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in one week.
Fullplate (500 gp)
Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (53.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star (2.7 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
4 tools: Bow Making, Weapon Smithing, Armor Smothing, Alchemy (200 gp)
Non Expendables Cost: 4769.5 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 10 charges (150 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 10 charges (150 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (166.7 gp)
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 1000 gp
True Warrior’s Blade (Complete Champion) 650 gp
Guardinal Feather (CC) 600 gp
Horn of Gorgon (CC) 575 gp
Vial of Ambrosia (BoED)
Consumable Gold Spent: 3040 gp
Spells I am purchasing:
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (360 gp), Extended for free using a rod of metamagic: extend.
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Incantatrix Co-Operative Metamagic.
Energy Substitution: Electricity for my Ice Axe Spell: 0th level * CL 7 = 35 gp.
Maximize Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 3rd level effect * CL 7 = 210 gp.
Empower Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 2nd level effect * CL 7 = 140 gp.
Spell purchases: 865 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8675.5 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
With almost half my gold spent on single use/special daily items or spells, it seems a little odd, right? But for a caster aware he is going into the depths of hell (Creatures 2 CR’s higher), SOLO, it seems reasonable to think that such absolute preparation would be necessary.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 360 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Corona of Cold (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather, Fail (35%) 1
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Succeed (70%). Use the true warriors blade. Metamagic effect on it - this axe deals 24 (maximize) +6.5 (empower) +6 (true warriors blade) +5 (Caster level/2) + 3 (Divine Favour) + optional 10.5 (Blade of Blood) 44 or 55 damage.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers. Fail (105/150)
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 140/150%, Fail.
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success.
(175/150) Gain SR 17, Resist Energy All 17, and DR 10/magic for 12 hours. (Not persisted), Guardinal Feather
Level 3 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +4 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR. SR is now 19 - Coult Feather (210/250), Horn of Gorgon
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist) - Coutl Feather (245/250)
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
I get outside the Dungeon, and buff up the last bit, using Conviction (Coutl Feather Success 280/250) and Hand of Divinity (with Ambrosia and Extend)
Durations: 240 and 24 minutes respectively.
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 16/11/16
BAB: 3
Attack: +10 touch, for 44 electric damage, 55 if blade of blood is used.
Fortitude Save DC 16 or 6.5 cold damage and -2 str/dex until you leave the area. (10 feet)
Ranged attack +7 (3 base, 1 dex, 3 divine favour), 1d8+3 (divine favour)
Init: +1
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level and second level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
For people equally concerned about the energy substitution; I already deal cold damage. It makes sense to flesh out my elements a little. Fire and Could would be the normal choices, but this cleric, through knowledge religion, knows Demons to be immune to both, so instead picks Electricity, since he is unlikely to have Celestial enemies. Hopefully.
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be broken - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Terran Brandy: 5000 silver, DC 30: 30*30 = 900, so 900 silver per week = 6 weeks of crafting.
Full plate: DC 18. 15000 sp. Voluntairly adding 10 - 28 - 840 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
1600 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 16 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star: 80 silver. DC 12 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in one week.
Fullplate (500 gp)
Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (53.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star (2.7 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
4 tools: Bow Making, Weapon Smithing, Armor Smothing, Alchemy (200 gp)
Non Expendables Cost: 4769.5 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 10 charges (150 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 10 charges (150 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (166.7 gp)
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 1000 gp
True Warrior’s Blade (Complete Champion) 650 gp
Guardinal Feather (CC) 600 gp
Horn of Gorgon (CC) 575 gp
Vial of Ambrosia (BoED)
Consumable Gold Spent: 3040 gp
Spells I am purchasing:
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (360 gp), Extended for free using a rod of metamagic: extend.
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Incantatrix Co-Operative Metamagic.
Energy Substitution: Electricity for my Ice Axe Spell: 0th level * CL 7 = 35 gp.
Maximize Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 3rd level effect * CL 7 = 210 gp.
Empower Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 2nd level effect * CL 7 = 140 gp.
Spell purchases: 865 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8675.5 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
With almost half my gold spent on single use/special daily items or spells, it seems a little odd, right? But for a caster aware he is going into the depths of hell (Creatures 2 CR’s higher), SOLO, it seems reasonable to think that such absolute preparation would be necessary.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 360 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Corona of Cold (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather, Fail (35%) 1
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Succeed (70%). Use the true warriors blade. Metamagic effect on it - this axe deals 24 (maximize) +6.5 (empower) +6 (true warriors blade) +5 (Caster level/2) + 3 (Divine Favour) + optional 10.5 (Blade of Blood) 44 or 55 damage.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers. Fail (105/150)
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 140/150%, Fail.
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success.
(175/150) Gain SR 17, Resist Energy All 17, and DR 10/magic for 12 hours. (Not persisted), Guardinal Feather
Level 3 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +4 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR. SR is now 19 - Coult Feather (210/250), Horn of Gorgon
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist) - Coutl Feather (245/250)
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
I get outside the Dungeon, and buff up the last bit, using Conviction (Coutl Feather Success 280/250) and Hand of Divinity (with Ambrosia and Extend)
Durations: 240 and 24 minutes respectively.
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 16/11/16
BAB: 3
Attack: +10 touch, for 44 electric damage, 55 if blade of blood is used.
Fortitude Save DC 16 or 6.5 cold damage and -2 str/dex until you leave the area. (10 feet)
Ranged attack +7 (3 base, 1 dex, 3 divine favour), 1d8+3 (divine favour)
Init: +1
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level and second level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
For people equally concerned about the energy substitution; I already deal cold damage. It makes sense to flesh out my elements a little. Fire and Could would be the normal choices, but this cleric, through knowledge religion, knows Demons to be immune to both, so instead picks Electricity, since he is unlikely to have Celestial enemies. Hopefully.
Not exactly what it says.
It says that if as part of a move you can jump 5', then you can attack with all the claws as a standard action.
In a surprise round you generally can't take a move action and a standard action. It is either one or the other. You can also do that infamous partial charge, which allows pounce for full attack if you have the pounce ability.
So no, I don't see the character attacking with 4 claws in the surprise round.
Oops, just about messed up each thing. Oh well.
Well, I guess you could ... become undead.
Or warforged. They are immune to paralysis among many other things.
The Masochism and Sadism spells from BoVD, when persisted, become extraordinarily stupid. While I could have done all the encounters with +400 to saves, skills, and attack, I wanted to make it a fighting challenge.
I looked those spells up. The bonus that they provide only apply to the next round.
It's a little twisted, but here it is, the 5th extraplanar CR6 challenge.
With such a limited area to fight in, this is likely to end up a brawl. It has good movement, so in a 90 ft. diameter room, it shouldn't be a problem maintaining offensive pressure.
I like this as a final challenge - three of the four other challenges can be rather easily won with somebody who can fly and project force at 20' (trolls...enlarge+fly+reach weapon for the win), 50' (boneclaw...althoug it can jump and claw, it can't grapple from that far away as its 40' reach only applies on its claws, not unarmed strike) or 65' (elemental, although you want to be a bit higher so it can't jump up and breathe on you.
This fight will force the fly&shoot crowd to come down into the reach of your bad guy.
The legendary template is brutal when combined with weaponry. Just looking at the bonuses (ac28 decent hitpoint pool, +18 attack mods) I'd say Bela is toast if he had lived to see it. note that it can bite as secondary when using the glaive but not claw (and using both in one round on one target needs the target 15' or 10' away, so it can 5' step between bite and glaive sequences,or a target big enough to be both 10' and 15' away). The claws require hands free.
It's clear, except the parts that are still wrong or unanswered. The main one I'm interested in is this 'manufactured weapon' that somehow is giving the boneclaw a -5 to its second attack.
Ok, the manufactured weapon+natural weapon thing is described in the monster manual, I think with the troll ranger. He has a battle axe in one hand, and his primary claw becomes a secondary weapon when he uses the axe and gets an iterative attack sequence based on BAB. His teeth likewise remain secondary.
You'll see that elsewhere when a statblock lists weapon+natural attack combinations.
The rules treat unarmed strike as somewhere between a natural attack and a manufactured weapon. (for monks it is exactly both, but for everyone else it is a little more complicated).
An unarmed strike is like a natural weapon in that certain spells work on it (eg, magic fang) that don't work on a mfg weapon, and reverse (magic weapon doesn't work on a fist, unless you are a monk).
An unamred strike is unlike a natural or mfg weapon in that it is "unslotted", dosn't require a limb or teeth or whatever. The only other weapon like this I can thin of is armor spikes.
An unarmed strike is like a manufactured weapon in that it gets iterative attacks based on BAB. It doesn't matter if your BAB is 0 or 20, the principle here is what matters. (you do lots of jabs instead of it just doing one powerful swing). Natural weapons by contrast (see monster manual glossary on topic) never get iterative attacks based on BAB.
Grappling also is like a mfg weapon in that it gets iterative attacks based on BAB. For this reason, a creature with natural weapons in a grapple generally has these options.
1. Grapple like in the PHB. One option per iterative attack based on BAB, unless the PHB option is std action, such as move the grapple or escape artist. In this challenge, nobody at the tale had 6 BAB, so only one grapple maneuver could be done.
2. Attack with natural weapon at -4 to hit. If this is done, you get one and only one natural weapon (see Rake in Monster Manual) barring the rake ability. You get one and only one attack because nat weapons never get iterative attack sequences (MM glossary). If you instead had light weapon (or unarmed strike) you could do your entire iterative attack with it, at -4 to ht with this option.
3. If you have improved grab, you get one more option Grapple for damage with a natural weapon. You still don't get iterative attacks based on BAB if you use the nat weapon for damage instead of unarmed strike. You still only get to grapple with ONE nat weapon. (eg a tiger which can imp grab with claws or bite, when grappling for damage has to pick one or the other, he doesn't get both. however a tiger has rake, so in addition to grappling for damage it gets to attack with its "rake" claws at no penalty to hit)
What I did, I combined how a troll uses a mfg weapon with the PHB grappling rules. You may not agree with this, if you don't, then all it changes is that option #1 above had to be used. (if I do a grapple maneuver, I can't do other nat weapon attacks outside the grapple, and #2 prevents the extra nat weapon attacks inside the grapple). In this case, Bela fights 1-2 rounds longer and does the extra horse damage from that one round on his next hit and wins anyway. Actually I might have blown it anyway, I have a vague memory that I might have done one hoof as primary when it should have been secondary and that might have caused a miss. But looking at the damage I dealt vs damge taken, I could have gone 2 more rounds, no problem.
The only twist on this I can see, alternate ways of using the rules, is considering grapple "untyped for limbs"...freeing all nat weapons for secondary attacks. This is similar to the FAQ entry on how monks can combine flurry of blows with natural weapons. That case favors Bela, as the horse could attack with all 3 nat attacks. (which had a chance of hitting the low Boneclaw AC) vs boneclaw getting two nat atacks instead of 1 (which hit horse only on an 18 and Bela on a 20)
I'm trying to play by the rules. It isn't as cut and dried as you seem to think. Mixing grappling and unarmed strike is complicated, but the Boneclaw challenge would have been totally easy if it hadn't used its 10' reach vs 5' reach advantage to grapple.
The wraith can't hit his touch ac without a natural 20. He lobs a few Magic Missiles at it, and finishes it with more stabbing, using Tumble and Stand Still to keep it away from him. He should kill it in 5-6 rounds at most.
Stand still doesn't work on incorporeals. (they're immune to anything like that, eg, grapple trip bull rush)
You need to actually work through the dice pools to be sure of victory. While the rug, the wraith and the snake aren't that dangerous to you, their cumulative attacks will add up to one of them getting a 20 at some point if they can attack at all. Ditto the dragon, with 5 attacks it gets a 20 every four rounds. I think you are right, you probably win but if it takes you forever to stab the monsters to death AC is not a perfect defense. But if getting grappled causes you to lose, you need to make sure that the dice pool doesn't turn against you in the snake and rug encounter or add up to more than your hp total vs the dragon.
(Bela takes a long time to kill things. He gets hit a fair amount even vs stuff that can only hit him 5% of the time)
I looked those spells up. The bonus that they provide only apply to the next round.
Oh yuck, I don't think I've never noticed that before. That is why consumptive field is so much stronger.
That being said: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Easy solution regarding criticals: Assuming the 10th hit for every monster is a critical (if they don't last 10 hits) and assume it confirms by default. That's what I have been doing :D
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14598829&postcount=1813
Can we get that linked on page one?
and is that supposed to be CR six? Youch, way tougher than any of the CR 7 encounters. I'm guessing it'll be a victory either way though. That is tomorrow's project.
Necromancy now.
Manticore fight looks ok, as long as if the manticore targeted you instead of skeleton before you go into darkness (likely as it is smart enough to possibly know about skeletal DR and casters are always priority targets) you can survive one salvo of those spikes without getting clobbered.
howeverNext, the snake.
The manticore opens up with a full round attack, getting 3 hits (615%, 710%, 800%) dealing it 31 points of damage. I stay out of this mess. The snake goes, attacking the manticore, hitting (490%) dealing it 14.5 damage. It uses its grapple, and beats the manticore (95%) My skeleton moves charging the snake, causing a hit (885%) dealing 14 points of damage.
Phew. Manticore from grapple makes all three attacks again, causing a hit, a miss and a hit (65%, 225%, 295%) dealing 19.5 damage to the snake.
You forgot the constrict damage on the manticore after successful grapple. That's another 14.5 damage. Manticore skeleton now has only 10hp left. (6xd12 hit die and "-" con = 39hp)
Manticore can only use 1 nat attack in grapple (see rake entry in MM) and it is at -4 to hit. I'm not sure how you got from 800% or 885% to 65%, But I'll do it all 3 ways. 10-4 = +6 to hit. AC target is 14, so yeah, 65% on first one.
(you show the manticore ending at 800%. The skeleton ended at 885%. I don't know where you got 65% as your first iterative on manticore from those endings in prior round, but it doesn't affect the outcome)
That'll hit if you are starting from 0 or 800 or 885, so manticore will do 10 to snake (snake has taken 55 damage so far) and is still around to grapple (180) killing manticore skeleton with another 29 damage. Then your skeleton swings and kills the snake.
As the manticore was used in the later challenges, those battles need to be refought. I don't think it affects the wraith fight but it has a profound impact on the rug fight (especially as you again used 3 natural weapons in a grapple, which you aren't allowed to do, and the skeleton is what will be grappled and can't use bow or greatsword in the grapple, and lacks any light weapons. It will be reduced to using unarmed strike at -4 to hit to make it lethal). If you turn the snake into undead, it might go better, as that leaves your skeleton with greatsword outside and the snake has an ok single nat attack (it loses imp grapple/constrict as a mindless undead though)
As an aside, people are not giving the rug sufficient grapple damage. Its damage is not the slam+strength. It is slam+strength*1.5. (17 damage). It also gets to do nonlethal unarmed strike damage for establishing a grapple. per PHB rules (this is 9.5 nonlethal). Both the snake (29 damage) and the rug (17 lethal, 9-10 nonlethal) do enough damage to drop anyone living in 2 rounds, and some builds in 1 round. This is why "it only hits on a 20" isn't a good enough defense unless you're lucky. You need to be able to endure the damage once and get out reliably unless you've got a way of avoiding being attacked entirely.
Now granted on undead, the rug only does the 17, and if you have DR, it applies separately to both the snake hit+constrict and the rug nonlethal+constrict as the former happens in 2 steps (nat weapon hits, then grapple happens) and the latter is 2 different damage pools (lethal vs nonlethal) and I don't *think* even simultaneously they can logically stack vs DR. (which would you apply it to?)
Easy solution regarding criticals: Assuming the 10th hit for every monster is a critical (if they don't last 10 hits) and assume it confirms by default. That's what I have been doing :D
I've been thinking about this, I've been using 950 for my crit (or 1950) and for monsters too, but my "different dice pool for each monster" thing is likely undestating crits a little. I need to make sure Bela gets the crits he deserves...
On the other hand Bela often uses a 19-20 crit weapon which should also crit on 450 and 1450 and I've not been doing that either. I think the only place it would have mattered either way is the troll fight - I got a 1450 crit that killed the first troll outright instead of just into negatives but as I died anyway before that troll woke up, it doesn't change outcome any.
Because I mix weapons, I'd only crit if I happened to be using the sword and not something else on 450/1450 of course. Just as when I waste the 950 on a noncrittable monster etc. I'm not going to go back and redo the fights, but I'll watch crits more carefully in future battles.
I missed where it says that in the rules. Care to help me out? (Cos I'd like to use that as well.
Sure.
Move action table in PHB:
Move:............................AOO?
"Ready or loose a shield4 No
Footnote 4:
4 If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the Two- Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Interestlingly, "lose a shield" can also be combined with a +1 BAB. I assumed it was like sheathe a weapon, which can not. I think though you can only combine with +1 BAB if you actually drop the shield, as that is what "loose a shield" is defined to be. If you watch how I play Bela, he doesn't combine unequipping his shield with movement (when mounted he can, but that's different, the horse is moving, he is not...you can do your full round of action mounted except full attack, which can only be done if you move 5' (meele) or halfway through your move (missile).
Here's the detail text under move actions:
"Ready or Loose a Shield
Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or loose a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.
"
Storing the shield rather than dropping it probably falls under this action:
"Manipulate an Item
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.
This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, "
Sadly, putting away a stored item doesn't say if it provokes or not. I've never encountered a GM that said "unreadying" a shield provokes but that doesn't mean much, since doing so in combat is unusual, and I usually do it prepratory to raging+2h weapon, so that's often done out of reach of any enemies. I've got another char with rage 1/day who does the fullplate tower shield thing. He really fights in the style you see Bela here a lot more than Bela does...but he also spends a lot of his time doing warchants, bardsongs, intimidate and daunting presense so he transitions rarely. Bela is usually light infantry with reach weapon in a party context, armoring up only when mounted for overland travel or doing frontline work in dungeon crawls for lack of another tank), and when he is armored it's unusual for him to switch modes during a fight.
This solo work is causing a weird hybrid of the two character's styles. Not a bad thing but I'm still getting used to it.
Clearly there is a way to store shields that isn't equipped and isn't simply dropping it. Usually with Bela, if he drops the shield he doesn't bring it back up, so it's a distinction without a difference. There were one or two fights though where he reverted to shield use and may have been exposed to an extra AOO for storing the shield at some point rathe than dropping it. I'll be more careful in future - I'll assume storing rather than dropping provokes (although it provokes at shield up level, because AOO's happen before the event is resolved, just like standing up and taking AOO doesn' allow you to be re-tripped)
Heck all of this is worth it just to know I can drop a tower shield combined with a move. It's something I could see either character doing in an emergency and I have a gnome favored soul with heavy shield that might also need to do that to get a hand free for some reason.
Monster of Legend Tauric Lion-Lizardfolk (CR 6)
CR 6 my fullplated behind
I have no idea if you can stack those templates, don't you have to be an animal to get legendary? As expected, the "battle" with Bela was nasty, brutish and short.==================
Assuming by some miracle or short term consumable expenditure Bela survives the troll and frost elemental encounter (fly+reach weapon on troll fly+strength bow and a lot of arrows on elemental) we get to the fina challenge: - a multitemplated monstrosity!
Bela's horse is almost certainly dead from troll or elemental encounter. He's likely got one rage and no translocations (rage doesn't help vs the elemental, wasn't used on boneclaw)
Tap self with prot evil before he enters
No surprise. Init 560% wins (+10 vs +0) so it goes before Bela.
90' room, it takes up 10', 10' reach, 70' run
It charges, using nimble charge skill trick to avoid the clutter
He won't get bite, because he has to charge at glaive
distance (nearest square) and he wants the 3 glaive
attacks more than a claw/claw/bite attack.
I don't see why he'd be evil either, so prot evil is useless
doesn't matter, it would just mean the iterative is 2nd hit, instead of haste attack
He doesn't have power attack, so just:
18/18 vs ac24 150% 2 hits 41 damage
13 vs AC24 200% miss
Bela whimpers for mercy as he's now at 2hp.
seeing none, he rages, 5' step in, draws sword, slashes
+10 vs AC26 miss 25%
Monster 81, Bela 18
Monnster's first glaive attack hits for 21 more damage, dropping Bela
I like this as a final challenge - three of the four other challenges can be rather easily won with somebody who can fly and project force at 20' (trolls...enlarge+fly+reach weapon for the win), 50' (boneclaw...althoug it can jump and claw, it can't grapple from that far away as its 40' reach only applies on its claws, not unarmed strike) or 65' (elemental, although you want to be a bit higher so it can't jump up and breathe on you.
This fight will force the fly&shoot crowd to come down into the reach of your bad guy.
The legendary template is brutal when combined with weaponry. Just looking at the bonuses (ac28 decent hitpoint pool, +18 attack mods) I'd say Bela is toast if he had lived to see it. note that it can bite as secondary when using the glaive but not claw (and using both in one round on one target needs the target 15' or 10' away, so it can 5' step between bite and glaive sequences,or a target big enough to be both 10' and 15' away). The claws require hands free.
In this case, the claws are from the lion, so his hands are free. Without the weapon, his attack routine becomes claw (lion), claw (lion), claw (lizardfolk), claw (lf), bite (lf). That means the weapon is primary, and the claws/bite are secondary (with multiattack).
Ok, the manufactured weapon+natural weapon thing is described in the monster manual, I think with the troll ranger. He has a battle axe in one hand, and his primary claw becomes a secondary weapon when he uses the axe and gets an iterative attack sequence based on BAB. His teeth likewise remain secondary.
You'll see that elsewhere when a statblock lists weapon+natural attack combinations.
The rules treat unarmed strike as somewhere between a natural attack and a manufactured weapon. (for monks it is exactly both, but for everyone else it is a little more complicated).
An unarmed strike is like a natural weapon in that certain spells work on it (eg, magic fang) that don't work on a mfg weapon, and reverse (magic weapon doesn't work on a fist, unless you are a monk).
An unamred strike is unlike a natural or mfg weapon in that it is "unslotted", dosn't require a limb or teeth or whatever. The only other weapon like this I can thin of is armor spikes.
An unarmed strike is like a manufactured weapon in that it gets iterative attacks based on BAB. It doesn't matter if your BAB is 0 or 20, the principle here is what matters. (you do lots of jabs instead of it just doing one powerful swing). Natural weapons by contrast (see monster manual glossary on topic) never get iterative attacks based on BAB.
Grappling also is like a mfg weapon in that it gets iterative attacks based on BAB. For this reason, a creature with natural weapons in a grapple generally has these options.
1. Grapple like in the PHB. One option per iterative attack based on BAB, unless the PHB option is std action, such as move the grapple or escape artist. In this challenge, nobody at the tale had 6 BAB, so only one grapple maneuver could be done.
2. Attack with natural weapon at -4 to hit. If this is done, you get one and only one natural weapon (see Rake in Monster Manual) barring the rake ability. You get one and only one attack because nat weapons never get iterative attack sequences (MM glossary). If you instead had light weapon (or unarmed strike) you could do your entire iterative attack with it, at -4 to ht with this option.
3. If you have improved grab, you get one more option Grapple for damage with a natural weapon. You still don't get iterative attacks based on BAB if you use the nat weapon for damage instead of unarmed strike. You still only get to grapple with ONE nat weapon. (eg a tiger which can imp grab with claws or bite, when grappling for damage has to pick one or the other, he doesn't get both. however a tiger has rake, so in addition to grappling for damage it gets to attack with its "rake" claws at no penalty to hit)
What I did, I combined how a troll uses a mfg weapon with the PHB grappling rules. You may not agree with this, if you don't, then all it changes is that option #1 above had to be used. (if I do a grapple maneuver, I can't do other nat weapon attacks outside the grapple, and #2 prevents the extra nat weapon attacks inside the grapple). In this case, Bela fights 1-2 rounds longer and does the extra horse damage from that one round on his next hit and wins anyway. Actually I might have blown it anyway, I have a vague memory that I might have done one hoof as primary when it should have been secondary and that might have caused a miss. But looking at the damage I dealt vs damge taken, I could have gone 2 more rounds, no problem.
The only twist on this I can see, alternate ways of using the rules, is considering grapple "untyped for limbs"...freeing all nat weapons for secondary attacks. This is similar to the FAQ entry on how monks can combine flurry of blows with natural weapons. That case favors Bela, as the horse could attack with all 3 nat attacks. (which had a chance of hitting the low Boneclaw AC) vs boneclaw getting two nat atacks instead of 1 (which hit horse only on an 18 and Bela on a 20)
I'm trying to play by the rules. It isn't as cut and dried as you seem to think. Mixing grappling and unarmed strike is complicated, but the Boneclaw challenge would have been totally easy if it hadn't used its 10' reach vs 5' reach advantage to grapple.
That's, a lot of interesting, but I still can't figure out where it picked up a manufactured weapon.
Are you saying, in a roundabout way, that because he was in a grapple, when he attacks (at -4 to hit) with his claw the second claw becomes secondary (-9 to hit)?
If so, I see. It's just a roundabout way of getting two attempts at damage while in a grapple. I'm not sure if it's better to just skip the second one and use the first one at full grapple bonus though. After all, by using an attack during a grapple instead of damage during a grapple, he's losing not only the -4 to hit but also the size bonus to grapple checks and gaining the size penalty to attack rolls.
*snip shield stuff*
Thanks
I guess I always read 'lose a shield' as dropping it. After that, picking it back up leave a bad taste so I just skipped doing it unless I was prepared to not use it again for the rest of the adventure.
CR 6 my fullplated behind I have no idea if you can stack those templates, don't you have to be an animal to get legendary? As expected, the "battle" with Bela was nasty, brutish and short.
:D &
No, the Monster of Legend template can be applied to any Animal, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid. Tauric changes the combo creature into a Monstrous Humanoid.
He has a claw attack. That always threatens, though I'll agree that it cannot be used to initiate a grapple (touch attack). Otherwise, all monsters with claw attacks that I quickly looked up (MM & MM2) can't ever make AoOs. None of them had Improved Unarmed Strike. Even those with Combat Reflexes.
No, as a claw attack that boneclaw threatens all spaces out to 20 ft. reach.
Why again is it that the claw attack cannot be a grapple attempt?
No, the Monster of Legend template can be applied to any Animal, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid. Tauric changes the combo creature into a Monstrous Humanoid.
Where is "Monster of Legend" from? I know I saw it somewhere, but cannot find it.
:D
Ok, the manufactured weapon+natural weapon thing is described in the monster manual, I think with the troll ranger. He has a battle axe in one hand, and his primary claw becomes a secondary weapon when he uses the axe and gets an iterative attack sequence based on BAB. His teeth likewise remain secondary.
You'll see that elsewhere when a statblock lists weapon+natural attack combinations.
The rules treat unarmed strike as somewhere between a natural attack and a manufactured weapon. (for monks it is exactly both, but for everyone else it is a little more complicated).
[skip]
Good grasp of the (overcomplex, cluttered) rules of grapple. Just add something about monks with natural attacks (also applicable to druids with improved unarmed strike). The unarmed attack (which can be iterative) takes the place of the primary natural attack, and all the other natural attacks become secondary. For instance, a lizardfolk monk gets his flurry, with iteratives if high enough level (primary attack) and then he can attack with one claw and the bite, as secondary attacks. But he can't attack with the other claw, because the flurry takes the place of one of the primary attacks.
Pretty much the same happens with a troll armed with a battle axe, except it is more intuitive in this case since one of the claws is 'busy'. He gets a full attack with the axe + one claw (secondary, even though it is usually primary) + one bite (secondary, too) as for the MM.
All posters who have posted level 5 versions of your character and run through 1+ mini-adventures (I would prefer 2+ to show versatility) -- please make a level 7 version of the character (This gives noncasters (in most all cases) iterative attacks, druids natural spell, clerics divine power (whatever), etc).
Can one or more people post a cr7 mini-adventure to run through? We have seen the issues in the earlier mini-adventures, so the more detail possible, the better. In the meantime, those of us who could not live through some of the cr6s (like me and the extra-planar encounter), feel free to take your level 7 character through the cr6s that you could not win.
Do not post a level 7 that does not have a level 5 counterpart. Your level 5 does not have to win anything, but has to be present to be considered for scoring. This is to see how viable a build is, that might become overpowered at level X, but is weak at X-Y.
To make things easier to score/follow ... posters, please follow the following conventions:
1) Builds with changes, if you need to make changes to the build (legality/etc) please make it to the original post as it is linked from the first post. If you post a new version of your build, PM me so that I don't gloss over it.
2) Fighting a mini-adventure. When you post your fight, put two links at the top, one pointing back to your character, and one pointing to the mini-adventure. Update your build to link to the fight.
3) Fixing a fight. When your fight is examined, please update your fight based on the needed changes. Or post a new one. This allows other eyes to see things clearer (instead of posting comments for things that have already been addressed.
I'd make an artificer build, but at 62 pages, even I don't have the time to read through this entire thread.
There is no need to read all 62 pages, the most important post to read is post one. Just remember that action points do not exist.
It contains character creation rules as well as links to builds (both successful and unsuccessful) and the mini-adventures.
Its amazing what a bit of equipment and some terrain can do to some average kobolds. Even at level 7, it will be brutal.
Enter if you dare.
(I'll post an adventure with somewhat more standard encounters later)
Stand still doesn't work on incorporeals. (they're immune to anything like that, eg, grapple trip bull rush)
It doesn't matter. It can only hit on a 20, and I kill it in about 5 rounds.
You need to actually work through the dice pools to be sure of victory.
I doubt I'll have the time.
While the rug, the wraith and the snake aren't that dangerous to you, their cumulative attacks will add up to one of them getting a 20 at some point if they can attack at all.
Snake is blind, so it only hits 1 time out of 40, it can't make Attacks of Opportunity, and the mage has Stand Still. Statistically, it is not a serious threat at all.
the dragon, with 5 attacks it gets a 20 every four rounds.
That's if I stood there and let it make full attacks. Why would I? Even if I just ate the AoO for moving away every round, it would still be better to do that than stand there and eat full attacks. And the mage has Tumble, Stand Still, and 20 foot reach, making moving away an even better option.
I think you are right, you probably win but if it takes you forever to stab the monsters to death AC is not a perfect defense. But if getting grappled causes you to lose, you need to make sure that the dice pool doesn't turn against you in the snake and rug encounter or add up to more than your hp total vs the dragon.
He can automatically succeed to cast Blink to get out of 1 grapple. So even if the rug gets lucky, he just takes a bit of damage, then finishes it, and drinks healing potions afterwards.
I really don't have time to go through every fight right now, and doubt I will ever do it. I think it is very obvious that the mage wins, though.
Combats (all success):
Combat Details for CR5 Monsters
CR5 Mini Adventure
Crypt of Creapiness (2.0) CR6
Combat tactics for Kobold Cave (formerly 'Silly')
Notes:
*Dread Necromancers specialize in Necromancy and even get special features for animating dead. The build demonstrates that he is fully capable of getting, killing, and creating the undead that is controlled by him. Fell Animate (and by proxy Animate Dead) have a limit to how many minions he can have, or more specifically how many HD per and total. His feats are configured to improve the effectiveness of these undead that he controls.
Description:
Name: Gurth Dead Walker
Race: Illumian
Spellcasting Class: Dread Necromancer
Power Sigils: Naen("mind") Hoon("life") - use rebukes to eliminate metamagic adjustment twice per day
Became a Necropolitan through Ritual of Crucimigration (3000 gp) - lose a level
Flaws: Inattentive (-4 to Listen and Spot), Vulnerable (-1 to AC)
Undead Traits, type undead
Trait: Slow (move at 1/2, gain 1 hit point/HD)
HP: 35 = 12 [1st level] + 6.5 [average HD] * 3 + 1 * 4 (slow bonus)
AC: 15 = 10 - 1 [Vulnerable] + 4 [Chain Shirt] + 2 [Dex]
Attack: Greatsword +2 (2d6)
Turning Attempts per Day: 6 = 3 + 3 [Cha]
Stats:
Str 10 (2 pnts)
Dex 14 (6 pnts)
Con --- (0 pnts - purchased 8 but is undead)
Int 10 (2 pnts)
Wis 13 (5 pnts)
Cha 17 (10 pnts +1 from Level Up)
Skills:
Knowledge (Religion): 5 Ranks
Spellcraft: 5
Concentration: 4 Ranks
Feats:
Feat for Flaw) Corpsecrafter
Feat for Flaw) Fell Animate
1) Arcane Disciple (Undeath)
3) Hardened Flesh
Spells 6+AD(Undeath)/4+AD(Undeath)
1st: (Arcane Disciple(Undeath): 1/day detect undead), bane, bestow wound, cause fear, chill touch, detect magic, detect undead, doom, hide from undead, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement, summon undead I, undetectable alignment
2nd: (Arcane Disciple(Undeath): 1/day desecrate), blindness/deafness, command undead, darkness, death knell, false life, gentle repose, ghoul touch, inflict moderate wounds, death armor (advanced learning), scare, spectral hand, summon swarm, summon undead II
All levels are Dread Necromancer
Proficient with Greatsword
Level 1) Charnel Touch, Rebuke Undead
Level 2) Lich Body DR 2 Bludgeoning and magic
Level 3) Negative Energy Burst
Level 4) Advanced Learning: Death Armor (Spell Compendium, Necromancy, Sorcerer/Wizard 2)
Creates undead zombies using Naenhoon to consume rebukes when applying Fell Animate to a spell that inflicts the lethal blow. Has Desecrate through Arcane Disciple (Evil) so he casts his own desecrates. He is prides himself on being able to make his own undead.
Undead entourage:
Gurth learns the location of a cave that has a gang of four Ogres. Gurth travels at night to the cave under the cover of a new moon.
-Casts false life that will last for 4 hours (1/4 2nd level spells) 9 Temp Hit points (40 HPs)
-Casts Spectral Hand which will last for 4 minutes (2/4 2nd level spells)
-Gurth spots them at the edge of his 60' darkvision
Notes: If they have a campfire running (to cook food, etc, then this makes it easier as spectral hand has a range of 140 ft, this means that Gurth can see them from as far as possible, and stay out of the illumination of the campfire. Same goes for torches.
-Ogres are distracted by spectral hand floating ahead of Gurth. They do not see him because of the "Ring of the Darkhidden"
-Gurth starts touching Ogres with spectral hand delivering Charnel Touch, knocking two down. Each touch does 5.5 points of damage. With a 95% chance of touching them Gurth should do ~5 points a round.
-Stabilizes Ogres that can be stabilized until he has two.
-Gurth casts desecrate
-Gurth then casts two Fell Animate inflict moderate wounds using his two Naenhoons that he gets a day (4/4 2nd level spells). Ogres are animated as Zombies.
'Strong' Ogre Zombie [8HD]
**AC: 20
**HP: 79 (+1 bonus point per HD from being created in desecrate, +2 bonus per HD from Corpsecrafter)
**Attack: Magic +1 Greatclub + 12 (2d8+13)
**Extra damage and TH is from +4 enhancement to strength from corpsecrafter feat and the magic weapon being wielded.
**Extra AC is from 'hardened flesh' and masterwork studded leather armor. Masterwork studded leather armor has no armor check penalty so even though he is not proficient with it, it has no real negative side effect.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie [8HD]
**AC: 20
**HP: 79 (+1 bonus point per HD from being created in desecrate, +2 bonus per HD from Corpsecrafter)
**Attack: Masterwork Greatclub + 12 (2d8+12)
**Extra damage and TH is from +4 enhancement to streangth from corpsecrafter feat. This is the 'Weak' one because it does not have a magic weapon.
**Extra AC is from 'hardened flesh' and masterwork studded leather armor. Masterwork studded leather armor has no armor check penalty so even though he is not proficient with it, it has no real negative side effect.
Equipment:
Spent: 8320 gp out of 9000 gp. Has 680 gp in the bank.
Chainshirt (100 gp)
Ring of the Darkhidden (2000 gp)
Large Masterwork Greatclub (310 gp)
Large Masterwork Studded Leather Armor (200 gp)
Large Masterwork Studded Leather Armor (200 gp)
Large Magic +1 Greatclub (2310 gp)
Ritual of Crucimigration (3000 gp)
Enough materials to cast his desecrate 4 times:
*4 doses of silver dust (100 gp = 25gp each * 4)
*4 vials of unholy water (100 gp = 25gp each * 4)
Misc standard gear:
*Backpack, couple pints of oil, torches, flint and steel, grapple, waterskin, bedroll, crowbar, rope, ink pen and paper.
Why again is it that the claw attack cannot be a grapple attempt?
The first one can. Because the boneclaw only has BAB +5, it can only make a single grapple attempt on its turn.
Where is "Monster of Legend" from? I know I saw it somewhere, but cannot find it.
Both templates are MM2.
The first one can. Because the boneclaw only has BAB +5, it can only make a single grapple attempt on its turn.
I was referring to the 20' reach AoO attempt.
Is using Necropolitan illegal?
Is necropolitan the "lose one level and you are now undead"? If so, then you need to be 4th level.
Uses Fell Animate to get some undead at his side through the use of Naenhoon
Undead entourage: TBD
Equipment: TBD
Please start each adventure out with no entourage of undead. If you need to take actions to command the undead, then you need to indicate as much.
It doesn't matter. It can only hit on a 20, and I kill it in about 5 rounds.
I doubt I'll have the time. Snake is blind, so it only hits 1 time out of 40, it can't make Attacks of Opportunity, and the mage has Stand Still. Statistically, it is not a serious threat at all. That's if I stood there and let it make full attacks. Why would I? Even if I just ate the AoO for moving away every round, it would still be better to do that than stand there and eat full attacks. And the mage has Tumble, Stand Still, and 20 foot reach, making moving away an even better option.
He can automatically succeed to cast Blink to get out of 1 grapple. So even if the rug gets lucky, he just takes a bit of damage, then finishes it, and drinks healing potions afterwards.
I really don't have time to go through every fight right now, and doubt I will ever do it. I think it is very obvious that the mage wins, though.
I am updating post 1 to reflect this as a win.
Mage's saves are F+3, R+2, W+4. I forgot to list them in the post with the character.
Continued from the Fight vs. Manticore
Upon seeing the cave entrance, he sends the bat in ahead of him to scout. He follows behind it, staying within medium range so that they can communicate via Message.
The bat should be able to find the snake via its Blindsense and escape it to report this. As already stated, the snake can't see in the dark, and by the time it locates the bat's position, the bat should already be gone. I still haven't seen the maps that are being used, but from the discussion about them, they sound ridiculous anyway.
When the bat tells Phyrexis about the snake, he casts Bull's Strength, Shield, and Scintillating Scales. He moves away from the snake if it is close enough to get to him while buffing. Upon detecting the snake, the bat moves back towards Phyrexis, and readies an action to move away from the snake (towards Phyrexis), should it enter his Blindsense range again. The snake probably smells the bat, and moves towards it. The bat continues this series of actions, telling Phyrexis about the snake's position each time.
Statistics: The snake is effectively blind, so it loses its Dex to AC, can't make attacks of opportunity, and Phyrexis gets a +2 to hit it. The mage hits in melee 4/5 of the time (+8 to hit, vs flatfooted AC of 12), so lets say he misses on every 3rd attack out of 5. The snake only fails on its reflex saves vs. the mage's breath weapon 1/5th of the time, so lets say it fails on attempts 3 out of 5. The snake only hits with a natural 20, and has a 50% miss chance, meaning it really only hits with 1 attack in 40. If it attempts to start a grapple with a touch attack, it draws an AoO, since it doesn't have Improved Grapple (yes, this is stupid). It has a +13 to hit vs. the mage's 25 touch AC, so it needs to roll a 12 or better (3/10 hits), and has a 50% miss chance. It's probably too retarded to actually even try this, but we'll give it the benefit of a doubt and say it starts trying this after 3 normal attacks miss due to bouncing off Phyrexis' scaly hide. The wizard's breath weapon refreshes on average in 2.5 rounds, so we'll say after 3 rounds the first time, 2 rounds the next, 3 after that, etc.
Round 1: Once he is done buffing, Phyrexis moves to 25 feet from the snake, and breathes fire on it and the snake saves (1/5) for 4.5 damage.
The snake charges him while it can see in the fire (giving it a bit of a boon here). He gets an AoO on it, and its AC is 8 from charging, so he only misses on a 1, so he hits (1/20). He uses Stand Still (DC 23). The snake has a +13 Reflex, so makes it half the time. So lets say it makes it this first time, and fails the next, etc. The snake only hits 1 time out of 40, so it misses (1/40).
Mage: full, Snake: 58.5
Round 2: Mage moves away and readies an action to hit the snake if it approaches. Snake can't run or charge, since it is blind. So it can either move towards the mage and be unable to attack, and get stabbed; sit there and get shot and breathed on, or try to run away.
Round 3-7: Mage pulls his bow and shoots it to death, realizing it is no threat as long as he doesn't engage it in melee.
The wraith can't hit his touch ac without a natural 20. We'll say it hits on attack 10, 30, etc. The mage succeeds on tumble checks 3/5 of the time, so lets say he fails on attempts 2 and 4. Mage only misses on 1 in melee.
Round 1: Bat gets surprized by wraith, loses 3.5 Con and 2.5 hit points (wraith misses in surprize round, hits in round 1). Bat runs back towards mage screaming.
Round 2: Mage Magic Missiles the wraith for 7.5. Wraith flies up and attacks mage, misses (1/20). Mage misses on AoO (1/2) due to miss chance.
Mage: full, Wraith 24.5
Round 3: Mage tumbles away (1/5, success), and Magic Missiles the wraith for 7.5. Wraith flies up and attacks mage, missing (2/20). Mage hits on AoO (1/20)(2/2) for 13 damage.
Mage: full, Wraith 4
Round 4: Mage 5' steps and Magic Missiles wraith, and it dies. Bat drinks a healing potion.
Mage: Full, Wraith: Dead, Bat 10
The huge rug has to roll an 18 or higher to hit his touch AC (17 vs. flat-footed touch), and it doesn't have Improved Grapple. It hits 1 time out of 5 vs. his flat-footed touch AC. He has a larger reach and Stand Still, and it has crappy saving throws. So unless it grapples him in the first round, he easily stabs it to death. Even if it does grapple him, he casts Blink to escape, using Sudden Still Spell and his Psionic Focus (take 15 on Concentration) to automatically succeed. The only way the rug could prevent this is by pinning him and preventing him from speaking, which takes two rounds (grapple, then pin). This could concievably happen, but has less than a 10% chance I think (has to roll 17 or higher to hit his flat-footed touch AC in the surprize round, and has to win Initiative).
Surprize round: Assuming it ignores the bait/bat, it misses the mage with a touch attack to start a grapple.
Round 1: Mage wins initiative, stabs rug (1/20, only misses on 1) for 13, tumbles away (1/5, succeeds). Rug charges, mage hits with AoO (2/20) and uses Stand Still (rug only succeeds on 20, so fails, 1/20).
Mage: full, Rug: 71
Round 2: Mage stabs rug (3/20) for 13, moves away. Rug charges, and Mage hits with AoO (4/20) and stops it with Stand Still (2/20 save).
Mage: full, Rug: 58
Round 3: Mage stabs rug (5/20) for 13, moves away. Rug charges, and Mage hits with AoO (6/20) and stops it with Stand Still (3/20 save).
Mage: full, Rug: 45
Round 4: Mage stabs rug (7/20) for 13, moves away. Rug charges, and Mage hits with AoO (8/20) and stops it with Stand Still (4/20 save).
Mage: full, Rug: 32
Round 5: Mage stabs rug (9/20) for 13, moves away. Rug charges, and Mage misses with AoO (10/20). Rug misses with touch attack to grapple (hits 3 times out of 20, so lets say on 4, 10, and 16; 2/20).
Mage: full, Rug: 19
Round 6: Mage stabs rug for 13 (11/20). Mage tries to tumble away and fails (2/5). Rug misses with touch attack on AoO (3/20). Rug moves to attack and draws an AoO. Mage hits (12/20) and uses Stand Still. Rug fails save (5/20).
Mage: full, Rug: 6
Round 7: Mage breathes on rug. Rug dies.
Mage: full, Rug: dead
Even if the rug gets lucky and grapples the mage, it can't kill him on one attack, and the mage gets out with Blink and finishes it off, healing himself with potions afterwards.
The young black dragon can't hit him without a 20, and his Protection from Energy absorbs 60 points of acid damage. Mage hits on 13-20 (2/5, so misses on 1,3, and 5). With Blink going, Mage misses 1 out of 5 (we'll say on attack 3 out of 5). Dragon misses 50% (we'll say hits first, misses next, etc). Dragon needs 16-20 to save vs. Stand Still (1/4 success rate, lets say makes it on 2). Dragon saves vs. Mage's breath weapon on 7-20 (7/10 success rate, fails on 2, 5, 8). Mage needs 15-20 to save vs. Dragon's breath weapon (3/10 success rate, makes it on 2, 5, 8).
Round 1: Bat sees dragon, and flies away. Dragon thinks something is fishy, and breathes on the bat. Bat fails save and takes 7.5 damage (Imp. Evasion). Bat tells mage a dragon is after it. Mage casts Blink.
Round 2: Mage moves forward and readies an action to attack the dragon. Bat flies at full speed, passing mage. Dragon flies up and triggers the AoO, but Mage misses (1/5)(1/5 Blink, would have hit). Mage takes his readied action and hits (2/5) for 13 damage. Dragon misses mage (1/20)(1/2 Blink). Mage tumbles away (1/5, succeeds).
Mage: full, Dragon: 72, Bat 2.5. Blink 4 rounds left.
Round 3: Dragon lands and moves to attack, drawing an AoO, and Mage misses (3/5)(2/5 Blink, would have hit). Dragon misses due to Blink (2/2). Mage fails to tumble (2/5, fails), but dragon misses AoO (2/20)(1/2 Blink, hits). Mage misses dragon due to Blink (3/5).
Mage: full, Dragon: 72, Bat 2.5. Blink 3 rounds left.
Round 4: Dragon breathes acid on Mage. Mage fails save (1/10), but acid misses due to Blink (2/2). Mage says "I can do that too", and breathes fire on the dragon. Dragon makes his save (1/10)(4/5 Blink, hits), and takes only 4.5 damage. Dragon laughs and says "You should flee while you can, Youngling!"
Mage: full, Dragon: 67.5, Bat 2.5. Blink 2 rounds left.
Round 5: Mage hits dragon (4/5)(5/5 Blink, hits) for 13 and moves away. Dragon moves, mage misses AoO (5/5, miss)(1/5 Blink, hits). Dragon misses (3/20)(1/2 Blink, hits).
Mage: full, Dragon:54.5, Bat 2.5. Blink 1 round left.
Round 6: Mage tumbles (3/5, success) and misses dragon (1/5, miss)(2/5 Blink, hit). Dragon moves, AoO misses due to Blink (3/5), dragon misses due to Blink (2/2).
Mage: full, Dragon:54.5, Bat 2.5. Blink expires.
Round 7: Mage fails to tumble (4/5), dragon misses AoO (4/20). Mage breathes on dragon (2/10, fails) for 9 fire. Dragon breathes on mage. Mage saves for 1/2 (2/10), PfE absorbes 15. Dragon curses. Mage says "Maybe it is you who should flee!"
Mage: full, Dragon 51.5
Round 8: Mage tumbles (5/5) and cuts dragon (2/5) for 13. Dragon moves, Mage misses on AoO (3/5), Dragon misses (5/20).
Mage: full, Dragon: 38.5
Round 9: Mage tumbles (1/5) and cuts dragon (4/5) for 13. Dragon moves, Mage misses on AoO (5/5), Dragon misses (6/20).
Mage: full, Dragon: 25.5
Round 10: Mage tumbles (2/5, fails) and cuts dragon (4/5) for 13. Dragon misses AoO (6/20). Dragon moves, Mage misses on AoO (5/5), Dragon misses (7/20).
Mage: full, Dragon: 25.5
Round 11: Mage tumbles (3/5, success) and misses dragon (1/5). Dragon moves, Mage hits on AoO (2/5) and damages dragon for 13, Dragon misses (8/20).
Mage: full, Dragon: 12.5
Round 12: Mage tumbles (4/5, fails). Dragon misses AoO (9/20). Mage misses dragon (3/5). Dragon 5' steps and breathes. PfE absorbes 15.
Mage: full, Dragon: 12.5
Round 13: Mage 5' steps and kills dragon (4/5), or dragon surrenders.
Even if the dragon managed to hit once, the mage could survive it and would win. It is possible that if the Rug got lucky and the Mage had to use his Blink there, that the dragon might win. It would be a closer fight, but I think statistically the Mage still has the advantage.
The total rounds in combat is about 43, so it is a very close call on the Mage's 1 min/level buffs (31 combat rounds with them up, leaving almost 2 mins to scout and move from the Snake to Dragon). Even if they run out in the dragon fight, the mage would still likely win. The main things he loses is +4 to Str and +4 AC from Shield. The dragon still needs a 20 to hit him, though.
I have posted an ECL 7 mini-adventure, linked as "just plain silly" on the OP.
Its amazing what a bit of equipment and some terrain can do to some average kobolds. Even at level 7, it will be brutal.
Enter if you dare.
(I'll post an adventure with somewhat more standard encounters later)
You realize that the kobold warriors you listed are not CR1 ... right?
It states in the DMG that adding equipment can boost the CR of a monster.
Manticore fight looks ok, as long as if the manticore targeted you instead of skeleton before you go into darkness (likely as it is smart enough to possibly know about skeletal DR and casters are always priority targets) you can survive one salvo of those spikes without getting clobbered.
Pretty much. Which is why it does not see me. I never actually came into its seeing range, having been about 85 feet after firing my ray.
As the manticore was used in the later challenges, those battles need to be refought. I don't think it affects the wraith fight but it has a profound impact on the rug fight (especially as you again used 3 natural weapons in a grapple, which you aren't allowed to do, and the skeleton is what will be grappled and can't use bow or greatsword in the grapple, and lacks any light weapons. It will be reduced to using unarmed strike at -4 to hit to make it lethal). If you turn the snake into undead, it might go better, as that leaves your skeleton with greatsword outside and the snake has an ok single nat attack (it loses imp grapple/constrict as a mindless undead though)
Meh. Animate the snake, wait a day, then animate the dragon. Still works our in the end as far as I'm concerned. Skeleton has a natural attack that is decent, so I don't use unarmed strike. And the snake, when I animate it would beat the rug in a grapple. I could also have done something instead of just sitting and watching, like exhausting and strength draining the snake. I simply didn't want to have to write all that. This would also likely save the manticore skeleton. It also has 51 hit points, not 39. I have an alternate class ability listed that gives all undead I raise +2 hit points per hit point. Edit: As awesome as that would be, I meant hit die.
As an aside, people are not giving the rug sufficient grapple damage. Its damage is not the slam+strength. It is slam+strength*1.5. (17 damage). It also gets to do nonlethal unarmed strike damage for establishing a grapple. per PHB rules (this is 9.5 nonlethal). Both the snake (29 damage) and the rug (17 lethal, 9-10 nonlethal) do enough damage to drop anyone living in 2 rounds, and some builds in 1 round. This is why "it only hits on a 20" isn't a good enough defense unless you're lucky. You need to be able to endure the damage once and get out reliably unless you've got a way of avoiding being attacked entirely.
Meh. Since the manticore dies early, I have to animate the snake, which can out grapple the rug.
Now granted on undead, the rug only does the 17, and if you have DR, it applies separately to both the snake hit+constrict and the rug nonlethal+constrict as the former happens in 2 steps (nat weapon hits, then grapple happens) and the latter is 2 different damage pools (lethal vs nonlethal) and I don't *think* even simultaneously they can logically stack vs DR. (which would you apply it to?)
Neither. I can't DR bludgeoning. If it could, I would apply DR to both seperately, as they are seperate instances of damage.
I have a problem with claiming the summoner fails against the CR5 challenge, its very clear he can simply pull out the bottle before giving the manticore enough time to spike him from a distance. He has an excellent spot skill and the manticore is the equivilent of a Piper Cub. Its easy to see flying creatures (or airplanes) against the sky. When the druid spots the manticore he just pulls out the bottle and the fight is basically over.
Summons that don't need vision to fight + smoking bottle is pretty strong combo and I didn't even think of it until I went looking for creative defense options.
In this case, the claws are from the lion, so his hands are free. Without the weapon, his attack routine becomes claw (lion), claw (lion), claw (lizardfolk), claw (lf), bite (lf). That means the weapon is primary, and the claws/bite are secondary (with multiattack).
Yeah right, it wasn't till I fought it out that I reallized it was a centaur-like creature, rather than something like a hybrid-form weretiger.
I'm not sure the guisarme is the best weapon for it, because it kind of messes up the pounce....reach is too long for the nat weapons to be brought to bear. Why not a greatsword instead?
Why again is it that the claw attack cannot be a grapple attempt?
Because he doesn't have improved grab, improved unarmed strike or improved grapple.
Grappling by PHB rules initiates with an unarmed strike attack which is NOT a natural weapon. It gets iterative attacks based on BAB.
And for the last time people. One nat weapon in a grapple, period. A lot of people don't see this rule, because it's in a dumb place, but here it is, emphasis mine:
Monster manual glossary (or SRD Types/Subtypes/Special abilities):
"Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. NORMALLY A MONSTER CAN ATTACK WITH ONLY ONE OF ITS NATURAL WEAPONS WHEN GRAPPLING but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple."
Some other important bits, to make it clearer why unarmed strike and grapple are NOT done with natural weapons and are treated more like a mfg weapon, with all naturals becoming secondaries:
You need improved grab to do nat weapon damage with a grapple check:
"Improved Grab (Ex):...." If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. "
Constrict happens with ANY grapple check won by the initiator, not just grapple for damage+imp grab
"Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab."
Natural weapons (focus on the last sentence)
"Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. "
Moving over to the PHB:
Threatened squares, in combat section:
"If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity."
Grappling
"If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses)." (unlike natural weapons)
"Step 1: Attack of Opportunity... (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) " (they're talking about improved grab. Without one of those two feats you are doing an unarmed melee touch attack)
Other things:
"Unarmed Attacks: An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below)."
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed."
I think the FAQ weighs in on this too.
The first one can. Because the boneclaw only has BAB +5, it can only make a single grapple attempt on its turn.
.
No it can't. You don't grapple with claws unless you have improved grab. You grapple with unarmed strike.
People are confusing the secondary natural weapon penalty (-5) with the first iterative attack penalty (-5)
I went ahead and detailed the fights.
Thanks Phaedrus. I'm convinced now
Because he doesn't have improved grab, improved unarmed strike or improved grapple.
Grappling by PHB rules initiates with an unarmed strike attack which is NOT a natural weapon. It gets iterative attacks based on BAB.
Ah, this would be another case where the SRD does not have all the information:
Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Here is what I was reading ... and based on what it said, I thought that the 20' reach guy could attempt to initiate a grapple (provoking) instead of using his claw attack.
From what you posted from the PhB, it looks like this (SRD) is incomplete / incorrect.
1. The fleshrakers do more damage than listed (
) thanks to a second rake attack on each charge or grapple. I had assumed a single rake attack not 2x rake.2. The fleshrakers especially the druid can make a full suite of IUS unarmed attacks and then grapple to do automatic damage with all his claw/bite/rake attacks. Thanks to thier special ability to when they do a grapple check they do damage as if all thier attacks hit.
So if I get this right the druid charges, pounces. Unarmed punch for some bonus damage, bite, claw claw rake rake. Then on round 2, unarmed punch, grapple check which when it succeeds deals bite + claw + claw + rake + rake damage.
Its especially bad since one of the core classes will nearly always have that interaction.
No it can't. You don't grapple with claws unless you have improved grab. You grapple with unarmed strike.
People are confusing the secondary natural weapon penalty (-5) with the first iterative attack penalty (-5)
:surrender
I give up
Interesting stuff on grapples.
1. The fleshrakers do more damage than listed (
2. The fleshrakers especially the druid can make a full suite of IUS unarmed attacks and then grapple to do automatic damage with all his claw/bite/rake attacks. Thanks to thier special ability to when they do a grapple check they do damage as if all thier attacks hit.
So if I get this right the druid charges, pounces. Unarmed punch for some bonus damage, bite, claw claw rake rake. Then on round 2, unarmed punch, grapple check which when it succeeds deals bite + claw + claw + rake + rake damage.
No.
If you do an unarmed strike (improved or not) you lose one of the primary claw attacks, and the other claw attack becomes a secondary attack (with half strength bonus damage). Moreover, when you grapple, you can only do one of two:
a) One natural attack at -4 to hit + rake, or
b) One strength check to deal grapple damage (in this case equal to a claw attack + rake damage - but this is specific of the fleshraker, other critters do not have that kind of damage capabilities)
No.
If you do an unarmed strike (improved or not) you lose one of the primary claw attacks, and the other claw attack becomes a secondary attack (with half strength bonus damage). Moreover, when you grapple, you can only do one of two:
a) One natural attack at -4 to hit + rake, or
b) One strength check to deal grapple damage (in this case equal to a claw attack + rake damage - but this is specific of the fleshraker, other critters do not have that kind of damage capabilities)
The first is false since it states any part of the monk's body can be used for the attack. In my case I'm thinking a headbutt would both qualify as dangerous and just smooth looking.
The second part I'm not so sure about. Its possible it could allow another grapple (grapple 2x for full attack damage each time?) or it could be seperate (Headbut for ius damage + grapple for full attack damage).
In Encounter 2, each kobold has only 50gp of extra equipment. 600 gold is well under the average total treasure for an encounter of ECL 7; these kobolds have simply decided to invest some of that money rather than keeping it all in cash.
In Encounter 3, the kobolds total 3,200gp of gear (16 +1 spell storing crossbow bolts). This is indeed significantly more than the standard for them, which is why the ECL listed is significantly higher than the standard challenge rating for 8 CR 1/4 creatures.
Meyer, you are right that the kobold warriors are not CR 1. The Kobold entry in the SRD states that "Kobolds with NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3". As third level warriors, this means their CR should be just about 1/2 or so. I rounded up to 1 due to their equipment.
In Encounter 2, each kobold has only 50gp of extra equipment. 600 gold is well under the average total treasure for an encounter of ECL 7; these kobolds have simply decided to invest some of that money rather than keeping it all in cash.
In Encounter 3, the kobolds total 3,200gp of gear (16 +1 spell storing crossbow bolts). This is indeed significantly more than the standard for them, which is why the ECL listed is significantly higher than the standard challenge rating for 8 CR 1/4 creatures.
Um, the kobold warriors listed, with full plate ... have a bit more than 50 gp or 600 gp.
All posters who have posted level 5 versions of your character and run through 1+ mini-adventures (I would prefer 2+ to show versatility) -- please make a level 7 version of the character (This gives noncasters (in most all cases) iterative attacks, druids natural spell, clerics divine power (whatever), etc).
I'll start on it.
I have posted an ECL 7 mini-adventure, linked as "just plain silly" on the OP.
Its amazing what a bit of equipment and some terrain can do to some average kobolds. Even at level 7, it will be brutal.
Enter if you dare.
I completed it without much trouble (8 charges of faith healing). The most recent build is the best one, and I'll run it through all the CR 6 adventures as well. Please link that one.
In Encounter 3, the kobolds total 3,200gp of gear (16 +1 spell storing crossbow bolts). This is indeed significantly more than the standard for them, which is why the ECL listed is significantly higher than the standard challenge rating for 8 CR 1/4 creatures.
I hope you found it amusing that I stole the spell storing arrows and used them myself, right? That's the reason you don't give things like that to people with reasonably low attack bonus :D They miss, and can be re-fired.
Ah, this would be another case where the SRD does not have all the information:
From what you posted from the PhB, it looks like this (SRD) is incomplete / incorrect.
No, I just quoted the relevant stuff without repeating it all.
You're making a melee attack that provokes an AOO.
What does that sound like? An unarmed attack. Armed attacks don't provoke AOOs. Says so right in the definition of attacks.
It is unfortunately less clear in grapple than in trip, where they said explicitly unarmed melee attack.
There is a mechanic for doing armed unarmed attacks with natural weapons that allow you to grapple. It is called Improved Grab and uses a melee attack not a melee touch attack, the order of operations is different and what you can do is different (the take -20 to have other nat weapons free for non-grappled enemies is an improved-grab thing only. Normal grapplers lack this option).
I don't want to bog down this thread much more on this, but I don't really think people should be giving free feats to monsters with natural attacks.
Do you let dragon disciples grapple without an AOO just because they have claws and teeth? Do they get claw damage instead of unarmed strike damage. No and No, not at my table and the rules give pretty strong evidence that this isnt' how it is supposed to work.
If the boneclaw had improved grapple it could grapple with claws, but only by hitting with a normal (not touch) attack. If it had improved grapple it could initiate the grapple wit a touch atatck that didn't provoke, but it still would not have the reach of the claws, because the boneclaw unarmed strike is NOT the claws, and you PHB grapple with your unarmed strike (for damage, clear enough, even if they didn't use the word unarmed in the melee attack)
This would not be fleshraker. So I don't think you can add an unarmed strike sequence to its pounce.
Without reading the description, I do not know if fleshraker overrides the normal rules, but...
1. Improved grab doesn't let you do extra damage on the round you initiated the grapple, it just lets you grapple for damage using nat weapon instead of unarmed strike damage (but no iteratives)
2. Rake explicitly says you get no benefit unless you start the turn in a grapple. Some monster also allow rake attacks on a pounce (tiger, lion, etc) but not all of them. (Annis hags have rake, but they have no ability to use the rake attacks on a charge).
I'd be kind of surprised if the text for fleshraker overrides those rules. Usually it will say something like "if you hit with bite you can grapple something of XX size (must be smaller if not stated), and if in a grapple you get 2 rake attacks for XXX to hit, YYY damage". For those with pounce and rake attacks on pounce it will explicitly say you get those extra attacks while pouncing, it isn't default behavior.
I did my best, honest interpretation of the grapple rules to make it more interesting and exposed the whole ugly mess to the discussion
It is important to get some of it right (nat weapons in a grapple in particular, and remembering how constrict works) to make these basic challenges work, when PC's are using creatures or forms with natural attacks.
The thing is though, the rules aren't 100% clear and we'll honestly disagree on some. I'd rather though, that we assume honesty on the parts of the folks doing challenges, and focus on the things clearly wrong and not sweat minor interpretations of the finer points.
Or I dunno. The custserv approach works ok, but you do have to be careful about the questions so they have enough context to answer.. This one would be:
"A Boneclaw has extra reach 40' with its claws only. Without the claws, it only has 10' reach.
It does not have improved grapple or improved grab or improved unarmed strike.
#1 when initiating a grapple with its touch attack, does it use the normal 10' reach for unarmed touch attack, or 40' for claws?
#2 If it can't grapple with the claws, does that mean it can't grapple as an AOO (because unarmed attacks don't threaten and the only "armed unarmed attack" the boneclaw has is his claws)
We can disagree about whether boneclaws can grapple at 40', but I've got to ask Otto....if I hadn't introduced it as a tactic would you as a GM have thought to do it? It's extremely rare in my experience that a monster not built to grapple actually uses the tactic. I did it because I couldn't think of anything else the boneclaw could do except stand there and die, doing ineffectual attacks that got healed between each salvo and I thought it was too smart to not try other tactics. Even if it power attacked for full, it would never do enough to kill either bela or horse in one hit, and it couldn't string together two hits in a row the way percentages work in these challenges.
I don't think it really changes anything in the challenge. Bela escaped the first grapple with a swift action teleport effect and there is no reason for the Boneclaw to believe he can't do that again. (indeed there are two evil outsiders that has precisely this power and tactics) So he'd go for the horse, and eventually beat it, as he did the way I played it.
The first is false since it states any part of the monk's body can be used for the attack. In my case I'm thinking a headbutt would both qualify as dangerous and just smooth looking.
The second part I'm not so sure about. Its possible it could allow another grapple (grapple 2x for full attack damage each time?) or it could be seperate (Headbut for ius damage + grapple for full attack damage).
The first one is correct since it came form me asking custserv to clarify the point. It is irrelevant if you headbutt or kick or whatever, you always lose the primary attack and all the rest become secondary.
Me: I have a question about animals learning to use weapons and how they interact with natural attacks. There is nothing forbidding an animal to take a feat to learn to use a weapon, so I can see a druid giving such a feat to his companion animal. Some animals, like apes, actually can hold some weapons in their hands, even if just a simple club. Unless I am wrong this would give the animal an attack routine based in its bab. So an advanced dire ape with bab +11 would get three interactive attacks with the club, correct?
So what happens with the animal natural attacks? Does the dire ape get also an additional claw/claw/bite attack routine as secondary attacks?
What about dragons? The do have hand-like claws. Could a dragon learn to use a weapon spending a feat and then add a normal attack routine to the natural attacks?
What about a dragon learning Improved Unarmed strike? Or a bear? Do they get iterative unarmed attacks on top of their natural attacks? Can a multiclassed monk/druid wildshaped into a tiger hit with bite/claw/claw/furry of blows in the same round?
Custserv: There are no rules saying animals can use weapons or be "given" feats or be trained to have certain feats. I know it might be frustrating to hear this, but we in Rules Support cannot create or suggest house rules to cover situations not covered in the rules. All of the animal questions must be adjudicated by the DM of the campaign as a house rule because there are no rules for animals being trained to have specific feats or use weapons like a person can.
A creature that can use a manufactured weapon or has a monk's unarmed strike can attack with those weapons using their BAB, and can even get iterative attacks with them if their BAB is high enough. That series of attacks replaces the natural attack of the limb that uses it, or in the case of no limb, it takes up one of your natural attacks. In addition to that series of iterative attacks (which automatically becomes your primary attack, every other natural attack may be used as a secondary natural weapon at a -5 (or a -2 with the Multiattack feat).
So yes, lets give dragons EWP: Spiked Chain. Particularly the gargantuan ones!
The second is possible for a high level druid, but with bab < +5 you only get one grapple check each round (which does claw+rake damage instead of normal grapple damage for a fleshraker).
In Encounter 3, the kobolds total 3,200gp of gear (16 +1 spell storing crossbow bolts). This is indeed significantly more than the standard for them, which is why the ECL listed is significantly higher than the standard challenge rating for 8 CR 1/4 creatures.
Oooh, are we opening the can of worms that are spell-storing arrows? Expect my further characters go in with those and tromp over all encounters with a handful of cheap one-use spells.
The interaction of grapple, unarmed strike, and natural weapons is one of the most confusing (and stupid) parts of the 3.X rules. I really hope they simplify this crap in 4.0...
Agreed. They wanted to distinguish between weapons that did fast/jabbing attacks (manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes) between weapons that did big damage in one chomp or swipe (natural weapons).
The 3.0 FAQ kind of goes into the whys of it...they didn't want dragons going "nip nip nip" instead of CHOMP.
They didn't want more than one "limb" free in a grapple (hence rake restrictions on nat weapons and TWF prohibiitions in PHB).
They ALMOST used a clean mechanic in the attack roll (like an attack roll with different size mod....they did it right in disarm. By naming it a grapple check and making it unique, they shot themselves in the foot)
They made it too many dice to roll etc.
Still...I do think there needs to be a non-spell way to immobilize an enemy, to push an enemy around, to disarm him, to sunder his weapon and to move through his space. (grapple, bull rush, disarm, sunder, overrun/tumble)
If they simplify in 4.x, I hope it is reduced to a single roll mechanic instead of opposed rolls and to a single die roll per maneuver instead of multiple on both sides.....rather than taking these options away. Attack roll vs target DC based on the attributes of the defender (size, strength, maybe BAB, maybe stability etc)
Also if there are subtle differences between, say, two weapon fighting and having multiple natural weapons, these things need to be not ignored in the PHB (and especially not buried in a Monster Manual glossary. Sheesh)
That series of attacks replaces the natural attack of the limb that uses it, or in the case of no limb, it takes up one of your natural attacks. [/COLOR]
This was the logic I was using for grapple.
1. take one nat attack out of sequence and replace it with the iterative attack sequence for grapple
2. If you escape grapple and thus regain the use of your other nat weapons, attack with them as secondaries
I used pretty much the same reasoning, just applied it to grapple as if grapple was a mfg weapon, then applied logic to both horse and Boneclaw (although I think I accidently made one hoof primary doh)
Of course....if you didn't "get" Custserv's explanation this won't make any sense either.
Ikeren: Nice. Looking back, I probably should have filled the hall with rats or something for the kobolds to target the arrows on. I was under the impression they would detonate when hitting the floor.
Argaud: Go ahead, but if you're a noncaster you still need some way to get the spells cast.
The first one is correct since it came form me asking custserv to clarify the point. It is irrelevant if you headbutt or kick or whatever, you always lose the primary attack and all the rest become secondary.
Me: I have a question about animals learning to use weapons and how they interact with natural attacks. There is nothing forbidding an animal to take a feat to learn to use a weapon, so I can see a druid giving such a feat to his companion animal. Some animals, like apes, actually can hold some weapons in their hands, even if just a simple club. Unless I am wrong this would give the animal an attack routine based in its bab. So an advanced dire ape with bab +11 would get three interactive attacks with the club, correct?
So what happens with the animal natural attacks? Does the dire ape get also an additional claw/claw/bite attack routine as secondary attacks?
What about dragons? The do have hand-like claws. Could a dragon learn to use a weapon spending a feat and then add a normal attack routine to the natural attacks?
What about a dragon learning Improved Unarmed strike? Or a bear? Do they get iterative unarmed attacks on top of their natural attacks? Can a multiclassed monk/druid wildshaped into a tiger hit with bite/claw/claw/furry of blows in the same round?
Custserv: There are no rules saying animals can use weapons or be "given" feats or be trained to have certain feats. I know it might be frustrating to hear this, but we in Rules Support cannot create or suggest house rules to cover situations not covered in the rules. All of the animal questions must be adjudicated by the DM of the campaign as a house rule because there are no rules for animals being trained to have specific feats or use weapons like a person can.
A creature that can use a manufactured weapon or has a monk's unarmed strike can attack with those weapons using their BAB, and can even get iterative attacks with them if their BAB is high enough. That series of attacks replaces the natural attack of the limb that uses it, or in the case of no limb, it takes up one of your natural attacks. In addition to that series of iterative attacks (which automatically becomes your primary attack, every other natural attack may be used as a secondary natural weapon at a -5 (or a -2 with the Multiattack feat).
From what I'm reading there the druid will interate with his IUS. That series replaces one of his natural attacks of the limb that uses it. In this case he uses say, his head. In the case of no limb that answer says it would use one of the natural attacks, I would sacrifice say, a rake for the IUS.
In that situation what you lose isn't worth the single punch attack but at say level 20 when its a punch x3 it might be more worthwhile.
The second is possible for a high level druid, but with bab < +5 you only get one grapple check each round (which does claw+rake damage instead of normal grapple damage for a fleshraker).
Actually one of thier special abilities is if they are grappling you they deal damage with all thier attacks, not a single claw and rake like you seem to think.
Meyer: Different encounters have different equipment. In Encounter 2, each normal kobold has a couple flasks of acid. The Kobold Warriors in the final encounter had their CR doubled due to equipment, although its not /THAT/ much more than a 3rd level NPC can be expected to have.
Ah, so the first few sets, they are just normal kobolds ... it is only the later part (when they are called kobold warriors) that they have the plate mail. gotcha.
Argaud: Go ahead, but if you're a noncaster you still need some way to get the spells cast.
My PHB says (in page 129) that I can put a level 10 fireball in a spellstoring weapon for 300 gold (+160 for the arrow, I guess). That should clean the room of kobolds quickly.
Of course my DMG does not list spellstoring as a possibility for ammunition or ranged weapons, which is why it is generally considered arrows of spellstoring do not exist. But if you want them, I am game.
Regarding the fleshraker attack sequence, the FAQ says monks only can combine unarmed strike with secondary nat weapons if the form can normally use weapons.
This would not be fleshraker. So I don't think you can add an unarmed strike sequence to its pounce.
Without reading the description, I do not know if fleshraker overrides the normal rules, but...
1. Improved grab doesn't let you do extra damage on the round you initiated the grapple, it just lets you grapple for damage using nat weapon instead of unarmed strike damage (but no iteratives)
2. Rake explicitly says you get no benefit unless you start the turn in a grapple. Some monster also allow rake attacks on a pounce (tiger, lion, etc) but not all of them. (Annis hags have rake, but they have no ability to use the rake attacks on a charge).
I'd be kind of surprised if the text for fleshraker overrides those rules. Usually it will say something like "if you hit with bite you can grapple something of XX size (must be smaller if not stated), and if in a grapple you get 2 rake attacks for XXX to hit, YYY damage". For those with pounce and rake attacks on pounce it will explicitly say you get those extra attacks while pouncing, it isn't default behavior.
Fleshrakers don't have improved grab, they have a nastier version. If they hit with any of thier claw or bite attacks on a charge they get a free trip, then if they trip they get a free grapple attempt. If the grapple check passes the creature is PINNED not grappled and from then on the fleshraker can deal its melee damage automatically by making a grapple check.
ANd yes, fleshrakers are one of those types of critters that gets rake attacks on a pounce. I think the rule is if a critter has rake + pounce they get rake attacks while pouncing. If the critter has just rake then they have to grapple first then they can rake.
Actually one of thier special abilities is if they are grappling you they deal damage with all thier attacks, not a single claw and rake like you seem to think.
How odd, my MM3, page 40, clearly specifies claw and rake damage only.
"On each subsequent round the fleshraker can deal automatic claw and rake damage with a successful grapple check against a pinned opponent"
No, I just quoted the relevant stuff without repeating it all.
You're making a melee attack that provokes an AOO.
What does that sound like? An unarmed attack. Armed attacks don't provoke AOOs. Says so right in the definition of attacks.
To me, it sounds like an attack that provokes.
Lets quote the related trip rules and grapple rules side by side.
Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
I fail to see how the claw could not be used to make a melee touch attack (which would provoke). I am not suggesting that free feats be given to monsters. Improved grab lets you start a grapple after hitting (and dealing damage) without provoking. My question is why the monster, instead of dealing damage, cannot initiate a grapple?
If you guys all agree that they cannot ... then I will drop this, or, I can send this question to CustServ like all the other ones we have in this thread.
Do you let dragon disciples grapple without an AOO just because they have claws and teeth? Do they get claw damage instead of unarmed strike damage. No and No, not at my table and the rules give pretty strong evidence that this isnt' how it is supposed to work.
I am not suggesting that no AoO is given. But in most cases, grapple/kill is easier than attack/kill ...
Ikeren: Nice. Looking back, I probably should have filled the hall with rats or something for the kobolds to target the arrows on. I was under the impression they would detonate when hitting the floor.
Yeah "Upon dealing hit point damage."
Hilarious
Uhm, regarding the spell storing arrows debate; it's cheap, it's inane, but make sure that you read then "when doing hit point damage" part. So if you want to do self buffing using spell storing arrows, it takes a standard attack action to hit yourself and deal damage anyways.
But yeah, spell storing as a ranged enchantment is highly sketchy. I think it would be a good indication of another place where spells become ridiculously powerful - if you have a good way to stockpile them and run past the spells/per day requirements.
A minor ring of spell storing, that does similar things (albeit is way more versatile, allowing multiple spells, spells with a wider variety of effects, etc) costs 18000 gp.
Actually one of thier special abilities is if they are grappling you they deal damage with all thier attacks, not a single claw and rake like you seem to think.
I really have to wonder what they were thinking when they make a creature like this.
Lets just pile every possible special ability on it (grapple, pounce, rake), give it decent AC and strength and speed, add some poison on top and just for the heck of it, give them all their attacks again unlike every other monster in the game just for doing a grapple check.
Wonder why they didn't add constrict to each attack too while they're at it
That's fine. Layer it on. Makes it easier to take the decision to forbid it
(this is actually how I did a dragon fight, to avoid this discussion)
This is actually how I think provoking from grapple should work, but the FAQ doesn't agreee with me.
What would have happened then, most of the grapple attempts would have been fended off by horse/rider and they would have done enough extra damage to mitigate the grapple situation when it did work.
If you want to stick with the FAQ ruling saying that if you are outreached by the grappler, you don't get the AOO, then I want the distinction between nat weapons and unarmed strike clarified, because, well, it turns the boneclaw into a grapplemonster and it really isn't designed to be one.
I think the rule is if a critter has rake + pounce they get rake attacks while pouncing. If the critter has just rake then they have to grapple first then they can rake.
Well, the MM books tend to do that but you don't want to make it a general rule.
An Annis Hag with a barbarian level and the lion totem substitution level (giving it pounce) should not get its rake/rend attack in addition to its claw/claw.bite rend just by getting pounce.
Speaking of which, if I can work a ring of arming into the equipment it might be fun to do that with Bela, he can muster the feats for shock trooper by level 7 and he can do the substitution level thing with barbarian. He just needs a way to quickly swap light armor for heavy when he wants to combine the two tricks on a target likely to die from the assault. But I won't have time to do level 7 Bela for a while, this week is looking kind of crazy. (gaming Wednesday, running game thursday, holidays blah blah, then gaming convention from 27-2....maybe this weekend)
Speaking of which, if I can work a ring of arming into the equipment it might be fun to do that with Bela, he can muster the feats for shock trooper by level 7 and he can do the substitution level thing with barbarian. He just needs a way to quickly swap light armor for heavy when he wants to combine the two tricks on a target likely to die from the assault. But I won't have time to do level 7 Bela for a while, this week is looking kind of crazy. (gaming Wednesday, running game thursday, holidays blah blah, then gaming convention from 27-2....maybe this weekend)
From level 5 to level 7 is 2 levels (duh) ... will your 5th level character used as a base be able to do this? The only way I can see it, is if you add feat rogue 2 to your build (Imp bull rush + shock trooper) as your 6th and 7th level.
Shocktrooper + pounce = rocks.
Druid stats
Show
Druid 7
Str: 6
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(6) Natural Spell
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Imp. Init
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 10 +con
Handle Animal(cha) 10 -1
Knowledge (nature) (int) 10 +0
Listen (wis) 10 +3
Spot (wis) 10 +3
Flaws:
Shakey -2 to hit with ranged.
Pathetic -2 strength
Traits:
Musclebound (+1 strength checks, -1 dex checks)
Far sighted (+1 spot -1 search)
Gear purchased:
Monks Belt
4 Potions of Scintilating scales. (4x 250)
2 Scrolls of animal growth (2250)
2 Scrolls of Greater Luminous Armor (1400)
4 Potions of Enlarge person (This works on a wildshaped druid, har har) (200)
2 Belt of healing (1500)
Asst scrolls of lesser resto, remove poison etc.
1150 left over gold if someone has an idea of things to buy.
Buffed Fleshraker stats(Wildshape):
Large Humanoid
Speed: 50
Init +8
Bab/Grapple: 3/21 (+11 trip)
Armor Class: 32 (+5 dex +6 natural +8 armor -1 size +3 wis +1 monk) 18 touch, 23 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws +10 (1d8 + 7 + poison) + bite +7 (1d8 +5) + tail +7 (1d6 + 5 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Saves: 10, 6, 7
Abilities:21,19,17,10,16,8
Druid 7
Str: 6
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(3) Improved Grapple
(6) Natural Spell
(flaw) Companion Spellbond
(flaw) Imp. Init
(human) Natural Bond
Skills:
Concentration(con) 10 +con
Handle Animal(cha) 10 -1
Knowledge (nature) (int) 10 +0
Listen (wis) 10 +3
Spot (wis) 10 +3
Flaws:
Shakey -2 to hit with ranged.
Pathetic -2 strength
Traits:
Musclebound (+1 strength checks, -1 dex checks)
Far sighted (+1 spot -1 search)
Gear purchased:
Monks Belt
4 Potions of Scintilating scales. (4x 250)
2 Scrolls of animal growth (2250)
2 Scrolls of Greater Luminous Armor (1400)
4 Potions of Enlarge person (This works on a wildshaped druid, har har) (200)
2 Belt of healing (1500)
Asst scrolls of lesser resto, remove poison etc.
1150 left over gold if someone has an idea of things to buy.
Buffed Fleshraker stats(Wildshape):
Large Humanoid
Speed: 50
Init +8
Bab/Grapple: 3/21 (+11 trip)
Armor Class: 32 (+5 dex +6 natural +8 armor -1 size +3 wis +1 monk) 18 touch, 23 flatfooted
Attacks: 2 claws +10 (1d8 + 7 + poison) + bite +7 (1d8 +5) + tail +7 (1d6 + 5 + poison)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Saves: 10, 6, 7
Abilities:21,19,17,10,16,8
Leaping pounce(ex): When charging it leaps high above it's prey, makes full attack including rake, if it hits a target its size or smaller it can make a free trip with no aoo, if it makes the trip it can make a free grapple. If the grapple check is successfull the creature is grappled and pinned, and on subsequent rounds fleshraker deals automatic claw and rake damage vs pinned opponent. If the fleshraker fails the opposed trip it cannot be tripped in return.
If it trips but fails the grapple the opponent is prone but not pinned or grappled.
I pointed out the "high above it's prey" part as a nod to rooms where there is not space for this. You might also want to check the spelling during pins, you have your fleshraker raping it's target.
Regarding Grappling and reach - couldn't you just ready an action to attack the arm when it gets close enough? I mean, then it wouldn't be far away from you, and I know when I fence and the guy is way taller and got reach on me, I wait for him to attack and then try to move in.
Not by RAW, since a character cannot AoO someone that he is not threatening, but I seem to remember the Sage recommending this to be allowed.
As a complement to cleverness, we have a great use of the commoner effect. That is, you hand a powerful item to an otherwise powerless peon in order to expand your actions for several rounds.
I must ask: with all the situational problems posed here, do these encounters stay CR7? Given a potential 64d6 (224 average, 112 with save) damage on the first round, this attack would TPK my level 14 party.
I pointed out the "high above it's prey" part as a nod to rooms where there is not space for this.
On a natural 20, without a running start it's going to be able to hit a maximum height of 5' when jumping, and only 4' on average. With running it's going to hit about 8' when running on average.
I'd say the "high above it's prey" line is little more than fluff text unless it only attacks tiny creatures. The ceiling height is unlikely to be an issue.
Grizley, there are errors in your description of Leaping Pounce.
I pointed out the "high above it's prey" part as a nod to rooms where there is not space for this. You might also want to check the spelling during pins, you have your fleshraker raping it's target.
I'd say "raping it's target" is pretty accurate. I'd bet that was intentional. :D
=ArgaudRegarding Grappling and reach - couldn't you just ready an action to attack the arm when it gets close enough? I mean, then it wouldn't be far away from you, and I know when I fence and the guy is way taller and got reach on me, I wait for him to attack and then try to move in.
Not by RAW, since a character cannot AoO someone that he is not threatening, but I seem to remember the Sage recommending this to be allowed.
Umm... he didn't suggest making an AoO. He said use a readied action. Technically, you're still correct that he can't reach the target, though, but I also remember the Sage recommending allowing it, because obviously the part of the creature that is hitting you is within reach at the moment it hits you.
Reall tired when I made this one, so most has some big errors of some sort.
Your character is carrying (40 (tanglefoot) +4 (crossbow) +4 (bolts) +1(potion) +stuff) at least 49 pounds, putting him squarely in the medium encumberance (light is up to 26 pounds). This does not reduce your AC, but it does reduce your movement to 30' (base 30+ quick 10 = 40, medium encumbrance = 30)
Against manticore:
Paul and the manticore see each other, and roll for initiatives. I win initiatives (75%) and move in close enough to throw a tangle foot bag at him. I hit (70%) and the manticore fails its save (60%) falling to the ground, taking about 7 points of falling damage. The manticore looses a volley of spikes on me, and I take 3 hits (270%) and lose 19.5 points off of my protection from arrows.
Ok, so pre-round one, you two find yourselves staring at each other.
Your turn, you reach into your backpack (move action) to pull out the tanglefoot bag, approach the manticore (move action) and throw it (standard)?
Or did you have the tanglefoot bag out prior to meeting the manticore?
[edit]I don't know how you hit 70% of the time with a ranged attack bonus of +3 (BAB 2, Dex +1) vs flatfooted touch ac of 9. When I run the numbers, you hit 75% of the time (with no range increment). Each 10' distance you are from it (minimum of 1 range increments as you explained to me earlier) reduces the hit change. Assuming you are directly below it, which results in a 65% chance. This requires the encounter to start with 30' ground movement between you and 20' vertical distance, which is less than the 60' darkvision you both have.
The manticore has a +7 (+5 with penalty) ref save vs dc 15 tanglefoot bag. It succeeds more than 40% of the time (actually 55% of the time), so it doesn't fall.
I fiery burst the manticore, it passes the save (165%) and takes 7 damage. He flings spikes at me again, and I abrupt jaunt out of there way.
How does abrupt jaunting protect you from all 6 spike attacks?
Next encounter is the snake.
[sblock]Snake and I notice each other, and it attacks. (145%) and misses (855%). I move back 40 feet, am now 50 feet away, and cast sleet storm so I’m at the edge of it. Snake takes 8 damage, and moves 10 feet forward.
You actually move 30' because of encumbrance (assuming you used less than 6 tanglefoot bags before).
Vs. The wraith.
[sblock]I win initiative vs the wraith (195%) and fiery burst, which does nothing, and move too close for the wraith to charge. The wraith attacks, and hits (75%) and I fail my save (55%). Taking 3.5 con damage and 2.5 damage.
3.5 con damage also results in the loss of 10 hps. If your hps were where they were after the manticore fight you posted (14+6.5), then you now have 8 hps left.
Your AC is (10+4 (mage armor)+2(prot evil)+1(dex)-1(aggressive)+4(shield)+1(ring))=21, it's attack bonus is +5, so it hits 25% of the time, which is 5% more than what you show (so it is 80% (hit), 105%, 130%, 155%, 180%(hit))
Meaning that the round before you post that it died from fiery bust, it deals 2.5 damage, potentially killing you (depending on your save).
I go down the hall to the rug,ShowRug snatches me up on the surprise round. It touches (640%) and succeeds the grapple check. (95%) I take 14 damage. We roll initiatives and I win. (195%) and make a concentration check and readied action to move away. I fail (55%). Its turn, it tries to squeeze me, but as a reaction, I make another concentration check and pass (110%) getting 10 feet away. My readied action goes off, and I 5 step away. Rug moves to right beside me.
I use abrupt jaunt to get further away (15 feet now) and cast fiery burst on the carpet (570%). I then move down the hall, out of its charge range. Eventually, the carpet dies, so long as I stay out of its charge range, and use fiery bursts and crossbow bolts. It depends on how the carpet moves for how I act, but it never does catch up to me.
I use 1 potion of cure light wounds and my last scroll of false life. (neither is necessary.)
I don't know how you hit 70% of the time with a ranged attack bonus of +3 (BAB 2, Dex +1) vs flatfooted ac of 15. When I run the numbers, you hit 45% of the time (with no range increment). Which means you miss.
actually notice:
Tanglefoot Bag: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air.
thus it is a Ranged touch attack vs Flatfooted opponent
The manticore has a +7 ref save vs dc 15 tanglefoot bag. It succeeds more than 40% of the time (actually 65% of the time), so it doesn't fall (not that it needs to make the save, as you missed on the attack).
the Manticore is still Entangled(-2 Attack and -4 penalty to Dex)... the Ref save is only to keep from sticking to the floor or falling to the ground.... but it has a -4 to dex, so it may fail the ref save.... notice:
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
:D
Otto, I'm cool with it grappling with the claws if you also assume it provokes and I can deflect it by hitting in spite of the fact that the creature outreaches me.
(this is actually how I did a dragon fight, to avoid this discussion)
This is actually how I think provoking from grapple should work, but the FAQ doesn't agreee with me.
What would have happened then, most of the grapple attempts would have been fended off by horse/rider and they would have done enough extra damage to mitigate the grapple situation when it did work.
If you want to stick with the FAQ ruling saying that if you are outreached by the grappler, you don't get the AOO, then I want the distinction between nat weapons and unarmed strike clarified, because, well, it turns the boneclaw into a grapplemonster and it really isn't designed to be one.
Rather than get into a big rant about how stupid I think this whole grapple mess is, I'm going to go with the tried and true "If you think you're using the grapple rules correctly, then leave it as you've already described it."
As for the hit-and-run tactics making it so the boneclaw couldn't do much of anything, I'd think that Hide +13, cover from the orchard, 50 ft. visibility, and 40 ft. movement with 20 ft. reach may work in the boneclaw's favor. Even if that hide wouldn't work, just ready an action to attack when he can see the PC allows that big move and reach to get an attack off. Perhaps not so effective against a huge armor classed PC, but it's something for any others to think about. If any others decide to even try it.
actually notice:
thus it is a Ranged touch attack vs Flatfooted opponent
Stupid rules getting in my way ... Sorry about that. I corrected my post
the Manticore is still Entangled(-2 Attack and -4 penalty to Dex)... the Ref save is only to keep from sticking to the floor or falling to the ground.... but it has a -4 to dex, so it may fail the ref save.... notice:
I agree that it would be entangled, but it does not fail its save nor fall like the posted said.
actually notice:
thus it is a Ranged touch attack vs Flatfooted opponent
the Manticore is still Entangled(-2 Attack and -4 penalty to Dex)... the Ref save is only to keep from sticking to the floor or falling to the ground.... but it has a -4 to dex, so it may fail the ref save.... notice:
:D
That's something I took into account when I ran the numbers, and the manticore still made fertilizer out of him.
CR5 Encounters all success for Gurth Dead Walker
General Notes
I tried to do what I thought was mostly worst case for Gurth - suprised in every encounter since he is 'inattentive'. He will travel at night to make the best use of his 'Ring of the Darkhidden'.
Charnel touch heals: 1 points plus 1 point per four levels to undead. It also hurts for 1d8 + 1 per four levels.
General 'wandering' will be with 'Weak' Ogre Zombie 40 ft in front. Idea is that he is the 'man' on point. This would be routine for 'wandering' outside. Standing orders for 'point man' Ogre Zombie are to attack anything that threatens or attacks the party. Standing orders for the 'Strong' Ogre Zombie are to stay next to Gurth at all times and swing with his club on anything in reach that threatens or is attacking the party.
Dungeon crawls traveling would use summon undead to test out 'new' rooms and what not. The 'wandering' pattern would fall into the default when spells are low or the summon monster would not last long enough for the task
Since 'False Life' has a duration of hours, he will try to keep it running.
Resources (renewable): spells - 6+AD(Undeath)/4+AD(Undeath)
I tried to do what I thought was mostly worst case for Gurth - suprised in every encounter since he is 'inattentive'. He will travel at night to make the best use of his 'Ring of the Darkhidden'.
Charnel touch heals: 1 points plus 1 point per four levels to undead. It also hurts for 1d8 + 1 per four levels.
General 'wandering' will be with 'Weak' Ogre Zombie 40 ft in front. Idea is that he is the 'man' on point. This would be routine for 'wandering' outside. Standing orders for 'point man' Ogre Zombie are to attack anything that threatens or attacks the party. Standing orders for the 'Strong' Ogre Zombie are to stay next to Gurth at all times and swing with his club on anything in reach that threatens or is attacking the party.
Dungeon crawls traveling would use summon undead to test out 'new' rooms and what not. The 'wandering' pattern would fall into the default when spells are low or the summon monster would not last long enough for the task
Since 'False Life' has a duration of hours, he will try to keep it running.
Resources (renewable): spells - 6+AD(Undeath)/4+AD(Undeath)
Is necropolitan the "lose one level and you are now undead"? If so, then you need to be 4th level.
Did as level 4 character and starting equipement for level 4 character.
Combat is here: Gurth Dead Walker CR5 Monsters
All should be expected survival through wins in combat.
Did as level 4 character and starting equipement for level 4 character.
Combat is here: Gurth Dead Walker CR5 Monsters
All should be expected survival through wins in combat.
You should be level 4 character, with starting cash of level 5 (the necropolitan is basically a LA+1 template). Else, when you pay the 3000gp for the process you have really overspent.
However, most of the power you show, is based on the ogres you start with. A commoner could hire wartrolls (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) similarly to the undead starting with the ogres.
You should be level 4 character, with starting cash of level 5 (the necropolitan is basically a LA+1 template). Else, when you pay the 3000gp for the process you have really overspent.
However, most of the power you show, is based on the ogres you start with. A commoner could hire wartrolls (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) similarly to the undead starting with the ogres.
3000g does not put him over (starting gold is 5400 for 4th level). Just means he has more gold to play with if he can use a 5th level character starting gold.
He is a Dread Necromancer after all. His power comes from using 'Animate Dead' and having undead, especially in early levels. At higher levels he abuses Persisted Consumptive Field.
CR5 Encounters all success for Gurth Dead Walker
Giant Constrictor Snake
Assume worst case for Gurth - Surprise with snake focusing on Gurth, ignoring the two large Ogre Zombies. Also assume Gurth loses initiative which is unlikely.
Round 1 - Surprise Gurth takes 13 damage from snake and is grappled through improved grab. Snake takes 4 damage from 'Death Armor'
Gurth Status: 9 temp hit points used, 27 hit points remaining
Snake Status: 59 hit points left
The snake has constrict and improved grab. That means it does both bite damage and constrict damage if it bites you and succeeds on its grapple check.
If it continues to grapple, damaging you via grapple checks, you only take the Constrict damage (at least the way I read it). It can make two grapple checks per round, thanks to having a +8 BAB, though.
The way you've described this, I think the snake would kill Gurth. However, the snake is dumb and doesn't have darkvision. So you could probably beat it with better tactics.
Gurth Casts 'Inflict Moderate Wounds' on self for 13 points of healing, combined with 5.5 from Charnel Touch, and takes 5 points of damage from 'Death Armor'. Drops prone for +4 to AC
Charnal touch only heals undead for 1 hit point, I think.
I also noticed a mistake that I'd made with my character. The elven generalist substitution level only gives you an extra slot at your highest level spell, not every spell level. However, I forgot to use Mirror Image in the final version of the tactics, so that one didn't matter. And since I was underspent by almost 3,000, he could have used Mage Armor from a scroll. So it wouldn't have changed anything.
I'm working on making the level 7 version now. Can we use retraining per the PHB2 to change feats out?
3000g does not put him over (starting gold is 5400 for 4th level). Just means he has more gold to play with if he can use a 5th level character starting gold.
He is a Dread Necromancer after all. His power comes from using 'Animate Dead' and having undead, especially in early levels. At higher levels he abuses Persisted Consumptive Field.
3000 (ritual) + 2300 (club) + other stuff ... is more than 4th level character (5400).
I just pointed out that the character is actually level 5 (4+ritual) so he should have 5th level starting cash.
The snake has constrict and improved grab. That means it does both bite damage and constrict damage if it bites you and succeeds on its grapple check.
Grapple always confuses me...but I thought constrict is just a free hit and it only has one attack. Granted - I put all of these in about the worst conditions I could on purpose. Improving the conditions would make it easier. It is also more likely the snake would attack the ogre - animal instinct since it will be closer and more threatening, right?
If it continues to grapple, damaging you via grapple checks, you only take the Constrict damage (at least the way I read it). It can make two grapple checks per round, thanks to having a +8 BAB, though.
The way you've described this, I think the snake would kill Gurth. However, the snake is dumb and doesn't have darkvision. So you could probably beat it with better tactics.
Charnal touch only heals undead for 1 hit point, I think.
Hmm, good spot on the Charnel Touch. He could use Negative Energy Burst to offset so not too big a deal.
Grapple always confuses me...but I thought constrict is just a free hit and it only has one attack. Granted - I put all of these about the worst conditions I could. Improving the conditions would make it easier. It is also more likely the snake would attack the ogre - animal instict since it will be closer and more threatening, right?
I don't think the snake would willingly attack the ogres or your character at all. They are undead, and hence "unnatural". If you were training an animal for combat, you'd have to teach it "attack" twice just to get it to attack an undead at all.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
That certainly makes the "encounter" alot less interesting, though. :P
Yeah, grappling and all the stuff that goes with it is very confusing. Here is the entry for the Constrict special attack from the SRD, though:
Constrict
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
I don't think the snake would willingly attack the ogres or your character at all.
Yeah - was just making it as hard, even if unlikely, as possible. It should be an easy victory sending the zombie ogre's out, especially if there is no 'surprise' round.
Based on the constrict I would have to do it with this approach.
I must ask: with all the situational problems posed here, do these encounters stay CR7? Given a potential 64d6 (224 average, 112 with save) damage on the first round, this attack would TPK my level 14 party.
Spell resistance and Energy resistance, as well as decent AC (spell storing arrows have to deal damage to release their charge) can protect you from it. The shocker lizards are more dangerous at 12d8, but again, high saves and energy resistance will save the day.
Thus far, the cleric has beat 1 CR 5 encounter (The original), 1 CR 6 encounter (Crypt of Undead 1), and 1 CR 7 encounter (Fun with Kobolds). I am going to start working on the 2 variant CR 6's (Ghoul Glyph Crpyt of Undead 2, and the Extraplanar nightmare (which, I believe might be closer to CR7).
I'm working on making the level 7 version now. Can we use retraining per the PHB2 to change feats out?
Kinda.
I would prefer that you keep the same character concept (i.e. only tweaking) -- for instance, I already posted that my level 10 character is going to retrain out the Martial Study: Burning Blade when he picks up swordsage and grabs that maneuver from the class.
Things like that, feel free.
Things that change the character a lot (i.e. I retain to become a DMM Cleric) are not allowed.
Basically, if you do not think that there will be an issue with it ... then go ahead.
I'm looking at the new challenge. I have no idea how I will get Joe Whitebread through the level 7. The entire situation is built to deny the use of melee abilities.
As a complement to cleverness, we have a great use of the commoner effect. That is, you hand a powerful item to an otherwise powerless peon in order to expand your actions for several rounds.
I must ask: with all the situational problems posed here, do these encounters stay CR7? Given a potential 64d6 (224 average, 112 with save) damage on the first round, this attack would TPK my level 14 party.
Aye. First time I read through that adventure I was shaking my head and repeating WTF over and over to myself. The specifics of the encounters adjusts the CR dramatically. Especially one with the pit trap followed by pwnage.
Although, I do agree that spell-storing arrows aren't RAW. Furthermore, the "pick up all the misses" tactic is pretty easy to abuse here; stupid kobolds.
I'd say "raping it's target" is pretty accurate. I'd bet that was intentional. :D
It wasn't intentional, but it is far too accurate to correct. If you're pinned and eating claw and rake damage from a venomfire fleshraker you're pretty hosed.
Although, I do agree that spell-storing arrows aren't RAW. Furthermore, the "pick up all the misses" tactic is pretty easy to abuse here; stupid kobolds.
50% of them will be destroyed if they miss. Also, even the ones that don't automatically break from missing will be unattended and caught in the area of the ones that don't miss. So, I doubt many will survive.
3000 (ritual) + 2300 (club) + other stuff ... is more than 4th level character (5400).
I just pointed out that the character is actually level 5 (4+ritual) so he should have 5th level starting cash.
grr arg - didn't add something. I will go through and double check and make corrections. So far issues seem to be fairly minor and correctable. Don't think I overspent the 5400 by too much and I have 9000 to play with. I'll update the snake encounter to be a non-encounter - as PhaedrusXY pointed out.
Corrections I need to do:
- double check money - likely have more but over spent for 4th
- redo snake encounter as non-encounter
- look through dragon and manticore encounters to deal with and account for the incorrect application of Charnel Touch.
Oh yeah, something else I noticed. Do you get to pay only 50 gp per skeleton to animate stuff as a Dread Necro? Normally it is 50 gp per hit die.
Animate Dead: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per hit die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate.
Ok, so Ogre zombie undead are 8 HD, so they should cost 200 gp each right? I was originally doing 100 gp for 4 HD (the base Ogre HD). Correcting right now.
thanks for any help
:D
grr arg - didn't add something. I will go through and double check and make corrections. So far issues seem to be fairly minor and correctable. Don't think I overspent the 5400 by too much and I have 9000 to play with. I'll update the snake encounter to be a non-encounter - as PhaedrusXY pointed out.
Corrections I need to do:
- double check money - likely have more but over spent for 4th
- redo snake encounter as non-encounter
- look through dragon and manticore encounters to deal with and account for the incorrect application of Charnel Touch.
I did a run through trying to fix up stuff.
Build: Gurth Dead Walker
CR5 Monsters: Combat Details (yes, the build does use the Zombies since having undead is a core part of being a Dread Necromancer)
Note: I intentionally used simple and straightforward tactics with the manticore and young black dragon. I also gave favor to the 'enemy' by doing things like allowing the dragon to breath every other round and having the Manticore only throw spikes at Gurth trying to kill him. This should also give leeway for minor mistakes on my part.
Let me know if this is better.
From level 5 to level 7 is 2 levels (duh) ... will your 5th level character used as a base be able to do this? The only way I can see it, is if you add feat rogue 2 to your build (Imp bull rush + shock trooper) as your 6th and 7th level.
Shocktrooper + pounce = rocks.
would be fighter 3 and 4 actually. L6 feat and l7 fighter feat.
Not sure I want to do that though, need to run the math on equipment. I think I can't pounce in heavy armor, so I need a way to switch modes and it may cost too much with L7 cash.
50% of them will be destroyed if they miss. Also, even the ones that don't automatically break from missing will be unattended and caught in the area of the ones that don't miss. So, I doubt many will survive.
Also spell storing weapons only allow targeted effects, so all area spells are right out. I've not done that one yet, but spell storing fireball arrows don't actually work. You need kobold ruathar arcane archers for that (assuming ruathar lets you qualify as an elf, which it probably does not).
I realized that in my last run I was 56 gp over. The easy solution is to use the DMG’s pricing guide, and say I bought rod of extend from a religious organization which had a “cleric only” rod of extend lying around somewhere. Everyone on the char-op forums knows how cheesy the repricing rules are, but it would take me forever to rerun all the numbers without one of those alchemical items, so I won’t waste my time.
However, this is also another indication of how over powered casters can be - they can make their own magical items, with the skill and class -40% cost, for members of their party. So while it may be cheesy, it is just another way, by the written rules, that casters gain an edge. Note that I am not doing this for all my gear, or for unreasonable things; just one item that makes some sense.
Other Considerations: Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
—Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
—Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.
Another note: At this point, my consumable costs go past my normal gear costs, but I am beating 5 CR 5 encounters (8000 gp) 5 Cr 6 encounters (10000 gp) or 5 CR 7 encounters (12000 gp), as well as 7500 exp, 11250 exp, or 15000 exp, which is way more than the character needs to level, so he could always power up using LA Buyoff or Magic item creation to bring wealth-by-level guidelines on par.
However, even with the expenditure, the character, from 5th to 6th, gains 3000 gp if CR 5 encounters (1000 below wealth per level), 5000 if CR 6 (1000 above wealth per level) or 7000 if CR 7 (3000 above wealth per level). So there is no real problem here.
Show
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be nice and powerful - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Terran Brandy: 5000 silver, DC 30: 30*30 = 900, so 900 silver per week = 6 weeks of crafting.
Full plate: DC 18. 15000 sp. Voluntairly adding 10 - 28 - 840 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
1600 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 16 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star: 80 silver. DC 12 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in one week.
Fullplate (500 gp)
Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (53.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star (2.7 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser, Usable by Clerics (2100 gp)
1 tool: Alchemy (50 gp). I trade it with other craftsmen for other tools as I need, but all the rest DC can be made without the tool.
1 Capsule Retainer from Complete Adventurer, page 120 (100 gp)
Non Expendables Cost: 3819.5 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 10 charges (150 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 10 charges (150 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (166.7 gp)
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 1000 gp
True Warrior’s Blade (Complete Champion) 650 gp
Guardinal Feather (CC) 600 gp
Horn of Gorgon (CC) 575 gp
Vial of Ambrosia (BoED) (200gp)
Potion of Swift Haste (300 gp) in tooth capsule.
Consumable Gold Spent: 3871.7 gp
Spells I am purchasing:
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (360 gp), Extended for free using a rod of metamagic: extend.
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Incantatrix Co-Operative Metamagic.
Energy Substitution: Electricity for my Ice Axe Spell: 0th level * CL 7 = 35 gp.
Maximize Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 3rd level effect * CL 7 = 210 gp.
Empower Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 2nd level effect * CL 7 = 140 gp.
Spell purchases: 865 gp
Total Consumable/Non lasting: 4736.7 gp.
Total Gold Spent: 8556.5 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, mundane things, spell components and foci, etc.
With almost half my gold spent on single use/special daily items or spells, it seems a little odd, right? But for a caster aware he is going into the depths of hell (Creatures 2 CR’s higher), SOLO, it seems reasonable to think that such absolute preparation would be necessary.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 360 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Corona of Cold (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather, Fail (35%) 1
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Succeed (70%). Use the true warriors blade. Metamagic effect on it - this axe deals 24 (maximize) +6.5 (empower) +6 (true warriors blade) +5 (Caster level/2) + 3 (Divine Favour) + optional 10.5 (Blade of Blood) 44 or 55 damage.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers. Fail (105/150)
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 140/150%, Fail.
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success.
(175/150) Gain SR 17, Resist Energy All 17, and DR 10/magic for 12 hours. (Not persisted), Guardinal Feather
Level 3 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +4 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR. SR is now 19 - Coult Feather (210/250), Horn of Gorgon
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist) - Coutl Feather (245/250)
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
I get outside the Dungeon, and buff up the last bit, using Conviction (Coutl Feather Success 280/250) and Hand of Divinity (with Ambrosia and Extend)
Durations: 240 and 24 minutes respectively.
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 16/11/16
BAB: 3
Attack: +10 touch, for 44 electric damage, 55 if blade of blood is used.
Fortitude Save DC 16 or 6.5 cold damage and -2 str/dex until you leave the area. (10 feet)
Ranged attack +7 (3 base, 1 dex, 3 divine favour), 1d8+3 (divine favour)
Init: +1
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level and second level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
For people equally concerned about the energy substitution; I already deal cold damage. It makes sense to flesh out my elements a little. Fire and Could would be the normal choices, but this cleric, through knowledge religion, knows Demons to be immune to both, so instead picks Electricity, since he is unlikely to have Celestial enemies. Hopefully.
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
You’ll notice changes. This isn’t out of some desire to metagame, but simply because I have combed books for spells and gear that are optimal, and did not have this knowledge when I first started building this character.
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be nice and powerful - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Terran Brandy: 5000 silver, DC 30: 30*30 = 900, so 900 silver per week = 6 weeks of crafting.
Full plate: DC 18. 15000 sp. Voluntairly adding 10 - 28 - 840 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
1600 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 16 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star: 80 silver. DC 12 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in one week.
Fullplate (500 gp)
Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (53.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star (2.7 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser, Usable by Clerics (2100 gp)
1 tool: Alchemy (50 gp). I trade it with other craftsmen for other tools as I need, but all the rest DC can be made without the tool.
1 Capsule Retainer from Complete Adventurer, page 120 (100 gp)
Non Expendables Cost: 3819.5 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 10 charges (150 gp)
Wand of Blade of Blood 10 charges (150 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
1 Terran Brandy (BoVD) (166.7 gp)
Coutl Feathers *8 = 80 gp
Favourable Sacrifice = 1000 gp
True Warrior’s Blade (Complete Champion) 650 gp
Guardinal Feather (CC) 600 gp
Horn of Gorgon (CC) 575 gp
Vial of Ambrosia (BoED) (200gp)
Potion of Swift Haste (300 gp) in tooth capsule.
Consumable Gold Spent: 3871.7 gp
Spells I am purchasing:
Magical Tattoo CL 13 (360 gp), Extended for free using a rod of metamagic: extend.
Adept Spirit *2 = 120 gp
Incantatrix Co-Operative Metamagic.
Energy Substitution: Electricity for my Ice Axe Spell: 0th level * CL 7 = 35 gp.
Maximize Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 3rd level effect * CL 7 = 210 gp.
Empower Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 2nd level effect * CL 7 = 140 gp.
Spell purchases: 865 gp
Total Consumable/Non lasting: 4736.7 gp.
Total Gold Spent: 8556.5 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, mundane things, spell components and foci, etc.
With almost half my gold spent on single use/special daily items or spells, it seems a little odd, right? But for a caster aware he is going into the depths of hell (Creatures 2 CR’s higher), SOLO, it seems reasonable to think that such absolute preparation would be necessary.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Purchase a Magic Tattoo, Extended, from a 13th level Caster, for +1 Caster Level - 360 gp
Purchase a shot of Adept Spirit (Magic of Incarnum) - 60 gp
Go hunting in the city, find a rat, cast Death Knell on it.
Level 3 Spell: Corona of Cold (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather, Fail (35%) 1
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC) - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) Succeed (70%). Use the true warriors blade. Metamagic effect on it - this axe deals 24 (maximize) +6.5 (empower) +6 (true warriors blade) +5 (Caster level/2) + 3 (Divine Favour) + optional 10.5 (Blade of Blood) 44 or 55 damage.
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers. Fail (105/150)
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Tattoo is still on since it is extended
Purchase another shot of Adept Spirit (60 gp)
Kill A Rat with Death Knell
Drink Terran Brandy
CL: 10
Level 1 Spell: Divine Favour (PHB) - Coutl Feather - 140/150%, Fail.
Level 3 Spell: Favourable Sacrifice (SpC) 1 hour/level - Use a Coutl Feather (BoED) - Success.
(175/150) Gain SR 17, Resist Energy All 17, and DR 10/magic for 12 hours. (Not persisted), Guardinal Feather
Level 3 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +4 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR. SR is now 19 - Coult Feather (210/250), Horn of Gorgon
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist) - Coutl Feather (245/250)
Level 2 Spell: Lesser Restoration to counter effect of Terran Brandy.
Spells Remaining
0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistence
1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction, Protection from Evil***
2- Augery (domain), Hand of Divinity
3- Domain: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.
I get outside the Dungeon, and buff up the last bit, using Conviction (Coutl Feather Success 280/250) and Hand of Divinity (with Ambrosia and Extend)
Durations: 240 and 24 minutes respectively.
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 21, Touch 11, FF 20
Saves: 16/11/16
BAB: 3
Attack: +10 touch, for 44 electric damage, 55 if blade of blood is used.
Fortitude Save DC 16 or 6.5 cold damage and -2 str/dex until you leave the area. (10 feet)
Ranged attack +7 (3 base, 1 dex, 3 divine favour), 1d8+3 (divine favour)
Init: +1
***For people that say “Oh, Protection From Evil, so Metagamey, this character is immune to melee damage (basically) and has spell resistance, and energy resistance. The one thing it doesn’t have is high saves, which explains preparing 3 save boosting spells at first level and second level. It also has low AC, so Protection of Evil also makes sense.
For people equally concerned about the energy substitution; I already deal cold damage. It makes sense to flesh out my elements a little. Fire and Could would be the normal choices, but this cleric, through knowledge religion, knows Demons to be immune to both, so instead picks Electricity, since he is unlikely to have Celestial enemies. Hopefully.
As for the hit-and-run tactics making it so the boneclaw couldn't do much of anything, I'd think that Hide +13, cover from the orchard, 50 ft. visibility, and 40 ft. movement with 20 ft. reach may work in the boneclaw's favor. Even if that hide wouldn't work, just ready an action to attack when he can see the PC allows that big move and reach to get an attack off. Perhaps not so effective against a huge armor classed PC, but it's something for any others to think about. If any others decide to even try it.
It is only hitting the HORSE on a 13, and it takes 3 hits to drop the horse. The best outcome of an ambush is a surprise round, two swings on won initi and one AOO on the retreat. It'll never get the hits together.
It would work well on someone who could not heal, or somebody with lower AC.
It is only hitting the HORSE on a 13, and it takes 3 hits to drop the horse. The best outcome of an ambush is a surprise round, two swings on won initi and one AOO on the retreat. It'll never get the hits together.
It would work well on someone who could not heal, or somebody with lower AC.
I know.
Surprise round, single attack.
First normal round, two attacks; then the AoO attack as the PC flees.
It may not make a difference in the end.
Just preemptive for others that actually try it with characters that have different set-ups.
snip
Yeah, that swapping out cold damage for electricity damage isn't metagamey at all. But whatever. I don't really care too much in the end.
I thought drinking a swift spell potion (or using a wand) was clarified as a standard action.
I totally don't get where you're getting 44 electricity damage per hit, nor all elemental resistances. Care to clarify?
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Too funny. Maybe it's me. Did I forget to brush my teeth or something? Too many elf bits stuck between them?
You should be level 4 character, with starting cash of level 5 (the necropolitan is basically a LA+1 template). Else, when you pay the 3000gp for the process you have really overspent.
However, most of the power you show, is based on the ogres you start with. A commoner could hire wartrolls (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) similarly to the undead starting with the ogres.
Hirelings prove nothing, if theyre allowed they should be restricted to cr = to the challenge's cr, and cost double or triple for a one day hire, as suggested by the dmg. A band of wartrolls would just get a cr5-7 boss out in the wilderness and kill and eat him (maybe not in that order). Thats a grey area, npcs essentially require a dm to adjudicate, and their reaction is based on more than a simple die roll.
Undead that can be controlled/made I think should fall into the same realm as an animal companion, mount, or familiar, so long as they're paid for and rules legal.
I thought drinking a swift spell potion (or using a wand) was clarified as a standard action.
They've changed their minds on this (Rules Compendium). Ikren provided a link to the thread where this was recently discussed.
Initiative: I have a +1 versus +3, so 40% chance of winning, with a -10% carry over = 30% carry over.
Round 1: Dread Blossom Swarm rushes in and attacks, provoking an attack of opportunity.
Quote:
In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity.
I make an attack of opportunity against touch AC 15, with a 80% chance. I’m at -50% carry over, so that brings me to 30/50, and I miss.
Per the encounter, the swarm swirls up around you, already in your space.
You don't have Combat Reflexes, so no AoO while flat-footed anyway.
It attacks with a +5 against AC 21, or a 25% chance. The pool for melee attacks from enemies is at 205/250, so that brings it to 30/50, which is a miss.
I have a +16 to fortitude saves, and have to make a DC 15 and DC 17 save 95/190, both pass.
It's a swarm, it doesn't make an attack roll. You just take damage. Though it can be resisted with DR
I attack it, 110/50 = hit, dealing 44 damage.
DC 16 fortitude save, it has +7, 60%, it passes.
Round 2: It regens (39 damage). Attacks at 55/50, dealing 2d6 damage. Oh wait, that has a 3/36 or 1 in 12 chance of dealing damage, so it doesn’t.
It has a 100% chance to deal damage if it ends its movement with you in its spaces.
Just for clarification's sake.
They've changed their minds on this (Rules Compendium). Ikren provided a link to the thread where this was recently discussed.
And that also means drawing the swift potion is no longer a move action then? Ikeren's entrant drew and drank a potion all as a swift action, 5 ft. step (which he didn't mention), then made a full attack.
solbergb
Apparently both the boneclaw's attack bonus had calculated a power attack of 2, which I didn't notice before. I'm going to go alter the stat block (increases attack to +9, decreases damage to 2d6+5). It may or may not matter for your fight, or anyone else's fight, but it should be noted.
Ikeren
Round 1: It charges, with attacks at 20/20/15, 20.5 damage each, and claws at 19/19/, with a 1/6 chance of dealing 1 damage, and a bite at +18, with a 3/8 chance of dealing damage (average 2)
It cannot do that. A charge happens when the first attack is available (the glaive), so it doesn't get the claw/claw/bite attacks, and your character is 10 ft. away. It also couldn't attempt a grapple at that range with it's improved grab, because that is supposed to be a function of the Lion's bite, which has gone away.
It should also have a large glaive, which changes the damage (2d8) and the reach (20 ft.)
Big time mistake on my part, so I apologize to all contestants. I did list it as a large glaive, just didn't get the right damage or reach.
Hirelings prove nothing, if theyre allowed they should be restricted to cr = to the challenge's cr, and cost double or triple for a one day hire, as suggested by the dmg. A band of wartrolls would just get a cr5-7 boss out in the wilderness and kill and eat him (maybe not in that order). Thats a grey area, npcs essentially require a dm to adjudicate, and their reaction is based on more than a simple die roll.
Undead that can be controlled/made I think should fall into the same realm as an animal companion, mount, or familiar, so long as they're paid for and rules legal.
Can a UMD noncaster buy/read a scroll of animate dead? etc?
EDIT: SRD would indicate no.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
You have caster level 0, so you can control 0x4 hd of undead. I almost wish a melee had tried that so I could laugh when they animate the manticore corpse and it eats them.
Can a UMD noncaster buy/read a scroll of raise dead? etc?
raise dead? not at your current wealth limits. 1 scroll would be 2/3+ of your wealth limit at level 5.
Spell:
Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.
A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.
Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.
Scroll as listed in the SRD:
57–58 raise dead 6,125 gp
Now if you meant animate dead:
Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.
Emphasis mine for important parts.
Yes they can but they would have to buy a scroll with enough material component (black onyx) to have the spell succeed on the corpse that you are trying to animate. If you have a scroll with 75 gp of black onyx and a 4HD corpse the spell would fail as the material components would be insufficient for the target. Additionally since the non-caster has no caster level and the spell specifically calls out that you can only control so many HD of undead per caster level you would not be able to control the raised undead
However, this is also another indication of how over powered casters can be - they can make their own magical items, with the skill and class -40% cost, for members of their party. So while it may be cheesy, it is just another way, by the written rules, that casters gain an edge. Note that I am not doing this for all my gear, or for unreasonable things; just one item that makes some sense.
Those can also been purchased in in magic-mart. Actually, being cheaper, they can be purchased in smaller cities. Do you want every character posted from now one using magical items that are usable only by his race and alignment? I think it is possible to get a discount of 70% combining that kind of stupidity. It actually greatly benefits classes that are more dependent of items.
I am astonishing the players that think casters are overpowered are relying into every dirty trick and optional rule imaginable to try to increase the power of the casters posted. If they are so powerful, why do they need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for this crap?
Traits, flaws, powerful regional feats, setting-specific feats, class-limited items for gp discount (wait! Aren't they item independent?), dumping Int to the score of a troll (do you find fun rping a drooling moron?). What is next?
Hirelings prove nothing, if theyre allowed they should be restricted to cr = to the challenge's cr, and cost double or triple for a one day hire, as suggested by the dmg. A band of wartrolls would just get a cr5-7 boss out in the wilderness and kill and eat him (maybe not in that order). Thats a grey area, npcs essentially require a dm to adjudicate, and their reaction is based on more than a simple die roll.
Undead that can be controlled/made I think should fall into the same realm as an animal companion, mount, or familiar, so long as they're paid for and rules legal.
Wait, hirelings (which are Core) are a 'grey area' and undead armies are not? What is the difference between control through magic and control through cash?
What about purchasing an horde of riding dogs and warhorses to win the battles for you? Is that a 'grey' area too? You don't have to pay them. What about using animal handling to train a dire tiger to do the fights for you?
encounter 1 - yeah toast. A similar encounter with half the numbers in antother gauntlet was a near thing.
Encounter 2 - no problem. Just had to burn out 46 charges in my clw wand, 4 magic stone potions and an acid flask.
Encounter 3 - no problem. Not one of the xbow bolts hit his AC, so no spells discharged. It was a very long fight - 2 more magic stone potions, 5 acid flasks and a flask of oil...stupid things had cover. Used up the other 4 charges of my clw wand.
Encounter 4 - too much for me. The minions were no problem but I couldn't kill the BBEG fast enough. Or is that Little Bad Evil Guy? Must...have...iterative...attacks....
Oh well, there is always level 7.
Yeah, that swapping out cold damage for electricity damage isn't metagamey at all. But whatever. I don't really care too much in the end.
I thought drinking a swift spell potion (or using a wand) was clarified as a standard action.
I totally don't get where you're getting 44 electricity damage per hit, nor all elemental resistances. Care to clarify?
I believe 6-8 of the monsters, of the ones that I fought, were cold immune, none of which fire immune. That seemed ridiculous, and in a build that is already doing cold damage, it makes sense to go with electricity since you are getting multiple elements. Fire would be a weaker choice since the immunity is so common, and fiends, which this cleric would be worried about, are cold/fire immune. You would be absolutely right in saying that if I picked one element type and only used that element type, I wouldn't be able to do this. However, picking one element type would be sub-optimal. I mean, honestly, how many casters get energy sub - fire so they can cast all their spells as fire-spells? It'd be the height of stupidity.
Wands are a swift action if the spell they use is.
Potions can be used as a swift action if you put them in capsule retainers. You can find these items in complete adventurer, page 120.
And that also means drawing the swift potion is no longer a move action then? Ikeren's entrant drew and drank a potion all as a swift action, 5 ft. step (which he didn't mention), then made a full attack.
1 Capsule Retainer from Complete Adventurer, page 120 (100 gp)
I even noted that in my build previously.
All the elemental resistances are from a 1000gp favourable sacrifice. That's worth 15 to all, for 1 hour/level (CL is 12, so 12 hours). (It also nets me DR 10/magic and SR 5+CL). The +2 to all energy resists is from the Guardinal Feather from Complete Champion.
44 electricty damage breaks down like this:
Ice Axe: 2d12+1/2 CL, max 10. My caster level for this spell is +10, so that's 2d12+5. I then get the spell maximized and empowered by an incantatrix (as well as energy subbed electricity), so it deals 24+1d12+5 (or 24+6.5+5). From there, the True Warriors Blade from Complete Champion adds another 2 per spell level (6), and another +3 from Divine Favour. Blade of Blood wand is held in my shield, and as a swift action, adds 10.5 more damage and deals 5 to me.
Total: 24+6.5+5+6+3 = 44.5 damage. 55 if blade of blood.
Per the encounter, the swarm swirls up around you, already in your space.
You don't have Combat Reflexes, so no AoO while flat-footed anyway.
Doesn't make a difference, I still kill it.
It's a swarm, it doesn't make an attack roll. You just take damage. Though it can be resisted with DR
Ooops, my bad. Uhm, yeah. 2d6 versus DR 10/magic? Has to roll a 65, 56, or 66 combination to deal damage, at an average of 1 and 1/3rd. That's the 3/36 or 1/12 chance to deal damage.
It has a 100% chance to deal damage if it ends its movement with you in its spaces.
I don't quite get how you mean that? Does it overcome DR? Or are you referring to the Con drain? I'd have to be paralysed first, and I can make the save for a long enough time with my +16 Constitution save.
SA: Blood Drain (In addition to swarm damage, this deals 1d6 Con damage to any paralyzed or otherwise immobilized creature in its space)
It cannot do that. A charge happens when the first attack is available (the glaive), so it doesn't get the claw/claw/bite attacks, and your character is 10 ft. away. It also couldn't attempt a grapple at that range with it's improved grab, because that is supposed to be a function of the Lion's bite, which has gone away.
It should also have a large glaive, which changes the damage (2d8) and the reach (20 ft.)
Big time mistake on my part, so I apologize to all contestants. I did list it as a large glaive, just didn't get the right damage or reach.
Damn. Alright, I have no idea how I can beat that specific monster then. It deals damage too fast - my only option was to kill it in one round. Uh, anyone have any ideas as to how I can gain full attack on a charge? What about putting a potion of enlarge person in an armor chamber...damn, would involve using two swift actions, and I'm not a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
Argaud
Those can also been purchased in in magic-mart. Actually, being cheaper, they can be purchased in smaller cities. Do you want every character posted from now one using magical items that are usable only by his race and alignment? I think it is possible to get a discount of 70% combining that kind of stupidity. It actually greatly benefits classes that are more dependent of items.
What's a magic mart? I mean, despite the rules as written, neither one is likely to stand in a game. I am just saying it is easier for a player to acquire items keyed to their class if they are the ones making it. Is that not a reasonable statement?
I am astonishing the players that think casters are overpowered are relying into every dirty trick and optional rule imaginable to try to increase the power of the casters posted. If they are so powerful, why do they need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for this crap?
Like I said way earlier, this build can be done successfully and handle CR 5 encounters, solo, using merely core, completes, and the spell compendium.
Let's see, what crazy things are I using:
Components from Complete Champion? Complete's don't count as obscure
Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness components? Definitely bottom of the barrel.
Unearthed Arcana? Rather hypocritical for a feat rogue, wouldn't you say?
Spell Compendium?
Sheesh, you're acting like I pulled out some dragon magazine or some 3rd party "Legends and Lairs" material.
Traits, flaws, powerful regional feats, setting-specific feats, class-limited items for gp discount (wait! Aren't they item independent?), dumping Int to the score of a troll (do you find fun rping a drooling moron?). What is next?
I did the gp discount afterwards when I realized I was over by a fraction. Rather than re-run 5 different encounters with slightly modified numbers, I did that. You got a complaint: When I see your PaO rogue run the same 6 encounters I have (hey, you're 1/6th the way there), I'll re-run all my numbers.
Traits: Not obscure, within one of the few books available to anyone online.
Flaws: Same as above.
Regional Feats: WotC published campaign settings for a reason.
Setting Specific feats: Same as above. This is being done in a generic universal setting, so that material is usable. Why? Do you disallow it as a DM? What's wrong with the material in the Campaign setting books? Is there really? Or are you just looking for a few straw men to build?
GP Discount: Oh yeah, that's bottom of the barrel for sure: DMG 1.
Hey Argaud, if you've got such a problem with the rulebooks that WotC publishes, maybe you shouldn't play their game? Coming on me and heckling me for using the rules they wrote to the advantage of casters seems kind of silly, especially because the OP has set this to be a "No Holds Barred" place where everything is in use to demonstrate caster superiority. I'm just doing as Meyer's wanted.
As for the GP discount, I admitted that, while being in the rules, it isn't necessarily fair. However, to save myself 5-6 hours of tedium, I did so. Let's see, I'm what 500 gp over? That's the price of selling less than a single days worth of spells, so I could do that fairly easily. Guess what, give your build 500 more gp. Then run the CR 6 and 7 encounters. Think that'll make a huge difference for you? It wasn't a this build can't do it without 500 gp more. it was a "if I take out any item, I have to rerun all the numbers, which would waste 5 hours of my time." Don't like it? Well, rules as written, I can sell my spell casting services - another way that casters perhaps have an edge. What's a hired warrior paid? Like, 5 gp per day?
As for intelligence 6 and roleplaying: I don't need to. This is a pure numbers game. You want roleplaying? Go over to Character Development. Furthermore, this character solves everything by bashing it until it's dead (including the locked doors in the kobold cave). Intelligence 6 is high :P .
So Argaud, you've got 5 more encounters to go. Although I am not really sure how your build, based around purchasing the services that I or another caster can sell, really diminishes the thought that casters have something really awesome going for them in spells. I won't disagree that UMD is really awesome too (indeed, any of my skilled casters take it), it just, by comparison, isn't as awesome.
Or you know what, Argaud? So concerned by my use of gp reducers: Take out the Horn of Gorgon (it'll reduce my strength by 2, and all resultant factors). Then re-run all the numbers yourself and see if you can figure out why I don't intend to :P
Wait, hirelings (which are Core) are a 'grey area' and undead armies are not? What is the difference between control through magic and control through cash?
What about purchasing an horde of riding dogs and warhorses to win the battles for you? Is that a 'grey' area too? You don't have to pay them. What about using animal handling to train a dire tiger to do the fights for you?
If you can hire them and have the gold to pay their wages then that seems to make sense. Keep in mind that a horde of riding dogs are going to need a bunch of food everyday so it probably boils down to something similar to paying wages for hirelings. You also need skilled people that can deal with/handle a horde of animals...
Of course, control by magic is more trustworthy than 'hired'. Hired people can get afraid and simply say forget it...too risky and don't want to die. Heck they can even backstab you. They do value their lives as being more than fodder. Also note that 'Charmed' creatures are not puppets. They are simply friendly and may not agree with what you want to do...or even want to do it. Dominate and control are different, fall more in the puppet categories. Puppets can be turned on the controler too, especially when talking about undead.
Now animal companions, paladin mounts, and familiars are different...they are 'bound' to the character but can still be turned against the character and can even be liabilities.
Tactics:
Gurth and his two undead would have Rings of the Darkhidden and go at night and stay in the dark. Invisible to Darkvision.
Gurth would use Summon Undead I and send them into areas to identify traps.
Shockers - once identified, Gurth would cast scare a couple of times to break them up and have his undead kill them.
Constantly use Summoned Undead (I-III) as distraction for the fact that him and his 'real' undead are effectively invisible.
Scariest part is the fireballs giving him away when they are launched on a summoned undead ogre (summoned undead III). Would cast a swarm on them when they are exposed (have to look how effective a swarm really is).
During all this he would have an extended spectral hand running. Would 'Tag' the boss with Vampiric Touch. Probably want to do it earlier too to soup up on temp hit points a little.
Spells look like they will make it. I can post tomorrow. It is kind of fun for Gurth to go through that one.
What's a magic mart? I mean, despite the rules as written, neither one is likely to stand in a game. I am just saying it is easier for a player to acquire items keyed to their class if they are the ones making it. Is that not a reasonable statement?
Magic-mart is a way of writing that rule in the DMG that allows you to purchase any magical item for some gold by going to the right-size city and just paying. The cheaper the item, the smaller the city can be. If we start purchasing items that only work for determined alignment/classes we can start purchasing all items at something like 30% of their DMG cost. Which I am told benefits non-casters much more than caster, because "casters do not need magical items".
Most of my comments were not directed specifically to you, but...
I will post eventually (work just got crazy) a non-caster PAO multi-class character with flaws, traits, age, items restricted just to himself and all other crap I have seen posted in caster character so far, except maybe a fleshraker, because it would be useless until around level 7.
It will also be perfectly RAW, and beat all the gauntlets easily.
Do I get spell resistance against cones of cold? I’ll assume not.
You assume correctly, it is a supernatural ability.
Side note: I really like your encounters, but could you work to source feats and give enemy tactics a little more? I just noticed the feat: Artistic Mage, which I think means that 50% of his actions are used to paint funny pictures on the wall using cold of cone as an attempt to distract me. Thanks :D
Huh... Sorry about that. I'll go back and correct the spelling and cite the source of the feats and alt. class features.
As for tactics they are highly situational.
[edit]By the way, Shadow starts out in the sarcophagus. You have to open it to fight him.[/edit]
I will post eventually (work just got crazy) a non-caster PAO multi-class character with flaws, traits, age, items restricted just to himself and all other crap I have seen posted in caster character so far, except maybe a fleshraker, because it would be useless until around level 7.
Again, I only did it for 500 gold, and I only did it to avoid tedious number rerunning - the end result would be a -1 attack, and no other difference. Flaws, traits, age, are all good, although I am still sceptical about the use of PaO - does that really prove anything? Couldn't you do it using pure melee might :D ?
Can a UMD noncaster buy/read a scroll of raise dead? etc?
Are you objecting to a caster using a phb spell? Please clarify, can evil clerics and arcane casters not use phb animate dead? If its allowed, whats the point of denigrating it?
Those can also been purchased in in magic-mart. Actually, being cheaper, they can be purchased in smaller cities. Do you want every character posted from now one using magical items that are usable only by his race and alignment? I think it is possible to get a discount of 70% combining that kind of stupidity. It actually greatly benefits classes that are more dependent of items.
I am astonishing the players that think casters are overpowered are relying into every dirty trick and optional rule imaginable to try to increase the power of the casters posted. If they are so powerful, why do they need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for this crap?
Traits, flaws, powerful regional feats, setting-specific feats, class-limited items for gp discount (wait! Aren't they item independent?), dumping Int to the score of a troll (do you find fun rping a drooling moron?). What is next?
Meyer's mental stats, 6,8,10
Ikerens mental stats, 6,10,16
Biased? I think so.
You're in a thread on the char op board complaining about optimization? In a thread where the op used traits, flaws, class variant, tob, skill tricks, and auras?
The reason casters are "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is because meyers chose an arbitrary level range where casters haven't gained their full versatility (few spells per day/few spells known) yet, then chose an arbitrary scenario (solo) which obviously doesnt play to low level caster's strengths, then set the stage for funky builds with his own in the starring role.
Magic-mart is a way of writing that rule in the DMG that allows you to purchase any magical item for some gold by going to the right-size city and just paying. The cheaper the item, the smaller the city can be. If we start purchasing items that only work for determined alignment/classes we can start purchasing all items at something like 30% of their DMG cost. Which I am told benefits non-casters much more than caster, because "casters do not need magical items".
Most of my comments were not directed specifically to you, but...
I will post eventually (work just got crazy) a non-caster PAO multi-class character with flaws, traits, age, items restricted just to himself and all other crap I have seen posted in caster character so far, except maybe a fleshraker, because it would be useless until around level 7.
It will also be perfectly RAW, and beat all the gauntlets easily.
Go for it. Noone will respect it as proof, since you cant do it without a caster's help.
Wait, hirelings (which are Core) are a 'grey area' and undead armies are not? What is the difference between control through magic and control through cash?
What about purchasing an horde of riding dogs and warhorses to win the battles for you? Is that a 'grey' area too? You don't have to pay them. What about using animal handling to train a dire tiger to do the fights for you?
2 ogres are an army? If you're objecting to casters using phb spells, again, you're conceding the point, just like you did with your pao rogue.
Hirelings not run by a dm in a reasonable manner prove nothing, wartrolls are cr12 and evil, their description clearly states that the mercenaries are difficult to control. What does this mean? That a dm needs to judge their reactions.
Otherwise, I render the thread moot by making a vanilla character of each class, who rides to victory on the back of his loyal ancient red dragon hireling, who then gives him all the treasure and kisses each of his toes after the adventure, and begs to be allowed to serve him again.
As for animal herding, play how you want, Im sure you can come up with a powerful tamer build. Doesn't speak much to the goal of the thread tho. Ill be interested to see how you get by the wraith w/o metagaming.
Caster
Win: 5 (Otherwordly Alterself Pearl of Power), (DMM Cleric), (Otherworldly Alterself warmage), (Abjurer, Exploding Runes), (Druid with Fleshraker), (Otherworldly Alterself wizard)
Almost Win: 1, (cloistered cleric)
Lose: 7 (Dread Necromancer), (Sorcerer), (Enchanter), (Warlock), (Druid), (Summoner Druid Man), (Spook the Summoner)
Currently Ineligible/Issues: 5 (Druid with fleshraker - metal armor, etc) (Master of Shrouds - not finished), (Illusionist - tactics not work as described), (Evoker - tactics not work as described, dragon magazine), (Conjurer)
NonCaster (Bela builds are treated as one)
Win: 2, (PAO) (Bela on Drugs)
Almost Win: 1 (Multiclass)
Lose: 1 (Generic Fighter)
Currently Ineligible: 3 (Merchant of Moscow - awaiting decision on Psychic Warrior level), (Jinkas Level 6), (Me too: cheap pricing)
Win:
Caster 5/19
Noncaster 2/7
Almost Win
Caster 2/19
Noncaster 1/7
Lose
Caster 7/19
Noncaster 1/7
Ineligible/Being Fixed
Caster 5/19
Noncaster 3/7.
So this boils down to a cleric, warmage, wizard, specialist wizard, and druid winning, with the only "melee" wins being a pao/umd rogue and a heavy expendables character who is listed as not examined (since rebuild?) Kinda hard to parse. Is the challenge pretty much over now?
I believe 6-8 of the monsters, of the ones that I fought, were cold immune, none of which fire immune. That seemed ridiculous, and in a build that is already doing cold damage, it makes sense to go with electricity since you are getting multiple elements. Fire would be a weaker choice since the immunity is so common, and fiends, which this cleric would be worried about, are cold/fire immune. You would be absolutely right in saying that if I picked one element type and only used that element type, I wouldn't be able to do this. However, picking one element type would be sub-optimal. I mean, honestly, how many casters get energy sub - fire so they can cast all their spells as fire-spells? It'd be the height of stupidity.
Ok. So it was metagaming; knowing the monsters and changing the build to suit. But like I said, I don't really care.
Wands are a swift action if the spell they use is.
Potions can be used as a swift action if you put them in capsule retainers. You can find these items in complete adventurer, page 120.
I even noted that in my build previously.
Yes, as PhaedrusXY noted, this was a 'they changed their minds' moment. I didn't buy rules compendium, as it came out after the 4ed announcement.
All the elemental resistances are from a 1000gp favourable sacrifice. That's worth 15 to all, for 1 hour/level (CL is 12, so 12 hours). (It also nets me DR 10/magic and SR 5+CL). The +2 to all energy resists is from the Guardinal Feather from Complete Champion.
K.
44 electricty damage breaks down like this:
Ice Axe: 2d12+1/2 CL, max 10. My caster level for this spell is +10, so that's 2d12+5. I then get the spell maximized and empowered by an incantatrix (as well as energy subbed electricity), so it deals 24+1d12+5 (or 24+6.5+5). From there, the True Warriors Blade from Complete Champion adds another 2 per spell level (6), and another +3 from Divine Favour. Blade of Blood wand is held in my shield, and as a swift action, adds 10.5 more damage and deals 5 to me.
Total: 24+6.5+5+6+3 = 44.5 damage. 55 if blade of blood.
I realized after posting where it came from. Good to see an explanation (which maybe should have been with the latest version (#371... ;) ) of the build
Doesn't make a difference, I still kill it.
See, now that looks like an excuse to just use "I kill it, but I don't bother following the rules or using the numbers" to readers. Just use the correct rules and don't be dismissive of people pointing out the correct way. Do you really want later builds to do the same thing? Didn't think so.
Ooops, my bad. Uhm, yeah. 2d6 versus DR 10/magic? Has to roll a 65, 56, or 66 combination to deal damage, at an average of 1 and 1/3rd. That's the 3/36 or 1/12 chance to deal damage.
I don't quite get how you mean that? Does it overcome DR? Or are you referring to the Con drain? I'd have to be paralysed first, and I can make the save for a long enough time with my +16 Constitution save.
I mean that as a 'this is the correct rule so nobody else gets the wrong impression, and you're using the monster correctly'. In the end, it didn't matter, but that's a **** poor excuse not to do it correctly.
Damn. Alright, I have no idea how I can beat that specific monster then. It deals damage too fast - my only option was to kill it in one round. Uh, anyone have any ideas as to how I can gain full attack on a charge? What about putting a potion of enlarge person in an armor chamber...damn, would involve using two swift actions, and I'm not a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
You don't have to beat it. Everyone has already seen that your DMM cleric is powerful.
And don't take my post as criticism that you have to get defensive about. Some of it is correcting mistakes that don't matter at the end of the fights anyway. Some of it is curiosity.
The biggest thing you should think about is how people react to 'oh, another challenge, time to rebuild the guy again' that's been going on. Or not, depending upon how you feel about it.
Again, I only did it for 500 gold, and I only did it to avoid tedious number rerunning - the end result would be a -1 attack, and no other difference. Flaws, traits, age, are all good, although I am still sceptical about the use of PaO - does that really prove anything? Couldn't you do it using pure melee might :D ?
I don't know, did the use of flaws, traits, ect prove anything?
Could you do it just with pure spellcasting might and no melee at all?
PAO is magic within reach of anyone, it is not spellcasting since the character won't even cast the spell through UMD (although he could - but it is cheaper just pay an NPC to cast a sanctum-ed PAO). And UMD does not make a character a spellcaster, anyway, just a magic-using character, which is 100% of all characters in D&D except maybe VoP ones.
The reason casters are "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is because meyers chose an arbitrary level range where casters haven't gained their full versatility (few spells per day/few spells known) yet, then chose an arbitrary scenario (solo) which obviously doesnt play to low level caster's strengths, then set the stage for funky builds with his own in the starring role.
The reason he picked level 5 was because the earlier posters claimed that casters were vastly superior to non-casters even at level 1. So far the statement has proven to be false, since massive cheeze is availeble to both casters and non-caster, and so far the only character that has been shown (in my eyes) as trully overpowered is the DMM cleric.
(Although I expect to see more examples at higher level)
Good point about the intelligence of Meyer's orc. Although being an orc I expect him to be a moron, int 6 is definitely trully stupid. I don't think an int 6 character is able to find out smart combos of spells or items, much less smart tactics.
I think Meyer has planned to check out higher level characters too, but the arguing about level 5 is going on and on and on.
Go for it. Noone will respect it as proof, since you cant do it without a caster's help.
However you respect the "proof" of characters that purchase other items and consumables they cannot create by themselves? Hypocrite much?
Unless a character can craft all the weapons and gear they use from scratch, including mining/foraging/hunting for the metals they use as raw materials, plus develop all the spells from nothing, plus being 100% self-suficient in all aspects of being from level 1, then "they cannot do what they do without the help of NPCs." Please, extend your contemp to them too.
Hirelings prove nothing, if theyre allowed they should be restricted to cr = to the challenge's cr, and cost double or triple for a one day hire, as suggested by the dmg. A band of wartrolls would just get a cr5-7 boss out in the wilderness and kill and eat him (maybe not in that order). Thats a grey area, npcs essentially require a dm to adjudicate, and their reaction is based on more than a simple die roll.
Undead that can be controlled/made I think should fall into the same realm as an animal companion, mount, or familiar, so long as they're paid for and rules legal.
Undead minions can be made during the adventure. My objection is to starting out with minions.
Those can also been purchased in in magic-mart. Actually, being cheaper, they can be purchased in smaller cities. Do you want every character posted from now one using magical items that are usable only by his race and alignment? I think it is possible to get a discount of 70% combining that kind of stupidity. It actually greatly benefits classes that are more dependent of items.
DMG (or was it MiC, whichever) says that discounts like this should be used rarely if ever because of player abuse. Please, no one use it (I will be posting this on the first page).
Ikeren:
My opinion is that (per your latest posting) 56 gp is not worth talking about (ignore it). However, if you feel the need to balance, an even easier method would be to post that you "rented" the rod of extend from the cleric place you were talking about for the price of the reduced cost extend.
I am astonishing the players that think casters are overpowered are relying into every dirty trick and optional rule imaginable to try to increase the power of the casters posted. If they are so powerful, why do they need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for this crap?
Believe it or not, I relish the casters using these tricks. The intent was for the Char Opt to show examples of overpowered casters. The DMM cleric is definitely one of them. (i.e. success)
Traits, flaws, powerful regional feats, setting-specific feats, class-limited items for gp discount (wait! Aren't they item independent?), dumping Int to the score of a troll (do you find fun rping a drooling moron?). What is next?
Flaws are something that are used on the CharOpt board constantly, it is almost a given.
The rest of the stuff (with the exception of the gp discount issue which was to fix a 56 gp issue) is not bad at all.
I believe 6-8 of the monsters, of the ones that I fought, were cold immune, none of which fire immune. That seemed ridiculous, and in a build that is already doing cold damage, it makes sense to go with electricity since you are getting multiple elements. Fire would be a weaker choice since the immunity is so common, and fiends, which this cleric would be worried about, are cold/fire immune. You would be absolutely right in saying that if I picked one element type and only used that element type, I wouldn't be able to do this. However, picking one element type would be sub-optimal. I mean, honestly, how many casters get energy sub - fire so they can cast all their spells as fire-spells? It'd be the height of stupidity.
The concern is that if you changed from cold to electricity, based on the fight you did not yet fight, then it would be metagaming. If you did it for a different reason (role-playing, concern about fiends) then that is just as valid as casters who pre-cast protection from arrows to defend against possible ambushes. It is a normal valid tactic for your character.
44 electricty damage breaks down like this:
Ice Axe: 2d12+1/2 CL, max 10. My caster level for this spell is +10, so that's 2d12+5. I then get the spell maximized and empowered by an incantatrix (as well as energy subbed electricity), so it deals 24+1d12+5 (or 24+6.5+5). From there, the True Warriors Blade from Complete Champion adds another 2 per spell level (6), and another +3 from Divine Favour. Blade of Blood wand is held in my shield, and as a swift action, adds 10.5 more damage and deals 5 to me.
Total: 24+6.5+5+6+3 = 44.5 damage. 55 if blade of blood.
How does the incantrix help? I mean, I understand that they are assisting in the casting of the spell ... but ... how do they assist? Wouldn't this be a cooperative spellcasting thing (feat). I know that characters can cooperate to make magic items, i just wasn't aware that spellcasting worked this way as well. Or is it an incantrix thing? (sorry for my lack of knowledge on this).
Damn. Alright, I have no idea how I can beat that specific monster then. It deals damage too fast - my only option was to kill it in one round. Uh, anyone have any ideas as to how I can gain full attack on a charge? What about putting a potion of enlarge person in an armor chamber...damn, would involve using two swift actions, and I'm not a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
Changing the build to beat an encounter is metagaming. I assume that you are talking about enhancing your character's options instead of changing it to beat a specific encounter.
What's a magic mart? I mean, despite the rules as written, neither one is likely to stand in a game. I am just saying it is easier for a player to acquire items keyed to their class if they are the ones making it. Is that not a reasonable statement?
Nope. Your character cannot craft items so you are buying it from whomever is available to craft it. Which is just as likely to be a non-cleric as it is to be a cleric.
Magic marts exist in every game I have played in, however, some games are more strict than others in the max gp value, amount of stuff you can unload in a city, as well as highest level character (caster) in the cities.
In 3.0, I had to sent away to a different city for dull grey ioun stones (useful for continual flame) as well as quest to find a caster high enough level to awaken (add intelligence) my magic sword.
Hey Argaud, if you've got such a problem with the rulebooks that WotC publishes, maybe you shouldn't play their game? Coming on me and heckling me for using the rules they wrote to the advantage of casters seems kind of silly, especially because the OP has set this to be a "No Holds Barred" place where everything is in use to demonstrate caster superiority. I'm just doing as Meyer's wanted.
Agreed, although I find it horribly cheesy to use both BoED and BoVD in the same character, it is legal. (no complaints from me on this).
Well, rules as written, I can sell my spell casting services - another way that casters perhaps have an edge.
Lets not go there. It opens the floodgates to "I sit and craft items for 100+ years (elf), and make tons of gold before I start the mini-adventures".
So Argaud, you've got 5 more encounters to go. Although I am not really sure how your build, based around purchasing the services that I or another caster can sell, really diminishes the thought that casters have something really awesome going for them in spells. I won't disagree that UMD is really awesome too (indeed, any of my skilled casters take it), it just, by comparison, isn't as awesome.
Ikeren,
The issue is that per PhB, spellcasting is a commodity, just like hirelings, or a sword.
Both the PAO rogue and your character rely upon spellcasting from others for the win. In neither case is it showcasing the strength of your class by itself, but rather, what it can do with assistance from an outside source. Which, per rules is legal.
I will post eventually (work just got crazy) a non-caster PAO multi-class character with flaws, traits, age, items restricted just to himself and all other crap I have seen posted in caster character so far, except maybe a fleshraker, because it would be useless until around level 7.
It will also be perfectly RAW, and beat all the gauntlets easily.
Please do not use item restriction as they are now not legal.
I don't know, did the use of flaws, traits, ect prove anything?
Could you do it just with pure spellcasting might and no melee at all?
PAO is magic within reach of anyone, it is not spellcasting since the character won't even cast the spell through UMD (although he could - but it is cheaper just pay an NPC to cast a sanctum-ed PAO). And UMD does not make a character a spellcaster, anyway, just a magic-using character, which is 100% of all characters in D&D except maybe VoP ones.
The reason he picked level 5 was because the earlier posters claimed that casters were vastly superior to non-casters even at level 1. So far the statement has proven to be false, since massive cheeze is availeble to both casters and non-caster, and so far the only character that has been shown (in my eyes) as trully overpowered is the DMM cleric.
(Although I expect to see more examples at higher level)
Good point about the intelligence of Meyer's orc. Although being an orc I expect him to be a moron, int 6 is definitely trully stupid. I don't think an int 6 character is able to find out smart combos of spells or items, much less smart tactics.
I think Meyer has planned to check out higher level characters too, but the arguing about level 5 is going on and on and on.
However you respect the "proof" of characters that purchase other items and consumables they cannot create by themselves? Hypocrite much?
Unless a character can craft all the weapons and gear they use from scratch, including mining/foraging/hunting for the metals they use as raw materials, plus develop all the spells from nothing, plus being 100% self-suficient in all aspects of being from level 1, then "they cannot do what they do without the help of NPCs." Please, extend your contemp to them too.
It was his cha that was 6 I think, not his int, still a mental stat to be roleplayed. If thats required in a highly theoretical experiment in character optimization.
As for the rest, your goal making a rogue was to discredit the idea that casters are overpowered right? Yet youre emulating one, and seeking out a much stronger than yourself caster and willingly failing a saving throw from a spell he cast, in order to prove that he's not overpowered? THEN you complain about not enough roleplaying in a char op thread? THEN you insist that cr12 hirelings are appropriate at cr5?
You can turn the hypocrisy thing back on me if it makes you feel better, I won't get worked up about it. Its still pretty telling that you harped on a caster repeatedly, yet passed over the melee without questioning the same issue. Pot,kettle, black stuff doesn't really wash your hands clean :P I think that youre right to a certain extext, as a general rule you can buy anything the rules will allow in character optimization, but buying a level 8 buff and multiple wands is an absurd way to argue against caster strength, similar to saying that bab is worthless due to transformation or divine power.
The central issue is that were in agreement on at least one point, so far only a caster has stood out as truly overpowered, so why progress on to level 10,15,20 and keep looking for more examples of caster power? We know its there at high levels, we know tob helped fix melees quite a bit, we know polymorph is broken, we know umd is a great skill, we know that many spells are brokenly overpowered, so whats left to prove or disprove?
Have the rules changed, and now meyer just wants more level 5-20 builds of all caster types who can solo equal cr challenges?
Or is the debate now so convoluted that its gotten to this:
Casters aren't overpowered because they can buff anyone with their spells, and umd characters prove that casters can never outdo melees by virtue of having every spell in the game available to them.
Seems we're either leaving the OP's goal behind, or it's already been satisfied.
Are you objecting to a caster using a phb spell? Please clarify, can evil clerics and arcane casters not use phb animate dead? If its allowed, whats the point of denigrating it?
The issue is starting with undead minions. Druid starts with an animal companion as it is a class ability. Undead minions are not a class ability of the class he posted. Which is why he cannot start with any. This objection was posted prior to him posting any fights and part of my objection was quoted and acted upon.
Someone pointed out that animate dead'ing from a scroll might not work. Then hiring someone to do it, then reading a scroll of "Control Undead" works identically (possibly cheaper)
Meyer's mental stats, 6,8,10
Ikerens mental stats, 6,10,16
Biased? I think so.
PLEASE!!! I think I am a bit smarter than that.
My character though ... is not terribly smart though.
You're in a thread on the char op board complaining about optimization? In a thread where the op used traits, flaws, class variant, tob, skill tricks, and auras?
The reason casters are "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is because meyers chose an arbitrary level range where casters haven't gained their full versatility (few spells per day/few spells known) yet, then chose an arbitrary scenario (solo) which obviously doesnt play to low level caster's strengths, then set the stage for funky builds with his own in the starring role.
My build is the starring role
I am so happy.I just tossed it out there as a benchmark. Imagine if I used expendibles to increase my short-term effectiveness?
(instead of paying 2000 gp for a +1 spiked chain, I pay for oil of greater magic weapon, etc)
But that wouldn't work for that orginal build.
Undead minions can be made during the adventure. My objection is to starting out with minions.
Up to you, just seems rather arbitrary, would it be better if the animator showed that he could easily kill a pair of common ogres?
I dont see how hunting down a level 15 caster willing to cast a certain spell is easier than killing and reanimating acouple corpses. Or hunting down 10+ specific magic itemsto purchase. Seems both of those would be harder to accomplish than getting one spell, 400 gp in gems, and a pair of ogre corpses.
As for the rest, your goal making a rogue was to discredit the idea that casters are overpowered right? Yet youre emulating one, and seeking out a much stronger than yourself caster and willingly failing a saving throw from a spell he cast, in order to prove that he's not overpowered? THEN you complain about not enough roleplaying in a char op thread? THEN you insist that cr12 hirelings are appropriate at cr5?
You misunderstand me. (I am hurt!)
My goal is showing that non-casters can be as broken as casters, and most often by using exactly the same tricks. Which are not the monopoly of casters by a long shot. Some posters in the boards keep insisting magic is the monopoly of casters, a stance I find ridiculous.
I am convinced this is true at level 5. I am not so sure about higher level characters, though.
You can turn the hypocrisy thing back on me if it makes you feel better, I won't get worked up about it. Its still pretty telling that you harped on a caster repeatedly, yet passed over the melee without questioning the same issue. Pot,kettle, black stuff doesn't really wash your hands clean :P I think that youre right to a certain extext, as a general rule you can buy anything the rules will allow in character optimization, but buying a level 8 buff and multiple wands is an absurd way to argue against caster strength, similar to saying that bab is worthless due to transformation or divine power.
Honestly, I have pretty much ignored the postings with non-casters, merely skimming over them and pointing out only big mistakes. Non-casters are not the issue in this thread and I am posting broken builds just because I have been asked to by a few other posters.
The central issue is that were in agreement on at least one point, so far only a caster has stood out as truly overpowered, so why progress on to level 10,15,20 and keep looking for more examples of caster power? We know its there at high levels, we know tob helped fix melees quite a bit, we know polymorph is broken, we know umd is a great skill, we know that many spells are brokenly overpowered, so whats left to prove or disprove?
I think the only problem is that some people (I don't mean you) think casters are automatically overpowered (e.i. druid 1-20. I win) and that non-casters are always weak and cannot compete.
Mind you, I have no doubt casters can be broken. But I have little doubt non-casters can be broken easily too. And I am not sure which is more broken, or even if "more broken" makes any sense once your PC can single-handly crush 5 CR=level+2 encounters in a row with less than 500 gold in consumables.
-AS-
Good point about the intelligence of Meyer's orc. Although being an orc I expect him to be a moron, int 6 is definitely trully stupid. I don't think an int 6 character is able to find out smart combos of spells or items, much less smart tactics.
If you look at my character, I use very similar tactics for things. I also don't have tons of items that interact. Now, me as a player, I get to decide things for the character like skills/classes/etc ...
PLEASE!!! I think I am a bit smarter than that.
My character though ... is not terribly smart though.
My build is the starring role
I just tossed it out there as a benchmark. Imagine if I used expendibles to increase my short-term effectiveness?
(instead of paying 2000 gp for a +1 spiked chain, I pay for oil of greater magic weapon, etc)
But that wouldn't work for that orginal build.
lol ya, referring strictly to your character when laying out stats there
Curios, you have bela listed as win but up above it says it's been rebuilt, does that mean bela won cr5 and is brushing up for cr7?
I am still surprised that no casters have simply copied the gear from Meyer's build and whipped the gauntlet with that equipment(specifically the Desert Wind Cloak). Its also amusing that nothing has been proven about casters, noncasters, or anything else.
-AS-
Yeah, if this was surged forward several levels (12+?) then things start to diverge, though not by as much as some might think with ToB, Warhulk, and a number of good magic items at a melee build's disposal.
Yeah, if this was surged forward several levels (12+?) then things start to diverge, though not by as much as some might think with ToB, Warhulk, and a number of good magic items at a melee build's disposal.
I don't think warhulk (I think you actually mean hulking hurler, for the brokeness of tossing mountains for millions of damage) can be done without using LA+ races. According to Meyer rules we can't use LA+ races.
Maybe I should cry "anti-noncaster bias" now.
I don't think warhulk (I think you actually mean hulking hurler, for the brokeness of tossing mountains for millions of damage) can be done without using LA+ races. According to Meyer rules we can't use LA+ races.
Maybe I should cry "anti-noncaster bias" now.
Considering the caster need to keep caster levels, vs melee need for size and reach, that will be a problem. Maybe one for the melee nerfs column on the original post, at long last :P
It was his cha that was 6 I think, not his int, still a mental stat to be roleplayed. If thats required in a highly theoretical experiment in character optimization.
I once had a character with a char of 3 (4d6 drop the lowest). I spent the entire campaign speaking in broken english of 1-2 syllables only. Until I met someone of my race, then I spoke normally. One of my favorite moments was when the DM started having the NPCs talk to me in broken english as well.
As for the rest, your goal making a rogue was to discredit the idea that casters are overpowered right? Yet youre emulating one, and seeking out a much stronger than yourself caster and willingly failing a saving throw from a spell he cast, in order to prove that he's not overpowered? THEN you complain about not enough roleplaying in a char op thread? THEN you insist that cr12 hirelings are appropriate at cr5?
His attempt is to show the overpoweredness of certain spells, not of the casters who cast them. His concern over the low int but really really intricate tactics (1+ days buffing) is a role-playing issue, not an optimization issue.
The central issue is that were in agreement on at least one point, so far only a caster has stood out as truly overpowered, so why progress on to level 10,15,20 and keep looking for more examples of caster power? We know its there at high levels, we know tob helped fix melees quite a bit, we know polymorph is broken, we know umd is a great skill, we know that many spells are brokenly overpowered, so whats left to prove or disprove?
The reason to progress to higher levels is to see where the breakout point is ... One of my central thoughts (which might or might not be true) has been that at low levels, casters < noncasters powerwise and that casters > noncasters at high levels. I would like to see where the scales flip, so that noncasters become less than casters.
Or is the debate now so convoluted that its gotten to this:
Casters aren't overpowered because they can buff anyone with their spells, and umd characters prove that casters can never outdo melees by virtue of having every spell in the game available to them.
Seems we're either leaving the OP's goal behind, or it's already been satisfied.
The debate should be in the sister thread ... not this one. But to recap, if a noncaster can simulate the overpoweredness of a caster with a minor expenditure of cash, then the spells are overpowered, not the caster. If a noncaster does not need to simulate a caster's role (i.e. no PAO) and performs similarly, then the caster is not overpowered.
lol ya, referring strictly to your character when laying out stats there
Curios, you have bela listed as win but up above it says it's been rebuilt, does that mean bela won cr5 and is brushing up for cr7?
Bela is now final bela and new tactics have been posted. I think they are good as he has done it more than once already, but I don't think that anyone has really examined them yet. Which is why there is the discrepancy.
This is just like how I moved my character from Win to Almost Win.
If you look at my character, I use very similar tactics for things. I also don't have tons of items that interact. Now, me as a player, I get to decide things for the character like skills/classes/etc ...
I think the 6 was your charisma, you had 10+ int iirc, so being an astute student of warfare is pretty reasonable. You're just more sort to rip a fellow students throat out, rather than going out for drinks after class.
Yeah, if this was surged forward several levels (12+?) then things start to diverge, though not by as much as some might think with ToB, Warhulk, and a number of good magic items at a melee build's disposal.
Well, to be honest, if a caster can do everything a melee can do, doesn't that make them overpowered? The best example is, of course, the DMM cleric. On the days when there is no fight, he can still use divinations and various utility spells. This makes a fighter type totally unnecessary.
The only way to really test this is to give everyone roughly the same equip(preferably extremely limited items) so tat the classes are being tested instead of a person's ability to optimize gear.
Even in a strictly core game, all casters(even bards) are vastly more versatile in every situation. All of these encounters simply test ability to kill things. As has been pointed out, even commoners can kill things.
Also, its not a real test if we are only using off the wall, completely non-standard builds. Put a fighter/barb multiclass up against a caster.
Finally, i think everyone uses feat rogue wrong. If you are replacing sneak attack with feats, then you only get feats on the levels you get sneak attack. You don't get feats at rogue 1 and 2. That has always bothered me, but no one ever seems to care.
-AS-
Per Meyers complaint about me changing equipment, I'm going to try the first challenge with this mix, and stick to it in future. For the 2nd CR5 challenge, Bela would have had to do a different mix or have no chance on the hydra, so I will leave that alone. (he essentially traded in translocation anklet for anti-hydra consumables) For creepy things #2, this equipment shift would have made little difference. I'd have to have a policy of doing prot evil as I near a room to conserve charges, but given that I died twice there, I doubt any extra charges I might have burned really matter much.
I'll use this mix going forward though, and I need to redo the first adventure because my inexperience with the dice pool messed up the results anyway. The main difference is I added three MIC items - two 10 charge wands and the anklets of translocation. I also decided it was a good idea to have some "set vs charge" weapons and made them standard issue.
Did you redo the first adventure yet?
Well, to be honest, if a caster can do everything a melee can do, doesn't that make them overpowered? The best example is, of course, the DMM cleric. On the days when there is no fight, he can still use divinations and various utility spells. This makes a fighter type totally unnecessary.
Actually, on days that there is no fight, he is still working on keeping his buffs intact (extended spells). Additionally, to be as buff as his character is, he needs to spend a ton of gold. (I think the last posted amount was about $4000) Which means that normally, the character will not be as awesome as what is posted. (But, for purposes of this discussion it is exactly as overpowered as posted). Also, I am unsure how many spell slots/turn attempts he has open, which severely reduces the amount of out-of-combat stuff he can do.
He also only has 1 skill point/level.
The only way to really test this is to give everyone roughly the same equip(preferably extremely limited items) so tat the classes are being tested instead of a person's ability to optimize gear.
Tell you what, you tell the DMM cleric that he cannot have any of his items ... or that the Pearl of Power guy cannot participate.
Or that my guy cannot even use a spiked chain.
Gear is part of the character. It cannot be the same.
Even in a strictly core game, all casters(even bards) are vastly more versatile in every situation. All of these encounters simply test ability to kill things. As has been pointed out, even commoners can kill things.
The divine casters here have been very versatile (spell choices), very few of the arcane casters have any form of versatility (other than choosing which alter self form to turn into) as most do not have spell books.
Also, its not a real test if we are only using off the wall, completely non-standard builds. Put a fighter/barb multiclass up against a caster.
This is not PvP.
Which build is non-standard? My character I can EASILY see being played in a campaign I am in (I love playing multiclass charactes).
Finally, i think everyone uses feat rogue wrong. If you are replacing sneak attack with feats, then you only get feats on the levels you get sneak attack. You don't get feats at rogue 1 and 2. That has always bothered me, but no one ever seems to care.
Feat rogue says that you give up sneak attack to gain fighter feats as a fighter. It does not say that at levels where you would gain sneak attack you instead gain a fighter bonus feat.
I am still surprised that no casters have simply copied the gear from Meyer's build and whipped the gauntlet with that equipment(specifically the Desert Wind Cloak). Its also amusing that nothing has been proven about casters, noncasters, or anything else.
-AS-
I would love to see a caster using my equipment to whip through the gauntlet. Especially since they are level 5 (IL2.5, not high enough to use fire riposte). Using my spiked chain would require their 3rd level feat (BAB+1 requirement for EWP). etc ...
However, I think that any Alter-Self/Scintillating scales build won't care about AC/HPS so they should be able to do it. But they wouldn't be able to do it as fast as I do, which might lead to spells falling off ....
People in favor of allowing the psychic warrior build (currently submitted) to be counted in this thread. Voting ends at 10.30am EST thursday dec 20th.
Pro:
He does not use a single PP.
Con:
Psychic Warrior is crucial to the build and is a psionic class.
Me: Abstain. It would be conflict of interest for me to vote.
This should not be treated as opening the rules for Psionic classes, it is instead a one time waiver.
Actually, on days that there is no fight, he is still working on keeping his buffs intact (extended spells). Additionally, to be as buff as his character is, he needs to spend a ton of gold. (I think the last posted amount was about $4000) Which means that normally, the character will not be as awesome as what is posted. (But, for purposes of this discussion it is exactly as overpowered as posted). Also, I am unsure how many spell slots/turn attempts he has open, which severely reduces the amount of out-of-combat stuff he can do.
He also only has 1 skill point/level.
That is ludicrous and ignorant, in addition to ignoring what I said.
Tell you what, you tell the DMM cleric that he cannot have any of his items ... or that the Pearl of Power guy cannot participate.
Or that my guy cannot even use a spiked chain.
Gear is part of the character. It cannot be the same.
Again, ignoring my point for the sake of sarcasm. In addition to not actually comprehending the words I have used.
The divine casters here have been very versatile (spell choices), very few of the arcane casters have any form of versatility (other than choosing which alter self form to turn into) as most do not have spell books.
Willful ignorance in defense of your unproven, unprovable point.
This is not PvP.
Which build is non-standard? My character I can EASILY see being played in a campaign I am in (I love playing multiclass charactes).
Again, ignoring the point. I think I actually posted a multiclass option there, Barb/Fighter. Use that instead of Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Warblade. Better yet, just build a warblade. Taking the most outlandish builds and treating them as norms is foolish. It might actually prove your point if you use some standard builds against standard caster builds to see how classes play in a normal fashion.
Feat rogue says that you give up sneak attack to gain fighter feats as a fighter. It does not say that at levels where you would gain sneak attack you instead gain a fighter bonus feat.
If you give up sneak attack to gain feats, on levels where you give nothing up, you get nothing. Its how this sort of thing works. You can't trade nothing for a feat.
Those secondary class variants are also rather poorly thought out and hardly balanced. Give up the combat style feats from ranger for fast movement and wild shape?
-AS-
I would love to see a caster using my equipment to whip through the gauntlet. Especially since they are level 5 (IL2.5, not high enough to use fire riposte). Using my spiked chain would require their 3rd level feat (BAB+1 requirement for EWP). etc ...
However, I think that any Alter-Self/Scintillating scales build won't care about AC/HPS so they should be able to do it. But they wouldn't be able to do it as fast as I do, which might lead to spells falling off ....
There is no IL requirement to use Fire Riposte from the cloak. I believe this has already been covered. Why spend a feat when they can simply cast Heroics? In your fervor to prove your own point, you continually discount basic, well-known tactics, spells, everything from the casters point of view, while simply assuming that everything you do works.
-AS-
There is no IL requirement to use Fire Riposte from the cloak. I believe this has already been covered. Why spend a feat when they can simply cast Heroics? In your fervor to prove your own point, you continually discount basic, well-known tactics, spells, everything from the casters point of view, while simply assuming that everything you do works.
-AS-
No, what was covered was that I can use Fire Riposte from my cloak as my IL level for warblade is high enough to use it, even though it is not on his list of normally allowed maneuvers.
[edit]Heroics would work well, I look forward to seeing it happen.
That is ludicrous and ignorant, in addition to ignoring what I said.
Again, ignoring my point for the sake of sarcasm. In addition to not actually comprehending the words I have used.
Willful ignorance in defense of your unproven, unprovable point.
Again, ignoring the point. I think I actually posted a multiclass option there, Barb/Fighter. Use that instead of Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Warblade. Better yet, just build a warblade. Taking the most outlandish builds and treating them as norms is foolish. It might actually prove your point if you use some standard builds against standard caster builds to see how classes play in a normal fashion.
If you give up sneak attack to gain feats, on levels where you give nothing up, you get nothing. Its how this sort of thing works. You can't trade nothing for a feat.
Those secondary class variants are also rather poorly thought out and hardly balanced. Give up the combat style feats from ranger for fast movement and wild shape?
-AS-
What you are trying to do is crafting a completely artificial and absurd set of rules under which your point would be proven. It is ridiculous.
"Lets forbid multiclassing except the one I command you to use" Uh huh. Sorry, multiclass is a powerful tool for non-casters. It is something that casters can't do well because they need to watch their CL.
"Lets forbid the use of magic except for a few items" because that is how classes should be tested. Uh? No, that has no relation with how D&D is played. At all. And it clearly favors casters too.
"And lets say this and that sections of the SRD are broken because I say so!" This is the most amusing one. Directly attacking those class variants you arbitrarily and without any argument to support you viewpoint have decided are "poorly thought out and hardly balanced".
And you go on and on. And then get insulting when the OP rebates your points politely.
No, what was covered was that I can use Fire Riposte from my cloak as my IL level for warblade is high enough to use it, even though it is not on his list of normally allowed maneuvers.
I'm not searching the thread for it, but that was not what was covered. Mainly because no one would say that you couldn't use the cloak. IL was not a prerequisite of using a maneuver, merely choosing one and since the cloak grants the maneuver, the IL issue is irrelevant. You only need significant IL to select a maneuver via Martial Study or class levels, the item bypasses that as it grants the maneuver as known.
-AS-
That is ludicrous and ignorant, in addition to ignoring what I said.
Can you explain your objection better.
You said
Originally Posted by Ander Spectacular
Well, to be honest, if a caster can do everything a melee can do, doesn't that make them overpowered? The best example is, of course, the DMM cleric. On the days when there is no fight, he can still use divinations and various utility spells. This makes a fighter type totally unnecessary.
You reference the DMM cleric, you then use "he" in the next sentence, which leads me to believe that the "he" is referring to the DMM cleric. So my response of
Actually, on days that there is no fight, he is still working on keeping his buffs intact (extended spells). Additionally, to be as buff as his character is, he needs to spend a ton of gold. (I think the last posted amount was about $4000) Which means that normally, the character will not be as awesome as what is posted. (But, for purposes of this discussion it is exactly as overpowered as posted). Also, I am unsure how many spell slots/turn attempts he has open, which severely reduces the amount of out-of-combat stuff he can do.
He also only has 1 skill point/level.
Seems quite relevant. I am talking about the DMM Cleric on days when there are no fights. Now, if you mean "during downtime" when there is no possibility of a fight, then my statement would be incorrect. But on the day before the mission, the DMM Cleric is not casting divinations, he is running around getting his buff routine up-and-running.
Again, ignoring my point for the sake of sarcasm. In addition to not actually comprehending the words I have used.
You said
Originally Posted by Ander Spectacular
The only way to really test this is to give everyone roughly the same equip(preferably extremely limited items) so that the classes are being tested instead of a person's ability to optimize gear.
I responded
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
Tell you what, you tell the DMM cleric that he cannot have any of his items ... or that the Pearl of Power guy cannot participate.
Or that my guy cannot even use a spiked chain.
Gear is part of the character. It cannot be the same.
I gave you two examples of casters who have made it through the challenge. One uses about 1/2 his gold on expendables. The other uses 100% of his gold on personally crafted items (and uses all charges/spell slots).
Neither could work as written with changes.
Willful ignorance in defense of your unproven, unprovable point.
What part of the below quote is ignorance? I read it as a summation of the builds posted.
Originally Posted by Meyer_William
The divine casters here have been very versatile (spell choices), very few of the arcane casters have any form of versatility (other than choosing which alter self form to turn into) as most do not have spell books.
True, my point is unproven and unprovable. But it is interesting regardless, and we are making progress.
Again, ignoring the point. I think I actually posted a multiclass option there, Barb/Fighter. Use that instead of Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Warblade. Better yet, just build a warblade. Taking the most outlandish builds and treating them as norms is foolish. It might actually prove your point if you use some standard builds against standard caster builds to see how classes play in a normal fashion.
So, there is a point in multiclassing where the build is outlandish? How many classes is that? My build is organic and is doing exactly what I want it to ... I actually need to pick up a couple more classes (Take a look at my level 10 for a hint). In the end, I have really high saves and evasion+mettle. This makes the character durable as well as having lots of options at any given point in time.
I am actually working on a fighter/barbarian build -- it will be going frenzied berzerker -- but it just seems so boring.
If you give up sneak attack to gain feats, on levels where you give nothing up, you get nothing. Its how this sort of thing works. You can't trade nothing for a feat.
Lets compare feat rogue to bloodlines.
Pre-level 6, what have you given up for the feat you gained at level 4?
But, can you point to the RAW reason why a feat rogue doesn't get a fighter feat at level 2?
Those secondary class variants are also rather poorly thought out and hardly balanced. Give up the combat style feats from ranger for fast movement and wild shape?
-AS-
Regarldless of how well thought out or balanced they are ... they are rules published by WoTC.
What you are trying to do is crafting a completely artificial and absurd set of rules under which your point would be proven. It is ridiculous.
"Lets forbid multiclassing except the one I command you to use" Uh huh. Sorry, multiclass is a powerful tool for non-casters. It is something that casters can't do well because they need to watch their CL.
"Lets forbid the use of magic except for a few items" because that is how classes should be tested. Uh? No, that has no relation with how D&D is played. At all. And it clearly favors casters too.
"And lets say this and that sections of the SRD are broken because I say so!" This is the most amusing one. Directly attacking those class variants you arbitrarily and without any argument to support you viewpoint have decided are "poorly thought out and hardly balanced".
And you go on and on. And then get insulting when the OP rebates your points politely.
I do go on and on, but mainly because the reading comprehension level seems so low. Actually what you contend I do not say at all.
What I am asserting is that for this to be a useful thread(which it is not), there must be standards. There are many singular builds that cause problems. This goes for melee and caster, but this small number of builds in no way illustrates any global truth of the game. Saying that the Hulking Hurler can destroy the world is great, but what about a fighter?
And neither of you have rebutted anything I say, instead neatly sidestepping the questions and reasserting things without any basis of evidence. Just because you can poorly quote people does not mean you are saying anything productive either. I would like Meyer's real point to be explored, but this thread in no way examines that.
It is hypocritical of you to complain about me being insulting when you return the favor. Meyer didn't answer any of my points directly and just like you he neatly sidesteps the real issues in this thread.
-AS-
I'm not searching the thread for it, but that was not what was covered. Mainly because no one would say that you couldn't use the cloak. IL was not a prerequisite of using a maneuver, merely choosing one and since the cloak grants the maneuver, the IL issue is irrelevant. You only need significant IL to select a maneuver via Martial Study or class levels, the item bypasses that as it grants the maneuver as known.
-AS-
Here, let me help -- here is you
I am impartial here. I defended the cloak and its use due to IL issues. I simply do not like people assuming things about mechanics without fully examining what they are talking about. The martial items are great for non-adepts because you simply gain a 1/encounter ability. The items are nice for adepts in that they can be used to qualify for other maneuvers and then the item can be discarded(as once you meet the prereqs for a maneuver it can self-qualify). At low initiator level, though, having a limited number of readied maneuvers is there for a reason.
-AS-
talking about the below.
{EDIT, the below is from the spoiler posted from cust serv}
Initiator Level is always a prerequisite for all maneuvers and stances. The prerequisites required for the Crown of White Ravens or the Martial Study feat are only Initiator Level and maneuvers known. They do not care about class. Of course you can’t qualify for the high end maneuvers of a certain discipline if you don’t have the prerequisite maneuvers from earlier in that discipline. These options allow you to choose maneuvers from disciplines you normally don’t have access to (as long as you meet the general Initiator Level and maneuver prerequisites.)
What I am asserting is that for this to be a useful thread(which it is not), there must be standards. There are many singular builds that cause problems. This goes for melee and caster, but this small number of builds in no way illustrates any global truth of the game. Saying that the Hulking Hurler can destroy the world is great, but what about a fighter?
Standards ...
like the rules posted in the first thread?
like the people who examine all builds for legality/reasonability issues?
What additional standards would you like?
And neither of you have rebutted anything I say, instead neatly sidestepping the questions and reasserting things without any basis of evidence. Just because you can poorly quote people does not mean you are saying anything productive either. I would like Meyer's real point to be explored, but this thread in no way examines that.
It is hypocritical of you to complain about me being insulting when you return the favor. Meyer didn't answer any of my points directly and just like you he neatly sidesteps the real issues in this thread.
-AS-
Which point did I miss?
What am I sidestepping?
Seems quite relevant. I am talking about the DMM Cleric on days when there are no fights. Now, if you mean "during downtime" when there is no possibility of a fight, then my statement would be incorrect. But on the day before the mission, the DMM Cleric is not casting divinations, he is running around getting his buff routine up-and-running.
In your quote you actually say "on days where there is no fight, he is still working on keeping his buffs intact". Lets not play this game. If there is no fight, there is no keeping buffs intact. You are being silly.
I gave you two examples of casters who have made it through the challenge. One uses about 1/2 his gold on expendables. The other uses 100% of his gold on personally crafted items (and uses all charges/spell slots).
Neither could work as written with changes.
I said roughly the same.
Then you counter with intentional misquoting and hyperbole.
So, there is a point in multiclassing where the build is outlandish? How many classes is that? My build is organic and is doing exactly what I want it to ... I actually need to pick up a couple more classes (Take a look at my level 10 for a hint). In the end, I have really high saves and evasion+mettle. This makes the character durable as well as having lots of options at any given point in time.
If you want to actually prove your point it needs to be a point provable in a wide variety of cases not just in the overwhelming exceptions. A vanilla wizard is more powerful than a Vanilla melee. Certainly you can make a brilliant Rocky Road melee, but thats not very surprising. I believe this was brought up in the beginning of the thread and immediately discounted.
-AS-
What I am asserting is that for this to be a useful thread(which it is not), there must be standards. There are many singular builds that cause problems. This goes for melee and caster, but this small number of builds in no way illustrates any global truth of the game. Saying that the Hulking Hurler can destroy the world is great, but what about a fighter?
What about fighter?
What the hell has fighter to do with "Examples of overpowered casters"?
It is completely irrelevant. Just like 99% of your comments.
The issue is starting with undead minions. Druid starts with an animal companion as it is a class ability. Undead minions are not a class ability of the class he posted. Which is why he cannot start with any. This objection was posted prior to him posting any fights and part of my objection was quoted and acted upon.
Someone pointed out that animate dead'ing from a scroll might not work. Then hiring someone to do it, then reading a scroll of "Control Undead" works identically (possibly cheaper)
Is this sufficient to count as legit for having the undead (updates to Gurth based on all these discussions so that the desecrating and what not are all inately part if not core to his capabilities, even animating the zombies through 'Fell Animate'):
Gurth Dead Walker
Meyer's mental stats, 6,8,10
Ikerens mental stats, 6,10,16
Bela's mental stats: int 13 wis 10 cha 8
Yeah he's allowed to be smart.
(he's also done on elite array, I didn't switch to point buy)
As a side note, I won't probably have time to upgrade him to L7 until this weekend and then holiday stuff may intervene but I suspect hexblade3+delay potion is going to defeat fighter4+bull rush/shock trooper. The former beefs up his nonphysical defenses (including Mettle, an answer to Ghoul Glyph and the elemental Orb spells, plus quite a number of touch based spells) while allowing him a very rapid transition from "turtle mode" to "size large, reach weapon and raging" mode.
Shock trooper is great if you're sure the enemy is going to die (or if you have team support to keep you protected/alive), but level 7 vs CR7+ that's not at all a given, especially when your MO is to blunder into things, have your passive defenses keep you alive until you can act and then try to kill it before it kills you. There are too many encounters where it isn't clear I can charge anyway (snow, cave corridors, slopes, hindered terrain etc) to invest so heavily in one approach. This isn't like my barb/druid where it has woodland stride, air walk, freedom of movement, air walk and massive spot/listen/hide/move silent to be the one charging rather than the chargee.
I've also had some practice with delay potion with my L14 monk and grasp how to use it to best advantage. Being able to afford some least crystals of return to give me quickdraw on a weapon or two will also help out a lot with the transition. Heck, 10k extra cash makes a tremendous difference in having equipment and affordable consumables beyond the basics.
Bela is now final bela and new tactics have been posted. I think they are good as he has done it more than once already, but I don't think that anyone has really examined them yet. Which is why there is the discrepancy.
This is just like how I moved my character from Win to Almost Win.
Yeah, the only one closely examined was the Planar challenge, because Otto is planning to use it in an adventure. I tried to be pretty conservative though. The anklet of translocation plus high AC/attack mods were sufficient to mitigate the tough encountes in the basic L5 challenge. He could only beat the hydra with a gear reshuffle, swapping translocation anklets for consumables. L7 Bela won't have that problem, he's got a lot more offense on tap.
I think though it will hold up well enough to scrutiny. He can beat CR5 stuff (and level 4 beat CR4 stuff) but he dies half the time to CR6 stuff. Most of the CR6 deaths were just being on the wrong end of dealing damage vs taking damage curve, but there was the encounter where the Lamia fed him to the Pyrohydra, and the encounter with the ghoul glyph....
I'm pretty certain the CR7 build will reliably defeat the CR6 stuff, and the kobold adventure. Well, maybe not the final boss in the planar encounter, I think we've got template stacking issues there that make his attack mods and armor class unusually high. But perhaps, Bela 7 has a lot of raw power that Bela 5 is lacking. Gear (which translates to buffs he can do in the field), and iterative attacks and extra BAB help quite a bit. I'm still trying to work mostly with PHB/DMG/Complete series stuff (and a little spell compendium) but some key MIC gear is starting to sneak in and the 10 charge wands are a very big deal. (in a real game he'd spend 10k on two +2 stat boost items and a magic weapon. In a solo game he needs more power and versatility than that, so he does statboost and weapon boosts with consumables and uses them only when he's pretty sure there will be a fight or when he desperately needs them)
I'm also remaining strong and not using flaws, even though they would let me do fun things like shock trooper, or quickdraw+close quarters combat, but I will be using lion totem substitution from Complete Champion. It does NOT have an armor restriction! So I'm trading fast movement I can't even use for pounce when I can charge? Talk about a no-brainer. (hey, the melees gotta have a few stupid things in the build too
). I need to look over the ranger substitution stuff too. I don't really use track or favored enemy (in Bela L5 I think I forgot to set it entirely). I should see if there's something out there I might use. Otherwise probably favored enemy elemental, as there isn't any other way to mitigate their DR.Yeah, the only one closely examined was the Planar challenge, because Otto is planning to use it in an adventure.
I think though it will hold up well enough to scrutiny. He can beat CR5 stuff (and level 4 beat CR4 stuff) but he dies half the time to CR6 stuff.
Can you PM me the link to the CR5?
Bela's mental stats: int 13 wis 10 cha 8
Yeah he's allowed to be smart.
(he's also done on elite array, I didn't switch to point buy)
Thats cool, didn't mean to set a minimum or anything, just responding to a previous point. I consider these characters something more along the lines of theoretical character optimization than something that has to be played to the hilt.
Can you PM me the link to the CR5?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14588659&postcount=1724
Immediately after the Final Bela build post.
Heh, actually reading through it again, I think Bela has some rose-covered memories. There were some close calls and pawning of equipment for spellcasting services partway through.
Thats cool, didn't mean to set a minimum or anything, just responding to a previous point. I consider these characters something more along the lines of theoretical character optimization than something that has to be played to the hilt.
Yeah. I can't help trying to make it make a little sense from a roleplay perspective since mine is an adaption of a real character, although Real Bela does stuff with beguiler levels that Final Bela does with consumables and ranger/hexblade levels.
The character IS arrogant enough to try to do stuff solo and his backstory DID include being a scavanger in the ruins of a planar-disaster+war wrecked kingdom. So it isn't too much of a stretch that if he had some success he might go down this road. I think though he would establish ressurection funds and leave notes on his body
It explains where the extra cash goes.What about fighter?
What the hell has fighter to do with "Examples of overpowered casters"?
It is completely irrelevant. Just like 99% of your comments.
Way to again ignore the point. This is my last comment in response to you out of respect for this thread and the CoC.
I do not think that anywhere anyone has said there are not examples of powerful melee types, only that those are not the norm. Melees are useful and have a very important role in play the entire game, but the fact that they have limited ability to do anything other than swing a sword and hit or take a beating means their impact upon the game is rather one-dimensional and easily replicable. Casters are useful as well and have an important role, but they have access to a much wider variety of tactics, strategies and power which can completely mitigate the need for a dedicated melee type at all(even at low levels).
Since D&D is designed to focus on the party(4 person) it doesn't matter how well a single character can do in a set of arbitrary challenges. It also doesn't reflect any sort of rp decision making. For example, would any seasoned adventurer enter a cave to hunt down a dragon alone?
What is overpowered is that a party of 4 casters can do everything that a party of 4 noncasters can do, but can do it better and can do more things on top of their specialization. This sort of thing is very difficult to prove via the challenge mechanism, which gives no scoring aside from victory/defeat. Because of this, people have come here simply trying to kill everything in their path the easy way, brute force, and the casters have done as well as the noncasters in this. To make it more complete, it should be like solbergb's scenario in the Sorceror v warmage thread.
-AS-
Round 1:
I win init
I drop my stance, and enter total defense (AC 20):
It hits me three times (45% chance each) for a total of 19.5 damage.
Round 2-whatever.
I double move and heal. I then use a charge from my belt. I am now at 26.5 hps.
Round whatever +1
I ready an action to move 30' when I am attacked.
I will either take 0 damage from the next set of 6 spikes (favors me) or I will take 0 damage from the next spike. Alternately, I might just get hit one spike at a time, which is no big deal for me, as I can easily heal that (draconic aura).
It now either gives up on me, (win) or uses up its spikes and it needs to engage me on the ground. Per my previous posting. On the ground, it loses. (I drop it to 5 hps in first round, per previous postings).
If it dive bombs me (moves and melee attacks), I get one AoO on it, then I start moving. I either get hit (fire riposte) or I don't get hit, either way. Dive bombing is not a viable win tactic for it. In fact, if it doesn't end up out of my reach, this kills it.
I either spend one or two charges for healing. I have 5 available and I use one charge for each of encounters 2-4, which means I had two available to use.
I have no duration spells in place, so I do not care how long this battle takes. I don't really know how to describe this better as there are too many variables to take into account. For instance, to increase its sight range, it needs to get closer to the ground. If it gets too close to the ground, then I can charge/kill it (assuming it takes even 5 damage from the earlier part of the fight).
Here is my final redo of the Manticore
If it dive bombs me (moves and melee attacks), I get one AoO on it,
It has flyby attack so if you are the target of the attack then you do not get an AoO on it.
It has flyby attack so if you are the target of the attack then you do not get an AoO on it.
Flyby Attack does not negate AoOs. You need Improved Flyby Attack for that.
Flyby Attack does not negate AoOs. You need Improved Flyby Attack for that.
I sit corrected.
So this boils down to a cleric, warmage, wizard, specialist wizard, and druid winning, with the only "melee" wins being a pao/umd rogue and a heavy expendables character who is listed as not examined (since rebuild?) Kinda hard to parse. Is the challenge pretty much over now?
I would say the evidence is pretty strong that casters > non-casters at level 5. I'm not sure why we're going up in levels, if anything we need to be going down.
Show of hands.
People in favor of allowing the psychic warrior to be counted in this thread. Voting ends at 10.30am EST thursday dec 20th.
Pro:
He does not use a single PP.
Con:
Psychic Warrior is crucial to the build and is a psionic class.
Me: Abstain. It would be conflict of interest for me to vote.
This should not be treated as opening the rules for Psionic classes, it is instead a one time waiver.
Yes if that opens the Psion for discussion. No if the Psion is still off limits.
Round whatever +1
I ready an action to move 30' when I am attacked.
I will either take 0 damage from the next set of 6 spikes (favors me) or I will take 0 damage from the next spike. Alternately, I might just get hit one spike at a time, which is no big deal for me, as I can easily heal that (draconic aura).
How do you figure you won't take damage from the other sets of spikes?
I would say the evidence is pretty strong that casters > non-casters at level 5. I'm not sure why we're going up in levels, if anything we need to be going down.
I disagree.
Of the 6 casters who won, three of them are virtually the same build (Otherworldly, AlterSelf). So really, there are 4 unique builds ... and 3 unique noncasters. So no, the evidence is not strong that casters > noncasters at level 5.
There are currently 6/19 (31%) wins for casters and 3/7 (42%) wins for noncasters.
The PAO rogue is essentially the noncaster version of the three alterself builds.
My Ranger will be the noncaster version of your druid for comparison.
Since Cust Serv is not responding, I will be taking my ranger through tonight ... using only some of the cheese I had been planning. I expect this will be really easy (better BAB, more feats, etc than the druid, same damage from primary form).
How do you figure you won't take damage from the other sets of spikes?
If I move, I am an invalid target for the remaining spikes as it can no longer see me (out of visibility).
Gurth Dead Walker
CR5 Combats - Gurth should win them all
Issues, complaints, comments, errors?
Will look through the Dragon encounter again but it will probably be easier if I apply more intelligent tactics than presented.
If I hear some sort of OKs then I'll proceed with 'silly' and a level 7 version of Gurth. I am fairly sure Gurth cannot do 'silly' as this Level 5 build but I'll take a look at that too.
Manticore
Round 3 -
Manticore> 80% Hit Rate for 5 Hits and 33 damage to 'Weak' Ogre Zombie, killing 'Weak' Ogre Zombie.
Young Black Dragon
'Weak' Ogre Zombie swings and misses dragon.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie swings and hits dragon for 21 damage.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie swings and misses dragon.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie partial charges and hits dragon for 21 damage, killing dragon.
So, the weak zombie, which died vs the manticore kills the dragon?
So, the weak zombie, which died vs the manticore kills the dragon?
He would require another Zombie - he has enough desecrate doses and I think I've demonstrated that he is capable of that. He also can cast fell animate spells 2 times/day using Naenhoon.
Or are these intended to be perfectly serial in one day?
He would require another Zombie - he has enough desecrate doses and I think I've demonstrated that he is capable of that. He also can cast fell animate spells 2 times/day using Naenhoon.
Or are these intended to be perfectly serial in one day?
If you need to go get another zombie, you need to specify it in the character description of the mini-adventure. If you don't, then you must forgive us if we don't know how you got the next zombie.
People have posted "I then go back to town to do X activity before continuing" or "I rest 2 days to offset the stat damage"
One character basically posted "I nova then sleep before going to the next encounter"
If I move, I am an invalid target for the remaining spikes as it can no longer see me (out of visibility).
I don't see this working.
First problem, you can't act until you've already been attacked so too late for that.
Second problem, if he is above you and throwning down at you then he can see 60' and you move 30'. You get halfway to the edge of his vision and eat a facefull of spikes.
;)
To make it more complete, it should be like solbergb's scenario in the Sorceror v warmage thread.
-AS-
Yeah, except that needs a bunch of NPC's roboted by a GM, like I'm doing.
That's a scenario I played and that I ran at several APL's. It isn't an accident I picked an iconic cleric, dwarf and rogue more or less based on Jozan, Tordek and Lydda in both overall style and behavior to accompany the arcanist. If Tordek ever gets near an enemy he's pretty dangerous and Jozan has a few noncore medic/support spells and buff spells that he'll use if not under constant pressure to heal someone. The rogue, well, was to introduce an extra dynamic that would add urgency and encourage battlefield control spells, but also let me have someone floating near the enemy spellcasters to interrupt a key spell.
The non-PC's though are from a real adventure, the NPC's pretty much exact, the bad guys a touch more optomized than the real encounter, but not a lot more. Just a bit better spell selection on the pre-ambush buffing, a masterwork instrument for the bard, more arrow options for the archers and swapping precise shot for woodland archer - given the way they fight, their victims (er enemies) are rarely in melee, but often are benefitting from big penalties form range or horseback riding at high speeds that woodland archer does a lot to even out.
Without having run that encounter multiple times though, I'd have been less confident in showing it in a generic way on the boards. Some of the dice pool averaging used here I've ported over quietly for the archers, but I'm actually rolling dice (and using same results in all 3 flavors) on critical things like "does the rogue hit AC27 flatfooted plus entropic shield with his arrow while invisible to interrupt a spelll...odds say yes, but he's got a decent failure chance" and on most saving throws. It's important to show the impact of random dice on arcanist strategies in a team context.
(indeed, the warmage was doing great until initiative timing stuck him in a silence field, prone. If his teammates can somehow remove it before the archers go again, he'll waste the encounter. If not, it could go ugly very quickly....same could have happened to the others, but they were not so far from main party....warmage had to do that to use wall of fire...even "better" spells sometimes leave you in worse situations)
I liked that encounter also because it showed a bunch of things that make it a good arcane challenge.
1. The mission, timing and probable set of enemies were known the night before. This favors prep caster.
2. The exact enemy and timing was not known till it happened. This favors spont casters
3. The encounter involves long range combat, missile combat and concealment/battlefield control are key to victory. This means the arcane caster, whomever he is, is going to be the star of the encounter
4. The bad guys use anti-caster tactics aggressively. This favors defenses to anti-casters of whatever kind, be they AC spells, miss chance spells, silent spell, interfering with enemy ability to detect you are casting, etc. All the warmage has in this area is his armor and vision-blocking spells. The sorceress chosen has some weird stuff with smokesticks and swift spells to draw readies followed by real spell later. This may or may not help the wizard, who has some good defenses but they aren't up now and he's suffering from action starvation.
5. The other PC's and NPC's are much, much more useful if the arcanist can help them get into the fight.
They have a lot of shorter range abilities, some of which are very powerful, but the information on them
is sketchy. The PC's were formed for just this adventure (Living Greyhawk style) and the NPC's were met the
prior night, one of them falling down drunk, the other mostly mad at him and not forming tactical sessions with
the party members on how to work together. This means spells oriented to helping the team will still work,
generally favoring wizard or sorcerer over the warmage.
6. The bad guys are tough enough to shrug off some level appropriate direct damage but not repeated doses of it. Their mounts will survive if they make saves, not if they don't. This favors warmage over prep caster, but any damage
done will be rapidly followed up by other party members to finish enemies.
I disagree.
Of the 6 casters who won, three of them are virtually the same build (Otherworldly, AlterSelf). So really, there are 4 unique builds ... and 3 unique noncasters. So no, the evidence is not strong that casters > noncasters at level 5.
There are currently 6/19 (31%) wins for casters and 3/7 (42%) wins for noncasters.
The PAO rogue is essentially the noncaster version of the three alterself builds.
My Ranger will be the noncaster version of your druid for comparison.
Since Cust Serv is not responding, I will be taking my ranger through tonight ... using only some of the cheese I had been planning. I expect this will be really easy (better BAB, more feats, etc than the druid, same damage from primary form).
You are severely skewing the results looking at them that way. My summoner which was submitted with a strategy that would easilly clear the cr5 challenge is still marked as failing. Your tactic vs the manticore that still doesn't work is counted as a win.
That is on a group of solo encounters, of which one of them is DM fiatted as a can't be detected ambush that allows a grapple from a monster that would never be able to grapple under normal circumstances. So basically the set of encounters is as bad as could be for the casters and they still blow right through them. I bet if you remove the rug the casters have about a 90% pass rate.
If I remeber right you give up your companion for your wildshape ranger? So instead of Pouncy + druid you have the wildshape (but not casting) aspect of the druid. That is blatantly weaker right there. Basically the ranger is a watered down version of the druid if you try to play him like that.
If you need to go get another zombie, you need to specify it in the character description of the mini-adventure. If you don't, then you must forgive us if we don't know how you got the next zombie.
People have posted "I then go back to town to do X activity before continuing" or "I rest 2 days to offset the stat damage"
One character basically posted "I nova then sleep before going to the next encounter"
Ok - updated combat to include acquiring new zombie. This introduces a time lag for the character for the next encounter.
I think this is good then yes? Success for the combats?
You are severely skewing the results looking at them that way. My summoner which was submitted with a strategy that would easilly clear the cr5 challenge is still marked as failing. Your tactic vs the manticore that still doesn't work is counted as a win.
Let me look at your summoner again and repost the issues I have with it. Can you point me to your current build of the summoner. The one linked to from the first page does not use the smoking bottle.
As it stands, for the build linked to from the first page, the summoner starts casting, and is killed by the manticore (vs full round casting) or maybe the manticore just disrupts the spell.
That is on a group of solo encounters, of which one of them is DM fiatted as a can't be detected ambush that allows a grapple from a monster that would never be able to grapple under normal circumstances. So basically the set of encounters is as bad as could be for the casters and they still blow right through them. I bet if you remove the rug the casters have about a 90% pass rate.
I didn't put the encounters together, other people did - so DM fiat is not quite right. I would rather you say "Game Fiat'ed" as it is the game, not the DM that causes this to occur. If you look at the failed casters, it isn't the rug that kills them (alone). Most casters took false life + some ability to get out of grapple, so as long as they took it into account when creating their build, they still live.
If I remeber right you give up your companion for your wildshape ranger? So instead of Pouncy + druid you have the wildshape (but not casting) aspect of the druid. That is blatantly weaker right there. Basically the ranger is a watered down version of the druid if you try to play him like that.
Nope, I give up the combat style tree ... I also gain fast movement.
I didn't put the encounters together, other people did - so DM fiat is not quite right. I would rather you say "Game Fiat'ed" as it is the game, not the DM that causes this to occur. If you look at the failed casters, it isn't the rug that kills them (alone). Most casters took false life + some ability to get out of grapple, so as long as they took it into account when creating their build, they still live.
Nope, I give up the combat style tree ... I also gain fast movement.
I didn't say you put them together, but any encounter that says you just plain get supprised with no way to detect is pretty much BS. If your DM springs that kind of thing on you regularly its time to find another DM. For failed casters its almost exclusively the rug, or the rug and snake that gets them.
A lot of casters posted builds and then just left the thread when they saw how you were running things. You have the other fleshraker druid listed as a fail because he had metal armor on. I'd like to see you justify that. Count it as not complete maybe, but it is extremely disingenous to call that a failure.
It has been proven to my satisfaction that non-casters are at best equal to casters at level 5. I would say evidence strongly points to the casters being stronger.
EDIT: With the animal companion of a 3rd level druid you can't pick a fleshraker anyway. So its 2 dinos v 1 dino.
I didn't say you put them together, but any encounter that says you just plain get supprised with no way to detect is pretty much BS. If your DM springs that kind of thing on you regularly its time to find another DM. For failed casters its almost exclusively the rug, or the rug and snake that gets them.
I had a new DM that for the first session, every encounter was an ambush (6 in a row). No way of spotting/detecting/avoiding them. Explained that it was not fun. Next session was not as bad, but had an archer demon in sparse trees (vs party level 5)
A lot of casters posted builds and then just left the thread when they saw how you were running things. You have the other fleshraker druid listed as a fail because he had metal armor on. I'd like to see you justify that. Count it as not complete maybe, but it is extremely disingenous to call that a failure.
The other fleshraker druid has been listed as a "incomplete/unable to participate". I am not sure how/why you think it is listed as a failure. Now, I did post that he did not post tactics to beat the first encounter ... but for scoring reasons, it is listed as "can not yet compete"
As far as the other posters leaving, I can easily imagine people leaving when their builds are denied for not following the posted rules, being incomplete, or outright illegal. Others left when they said that they did not have time to fix up their builds.
EDIT: With the animal companion of a 3rd level druid you can't pick a fleshraker anyway. So its 2 dinos v 1 dino.
That is correct. One fleshraker to 2. However next level (6) when you pick up natural spell, and I pick up that companion bond thing (since it has been said to work), then we are 2 dinos vs 2 dinos.
I didn't say you put them together, but any encounter that says you just plain get supprised with no way to detect is pretty much BS. If your DM springs that kind of thing on you regularly its time to find another DM. For failed casters its almost exclusively the rug, or the rug and snake that gets them.
Yes, because as we have seen monsters never have high hide/move silently and better spot/listen scores than casters.
Wait a second, except for druids they almost always do!
A lot of casters posted builds and then just left the thread when they saw how you were running things. You have the other fleshraker druid listed as a fail because he had metal armor on. I'd like to see you justify that. Count it as not complete maybe, but it is extremely disingenous to call that a failure.
A lot of posters have never completed their builds. Many are lacking skills and/or spellbooks. Many use completely flawed tactics and a severe lack of understanding of how combat works in D&D. Also casters builds vastly outnumber non-caster builds. Moreover many of the successful caster builds managed only after half a dozen tweaks.
It has been proven to my satisfaction that non-casters are at best equal to casters at level 5. I would say evidence strongly points to the casters being stronger.
What evidence? That after many tries some posters have managed to post a couple of overpowered builds and a handful that win some gauntlets by the skin of their teeth? I took minutes to post with my PAO rogue and I have not made any tweak. And I wasn't even trying back then, I did not use flaws, traits, optimized spells or even an optimized PAO form. I just grabbed something the casters were using to prove a point and attached it to a non-caster, which proceeded to win the gauntlet far more easily than any caster had done before.
EDIT: With the animal companion of a 3rd level druid you can't pick a fleshraker anyway. So its 2 dinos v 1 dino.
But if his ranger is better at killing stuff, better at surviving and has more skills than any of the two, who is better? Numbers might mean nothing.
Yes, because as we have seen monsters never have high hide/move silently and better spot/listen scores than casters.
Wait a second, except for druids they almost always do!
I have no problem with putting a spot difficulty on it, or listen whatever. But essentially ruling by fiat that it gets supprise and grapple in the first round is bunk. It negates a ton of tricks casters can/do use.
A lot of posters have never completed their builds. Many are lacking skills and/or spellbooks. Many use completely flawed tactics and a severe lack of understanding of how combat works in D&D. Also casters builds vastly outnumber non-caster builds. Moreover many of the successful caster builds managed only after half a dozen tweaks.
Listing those as failures is incredibly misleading. ONLY 6/19 CASTERS SUCCEEDED! (the other 13 I objected to).
The successfull caster builds often did tweak thier builds, removing things that Meyer decided he didn't like. I don't see how that proves anything.
What evidence? That after many tries some posters have managed to post a couple of overpowered builds and a handful that win some gauntlets by the skin of their teeth? I took minutes to post with my PAO rogue and I have not made any tweak. And I wasn't even trying back then, I did not use flaws, traits, optimized spells or even an optimized PAO form. I just grabbed something the casters were using to prove a point and attached it to a non-caster, which proceeded to win the gauntlet far more easily than any caster had done before.
That the most powerful builds by far are casters? I would say DMM and both druids blow away the melee by miles. They don't use alter self, let alone finding a high level wizard to cast a spell for them.
How about that there have been a huge variety of casters that have been posted while there have only been a handful of melee that even are strong enough to warrent consideration.
But if his ranger is better at killing stuff, better at surviving and has more skills than any of the two, who is better? Numbers might mean nothing.
Sooo, his ranger with a smaller HD that trades his animal companion and spells for 2bab and 2 skills a level is going to be stronger?
Somehow I seriously doubt that.
That is correct. One fleshraker to 2. However next level (6) when you pick up natural spell, and I pick up that companion bond thing (since it has been said to work), then we are 2 dinos vs 2 dinos.
Bzzt. You aren't negating a penalty, you just don't get as large an animal companion as a druid. You have the same ability that a level 3 druid has, which does not allow chosing a fleshraker.
At level 8 you could select a fleshraker and then you could use your feat to negate the penalty for a stronger companion.
EDIT: The reason I say you claim the other fleshraker is a failure is you listed it as 6/19. Its not 6/19, since there are a bunch of builds that either didn't post tactics, or overspent on items or just didn't run thier numbers or some little thing. It would be more accurate to say something like 6/9 casters succeeded and 1/6 melee
Here are the tactics for Gurth when he runs through the CR5 Mini adventure. It looks like he succeeds fairly easily.
Gurth Dead Walker
CR5 Mini Adventure
Starting notes:
Charnel Touch:
*will do 5.5 points of damage when doing touch attacks
*will heal undead 1 point plus 1 point per four levels. So, 2 points of healing with each touch.
Chill Touch: will do 3.5 points of damage when doing touch attacks, DC 14 Fort to avoid strength loss
Spectral Hand: Adds +2 to hit and has 140ft (Gurth is 4th Level caster) and Charnel Touch works through it.
Encounter 1
Gurth casts False Life (9.5 temp hit points) and Spectral Hand (4 minutes) before entering clearing (2/4 2nd Level Spells).
250' range - Gurth and Griffon+Bugbear spot each other. (I'm fairly certain that I might have been able to sneak up but so be it..
Round 1: %50 that Gurth goes first. Just say Griffon+Bugbear go first.
Griffon+bugbear> Fly 160' closing distance
Gurth> Casts Chill Touch (1/7 1st Level Spells) and tries to touch Griffon using spectral hand. 80% chance to touch using spectral hand, so does 7.2 damage (0.8 * (5.5 Charnel Touch + 3.5 Chill Touch)). Griffon will miss the strength save 25% of the time so 0.8*0.25*1=0.2 Strength Damage
Griffon Status> 51.8 hit points, lost 0.2 strength
Round 2:
Griffon+Bugbear> Griffon dives at Gurth for pounce. 85% Bite hits, 70% Claws and rakes hit. Gurth takes 16.05 damage.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> AoO the Griffon that was being directed to charge Gurth by the Bugbear. 75% chance to hit and would hit for average of 21 damage so call it 0.75*21 = 15.75 damage
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> AoO the Griffon that was being directed to charge Gurth by the Bugbear. 80% chance to hit and would hit for average of 21 damage so call it 0.80*22 = 17.6 damage
Bugbear> Gets off Griffon - no attack of opporunities left, and swings on Gurth. Has a 55% chance to hit for (6.5 - 2 for DR or 4.5), so call it 4.5*.55=2.475 damage.
Gurth Status> Gurth has 21.975 hit points
Griffon Status> Griffon has 18.45 hit points left and lost 0.2 strength
Gurth> Touches Griffon for 7.2 damage like before
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Does 15.75 damage finishing off Griffon.
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Has 80% chance of hitting bugbear. Hits for 17.6 damage and kills bugbear.
Gurth uses Charnel Touch on himself for 5 rounds to get to full health, moving 30' each time to approach entrance while Ogre Zombies keep pace.
Encounter 2:
@ Entrance Gurth casts 'summon undead I' human skeleton (2/7 1st level spells) and sends the skeleton ahead - falls in trap.
Encounter 3:
Gurth casts another 'summon undead I' human skeleton (3/7 1st level spells) and sends the skeleton ahead - shoker lizards kill it. Gurth sends in Ogre Zombies.
Round 1:
Shocker Lizards> Shock ogre zombies (6d8=27) Ogre Zombies will make the saves 40% of the time, so 10.8 damage to each.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 68.2 hit points
'Strong' Ogre Zombie Status> 68.2 hit points
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> kills shocker.
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> kills shocker.
Round 2:
Shocker Lizard> cowers? tries to shock?
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> kills shocker lizard
Heal ogre Zombies with Charnel Touch. 12 Rounds each so 24 rounds. Spectral hand is no longer running.
Encounter 4:
Cloaker suprises and moans while Gurth was doing the healing above, immune to moan, zombies kill it.
Encounter 5:
Gurth recasts spectral hand outside door and casts chill touch (3/4 2nd level spells and 4/7 1st level spells)
Round 1:
Hydra> double moves forward for 40'
Gurth> Sends zombies forward and casts scare (4/4 2nd level spells). Has 50% chance to make the save and is 6HD so if it fails, combat over.
Zombies> move forward right next to Hydra invoking AoO. Hydra has 70% chance to hit so does (0.7*8.5) = 5.95 damage to Ogre Zombie
Wounded Zombie Status> 73.05 hit points left
Round 2 (assuming Hyrda made scare save):
Hydra> Full attack on the Ogre Zombie it did AoO on for 35.7 damage
Wounded Zombie Status> 37.35 hit points left
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings, hitting 85% of the time for 0.85*22 = 18.7
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings, hitting 80% of the time for 0.80*21 = 16.8
Gurth> Touches with spectral hand, hitting 90% of the time for 0.9*9 damage = 8.1
Hydra Status> 22.4 hit points
Round 3:
Hydra> Fast heals 16 and rips into same ogre zombie again for 35.7 damage again
Wounded Zombie Status> 1.65 hit points
Hydra Status> 38.4
Everyone attacks hydra again and kills hydra.
Gurth heals everyone up using Charnel Touch.
I disagree.
Of the 6 casters who won, three of them are virtually the same build (Otherworldly, AlterSelf). So really, there are 4 unique builds ... and 3 unique noncasters. So no, the evidence is not strong that casters > noncasters at level 5.
There are currently 6/19 (31%) wins for casters and 3/7 (42%) wins for noncasters.
The PAO rogue is essentially the noncaster version of the three alterself builds.
My Ranger will be the noncaster version of your druid for comparison.
Since Cust Serv is not responding, I will be taking my ranger through tonight ... using only some of the cheese I had been planning. I expect this will be really easy (better BAB, more feats, etc than the druid, same damage from primary form).
Woah. I think that is a rather silly way of "scoring". So if I had made a few alternate log-ins, posted a bunch of crappy non-caster builds then it would have reduced their "score" and proved that casters are more powerful?
You asked for examples of over-powered casters (*points at the thread title*). Big surprise you got a bunch of caster builds, even if they were only halfway thought out. It should not affect the "scoring", if you can call it that. So far only 1 non-caster build has truly "show-cased" the power of the non-caster and that is yours. Bela comes close, but relying so heavily upon the consumable-nova effect reduces the claim that it would be an example of how a character would really be played in a real game. Of course, no one would be "solo" either in a real game, but still that is only 2 really good non-caster builds so far.
I think that at the very least, it should considered a draw, there is not a really good case for non-caster > caster at level 5, given the evidence so far. I think only the number of successful build arch-types should be counted, the number of failed builds mean very little, especially when the poster probably just lost interest or didn't exactly understand the rules and never returned to the thread. I would even say that the large number of attempts at creating over-powered casters indicates that it is easier to think of and attempt to put together a powerful caster build compared to a non-caster.
Also, I cannot believe that the PAO/UMD build is allowed or truly considered a non-caster build. It is just a build that pays a bunch of cash to be able to act like a caster for a little while. I thought it was going to get special mention in a separate category or something ("Commoner buys PAO, owns the world, film at 11!").
No offense meant, but a build that at best squeeks by encounters that the top caster builds are mauling to death in a single round (druid) or defeating with only the expenditure of a charge of faith healing (DMM cleric) is hardly showing the casters to be balanced. If anything it only goes to further the point that caster > non-caster even at level 5.
I have no problem with putting a spot difficulty on it, or listen whatever. But essentially ruling by fiat that it gets supprise and grapple in the first round is bunk. It negates a ton of tricks casters can/do use.
True, it also makes hoses noncasters who don't have Close Quarters Fighting or other similar things.
Listing those as failures is incredibly misleading. ONLY 6/19 CASTERS SUCCEEDED! (the other 13 I objected to).
Lets look at the current list of casters who did not win - and my objections
1) Dread Necromancer ... guy never came back to finish it. Per posted tactics, he dies.
2) Sorcerer ... never fixed. Build is illegal (alter self to change two size categories, uses Protection from Evil to become immune to shadow, etc)
6) Druid + Fleshraker ... cannot compete as listed, metal armor, over spent, cannot have warbeast template on companion, etc
7) Enchanter ... loses to snake + rug
9) Master of Shrouds ... posted says it is incomplete.
10) Warlock ... As posted loses to Wraith and rug, possibly dragon.
11) Cloistered Cleric ... ties vs dragon.
12) Illusionist ... cannot use posted tactics. Has flaws in posted combat (no immediate actions when flatfooted).
13) Evoker ... cannot use posted tactics. Invalid Build (used dragon magazine).
14) Druid. Not examined (first entrant posted). However with an AC of 21 with no real ranged weapons. I do not see how he beats the manticore.
17) Summoning Druid Man: As posted (see my above post) it dies to each encounter.
18) Spook the Summoner: Cannot win as posted.
Which statuses would you change? and why?
That the most powerful builds by far are casters? I would say DMM and both druids blow away the melee by miles. They don't use alter self, let alone finding a high level wizard to cast a spell for them.
Um, actually the DMM Cleric relies upon an incantrix as well as someone to cast Create Tattoos (CL12 or 13), etc ...
How about that there have been a huge variety of casters that have been posted while there have only been a handful of melee that even are strong enough to warrent consideration.
Could be true. Or maybe the thread title "Examples of overpowered casters" attracts more casters?
Sooo, his ranger with a smaller HD that trades his animal companion and spells for 2bab and 2 skills a level is going to be stronger?
Somehow I seriously doubt that.
My 8 sided HD is just as large as your 8 sided HD (if we go by the actual size of the die, well, I buy large dice so that everyone at the table can easily see my rolls).
And no, I do not trade my animal companion or spells away.
Woah. I think that is a rather silly way of "scoring". So if I had made a few alternate log-ins, posted a bunch of crappy non-caster builds then it would have reduced their "score" and proved that casters are more powerful?
Based on this scoring ... then yes. Keep in mind, of the 6 wins listed, 3 of them are virtually identical, but each one counts.
You asked for examples of over-powered casters (*points at the thread title*). Big surprise you got a bunch of caster builds, even if they were only halfway thought out. It should not affect the "scoring", if you can call it that.
How should I do scoring? And why shouldn't the ones who failed (or were incompete) count?
So far only 1 non-caster build has truly "show-cased" the power of the non-caster and that is yours. Bela comes close, but relying so heavily upon the consumable-nova effect reduces the claim that it would be an example of how a character would really be played in a real game. Of course, no one would be "solo" either in a real game, but still that is only 2 really good non-caster builds so far.
The DMM Cleric is up to 4000 gp of expendibles. So, be careful how you discount Bela for using a lot less expendibles ...
I think that at the very least, it should considered a draw, there is not a really good case for non-caster > caster at level 5, given the evidence so far. I think only the number of successful build arch-types should be counted, the number of failed builds mean very little, especially when the poster probably just lost interest or didn't exactly understand the rules and never returned to the thread. I would even say that the large number of attempts at creating over-powered casters indicates that it is easier to think of and attempt to put together a powerful caster build compared to a non-caster.
Or, that people think that casters are overpowered, but in the end, it takes a lot of effort to make one overpowered?
Anyone can pick up the mantle for any of the failed builds and try to get them to succeed.
Also, I cannot believe that the PAO/UMD build is allowed or truly considered a non-caster build. It is just a build that pays a bunch of cash to be able to act like a caster for a little while. I thought it was going to get special mention in a separate category or something ("Commoner buys PAO, owns the world, film at 11!").
Naw, the PAO Man build (I pay for PAO ... for the win) was discounted.
The PAO Rogue basically mimics the 3 or so otherworldly/alter self builds -- if needed I am sure that he could Alter self instead ...
Finklebottom the Enchanter: http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=62782
Finklebottom's Cohort, Sakrith: http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=63418
As I outline in my enchanter handbook, enchanters and cohorts go hand-in-hand (heck, there is even an alternative class feature that gives enchanters a free cohort), so I think it is perfectly fair to use one. She is there primarily as a debuffer (not that thats really needed for this encounter).
On the character sheet I note that Potent Enchantment and a flaw to enable it are optional. WotC approved all Dragon Magazine content for use, and I consider it official. Some don't. Thats why I have it as optional there. It isn't required, and I will provide strategies using it and not using it.
I should mention that a goal for this character was not to use any of the 'broken' spells such as polymorph. These of course are where a caster gets a lot of power and 'god-like' ability ... but they are not at all necessary to be extremely effective.
Onto strategy!
Per the introduction, Finklebottom knows that he is facing a tribe of kobolds in a cave. Taking a 10 for the requisite knowledge skill (Finklebottom has all knowledge skills) should tell him basic things like such as kobolds are weak and usually fight in groups. With that knowledge in mind he has prepared mostly area of effect enchantment spells to deal with large groups of kobolds.
Prepared Spells:
Prepared Spells:
0) Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Resistance. Resistance
1) Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm Person, Charm Person, Sleep, Sleep, Sleep
2) Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Fly, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Rebuke
3) Deep Slumber, Deep Slumber, Elation, Warcry
4) Mass Dream Lock, Mass Dream Lock, Charm Monster
Sakrith prepares 1 casting of Divine Favor.
Marching order is Sakrith first, and then Finklebottom. Finklebottom has his weapon crystal enabled, which throws out bright light for 60 feet, and shadowy illumination for another 60 feet. Sakrith has Darkvision, and Finklebottom has low-light vision, so they effectively have 120 feet of illumination to work with - darkness shouldn't be an issue in the cave. I think the cave has torches anyways, and if this is the case he will just take the crystal out and pocket it, as it won't be needed.
Before they enter the cave Finklebottom casts Resistance on both of them, as a precaution against any kobold traps (Finklebottom figures that the entrance of the cave would be the logical place for the Kobolds to place traps).
Resources used:
2 0 level slots.
Encounter 1
Sakrith marches in, and fails the spot check to notice the shocker lizards. As the shocker lizards are stupid and have been trained to shock any intruder that enters, they shock Sakrith before Finklebottom can get in. The DC for 1/2 damage is 16, and Sakrith has a Ref save of +5 (+6 with resistance). There is a 55% chance of her making the save, so I will assume that she makes it. She takes 12d8 damage (48 average damage, 24 half damage, -5 electricity resistance = 19) and is down to 23. With the surprise round out of the way, combat begins.
Finklebottom has an initiative of +11, and the 6 shocker lizards each have +6. Sakrith has +1. I am still confused on how people are doing cumulative percentage rolls for something like this, but I will assume that Finklebottom goes first.
Finklebottom walks in and casts Deep Slumber. Now, if he has Potent Enchantment it affects 13 HD of creatures. If he doesn't it affects 10 HD. The saving throw is 21, and Shocker Lizards have a will of +1. I think it is safe to assume that all of the lizards fail their throw. I don't know if they fall off the ceiling if they're asleep or not. Sleep has a 10 ft. radius and all of the shocker lizards are within 20 ft. of each other, so sleep should hit every single one of them.
Now, if Finklebottom has Potent Enchantment, every lizard is asleep, and Sakrith if free to coup de grace them. If they don't fall off the ceiling Finklebottom uses his scroll of fly to let Sakrith fly up and kill them all.
If Finklebottom doesn't have Potent Enchantment, then the situation is changed. I am a bit confused as to what would happen, and need some help. 1 lizard is left, and he goes next. Does he get to shock for 12d8 or 2d8 (since all of his companions are asleep?). It is obviously the difference between life and death here - Finklebottom will die from a 12d8 shock.
If Finklebottom dies, he dies. Lets assume he doesn't (only 2d8 of damage). In that case he has a 55% chance of making the save, as does Sakrith. He'll either take an average of 8 damage or 4 damage, and Sakrith will take either 3 or 0 damage. Sakrith goes next. She drops her sword (free action), pulls out her longbow (move action) and fires it (standard action). With a +6 to hit against an AC of 16 she will hit on a 10, or 55% of the time. Finklebottom, who goes after her, ingloriously runs out of the cave.
It is now between the shocker lizard and Sakrith. The shocker lizard has a 45% chance of hitting Sakrith for 3 or 0 damage (depending on whether Sakrith saves), and Sakrith has a 55% chance of hitting the lizard for 4 damage. Sakrith has more HP than the lizard, so Saktrith will eventually win this. After the lizard is disposed of Sakrith will coup de grace the other lizards. Finklebottom will cast fly on her via his scroll if necessary (ie. if they're still sticking to the ceiling).
After combat Sakrith will use her wand of Cure Light Wounds to cure the pair up.
I will assume that they fail their search checks and it takes them 2 hours to find the secret door. Resistance (obviously) goes away.
BTW - if Sakrith fails her first save she is at -1. Finklebottom can give her a potion to bring her back up. It shouldn't change anything.
Sakrith marches in, and fails the spot check to notice the shocker lizards. As the shocker lizards are stupid and have been trained to shock any intruder that enters, they shock Sakrith before Finklebottom can get in. The DC for 1/2 damage is 16, and Sakrith has a Ref save of +5 (+6 with resistance). There is a 55% chance of her making the save, so I will assume that she makes it. She takes 12d8 damage (48 average damage, 24 half damage, -5 electricity resistance = 19) and is down to 23. With the surprise round out of the way, combat begins.
Finklebottom has an initiative of +11, and the 6 shocker lizards each have +6. Sakrith has +1. I am still confused on how people are doing cumulative percentage rolls for something like this, but I will assume that Finklebottom goes first.
Finklebottom walks in and casts Deep Slumber. Now, if he has Potent Enchantment it affects 13 HD of creatures. If he doesn't it affects 10 HD. The saving throw is 21, and Shocker Lizards have a will of +1. I think it is safe to assume that all of the lizards fail their throw. I don't know if they fall off the ceiling if they're asleep or not. Sleep has a 10 ft. radius and all of the shocker lizards are within 20 ft. of each other, so sleep should hit every single one of them.
Now, if Finklebottom has Potent Enchantment, every lizard is asleep, and Sakrith if free to coup de grace them. If they don't fall off the ceiling Finklebottom uses his scroll of fly to let Sakrith fly up and kill them all.
If Finklebottom doesn't have Potent Enchantment, then the situation is changed. I am a bit confused as to what would happen, and need some help. 1 lizard is left, and he goes next. Does he get to shock for 12d8 or 2d8 (since all of his companions are asleep?). It is obviously the difference between life and death here - Finklebottom will die from a 12d8 shock.
If Finklebottom dies, he dies. Lets assume he doesn't (only 2d8 of damage). In that case he has a 55% chance of making the save, as does Sakrith. He'll either take an average of 8 damage or 4 damage, and Sakrith will take either 3 or 0 damage. Sakrith goes next. She drops her sword (free action), pulls out her longbow (move action) and fires it (standard action). With a +6 to hit against an AC of 16 she will hit on a 10, or 55% of the time. Finklebottom, who goes after her, ingloriously runs out of the cave.
It is now between the shocker lizard and Sakrith. The shocker lizard has a 45% chance of hitting Sakrith for 3 or 0 damage (depending on whether Sakrith saves), and Sakrith has a 55% chance of hitting the lizard for 4 damage. Sakrith has more HP than the lizard, so Saktrith will eventually win this. After the lizard is disposed of Sakrith will coup de grace the other lizards. Finklebottom will cast fly on her via his scroll if necessary (ie. if they're still sticking to the ceiling).
After combat Sakrith will use her wand of Cure Light Wounds to cure the pair up.
I will assume that they fail their search checks and it takes them 2 hours to find the secret door. Resistance (obviously) goes away.
BTW - if Sakrith fails her first save she is at -1. Finklebottom can give her a potion to bring her back up. It shouldn't change anything.
True, it also makes hoses noncasters who don't have Close Quarters Fighting or other similar things.
The non-caster is more likely to take cqf, especially after seeing the list of encounters. The non-caster is more likely to have a grapple bonus large enough to escape even if grappled.
That aside, its a dumb encounter.
Lets look at the current list of casters who did not win - and my objections
1) Dread Necromancer ... guy never came back to finish it. Per posted tactics, he dies.
2) Sorcerer ... never fixed. Build is illegal (alter self to change two size categories, uses Protection from Evil to become immune to shadow, etc)
6) Druid + Fleshraker ... cannot compete as listed, metal armor, over spent, cannot have warbeast template on companion, etc
7) Enchanter ... loses to snake + rug
9) Master of Shrouds ... posted says it is incomplete.
10) Warlock ... As posted loses to Wraith and rug, possibly dragon.
11) Cloistered Cleric ... ties vs dragon.
12) Illusionist ... cannot use posted tactics. Has flaws in posted combat (no immediate actions when flatfooted).
13) Evoker ... cannot use posted tactics. Invalid Build (used dragon magazine).
14) Druid. Not examined (first entrant posted). However with an AC of 21 with no real ranged weapons. I do not see how he beats the manticore.
17) Summoning Druid Man: As posted (see my above post) it dies to each encounter.
18) Spook the Summoner: Cannot win as posted.
Which statuses would you change? and why?
2,6,9,13 not legal builds. Either run them broken or don't count them as part of the total. My vote is don't count them because otherwise you're going to see illegal builds with 2 billion gold spent jacking up one win total or the other.
12 Illegal tactics, though skittish nerves I belive CAN be used flatfooted. It doesn't even happen in your first round, it happens during initive.
14 I'm not sure on, but unless it is plain it has no options against the manticore I object to calling it a loss. A druid can use wildshape to beat the manticore easilly without using any spells or items so assuming it loses to the manticore is very risky.
17 wins with smoking bottle tactic posted.
Um, actually the DMM Cleric relies upon an incantrix as well as someone to cast Create Tattoos (CL12 or 13), etc ...
In the CR7 version I believe. I didn't see anything about that in the CR5.
I don't really like using the incantrix, it opens too much up. Hello persistant on a whole bunch of spells, or just massive stacked extends/whatever.
Could be true. Or maybe the thread title "Examples of overpowered casters" attracts more casters?
Could be, that would invalidate your logic for scoring however so be careful with that logic.
My 8 sided HD is just as large as your 8 sided HD (if we go by the actual size of the die, well, I buy large dice so that everyone at the table can easily see my rolls).
And no, I do not trade my animal companion or spells away.
My mistake, I thought rangers went down to d6 when they got more skill points. I hate the class so I don't pay much attention to it.
You certainly do lose spells and animal companion as compared to the druid. The druid has a 8hd fleshraker you have a wimpy warhorse. The druid has bunches of spells up to level 4. You have a single level 1 spell.
So comparing the two you have an advantage in....
Bab (7 vs 5)
Skills (2 skill points per level)
You lose out in...
Animal companion (Level 7 ability vs level 3)
Spells (Full caster progression vs 1 level 1 spell at CL3)
Based on this scoring ... then yes. Keep in mind, of the 6 wins listed, 3 of them are virtually identical, but each one counts.
How should I do scoring? And why shouldn't the ones who failed (or were incompete) count?
Or, that people think that casters are overpowered, but in the end, it takes a lot of effort to make one overpowered?
Anyone can pick up the mantle for any of the failed builds and try to get them to succeed.
The point is that the number of failed builds one way or the other doesn't really mean very much. I think that the number of "over-powered archetypes" that emerge is probably the most important thing.
So far I see for the casters : DMM Cleric, Dino-Druid, Otherworldly/AlterSelf Arcane Caster (not sure if there are truly multiple archetypes here, although with one of them using a reach weapon and melee tactics and the other using pearls of power/spells for offense, they are close to being different enough), Sanctified Runes Man, Ruthaer's Undead Lord (I think he will eventually pass, and yes I think he should start with some undead under his command, that is the whole point of the character class, no way he would make it to 5th level without some undead, you can quibble about the details though). That's 5 or 6 distinct archetypes that have developed so far. Also, I would say that most of the caster builds passed much more easily than the non-casters.
For the non-casters : I only see your Orc and Bela really being distinct builds that demonstrate the power of the "non-caster" (and until very recently, you had not come up with a way for your Orc to pass the manticore).
Anyway, the "score" as I see it, there are more over-powered caster archetypes than there are non-caster ones, and the casters pass the encounters more easily than the non-casters. There is certainly not evidence here that non-casters are more powerful than casters at level 5.
The DMM Cleric is up to 4000 gp of expendibles. So, be careful how you discount Bela for using a lot less expendibles ...
I agree that the DMM cleric is now into the ridiculous range for consumables, however, he started out not needing that many to pass the CR 5 encounters, but has piled them on more as a thought exercise (similar to Bela) to see just how powerful he can become.
Gurth going through Silly with lizards and kobolds
Level 5 Gurth The Deadwalker that this was generated from.
Notes
Notes:
*Dread Necromancers specialize in Necromancy and even get special features for rebuking and crafting undead. The build demonstrates that he is fully capable of getting, killing, and creating the undead that is controlled by him. Fell Animate (and by proxy Animate Dead) have a limit to how many minions he can have, or more specifically how many HD per along with a total limit. His feats are configured to enable him to innately create the undead, and improve the effectiveness of undead that he makes.
Now the build uses 'Fell Animate' to basically obtain 'animate dead' even earlier and without those terrible consumables. It also has Aracane Disciple (Evil) so that he knows how to desecrate areas all by himself.
*Dread Necromancers specialize in Necromancy and even get special features for rebuking and crafting undead. The build demonstrates that he is fully capable of getting, killing, and creating the undead that is controlled by him. Fell Animate (and by proxy Animate Dead) have a limit to how many minions he can have, or more specifically how many HD per along with a total limit. His feats are configured to enable him to innately create the undead, and improve the effectiveness of undead that he makes.
Gaining the ability to cast animate dead is a bit like taking the Leadership feat and acquiring a squadron of followers. Skeletons and zombies can shield a dread necromancer from enemy attacks, open doors and spring traps while she remains a safe distance, and wait on her hand and foot. Dread necromancers always look for opportunities to animate fallen foes of Large or larger size, since they make even more effective combatants.
Now the build uses 'Fell Animate' to basically obtain 'animate dead' even earlier and without those terrible consumables. It also has Aracane Disciple (Evil) so that he knows how to desecrate areas all by himself.
The DMM Cleric is up to 4000 gp of expendibles. So, be careful how you discount Bela for using a lot less expendibles ...
Yeah, and most of my consumables can be found on standard treasure charts (those that can not use PHB formulas and typical low level spells).
I'm not doing things like plucking a celestial creature free of feathers and burning them for random caster level increases followed by drinking some BOVD concoction for further level increases
Generally I clock in at about 2000gp in consumables for the various challenges. It costs him about 500gp to show up, most of the expense being cheap save insurance (antitoxin and remove fear potions) and magic stone oil. I could win most of the encounters I did in without them, but if he's adventuring solo he really can't afford to be failing saves if money can fix that.
The fleshraker druid was doing more than 2000 gp in consumables just to get 2 spells cast on him and his companion. The "create undead" build isn't cheap either. So I rather consider that normal for most solo builds. The exalted explosive runes guy being a rare exception.
One thing you'll see in level 7 Bela is alter self (troglodyte) using wands+hexblade. 90gp for +6 armor lasting 30 minutes and natural attacks and multiattack? Sign me up. (not to mention it gives him a swimming form, a balancing form, some size small forms etc, should a challenge require it). The difference is I didn't make Bela anything goofy. He's a generic PHB human. The polymorph tree is just very broken when applied to a melee chasse. Bela doesn't need +15 AC and size large from a level 2 spell to do decent melee stuff.
The "create undead" build isn't cheap either. So I rather consider that normal for most solo builds. The exalted explosive runes guy being a rare exception.
If you mean Gurth Dead Walker (also been called: Ruthaer's Undead Lord), he is actually very cheap now that he uses Fell Animate. Desecrate can cost for materials but it isn't too bad. Been doing these edits to try and fit with what I think the rules are.
The fleshraker druid was doing more than 2000 gp in consumables just to get 2 spells cast on him and his companion. The "create undead" build isn't cheap either. So I rather consider that normal for most solo builds. The exalted explosive runes guy being a rare exception.
Origionally the druid spent 2200 on a couple suits of armor and 0 on consumables. I went to consumable use because Meyer kept arguing stupid little points and claiming it made me lose. With consumable use it takes such incredibly twisted logic to even consider the set of encounters a threat that its impossible to claim the druid loses for any reason.
I'll start off with near 0 consumable use with CR7 again. Its just that its hard to argue with a large fleshraker with venomfire, 30+ strength, dr10, effective ac ~39 etc. At that point its blatantly obvious its going to rip anything in its CR range to shreds without any further help from the druid or anyone else.
Roughly half of the people in the boards that claim that casters are the pwnrz do so because they misread or/and twist RAW.
The druid with metal armor being a good example. A druid who wears metal armor loses ALL his cool powers. So, if this was a game, saying that your druid would put on metal armor and then enter the cave filled with monsters will result in a dea druid.
Casters have more options. But options don't mean only more power. They also mean a bigger chance to mess up and end up doing something completely useless in your round. Here you have hours or days to prepare your steps. In a game I doubt anyone will give you that much time to make your battle decisions.
Thus, if a player can't even bother to properly present his battle strategy here, how would he fare into a game?
DM: Ok, you meet a dragon.
Druid:I go there and use my amazing powers to smite him down.
DM:Hmm, could you be a little more specific?
Druid:Hey, I'm a druid, everything I do is amazing. The dragon has no chance to win. Just hand over the treasure.
DM:Ok, your character walks over the dragon and makes an untrained perform:comedy check. Dragon's turn, he full attacks and tears you to shreds.
Druid:WHAT? That is so unfair! I could have summoned a giant monster or have sent my animal companion or shapechanged on something uber!
DM:Yes you could. But you didn't bother to do so. Fighter, your turn!
Fighter:Ok, I spur my mount and make a spirited charge with power attack at max after using my belt of battle to grant me an extra standard action to drink a potion of true strike.
Dm:roll, roll, good job, you felled the dragon
I submit 8784357438738345 identical fighter builds that all take Imp Critical and spend 10gp more than allowed.
Now 1/8784357438738363 melee builds have succeeded and 6/19 caster builds have succeed! OMG ITS A BLOWOUT!
Do you see why this logic is retarded?
EDIT: Also all that druid needs to do to keep his powers while in metal armor is worship Mieliki.
I do cold damage in two ways.
It is therefore 100% logic to change one of the cold damages, because dealing multiple energy types is bad, given immunities.
It makes more sense to change the axe, given that it is more powerful, and I can choose a rarer energy immunity than cold for it.
It also makes more sense to change the axe, since it is already being worked on. Simplicities sake.
As for choosing the specific energy type as lightning, there are numerous creatures that my cleric would know of, as enemies, that are fire/cold immune.
That is clear, simple, optimization, and clear, simple reasoning.
Regarding rebuilding:
The reason I've changed the character is because I have recently spent time combing over my 30ish books. When I first posted the cleric, I had some ideas, but I didn't know what is truly optimal. Now I do, and am out of books otherwise, so there are not going to be any more changes.
See, now that looks like an excuse to just use "I kill it, but I don't bother following the rules or using the numbers" to readers. Just use the correct rules and don't be dismissive of people pointing out the correct way. Do you really want later builds to do the same thing? Didn't think so.
I mean that as a 'this is the correct rule so nobody else gets the wrong impression, and you're using the monster correctly'. In the end, it didn't matter, but that's a **** poor excuse not to do it correctly.
I did the numbers most tediously - there was one mistake about how swarms work, but it would change iterative numbers through the rest of the build. However, even if I went through and took the significant amount of time to change all the numbers, the character would still play out in the same way, with the same victories. That is what I meant by this. And I apologize for not knowing all the rules about swarms; I looked up the creature in the MM3, I saw base attack +5, and used it.
Regarding the Purchase of Consumables/Support:
My build uses a lot of caster based powers (special components, Alchemical Increases to caster level) that melee characters do not get access to. Argaud, you seem to be missing the difference between buying a caster-based power that anyone has access to, and buying a caster-based power for casters. Both prove the power and versatility of casters.
How does the incantrix help? I mean, I understand that they are assisting in the casting of the spell ... but ... how do they assist? Wouldn't this be a cooperative spellcasting thing (feat). I know that characters can cooperate to make magic items, i just wasn't aware that spellcasting worked this way as well. Or is it an incantrix thing? (sorry for my lack of knowledge on this).
Incantatrix gain the ability to apply metamagic to allies spells. I'm paying to get an incantatrix to do this. They can gain this ability at level 7, and it is highly powerful.
Changing the build to beat an encounter is metagaming. I assume that you are talking about enhancing your character's options instead of changing it to beat a specific encounter.
Well, I'll be honest, basically, no. I'd like nothing more than some obscure variant that would let me beat that encounter. That being said, I can't take anything away, because then I'd have to A) Re-run the numbers, and B) Might lose versatility and be defeated in a different place. I'm looking for something small that can add a little versatility without taking any, so I can beat even more encounters, and ones that involve reach...but I doubt it exists.
Ikeren,
The issue is that per PhB, spellcasting is a commodity, just like hirelings, or a sword.
Both the PAO rogue and your character rely upon spellcasting from others for the win. In neither case is it showcasing the strength of your class by itself, but rather, what it can do with assistance from an outside source. Which, per rules is legal.
Ahhh, but the point is, the outside source is a spellcaster :D
But to recap, if a noncaster can simulate the overpoweredness of a caster with a minor expenditure of cash, then the spells are overpowered, not the caster. If a noncaster does not need to simulate a caster's role (i.e. no PAO) and performs similarly, then the caster is not overpowered.
That is some of the weirdest logic I have ever heard.
Casters get spells, they are very powerful.
Other people can by those spells.
Therefore, those spells are less powerful, because they are in others hands
Actually, on days that there is no fight, he is still working on keeping his buffs intact (extended spells). Additionally, to be as buff as his character is, he needs to spend a ton of gold. (I think the last posted amount was about $4000) Which means that normally, the character will not be as awesome as what is posted. (But, for purposes of this discussion it is exactly as overpowered as posted). Also, I am unsure how many spell slots/turn attempts he has open, which severely reduces the amount of out-of-combat stuff he can do.
He also only has 1 skill point/level.
The 4000 gold expenditure is for when the cleric is planning to walk into dragon's lairs and other inanely stupid (intelligent 6) solo endeavours. On normal crafting days, I wouldn't do any buffing, because I would be sitting in a city, reading or praying or crafting.
Also, I can get +20 to all skill checks (I demonstrated how in the crafting section). Where take 10 is available, a 30 check is quite high. If not, it's an average roll of 30 anyways.
However, you are correct that on the single day before missions, I would be buffing and preparing.
Which build is non-standard? My character I can EASILY see being played in a campaign I am in (I love playing multiclass charactes).
I've seen many DM's less willing to allow it. Any build that is Class 1/PRC 1/PRC 2, 5/10/5 or 5/5/10 is simple and solid. Class 20 is even easier to get accepted. 4 classes in 5 levels? A little harder to less dip-friendly DM's.
This character could make it through the CR 5 dungeons without expendables (and did in the original incarnation). Expendables become important when trying to defeat CR 6 and 7 encounters.
Again: 4000 gp of consumables is Only so I can consistently beat CR 6 and 7 encounters. I want to see you guys build melee characters that can defeat the CR 6 and 7 encounters, and see how many consumables you use? Thanks.
I challenge every last person here to do the kobold encounter next. Even with 9000 gp of expendibles, will you be able to do it?
I don't really like using the incantrix, it opens too much up. Hello persistant on a whole bunch of spells, or just massive stacked extends/whatever.
That's cause it's overpowered :D!
(I did pay for the things. Persist is a 6th level spell adjustment, and the min CL is 7 for an incantatrix, so it is a minimum of 420 gp.)
I'm not doing things like plucking a celestial creature free of feathers and burning them for random caster level increases followed by drinking some BOVD concoction for further level increases
All those items are legally printed in WotC books and contribute to the over-poweredness of casters.
So yeah, complain and whine about consumables already, but so far, I am the only person to succeed against the CR 7 Kobold encounter, and the only person to take the ghoul glyph on solo, sitting there and absorbing CDG after CDG. Come on melee's, Bring it. Let's see it Meyer's, Run the CR 7 kobold encounter! Do it! I dare you to!
Heck, if I don't see melee's making the same effort I am soon, I'll start running them myself! I bet they'll come up way short when it comes to spell-stored bolts with fireball.
A lot of posters have never completed their builds.
I'd hope those builds -- or the ones that have illegalities pointed out and haven't been fixed -- aren't being counted as either wins or losses. You would too, right?
Cos I find it hard to believe anyone would attempt to count those as a loss.
Which is why if you look at the scoring, it shows numbers for
Wins,
Almost Wins,
Losses
Incomplete.
When the number 6/19 gets tossed out ... it means "Out of the 19 caster builds posted to attempt dungeon 1, 6 passed it completely". It does not mean "13 out of 19 casters lost".
Which is why if you look at the scoring, it shows numbers for
Wins,
Almost Wins,
Losses
Incomplete.
Then you should state it that way every single time. By saying 6/19 casters pass, you know that it helps make it look like 13 failed to pass the encounter(s). And to claim otherwise is to admit that your intellectually incapable of making the caster/non-caster judgement at all. I doubt that, and I would wager many other people also believe that you're not that unintelligent either.
It's similar to going to the other thread (on Classes and Prestige Classes board) and making statements like...
"Quite honestly, given his posting in the Ops board, and the general response to the challenge that he laid out, we should have gotten reams of great caster builds that outdo melee.
Instead, most builds don't fare much better than a generic fighter. This is actually interesting, as casters did have enough power to perform up to par, rather than be sub-par as some folks predicted"...
with no mention or admission that the quest was specifically limited to 5th level only.
Starting out at level 2 with the CR 2 gauntlet.
Character Wizard (Transmuter Evocation + Enchantment banned) Level 2:
Stats:
Str: 14
Con: 13
Dex: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 15
Chr: 8
Hitpoints: 9 (The weakness!)
Feats:
Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Octopus Familiar.
Brawler Trait
Spells: Babau Slime
Colour Spray x 2
Enlarge Person
Equipment: I've got 900 gps but haven;t really thought about it. 1 potion of CLW? and a dagger (fist based beatdown can work instead), and the hardest hitting simple weapon - a longspear
Skills: Spot 2.5
Listen 2.5
Concentration 5
Spellcraft 5
Okay the really important thing is that my grapple bonus is HUGE. +3 Octopus +4 improved grapple +1 brawler +1 BAB, +2 strength for a total of +11 before enlarge person.
General tactic: Buff up and grapple it right in the face, then pin it, then use light weapon based beatdown to victory. If grappling is ill advised or just impossible (like that blink dog) fall back to the best spell in the game - colour spray.
Blink Dog: The hardest fight ever, assuming we don't surprise each other, my best plan is ready colour spray. Depending on how you read blink I've got a 50% chance stun the dog for dog for 2 or 3.5 rounds. Either way I then Coup de grace the **** out of it and probably kill it (two 50% chances to hit, if I do hit it needs to pass a DC 29ish fort save or die, which it won't), if I miss I just colour spray it on my turn after taking a hit like a manly man (which I'll probably survive) - greater than 50% win chance, probably win. Then I scull a CLW or something. Probable win. This is close though, it wouldn't take much bad luck for me to flub both colour sprays or the coup de graces and die. However, on my side the rest of this adventure is easy mode compared to this bugger.
Dire baddddddggggger!
I cast enlarge person, babau slime and grapple him up. As my grapple bonus is +16 and his is +6 I just put him in a pin and wait for babau slime to kill it, and stabbinate it with my knife or its own claws in the mean time. Certain win.
Now I go rest, because I'm out of spellllllls. Bloody blink dog. Easily the hardest fight here.
Choker: Not that I really need to rest because compared to me a choker is made of lose and fail. I beat it in a grapple and pwn it by stabbination, but if it doesn't do that and instead tries to beat me down in melee (much more effective) I colour spray it in the face, then coup de grace it. Certain win.
Rug: It's like the choker except I still have a bigger grapple bonus (+9 more!) and can totally cast enlarge person if I spot it first. Or just try the concentration check and cast babau slime in which case it looses really, really badly. Probable win, just because if I don't consistently beat it in a grapple it can one shot me. But if we both roll nothing but 10s I clean its clock.
The dragon: With a -5 grapple mod, if I cast enlarge person it cannot ever break the grapple. Ever. So I win. Automatically. Unless it gets really lucky and one shots me, but my init mod is (slightly) bigger. I can also colour spray its face. Really it has no hope at all what so ever.
Observable lessons: Colour spray is made of win and awesome, and I think the high number of grapple tastic encounters is supposed to punish wizards, but really just makes grapple mancer better.
Edit: I'm looking at that locust swarm and thinking two things: No way in hell that is a CR 3 encounter, and second, how the heck do I beat that? Colour spraying it won;'t work, and stupidly babau slime on works on things I grapple and even if it did it takes 5 rounds to kill the swarm which kills me in 2. Hrm.
Regarding this discussion of metagaming:
I do cold damage in two ways.
It is therefore 100% logic to change one of the cold damages, because dealing multiple energy types is bad, given immunities.
It makes more sense to change the axe, given that it is more powerful, and I can choose a rarer energy immunity than cold for it.
It also makes more sense to change the axe, since it is already being worked on. Simplicities sake.
As for choosing the specific energy type as lightning, there are numerous creatures that my cleric would know of, as enemies, that are fire/cold immune.
That is clear, simple, optimization, and clear, simple reasoning.
Accepted. I have no objection. You (of course) understand the need for the question though.
Regarding rebuilding:
The reason I've changed the character is because I have recently spent time combing over my 30ish books. When I first posted the cleric, I had some ideas, but I didn't know what is truly optimal. Now I do, and am out of books otherwise, so there are not going to be any more changes.
Cool.
Regarding the Purchase of Consumables/Support:
My build uses a lot of caster based powers (special components, Alchemical Increases to caster level) that melee characters do not get access to. Argaud, you seem to be missing the difference between buying a caster-based power that anyone has access to, and buying a caster-based power for casters. Both prove the power and versatility of casters.
This is where the casters vs noncasters disagree. It is a fundamental difference in looking at things.
Noncasters see the PHB list of services (which include spellcasting), see the list of magic items in the DMG, and their pocketbook. They look in the DMG where it says that gear is part of the character. And they come to the conclusion that HOW the noncaster gets its power is irrelevant, in the end, the character they are playing (noncaster based on classes) is powerful.
Casters see the source of the power (spells/magic) as being under their control. Without casters, there is no magic. So any attempt to use magic proves the power of casters.
Both are right ... and both are wrong.
Incantatrix gain the ability to apply metamagic to allies spells. I'm paying to get an incantatrix to do this. They can gain this ability at level 7, and it is highly powerful.
Thank you.
I've seen many DM's less willing to allow it. Any build that is Class 1/PRC 1/PRC 2, 5/10/5 or 5/5/10 is simple and solid. Class 20 is even easier to get accepted. 4 classes in 5 levels? A little harder to less dip-friendly DM's.
Are you seriously saying that DMs would have more issue accepting my character than your current build?
This character could make it through the CR 5 dungeons without expendables (and did in the original incarnation). Expendables become important when trying to defeat CR 6 and 7 encounters.
Except ... since you do not know the CR of the dungeon before entering, you need to do the same level of prep work (except for things like energy resistance acid vs death ward (for the crypt)).
Again: 4000 gp of consumables is Only so I can consistently beat CR 6 and 7 encounters. I want to see you guys build melee characters that can defeat the CR 6 and 7 encounters, and see how many consumables you use? Thanks.
My build beat the CR6 crypt of creepiness encounter (except for the vampire at the end, and even that was close). With ... 50gp of expendables. With the same build (minor change to keep it legal) I posted for the CR2 adventure. Swapping out one potion of enlarge person for a protection from evil potion would have given me the win. Thats 100gp of expendables.
I challenge every last person here to do the kobold encounter next. Even with 9000 gp of expendibles, will you be able to do it?
Ok ... I will attempt it ... as posted. (I listed it as "Silly" for a reason) No change to my build.
So yeah, complain and whine about consumables already, but so far, I am the only person to succeed against the CR 7 Kobold encounter, and the only person to take the ghoul glyph on solo, sitting there and absorbing CDG after CDG. Come on melee's, Bring it. Let's see it Meyer's, Run the CR 7 kobold encounter! Do it! I dare you to!
Actually, the extra-planar one looks harder than the Kobold one.
Heck, if I don't see melee's making the same effort I am soon, I'll start running them myself! I bet they'll come up way short when it comes to spell-stored bolts with fireball.
Please don't. It will be a waste of time. Or rather, it would be more beneficial to run some of the other spellcasters through. We would like to see their versatility. The PAO rogue has already said he was planning on running through a couple more of these encounters, and Bela has done several as well.
Except ... since you do not know the CR of the dungeon before entering, you need to do the same level of prep work (except for things like energy resistance acid vs death ward (for the crypt)).
True, but I know that it is going to be dangerous, and give me more profit than my payout every time. Again, for CR 5 challenges, this puts me 1000 gp below my level 6 amount, CR 6, 1000 gp above, and CR 7, 3000 gp above. I am not having any trouble staying well above gold piece averages per level.
Are you seriously saying that DMs would have more issue accepting my character than your current build?
Hahaha, not a chance. But I am saying it is easier to respond to the question "So, what are you thinking of playing?" from the DM with "Ah, was thinking straight cleric." than "How does Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1 sound?"
Actually, the extra-planar one looks harder than the Kobold one.
Yeah, do them all! Let's see the successes come rolling in?
And since this cleric has been able to do everything but the CR 6 Tauric Monster of Legend, I think we should start pulling out CR 8 and 9 encounters, too. Up for the challenge?
And while I have absolute respect for solbergb, Bela, and the way he is doing things, I think he is accurately demonstrating the power of melee characters, that of capability for a number of things, but incapability in other cases (Ghoul Glyph, Spellstored Fireballs, and Shocking Lizards) that usually revolve energy damage and auto-hits - places where casters have better opportunities to defend themselves.
Looks good ... no need to worry about losing init, your init bonus is huge compared to it.
I'm trying to make a character that is the least overpowered, overpowered character here. I want to use the least ammount of rules that this challenge sets forth in my favor to win. You'll notice that the build can easily be moved over into core only and doesn't require any special optional rules like flaws. Sometimes this may involve showing when even while I have a vast statistical advantage in a certain circumstance that even when I lose I still win. Hey, we all roll ones now and again and its nice when our charcter dont necessarily die.
Research is good and something I relish seeing. How are you speaking with the hawk, do you know infernal (or whatever).
You know while I see that with a 3 INT the hawk has human like intelligence and I believe know one language. However I can't find any languages it already knows. If this is a problem I can swap a few skill points around to learn anything I need.
You cannot use the bedroll to renew your spells more than once a day.
You know I was sure you could. which is why I thought the item was the amazing thing people said it was. after reading the rules closely I'm not too impressed and would drop it for more spells known. not that theres anything I need to know. I will make adjustments to the post indicating how this increases my run through time and how it may change my spells memorized list.
But invisibility/remove scent/false life should make you impervious to everything here for scouting purposes.
that would require metagaming as the only truely safe way of knowing if thats true is to send the hawk in before me. It also lets me know what spells to prepare before I reach the encounter and rarely does anything surprise me.
Not a problem, there is no time limit. Just indicate how many days you spend researching the cave.
the actual research only involves a minuite or two at the most. the hawk only last like 5 rounds. if it dies then we know what killed it. if on its trip through the cave it sees an inhabitant then we know what to expect. if it is unable to go any further because the duration ran out or it got eaten then we go to the spot and try again. If it appears that this short duration is preventing me from being effective at this tactic then we can extend the summon monster for twice the duration. after all its moving about 120 feet a turn with a double move.
Solid tactics ... run and try again.
Yeah its not my proudest moment for this character but it works.
Two things:
Look like you can pass this mini-adventure, (just list how many days it takes you) ...
It looks like your tactics are basically: Nova and rest.
I will make the requested changes and then I have finished and will post tomorrow the CR 6 hydra cave which should be followed soon by runing the CR 7 encounter.
A quick question: the planar adventure doesn't say I can't directly however it has been said that any attempts to sleep will be met by being rudely awakened by one of the encounters. Am I allowed to sleep inside the rope trick to avoid this?
Im going to sleep now.
Also, I cannot believe that the PAO/UMD build is allowed or truly considered a non-caster build. It is just a build that pays a bunch of cash to be able to act like a caster for a little while. I thought it was going to get special mention in a separate category or something ("Commoner buys PAO, owns the world, film at 11!").
It is clearly a non-caster, since rogues have no spellcaster abilities or CL at all. It is a non-caster that uses magic items, which is something all PCs can do.
Moreover it is a non-caster that was posted after all casters went to the gauntlet using polymorph types spells. And showed that polymorph is easily applicable and stronger for non-casters.
After that I find interesting the new posts avoid polymorph cheese (except the druid, of course, which is half-powered through polymorph cheese).
Finally, the rogue spent 300 gold in defeating 5 CR5 encounters (giving ~7500 gold) which is negligible. He spent less cash than most casters.
Incantatrix gain the ability to apply metamagic to allies spells. I'm paying to get an incantatrix to do this. They can gain this ability at level 7, and it is highly powerful.
It is, and it is a way anyone will have day-long spells very cheaply. Expect my next meleer to have a dozen persistent spells cast by mercenary incantatix at negligible cost :D
The reason he picked level 5 was because the earlier posters claimed that casters were vastly superior to non-casters even at level 1. So far the statement has proven to be false, since massive cheeze is availeble to both casters and non-caster, and so far the only character that has been shown (in my eyes) as trully overpowered is the DMM cleric.
Actually it has been shown the possibility of overpoweredness, if they survive the opening round. The initiative check skews things allot.
As it is a 1st level caster can manage 4d6 damage in a 45 foot cone or 60 foot line with a Reflex save for half once per day. That doesn't include the extra combat stopper spells that they have access to at 1st.
one flaw
dragonblood sorcerer substitution level
precious spellcaster
draconic heritage
draconic breath
Undead minions can be made during the adventure. My objection is to starting out with minions.
The dread necromancer is from Heroes of Horror page 84. Creating undead is a big part of the power of that class. A 8th they get Undead Mastery that gives undead that they make big bonus and increases the amount that they can control considerably.
The issue is starting with undead minions. Druid starts with an animal companion as it is a class ability. Undead minions are not a class ability of the class he posted. Which is why he cannot start with any. This objection was posted prior to him posting any fights and part of my objection was quoted and acted upon.
Actually the ability to both create and control undead are class abilities for dread necromancer.
Incantatrix Co-Operative Metamagic.
Energy Substitution: Electricity for my Ice Axe Spell: 0th level * CL 7 = 35 gp.
Maximize Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 3rd level effect * CL 7 = 210 gp.
Empower Spell for Ice Axe Spell: Applying a 2nd level effect * CL 7 = 140 gp.
Hmm, I think you worked this out to be cheaper than it is supposed to be...
I assume that this piece from the FAQ for divine metamagic applies to the incantrix co-operative metamagic as well:
Can you use the Divine Metamagic feat to create a scroll
or wand with the metamagic effect without changing the
spell level? If so, how much would it cost to make?
You can use Divine Metamagic in item creation; the cost to
create the item is just as if you used the regular metamagic feat.
For instance, using your Divine Metamagic feat to create a
scroll of empowered flame strike costs as much as a scroll of a
7th-level spell (which is what an empowered flame strike is).
The act of creating the scroll or wand expends three daily uses
of your turn/rebuke undead ability, just as if you had cast the
empowered flame strike spell using Divine Metamagic, but you
don’t have to expend a 7th-level spell slot (only the normal,
5th-level flame strike).
I think the costs are wrong for this on the DMM Persist cleric build, and since this looks pivotal to the build it probably needs to be fixed. Am I misreading or interpreting this wrong?
EDIT: ah read another post and if I understand correctly, you are hiring some incantrixes to cast these spells for you. Interesting. Thought people had issues with this because I was doing similar things previously. Guess this really isn't an indication of how good the build is and rather how good the people that are hired are. Same reason Gurth ended up taking Fell Animate and what not, so that it was really more about the build, and not the money spent on other casters to make him better. To each his own I guess. Looks like all the builds could hire a cleric with divine metamagic to persist 'Favorable Sacrifice' for them.
I'd hope those builds -- or the ones that have illegalities pointed out and haven't been fixed -- aren't being counted as either wins or losses. You would too, right?
Cos I find it hard to believe anyone would attempt to count those as a loss.
In that case the noncasters deserve the same consideration. This means only Meyer, Solberg, Clawhound and me have posted full builds, and Clawhound did a non-optimized fighter just to show he comes close to beating the encounters without really trying (e.i. it was built to fail).
Thaumaturgist's build is ilegal, ReaderOfPosts has a fun earthgliding supermount that really wins all for him by allowing him to attack from under earth. The second of Meyer's characters abuses cheapened buffs, and they can even be abused more by using sanctum spells and incantatrix. I suspect we can have level 10 spells at the cost of level 3 spells in magic-mart. I find that ridiculous in extreme, but it was done by Ikeren for a caster build, and if Meyer allows it, well...
Classes with more hp, better combat abilities and more feats make a stronger base frame for crazy buffs, so this will benefit non-casters far more than casters.
Then you should state it that way every single time. By saying 6/19 casters pass, you know that it helps make it look like 13 failed to pass the encounter(s). And to claim otherwise is to admit that your intellectually incapable of making the caster/non-caster judgement at all. I doubt that, and I would wager many other people also believe that you're not that unintelligent either.
um ...
What is the state of the 13 who were submitted but are not part of the 6?
Did they completely pass the encounter? Which ones would you consider fails?
It's similar to going to the other thread (on Classes and Prestige Classes board) and making statements like...
"Quite honestly, given his posting in the Ops board, and the general response to the challenge that he laid out, we should have gotten reams of great caster builds that outdo melee.
Instead, most builds don't fare much better than a generic fighter. This is actually interesting, as casters did have enough power to perform up to par, rather than be sub-par as some folks predicted"...
with no mention or admission that the quest was specifically limited to 5th level only.
That, you cannot lay on me ... however, in his defense, in this thread's sister thread people say things like "take a look at the char opt board to learn how over powered casters are". So I am unsure how unfair it is ... especially since the base comment made, is that casters are underpowered compared to noncasters before level 7. However, you are correct that if people are not following the thread and only read the last page or so, that they would miss that, so in that aspect, it is misleading.
True, but I know that it is going to be dangerous, and give me more profit than my payout every time. Again, for CR 5 challenges, this puts me 1000 gp below my level 6 amount, CR 6, 1000 gp above, and CR 7, 3000 gp above. I am not having any trouble staying well above gold piece averages per level.
Kind of ... between your character and my character. If the DM tosses CR5s or some of the CR6s ... my character begins to pull ahead of your character in money very quickly.
Certain CR6 and CR7 encounters (where I would die), you pull ahead of my character ...
Hahaha, not a chance. But I am saying it is easier to respond to the question "So, what are you thinking of playing?" from the DM with "Ah, was thinking straight cleric." than "How does Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1 sound?"
Grin ... I have had DMs look askance at me for bringing that sort of PC to the table, however, since they watch me gain new classes when I level, it's not like they are caught by surprise.
Oh, and if I was the DM and you responded "Ah, was thinking straight cleric" and you brought the DMM Cleric to the table, I would probably have a talk with you to see how outrageous you were going to be ... and if you were planning on going for broke, you would need to reconsider. Unless everyone else in the party was going for similarly overpowered classes. As when the power disparity is that large, then PCs die way too fast, or the most powerful character is not challenged. I would do the same thing for a fighter who is planning on spending all his feats on improved toughness ... he needs to change his characted concept (unless that fits in well with the rest of the team).
Yeah, do them all! Let's see the successes come rolling in?
And since this cleric has been able to do everything but the CR 6 Tauric Monster of Legend, I think we should start pulling out CR 8 and 9 encounters, too. Up for the challenge?
I think things would be better served either add some more builds (casters and noncasters) to the mix ...
And while I have absolute respect for solbergb, Bela, and the way he is doing things, I think he is accurately demonstrating the power of melee characters, that of capability for a number of things, but incapability in other cases (Ghoul Glyph, Spellstored Fireballs, and Shocking Lizards) that usually revolve energy damage and auto-hits - places where casters have better opportunities to defend themselves.
In a team (party) environment, things like ghoul glyph or elemental damage are not as hard to recover from as in a solo environment.
CR 7 encounters?
Well, the MM3 CR 6 encounters certainly qualify for normal CR 7 encounters.
I believe the lack of noncaster builds is a direct result of noncasters doing better so far. Noncasters have shown much higher survivability and much less need for tweaking. In fact, I expected more out of low-to-mid level casters.
Your cleric, who persists 1 or 2 rounds duration spells (like your DR) the designers of DnD never forsaw persisted, is powerful, but he hasn't accomplished anything noncasters can't yet.
I'm starting on a build, although I may not be able to complete it before Jan. I won't be using any Polymorph cheese, nor I would bother to buy and boost a magebred mount that can be nearly as useful as the druid dino.
Deep Dwarf
barbarian 1/fighter 2/ranger 1/swordsage 1
Str 15+1(4th) Dex 12 Con 14+2(race) Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 8-2(race)
hp 12+5.5+5.5+4.5+4.5+15=47
fort +10(13) ref +5(8) will +3(6)
variant: whirling frenzy
feats
1st:aberrant dragonmark:shield
flaw1:mark of madness
flaw2:mark of xoriat
3rd:extra rage
fighter1:combat reflexes
fighter2:close-quarters fighting
ranger1:track
swordsage1: weapon focus, probably stone dragon
skills
probably craft(armor)
equipment
bunch of normal weapons and shields, cheap nonmagic vitals like shaders
probably mwk greatsword
full plate(self-crafted) with mwk tools
antitoxin
wand of resist energy (CL 7), 10 charges 1050gp
wand of delay poison (CL 1), 10 charges 150gp
wand of cure light wounds (CL 1) 30 charges 450gp
maneuvers known: probably burning blade, burning brand, fire riposte, rabid wolf strike, shadow blade technique, mountain hammer
stances known: probably step of the wind and stance of clarity
standard buffing: resist all five energy types (525gp), delay poison(15gp) (durations of at least 1 hour)
So, how will this build do in the planar encounter starting right now?
the Forest trolls surprise my 22 ff AC (tower shield), maybe a jav hits, maybe it manages to overcome my permanent 5/byesh DR, but the poison is delayed. The fight starts, dwarf giant dodge kicks in, vs a shield+onehanded the trolls land on 20 or so, and they barely overcome the DR. It's painfully slow, but maneuvers let me kill the first troll and then I can switch to greatsword and stance of clarity to finish the second troll faster. Heal a bit with wand.
the Chraal breathes 3 times vs cold resist 20, doing a few points of damage. Then I use step of the wind and fire to kill it, running away to heal if needed (doubtful).
the Dread Blossoms surprise me and are faster than me, so it's nausea check every turn (easy) and 2 damage. Poison is delayed. They die in flames soon enough.
the Boneclaw is problematic. It's clear I'm going to use my first frenzy for the day, stance of clarity too, but even so it's a pitched battle. Will run it when my character is completed, and after that the final boss.
PS. drink antitoxin after the adventure and save v. poisons on 2 or higher.
To fix the 'absurd self buffing' routines, why not just add a dispel magic trap half way through, it makes things harder for the buff layering wizards and the non casters shopping for buffs.
One of the issues with this, is that even with a targetting dispel magic, for it to be level appropriate (CL 7 or so at CR5) most of the buffs will not be able to be dispelled (on average) as PAO has a CL of 15+, most of the DMM Cleric's CL is 10+, etc ... potions and scrolls would be what is dispelled.
The second of Meyer's characters abuses cheapened buffs, and they can even be abused more by using sanctum spells and incantatrix.
I object!! I think that my second character abuses more than just cheapened buffs!!! I am in fleshraker form after all!!!
I suspect we can have level 10 spells at the cost of level 3 spells in magic-mart. I find that ridiculous in extreme, but it was done by Ikeren for a caster build, and if Meyer allows it, well...
How can I disallow it? PHB allows spellcasting services. Now, the easiest way to disallow these things would be for the mini-adventure to be placed 2+ days from the nearest large city (smaller cities do not have the population to support an NPC of high enough level to cast the spells the posters are asking for). But I cannot make any changes to the mini-adventures (conflict of interest).
I believe the lack of noncaster builds is a direct result of noncasters doing better so far. Noncasters have shown much higher survivability and much less need for tweaking. In fact, I expected more out of low-to-mid level casters.
The other thing is that noncasters are usually less complicated, so there is less aspects of the character to examine. This might be part of the reason why there are less tweaks for noncasters (I needed to make some for legality myself)
Your cleric, who persists 1 or 2 rounds duration spells (like your DR) the designers of DnD never forsaw persisted, is powerful, but he hasn't accomplished anything noncasters can't yet.
Persist has been out since 3.0, published in an early 3.5 complete book.
The DR spell came out over 2 years after the DMM Persist chasis was out ... so I disagree that this is something WoTC never foresaw.
I'm starting on a build, although I may not be able to complete it before Jan. I won't be using any Polymorph cheese, nor I would bother to buy and boost a magebred mount that can be nearly as useful as the druid dino.
I assume this is the skeleton for your build. I will add this to post 1 as a noncaster. (This will be shown as a noncaster in incomplete status) Remember, you need to be able to defeat the CR5 for initial scoring, soon I will be updating the initial post to show scoring per mini-adventure.
Another intresting proposition, is that if we are buying high level spells, why don't we just bust out the crazy? I'll buy planar binding and I'm on the wish for wishes gravy train, and thats cheaper than PaO too boot.
Persist has been out since 3.0, published in an early 3.5 complete book.
The DR spell came out over 2 years after the DMM Persist chasis was out ... so I disagree that this is something WoTC never foresaw.
I bet five bucks the guy who designed the DR spell had no idea what DMM Persist is.
I assume this is the skeleton for your build. I will add this to post 1 as a noncaster. (This will be shown as a noncaster in incomplete status) Remember, you need to be able to defeat the CR5 for initial scoring, soon I will be updating the initial post to show scoring per mini-adventure.
Sure thing. Right now I can say the Manticore has no chance between the dwarf's DR and AC. I need to run the snake and the rug to see their chances to grapple thru close-quarters. The wraith is not a problem with its low damage and Fort DC, but I need to include some anti-incorporeal equipment like magic oil. Black dragon dies easily v. acid resist and DR.
Even if it only has a 25% chance of taking out each spell, many of the characters here are layering buffs so you'll hit something.
Another intresting proposition, is that if we are buying high level spells, why don't we just bust out the crazy? I'll buy planar binding and I'm on the wish for wishes gravy train, and thats cheaper than PaO too boot.
Wish for Wishes is pun-pun ... which is not legal.
Even if it only has a 25% chance of taking out each spell, many of the characters here are layering buffs so you'll hit something.
Another intresting proposition, is that if we are buying high level spells, why don't we just bust out the crazy? I'll buy planar binding and I'm on the wish for wishes gravy train, and thats cheaper than PaO too boot.
I prefer not to go there. All classes have access to high level spells items via caster checks or UMD checks, and it won't prove anything.
And there are the martial scrolls too. Their wording is so vague it seems they don't follow the martial maneuvers requirements, so using them is like using high level spells scrolls with guaranteed success.
It is, and it is a way anyone will have day-long spells very cheaply. Expect my next meleer to have a dozen persistent spells cast by mercenary incantatix at negligible cost :D
Im so confused. First you're emphatically, definitely, positively not a spellcaster, youre a rogue emulating one. Now you're a switching camps? Cooperative metamagic only works on an allied spellcaster casting a spell. If you use it, you're directly stating that you're a spellcaster to meet the coop metamagic requirement. Maybe thats just semantics to you guys, but it seems to be an extreme case of having your cake and eating it to me.
Doesn't fly anyway, metamagic can't affect a spell cast from a wand
edit: no metamagic spell trigger doesn't change things, unless you're paying an incantatrix to buff herself, since she has to be the one using the wand
Doesn't fly anyway, metamagic can't affect a spell cast from a wand.
Yeah, but what about scrolls?
and thats cheaper than PaO too boot.
WHO YOU CALLIN A BOOT?
Yeah, but what about scrolls?
Negatory on that, "cast from a wand, scroll, or other device"
I object!! I think that my second character abuses more than just cheapened buffs!!! I am in fleshraker form after all!!!
How can I disallow it? PHB allows spellcasting services. Now, the easiest way to disallow these things would be for the mini-adventure to be placed 2+ days from the nearest large city (smaller cities do not have the population to support an NPC of high enough level to cast the spells the posters are asking for). But I cannot make any changes to the mini-adventures (conflict of interest).
I just know if you did this some smartass would do the exact same thing, and just hire a teleport. Were living in the EQ/WOW generation of roleplayers, after all.
Incantatrix gain the ability to apply metamagic to allies spells. I'm paying to get an incantatrix to do this. They can gain this ability at level 7, and it is highly powerful.
(I did pay for the things. Persist is a 6th level spell adjustment, and the min CL is 7 for an incantatrix, so it is a minimum of 420 gp.)
Im not so sure about this. Buying a metamagiced spell is one thing, but thats not what you're doing, really. You're buying a use of a class ability.
The Coop ability isn't a spellslot, its int mod+3 per day, Im not sure how that would be priced. I could definitely see a incantatrix on the streetcorner slinging this, right beside the guy handing out pao's, but..
Pao is guaranteed, a level 7 incantatrix would have to roll a 39 dc spellcraft check to persist a first level spell, level 15 would have to beat 36.
Using the eversmoking bottle the summoner looks to work just fine. He first uncorks it when he sees the manticore and never recorks it.
Round 1: The manticore wins init (+2 vs +1)
It fires 6 spikes at you. Since your build does not show armor and you are flatfooted, your AC is 10. (It misses on a 1), 6 hit, dealing 6.5*6 = 39 damage. You have (8+4.5*4 + 2*5) = 36 damage.
You die before you uncork the bottle.
Or did I miss something?
I finally have what I am pretty sure is near perfect set up, with AC 21, SR 19, Energy Resist 17, DR 10/magic, 6.5 damage per round + 44 damage on a melee touch attack, as well as 16/11/16 saves.
I will start with the CR 7 encounter; “Just Plain silly”
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14585881&postcount=1693Show
Encounter 1: Shocker Lizards
I move into the room and am shocked for 12d8 damage = 54 damage. The reflex save DC is 16 for half, and my save is +11, 80%/50% = Success. I take 27 damage. I then have energy resist 17, so I take 10 damage.
I move to the center of the room (a 10 foot aura will get them all if I stand at the center of it, since the ones on either edge must be 20 feet from each other).
The lizards have to make a fortitude save DC 16 versus 6.5 cold damage. They have +4, which is a 45% chance.
So: 45/90/135/180/225/270.
1/3/5 take damage, 2, 4, 6 don’t.
I grab my light crossbow and fire at one. I have a +7 to hit to hit AC 16, or 60%, so I hit one, dealing 7.5 damage. 1 dies (I aim for the one with frost on it).
Round 2: 10d8 damage = 45 damage, reflex save DC 15. I have an 165/150% chance of succeeding, so I do, taking 23 damage. With Energy Resist, that is 6 points of damage.
23456 make their saves, at 315/360/405/450/495. 2, 4, and 6 take damage this time.
I fire a crossbow bolt again, at 120/150, and miss.
Round 3: 10d8 damage = 45 damage, reflex save DC 15. I have a 250/250 chance of succeeding, so I do, taking 6 more damage. My hp: 24/46
Saves this time for 2-6: 540/585/630/675/720.
2, 4, 6 fail their second save, being disabled. With animal intelligence, they rush to the corners of the room and hide, or escape through the door I left behind. If they did not do this, I would die. That being said, it is highly normal for animals to retreat when being beaten.
Round 4: 4d8 damage, reflex DC 12: My chance of saving: 95%, I fail due to succeeding the last one on an even number (250/250), so I take 1 point of damage (after resistance) (4d8=18, and resistance 17 to each element).
2 remaining, saves at 765/810. 1 get’s hit, also getting disabled.
I fire a crossbow bolt at the other, hitting and killing it. (180/150)
In that case the noncasters deserve the same consideration. This means only Meyer, Solberg, Clawhound and me have posted full builds, and Clawhound did a non-optimized fighter just to show he comes close to beating the encounters without really trying (e.i. it was built to fail).
Thaumaturgist's build is ilegal, ReaderOfPosts has a fun earthgliding supermount that really wins all for him by allowing him to attack from under earth. The second of Meyer's characters abuses cheapened buffs, and they can even be abused more by using sanctum spells and incantatrix. I suspect we can have level 10 spells at the cost of level 3 spells in magic-mart. I find that ridiculous in extreme, but it was done by Ikeren for a caster build, and if Meyer allows it, well...
Classes with more hp, better combat abilities and more feats make a stronger base frame for crazy buffs, so this will benefit non-casters far more than casters.
If they are incomplete or have illegalities in the build, they shouldn't count as a win, or as a loss.
In that respect, the wins given in fractional nomenclature shouldn't be so misleading as to make it seem like there are failures when the build should be out of consideration at all due to incompleteness or illegalities.
This applies to both sides of the parity; caster or non-caster alike. The end. I'm not trying to say casters should be listed more favorably than non-casters there. I'm just saying that perhaps Meyer should do it so there is no chance of people feeling misled, especially when battling against what he perceives as misleading statements (i.e. "casters are overpowered at all levels").
If they are incomplete or have illegalities in the build, they shouldn't count as a win, or as a loss.
In that respect, the wins given in fractional nomenclature shouldn't be so misleading as to make it seem like there are failures when the build should be out of consideration at all due to incompleteness or illegalities.
This applies to both sides of the parity; caster or non-caster alike. The end. I'm not trying to say casters should be listed more favorably than non-casters there. I'm just saying that perhaps Meyer should do it so there is no chance of people feeling misled, especially when battling against what he perceives as misleading statements (i.e. "casters are overpowered at all levels").
Otto:
Would the following suffice?
caster 6:1:7:5
noncaster 3:0:1:4
Or how about (based on current scores, per page 1)
caster 7/14 (7 wins+almost wins, 7 losses)
noncaster 3/4 (3 wins, 1 loss)
Or something like that? Also, this thread here is looking for overpowered casters, it is the sister thread which wants to use this information to debunk the myth of overpowered casters. I have no posted results in the other thread for quite some time (based on your suggestion at the time).
um ...
What is the state of the 13 who were submitted but are not part of the 6?
Did they completely pass the encounter? Which ones would you consider fails?
Lose. That line of thinking is made of lose.
But, if you want to count those incomplete or illegal ones in your 9/16 claim, no problem. It's your thread after all.
Here's my contestant; non-caster.
Barbarian 2 / Monk 3
Chaotic Evil
Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Well, since it's already illegal, as well as incomplete, lets get that non-caster total down to 3/8 (37.5%).
Anyone else want to post some more incomplete or illegal non-caster builds so they can be counted as well?
That, you cannot lay on me ... however, in his defense, in this thread's sister thread people say things like "take a look at the char opt board to learn how over powered casters are". So I am unsure how unfair it is ... especially since the base comment made, is that casters are underpowered compared to noncasters before level 7.
Forgive me. I thought that responding to misinformation with more misinformation was something to shun, not embrace. :embarrass
However, you are correct that if people are not following the thread and only read the last page or so, that they would miss that, so in that aspect, it is misleading.
Then why defend it?
Lose. That line of thinking is made of lose.
But, if you want to count those incomplete or illegal ones in your 9/16 claim, no problem. It's your thread after all.
Which is why I am asking for assistance in listing things is ways that seem fair to all ... I initially had pass/fail, someone said "how about you include almost wins, and incompletes", so I did. The first post breaks everything down on a per-category basis. With everything next to each other, the chances of someone missing the "incomplete/ineligible" drops to almost zero.
If you would really like me to include that non-caster build, I will (and yes, it would adjust the numbers).
Forgive me. I thought that responding to misinformation with more misinformation was something to shun, not embrace. :embarrass
No problem. I had not thought I was defending anything, was rather showing a possible interpretation (for both sides) that showed it as a possible misunderstanding instead of an attempt to mislead.
Hmmm, it is not something I can find in the tables of stuff sold in the PHB, DMG or any other suplement. I wouldn't allow to purchase the services of an incantatrix like that, and particularly not letting the player to pick a price to the service.
Agreed.
Much as that hurts the most powerful build presented so far, this is sort of a no-mans-land gray area.
"I pay a frenzied berserker to inspire a frenzy in my entrant, I slaughter the encounter, then repeat the next day."
Which is why I am asking for assistance in listing things is ways that seem fair to all ... I initially had pass/fail, someone said "how about you include almost wins, and incompletes", so I did. The first post breaks everything down on a per-category basis. With everything next to each other, the chances of someone missing the "incomplete/ineligible" drops to almost zero.
Listing them in the four categories you did previously is much preferred by the bugbear contingent. Note that I didn't say anything when you did that previously. Then, when it got presented as "[only] 6/19 casters pass", which is misleading, did I say something.
If you would really like me to include that non-caster build, I will (and yes, it would adjust the numbers).
No, I don't want that to count as a win or a loss. Including it as an incomplete really won't mean much, just as it doesn't mean much for incomplete casters to be counted for or against either side.
No problem. I had not thought I was defending anything, was rather showing a possible interpretation (for both sides) that showed it as a possible misunderstanding instead of an attempt to mislead.
Well, you said "in his defense", so that's why I said you were defending his comment.
Agreed.
Much as that hurts the most powerful build presented so far, this is sort of a no-mans-land gray area.
"I pay a frenzied berserker to inspire a frenzy in my entrant, I slaughter the encounter, then repeat the next day."
So far, we have several votes against incantrix coop assistance. Voting will continue until noon est tomorrow, at which time there will be a new rule posted on page one, or the floodgates will need to be opened.
I cannot vote on this.
New rule(s) would be
"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
[edit]
So far, there was only one vote for the Psychic warrior build ... it was a No (as Psion is not allowed) so the build needs to stay in incomplete/illegal status as voting has closed.
10 - Easy Win
7-9 - Degrees of win
6 - Win, but opponent had many possible tactics to use against you
5.1 - Close victory
5 - Tie
4.9 - Close loss, or you lack the McGuffin to kill a puzzle monsters.
4 - Loss, but you had many tactics to use against opponent or you put up a good fight.
2-4 - degrees of loss
1 - Total Loss. You didn't even get to act.
For example, Joe Whitebread could go up against the hydra. Normally, this would score as a loss. In this system, he would get a 4.0. He lost, but if he spends 20 rounds fighting his opponent and outdamaged his opponent 3:1, can you say that he was ineffective?
For example, I would rate Joe Whitebread as:
Manticore: 5.0 (both sides have enough options that either could win or retreat)
Snake: 2.0
Wraith: 4.9 (one lucky roll changes the fight)
Rug: 4.0 (Joe eventually gets unlucky in a fight he otherwise wins. If it were a different animated object, he would win.)
Dragon: 5.0 (each side has enough options to achieve victory or to retreat)
That averages to a 3.6.
Way many moons ago, we developed a scoring system for encounters.
10 - Easy Win
7-9 - Degrees of win
6 - Win, but opponent had many possible tactics to use against you
5.1 - Close victory
5 - Tie
4.9 - Close loss, or you lack the McGuffin to kill a puzzle monsters.
4 - Loss, but you had many tactics to use against opponent or you put up a good fight.
2-4 - degrees of loss
1 - Total Loss. You didn't even get to act.
For example, Joe Whitebread could go up against the hydra. Normally, this would score as a loss. In this system, he would get a 4.0. He lost, but if he spends 20 rounds fighting his opponent and outdamaged his opponent 3:1, can you say that he was ineffective?
For example, I would rate Joe Whitebread as:
Manticore: 5.0 (both sides have enough options that either could win or retreat)
Snake: 2.0
Wraith: 4.9 (one lucky roll changes the fight)
Rug: 4.0 (Joe eventually gets unlucky in a fight he otherwise wins. If it were a different animated object, he would win.)
Dragon: 5.0 (each side has enough options to achieve victory or to retreat)
That averages to a 3.6.
How would we implement this type of scoring?
For instance, when a character rests after each encounter, does that reflect well on him, or against him? Also, how does this take into account regearing/rebuilding the character? (Bela, DMM, etc)
I assume this is the list of tactics you talk about? Do you have an updated build that includes this magic item? As it stands, this is the only build I can find.
Round 1: The manticore wins init (+2 vs +1)
It fires 6 spikes at you. Since your build does not show armor and you are flatfooted, your AC is 10. (It misses on a 1), 6 hit, dealing 6.5*6 = 39 damage. You have (8+4.5*4 + 2*5) = 36 damage.
You die before you uncork the bottle.
Or did I miss something?
Besides the fact I can start the encounter at well outside range?
Not a thing, you are as as perceptive as you are brilliant.
Seriously, do you work at being obtuse when it comes to how casters are run or do you just not understand how they work? That may be a seriously large part of why you think non-casters can compete in the face of all facts.
Edit: That nitpick is roughly equivilent to me making the assumption that are you are too stupid to put on your armor, cast any buffs or do anything other than show up in spike range of the manticore. Your strategy still isn't much better than that and still loses but at least I credit you with being able to remeber to don armor.
Lose. That line of thinking is made of lose.
But, if you want to count those incomplete or illegal ones in your 9/16 claim, no problem. It's your thread after all.
Here's my contestant; non-caster.
Barbarian 2 / Monk 3
Chaotic Evil
Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Well, since it's already illegal, as well as incomplete, lets get that non-caster total down to 3/8 (37.5%).
Anyone else want to post some more incomplete or illegal non-caster builds so they can be counted as well?
Forgive me. I thought that responding to misinformation with more misinformation was something to shun, not embrace. :embarrass
Thank you Otto. Thats exactly what I am talking about.
Here is another non-caster build
Sucky McSuckpants
Str 100
Dex 10
con 1
Int 100000
Wis 1
Cha 1
Flaws:
Frail -1 hp/level
Noncombatant
Feats:
Skillfocus (Sucking)
Skillfocus (Really sucking)
Skillfocus (Denial of Reality)
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical (Basket)
Here is Suckys first run at the cave!
Manticore wins init, spikes Sucky.
Oops another non-caster failure.
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
I vote no to both.
NPC spellcasting produces a logical trap expounded in many threads. Spellcasters can use spells cast for them as this demonstrates the power of spellcasting, but this same tactic used by melee demonstrates melee weakness as the melee character is forced to seek a spellcaster just to be competitive.
In fact, what it demonstrates is what happens when you give characters abilities far above their level.
In order to remove that argument from any conclusions reached here, I would rather see all NPC spellcasting and other such tricks removed.
If we do decided to allow spellcasting, we need to define our "city" size. 3rd spells and spell items should be available, but nothing higher. Even better, restrict items and spellcasting to MIC Level.
Besides the fact I can start the encounter at well outside range?
Not a thing, you are as as perceptive as you are brilliant.
Seriously, do you work at being obtuse when it comes to how casters are run or do you just not understand how they work? That may be a seriously large part of why you think non-casters can compete in the face of all facts.
Edit: That nitpick is roughly equivilent to me making the assumption that are you are too stupid to put on your armor, cast any buffs or do anything other than show up in spike range of the manticore. Your strategy still isn't much better than that and still loses but at least I credit you with being able to remeber to don armor.
What range do you start at? Anywhere within 185 feet results in this.
Anywhere from 190 to 285 feet results in this:
Round 1:
You see each other, manticore wins initiative. Double moves (or runs, your choice) toward you.
You (move action) grab the bottle, (standard) uncork it.
Show
Eversmoking Bottle: This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
What range do you start at? Anywhere within 185 feet results in this.
Anywhere from 190 to 285 feet results in this:
Round 1:
You see each other, manticore wins initiative. Double moves (or runs, your choice) toward you.
You (move action) grab the bottle, (standard) uncork it.ShowEversmoking Bottle: This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
First off, that doesn't happen if I uncork and then move.
Second I don't even have to get within 300' to begin with.
To uncork and move, you need to have the bottle in hand to begin with, do you?
Distance wise:
Ok .. so at 300' from each other (-30 to spot check), you roll a 20 on the spot check, resulting in a -7 to see the manticore. It has a -2 to its hide check (0-4 (size) +2(dex)) Which is not enough to see it. It has a +9 vs your +1, so when it rolls a 20 to see you, it has a -1 vs your +1, not quite enough to see you.
First off, that doesn't happen if I uncork and then move.
Second I don't even have to get within 300' to begin with.
Meyer is right.
I prefer not to go there. All classes have access to high level spells items via caster checks or UMD checks, and it won't prove anything.
Me too. I purchase only recovery spells (eg restoration) and only when my character thinks he'll fail without them, so retreats after a victory and only when the challenge allows it.
I feel guilty adding a few caster levels to scrolls, potions or wands that aren't on the main list. But I figure he could commission them. Mostly I assume that no hired spellcaster buff will make it to the dungeon, even if it lasts 24 hours.
To uncork and move, you need to have the bottle in hand to begin with, do you?
Distance wise:
Ok .. so at 300' from each other (-30 to spot check), you roll a 20 on the spot check, resulting in a -7 to see the manticore. It has a -2 to its hide check (0-4 (size) +2(dex)) Which is not enough to see it.
[qoute]
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
Depending on how you penalize it for moving its full movement every round its at either a -5 or -20 to hide even if it could hide.
So assuming its even allowed to hide... my +11spot vs its -2 hide then its -20 for movement and my -30 for range. That would be -19 vs -22. I still spot it.
And yes, I do walk around with my bottle out, I haven't got any other combat items to speak of. No staff, nothing like that. The other hand holds a scroll of some kind, usually a SNA scroll.
Also what is the DC to spot a cave that I know is there and I'm looking for. Not much I imagine.
So far, we have several votes against incantrix coop assistance. Voting will continue until noon est tomorrow, at which time there will be a new rule posted on page one, or the floodgates will need to be opened.
I cannot vote on this.
New rule(s) would be
"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
[edit]
So far, there was only one vote for the Psychic warrior build ... it was a No (as Psion is not allowed) so the build needs to stay in incomplete/illegal status as voting has closed.
I'm thinking it should not even allow spellcasting services and the like.
I went right ahead and made edits to my build because it was missing the spirit of this topic. From what I get, reading all these pages, is that this is really about showcasing the abilities of the 'build' and not about what others can do for you to inflate you some.
I can accept no outside spellcasting though. It's easier to adjudicate. I had missed that the DMM persistent cleric was hiring a "mercenary incantrix" to achieve his buffs. I thought he'd done it with self-buffs and bizzare consumables, which would be fine.
I'm getting far less use out of outsid ecasting than most builds are (I think the restoration in the CR5 challenge was it, and I could have instead bought a potion of bear endurance for less than the restoration cost and won anyway) and it is easier to adjudicate that way. Bela level 7 certainly has no plan involving outside casters.
[qoute]
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
I assumed the manticore was using the cave for cover/concealment and spotted me approaching. I think though the encounter had it ambushing you on the trail, which I got wrong (not that it changed anything).
"ambushing on the trail" doens't really work if the PC doesn't follow the trail, which is why I put it in the cave. If the PC somehow snuck up (invisible or something) he could get the drop on the manticore). The cave is also terrain that is unambiguously there to use for cover or to get to closer quarters combat once the manticore is in the air.
She has the feats mage-slayer, pierce magical protection and pierce magical defense, so his CL is 2
She also has the feats sanctum spell, extend spell and persistent spell.
Using instant metamagic from and having improved metamagic, this girl can cast extended any of his spells, and casting them outside her sanctuary the spells are actually one level less.
So she can persist+extend an eight level spell and it would be CL2, level 7. For a cost of 140 gp. Not bad for a seventh level spell that will last two days!
If we ban the selling of class abilities (like instant metamagic) she can still extend+persist first level spells, that become level 7 spells, and cost 140 gp. Adding arcane theses (whateverspellIwant) will give us extended+persisted level 2 spells at the cost of 280 gp (because her CL is 4).
If the caster is level 17, we have level 3 spells that last two days for 400 gp (spell level 8, CL 5).
And I am pretty sure the caster level can be lowered further, and the metamagic made more effective with more feats, I am barely trying, just pointing out how broken is allowing the player to decide the feats and use abilities of the NPC caster as Ikeren was doing.
I assumed the manticore was using the cave for cover/concealment and spotted me approaching. I think though the encounter had it ambushing you on the trail, which I got wrong (not that it changed anything).
"ambushing on the trail" doens't really work if the PC doesn't follow the trail, which is why I put it in the cave. If the PC somehow snuck up (invisible or something) he could get the drop on the manticore). The cave is also terrain that is unambiguously there to use for cover or to get to closer quarters combat once the manticore is in the air.
That goes directly against Meyers statements when the dinos snuck up on the manticore. His words were the manticore is always flying around the cave and never lands. Ok, so we know it has no cover and must be moving fairly quickly or it stalls. That makes it quite easy to spot.
You could easilly apply a circumstance bonus or penalty for a large flying creature outlined against a blue sky. As per Meyers encounter I can go ahead and pick what the conditions outside are.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
I forgot, in DnD, can you spot miles ago? If not, then it starts out with full cover from you.
Depending on how you penalize it for moving its full movement every round its at either a -5 or -20 to hide even if it could hide.
So assuming its even allowed to hide... my +11spot vs its -2 hide then its -20 for movement and my -30 for range. That would be -19 vs -22. I still spot it.
Per SRD on movement, you are normally considered to be single moving, so it would be a -5 penalty, not -20.
so +11-30 vs -2-5 = -19 vs -7, you do not see him. He needs to be 120 feet closer (180', within its spiking range)
And yes, I do walk around with my bottle out, I haven't got any other combat items to speak of. No staff, nothing like that. The other hand holds a scroll of some kind, usually a SNA scroll.
Ok, then I withdraw my objection to that.
Also what is the DC to spot a cave that I know is there and I'm looking for. Not much I imagine.
Errrrr ... I don't know.
Hmm, so I go to magic-mart and meet this woman, a wizard 6/Incantatix 10
She has the feats mage-slayer, pierce magical protection and pierce magical defense, so his CL is 2
She also has the feats sanctum spell, extend spell and persistent spell.
Using instant metamagic from and having improved metamagic, this girl can cast extended any of his spells, and casting them outside her sanctuary the spells are actually one level less.
So she can persist+extend an eight level spell and it would be CL2, level 7. For a cost of 140 gp. Not bad for a seventh level spell that will last two days!
If we ban the selling of class abilities (like instant metamagic) she can still extend+persist first level spells, that become level 7 spells, and cost 140 gp. Adding arcane theses (whateverspellIwant) will give us extended+persisted level 2 spells at the cost of 280 gp (because her CL is 4).
If the caster is level 17, we have level 3 spells that last two days for 400 gp (spell level 8, CL 5).
And I am pretty sure the caster level can be lowered further, and the metamagic made more effective with more feats, I am barely trying, just pointing out how broken is allowing the player to decide the feats and use abilities of the NPC caster as Ikeren was doing.
Extend and persist don't stack like that. Persist is 24 hours.
The buying of the cooperative spell works for casters and not for non-casters. If it is allowed then obviously casters are going to run amok all over the non-casters even more than they already are.
I find it fairly ironic that you're arguing that buying magic invalidates any real strength of the build itself considering that was the cornerstone for the only build you have submitted.
That goes directly against Meyers statements when the dinos snuck up on the manticore. His words were the manticore is always flying around the cave and never lands. Ok, so we know it has no cover and must be moving fairly quickly or it stalls. That makes it quite easy to spot.
It needs to use a move action or it stalls. This is not fairly quickly. But, remember, using DnD logic, the flying encounter is always met flying.
You could easilly apply a circumstance bonus or penalty for a large flying creature outlined against a blue sky. As per Meyers encounter I can go ahead and pick what the conditions outside are.
Yes, I said I was going at night. You are going during daylight (else you are restricted to darkvision distance).
But my point stands, these are things that need to be added to you build description so that they can be taken into consideration.
Extend and persist don't stack like that. Persist is 24 hours.
The buying of the cooperative spell works for casters and not for non-casters. If it is allowed then obviously casters are going to run amok all over the non-casters even more than they already are.
I find it fairly ironic that you're arguing that buying magic invalidates any real strength of the build itself considering that was the cornerstone for the only build you have submitted.
Um ... The DMM cleric is extending persistant spells (hence the whole "takes 1+ days to buff" comment I have made). I had thought that was legal (as that is what one of the posters told us).
I forgot, in DnD, can you spot miles ago? If not, then it starts out with full cover from you.
What that doesn't even make sense.
Look its flying, it can't have cover no matter what nonsense sort of jumble of a sentance you write.
Per SRD on movement, you are normally considered to be single moving, so it would be a -5 penalty, not -20.
so +11-30 vs -2-5 = -19 vs -7, you do not see him. He needs to be 120 feet closer (180', within its spiking range)
The -5 is only valid if you are doing less than a full move but more than a half. Are you saying it moves 45' each round to avoid taking the larger penalty? I call bs.
Yes, I said I was going at night. You are going during daylight (else you are restricted to darkvision distance).
So I can go during a windstorm where range attacks are impossible right? Hey that could be the strategy that gets you by the manticore.
Extend and persist don't stack like that. Persist is 24 hours.
According to the posted DMM cleric, extended persisted spells last two days.
The buying of the cooperative spell works for casters and not for non-casters. If it is allowed then obviously casters are going to run amok all over the non-casters even more than they already are.
I find it fairly ironic that you're arguing that buying magic invalidates any real strength of the build itself considering that was the cornerstone for the only build you have submitted.
Oh no, not at all. I want you all agree this crap. So I can crush all encounters with a level 5 commoner with 5 level 8 spells persisted. That will show how little overpowered everything posted here has been so far. It also shows that casting is utterly irrelevant at all levels, since real optimizers just go to magic-mart, break the game with a little gold and forget silly details like class abilities.
I do find ironic that the pro-casters have brought all this to light with their arguments in favor of the power of the casters, too!
Edit to explain: DMM Persistent as the one trick non-casters could not easily duplicate yet. Thanks to this kind of chicanery, all the buffs of the DMM cleric becomes available to everybody for a trivial amount of cash.
That goes directly against Meyers statements when the dinos snuck up on the manticore. His words were the manticore is always flying around the cave and never lands. Ok, so we know it has no cover and must be moving fairly quickly or it stalls. That makes it quite easy to spot.
I missed that. Mea culpa. Would have made no diff in my encounter.
I agree that a druid should normally be able to notice a flying manticore if he's approaching from wilderness before the manticore notices him. assuming he invested in spot and hide and didn't use the trail because he has woodland stride.
At some point the manticore will be visibile without cover/concealment from whatever underbrush trees etc there might be locally that might block the druid's vision. At that point, if the druid probably doesn't get spotted due to distance but he can make it a sure thing with ranks spent on hide and/or spells like camoflauge running.
Choosing day or night seems a reasonable thing. Choosing weather less so, unless you can control it. Generally DM gets to say what weather is on a given day, although a druid can easily know what the short term weather forecast is and pick the day most helpful to his strategy (as could anybody with survival ranks)
Which is stuff you should be mentioning, of course. If you don't say what you're doing, it's pretty much assumed you are walking up the trail in broad daylight.
Bluff +7 + Cha +3 + Skill Focus (Bluff) +3 + Glibness +30 = +43.
Their rogue Sense Motive +7 + Cha +2 + Skill Focus (Sense Motive) +3 = +12.
Given the bard's large margin of win, he could do this to a much higher level party (circa 15th level) and still reliably bluff them.
Should I do an actual writeup with equipment? He could add a bluff enhancing item of +5 and a charisma enhancing item of +2.
This is the ultimate expression of what happens when you get access to whatever NPC aid that you want, and thus, why this tactic needs regulating. Even so, this tactic is quite powerful if the bard recruits four 5th level characters. For example, the bard recruits four optimized NPCs.
The question is: is the flying manticore difficult to see? Is the druid difficult to see? Is the guy carrying a smoking bottle difficult to see?
Rufus T. Firefly (Bard 5) goes into town, use Glibness to bluff a higher level party to come out here and defeat the terrible evil, and thus defeat the encounter without ever spilling his Guiness.
Bluff +7 + Cha +3 + Skill Focus (Bluff) +3 + Glibness +30 = +43.
Their rogue Sense Motive +7 + Cha +2 + Skill Focus (Sense Motive) +3 = +12.
Given the bard's large margin of win, he could do this to a much higher level party (circa 15th level) and still reliably bluff them.
Should I do an actual writeup with equipment? He could add a bluff enhancing item of +5 and a charisma enhancing item of +2.
A commoner can do this exact same thing, with a slight difference in ranks, doing the same tactics.
Is this a serious caster build? Also, would the DM give XP to your bard for this win?
[edit] No, *THIS* is the ultimate expression ...
A commoner can do this exact same thing, with a slight difference in ranks, doing the same tactics.
Is this a serious caster build? Also, would the DM give XP to your bard for this win?
[edit] No, *THIS* is the ultimate expression ...
If you think this is a legit build, I'll do a full writeup for it. (This theory has been on the bottom of my sig for months.)
I think the DM would give the bard one encounter's worth of XP for this trick once, then never any XP for it again. Of all the classes pulling this trick, this is the only class where this trick actually fits the class's archtype. You WOULD find this trick used in a book.
He would need to use a scroll to do this, and that goes against my own stand on what equipment that a class should gain access to. Likewise, the use of NPC's goes against my current stand. Even without the glibness, the bard has a high chance of success.
This tactic points out an area where the social rules interact poorly with the mechanical rules.
Note that bluff only deals with belief. I imagine a paladin responding, "You are right. So right. We're busy on an adventure, so I'll walk around town with you and help you drum up three more adventurers to help you on your way. I'll even toss in a little money for equipment. Keep in mind, the gods help those who help themselves." Belief <> the action that you want.
DM's can be evil if they want to.
If you think this is a legit build, I'll do a full writeup for it. (This theory has been on the bottom of my sig for months.)
No, I do not think this is legit, however, I ask people that question just to make sure that I am not swaying things more than I already am.
I think the DM would give the bard one encounter's worth of XP for this trick once, then never any XP for it again. Of all the classes pulling this trick, this is the only class where this trick actually fits the class's archtype. You WOULD find this trick used in a book.
The other problem I have with it, is that it is just a variant of "I pay an NPC X gold to do this"
The other problem I have with it, is that it is just a variant of "I pay an NPC X gold to do this"
Like... 30 gp and my mercenary wartroll cleans up the CR5 dungeon for me while I stay in the inn drinking beer and flirting with the waitress?
Cheaper than ogre skeletons, too.
CR5 cave:
while wandering through the hills I am a attacked by a manticore!
Show
we roll for initiative. Using nerve skitter I have +13 so I probably go first (93% chance.) As my bonus is higher, he has to roll higher then me so out of 400 combinations of 2 d20 rolls only 91 of them are higher then mine.
my first turn I cast invisibility and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell I am no longer where the sound was coming from when the Manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate until the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose. to kill him it takes 13 turns
we roll for initiative. Using nerve skitter I have +13 so I probably go first (93% chance.) As my bonus is higher, he has to roll higher then me so out of 400 combinations of 2 d20 rolls only 91 of them are higher then mine.
my first turn I cast invisibility and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell I am no longer where the sound was coming from when the Manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate until the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose. to kill him it takes 13 turns
New rule(s) would be
"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
I'd vote that we don't allow people to purchase either spellcasting or other class abilities.
I'd rather have it like this: you can buy any magic item listed in a book. If you can activate it, you can use it. This would include items combined using the rules in the MiC, and even partially charged wands, if everyone says that's ok.
Cheaper than ogre skeletons, too.
The Dread Necro can make them for free, if he can manage to kill an ogre with Fell Animate metamagic.
Edit: Oh, I think it is a good idea that people can only Animate Undead that they've killed during one or more of the encounters here, also. The exception to this would be something like a commoner, or a harmless animal that they could find (and kill) in town.
I plan on combining some of the tactics I've seen in other builds in my updated wizard and perhaps contributing another build, also (probably a Master of Shrouds of some kind). I'll probably do this stuff in the next week, since I'm off work and don't have that many plans for the holidays.
Like... 30 gp and my mercenary wartroll cleans up the CR5 dungeon for me while I stay in the inn drinking beer and flirting with the waitress?
Cheaper than ogre skeletons, too.
Yep. Too cheap.
In general, anything that requires DM judgment should either be scheduled or banned. That is, things under the player control are OK, but those things beyond player control should be banned unless specifically included.
A druid has a right to an animal companion, even a fleshraker. A fighter with Handle Animal could have a fleshraker by the same logic. Either could buy a Potion of Cure Light Wounds in a medium city. Both could spend their money on a single, large-pricetag item. This is either allowed as a character, or allowed by the base rules of the thread.
Any character getting a PAO assumes that there is a city capable of supporting casters of this level; that there is such as caster in that city; that that caster is willing to cast that spell for profit; that that caster is not otherwise busy; that the caster actually knows that particular spell; and that the cast be familiar with the final form. That is too many "ifs".
Likewise, getting NPC help assumes that such help is available. This is beyond the player's control.
I'd vote that we don't allow people to purchase either spellcasting or other class abilities.
I'd rather have it like this: you can buy any magic item listed in a book. If you can activate it, you can use it. This would include items combined using the rules in the MiC, and even partially charged wands, if everyone says that's ok.
The Dread Necro can make them for free, if he can manage to kill an ogre with Fell Animate metamagic.
seconded
:D
Note: I have changed my build, replacing emerald razor (which I do not qualify for) for Steely Wind. This is not metagaming, if you look at my character, I have bracers of quick strike (extra attack), whirling frenzy (extra attack), and fire riposte (extra attack). It is character development. I will wait for feedback on this first encounter before continuing.
Encounter 1: Entry:
Show
Surprise round: (+11 hide vs Spot +3 = miss)
Shocker Lizards zap. They deal 12d8 damage, DC 16 for the save. (+5 vs DC 16 = 50%) No damage, evasion.
Initiative,
My init is 2 higher, so I win.
Per the encounter, the ceiling is 20' high, which means that there are 3 squares between the ground and them. I am 5' tall, with a 10' weapon ... so I need to jump to reach them. Terrain is difficult (1/2 movement) based on rubble -- which is exactly the reason why I have both Nimble Charge and the Boots of the Dwarven King. So, I charge, activating my bracers of quick strike (giving me two attacks).
AC 16 vs (4 (BAB) +5 (STR) +1 (weapon) +2 (Charge) = 12) hits 85% (85, 165) of the time, both hit, each one kills one of the shocker lizards.
Now, per the encounter, it says that they are trained to electric zap for the kill ... however, the creatures say that they will bite if the zap is ineffective ... so they will be biting me. It is obvious to them that they will die from my reach weapon if they don't do something and as they saw, their electric attack is not effective versus me.
Dropping down on me, per MM
Surprise round: (+11 hide vs Spot +3 = miss)
Shocker Lizards zap. They deal 12d8 damage, DC 16 for the save. (+5 vs DC 16 = 50%) No damage, evasion.
Initiative,
My init is 2 higher, so I win.
Per the encounter, the ceiling is 20' high, which means that there are 3 squares between the ground and them. I am 5' tall, with a 10' weapon ... so I need to jump to reach them. Terrain is difficult (1/2 movement) based on rubble -- which is exactly the reason why I have both Nimble Charge and the Boots of the Dwarven King. So, I charge, activating my bracers of quick strike (giving me two attacks).
AC 16 vs (4 (BAB) +5 (STR) +1 (weapon) +2 (Charge) = 12) hits 85% (85, 165) of the time, both hit, each one kills one of the shocker lizards.
Now, per the encounter, it says that they are trained to electric zap for the kill ... however, the creatures say that they will bite if the zap is ineffective ... so they will be biting me. It is obvious to them that they will die from my reach weapon if they don't do something and as they saw, their electric attack is not effective versus me.
Dropping down on me, per MM
Show
They drop down from the ceiling to attack me, provoking (240 - miss, 320 - hit, 400 - hit).
Two can attempt to bite me, (+3 vs ac 10) 70% (70,140).
So only one succeeds. I take 2 damage.
End of round 1: Me: 31, Four dead, Two alive.
Round 2:
I hit one (460), killing it.
It bites me (200), for 2 damage.
End of Round 2: Me: 29, Five dead, one alive.
Round 3:
I miss one.
It bits me (260), for 2 damage.
End of Round 3: Me: 27, Five dead, one alive
Round 4:
I kill the remaining one (320).
End of round 4: Me: 27, all dead.
I burn a charge of my healing belt, bringing me up to full.
They drop down from the ceiling to attack me, provoking (240 - miss, 320 - hit, 400 - hit).
Two can attempt to bite me, (+3 vs ac 10) 70% (70,140).
So only one succeeds. I take 2 damage.
End of round 1: Me: 31, Four dead, Two alive.
Round 2:
I hit one (460), killing it.
It bites me (200), for 2 damage.
End of Round 2: Me: 29, Five dead, one alive.
Round 3:
I miss one.
It bits me (260), for 2 damage.
End of Round 3: Me: 27, Five dead, one alive
Round 4:
I kill the remaining one (320).
End of round 4: Me: 27, all dead.
I burn a charge of my healing belt, bringing me up to full.
Hmm. Definitely needs to be access, for Restoration/Atonement, etc. We could limit purchasing to a small city, which would cap the highest npc wizard at 10. This allows up to a few 5th level spells, and limits magic item purchases to items
I dunno if this helps at all. If we limit spells that can be purchased, PAO is out the door, but Alter Self builds come back in. With no DM to limit forms available, or at least create knowledge checks (I mean come on, it's not like everyone knows that Ancestor Dwarves are the ub3r).
MIC/DMG rules for combining items seem fine, specifically crafted should be left out though. Partially charged items: eh. Makes it cheap enough to get a bunch of 10 charge wands, which is all you'd need for a days adventuring. Oh well, you know you're heading out to solo, which means consumable use goes up. I guess it's fine.
I think the whole point of the preknowledge sections of encounters is to determine what "fair" preparation entails. We allowed swapping potions when the dragon changed from White > Black, so I think it's fair to swap Dragonhunting supplies for Undeadhunting.
Purchasing class abilities: Right out. No way. If you want to apply Incantrix shenanigans, you be the Incantrix and co-op the spells being cast on you. Same with Frenzy, etc. If it has a price already, we can at least argue that it's underpriced. With no price listed, we can't just assume it's free.
Psionics: I forgot to vote on this earlier. I think the Psychic Warrior build should be allowed, as it's just subbing Fighter 2/PW 2 for Fighter 4 for an extra feat. We want overpowered, so this should be fine.
I do think that this would allow Psionics in, which requires a bit of discussion about what makes a spellcaster. If a Psion is a spellcaster, is a Jaunter?
*EDIT* Meyer, why do the lizards just hang out while you recover?
A lizard tends to bite only after its shock has rendered an opponent unconscious or when the shock seems to have no effect at all.
One shock attempt /= ineffective, once down they gnaw on some fried orc.
Surprise round: (+11 hide vs Spot +3 = miss)
Shocker Lizards zap. They deal 12d8 damage, DC 16 for the save. (+5 vs DC 16 = 50%) No damage, evasion.
There is also a 50% chance that they kill you outright, unless you can take 54 points of damage (on average).
When I ran the first series of encounters, if there was a 50/50 chance of something, I assumed that it went against me on the first time, then for me on the second, and alternated after that.
Without some kind of foreknowledge, bait, metagaming, etc, that encounter looks quite nasty. :P
Edit: I agree with Grizley that they should continue to shock you, also, and they should continue until you're dead. I think you fail this one, using the tactics you listed.
I see a problem with your numbers based on them zapping. They have no reason to stop shocking just because you fell over. So they shock you again sending you to -40 or so and the kobolds clean out your half eaten corpse. Alternately the lizards eat you when you've been KO'd. Option number 3 the kobolds in the next room hear the fighting and investigate. Captured alive and killed later or CDG on the spot + looting.
I'll rate that as a 3 using the point based scoring method since you had the ability to fight back but just weren't quite strong enough.
Sorry Meyer, it says they've been trained to shock. Even if you evade its clear thier shock IS effective and still valid tactics using the MM statblock.
Which is why I posted both ways.
I see a problem with your numbers based on them zapping. They have no reason to stop shocking just because you fell over. So they shock you again sending you to -40 or so and the kobolds clean out your half eaten corpse.
I disagree ... which is why I posted just the first encounter. In DnD logic, monsters stop attacking when the creature falls over and is considered dead. Now, this encounter might be different -- which is why I posted this before continuing. And, I will accept the consensus of the group on what to consider this.
Alternately the lizards eat you when you've been KO'd. Option number 3 the kobolds in the next room hear the fighting and investigate. Captured alive and killed later or CDG on the spot + looting.
The kobolds in the other room are not able to do that. Per posted tactics, they wait until the door near them in opened. If they could join this fight, then it would be a much higher EL than it already is.
Additionally, when the DMM Cleric went through, the kobolds did not investigate. (although, for that build, it would be easier if they did investigate).
There is also a 50% chance that they kill you outright, unless you can take 54 points of damage (on average).
When I ran the first series of encounters, if there was a 50/50 chance of something, I assumed that it went against me on the first time, then for me on the second, and alternated after that.
Without some kind of foreknowledge, bait, metagaming, etc, that encounter looks quite nasty. :P
50% is the threshold agreed to WAY back when (pointing to page 25 or so) (when I moved from weighted averages to thresholds). This is a legal description of the fight.
[edit] The 2 int lizards shocked me, watched my body shake/etc .. and fall down. What reason do they have to not consider me dead? In cartoons, my body would have blown out of my shoes, which would be smoking. Plus, they are on the ceiling, so its not like they are going to just wander over. (it would take them some amount of rounds)
COMBAT
A shocker lizard relies on its electricity abilities in combat. A lizard tends to bite only after its shock has rendered an opponent unconscious or when the shock seems to have no effect at all. A solitary lizard flees once it delivers its shocks, but if other shocker lizards are nearby, they all home in on their comrade’s discharges and attempt to administer their shocks to the foe.
the encounter should be run like this:
Encounter 1: Entry (ECL 7)
The cave entrance opens into a small cavern, approximately circular, 40 feet in diameter and 20 feet high. It appears to be empty, and is full of miscellaneous debris and rocks. (Difficult terrain: land-based movement is halved)
6 Shocker Lizards are hidden on the jagged ceiling of this room (hide check +11). They have been trained by the kobolds to kill any non-kobold that enters. Every action, as long as at least two lizards remain, the entire group produces a lethal shock, which fills the room.
There are no apparent further exits from this room, but groups of kobolds have been seen entering and exiting the cave.
There is a secret door concealed on one of the walls, requiring a search check (DC 15) to locate. There are approximately 240 5-foot squares that contain walls. Assuming that the door is found a quarter of the way through searching the walls, it takes 2 hours to find the door (taking 20 on each search check). Obviously a character with ranks in search could do this much faster.
all you know when you enter is.....
round #1:
Lightning from the ceiling fills the room(unless you beat their hide check +11 with your Spot Check) you roll to save vs Electricity Damage
round #2:...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
Round #3 ...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
Round#xxx ...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
Round#xxx ...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
Round#..etc....
they continue until you fall down and stop moving...remember they have been TRAINED to do this.... if you get up and attack a single lizard...they all start up again
you cant Attack them until you SPOT EACH one.... if you spot it , you can attack it, if not you could try attacking squares, but unless to target the correct square ... they are unharmed
:D
50% is the threshold agreed to WAY back when (pointing to page 25 or so) (when I moved from weighted averages to thresholds). This is a legal description of the fight.
[edit] The 2 int lizards shocked me, watched my body shake/etc .. and fall down. What reason do they have to not consider me dead? In cartoons, my body would have blown out of my shoes, which would be smoking. Plus, they are on the ceiling, so its not like they are going to just wander over. (it would take them some amount of rounds)
Fine. Call it a "Win" if you want. I'm just saying it is equally likely that you walk in and keel over dead. And I'm also pointing out that I used a more rigid system of scrutiny on my own build.
I might try this encounter, but I'm going to add some gear and spells to the 5th level version before I do anything with it, seeing how it is almost 3000 under budget as written. I'm also going to start using some of the brilliant sneaky tactics used by some of the other casters (Unseen Servant with a shirt and hat, lol). Before I basically just did a "brute force" approach to most of it, and played my mage like a "tank", except for scouting with the bat.
Lethal Shock (Su): Whenever two or more shocker lizards are within 20 feet of each other, they can work together to create a lethal shock. This effect has a radius of 20 feet, centered on any one contributing lizard. The shock deals 2d8 points of electricity damage for each lizard contributing to it, to a maximum of 12d8. A Reflex save (DC 10 + number of lizards contributing) reduces the damage by half.
the effect fills the room... but does not reveal the source
:D
Fine. Call it a "Win" if you want. I'm just saying it is equally likely that you walk in and keel over dead. And I'm also pointing out that I used a more rigid system of scrutiny on my own build.
Currently, consensus is looking like this is a loss for me.
I might try this encounter, but I'm going to add some gear and spells to the 5th level version before I do anything with it, seeing how it is almost 3000 under budget as written. I'm also going to start using some of the brilliant sneaky tactics used by some of the other casters (Unseen Servant with a shirt and hat, lol). Before I basically just did a "brute force" approach to most of it, and played my mage like a "tank", except for scouting with the bat.
Just make sure you do not metagame (wink)
Unseen servant with shirt does not work for the reasons we already posted (it is formless, etc)
round #1:
Lightning from the ceiling fills the room(unless you beat their hide check +11 with your Spot Check) you roll to save vs Electricity Damage
Check, surprise round 1 was exactly like this.
round #2:...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
Check, round one was like this.
Round #3 ...... If you are moving:
they are sure you are not dead or incapacitated.... so they Fire another Blast
check, i was keeled over, unconscious, bleeding to death.
they continue until you fall down and stop moving...remember they have been TRAINED to do this.... if you get up and attack a single lizard...they all start up again
Check, When I got up to attack a lizard, they start zapping me again.
you cant Attack them until you SPOT EACH one.... if you spot it , you can attack it, if not you could try attacking squares, but unless to target the correct square ... they are unharmed
I dunno ... it seems to me that they are visible. (image of caronas interacting, causing the AoE blast).
they do not attack directly when using the Lethal Shock... they produce an Area Effect:
the effect fills the room... but does not reveal the source
:D
So if my wizard casts a Fireball while hiding, he isn't revealed? That's nice.
I disagree, totally. An attack is anything that breaks an Invisibility spell, IMO. This would certainly qualify.
Oh, does anyone have the actual 3.5 DMG (I don't...)? Doesn't it have some standard encounter starting ranges for different types of terrain in there? This might be useful for the argument about the summoner druid vs. the manticore.
Just make sure you do not metagame (wink)
I'll try. If I do, you guys can call me on it. :P
Unseen servant with shirt does not work for the reasons we already posted (it is formless, etc)
It could carry a scarecrow/dummy, though, right? Using a "disguised" Unseen Servant to trigger traps and ambushes was brilliant, and I'm sure it can be made to work. It just might need a bit of tweeking.
So if my wizard casts a Fireball while hiding, he isn't revealed? That's nice.
I disagree, totally. An attack is anything that breaks an Invisibility spell, IMO. This would certainly qualify.
Invisibility has strict guidelines on things like that. And no, you turn visible (even using a beneficial burst spell and including an enemy in its affect turns you visible).
It could carry a scarecrow/dummy, though, right? Using a "disguised" Unseen Servant to trigger traps and ambushes was brilliant, and I'm sure it can be made to work. It just might need a bit of tweeking.
That sounds reasonable. As a halfling sorcerer, I have used prestidigitation to animate suits of clothes before (weight of clothes under weight of prestidigitation)
Btw ... Question for the group.
The DMM Cleric (another combatant who entered the kobold lair) shoots his light crossbow at the shocker lizards, but when I use my spiked chain, I need to worry about the miss chance?
The DMM Cleric (Sorry to keep picking on you, but I haven't really looked at Bela's attempt yet) says "If they do this, they kill me" and no one points anything out, but my carcass, lying down on the ground, bleeding to death -- is fair game for additional shocking?
Edit: I agree with Grizley that they should continue to shock you, also, and they should continue until you're dead. I think you fail this one, using the tactics you listed.
Btw, I am at a loss to what tactics to use, when you start with, here is 12d8 damage.
Btw ... Question for the group.
The DMM Cleric (another combatant who entered the kobold lair) shoots his light crossbow at the shocker lizards, but when I use my spiked chain, I need to worry about the miss chance?
The DMM Cleric (Sorry to keep picking on you, but I haven't really looked at Bela's attempt yet) says "If they do this, they kill me" and no one points anything out, but my carcass, lying down on the ground, bleeding to death -- is fair game for additional shocking?
I just happened to be paying attention today, but not when he posted whatever he did, I guess. :P What page was that on?
What miss chance are you talking about? Rolling a 1?
Btw, I am at a loss to what tactics to use, when you start with, here is 12d8 damage.
There are ways to survive this encounter, obviously. Not all of them would make sense for your character in particular, perhaps, though. You could use some "bait" to draw the attack. You could go in invisibly. You could somehow figure out they're going to fry you with electricity, and then get some resistance to it somehow. Some characters might actually make the Spot check to see them, or sneak past them, etc. But yeah, if you just walk in unaware, this one looks like a total killer.
I just happened to be paying attention today, but not when he posted whatever he did, I guess. :P What page was that on?
What miss chance are you talking about? Rolling a 1?
The miss chance being the "You need to spot them, else you can attack a square and hope they are there"
[edit] Hereis it
The kobolds in the other room are not able to do that. Per posted tactics, they wait until the door near them in opened. If they could join this fight, then it would be a much higher EL than it already is.
Additionally, when the DMM Cleric went through, the kobolds did not investigate. (although, for that build, it would be easier if they did investigate).
They don't join the fight. They come by 2 minutes later to pick up the loot.
The miss chance being the "You need to spot them, else you can attack a square and hope they are there"
[edit] Hereis it
Oh, I think they definitely become visible. They are shooting out enough lightning to fill the freakin' room, for Cthulu's sake.
Oh, I see what you're talking about.
Saves this time for 2-6: 540/585/630/675/720.
2, 4, 6 fail their second save, being disabled. With animal intelligence, they rush to the corners of the room and hide, or escape through the door I left behind. If they did not do this, I would die. That being said, it is highly normal for animals to retreat when being beaten.
I think this is a bit different. They are disabled. If they Shock again, they will drop into the negatives and start dying. I doubt they'd do that personally, but I can understand your objection.
It would be interesting to see if the cleric could beat it if they didn't run away. He might be able to heal himself enough to withstand the next shock, and then those three would be dying and the rest of the encounter would proceed as written. I think he could probably beat it with a slight change in his actions (heal himself instead of firing when they don't run away). I think this would be a more reasonable thing for the cleric to do, also. He doesn't know the lizards are about to die, but he does know that he's taking alot of damage, and slowly damaging them with his aura. He should be more worried about surviving that conserving resources.
I take 20 on my climb check, then rampage through the room, kobolds slaughtered by my lightning axe and my cold aura left right and center.
Didn't this encounter call for the kobolds to lob alchemist's fire or acid on someone if they tried to climb out of the pit? Taking 20 means you basically try until you roll a 20. They'd have plenty of time to bomb the cleric. I don't know if he has resistances or not (probably does). (Edit: Yeah, he has Energy Resist 17 to everything from something called Favorable Sacrifice.)
they do not attack directly when using the Lethal Shock... they produce an Area Effect:
the effect fills the room... but does not reveal the source
:D
I could buy it only revealing the focal point, but at least one has to show up. Otherwise fireballing random locations (that happen to be filled with enemies) doesn't drop invis.
Show
Extraplanar
Chraal - Light provided by Luminous armor
Init +8 v +0 (90/50) win
Druid advances 30 feet
Pouncy advances 30 feet
Chraal advances 20 feet and breathes. Assuming it can hit both..
vs Druid (+6 v dc 19 40/50) fail 21 damage
vs Pouncy ( +10 v dc 19 60/50) pass 10 damage
Druid full attacks
Claw + 11 v ac 21 (55/50) hit 11 + 24
Claw +11 (110/150) miss
Bite +6 (135/150) miss
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +14 (70/50) hit 12 + 25
Claw +14 (140/150) miss
Bite +9 (185/150) hit 7
Chrall full attacks Druid
Claw +6 v 34 ac (5/50) miss
Claw +6 (10/50) miss
Bite +4 (15/50) miss
Druid full attacks
Claw +11 (190/150) hit 11 + 24
Chrall dead
BOOM DC 19 ref or 10 phys 10 cold
Druid (+6 v 19 80/50) pass
Pouncy (+10 v 19 120/150) fail
Hp
Druid 25
Pouncy full
Chrall dead
Wand of Lesser Vigor as we get key and move on to the next encounter full hp.
Vs Trolls
Spot 21 v hide 27 fail
Init +8 v +7 (145/150) lose
Supprise round. Trolls chuck javelins
+0 javelin v ac 34 (5/50) miss
+0 javelin v ac 36 (5/50) miss
Trolls decide that isn't such a hot strategy and close in to use thier claws
Move up 60'
Druid pounces first troll
Claw +13 v ac 18 (80/50) hit 11 + 24
Claw +13 (160/150) hit 12 + 25
Bite +8 (220/250) miss
Rake +8 (280/250) 8
Rake +8 (340/350) miss
Troll is dead, also pinned
Pouncy does the same to the second troll
Both trolls have taken massive amounts of acid damage and are at -33hp
Collect key, move on
vs Boneclaw
50' intial distance due to visibility
Init +8 v +8 (195/150) win
Druid moves up 30'
Pouncy pounces the boneclaw
Boneclaw gets AoO to movement +9 v ac 34 (5/50) miss
Pouncy claw + 16 v ac 12 (95/50) hit 7 + 24
Claw +16 (190/150) hit 7 +24
Bite +11 (285/250) hit 7
Rake +11 (380/350) hit 7
Rake +11 (475/450) hit 7
Boneclaw full attacks Pouncy
+5 claw v ac34 (10/50)
+5 (15/50)
Hp
Boneclaw 22
Pouncy full
Druid full
Druid pounces Boneclaw, kills it
vs Deady blossoms
Assuming somehow the blossoms get a supprise round inspite of scent and a good spot skill...
Init +8 v +3 (265/250) win
Swarm engulfs the druid for 7 damage fort save +10 v dc 15 (80/50) not nauseated
Druid 5' steps and full attacks
Claw +11 v ac 16 (75/50) hit 24 acid
Claw +11 (150/150) 25 acid
Pouncy wacks it a couple times for good measure. Then they burn the plant with Produce Flame.
vs Boss
Sensing the final test is at hand the druid uses scroll of animal growth and potion of enlarge berfore
entering
Init +8 v +10 (305/350) lose
Boss wins init and charges the druid (I'm assuming the druid is the best thing to attack but they are
identical)
Glaive +16 v ac 34 (70/50) hit 24
Glaive +16 (140/150) miss
Glaive +16 24
hp
Druid 8
Pouncy charges the thing
It gets an AoO +16 v ac 34 (10/50) miss
Claw +16 v ac 28 (45/50) miss
Claw +16 (90/50) hit 16 +24
Bite +11 (115/150) miss
Rake +11 (130/150) miss
Rake +11 (145/150) miss
Trip +18 v 14 tripped
Grapple +20 v +21 not pinned... quite but prone
Hp
druid 8
Boss 41
Druid charges
Claw +13 v ac 28 (25/50) miss
Claw +13 (50/50) hit 12 + 24
Bite +8 (55/150)
Rake +8 60
Rake +8 65/150
Grapple +21 v grapple 21 pinned (50/50)
hp
Druid 8
Boss 5
Boss attempts to break pin Grapple +21 v +21 (50/50) succeeds
Heals to 10 hp
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +14 v ac 18(flat footed and prone) (230/150) 17 + 25
Claw +14 (315/250) 16+ 24
Bite too but its really not needed, that thing is dead dead dead
The druid got quite low on that one though it was because he (barely) lost init. If he wins init he wins
the fight undamaged. Being pounced when flatfooted is only cool when I do it.
Extraplanar
Chraal - Light provided by Luminous armor
Init +8 v +0 (90/50) win
Druid advances 30 feet
Pouncy advances 30 feet
Chraal advances 20 feet and breathes. Assuming it can hit both..
vs Druid (+6 v dc 19 40/50) fail 21 damage
vs Pouncy ( +10 v dc 19 60/50) pass 10 damage
Druid full attacks
Claw + 11 v ac 21 (55/50) hit 11 + 24
Claw +11 (110/150) miss
Bite +6 (135/150) miss
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +14 (70/50) hit 12 + 25
Claw +14 (140/150) miss
Bite +9 (185/150) hit 7
Chrall full attacks Druid
Claw +6 v 34 ac (5/50) miss
Claw +6 (10/50) miss
Bite +4 (15/50) miss
Druid full attacks
Claw +11 (190/150) hit 11 + 24
Chrall dead
BOOM DC 19 ref or 10 phys 10 cold
Druid (+6 v 19 80/50) pass
Pouncy (+10 v 19 120/150) fail
Hp
Druid 25
Pouncy full
Chrall dead
Wand of Lesser Vigor as we get key and move on to the next encounter full hp.
Vs Trolls
Spot 21 v hide 27 fail
Init +8 v +7 (145/150) lose
Supprise round. Trolls chuck javelins
+0 javelin v ac 34 (5/50) miss
+0 javelin v ac 36 (5/50) miss
Trolls decide that isn't such a hot strategy and close in to use thier claws
Move up 60'
Druid pounces first troll
Claw +13 v ac 18 (80/50) hit 11 + 24
Claw +13 (160/150) hit 12 + 25
Bite +8 (220/250) miss
Rake +8 (280/250) 8
Rake +8 (340/350) miss
Troll is dead, also pinned
Pouncy does the same to the second troll
Both trolls have taken massive amounts of acid damage and are at -33hp
Collect key, move on
vs Boneclaw
50' intial distance due to visibility
Init +8 v +8 (195/150) win
Druid moves up 30'
Pouncy pounces the boneclaw
Boneclaw gets AoO to movement +9 v ac 34 (5/50) miss
Pouncy claw + 16 v ac 12 (95/50) hit 7 + 24
Claw +16 (190/150) hit 7 +24
Bite +11 (285/250) hit 7
Rake +11 (380/350) hit 7
Rake +11 (475/450) hit 7
Boneclaw full attacks Pouncy
+5 claw v ac34 (10/50)
+5 (15/50)
Hp
Boneclaw 22
Pouncy full
Druid full
Druid pounces Boneclaw, kills it
vs Deady blossoms
Assuming somehow the blossoms get a supprise round inspite of scent and a good spot skill...
Init +8 v +3 (265/250) win
Swarm engulfs the druid for 7 damage fort save +10 v dc 15 (80/50) not nauseated
Druid 5' steps and full attacks
Claw +11 v ac 16 (75/50) hit 24 acid
Claw +11 (150/150) 25 acid
Pouncy wacks it a couple times for good measure. Then they burn the plant with Produce Flame.
vs Boss
Sensing the final test is at hand the druid uses scroll of animal growth and potion of enlarge berfore
entering
Init +8 v +10 (305/350) lose
Boss wins init and charges the druid (I'm assuming the druid is the best thing to attack but they are
identical)
Glaive +16 v ac 34 (70/50) hit 24
Glaive +16 (140/150) miss
Glaive +16 24
hp
Druid 8
Pouncy charges the thing
It gets an AoO +16 v ac 34 (10/50) miss
Claw +16 v ac 28 (45/50) miss
Claw +16 (90/50) hit 16 +24
Bite +11 (115/150) miss
Rake +11 (130/150) miss
Rake +11 (145/150) miss
Trip +18 v 14 tripped
Grapple +20 v +21 not pinned... quite but prone
Hp
druid 8
Boss 41
Druid charges
Claw +13 v ac 28 (25/50) miss
Claw +13 (50/50) hit 12 + 24
Bite +8 (55/150)
Rake +8 60
Rake +8 65/150
Grapple +21 v grapple 21 pinned (50/50)
hp
Druid 8
Boss 5
Boss attempts to break pin Grapple +21 v +21 (50/50) succeeds
Heals to 10 hp
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +14 v ac 18(flat footed and prone) (230/150) 17 + 25
Claw +14 (315/250) 16+ 24
Bite too but its really not needed, that thing is dead dead dead
The druid got quite low on that one though it was because he (barely) lost init. If he wins init he wins
the fight undamaged. Being pounced when flatfooted is only cool when I do it.
BTW, Natural Bond doesn't let increasing effective druid level above character level. So 5th level druids are stuck with 4HD fleshrakers.
It doesn't increase druid level over charecter level.
But it does negate the penalty to druid level for having a stronger pet.
Druid normally give thier companion +2 hd at level 5, so its natural hd + the companion hd = 6hd.
It doesn't increase druid level over charecter level.
But it does negate the penalty to druid level for having a stronger pet.
I disagree with this reading of the feat.
No hiring mercs, no dominating the rival PC party, no writing up optomized characters to buff you. Probably also no animals beyond a mount for those with class abilities that provide them or ride ranks spent. Handle animal could also provide a pet perhaps, but only a normal one bought off equipment lists and probably only one (mount or pet, not both. skill ranks are not THAT valuable)
That would be my preference anyway.
My take on shocker lizards is they do reveal themselves when zapping. The electricity fills the area but the source is obvious. The drawings support this view, and as a rule, abilities that attack or do damage are visible and source is visible unless they say they aren't.
Here is IHSAMPTYECM vs the extraplanar challenge
[/sblock]
Got a gripe on the trolls.
They would charge. They are explicitly set up so that they are not in hindered terrain and even a single claw does far more damage than the javelin. This allows them their full attack on next round. Javelins are if you fly or something.
This would take away your pounce, as they're right next to you. You probably still win, but it certainly makes it harder.
In the final fight it is not at all clear that pouncy can pounce. The critter is a 10x5 large, which means his reach weapon is only 10' long. if you enter next to your pet, pet is only 5' away, can't pounce. If pet is in front or you are in front, you block the charge lane for the other.
My feedback to Otto is that he should lose the glaive and get a greatsword. That way he can attack with all his paws too on the charge, which would have killed the druid outright.
Again, I don't know if it would make much diff, but given that the druid was in 8hp after the pounce and you relied on two pounces of your own to get the victory, I suspect the druid might well have died, and if the pet won, it would be all alone (do bonded mounts stay bonded-tough after the druid dies?)
Now, per the encounter, it says that they are trained to electric zap for the kill ... however, the creatures say that they will bite if the zap is ineffective ... so they will be biting me.
They would zap a few more times before they thought it was ineffective.
They would zap a few more times before they thought it was ineffective.
I'd say ineffective is that you didn't take meaningful damage. None or a few hp.
Someone who lost a chunk of his hitpoints would make involuntary noises and thrashings that would show that it was effective, but just not strong enough. How much is "meaningful" you can debate. For me it's probably anything over 20% of the total hp including temp hp. That'll still kill most things faster than their bite attacks will.
I'd say ineffective is that you didn't take meaningful damage. None or a few hp.
Someone who lost a chunk of his hitpoints would make involuntary noises and thrashings that would show that it was effective, but just not strong enough. How much is "meaningful" you can debate. For me it's probably anything over 20% of the total hp including temp hp. That'll still kill most things faster than their bite attacks will.
I posted two versions ... one where they kept zapping .. and one where they didn't.
In the one where they didn't ... I took zero damage. None. from the initial zap.
But either way ... I am looking for consensus to know if I ran the zapping version correctly ...
So if you took nothing from the first two, they'd likely try again when there was 3, cause it's stronger. If you still took none, they'd probably give up.
They're not very bright, but they do know they zap harder when they're all together.
If they had ogre+ intelligence they might have some inkling of abilites like evasion or cloak of elemental resistance and try a second time just to be sure.
There is such a huge difference between their zaps and their bite that they'd want to give it a fair try IMHO.
silly
Gurth Dead Walker (7th Level)
Spoiler
Precious Resources:
Quick Summary:
First part of the dungeon goes fairly fast. Undead Skeleton sentinals. Electrocution therapy and then some fun in the barracks where one Minotaur Zombie has a sort of close call demonstrating how the pit works and acid flasks burn. Finding out about hallway stuff by controlling (through casting command undead) a kobold turned into shadow by his rebuked one. Using swarms and undead summonings to use the rest of the wands. Tries out the hallway with his shock trooper. Finally the epic ending battle. Fairly close...Yip-Yip runs out of spells that can do anything and then life gets better.
I'll of course edit based on comments and suggestions to correct for errors and bad neurons.
Precious Resources:
- spells: 7/6/4
- Undead Entourage: Shadow, Minotaur Zombie * 2 (he quested for these. if you follow the chain he has done this by himself -> Killed the 4 Ogres as a Level 5 and fell animating two of them, now quests/adventures and obtains shadow and two minotaur. These were not given nor purchased but rather quested for with description of how it was done. Not too unlike a druid going out to get an animal companion.
Quick Summary:
First part of the dungeon goes fairly fast. Undead Skeleton sentinals. Electrocution therapy and then some fun in the barracks where one Minotaur Zombie has a sort of close call demonstrating how the pit works and acid flasks burn. Finding out about hallway stuff by controlling (through casting command undead) a kobold turned into shadow by his rebuked one. Using swarms and undead summonings to use the rest of the wands. Tries out the hallway with his shock trooper. Finally the epic ending battle. Fairly close...Yip-Yip runs out of spells that can do anything and then life gets better.
I'll of course edit based on comments and suggestions to correct for errors and bad neurons.
Encounter 1:
Gurth> Casts False Life to get 11.5 temporary hit points
Gurth> Casts Summon Undead I for a human skeleton, using up a 1st level spell. Sends it forth into the entrance. Shocker lizards are identified.
Gurth> Positions Minotaur Zombies to guard exit for fleeing lizards...and proceeds to thin the crowd, casting three scare spells. The shocker lizards have a 35% chance of making their saves, so 3.9 (just say 2) to show it is not a problem of the 6 that were targeted by the three spells are basically removed from combat.
Gurth> Sends the Minotaur Zombies in to finish off the remaining 4.
Round 1:
Minotaur Zombies> Move into position
Shocker Lizards> Zapppp. For simplicity assume missed saves and just have them do 36 damage (4 lizards * 2d8 each)
Minotaur Zombies Status> 81 Hit Points
Round 2:
Minotaur Zombies> Minotaur Zombies kill two shockers...90% hit chance - 'The ring of darkhidden' isn't helping...too much light from the lightning.
Shocker Lizards> Zapppp. For simplicity assume missed saves and just have them do 18 damage (2 lizards * 2d8 each)
Minotaur Zombies Status> 63 Hit Points
Round 3:
Minotaur Zombies> Minotaur Zombies kill two shockers...
Gurth> Commands shadow to seach for passage/door/something to get in while he attends to his precious wounded zombies.
Gurth> Heals up Minotaur Zombies using Charnel Touch.
Gurth> Casts False Life to get 11.5 temporary hit points
Gurth> Casts Summon Undead I for a human skeleton, using up a 1st level spell. Sends it forth into the entrance. Shocker lizards are identified.
Gurth> Positions Minotaur Zombies to guard exit for fleeing lizards...and proceeds to thin the crowd, casting three scare spells. The shocker lizards have a 35% chance of making their saves, so 3.9 (just say 2) to show it is not a problem of the 6 that were targeted by the three spells are basically removed from combat.
Gurth> Sends the Minotaur Zombies in to finish off the remaining 4.
Round 1:
Minotaur Zombies> Move into position
Shocker Lizards> Zapppp. For simplicity assume missed saves and just have them do 36 damage (4 lizards * 2d8 each)
Minotaur Zombies Status> 81 Hit Points
Round 2:
Minotaur Zombies> Minotaur Zombies kill two shockers...90% hit chance - 'The ring of darkhidden' isn't helping...too much light from the lightning.
Shocker Lizards> Zapppp. For simplicity assume missed saves and just have them do 18 damage (2 lizards * 2d8 each)
Minotaur Zombies Status> 63 Hit Points
Round 3:
Minotaur Zombies> Minotaur Zombies kill two shockers...
Gurth> Commands shadow to seach for passage/door/something to get in while he attends to his precious wounded zombies.
Gurth> Heals up Minotaur Zombies using Charnel Touch.
Here is IHSAMPTYECM vs the extraplanar challenge
[/sblock]
Got a gripe on the trolls.
They would charge. They are explicitly set up so that they are not in hindered terrain and even a single claw does far more damage than the javelin. This allows them their full attack on next round. Javelins are if you fly or something.
It says they throw javelins on the supprise round. On the first round they are 90' away and have a move of 30. They can either advance 60' or throw more javelins. As you say it doesn't really matter what they do, they can't hit either dino and both dinos can nearly drop them on a single attack let alone a full suite of attacks.In the final fight it is not at all clear that pouncy can pounce. The critter is a 10x5 large, which means his reach weapon is only 10' long. if you enter next to your pet, pet is only 5' away, can't pounce. If pet is in front or you are in front, you block the charge lane for the other.
If we enter adjacent to each other the boss charges and stops 20' from the druid. Then Pouncy charges 10-15' and opens a can. Same deal on the druids round. Its still legit for me to pounce due to the critters reach.My feedback to Otto is that he should lose the glaive and get a greatsword. That way he can attack with all his paws too on the charge, which would have killed the druid outright.
This is true, but I have 2 items to add to that.
1. He would kill the druid if he charged him, but he would still bounce off Pouncy. I feel pretty confident vs the critter given true randomness. I have a 40% to win init and a 50% he charges the dino that shrugs him off. If he starts too close for either dino to charge that makes it a little closer, but in that case he still eats 2x full attack and is just about killed, a little luck and he is toast.
2. If you metagame an encounter to defeat just me, I win. ;) If I remeber right the glaive makes him kill the DMM cleric instead of lose, and makes him lose to IHSAMPTYECM.[
Again, I don't know if it would make much diff, but given that the druid was in 8hp after the pounce and you relied on two pounces of your own to get the victory, I suspect the druid might well have died, and if the pet won, it would be all alone (do bonded mounts stay bonded-tough after the druid dies?)
Like you say, if the boss had finished the druid off the pet would have still killed him. Barring house rules like a casters spells dropping when they die or something. Even if Pouncy lost the benefits of being a companion he should still have enough Oomph to do the last 5 damage.
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I don’t, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
Can you provide the character link? Why weren't you 'surpised' since you are wandering around the manticore's domain where it has plenty of cover and nice hiding spots. Do you have a great spot and hide?
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I don’t, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.
(This is the only URL I could find for it, under "Swift and Immediate Actions.")
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
I fail my reflex save (DC 14 vs +5, 60%, 110%) taking 8d8 (36) damage. This brings me to -3.
End of Round 1: Me: -3, Them: 4 alive.
Round 2:
I attempt to stabilize (10%, 10%), fail and take 1 damage.
They mill around on the ceiling.
End of round 2: Me: -4, Them : 4 alive
Round 3:
I attempt to stabilize (10%, 20%), fail and take 1 damage.
They mill around on the ceiling.
End of round 2: Me: -5, Them : 4 alive
Round 4:
I attempt to stabilize (10%, 30%), fail and take 1 damage.
They mill around on the ceiling.
End of round 2: Me: -6, Them : 4 alive
Round 5:
I attempt to stabilize (10%, 40%), fail and take 1 damage.
They mill around on the ceiling.
End of round 2: Me: -7, Them : 4 alive
Round 6:
I attempt to stabilize (10%, 50%), succeed and HEAL 1 damage. (aura re-starts).
They mill around on the ceiling.
End of round 2: Me: -6, Them : 4 alive
Why wouldn't they zap you once more to be sure? Animals can play dead. Usually they are thorough in their kill.
It says they throw javelins on the supprise round. On the first round they are 90' away and have a move of 30. They can either advance 60' or throw more javelins.
It did? I missed that. Would have made a big diff in the Bela fight, because I would have gotten a round of horse actions instead of having it killed before I could move.If we enter adjacent to each other the boss charges and stops 20' from the druid. Then Pouncy charges 10-15' and opens a can. Same deal on the druids round. Its still legit for me to pounce due to the critters reach.
2. If you metagame an encounter to defeat just me, I win. ;) If I remeber right the glaive makes him kill the DMM cleric instead of lose, and makes him lose to IHSAMPTYECM.
I'm going to say it again. The creature is large with 10x5 reach. 5' base reach, like a centaur or animal. That means its reach weapon, size large, only has 10' of reach (and its others only 5' of reach).
There are centaur PC's in a campaign were I play, so I'm pretty familiar with this bizzare rules behavior. Large reach weapons don't add X feet of reach, they double whatever reach the creature has. Same reason monkey grip doesn't let a medium critter get 15' of reach with a large reach weapon.
That's too close to charge. You (and the author) assume it has 20' reach. You would both be wrong, by the statblock provided.
I agree you can both pounce (assuming you are next to pouncy, not ahead or behind) if it wasn't a 10x5 reach critter for the reasons stated.
(This is the only URL I could find for it, under "Swift and Immediate Actions.")
The definition of immediate action itself (read any of the books it is in, or view the FAQ which reprints the rule) says you can't take it if you are flatfooted.
The only exceptions being immediate action spells that explicitly say you can use them when flatfooted or as part of rolling init, such as feather fall or nerveskitter.
It is, and it is a way anyone will have day-long spells very cheaply. Expect my next meleer to have a dozen persistent spells cast by mercenary incantatix at negligible cost
Can't. Spells of fixed or personal range. I think there are a few fixed spells out there that can definitely be persisted on other people - Vigorous Circle comes to mind...but the list gets significantly smaller.
Plus they'd be paying twice. A level 3 spell CL 10 = 300 gold.
Then a level 3 metamagic effect, CL 10 = 300 more gold.
(CL 10 was arbitrary. Just showing how the cost is higher for melee).
To each his own I guess. Looks like all the builds could hire a cleric with divine metamagic to persist 'Favorable Sacrifice' for them.
Favourable Sacrifice has a range of touch, so it can't be persisted.
It also has 1 hour/level duration, which seems a little odd.
It would also cost 150 (3, CL 5 (min)) gp + 300 for the persist.
The second of Meyer's characters abuses cheapened buffs, and they can even be abused more by using sanctum spells and incantatrix. I suspect we can have level 10 spells at the cost of level 3 spells in magic-mart. I find that ridiculous in extreme, but it was done by Ikeren for a caster build, and if Meyer allows it, well...
Wait, I didn't do any funky, spells at lower level things, mage slayer, etc. I just bought them as is, assuming the average Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 casts them. Not a Wizard5/Incantatrix 2 outside their sanctum with mageslayer. That is a ridiculous comparison.
Kind of ... between your character and my character. If the DM tosses CR5s or some of the CR6s ... my character begins to pull ahead of your character in money very quickly.
Certain CR6 and CR7 encounters (where I would die), you pull ahead of my character ...
Living is always better then dying.
In a team (party) environment, things like ghoul glyph or elemental damage are not as hard to recover from as in a solo environment.
I can do it solo. Can you?
Your cleric, who persists 1 or 2 rounds duration spells (like your DR) the designers of DnD never forsaw persisted, is powerful, but he hasn't accomplished anything noncasters can't yet.
Yes it has. Defeating CR 7 encounters.
And uhm, all my spells were printed after CDiv and CArc - most of them are Spell Compendium or PHB 2. They knew the material existed. They even knew the "No touch spells" and "Fixed range" errata (and you see this take effect. Look at Weapon of the Deity in CDiv, then Weapon of the Deity in SpC. Ones Range: 0 feet, the next is Range: Touch.)
1st:aberrant dragonmark:shield
flaw1:mark of madness
flaw2:mark of xoriat
Location of that material please?
the Forest trolls surprise my 22 ff AC (tower shield), maybe a jav hits, maybe it manages to overcome my permanent 5/byesh DR, but the poison is delayed. The fight starts, dwarf giant dodge kicks in, vs a shield+onehanded the trolls land on 20 or so, and they barely overcome the DR. It's painfully slow, but maneuvers let me kill the first troll and then I can switch to greatsword and stance of clarity to finish the second troll faster. Heal a bit with wand.
the Chraal breathes 3 times vs cold resist 20, doing a few points of damage. Then I use step of the wind and fire to kill it, running away to heal if needed (doubtful).
the Dread Blossoms surprise me and are faster than me, so it's nausea check every turn (easy) and 2 damage. Poison is delayed. They die in flames soon enough.
the Boneclaw is problematic. It's clear I'm going to use my first frenzy for the day, stance of clarity too, but even so it's a pitched battle. Will run it when my character is completed, and after that the final boss.
PS. drink antitoxin after the adventure and save v. poisons on 2 or higher.
Actually run it. None of that gives any sort of useful information.
I bet five bucks the guy who designed the DR spell had no idea what DMM Persist is.
Can't blame me for WotC not cross-referencing correctly. I just use their rules to demonstrate casters superiority.
Im not so sure about this. Buying a metamagiced spell is one thing, but thats not what you're doing, really. You're buying a use of a class ability.
The Coop ability isn't a spellslot, its int mod+3 per day, Im not sure how that would be priced. I could definitely see a incantatrix on the streetcorner slinging this, right beside the guy handing out pao's, but..
Pao is guaranteed, a level 7 incantatrix would have to roll a 39 dc spellcraft check to persist a first level spell, level 15 would have to beat 36.
A 7th level incantatrix would have probably an 18 or 20 int (16 base, +2 elf, +2 item) That's 8 times per day. That's more spells of any level then the caster has. It's twice his base 1st level and 2nd level (although not including bonus spells).
That's why I just used substitution: Sub on 3rd level spell - DC 27
Empower on a 3rd level spell: 33
Maximize on a 3rd level spell: 36
10 ranks + 5 int + 5 item (competence) +2 item
I have a CL of 8 at that point, and have 2 free second level slots for moment of insight. That means his base roll can be 30 for the latter 2. I also have guidance, which means another +1 for all 3.
Roll 1: 85% chance of success
Roll 2: 95% chance of success
Roll 3: 80% chance of success
Amalgamate: 85/180/260 - 3 successes.
Let's see the melee classes buff their friends Skill checks? Oh wait.
The above is a tie, based on what I bolded.
So you are suggesting that animals, when reduced to 0 (Disabled), would not flee? Let me find the SRD animal entry.
These creatures generally operate on instinct, driven by simple needs such as food and reproduction. Most animals, even predators, do not attack unless they or their young are threatened.
Animals are not capable of detailed reasoning, although with the Handle Animal skill it is possible to tame an animal and teach it to perform certain tricks.
Some herbivorous animals do not normally use their natural weapons to attack. As such, their natural weapons are treated as secondary attacks. The animal’s attack and damage entries note this fact, with an explanatory footnote.
Per this, this is not a success, as there are a lot of possible points of damage, it is conceivable that you might be damaged. You are currently at the bottom of the pit, getting ready to climb out.
What are you talking about? 12 kobolds, will deal an average of 3 damage every 4 rounds. I have 46-11 = 35 hit points left. That means an average of 48 rounds before they kill me. Assuming every crit confirms. Assuming I never heal.
You're telling me I can't suceed on that? Fine, say I have a 5% chance of climbing out - natural 20. 20 rounds, I've taken 15 more damage. I'm out.
Or, I could pull out my crossbow. I have a +7 to hit with an average damage of 1d8+3. They have AC 15. I have a 65% chance to hit. 2/3rds. That means they last for 18 rounds - after 18 rounds, they're dead. From me sitting there letting them throw acid on me, and me shooting back.
Where's your "massive source of damage?"
"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
I vote no to both as well.
Why? Because I can definitely beat CR 5 and some CR 6 without all those items. If we do vote this way, I'll do another build and demonstrate it. It'll be quicker and easier, and I my knowledge of destroying things with clerics gets better by the moment.
Meanwhile, it will reduce a melee success (PAO) while allowing casters (Alter Self) to maintain their strength.
Furthermore, I only did the buying as hypothetical optimization, to demonstrate how a caster in a city with some help can easily destroy CR level +2 encounters. Solo, I think I could consistently do CR level +1 encounters, with the exception of Tauric MoL's. CR 6? That's jjust wild.
I thought he'd done it with self-buffs and bizzare consumables, which would be fine.
Lots of that, too.
I am barely trying, just pointing out how broken is allowing the player to decide the feats and use abilities of the NPC caster as Ikeren was doing.
I didn't use mage slayer, sanctum, or anything like that. I picked an incantatrix build that was simple and reasonable, and bought services based on that.
Extend and persist don't stack like that. Persist is 24 hours.
PhaedrusXY said there was errata indicating there was about 30 pages ago. I assumed I couldn't, and he said "You're wrong, this is the correct version." I've since been looking for the ruling.
I do find it amusing to note though, that everyone is raging at how stupidly powerful incantatrix's can be at level 7. I'm glad to see I am proving my point. There seems to be this mindset "OMG BUYING SPELLS IS SO POWERFUL therefore CASTERS AREN'T THAT POWERFUL." If casters aren't that powerful, why is everyone buying spells from them? Surely melee characters can do this devoid of spells? Spells are clearly within the domain of spell casters.
Now, per the encounter, it says that they are trained to electric zap for the kill ... however, the creatures say that they will bite if the zap is ineffective ... so they will be biting me. It is obvious to them that they will die from my reach weapon if they don't do something and as they saw, their electric attack is not effective versus me.
You called me on having them retreat at 0 hp, saying they'd be smarter then that, and they wouldn't be able to figure out that when you dive around to avoid the shock, maybe trying once or twice more should work?
You then have them
I fail my reflex save (DC 14 vs +5, 60%, 110%) taking 8d8 (36) damage. This brings me to -3.
End of Round 1: Me: -3, Them: 4 alive.
Ignoring your corpse for 30 rounds? Really? You think they might not be smart enough to recognize the trick and shock you once or twice more for good measure?
They are smart enough not to retreat when at 0 HP, disabled, because they know that I am close to death. But they can't recognize evasion/reflex save to avoid their blast, and they can't recognize an unconscious victim?
One way or the other.
Purchasing class abilities: Right out. No way. If you want to apply Incantrix shenanigans, you be the Incantrix and co-op the spells being cast on you. Same with Frenzy, etc. If it has a price already, we can at least argue that it's underpriced. With no price listed, we can't just assume it's free.
Can't - 5 level limit. Otherwise I would have submitted an incantatrix already.
The DMM Cleric (another combatant who entered the kobold lair) shoots his light crossbow at the shocker lizards, but when I use my spiked chain, I need to worry about the miss chance?
The DMM Cleric (Sorry to keep picking on you, but I haven't really looked at Bela's attempt yet) says "If they do this, they kill me" and no one points anything out, but my carcass, lying down on the ground, bleeding to death -- is fair game for additional shocking?
I'm fine with this. I was honest up front that I am under the impression animals retreat when disabled and at 0 hp. If you disagree, that puts me at 2 losses and 28 successes against CR 6 and 7 encounters.
I may have died anyways - I also assumed, like Meyer's, that a bright shock filling the room would allow me to see the creatures producing the shock. Wouldn't they glow bright blue or something?
Btw, I am at a loss to what tactics to use, when you start with, here is 12d8 damage.
Energy resistance. Evasion and a high reflex save (+12 - +14)
(Edit: Yeah, he has Energy Resist 17 to everything from something called Favorable Sacrifice.)
Spell Compendium page 89 + Guardinal Feather from Complete Champion. Look up favourable sacrifice though. It is a really sweet spell. I am glad I found that gem (pun intended - the spell requires gems. Get it? Gem...ha!)
Here is IHSAMPTYECM vs the extraplanar challenge
Extraplanar
Chraal ...
... dead
Ok.
Vs Trolls
Spot 21 v hide 27 fail
I missed how spot ended up at 21. Looking back at the druid, I see 8 ranks, +2 wisdom
[trolls] Collect key, move on
Ok.
vs Boneclaw
50' intial distance due to visibility
Init +8 v +8 (195/150) win
Druid moves up 30'
Pouncy pounces the boneclaw
Boneclaw gets AoO to movement +9 v ac 34 (5/50) miss
Pouncy claw + 16 v ac 12 (95/50) hit 7 + 24
Claw +16 (190/150) hit 7 +24
Bite +11 (285/250) hit 7
Rake +11 (380/350) hit 7
Rake +11 (475/450) hit 7
Boneclaw full attacks Pouncy
+5 claw v ac34 (10/50)
+5 (15/50)
+9 to hit, not +5. Still only +5% toward getting in a hit, but accuracy counts. He's not tripped, not grappled, so the penalty didn't come from there.
vs Deady blossoms
Assuming somehow the blossoms get a supprise round inspite of scent and a good spot skill...
Init +8 v +3 (265/250) win
The encounter doesn't say it gets surprise, it says it swirls up around you. I.e., already in your space.
Swarm engulfs the druid for 7 damage fort save +10 v dc 15 (80/50) not nauseated
Druid 5' steps and full attacks
Claw +11 v ac 16 (75/50) hit 24 acid
Claw +11 (150/150) 25 acid
claw 4.25 damage (half from slashing attacks) + 17.5 acid = 21.75
claw 4.25 damage (half from slashing attacks) + 17.5 acid = 21.75
bite +7 v. AC 16 (210%) miss
tail +7 v. AC 16 (270%) hit for 3.5 damage + 17.5 acid = 21
HP: -19.5
burn it with produce flame
Spells:
1
Magic Fang x 2
Speak with Animals
Cure light wounds
2
Cat's grace
Bear's endurance
Bull's strength
3
Venomfire
You're burning it with an item perhaps?
No matter, coup de grace.
Accuracy counts
And a fleshraker can manipulate and turn the keys?
Interesting.
Init +8 v +10 (305/350) lose
Boss wins init and charges the druid (I'm assuming the druid is the best thing to attack but they are identical)
Glaive +16 v ac 34 (70/50) hit 24
Glaive +16 (140/150) miss
Glaive +16 24
Charge +20/+20/+15, not +16/+16/+16
Also, re: AC 34, Meyer's link is to an old version then. Please give the current link so that can be added to post #1.
and
All:
Please put links to your fights in the posts that contain your build. This will make things much easier for everyone involved.
hp
Druid 8
Pouncy charges the thing
It gets an AoO +16 v ac 34 (10/50) miss
It's last attack was 210/150 for 24 damage against the druid, right?
AoO becomes 280/250, hits pouncy for 24
Claw +16 v ac 28 (45/50) miss
Claw +16 (90/50) hit 16 +24
Bite +11 (115/150) miss
Rake +11 (130/150) miss
Rake +11 (145/150) miss
Trip +18 v 14 tripped
v. AC 26 (charge gives -2)
Tauric guardian: +10 Strength, +4 legs, +4 size = +18
Druid takes 1d4 electricity damage (2.5) each time he hits the tauric monster.
"When a fleshraker charges a foe, it can make a full attack including one rake attack"
Grapple +20 v +21 not pinned... quite but prone
45/55 to resist the grapple, so not grappled.
Hp
druid 8
druid 5.5
Boss 41
Druid charges
Claw +13 v ac 28 (25/50) miss
Claw +13 (50/50) hit 12 + 24
Bite +8 (55/150)
Rake +8 60
Rake +8 65/150
Grapple +21 v grapple 21 pinned (50/50)
v. AC 22 (charge, prone)
105% to resist grapple (fails)
hp
Druid 8
Druid 3
Boss 5
Boss attempts to break pin Grapple +21 v +21 (50/50) succeeds
155% succeeds
Heals to 10 hp
Makes use of his attacks against Druid. Use solbergb's grapple explanation. He's in a grapple, not pinned and can attack. If he hits and kills the druid (-10 hit points or lower), pouncy becomes a normal fleshraker, not an animal companion.
I'm not sure if he gets a single attack (as a secondary weapon) or more, so I'll defer to solbergb on this one.
Pouncy full attacks
Claw +14 v ac 18(flat footed and prone) (230/150) 17 + 25
Claw +14 (315/250) 16+ 24
Bite too but its really not needed, that thing is dead dead dead
The druid got quite low on that one though it was because he (barely) lost init. If he wins init he wins
the fight undamaged. Being pounced when flatfooted is only cool when I do it.
The short version is the druid wins, consumables used include a potion of enlarge person and a scroll of animal growth. I didn't actually end up spellcasting which is a little odd. The encounter that was close was too fast to cast and the others didn't threaten enough to warrent casting.
Boss fight vs that tauric thing was pretty rough, the druid got down to 8hp when charged while flat footed but pinned it before it got to go again and tore it up. If the boss choses the wrong dino he goes down while only dealing ~20 damage thanks to pouncys higher ac and DR.
Pouncy also takes some damage from raging blood.
I think you'd still win, but some things are incorrect.
My feedback to Otto is that he should lose the glaive and get a greatsword. That way he can attack with all his paws too on the charge, which would have killed the druid outright.
Again, I don't know if it would make much diff, but given that the druid was in 8hp after the pounce and you relied on two pounces of your own to get the victory, I suspect the druid might well have died, and if the pet won, it would be all alone (do bonded mounts stay bonded-tough after the druid dies?)
I knew it would be good against some, less good against others, when I chose the glaive. It's just the trade-off of choosing reach v. choosing a better damage base (3d6).
I'm not going to change the encounter at this time. We understand that with the pounce it would be dealing more damage against the druid, but perhaps not against the DMM cleric. I feel it would be unfair to the few contestants that have tried to change the encounter after the fact.
In order to make it harder still, I would remove the raging blood and give it spellcasting (allowed vial the monster of legend) for magic weapon, bull's strength, bear's endurance, etc.
I would have also given it the treasure of a CR 6 encounter. Unless people want to call it CR 7, then it gets even more treasure. But I'm not going to do that either.
Wait, I didn't do any funky, spells at lower level things, mage slayer, etc. I just bought them as is, assuming the average Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 casts them. Not a Wizard5/Incantatrix 2 outside their sanctum with mageslayer. That is a ridiculous comparison.
It is more taking the example to extreme ...
Living is always better then dying.
I completely agree.
I can do it solo. Can you?
I cannot beat the extra-planar thing, nor can I beat the CR7, but I am working on the attempts. However, I am using my original character
Actually run it. None of that gives any sort of useful information.
That was a skeletal build ... he is not ready to run it for real.
Can't blame me for WotC not cross-referencing correctly. I just use their rules to demonstrate casters superiority.
I agree completely -- and said so.
Let's see the melee classes buff their friends Skill checks? Oh wait.
Grin ... Aid other.
So you are suggesting that animals, when reduced to 0 (Disabled), would not flee? Let me find the SRD animal entry.
Dunno ... They might/might not ... per encounter, they are trained to attack via the electric thing until they defeat the enemy. (Or something like that).
What are you talking about? 12 kobolds, will deal an average of 3 damage every 4 rounds. I have 46-11 = 35 hit points left. That means an average of 48 rounds before they kill me. Assuming every crit confirms. Assuming I never heal.
You're telling me I can't suceed on that? Fine, say I have a 5% chance of climbing out - natural 20. 20 rounds, I've taken 15 more damage. I'm out.
Or, I could pull out my crossbow. I have a +7 to hit with an average damage of 1d8+3. They have AC 15. I have a 65% chance to hit. 2/3rds. That means they last for 18 rounds - after 18 rounds, they're dead. From me sitting there letting them throw acid on me, and me shooting back.
The problem is, that if they damage you, you need to make a climb check. If you fail, you fall down again (taking damage and needing to start climbing again). I am not saying you cannot win, just that you cannot win as you posted ... (there is a penalty for failure, so no taking 20).
Why? Because I can definitely beat CR 5 and some CR 6 without all those items. If we do vote this way, I'll do another build and demonstrate it. It'll be quicker and easier, and I my knowledge of destroying things with clerics gets better by the moment.
Keep in mind, I like your DMM Cleric ... with some changes I could see it in a party with me (toned down of course).
I do find it amusing to note though, that everyone is raging at how stupidly powerful incantatrix's can be at level 7. I'm glad to see I am proving my point. There seems to be this mindset "OMG BUYING SPELLS IS SO POWERFUL therefore CASTERS AREN'T THAT POWERFUL." If casters aren't that powerful, why is everyone buying spells from them? Surely melee characters can do this devoid of spells? Spells are clearly within the domain of spell casters.
So make an incantrix build ... at level 5. The noncaster contention is that some caster builds are less than powerful until they reach a certain level. Oh, and other than the potions of flight, healing, and enlarge person, I didn't buy spells from anyone. My potions are normal enough to not even be worth talking about.
You called me on having them retreat at 0 hp, saying they'd be smarter then that, and they wouldn't be able to figure out that when you dive around to avoid the shock, maybe trying once or twice more should work?
You then have them
Ignoring your corpse for 30 rounds? Really? You think they might not be smart enough to recognize the trick and shock you once or twice more for good measure?
They are smart enough not to retreat when at 0 HP, disabled, because they know that I am close to death. But they can't recognize evasion/reflex save to avoid their blast, and they can't recognize an unconscious victim?
One way or the other.
I agree ... one way or the other. We both live ... or both die.
I posted them as not recognizing evasion and I took minimal damage.
I posted them recognizing evasion but not shocking an unconscious character bleeding to death, as I have never been in an adventure where the enemy took out the guy bleeding to death. I make no action to start healing, and there is no visible effect (glowing aura, etc) except for wounds starting to close -- unsure how much an INT 2 creature would know to look for things like vigor, as it is not common. And the tactics posted did not talk about them continuing shocking, or coming down off the ceiling to attempt to eat the body, etc ...
I'm fine with this. I was honest up front that I am under the impression animals retreat when disabled and at 0 hp. If you disagree, that puts me at 2 losses and 28 successes against CR 6 and 7 encounters.
I may have died anyways - I also assumed, like Meyer's, that a bright shock filling the room would allow me to see the creatures producing the shock. Wouldn't they glow bright blue or something?
Since your cold aura is the thing damaging it, they might not know HOW it is happening (spellcraft) but they sure know that when you entered the room, they started hurting ... but, if other people think they should retreat, I will not push the issue.
Energy resistance. Evasion and a high reflex save (+12 - +14)
I have the evasion, and my reflexes is one lower than a normal rogue ... so they are high, but not stellar. (more than 1 if he has a cloak on).
It is more taking the example to extreme ...
Oh. We'll, let's not go to the extreme here :P
I cannot beat the extra-planar thing, nor can I beat the CR7, but I am working on the attempts. However, I am using my original character
Glad to hear it. And if you expect me to be silly enough to run something hideously unoptimal I put together in 15 minutes (my first build) without reading all the material or planning out a little, you've gotten me mistaken. Changing the build demonstrates that I am looking for ways to make my character more optimal, and this is an optimization challenge.
Grin ... Aid other.
Touche, but, it's not as good as the +5+1/CL from Divine Insight...and aid another stacked on that...
I notice I keep screwing up divine insight - sometimes I get it right, and sometimes I get it wrong. For some reason I write it as +1/CL and as a +5 or or higher if I am using my caster level bumps, when it should really be +10-+15. In the last post I listed it as +8 when it should have been +13.
I really like the multi-tiered scoring someone posted way back, incidentally - the 10/8.5/6/4/2.5/1 thing.
What are you talking about? 12 kobolds, will deal an average of 3 damage every 4 rounds. I have 46-11 = 35 hit points left. That means an average of 48 rounds before they kill me. Assuming every crit confirms. Assuming I never heal.
You're telling me I can't suceed on that? Fine, say I have a 5% chance of climbing out - natural 20. 20 rounds, I've taken 15 more damage. I'm out.
You will take 12 points of acid damage a round from the 1 point of splash damage from each one. Probably could just lob them down without being a target for your crossbow since they don't have to hit you, they just have to get w/in 5 ft. 12*5=60 damage over 5 rounds
I missed how spot ended up at 21. Looking back at the druid, I see 8 ranks, +2 wisdom
16 wisdom 8 ranks in spot I believe. Then average roll 10 makes 21 spot check.
+9 to hit, not +5. Still only +5% toward getting in a hit, but accuracy counts. He's not tripped, not grappled, so the penalty didn't come from there.
-4 to hit from Luminous armor.
The encounter doesn't say it gets surprise, it says it swirls up around you. I.e., already in your space.
Alright, not really important since it dies quickly anyway. I would have figured either spot or scent would have at least a chance of detecting it before I wandered into the swarm.
claw 4.25 damage (half from slashing attacks) + 17.5 acid = 21.75
claw 4.25 damage (half from slashing attacks) + 17.5 acid = 21.75
bite +7 v. AC 16 (210%) miss
tail +7 v. AC 16 (270%) hit for 3.5 damage + 17.5 acid = 21
HP: -19.5
I assumed it was immune to melee damage from the swarm template. It still takes acid damage though.
You're burning it with an item perhaps?
No I was using the more advanced level 7 version with natural spell.
Charge +20/+20/+15, not +16/+16/+16
Luminous armor again.
It's last attack was 210/150 for 24 damage against the druid, right?
AoO becomes 280/250, hits pouncy for 24
Correct, 14 actually unless he has a magic glaive.
Lots of small corrections that all look to be accurate.
Makes use of his attacks against Druid. Use solbergb's grapple explanation. He's in a grapple, not pinned and can attack. If he hits and kills the druid (-10 hit points or lower), pouncy becomes a normal fleshraker, not an animal companion.
He actually is pinned. As per the leaping pounce description.
Pouncy also takes some damage from raging blood.
I think you'd still win, but some things are incorrect.
True.
I agree ... one way or the other. We both live ... or both die.
I posted them as not recognizing evasion and I took minimal damage.
I posted them recognizing evasion but not shocking an unconscious character bleeding to death, as I have never been in an adventure where the enemy took out the guy bleeding to death. I make no action to start healing, and there is no visible effect (glowing aura, etc) except for wounds starting to close -- unsure how much an INT 2 creature would know to look for things like vigor, as it is not common. And the tactics posted did not talk about them continuing shocking, or coming down off the ceiling to attempt to eat the body, etc ...
Its not even that they have to notice that you aren't dead. They simply have nothing else to do but shock you, or eat you. All it takes is one of them deciding he is a little hungry and biting you and then you die.
I also believe that the kobolds would come by and collect the loot off the lizards kills on a regular basis. They know what it means when there is a bunch of screaming and zapping coming from the other room. Sure they might not run over there right away but you're lying on the ground for what 5 minutes?
Its not even that they have to notice that you aren't dead. They simply have nothing else to do but shock you, or eat you. All it takes is one of them deciding he is a little hungry and biting you and then you die.
I also believe that the kobolds would come by and collect the loot off the lizards kills on a regular basis. They know what it means when there is a bunch of screaming and zapping coming from the other room. Sure they might not run over there right away but you're lying on the ground for what 5 minutes?
Agreed...animals make sure their kill is dead. They eat or whatever. Inspect their kill and see how it tastes...maybe that is how the kobolds feed them.
Also makes sense that after some 'time' the Kobolds check on their pets, especially if they hear loud noise. If anything clean up duty to avoid diseases from rotting things.
These sort of things make solo hard. Also, the description says they all shock...6*2d8=12d8=54...not the 36 damage that looked like was being done.
If I get to have a feat I want, no problem. If I don't -
What happens if they lizards are asleep? Do they contribute to the shock? Do they fall off the ceiling (they have a climb speed, but I know when you put a flying creature to sleep it comes down ... )?
When I ran the encounter (the 7th level one), I had some questions about the lizard guys.
If I get to have a feat I want, no problem. If I don't -
What happens if they lizards are asleep? Do they contribute to the shock? Do they fall off the ceiling (they have a climb speed, but I know when you put a flying creature to sleep it comes down ... )?
;) nice. I bet the ones that are awake will wake the others up when they start shocking. Could do DC10 or DC15 will saves to wake up. Though they probably all sleep at the same time...whatever that is.
7th Level Gurth
Posts have the combats linked. Please update the main list of builds. I think these are sound. If there are objections then let me know...builds should at least be posted in the main list though as I intend to refine, tune and continue to address comments/questions/concerns/etc. I still don't see the this build in the main list. thx.
ECS and Dragonmarked.
Crypt of Creapiness 2.0 (CR6).
Encounter 1
This turns into a non-encounter/easy win. Wight cannot energy drain and Ogre Zombies are expected to kill Wight in one round with 90% and 80% chances to hit resulting in 19.8 and 17.85 damage. Gurth heals everything up with his Charnel Touch ability after the ordeal.
This turns into a non-encounter/easy win. Wight cannot energy drain and Ogre Zombies are expected to kill Wight in one round with 90% and 80% chances to hit resulting in 19.8 and 17.85 damage. Gurth heals everything up with his Charnel Touch ability after the ordeal.
16 wisdom 8 ranks in spot I believe. Then average roll 10 makes 21 spot check.
-4 to hit from Luminous armor.
Oh. I didn't realize luminous armor gave enemies a -4 to hit.
Alright, not really important since it dies quickly anyway. I would have figured either spot or scent would have at least a chance of detecting it before I wandered into the swarm.
Here's my reasoning.
It's a plant.
You're standing in a field of wildflowers and grasses.
As it begins to swirl up forming a swarm (10' x 10'), initiative is rolled.
No surprise round; the swarm has good movement, so it's likely to end any movement in the PC's square.
I assumed it was immune to melee damage from the swarm template. It still takes acid damage though.
It looks like you gave it 24 acid damage, which is incorrect if that's all it took. Only acid would be 17.5.
No I was using the more advanced level 7 version with natural spell.
Uh... that encounter was to be for the 5th level version of the characters to go through.
And, it would have still been nice to include a link to the correct 5th level druid version for comparison. I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is to check these things without all the info.
He actually is pinned. As per the leaping pounce description.
Per your description, he escaped the pin.
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.
Then he makes attacks, apparently secondary attack if I read solbergb's description correctly. This becomes dangerous territory for the druid, who is very low on hit points.
Also, on the druid's second round of attacks, the percentages are lower because he didn't get to make that second rake attack. It may not matter, as the next single hit kills it, but it should be double checked.
Oh. We'll, let's not go to the extreme here :P
Why not? Aren't we optimizing? What makes you able to decided for us what is reasonable to expect from NPCs? Why can you find just the right PrCed wizard to buff you as you want but other characters can not?
So you admit that if you don't have the incantatrix to buff you the DMM cleric fails the planar challenge? Very interesting, since my rogue does not really need a NPC caster at all.
You see, a scroll of PAO costs just 3,000 gold, and a DC 35 UMD check. A mere +15 UMD ensures that the scroll will be activated and the character will be under PAO forever. Since even rolling a 1 means only the character cannot try again for one day, given a few days anyone with +15 in UMD will succeed in activating the scroll.
It just costs 3000 gold, instead of 1200.
Its not even that they have to notice that you aren't dead. They simply have nothing else to do but shock you, or eat you. All it takes is one of them deciding he is a little hungry and biting you and then you die.
I also believe that the kobolds would come by and collect the loot off the lizards kills on a regular basis. They know what it means when there is a bunch of screaming and zapping coming from the other room. Sure they might not run over there right away but you're lying on the ground for what 5 minutes?
I am lying on the ground less then 3 minutes, but, i could pull this off with only lying there for 1 minute -- as I am not damaged later in the round (this is either metagaming on my part, or just deciding that I cannot live through another hit, so I need to kill them as soon as I hit 1 hp).
But regardless, saying that the kobolds would come and investigate changes the mini-adventure. It states they only react to the second door opening. ESPECIALLY since it takes 2 hours to find the secret door. So saying that they come in about 3 minutes to loot the body is impossible.
Also, for people talking about the lizards finishing me off because of "just in case he is playing dead"
Animals are not capable of detailed reasoning, although with the Handle Animal skill it is possible to tame an animal and teach it to perform certain tricks.
5th Level Gurth
7th Level Gurth
Posts have the combats linked. Please update the main list of builds. I think these are sound. If there are objections then let me know...builds should at least be posted in the main list though as I intend to refine, tune and continue to address comments/questions/concerns/etc. I still don't see the this build in the main list. thx.
Sorry, you have now been added.
Thanks for linking your fights to these builds, it makes validation MUCH easier.
I am unclear how the Abjurer is not hurting himself with the explosive runes?
15: Jo Pistachio: Abjurer: Success: Tactics, prepare by casting explosive runes on stuff. Follow up with reading them.
I am unclear how the Abjurer is not hurting himself with the explosive runes?
The metamagic thing he has makes it so that good creatures (like him) take no damage from his spell.
Agreed...animals make sure their kill is dead. They eat or whatever. Inspect their kill and see how it tastes...maybe that is how the kobolds feed them.
Also makes sense that after some 'time' the Kobolds check on their pets, especially if they hear loud noise. If anything clean up duty to avoid diseases from rotting things.
In the real world, guard dogs, hunting dogs, etc do not eat the food they kill/find. They are trained to leave it and only eat what their handlers give them. Additionally, animals rooting around a corpse could reduce the sale price of things (eaten leather armor costs less than normal leather armor) as well as getting rid of items (higher quality food).
These sort of things make solo hard. Also, the description says they all shock...6*2d8=12d8=54...not the 36 damage that looked like was being done.
Assuming you are referring to me ... I made my reflex save (evasion) versus the first batch. I then killed two shocker lizards, which changed it from 12d8 to 8d8 which resulted in the 36 damage I took.
You will take 12 points of acid damage a round from the 1 point of splash damage from each one. Probably could just lob them down without being a target for your crossbow since they don't have to hit you, they just have to get w/in 5 ft. 12*5=60 damage over 5 rounds
Actually, his current posted character has energy resistance to acid ... so he would not take acid damage from either the vials or the splash. The kobolds need to use their crossbows.
My character dies for the following reasons.
1) Kobolds should check ... this is not correct as it takes 2 hours to find the secret door. If they wait 2 hours, then they cannot check on me in less than the 3 minutes that I am laying on the ground.
2) Animals should be able to tell I am faking it ... I disagree. Also, bleeding to death is not faking anything. An INT 2 creature should not be capable of this level of thinking
3) Animals should make sure I am dead. Why? This is metagaming, as the only reason why this works is my fast healing. If I did not have that and regained consciousness, I would be limited to one action a round (and a standard causes me damage/fall unconscius). Any action I take would result in them realizing I am alive and zapping me again. (not held or readied actions).
4) Animals would eat my body. Why? This makes no sense per real world training habits nor is it what the mini-adventure poster posted.
But ... since consensus is that I lost ... then I am posting this one as a loss -- but continuing the mini-adventure as if I won (to see where else I can die).
even if you are able to attack each round, and kill one lizard .... you face the following:
1st round..... save vs 12d8 DC16(54 or 27 or 0 with evasion)
2nd round..... save vs 10d8 DC15(45 or 22 or 0 with evasion)
3rd round..... save vs 8d8 DC14(36 or 18 or 0 with evasion)
4th round..... save vs 6d8 DC13(27 or 13 or 0 with evasion)
5th round..... save vs 4d8 DC12(18 or 9 or 0 with evasion)
6th round..... save vs 2d8 DC12 nonlethal
as for the Animals training... notice:
COMBAT
A shocker lizard relies on its electricity abilities in combat. A lizard tends to bite only after its shock has rendered an opponent unconscious or when the shock seems to have no effect at all. A solitary lizard flees once it delivers its shocks, but if other shocker lizards are nearby, they all home in on their comrade’s discharges and attempt to administer their shocks to the foe.
they would naturally shock until creature was unconscious...then start biting...if it then starts to resist...continue shocking..... if the creature they were shocking was moving around as if unaffected... then they would bite
:D
Martial rogue 2/Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2 (will be something unholy like Rogue 2/Barbarian 1/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Champion of Corellion X/Mot9 Y)
Optimus older cousin, Cheezinator is a far better optimizer than him. Where Optimus just crushes things under the weight of PAO, Cheezinator utterly tramples them and leaves a string of crying and mind-damaged DM’s in his wake.
Cheezinator is a 300 years old otherworldly star elf from Faerun. Because those who thought only casters could cheese out old age are plain wrong. Also, 25 point build.
Str 25 (5) (base 8, -3 age, 0 points)
Dex 19 (5) (base 8, -3 age, 0 points)
Con 20 (6) (base 11, -3 age, -2 race, 3 points)
Int 22 (16) (base 14, +2 age, 6 points)
Wis 16 (base 14, +2 age, 6 points)
Cha 20 (base 15, +2 age, +2 race, +1 level, 10 points)
PAO into a planetar. Horned devil would be stronger, but prone to get him attacked very often by good guys. Plus I want good flight maneuverability, which is brutal when one has 20’ reach.
Move 15’ or 90’ flight with good maneuverability
Initiative +10 (+4 dex, +4 feat, +2 trait)
AC 34 (-1 size, -1 vulnerable, -1 aggressive, +19 natural, +4 dex, +4 armor), touch 11 (30 with scintillating scales), flat-footed 30, +2 AC when raging (whirling frenzy).
HP 57 (6+1d6+1d12+2d10+30)
Saves: fort +15, ref +12, will +8, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +2 to ref saves when raging.
Bab +4, grapple +15 (17 raging)
Attack: +11 glaive (+4 bab, +7 Str, -1 Sz, +1 magic) for 2d8+11 damage (average 20)
Attack Raging: +13 glaive (+4 bab, +9 Str, -1 Sz, +1 magic) for 2d8+14 damage (average 23) or +11/11 glaive or +12 greatsword 3d6+10 (av 20.5 damage)
Javelin +6 (+4 bab, +4 dex, -2 shaky) for 1d8+7
Armor spikes +10 for 1d8+7
Feats: Skill focus (UMD) (flaw), combat reflexes (flaw), otherworldy (1), extra rage (3), improved initiative (R1), stand still (R2), close quarters fighting (5)
Flaws: Vulnerable (-1 AC), Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks)
Traits: Aggressive (+2 initiative, -1 AC), Slow (+1hp/level, half land speed)
ACF: whirling frenzy, pounce instead of increased move, fighter feats instead of sneak attack.
Skills (55 rogue, 7 barbarian, 10 paladin)
Balance +9 (5 ranks, +4 dex), Bluff +10 (5 ranks, +5 cha), Diplomacy +17 (8 ranks, +5 cha, +2 otherworldy, +2 synergy), Gather Information +10 (5 ranks, +5 cha), Hide +5 (5 ranks, +4 Dex, -4 large), Listen +8 (3 ranks, +2 race, +3 wis), Move Silently +9 (5 ranks, +4 dex), Search + 13 (5 ranks, +2 race, +6 int), Spot +13 (5 ranks, 6 cross-class ranks, +2 race, +3 wis), Tumble +7 (5 ranks, +4 dex), Use Magic Device +19 (5 ranks, 6 cross-class ranks, +3 focus, +3 item, +5 cha), Knowledge (Religion) +7 (1 ranks, +6 int).
Gear (9000 gp available)
Scroll of PAO (spent) 3000 gp
Large mithril chainshirt with armor spikes, 1400 gp
Large glaive +1, 2318 gp
Large greatsword 100 gp
6 large javelins 12 gp
Ring of UMD +3, 900 gp
1 x Wand of Invisibility (CL3) (10c) 450 gp
2 x Wand of Faith Healing (CL1) (10c) 150 gp
1 x Wand of Scintillating Scales (CL 3) (10c) 450 gp
1 x Wand of Protection from Evil (10c) 75 gp
2 x Scroll of Shield 50 gp
Rope, torches, other typical adventurer stuff worth less than 95 gp in total.
asters.
Cheezinator buffs himself with invisibility (3 minutes of duration), protecting from evil (1 minute) and scintillating scales (3 minutes) before going through each door. He fails activation only on a 1, so at most the wand of scintillating scales will fail him the final encounter (although not by my 51% rules). The wands of faith healing and protection from evil never fail, since they are paladin spells.
The Green Door
12 rounds after the door Cheez has lost protecting from evil, but he is still invisible. The trolls can’t hear him (move silently +9 against +5 listen) before he sees them (spot +13 vs. +8 hide). The trolls die quickly as Cheez hovers 20’ over them and stabbinates the with the 20’ reach glaive. They can’t even run, since Cheez is so much faster (and has standstill). They can toss their javelins, but with a +6 to hit AC 34 they have only a 5% of hitting.
Result: Complete victory with very little chance of suffering even one hp of damage.
The White Door
The chraal is evil, so Cheez AC is 36 and he gets +2 to saves. The critter has no stealth abilities and minimal awareness skills, so I am pretty sure Cheez attacks first and by surprise. It also lacks reach, so he gets smacked from above by the 20’ long glaive and can only counter-attack with the 3/day breath and by dying.
Surprise round:
Cheez stabs the chraal flat-footed AC 21 with a +14 to hit (gets a +1 from attacking from above and +2 for attacking invisible) hits with a 7 (70%) for 15 hp.
Round 1
Cheez has +10 initiative against the chraal’s +0 and goes first. He has +12 to hit and misses (130%)
The chraal breathes forcing a DC 19 for 6d6 damage. Cheez has +14 to saves and evasion. He takes no damage (80%)
Round 2
Cheez stabs for 15 hp (190%).
Chraal breathes and fails to do anything (160%)
Round 3
Cheez misses (250%)
Chraal breathes and Cheez fails to pass the save (240%) taking 21 hp.
Round 4
Cheez stabs for 15 hp (310%)
Chraal can do nothing but surrender of flee.
Several rounds later
The Chraal explodes, forcing a DC 19 save, Cheez evades (320% or 310% if protecting from evil has expired)
Result: Cheez needs 3 charges of the wand of faith healing, easy win.
The Red Door
Cheez will benefit of 3 rounds of protection from evil since the fight starts in round 7. This guy has awesome stealth/awareness skills, but he is not using them, and Cheez is still invisible the first round and has a better initiative, so I am going first. Just no surprise this time.
Round 1
Cheez flies 20’ over the boneclaw and stabs the flatfooted loser while invisible. Hits with +14 vs. AC 12 so that is a 95% and 20 hp
Astonishingly the boneclaw has enough reach to strike back. Alas, with +7 to hit AC > 30 he misses twice (10%)
Round 2-3-4-5
The boneclaw gets hit with +12 on AC 16 (85%) or 190%, 265%, 350% (miss) and 435% or 60 hp.
The boneclaw misses all the attacks.
Round 6
The boneclaw eats 20 hp, but manages to hit for 14 hp.
Rounds 7
The boneclaw dies with 120 hp of damage without striking again.
Result: Cheez needs 2 charges of the wand to be back to perfect health.
The Blue Door
The dread blossom swarm is basically impossible to detect without knowledge (nature) so I am assuming it strikes first. Also, it is neutral, so protection from evil does nothing.
Surprise round
The swarm does 2d6 (7) hp of damage automatically (invisibility and AC irrelevant) to Cheez and forces a DC 17 fort save. Cheez has a +15 fort save and fails only on a 1 (5%).
Round 1
Cheez is faster and easily passes the save to not being nauseated (5% of failing) flies up 20’ (no AoO from a swarm), and then smacks the swarm AC 16 with a +14 to hit (95%) for 10 hp (swarms of tiny critters take half damage of slashing weapons).
The swarm moves 20’ up, provoking an AoO from Cheez that hits with +12 vs. AC 16 (85% / 180%) for 10 hp. The swarm does 7 hp more and forces another save (10%).
Round 2
Cheez dislikes saves, so he rages to finish the fight faster, passes the nauseation save (10%) and attacks twice with a +11 (80%) to 160% (hit) and 240% (miss) for 11.5 hp.
The swarm does 7 hp and Cheez passes the save (15%).
Round 3
Cheez is not nauseated (15%) and hits twice at 320% and 400% for 23 hp. Dispersing the swarm.
Result: toughest fight so far, yet Cheez needs only 3 charges of a wand of faith healing.
The Final Battle
Knowing this is going to be the toughest fight, Cheez reads a scroll of shield (10% chances of having to try again – but he has two scrolls).
Cheez is invisible, but the critter is not evil, so protecting from evil does zip.
The monster matches Cheez initiative, but Cheez is invisible and beats its listen with his move silently, so I am saying he goes first at the very least. Lets say there is no surprise.
Round 1
Cheez moves up and forward and rages, attacking the creature once with a +16 to hit (+13 base, +1 from above, +2 invisible) against AC 22 (it cannot see invisible, loses dex bonus) for a 75%, so the critter takes 23 damage
The critter heals 5 hp and strikes back with its glaive. I think he is too far for the claws (5’ reach, Cheez keeps himself at 15’) but I will let the critter full attack because both are large. It hits with Large Glaive +18/+18/+13 (2d4+15) plus claw +17 (1d6+5) plus claw +17 (1d6+5) plus bite +16 (1d8+5) against AC 40. It only hits on 20s!
Basically it hits about once in 3 rounds.
I think it is better just to do averages on the damage they do each other each round. The monster does a 10% of 2d8+15 hp, a 10% of doing 1d6+5 hp and a 5% of doing 1d8+5 hp. On average each round he does 3.725 hp to Cheez, needing 16 rounds to kill him.
Cheez will hit with +12/12 for 2d8+14 hp twice each round against AC 28 for, so he does 13.8 hp/round, of which the monster heals 5. Since it has 81 hp, it dies in round 11 or so. In those 11 round it will have hit 3-4 times for ~40damage (no electric damage since Cheez is never at 5’ of him). Likely 5 charges of a wand of faith healing.
Otto’s brutal challenge is easily beaten at the cost of 5 charges of a wand of invisibility, 5 charges of a wand of protection from evil, 4-5 charges of a wand of scintillating scales (which was useless) one scroll of shield and 11 charges of a wand of faith healing. Total being less of 600 gold pieces of consumables.
And Cheez needs no stinkeen NPC casters.
Or even ToB.
Cheezinator the Dabbler
Martial rogue 2/Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2 (will be something unholy like Rogue 2/Barbarian 1/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Champion of Corellion X/Mot9 Y)
Optimus older cousin, Cheezinator is a far better optimizer than him. Where Optimus just crushes things under the weight of PAO, Cheezinator utterly tramples them and leaves a string of crying and mind-damaged DM’s in his wake.
Cheezinator is a 300 years old otherworldly star elf from Faerun. Because those who thought only casters could cheese out old age are plain wrong. Also, 25 point build.
Argaud, this is basically the PAO rogue from before ... both rely upon PAO for the victory. Does this version replace your older version?
Argaud, this is basically the PAO rogue from before ... both rely upon PAO for the victory. Does this version replace your older version?
Kinda. The rogue was a 5 minutes character. I actually went to the books for some broken stuff to post Cheezinator. I think I had to work like 30 minutes in the character (the battles take more time, of course).
If I do 6 more versions of them I am quite sure he would be far more powerful, but I don't have the time right now.
Take this as you will.
Kinda. The rogue was a 5 minutes character. I actually went to the books for some broken stuff to post Cheezinator. I think I had to work like 30 minutes in the character (the battles take more time, of course).
If I do 6 more versions of them I am quite sure he would be far more powerful, but I don't have the time right now.
Take this as you will.
What I mean, is that these two are basically the same character, so I cannot post both as victories ... only one. Else it pads the scoreboards.
HP 57 (6+1d6+1d12+2d10+30)
You don't get bonus hit points from your Con changing with Polymorph. His hit points would be 6+1d6+1d12+2d10-5.
This was originally in the "Polymorph Errata" file, but WotC took that down with the change to the website. It was discussed in the Easy to Read Polymorph Errata thread.
You don't get bonus hit points from your Con changing with Polymorph. His hit points would be 6+1d6+1d12+2d10-5.
This was originally in the "Polymorph Errata" file, but WotC took that down with the change to the website. It was discussed in the Easy to Read Polymorph Errata thread.
Yes I do, as PAO is not based in alternate form. The 'keep hp' rule applies to wildshape, not to polymorph.
Cheezinator the Dabbler
Martial rogue 2/Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2
this proves that the CASTER who made the scroll was responsible for his success..... it required nothing that a Commoner could not do .. both REQUIRE a CASTER to be useful..... try the same thing but without using a spell .... your character would rival a Hover for sucktasticness , compared to a caster
using MAGIC requires some Caster somewhere..... if You want a real Honest Valid comparison....do this:
RULE#1: NO MAGIC except what you make yourself... for either Casters or Non-casters
.... in LOW or NO magic campaigns... casters kick everyone elses butt..... in Monty Haul super Magic saturated campaigns.... where a Magic-Mart is on every corner, and any spell casting service can be had by any commoner.... then Non-casters can do as well as casters
:D
this proves that the CASTER who made the scroll was responsible for his success..... it required nothing that a Commoner could not do .. both REQUIRE a CASTER to be useful..... try the same thing but without using a spell .... your character would rival a Hover for sucktasticness , compared to a caster
using MAGIC requires some Caster somewhere..... if You want a real Honest Valid comparison....do this:
RULE#1: NO MAGIC except what you make yourself... for either Casters or Non-casters
.... in LOW or NO magic campaigns... casters kick everyone elses butt..... in Monty Haul super Magic saturated campaigns.... where a Magic-Mart is on every corner, and any spell casting service can be had by any commoner.... then Non-casters can do as well as casters
:D
Irrelevant
In D&D everybody uses magic. Period.
Spellcasting is not "only I use magic"
"Low magic" campaigns are not standard campaigns, that is not how D&D is designed to work.
In "special" campaigns where casters automatically suffer 500 hp of damage every time they cast a spell casters are very weak and die quickly. So by your logic that proves spellcasters are very weak. Right?
Yes I do, as PAO is not based in alternate form. The 'keep hp' rule applies to wildshape, not to polymorph.
No, it was clarified for Polymorph also, separately from Wildshape. Unfortunately, they took the page down. I don't know if that means they changed their minds (I doubt it), or someone just screwed up (more likely).
With the official comments on it removed from the website for whatever reason, the only real "evidence" is the discussion of it in the thread I linked. You can choose to ignore that if you want, but a few months ago it was clear (if you were following all the Polymorph changes) that they intended for hit points to not change.
Questions in Dark Red
Answers -- and non-answers -- in Navy
1 (Tome of Battle): A character is in the stance 'Punishing Stance'. That same character activates Fire Riposte when a monster hits him. Does the Fire Riposte damage also include the +1d6 from Punishing Stance?
1) No it does not, because the extra damage from the Punishing Stance only applies to attacks.
2 (Prone): A character standing on the ground retrieves and drinks a potion of fly, then drops prone, completing his action for that round.
2A: Does he receive the bonuses and penalties from being prone (AC and attack, respectively)?
2B: Next round, he flies toward a monster that is airborne. Does he first have to stand from prone to do so, or are the penalties still applicable?
2a) Since the character is prone, all applicable rules are applied.
2b) There are no rules that apply to this particular situation, so it will be entirely up to your DM to adjudicate a house rule if he feels one is needed.
3 (Skill Trick): If the character has the Skill Trick 'Up the Hill', can he charge upward while flying, or does that only apply to ground-based movement?
3) The skill trick is limited to slopes and stairs.
4 (Weird interaction): Here's the situation; a Fleshraker dinosaur is enchanted with Magic Fang (affecting a poison attack) and Venomfire attacks a Wraith. The wraith is immune to poison. A previous CustServ ruling stated that a creature immune to poison would still take the acid damage from Venomfire. Is the acid damage considered a magical source and thus effect the wraith, or is the acid non-magical since Venomfire is just adding acid damage to a non-magical poison?
4) The Acid is not poison and will still work just fine.
4A (similar enough to #4): Does an normal arrow enchanted with Flame Arrow spell affect a wraith? (This would cover similar circumstances as well, yes?)
4a) Flame arrow says that the arrows deals extra fire damage to a target that the arrow hits. The nonmagical arrow will not hit the incorporeal creature, so the flame will not be able to hurt it either.
5 (Armor/Barding): Is barding the same as special armor for non-standard creatures regarding the amount of time it takes to don/remove the armor?
5) There are no rules that apply to this particular situation, so it will be entirely up to your DM to adjudicate.
6 (Unnatural Aura): When an animal is affected by Unnatural Aura (Wraith, etc.), does the animal panic for its entire turn, or only until it leaves the area of Unnatural Aura? Can it stop at the edge of the unnatural aura, thereby remaining 30 ft. (wraith) from the threat?
6) The Unnatural Aura ability says they are only panicked only while they are within range of the Aura. Otherwise the DM will adjudicate the normal behavior of an animal, (including how far it will flee) if affected by an instantaneous fear effect.
7 (Command Activation Item): An animal companion is outfitted with a command activation magic item.
7A: Do animals have a language (as several sources seem to indicate; speak with animals spell, familiar ability 'speak with animals of its kind')?
7B: If 'YES', can that language be used to activate command word activation magic items?
7 and 7a) No and no. Animals are not sentient beings with a language. Magic that mimics understanding and communication with animals does not change this
8 (donning/removing armor): Can a Fleshraker dinosaur don armor itself, if the armor is specially made to allow it?
8A: If yes, how is the cost determined?
8 and 8a) Ask your DM, but generally no. Perhaps a creature with opposable thumbs might be trainable to do something like this, but the DM will have to create rules to determine how it is possible.
9 (movement): During overland movement (not during initiative count), can an animal companion or familiar constantly stay next to the PC master ( i.e. simultaneous movement), or must their movement be sorted in such a way that they remain next to each other so any shared spells do not 'fall off'?
9) The game does not track where people's relative position is during the behind the scenes "overland movement" portion of the game. Tactical positioning and movement is for encounters only.
We already knew the answer to 4. I'm just posting the entire email and response.
Irrelevant
In D&D everybody uses magic. Period.
Spellcasting is not "only I use magic"
"Low magic" campaigns are not standard campaigns, that is not how D&D is designed to work.
thats like a leech thinking it was faster than any other leechs because it was attached to a dog
the question is:
Are Casters Overpowered ... Compared to NON-Casters?
but if Non-casters can only keep up with casters by making use of other casters.... all you have proven:
Casters are as strong as other casters... and they can make Weak Non-casters also as strong
it does not work the other way around
:D
thats like a leech thinking it was faster than any other leechs because it was attached to a dog
the question is:
Are Casters Overpowered ... Compared to NON-Casters?
but if Non-casters can only keep up with casters by making use of other casters.... all you have proven:
Casters are as strong as other casters... and they can make Weak Non-casters also as strong
it does not work the other way around
:D
1) Cheezinator does not use NPCs casters at all.
2) If what you mean is that the scroll was written by a caster, I remind you the paper where the spell was written was likely crafted by a commoner, as was the wizard's spellbook and the cleric holy symbol, which means by that logic the non-casters are more powerful the casters because they created the tools the casters need to do magic.
[SIZE="6"]In "special" campaigns where casters automatically suffer 500 hp of damage every time they cast a spell casters are very weak and die quickly. So by your logic that proves spellcasters are very weak. Right?
in that type of Campaign.... then spellcasters could indeed be weaker.... in fact there would be no reason for them to exist in that environment... nor any magic items..... however, i did not make that type of supposition
:D
in that type of Campaign.... then spellcasters could indeed be weaker.... in fact there would be no reason for them to exist in that environment... nor any magic items..... however, i did not make that type of supposition
:D
You made the statement that in some types of campaign (low magic campaigns, whatever that means) casters are more powerful than non-casters.
It might be true, but it is irrelevant, because D&D is a very magic-rich game were even level 5 characters can have half dozen magic items. Mid-high level characters have dozens.
And that is how the game was designed.
If you are playing some other kind of game you are going to run into major balance problems.
New rule(s) would be
"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
I vote no to both of these as well.
In fact, I vote for no caveats such as restoration or hired healing either. Helps preserve and showcase the class's -- or multiclass's -- power as its own.
1) Cheezinator does not use NPCs casters at all.
2) If what you mean is that the scroll was written by a caster, I remind you the paper where the spell was written was likely crafted by a commoner, as was the wizard's spellbook and the cleric holy symbol, which means by that logic the non-casters are more powerful the casters because they created the tools the casters need to do magic.
1)wrong .... he has to make use of the results of thier efforts
2)wrong again.... a Wizard can have ranks in Craft(papermaking), Profession(Bookmaker).... and can make everything himself, if needed... the same for the Cleric
there is NO WAY for a NON-CASTER to work magic without the Magic being supplied in a form they could use...BY A CASTER
:D
there is NO WAY for a NON-CASTER to work magic without the Magic being supplied in a form they could use...BY A CASTER
:D
False, the artificer can't cast any spell, not even a cantrip.
And the artificer is the best crafter of magic items.
Moreover there are supernatural critters that can't cast spells that are able to craft magic items.
Per voting:
1"Class abilities that are listed in PHB (Spellcasting services) are able to be purchased, per PHB"
2"Class abilities that are not listed in PHB (Incantrix coop spell, frenzied berzerker frenzy, etc) are not able to be purchased as there is no pricing guide available."
Clawhound: No to both
Ruthar: No to both
Solbergb: No to both
PhaedrusXY: No to both
Carnivore: No to both
jaerad: yes to PHB, no to the rest
Ikeren: no to both
Otto: No to both
I will post the new rules on the first page. Any character who has spells cast on them from other characters is now invalid.
No, it was clarified for Polymorph also, separately from Wildshape. Unfortunately, they took the page down. I don't know if that means they changed their minds (I doubt it), or someone just screwed up (more likely).
With the official comments on it removed from the website for whatever reason, the only real "evidence" is the discussion of it in the thread I linked. You can choose to ignore that if you want, but a few months ago it was clear (if you were following all the Polymorph changes) that they intended for hit points to not change.
Was it this stuff?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a
Frankly, if they intended to make the hp stick they could say it clearly as they say it for alternate form.
One for the same reason...the acid/xbow encounter, he never entered the room because he didn't want them surrounding him and fighting at the doorway meant he could use his wand of CLW whenever he wanted - he wanted a missile duel.
It isn't like kobolds can break down the door or even open it with him leaning on it...and the trap meant they could not even try.
With that, he could keep shutting the door and healing, opening it and shutting it. When they ran out of acid he took so little damage the main challenge was to find enough thrown weapons in his pack to finish the fight.
Then he entered the room and fell into the pit
He also beat the spell storing arrow encounter, because to discharge the spell (even if you allow illegally placing an area spell in a spell storing weapon, it only allows targeted spells), you have to hit with the arrow. Which with only 2 salvos to work with they could not do. After that it was again mostly a matter of whether they'd run out of kobolds before he ran out of thrown weapons. He had some size small crossbows from the prior fight he was going to use if he ran out of stuff to throw, but it didn't quite come to that.
Was it this stuff?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a
Frankly, if they intended to make the hp stick they could say it clearly as they say it for alternate form.
No, that's not what I'm talking about. There was an actual Polymorph Errata, and it did clearly state that hit points don't change due to Con changes when Polymorphing. You can still find (dead) links to it in that thread I linked to.
Edit: Crap... I can't even find it. I SWEAR it existed.
Then he makes attacks, apparently secondary attack if I read solbergb's description correctly. This becomes dangerous territory for the druid, who is very low on hit points.
He'd get the rake attacks, not the others. Escaping pin, he's still in a grapple.
But the rake attacks are pretty good.
NONCASTER DOES NOT MEAN NOT USING MAGIC!
Everyone in D&D uses magic. That's what wealth by level means.
No, that's not what I'm talking about. There was an actual Polymorph Errata, and it did clearly state that hit points don't change due to Con changes when Polymorphing. You can still find (dead) links to it in that thread I linked to.
I think that while you make a valid point there have been in the past horrible mistakes in the errata and have been removed in the past. such as the whole you can polymorph into a vampire issue that happened about a year ago I think it was. this is obviously not true as polymorph specifcially forbids the changing into of templated forms. If they pulled it down I think we would have to assume it was a mistake.
Also If we allow PaO in any form (from scrolls or paying for the spell casting services) I will post a spell casting character designed to utilize PaO that can't be mimiced buy fighters. I am fine with that. Just realize it opens up a whole bag of worms that we really dont need to get into for this particular challenge.
these can be found in any copy of the DMG , Pages 103-167... covering NPCs and Campaign Development
Specifically, look on page 137-139
Determining Town Size(this also shows Item availability):
Thorp: Population 20-80, .......................GP LIMIT per Item: 40gp
Hamlet: Population 81-400, .................... GP LIMIT per Item: 100gp
Village: Population 401-900, ................... GP LIMIT per Item: 200gp
Small Town: Population 901-2000, ........... GP LIMIT per Item: 800gp
Large Town: Population 2001-5000, ......... GP LIMIT per Item: 3000gp
Small City: Population 5001-12000, ..........GP LIMIT per Item: 15000gp
then look at the chart for the Highest level NPC:
community modifier
Thorp: -3
Hamlet: -2
Village: -1
Small Town: 0
Large Town: +3
Small City: +6(roll 2 times)
then look at the Character level based on comunity size:
Character level
Adept 1d6+Community Mod
Bard 1d6+Community Mod
Cleric 1d6+Community Mod
Druid 1d6+Community Mod
Sorceror 1d4+Community Mod
Wizard 1d4+Community Mod
say we use a Large Town to equip each character... then the highest level caster to have spells cast is as follows(using average, round down):
6th lvl Adept
6th lvl Bard
6th lvl Cleric
6th lvl Druid
5th lvl Sorceror
5th lvl Wizard
when you look at the wealth for NPC of these levels..... they probably wont have scrolls of PAO(uncast, if they had them ...they would use them)... nor could they even sell them
i agree that Magic is a Commodity .... however it is not as plentiful as you tend to believe....notice DMG page 142:
Magic Items
The magic items described in chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are Rare, Magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including Mid-to High level PCs. Anyone can buy and sell these items or even have Spellcasters make them to order.
how do you define Rare?
if you think that using PAO at this level is not unbalancing.... just have a commoner 5(CR 5) get one and use it on himself..... if you say that boosts his CR, then it does the same for the ECL of the Player who uses it
as for Low Magic Campaigns... ever heard of Dragonlance
:D
The latest errata doesn’t seek to “fix” polymorph. Instead, it seeks to end polymorph’s stranglehold on other elements of the game—from class features (the druid’s wild shape) to related spells (animal shapes, baleful polymorph) to the many monsters who use powers based on the same effect (such as the succubus and yuan-ti)—by revising those elements so that they can function without referring to the problematic polymorph spell. This means that players and DMs who don’t mind their spellcasters using the polymorph spell can continue to use it as written in their home games, but the number of times they come across the spell in other aspects of the game will greatly diminish.
Wizards Polymorph statement
Basically you need to decide if polymorph even exists...if it doesn't then Polymorph Any Object clearly can't duplicate the effects. Many campaigns have it simply removed. The Alternate Form replacement for the monster manual does make it so hit points don't change.
Personally, I don't use polymoph because those characters cannot be used in our campaigns and they all look the same, except the specific new ones that they came out with from the polymorph subschool that only allow a specific form.
By they all look the same, a build that uses PAO or the like is fairly similar to another build using that tweak in that the polymorphed form, and associated mods, are one of the most significant characteristics dominating the character's combat effectiveness IMHO. They are probably the most significant %change in saves, TH, AC, etc for that build.
My opinion, we need to disallow all of the polymorph tree (Shapechange, PAO, polymorph, Alterself) but allow the new "trollshape", etc that are the more balanced version
However, this would require consensus as it will invalidate 3-4 caster builds and 1 noncaster build.
So -- cast your vote, voting ends Sunday noon est. (extended time frame to allow more people to vote).
[edit] I will post any/all current votes/polls on the first page -- to help make sure that no one misses one.
New Rules:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
:D
also... what is the availability of items compared to our starting level?
:D
remember we want broken but we also want to show low level power. if the PaO rogue used scrolls or wands of alter self to change into a dwarven ancester I would actually be okay with that.
The way PAO entered this thread was in response to Otherworldly Alter Self builds ...
My opinion, we need to disallow all of the polymorph tree (Shapechange, PAO, polymorph, Alterself) but allow the new "trollshape", etc that are the more balanced version
However, this would require consensus as it will invalidate 3-4 caster builds and 1 noncaster build.
So -- cast your vote, voting ends Sunday noon est.
New Rule:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
Vote: yes - balanced spells make sense
So, here we go...
Questions in Dark Red
Answers -- and non-answers -- in Navy
1 (Tome of Battle): A character is in the stance 'Punishing Stance'. That same character activates Fire Riposte when a monster hits him. Does the Fire Riposte damage also include the +1d6 from Punishing Stance?
1) No it does not, because the extra damage from the Punishing Stance only applies to attacks.
So ... a melee touch attack is not an attack. Gotcha.
2 (Prone): A character standing on the ground retrieves and drinks a potion of fly, then drops prone, completing his action for that round.
2B: Next round, he flies toward a monster that is airborne. Does he first have to stand from prone to do so, or are the penalties still applicable?
2b) There are no rules that apply to this particular situation, so it will be entirely up to your DM to adjudicate a house rule if he feels one is needed.
This is a non-answer.
3 (Skill Trick): If the character has the Skill Trick 'Up the Hill', can he charge upward while flying, or does that only apply to ground-based movement?
3) The skill trick is limited to slopes and stairs.
This is a non-answer. Per climb (from SRD)
A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.
So they did not answer the question.
4 (Weird interaction): Here's the situation; a Fleshraker dinosaur is enchanted with Magic Fang (affecting a poison attack) and Venomfire attacks a Wraith. The wraith is immune to poison. A previous CustServ ruling stated that a creature immune to poison would still take the acid damage from Venomfire. Is the acid damage considered a magical source and thus effect the wraith, or is the acid non-magical since Venomfire is just adding acid damage to a non-magical poison?
4) The Acid is not poison and will still work just fine.
This answer plus the one below agree with each other.
4A (similar enough to #4): Does an normal arrow enchanted with Flame Arrow spell affect a wraith? (This would cover similar circumstances as well, yes?)
4a) Flame arrow says that the arrows deals extra fire damage to a target that the arrow hits. The nonmagical arrow will not hit the incorporeal creature, so the flame will not be able to hurt it either.
This means that the delivery device (arrow, sword, claw) determines whether the energy damage is delivered, not the magicness of the energy.
6 (Unnatural Aura): When an animal is affected by Unnatural Aura (Wraith, etc.), does the animal panic for its entire turn, or only until it leaves the area of Unnatural Aura? Can it stop at the edge of the unnatural aura, thereby remaining 30 ft. (wraith) from the threat?
6) The Unnatural Aura ability says they are only panicked only while they are within range of the Aura. Otherwise the DM will adjudicate the normal behavior of an animal, (including how far it will flee) if affected by an instantaneous fear effect.
Would this mean fleeing for one round is appropriate?
9 (movement): During overland movement (not during initiative count), can an animal companion or familiar constantly stay next to the PC master ( i.e. simultaneous movement), or must their movement be sorted in such a way that they remain next to each other so any shared spells do not 'fall off'?
9) The game does not track where people's relative position is during the behind the scenes "overland movement" portion of the game. Tactical positioning and movement is for encounters only.
Overland movement is gauged in a per-minute timeframe. So if there is less than one minute between encounters, then we are in tactical positioning.
EDIT: I linked Otto's post from post 1 for easy finding of all CustServ things we get.
No to ban the entire Polymorph tree, yes to ban PaO by itself. Alter self is a viable tactic even with out things like dwarven ancestor. +6 to your natural armor bonus is one of the few ways that casters can keep up with non casters in the AC department. a large part of the broken power that casters get is from the polymorph line. however I think using 8th level spells to show how powerful your 5th level character is doesnt really work.
remember we want broken but we also want to show low level power. if the PaO rogue used scrolls or wands of alter self to change into a dwarven ancester I would actually be okay with that.
We allowed alter self at first ... and the only builds that used it was the otherworldly dwarven ancestor. This is the char opt board. If it is allowed, then you know where it is going. Banning forms would not solve the issue as we would have to ban more and more forms as people get them that are *almost* as good as the one previously banned.
If people went for troglidyte, then there would have been no concern.
We allowed alter self at first ... and the only builds that used it was the otherworldly dwarven ancestor. This is the char opt board. If it is allowed, then you know where it is going. Banning forms would not solve the issue as we would have to ban more and more forms as people get them that are *almost* as good as the one previously banned.
If people went for troglidyte, then there would have been no concern.
He didn't say to ban forms, only to use Alter Self and not an 8th level spell. Any of the non-casters could use Alter-Self plus Otherworldly if they wanted to. Alter Self is not the issue, the issue is low level characters using high level spells to make a point(poorly). Its the same idea as everyone gearing up with scrolls of Freedom of Movement/Stoneskin, etc. Scrolls of spells that could be cast by any entrant in the challenge should count, but not spells of a higher level than any level equivalent caster could cast. It is a simple fix.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure a "slope" has to be terrestrial. A slope is a physical feature, which air does not possess. You can move at an incline through air, but technically you can't move up a slope.
-AS-
alter self would be fine ..... Polymorph @ 7th lvl would also be ok .... PAO would be ok, if we are comparing 15th lvl Characters
:D
By this logic: Rogue using PAO, Druid using some special form, Cleric using PAO, etc would be considered one build type really.
Haven't really thought this through, just thought I would toss it out as an idea before getting on a plane.
I already voted YES to ban purchasing spellcasting, which would eliminate the problem with everyone going and paying someone to PaO them into the Terminator. If you can buy and activate a scroll of PaO, via UMD or otherwise, fine.
I do think we should either decide as a group, or ask Cust Serv, whether Polymorph changes your hit points. I am sure that WotC said it didn't just a few months ago, but since their Polymorph Errata page seems to have vanished, it is now unclear again.
He didn't say to ban forms, only to use Alter Self and not an 8th level spell. Any of the non-casters could use Alter-Self plus Otherworldly if they wanted to. Alter Self is not the issue, the issue is low level characters using high level spells to make a point(poorly). Its the same idea as everyone gearing up with scrolls of Freedom of Movement/Stoneskin, etc. Scrolls of spells that could be cast by any entrant in the challenge should count, but not spells of a higher level than any level equivalent caster could cast. It is a simple fix.-AS-
So, you are suggesting a different rule
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Since this seems to be hand-in-hand ... same ending time, sunday, noon est.
non core humanoid is something like a crab person or something with +8 to AC
dwarven ancestor is I believe a +12 to AC and 4 higher then anything else on the alter self list.
Alter self used to be a really good and fairly powerful tactic. then with dwarven ancester it became broken. Now ask yourself is dwarven ancestor any more broken then me making the cryo hydra make 3 DC 20 fort saves or die for 5-10 rounds? what about a ranged touch attack with +25 to to hit dealing 18 dex damage with no save?
So, you are suggesting a different rule
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast"
I like this rule better however I would suggest adding an adendum for artificers (which at level 5 can craft scrolls of 4rth level) and that crazy cleric build that uses heighten metamagic and extra slot to gain 8th or 9th level spell slot.
troglodite is THE best form for AC thats core and humanoid.
non core humanoid is something like a crab person or something with +8 to AC
dwarven ancestor is I believe a +12 to AC and 4 higher then anything else on the alter self list.
Tren from Serpent Kingdoms is a lizardman-like race that grants +8 NA.
Dwarf Ancestor actually grants +18 to NA, which I agree is totally insane. I didn't write it, though. I just used it. :P
There are also other forms that grant almost as high a NA if you're an Outsider (Ravid is +15), but they have more disadvantages than the Dwarf Anscestor (it is humanoid, and large).
troglodite is THE best form for AC thats core and humanoid.
non core humanoid is something like a crab person or something with +8 to AC
dwarven ancestor is I believe a +12 to AC and 4 higher then anything else on the alter self list.
Alter self used to be a really good and fairly powerful tactic. then with dwarven ancester it became broken. Now ask yourself is dwarven ancestor any more broken then me making the cryo hydra make 3 DC 20 fort saves or die for 5-10 rounds? what about a ranged touch attack with +25 to to hit dealing 18 dex damage with no save?
If you cannot live to reach the cryo-hydra, then it doesn't matter what your spellcasting is ...
Alter self scroll ... 2*3*25 = 150 gp. +18 ac for 30 minutes (entire mini-adventure)
Full Plate Mail ... 1500. +8 ac while awake.
You see the problem.
I like this rule better however I would suggest adding an adendum for artificers (which at level 5 can craft scrolls of 4rth level) and that crazy cleric build that uses heighten metamagic and extra slot to gain 8th or 9th level spell slot.
That would be the "No early entrant cheese" thing I posted. (edit, apparently we both thought of it at the same time, as I hadn't posted it until after you posted your suggestion, but i didn't see your suggestion until after I posted it)
Yes to alter self.
No to polymorph and POA.
true ... many in D&D use magic.... however "wealth by level" comes with some constraints....
Well true to a point. At the level we're talking about though we only have 19k total and can find anything we can buy.
By the time you outstrip small city levels of wealth you're reaching your teens in levels and should have plenty of favors owed by churches, arcane institutions and governments that would allow you to commission stuff from the handful of powerful crafters available to the entire political unit.
If there are no such places, then you take leadership and hire a cohort to craft for you to get the equipment you need.
Alter self scroll ... 2*3*25 = 150 gp. +18 ac for 30 minutes (entire mini-adventure)
Full Plate Mail ... 1500. +8 ac while awake.
yeah thats a powerful tactic and if a melee charcter wants to use UMD with ether a level a marshal with motivate charisma or skill focus UMD and put an 18 in CHA then thats okay. it takes alot of resources for a non magic character to get that at level 5. I'd also suggest requiring they buy 2 scrolls just in case the roll less then 10 on the UMD but yeah. I'm fine with that.
If you cannot live to reach the cryo-hydra, then it doesn't matter what your spellcasting is ...
I've updated my challenge page which is now linked in my character sheet. no one has gone over it to argue anything about it but as far as I can see I make it to the cyro hydra just fine.
Your character sheet (linked to from the first page) works, but your link to the challenges, just links back to the character page.
We allowed alter self at first ... and the only builds that used it was the otherworldly dwarven ancestor. This is the char opt board. If it is allowed, then you know where it is going. Banning forms would not solve the issue as we would have to ban more and more forms as people get them that are *almost* as good as the one previously banned.
If people went for troglidyte, then there would have been no concern.
In level 7, you'll see Bela use troglodyte if it's allowed. I couldn't afford the wand at level 5 (yes, 900gp for 10 charge wand was too much).
So I like the folllowing
1. No outside spellcasting. You can get recovery spells between challenges.
2. No consumables higher level than the challenge. Caster level 5/3rd level spells for level 5, caster level 7/4th level spells for L7 update.
3. Scrolls, wands and potions using PHB formulas should be allowed for any spells at PHB formula costs. Minimum caster level is based on a caster with no funny feats. Metamagic bumps level normally, assume no funny feats to lower spelllevel or caster level for metamagic by the crafter. Wands can have charges in 10 charge increments.
4. magic items from tables or derived from tables (eg, +1 flaming burst vicious is fine) MIC rules for combining items with attribute boosters is ok by me too for "custom" items, but I really don't care. I dislike custom items not built out of existing items, because cost is almost impossible to judge fairly.
This should at least keep the polyorph tree stuff limited to the level of the character. So you get an annis hag at L7 but not a war troll, etc and it isnt' till level 15 that PAO enters the picture.
deathwishjoe:
Your character sheet (linked to from the first page) works, but your link to the challenges, just links back to the character page.
GAAAAAH! I thought I checked that after I edited last night. I rolled a one on my craft: forum post. its been fixed.
Also If we allow PaO in any form (from scrolls or paying for the spell casting services) I will post a spell casting character designed to utilize PaO that can't be mimiced buy fighters. I am fine with that. Just realize it opens up a whole bag of worms that we really dont need to get into for this particular challenge.
If you have come recently to this thread it is likely you don't know that ALL the first casters posted used polymorph mechanics to show the power of casters.
My reaction was using a non-caster with PAO and show he was stronger than the casters.
All the ridiculously broken stuff I keep posting is used by pro-casters first to show the casters power, and I use it to clearly highlight that is easy to use it by non-casters and that usually it works better when used by non-casters.
I find amusing that the most recent posters keep trying to ban the very same issues the early casters claimed made casters overpowered
Also, notice the druid derives a lot of his overpowerness from using polymorph mechanics, if you ban that you need to use some druid variants, without wildshape. Unsurprisingly nobody in the pro-caster camp wants to go there.
Vote: yes - balanced spells make sense
Really? What is a balanced spell? I keep seening the same unbalanced spells in the casters writeups all the time: wraithstrike, venomfire, shivering touch, DMM-persistent spells (all of them), etc. Level 7 will bring us clerics with divine power, another utterly broken spell.
Once again I find amusing some folks are trying to ban the spells that make non-casters more powerful than casters.
If you have come recently to this thread it is likely you don't know that ALL the first casters posted used polymorph mechanics to show the power of casters.
My reaction was using a non-caster with PAO and show he was stronger than the casters.
All the ridiculously broken stuff I keep posting is used by pro-casters first to show the casters power, and I use it to clearly highlight that is easy to use it by non-casters and that usually it works better when used by non-casters.
I find amusing that the most recent posters keep trying to ban the very same issues the early casters claimed made casters overpowered
Also, notice the druid derives a lot of his overpowerness from using polymorph mechanics, if you ban that you need to use some druid variants, without wildshape. Unsurprisingly nobody in the pro-caster camp wants to go there.
While I understand the purpose of you're posted character and agree with you in spirit I wanted to point out that while I am fine letting people abuse the polymorph mechanics using spells that require a much higher ECL then is allowed normally confuses the entire issue. both sides can use it and it doesn't really prove anything. As I have said I'm fine with abusing polymorph spells even if they are from scrolls. however using such a high level spell fails to show anything as both sides can do the same abuse and it doesn't even compare the UMD mechanic with spellcasting. And as I said before if for some reason we wanted to allow the continued abuse of PaO then I'd be happy to showcase a build that is extreamly effective and can't really be replicated by noncasters.
Once again I find amusing some folks are trying to ban the spells that make non-casters more powerful than casters.
since my build is stronger then the noncaster builds that abuse PaO then it still showcases the casters strength over noncasters
true ... many in D&D use magic.... however "wealth by level" comes with some constraints....
these can be found in any copy of the DMG , Pages 103-167... covering NPCs and Campaign Development
Specifically, look on page 137-139
Determining Town Size(this also shows Item availability):
Thorp: Population 20-80, .......................GP LIMIT per Item: 40gp
Hamlet: Population 81-400, .................... GP LIMIT per Item: 100gp
Village: Population 401-900, ................... GP LIMIT per Item: 200gp
Small Town: Population 901-2000, ........... GP LIMIT per Item: 800gp
Large Town: Population 2001-5000, ......... GP LIMIT per Item: 3000gp
Small City: Population 5001-12000, ..........GP LIMIT per Item: 15000gp
then look at the chart for the Highest level NPC:
community modifier
Thorp: -3
Hamlet: -2
Village: -1
Small Town: 0
Large Town: +3
Small City: +6(roll 2 times)
then look at the Character level based on comunity size:
Character level
Adept 1d6+Community Mod
Bard 1d6+Community Mod
Cleric 1d6+Community Mod
Druid 1d6+Community Mod
Sorceror 1d4+Community Mod
Wizard 1d4+Community Mod
say we use a Large Town to equip each character... then the highest level caster to have spells cast is as follows(using average, round down)
Why a large town?
We have had druids that live in dinosaur-land. And that know lore lost by the elves 8,000 years ago.
Why exactly can't I say my character comes from a metropolis or even a planar metropolis with a limit per item of over 200,000 gold?
By the way, a scroll of PAO costs 3000 gold, so it can be purchased in the typical large town. Only scrolls of level 9 spells are unavailable.
Why a large town?
We have had druids that live in dinosaur-land. And that know lore lost by the elves 8,000 years ago.
Why exactly can't I say my character comes from a metropolis or even a planar metropolis with a limit per item of over 200,000 gold?
By the way, a scroll of PAO costs 3000 gold, so it can be purchased in the typical large town. Only scrolls of level 9 spells are unavailable.
At this point in time -- I am not wanting to talk about limiting equipment purchases by GP value.
In normal DnD, some items are given in treasure, some are found. We are bringing characters to the table, some of which (conceivably) might have found items above whatever gp range is requested.
Additionally, to say that noncasters cannot buy an item, but a caster can craft that same item (because of gp limits) is slanting things to increase caster power -- so this is not currently being discussed.
If a time comes, when a player abuses things, then we can start talking about it.
yeah thats a powerful tactic and if a melee charcter wants to use UMD with ether a level a marshal with motivate charisma or skill focus UMD and put an 18 in CHA then thats okay. it takes alot of resources for a non magic character to get that at level 5. I'd also suggest requiring they buy 2 scrolls just in case the roll less then 10 on the UMD but yeah. I'm fine with that.
There is no penalty for failure (except the massive failure thing). Instead, on a failed UMD check, you are unable to activate the item, this means you just try again.
Heres a reposting of my adventure and the CR6 hydra adventure
CR5 cave:
while wandering through the hills I am a attacked by a manticore!Show
we roll for initiative. I have +7 so I probably go first. If I don’t, then when the manitcore attacks me I use my immediate action to teleport ten feet out of the area and out of range of the attack.
my first turn I cast invisibility and move 30 feet away in a random direction away from the manticore. Manticore begins trying to locate me by my scent. this is going to involve going to where he last saw me and following my trail. due to distances involved he will be unable to do so before my turn comes around again.
Next round I cast remove scent and move again. Manticore loses my trail and spends its turn unable to find me. Even with the sound I made initially while casting the spell i am no longer where the sound was coming from when the Manticores turn comes around.
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate until the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose
There is no penalty for failure (except the massive failure thing). Instead, on a failed UMD check, you are unable to activate the item, this means you just try again.
even with a clearer understanding of the rules ( I thought they lost the scroll if they failed the roll and nothing happened except on a roll of 1) i still stand by my statement
In level 7, you'll see Bela use troglodyte if it's allowed. I couldn't afford the wand at level 5 (yes, 900gp for 10 charge wand was too much).
So I like the folllowing
1. No outside spellcasting. You can get recovery spells between challenges.
2. No consumables higher level than the challenge. Caster level 5/3rd level spells for level 5, caster level 7/4th level spells for L7 update.
3. Scrolls, wands and potions using PHB formulas should be allowed for any spells at PHB formula costs. Minimum caster level is based on a caster with no funny feats. Metamagic bumps level normally, assume no funny feats to lower spelllevel or caster level for metamagic by the crafter. Wands can have charges in 10 charge increments.
4. magic items from tables or derived from tables (eg, +1 flaming burst vicious is fine) MIC rules for combining items with attribute boosters is ok by me too for "custom" items, but I really don't care. I dislike custom items not built out of existing items, because cost is almost impossible to judge fairly.
This should at least keep the polyorph tree stuff limited to the level of the character. So you get an annis hag at L7 but not a war troll, etc and it isnt' till level 15 that PAO enters the picture.
My vote goes with this.
Lame on the poison call. I still think it's like the flaming arrow example, and it really shocked me to see those side by side. Oh well, caustic makes sense to be corrosive.
Slope requires surface, skill trick doesn't let you fly/charge at an angle.
I wonder how many times we'll have to re-argue the moronic point that magic is only a commodity of spellcasters. D&D is a designed around PCs having tons of money, and having all kinds of bombastic hats. PAO Rogue or PAO Spellcaster, both still totally outclass PAO Commoner. IMO, the feats/skills of the Rogue are balanced against the spells of the caster, and both kick NPCs to the curb (especially if you factor wealth.)
It could verify easily return later ... when the swarm is no longer around.
This is fine in which case I use the same tactics again to defeat it or drive it off. still a win
Remember, using a spell-like ability provokes, and you can fail your concentration check while grappled. (Numbers might be nice)
immediate actions work like swift actions except they can be cast on turns other then yours and swift actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity. still a win even if I rolled a one on move silently. As far as the numbers go I am a bit confused as the the method of averages that seems to be used in this thread. if we could ahve a breif explanation and possibly link it to the original post that would be helpful.
It has a +7 init bonus, you it might beat you.
This is something that needs to be shown.
I enter the room invisable. I use the surprise round to attack it removing my invisability if I fail I run in which case I can even take maximum damage and still live and just get out of there as fast as i can. it can't follow me out of the cave due to the sunlight.
Do you normally cast false life + bear's endurance? if so, fine, if not, then you cannot do this now.
my standard buff before going further into a dungeon.
You cannot abrupt jaunt while flatfooted.
The original description of the adventure suggest that nether the bugbear or the griffon are hiding. hence I assumed there was no surprise round and its just a streight initiative roll.
The stalemate is that it needs to wait out your spells. Once your invisibility expires, you are dead meat.
Long before then the unicorn will have run off or died and I will have hit him with the shivering touch spell.
How do you get out of the deep pit.
your getting this confused with the CR5 version which had a pit trap. this one has blocks of spikes that hit you from the ceiling. the only reason I teleport a head is my character doesnt know how many squares are trapped and doesnt want more damage.
Are you invisible? If not, then the cryohydra charges and kills you (or disrupts the spell) while you are summoning them.
yep as per my buffing routine. I refered to the fight I had with the ghouls when I mentioned what I did with the lamia and with the ghouls I mentioned what buffs i used before continueing on.
This ... is horrific.
So ... a melee touch attack is not an attack. Gotcha.
told ya so. :P
This is a non-answer.
Agreed. The part about flying is a non-answer, which was the crux of the question anyway.
This is a non-answer. Per climb (from SRD)
So they did not answer the question.
To me they did. It's only for ground based movement. However, I could ask for clarification, and try to nail them down to a 'yes/no' response.
"Does the skill trick 'up the hill' apply while flying? Yes or no?"
This answer plus the one below agree with each other.
This means that the delivery device (arrow, sword, claw) determines whether the energy damage is delivered, not the magicness of the energy.
Apparently so. A fleshraker without magic fang wouldn't be able to venomfire the wraith, as its non-magical attacks automatically miss. Which means a fleshraker needs to have magic fang cast on it four times to acid the wraith with all attacks.
Would this mean fleeing for one round is appropriate?
Only while within the range of the aura. So once the animal leaves the aura, it's not panicked.
Overland movement is gauged in a per-minute timeframe. So if there is less than one minute between encounters, then we are in tactical positioning.
That's not what they answered. You're adding that 'per-minute' thing to have it your way.
I'll ask them to be more clear if you need further proof.
"I previously asked this question:
9 (movement): During overland movement (not during initiative count), can an animal companion or familiar constantly stay next to the PC master ( i.e. simultaneous movement), or must their movement be sorted in such a way that they remain next to each other so any shared spells do not 'fall off'?
And got this answer:
9) The game does not track where people's relative position is during the behind the scenes "overland movement" portion of the game. Tactical positioning and movement is for encounters only.
Which doesn't actually address the question at hand, other than leaving it open to interpretation for when/if the shared spells fall off.
Overland movement is counted as 'per minute' for the smallest time frame. Does that mean that encounters that happed less than one minute apart have to happen as tactical movement, forcing the master/companion to "leapfrog" during this time to make sure the spells do not 'fall off'?
When is an encounter considered over and the characters reenter overland movement.
When moving behind the scenes in "overland movement" portion of the game, can the master/companion remain close enough to keep shared spells, or are they slowed because of the 'leapfrog' effect*?
*The leapfrog effect is when the master moves forward far enough to make progress, but keep the animal within 'share spells' range, then the companion/familiar moves forward far enough to make progress, but keep the master within 'share spell' range. Lather, rinse, repeat."
If I do send that in, I don't really expect an answer until late next week, of course. I thought about also sending this question:
"Does the feat 'Natural Bond' allow a druid to overcome the level penalty associated with choosing a companion from the level-3 (or higher) tables?
For instance, a 5th level druid chooses an Ape. Does taking Natural Bond (feat) overcome that level-3 and grant the ape +2 HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1 Str/Dex, 2 bonus tricks and Evasion?"
Any other issues?
What bugs me about the CS response on the incorporeal is that you do not MISS incorporeals.
They have a DAMAGE IMMUNITY.
But because some stupid dev coined the term "incorporeal miss chance" early in 3.0, people thinks it works like displacement and it is nearly impossible to stamp out as a meme.
A nonmagical arrow hits a wraith just fine. It just has 100% chance of doing no damage. A magical arrow hits it too. It has a 50% chance of doing no damage. A arrow fired from a bow with force enchantment hits it too. It has a zero % chance of doing no damage.
At my table (but not in this challenge) flame arrow would work half the time because it's magical flames, but the arrow itself would never do any damage. Very similar to hitting a swarm with a flaming weapon. Venomfire would probably work too, because I think it is magical acid. (SR=no magical acid, just like a flaming arrow from flame arrow is SR=no magical fire)
But their response just shows they're ignorant of the definition of incorporeal in the monster manual which uses the term "miss chance" never and uses the term "immunity" repeatedly.
RANT OFF!
As far as the numbers go I am a bit confused as the the method of averages that seems to be used in this thread. if we could ahve a breif explanation and possibly link it to the original post that would be helpful.
Here's how I do it.
Take your attack bonus and subtract it from the creature's AC.
AC - attack bonus = X
Anything below X misses
100% - miss chance = hit chance
Anything over 50% results in a success. Each 100% added to that initial success number results in another success (150%, 250%, 350%, etc.)
A sample: +11 to hit v. AC 16 (like a boneclaw)
16 - 11 = 5
So, numbers 1-4 are a miss
4 x 5% = 20% miss chance
100% - 20% gives a 80% hit chance.
The sample character's attacks against AC 16 come in at...
80% [need to beat 50%] (hit)
160% [need to beat 150%] (hit)
240% [need to beat 250%] (miss)
320% [need to beat 250%] (hit)
400% [need to beat 350%] (hit)
480% [need to beat 450%] (hit)
560%[need to beat 550%] (hit)
640% [need to beat 650%] (miss)
720% [need to beat 650%] (hit)
800% [need to beat 750%] (hit)
Giving 8/10 hits, or 80%.
Let us know if that's not clear enough. I'm sure somebody can clarify it even more.
But their response just shows they're ignorant of the definition of incorporeal in the monster manual which uses the term "miss chance" never and uses the term "immunity" repeatedly.
Or there was an internal shift regarding this issue they forgot to inform us players about.
Either leaves me
but not surprised.Another CR 7 mini-adventure. Try it first with your Level 5 character, then again with the level 7 character. This one is much more standard in format: I actually just looked at a list of CR 7 monsters in the SRD, picked out 5 that looked interesting, and strung them together into an adventure.
The Lost Temple
You have been told that of an ancient temple that contains fabulous treasures. It lies about a week’s journey into a desert outside of town. You know that the desert is very dangerous, full of nasty monsters.
Encounter 1:
A Huge Monstrous Scorpion rests in a group of sand dunes, completely out of sight. As the PC moves past, it detects him with its tremorsense, emerges, and attacks. The scorpion’s lair lies directly in the PCs path.
Tactics: The Scorpion waits until the PC is within 50 feet, then moves out of the dunes (move action) and attacks (standard action). The Scorpion then makes a full attack every round it is able to do so. It will grapple the PC if it hits and triggers improved grab, but will not attempt to start a grapple with a touch attack. If the PC attempts to flee, it will pursue.
A Huge Monstrous Scorpion rests in a group of sand dunes, completely out of sight. As the PC moves past, it detects him with its tremorsense, emerges, and attacks. The scorpion’s lair lies directly in the PCs path.
Tactics: The Scorpion waits until the PC is within 50 feet, then moves out of the dunes (move action) and attacks (standard action). The Scorpion then makes a full attack every round it is able to do so. It will grapple the PC if it hits and triggers improved grab, but will not attempt to start a grapple with a touch attack. If the PC attempts to flee, it will pursue.
The sample character's attacks against AC 16 come in at 80% (hit), 160% (hit), 240% (miss), 320% (hit), 400% (hit), 480% (hit), 560% (hit), 640 (miss).
I understand it now. however because I spend my day explaining complicated things to stupid people I would suggest the following change.
The sample character's attacks against AC 16 come in at 80% [need to beat 50%] (hit), 160% [need to beat 150%] (hit), 240% [need to beat 250%] (miss), 320% [need to beat 250%] (hit), 400% [need to beat 350%] (hit), 480% [need to beat 450%] (hit), 560%[need to beat 550%] (hit), 640 [need to beat 650%] (miss)
The bad guy had one on either side of him, with a big table between him and the PC's.
At neither table did anyone actually encounter the glyphs until they tried to loot his body.
When I played, the melees were dealing with a cloaker and a bunch of level draining undead, and left that guy to the arcane caster and archer.
When I ran it, the first guy who stuck his head in the room happened to be an archer, greviously wounded him because there were not yet any other targets, and by the time his action came around again the melee enemies had been mopped up by the party BDF and cleric turning, so he had nothing better to do than shoot the ghoul glyph spellcaster again.
Which just goes to show that the best laid plans of cheese can fail if you have an expectation (some melee type with charge the ranged caster guy) and the PC's don't go along with it.
The way PAO entered this thread was in response to Otherworldly Alter Self builds ...
My opinion, we need to disallow all of the polymorph tree (Shapechange, PAO, polymorph, Alterself) but allow the new "trollshape", etc that are the more balanced version
However, this would require consensus as it will invalidate 3-4 caster builds and 1 noncaster build.
So -- cast your vote, voting ends Sunday noon est. (extended time frame to allow more people to vote).
[edit] I will post any/all current votes/polls on the first page -- to help make sure that no one misses one.
New Rules:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
I am against banning class abilities or spells but for banning the buying of services from NPC's as that gets stupid quickly as has been demonstrated.
I am also against forbidding the use of scrolls that a level 5 caster couldn't use. For a caster its an extremely easy check to use a scroll of 1 level higher than he can normally cast. If it is outlawed then in all fairness UMD and items that do nothing but duplicate spellcasting should be forbidden to non-casters. They can still have magical gear, just not gear that duplicates spells.
This is a non-answer. Per climb (from SRD)
So they did not answer the question.
That is a total answer. In the lack of a physical surface to move along the ability does not work. Period. Just like everyone in the thread has been telling you for weeks.
That is a total answer. In the lack of a physical surface to move along the ability does not work. Period. Just like everyone in the thread has been telling you for weeks.
Meyers point seems to be that a slope is any kind of inclined plane so if you go up on an inclined plane when you move it counts. however i do believe the intent of the reply was to state that you needed to be on top of something while moving uphill. it just can be interpreted with meyers way as written but yeah.
The original description of the adventure suggest that nether the bugbear or the griffon are hiding. hence I assumed there was no surprise round and its just a streight initiative roll.
As I posted before:
Even if it's a straight initiative roll, you are flat-footed until you have acted in a given combat.
You cannot take an immediate action while flat-footed.
A+B = If you lose initiative, you can't use an immediate action.*
* Unless you already acted during a surprise round, or are somehow otherwise exempt from being flat-footed.
I am also against forbidding the use of scrolls that a level 5 caster couldn't use. For a caster its an extremely easy check to use a scroll of 1 level higher than he can normally cast. If it is outlawed then in all fairness UMD and items that do nothing but duplicate spellcasting should be forbidden to non-casters. They can still have magical gear, just not gear that duplicates spells.
It's more to limit excess consumables. Permanent items with high caster levels are fine. Consumables probably need a limit, because it's easy to break an encounter with an 18th level scroll, that is trivial to UMD blindly or for a caster using CL advancing tricks to activate reliably.
Cash basis isn't enough. A level 20 scroll of shield of faith is only 500gp, but nothing will dispel it and it will last the whole adventure for most of these encounters. Buying the same effect on a ring costs 50,000gp. Anybody who can activate it will obviously do it with a scroll. Heck, even if you only have a 50% chance of activating it it's enough better than the level 10 shield of faith that you'll use the scroll instead of casting it yourself.
The CR system wasn't built for that kind of consumable. (I've seen candle of invocation/gate/solar used at an EL14 game. It wasn't much fun)
As I posted before:
Even if it's a straight initiative roll, you are flat-footed until you have acted in a given combat.
You cannot take an immediate action while flat-footed.
A+B = If you lose initiative, you can't use an immediate action.*
Interesting I was not aware of that rule. however with my greater understanding of how we are working the statistics I go first anyways. I have +7 to my init roll and he has +6. I will update the challenge accordingly
Instead of banning the Polymorph school and high level consumables (which also include martial scrolls btw), we better "retire" them. Anyone can use them, using them wins the encounters, their options are explored.
- any setting specific material: not sufficient relevance to DnD as a whole.
- encounter sequences lasting just a few minutes: too unrealistic.
- the ban on Psionics needs to be removed. It greatly favors casters.
It's more to limit excess consumables. Permanent items with high caster levels are fine. Consumables probably need a limit, because it's easy to break an encounter with an 18th level scroll, that is trivial to UMD blindly or for a caster using CL advancing tricks to activate reliably.
Cash basis isn't enough. A level 20 scroll of shield of faith is only 500gp, but nothing will dispel it and it will last the whole adventure for most of these encounters. Buying the same effect on a ring costs 50,000gp. Anybody who can activate it will obviously do it with a scroll. Heck, even if you only have a 50% chance of activating it it's enough better than the level 10 shield of faith that you'll use the scroll instead of casting it yourself.
The CR system wasn't built for that kind of consumable. (I've seen candle of invocation/gate/solar used at an EL14 game. It wasn't much fun)
Right, but I see nothing wrong with using a level 4 spell off a scroll in a cr 5 challenge. Its not like that is an uncommon occurance in many DnD games, its almost guarenteed success for the caster. The only time they would avoid doing that is if they were a wizard who wanted to save the scroll and scribe it when they leveled up.
And while we're at it, here are my "ban" proposals:
- any setting specific material: not sufficient relevance to DnD as a whole.
- encounter sequences lasting just a few minutes: too unrealistic.
- the ban on Psionics needs to be removed. It greatly favors casters.
Here is my counterproposal. Ban armor and weapons.
If your encounters for the day are in a tiny cave don't blame me if a caster can clear out the whole place in under a minute.
Right, but I see nothing wrong with using a level 4 spell off a scroll in a cr 5 challenge. Its not like that is an uncommon occurance in many DnD games, its almost guarenteed success for the caster. The only time they would avoid doing that is if they were a wizard who wanted to save the scroll and scribe it when they leveled up.
Well...no. Where I play, burning a 700gp consumable in an adventure likely to earn either 675gp per player or 900gp per player (depending on whether you're playing "down" or "up") is considered something for only the most dire emergencies. This is why you don't see potions of fly on L5 Bela, even though his consumable burn is pretty high and it might have saved his life once or twice. Even L7 Bela will only have one, and won't use it routinely.
Indeed burning a level 3 scroll at level 5 is considered a pretty expensive practice unless you only do it every few adventures. You'll even feel the pinch of the L2 scrolls.
In a campaign where the DM doesn't just shovel more money at a player if he recklessly burns consumables but actually lets them fall behind the wealth curve, people tend to be more cautious with the big guns.
In this situation, where the PC gets to keep all the wealth you have a bit more slack but if memory serves, the DMG assumes a certain gap between wealth earned and wealth retained. That gap is the "consumable budget" for a level of advancement. It's probably too fiddly a thing to use as a general rule for this challenge, but maybe I'll benchmark Bela's activities against it to see how long-term-costly his behavior is or whether he'd actually accumulate cash for ressurection funds.
Core only +40 points
No Consumables +40 points
No Setting Specific Material +5 points
No Polymorph spells +20 points
No Purchased Spellcasting service +40 points
Standard PHB race +10 points
No Flaws +40 points
One Flaw +20 points
No more than two classes +20 points
No alternate classes (ie. feat rogue, shapechange druid, whirling frenzy barb)+20 points
etc.
Its clear the challenges are not hard to solo, a scoring system like that can encourage "playable" builds.
Core only +40 points
No Consumables +40 points
No Setting Specific Material +5 points
No Polymorph spells +20 points
No Purchased Spellcasting service +40 points
Standard PHB race +10 points
No Flaws +40 points
One Flaw +20 points
No more than two classes +20 points
No alternate classes (ie. feat rogue, shapechange druid, whirling frenzy barb)+20 points
interesting. if we did this then you would need to also makes points for the effectiveness of the character. That would mean giving points for wether or not they complete various challenges. You might also want to weight it so that people who take a CR higher then there ECL get more from that as well. If you didn't do this a level 5 commoner human who has all his wealth would be the highest scoring character.
I have updated the challenge that my character sheet links to for the flatfooted initiative issues and added the probabilities to the adventure. any comments?
The favored enemy is actually tied to his backstory, although it's handy vs elemental DR. I debated strongly doing trapfinding substitution but decided Bela actually needs to know how to survive alone in the wilderness and not get lost, so 5+ ranks of survival are a good idea and tracking might be useful in some challenge or other. Plus the way Bela uses consumables he really can't be searching every square. I like the flavor of spiritual connection better than wild empathy...Bela is NOT empathic but his weird dabblings in magic might let him communiciate with weak or barely existant minds.
Lion pounce is simply too good not to be taken, even though this isn't really a pounce build. I'm giving up something I never use (fast movement) for something I'll use every time I've got a charge lane to an enemy. Nobrainer. Totally dumb from a balance perspective. I should lose 10 points just for taking it
. The bear totem is nearly as bad.I'm hoping CR7 Bela will be less of a hodgepodge, I was learning both how to tune a character for this kind of play an how to use the dice pool percentage system as I went and the results are uneven in places. I'll be able to "shake down" L7 Bela's build and equipment with the existing challenges before he does new stuff, so the L7+ results should be pretty tight.
Under the above scoring system, L5 Bela was 135. He'll lose 20 points at level 7 for using alter self(troglodyte), and he would have taken a wand of alter self at level 5 if he could have afforded it without totally giving up on permanent items.
Interesting I was not aware of that rule. however with my greater understanding of how we are working the statistics I go first anyways. I have +7 to my init roll and he has +6. I will update the challenge accordingly
if losing initiative means the character dies then you should really call that out with respect to the probability that the character wins initiative is relative to the percent chance the character wins the encounter. Clearly +7 vs +6 is not a slam dunk win on initiative.
EDIT: read what you put it. that is good, since iniative matters for this character in the first round, that means a 22% chance of failing the encounter right?
Really? What is a balanced spell?
This is a reference to the spells like trollshape that WotC came out with when they were doing the massive polymorph overhaul. Nothing more. I'm simply refering to changes WotC did, which according to their write up was intended to make these spells more predictable wrt power and impact to the game.
Irrelevant
In D&D everybody uses magic. Period.
Spellcasting is not "only I use magic"
"Low magic" campaigns are not standard campaigns, that is not how D&D is designed to work.
In "special" campaigns where casters automatically suffer 500 hp of damage every time they cast a spell casters are very weak and die quickly. So by your logic that proves spellcasters are very weak. Right?
Huh... Most magic items are extensions of spellcasters or at least pseudo-casters.
1) Cheezinator does not use NPCs casters at all.
2) If what you mean is that the scroll was written by a caster, I remind you the paper where the spell was written was likely crafted by a commoner, as was the wizard's spellbook and the cleric holy symbol, which means by that logic the non-casters are more powerful the casters because they created the tools the casters need to do magic.
Craft skills are available to just about everyone.
False, the artificer can't cast any spell, not even a cantrip.
And the artificer is the best crafter of magic items.
Moreover there are supernatural critters that can't cast spells that are able to craft magic items.
Artificers are pseudo-casters. Other than that class you need to have a caster level to choose item crafting feats,
New Rules:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
Banning abused overpowered spells kind of defeats the purpose of this debate. I vote no on this rule.
So, you are suggesting a different rule
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Since this seems to be hand-in-hand ... same ending time, sunday, noon est.
I vote yes on this one, however.
character
Mr. Burns Level 2 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 1/ Totemist 1
Hp 25
Ac 20 (5 armor 2 natural 2 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 1
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 22 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Skills Swim 4, Spot 4, Listen 4, knowledge religion 1
Saves Fortitude 10, Reflex 3, Will 1
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt
traits slow
Flaw pathetic charisma, Shaky
Essentia pool 2
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 2
wormtail belt
Frost helm
Lightning Gauntlets
blink shirt
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
150 on chainmail
Large shield wood 7
Morning star 8
10 Potions of healing 500
Latern
sling
20 bullets
Backpack
Attacks melee+2 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged-1 d4+2
Breath weapon d8 range 10ft save 17
Mr. Burns Level 2 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 1/ Totemist 1
Hp 25
Ac 20 (5 armor 2 natural 2 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 1
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 22 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Skills Swim 4, Spot 4, Listen 4, knowledge religion 1
Saves Fortitude 10, Reflex 3, Will 1
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt
traits slow
Flaw pathetic charisma, Shaky
Essentia pool 2
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 2
wormtail belt
Frost helm
Lightning Gauntlets
blink shirt
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
150 on chainmail
Large shield wood 7
Morning star 8
10 Potions of healing 500
Latern
sling
20 bullets
Backpack
Attacks melee+2 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged-1 d4+2
Breath weapon d8 range 10ft save 17
if losing initiative means the character dies then you should really call that out with respect to the probability that the character wins initiative is relative to the percent chance the character wins the encounter. Clearly +7 vs +6 is not a slam dunk win on initiative.
EDIT: read what you put it. that is good, since iniative matters for this character in the first round, that means a 22% chance of failing the encounter right?
This is a good point. while only having a 22% chance of losing initiative isn't bad by far really especially since I am soloing an adventure 1 level higher then my ECL. however this does remind me that the reason I wasn't using nerve skitter was because I wanted to save my immediate action in case I lost initiative. Since I can't use them while flat footed I might as well be using nerve skitter to make it even harder to lose initiative. this way I only have a 17% chance of failure. I will update the new tactics again.
Most encounters I can afford to lose inititive as I have my buffs up, however against the manticore and the initial encounter outside the hydra cave I wouldn't normally have my buffs up while traveling. these are the times when I am most vulnerable. I also need to point out that even if I lost initiative I dont necessarily die right off the bat. he has to get past my AC (95% chance) and then deal max or almost max damage (roll 7 or higher on damage making it about 25% chance of success) in one hit or or I live. this means with out nerve skitter I really have about 5.22% chance of dying and with nerve skitter I have 4.03% chance of dying.
This is a good point. while only having a 22% chance of losing initiative isn't bad by far really especially since I am soloing an adventure 1 level higher then my ECL. however this does remind me that the reason I wasn't using nerve skitter was because I wanted to save my immediate action in case I lost initiative. Since I can't use them while flat footed I might as well be using nerve skitter to make it even harder to lose initiative. this way I only have a 17% chance of failure. I will update the new tactics again.
Most encounters I can afford to lose inititive as I have my buffs up, however against the manticore and the initial encounter outside the hydra cave I wouldn't normally have my buffs up while traveling. these are the times when I am most vulnerable. I also need to point out that even if I lost initiative I dont necessarily die right off the bat. he has to get past my AC (95% chance) and then deal max or almost max damage (roll 7 or higher on damage making it about 25% chance of success) in one hit or or I live. this means with out nerve skitter I really have about 5.22% chance of dying and with nerve skitter I have 4.03% chance of dying.
Actually, it is much worse than that. There is a really good chance that spook is surprised. The manticore is on home turf. This is an extra set of spikes before spook ever goes. 6*6.5 = 39 damage. This kills spook outright unless I'm missing something.
Actually, it is much worse than that. There is a really good chance that spook is surprised. The manticore is on home turf. This is an extra set of spikes before spook ever goes. 6*6.5 = 39 damage. This kills spook outright unless I'm missing something.
the CR2 encounter suggests that both combatents know of each other and that there is no ambush. where as the choker is specifically listed as an ambush scenario.
If we wanted to go with the ambush scenario I would need more information about the challenge. how far is it from the town to the cave? an hour, a half an hour, several days ride? I know that there are rumors of a mantiore in the area so i may very well at least try to travel prepared.
Of course if I am ambushed by a manticore while unbuffed and unawares then yes I die with several spikes in my chest.
Show
Mr. Burns Level 3 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 2/ Totemist 1
Hp 35
Ac 20 (5 armor 2 natural 2 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 1
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 22 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Saves Fortitude 11 Reflex 3, Will 2
Skills Swim 4, spot 4, listen 4, knowledge religion 1, knowledge arcana 1
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Essentia pool 3
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 2
wormtail belt 1
Frost helm bound to totem
Lightning Gauntlets
blink shirt
1 other
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
150 on chainmail
Large shield wood 7
Morning star 8
10 Potions of healing 500
Latern
sling
20 bullets
Backpack
Attacks melee+3 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon d8 range 10ft save 17
Mr. Burns Level 3 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 2/ Totemist 1
Hp 35
Ac 20 (5 armor 2 natural 2 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 1
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 22 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Saves Fortitude 11 Reflex 3, Will 2
Skills Swim 4, spot 4, listen 4, knowledge religion 1, knowledge arcana 1
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Essentia pool 3
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 2
wormtail belt 1
Frost helm bound to totem
Lightning Gauntlets
blink shirt
1 other
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
150 on chainmail
Large shield wood 7
Morning star 8
10 Potions of healing 500
Latern
sling
20 bullets
Backpack
Attacks melee+3 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon d8 range 10ft save 17
You are going to ban spells left and right but you are hesitant to ban buying consumables and spell based 1 shot items? biased much? [sarcasm]Of course the problem has to be the spells it couldn't possibly be that you are letting level 5 PC's use tactics not normally available to them until level 15 ish (the normal minimum level to cast PAO).[/sarcasm]
As for the line of thought:
At this point in time -- I am not wanting to talk about limiting equipment purchases by GP value.
In normal DnD, some items are given in treasure, some are found. We are bringing characters to the table, some of which (conceivably) might have found items above whatever gp range is requested.
1- If you put a PAO scroll into a pile of treasure for a group of level 5 PC or even level 7 PC you are not following the rules and would ask you to recheck the magic treasure generation tables in the DMG, a scroll for an 8th level spell is considered a major treasure that doesn't even become possible until a CR 10 encounter. If you just throw one in for the hell of it, it better be a plot device or you are simply a bad DM giving PCs things that should not be available to them.
2- The scroll of PAO is already 3k gp which is 1/3 of the PC's allotted wealth. The fact that he needs an item thats a 1 time use consumable says enough already. Buying it at an even higher cost just makes it more obvious.
Finally, none of the builds in here (save the explosive runes caster) have been mechanically broken. They have simply passed your gauntlet which does nothing more than point out how bad the CR system needs an overhaul.
- encounter sequences lasting just a few minutes: too unrealistic.
This is a silly thing to vote to ban. All you need to do is post a mini-adventure which takes more than minutes. Salladin did this for his second cr7.
- the ban on Psionics needs to be removed. It greatly favors casters.
How does it greatly favor casters?
Psions, wilders would count as casters.
Personally -- I feel that the psychic warrior is similar to the duskblade, in that the chasis is a noncaster -- but it self-buffs/etc as a caster.
Well...no. Where I play, burning a 700gp consumable in an adventure likely to earn either 675gp per player or 900gp per player (depending on whether you're playing "down" or "up") is considered something for only the most dire emergencies. This is why you don't see potions of fly on L5 Bela, even though his consumable burn is pretty high and it might have saved his life once or twice. Even L7 Bela will only have one, and won't use it routinely.
Ah, whereas where I play, I try to get a potion of fly as early as possible ... as if you need it, you have it. If you don't, well ... its cheap insurance.
Having fought flying wizards with prot from arrows/etc ... or flying creatures with DR, etc ... it has saved me more than once.
I think the best solution is to have scoring based on the limitations the charecter has. Something like...
Core only +40 points
No Consumables +40 points
No Setting Specific Material +5 points
No Polymorph spells +20 points
No Purchased Spellcasting service +40 points
Standard PHB race +10 points
No Flaws +40 points
One Flaw +20 points
No more than two classes +20 points
No alternate classes (ie. feat rogue, shapechange druid, whirling frenzy barb)+20 points
So, a druid (core) with venomfire (serpents), fleshraker (mm3), greenbound summoning (old elf book), ashbound summoning (eberron) would gain +10 (standard race) +20 (no more than two classes) +20 (no alternate classes) (+50 points total)
While my character would gain the +5 (no setting specific material)? (as he expends 50gp worth of consumables in some of the cr5s, so he cannot gain the +40 (no consumable) bonus)
With that scoring, your character has 45 more points than I do, and otherworldly PAO/Alterself have 25 points more than I do easily. And since the scoring is supposed to reflect how normal/viable a build is, this seems to me to be flawed.
Its clear the challenges are not hard to solo, a scoring system like that can encourage "playable" builds.
The challenges are hard to solo ... we have few people attempting them -- and the ones who attempted the cr5, are not trying the other ones.
1- If you put a PAO scroll into a pile of treasure for a group of level 5 PC or even level 7 PC you are not following the rules and would ask you to recheck the magic treasure generation tables in the DMG, a scroll for an 8th level spell is considered a major treasure that doesn't even become possible until a CR 10 encounter. If you just throw one in for the hell of it, it better be a plot device or you are simply a bad DM giving PCs things that should not be available to them.
2- The scroll of PAO is already 3k gp which is 1/3 of the PC's allotted wealth. The fact that he needs an item thats a 1 time use consumable says enough already. Buying it at an even higher cost just makes it more obvious.
/agree
Having something like a PAO scroll at this early stage is ridiculous. It would never happen in a game, nor should it happen (if you look at the treasure tables). Any pc spending 1/3 of his wealth on a one-use item would be broke in no time flat ...
I heard an argument way back it was OK because if you look at the wealth by level guidelines of the DMG its ok, because you'll level and make all that gold back. WRONG. That wealth by level guidelines are how much total wealth you should have at a given level - including magic items (which you usually resell for 1/2 of their value). You're not going to find a giant pile of coins and no magic items as your big treasure haul, that usually just doesn't happen (if you look at the treasure generation table). So some of that 'wealth' you are going to get back is tied down in the form of items you find, some of which many not be useful to you/you may not want. So, sure, you leveled or whatnot but now you are down a lot of money, and are weaker than normal for the next level ...
Might as well bring Pun Pun or nanobots or something(they're also technically legal!!!) in here for all of the realism that this PAO nonsense has.
You are going to ban spells left and right but you are hesitant to ban buying consumables and spell based 1 shot items? biased much? [sarcasm]Of course the problem has to be the spells it couldn't possibly be that you are letting level 5 PC's use tactics not normally available to them until level 15 ish (the normal minimum level to cast PAO).[/sarcasm]
I tossed out a suggested rule based on people's stated opinion of builds ... And the second rule I posted handles your second concern.
1- If you put a PAO scroll into a pile of treasure for a group of level 5 PC or even level 7 PC you are not following the rules and would ask you to recheck the magic treasure generation tables in the DMG, a scroll for an 8th level spell is considered a major treasure that doesn't even become possible until a CR 10 encounter. If you just throw one in for the hell of it, it better be a plot device or you are simply a bad DM giving PCs things that should not be available to them.
A PAO scroll costs less than the hat of intellect +2 that some people are wearing.
2- The scroll of PAO is already 3k gp which is 1/3 of the PC's allotted wealth. The fact that he needs an item thats a 1 time use consumable says enough already. Buying it at an even higher cost just makes it more obvious.
How is the scroll a 1 time use consumable? The duration is really really really long, so you get a lot of uses out of it.
Consider: Sword +1 (2350) (+1 to hit and damage), PAO (3000) +7 to hit, +10 to damage +12 to AC, bonuses to saves, + other stuff ... Um, sign me up. The point is that on a gp limit, this is insufficient to handle the PAO issue.
Finally, none of the builds in here (save the explosive runes caster) have been mechanically broken. They have simply passed your gauntlet which does nothing more than point out how bad the CR system needs an overhaul.
Um, there are quite a number of builds that are mechanically broken. Look at the ones in the "Cannot compete" section.
There are a number of builds that cannot compete in this arena and were not submitted. The successes by optimized characters using overpowed/broken tactics (going nova, metagaming, broken spells/etc) does not reflect badly on a CR system that is based on more normal characters.
Huh... Most magic items are extensions of spellcasters or at least pseudo-casters.
This is a basic disagreement between the two camps -- and I have posted it in the FAQ section on page one.
Basically it boils down to the following
If any character that casts spells, uses spell-like items (potions, wands, scrolls), or magic items (healing belt, sword +1) counts as a caster, then there are no noncasters to participate in the discussion. Alternately, if noncasters are not allowed to use any magic item (magic armor, sword, etc), but casters are, then noncasters are not able to be played in DnD.
Artificers are pseudo-casters. Other than that class you need to have a caster level to choose item crafting feats,
My opinion is that artificers are casters. They have infusions per day which is a form of a spell list.
Banning abused overpowered spells kind of defeats the purpose of this debate. I vote no on this rule.
The purpose for the proposed ban is the abolishment of low level characters using high level character tactics ... however, your vote (like everyone elses) is being tallied.
/agree
Having something like a PAO scroll at this early stage is ridiculous. It would never happen in a game, nor should it happen (if you look at the treasure tables). Any pc spending 1/3 of his wealth on a one-use item would be broke in no time flat ...
I heard an argument way back it was OK because if you look at the wealth by level guidelines of the DMG its ok, because you'll level and make all that gold back. WRONG. That wealth by level guidelines are how much total wealth you should have at a given level - including magic items (which you usually resell for 1/2 of their value). You're not going to find a giant pile of coins and no magic items as your big treasure haul, that usually just doesn't happen (if you look at the treasure generation table). So some of that 'wealth' you are going to get back is tied down in the form of items you find, some of which many not be useful to you/you may not want. So, sure, you leveled or whatnot but now you are down a lot of money, and are weaker than normal for the next level ...
Might as well bring Pun Pun or nanobots or something(they're also technically legal!!!) in here for all of the realism that this PAO nonsense has.
Which is why the vote is taking place.
And the comment about the pile of gold, remember that one participant used his entire WBL to craft all his items. So this has already happened.
I seriously doubt anyone who uses a scroll of PAO will do anything but record the scroll on their character sheet (then expend it) so they are keeping track of it for the WBL guide.
However, remember than the DMM Cleric is using 4000 gp at present for one shots. So arguing that a PAO character (3000) is not abiding by WBL expenditures but DMM is, is not accurate.
A PAO scroll costs less than the hat of intellect +2 that some people are wearing.
And a hat of intellect can be in a pile of treasure for a CR 5-7 encounters. while a scroll with an 8th level spell can not.
How is the scroll a 1 time use consumable? The duration is really really really long, so you get a lot of uses out of it.
Consider: Sword +1 (2350) (+1 to hit and damage), PAO (3000) +7 to hit, +10 to damage +12 to AC, bonuses to saves, + other stuff ... Um, sign me up. The point is that on a gp limit, this is insufficient to handle the PAO issue.
And that sword can't be dispelled either where as if you get dispelled with a scroll of PAO on your out 3k gp and can't use your build again till you find another. Sorry but there is no way to argue that a scroll is not a 1 time use object. once you use it it's gone.
Um, there are quite a number of builds that are mechanically broken. Look at the ones in the "Cannot compete" section.
There are a number of builds that cannot compete in this arena and were not submitted.
So you are refusing to run broken characters in a thread where you are looking for examples of broken casters.... ok sure your thread buddy. By RAW they are legal as are things like the revised bombing the city builds which will nuke everything within 50 miles and can be done below level 7 (if that doesn't describe a broken caster nothing short of pun pun will convince you).
The successes by optimized characters using overpowed/broken tactics (going nova, metagaming, broken spells/etc) does not reflect badly on a CR system that is based on more normal characters.
please define "normal". In a game where no one uses normal character (like a thread where you are asking for optimized entries) a CR system balanced for normal characters is useless.
An optimized character should always be able to solo an encounter at his level. Pitting said character up against multiple encounters at the same level does nothing but stress constant abilities over use /day and the vacian casting system (which thank god is getting an overhaul in 4E). If you want a real challenge pitt a ECL 5 PC up against a CR9 encounter and see how they do since no PC group is supposed to fight something 4 CR's ahead of them except in greyhawk boss fights so they sure as hell shouldn't be able to solo it.
An optimized character should always be able to solo an encounter at his level. Pitting said character up against multiple encounters at the same level does nothing but stress constant abilities over use /day and the vacian casting system (which thank god is getting an overhaul in 4E). If you want a real challenge pitt a ECL 5 PC up against a CR9 encounter and see how they do since no PC group is supposed to fight something 4 CR's ahead of them except in greyhawk boss fights so they sure as hell shouldn't be able to solo it.
While I disagree with the first sentance of the statement, why don't you post a mini adventure with a bunch of CR 9's in it. we can see whoes level 5 characters can pass it.
You will take 12 points of acid damage a round from the 1 point of splash damage from each one. Probably could just lob them down without being a target for your crossbow since they don't have to hit you, they just have to get w/in 5 ft. 12*5=60 damage over 5 rounds
I think you're missing the part where I have acid resistance 17.
@Ikeren
ECS and Dragonmarked.
I don't know what either of that is referring to. My character isn't dragonmarked and I don't know the mechanics. Are you suggesting a way to edge in a little more power? Same with ECS? Eberron Campaign Setting? OHHHHHHh - Dragonmarked is from ECS? Is it good? I don't get it.
Why not? Aren't we optimizing? What makes you able to decided for us what is reasonable to expect from NPCs? Why can you find just the right PrCed wizard to buff you as you want but other characters can not?
So you admit that if you don't have the incantatrix to buff you the DMM cleric fails the planar challenge? Very interesting, since my rogue does not really need a NPC caster at all.
You see, a scroll of PAO costs just 3,000 gold, and a DC 35 UMD check. A mere +15 UMD ensures that the scroll will be activated and the character will be under PAO forever. Since even rolling a 1 means only the character cannot try again for one day, given a few days anyone with +15 in UMD will succeed in activating the scroll.
It just costs 3000 gold, instead of 1200.
I found something odd in the UMD rules.
Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
You are using UMD to put it on your list. You still have to emulate caster level to avoid mishaps, so I'm not really certain how that works. You do have it on your spell list, but you don't have the pre-requisite caster level 15. You're making a 1d20 caster level check versus DC 36. Pretty sure you can't get that. Using UMD to emulate caster level isn't listed under uses of UMD. This basically prevents non-caster UMDer's from ever accessing higher then about 5th or 7th level spells with more than 50% accuracy (since they can get CL from a variety of places, such as spells, ioun stones, items, etc).
(Otto’s, I am ignoring the kobolds due to illegal spell storing ammo).
Why? Numerous of us have run it, and despite how iffy it is, we all feel we're up to the challenge.
Which with only 2 salvos to work with they could not do.
16 shots = 80% chance someone rolls a natural 20. 1 fireball hits.
New Rules:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
1) No. Alter self highlights one of the reasons why casters are so overpowered.
2) Yes. PAO rogues wouldn't be able to copy casters by buying high level effects.
1. No outside spellcasting. You can get recovery spells between challenges.
2. No consumables higher level than the challenge. Caster level 5/3rd level spells for level 5, caster level 7/4th level spells for L7 update.
All of my consumables (except the wands) are CL=NA - Their magical components or alchemicals with no CL. I approve of both these rules.
If you have come recently to this thread it is likely you don't know that ALL the first casters posted used polymorph mechanics to show the power of casters.
Hey, I was like, 3rd? What am I? Sliced Cheese?
Really? What is a balanced spell? I keep seening the same unbalanced spells in the casters writeups all the time: wraithstrike, venomfire, shivering touch, DMM-persistent spells (all of them), etc. Level 7 will bring us clerics with divine power, another utterly broken spell.
No such thing as Balanced spells, that is why they are better :D
- any setting specific material: not sufficient relevance to DnD as a whole.
- encounter sequences lasting just a few minutes: too unrealistic.
- the ban on Psionics needs to be removed. It greatly favors casters.
No, Yes/ (Did you see the guy that posted a week long adventure? I'll run that with my new - no incantatrix - build), Yes (I would love to see someone who knows psionics to come in here and dominate with a psion or wilder)
How is this thread still going? Hasn't anyone figured out that Meyer is too entrenched in his view to accept anything as fact that doesn't coincide with his view? Am I just not stubborn enough(that felt odd to type)?
You wouldn't believe how much I've learned about optimization from this thread. I combed all my books and made a list of spells that are persistable and other good spells, with information (so no, I can't send it to you, it's personal reference only). I've found neat alchemicals and swift actions everywhere, and am generally really enjoying myself.
I'll work on a new cleric version without the spells being purchased sometime.
Somebody put forth a multi-tiered marking system, where 10 was an absolute success, 6 a near success, 5 a tie, 4 a near failure, and 1 a minor success. Can someone point me to that post again please?
How is this thread still going? Hasn't anyone figured out that Meyer is too entrenched in his view to accept anything as fact that doesn't coincide with his view? Am I just not stubborn enough(that felt odd to type)?
its really cool now. you get to build an overpowered and broken character and test him against adventures. I personally don't care much about the arguement itself but the challenge is the cool part.
its really cool now. you get to build an overpowered and broken character and test him against adventures. I personally don't care much about the arguement itself but the challenge is the cool part.
Ah. That explains it. People aren't taking this as CO, but as TO and just don't care about the fundamental idea. Thanks.
Ah. That explains it. People aren't taking this as CO, but as TO and just don't care about the fundamental idea. Thanks.
you should make a character and join in. I wouldn't suggest using anything that uses PaO however as its likley to get banned here pretty quickly. from what I've seen you have pretty decent charOp skills. I bet you'd enjoy it.
I don't know what either of that is referring to. My character isn't dragonmarked and I don't know the mechanics. Are you suggesting a way to edge in a little more power? Same with ECS? Eberron Campaign Setting? OHHHHHHh - Dragonmarked is from ECS? Is it good? I don't spite how iffy it is, we all feel we're up to the challenge.
Eberron Campaign Setting and Dragonmarked are both books from which a submitted character drew feats. As I recall you were asking where they (the feats) could be found.
Ah. That explains it. People aren't taking this as CO, but as TO and just don't care about the fundamental idea. Thanks.
I've submitted an enchanter twice (5th level and 7th level) no broken stuff, and he did really well.
Though I really like enchanting, personally ...Ah. That explains it. People aren't taking this as CO, but as TO and just don't care about the fundamental idea. Thanks.
Yeah - testing the different 'mini-adventures' against a character concept and then trying to tweak away short comings in the concept is the part I am having fun with.
Going to want to do a melee build but haven't gotten to that yet. I'm also thinking about an Archivist/Sacred Exorcist using DMM...since sacred exorcist would grant the turning ability. The archivist would spend most of his money on scrolls to gather arcane spells through domain spells. Want to see how effective that would be through some of these.
This is fun...and helps think about optimized tactics and shortcomings through practical testing. Most of the time in adventures I tend to end up in a broken record cycle and haven't really thought through the variety of obstacles the character might encounter and how it might overcome them.
you should make a character and join in. I wouldn't suggest using anything that uses PaO however as its likley to get banned here pretty quickly. from what I've seen you have pretty decent charOp skills. I bet you'd enjoy it.
I would, but I'm hoping this thread dies. I kinda dislike feeding the trolls. Wait a minute, I *did* submit a level 7 druid 25 pages or so ago. Have we gotten past level 5 yet?
This is a silly thing to vote to ban. All you need to do is post a mini-adventure which takes more than minutes. Salladin did this for his second cr7.
I did post an encounter that didn't allow insane buffing, along with listing time, weather, terrain (per DMG), victory conditions, and monster tactics, but noone played it, presumably because it's not a "handholding cave".
How does it greatly favor casters?
Psions, wilders would count as casters.
Personally -- I feel that the psychic warrior is similar to the duskblade, in that the chasis is a noncaster -- but it self-buffs/etc as a caster.
Casters don't gain as much from multiclassing in psionics (alternatively, manifesters don't gain much from multiclassing in magic) while noncasters have a lot to gain from psionics.
I don't know what either of that is referring to. My character isn't dragonmarked and I don't know the mechanics. Are you suggesting a way to edge in a little more power? Same with ECS? Eberron Campaign Setting? OHHHHHHh - Dragonmarked is from ECS? Is it good? I don't get it.
You asked where Mark of Xoriat feat tree is from: answer is ECS and Dragonmarked.
Ah, whereas where I play, I try to get a potion of fly as early as possible ... as if you need it, you have it. If you don't, well ... its cheap insurance.
Having fought flying wizards with prot from arrows/etc ... or flying creatures with DR, etc ... it has saved me more than once.
Some people play that way. Others try not to make themselves dependent on any one tactic. Where I do most of my play, cash spent on a consumable is pretty much forever gone from your total cash, so many players are more conservative.
By the time you're fighting flying wizards with DR (generally APL4 but sometimes APL2, not intro modules) melees will have a str adjusted bow and oil of magic weapon, or perhaps oil of magic stone depenidng on your build. Those things are cheaper than fly and not a lot less effective than your melee attack.
By level 6, when your melee attack really starts to take off, a potion of fly is still very pricy, but a scroll might not be (lend it to the wizard).
By level 12, you're probably a fool if you don't have a way to fly, because it's cheap and your melee attack is now much, much better than your missile attack (on a typical melee)
But that's just how I play
Others though, belive potions of invis and fly for the whole party at level 3 are essential. I think they're nuts and they probably think I'm nuts but we both manage to be successful in our adventures.
I can think of two encounters in all the ones Bela did where a potion of fly would have been decisive in my favor that he didn't win anyway (both in planar encounter...elemental and troll fight). As most encounters were in caves...*shrug*. My character uses skills to bypass most physical challenges that fly helps with, aided by anklet of translocation for weird stuff.
It's a style thing I guess. To me fly is something you start seeing around level 6 and usually from a spell slot rather than a consumable till level 8+.
How is this thread still going? Hasn't anyone figured out that Meyer is too entrenched in his view to accept anything as fact that doesn't coincide with his view? Am I just not stubborn enough(that felt odd to type)?
Because we're having fun. Most folks are treating this as a set of interesting solo-play adventures and an optomization challenge. The outcome isn't nearly as important as the fun of attempting it.
16 shots = 80% chance someone rolls a natural 20. 1 fireball hits.
Timing came out wrong...it fell in the 20%.
Not like one fireball hitting changes the outcome any. Bela only used 3 clw charges in the entire fight. He had healing left over for the fireball damage, and the total combined damage, even if he failed save, was less than his hitpoint total.
Because we're having fun. Most folks are treating this as a set of interesting solo-play adventures and an optomization challenge. The outcome isn't nearly as important as the fun of attempting it.
Yeah. I didn't realize how much it's purpose had been twisted around. Carry on.
I did post an encounter that didn't allow insane buffing, along with listing time, weather, terrain (per DMG), victory conditions, and monster tactics, but noone played it, presumably because it's not a "handholding cave".
I don't know the stats on the Arrow Demon. If you could post the relevant information (AC, hit points, attacks, relevant skill bonuses, movement, saves, etc) some of us might try it.
Show
Mr. Burns Level 4 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 3 alignment less varient/ Totemist 1
Hp 46.5
Ac 23 (6 armor 3 natural 3 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 5
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 23 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt-->>>Retrain for azure toughness
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Saves Fortitude 11 Will 2 Reflex 4
Skills swim 4 , spot 4 listen 4 knowledge religion 1, planes 1 arcana 1
Essentia pool 5
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 3
Lightning Gauntlets 1
Planar Chausable
wormtail belt 1
blink shirt
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
1300 on chainmail +1
Large shield wood 1157+1
Morning star 8
6 Potions of healing 300
Belt of healingx3 2250
Latern
sling
20 bullets
20 stones
Club
Backpack
~250gp remaining
Attacks melee+3 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon 2d8 range 20ft save 18
Mr. Burns Level 4 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 3 alignment less varient/ Totemist 1
Hp 46.5
Ac 23 (6 armor 3 natural 3 shield 1 dex ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 5
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 23 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt-->>>Retrain for azure toughness
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Saves Fortitude 11 Will 2 Reflex 4
Skills swim 4 , spot 4 listen 4 knowledge religion 1, planes 1 arcana 1
Essentia pool 5
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 3
Lightning Gauntlets 1
Planar Chausable
wormtail belt 1
blink shirt
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
1300 on chainmail +1
Large shield wood 1157+1
Morning star 8
6 Potions of healing 300
Belt of healingx3 2250
Latern
sling
20 bullets
20 stones
Club
Backpack
~250gp remaining
Attacks melee+3 d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon 2d8 range 20ft save 18
This is a basic disagreement between the two camps -- and I have posted it in the FAQ section on page one.
Basically it boils down to the following
If any character that casts spells, uses spell-like items (potions, wands, scrolls), or magic items (healing belt, sword +1) counts as a caster, then there are no noncasters to participate in the discussion. Alternately, if noncasters are not allowed to use any magic item (magic armor, sword, etc), but casters are, then noncasters are not able to be played in DnD.
You, misunderstood what I was saying. Casters have the ability to lend power to other classes. Using that power doesn't make you a caster.
The purpose for the proposed ban is the abolishment of low level characters using high level character tactics ... however, your vote (like everyone elses) is being tallied.
Maybe, you worded it in a way that where is says something other than what you actually mean. It seems to me the the vote included casting spells yourself.
New Rules:
The following spells are not allowed in this thread due to abuse by caster and noncaster alike: "Alter self, polymorph, PAO, Shapechange".
"No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
(This means that a level 5 participant in a CR7 mini-adventure has a different caster limit than a level 7 participant in that same mini-adventure)
Vote yes (to agree to ban) or no (to continue with the cheese)
Now for the Level 4 cave
Why do you win init. every time?
Now for the Level 4 cave
You forgot to put skills of your character.
Maybe i am wrong, but when you get a soulmeld shaped, you can't wear a magic item in the slot where the soulmeld is shaped.
So when you shape your wormtail belt, you can't wear and use a healing belt.
ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action (see below).
So when you fighting the bear, each time you move backward, you give an AoO to the bear unless you move 5ft. If you do that, the bear can move 5ft upward and make a full attack and not a single attack.
Could you explain which way you are using (5ft backward step (full attack) or move action backward (AoO)?
Having something like a PAO scroll at this early stage is ridiculous. It would never happen in a game, nor should it happen (if you look at the treasure tables). Any pc spending 1/3 of his wealth on a one-use item would be broke in no time flat ...
I heard an argument way back it was OK because if you look at the wealth by level guidelines of the DMG its ok, because you'll level and make all that gold back. WRONG. That wealth by level guidelines are how much total wealth you should have at a given level - including magic items (which you usually resell for 1/2 of their value). You're not going to find a giant pile of coins and no magic items as your big treasure haul, that usually just doesn't happen (if you look at the treasure generation table). So some of that 'wealth' you are going to get back is tied down in the form of items you find, some of which many not be useful to you/you may not want. So, sure, you leveled or whatnot but now you are down a lot of money, and are weaker than normal for the next level ...
Might as well bring Pun Pun or nanobots or something(they're also technically legal!!!) in here for all of the realism that this PAO nonsense has.
You forget that PAO is permanent when you change from outsider into outsider. At this level it is no different to purchasing a permanencied spell. PAO is not a one-time buff, it will last until dispelled, and it is unlikely to get dispelled for many, many levels, being a CL 15 spell.
And remember that PAO actually costs 1200 gold using the NPC spell services table in the PHB, less than a full plate. Buying a scroll, far more expensive, was something I did to show the build actually did not need NPC casters.
Speaking of wealth by level guidelines, I invite you all to check out the table on page 54 of the DMG. It shows how much cash a PC is expected to expend in consumables every level.
1) No. Alter self highlights one of the reasons why casters are so overpowered.
2) Yes. PAO rogues wouldn't be able to copy casters by buying high level effects.
So casters show off their power through spells like Alter Self, but classes with UMD as skills do not show their power by using scrolls?
Isn't that hypocritical?
So you are refusing to run broken characters in a thread where you are looking for examples of broken casters.... ok sure your thread buddy. By RAW they are legal as are things like the revised bombing the city builds which will nuke everything within 50 miles and can be done below level 7 (if that doesn't describe a broken caster nothing short of pun pun will convince you).
Druids wearing metal armor and overspending are mechanically broken (illegal). They do not work as posted.
Casters changing two size categories through alter self are mechanically broken (illegal). They do not work as posted.
Maybe you and I were using two different definitions of "mechanically broken" -- I thought you were meaning, not playable.
I would, but I'm hoping this thread dies. I kinda dislike feeding the trolls. Wait a minute, I *did* submit a level 7 druid 25 pages or so ago. Have we gotten past level 5 yet?
You are at level 7 if that is what you decide. Feel free to take him through the level 6+7 encounters. If you don't mind though, can you also show it as level 5? (just for giggles)
Some people play that way. Others try not to make themselves dependent on any one tactic. Where I do most of my play, cash spent on a consumable is pretty much forever gone from your total cash, so many players are more conservative.
I might never use the potion, but having it sometimes makes the DM not throw encounters at us that he thinks we are unprepared for (insurance).
By the time you're fighting flying wizards with DR (generally APL4 but sometimes APL2, not intro modules) melees will have a str adjusted bow and oil of magic weapon, or perhaps oil of magic stone depenidng on your build. Those things are cheaper than fly and not a lot less effective than your melee attack.
My str is 20, so a strength bow (master worked) will cost almost 1000 gp. Which is a nice chunk of change. I get a lot of bonuses to my melee attacks which do not happen in my ranged attacks.
By level 6, when your melee attack really starts to take off, a potion of fly is still very pricy, but a scroll might not be (lend it to the wizard).
A scroll of fly assumes:
1) The wizard is willing/able to use their action to give you flight (limited actions, there might be other things he needs/wants to do).
2) Initiative order works in your favor
3) He is able to cast it (no silence/etc)
4) dunno
Having the potion, puts you in control.
By level 12, you're probably a fool if you don't have a way to fly, because it's cheap and your melee attack is now much, much better than your missile attack (on a typical melee)
I agree
Others though, believe potions of invis and fly for the whole party at level 3 are essential. I think they're nuts and they probably think I'm nuts but we both manage to be successful in our adventures.
I can think of two encounters in all the ones Bela did where a potion of fly would have been decisive in my favor that he didn't win anyway (both in planar encounter...elemental and troll fight). As most encounters were in caves...*shrug*. My character uses skills to bypass most physical challenges that fly helps with, aided by anklet of translocation for weird stuff.
It's a style thing I guess. To me fly is something you start seeing around level 6 and usually from a spell slot rather than a consumable till level 8+.
We agree to disagree.
Yeah. I didn't realize how much it's purpose had been twisted around. Carry on.
The original purpose was to see examples of overpowered casters. People are posting overpowered casters. (People are posting overpowered melees for a comparison and validation).
You, misunderstood what I was saying. Casters have the ability to lend power to other classes. Using that power doesn't make you a caster.
Agreed.
Maybe, you worded it in a way that where is says something other than what you actually mean. It seems to me the the vote included casting spells yourself.
There are two separate rules on the table.
One proposes a ban on certain spells (which are used/able to be used by both casters and noncasters) the second bans levels of spells (0-9) based on the character level participating in the adventure.
- His equipment was suboptimial.
- He could purchase large masterwork studded leather armor for his undead ogres. That armor would have no negative effects for the Ogre Zombies because it has no armor check penalty.
- Also, the 'Weak' Zombie Ogre could benefit from a masterwork large greatclub.
- He could purchase large masterwork studded leather armor for his undead ogres. That armor would have no negative effects for the Ogre Zombies because it has no armor check penalty.
- Hardened Flesh instead of Weapon Finesse: making him even more deeply entrenched in his corpse crafting to enhance them.
- Arcane Disciple (Undeath) rather than Arcane Disciple (Evil) - more for roleplaying aspects...he could be 'evil' tolerant rather than just plain 'evil'.
- Any ideas for something better than 'Death Armor' for his 1st or 2nd level Necromacy spell that he attains through 'Advanced Learning'? I thought it was going to be cool but in the adventures it hurts more often than it helps.
I will be posting level 5 gurth going through silly here.
Question: If a sorcerer is casting a metamagic altered spell, which consumes his move and standard action to complete, can cast an immediate spell while doing that casting? (will be important for the final battle Lvl5 Gurth has with Yik-Yik)
Level 5 Gurth Dead Walker with updates
Level 5 Gurth trying out Silly - aka Kobold Cave
Encounter 1
Gurth> Summons Undead I to get a human skeleton warrior. Uses skeleton to walk around entrance as 'trap detection'.
Shocker Lizards> Electrocute the skeleton...massive damage is obvious. Shocker Lizards are now known.
-----------------------------------------
Gurth> Leaves to get stuff. With gold he purchases two barrels (2 gp each) with 10 pints of oil per barrel (1 sp per pint), a cart (15 gp), flint and steel (1 gp), and a torch (1 cp).
-----------------------------------------
Zombie Ogres> Haul cart to cave entrance.
Gurth> Removes plugs to barrels so oil is leaking all over cart.
Gurth> Commands Ogre Zombies to throw barrels of oil with cart into center of cave entrace.
Gurth> Commands Ogre Zombies to kill any lizards that flee cave.
Gurth> Lights and tosses torch into cave that is now got a borken cart out oil all over the place
Gurth> Those that don't die from the fire probably flee because of the smoke and zombies kill them.
Lizards dead...
Gurth> Summons Undead I to get a human skeleton warrior. Uses skeleton to walk around entrance as 'trap detection'.
Shocker Lizards> Electrocute the skeleton...massive damage is obvious. Shocker Lizards are now known.
-----------------------------------------
Gurth> Leaves to get stuff. With gold he purchases two barrels (2 gp each) with 10 pints of oil per barrel (1 sp per pint), a cart (15 gp), flint and steel (1 gp), and a torch (1 cp).
-----------------------------------------
Zombie Ogres> Haul cart to cave entrance.
Gurth> Removes plugs to barrels so oil is leaking all over cart.
Gurth> Commands Ogre Zombies to throw barrels of oil with cart into center of cave entrace.
Gurth> Commands Ogre Zombies to kill any lizards that flee cave.
Gurth> Lights and tosses torch into cave that is now got a borken cart out oil all over the place
Gurth> Those that don't die from the fire probably flee because of the smoke and zombies kill them.
Lizards dead...
Hmmm, it is not something I can find in the tables of stuff sold in the PHB, DMG or any other suplement. I wouldn't allow to purchase the services of an incantatrix like that, and particularly not letting the player to pick a price to the service.
talk about an abrupt about-faceit almost seems like youre following the thread mainly to confuse the issue anytime a caster gets some power going.
UMD? confuses the issue, you're trying to negate the value of the caster's spell lists. What else do they have at low level?
PAO? an attempt, looking successful, to remove one of the most broken low level spells, alter self. That makes the whole thread pointless if it occurs btw.
Someone posts about an incantatrix's class ability, the sort of thing you and meyers claim to want to see, and you're immediately all over discrediting it by adopting it into your build, illegally. Once it's shown to be invalid for this thread and useless for your character (tho still powerful, kudos to Ike for bringing it up) you do a 180 and pretend you diligently pored over your manuals to stop the caster cheating. Read every d20 book you had in that hour between agreeing and disagreeing, did you?
Well, at least we all appear to agree that the incantatrix is overpowered, at least in a group.
and to Ikeren for the We agree to disagree.
Yup. To me, a permanent item that you'll use your entire career (the 1000gp mw bow) is a better choice than a 700gp one shot item, because what if you have TWO flying encounters in a day? Or heck, between level 1 and level 5? The bow's pretty economical, gets the job done and lets you contribute.
It becomes weaker relative to enemy defenses and your melee attacks as you level, which, depending on the disparity between your bow attack and melee attacks, makes the potion of fly more and more attractive, to the point where you finally buy it.
You'll note that Bela, with 22 strength (raging) vs 12 dex doesn't buy a bow but relies exclusively on thrown weapons (and tower shield vs long ranged fire, although that has not really come up). He gets a fly potion relatively early in his career for me as a player because he's doing solo work and because once he gets iteratives and delay potion the thrown weapons aren't as effective relative to his melee attacks, even with brutal throw. Brutal throw remains useful enough to keep though...thrown weapons outrange reach and it's always handy to stick a tanglefoot bag to anything size large or smaller.
Agree with potion being better than scroll or slotted spell from action perspective. It's also better if the fly target in the party isn't you. (where I play, some days you are the level 4 guy at the level 6 table, other days you're the level 8 guy at the level 6 table. Nobody is gonna cast fly on the level 4 barbarian when there is a level 8 dervish in the party....)
it almost seems like youre following the thread mainly to confuse the issue anytime a caster gets some power going.
UMD? confuses the issue, you're trying to negate the value of the caster's spell lists. What else do they have at low level?
PAO? an attempt, looking successful, to remove one of the most broken low level spells, alter self. That makes the whole thread pointless if it occurs btw.
Someone posts about an incantatrix's class ability, the sort of thing you and meyers claim to want to see, and you're immediately all over discrediting it by adopting it into your build, illegally. Once it's shown to be invalid for this thread and useless for your character (tho still powerful, kudos to Ike for bringing it up) you do a 180 and pretend you diligently pored over your manuals to stop the caster cheating. Read every d20 book you had in that hour between agreeing and disagreeing, did you?
Well, at least we all appear to agree that the incantatrix is overpowered, at least in a group.
I think you're misunderstanding. The incantrix was not brought up as a PC attempting the challenges, it was an NPC spellcaster who applied a bunch of metamagic for free. That was the issue. Having custom made NPCs use class abilities that do not already have a price tag, which would require a DM to delegate. Since we have no DM, we can't really deal with that kind of stuff in this thread. Note that one of the responses to this was "I get a FB to inspire Frenzy on me," and another could be "I hire some Marshals as hirelings to just stand around and Motive X."
Drakinar, the "broken" casters that were deemed ineligible were not broken in the overpowered sense, they were incomplete builds. If you leave a bunch of spells known unpicked, it's really easy to just metagame challenges away. "Oh, of course I totally had that memorized and I just win, so stfu." Meyer has made the point multiple times that anyone who wants to pick up a "broken" build and make it compete is welcome to.
The scoring system brought up that gives points for not multiclassing favors casters. If you aren't taking an XP hit, I really don't see an issue with multi-classing. I agree with Meyer that that is an advantage of non-casters since they don't have to be careful about losing caster progression. Even if you do take an XP hit, that's just something to factor in as a "weakness."
You forgot to put skills of your character.
Maybe i am wrong, but when you get a soulmeld shaped, you can't wear a magic item in the slot where the soulmeld is shaped.
So when you shape your wormtail belt, you can't wear and use a healing belt.
That would only apply if I had bound it to my waist. I can shape the melds where ever, only binding will close an item slot.
So when you fighting the bear, each time you move backward, you give an AoO to the bear unless you move 5ft. If you do that, the bear can move 5ft upward and make a full attack and not a single attack.
Could you explain which way you are using (5ft backward step (full attack) or move action backward (AoO)?
You have a point, I will have to rerun the bear. I would have to rerun a couple other encounters also, but I think only the bear was close enough to matter.
Why do you win init. every time?
Because my bonus is higher. It only mattered against the bear, which I'm rerunning and maybe the ooze which has an init penalty of -5 to my +5, also against the dragon I gave it Init.
I think you're misunderstanding. The incantrix was not brought up as a PC attempting the challenges, it was an NPC spellcaster who applied a bunch of metamagic for free. That was the issue. Having custom made NPCs use class abilities that do not already have a price tag, which would require a DM to delegate. Since we have no DM, we can't really deal with that kind of stuff in this thread. Note that one of the responses to this was "I get a FB to inspire Frenzy on me," and another could be "I hire some Marshals as hirelings to just stand around and Motive X."
Im not misunderstanding at all, read back thru the thread.
Ikeren, looking through the books for ways to optimize his character, saw that incantatrix could give him a serious boost at no cost to his own character, a very tasty class ability. He looked at writing that into his character to show caster strength.
Argaud saw a caster boosting a caster, and posted that he would include that into his own build, even tho he couldn't do so legally, and did not object to Ikeren buying a class ability, or the pricing, or the difficulty of the ability.
I posted that it would not work for him, as he isn't a caster, and he responded by fishing for situations in which he might be able to use the ability. There don't appear to be any. I then responded to Ikeren mentioning that it was a class ability, not spellcasting services, and wouldn't work well for this challenge, tho it works great in a standard party.
THEN Argaud did a 180, and decided he needed to post his strong disapproval of Ikeren's method. After attempting to shoehorn it into his own build. Thats fairly ridiculous, isn't it?
I think you're misunderstanding. The incantrix was not brought up as a PC attempting the challenges, it was an NPC spellcaster who applied a bunch of metamagic for free. That was the issue. Having custom made NPCs use class abilities that do not already have a price tag, which would require a DM to delegate. Since we have no DM, we can't really deal with that kind of stuff in this thread.
Spell
The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at his or her convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question). If you want to bring the spellcaster somewhere to cast a spell you need to negotiate with him or her, and the default answer is no.
The cost given is for a spell with no cost for a material component or focus component and no XP cost. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell.
If the spell has a focus component (other than a divine focus), add 1/10 the cost of that focus to the cost of the spell. If the spell has an XP cost, add 5 gp per XP lost.
Furthermore, if a spell has dangerous consequences, the spellcaster will certainly require proof that you can and will pay for dealing with any such consequences (that is, assuming that the spellcaster even agrees to cast such a spell, which isn’t certain). In the case of spells that transport the caster and characters over a distance, you will likely have to pay for two castings of the spell, even if you aren’t returning with the caster.
In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.
So you travel to a metropolis, find a caster capable of casting 8th level spells and that knows PAO, that they have no opposition to it on moral, political or religious grounds (PHB pg.132) and still have to convince the spell caster that PAOing you into something isn't going to have bad effects down the line.
"Since we have no DM, we can't really deal with that kind of stuff in this thread."
I did post an encounter that didn't allow insane buffing, along with listing time, weather, terrain (per DMG), victory conditions, and monster tactics, but noone played it, presumably because it's not a "handholding cave".
aside from the stats, which I dont need but it would have been nice to say at least what book the arrow demon was in instead of me hunting it down, a bit of explanation of how we come across the arrow demon would be helpful. I know we can have long lasting buffs up but do I know I'm fighting an arrow demon at the begining of the day. My standard spells memorized isn't enough to take him out at level 5 and even with an extended rope trick I doubt I'd be allowed to swap them out during the fight.
My tactics would involve winning intiative and casting inviability. then using a bunch of fiendish hawks to locate him amongst the battle feild. going over to him and while using the true strike and spectral hand combo with maximized shivering touch to almost kill him. he then would have essentially three options. attacking me would mean I still live due to his lowered dex or charging me in which case I abrupt jaunt away. teleporting away and hiding again while my hawks hunt him again or summoning another demon. if he sommons another demon or I hunt him down again I would cast a normal shivering touch for the kill.
Maybe i am wrong, but when you get a soulmeld shaped, you can't wear a magic item in the slot where the soulmeld is shaped.
It only takes up a item slot when bound to a chakra.
Drakinar, the "broken" casters that were deemed ineligible were not broken in the overpowered sense, they were incomplete builds. If you leave a bunch of spells known unpicked, it's really easy to just metagame challenges away. "Oh, of course I totally had that memorized and I just win, so stfu." Meyer has made the point multiple times that anyone who wants to pick up a "broken" build and make it compete is welcome to.
Another work should be used for builds that do not work by the Rules As Written to avoid confusion.
I vote for illegal.
Finally, none of the builds in here (save the explosive runes caster) have been mechanically broken. They have simply passed your gauntlet which does nothing more than point out how bad the CR system needs an overhaul.
Thanks. :D
Turbatus Periclitor
Turbatus Periclitor
Chaotic Evil Human
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Feat Rogue 1 / Incarnate 1 / Cancer Mage 1
HP: 42
AC: 16 (4arm, 2dex)
Initiative: +6
BAB/Grapple: +3/+367
Abilities:
Str: 738 (4pts, 730disease)
Dex: 14 (6pts)
Con: 16 (10pts)
Int: 10 (2pts)
Wis: 10 (2pts)
Cha: 10 (2pts, 1level)
Attack:
+1 Glaive
AB: +366
Damage: 1d10+546
10-foot Reach
Saves:
Fortitude: +12 [7base][3abil][2feat]
Reflex: +7 [5base][2abil]
Will: +3 [3base]
Feats:
Flaw: Great Fortitude
Flaw: Toughness
Human: Poison Immunity
HD1: Improved Initiative
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Feat Rogue: Cleave
HD3: Draconic Aura: Vigor
Flaws:
Noncombatant, Shaky
Disease Host: infected with Festering Anger
Sneak Attack +1d6
Soulmelds:
Wind Cloak (1 essentia invested)
Planar Ward
Turbatus Periclitor
Chaotic Evil Human
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Feat Rogue 1 / Incarnate 1 / Cancer Mage 1
HP: 42
AC: 16 (4arm, 2dex)
Initiative: +6
BAB/Grapple: +3/+367
Abilities:
Str: 738 (4pts, 730disease)
Dex: 14 (6pts)
Con: 16 (10pts)
Int: 10 (2pts)
Wis: 10 (2pts)
Cha: 10 (2pts, 1level)
Attack:
+1 Glaive
AB: +366
Damage: 1d10+546
10-foot Reach
Saves:
Fortitude: +12 [7base][3abil][2feat]
Reflex: +7 [5base][2abil]
Will: +3 [3base]
Feats:
Flaw: Great Fortitude
Flaw: Toughness
Human: Poison Immunity
HD1: Improved Initiative
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Feat Rogue: Cleave
HD3: Draconic Aura: Vigor
Flaws:
Noncombatant, Shaky
Disease Host: infected with Festering Anger
Sneak Attack +1d6
Soulmelds:
Wind Cloak (1 essentia invested)
Planar Ward
Skills
:
Hide: +10 [8ranks][2dex]
Move Silent: +10 [8ranks][2dex]
Heal: +5 [3ranks][2wis]
Knowledge (Nature): +3 [3ranks]
Spot: +10 [8ranks][2wis]
Listen: +10 [8ranks][2wis]
Tumble: +8 [6ranks][2dex]
Hide: +10 [8ranks][2dex]
Move Silent: +10 [8ranks][2dex]
Heal: +5 [3ranks][2wis]
Knowledge (Nature): +3 [3ranks]
Spot: +10 [8ranks][2wis]
Listen: +10 [8ranks][2wis]
Tumble: +8 [6ranks][2dex]
How do you defeat the manticore ... as your AC is low enough that two rounds of combat (round 1 is when you drink you potion, round 2 is when you get in range to attack) you die ... Or did I miss something?
Math Notes: Initiative is treated as a single pool, Periclitor rolling against DC (11 + enemy’s init mod)
My attacks are in one pool, enemy attacks are in another. My saves are a separate pool.
”Green Door”
Trolls get surprise, both throw javelins.
First hits (55/50), dealing 2 damage. Fort Save succeeds (80/50). Second javelin Misses (110/150).
Periclitor loses initiative (45/50), and the Forest Trolls move forwards 30 feet each, hurling another volley of javelins. The first hits (165/150) and the second misses (220/250). Average of two damage. Fort save succeeds (160/150).
Periclitor charges one of the trolls, hitting (95/50) and dealing 554 damage, killing it. The other troll moves forward to attack, provoking an AoO, which hits (190/150), killing it.
HP Total: 38
Periclitor picks up the key and returns to the building.
Trolls get surprise, both throw javelins.
First hits (55/50), dealing 2 damage. Fort Save succeeds (80/50). Second javelin Misses (110/150).
Periclitor loses initiative (45/50), and the Forest Trolls move forwards 30 feet each, hurling another volley of javelins. The first hits (165/150) and the second misses (220/250). Average of two damage. Fort save succeeds (160/150).
Periclitor charges one of the trolls, hitting (95/50) and dealing 554 damage, killing it. The other troll moves forward to attack, provoking an AoO, which hits (190/150), killing it.
HP Total: 38
Periclitor picks up the key and returns to the building.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4
If my 5th level wizard was expecting something to ambush him, and could just stay put while trying to bait it out, I think he could win, but it would still be tough. I'd make an unseen servant move a "scarecrow" around, using it as bait. The wizard himself would hide inside an illusionary boulder (Silent Image) and wait for the attack. Once the demon tried to attack the Unseen Servant, the wizard would take total cover behind something (a wagon he brought himself, if nothing else was available) and buff himself.
The demon could only hit him on a 20 then. He'd try to draw it into a situation that forced it to melee (hide inside the wagon, or a Rope Trick, etc). Otherwise, it would come down to a long drawn-out archery battle which the demon would probably still win. This is using spells not on the original character's spell list, but which I was adding while fleshing it out more to try the other challenges. Even counting free spells only, he would still have had several more than the ones I listed originally.
If he has to travel across the plain with no cover and isn't expecting an ambush, the demon will almost certainly win.
Now that I think about it, I think I'll add a covered wagon and a couple of mules to his equipment. Hiding in the wagon while the Unseen Servant drives sounds like a good way for a lone wizard to travel.
Summary: Resting needed. Spends ~23 gold - will pickup standard adventuring gear like torch, flint and steel, grapple, rope, backpack, waterskin, pints of oil, bedroll as a result of this adventure.
Combat tactics for Level 5 Gurth in Kobold Cave (Silly)
Druids wearing metal armor and overspending are mechanically broken (illegal). They do not work as posted.
Casters changing two size categories through alter self are mechanically broken (illegal). They do not work as posted.
Maybe you and I were using two different definitions of "mechanically broken" -- I thought you were meaning, not playable.
Mechanically broken and mechanically illegal are 2 different things which is where our misunderstanding happened. Yes those builds are mechanically illegal and can not be played, my apologies. When I said non of the builds in here were mechanically broken I meant that they did not abuse abilities that have no caps on what they can do.
For examples of mechanically broken abilities:
- Infinite healing at level 1 (dread necromancer with tomb tainted soul feat)
- Artificers retain essence (doesn't matter what it is, normal magic item or artifact, or wether made by man or god after 24 hours with an artificers its a non-magical piece of junk)
- Nano bot builds (capable of giving infinite caster levels).
- Pun Pun
-etc...
These types of things are left unchecked and the only limits put on them are house rules by the DM as the work as far as you wish to take them by RAW.
The set-up: You have discovered information about a pocket dimension that currently has no owners. Centuries ago, the owner/creator was attacked and used the power of the plane, plus his own sacrifice to defeat an interloper.
Ok - first question, just to figure out how to run the encounters - which encounters would attack a minion that was 40ft an serving as a 'point man' so to speak?
I decided to make a truly Overpowered character.
illegal character per the rules in first page of this thread.
Incarnum is an alternate magic system, so your character is is an hybrid.
character
Mr. Burns Level 5 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 3 alignment less varient/ Totemist 2
Hp 61.5
Ac 25 (23 against non evil) (6 armor 3 natural 3 shield 1 dex 2 deflection ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 5
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 23 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Saves Fortitude 12, Reflex 5, Will 2
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt-->>>Retrain for azure toughness->>imp toughness
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Skills swim 4 , spot 4 listen 4 knowledge religion 1, planes 1 arcana 1
Essentia pool 5
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 3
Lightning Gauntlets 1
Lammasu Mantle
wormtail belt 1
blink shirt
blood talons
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
1300 on chainmail +1
Large shield wood 1157+1
Morning star 8
6 Potions of healing 300
Belt of healingx3 2250
Latern
sling
20 bullets
20 stones
Club
Backpack
potion of Fly 750
Potion of acid resistance CL 7 350
~2580gp remaining
Attacks melee+4 3d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon 2d8 range 20ft save 18
Mr. Burns Level 5 NG
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Incarnate 3 alignment less varient/ Totemist 2
Hp 61.5
Ac 25 (23 against non evil) (6 armor 3 natural 3 shield 1 dex 2 deflection ) Touch 11 flatfooted 19
Init+ 5
Stats
Str 14 6pts
Dex 12 6pts -2 racial
Con 23 10pts+6 racial
Int 9 3pt
Wis 8 0
Chr 2 0-4 racial-2 pathetic
Saves Fortitude 12, Reflex 5, Will 2
Feats
Expanded Soulmeld capacity
Imp. inititive
shape soulmeld blink shirt-->>>Retrain for azure toughness->>imp toughness
draconic aura fast healing.
traits slow
Flaws pathetic charisma, Shaky
Skills swim 4 , spot 4 listen 4 knowledge religion 1, planes 1 arcana 1
Essentia pool 5
Soul melds
Mantle of flame 3
Lightning Gauntlets 1
Lammasu Mantle
wormtail belt 1
blink shirt
blood talons
Equipment
100 dragon born ritual
1300 on chainmail +1
Large shield wood 1157+1
Morning star 8
6 Potions of healing 300
Belt of healingx3 2250
Latern
sling
20 bullets
20 stones
Club
Backpack
potion of Fly 750
Potion of acid resistance CL 7 350
~2580gp remaining
Attacks melee+4 3d6 touch or d8+2
Ranged 0 d4+2
Breath weapon 2d8 range 20ft save 18
Manticore
Show
I think we both see each other at very far range, I take a full defensive action and move forward. It gets into range and spikes me, 6 spikes with 5% chance of hit for a total of 30 on said spikes. It eventually his me with 2 spikes and closes in. I am at 48.5. We trade blows It has a +10 to hit versus my AC of 24 so it has a 30% chance. I have to roll a 7 or better so I have a 65% shot. It hits me twice for 20 I hit it 4 times for 40, and it takes 28 fire damage from my mantle so win. I am at 28hp, I let my aura heal me up to 31 hp and use a charge of the first belt leaving me with 40hp.
CR1?
Technically this should be 4 CR 1 encounters and 1 CR 2 encounter. However, it spams Ghoul Glyph and a kobold build that can easily take advantage of it. So if you run this on a 1st level party you need to be shot in the face, with a hammer.
Ok - first question, just to figure out how to run the encounters - which encounters would attack a minion that was 40ft an serving as a 'point man' so to speak?
I'm basing it off the monster's Intelligence or Wisdom, whichever is lower. Open terrain means the 'point man' may not necessarily be the closest one to the monster(s).
Trolls (11 Int and Wis): 55% chance to attack the character, tracked separately.
Chraal (9 Int and 10 Wis): 45% chance to attack the character.
Boneclaw (14 Int and Wis): 70% chance to attack the character.
Dread Blossom Swarm (Int -): 0% chance to make a choice. They'll attack the first thing that walks into the area.
Twisted Guardian (11 Int and 12 Wis): 55% chance to attack the character.
Like previously, track this as its own accumulated percentage.
This will affect which ones attack the minion and which will not, though I notice it still leads to the twisted guardian attacking the character.
This will lead to a fair bit of metagaming, no doubt, to assure the ones that are hardest for that character attack the minion instead. I can assign characters with minions the order they get to fight these if that person wants to avoid the appearance of metagaming (it would be random), but I will be a bit busy with holiday stuff so if you just want to randomly assign the order yourself go right ahead.
-=-=-=-=
Grizley, I realize this affects your druid as well, but I hardly think it matters in the end.
Dragonborn mongrelfolk
Are mongrelfolk 0 LA, thought they had a level adjustment? Don't have my RoD with me.
I'm basing it off the monster's Intelligence or Wisdom, whichever is lower. Open terrain means the 'point man' may not necessarily be the closest one to the monster(s).
Trolls (11 Int and Wis): 55% chance to attack the character, tracked separately.
Chraal (9 Int and 10 Wis): 45% chance to attack the character.
Boneclaw (14 Int and Wis): 70% chance to attack the character.
Dread Blossom Swarm (Int -): 0% chance to make a choice. They'll attack the first thing that walks into the area.
Twisted Guardian (11 Int and 12 Wis): 55% chance to attack the character.
Like previously, track this as its own accumulated percentage.
This will affect which ones attack the minion and which will not, though I notice it still leads to the twisted guardian attacking the character.
This will lead to a fair bit of metagaming, no doubt, to assure the ones that are hardest for that character attack the minion instead. I can assign characters with minions the order they get to fight these if that person wants to avoid the appearance of metagaming (it would be random), but I will be a bit busy with holiday stuff so if you just want to randomly assign the order yourself go right ahead.
-=-=-=-=
Grizley, I realize this affects your druid as well, but I hardly think it matters in the end.
Cool, I went ahead and randomed it:
First door: White (45% - Attacks Minion)
Second Door: Green (100% - Attacks Gurth)
Thrid Door: Blue (100% - Attacks Minion)
Fourth Door: Red (170% - Gurth)
Fairly certain Gurth will be lunch meat but we'll see. Probably not till a couple days from now with stuff going on.
Q: Final boss doesn't have lighting conditions. What are they?
B "No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry"
Carnivore: No to a, Yes to b
deathwishjoe: No a, yes to b
Ruthaer: Yes a/b
Ander Spectacular: No to A, Yes to B
PhaedrusXY: No to A, Yes to B
Clawhound: No a, Yes B
Drakinar: No to A, yes B
Grizley: No to A, No to B
EmeraldStreak: No to A, No to B
CalronMoonFlower: No to A, Yes to B
Ikeren: No to A, Yes to B
Augard: No to A, No to B
This yields overwhelmingly, A is not passed but B is passed.
Show
I have several questions regarding interactions among the meta-magic feat Sanctum Spell, item creation, and the pearl of power wondrous item.
1) If a crafter creates a wand of "Sanctum Glitterdust", but creates it outside of his "sanctum", what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a 5th level cleric has the feat "Mage Slayer" (from Complete Arcane), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For instance, could he craft a Wand of Lesser Restoration with a caster level of 1 (and a cost of 2 x 1 x 750gp) since he is a 5th level caster with a -4 caster level penalty?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
5) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
I have several questions regarding interactions among the meta-magic feat Sanctum Spell, item creation, and the pearl of power wondrous item.
1) If a crafter creates a wand of "Sanctum Glitterdust", but creates it outside of his "sanctum", what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a 5th level cleric has the feat "Mage Slayer" (from Complete Arcane), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For instance, could he craft a Wand of Lesser Restoration with a caster level of 1 (and a cost of 2 x 1 x 750gp) since he is a 5th level caster with a -4 caster level penalty?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
5) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
So Meyer_William, are we allowing infinite loops or nigh infinite loops in builds or does that fall under the no Pun-Pun rule. the reason I ask is when most people say no Pun-Pun what they really mean is nothing that will get the DM dual weilding the DMG and the monster manual while leap attacking over the table at you. These would be builds that could not be replicated by non casters. I guess there have been some complaints about all of the builds being presented not being mechanically broken and I thought I'd showcase a few.
Infinite loops would fall under the "no Pun-Pun" rule -- i.e. if the build destroys the planet at level 3, the response is 'Well, that nice, now make another character"
That rule change makes me very happy. Melee successes drop 1.
Um, the noncaster successes is currently 1 (Bela) ... as my character ran his encounters incorrectly per the stupid CustServ ruling (a melee touch attack is not an attack) -- Although I will be abiding by that ruling, I think this is another case of CustServ not having a clue. I mean come on ... how is a Melee Touch Attack not an Attack -- it has the word ATTACK on the end of it.
Now, if they ruled that Punishing Stance only affected Melee Attacks, and since Fire Riposte is a melee TOUCH attack it is not capable of stacking -- then fine. But ... that isn't what they did.
Infinite loops would fall under the "no Pun-Pun" rule -- i.e. if the build destroys the planet at level 3, the response is 'Well, that nice, now make another character"
under this ruling we are not likley to see any truely broken caster builds then. I'll have to see how much a dusk giant effigy cost to craft though. *sighs* too bad I cant stack nigh infinite paragon templates on them as well but I guess I'll live.
Q: Final boss doesn't have lighting conditions. What are they?
Lighted, unknown source, and it will give light sensitivity penalties.
under this ruling we are not likley to see any truly broken caster builds then. I'll have to see how much a dusk giant effigy cost to craft though. *sighs* too bad I cant stack nigh infinite paragon templates on them as well but I guess I'll live.
remember, we don't need to find broken casters -- just overpowered ones.
Are mongrelfolk 0 LA, thought they had a level adjustment? Don't have my RoD with me.
They have an LA of 0.
magmar, please show percentages in your runs as well as round-by-round activities in combat. You are supposed to be using 50% thresholds, which means you still fail some Init checks. What are you trying to show anyways? Is this an example of a caster, or a noncaster?
Its magmer, I was using a 75% threshold for hitting and the like and wasn't paying attention to initiative that well. Also I did fail some initiative checks like the griffon. I'll use a 50% threshhold for Saves as they tend not to come into effect as often. I tend not to care about round by round activities in the matches that aren't close or ones that tend to be I hit you you hit me. Like the choker fight at CR 2. This would be a Caster for this threads purposes I believe.
My email to CustServ:Show
I have several questions regarding interactions among the meta-magic feat Sanctum Spell, item creation, and the pearl of power wondrous item.
1) If a crafter creates a wand of "Sanctum Glitterdust", but creates it outside of his "sanctum", what spell level is used in the cost calculation for the item? Is it considered a level 1 spell or a level 2 spell?
2) If a wizard has the trait Spellgifted (from the Unearthed Arcana), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For example, if a wizard had the trait Spellgifted(Evocation), could he craft a wand of invisibility (or anything else not evocation) with a caster level 2 (and a cost of 2 x 2 x 750gp)?
3) If a 5th level cleric has the feat "Mage Slayer" (from Complete Arcane), how does it affect the caster level of spell trigger and spell completion items he crafts? For instance, could he craft a Wand of Lesser Restoration with a caster level of 1 (and a cost of 2 x 1 x 750gp) since he is a 5th level caster with a -4 caster level penalty?
4) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust outside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind so it could be cast again (1st or 2nd)?
5) If a wizard prepares and then casts a Sanctum Glitterdust inside of his "sanctum", what level pearl of power would be needed to recall the spell to his mind (2nd or 3rd)?
Turbatus Periclitor
Turbatus Periclitor
Chaotic Evil Human
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1/ Warblade 2 / Cancer Mage 1
HP: 49
AC: 26 (4arm, 3dex, 5shield, 4dodge)
Initiative: +6
BAB/Grapple: +4/+368
Abilities:
Str: 738 (730disease)
Dex: 16 (10pts)
Con: 17 (10pts, 1level)
Int: 10 (2pts)
Wis: 10 (2pts)
Cha: 8
Attack:
+1 Longsword
AB: +351
Damage: 1d8+365
Saves:
Fortitude: +12 [7base][3abil][2feat]
Reflex: +7 [5base][2abil]
Will: +1 [1base]
Feats:
Flaw: Great Fortitude
Flaw: Toughness
Human: Poison Immunity
HD1: Improved Initiative
Ftr1: Combat Expertise
HD3: Draconic Aura: Vigor
Flaws:
Noncombatant, Shaky
Maneuvers:
Wall of Blades (x)
Steel Wind (x)
Moment of Perfect Mind
Charging Minotaur (x)
Stance:
Stance of Clarity (x)
Disease Host: infected with Festering Anger
Sneak Attack +1d6
Skills:
Hide: -3 [6ranks][3dex][-12ACP]
Move Silent: -3 [6ranks][3dex][-12ACP]
Heal: +3 [3ranks]
Knowledge (Nature): +2 [2ranks]
Spot: +8 [8ranks]
Listen: +8 [8ranks]
Tumble: -4 [6ranks][2dex][-12ACP]
Concentration: +11 [8ranks][3con]
Jump: +352 [364str][-12ACP]
Climp: +352 [362str][-12ACP]
Gear:
+1 Chain Shirt (1,250)
+1 Tower Shield (1,180)
+1 Longsword (2,315)
Dagger (1)
2 Potions of Fly (1,500)
24 Potions of Faith Healing (1,200)
5 Alchemist’s Fires (100)
Everburning Torch (110)
Total Spent: 7,656
Turbatus Periclitor
Chaotic Evil Human
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1/ Warblade 2 / Cancer Mage 1
HP: 49
AC: 26 (4arm, 3dex, 5shield, 4dodge)
Initiative: +6
BAB/Grapple: +4/+368
Abilities:
Str: 738 (730disease)
Dex: 16 (10pts)
Con: 17 (10pts, 1level)
Int: 10 (2pts)
Wis: 10 (2pts)
Cha: 8
Attack:
+1 Longsword
AB: +351
Damage: 1d8+365
Saves:
Fortitude: +12 [7base][3abil][2feat]
Reflex: +7 [5base][2abil]
Will: +1 [1base]
Feats:
Flaw: Great Fortitude
Flaw: Toughness
Human: Poison Immunity
HD1: Improved Initiative
Ftr1: Combat Expertise
HD3: Draconic Aura: Vigor
Flaws:
Noncombatant, Shaky
Maneuvers:
Wall of Blades (x)
Steel Wind (x)
Moment of Perfect Mind
Charging Minotaur (x)
Stance:
Stance of Clarity (x)
Disease Host: infected with Festering Anger
Sneak Attack +1d6
Skills:
Hide: -3 [6ranks][3dex][-12ACP]
Move Silent: -3 [6ranks][3dex][-12ACP]
Heal: +3 [3ranks]
Knowledge (Nature): +2 [2ranks]
Spot: +8 [8ranks]
Listen: +8 [8ranks]
Tumble: -4 [6ranks][2dex][-12ACP]
Concentration: +11 [8ranks][3con]
Jump: +352 [364str][-12ACP]
Climp: +352 [362str][-12ACP]
Gear:
+1 Chain Shirt (1,250)
+1 Tower Shield (1,180)
+1 Longsword (2,315)
Dagger (1)
2 Potions of Fly (1,500)
24 Potions of Faith Healing (1,200)
5 Alchemist’s Fires (100)
Everburning Torch (110)
Total Spent: 7,656
Story
Ted was an average ranger until his parents were infected by the plague. Bringing them to a nearby temple, he was shocked when the priests claimed to be unable to heal their disease. Without care, his beloved parents died horribly from the terrible plague. Consumed with grief, Ted fled into the wilderness. As he stumbled blindly through the wastelands, he began to hear voices, promising him vengeance in exchange for his servitude. Ted agreed readily, and soon had sold his soul to the Abyss, becoming Turbatus Periclitor. In exchange, he gained the ability to control the Festering Anger that was consuming him. After a period of time wandering the wilds, he returned and slaughtered the priests that had refused to aid him, and now wanders the lands, spreading destruction.
Ted was an average ranger until his parents were infected by the plague. Bringing them to a nearby temple, he was shocked when the priests claimed to be unable to heal their disease. Without care, his beloved parents died horribly from the terrible plague. Consumed with grief, Ted fled into the wilderness. As he stumbled blindly through the wastelands, he began to hear voices, promising him vengeance in exchange for his servitude. Ted agreed readily, and soon had sold his soul to the Abyss, becoming Turbatus Periclitor. In exchange, he gained the ability to control the Festering Anger that was consuming him. After a period of time wandering the wilds, he returned and slaughtered the priests that had refused to aid him, and now wanders the lands, spreading destruction.
Updated ridiculous Festering Anger build to not use incarnum, now is definitely a non-caster.
this build is not allowed under the no pun-pun rules
Um, the noncaster successes is currently 1 (Bela) ... as my character ran his encounters incorrectly per the stupid CustServ ruling (a melee touch attack is not an attack) -- Although I will be abiding by that ruling, I think this is another case of CustServ not having a clue. I mean come on ... how is a Melee Touch Attack not an Attack -- it has the word ATTACK on the end of it.
Now, if they ruled that Punishing Stance only affected Melee Attacks, and since Fire Riposte is a melee TOUCH attack it is not capable of stacking -- then fine. But ... that isn't what they did.
Probably because of stuff like:
To begin a grapple, make a melee touch attack.
Obviously you mentioned that the fire riposte deals damage, so you think it should add punishing stance damage. My guess is they didn't see it that way, and instead differentiated a melee touch attack from an attack.
Show
The wartrained riding dog is wearing the masterworked studded leather barding.
I cast Longstrider on my dog.
Feed dog potion of mage armor.
Drink potion of mage armor.
Read scroll of Greater Magic Fang (all my natural attacks are +1) (85%, success)
Read Scroll of luminious armor (+4 AC, light, enemies have -4 to hit me, stacks with light sensitivity). (95%, success)
Drink potion of favorable sacrifice.
Pour potion of venomfire into saucer.
Wildshape into fleshraker
Drink potion of venomfire
The wartrained riding dog is wearing the masterworked studded leather barding.
I cast Longstrider on my dog.
Feed dog potion of mage armor.
Drink potion of mage armor.
Read scroll of Greater Magic Fang (all my natural attacks are +1) (85%, success)
Read Scroll of luminious armor (+4 AC, light, enemies have -4 to hit me, stacks with light sensitivity). (95%, success)
Drink potion of favorable sacrifice.
Pour potion of venomfire into saucer.
Wildshape into fleshraker
Drink potion of venomfire
Probably because of stuff like:
To begin a grapple, make a melee touch attack.
Obviously you mentioned that the fire riposte deals damage, so you think it should add punishing stance damage. My guess is they didn't see it that way, and instead differentiated a melee touch attack from an attack.
The problem with a guess like that, is that if a Gish uses wraith strike with punishing strike, then they lose the extra 1d6 damage ... which I still think is silly.
And no, I do not see punishing strike affecting the start of a grapple anymore than I see a rogue sneak attacking at the start of the grapple.
Me too
Pre-Encounter 1:Show
The wartrained warbeast riding dog is wearing the masterworked studded leather barding.
Attune myself to wand of wraith strike (use one charge).
I cast Longstrider on my dog.
Tap the dog with wand of barkskin.
Tap self with wand of barkskin.
Feed dog potion of mage armor.
Drink potion of mage armor.
Read scroll of Greater Magic Fang (all my natural attacks are +1)
Read Scroll of greater luminious armor (+8 AC, light, enemies have -4 to hit me, stacks with light sensitivity).
Drink potion of favorable sacrifice.
Pour potion of venomfire into saucer.
Wildshape into fleshraker
Drink potion of venomfire
Put on wand sheathes (springloaded to snap and attach when hit). These contain the wands of Wraith Strike and Cure light wounds.
Any ideas how I could optimize Gurth to survive better? He does not depend on consumables but really the only thing I can think of is to add that dependency and rework him so that he has access to Favorable Sacrifice through UMD. Other ideas without moving to the addicted and unsustainable world of consumables?
Spoiler
Randomed this earlier - figuring out wether or not Gurth's Zombies are the target of the attack.
First door: White (45% - Attacks Minion) - Victory
Second Door: Green (100% - Attacks Gurth) - Victory
Thrid Door: Blue (100% - Attacks Minion) - Victory
Fourth Door: Red (170% - Attacks Gurth) - Death
Final Boss: Attack Gurth - Even if survived - Death
Spells: 7+detect undead/4+desecrate
Randomed this earlier - figuring out wether or not Gurth's Zombies are the target of the attack.
First door: White (45% - Attacks Minion) - Victory
Second Door: Green (100% - Attacks Gurth) - Victory
Thrid Door: Blue (100% - Attacks Minion) - Victory
Fourth Door: Red (170% - Attacks Gurth) - Death
Final Boss: Attack Gurth - Even if survived - Death
Spells: 7+detect undead/4+desecrate
White Door
Round 1 (55% chance that Chraal attacks a minion so he attacks the 'point' man to pick him off)
Chraal> Double moves 20 ft + 20 ft (40 ft)
Gurth> Cannot see what is going on yet, moves to sight range of Chraal (20ft forward). Requires a double move so he cannot command his 'Guard' that walks beside him to attack. Gurth has the "Ring of the Darkhidden" and since it is pitch black out he is unlikely to be noticed.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> This was the one on point, it is only 20 ft from Chraal. Moves half his move to close the 20 ft distance that separates him from Chraal. There is actually 5 ft of separation so really just 15 ft of movement.
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> This is the one that walks beside Gurth, moves 20ft forward staying next to Gurth
Round 2
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So a claw and bit hit for 13+12.5=25.5 damage [claw=55, claw=110, bite=155]
Gurth> Mentally commands 'Strong' Ogre Zombie that is walking stride with Gurth to attack Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hits for (21-5) = 16 damage [club=60]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Movies 20ft, now 20ft from Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 53.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 69 hit points left
Round 3
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=210, claw=265, bite=310]
Gurth> Casts spectral hand
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Misses [club=120]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Movies 20ft, right next to Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 40.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 69 hit points left
Round 4
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=210, claw=265, bite=310]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5*2 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hits for (21-5) = 16 damage [club=180]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Hits for (22-5)=17 damage. [club=60]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 30 hit points left
Chraal Status> 36 hit points left
Round 5
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=520, claw=575, bite=620]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Miss [club=240]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Miss. [club=120]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 34.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 36 hit points left
Round 6
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 25.5 damage [claw=675, claw=730, bite=775]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hit for 16 damage after DR 5/- [club=300]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Hits for 17 damage after DR 5/-. [club=180]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 34.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 0 hit points left
Round 7
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. At zero hit points so swings with claw, misses, and begins to bleed [claw=830]
win…
Gurth heals up party using inflicts.
Round 1 (55% chance that Chraal attacks a minion so he attacks the 'point' man to pick him off)
Chraal> Double moves 20 ft + 20 ft (40 ft)
Gurth> Cannot see what is going on yet, moves to sight range of Chraal (20ft forward). Requires a double move so he cannot command his 'Guard' that walks beside him to attack. Gurth has the "Ring of the Darkhidden" and since it is pitch black out he is unlikely to be noticed.
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> This was the one on point, it is only 20 ft from Chraal. Moves half his move to close the 20 ft distance that separates him from Chraal. There is actually 5 ft of separation so really just 15 ft of movement.
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> This is the one that walks beside Gurth, moves 20ft forward staying next to Gurth
Round 2
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So a claw and bit hit for 13+12.5=25.5 damage [claw=55, claw=110, bite=155]
Gurth> Mentally commands 'Strong' Ogre Zombie that is walking stride with Gurth to attack Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hits for (21-5) = 16 damage [club=60]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Movies 20ft, now 20ft from Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 53.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 69 hit points left
Round 3
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=210, claw=265, bite=310]
Gurth> Casts spectral hand
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Misses [club=120]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Movies 20ft, right next to Chraal
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 40.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 69 hit points left
Round 4
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=210, claw=265, bite=310]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5*2 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hits for (21-5) = 16 damage [club=180]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Hits for (22-5)=17 damage. [club=60]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 30 hit points left
Chraal Status> 36 hit points left
Round 5
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 13 damage [claw=520, claw=575, bite=620]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Miss [club=240]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Miss. [club=120]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 34.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 36 hit points left
Round 6
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. So, only a claw hit this round, 25.5 damage [claw=675, claw=730, bite=775]
Gurth> Casts inflict moderate wounds and touches Zombie getting hit (4.5 + 4) + 2 (Charnel Touch) = 15
'Weak' Ogre Zombie> Swings on Chraal. 60% chance to hit. Hit for 16 damage after DR 5/- [club=300]
'Strong' Ogre Zombie> Swings with 60% chance to hit. Hits for 17 damage after DR 5/-. [club=180]
'Weak' Ogre Zombie Status> 34.5 hit points left
Chraal Status> 0 hit points left
Round 7
Chraal> 55% chance to hit with claw and 45% chance to hit with bite. At zero hit points so swings with claw, misses, and begins to bleed [claw=830]
win…
Gurth heals up party using inflicts.
Regardless of the spell put in it a wand is always a standard action to activate unless it takes longer than 1 standard action to cast or is custom made.
This was discussed earlier in this thread. The Rules Compendium specifically states the opposite, and it over-rules core material.
Regardless of the spell put in it a wand is always a standard action to activate unless it takes longer than 1 standard action to cast or is custom made.
From the SRD:Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)
So it's a standard action or longer if the spell takes longer. No mention of a shorter time is mentioned which if it were viable would have been stated since feather fall is a free action and is core (thus it would have been pointed out as an example).
The latest rule for this is on page 85 of the Rules Compendium and it says
Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores, but activating the item doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity
The Rules Compendium is now the primary source on rules, so it overrides the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.
The latest rule for this is on page 85 of the Rules Compendium and it says
The Rules Compendium is now the primary source on rules, so it overrides the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.
Ahh ok, I haven't picked up the rules compendium yet. thanks for the correction.
The problem with a guess like that, is that if a Gish uses wraith strike with punishing strike, then they lose the extra 1d6 damage ... which I still think is silly.
And no, I do not see punishing strike affecting the start of a grapple anymore than I see a rogue sneak attacking at the start of the grapple.
I know that's what you think. You've said so many times.
I think it's silly to add a dividing line of 'deals damage normally' to decide which melee touch attacks get the +1d6 damage, and which ones do not.
That is to say, you've mentioned previously that there is a division:
1. Melee touch attack that deals damage also gets to add punishing stance.
2. Melee touch attack that does not deal damage does not get to add punishing stance.
I'm only guessing that WotC couldn't find the text that differentiates one melee touch attack from another melee touch attack along the lines of 'deals damage or not' anywhere in the books.
The latest rule for this is on page 85 of the Rules Compendium and it says
The Rules Compendium is now the primary source on rules, so it overrides the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.
But, does pulling it out, like retrieving a potion, still takes the move action?
(Or occur during a move action if BAB = +1 or higher.)
But, does pulling it out, like retrieving a potion, still takes the move action?
(Or occur during a move action if BAB = +1 or higher.)
Hence the wand sheathes ... or is that not how they work?
Hence the wand sheathes ... or is that not how they work?
I'm not trying to call out any particular character. If a character has some means to draw a potion or wand as a free action, then use it as a swift action, that's great. I'm just verifying that they didn't change the drawing forth bit for swift action items.
I'm not trying to call out any particular character. If a character has some means to draw a potion or wand as a free action, then use it as a swift action, that's great. I'm just verifying that they didn't change the drawing forth bit for swift action items.
You misunderstand ... My question is whether or not the wrist sheathes work the way I thought they worked.
My understanding is that they take up a bracer slot, and hold a wand. They work as if you held the wand in your hand ... this is identical to the wand placement in weapons/shield ...where you do not have to withdraw the wand to use it ... i.e. it is strapped in place and you do not lose use of the claw or the wand.
However, this is not central to my character, so if this is not how that works, I can switch things around pretty easily.
edit: Found the listing for Wand Bracer, it takes a swift action to retrieve ... so I made the needed changes.
I walk around with a wand in my claw, activate the wand (swift) and then drop it (free) prior to full attacking.
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1/ Warblade 2 / Cancer Mage 1
Where can I find this "Cancer Mage". The "Mage" portion of the title makes me suspect that it was designed for casters, and I'd like to see it, so I can ascertain how it's benefits work and if it can be used to do any more crazy things.
edit: Found the listing for Wand Bracer, it takes a swift action to retrieve ... so I made the needed changes.
I walk around with a wand in my claw, activate the wand (swift) and then drop it (free) prior to full attacking.
Meyer's, may I suggest Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape, pg 34? They're cheaper, and superior in almost every way.
Where can I find this "Cancer Mage". The "Mage" portion of the title makes me suspect that it was designed for casters, and I'd like to see it, so I can ascertain how it's benefits work and if it can be used to do any more crazy things.
Meyer's, may I suggest Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape, pg 34? They're cheaper, and superior in almost every way.
cancer mage is bovd, doesnt require or progress casting, its just misnamed.
Its mainly taken to get the first level ability for infinite loops, it gives immunity to the ill effects of diseases, without removing any bonuses they may give. So take every disease that gives a bonus, there are apparently diseases that give +str/day, so after a bit you end up with a strength only pun-pun
cancer mage is bovd, doesnt require or progress casting, its just misnamed.
Its mainly taken to get the first level ability for infinite loops, it gives immunity to the ill effects of diseases, without removing any bonuses they may give. So take every disease that gives a bonus, there are apparently diseases that give +str/day, so after a bit you end up with a strength only pun-pun
there are also other ways to expand the infinite loop, I saw some thread about geting epic leadership and might makes right that lets you use your Str modifier instead of your Cha modifier in order to get followers
And I made a build about getting infinite spell slots, here's the link.
I walk around with a wand of wraith strike in my claw. Once I activate it, I drop it as a free action.
As per page 85 of the Rules Compendium wands require a word to be spoken to use. Fleshrakers cannot speak, therefor you cannot use the wand in your wildshaped form.
LoR
This thread is sooo long. Did we ever get a ruling from CustServ on whether immunity to poison thwarts the acid damage from Venomfire (or some other resolution)?
LoR
They said the acid still works against poison immune creatures.
It is not automatically considered "magical" though. So against an incorporeal creature, it would do nothing, unless the attack bearing it had at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
You misunderstand ... My question is whether or not the wrist sheathes work the way I thought they worked.
My understanding is that they take up a bracer slot, and hold a wand. They work as if you held the wand in your hand ... this is identical to the wand placement in weapons/shield ...where you do not have to withdraw the wand to use it ... i.e. it is strapped in place and you do not lose use of the claw or the wand.
However, this is not central to my character, so if this is not how that works, I can switch things around pretty easily.
edit: Found the listing for Wand Bracer, it takes a swift action to retrieve ... so I made the needed changes.
I walk around with a wand in my claw, activate the wand (swift) and then drop it (free) prior to full attacking.
I think the Wand Bracelet listed in the MiC is like 12k gp cost?
They said the acid still works against poison immune creatures.
It is not automatically considered "magical" though. So against an incorporeal creature, it would do nothing, unless the attack bearing it had at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Is this published somewhere or is this just an e-mail response whoever wrote to CustServ received?
LoR
As per page 85 of the Rules Compendium wands require a word to be spoken to use. Fleshrakers cannot speak, therefor you cannot use the wand in your wildshaped form.
UMD: Use Blindly ... this interaction with Magic Item Attunement means that I do not need to make the check -- it just works.
Activate Blindly:
Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
The way I read this, as long as I make some noise ... I can activate it blindly.
This thread is sooo long. Did we ever get a ruling from CustServ on whether immunity to poison thwarts the acid damage from Venomfire (or some other resolution)?
LoR
First post ... FAQ has links to all CustServ emails posted.
Inspiration: Fullmetal Alchemist)
Let me know when you are ready for me to post a link from the first page.
Meyer's, may I suggest Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape, pg 34? They're cheaper, and superior in almost every way.
How would this work when I am in fleshraker form? For my normal form (full plate mail), the greatsword has that in it ... but as fleshraker ...
UMD: Use Blindly ... this interaction with Magic Item Attunement means that I do not need to make the check -- it just works.
Activate Blindly:Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
The way I read this, as long as I make some noise ... I can activate it blindly.
I will point you to the text that says "You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate." Making noise is not equivalent to speaking a command word.
Equivalent
Adjective
equivalent (comparative more equivalent, superlative most equivalent)
Positive
equivalent
Comparative
more equivalent
Superlative
most equivalent
1. similar or identical in value, meaning or effect; virtually equal
2. (mathematics) of two sets, having a one-to-one relationship
3. (mathematics) relating to the corresponding elements of an equivalence relation
4. (chemistry) having the equal ability to combine
5. (cartography) of a map, equal-area
I will point you to the text that says "You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate." Making noise is not equivalent to speaking a command word.
I believe this was brought up before and ruled that magical items could be made to activate off of specific sounds thus allowing druid companions and familiars, once trained, to activate some items.
I believe this was brought up before and ruled that magical items could be made to activate off of specific sounds thus allowing druid companions and familiars, once trained, to activate some items.
I believe won't cut it with RAW followers. Could you sight a source? I mean by your ruling a Druid in a Wildshape should be able to activate a scroll even if that druid doesn't have natural spell.
I believe this was brought up before and ruled that magical items could be made to activate off of specific sounds thus allowing druid companions and familiars, once trained, to activate some items.
Animal cannot use verbal command activated items. - Approved by CustServ
^^
I will point you to the text that says "You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate." Making noise is not equivalent to speaking a command word.
So ... UMD will not solve this issue for me then? Blah ... ok ... let me redo things slightly.
I had thought that the text that said "even if you are not" meant that I didn't have to use a command word ... and the equivalent activity meant (standard) and that waving, etc could be used instead of the command word.
Ah well ...
My new build ... it's called 'me too'
Me tooShow
Human, 25 point buy -- I think this is correct
Str: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (13+4th level)
Char: 12
AC: 29 when buffed (effectively 33)
Hps: 36
Level: Ranger 5, Wildshape variant.
Feats:
Improved Init (H)
Magic Item Attunement (1)
Power Attack (F)
Combat Reflexes (F)
Draconic Aura (Vigor) (3)
Flaws:
MurlyEyed
Shaky
Skills:
AutoHypnotism 4
Animal Handling 8
Spot 8
Listen 8
Jump 8
Open Locks 4
Search 8
UMD 4
Equipment: (8770 1/3 gp)
Potion of Venomfire
3 Scroll of Greater Magic Fang,CL1
3 Scroll of Greater Luminous Armor, CL 1
Wand of Barkskin (10 charges) CL1
Composite Longbow (str+1)
Greatsword +1 (Wand Chamber)
MW Full Plate
Wand Sheaths (Hinged/Spring Closing)
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (30 charges)
Wand of Mage Slayer Wraithstrike (50 charges)
Masterwork Lockpicks
5 Potions of Mage Armor
Wand of Alterself (10 charges), CL1
Potion of Favorable Sacrifice (1000gp, CL1)
2 Saucers
MW Studded Leather barding for riding dog animal companion (Self Crafted)
Chain Shirt (self crafted)
Tactics:
Read scrolls, drink potion. Use barkskin wand on self + fluffy (Riding Dog animal companion)
While in Fleshraker form, don wrist wand sheathes (specially made to snap closed upon being hit (think mousetrap) (wraith strike + cure light wounds).
Saucers are for potions that need to be drank in fleshraker form (venomfire)
Fluffy: (War Trained Warbeast Riding Dog)
Hp: 29 (3d8+12)
Init +2
AC 19 (21 barding) (23 barkskin)
BAB/Grapple +2/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+6)
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Special: Trip, Low Light Vision, Scent
Speed: 50
Skills: Jump +16, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +3, Survival +1
Equipment:
MW Leather Barding (accounted for in ranger's equipment)
Training: Fluffy has been trained to lead. It retreats when it sees a monster/trap and just holds its action for the rest of the encounter.
If I drop a wand, it picks it up (fetch).
If I am grappled, then it rushes in to attack the thing that grapples me.
Your Caster Levels are a bit wonky on your items. This will increase their prices a lot and makes the build suspect from another angle, given the rule limitations.
Greater Magic Fang is a 3rd level Ranger Spell. It cannot be CL1, you have to be an 11th level Ranger to cast it. (CL5, I think)
Barkskin and Luminous armor are 2nd level Spells. They cannot be CL1, you have to be an 8th level Ranger to cast either one. (CL4)
Alterself is also a second level spell and not on the Ranger list, for your purposes you're presumably using the Wizard version and UMDing it which means at least CL3.
Read the Magic Emporium sblock ... the crafter of the magic items has the mage slayer tree ... their caster level is 1 ... which is the highest they can craft it as.
Greater Magic Fang is a 3rd level spell (legal for this adventure), normal caster level is 5 (mage slayer reduces this to CL1).
If the character is question had to be able to cast the spells from items, then no noncaster would be able to use potions/etc ... so that is a non-issue.
This draws a question about the "No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast." rule. If these are ranger items, they are too high a level, no ranger of 5th level can use them. If they're druid items, you need to be UMDing them. If you're saying you can use items of a higher level so long as any character could possibly use them, this opens up casters doing the same. For instance 7th level wizards can use wands of (wizard) disintegrate because Duskblades have it as a 4th level spell.
In DnD there are no "Druid usable" scrolls vs "Ranger usable" scrolls. When you use it, if the spell is on your spell list, it works (possibly needing a caster level check, depending). So no, I would not need to UMD a scroll of a spell that a ranger has on its spell list.
The comment of duskblades/disintegrate ... can a duskblade level 7 cast disintegrate? If not, then it is not legal per the rule you quoted. However, if a duskblade COULD do it, then it would be legal. Just be careful how intricate you get in finding a build to cast a spell earlier, as this way leads to the "No early entry cheese" part of the rule. (i.e. no taking a cleric, sanctum spell/etc, and swapping out this spell for a domain spell and saying "see, my level 3 cleric can cast miracle")
In your encounter with the wraith, you seem to be using Wraithstrike to ignore it's incorporeal miss chance. Wraithstrike does not do this. I could just be confused about your math, though. Are you adding in a 50% miss chance to your attacks there?
In my encounter with the wraith, I have two magic weapons (claws), each having a 50% miss chance. One hits, one misses. I am not sure how clearly I spelled that out though ...
Gluttony Level 5
CR5 Monster Challenges
Notes
Healthful rest is running which doubles the rate of his natural healing. One casting lasts 24 hours.
4+D/3+D
Typical memorized spells when adventuring
1st:
Domain: Goodberry - some healing
Healthful Rest - To double natural healing - fast healing 1 becomes fast healing 2
Blood Wind - To hit things at a range
Shield of Faith
Cure Light Wounds
2nd:
Domain: Death Knell
Restoration Lesser
Cure Moderate Wounds
Resist Energy
Healthful rest is running which doubles the rate of his natural healing. One casting lasts 24 hours.
4+D/3+D
Typical memorized spells when adventuring
1st:
Domain: Goodberry - some healing
Healthful Rest - To double natural healing - fast healing 1 becomes fast healing 2
Blood Wind - To hit things at a range
Shield of Faith
Cure Light Wounds
2nd:
Domain: Death Knell
Restoration Lesser
Cure Moderate Wounds
Resist Energy
Let me know when you are ready for me to post a link from the first page.
Please post the link. Was faster making the build this time and running through the encounters. I'm thinking any future character I make will be run through these little 'mini-adventures' to tweak and tune the character a little, weeding out the woefully unprepared. Helpful excercise.
Gluttony - Level 5 (actually level 4 because he is Feral)
Combat for CR5 Monsters (manticore, huge rug, giant constrictor snake, and young black dragon) are linked to in the combats section.
I say we vote against that: Standard Caster level for all items.
I vote yes for normal CL's.
vs Dragon
No trying to be sneaky, though the pair could probably get supprise.
Init +7 v +0 285/250 Druid wins
Pouncy pounces.
Claw +13 v 19 ac 75/50 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 65/50 pass)
Claw +13 v 19 ac 150/150 hit 10 phys 17 acid, poison (Dc 17 v +9 fort, 130/150, 3 dex damage)
Bite +9 v 17 ac 215/250 miss
Rake +9 v 17 ac 280/250 6 phys
Tail +9 v 17 ac 345/350 miss
Trip +6 v + 6 (15 str + 4 for 4 legs) 50/50 tripped.
Grapple +13 v 12 dragon is grappled and is now pinned and helpless beneath Pouncy.
How is the black dragon taking acid damage?
I don't know where this theme of everyone buying items from people with the Mage Slayer Tree so they are way cheaper came up. People thought it was "over the top" for me to find a simple 7th level incantatrix, but everyone who wants to can find an 11th level ranger with the mage slayer feat tree, sanctum spell, and spell-touched evocations or something of the like?
It is not "everyone" who is using this ... I tossed up a skeletal build 24 pages back, we emailed cust serv about this and they did not veto (or even answer) the question about minimizing caster levels for item creation feats.
Argaud added the mage slayer stuff to his new PAO build, but that was more for over-the-topness than for actual play.
The incantrix issue was with hiring an NPC to use class abilities. I am playing for an item to be crafted. And no, it does not require a ranger 11/etc ... it takes a druid with mage slayer and item creation feats ...
I say we vote against that: Standard Caster level for all items.
I vote yes for normal CL's.
I am not willing to put this up for discussion at present ... I posted my build 24 pages ago ... and posted that these were possible issues with the build. We emailed CustServ about this very issue ... and they did not answer.
Why is it now that you have objection to it? What changed since 24 pages ago?
Read the Magic Emporium sblock ... the crafter of the magic items has the mage slayer tree ... their caster level is 1 ... which is the highest they can craft it as.
Greater Magic Fang is a 3rd level spell (legal for this adventure), normal caster level is 5 (mage slayer reduces this to CL1).
If the character is question had to be able to cast the spells from items, then no noncaster would be able to use potions/etc ... so that is a non-issue.
Craft Wand requires CL5. Your bizarre mage slayer crafter can't take the feat to craft wands if you're reducing his CL. Unless of course he's 9th level but. . . no. Higher level than your character no matter how you roll it. Similarly in order to use Brew Potion (CL3 Prereq) to make a Favorable Sacrifice with reduced CL requires a 7th level character.
In DnD there are no "Druid usable" scrolls vs "Ranger usable" scrolls. When you use it, if the spell is on your spell list, it works (possibly needing a caster level check, depending). So no, I would not need to UMD a scroll of a spell that a ranger has on its spell list.
I find this a bit debatable given that they have different prices and different base caster levels depending on the class, but if that's your ruling I'm good with it.
The comment of duskblades/disintegrate ... can a duskblade level 7 cast disintegrate? If not, then it is not legal per the rule you quoted. However, if a duskblade COULD do it, then it would be legal. Just be careful how intricate you get in finding a build to cast a spell earlier, as this way leads to the "No early entry cheese" part of the rule. (i.e. no taking a cleric, sanctum spell/etc, and swapping out this spell for a domain spell and saying "see, my level 3 cleric can cast miracle")
Your character is using items crafted by a higher level character than himself. Why not anybody else?
In my encounter with the wraith, I have two magic weapons (claws), each having a 50% miss chance. One hits, one misses. I am not sure how clearly I spelled that out though ...
What's suspicious is the way you're stacking rolls. On an attack roll that misses due to AC, you also have it miss due to incorporeal miss chance. On the claws that would hit it's AC, you also make the incorporeal miss chance. The rolls are not shown and not clear. How are you stacking them? EDIT: Also note that Luminous Armor provides no protection vs. Incorporeal touch attacks, the spell lacks the force description compared to mage armor and specifically states that it protects like a breastplate. A breastplate doesn't stop incorporeal touches.
On the flipside, a Fleshraker has bite and tail attacks (secondary, -5 to hit, both 1d6, all get poison) that you weren't using and that will likely up your odds of success quite a bit.
I am not willing to put this up for discussion at present ... I posted my build 24 pages ago ... and posted that these were possible issues with the build. We emailed CustServ about this very issue ... and they did not answer.
Why is it now that you have objection to it? What changed since 24 pages ago?
We voted on no purchasing spells from casters because the assumption was that the caster wouldn`t always be on hand, or easily found, and it is far more reasonable not to. I agree with this. It is also far more reasonable to assume that items are crafted by a standard character - you complained that I used an incantatrix with specific feat set up, well, you're using a crafter with specific feat set up - how is that any different?
Why is it now that you have objection to it? What changed since 24 pages ago?
I'm sure the main thing that changed since 24 pages ago is that people have time to analyse the build. I mean I've waited about a week and a half with a valid build for the manticore challenge abd I'm still listed as an incomplete. The only criticism of my build so far has been if I fight the manticore with its +2 to initiative against my +12 and I lose and I die. which is a pretty slim chance of failure especially when you consider how many melee builds can be taken out with just one lucky critical hit.
I'm sure the main thing that changed since 24 pages ago is that people have time to analyse the build. I mean I've waited about a week and a half with a valid build for the manticore challenge abd I'm still listed as an incomplete. The only criticism of my build so far has been if I fight the manticore with its +2 to initiative against my +12 and I lose and I die. which is a pretty slim chance of failure especially when you consider how many melee builds can be taken out with just one lucky critical hit.
Which build? Spook the Sorcerer? I know that I have tossed out comments on it at least twice. It had issues (abrupt jaunting while flatfooted). Have they been corrected? If the link from the first post points to your current character, please add a link to the most up-to-date fight.
Craft Wand requires CL5. Your bizarre mage slayer crafter can't take the feat to craft wands if you're reducing his CL. Unless of course he's 9th level but. . . no. Higher level than your character no matter how you roll it. Similarly in order to use Brew Potion (CL3 Prereq) to make a Favorable Sacrifice with reduced CL requires a 7th level character.
Ah ... very good points -- I forgot about those things ... I need to change things on the character then for legality.
Your character is using items crafted by a higher level character than himself. Why not anybody else?
The difference is that my character is using spells which are available to characters of that level (3rd level spells at 5th level) -- which is legal.
Your question was about using a spell that is either a 5th level spell (at 7th level, illegal) or a 4th level spell (for an 11th level character) -- both of which do not work at 7th level.
What's suspicious is the way you're stacking rolls. On an attack roll that misses due to AC, you also have it miss due to incorporeal miss chance. On the claws that would hit it's AC, you also make the incorporeal miss chance. The rolls are not shown and not clear. How are you stacking them?
The threshold that was agreed to is 50%. I originally ran it so that I ignored the miss chance until after I hit, but then people complained that was not exactly legal, instead, I needed to roll the miss change ... AH ... I see the problem, I should not be accumulating the 50% incorporal chance on a miss. Thanks.
There are no rolls involved, you calculate the percent for success and once you pass a certain threshold, you succeed.
EDIT: Also note that Luminous Armor provides no protection vs. Incorporeal touch attacks, the spell lacks the force description compared to mage armor and specifically states that it protects like a breastplate. A breastplate doesn't stop incorporeal touches.
Luminous armor does protect as it imposes a -4 attack penalty on the attacker.
On the flipside, a Fleshraker has bite and tail attacks (secondary, -5 to hit, both 1d6, all get poison) that you weren't using and that will likely up your odds of success quite a bit.
I am redoing the mini-adventure as there were issues with the wand of wraithstrike ...
I don't know where this theme of everyone buying items from people with the Mage Slayer Tree so they are way cheaper came up. People thought it was "over the top" for me to find a simple 7th level incantatrix, but everyone who wants to can find an 11th level ranger with the mage slayer feat tree, sanctum spell, and spell-touched evocations or something of the like?
I say we vote against that: Standard Caster level for all items.
I vote yes for normal CL's.
I agree with him. If we're using standard CL for our levels, then no funky stuff to lower costs.
Edit: Forgot to quote
next turn I summon a bat swarm, then move again and concentrate until the manticore runs off or dies. It has a fly speed faster then the bats and could run away if it chose. to kill him it takes 13 turns
It takes a full round to cast summon swarm so the manticore probably heads over that way - given that swarms head to the closest living thing, would you stop casting the swarm?
next challenge there is no way we could notice a rug on the floor. It looks normal in its setting. it attacks me 830% I am hit and it grapples me 835%I lose and it deals 14 points of damage. I can then use abrupt jaunt to get out of there and then use summon swarm to finish him off. I'm still invisable at this point and doesnt know where I teleported from.
Summon swarm won't work...it won't bleed right? It is a construct and is immune to crits. Also, casting a summon swarm takes a full round so your casting probably gets interupted by another hit from the rug. At least your concentration would get interupted at some point...
Now I should have had fore-warning of the dragon. He’s the big black thing on top of the pile of gold.
Bad assumption. Dragons are supposed to be cunning and smart. It is more likely you fall into a trap of his rather than him just sitting there for you...
Heres a reposting of my adventure and the I then make it to the cave entrance and cast summon monster 1 to get a fiendish hawk, cast chain of eyes on it and then tell it to fly in the cave and see what’s in there. 4 rounds should be more then enough to get a general idea of what I'm facing. otherwise I can try redoing my spells so I can extend it for 9 rounds of scouting. If I need to I can spend a few (no more then 2) days researching the cave before heading in. then we cast extended invisibility, remove scent, false life, bears endurance and go in.
the hawk spots the snake (181%). The hawk flies past the snake and provoks of opportunity. I'm assumeing 10 ft ceiling. it attacks the hawk (221% hit) and deals 14.5 points of damage. hawk dies. I go there and I cast summon swarm and kill it. takes 14 rounds
Constrictor snakes live in temperate forests. They actually live in trees. A forest is too large that it is very unlikely the summon hawk last long enough. Spook isn't traveling very far if this is how he travels and he would be spending quite a few spells so he would have a number spent for each encounter.
Note that it is also getting bonuses to hide due to the distance...
Ah ... very good points -- I forgot about those things ... I need to change things on the character then for legality.
The difference is that my character is using spells which are available to characters of that level (3rd level spells at 5th level) -- which is legal.
Your question was about using a spell that is either a 5th level spell (at 7th level, illegal) or a 4th level spell (for an 11th level character) -- both of which do not work at 7th level.
Cool. Then your crafter is a 9th level caster who has mage slayer. Mine's a Voidmind Human with practiced spellcaster, improved energy drain, and Spell Drain. At fifth level he was theoretically cast every single spell in the game. He just made me a CL 1 Time Stop scroll. Looks like the restriction on which spell can be cast was just lifted. We're good all the way up to epic spells. Everything's game again.
More seriously, custom items is a real quagmire. I don't think you really want to go there. There's a reason one of the ten commandments of optimization is an injunction against them.
Luminous armor does protect as it imposes a -4 attack penalty on the attacker.
I am redoing the mini-adventure as there were issues with the wand of wraithstrike ...
Take a closer look at your numbers. Your flatfooted Touch AC to the Wraith was 14. . . how? Luminous Armor does not apply, it applies a penalty to the Wraith's attack, not a bonus to AC. Then once you're no longer flatfooted, your armor goes up. . . 5? A Fleshraker has a dex mod of +4. And since the Wraith's attack is only +5 instead of +7 you're apparently applying a penalty there as well to double-dip somehow. I believe your Flatfooted should be 10, your normal touch 14, and the Wraith has +3 to hit.
Cool. Then your crafter is a 9th level caster who has mage slayer. Mine's a Voidmind Human with practiced spellcaster, improved energy drain, and Spell Drain. At fifth level he was theoretically cast every single spell in the game. He just made me a CL 1 Time Stop scroll. Looks like the restriction on which spell can be cast was just lifted. We're good all the way up to epic spells. Everything's game again.
Time Stop would be an early entry cheese issue, which is against the rules (per consensus).
People have already pointed out some issues with the character -- however, this being Christmas time -- I haven't been able to finish/post the updates yet ...
I just modified the rules on the first page to close this Mage Slayer loophole ...
Take a closer look at your numbers. Your flatfooted Touch AC to the Wraith was 14. . . how? Luminous Armor does not apply, it applies a penalty to the Wraith's attack, not a bonus to AC. Then once you're no longer flatfooted, your armor goes up. . . 5? A Fleshraker has a dex mod of +4. And since the Wraith's attack is only +5 instead of +7 you're apparently applying a penalty there as well to double-dip somehow. I believe your Flatfooted should be 10, your normal touch 14, and the Wraith has +3 to hit.
There should be something in the pre-encounter sblock, that I drink a potion of mage armor (flatfooted incorporal touch ac of 14) ... I understand that this does not stack with the luminous armor, but it is a cheap way of helping versus incorporal attacks.
I might have some of the fleshraker stats wrong -- as I do not have the book -- so am trying to piece meal it from bits-and-pieces I find of it on the net -- like here
It takes a full round to cast summon swarm so the manticore probably heads over that way - given that swarms head to the closest living thing, would you stop casting the swarm?
Nope I wouldn't. If the manticore starts following the sound of my voice rather then using scent to to try and pick up my trail again then I can abrupt jaunt away with out losing the spell I am casting. I just make sure that I move to a place where the manticore is closer to the swarm then I am. As the manticore only has an Int of 7 and a wis of 12 it seems more likley to me that he would continue with the same means of tracking me for at least one more round before heading to where he thought my voice was coming from and since it doesnt change the out come I'll leave the encounter as is.
Summon swarm won't work...it won't bleed right? It is a construct and is immune to crits. Also, casting a summon swarm takes a full round so your casting probably gets interupted by another hit from the rug. At least your concentration would get interupted at some point...
summon swarm so works. the only things summon swarm wont work on are things with fast healing, regeneration and DR. the fact that it doesn't bleed just means I do 3.5 points of damage on average and not 4.5 with the bats. the whole critical hit thing becomes even less relavent when we consider that the swarm doesn't even roll to hit.
As far as the concentration thing goes I can ether take a five foot step back to get out of its threatened range if its considered long or I can abrupt jaunt away again and then cast the spell.
not that that should matter anyways since I am invisable (50% miss chance) and he has -5 to his listen check just to even locate my square if thats even possible within the rules. If someone can post the DC for a listen check for finding the square an invisable person is in that would be great.
Bad assumption. Dragons are supposed to be cunning and smart. It is more likely you fall into a trap of his rather than him just sitting there for you...
I dont know how you judge what animals are supposed to be cunning and smart but this black dragon has an INT of 10 and a WIS of 11. seems pretty average to me. besides which he doesn't know I'm coming. If you like to post some tactics for the dragon who with only average intelligence and wisdom set up some crafty traps for any adventures who travelled through manticore infested lands not to mention the giant snake, wraith and animated rug that guards his place then please do.
Constrictor snakes live in temperate forests. They actually live in trees. A forest is too large that it is very unlikely the summon hawk last long enough. Spook isn't traveling very far if this is how he travels and he would be spending quite a few spells so he would have a number spent for each encounter.
Not this snake. this snake lives in a cold damp cave as per what the person who wrote the adventure posted. this means no negatives for distance and no trees in the cave. Also an interesting little rule loop hole I discovered a while ago.
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).
the bolded words and lack of the same phrase in the hide section seems to indicate that the use of the spot skill never has any negative modifiers due to distance aside from ad hoc ones the DM decides to use. just an interesting piece of the rules I've found.
anyone else have any issues with my attempts or can we add another one to the caster wins section?
the bolded words and lack of the same phrase in the hide section seems to indicate that the use of the spot skill never has any negative modifiers due to distance aside from ad hoc ones the DM decides to use. just an interesting piece of the rules I've found.
Condition (from Rules Compendium pg 114 for spot)
per 10 feet of distance check penalty -1
spotter distracted -5
Not this snake. this snake lives in a cold damp cave as per what the person who wrote the adventure posted.
where is the original adventure? all I see is a list of monsters for the CR5 fights. It makes no sense to place this cold blooded creature in cool damp cave.
Nope I wouldn't. If the manticore starts following the sound of my voice rather then using scent to to try and pick up my trail again then I can abrupt jaunt away with out losing the spell I am casting.
once you are done casting you become visible with the swarm attack. it is possible that the manticore would move forward (getting out of the swarm) and spike you. No? Manticore is going to make the distraction save. It makes sense that it would try to get out of the swarm. you would be vissible so it makes sense that it would fling 6 spike your way and try to get the heck out of dodge. it will be bleeding, but I think spook isn't going to be having a good day here either.
Condition
per 10 feet of distance check penalty -1
spotter distracted -5
oddly enough due to the way the text is worded these modifiers only apply to Spot checks the are called to determine the distance at which an encounter begins and nothing else.
once you are done casting you become visible with the swarm attack.
Invisability only ends prematurely when you attack. an attack as defined by the spell can ether be a spell that targets a foe or a spell whoes area of effect includes an enemy. As summon swarm lacks a target or area of effect description it lacks both of these it can not end my invisability. there is also a section about how one can attack indirectly with out ending the invisability. I can't think of why this wouldnt qualify as indirectly.
As I am assuming the second questions was predicated on the validity of the first statement I will ignore it for now.
where is the original adventure? all I see is a list of monsters for the CR5 fights. It makes no sense to place this cold blooded creature in cool damp cave.
it can be found here. the other creatures added where the 3-5 level updates
Anything else? anybody?
oddly enough due to the way the text is worded these modifiers only apply to Spot checks the are called to determine the distance at which an encounter begins and nothing else.
Quoting more from rules compendium to give full context:
Everytime a creature has a chance to see something, that creature can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something one failed ot see previously is a move action. A spot check is either made against a DC that reflects how hard something is to see, or it is opposed by another creatures Hide check. A creature must have line of sight to make a Spot check.
SPOT
Condition Check Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance -1
Spotter distracted -5
This is not talking just about encounter distance. This is about spot in general...
Invisability only ends prematurely when you attack. an attack as defined by the spell can ether be a spell that targets a foe or a spell whoes area of effect includes an enemy. As summon swarm lacks a target or area of effect description it lacks both of these it can not end my invisability. there is also a section about how one can attack indirectly with out ending the invisability. I can't think of why this wouldnt qualify as indirectly.
Spook is concentrating on the swarm (at least linked to his concentration)...thereby Spook is attacking the manticore with the swarm, whose area is by proxy the swarm's space. This seems very direct to me. It would be odd for this to not be considered an attack to me.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).
Spot Check Penalties Condition Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance -1
Spotter distracted -5
when I copy and paste from the SRD the table for spot checks its appears I have it up there. right after the only paragraph that mentions requiring a penalty that applies fir distance. It is also the same way in my PHB.
Everytime a creature has a chance to see something, that creature can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something one failed ot see previously is a move action. A spot check is either made against a DC that reflects how hard something is to see, or it is opposed by another creatures Hide check. A creature must have line of sight to make a Spot check.
SPOT
Condition Check Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance -1
Spotter distracted -5
No where in the bolded paragraph does it mention needing to use a panalty base on distance as it does in the description for how to determine encounter distance. there fore the table only applies to the text that indicates what it applies to.
Spook is concentrating on the swarm (at least linked to his concetration)...thereby Spook is attacking the manticore with the swarm. This seems very direct to me.
Spook is not telling the swarm to attack ether mentally or verbally (he has no control over it) nor is he weilding the swarm of bats in hand to beat the manticore with it. this means he is not directly attacking.
No where in the bolded paragraph does it mention needing to use a panalty base on distance as it does in the description for how to determine encounter distance. there fore the table only applies to the text that indicates what it applies to.
It is followed by a table describing the conditions that detail the modifiers. I realize you want spot unmodified at infinite distance but that appears contrary to the same section we are both refering to, except you eliminate the table and only talk about the bolded text that comes just before the table.
Spook is not telling the swarm to attack ether mentally or verbally (he has no control over it) nor is he weilding the swarm of bats in hand to beat the manticore with it. this means he is not directly attacking.
Ok - I agree the tactic works according to rules.
It is followed by a table describing the conditions that details the modifiers. I realize you want spot unmodified at infinite distance but that appears contrary to the same section we are both refering to, except you eliminate the table and only talk about the bolded text that comes just before the table.
when using the spot check to counter act the hide skill there are no negative modifiers. As the only text, which descibes requiring a penalty due to the circumstances listed in the below table, is the text that describes the starting distance of an ancounter use of the spot check, yjat the the only use of the spot skill that the table below applies to.
If the creators of DnD had wanted all of the uses of spot skill to have the spot penalties applied to it then they would have ether added to the end of each paragraph the words "A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant)." or had that section in its own paragraph and not attached to the paragraph describing how to determine the encounter starting distance.
The bolded text clearly describes how the table is supposed to be used. outside of the context of the text I speak of the table has no meaning what so ever and could be speaking of the survival skill or a damn good jello recepe written phoenetically but spoken in an alien language.
A creature must have line of sight to make a Spot check.
So it seems the table applies to whenever a creature has line of sight to make a spot check, following your logic?
Do we need a sage ruling here?
The consumable burn is more expensive, but he's earning more too, and he got through all the L5-6 challenges plus both kobold adventures with little difficulty. There is a small chance in some encounters that he'd get taken out with one bad save, but he's changed tactics some to minimize that risk. One of his key new tactics backfired in the L7 kobold adventure, but he toughed it out and won anyway. Ghoul Glyph is a lot of the reason he advanced hexblade for mettle. Bela remembered his level 5 disaster!
Final Bela, Level 7 Human Elite Array (statbump strength)
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 wis10 Cha 8
normal AC25 hp 58 saves F10 R4 W3 +1 vs spell/spell-like , mettle
rage AC22 hp 79 saves F13 R4 W6 AC drops by 3
After short duration combat buffs: +5 spot, range mod -1 (not -2), range increment 150%
AC33 (35 vs evil), hp72 saves +2fort save, +2 evil, +4 vs fear, +5 poison
L1 Barbarian1 - extra rage, reckless rage, Lion totem Substitution
L1 Fighter1 - power attack
L2 Fighter2 - combat expertise, brutal throw
L4 Hexblade1 - Hexblade curse DC12
L5 Ranger1 - Tracking, Spiritual Connection substitution, favored enemy elementals
spiritual conection lets him speak with animals or plants 3/day caster level 1
L6 Hexblade2 - Arcane resistance (+1 vs spell/spell-like). Feat Delay Potion (CM)
L7 Hexblade3 - mettle
Survival 10 (10 ranks, 2 ranks crossclass)
Ride 13 (10 ranks, synergy)
Kn Arcane 3 (1 rank)
Spellcraft 3 (1 rank)
Handle Animal 7 (8 ranks)
Climb 5 (7 ranks, includes ACP-5)
Swim 10 (7 ranks, includes ACP +0 in fullplate with least crystal of aquatic action)
Jump 0 (6 ranks, includes ACP-5, speed -4)
950 MW Blue Ice Greatsword (FB) with wand chamber (DS)
300 Least crystal of Return (2h Sword) (MIC)
110 Cold Iron Longspear with wand chamber (DS)
120 Cold Iron Lance with wand chamber (DS)
300 Least crystal of Return (lance or longspear) (MIC)
188 Silver Flail with wand chamber (DS)
300 Least crystal of return (flail) (MIC)
15 Trident
12 6 cold iron javelins
3150 fullplate+1, Restful Enhancement (DS)
250 least crystal aquatic action fullplate (MIC)
50 armor spikes
1280 tower shield+1 with wand chamber (DS)
1400 anklet of translocation (MIC)
400 heavy warhorse
100 studded leather barding for warhorse
34 34 saddle, saddlebags, bit, bridle
8 Cold Weather Clothing
4 Backpack, 4d food, waterskin, bedroll, winter blanket
4.5 hammer, 10 pitons, 100' hemp rope, grapple hook
5 flint steel, crowbar, shovel
6 6sunrods
40.5 2 alch fire and 5 flask oil
125 5 flask holy water
60 6 flask acid
100 2xtanglefoot bag
50 antitoxin
63 3smokestick and 3 tindertwigs
100 oil bless weapon
50 potion reduce person
50 potion shield of faith
50 potion mage armor
150 3xpotion of remove fear
300 6 potions faith healing (SC)
300 6xoil of magic stone.
300 6xpotion enlarge person
700 potion of fly
1200 wand Haste, Swift 10cg in wand chamber greatsword
750 wand clw 50cg in wand chamber tower shield
150 wand magic weapon 10cg in wand chamber lance or longspear
150 wand blades of fire in wand chamber flail
900 wand alter self 10cg
900 wand bull strength 10cg
900 wand bear endurance 10cg
900 wand resist energy 10cg
450 wand prot evil CL3 10 cg
150 wand entangle 10cg
150 wand unseen servant 10cg
150 wand mount 10cg
150 wand hawkeye 10cg (SC) (150% more range all wpns)
150 wand raptor's sight 10cg (SC) (range mods -1 not -2)
150 wand longstrider 10cg
150 wand low light vision 10cg (SC)
150 wand summon nature ally I 10cg
75 wand detect magic 10cg
19000
CR5 Original Challenge 1996gp
Show
Manticore
Manticore
Show
No buffs for overland travel, arriving in daytime
Manticore gets surprise at 180', since Bela
is very noisy (-13 move silent vs listen 5)
and manticore is +2 vs listen 0, at 180', Bela needs
a "20" to hear manticore at all. Bela 5% surprised.
Initial salvo at Bela vs 6x+8 vs AC24 150% 2 hits for 13
Initiative, Manticore +2 vs +1 wins 55%
next salvo at Bela vs 6x+8 vs AC24 300% 1 hits for 6
Bela uses speak with animals, and tells horse to go full defense
manticore 57 Bela 41 Horse 30
Third salvo at Bela. Bela takes cover from horse (95%) and
all 6 shots miss (330%)
Bela draws wand of prot evil, casts on his horse
Frustrated, Manticore shoots at horse
6x+8 vs AC23 510% 2 hits for 13
Bela puts away wand of prot evil, heals horse for 5
bela draws lance as free action (lesser xtal return)
Manticore 57, Bela 41 horse 21
Manticore does diving attack vs horse.
Bela gets AOO +9 vs AC15 hit (70%) for 7
Manticore +12 vs AC23 hit for 565% 20
Bela tells horse to full attack and then back up
Horse full attacks +6/6 vs AC15 hit once 120% for 9
bite +1 vs AC15 hit 155% for 3 then 5' step back
Bela hexblade curses manticore +3 vs 12 pass (60%)
Bela drop lance, draws tanglefoot bag, throws 9 vs AC9, hit 165%)
manticore save +7 vs DC15 125% fail, stuck
manticore 57s5 Bela 41 horse 1
manticore 36 Bela 41 horse 1
manticore claws the TFB goo free, so it can move at half (full atk)
Bela tells horse to go full defense again
Bela slings shield, picks up lance, grip 2h, power attack for 5
manticore moves forward, taking AOO (+7 vs AC13 240% miss)
manticore attacks +8 vs AC23 595% miss
Bela tells horse to back up 5' and stay full defense
bela swings, power attack 5, +7 vs 13 315% hit for 19 +2 vs 13 365% hit for 18, kill manticore
4 chg clw on self, 6 charge on horse (horse ends at 29hp)
resources: 11 cg clw, 1 cg prot evil, TF bag = 225gp also hexblade curse and speak with animals
No buffs for overland travel, arriving in daytime
Manticore gets surprise at 180', since Bela
is very noisy (-13 move silent vs listen 5)
and manticore is +2 vs listen 0, at 180', Bela needs
a "20" to hear manticore at all. Bela 5% surprised.
Initial salvo at Bela vs 6x+8 vs AC24 150% 2 hits for 13
Initiative, Manticore +2 vs +1 wins 55%
next salvo at Bela vs 6x+8 vs AC24 300% 1 hits for 6
Bela uses speak with animals, and tells horse to go full defense
manticore 57 Bela 41 Horse 30
Third salvo at Bela. Bela takes cover from horse (95%) and
all 6 shots miss (330%)
Bela draws wand of prot evil, casts on his horse
Frustrated, Manticore shoots at horse
6x+8 vs AC23 510% 2 hits for 13
Bela puts away wand of prot evil, heals horse for 5
bela draws lance as free action (lesser xtal return)
Manticore 57, Bela 41 horse 21
Manticore does diving attack vs horse.
Bela gets AOO +9 vs AC15 hit (70%) for 7
Manticore +12 vs AC23 hit for 565% 20
Bela tells horse to full attack and then back up
Horse full attacks +6/6 vs AC15 hit once 120% for 9
bite +1 vs AC15 hit 155% for 3 then 5' step back
Bela hexblade curses manticore +3 vs 12 pass (60%)
Bela drop lance, draws tanglefoot bag, throws 9 vs AC9, hit 165%)
manticore save +7 vs DC15 125% fail, stuck
manticore 57s5 Bela 41 horse 1
manticore 36 Bela 41 horse 1
manticore claws the TFB goo free, so it can move at half (full atk)
Bela tells horse to go full defense again
Bela slings shield, picks up lance, grip 2h, power attack for 5
manticore moves forward, taking AOO (+7 vs AC13 240% miss)
manticore attacks +8 vs AC23 595% miss
Bela tells horse to back up 5' and stay full defense
bela swings, power attack 5, +7 vs 13 315% hit for 19 +2 vs 13 365% hit for 18, kill manticore
4 chg clw on self, 6 charge on horse (horse ends at 29hp)
resources: 11 cg clw, 1 cg prot evil, TF bag = 225gp also hexblade curse and speak with animals
CR6 Extraplanar challenge 3053.3gp
Show
Randomly determine doors: green door, blue door, red door, white door
Green door
Randomly determine doors: green door, blue door, red door, white door
Green door
Show
Before entering any doors do long duration, repeatable buffs
15 longstrider (1 hour)
15 lowlight vision (1 hour)
15 raptor's sight (1 hour)
90 alter self (troglodyte) 30 minutes
100 2 magic stone potions (30 minutes, 6 stones)
15 Hawkeye (10 minutes)
50 potion of enlarge person (Delay Potion 3 hours)
Neither horse nor Bela can make spot check to see trolls
Trolls throw javelins, one at horse, one at Bela, to test AC
+6 vs AC15 hit horse 60% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 saves 50%
+6 vs AC31 miss 5%
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 24p
Init +7 vs +1 both win init 80%/160%
T1 charges horse +8 vs 15 miss 140%
T2 charges horse +8 vs 15 hit 85% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 fails 100% -3 con
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 17pp(con-3)
Bela withdraws horse 120', draw wand entangle on the move
trolls pursue 60'
Bela slings shield and drops entangle on both trolls, trolls in center
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 70%
T2 save +4 vs 11 fail 140%
T1 moves forward 30'
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 105% fail
Bela draws lance as free action, activates magic weapon on lance, rages
dismounts in front of horse, 5' forward cast magic weapon
Bela is now barely in 20' reach from troll, sets power attacks for 7
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 210%
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC16 65% hit for 35 damage
T1 attacks +6 vs 21 hit 170% for 5 dmg
Bela save +15 vs 17 95% pass
T1 fast heals 5
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 125% fail
Bela moves back 10', troll AOO 200% miss
Bela attack +8 vs AC18 miss 110%
T1 17 T2 47 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC18 hit for 36 165% killed
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 145% fail
Bela holds lance in one hand, moves up and tosses 1 stone +15 vs AC16 hit 260% for 13
T2 38 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 160% succeed, move 15' t2 heals 5 points
Bela tosses 2 rocks,+15/11 vs ac16 425 hit 1 for 14, then grips lance as free action 2h
T2 relflex save +4 vs 11 pass 280%
T2 29 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 moves up to Bela, takes AOO +15 vs 18 415 hit for 21
T2 heal for 5
Bela 5' step, power 7, attack +8 vs 18 hit for 570 for 35, killing T2
Bela drinks antitoxin, cast prot evil+bear end on horse, and then attempts heal checks on horse
Bela save +17 vs 17 pass 190%
heal check +0 vs 17 fail twice 40%
horse save +9 vs 17 pass 165%
horse save +9 vs 17 fail 230%, horse loses 4 more con (7 total lost)
horse max hp is now 18
Bela heals self (1cg) horse (3cg), new oil magic stone, cast bull str/bear end/prot evil
drink and delay enlarge person and add bear end on horse (hp=24)
total consumables 880gp
Before entering any doors do long duration, repeatable buffs
15 longstrider (1 hour)
15 lowlight vision (1 hour)
15 raptor's sight (1 hour)
90 alter self (troglodyte) 30 minutes
100 2 magic stone potions (30 minutes, 6 stones)
15 Hawkeye (10 minutes)
50 potion of enlarge person (Delay Potion 3 hours)
Neither horse nor Bela can make spot check to see trolls
Trolls throw javelins, one at horse, one at Bela, to test AC
+6 vs AC15 hit horse 60% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 saves 50%
+6 vs AC31 miss 5%
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 24p
Init +7 vs +1 both win init 80%/160%
T1 charges horse +8 vs 15 miss 140%
T2 charges horse +8 vs 15 hit 85% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 fails 100% -3 con
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 17pp(con-3)
Bela withdraws horse 120', draw wand entangle on the move
trolls pursue 60'
Bela slings shield and drops entangle on both trolls, trolls in center
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 70%
T2 save +4 vs 11 fail 140%
T1 moves forward 30'
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 105% fail
Bela draws lance as free action, activates magic weapon on lance, rages
dismounts in front of horse, 5' forward cast magic weapon
Bela is now barely in 20' reach from troll, sets power attacks for 7
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 210%
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC16 65% hit for 35 damage
T1 attacks +6 vs 21 hit 170% for 5 dmg
Bela save +15 vs 17 95% pass
T1 fast heals 5
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 125% fail
Bela moves back 10', troll AOO 200% miss
Bela attack +8 vs AC18 miss 110%
T1 17 T2 47 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC18 hit for 36 165% killed
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 145% fail
Bela holds lance in one hand, moves up and tosses 1 stone +15 vs AC16 hit 260% for 13
T2 38 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 160% succeed, move 15' t2 heals 5 points
Bela tosses 2 rocks,+15/11 vs ac16 425 hit 1 for 14, then grips lance as free action 2h
T2 relflex save +4 vs 11 pass 280%
T2 29 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 moves up to Bela, takes AOO +15 vs 18 415 hit for 21
T2 heal for 5
Bela 5' step, power 7, attack +8 vs 18 hit for 570 for 35, killing T2
Bela drinks antitoxin, cast prot evil+bear end on horse, and then attempts heal checks on horse
Bela save +17 vs 17 pass 190%
heal check +0 vs 17 fail twice 40%
horse save +9 vs 17 pass 165%
horse save +9 vs 17 fail 230%, horse loses 4 more con (7 total lost)
horse max hp is now 18
Bela heals self (1cg) horse (3cg), new oil magic stone, cast bull str/bear end/prot evil
drink and delay enlarge person and add bear end on horse (hp=24)
total consumables 880gp
once you are done casting you become visible with the swarm attack.
No attack roll so it is not an attack. That is by the defintion the back of the Player's Handbook.
@ solbergb,
I noticed something odd
100 2 magic stone potions (30 minutes, 6 stones)
Did you perhaps means oil. Also where actally is that item found?
1. You did acid damage to a black dragon
2. You used wands in a form that can neither cast spells nor use tools
3. You have a templated animal companion, this is not allowed. You even called the other druid on it.
4. You are using scrolls and potions of higher level than you can normally cast (without even making a caster level check at that). I'm guessing thats because with CL1 you will fail that check.
And finally,
You are still a weaker copy of the druid. Unless you are going to argue that your dog is in some way comparable to Pouncy.
Remind me again in what way a ranger who is casting spells and using scrolls is a non-caster again? Is it the full bab?
EDIT: Also you still have not changed the status of the summoner druid on the first page.
Meyer there are some serious issues with your ranger.
1. You did acid damage to a black dragon
Correct, I noticed that as well when I pointed out that your fleshraker did the same thing ... however, since I pointed out that I was redoing the mini-adventure, as there were issues ... ah well. By the way, please correct your fleshraker fight versus the dragon ... so that the build does not need to be moved from success to "imcomplete/illegal" status -- as your last fight versus the dragon you deal acid damage (like my previous post pointed out)
2. You used wands in a form that can neither cast spells nor use tools
This was pointed out to me ... I posted my reasoning for that (UMD Activating blindly) ... and was informed that I was not using UMD correctly.
3. You have a templated animal companion, this is not allowed. You even called the other druid on it.
Correct. If you read what I posted, you would see that the warbeast template is one that CAN be added to a domestic animal (like a dog) via training ... As I do not start with a templated animal companion, I see no issue with that. The other druid was wanting a wild animal (dinosaur) to have the template applied, which for wild animals is one that has to be applied before the druid calls it (applied while being reared).
4. You are using scrolls and potions of higher level than you can normally cast (without even making a caster level check at that). I'm guessing thats because with CL1 you will fail that check.
The scrolls/etc were of a higher level than I could cast -- true ... but NOT one that a single-classed normal character could cast (level 3 spells at character level 5). This is legit, else no noncaster could use a magic item.
Since my CL is 2, and the items CL is usually 1, I auto-succeed -- etc ... however, since I posted that this is being redone, I do not see the issue.
You are still a weaker copy of the druid. Unless you are going to argue that your dog is in some way comparable to Pouncy.
Remind me again in what way a ranger who is casting spells and using scrolls is a non-caster again? Is it the full bab?
No, the reason why he is a non-caster, is because of the rules in post 1 ... where I spell out what is meant by a caster. I have explicitly said that classes like ranger/palading are not casters since this thread was started.
Once I post a valid set of tactics/etc with a character that passes consensus, then we will be able to talk relative power of the character.
Now that I posted a new set of tactics/etc ...
My build has a dog as an animal companion, which has tons of advantages in urban settings ... versus the fleshraker which was advantages in combat. Unsure which is better overall, definitely the fleshraker is more powerful.
I end all fights alone ... in the first round where I meet them, your build requires help from the animal companion.
I hit more often, and deal more damage per hit ... at this level.
My team moves +10' faster than your team (much faster in combat).
It looks like a tie.
EDIT: Also you still have not changed the status of the summoner druid on the first page.
Correct. The summoner that is linked to from the first page does not have the smoking bottle you have, nor does it use the tactics you mention. As such, the character you posted can not compete as you have said it does. Additionally, I know that you and I disagree on the encounter starting distance, which is the difference between a win and a loss. If you would show me the post which has your most up-to-date version of this character, we can re-examine it (or someone else (Otto, if willing) can if you do not agree with me on starting distance, etc).
1) No lowered CL items.
2) Showing my chance of using the scrolls
3) No Acid damage to the dragon.
4) No UMD'ing activating blindly as a Fleshraker.
5) No accumulating 50% hit chance vs wraith on a miss.
I think thats all the changes.
Defeating pure melee the following general techniques have been used:
- Favorable Sacrifice [spell]
- Changing form: PAO (though banned now) [spell], Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor) [spell] and Wild Shape [class ability]
- Minions: Animal Companion [class ability], Animate Dead [spell], Fell Animate [spellcaster feat], etc
- Controlling: Charm [spell], Command Undead [spell]
- Paralyzing: Shivering Touch [spell], Poison from Animal Companion [class ability], Poison from Wildshaped form [class ability]
- Stealth: Moving Silently and Hiding [skills], Invisibility [spell], Remove Scent [spell]
- Summon: Summon Swarm [spell]
- Persistance: Persist various spells using Divine Metamagic [feat for spellcaster + spells]. Examples: Ice Axe, vigor
- Extra Attacks: race choices like feral, domain choices like Hunger [spellcaster domain], form changes as called out in 'Changing Form', haste [spell]
- Hit things and heal afterwards: Faith Healing [spell], Cure X Wounds [spell], Fast Healing [vigor=spell, race (feral)]
- Consumables: Wands, Scrolls, Potions to emulate one or more of the above [$$$ and class/UMD=skill]
Identify Traps:
- Creature taking point: companion [class], summon x [spell]
- Search [skill and class]
- Activate trap but survive
- Consumables: Wands, Scrolls, Potions to emulate one or more of the above [$$$ and class/UMD=skill]
Defeating grapples the following teleportation tricks seem to be driving success:
- Anklet of Translocation [$$$ magic item]
- Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) [alternate class ability]
- Close Quarters Fighting [melee feat]
Defeating spells the following techniques seem to be driving success:
- High saves through various spells
- High saves from form
- Evasion [class ability]
- Protections: Protection From Elements [spell], Resist Energy [spell], Favorable Sacrifice [spell]
- Consumables: Wands, Scrolls, Potions to emulate one or more of the above [$$$ and class/UMD=skill]
General recurring choices for the basic character that support the character:
- Race
- Templates
- Flaws for more feats
- Traits for more hit points
Draw whatever conclusions that might be desired from this. Does this sound about right? Things I should add?
Currious if anyone has similar thoughts. There seem to be some general techniques here that characters employ one or more of to obtain victory:
Defeating pure melee the following general techniques have been used:
- Favorable Sacrifice [spell]
- Changing form: PAO (though banned now) [spell], Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor) [spell] and Wild Shape [class ability]
- Minions: Animal Companion [class ability], Rebuke [class ability], Animate Dead [spell], Fell Animate [spellcaster feat], etc
- Controlling: Charm [spell], Command Undead [spell]
- Paralyzing: Shivering Touch [spell], Poison from Animal Companion [class ability]
- Stealth: Moving Silently and Hiding [skills], Invisibility [spell], Remove Scent [spell]
- Summon: Summon Swarm [spell], Summon Undead X [spell]
How about pure normal melee? Like my first character?
Change rebuke to control ... (however, this was not used)
Add: Paralyzing, Poison from Wildshaped form.
What is the purpose of listing each of the summon spells?
Defeating grapples the following teleportation tricks seem to be driving success:
- Otherworldly [feat]
- Anklet of Translocation [magic item]
- Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) [alternate class ability]
How is otherworldly defeating grapples?
What about my feat (Close Quarters Fighting)
Draw whatever conclusions that might be desired from this. Does this sound about right? Things I should add?
How about some things about melee? Like hitting things?
How about pure normal melee? Like my first character?
Change rebuke to control ... (however, this was not used)
Add: Paralyzing, Poison from Wildshaped form.
What is the purpose of listing each of the summon spells?
How is otherworldly defeating grapples?
What about my feat (Close Quarters Fighting)
How about some things about melee? Like hitting things?
Did various updates. Better? Missing something else? Errors?
I ran out of the text limit on the above post, so here's more:
CR6 Extraplanar challenge 3053.3gp
[sblock]
Randomly determine doors: green door, blue door, red door, white door
Green doorShow
Before entering any doors do long duration, repeatable buffs
15 longstrider (1 hour)
15 lowlight vision (1 hour)
15 raptor's sight (1 hour)
90 alter self (troglodyte) 30 minutes
100 2 magic stone potions (30 minutes, 6 stones)
15 Hawkeye (10 minutes)
50 potion of enlarge person (Delay Potion 3 hours)
Neither horse nor Bela can make spot check to see trolls
Trolls throw javelins, one at horse, one at Bela, to test AC
+6 vs AC15 hit horse 60% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 saves 50%
+6 vs AC31 miss 5%
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 24p
Init +7 vs +1 both win init 80%/160%
T1 charges horse +8 vs 15 miss 140%
T2 charges horse +8 vs 15 hit 85% for 6
horse fort save +6 vs dc17 fails 100% -3 con
T1 47 T2 47 Bela 58 horse 17pp(con-3)
Bela withdraws horse 120', draw wand entangle on the move
trolls pursue 60'
Bela slings shield and drops entangle on both trolls, trolls in center
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 70%
T2 save +4 vs 11 fail 140%
T1 moves forward 30'
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 105% fail
Bela draws lance as free action, activates magic weapon on lance, rages
dismounts in front of horse, 5' forward cast magic weapon
Bela is now barely in 20' reach from troll, sets power attacks for 7
T1 save +4 vs 11 pass 210%
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC16 65% hit for 35 damage
T1 attacks +6 vs 21 hit 170% for 5 dmg
Bela save +15 vs 17 95% pass
T1 fast heals 5
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 125% fail
Bela moves back 10', troll AOO 200% miss
Bela attack +8 vs AC18 miss 110%
T1 17 T2 47 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T1 moves forward, takes AOO +8 vs AC18 hit for 36 165% killed
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 145% fail
Bela holds lance in one hand, moves up and tosses 1 stone +15 vs AC16 hit 260% for 13
T2 38 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 tries to break out +3 vs DC20 160% succeed, move 15' t2 heals 5 points
Bela tosses 2 rocks,+15/11 vs ac16 425 hit 1 for 14, then grips lance as free action 2h
T2 relflex save +4 vs 11 pass 280%
T2 29 Bela 88p horse 17pp(con-3)
T2 moves up to Bela, takes AOO +15 vs 18 415 hit for 21
T2 heal for 5
Bela 5' step, power 7, attack +8 vs 18 hit for 570 for 35, killing T2
Bela drinks antitoxin, cast prot evil+bear end on horse, and then attempts heal checks on horse
Bela save +17 vs 17 pass 190%
heal check +0 vs 17 fail twice 40%
horse save +9 vs 17 pass 165%
horse save +9 vs 17 fail 230%, horse loses 4 more con (7 total lost)
horse max hp is now 18
Bela heals self (1cg) horse (3cg), new oil magic stone, cast bull str/bear end/prot evil
drink and delay enlarge person and add bear end on horse (hp=24)
total consumables 880gp
Currious if anyone has similar thoughts. There seem to be some general techniques here that characters employ one or more of to obtain victory:
Defeating pure melee the following general techniques have been used:
Defeating grapples the following teleportation tricks seem to be driving success:
- Anklet of Translocation [magic item]
- Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) [alternate class ability]
- Close Quarters Fighting [melee feat]
[/LIST]
My Character, Mr. Burns used a flaming aura to deal with melee(mantle of flame) and blink shirt to take care of grapples. I haven't ran against any of the spell casters or traps yet.
Correct. If you read what I posted, you would see that the warbeast template is one that CAN be added to a domestic animal (like a dog) via training ... As I do not start with a templated animal companion, I see no issue with that. The other druid was wanting a wild animal (dinosaur) to have the template applied, which for wild animals is one that has to be applied before the druid calls it (applied while being reared).
The text on Warbeast says it "Can be applied to any animal, beast, or vermin." [Magical] beast? Seems logical but that's not what it says.
The sample Warbeast they provide is a rhinoceros. A similarly "wild" animal. I cannot understand your reasoning here at all as to why you're allowed to have it and the druid isn't just because yours is a dog. The druid was unable to find an egg somewhere? If you're purely going by fluff I'd point out that Warbeasts are also, by fluff, specifically trained as aggressive dangerous mounts and you're neither riding yours, nor is it aggressive since you've tried to train it to run away from any possible threat.
I'd suggest that anybody can apply warbeast if they wish to any companion/mount/purchased animal/familiar (Okay, familiar might be pushing it), to which it can legally be applied, but regardless of how they get the creature they must pay the warbeast cost (50GP HD for 3HD or less, 100+75 per HD for 4HD or more) out of their starting resources. Or alternately show that their character did indeed make the threshold for the dice rolls to train it themselves.
The text on Warbeast says it "Can be applied to any animal, beast, or vermin." [Magical] beast? Seems logical but that's not what it says.
Well lets see Warbeast is a Template from 3.0 when Beast was the Creature type of Dinosaurs. Most of them got directly converted to Animals so the Beast type no longer exists. Not sure if this conversion was ever noted in any books or on the site anywhere but that is what I have noticed between the books.
The sample Warbeast they provide is a rhinoceros. A similarly "wild" animal. I cannot understand your reasoning here at all as to why you're allowed to have it and the druid isn't just because yours is a dog. The druid was unable to find an egg somewhere? If you're purely going by fluff I'd point out that Warbeasts are also, by fluff, specifically trained as aggressive dangerous mounts and you're neither riding yours, nor is it aggressive since you've tried to train it to run away from any possible threat.
To reiterate ... an animal companion that you call via the druid/ranger ritual ... is a standard one for its type (riding dog for instance). It is not an egg, etc.
So -- I call the standard, normal riding dog ... and train it to add the template. As the template says that any domestic animal (riding dog for instance) just needs training (as opposed to being reared/trained) it is legit for my riding dog. It is not legit for a fleshraker, which is not a domestic animal.
And ... a riding dog IS a valid mount for small creatures ...
Now, if warbeast is not valid for 3.5, then I need to remove the template ... but I think it had been allowed for other characters ...
Anyway, I had two questions in regard to legal character submissions.
First, can a character use Vow of Poverty?
Secondly, can a wizard still have a spellbook with Vow of Poverty?
Sorry to diverge slightly off-topic from where ever the discussion is at now but I was thinking of putting together a character and thought I would try to clarify before I get a bit fat illegal stuck to my forehead.
I'm on page 68 so I am currently playing catchup, which I seem to always be doing.
Anyway, I had two questions in regard to legal character submissions.
First, can a character use Vow of Poverty?
Secondly, can a wizard still have a spellbook with Vow of Poverty?
Sorry to diverge slightly off-topic from where ever the discussion is at now but I was thinking of putting together a character and thought I would try to clarify before I get a bit fat illegal stuck to my forehead.
VoP is valid for this thread -- as it is from BoED -- however, just make sure your character is good ...
Also -- no, a wizard cannot have a spellbook -- as it is not what is listed as allowable. (sorry)
@Meyer_William, your arguement isn't bad but you really need to learn what domestic means.
Secondly, can a wizard still have a spellbook with Vow of Poverty?
Easy solution (and I did this one, roleplaying, for the amusement value). Create a magical writing spell (or use chalk) and copy all your spells onto your clothes, and your skin. I even carved the most important spells into my chest, so I'd always be able to prepare a few powerful spells.
It was a sacrifice to god. I was one of those freaky, masochist, god wants us to hurt our-selves. But he was very good and very lawful. Only hurted himself.
Correct, I noticed that as well when I pointed out that your fleshraker did the same thing ... however, since I pointed out that I was redoing the mini-adventure, as there were issues ... ah well. By the way, please correct your fleshraker fight versus the dragon ... so that the build does not need to be moved from success to "imcomplete/illegal" status -- as your last fight versus the dragon you deal acid damage (like my previous post pointed out)
Correct. If you read what I posted, you would see that the warbeast template is one that CAN be added to a domestic animal (like a dog) via training ... As I do not start with a templated animal companion, I see no issue with that. The other druid was wanting a wild animal (dinosaur) to have the template applied, which for wild animals is one that has to be applied before the druid calls it (applied while being reared).
Then I will update my druid since he called a baby Fleshraker and reared it himself applying the warbeast template. You really don't want to go there. It explicitly states that you cannot have a templated animal companion. Not that you can apply a template to an animal companion after you call it, not that you can apply a template to an animal before you call it.
The scrolls/etc were of a higher level than I could cast -- true ... but NOT one that a single-classed normal character could cast (level 3 spells at character level 5). This is legit, else no noncaster could use a magic item.
Since my CL is 2, and the items CL is usually 1, I auto-succeed -- etc ... however, since I posted that this is being redone, I do not see the issue.
First the items CL is not 1. We agreed there would be no mageslayer stupidness.
Second, a single class ranger can cast first level spells. To use anything other than that certainly violates the spirit of limiting casting.
No, the reason why he is a non-caster, is because of the rules in post 1 ... where I spell out what is meant by a caster. I have explicitly said that classes like ranger/palading are not casters since this thread was started.
Once I post a valid set of tactics/etc with a character that passes consensus, then we will be able to talk relative power of the character.
I'm well aware of what you posted. I think claiming to be a non-caster while you read multiple scrolls, use wands etc is a little fishy.
Now that I posted a new set of tactics/etc ...
My build has a dog as an animal companion, which has tons of advantages in urban settings ... versus the fleshraker which was advantages in combat. Unsure which is better overall, definitely the fleshraker is more powerful.
I end all fights alone ... in the first round where I meet them, your build requires help from the animal companion.
I hit more often, and deal more damage per hit ... at this level.
My team moves +10' faster than your team (much faster in combat).
It looks like a tie.
Your dog is used to trip ambushes and nothing more.
The fleshraker would be able to finish the CR5 challenge without help from the druid if not for the aura that the wraith has.
You do not end the wraith fight on the first round. The others you do. The druid also ends all fights but the wraith and the dragon on the first round. The dragon ends up pinned before he can move so I consider that to be over also.
You do not deal more damage per hit. The druid has higher strength and is larger than you are. Pouncy deals about 50% more damage than you and you r companion combined.
You hit more often while using an illegal wraith strike wand. Without that I'm curious to see how you think you will hit any more often.
Correct. The summoner that is linked to from the first page does not have the smoking bottle you have, nor does it use the tactics you mention. As such, the character you posted can not compete as you have said it does. Additionally, I know that you and I disagree on the encounter starting distance, which is the difference between a win and a loss. If you would show me the post which has your most up-to-date version of this character, we can re-examine it (or someone else (Otto, if willing) can if you do not agree with me on starting distance, etc).
I posted a v2.0 over a week ago. I can go back and find it and link it if you want.
EDIT: Also you are not allowed to attack the same enemy with both claw and tail in the same round. You do this every combat. Also the rug crushes fluffy. Also the way I read it you get ONE trip and grapple attempt per charge if you hit with one of your attacks. Not a free trip and grapple with each hit. If you disagree feel free to let me know and I will update the numbers.
Unless the template has been reprinted it is still valid as written. It can't be added to and Animal companion as the Animals are wild when summoned. It can be added to a domestic Fleshraker as they are even mentioned to be used as mounts in the fluff that comes with the creature. Any animal can be reared and raised as a domestic animal, which means even a trained T Rex or Megaraptor raised from birth could be subject to the War Beast template unless there is a size requirement I don't know about.
@Meyer_William, your arguement isn't bad but you really need to learn what domestic means.
Fleshrakers are wild animals ... they are dinosaurs. By no stretch of the imagination is it domestic. Now, I agree that dinosaurs can be given the template -- however, they need to be trained for this from birth (i.e. rearing).
A RIDING DOG on the other hand, is as follows
This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards.
Collies, Huskies, and St. Bernards are domestic animals in real life and in DnD.
Easy solution (and I did this one, roleplaying, for the amusement value). Create a magical writing spell (or use chalk) and copy all your spells onto your clothes, and your skin. I even carved the most important spells into my chest, so I'd always be able to prepare a few powerful spells.
CArc actually has rules for this - under the optional stuff for spellbooks. You can hold so many spell levels on your back, so many on your arms, so many on your palms, etc. It's pretty cool, but you don't get many spells.
Defeating grapples the following teleportation tricks seem to be driving success:
- Anklet of Translocation [$$$ magic item]
- Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) [alternate class ability]
- Close Quarters Fighting [melee feat]
Don't forget my personal favorite.
Wrestle the rug into submission and claw it to shreds.
Fleshrakers are wild animals ... they are dinosaurs. By no stretch of the imagination is it domestic. Now, I agree that dinosaurs can be given the template -- however, they need to be trained for this from birth (i.e. rearing).
Some wild tribes of forest dwellers have been known to domesticate fleshrakers to serve as guards.
A RIDING DOG on the other hand, is as follows
Collies, Huskies, and St. Bernards are domestic animals in real life and in DnD.
Which were all wild before being domesticated. If born and raised in the wild they would no longer be domesticated, but wild. There is nothing inherent in an animal that makes it born domesticated or prevents it from being domesticated.
In fact one can take a wild animal and domesticate it at almost any age, as domesticating something literally means to tame it. There is no age limit on when you can do so,.
CArc actually has rules for this - under the optional stuff for spellbooks. You can hold so many spell levels on your back, so many on your arms, so many on your palms, etc. It's pretty cool, but you don't get many spells.
Wait... on your back? I have to question how useful that is....
(And the back can actually hold the largest amount of spells.)
Then I will update my druid since he called a baby Fleshraker and reared it himself applying the warbeast template. You really don't want to go there. It explicitly states that you cannot have a templated animal companion. Not that you can apply a template to an animal companion after you call it, not that you can apply a template to an animal before you call it.
Here is what my SRD says:
Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see below). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)
I don't see where it says that you cannot apply templates after you call an animal. I do see where it says that you cannot call a young fleshraker (I bolded the appropriate part).
First the items CL is not 1. We agreed there would be no mageslayer stupidness.
The items were CL1 as of the time I posted -- and as of the time you commented about it BECAUSE of the mageslayer issue. However, due to feedback, I adjusted the rules to disallow mageslayer, removed the mageslayer stuff, and reposted the new equipment list (which is no longer CL1).
Second, a single class ranger can cast first level spells. To use anything other than that certainly violates the spirit of limiting casting.
Um, no. Let me say this yet another time. If a character could only buy spells he or she could cast, then no noncaster could buy any potions / scrolls / wands / etc .. which is clearly not what was voted on.
I'm well aware of what you posted. I think claiming to be a non-caster while you read multiple scrolls, use wands etc is a little fishy.
It might be fishy ... just like I perform a ritual to gain an animal companion -- whom I speak to with my supernatural ability -- during the time where I wild-shape into a fleshraker ... but ... the character (single-classed ranger) is not considered a caster for purposes of this discussion.
Your dog is used to trip ambushes and nothing more.
Kinda ... the time might come when I need it to actually fight.
The fleshraker would be able to finish the CR5 challenge without help from the druid if not for the aura that the wraith has.
How could it? Remember, no help means no spells cast on it by the druid and no equipment (purchased by the druid)
You do not end the wraith fight on the first round. The others you do. The druid also ends all fights but the wraith and the dragon on the first round. The dragon ends up pinned before he can move so I consider that to be over also.
What I posted ... the wraith fight ends on round 1.
You do not deal more damage per hit. The druid has higher strength and is larger than you are. Pouncy deals about 50% more damage than you and your companion combined.
Here is what you posted for your character:
Wildshaped stats
Init: +6
Speed: 50
Attack: 2 claw +9 (1d6 + 5 + poison + 5d6acid), bite +7 (1d6) + tail + 7(1d6 + poison + 5d6 acid)
Abilities: 21,23,19,12,14,13
Here is what I posted for my character
Init + 9
Speed 50 (60)
Attack 2 claws +10 (1d6+5+5d6+poison) +bite +5(1d6+3) + tail +5 (1d6+5d6+3+poison)
Abilities: 18,20,15,13,13,12
As you can see here ... I do more damage with my bite and tail.
I can trade one point of attack bonus (matching your bonus) with power attack to increase all of my attacks one higher.
Versus the wraith (which is what I mentioned) it is undead (favored enemy) which means I do a lot more damage than you do versus undead (druid vs ranger, excluding animal companions).
You hit more often while using an illegal wraith strike wand. Without that I'm curious to see how you think you will hit any more often.
Um ... You might have missed where I reposted the fights and updated the equipment. My attack bonus is higher than yours ... therefore I hit more often.
I posted a v2.0 over a week ago. I can go back and find it and link it if you want.
Please do.
EDIT: Also you are not allowed to attack the same enemy with both claw and tail in the same round. You do this every combat. Also the rug crushes fluffy. Also the way I read it you get ONE trip and grapple attempt per charge if you hit with one of your attacks. Not a free trip and grapple with each hit. If you disagree feel free to let me know and I will update the numbers.
re: claw+tail ... blah ... someone else said I could -- and without the book. I will make errors like this. I will assume you know more than they do, and will adjust the fights accordingly.
Re: trip ... you posted this
When a fleshraker charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including one rake attack. If a fleshraker successfully hits and damages a target of its size or smaller that it pounces on during a charge, it can make a free trip attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the fleshraker wins the opposed trip check, it can make an immediate grapple check. If it succeeds, the opponent is considered grappled and pinned on the ground beneath the fleshraker. On each subsequent round, the fleshraker can deal automatic claw and rake damage with a successful grapple check against a pinned opponent.
I read this to mean that there were multiple attempts on the trip ... but only one grapple check (as you cannot trip a tripped creature, and you only get the grapple attempt when you trip them). But, as I am not familiar with this creature, I will defer to you ...
Re: fluffy ... fluffy is definitely hurt ... he dropped into the negatives, but did not die (per what I posted)
Which were all wild before being domesticated. If born and raised in the wild they would no longer be domesticated, but wild. There is nothing inherent in an animal that makes it born domesticated or prevents it from being domesticated.
If there is no distinction between wild and domestic, then that entire section is meaningless ... so I would have to disagree with you on that part.
The template talks about applying it to a domestic animal ... as well as a wild animal.
In fact one can take a wild animal and domesticate it at almost any age, as domesticating something literally means to tame it. There is no age limit on when you can do so,.Some wild tribes of forest dwellers have been known to domesticate fleshrakers to serve as guards.
Is a standard fleshraker domestic? The answer is no.
Is a fleshraker raised by certain tribes of forest dwellers domestic? Yes, but this is not eligible for animal companionship as it is not a standard fleshraker.
Here is what my SRD says:Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see below). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)
I don't see where it says that you cannot apply templates after you call an animal. I do see where it says that you cannot call a young fleshraker (I bolded the appropriate part).
Kind doesn't denote age, and even if it did, I would ask if you could point out the stats for a young riding dog as proof that you reared it, or proof that it refers to only a specific age group.
Along those same lines, as near as I can tell, age is irrelevant to the stats of the creature in question from a purely mechanical standpoint. Indeed there is an argument to be made that the encountered creatures are in fact of the youngest variety possible (based on the advancement line).
Is a standard fleshraker domestic? The answer is no.
Is a fleshraker raised by certain tribes of forest dwellers domestic? Yes, but this is not eligible for animal companionship as it is not a standard fleshraker.
The answer is yes. It is a valid animal companion and a druid that has a Fleshraker companion and fights in Fleshraker form just might be from one of those tribes hmm? I believe the halfling dino riders in ebberon ride fleshrakers (called clawfoots there?).
I don't care one way or the other, if you use warbeast, I use warbeast, if you don't use warbeast I don't use warbeast. Pouncy owns the crap out of the dog either way.
If there is no distinction between wild and domestic, then that entire section is meaningless ... so I would have to disagree with you on that part.
The only difference between wild and domestic is if an animal is tame ((of an animal) not dangerous or frightened of people; domesticated) or not. This seems to be more a problem with your understanding of what domestication is and how it happens.
Is a standard fleshraker domestic? The answer is no.
Is a fleshraker raised by certain tribes of forest dwellers domestic? Yes, but this is not eligible for animal companionship as it is not a standard fleshraker.
This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
What kind is it? A Fleshraker, from my home region where domesticated fleshrakers are 'appropriate for its kind.'
Kind doesn't denote age, and even if it did, I would ask if you could point out the stats for a young riding dog as proof that you reared it, or proof that it refers to only a specific age group.
Along those same lines, as near as I can tell, age is irrelevant to the stats of the creature in question from a purely mechanical standpoint. Indeed there is an argument to be made that the encountered creatures are in fact of the youngest variety possible (based on the advancement line).
As I mentioned several times, I did not rear the riding dog. There was no need. There is a need to rear the dinosaur though ...
Um, no. Let me say this yet another time. If a character could only buy spells he or she could cast, then no noncaster could buy any potions / scrolls / wands / etc .. which is clearly not what was voted on.
I have a hard time seeing how limiting everyone to a hard cap on caster levels is impartial. Casters can cast higher levels more easilly than non-casters.
How could it? Remember, no help means no spells cast on it by the druid and no equipment (purchased by the druid)
I mean only the fleshraker fighting. Ie. Buff it up and tell it to kill everything in the cave and wait for it to come back.
What I posted ... the wraith fight ends on round 1.
Only because you incorrectly did the suite of attacks. Remove the tail and the wraith lives at least one more round. Also I always assumed the FIRST attack misses to incorp, not the second. It doesn't make much difference but with 2 big damage attacks a round it does make the fight last 1 more round. Also note I have reach, you don't so I get more attacks off.
Here is what you posted for your character:
Here is what I posted for my character
As you can see here ... I do more damage with my bite and tail.
I can trade one point of attack bonus (matching your bonus) with power attack to increase all of my attacks one higher.
Versus the wraith (which is what I mentioned) it is undead (favored enemy) which means I do a lot more damage than you do versus undead (druid vs ranger, excluding animal companions).
Yeah, I see what you posted. The final version of the druid was posted here http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14562301&postcount=1516
Note the druids attacks. +11 claw 1d8 +8 + 5d6. As you can see my greater strength more than makes up for minor BaB bonus you have.
Here is Pouncys attack line: 2 claws + 16(1d8 + 12 + poison) + bite +10 (1d8 +7) + tail +10 (1d6 + 7 + poison)
So you have a +10 to hit, Pouncy has +16. You do 1d6 +5 + poison, Pouncy does 1d8 +12 + poison. Pouncy pushes you down and takes your lunch money. Once I apply the Warbeast template you can add another +1 to hit and damage, wahoo.
Um ... You might have missed where I reposted the fights and updated the equipment. My attack bonus is higher than yours ... therefore I hit more often.
Your bab is higher, and you cannot iterate in animal form. I have a higher total attack bonus.
re: claw+tail ... blah ... someone else said I could -- and without the book. I will make errors like this. I will assume you know more than they do, and will adjust the fights accordingly.
The first time I ran the druid I did the same thing, it was pointed out that I can't do that.
Re: fluffy ... fluffy is definitely hurt ... he dropped into the negatives, but did not die (per what I posted)
Per what you posted, no. But again you used an invalid tail attack that ended the fight before it should have. The rug lives a second round, kills fluffy and then continues to hammer on you. Fluffy ends up in the negative 20-30 neighborhood.
Once again I will say, the wildshape ranger is totally outclassed by the druid. The druid is in every measurable way better and has an animal companion that is better than the combination of the ranger + companion. Track? Check, Pouncy tracks. Spells? Full caster vs CL1.
As I mentioned several times, I did not rear the riding dog. There was no need. There is a need to rear the dinosaur though ...
Strawman argument. Please answer the original question:
Can you, or can you not show any proof that kind is related to age?
The only difference between wild and domestic is if an animal is tame ((of an animal) not dangerous or frightened of people; domesticated) or not. This seems to be more a problem with your understanding of what domestication is and how it happens.
Have you taken a look at the warbeast template?
It states that if the animal is domestic ... then you train it. It then says that if the animal is wild, you need to rear it (raise it) and then train it.
If all domesticated animals start as wild until reared, then there is no need to post both sets of rules.
What kind is it? A Fleshraker, from my home region where domesticated fleshrakers are 'appropriate for its kind.'
Um, no.
Fleshrakers are wild animals ... they are dinosaurs. By no stretch of the imagination is it domestic. Now, I agree that dinosaurs can be given the template -- however, they need to be trained for this from birth (i.e. rearing).
A RIDING DOG on the other hand, is as follows
Collies, Huskies, and St. Bernards are domestic animals in real life and in DnD.
Your really stretching it you know. From what I am getting is you are saying you summoned a non wild animal to be your animal companion. Which means the animal broke out of where ever it was staying left its master to choose to be your animal companion. At that point you train it to become a warbeast Riding dog. You are also stating the same can't be done with a domestic fleshraker because the animals aren't domestic when they are summoned. It specifically states that Fleshrakers are domestic animals and being used as mounts when dealing with forest tribes. If you are allowed to some a domestic animal, so can everyone else. You can't stop it from showing up either.
I mean only the fleshraker fighting. Ie. Buff it up and tell it to kill everything in the cave and wait for it to come back.
Could be ... and some druids focus on exactly that.
Only because you incorrectly did the suite of attacks. Remove the tail and the wraith lives at least one more round. Also I always assumed the FIRST attack misses to incorp, not the second. It doesn't make much difference but with 2 big damage attacks a round it does make the fight last 1 more round. Also note I have reach, you don't so I get more attacks off.
From what you said ... I did the attacks wrong -- so am in the process of redoing it.
Yeah, I see what you posted. The final version of the druid was posted here http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14562301&postcount=1516
Looks good. You might want to remove the reference to the ToB features that you no longer have in the build.
Note the druids attacks. +11 claw 1d8 +8 + 5d6. As you can see my greater strength more than makes up for minor BaB bonus you have.
+11 with claws?
3 (BAB) +6 (str) -1 (size) +1 (GWF) where is the additional +2 to hit coming from?
5 (BAB) +4 (str) +1 (GWF) = +10 for me.
Your bab is higher, and you cannot iterate in animal form. I have a higher total attack bonus.
It doesn't matter if I can iterate in animal form. I have power attack which I can use to add damage to every attack.
The first time I ran the druid I did the same thing, it was pointed out that I can't do that.
Thanks.
Per what you posted, no. But again you used an invalid tail attack that ended the fight before it should have. The rug lives a second round, kills fluffy and then continues to hammer on you. Fluffy ends up in the negative 20-30 neighborhood.
Could be. Probably. However, I don't see how this matters? (the contention is that my battle plans are invalid, everything else flows from there).
Once again I will say, the wildshape ranger is totally outclassed by the druid. The druid is in every measurable way better and has an animal companion that is better than the combination of the ranger + companion. Track? Check, Pouncy tracks. Spells? Full caster vs CL1.
Could be as well .. it is definitely looking like it ...
Your really stretching it you know. From what I am getting is you are saying you summoned a non wild animal to be your animal companion. Which means the animal broke out of where ever it was staying left its master to choose to be your animal companion. At that point you train it to become a warbeast Riding dog. You are also stating the same can't be done with a domestic fleshraker because the animals aren't domestic when they are summoned. It specifically states that Fleshrakers are domestic animals and being used as mounts when dealing with forest tribes. If you are allowed to some a domestic animal, so can everyone else. You can't stop it from showing up either.
Blah ... it is looking like I might need to buy MM3 (or whatever) just so I can read the text of fleshraker ...
What someone else posted was that certain forest tribes have them domesticated ... which means that a fleshraker is not normally a domestic animal.
A St. Bernard *IS* normally a domestic animal.
There is the difference.
Strawman argument. Please answer the original question:
Can you, or can you not show any proof that kind is related to age?
If a baby fleshraker has the same stats as the fleshraker in the book, then no I cannot prove anything.
If a baby fleshraker (just born) has different stats, then it is not a standard fleshraker.
Blah ... it is looking like I might need to buy MM3 (or whatever) just so I can read the text of fleshraker ...
What someone else posted was that certain forest tribes have them domesticated ... which means that a fleshraker is not normally a domestic animal.
A St. Bernard *IS* normally a domestic animal.
There is the difference.
Facts as I see them:
Dogs are sometimes wild, sometimes domestic.
Fleshrakers are sometimes wild, sometimes domestic.
Do you disagree on either count? If so which?
Have you taken a look at the warbeast template?
It states that if the animal is domestic ... then you train it. It then says that if the animal is wild, you need to rear it (raise it) and then train it.
If all domesticated animals start as wild until reared, then there is no need to post both sets of rules.
• There is no limit set on the age at which one must rear an animal.
• There is no statement that it must be a young version.
• The warbeast template has no restrictions on the age when it must be applied.
• The warbeast template has no restrictions on the age when the rearing must occur.
• There is nothing in the warbeast template that assumes that rearing= domesticating.
• The example creature (rhino) is undomesticated.
Um, no.
Are you telling me that there cannot be areas, or indeed entire campaigns settings where dinosaurs are more likely to be encountered as domesticated animals?
Man, don't let those Eberron halfings know that.
A St. Bernard *IS* normally a domestic animal.
No it isn't. If you found a pack of St. Bernards that had never known humans, you'd find them just as wild as anything else, and just as likely to slink off and avoid you or rip your face off as a wild dog would normally be.
If a baby fleshraker has the same stats as the fleshraker in the book, then no I cannot prove anything.
If a baby fleshraker (just born) has different stats, then it is not a standard fleshraker.
You cannot show that age is involved here in any form. You're dancing around saying no and being deliberately obtuse on this point which makes me think that you know you're wrong as well.
Even if you could prove that age enters into it (which you cannot in any form), you still cannot prove that a baby Fleshraker with correct stats is not "appropriate for its kind."
As well there is no distinction in the monster stats of domesticated and wild, and nothing stating that a druid must call (or will call) a wild animal as a companion.
Any rate, this is mostly just boiling down to tweaking equipment which demonstrates to me that equipment (including consumables) have a dramatic impact on effectiveness (duh!). This small change should allow Gurth to succeed in the planar challenge...the boss fight is the questionable one here but with this new configuration he can use the Death Armor more since he is going to be hurt much less. With his wand of 'Inflict Light Wounds' he will be able to do emergency recoveries without consuming his vital spells, conserving them for climatic final fights.
• There is no limit set on the age at which one must rear an animal.
Rear: 3 a (1): to breed and raise (an animal) for use or market (2): to bring to maturity or self-sufficiency usually through nurturing care
You cannot be reared after you are mature, as rearing involves bringing you to maturity. So yes, there is an age when you must rear an animal (it is young/baby)
• The warbeast template has no restrictions on the age when it must be applied.
Correct.
The warbeast template has no restrictions on the age when the rearing must occur.
Rearing is part of growing up ... if the creature is already grown -- it cannot be reared ...
There is nothing in the warbeast template that assumes that rearing= domesticating.
Correct, in fact ... it shows that domesticated animals do not need the special rearing they just need training -- and that wild animals (not domesticated) need to be reared.
Are you telling me that there cannot be areas, or indeed entire campaigns settings where dinosaurs are more likely to be encountered as domesticated animals?
Man, don't let those Eberron halfings know that.
Yes, there are area/campaigns/etc where this is correct -- but ... the fleshraker in the monster manual is not from that area.
No it isn't. If you found a pack of St. Bernards that had never known humans, you'd find them just as wild as anything else, and just as likely to slink off and avoid you or rip your face off as a wild dog would normally be.
Right -- that would be the "not standard for its kind" type of creature.
Normally, if you encounter a St. Bernard or a collie ... you assume it is domestic. If you encounter a fleshraker, you assume it is wild ...
You cannot show that age is involved here in any form. You're dancing around saying no and being deliberately obtuse on this point which makes me think that you know you're wrong as well.
Even if you could prove that age enters into it (which you cannot in any form), you still cannot prove that a baby Fleshraker with correct stats is not "appropriate for its kind."
As well there is no distinction in the monster stats of domesticated and wild, and nothing stating that a druid must call (or will call) a wild animal as a companion.
Tell you what, send an email to CustServ about this ... I bet you a cookie that they will say that in general dogs are domestic ... and that fleshraker dinosaurs in general (general = typical) are not domestic (wild).
Facts as I see them:
Dogs are sometimes wild, sometimes domestic.
Fleshrakers are sometimes wild, sometimes domestic.
Do you disagree on either count? If so which?
Dogs are normally domestic ... occasionally wild (I would expect a dog that I encountered to be domestic). (SRD says it includes working breeds)
Fleshrakers are normally wild ... occasionally domestic (I would expect a fleshraker I encountered to be wild). (What was quoted showed that there are non-normal fleshrakers that are domestic)
Or .. to state this differently ...
When sally (1st grader) takes her pet to school ... is it more normal for her to bring a fleshraker or a st. bernard?
Dogs are normally domestic ... occasionally wild (I would expect a dog that I encountered to be domestic). (SRD says it includes working breeds)
Fleshrakers are normally wild ... occasionally domestic (I would expect a fleshraker I encountered to be wild). (What was quoted showed that there are non-normal fleshrakers that are domestic)
Incorrect.
Fleshrakers are no more "normally wild" than dogs are. They are both species that are sometimes wild and sometimes domesticated.
Originally Posted by Previn View Post
Are you telling me that there cannot be areas, or indeed entire campaigns settings where dinosaurs are more likely to be encountered as domesticated animals?
Man, don't let those Eberron halfings know that.
Yes, there are area/campaigns/etc where this is correct -- but ... the fleshraker in the monster manual is not from that area.
This ends the discussion. You can't assume that the fleshraker doesn't come from one of those areas. You agree that there are settings where dinosaurs are domesticated (as it says so in the MM). I say my charecter comes from one of those regions and has a warbeast fleshraker.
I'll adjust the stats of Pouncy in my post accordingly.
You're just painting yourself into a corner.
Either an entry can apply the warbeast template to the animal companion, or it cannot. All in an effort to say "I am allowed, Grizley is not allowed." Every point you've brought up has been refuted.
Fleshrakers say in their description that they are considered and are used as domesticated animals. The smoke and mirrors trying to say they're not is directly in contradiction to 1) the text in the monster entry, 2) your rules stating that all WotC books are open for use.
Meyer,
You're just painting yourself into a corner.
Either an entry can apply the warbeast template to the animal companion, or it cannot. All in an effort to say "I am allowed, Grizley is not allowed." Every point you've brought up has been refuted.
Fleshrakers say in their description that they are considered and are used as domesticated animals. The smoke and mirrors trying to say they're not is directly in contradiction to 1) the text in the monster entry, 2) your rules stating that all WotC books are open for use.
Not having the book to look at ... it is not surprising if I do not know what it says. People brought up certain tribes of halflings as examples of some types that are domestic. They did not tell me that it says in the description that they are normally domestic.
My point is that, with the information I (have / had), it makes sense to assume that a dinosaur is not a pet, while a st. bernard is ...
If the fleshraker does say that it is normally a domestic animal (i.e. there are stores that have fuzzy sweaters for fleshrakers, people regularly take them to show-and-tell, etc) then warbeast template could be applied ... per the rules. If the book says that only certain fleshrakers (i.e. raised by certain half-ling tribes) are domestic, and that normally people run in fear when they see fleshrakers ... then they need to be reared (i.e. you can buy one, but not have one as an animal companion).
This is not smoke-and-mirrors, or trying to allow myself something but not someone else ... it is a legitimate point of view that seems valid based on what I know of the monster.
We have provided multiple examples, including quoting the text of the monster in question. There is nothing further we can do. We have proved our point, now its up to you to disprove it.
You are quoting a specific instance where a dog can be domesticated.
I am quoting a specific instance where a dino can be domesticated.
You can provide examples of wild dinos.
I can provide examples of wild dogs.
So far the overwhelming majority is with me on this. Not even Auguard has piped up in your defense. There is a reason for this.
Fleshrakers are wild animals ... they are dinosaurs. By no stretch of the imagination is it domestic. Now, I agree that dinosaurs can be given the template -- however, they need to be trained for this from birth (i.e. rearing).
A RIDING DOG on the other hand, is as follows
Collies, Huskies, and St. Bernards are domestic animals in real life and in DnD.
Most are wild, but that doesn't logically that all are, or that those that are cannot be representative of their kind.
Anyway once an animal becomes an animal companion it becomes a magical beast (page 36 of the Player's handbook), meaning that the template cannot be applied period.
From the 3.5 Update Booklet.
Warbeast: Animal or Vermin; 10 ft./5 ft; Listen +17, Spot +5; Alertness,
Diehard, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore); LA —; Skills: A warbeast
gains skills according to its new Hit Dice. It receives a +1 racial bonus on Listen
and Spot checks. Feats: A warbeast gains a feat if its additional Hit Die qualifies
it for one.
Tell you what, send an email to CustServ about this ... I bet you a cookie that they will say that in general dogs are domestic ... and that fleshraker dinosaurs in general (general = typical) are not domestic (wild).
You might want to post and approve the question first. By anyway as per what I have posted above the template cannot be applied to any animal companion.
Anyway once an animal becomes an animal companion it becomes a magical beast (page 36 of the Player's handbook), meaning that the template cannot be applied period.
What PHB are you looking at. I think you haven't picked up your book before you typed that. More then likely you are thinking of familiars or a Paladin's Mount which do change types. Animal companions do not.
Sorry for doing this as I would like this debate to end but you are wrong.
Not having the book to look at ... it is not surprising if I do not know what it says. People brought up certain tribes of halflings as examples of some types that are domestic. They did not tell me that it says in the description that they are normally domestic.
My point is that, with the information I (have / had), it makes sense to assume that a dinosaur is not a pet, while a st. bernard is ...
If the fleshraker does say that it is normally a domestic animal (i.e. there are stores that have fuzzy sweaters for fleshrakers, people regularly take them to show-and-tell, etc) then warbeast template could be applied ... per the rules. If the book says that only certain fleshrakers (i.e. raised by certain half-ling tribes) are domestic, and that normally people run in fear when they see fleshrakers ... then they need to be reared (i.e. you can buy one, but not have one as an animal companion).
This is not smoke-and-mirrors, or trying to allow myself something but not someone else ... it is a legitimate point of view that seems valid based on what I know of the monster.
Interestingly enough, the fleshraker entry talks about that animal being domesticated, albeit by certain tribes, but the riding dog entry does not. If a person was inclined to get RAW-stupid, only the Horse actually says that it's domesticated, at least in the MM.
Everyone is right, as long as one WotC book says they're considered domesticated, by your rules for this thread, they're allowed and considered domesticated.
What PHB are you looking at. I think you haven't picked up your book before you typed that. More then likely you are thinking of familiars or a Paladin's Mount which do change types. Animal companions do not.
Sorry for doing this as I would like this debate to end but you are wrong.
Page 36 as i said. I'll quote this time.
THE DRUID'S ANIMAL COMPANION
A druid's animal companion is different from a normal animal of its kind in many ways. The companion is treated as a magical beat, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend that depend on its type [...]
Alright it doesn't actually become a magical beast, but it is instead treated like one. Therefor the template cannot be applied. Also I believe this means that you cannot cast Animal Growth on it either.
It's OK to point out errors as the point of debating is to find the truth rather than winning, but in this case it doesn't have an impact on the argument.
Second, it does not make sense to me that you'd want to disallow a templated animal. As long as the you take the CR into account for when the, say, Druid can get access to that animal, I don't see what the problem is. In the case of a Warbeast from MM2, it appears that the CR has gone up by one (which seems right given that the HD has gone up by 1). Of course, the problem for any of the druids wishing to have a Warbeast Fleshraker here would be that you could not call the Animal Companion with the Warbeast because it's hit dice would be too high for a fifth level druid to call as an Animal Companion.
Third, many of the terms people are arguing about here are not defined terms in game (domesticated, rear, etc.). My family has had an extensive history working in the circus. I can tell you that you can train wild, adult animals to do amazing things--without the benefit of using the speak with animals spell. It seems entirely plausible within the confines of the game that a druid or ranger could train an adult animal to do all sorts of things.
Fourth, I'd be glad to contact customer service about this set of issues, if someone would be kind enough to tell me the most efficient way to do that.
Best, LoR
Anyway, I think that as a group I think we should be able to tweak this character to round it out a bit. For instance, I might drop beckon the frozen for something that would be more versitile at the moment.
Let me also add that I'm surprised by the tone of some of the commentary on this thread. I realize that we don't always agree and the people often argue in their own interest, but I don't a reason to be purposively insulting. Yes, not everyone may be as smart as you are and people may not know the game as well, but, at times, we all make mistakes and I think we should be a little more charitable. For instance, while I didn't agree with Meyer banning Grizley, I think, overall, Meyer has done a great service to the boards through this thread and he's been very attentive and quite patient with people who've been very mean spirited in their colloquy. Frankly, I don't agree with his basic assumption about casters, but I could be wrong. I think we've all learned a lot through this thread and I have especially like the gauntlets and the character development that have taken place. It's my hope that we'll keep this thread going but perhaps with a little character development of our own. Let's let bygones be bygones and work more together to make progress.
Best, LoR
I like the way people keep using a really awesome cleric spell in potion form. Don't clerics just get the most over-powered of material? And they don't even have to buy potions!
Yeah, I'm wondering how an Archivist build would work. Haven't done that yet. Since the Archivist basically gets both Cleric and Wizard...
Consumables: 1,750gp
Planar Challenge Spoiler - Gurth Level 5 vs Final Boss: Success
Gurth Level 5 - Consumables addition
Preps for this 'Final Test' as called out in the adventure.
Combat - enters with Ogre Zombies - Given Favorable Sacrifice, he will tend to keep them close since Gurth is less vulnerable (feeling cocky).
Gurth Status Entering> Favorable Sacrifice running for energy resistances and DR 10/magic, Death Armor running (4.5 damage per hit). False Life running for 9.5 temp hit points for 40.5 hit points. Charged Inflict Moderate Wounds.
Ignoring the acid sprays because they don't hurt Gurth and are mostly irrelevant with the Ogre Zombies. Besides, only bludgeoning weapons are being used.
Round 1:
Monster of Legend> Charges Gurth - Glavie 20/20/15 (it cannot hit things w/in 10' so I don't see how this works with the pouncing claws which only have 5ft reach but whatever) and claw/claw/bite [95, 190, 285, 380, 475, 570]. Everything hits, only glaive hits do damage 7+7+7=21. Monster takes damage 4.5*3 from claws and bite because of death armor but does no damage...chooses not to rake right? Ogres Zombies would have AoO for 35% chance to hit [35, 70] one Ogre Zombie hits for 21 points of damage.
Gurth> Negative energy burst healing 10 and hurting Monster of Legend for 5 (DC15 makes 70% of the time [70])
Ogre Zombies> Each Ogre Zombie swings with 35% chance to hit [105, 140], both Ogre Zombies miss.
Gurth Status> Currently has 29.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has 55 hit points
Round 2:
Monster of Legend> Does not want to claw after death armor incident. Must move back 10 ft to swing with glave, invoking AoO from Ogre Zombies. Ogre Zombies only have a 25% chance to hit now so [165, 190] for one hit of 21 damage and swings on Gurth for a hit taking 7 damage [665]. Fast heals 5.
Gurth> Partial charge Monster of Legend (Gurth is AoO by Monster of Legend for 7 damage [760]). Gurth has a 55% chance to hit with touch (still charged with Inflict Moderate Wounds) for DC 15 Will save so makes 70% of the time and misses [140] so takes 4.5*2+4 from inflict and 4.5+2 from Charnel Touch for 19.5 damage
Ogre Zombies> Partial charge Monster of Legend, back up to 35% chance to hit [225, 260] and hits for 21 damage
Gurth Status> Currently has 15.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has -1.5 damage
Round 3:
Monster of Legend> Fast Heals 5 to be at 3.5 damage. Weapon was droped when going down and negative...so grabs weapon while standing? Gets hit by one of the Ogre Zombies while standing from AoO (45% chances to hit because coming from prone). Else it takes a final swipe...which isn't going to kill Gurth.
Gurth and his Entourage> Hit, charnel touch, and torch to death…leave nothing to chance
success - Gurth takes body as 'Treasure' woe be the dm that has to deal with the animated boss :P
Gurth Level 5 - Consumables addition
Preps for this 'Final Test' as called out in the adventure.
- False Life: 9.5 Temp Hit Points
- Favorable Sacrifice: Running for whole adventure DR 10/magic and energy resistances
- Death Armor
- Hand charged with Inflict Moderate wounds
Gurth's total hit points, with temp: 40.5
Combat - enters with Ogre Zombies - Given Favorable Sacrifice, he will tend to keep them close since Gurth is less vulnerable (feeling cocky).
Gurth Status Entering> Favorable Sacrifice running for energy resistances and DR 10/magic, Death Armor running (4.5 damage per hit). False Life running for 9.5 temp hit points for 40.5 hit points. Charged Inflict Moderate Wounds.
Ignoring the acid sprays because they don't hurt Gurth and are mostly irrelevant with the Ogre Zombies. Besides, only bludgeoning weapons are being used.
Round 1:
Monster of Legend> Charges Gurth - Glavie 20/20/15 (it cannot hit things w/in 10' so I don't see how this works with the pouncing claws which only have 5ft reach but whatever) and claw/claw/bite [95, 190, 285, 380, 475, 570]. Everything hits, only glaive hits do damage 7+7+7=21. Monster takes damage 4.5*3 from claws and bite because of death armor but does no damage...chooses not to rake right? Ogres Zombies would have AoO for 35% chance to hit [35, 70] one Ogre Zombie hits for 21 points of damage.
Gurth> Negative energy burst healing 10 and hurting Monster of Legend for 5 (DC15 makes 70% of the time [70])
Ogre Zombies> Each Ogre Zombie swings with 35% chance to hit [105, 140], both Ogre Zombies miss.
Gurth Status> Currently has 29.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has 55 hit points
Round 2:
Monster of Legend> Does not want to claw after death armor incident. Must move back 10 ft to swing with glave, invoking AoO from Ogre Zombies. Ogre Zombies only have a 25% chance to hit now so [165, 190] for one hit of 21 damage and swings on Gurth for a hit taking 7 damage [665]. Fast heals 5.
Gurth> Partial charge Monster of Legend (Gurth is AoO by Monster of Legend for 7 damage [760]). Gurth has a 55% chance to hit with touch (still charged with Inflict Moderate Wounds) for DC 15 Will save so makes 70% of the time and misses [140] so takes 4.5*2+4 from inflict and 4.5+2 from Charnel Touch for 19.5 damage
Ogre Zombies> Partial charge Monster of Legend, back up to 35% chance to hit [225, 260] and hits for 21 damage
Gurth Status> Currently has 15.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has -1.5 damage
Round 3:
Monster of Legend> Fast Heals 5 to be at 3.5 damage. Weapon was droped when going down and negative...so grabs weapon while standing? Gets hit by one of the Ogre Zombies while standing from AoO (45% chances to hit because coming from prone). Else it takes a final swipe...which isn't going to kill Gurth.
Gurth and his Entourage> Hit, charnel touch, and torch to death…leave nothing to chance
success - Gurth takes body as 'Treasure' woe be the dm that has to deal with the animated boss :P
On a different note. I'm not understanding how Summoner Druid Man is losing to the Manticore here. Is the claim that the Manticore sees the druid (and his animal companion) first and then kills the druid with spikes before the druid can even get close? Could someone break down for me how this is happening? For the moment, I'm uninterested in the ever smoking bottle issue, which seems mostly like metagaming here and also not the best/most elegant solution (I could be wrong about this cuz I just don't know what's going on here.)
Eversmoking bottle is a great combo with the Greenbound summons. This is because being Greenbound gives them tremorsense which allows them to locate enemies inside the smoke cloud generated by the bottle. At the same time the smoke cloud makes it difficult for enemies to effectively target the summons or especially the druid.
Essentially I permanently alter the battlefield to my advantage via the bottle. I can see, enemies cannot.
Otto - Gurth vs Final Boss - please look and assess and let me know if anything is out of wack. I'll put in the other encounters but they should be fairly easy with the cleric's 'Favorable Sacrifice' bottled for use.
Consumables: 1,750gp
I see a problem.
When the monster charges it will/must stop at 10' distance. Then it makes the 3 glaive attacks. It doesn't do claw/bite attacks because they are out of range. This means no AOOs from the zombies, and Gurth may be out of range for the energy burst (not familiar with the spell). Ogres can still swing on round one if they start next to Gurth, at worst taking a 5' step to do so.
On round 2 the beast will full attack Gurth for 3 more wacks with the Glaive. I'm not sure how Gurths hp are doing now as he has taken 42 or so damage less the healing. From here the beast can continue to full attack or start playing hit and run.
What can Gurth do to prevent the monster from taking a single attack on the second round and moving out of range of the ogres then charging back in on round 3 for a pounce? The monster may be able to eliminate the ogre zombies fairly quickly and then focus on Gurth. Try it out a couple ways if the combat starts to go long so nobody can accuse you of playing the monster like a moron.
Page 36 as i said. I'll quote this time.
Alright it doesn't actually become a magical beast, but it is instead treated like one. Therefor the template cannot be applied. Also I believe this means that you cannot cast Animal Growth on it either.
It's OK to point out errors as the point of debating is to find the truth rather than winning, but in this case it doesn't have an impact on the argument.
I found the problem, you have the original 3.5 PHB I have the leather bound PHB 3.5 which has the errata already in it. You should have a look before you confuse anybody.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a
Animal Companion
Player’s Handbook, page 36
Contrary to the text, a druid’s animal companion is not
treated as a magical beast; it remains an animal.
Trim the first paragraph of the sidebar so that it reads as
follows:
A druid’s animal companion is superior to a normal
animal of its kind and has special powers, as described
below.
I see a problem.
When the monster charges it will/must stop at 10' distance. Then it makes the 3 glaive attacks. It doesn't do claw/bite attacks because they are out of range. This means no AOOs from the zombies, and Gurth may be out of range for the energy burst (not familiar with the spell). Ogres can still swing on round one if they start next to Gurth, at worst taking a 5' step to do so.
On round 2 the beast will full attack Gurth for 3 more wacks with the Glaive. I'm not sure how Gurths hp are doing now as he has taken 42 or so damage less the healing. From here the beast can continue to full attack or start playing hit and run.
What can Gurth do to prevent the monster from taking a single attack on the second round and moving out of range of the ogres then charging back in on round 3 for a pounce? The monster may be able to eliminate the ogre zombies fairly quickly and then focus on Gurth. Try it out a couple ways if the combat starts to go long so nobody can accuse you of playing the monster like a moron.
I agree with Grizley about Ruthaer's fight v. final boss this is pretty much what I would have said.
- Also, you have DR 10/magic, the glaive does 2d8+15, yet the monster is only dealing 7 damage with the glaive. On the charge, you would have taken 14 damage each hit.
- Also, since he didn't take death armor damage, that affects his hit points, which would be at 60 after round 1. This lets him live one more round.
- Also, if Death Armor is your normal tactic, you need to take that into account for all your encounters;
- specifically, explain away how that 1 round/level spell is still running for the entirety of the other encounters (lasts 4 rounds), when some of the encounters don't actually start for several rounds, and you really have no idea when they're going to start. That's the whole purpose of randomizing both the sequence of the other fights, and randomizing the amount of time between fights;
- and spend that 50 gold material component for all 5 encounters. Adding another 250 gold puts you over the limit and if you change stuff around, it brings into question the successes of previous rounds).
Any time I see monsters not full attacking and acting the moron it becomes suspect. Especially when that non-full attack ends up heavily in the character's favor and the monster isn't actually a moron.
I agree with Grizley about Ruthaer's fight v. final boss this is pretty much what I would have said.
- Also, you have DR 10/magic, the glaive does 2d8+15, yet the monster is only dealing 7 damage with the glaive. On the charge, you would have taken 14 damage each hit.
- Also, since he didn't take death armor damage, that affects his hit points, which would be at 60 after round 1. This lets him live one more round.
- Also, if Death Armor is your normal tactic, you need to take that into account for all your encounters;
- specifically, explain away how that 1 round/level spell is still running for the entirety of the other encounters (lasts 4 rounds), when some of the encounters don't actually start for several rounds, and you really have no idea when they're going to start. That's the whole purpose of randomizing both the sequence of the other fights, and randomizing the amount of time between fights;
- and spend that 50 gold material component for all 5 encounters. Adding another 250 gold puts you over the limit and if you change stuff around, it brings into question the successes of previous rounds).
Any time I see monsters not full attacking and acting the moron it becomes suspect. Especially when that non-full attack ends up heavily in the character's favor and the monster isn't actually a moron.
Cool - Death Armor isn't something he would cast with every encounter - only something he would do in a 'Final Battle' as indicated in the writeup and as it is a precious 2nd level spell with a short duration of which he does not have many of. In this battle it was irrelevant for the last round (would have been the last spell cast before stepping through - but probably will now be relevant due to mistakes being fixed. If the death armor thing is questionable then I'll just remove the casting of it from the soup ups. Wish I had a decent replacement (it has turned into a useless spell).
I thought the glave and all the natural attacks did not make sense
This means Ikerens' DMM Cleric has battle issues. Figured it was just some oddity I didn't realize about pounce. Wrt damage - I'll fix the error though that doesn't bode well.Cool - Death Armor isn't something he would cast with every encounter - only something he would do in a 'Final Battle' as indicated in the writeup and as it is a precious 2nd level spell with a short duration of which he does not have many of. In this battle it was irrelevant for the last round (would have been the last spell cast before stepping through - but probably will now be relevant due to mistakes being fixed. If the death armor thing is questionable then I'll just remove the casting of it from the soup ups. Wish I had a decent replacement (it has turned into a useless spell).
I thought the glave and all the natural attacks did not make sense
Ok, gets to round 3 where the Monster runs around in circles laughing and proceeds to kill Gurth and his minions
(added trait: slow for 4 more hit points - removed death armor from pre-casting, added longstrider potion to offset 'slow' some). To no avail...Gurth dies. Fairly certain 7th level Gurth would achieve the same demise.
Gurth Level 5 with Favorable Sacrifice running meeting is maker against Planar Final Boss...not without good effort
Gurth Status Entering> Favorable Sacrifice running for energy resistances and DR 10/magic. False Life running for 9.5 temp hit points for 44.5 hit points. Longstrider potion running and a charged Inflict Moderate Wounds Hand.
Ignoring the acid sprays because they don't hurt Gurth and are mostly irrelevant with the Ogre Zombies
Round 1:
Monster of Legend> Charges Gurth - Glavie 20/20/15 [95, 190, 285]. Everything hits, only glaive hits do damage (4.5*2+5) 14+14+14=42.
Gurth> Held action to partial charge Monster of Legend after Ogre Zombies partial charge and try to hit with his 'Inflict Moderate Wounds'.
Ogre Zombies> Each Ogre Zombie partial charges and swings with 45% chance to hit since Monster of Legend charged reducing its AC and they are charging so one hit [45, 90] for 21 damage. AoO on Ogre Zombie for 95% chance to hit [380] so takes (4.5*2+15)=24 damage
Gurth (held action)> Partial charges Monster of Legend to slap with charged 'Inflict Light Wounds' has a . DC 15 Will save so he will make it 70% of the time, makes the same. He takes (4.5*2+4)/2 (Inflict) + 4.5 +2 (Charnel Touch) for 13 damage.
Gurth Status> Currently has 2.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has 47 hit points
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 55 hit points
Round 2:
Monster of Legend> Lets in on the claws and bites and rakes - no damage. Fast heals 5.
Gurth> Negative Energy Burst to heal 10 and wounds Monster of Legend for 10 (DC15 will with 70% chance to make [140] so it misses)
Ogre Zombies> Attack Monster of Legend with 35% chance to hit [125, 160] so one hit for 21 damage
Gurth Status> Currently has 12.5 hit points
Monster of Legend Status> Currently has 21 hit points left
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 65 hit points
Round 3:
Monster of Legend> Double moves back…so no swings…runs around the ring and waits to get to full health and tries this all over…killing zombies first (they were nice and soft with no DR to him)
Gurth Status Entering> Favorable Sacrifice running for energy resistances and DR 10/magic. False Life running for 9.5 temp hit points for 44.5 hit points. Longstrider potion running and a charged Inflict Moderate Wounds Hand.
Ignoring the acid sprays because they don't hurt Gurth and are mostly irrelevant with the Ogre Zombies
Round 1:
Monster of Legend> Charges Gurth - Glavie 20/20/15 [95, 190, 285]. Everything hits, only glaive hits do damage (4.5*2+5) 14+14+14=42.
Gurth> Held action to partial charge Monster of Legend after Ogre Zombies partial charge and try to hit with his 'Inflict Moderate Wounds'.
Ogre Zombies> Each Ogre Zombie partial charges and swings with 45% chance to hit since Monster of Legend charged reducing its AC and they are charging so one hit [45, 90] for 21 damage. AoO on Ogre Zombie for 95% chance to hit [380] so takes (4.5*2+15)=24 damage
Gurth (held action)> Partial charges Monster of Legend to slap with charged 'Inflict Light Wounds' has a . DC 15 Will save so he will make it 70% of the time, makes the same. He takes (4.5*2+4)/2 (Inflict) + 4.5 +2 (Charnel Touch) for 13 damage.
Gurth Status> Currently has 2.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has 47 hit points
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 55 hit points
Round 2:
Monster of Legend> Lets in on the claws and bites and rakes - no damage. Fast heals 5.
Gurth> Negative Energy Burst to heal 10 and wounds Monster of Legend for 10 (DC15 will with 70% chance to make [140] so it misses)
Ogre Zombies> Attack Monster of Legend with 35% chance to hit [125, 160] so one hit for 21 damage
Gurth Status> Currently has 12.5 hit points
Monster of Legend Status> Currently has 21 hit points left
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 65 hit points
Round 3:
Monster of Legend> Double moves back…so no swings…runs around the ring and waits to get to full health and tries this all over…killing zombies first (they were nice and soft with no DR to him)
Page 36 as i said. I'll quote this time.
Alright it doesn't actually become a magical beast, but it is instead treated like one. Therefor the template cannot be applied. Also I believe this means that you cannot cast Animal Growth on it either.
It's OK to point out errors as the point of debating is to find the truth rather than winning, but in this case it doesn't have an impact on the argument.
Animal Companion
Player’s Handbook, page 36
Contrary to the text, a druid’s animal companion is not
treated as a magical beast; it remains an animal.
Trim the first paragraph of the sidebar so that it reads as
follows:
A druid’s animal companion is superior to a normal
animal of its kind and has special powers, as described
below.
It works fine.
Yeah, I'm wondering how an Archivist build would work. Haven't done that yet. Since the Archivist basically gets both Cleric and Wizard...
Yeah, I really like the archivist, and they have great versatility...but at this level, they don't have divine metamagic, and their low HP/low BAB means they won't be able to melee through it. Casting through it, maybe...but their little better off than a wizard. Archivists make great support characters, and once they get into Sacred Exorcist and start using DMM persist, can easily overshadow clerics with easier access to low level spells and things like that...but at lower levels like this, I find they play better as a support character. And this is a solo endeavor (one of the biases of the thread, but a reasonable one).
If we wanted truly to test versatility and power, I'd suggest that we create parties of 4, one being all melee characters without spells/Caster levels, and one being all caster parties, and then from there see which can go further. The problem would be the massive level of complexity added, which isn't well suited to this already large thread.
A repost of the dramatically overpowered cleric:
The final boss! http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14598829&postcount=1813
The CR “6” Monster of Legend Tauric Thingy.
Initiative: I have a 5% chance to win, bringing me to 35%. Still a loss.
Round 1: It charges, with attacks at 20/20/15, 20.5 damage each, and claws at 19/19/, with a 1/6 chance of dealing 1 damage, and a bite at +18, with a 3/8 chance of dealing damage (average 2)
So, that’s 95/180/255/350/445/535
So attacks 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 hit.
I take 31.5 damage, plus 1/6 and 3/8 for nothing, so only 31.5 damage.
It may or may not try to grapple me (it didn’t deal damage with its’ bite, but it did hit: Can it still grapple? Even if it does, it takes 21 points of damage, and with Int 11, Wis 12, it will say “wait a second, my glaive did a hell of a lot of damage, and my claws didn’t. I probably should let go and continue to destroy him with my glaive. Plus there seems to be some spell that kills me as I grapple.”
Reasonable, yes? We’ll say it doesn’t try to grapple, since the bite didn’t do damage (he didn’t get to sink his teeth into my arm, they kinda, slid off).
I use a swift action to drink my potion of swift haste , then make a full attack at +11, versus touch AC 14 (90% chance)
My carry over was 190/250, so. -10%/50. Attack 1 gives me 80/50, attack 2 is 170/150, so both hit, dealing 88 damage.
It falls to the ground, dead.
Round 2: Fast healing 5 brings it back up to -2 hp.
I coup de grace it, dealing 88 more damage.
ok I think there are problems here (think the DMM cleric dies against that nasty final boss):
- The first round charge results in the Monster of Legend thingy being 20' from DMM Cleric as the glaive has a 20' reach - not going to grapple and won't be doing claw/claw/bite. Also, it should be 42 damage for the three glaive hits (4.5*2+15-(10 for your DR)) = 14 per hit.
- DMM Cleric would be able to ?charge? resulting in getting hit again from AoO and die, or retreat to heal? Either way the final boss should win.
Draken: 1 Cleric/5 Archivist
Race: Human
Level: 6 (1 Cleric/5 Archivist)
Note: Negatively aligned cleric
Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14 (6 points) really 18 all the time with bite of wererat persisted
Con: 14 (6 points) really 16 all the time with bite of wererat persisted
Int: 17 (10 points + 1 Level Up)
Wis: 11 (3 points)
Cha: 8 (0 points)
Hit Points: 43.5 = 8 (Cleric 1st) + 3.5 * 5 (Archivist) + 6 (Slow) + 6 * 2 (Con)
*Hit Points: 49.5 w/ persisted bite of the wererat
AC: 25 = 10 + 4 (mage armor usually running and lasts 5 hours) + 3 (large steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (Dex w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 3 (natural enh w/ persisted bite of wererat)
Fully souped AC:
AC: 35 = 10 + 4 (mage armor usually running and lasts 5 hours) + 3 (large steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (Dex w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 3 (natural enh w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 2 (deflection w/ shield of faith) + 6 (natural w/ alter self to troglodyte) + 2 (sacred w/ silverbeard)
Domains:
Undeath (Extra Turning)
Planning (Extend Spell)
Feats:
Flaw: Murkey Eyed, Inattentive
Feat From Flaw: Persist Spell
Feat From Flaw: Extra Turning
Human: Extra Turning
1: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
3: Sudden Maximize
6: Sudden Empower
Turnings: 3 -1 [cha] + 4 [Extra Turning] + 4 [Extra Trning] + 4 [Extra Turning From Undeath] = 14 (two persists)
Skills: 4 + 3 (int) + 1 (Human) per level (Archivist) and 2 + 3 (int) + 1 (Human) per level (Cleric)
Spellcraft: 9 Ranks
Concentration: 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Religion): 9 Ranks
Knowldge (Nature): 8 Ranks
Diplomacy: 9 Ranks
Gather Information: 8 Ranks
Search: 8 Ranks
Heal: 1 Rank
Spells to 'Purchase':
Uses Divine Insight to gaurantee success learning spells.
Spent 2,675 gp on learning spells.
1st:
Learn: Sliverbear (SC) - Purchase paladin 1st level scroll for 50 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
Learn: Remove Scent (SC) - Purchase druid 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
2nd:
Learn: Bite of the Wererat (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Blinding Spittle (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Alter Self (RoE) - Purchase transformation domain 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
3rd
Learn: Fly (PH) - Purchase travel domain 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Learn: Ice Axe (SC) - Purchase cleric 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Spells Known - Archivist - (5+int/4/2)
1st: conviction, shield of faith, blessed aim, healthful rest, silverbeard (paladin 1st), mage armor (spell domain 1st), restoration, lesser (paladin 1st), remove scent (druid 1st), resist energy (ranger 1st)
2nd: cure moderate wounds, [XXXXX], divine insight (SC), [xxxxx], Alter Self (transformation domain 2nd), bite of the wererat (druid 2nd), blinding spittle (druid 2nd)
3rd: darkfire, favorable sacrifice, ice axe (learned 3rd level cleric), fly (travel domain 3rd)
Castings per day:
Spells Cast/Day - Archivist - (5/4/3)
Spells Cast/Day - Cleric - (1+D)
Equipment:
Spent: 9,495 gp (total spend with spell learning is 12,170 gp out of 13,000 gp)
1,570 gp - +1 Steel Shield
750 gp - Wand of Mage Armor w/ 50 charges
750 gp - Wand of Cure Light Wounds w/ 50 charges
1,500 gp - Wand of Restoration, Lesser w/ 50 charges (made by paladin)
750 gp - material components to cast favorable sacrifice
4,500 gp - Wand of Blinding Spittle
325 gp - two scrolls of fly (5 CL)
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (persisted), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly, darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower), favorable sacrifice
Typical Memorized Cleric:
Cure Light Wounds? Doesn't really matter.
Race: Human
Level: 6 (1 Cleric/5 Archivist)
Note: Negatively aligned cleric
Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14 (6 points) really 18 all the time with bite of wererat persisted
Con: 14 (6 points) really 16 all the time with bite of wererat persisted
Int: 17 (10 points + 1 Level Up)
Wis: 11 (3 points)
Cha: 8 (0 points)
Hit Points: 43.5 = 8 (Cleric 1st) + 3.5 * 5 (Archivist) + 6 (Slow) + 6 * 2 (Con)
*Hit Points: 49.5 w/ persisted bite of the wererat
AC: 25 = 10 + 4 (mage armor usually running and lasts 5 hours) + 3 (large steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (Dex w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 3 (natural enh w/ persisted bite of wererat)
Fully souped AC:
AC: 35 = 10 + 4 (mage armor usually running and lasts 5 hours) + 3 (large steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (Dex w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 3 (natural enh w/ persisted bite of wererat) + 2 (deflection w/ shield of faith) + 6 (natural w/ alter self to troglodyte) + 2 (sacred w/ silverbeard)
Domains:
Undeath (Extra Turning)
Planning (Extend Spell)
Feats:
Flaw: Murkey Eyed, Inattentive
Feat From Flaw: Persist Spell
Feat From Flaw: Extra Turning
Human: Extra Turning
1: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
3: Sudden Maximize
6: Sudden Empower
Turnings: 3 -1 [cha] + 4 [Extra Turning] + 4 [Extra Trning] + 4 [Extra Turning From Undeath] = 14 (two persists)
Skills: 4 + 3 (int) + 1 (Human) per level (Archivist) and 2 + 3 (int) + 1 (Human) per level (Cleric)
Spellcraft: 9 Ranks
Concentration: 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Religion): 9 Ranks
Knowldge (Nature): 8 Ranks
Diplomacy: 9 Ranks
Gather Information: 8 Ranks
Search: 8 Ranks
Heal: 1 Rank
Spells to 'Purchase':
Uses Divine Insight to gaurantee success learning spells.
Spent 2,675 gp on learning spells.
1st:
Learn: Sliverbear (SC) - Purchase paladin 1st level scroll for 50 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
Learn: Remove Scent (SC) - Purchase druid 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
2nd:
Learn: Bite of the Wererat (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Blinding Spittle (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Alter Self (RoE) - Purchase transformation domain 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
3rd
Learn: Fly (PH) - Purchase travel domain 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Learn: Ice Axe (SC) - Purchase cleric 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Spells Known - Archivist - (5+int/4/2)
1st: conviction, shield of faith, blessed aim, healthful rest, silverbeard (paladin 1st), mage armor (spell domain 1st), restoration, lesser (paladin 1st), remove scent (druid 1st), resist energy (ranger 1st)
2nd: cure moderate wounds, [XXXXX], divine insight (SC), [xxxxx], Alter Self (transformation domain 2nd), bite of the wererat (druid 2nd), blinding spittle (druid 2nd)
3rd: darkfire, favorable sacrifice, ice axe (learned 3rd level cleric), fly (travel domain 3rd)
Castings per day:
Spells Cast/Day - Archivist - (5/4/3)
Spells Cast/Day - Cleric - (1+D)
Equipment:
Spent: 9,495 gp (total spend with spell learning is 12,170 gp out of 13,000 gp)
1,570 gp - +1 Steel Shield
750 gp - Wand of Mage Armor w/ 50 charges
750 gp - Wand of Cure Light Wounds w/ 50 charges
1,500 gp - Wand of Restoration, Lesser w/ 50 charges (made by paladin)
750 gp - material components to cast favorable sacrifice
4,500 gp - Wand of Blinding Spittle
325 gp - two scrolls of fly (5 CL)
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (persisted), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly, darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower), favorable sacrifice
Typical Memorized Cleric:
Cure Light Wounds? Doesn't really matter.
Note: the archivist is 6th level (5 Archivist/1 Cleric). The build does not work for what is needed at 5th level.
Draken 1 Cleric/5 Archivist
Draken vs Planar Final Boss - blinding spittle + persisted darkfire + persisted bahamut's blessing + lots of time
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (persisted), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly, darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower), favorable sacrifice
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC (Souped): 35 = 10 + 4 (mage armor) + 2 (Sacred w/ Silverbeard) + 6 (Natural Armor w/ Troglodyte) + 3 (steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (dex w/ bite of wererat) + 3 (Natural Armor Enhancement) + 2 (deflection w/ extended shield of faith)
Draken enters - blinding spittle wand armed.
Round 1: (need to update based on new AC)
Monster of Legend> Charges and hits with glaive. Draken is flat-footed so only AC 23 and Monster charging so +2 TH from charge giving it a 90% chance to hit on the two primary glaive swings and 65% chance to hit on the secondary, doing 28 (DR 10/+ from Persisted Bahamut's Blessing) out of Draken's 49.5 from two hits with primary swings. [90, 180, 245]
Draken> Activates wand and targets Monster of Legend with blinding spittle, ranged touch. TH = 4 = 2 (BA) + 4 (Dex w/ Cat's Grace) + 2 (Sacred w/ Blessed Aim) - 4 (blinding spittle penalty) and Monster is -2 to AC from charge. So 55% chance to touch [55], Monster of Legend is blinded. Fly diagonl 60' from original path.
Round 2-9:
Monster of Legend> Blinded, 5' steps forward swinging where it last saw Draken. No hits. Tries to scent but cannot scent. Tries to follow noises but always moving afterwards.
Draken> 4.5+1 healing from wand
Rounds 10-60:
Monster of Legend> Blinded, 5' steps forward swinging where it last saw Draken. No hits. Tries to scent but cannot scent. Tries to follow noises but always moving afterwards.
Draken> Monster of Legend is denied dex and loses 2 AC for being blinded. So AC 8 to touch. Draken can strike from 120ft away with darkfire with TH = 8 = 2 (BA) + 4 (Dex w/ cat's grace) + 2 (Sacred w/ Blessed Aim). blessed aim and cat's grace run out around round 50, so for the first set of rounds Draken hits 95% of the time for an average of 2*3.5=7 damage. 0.95*7=6.65. It fast heals at 5 per round so it is losing 1.65 per round. When the blessed aim and cat's grace run out draken hits 85% of the time so 0.85*7=5.95 or .95 damage per round.
Tedious but I think this gets the job done.
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (persisted), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly, darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower), favorable sacrifice
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC (Souped): 35 = 10 + 4 (mage armor) + 2 (Sacred w/ Silverbeard) + 6 (Natural Armor w/ Troglodyte) + 3 (steel shield +1 enh) + 5 (dex w/ bite of wererat) + 3 (Natural Armor Enhancement) + 2 (deflection w/ extended shield of faith)
Draken enters - blinding spittle wand armed.
Round 1: (need to update based on new AC)
Monster of Legend> Charges and hits with glaive. Draken is flat-footed so only AC 23 and Monster charging so +2 TH from charge giving it a 90% chance to hit on the two primary glaive swings and 65% chance to hit on the secondary, doing 28 (DR 10/+ from Persisted Bahamut's Blessing) out of Draken's 49.5 from two hits with primary swings. [90, 180, 245]
Draken> Activates wand and targets Monster of Legend with blinding spittle, ranged touch. TH = 4 = 2 (BA) + 4 (Dex w/ Cat's Grace) + 2 (Sacred w/ Blessed Aim) - 4 (blinding spittle penalty) and Monster is -2 to AC from charge. So 55% chance to touch [55], Monster of Legend is blinded. Fly diagonl 60' from original path.
Round 2-9:
Monster of Legend> Blinded, 5' steps forward swinging where it last saw Draken. No hits. Tries to scent but cannot scent. Tries to follow noises but always moving afterwards.
Draken> 4.5+1 healing from wand
Rounds 10-60:
Monster of Legend> Blinded, 5' steps forward swinging where it last saw Draken. No hits. Tries to scent but cannot scent. Tries to follow noises but always moving afterwards.
Draken> Monster of Legend is denied dex and loses 2 AC for being blinded. So AC 8 to touch. Draken can strike from 120ft away with darkfire with TH = 8 = 2 (BA) + 4 (Dex w/ cat's grace) + 2 (Sacred w/ Blessed Aim). blessed aim and cat's grace run out around round 50, so for the first set of rounds Draken hits 95% of the time for an average of 2*3.5=7 damage. 0.95*7=6.65. It fast heals at 5 per round so it is losing 1.65 per round. When the blessed aim and cat's grace run out draken hits 85% of the time so 0.85*7=5.95 or .95 damage per round.
Tedious but I think this gets the job done.
As a 5th the archivist wasn't working for me. As a 6th I think this is good. Going to try this against the 'Final Boss' from the planar shortly. That seems to be a starting tuning point. Let me know if something is out of wack (too much spent gold, brokeness in the build, etc)Draken: 1 Cleric/5 Archivist
Race: Human
Level: 6 (1 Cleric/5 Archivist)
Note: Negatively aligned cleric
Stats:
Str: 8 (0 point)
Dex: 14 (6 points)
Con: 14 (6 points)
Int: 17 (10 points + 1 Level Up)
Wis: 11 (3 points)
Cha: 8 (0 points)
Hit Points: 49.5 = 8 (Cleric 1st) + 3.5 * 5 (Archivist) + 6 (Improved Toughness) + 6 (Slow) + 6 * 2 (Con)
AC: 10 + 4 (Chainshirt) + 2 (Dex)
Domains:
Undeath (Extra Turning)
Planning (Extend Spell)
Feats:
Flaw: Murkey Eyed
Feat From Flaw: Persist Spell
Feat From Flaw: Extra Turning
Human: Extra Turning
1: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Improved Toughness
Turnings: 3 - 1 [Cha] + 4 [Extra Turning] + 4 [Extra Turning] + 4 [Extra Turning From Undeath] = 14
Skills: 4 + 3 (int) + 1 (Human) per level
Spellcraft: 9 Ranks
Concentration: 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Religion): 9 Ranks
Knowledge (Nature): 9 Ranks
Diplomacy: 9 Ranks
Gather Information: 9 Ranks
Search: 9 Ranks
Spells to 'Purchase':
Uses Divine Insight to gaurantee success learning spells.
Spent 2,900 gp on learning spells.
1st:
Learn: Sliverbear (SC) - Purchase paladin 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
Learn: Mage Armor (PH) - Purchase spell domain 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
Learn: Restoration, Lesser (PH) - Purchase paladin 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
Learn: Resist Energy (PH) - Purchase ranger 1st level scroll for 25 gp. Scribe into book for 100 gp.
2nd:
Learn: Remove Scent (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Blinding Spittle (SC) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
Learn: Barkskin (PH) - Purchase druid 2nd level scroll for 150 gp. Scribe into book for 200 gp.
3rd
Learn: Blessing of Bahamut (SC) - Purchase paladin 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Learn: Fly (PH) - Purchase travel domain 3rd level scroll for 375 gp. Scribe into book for 300 gp.
Spells Known - Archivist - (5+int/4/2)
1st: conviction, shield of faith, blessed aim, [XXXXX], silverbeard (Paladin 1st), mage armor (spell domain 1st), restoration, lesser (Paladin 1st)
2nd: cure moderate wounds, cat's grace, divine insight (SC), [xxxxxx], remove scent (Druid 2nd), blinding spittle (Druid 2nd), barkskin (Druid 2nd)
3rd: darkfire, magic vestment, blessing of bahamut (paladin 3rd), fly (travel domain 3rd)
Castings per day:
Spells Cast/Day - Archivist - (5/4/3)
Spells Cast/Day - Cleric - (1+D)
Equipment:
Spent: 7,225 gp (total spend with spell learning is 10,125 gp...how much does a 6th level character get?)
100 gp - Chainshirt 100 gp
750 gp - Wand of Cure Light Wounds w/ 50 charges
4,500 gp - Wand of Blinding Spittle w/ 50 charges
750 gp - Wand of Restoration, Lesser w/ 50 charges
1,125 gp - Three scrolls of fly
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), shield of faith x 2 (5 min), conviction x 1 (50 min)
2nd: remove scent (50 min), barkskin (50 min), cat's grace x 2 (5 min)
3rd: blessing of bahamut (use DMM to Persist), darkfire (use DMM to Persist), magic vestment (5 hours)
Typical Memorized (Cleric):
1st: Domain: Deathwatch, Cure Light Wounds
* The first round charge results in the Monster of Legend thingy being 20' from DMM Cleric as the glaive has a 20' reach - not going to grapple and won't be doing claw/claw/bite. Also, it should be 42 damage for the three glaive hits (4.5*2+15-(10 for your DR)) = 14 per hit.
* DMM Cleric would be able to ?charge? resulting in getting hit again from AoO and die, or retreat to heal? Either way the final boss should win.
Back when I did this it's damage was listed as 1d10 and it's reach as being 10. I haven't done an update.
It works fine.
:surrender
Stupid errata.
Domesticated Fleshrakers are not the standard for their type. It's all well and good that it turns out anything can be domesticated, but I don't think that's what the authors intended (I know, RAI is thin ice to be walkin' on). I think they meant domesticated like cows, dogs, chickens, etc. I'm not sure I would consider a circus lion to be "domesticated."
*EDIT* Oh ya. Fleshrakers can't use Tail and Bite in the same round, but you're free to do one with claws/pounce/whatever.
How do you know that is the final monster?
How do you know that there won't be a few rounds of delay before the final battle, such as the obligatory BBEG speech?
That's why I just went with the assumption that it was cast for every battle. Choosing it specifically for the final battle just looks a lot like metagaming.
Ok, gets to round 3 where the Monster runs around in circles laughing and proceeds to kill Gurth and his minions
(added trait: slow for 4 more hit points - removed death armor from pre-casting, added longstrider potion to offset 'slow' some). To no avail...Gurth dies. Fairly certain 7th level Gurth would achieve the same demise.
Gurth Level 5 with Favorable Sacrifice running meeting is maker against Planar Final Boss...not without good effort
Gurth Status Entering> Favorable Sacrifice running for energy resistances and DR 10/magic. False Life running for 9.5 temp hit points for 44.5 hit points. Longstrider potion running and a charged Inflict Moderate Wounds Hand.
Ignoring the acid sprays because they don't hurt Gurth and are mostly irrelevant with the Ogre Zombies
Round 1:
Monster of Legend> Charges Gurth - Glavie 20/20/15 [95, 190, 285]. Everything hits, only glaive hits do damage (4.5*2+5) 14+14+14=42.
Gurth> Held action to partial charge Monster of Legend after Ogre Zombies partial charge and try to hit with his 'Inflict Moderate Wounds'.
Ogre Zombies> Each Ogre Zombie partial charges and swings with 45% chance to hit since Monster of Legend charged reducing its AC and they are charging so one hit [45, 90] for 21 damage. AoO on Ogre Zombie for 95% chance to hit [380] so takes (4.5*2+15)=24 damage
Gurth (held action)> Partial charges Monster of Legend to slap with charged 'Inflict Light Wounds' has a . DC 15 Will save so he will make it 70% of the time, makes the same. He takes (4.5*2+4)/2 (Inflict) + 4.5 +2 (Charnel Touch) for 13 damage.
Gurth Status> Currently has 2.5 hit points
Monster of Legend> Currently has 47 hit points
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 55 hit points
Round 2:
Monster of Legend> Lets in on the claws and bites and rakes - no damage. Fast heals 5.
Claw, Claw, Bite, 5 ft. step, Glaive, Glaive, Glaive
That actually brings up something else I realized just recently...
The Monster of Legend and the Tauric templates don't change the reach of the base humanoid (the lizardfolk). It's a strange interaction actually, and I'm not sure how to handle it.
It's a large outsider, so you'd think it took a large glaive (20 ft. reach)
The templates say to maintain the creature's reach, which is as a Lizardfolk.
It doesn't make sense to force it to use a large weapon if that's supposed to give it a penalty for using a wrong-sized weapon. Conversely, it doesn't make sense to force the penalty for using a medium glaive as a large creature.
I'm willing to hear input from everyone on this.
Gurth> Negative Energy Burst to heal 10 and wounds Monster of Legend for 10 (DC15 will with 70% chance to make [140] so it misses)
Ogre Zombies> Attack Monster of Legend with 35% chance to hit [125, 160] so one hit for 21 damage
Gurth Status> Currently has 12.5 hit points
Monster of Legend Status> Currently has 21 hit points left
Wounded Ogre Zombie> Currently has 65 hit points
Round 3:
Monster of Legend> Double moves back…so no swings…runs around the ring and waits to get to full health and tries this all over…killing zombies first (they were nice and soft with no DR to him)
[/sblock]
Or, move back to glaive reach and end the character. The zombies are pretty easy after the character is dead.
How are you determining if a Build is overpowered?
What is the definition of Overpowered?
what has been done so far.... is various low-level gauntlets have been designed, which various builds have gone thru. but how does this show whether a build is overpowered?
i would like to suggest that it comes down to timing.... How quickly a Build can overcome an obstacle determines if it is overpowered... exa:
a Party of 5 characters comes up to a cave with a dragon .... the dragon notices the party and attacks... but a single Character beats it to the punch and singlehandedly defeats the dragon before the rest of the party even Acts.... that would tend to prove Overpoweredness.. especially if it occured that way with every encounter.. one character defeating the threat without needing the rest of the party to do anything
exa: if the same situation occured and the Character required 50 rounds .... then it would not be too overpowered(it would still be a Powerful build)
i think we need to track how long it takes for a build to defeat a challenge... and the methods used...exa(i did not check exactly how long these builds took.... but Tshern/carnivore was quickest, of these):
Success: (speed=????) PhraedrusXY:Fire Elf Wizard Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor)..... Buff with Magic....Melee Attacks and Breath Weapon
Success:(speed=????) Ikeren: DMM Cleric - Tactics: DMM Persist, DR/ + Retaliation + balor's aura. .....Buff with Magic....Melee Attacks
Success:(speed=????) Tshern/Carnivore: Warmage - Tactics: 0-LA Outsider, Turn into a Dwarven Ancestor and fly through the encounter..... Buff with Magic and Alchemy.......Spell Casting only
also a link to the fight for each would be nice to see.... as there are a lot of pages to go thru to find each one... or at least the fights that won
:D
Every encounter was defeated in a single around save the dragon, who was left with single digit hp and pinned. And the wraith, which would die on the first round if I used Meyers first hit lands with incorp method.
Neither dino took any damage, or spent any time casting spells outside of combat.
That actually brings up something else I realized just recently...
The Monster of Legend and the Tauric templates don't change the reach of the base humanoid (the lizardfolk). It's a strange interaction actually, and I'm not sure how to handle it.
It's a large outsider, so you'd think it took a large glaive (20 ft. reach)
The templates say to maintain the creature's reach, which is as a Lizardfolk.
It doesn't make sense to force it to use a large weapon if that's supposed to give it a penalty for using a wrong-sized weapon. Conversely, it doesn't make sense to force the penalty for using a medium glaive as a large creature.
I'm willing to hear input from everyone on this.
I think the tauric creature becomes a large long creature, ie. 10ft space 5' reach. Even with a large glaive the reach would only be 10'.
My reasoning is you have basically created an oddball type of centaur. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Centaur Note its large size, but 5' reach.
You would use large weapons, but the reach would be 10' with a glaive instead of 20'. Notice the centaur example using a longsword for 2d6 damage at a range of 5'.
Domesticated Fleshrakers are not the standard for their type. It's all well and good that it turns out anything can be domesticated, but I don't think that's what the authors intended (I know, RAI is thin ice to be walkin' on). I think they meant domesticated like cows, dogs, chickens, etc. I'm not sure I would consider a circus lion to be "domesticated."
*EDIT* Oh ya. Fleshrakers can't use Tail and Bite in the same round, but you're free to do one with claws/pounce/whatever.
Domesticated fleshrakers are explicitly mentioned in the description of the critter in MM3. There is no way you can tell me that its not valid.
Re-reading the text on fleshraker you are 100% correct. It can do a claw, claw, tail, rake on a pounce. I'll have to redo some numbers the damage on the fleshrakers should be much higher than it already is. Something along the lines of 20 damage a round higher, each. I think its safe to say that nothing save the black dragon will live to see round 2. (Stupid acid immunity)
Domesticated fleshrakers are explicitly mentioned in the description of the critter in MM3. There is no way you can tell me that its not valid.
Adding on to this is the fact that Eberron halfings are specifically know for domesticating dinosaurs and using them. And we're not talking a few odd tribes of forest dwellers either:
In their homeland, halflings are nomads who ride domesticated dinosaurs across the wide plains.
To the halfings of the Plains the dinosaurs they bond with are more than just mounts. They are partners, providing the means to herd, hunt, travel and protect the tribe.
The only possible excuse at this point to not allow domesticated dinosaurs is that one has some personal stake in seeing that not allowed.
re: Death Armor
How do you know that is the final monster?
Because of the writeup...like the GM was giving hints saying 'soup up now so we don't have to reroll characters':
As you approach the building, you can't help but feel that your final test is near at hand...
A Human with Monkey Grip can use a Large Glaive as well, but it would only have the 10' reach of a Medium creature using an Extended-Reach weapon. Natural Reach (5'), Extended Reach (10')
The base creature above, Tauric wossname, has a 5' natural reach, thus a 10' extended reach. Yeah, it's weird.
I've seen combinations of abilities that allow a Medium creature to make use of a Gargantuan weapon. And the reach for attacking with that weapon is still the normal 5' for a normal melee weapon, 10' for a reach weapon, even if the physical weapon is 20' long. :P
i have a quick question.
How are you determining if a Build is overpowered?
What is the definition of Overpowered?
what has been done so far.... is various low-level gauntlets have been designed, which various builds have gone thru. but how does this show whether a build is overpowered?
i would like to suggest that it comes down to timing.... How quickly a Build can overcome an obstacle determines if it is overpowered... exa:
a Party of 5 characters comes up to a cave with a dragon .... the dragon notices the party and attacks... but a single Character beats it to the punch and singlehandedly defeats the dragon before the rest of the party even Acts.... that would tend to prove Overpoweredness.. especially if it occured that way with every encounter.. one character defeating the threat without needing the rest of the party to do anything
exa: if the same situation occured and the Character required 50 rounds .... then it would not be too overpowered(it would still be a Powerful build)
i think we need to track how long it takes for a build to defeat a challenge... and the methods used...exa(i did not check exactly how long these builds took.... but Tshern/carnivore was quickest, of these):
Success: (speed=????) PhraedrusXY:Fire Elf Wizard Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor)..... Buff with Magic....Melee Attacks and Breath Weapon
Success:(speed=????) Ikeren: DMM Cleric - Tactics: DMM Persist, DR/ + Retaliation + balor's aura. .....Buff with Magic....Melee Attacks
Success:(speed=????) Tshern/Carnivore: Warmage - Tactics: 0-LA Outsider, Turn into a Dwarven Ancestor and fly through the encounter..... Buff with Magic and Alchemy.......Spell Casting only
also a link to the fight for each would be nice to see.... as there are a lot of pages to go thru to find each one... or at least the fights that won
:D
Here are the run throughs for two builds that I dropped out here that should be success for the CR5 monster list mini-adventure with minticore+wraith+huge animated rug+giant constrictor snake+young black dragon:
Success:(speed=~29 Rounds, consumables= 0 gp) Gluttony: Level 5 (4 Cleric + 1 LA template Feral)
Success:(speed=~25 Rounds assuming he tries to kill everything since a couple are 'non-encounters', consumables=0 gp) Gurth: Level 5 (4 Dread Necromancer + 1 LA template Necropolitan)
I'm including surprise rounds as full rounds.
Interestingly enough, the fleshraker entry talks about that animal being domesticated, albeit by certain tribes, but the riding dog entry does not. If a person was inclined to get RAW-stupid, only the Horse actually says that it's domesticated, at least in the MM.
Dogs are domestic.
Everyone is right, as long as one WotC book says they're considered domesticated, by your rules for this thread, they're allowed and considered domesticated.
Actually no. Players do not control things like presence or location of NPCs, nor do they control weather, although both are listed in WoTC books. For a player to say that they journeyed to the halfling wilds to summon the fleshraker requires a lot of metagaming knowledge (or an impressive knowledge (whatever) roll) and a description of how the player gets there (gold piece cost at least) and back (gold piece cost at least) as these mini-adventures do not specify that they are occurring in (or near) that area.
From everything that I have heard, the fleshrakers who become domesticated (who are reared / trained by the halflings) are the exception to the normal fleshraker which is wild. Therefore, a domesticated fleshraker is not considered normal for its kind.
Now, the questions we can pose to CustServ should be as follows:
"In talking about applying the Warbeast template to an animal companion:
a) Is an animal companion riding dog considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
b) Is an animal companion fleshraker considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
c) It mentions in the description of fleshraker that certain halfling tribes domesticate fleshrakers. Is it possible for a druid to quest (or provide backstory) to go to the areas containing the halfling tribes, to then be able to perform the ritual to acquire a domesticated fleshraker as an animal companion.
d) Does natural bond offset the penalty that a single-classed druid has for a more powerful animal companion?"
I will email cust-serv these questions noon est tomorrow (giving time for people to suggest changes).
Also, Animal Growth is a level 4 spell, which is not allowed for level 5 characters.
Dogs are domestic.
No one is arguing that. You say dogs are domestic animals(though the SRD entry on dog also mentions wild dogs), but neither dog, nor riding dog mentions the fact that they are domesticated.
Actually no. Players do not control things like presence or location of NPCs, nor do they control weather, although both are listed in WoTC books. For a player to say that they journeyed to the halfling wilds to summon the fleshraker requires a lot of metagaming knowledge (or an impressive knowledge (whatever) roll) and a description of how the player gets there (gold piece cost at least) and back (gold piece cost at least) as these mini-adventures do not specify that they are occurring in (or near) that area.
Your points have nothing to do with this exercise. Suddenly pulling in DM fiat when convenient is not a good argument.
From everything that I have heard, the fleshrakers who become domesticated (who are reared / trained by the halflings) are the exception to the normal fleshraker which is wild. Therefore, a domesticated fleshraker is not considered normal for its kind.
Point 1. The "typical" line you continually refer to is only in reference to a 1st level druid's animal companion. In the line referring to being able to summon a more powerful companion at 4th level and above there is no qualifier. Is that enough for you to either get on with it or start conceding something about casters?
Point 2. You haven't read the text. Anything else is fairly irrelevant.
Now, the questions we can pose to CustServ should be as follows:
"In talking about applying the Warbeast template to an animal companion:
a) Is an animal companion riding dog considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
b) Is an animal companion fleshraker considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
c) It mentions in the description of fleshraker that certain halfling tribes domesticate fleshrakers. Is it possible for a druid to quest (or provide backstory) to go to the areas containing the halfling tribes, to then be able to perform the ritual to acquire a domesticated fleshraker as an animal companion.
d) Does natural bond offset the penalty that a single-classed druid has for a more powerful animal companion?"
I will email cust-serv these questions noon est tomorrow (giving time for people to suggest changes).
You don't typically like the responses you get from Cust Serv, so why keep going there? They don't have a lot of credibility anyway.
Sorry for the tone, but there have been over 2000 posts and no progress has been made. Meyer refuses to comment on anything except problems. Successful entrants are simply credited with success with no real mention of overpoweredness. When people are on topic and give reasons why, in general, casters are overpowered at all levels, he simply asks them to send their caster in to solo a dungeon, hardly a measure of power.
If you want to run a gauntlet thread, there are better boards than this.
-AS-
I could post some very twisted logic to gain a victory, and thus be overpowered, but everyone would call foul on it. They would be right to do so. If something seems off or too good, then it is time to question the tactic. That is one of the JOBS of the DM. He is supposed to question my interpretations.
There are many place in the rules where the designers give the final judgment to the DM. What is "normal for its kind?" That's less of a mechanical rule and more of a general direction. In other words, the DM decides the meaning of "normal for its kind" in his campaign.
Sorry, things have been quite busy here recently ... but I have time for this post
Dogs are domestic.
Actually no. Players do not control things like presence or location of NPCs, nor do they control weather, although both are listed in WoTC books. For a player to say that they journeyed to the halfling wilds to summon the fleshraker requires a lot of metagaming knowledge (or an impressive knowledge (whatever) roll) and a description of how the player gets there (gold piece cost at least) and back (gold piece cost at least) as these mini-adventures do not specify that they are occurring in (or near) that area.
Now, the questions we can pose to CustServ should be as follows:
"In talking about applying the Warbeast template to an animal companion:
a) Is an animal companion riding dog considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
b) Is an animal companion fleshraker considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
c) It mentions in the description of fleshraker that certain halfling tribes domesticate fleshrakers. Is it possible for a druid to quest (or provide backstory) to go to the areas containing the halfling tribes, to then be able to perform the ritual to acquire a domesticated fleshraker as an animal companion.
d) Does natural bond offset the penalty that a single-classed druid has for a more powerful animal companion?"
I will email cust-serv these questions noon est tomorrow (giving time for people to suggest changes).
Also, Animal Growth is a level 4 spell, which is not allowed for level 5 characters.
Do whatever you want, but nobody is going to take you at all seriously.
Rules for Character Creation
Any WOTC book can be used ...
The fact that people have shown you, multiple times, that one of the "Any WOTC book" has been used -- multiple books in fact -- and does show domesticated dinosaurs, leave only your attempts to alter the rules to suit your predetermined outcome.
Dogs are domesticated? Since you're obviously not refering to the MM text -- and good thing in this case -- lets go with common knowledge of dogs. Dogs are domesticated, but dogs are also undomesticated. In fact, there are more undomesticated species of dogs than there are domesticated; Grey Wolf (species) and Dingo (sub-species) are undomesticated v. Domestic Dog (sub-species) is domesticated. Now, the stats for Dog (not Riding Dog) also mention that other canines, such as the African Wild Dog, Coyote and Jackal. There are even more dogs (caninae) that are not domesticated, such as the Asiatic Wild Dog, the Bush Dog, and the Short Eared Dog.
But wait, I know what's next. "I'm only talking about the Domestic Dog, so they're not undomesticated."
From everything that I have heard, the fleshrakers who become domesticated (who are reared / trained by the halflings) are the exception to the normal fleshraker which is wild. Therefore, a domesticated fleshraker is not considered normal for its kind.
From everything I have heard, an animal with a template are the exception to the normal, non-templated version of the animal. Therefore, a templated animal not considered normal for its kind.
Part of the game is having the DM accept or reject your ideas and interpretations.
...
There are many place in the rules where the designers give the final judgment to the DM. What is "normal for its kind?" That's less of a mechanical rule and more of a general direction. In other words, the DM decides the meaning of "normal for its kind" in his campaign.
And... Meyer is DM of this thread?
Got it. And if so, thread vacated.
And... Meyer is DM of this thread?
Got it. And if so, thread vacated.
Before vacating (if you really intend to), please let me know if you think this is bogus or works:
Draken tedious final boss battle. As mentioned I was doing this sort of backwards. Seeing if the character could even defeat the final boss before bothering to see how he got to that point. Figured it was pointless for me to have yet another character that could reach the boss only to die. (it is a 6th level character as a build for 5th would not have the needed protections and persisted attacks).
Sorry, things have been quite busy here recently ... but I have time for this post
Dogs are domestic.
Actually no. Players do not control things like presence or location of NPCs, nor do they control weather, although both are listed in WoTC books. For a player to say that they journeyed to the halfling wilds to summon the fleshraker requires a lot of metagaming knowledge (or an impressive knowledge (whatever) roll) and a description of how the player gets there (gold piece cost at least) and back (gold piece cost at least) as these mini-adventures do not specify that they are occurring in (or near) that area.
From everything that I have heard, the fleshrakers who become domesticated (who are reared / trained by the halflings) are the exception to the normal fleshraker which is wild. Therefore, a domesticated fleshraker is not considered normal for its kind.
Now, the questions we can pose to CustServ should be as follows:
"In talking about applying the Warbeast template to an animal companion:
a) Is an animal companion riding dog considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
b) Is an animal companion fleshraker considered domestic enough so that this template can be applied through training after being summoned?
c) It mentions in the description of fleshraker that certain halfling tribes domesticate fleshrakers. Is it possible for a druid to quest (or provide backstory) to go to the areas containing the halfling tribes, to then be able to perform the ritual to acquire a domesticated fleshraker as an animal companion.
d) Does natural bond offset the penalty that a single-classed druid has for a more powerful animal companion?"
I will email cust-serv these questions noon est tomorrow (giving time for people to suggest changes).
Also, Animal Growth is a level 4 spell, which is not allowed for level 5 characters.
"Some wild tribes of forest dwellers have been known to
domesticate fleshrakers to serve as guards." is unambiguous, and there are no further restrictions or qualifiers on the statement elsewhere in the description. Druids have been known to associate with wild tribes of forest dwellers, in fact thats probably the #1 source of druids, isn't it?
Another thing, "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar
with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate
forest could not become a polar bear." Pot, kettle, I see no gp expenditure or backstory on your ranger to justify this "metagaming". Please remove fleshraker from the build unless you email custserv for permission.
Their habitat is temperate forests, they're domesticated, they're raw, there it is. Can't disallow it without a rules cite.
Part of the game is having the DM accept or reject your ideas and interpretations.
I could post some very twisted logic to gain a victory, and thus be overpowered, but everyone would call foul on it. They would be right to do so. If something seems off or too good, then it is time to question the tactic. That is one of the JOBS of the DM. He is supposed to question my interpretations.
There are many place in the rules where the designers give the final judgment to the DM. What is "normal for its kind?" That's less of a mechanical rule and more of a general direction. In other words, the DM decides the meaning of "normal for its kind" in his campaign.
Problem is Meyer is hardly impartial in this instance, a requirement for a DM who's judging which character is more powerful. If he's the DM, he's a really crappy one who's giving his DMPC special abilities and then rationalizing why the players aren't allowed to get the same.
Before vacating (if you really intend to)
If it comes down to Meyer being deemed DM of this thread and getting to make any sort of decision about these subjects, then yes I will. It does no good to even contribute to threads in which the OP is both setting all the rules, making all the judgements, and declaring all the outcomes. Especially when it boils down to making judgements for his entrant, and when a different entrant uses the same tactic it becomes disallowed.
, please let me know if you think this is bogus or works:
Draken tedious final boss battle. As mentioned I was doing this sort of backwards. Seeing if the character could even defeat the final boss before bothering to see how he got to that point. Figured it was pointless for me to have yet another character that could reach the boss only to die. (it is a 6th level character as a build for 5th would not have the needed protections and persisted attacks).
If you were playing a character with Int 11 and Wis 12, after how many round of being blinded would you revert to full defense in the expectation that the blindness would eventually wear off?
After that point, how much damage does Draken do to The Tauric Strangeness, and is that still enough to overcome its fast healing?
If not, what other methods can he use to defeat it, still taking into consideration the previous four encounters and the resources used on those?
Edit: The Tauric Strangeness lasts past a time when some spells wear off.
Such as the 5 minute buffs: Silverbeard, Blessed Aim, Cat's Grace, Scroll of Fly. What happens to your tactics then?
Other than that, it appears to work. Nice job, albeit a very strange use of persistent spell!
And... Meyer is DM of this thread?
Got it. And if so, thread vacated.
No joke.
http://www.emass-web.com/
This doesn't tell you where Blessing of Bahamut is from but for future reference if you go to dynamic sheets it will compile a list of spells for you and put them into PDF. Save you some time flipping through 300000000000000000 books.
c) It mentions in the description of fleshraker that certain halfling tribes domesticate fleshrakers. Is it possible for a druid to quest (or provide backstory) to go to the areas containing the halfling tribes, to then be able to perform the ritual to acquire a domesticated fleshraker as an animal companion.
You clearly have no idea what is being talked about, and very, very clearly have not read any of the source material we're referencing. If you have read the quotes we've provided, you've done that poorly and have muddle them as well.
Halfings are not, ever, in any form, mentioned in the fleshraker entry.
The halflings from Eberron are not in any form "certain halfling tribes" but the defacto standard of the setting. You cannot find a page in the EbCS that mentions halfings and does not mention their dinosaurs. I could go on for pages about the halflings and their dinosaurs, but that would violate the CoC with the sheer volume of material that would be quoted.
The books aren't organized alphabetically, which is kind of annoying, but aside from that, very solid.
Now, where was Blessing of Bahumet from? It's not in that list, and when I look at that list, I can't pick out any missing books off the top of my head.
Fascinating. That is a good toy. Thanks for pointing that out.
The books aren't organized alphabetically, which is kind of annoying, but aside from that, very solid.
Now, where was Blessing of Bahumet from? It's not in that list, and when I look at that list, I can't pick out any missing books off the top of my head.
This page says Spell Compendium
I guess it works better than Channelled Divine Shield because of a Standard Action cast time, but for the purposes of persisting, isn't it precisely inferior to the same level, Channelled Divine Shield? Seems an odd choice for an archivist character using persist.
And... Meyer is DM of this thread?
Got it. And if so, thread vacated.
I can see why you would say that but I have to say this thread has been truly enlightening. Would anyone want to take over the hosting of this test in another thread? Or even starting a similar thread for the future? I mean this is kind of important and just because Meyer can't be non bias and he can't decide it either doesn't work for him or anyone can do it, doesn't seem like a good enough reason to end this now.
I can see why you would say that but I have to say this thread has been truly enlightening. Would anyone want to take over the hosting of this test in another thread? Or even starting a similar thread for the future? I mean this is kind of important and just because Meyer can't be non bias and he can't decide it either doesn't work for him or anyone can do it, doesn't seem like a good enough reason to end this now.
Yeah, the excercise itself is interesting. Take some characters, put a series of encounters, and see who can survive it.
And ideal thread would have a 'test' for each level, 1 to 20, four encounters each test. It'd be an interesting challenge.
I can see why you would say that but I have to say this thread has been truly enlightening. Would anyone want to take over the hosting of this test in another thread? Or even starting a similar thread for the future? I mean this is kind of important and just because Meyer can't be non bias and he can't decide it either doesn't work for him or anyone can do it, doesn't seem like a good enough reason to end this now.
Hey, I am willing to step down as DM and see someone else take up the mantle very easily. (This would require a new thread, so that the new DM can post the rules/decisions/outcomes/etc)
For those people who are saying I am allowing my DMPC one thing and disallowing the same things in others ...
I am saying that, without something to the contrary from CustServ, I think that fleshrakers are normally wild and that dogs (st. bernards for instance) are domestic. Period. If the other character with an animal companion had a dog, there would be no contention. This is not allowing one thing for me and another for another character. I offered to email customer service like has been done in the past and surprisingly enough, people objected very strongly to that.
The Eberron setting (Telenta Plains) talks about dinosaurs, and halflings riding them, but the dinosaurs mentioned are not fleshrakers (at least not in the ECS). If someone can point me to the Eberron book people are talking about where it says otherwise I would appreciate it.
i have a quick question.
How are you determining if a Build is overpowered?
What is the definition of Overpowered?
what has been done so far.... is various low-level gauntlets have been designed, which various builds have gone thru. but how does this show whether a build is overpowered?
I would like to see someone putting together an encounter which is basically a wandering monster ... I think it would be highly enlightening to see how builds work when they are not going nova (spending multiple rounds to get things just right before entering the dungeon).
also a link to the fight for each would be nice to see.... as there are a lot of pages to go thru to find each one... or at least the fights that won
Grin ... that's why I suggested that people link their characters and fights together.
Point 1. The "typical" line you continually refer to is only in reference to a 1st level druid's animal companion. In the line referring to being able to summon a more powerful companion at 4th level and above there is no qualifier. Is that enough for you to either get on with it or start conceding something about casters?
If the "typical" line is not applicable to the rest of the animal companions, does this mean that a non-1st level druid could summon advanced versions of their animal companion without penalty?
You don't typically like the responses you get from Cust Serv, so why keep going there? They don't have a lot of credibility anyway.
Regardless of whether or not I like the responses, we have always followed them. Even for the ones that rules against me.
Sorry for the tone, but there have been over 2000 posts and no progress has been made. Meyer refuses to comment on anything except problems. Successful entrants are simply credited with success with no real mention of overpoweredness. When people are on topic and give reasons why, in general, casters are overpowered at all levels, he simply asks them to send their caster in to solo a dungeon, hardly a measure of power.
I have commented multiple times that both the druid+fleshraker and the DMM cleric were overpowered ... most of the other builds (exception of the otherworldly+alter self) I was not terribly impressed with.
If you want to run a gauntlet thread, there are better boards than this.
-AS-
But there are no better boards to look for Optimized (overpowered) Characters.
"Some wild tribes of forest dwellers have been known to domesticate fleshrakers to serve as guards." is unambiguous, and there are no further restrictions or qualifiers on the statement elsewhere in the description. Druids have been known to associate with wild tribes of forest dwellers, in fact thats probably the #1 source of druids, isn't it?
If that is what the text says, then adding "Stayed in area of forest where wild tribes of forest dwellers domesticated fleshrakers. There is where I got Pouncy" would suffice. Just like the druid who was wearing metal armor needed to add "worships whomever" to become legal, etc ...
Another thing, "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear." Pot, kettle, I see no gp expenditure or backstory on your ranger to justify this "metagaming". Please remove fleshraker from the build unless you email custserv for permission.
You misunderstood ... the metagaming was knowing where to look to find domesticated fleshrakers, not knowing the form of a fleshraker.
You misunderstood ... the metagaming was knowing where to look to find domesticated fleshrakers, not knowing the form of a fleshraker.
Explain to me how its metagaming to come from a setting where fleshrakers are used as guard animals and chose to emulate that form in combat.
That is a rock solid character concept especially compared to "I'm an orc that has random unassociated classes based on the fact that they give bonus feats."
Hey, I am willing to step down as DM and see someone else take up the mantle very easily. (This would require a new thread, so that the new DM can post the rules/decisions/outcomes/etc)
For those people who are saying I am allowing my DMPC one thing and disallowing the same things in others ...
I am saying that, without something to the contrary from CustServ, I think that fleshrakers are normally wild and that dogs (st. bernards for instance) are domestic. Period. If the other character with an animal companion had a dog, there would be no contention. This is not allowing one thing for me and another for another character. I offered to email customer service like has been done in the past and surprisingly enough, people objected very strongly to that.
The Eberron setting (Telenta Plains) talks about dinosaurs, and halflings riding them, but the dinosaurs mentioned are not fleshrakers (at least not in the ECS). If someone can point me to the Eberron book people are talking about where it says otherwise I would appreciate it.
I think you are miss understanding what the problem with your stance in this thread. You see your self as a DM. The rest of us want you to realize that this doesn't need a DM, it just needs a Host. Trust me as a whole we know the rules a lot better then you by yourself. We didn't ask you to step down, we asked you to be fair.
Have you ever had a DM run a PC in a game where you were just a player?
If you have then maybe you might understand that the DM in this instance may allow himself to do things that the players themselves aren't allowed to do. This won't work out well normally because anything the DM does should be able to duplicated by the players in the long run. This is what we are trying to get you to realize. You are making a bad choice by letting yourself do something that the rest of us aren't going to be allowed to do. It doesn't matter what your reasoning, when the full list of posters who have taken part should have say in what can be done and what can't.
Whoa, one sec, where's Bahumet's blessing from?
Found it in the Spell Compendium. 3rd level paladin spell. Gives the DR reduction that favorable sacrifice gives without that terrible gold cost.
Sorry for the repeat if someone else replied.
3rd level paladin spell, DR 10/magic for 1 round/level.
I guess it works better than Channelled Divine Shield because of a Standard Action cast time, but for the purposes of persisting, isn't it precisely inferior to the same level, Channelled Divine Shield? Seems an odd choice for an archivist character using persist.
I'll have to lookup channelled divine shield. Saw that bahamut spell and thought it was a nice cheap alternative to favorable sacrifice (minus the energy resistances
).I am saying that, without something to the contrary from CustServ, I think that fleshrakers are normally wild and that dogs (st. bernards for instance) are domestic.
A St. bernard that was raised in the wild, in fact any dog that was raised in the wild would not be domesticated in any form. A dog is not automatically a domestic animal. Where do you think wild dogs come from if "dogs are domestic?" Did someone train them to be wild?
Again, dogs are not normally domestic. No animal is normally domestic. You are so completely wrong on this that I really can't put it into any terms that's not going to be an insult to you.
The Eberron setting (Telenta Plains) talks about dinosaurs, and halflings riding them, but the dinosaurs mentioned are not fleshrakers (at least not in the ECS). If someone can point me to the Eberron book people are talking about where it says otherwise I would appreciate it.
If it exists in D&D, it has a place in Eberron.
Which doesn't matter. Because we know that domesticated Fleshrakers exist and are legal as druid companions.
Your "opinion" that the number of domestic fleshrakers is less than wild ones, or so disproportionally small that a druid cannot have one is utter unsupportable from a rules standpoint, and you clearly know this.
Hey, I am willing to step down as DM and see someone else take up the mantle very easily. (This would require a new thread, so that the new DM can post the rules/decisions/outcomes/etc)
For those people who are saying I am allowing my DMPC one thing and disallowing the same things in others ...
I am saying that, without something to the contrary from CustServ, I think that fleshrakers are normally wild and that dogs (st. bernards for instance) are domestic. Period. If the other character with an animal companion had a dog, there would be no contention. This is not allowing one thing for me and another for another character. I offered to email customer service like has been done in the past and surprisingly enough, people objected very strongly to that.
The Eberron setting (Telenta Plains) talks about dinosaurs, and halflings riding them, but the dinosaurs mentioned are not fleshrakers (at least not in the ECS). If someone can point me to the Eberron book people are talking about where it says otherwise I would appreciate it.
Fleshrakers are listed in an Eberron book, in the section which gives the eberron names for real species of dinosaurs and monster manual species of dinosaurs, doesn't much matter since the core mm book allows domesticated fleshrakers, and fleshraker animal companions. Modify your rules or explain the exception, this is no different than a level 5 rogue hunting down a pao caster, or an orc hunting down a specific magic cloak.
If the "typical" line is not applicable to the rest of the animal companions, does this mean that a non-1st level druid could summon advanced versions of their animal companion without penalty?
This is the reason things have devolved so far and so fast. This is not a board for weepy prepubescent boys or illiterates. If you would like this thread to continue instead of becoming a huge thread of flames against you, be as accepting as the other posters have been.
From the beginning no one has cared what kind of non-caster you build, even if it uses class variants, etc. Initially, no one made any sort of comment about your build(even though it had issues). You, though, prefer to nitpick tiny mechanical details of a character instead of looking over its actual performance or even trying to gauge level of "overpoweredness".
This is the Char Op board. This is not a board about running gauntlets, etc. I assume you also don't know that you aren't getting a ton of actual CO people posting here(though there are some), so you are not really getting the information/input you are after anyway.
-AS-
This is the Char Op board. This is not a board about running gauntlets, etc.
The problem is people can't prove spellcasters are overpowered at low levels.
People said :
spellcasters are overpowered, look at wizard 1-20 or druid 1-20...
Go back to beginning of this thread and re-read all. To prove spellcasters are overpowered, people have to say something else than cast glitterdust and encounter is finished.
That 's why this thread turned to running gauntlets.
And from this we have seen some powerful builds and only 2 overpowered builds : DMM cleric (with access to lot of money) and druid with access to fleshraker.
If you can prove spellcasters are overpowered at low levels, without running gauntlets, do it. This will interest lot of people here.
Some people use the word overpowered when they should use the word powerful or strong.
Most of regular posters of Co boards said it at beginning :
spellcasters are not overpowered at low levels, they are powerful. Overpoweress comes later.
Non-caster builds were posted to show that non-casters can compete with spellcasters at low levels and do the same thing. With this builds, you can compare and see which build is overpowered and which is just powerful.
If you don't care about them, it's your point of view but how can you prove spellcasters are overpowered without looking at what non-casters can do ?
The problem is people can't prove spellcasters are overpowered at low levels.
People said :
spellcasters are overpowered, look at wizard 1-20 or druid 1-20...
Go back to beginning of this thread and re-read all. To prove spellcasters are overpowered, people have to say something else than cast glitterdust and encounter is finished.
That 's why this thread turned to running gauntlets.
And from this we have seen some powerful builds and only 2 overpowered builds : DMM cleric (with access to lot of money) and druid with access to fleshraker.
If you can prove spellcasters are overpowered at low levels, without running gauntlets, do it. This will interest lot of people here.
Some people use the word overpowered when they should use the word powerful or strong.
Most of regular posters of Co boards said it at beginning :
spellcasters are not overpowered at low levels, they are powerful. Overpoweress comes later.
Non-caster builds were posted to show that non-casters can compete with spellcasters at low levels and do the same thing. With this builds, you can compare and see which build is overpowered and which is just powerful.
If you don't care about them, it's your point of view but how can you prove spellcasters are overpowered without looking at what non-casters can do ?
Its hard to prove a level of overpoweredness when the only task is killing a bunch of people in a row. Meyer has never given a real definition of overpowered, so it makes it difficult to prove.
Spellcasting inherently offers versatility and through it power. With 1 nights rest, a caster can do completely different things on different days, which most non-casters cannot do. In addition, at least 3 of the major casters come equipped with a helper(familiar/companion) who can fulfill the role of another party member(familiar for scout; AC for fighter).
I have been reading this thread since the beginning and if you go back and look through it, you will see that Meyer came in asking for some builds. When he couldn't understand well enough how they would function, this gauntlet idea came about. This scenario doesn't represent actual gameplay in anyway or offer any real testable method through which to determine power. It has simply become a long thread that does not even possess the possibility to demonstrate that anything is overpowered. While you can build a nice gauntlet contestant, that character is dropped into a world with no motivations, no past, no future and no party.
The original question is valid and important, no doubt, but how does a gauntlet display anything but combat prowess(and in a very narrowminded, simple way)?
-AS-
This thread has also convinced me that a Bard's overpoweredness kicks in at exactly level 7, that's the point where the Bard gets glibness. I couldn't figure out how to run a bard through the gauntlet without that spell.
If it comes down to Meyer being deemed DM of this thread and getting to make any sort of decision about these subjects, then yes I will. It does no good to even contribute to threads in which the OP is both setting all the rules, making all the judgements, and declaring all the outcomes. Especially when it boils down to making judgements for his entrant, and when a different entrant uses the same tactic it becomes disallowed.
If you were playing a character with Int 11 and Wis 12, after how many round of being blinded would you revert to full defense in the expectation that the blindness would eventually wear off?
After that point, how much damage does Draken do to The Tauric Strangeness, and is that still enough to overcome its fast healing?
If not, what other methods can he use to defeat it, still taking into consideration the previous four encounters and the resources used on those?
Edit: The Tauric Strangeness lasts past a time when some spells wear off.
Such as the 5 minute buffs: Silverbeard, Blessed Aim, Cat's Grace, Scroll of Fly. What happens to your tactics then?
Other than that, it appears to work. Nice job, albeit a very strange use of persistent spell!
Alright. There have been minor changes to Draken as he was tuned up to try and make the most of his spells.
Edit: link to draken for ease: Draken (Level 6 Character)
Edit: planar challenge link for ease: Otto's Planar Challenge
Randomized the planar doors:
1) White - Success
2) Green - Success
3) Red - Success
4) Blue - Success
Final Boss) Success
Resoures consumed during this: 3 charges from wand of lesser restoration (made by a paladin so 2nd level caster and 1st level spell), 1 charge from wand of blinding spittle, 750 gp for materials used in casting favorable sacrifice, one scroll of fly.
Fairly econimical victory so treasure should easily perpetuate future victories.
Combat Details
Soup Up
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (use DMM to persist), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly (5 min), darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower 2 * 6 * 1.5 fire damage ith touches = 18 fire), favorable sacrifice (750 gp in components to cast - 5 hours)
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
extended shield of faith (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
mage armor (5 hours)
persisted bite of wererat cast (all day)
persisted darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC=35=10 + 2[deflection w/ shield of faith] + 6 [Natural w/ alter self troglodyte] + 5 [dex w/ bite of wererat] + 3 [Natural enhancement w/ bite of wererat] + 4 [mage armor] + 3 [steel shield w/ +1 enhancement] + 2 [sacred w/ silverbeard]
Hit Points=49.5 (w/ +2 enhanced con from bite of wererat
Fort Save (only save that matters in this adventure)=+11
Ranged TH (weapon finesse from bite of wererat): 9=2[base] + 5[dex] + 2[blessed aim]
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (use DMM to persist), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly (5 min), darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower 2 * 6 * 1.5 fire damage ith touches = 18 fire), favorable sacrifice (750 gp in components to cast - 5 hours)
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
extended shield of faith (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
mage armor (5 hours)
persisted bite of wererat cast (all day)
persisted darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC=35=10 + 2[deflection w/ shield of faith] + 6 [Natural w/ alter self troglodyte] + 5 [dex w/ bite of wererat] + 3 [Natural enhancement w/ bite of wererat] + 4 [mage armor] + 3 [steel shield w/ +1 enhancement] + 2 [sacred w/ silverbeard]
Hit Points=49.5 (w/ +2 enhanced con from bite of wererat
Fort Save (only save that matters in this adventure)=+11
Ranged TH (weapon finesse from bite of wererat): 9=2[base] + 5[dex] + 2[blessed aim]
Actually Saru, any character that can get through the gauntlet at all is by definition overpowered. These Gauntlets should be a fair match for an entire party. So far the results have pretty much fit the expectations of the community, CoDzilla rocked the house, wizards did well, and a very few, very min-maxed, noncasters were able to compete.
This thread has also convinced me that a Bard's overpoweredness kicks in at exactly level 7, that's the point where the Bard gets glibness. I couldn't figure out how to run a bard through the gauntlet without that spell.
This thread has convinced me of the following generalities (my opinions):
a) druids are the most powerful at these levels because of their great wildshape ability to augment combat abilities along with a well chosen animal companion. Spells help further this.
a) clerics and derivatives (archivist as example) are powerful at these lower levels because they can compliment their casting with melee and can make great use of DMM with persistence
c) arcane casters can do well, but some of their shortcomings come into play during these lower levels.
d) the best muggles are ones that use consumables to do what some of the clerics, druids, arcane casters do.
These comments are with respect to characters of level 5-7. I think the arena changes some in higher level play.
As with generalities, there will be outliers.
Due to the complexity of clerics, druids, arcane casters, it is very easy to misread something, apply a rule incorrectly, miss a game balancing errata, etc. This makes it easy to create a reject character. Though due to the complexity there become interesting stackable things which is where some of the strengths seem to come from.
Just stating my thoughts...not meant as a flame so please keep any replies as rational.
Anything that wins with "I fly out of range/reach and win", no matter the status as caster or non-caster, no matter the challenge, deserves the same non-response.
The problem is people can't prove spellcasters are overpowered at low levels.
I wrote a technically 1st level challenge that was nothing but spellcasters. The estimated CR by the only person that went through it was 5. This should show that indeed spellcasters can be overpowered at low levels.
[post=14658949]Kobolds Are Harmless?[/post]
Try running a 1st level party (with no casters) through it and see what happens.
I didn't bother checking the latest fight.
Anything that wins with "I fly out of range/reach and win", no matter the status as caster or non-caster, no matter the challenge, deserves the same non-response.
So if the statagey of staying on ground level worked (eliminate fly?) then you would look? The final boss and swarm fights draken could not just fly away from.
Still, with AC 35, the only one that can hit the character is the final boss. For the others, if 'forced' to be on the ground blinding spittle strategy like with the final boss would be employed. I believe it is clear success.
I didn't bother checking the latest fight.
Anything that wins with "I fly out of range/reach and win", no matter the status as caster or non-caster, no matter the challenge, deserves the same non-response.
OK - here is the battle when not using strategy to fly up and out of reach. Fly is still used, but now it really is simply for giving the slow moving character a little pep in his step.
Strategy:
- Blinding Spittle to blind things
- High AC because of:
- persisted bite of wererat (unique to archivist at this level of character I think - persisting a divine druid spell).
- misc spells (silverbeard, shield of faith, mage armor)
- alter self - troglodyte
- persisted bite of wererat (unique to archivist at this level of character I think - persisting a divine druid spell).
- DMM Persisted+Sudden empowered+maximized darkfire to inflict fire damage from 120 ft range with touch (or melee touch if necessary) all day long. (could do the same with ice axe as it is on his list as well, but prefers to be able to do things at a range...).
- Favorable Sacrifice for good measure to have DR 10/magic and elemental resistances.
Edit: link to draken for ease: Draken (Level 6 Character)
Edit: planar challenge link for ease: Otto's Planar Challenge
Randomized the planar doors:
1) White - Success
2) Green - Success
3) Red - Success
4) Blue - Success
Final Boss) Success
Resoures consumed during this: 3 charges from wand of lesser restoration (made by a paladin so 2nd level caster and 1st level spell), 6 charges from wand of blinding spittle, 750 gp for materials used in casting favorable sacrifice, one scroll of fly.
Fairly economical victory so treasure should easily fuel future victories.
Combat Details
Soup Up
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (use DMM to persist), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly (5 min), darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower 2 * 6 * 1.5 fire damage ith touches = 18 fire), favorable sacrifice (750 gp in components to cast - 5 hours)
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
extended shield of faith (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
mage armor (5 hours)
persisted bite of wererat cast (all day)
persisted darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC=35=10 + 2[deflection w/ shield of faith] + 6 [Natural w/ alter self troglodyte] + 5 [dex w/ bite of wererat] + 3 [Natural enhancement w/ bite of wererat] + 4 [mage armor] + 3 [steel shield w/ +1 enhancement] + 2 [sacred w/ silverbeard]
Hit Points=49.5 (w/ +2 enhanced con from bite of wererat
Fort Save (only save that matters in this adventure)=+11
Ranged TH (weapon finesse from bite of wererat): 9=2[base] + 5[dex] + 2[blessed aim]
Typical Memorized (Archivist):
1st: silverbeard x 2 (5 min), mage armor, conviction x 1 (50 min), remove scent (50 min)
2nd: extended blessed aim (10 min), bite of the wererat (use DMM to persist), alter self (50 min), extended shield of faith (10 min)
3rd: fly (5 min), darkfire (use DMM to Persist, and sudden maximize+empower 2 * 6 * 1.5 fire damage ith touches = 18 fire), favorable sacrifice (750 gp in components to cast - 5 hours)
Entering battle:
silverbeard cast (5 min)
extended blessed aim cast (10 min)
extended shield of faith (10 min)
conviction cast (50 min)
remove scent cast (50 min)
favorable sacrifice (5 hours)
mage armor (5 hours)
persisted bite of wererat cast (all day)
persisted darkfire cast (use DMM to Persist and sudden empower+maximize) (all day)
alter self (50 min) - Alter to be Torglodyte
fly (5 min)
AC=35=10 + 2[deflection w/ shield of faith] + 6 [Natural w/ alter self troglodyte] + 5 [dex w/ bite of wererat] + 3 [Natural enhancement w/ bite of wererat] + 4 [mage armor] + 3 [steel shield w/ +1 enhancement] + 2 [sacred w/ silverbeard]
Hit Points=49.5 (w/ +2 enhanced con from bite of wererat
Fort Save (only save that matters in this adventure)=+11
Ranged TH (weapon finesse from bite of wererat): 9=2[base] + 5[dex] + 2[blessed aim]
I wrote a technically 1st level challenge that was nothing but spellcasters. The estimated CR by the only person that went through it was 5. This should show that indeed spellcasters can be overpowered at low levels.
[post=14658949]Kobolds Are Harmless?[/post]
Try running a 1st level party (with no casters) through it and see what happens.
Ghoul Glyphs are not CR1, and multple of them increase the CR.
I didn't bother checking the latest fight.
Anything that wins with "I fly out of range/reach and win", no matter the status as caster or non-caster, no matter the challenge, deserves the same non-response.
Funny, because I always tought that was the basis of the "overpowereness" of casters: put on yourself a thousand diferent diferent defensive spells to be almost untouchable and then shoot things untill your enemy falls dead.
Ghoul Glyphs are not CR1, and multple of them increase the CR.
The Ghoul Glyphs are spells, not traps. One of the spellcasting kobolds is capable of casting it and used it to reinforce the defenses. Kobolds have a challenge level equal to their character levels -2.
So the challenge is technically CR 1. In reality I would put it higher, but if a spellcaster intelligently using their spells then increases the challenge level to above what you would get without the spellcaster. Then the overpoweredness has been demonstrated.
The Ghoul Glyphs are spells, not traps. One of the spellcasting kobolds is capable of casting it and used it to reinforce the defenses. Kobolds have a challenge level equal to their character levels -2.
So the challenge is technically CR 1. In reality I would put it higher, but if a spellcaster intelligently using their spells then increases the challenge level to above what you would get without the spellcaster. Then the overpoweredness has been demonstrated.
The EL of the encounter is increased by the Ghoul Glyphs, just like a noncaster building a wall/hole/etc can increase the EL of an encounter.
OK - here is the battle when not using strategy to fly up and out of reach. Fly is still used, but now it really is simply for giving the slow moving character a little pep in his step.
I had no doubt that the character would win. But at this level the vast majority of encounters can be won with levitate and a bow. That only shows that ground-based encounters can be won with non-ground-based strategy, not that the class being used is over-, under-, or just-right-powered. If it shows nothing, then it gets no comment.
Much the same as "the will-o-wisp and I bypass each other" doesn't actually show success against that series of encounters.
The EL of the encounter is increased by the Ghoul Glyphs, just like a noncaster building a wall/hole/etc can increase the EL of an encounter.
Can be argued either way. You don't increase the EL of an encounter because as a caster has some of his buff spells on already. A cleric with a persisted Divine Might isn't higher EL than normal. And there's nothing about spells running in DMG for increasing EL.
What I do get into is your claim that Kobolds count as a CR of Character level -3, however, this is only true for NPC classes. (It says so in the SRD, and I don't see anything in Races of the Dragon suggesting otherwise.) A Kobold Sorcerer 1 will be CR 1 as per the monster improvement rules which can be seen here.
I'm sure the Kobolds will still win in the end, but lets make it slightly more fair. ;)
*Deleted for stupidity*
Quoting:
Challenge Rating
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
Edit: Deleted it before I could reply
You could always use the well-known (and abused) Adept 3 Kobolds as CR1, which will probably wipe the floor with any Lvl 1 character.
Can be argued either way. You don't increase the EL of an encounter because as a caster has some of his buff spells on already. A cleric with a persisted Divine Might isn't higher EL than normal. And there's nothing about spells running in DMG for increasing EL.
A cleric 5 is CR 5.
A cleric 5 with the deathbound and evil domains and some nasty big zombified monsters under his control is technically also CR 5, but will wipe the floor against any but the best optimized lv5 guys. And when I mean wipe I mean that even the druid and the fleshraker are running for cover.
A cleric 5 is CR 5.
A cleric 5 with the deathbound and evil domains and some nasty big zombified monsters under his control is technically also CR 5, but will wipe the floor against any but the best optimized lv5 guys. And when I mean wipe I mean that even the druid and the fleshraker are running for cover.
No, the zombie would have its own CR, grant XP, and increase the EL. It doesn't matter that the cleric controls it. It is a separate creature, not a temporary spell effect like a summoned monster.
@ solbergb,
I noticed something odd Did you perhaps means oil. Also where actally is that item found?
Oil of magic stone, 50gp, based on PHB formulas for 1st level cleric/druid spells. Also found on the DMG potion table.
Mostly a really good job.
Swarm:
As a regenerating creature, does the swarm still normally deal its damage, distraction, and poison even when its non-lethal damage sustained is greater than its current hit points?
A swarm disperses when it is killed (per SRD), but since this creature regenerates, it's not dead.
Swarms reduced to nonlethal disperse. SRD:
" A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage."
What is unclear is whether it's in a form where I can burn it, or whether I won the challenge by defeating it with nonlethal. Pretty sure I could adjust the behavior via readied actions to burn it as it "becomes active" though.
Bela charged with a flail, so was adjacent to the swarm. The swarm was in the horse's space and only needed to 5 ft. to engulf Bela, and has a space of 10 ft. This means it was in the horse's space (10 ft.) and moved to engulf both Bela and the horse (taking two of its spaces for the horse, one for bela).
Not sure I understand the issue. In prior round he translocated out of range of the swarm, then he charged, got the hit, and got the AOO as it entered his square. It does not matter if it 5' steps or uses more movement, swarms always provoke when engulfing. If I've missed the point of this query let me know.
Tauric:
Bela hit points: 48, then 69, then hit for 48 (down to 21). I missed where/why it changed from 58 (as the base character has). I'm guessing I overlooked something, so show me the error of my ways.
Hitpoints shifting up 21 points means I raged in the prior round. He has reckless rage, which adds +6 constitution, he's level 7.
When it full attacks, such as on the round it dies, does this instead:
Attack w/ glaive hit (1615) for 2d8+15 (24)
Attack w/ glaive hit (1690) for 2d8+15 (24)
Attack goo (automatically scraping it off)
5 ft. step
Attack w/ claw hit (1770) for 1d6+5 (8.5)
Attack w/ claw hit (1850) for 1d6+5 (8.5)
Attack w/ bite miss (1925)
Bela's hit points after that...?
Tanglefoot bags don't work that way. "scraping off" only helps for if you are "stuck". It doesn't ever remove the half movement. For that you need to have it wear off, or universal solvent.
Here's the relevant rules text. In particular, read the final sentence. Half speed = no 5' step.
"A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. "
Time or universal solvent is the only way out. Or something like Freedom of Movement.
"The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately."
d) the best muggles are ones that use consumables to do what some of the clerics, druids, arcane casters do.
Yes and no. Bela uses consumables to reduce the odds of being killed with a single bad roll and to tip the bell curve a touch, especially on armor class.
But he does his killing with his core abilities and permanent equipment. Without the full BAB, decent strength and his weapons, cranking his ac, hitpoints and saves via buffs would not result in victory.
Also, in the Hydra challenge, he did most of it with little or no buffing because he believed the townspeople and thought he'd be traveling for days to do what actually took about an hour. Only after getting three encounters in a half hour, including one where he cast a 30 minute buff during the fight caused him to cast a few more long duration buffs.
He doesn't nova nearly as much as the casters do. I'm hoping the desert challenge will prove interesting, as more of the encounters are scattered in space and time, ie prebuffs aren't as plausible.
I didn't bother checking the latest fight.
Anything that wins with "I fly out of range/reach and win", no matter the status as caster or non-caster, no matter the challenge, deserves the same non-response.
I believe I gave this feedback the first time I ran though....three of four fights were easily defeated with a fly potion and the fourth needs something like fly+haste. As you were asking about probable tactics in a real game, this is something you need to consider.
The snowstorm and rainstorm encounter perhaps also need high winds or something to keep a party from trivializing these encounters. The trolls maybe need strength bows. The average party won't be able to outrun the flowers reliably at level 6.
The final boss challenge though was space constrained, so fly wouldn't win.
By the time my character could afford to fly, he could kill the challenges without needing to fly. He did however use mobility to make the troll fight easier, even if he didn't dust off the ground.
A cleric 5 is CR 5.
A cleric 5 with the deathbound and evil domains and some nasty big zombified monsters under his control is technically also CR 5, but will wipe the floor against any but the best optimized lv5 guys. And when I mean wipe I mean that even the druid and the fleshraker are running for cover.
Show me some stats, I doubt that even an undead follower would make the dino brothers run for cover.
No, the zombie would have its own CR, grant XP, and increase the EL. It doesn't matter that the cleric controls it. It is a separate creature, not a temporary spell effect like a summoned monster.
Which raises a question about the EL of a druid with fleshraker companion and what that says about overpoweredness.
If it counts as EL 5, which I could see due to the fleshraker being a class feature, then who wants to do an el 5 gauntlet of 5 dino duo's? :P The DMM cleric might be ok with favorable sacrifice reducing the damage from both the acid and physical, but I could easilly see him being reduced to 0 dex and dying that way. Pretty much all the other builds would be in a heap of hurt I'm guessing.
I had no doubt that the character would win. But at this level the vast majority of encounters can be won with levitate and a bow. That only shows that ground-based encounters can be won with non-ground-based strategy, not that the class being used is over-, under-, or just-right-powered. If it shows nothing, then it gets no comment.
Much the same as "the will-o-wisp and I bypass each other" doesn't actually show success against that series of encounters.
I posted a version where I simply blinded the opponents rather than flying up. Only using fly to essentially increase land movement (much like longstrider or the like). Hopefully this hobbling demonstrates that fly itself did not allow victory, rather it made some of the encounters much easier. Forcing me to blind them instead of fly out of reach actually made it so success was achieved faster. funny.
Which raises a question about the EL of a druid with fleshraker companion and what that says about overpoweredness.
If it counts as EL 5, which I could see due to the fleshraker being a class feature, then who wants to do an el 5 gauntlet of 5 dino duo's? :P The DMM cleric might be ok with favorable sacrifice reducing the damage from both the acid and physical, but I could easilly see him being reduced to 0 dex and dying that way. Pretty much all the other builds would be in a heap of hurt I'm guessing.
a delay poison would sheer up that gap, assuming there was information from pre-adventure information gathering to know this. though who says the dinos have to be fought? brute force works for a simple encounter but when the CRs start getting too high, the character can utilize tactics and strategies that increase their own effective CR (or for that matter decrease the effective CR of what they are taking on).
Swarms reduced to nonlethal disperse. SRD:
" A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage."
What is unclear is whether it's in a form where I can burn it, or whether I won the challenge by defeating it with nonlethal. Pretty sure I could adjust the behavior via readied actions to burn it as it "becomes active" though.
Hrm.
That's pretty vague about what happens (though readying would likely work, as you mention), especially if it has "dispersed" does that mean it reforms in the same square? Is reforming an action of some sort?
I suppose if the readied action doesn't hit, or doesn't "drop" it only then would it get to deal swarm damage.
Not sure I understand the issue. In prior round he translocated out of range of the swarm, then he charged, got the hit, and got the AOO as it entered his square. It does not matter if it 5' steps or uses more movement, swarms always provoke when engulfing. If I've missed the point of this query let me know.
It's still on the horse, the horse takes 2d6 damage the round after you charged. It was already at negative hit points, took that damage, and had to make a save v. paralysis and possibly poison.
It's really not a matter of winning or losing, rather the amount of expendables used.
Hitpoints shifting up 21 points means I raged in the prior round. He has reckless rage, which adds +6 constitution, he's level 7.
Gotcha; +6 instead of +4.
Tanglefoot bags don't work that way. "scraping off" only helps for if you are "stuck". It doesn't ever remove the half movement. For that you need to have it wear off, or universal solvent.
Here's the relevant rules text. In particular, read the final sentence. Half speed = no 5' step.
"A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. "
Time or universal solvent is the only way out. Or something like Freedom of Movement.
"The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately."
Never mind. Poor reading on my part. The last sentence is all that matters.
Also reading 'scraping off' in the literal sense; off. Silly of my, I know, to apply that sort of thing to D&D rules. :P In this case, 'scraping off' actually means 'not scraped off, just freed from being stuck and can now move at half speed'
I believe I gave this feedback the first time I ran though....three of four fights were easily defeated with a fly potion and the fourth needs something like fly+haste. As you were asking about probable tactics in a real game, this is something you need to consider.
The actual adventure is being written for higher level. Around level 8 I think.
The party also doesn't have much access to flying right now. Aside from the warlock that just quit (time issues), they just don't have the capability. Oh, and the players are eager to jump in and fight, rather than just flee until the warlock pinged the encounter to death. That's one thing that theory doesn't usually take into account; player enthusiasm for fighting.
Also, each encounter is spaced apart a little more. The snow one, for instance, will take long enough that exposure is a real threat for unprepared PCs.
The snowstorm and rainstorm encounter perhaps also need high winds or something to keep a party from trivializing these encounters. The trolls maybe need strength bows. The average party won't be able to outrun the flowers reliably at level 6.
The snow encounter is actually a rhemoraz and 2x chraal. The rhemoraz just attacks the party. The chraal encounter was changed thanks to this thread to take place in a slippery, sloped ice cave (gave the chraal ice walking as a white dragon) with 2x chrall. That adds another factor that I didn't think about for this thread; constant Balance checks.
The undead encounter is one boneclaw, one bone drinker, a wraith and... I think one specter. (notes are at work)
The trolls come equipped with a plethora of jungle appropriate traps that they'll lead the party into. They'll actually use hit and run tactics and allow their own fast healing to whittle the party down. I figure they'd run when they get down to 75% of max hit points. The jungle is also thick enough to provide total cover at 90 ft. I may have also applied the monster of legend template to both trolls.
The swarm isn't actually being used. I've replaced that with a family of ambush drakes. More of a straight forward encounter to make up for the ice cave and the guerrilla/trap trolls.
The final boss challenge though was space constrained, so fly wouldn't win.
I'm thinking the final boss in the real adventure will be that monstrosity plus a durzagon warblade.
By the time my character could afford to fly, he could kill the challenges without needing to fly. He did however use mobility to make the troll fight easier, even if he didn't dust off the ground.
Sure. Using it for mobility still shows the capability of fighting the monsters, instead of levitate up, use bow.
The actual adventure is being written for higher level. Around level 8 I think.
Reminds me a bit of a ?2nd edition? adventure I went through several years ago. Though that one was for much higher level characters and the concept was that each character essentially became a demi-god of one of the small planes of their choice that were part of the adventure. Was one of the more memorable ones that I did. Something to think about...to take from that adventure is 'cloning' the characters and having them fight themselves. That was the scariest part of that adventure.
Reminds me a bit of a ?2nd edition? adventure I went through several years ago. Though that one was for much higher level characters and the concept was that each character essentially became a demi-god of one of the small planes of their choice that were part of the adventure. Was one of the more memorable ones that I did. Something to think about...to take from that adventure is 'cloning' the characters and having them fight themselves. That was the scariest part of that adventure.
I've never heard of that one. Sounds interesting. I've used the 'characters fight themselves', though not with the current group.
a delay poison would sheer up that gap, assuming there was information from pre-adventure information gathering to know this.
Per Customer Service, it wouldn't matter much. You'd still take the acid damage from Venomfire, even if you're immune to poison. A sneaky caster relying on ability damage could possibly take them down, but it wouldn't be easy. A level 5 druid with a fleshraker is certainly more powerful than most level 5 characters, IMO.
Per Customer Service, it wouldn't matter much. You'd still take the acid damage from Venomfire, even if you're immune to poison. A sneaky caster relying on ability damage could possibly take them down, but it wouldn't be easy. A level 5 druid with a fleshraker is certainly more powerful than most level 5 characters, IMO.
Favorable Sacrifice is already in the set of 'protections' so the DMM cleric shouldn't take the acid damage unless I'm missing something?
Thought, other tactics like shivering touch, blinding spittle, and various no-save cripple spells seem like a good opposed tactic if not trying to brute melee it.
Or turn the animals against the 'master'/subdue them with things like charm animal (Have to look at fleshraker, don't know what all their abilities are).
There were some new categories of encounter here, but I'd say that improved grab and single-monster encounters were a touch overdone. The same kind of character is going to defeat 3 of the 5 encounters because they're the same basic kind of critter (although environmental aspects were different and there were significant variations in what the grabmonsters could do that might trip up some charactesr)
The environmental aspects were also kind of interesting given that I could not, for example, swap my horse for a camel.
I attached it to the post where I had other L7 challenges. You can follow it through from page 1
(Final Bela to L7 Bela to final link on bottom of L7 Bela).
I see that there is a new L7 challenge listed. I'll try that some other day.
It's still on the horse, the horse takes 2d6 damage the round after you charged. It was already at negative hit points, took that damage, and had to make a save v. paralysis and possibly poison.
It's really not a matter of winning or losing, rather the amount of expendables used.
I might have been off by a bit resulting in a dead horse. If it's at neg hitpoints, it doesn't matter if it is paralyzed, but the poison would matter.
As the horse dies and is replaced by Mount spells in future encounters and I don't use it effectively in combat after that encounter, I don't think it changes the outcome except possibly by another 15gp for an extra mount spell.
Actually the horse getting killed sooner might have saved me consumables as I was recasting bear endurance on it at 90gp a pop for later challenges to mitigate the con loss from the troll and later flower poison.
Favorable Sacrifice is already in the set of 'protections' so the DMM cleric shouldn't take the acid damage unless I'm missing something?
No. I'm the one who missed something. :P
I won't get into the Ghoul Glyphs here, apart from saying that if the Kobolds have 'ways' to get past them, so do clever players.
What I do get into is your claim that Kobolds count as a CR of Character level -3, however, this is only true for NPC classes. (It says so in the SRD, and I don't see anything in Races of the Dragon suggesting otherwise.) A Kobold Sorcerer 1 will be CR 1 as per the monster improvement rules which can be seen here.
I'm sure the Kobolds will still win in the end, but lets make it slightly more fair. ;)
I said -2. It would follow naturally from the -1 standard for a NPC class . Kobolds have a base 1/4 and then going by the advancing to 1 class level it increase by 1 CR to 1/2. For 2 levels in sorcerer it would increase to by another 1 to 1 CR.
Two 1/2 Cr creatures make a 1 CR encounter. However, the last encounter should be CR 2, by the advancement rules. I'll make the change.
Favorable Sacrifice is already in the set of 'protections' so the DMM cleric shouldn't take the acid damage unless I'm missing something?
Thought, other tactics like shivering touch, blinding spittle, and various no-save cripple spells seem like a good opposed tactic if not trying to brute melee it.
Or turn the animals against the 'master'/subdue them with things like charm animal (Have to look at fleshraker, don't know what all their abilities are).
The thing is for most builds you have to kill/cripple both dino's in a single round. Even if you have enough protections that they can't one round you with pure damage they are likely to trip/grapple and they have some pretty monsterous mods for that. I think the druid is +23 grapple or so, he beats the rug by just grappling it down while Pouncy claws away. If you were running it as a gauntlet they would win init and charge before you get an action with fair regularity and that is just trouble no matter how you slice it.
So a single save or lose won't work, it has to target both or you have to have some method to avoid being charged.
I agree with the argument that the DMM cleric has some weaknesses (Dex damage, even with high saves, saves or dies could hit, or you could get past the 15/17 resist all, SR 12, and DR 10/magic - the last of which is easily within the means of 5th level characters). I'm not saying it's pun-pun. I am saying it is a character with both power and versatility a melee character can't show, even at that level. Like the druid.
I agree. I was just saying that the DMM cleric is the only one I think would have a chance at runnign a "CR5" gauntlet full of fleshraker druids.
I agree. I was just saying that the DMM cleric is the only one I think would have a chance at runnign a "CR5" gauntlet full of fleshraker druids.
It's all about the AC for that. If you have enough, the fact that between them they get 10 attacks doesn't matter. You can ignore the pet and go after the one that demonstrates spellcasting power (because that's what will let the druid win against ultra-high AC). The attack mods are only +10 (+15 with round/level buffs) and a bit more for charging, if you don't do something to prevent the charge.
I suspect the alter-self/ancestral dwarf weenies would do ok. As would anyone who could fly and had a meaningful ranged attack. Hm..the greenbound summoner might also do pretty well, depending on tactics, wall of thorns is pretty hard on the companion and blocking vision with smoke takes away charging entirely for both druid and companion.
Keep in mind also that a lot of the power on the fleshraker combo is active with short duration buffs (and consumables that NPC are less likely to have given their cash limits). Go ride away for 15 minutes after setting off the alarm, come back and you only have to worry about GMW, venomfire and some of the AC spells. Go ride away for 2 hours after setting off the alarm and you're down to GMW and venomfire I think....and the attack mods are puny enough that even L5 Bela could have probably stood them off with a bit of combat expertise.
Works less well defending than when attacking.
It's all about the AC for that. If you have enough, the fact that between them they get 10 attacks doesn't matter. You can ignore the pet and go after the one that demonstrates spellcasting power (because that's what will let the druid win against ultra-high AC). The attack mods are only +10 (+15 with round/level buffs) and a bit more for charging, if you don't do something to prevent the charge.
I suspect the alter-self/ancestral dwarf weenies would do ok. As would anyone who could fly and had a meaningful ranged attack. Hm..the greenbound summoner might also do pretty well, depending on tactics, wall of thorns is pretty hard on the companion and blocking vision with smoke takes away charging entirely for both druid and companion.
Keep in mind also that a lot of the power on the fleshraker combo is active with short duration buffs (and consumables that NPC are less likely to have given their cash limits). Go ride away for 15 minutes after setting off the alarm, come back and you only have to worry about GMW, venomfire and some of the AC spells. Go ride away for 2 hours after setting off the alarm and you're down to GMW and venomfire I think....and the attack mods are puny enough that even L5 Bela could have probably stood them off with a bit of combat expertise.
Works less well defending than when attacking.
In the case of someone with ultra high (ie. 35+) ac the tactic would be using grapple instead. Once you're grappled (via touch or one attack landing on a charge) I don't need to roll to hit, I roll grapple and if if I succeed I deal claw and rake damage. Thats what would kill Bela I think, if he can buff his ac to that point. Remeber you are still looking at +16 to hit or so, so with an ac of "only" 27 you're getting hit 50% of the time.
There are a fair number of spells that last an hour or less, but without them its still quite playable.
In the case of someone with ultra high (ie. 35+) ac the tactic would be using grapple instead. Once you're grappled (via touch or one attack landing on a charge) I don't need to roll to hit, I roll grapple and if if I succeed I deal claw and rake damage. Thats what would kill Bela I think, if he can buff his ac to that point. Remeber you are still looking at +16 to hit or so, so with an ac of "only" 27 you're getting hit 50% of the time.
There are a fair number of spells that last an hour or less, but without them its still quite playable.
Not to remember you'd either need Spellcraft + Detect Magic to know what spells are active and how long they'll last, else is metagaming.
Show me some stats, I doubt that even an undead follower would make the dino brothers run for cover.
Ok, here it goes:
Deathbound and evil domains. At level 5 is thus able to control 36 HD worth of undead.
Get 3 twelve headed pyro hydras bodies.
Animate them as skeletons.
Corpse crafter and destructive retribution feats.
Now for the cherry on top of the cake. Get a scroll of awaken undead. Awaken your hydras. Give them combat reflexes and improved iniative and whatever you're feeling like for feats. Oh, they got their extraordinary abilities back. So they now have fast healing 22
So let's put up some numbers:
Space/reach:15ft/10ft
HP(with corpsecrafter and desecrated area with shrine): 126
Iniative +6
move:20 feet/swim 20 feet
Str 27 dex 14 con- int 2 wis 10 cha 1
AC: 10-2 size +2 DEX +3 skeleton=13. Sucks big time. Have to work on this.
DR5/bludgeoding and cold immunity
Attacks: +6 BAB +8 str +2 desecration-2 size +1 weapon focus(bite) +1 improved natural attack(bite)=16
An hydra can always attack with all its heads even if it's a standard action or charge.
Grapple: 22
Damage:2d8+8 str+2 desecrate= 19
Undead imunities
Saves: +2 fort +4 ref +8 will
feats:improved iniative, combat reflexes, weapon focus(bite), improved natural attack(bite).
Fast healing 22, scent, dark vision 60 feet, low light vision
If slain they deal 7d6 of negative energy damage thanks to destructive retribution in a 10 foot spread around them, ref save 15 for half.
The hydra can use all his heads on attacks of oportunity with combat reflexes
There are 3 skeleton pyrohydras. Plus the cleric who still needs optimizing. The hydras however are quite a challenge by themselves.
This is a rough draft. The feats could get some work on, or maybe search for even nastier monsters to animate. Still it gets an idea of the power of the necromancer cleric. If you could repost the link to your druid I would be thankfull.
The awakened hydras have crappy AC but good HP and DR. They can dish out some sick damage thanks to the multiple heads.
Any doubts or errors you find feel free to point them out.
I really don't know how are you calculating the combat acumulated percentages so either you do it or explain me.
Should easilly take out any of the challenges posted so far though.
I would be a little curious where a level 5 cleric is going to come aross those corpses though.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
Now kidding less druid defenders (you not grizzly tough) always claim shops have reserves of big dragon hides to craft druid armors. I guess there will be some freak in town who sells dead hydras as well. Or use divination spells. It wont be easy, but hey, hydras get killed, and their bodies don't evaporate.
As for taking the dino brothers, I think I found a way.
Give improved unarmed strike and improved natural strike instead of weapon focus an improved grapple instead of improved natural attack. Now they have a sick grapple of +26. Can your dino brothers beat this? If not, the hydras will slowly kill them by grappling and stablishing several pins at a a time with half the heads while attacking with the remaining.
One more thing. Hydras normally can grow extra heads. But it isn't listed as either a supernatural or extraordinary ability so I don't know if my awakened hydras get them. I guess it's extraordinary since it's a kind of regeneration. If they do get them then each day my cleric cuts off their heads so I have 24 headed hydras for a total of 64 attacks per round. That's at least 3 natural 20's that will hit the dino brothers regardless of AC.
With damage reduction, fast healing 22 and 126 hp they also aren't exactly easily to kill despite the pathetic AC. I would like to check your druid build to check if he can outrun their regeneration before the hydras kill them with critical hits. Hey, with 36 attacks per round, they will roll a 20 here and there.
Also I really don't know much cleric spells outside of core. I guess somewhere out there are some spells that make undeads sexy gods of death. Have to do some research. But for now to sleep.
Especially if I made an easy listen check when all that prebuffing was going on. Animal growth in particular.
(without animal growth, you won't be grappling squat. Anything size large like ancestral dwarf isn't grappleable with improved grab, and you have to hit to use improved grab. If you're using touch attacks, a simple AOO prevents it down....there is no improved grapple on the fleshraker builds...and finally the grapple mod without animal growth is nothing special)
Even if I'm wrong and it is some weird creature and not a druid, it doesn't hurt to come back 2 hours later. None of the druid battlefield control spells are part of that build to prevent retreat and return and none of the challenges so far have any time pressure or response by the bad guys if you retreat.
Bela wouldn't normally win (at least not level 5 Bela) as his AC isn't high enough vs the buffed version and they could probably kill his horse before he could react. The thing is though, as the reactive party with NPC cash (rather than the active party with PC) most of the oomph goes out of the fleshraker build (and the rest of the caster builds, for that matter). If they're just sitting in a cave with nothing but hour buffs (or not even that...at L5 there is a 4/5 chance it's expired if precast) and a high AC build with decent offense comes around the corner fully buffed, they might not get to charge, they might not get to grapple and they might be dead before they got to do much.
I'd like to see some of these fleshraker or DMM builds do the challenges that don't assume you can prebuff. The hydra challenge has information that it will take days to accomplish, which means you shouldn't be buffing minute buffs and assuming you'll get through it. Even hour buffs are dicey. The desert challenge has a couple encounters that occur with no warning too, and you don't even know what day they'll occur on.
Kick the tail of those encounters, and I'll be more of a believer. So far though, the vast majority of the challenges assume the PC is active and fully buffed. I find that at odds with my own gaming experience but I've heard of campaigns that don't ever put reactive stuff on PC's. Maybe this is one of them.
You can use rake attacks two ways
1. Pounce....if you have pounce you can usually rake as part of the charge attack. (most monster descriptions with rake and pounce)
"Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack-including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability,"
2. in a turn where you STARTED in a grapple...can use rake attacks in addition to normal grapple options. (Rake rules MM1)
"Rake (Ex):...A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake-it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
3. You can never, ever, attack with more than one natural weapon in a grapple barring rake.
"Rake (Ex): .... Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. "
(no, the hydra can not pin with one head and attack with the other heads)
4. if you use iterative attacks in a grapple, you're using unarmed strike based on your size, not a nat weapon. nat weapons don't get iterative attacks (see nat weapon description, MMI). A hydra with bab 6+ could pin somebody and grapple with its iterative for damage, but it's a slow way to try to kill anybody.
"Natural Weapons: ...Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons"
PHB grapple rules:
"Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses."
Don't get multiple attacks? Can't take multiple grapple actions. Monsters always get iteratives with unarmed strike but never with nat weapons. Improved grab lets you grapple for damage with a nat weapon, but it doesn't give iteratives based on BAB when doing that.
I'd like to see some of these fleshraker or DMM builds do the challenges that don't assume you can prebuff. The hydra challenge has information that it will take days to accomplish, which means you shouldn't be buffing minute buffs and assuming you'll get through it. Even hour buffs are dicey. The desert challenge has a couple encounters that occur with no warning too, and you don't even know what day they'll occur on.
Kick the tail of those encounters, and I'll be more of a believer. So far though, the vast majority of the challenges assume the PC is active and fully buffed. I find that at odds with my own gaming experience but I've heard of campaigns that don't ever put reactive stuff on PC's. Maybe this is one of them.
Perhaps you missed the part where almost all of my buffs last 24 hours? I'll run it when I get the time.
Perhaps you missed the part where almost all of my buffs last 24 hours? I'll run it when I get the time.
I didn't miss the part where you have to burn expensive one-shot consumables for each day of activity.
Unless the build has mutated?
To put my money where my mouth is, I really should come up with a set of encounters that isn't in a situation where they all allow prebuffing. I play in a lot of adventures that kind of go like this:
1. The party is in a location going about their normal business, no expectation of trouble. A fight breaks out. (these encounters reward "always ready" characters)
2. time critical events are discovered from the survivors of the fight. Todays spells are what you have, modulo empty slots. (these encounters reward investigative characters, and always ready characters)
3. while investigating the events, somebody notices you snooping and sets up an ambush. You have no idea it will happen until it does. (these reward characters with very sharp senses, unusual divinations or protections that they can keep up for long periods)
4. you learn enough to know what the threat is and how to stop it. You're finally the active party but may not know the location and time of the final battle down to the minute/grid location and the enemy has scouts, pickets, alarm spells etc that can mess with prebuffing. (these encounters reward scouting, preparations, divination and sometimes mobility....the speed of doing 1-3 often has an effect on how prepared the enemy is or how tough the opposition is)
I've also played a lot like this:
1. Party must journey to a far location, escorting some squishie (diplomat, child, etc). There is expectation of environmental hazards and perhaps the squishie has enemies. The journey will take weeks with normal transport, or
days with something like phantom steed. There is a reason why they aren't just teleporting there (too low level,
or location isn't known and must be explored, etc)
2. obligatory thug encounter happens. bandit or hungry monster-type encounter unrelated to main plot. This tends to reward alert characters as the thugs rarely have the skill to avoid detection by ranger/rogue types.
3. natural hazard encounter occurs (or might be a part of the whole trip, like extreme cold, heat, rain etc). Usually this is used to drain spell slots from casters, but sometimes survival checks etc are sufficient.
4. encounter related to plot happens. Generally NPC is actively obnoxious in some way, making it more difficult. These tend to be harder to detect as the bad guys know something about the PC's most of the time and the NPC is at risk or is actively hostile (eg, escorting a prisoner).
5. payoff encounter....final effort to prevent the objective. This may or may not be on the final day and may or may not be related to PC's assisting the NPC is his chosen task (eg, diplomacy, trade agreement, exploration). Quite often these encounters occur halfway through and the adventure winds up with "nothing else happens, you get the kid to safety etc" and just as often it's not combat that is required here but utility magic/skills/etc.
With this structure, sometimes the 4th is the final, or there are more random hazards etc. Sometimes things happen
on the same day (2 weeks of uneventful travel, then three hard encounters, then 2 weeks of uneventful travel).
The first kind of adventure pretty much eliminates spell reshuffling and often purchase of consumables beyond what you normally carry, but as you get the time early you could burn one-shot consumables for long duration buffs hoping to get it all done before they wear out. The second allows a lot of spell shuffling but you go into each encounter not knowing if there will be more that day, and you can't keep up any long duration buffs that require consumable burn.
Sometimes these are combined. Ie the strenuous efforts of the first day leads to a long journey with somebody you need to protect, or the payoff "encounter" is actually a whole extra adventure with the arrival of the NPC setting off a time-critical crisis.
By contrast, I rarely get the "with full knowledge that I'm about to enter an adventure and few or no threats on the way, travel to a location that will be unprepared for your attack and stomp it flat on your own timeline" type adventure. I do get some, but it's the exception, not the rule.
I didn't miss the part where you have to burn expensive one-shot consumables for each day of activity.
Unless the build has mutated?
You do realize that a multi day adventure just lets the casters refresh all thier spells over and over right?
I can do them but I don't know that it'll prove much.
Ahg....a few other rules nitpicks from recent conversations. If more people read the MM glossary, we wouldn't have these problems.
You can use rake attacks two ways
1. Pounce....if you have pounce you can usually rake as part of the charge attack. (most monster descriptions with rake and pounce)
"Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack-including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability,"
2. in a turn where you STARTED in a grapple...can use rake attacks in addition to normal grapple options. (Rake rules MM1)
"Rake (Ex):...A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake-it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
3. You can never, ever, attack with more than one natural weapon in a grapple barring rake.
"Rake (Ex): .... Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. "
There are exceptions to this. Namely some monsters have text like "When winning a grapple check can deal damage with claw and rake attacks" or "With a successfull grapple check can deal damage as if all natural weapons hit"
I didn't miss the part where you have to burn expensive one-shot consumables for each day of activity.
Perhaps you missed the part where that isn't for each day of activity, but for days of activity when I know I am going into dragons lairs.
If the start of my information is "Alright, now for the two week hike through the desert", you better believe I'm "merely" going with Channelled Divine Shield for DR 10/Evil, Ice Axe for 2d12+3 as a touch attack, Divine Favour, Nightshield, and all that other good stuff without any of the buffs that are for planning to solo gods.
And I look forward to seeing your adventures. The consumables, like I pointed out, perhaps 5-6 times, are for when the cleric plans to solo dragons. Normal day to day wouldn't need them, since the cleric has no trouble taking on CR 5 and some CR 6 encounters without them.
You do realize that a multi day adventure just lets the casters refresh all thier spells over and over right?
I can do them but I don't know that it'll prove much.
They can refresh their spells but they don't know when to cast the buffs. The usual response to this is to prep fewer buffs and more boom, but the DMM and fleshraker builds don't really work that way. (not all successful caster builds are as tied to buffs, but they may prove too fragile without them. Hard to know without seeing it)
None of the level 5 guys other than the DMM guy had buffs that lasted all day, most are burning one-shot expensive consumables that don't last very long and even the DMM guy is burning 1 shot consumables to have one really good day of activity.
In the hydra challenge, for example, it is metagaming to cast even 10 minute buffs when the information you have is that it will take days to get to the hydra, unless your character would only adventure 1 hour and then stop for 23 hours every time his buffs ran out. It's less so when you get several encounters only 10-15 minutes apart, of course.
I think the planar challenge would be much tougher if he had a couple hours of wandering around in each plane before the attack began, instead of a handful of rounds. Then you could only uberbuff for the boss (who needs it), although the DMM strategy would still work, as he could burn 1 shot consumables for 1 day of work.
I'd be satisfied I think if the desert challenge was attempted and the buffing strategy worked. That has a week travel minimum with two encounters that occur when the character isn't ready. I'd get a much better feel for how much is the build and how much is the uberbuffs.
(I know what is is on Bela. He's pretty competent with no buffs, even the L7 build only needs about 1 buff in combat (alter self troglodyte) for harder encounters. He only needs the full buff cycle if he's expecting to fight a lot of battles back to back. His peak though isn't as high as the successful caster builds. There are some things he can't face that they can if prepared...what I'm driving at is I'm wondering how well those guys do when they aren't prepared to see if it averages out)
Perhaps you missed the part where that isn't for each day of activity, but for days of activity when I know I am going into dragons lairs.
I did miss it, but then we haven't had any days except the equivalent of hunting dragons (or hydras, or creepy vaults or one-day extraplanar challenges) except the desert adventure. So I don't know what your character looks like without that stuff, can't distinguish the oneshots from the "routine".
Maybe this weekend I'll have time to write up some differently structured adventures.
Ahg....a few other rules nitpicks from recent conversations. If more people read the MM glossary, we wouldn't have these problems.
With the convoluted manner in which these rules have been scattered, seemingly contradicting themselves at times (especially when reading FAQ entries) and the complain it that people aren't reading the MM better?
Not to criticize; I'd probably go with "If the rules were laid out more clearly, we wouldn't have these problems."
Maybe this weekend I'll have time to write up some differently structured adventures.
I get bored with a lot of "This encounter supprises you no matter your senses or skills and in the supprise round tries to start a grapple". Yeah ok, I get it. That works pretty well against a lot of casters, especially if you don't have any buffs up but its hardly an encounter respresentative of a typical encounter any more than an unending stream of swarms with various elemental immunities is.
Looking at the desert series it looks like at least 2 of the encounters are set up like that, 3 if you count the incorporeal undead from the walls.
Desert Fun
Encounter 1: Scorpion
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm
Show
Ok ... per encounter, it wins init (you cannot take more than one action on a surprise round).
It attacks (+11 vs 10+4-1-1-2, 95%) for 10.5 damage. This initiates the grapple attempt. CQF activates, my attack is (+4+5+1 = 10 vs AC 20, 55% chance) hitting, dealing (2d4+1d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+1+7) 16.5 damage which gets added to my grapple attempt (+21 vs +25.5, 70%, I win).
My turn. I rage, single attack (+12 vs ac 20, 65%, 120%, missing) and attempt to tumble backwards 15', however, I cannot, so I provoke an AoO. It attempts to hit me (+11 vs ac 14, 90%, 185%) for 10.5 damage. This triggers fire riposte (+9 vs ac 8, 95%, 215%) hitting for (4d6) 14 damage. The scorpion (int 0) attempts another grapple, which triggers CQF (+12 vs ac 20, 65%, 280%) which hits for (2d4+1d6+10+1 = 5+3.5+10+1) 19.5 damage, which is added to my grapple attempt (21 vs 30.5) so it fails.
End of Round 1: Me: 12, It: 25
Round 2:
Per srd, it charges me attacking (+13 vs 14, 95%, 190%), hitting for 10.5 damage. The scorpion (int 0) attempts another grapple, which triggers CQF (+12 vs ac 18, 75%, 355%) which hits for (2d4+1d6+10+1 = 5+3.5+10+1) 19.5 damage, which is added to my grapple attempt (21 vs 30.5) so it fails.
(It is now at 5.5)
I heal 1 hp.
I full attack it (75%, 430) missing and (75%, 505) hitting for 19.5 damage, killing it.
End of round 2: Me: 2.5, It: dead
I search it's body/etc ... rage wears off, I heal up to 16.5 and use two charges from my belt, bringing me up to full.
Ok ... per encounter, it wins init (you cannot take more than one action on a surprise round).
It attacks (+11 vs 10+4-1-1-2, 95%) for 10.5 damage. This initiates the grapple attempt. CQF activates, my attack is (+4+5+1 = 10 vs AC 20, 55% chance) hitting, dealing (2d4+1d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+1+7) 16.5 damage which gets added to my grapple attempt (+21 vs +25.5, 70%, I win).
My turn. I rage, single attack (+12 vs ac 20, 65%, 120%, missing) and attempt to tumble backwards 15', however, I cannot, so I provoke an AoO. It attempts to hit me (+11 vs ac 14, 90%, 185%) for 10.5 damage. This triggers fire riposte (+9 vs ac 8, 95%, 215%) hitting for (4d6) 14 damage. The scorpion (int 0) attempts another grapple, which triggers CQF (+12 vs ac 20, 65%, 280%) which hits for (2d4+1d6+10+1 = 5+3.5+10+1) 19.5 damage, which is added to my grapple attempt (21 vs 30.5) so it fails.
End of Round 1: Me: 12, It: 25
Round 2:
Per srd, it charges me attacking (+13 vs 14, 95%, 190%), hitting for 10.5 damage. The scorpion (int 0) attempts another grapple, which triggers CQF (+12 vs ac 18, 75%, 355%) which hits for (2d4+1d6+10+1 = 5+3.5+10+1) 19.5 damage, which is added to my grapple attempt (21 vs 30.5) so it fails.
(It is now at 5.5)
I heal 1 hp.
I full attack it (75%, 430) missing and (75%, 505) hitting for 19.5 damage, killing it.
End of round 2: Me: 2.5, It: dead
I search it's body/etc ... rage wears off, I heal up to 16.5 and use two charges from my belt, bringing me up to full.
Additional point. You walk around with a 2h weapon out and readied at all times? I don't think so. If you don't you certainly can't use CQF to prevent it from simply grabbing and killing you on round 1.
To be fair its probably not very smart to walk around in punishing stance all the time either, so your armor should be slightly higher until you get a chance to activate your stance.
I get bored with a lot of "This encounter supprises you no matter your senses or skills and in the supprise round tries to start a grapple". Yeah ok, I get it. That works pretty well against a lot of casters, especially if you don't have any buffs up but its hardly an encounter respresentative of a typical encounter any more than an unending stream of swarms with various elemental immunities is.
Looking at the desert series it looks like at least 2 of the encounters are set up like that, 3 if you count the incorporeal undead from the walls.
Yeah, like I said, it's not varied enough to be satisfying.
One tremorsense+grapple monster is enough, although the first uses surprise round to move out and has low init, so many of the caster builds will have time to do something, and the second has a 50% miss chance because it's targeting with tremorsense in the surprise round.
I want to make time and circumstances more varied in my adventures while still rewarding investments in skills, enhanced senses or the ability to stay buffed for unusually long periods for a level 5 or 7 character.
At least one encounter will pick on each of the serious issues with druid builds in real play - you can't talk or socialize if wildshaped, and sometimes people won't let you take a poisonous dinosaur (or other scary wild animal) into civilized areas, at least not outside of a cage or similar. There are ways around these problems but they take resources or cost combat actions.
(eg, some druids I know cast camoflauge on their dire bats and have them hide in the rooftops within calling distance. This tactic usually only works at night. Others cast reduce animal on their apes or dire wolves and try to pass them off as brutish humanoids or "dogs". This works better with a party disguise or bluff artist. Others accept a weaker companion for social acceptability, horse or dog. Some just leave the giant crocodile outside in the river and do without while in town....)
That same encounter will also prevent tactics like having a giant sized zombie with you....they won't let it in the city. But I won't have the whole adventure like that. Most times you can get cut a lot more slack once the city is demonstratably in peril or if not the adventure leads out of the city after the early encounters. To be fair I'll also have some weapon restrictions, many walled cities in games I play limit things like reach and projectile weapons, and have penalties for doing property damage or injuring innocents with magic or alchemicals.
Additional point. You walk around with a 2h weapon out and readied at all times? I don't think so. If you don't you certainly can't use CQF to prevent it from simply grabbing and killing you on round 1.
I've seen this argument but I don't actually buy it. Real military people on patrol in dangerous areas carry heavy weapons ready for use at all times. Given how often adventurers get attacked and that the blurb indicates the desert is dangerous, yes he'd have his weapon out.
D&D allows you to have weapons and shields readied for 8 hours of travel with no penalties, even if you are a 3 strength, 3 constitution weakling. Even beyond that, it's just fatigue and force marching rules. You don't take extra fatigue or earlier fatigue for having your 50lb tower shield ready, so a weapon that ways a fifth of that is unlikely to cause issues.
Disallowing readied weapons is a very significant nerf on combat reflexes. Any character with the feat will generally have a reach weapon out while traveling overland, ready for use.
Bela doesn't have weapons out because he never knows which weapon he'll need in hand first and he doesn't have combat reflexes. If his build was different he wouldn't start combat with his weapon hand empty.
With the convoluted manner in which these rules have been scattered, seemingly contradicting themselves at times (especially when reading FAQ entries) and the complain it that people aren't reading the MM better?
Not to criticize; I'd probably go with "If the rules were laid out more clearly, we wouldn't have these problems."
Yeah, I should have been more polite. It's a bit of a hot button for me.
You just don't know how many times I've had to, at the table, educate GM's about this (and sometimes the rest of the table). Generally where the result of what the GM was going to do would absolutely result in a character death because he's taking advantage of the massive grapple modifier big nat-weapon users often have while not paying attention to any of the restrictions.
Getting grappled is dangerous enough without giving the monster all the power it has when not in a grapple too.
I want to make time and circumstances more varied in my adventures while still rewarding investments in skills, enhanced senses or the ability to stay buffed for unusually long periods for a level 5 or 7 character.
At least one encounter will pick on each of the serious issues with druid builds in real play - you can't talk or socialize if wildshaped, and sometimes people won't let you take a poisonous dinosaur (or other scary wild animal) into civilized areas, at least not outside of a cage or similar. There are ways around these problems but they take resources or cost combat actions.
(eg, some druids I know cast camoflauge on their dire bats and have them hide in the rooftops within calling distance. This tactic usually only works at night. Others cast reduce animal on their apes or dire wolves and try to pass them off as brutish humanoids or "dogs". This works better with a party disguise or bluff artist. Others accept a weaker companion for social acceptability, horse or dog. Some just leave the giant crocodile outside in the river and do without while in town....)
Thats getting fairly far afield of the origional intent of the thread.
A Ghostwise halfling can eliminate the problem with speaking in forms solo. In a party its fairly simple to arrange for one of them to be able to speak to and translate for you, not really applicable solo.
Its true that there are some settings where taking (or being) an animal inside city limits is not allowed by law. I see those as no more common than a city that forbids an armed populace though and don't see it as having any bearing on a builds inherent strength.
I've seen this argument but I don't actually buy it. Real military people on patrol in dangerous areas carry heavy weapons ready for use at all times. Given how often adventurers get attacked and that the blurb indicates the desert is dangerous, yes he'd have his weapon out.
D&D allows you to have weapons and shields readied for 8 hours of travel with no penalties, even if you are a 3 strength, 3 constitution weakling. Even beyond that, it's just fatigue and force marching rules. You don't take extra fatigue or earlier fatigue for having your 50lb tower shield ready, so a weapon that ways a fifth of that is unlikely to cause issues.
Disallowing readied weapons is a very significant nerf on combat reflexes. Any character with the feat will generally have a reach weapon out while traveling overland, ready for use.
Bela doesn't have weapons out because he never knows which weapon he'll need in hand first and he doesn't have combat reflexes. If his build was different he wouldn't start combat with his weapon hand empty.
There are no specific rules that dictate penalties for that no. But there are no penalties for walking on your hands for 8 hours instead of your feet. Or listed penalties for walking at 1lb under max load for 8 hours instead of at 0.
As far as real military examples, no just no. Nobody carries around a squad support weapon ready to fire for 8 hours, thats roughly the same thing as a 2 handed weapon. Even a rifle held at the ready will require a ready action before shooting.
As far as nerfing combat reflexes, gee I'm so sorry there is a weakness in your feat. Maybe we could arrange encounters so that melee are never forced to fight from a disadvantage.
These are heroic characters. They don't get tired easily and they're able to use abilities they paid for in build resources.
Combat Reflexes is not MY feat. MY character doesn't have combat reflexes and, yes, will lose some options in a city where it isn't socially acceptable to have pole-arms or warhorses in the tavern. Just as in the cave encounters he often can't bring his warhorse or lance into the equation.
If a character is powerful, he's powerful all the time. Not just in narrow circumstances where he can dictate every aspect of the encounter.
That's my beef with the challenges so far. Most of them are the identical kind of encounter (PC is the active party, knowing location and precisely when he can buff, and challenge is over before his ability to do short duration buffs is exhausted).
A really powerful character isn't going to care if the encounter takes place on the road, in camp at night, on a boat at sea, in a tavern, during horrible weather or in response to a call for help, and he'll be good at 8AM, noon, 5PM and just before he goes to sleep. Most characters do perform a bit under their usual level if woken up in the middle of the night after a tough day.
He might not be AS good in all those circumstances, but he should be able to cope. In my experience the "ok, we're about to enter a cave where we know there are badguys. Lets buff up and kick the door down" is fairly uncommon. I might see it one combat encounter in 8 or 10 (although when it happens, it's often a string of encounters). So a build where most of the resources for the day are spent on 30 minutes of activity seems weak to me, unless it's proven to be "good enough" without all the short duration buffs and "adequate" without the long duration buffs, unless the long duration buffs really can be kept up 24x7.
Some extreme conditions (underwater, stripped of equipment etc) also highlight power, but they happen rarely enough that I don't seriously expect most builds to operate well. (although Bela in both incarnations considers the risk of being dropped into water suddenly or needing minimal fighting ability there, eg the shockers in the pool and has stuff he can do without any of his equipment but the CR he can handle is lower)
A Ghostwise halfling can eliminate the problem with speaking in forms solo. In a party its fairly simple to arrange for one of them to be able to speak to and translate for you, not really applicable solo.
Then do the build with a ghostwise halfling and use it in all the challenges if this worries you.
Or suck it up and be humanoid in cities and similar social situations and spend a std action wildshaping when the bad stuff starts.
I've found personally that until you have 3 wildshapes a day, the inability to communicate while wildshaped is a pretty big limiter on when you can wildshape especially (as is often the case in levels 5-7) the party doesn't have a telepathic bond for you. Since the polymorph eratta, speak with animals no longer works on druids. Higher level druids can usually afford to waste a wildshape or two coming back out of form to talk, but at level 5, you get one shot a day and if you shift out to communicate, you're done until tomorrow.
I find it quite odd that you in one post slam me for positing a typical combat encounter well within rules and social expectations of a high fantasy game and in the next post actively nerf a feat in the same high fantasy game with zero rules support. "It's unrealistic to hold a weapon ready for long periods" doesn't fly in a game where the average commoner can labor without food 8 hours a day for 3 days without any ill effects as long as he's given some water.
I find it odd that you talk about the inconvenience of wildshaping and then defend having your hands full with a weapon all day.
I thought the whole point of the random ambush encounters was to see how the build works when unprepared? Am I right? Now I have no problem with someone in a cave having a weapon ready while exploring. I have a lot more problem with "I draw my spiked chain in the morning and start walking. At night I put away my spiked chain and go to sleep."
These are heroic characters. They don't get tired easily and they're able to use abilities they paid for in build resources.
Doesn't fly. You are equating having a feat with being able to use it at all times. By that logic all casters start all ambushes prebuffed because they paid build resources for it.
Combat Reflexes is not MY feat. MY character doesn't have combat reflexes and, yes, will lose some options in a city where it isn't socially acceptable to have pole-arms or warhorses in the tavern. Just as in the cave encounters he often can't bring his warhorse or lance into the equation.
If a character is powerful, he's powerful all the time. Not just in narrow circumstances where he can dictate every aspect of the encounter.
Polearms? How many medival cities do you think allowed even what DnD would call a dagger? In asian cultures that was the whole reason they came up with martial arts the weapons based off farm tools.
How well do you suppose Bela would do punching people while wearing leather armor (max allowed in a city). I'm guessing not so well.
That's my beef with the challenges so far. Most of them are the identical kind of encounter (PC is the active party, knowing location and precisely when he can buff, and challenge is over before his ability to do short duration buffs is exhausted).
A really powerful character isn't going to care if the encounter takes place on the road, in camp at night, on a boat at sea, in a tavern, during horrible weather or in response to a call for help, and he'll be good at 8AM, noon, 5PM and just before he goes to sleep. Most characters do perform a bit under their usual level if woken up in the middle of the night after a tough day.
So as per this quote an inability to defeat an encounter without the precondition of having a weapon ready proves that the build isn't strong?
He might not be AS good in all those circumstances, but he should be able to cope. In my experience the "ok, we're about to enter a cave where we know there are badguys. Lets buff up and kick the door down" is fairly uncommon. I might see it one combat encounter in 8 or 10 (although when it happens, it's often a string of encounters). So a build where most of the resources for the day are spent on 30 minutes of activity seems weak to me, unless it's proven to be "good enough" without all the short duration buffs and "adequate" without the long duration buffs, unless the long duration buffs really can be kept up 24x7.
I won't question your DnD play experience, but I think its far more normal for the PC's to be the active party in an adventure. I would see the players being the passive party being maybe 1 in 10 encounters. Maybe.
Some extreme conditions (underwater, stripped of equipment etc) also highlight power, but they happen rarely enough that I don't seriously expect most builds to operate well. (although Bela in both incarnations considers the risk of being dropped into water suddenly or needing minimal fighting ability there, eg the shockers in the pool and has stuff he can do without any of his equipment but the CR he can handle is lower)
Underwater and naked I can say with 100% confidence the druid is the most powerful build by far. Even with only one of those limitations I'm confident the druid comes out on top.
1. I believe the reason why the encounters encompass a single day is that it is specifically pushing one of the limitations of low level spellcasters, which is their spells per day.
2. I still feel, as I mentioned maybe 50 pages ago, that characters should be submitted and not allowed changes (except for legality), but should all be worked out before an encounter is even posted. This would kill metagaming. In fact, if we are not pressed for time, it should be posted one encounter at a time. These would have to be encounters that truly test a character (ex: an optimized NPC since we're throwing optimized PCs)
3. The problem with the above is that it negates the people who invest skill points in the ability to gather information... or does it? Perhaps that could be written into the adventure. There are 24 hours in a day and I'm sure people could get creative.
4. There is no clear guideline on what is overpowered. If you took a character and gave it to a person who knows how to use it then it can seem overpowered, but if you give it to me (I am fairly new to D&D) then you will most likely have a case of failing miserably. So what is strong: the class, the build or the player? This is a debate we would have in WoW when I played it.
5. I understand what you're saying about a character is powerful at any time, which I agree, but if you get beyond the point of reasonable then there is no point in having this discussion at all because the only overpowered character would be pun-pun and his illegitimate cousins. Then the questions comes up, what is reasonable and who is gonna define it?
6. There are points in this thread where I feel a sense of excitement like something meaningful could come from it, but for at least 70 pages out of it I wish I had the time I spent reading it back because the structure and nitpicking is so ridiculous that it makes me want to quit reading the thread at all. Yet, I read it because I am bored at work and it keeps appearing on the front page.
7. Btw Leo, you should submit that cleric ;)
Thank you for your time in reading this, if you read it.
IHow well do you suppose Bela would do punching people while wearing leather armor (max allowed in a city). I'm guessing not so well.
Oddly enough that's more normal for the real Bela than the fullplate+tower shield version used in this play. He actually plays more often in light armor+2h weapon than heavy armor and in a bar he'd pick up an improvised weapon and do pretty well. If he's fighting people with the same weapon restrictions he's under, then he's going to be stronger and tougher than most. If not, he'll do better until the druid wildshapes, then worse
. Druids are actually very good in cities and in restricted equipment situations, but they do lose a combat round or two. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it does not.Look...I'll do the adventure. I'll state the restrictions just like all the other challenges did, just don't expect them to be the same kinds of restrictions.
So far the only restrictions have been distance between encounters.
Social or legal restrictions are on the table, and time of day is on the table. More environments than "cave" or "overland near a town" are available. The day is 24 hours long. Time pressure is allowed, the PC will not be able to always dictate how long he can spend or exactly when an ecounter will take place. Any time, including rest time, is fair game.
I encourage clever ways of working around restrictions to keep your power level up.
As an example, in a nighttime ambush scenario, those who camp in a rope trick will have an easier time than those who sleep alone, without even a mount or familiar to warn them of danger. Those who can operate without needing to sleep will do the best. Precautions may or may not help, depending on the opposition. (sometimes a rope trick is immune to notice and assault, sometimes not, sometimes they detect the end of the trail, detect magic and wait outside for it to war off....)
I think it will take me two separate adventures to really explore the kind of gaming environment I'm used to in this setting and have enough encounters to really test most builds. I'll also try to make it possible to use clever spells, skills, abilities to give the PC more control over the situation. A PC that blunders into everything will have to be stronger than one who has some ability to notice things, avoid notice or bypass the usual approaches to doing things.
We can agree that not all GM styles are the same. If the cave encounters match your conception of what D&D is, then that's cool, maybe you'll understand why characters designed to nova for 30 minutes don't seem as strong to other posters who experience more variation in the kinds of encounters we face.
Likewise I find the small details of posted builds to be interesting in the expectations individual players have of what a solo adventurer has to be prepared for. My character has to be able to live off the land, cope with extreme temperatures, sleep in armor (because he can't put it on by himself) and survive being dunked in water, because those are things that can just end a solo character in my experience. But he can't spend too much on that, or he is incapable of fighting the combat threats.
Level 5 Bela, for example, would have to abandon fullplate or be fatigued after his first day away from a population center. Were there a level 5 version of the desert adventure, he'd be doing most of it in light armor.
Actually, since I forgot to buy him sleeping armor, he'd be doing it Spartan style...shield and bare naked until he got to the crypt, where he'd get mage armor.
Other people have other ideas. I worry though that the builds have been skewed too much to one category of encounter. I hope to be proved wrong.
So what is strong: the class, the build or the player?
In normal play, of the three the player matters most, then the build. Class is just a toolkit for the build.
As an example, the druid by itself isn't a fleshraker druid build, and the cleric isn't a DMM cleric. Most druids and most clerics would just die on these solo adventures (and most fighters, etc). It's the combination of the class with specific choices of feats, spells and class feature options (eg, fleshraker dinosaur, not a leapard; greenbound summoning, not just augment summoning) that make the build powerful.
My own build is centered around cheap mundane armor, unusually high hitpoints due to reckless rage and unusually high strength due to reckless rage, with expertise and power attack to make the most of the basic framework. The only fillip is that I have high strength, so I can give myself a ranged threat with only one feat (power throw), so I did that too. Because it's a solo character it MUST be able to heal, hence the ranger dip. Because it is a solo character it can't afford big weaknesses in will save, hence the hexblade dip. Both hexblade and ranger allow cheap consumables that simulate what can be done with potions or permanent equipment or party buffs that are not available to a solo player on DMG wealth.
Compared to the "real" Bela, he's got a similar framework but his equipment and skill emphasis is totally different. In a party he doesn't have to sweat wilderness survival but may want to emphasize more trapfinding and alertness abilities. "real" Bela has 2 beguiler levels instead of hexblade+ranger, because that gives him roguelike abilities while still being able to be a 8 charisma fullplate goon. (scout with invis+silence someday. use detect traps, detect secret doors and charm person to simulate rogue skills etc). He's actually in the "rogue" role not "melee" role most of the time, using rage instead of sneak attack to give similar melee damage output. The demands of a shared campaign are different than solo, and all of these builds are "solo" builds.
In these solo challenges, I think we're trying to demonstrate the build, but player skills leak in. The trick Bela does often vs 5' reach monsters where he tanglefoots them, gets reach (by weapon or enlarge) and beats on them isn't one I've seen anyone else use and without it any melee build is going to lose an option that trivializes many fights. There is a lot in how he plays that requires subtle timing of when to switch from defensive to offensive mode, melee to missile mode, using a mount etc that require an experienced melee player. Most people who have played a melee are comfortable with most of these techniques.
As for the definition of overpowered, I agree with the original concepts. Any character that can do 4-5 encounters of equal CR is quite powerful, more powerful than is really needed by a typical D&D party. It's impressive to defeat any CR6 or CR7 encounters with a level 5 character. My best attempts with a noncaster got only 50/50 success rates at those levels, and I expect the CR7 rate would go down if I ran Level 5 Bela through the desert fight (his CR7 victories were against well equipped kobolds...). He might lose all of them. The scorpion maybe he'd win with hit and run via horse archery if he got initiative. The other 3 would probably just kill him.
Not sure if you noticed, but my ranger had a set of sleeping armor for just such circumstances ... I actually have bought such armor for other characters if they don't ... the extra 4 ac sometimes makes a difference ... and at 100 gp, its cheap.
Yes, my characters normally walk around with their weapons in hand when exploring -- thats when random encounters happen. I don't in cities where this is forbidden, but that is not where we are adventuring
Grizley, how intelligent should a 0 int creature get played? Can you post the tactics I should use for the scorpion? I used what the SRD said for the scorpion as well as what the encounter said ... however, I could easily be wrong -- which is why I am only posting one enounter at a time, instead of wasting time if I do it in a way that the consensus disagrees ... but just remember, it took 3 rounds, and would you feel differently if I missed the AoO and was grapple/killed?
The 4 points of armor usually don't matter much anyway. In these solo challenges weak armor is rarely better than no armor.
I'm with you Meyers. My monk considers roads exceptionally dangerous and has carried a reach weapon out routinely on them since level 3. I've never had a DM give me crap about that, but I know the sentiment exists. I've seen a whole thread about it once on some board or other.
You'll notice though that Bela never carries more than one reach weapon except when mounted (and then his mount is holding both). I have a personal quibble that I can't imagine a character "stowing" more than one reach weapon (and even just one you look like those guys in japanese and chinese war movies with the flag attached to their backs). I've had GM's with even harsher restrictions (you can't sheathe a reach weapon at all, you carry or drop it or store it on a mount, those are your choices). But the way I've played it here is my personal preference.
I think we all need to trust the personal preferences on grey rules and keep the nitpicks on actual rules violations. If Meyer's experience is that he can have weapons out on roads, lets not quibble. If Grizley had direct rules support that prohibited or limited such behavior then fine, Meyer's warrior has to find another way to win. Without it, lets not fuss. There is no DM beyond restrictions adventure authors put in the settings, and the nitpicks on grey area stuff detract from the fun.
My default "programming" for such monsters is when facing a single opponent to always try to grapple at full capability, but when facing multiple opponents they grapple at -20, so other limbs are free to face other threats.
I think a bear would stop trying to grapple after the first close quarters combat slash, as even animals stop doing tactics that got them hurt, but a mindless creature like an ooze or vermin would stick to its programming.
These are just what I use though. Different GM's have different approaches.
I think the reason I didn't buy sleeping armor was that I figured that he was hosed if he ever changed out of his armor anyway. Mostly though I didn't think of it. Bela was equipped with the Dragon and Hydra challenges in mind figuring I could do minor tweaks to equipment with different intel at the start and when I was later told not to change equipment I didn't fix that oversight.
The 4 points of armor usually don't matter much anyway. In these solo challenges weak armor is rarely better than no armor.
re: sleeping armor -- Ah, that makes sense. Personally, I think of sleeping armor like I do backup non-magical weapons, too cheap to ignore. Now, at higher levels, when you put "calling" on your armor, or use that one ring that swaps out your equipment -- or if you can afford to have a spellcaster cast lesser restoration on you (etc) then sleeping armor is no longer needed ...
Yes, 4 points of armor is normally not much for these adventures/encounters -- but for a normal character -- it is terrific.
Second, I must say in my parties we assume that in the wilderness the weapon is always in the hand, even when sleeping. In a world full of dangers not having your sword at ready is a death sentence.
This is, what was the last time someone asked the caster to waste an action retrieving his spell components?
I asked a spellcaster to retrieve spell components earlier in this thread when they were grappled ... other than that, never, as it is part of casting the spell.
Doesn't fly. You are equating having a feat with being able to use it at all times. By that logic all casters start all ambushes prebuffed because they paid build resources for it.
The difference is that combat reflexes + close quarter fighting are "always on" abilities, like the DMM persisted spells ... those would be examples of a caster pre-buffed.
Non 24 hour spells would be the equivalent of potions/scrolls for Bela, i.e. things that are not up pre-ambush.
Polearms? How many medival cities do you think allowed even what DnD would call a dagger? In asian cultures that was the whole reason they came up with martial arts the weapons based off farm tools.
I have yet to adventure in a city where I could not carry a weapon. I have, however, been in cities where a peace knot is tied on the weapon, which required a full round action (provoking) to untie.
How well do you suppose Bela would do punching people while wearing leather armor (max allowed in a city). I'm guessing not so well.
I haven't experienced this either, but I have experienced "No armor heavier than light" in a city. (Glamored armor was terrific for the heavy armor people in the party).
So as per this quote an inability to defeat an encounter without the precondition of having a weapon ready proves that the build isn't strong?
You are correct ... if my character is denied use of all three of his weapons, then he will probably lose to encounters. I say probably, as he defeated the swarm (immune to weapon damage).
Underwater and naked I can say with 100% confidence the druid is the most powerful build by far. Even with only one of those limitations I'm confident the druid comes out on top.
At the bottom of the lake, I fully agree, the druid would wildshape and swim away. Close to the surface, I fail to see how the druid could beat the DMM cleric. The DR (I think) is just about high enough to get rid of the poison, the acid resistance should be able to take care of some/most of the acid, and that one balor's spell should take care of grapples ...
Oh please, I don't need spellcraft to know that two dinosaurs, one large, one medium, with acid dripping from their claws instead of poison and glowing scales is probably a druid's buffed companion and a druid and they're probably buffed to the eyeballs. This is especially true if one or more is wearing equipment or barding.
Especially if I made an easy listen check when all that prebuffing was going on. Animal growth in particular.
(without animal growth, you won't be grappling squat. Anything size large like ancestral dwarf isn't grappleable with improved grab, and you have to hit to use improved grab. If you're using touch attacks, a simple AOO prevents it down....there is no improved grapple on the fleshraker builds...and finally the grapple mod without animal growth is nothing special)
Can you remind me again how the level 5 druid is using animal growth (5th level spell, 9th level caster) -- post the poll/rule change to disallow spells of a higher level than a single classed character can cast?
There is no DM beyond restrictions adventure authors put in the settings, and the nitpicks on grey area stuff detract from the fun.
They are Meyer's specialty. He has posted more completely retarded nitpicks than I can count. Remeber "Dogs are domestic and fleshrakers aren't even though the MM specifically says they are."? Or maybe, "You can't hire a villager to put stuff on for you, the Manticore might kill it". Even "The Manticore can hide in plain sight, while flying, at speed." Yeah, Meyer is full of those sort of things.
His standards are blatantly biased and I doubt anyone would read the thread and then argue otherwise.
If you do your first round tactics in your second round you die. I can't help but think there is some metagaming going on here. The only way can live is if you single attack and tumble the first round followed up by a full attack on the second round. If you use either tactic in both rounds you die. If you were rolling and couldn't predict the dice rolls you would lose.
If you full attack the first round you get grabbed, miss the cqf and die. If you tumble in the second round you get grabbed and miss cqf and die.
My turn. I rage, single attack (+12 vs ac 20, 65%, 120%, missing) and tumble backwards 15' (+10 vs dc15 = 75%).
End of Round 1: Me: 22.5, It: 58.5
Meyer, just to check, does your rage variant allow you to use Dex-based skills while raging? You normally can't tumble while raging.
2) I have it trying to initiate grapples each round, which is not smart, but it has a 0 int and this is what the creature is described as doing, so I do not see a problem with this.
If it had Int 1, I'd say it would stop, but Int 0 is mindless - they can't learn from their experiences. I agree with you on this one.
Meyer, just to check, does your rage variant allow you to use Dex-based skills while raging? You normally can't tumble while raging.
According to the SRD. Nope.
Good catch.
If you look at the 'huge threads' that are going on, I can think of three major ones currently alive.
- The Pun-Pun thread.
- Ask a simple question
- This thread, like pretty much every other gauntlet thread.
These threads become huge, mainly because you get multiple characters getting nitpicked and subjected to trial-by-fire going through multiple gauntlets - all in one thread. Saying "make another thread" won't cut it because it just becomes the same type of thing. Look at the Lockdown thread. It was created as a result of the druid vs. fighter thread, and it drew the same sort of wars.
They will always exist. People are always going to say "I wonder how these builds/classes/abilities compare in a gauntlet/arena environment - Let's test it.
I think this issue is greater than thread-by-thread. We need something larger, and if that larger thing already exists it needs to be brought into greater prominence.
Another note on the scorpion.
If you do your first round tactics in your second round you die. I can't help but think there is some metagaming going on here. The only way can live is if you single attack and tumble the first round followed up by a full attack on the second round. If you use either tactic in both rounds you die. If you were rolling and couldn't predict the dice rolls you would lose.
If you full attack the first round you get grabbed, miss the cqf and die. If you tumble in the second round you get grabbed and miss cqf and die.
You probably won't believe this, but I was not metagaming for the tactics ... however, as someone else reminded me, I cannot tumble while raging so I redid the fight, as it was illegal.
In fact, that AoO allowed me to kill it one round earlier ... (I posted the corrected tactics) - which goes to show that there was more than one way to kill it. (The safer approach would have been to tumble backwards, then rage. The difference would have been a 10% less value in the to-hit accumulator, which did not affect anything -- which would be a second approach I could use to kill the scorpion -- it would have been even better to use my Rabid Wolf Strike round 1, it would have missed, but added another 20% to the accumulator (i.e. better tactics than I used)).
But one objection for my character is how close to losing it is most fights ... bad die rolls will kill it ...
then using Manyjaws as an auto-hit effect - just barely - using a Focused Specialist Evoker ( not exactly the strongest guy around. )
I took out Necro, Enchantment and Illusion-- which seriously hurts.
It's possible one could take out the first encounter simply using Summon Swarm, followed by Invisibility... or possible with a single Color Spray + CdG. Oh well.
I did find out hitting anything with a Ranged Touch is still quite tricky at lv5.
All in all, I find running this as a mock encounter is really quite enlightening. What I want for christmas is really someone to stand between me and the big monster coming at me - or something that takes this thing out on one hit.
First, the -20 rule is only for some monsters who specifically say so.
Actually it is in the improved grab rules explicitly. All monsters with improved grab get the option, and nobody else does barring an unusual rules item (you won't find the rule mentioned on any critter without improved grab). I think scorpion's grasp feat is an example of a non-improved-grab grapple that allows the -20.
More Monster Manual glossary stuff:
"Improved Grab (Ex): ... The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.... "
Can you remind me again how the level 5 druid is using animal growth (5th level spell, 9th level caster) -- post the poll/rule change to disallow spells of a higher level than a single classed character can cast?
He can't, but the entry still has it listed in the statblocks and has not redone any fights. He can't use it in L7 either.
All in all, I find running this as a mock encounter is really quite enlightening. What I want for christmas is really someone to stand between me and the big monster coming at me - or something that takes this thing out on one hit.
Yeah. The grunt melees appreciate the ability of casters to nova or buff/heal them to make the fight last long enough for steady damage to win.
The boom casters need to either become invulnerable or win really, really quickly.
D&D is very hard without a team. That's what makes it fun as an optomization challenge.
I will concede that any build that can do this one solo is overpowered
I'm pretty sure Bela will die, although it is possible level 7 Bela could do the CR5 version.Adventure name: Full Moon (both CR5 and CR7)
The adventure starts after you've successfully completed an overland mission,
perhaps guarding a caravan or doing courier duty. It is 12 hours after dawn and
you've finished your business and are relaxing in a tavern, eating dinner and
drinking if that's the sort of thing you do. Most of your fellow adventurers have
scattered, but the BDF (Big Dumb Fighter) Elmo is sharing an ale with you.
Nothing happened today on the road, so only routine buffs are expended. Note that 12 hours includes 1 hour to wake up and memorize spells, an hour to break camp, more time after travel to sell goods, get paid off, find a tavern/inn/stables etc.
City Rules
Show
If you do all-day buffs by recasting hour/level buffs, note resources burned
and spells you might have running.
You are in a major walled city. Domestic animals are allowed but not in taverns,
they mostly live in stables or kennels. Wild animals size large or smaller are allowed but
must be muzzled or equivalent on streets and you're responsible for their actions. Wild
animal "stables" are reinforced with iron.. Size huge or larger animals aren't allowed in city
but there is a person who will stable them outside the walls safely. He will also store corporeal undead for you. Incorporeals aren't allowed anywhere...dismiss them if you summon them after combat.
Muzzled means bite attacks can't happen without removing (full round) but claws are free.
All animals must be on leash (or bridle and ridden or lead)
Pole arms and projectile weapons aren't permitted to be carried openly on the
streets but you're allowed to bundle them up and store them in a home or rented
room (they'd be in your room at the inn, or with your scary wartrained steed if
you feel paranoid). Weapons other than quarterstaves, clubs or "light" type
weapons are supposed to be peacebonded. (full round action to release).
Pole arms are any inflexible reach weapon. Spike chain and whips are peacebonded.
Throwing weapons are considered "light", including splash weapons.
Weapon/animal laws can be reversed if you are working for the city (they have
licenses, often temporary). You can forge a license with DC20 forgery check
that will defeat most guard's skills. You can generally bribe a guard to
"overlook" a non-peacebonded weapon with diplomacy DC25 (dc20 for a large
bribe, ie not measured in silver). You can pretend you have a license with
bluff skill (opposed roll, sense motive on guards is +1). You can fake
a peace bond with a disguise check, opposed by guard spot of +3.
Weapon/Animal Licenses are not available for sale. They're issued as needed only.
Magic like a hat of disguise can easily conceal illegal weapons and fake peacebonds.
Spellcasting is legal, but you're responsible for injuries or property damage
just as with animals or swinging an axe around (or throwing alch fire).
Self defense or defense of others is reason enough to use lethal force,
but only if the opposition is using lethal force. Most injuries or property
damage can be settled "out of court" by reimbursing the victim with enough
cash to repair/buy healing or alternately to cast spells that fix the damage
or heal the injured - a failed diplomacy check of 15 might mean an additional
"pain and suffering" fee to them. Players need to use judgement on fines.
If you do all-day buffs by recasting hour/level buffs, note resources burned
and spells you might have running.
You are in a major walled city. Domestic animals are allowed but not in taverns,
they mostly live in stables or kennels. Wild animals size large or smaller are allowed but
must be muzzled or equivalent on streets and you're responsible for their actions. Wild
animal "stables" are reinforced with iron.. Size huge or larger animals aren't allowed in city
but there is a person who will stable them outside the walls safely. He will also store corporeal undead for you. Incorporeals aren't allowed anywhere...dismiss them if you summon them after combat.
Muzzled means bite attacks can't happen without removing (full round) but claws are free.
All animals must be on leash (or bridle and ridden or lead)
Pole arms and projectile weapons aren't permitted to be carried openly on the
streets but you're allowed to bundle them up and store them in a home or rented
room (they'd be in your room at the inn, or with your scary wartrained steed if
you feel paranoid). Weapons other than quarterstaves, clubs or "light" type
weapons are supposed to be peacebonded. (full round action to release).
Pole arms are any inflexible reach weapon. Spike chain and whips are peacebonded.
Throwing weapons are considered "light", including splash weapons.
Weapon/animal laws can be reversed if you are working for the city (they have
licenses, often temporary). You can forge a license with DC20 forgery check
that will defeat most guard's skills. You can generally bribe a guard to
"overlook" a non-peacebonded weapon with diplomacy DC25 (dc20 for a large
bribe, ie not measured in silver). You can pretend you have a license with
bluff skill (opposed roll, sense motive on guards is +1). You can fake
a peace bond with a disguise check, opposed by guard spot of +3.
Weapon/Animal Licenses are not available for sale. They're issued as needed only.
Magic like a hat of disguise can easily conceal illegal weapons and fake peacebonds.
Spellcasting is legal, but you're responsible for injuries or property damage
just as with animals or swinging an axe around (or throwing alch fire).
Self defense or defense of others is reason enough to use lethal force,
but only if the opposition is using lethal force. Most injuries or property
damage can be settled "out of court" by reimbursing the victim with enough
cash to repair/buy healing or alternately to cast spells that fix the damage
or heal the injured - a failed diplomacy check of 15 might mean an additional
"pain and suffering" fee to them. Players need to use judgement on fines.
Ok...here's what I consider to be a "normal" adventure. It's probably suicide but is the sort of thing a team of adventurers would normally be facing. The encounters sometimes need a lot of explanation so be patient. You can be homicidal or a nice guy and still make it through the adventure, if you're tough enough.
Adventure name: Full Moon (both CR5 and CR7)
The adventure starts after you've successfully completed an overland mission,
perhaps guarding a caravan or doing courier duty. It is 12 hours after dawn and you've finished your business and are relaxing in a tavern, eating dinner and drinking if that's the sort of thing you do.
What resources were expended during the 12 hour caravan duty? For instance, did my multiclass character rage today, etc. This is actually quite important.
Pole arms and projectile weapons aren't permitted to be carried openly on the streets but you're allowed to bundle them up and store them in a home or rented room (they'd be in your room at the inn, or with your scary wartrained steed if you feel paranoid). Weapons other than quarterstaves, clubs or "light" type weapons are supposed to be peacebonded. (full round action to release).
You mention pole-arms, does "pole-arm" mean reach weapon, as a spiked chain is not a pole-arm (no pole).
Weapon/animal laws can be reversed if you are working for the city (they have licenses, often temporary). You can forge a license with DC20 forgery check that will defeat most guard's skills. You can generally bribe a guard to "overlook" a non-peacebonded weapon with diplomacy DC25 (dc20 for a large bribe, ie not measured in silver). You can pretend you have a license with bluff skill (opposed roll, sense motive on guards is +1). You can fake a peace bond with a disguise check, opposed by guard spot of +3.
Are they available for purchase upon entering the town?
Encounter 1
You face a Werebear in a confined area with lots of innocents.If you stay in its face, it won't go after other people, if you back off it will start going after others. The Werebear is in Hybrid form but its weapon is peacebonded and the wrong size so it will just fight with claw/claw/bite. Note that it does not have improved grab in hybrid form. It will attempt touch attack to grapple if it goes two rounds after getting nohits but will only attempt the tactic for one round and if it doesn't workwill revert to normal attack methods.
What is the dimensions of the room, where are the tables/etc, how far away are we from the werebear, etc ...
The werebear already has power attack ... so would not select it for CR7.
How does this encounter start?
Surprise Round: Change Shape?
Round 1: Roll for init?
or something else? (i.e. need to know if it is flatfooted for the first round)
Encounter 2
What are the dimensions of the encounter areas? For instance, if the fight is in the alleyway, a 5' alley prevents enlarge person -- whereas a 10' alley allows enlarge person.
Is the room we are in wooden? (fireball stuff) ... is the floor strong enough to hold an enlarge person? (I have actually broken through the floor before in an adventure, not fun).
Encounter 3
The assassins only go for their own PC. If Julia is still alive the party will have a +2/+2 bardsong for the first 5 rounds. The NPC's all get killed and their assassins vanish. The PC may or may not win.
What assassins? The elementals? Does this mean that we could run the other two party members in addition to our character?
Encounter 4
Confusion
How do we handle confusion? Do we roll? Do you post the rolls before hand?
Encounter 5
Looks good ... I assume wide-open area, no trees to worry about ...
Is he an afflicted lycanthrope, or natural? I'm guessing afflicted, since the natural ones normally never change involuntarily.
I have some questions about this ....
What resources were expended during the 12 hour caravan duty? For instance, did my multiclass character rage today, etc. This is actually quite important.
You mention pole-arms, does "pole-arm" mean reach weapon, as a spiked chain is not a pole-arm (no pole).
Are they available for purchase upon entering the town?
What is the dimensions of the room, where are the tables/etc, how far away are we from the werebear, etc ...
The werebear already has power attack ... so would not select it for CR7.
How does this encounter start?
Surprise Round: Change Shape?
Round 1: Roll for init?
or something else? (i.e. need to know if it is flatfooted for the first round)
What are the dimensions of the encounter areas? For instance, if the fight is in the alleyway, a 5' alley prevents enlarge person -- whereas a 10' alley allows enlarge person.
Is the room we are in wooden? (fireball stuff) ... is the floor strong enough to hold an enlarge person? (I have actually broken through the floor before in an adventure, not fun).
What assassins? The elementals? Does this mean that we could run the other two party members in addition to our character?
How do we handle confusion? Do we roll? Do you post the rolls before hand?
Looks good ... I assume wide-open area, no trees to worry about ...
I've updated the adventure to include all of the following.
answers to above questions are in order, below
Show
Nothing happened today on the road, so only routine buffs are expended. Note that 12 hours includes 1 hour to wake up and memorize spells, an hour to break camp, more time after travel to sell goods, get paid off, find a tavern/inn/stables etc.
Pole arms are any inflexible reach weapon. Spike chain and whips are peacebonded.
Throwing weapons are considered "light", including splash weapons.
Weapon/Animal Licenses are not available for sale. They're issued as needed only.
The tavern is 30x40. You were at the bar next to Elmo so you two start out next to
each other. There are several small tables and chairs if you need improvised weapons.
The bar contains a dozen other patrons plus the bartender and a barmaid. Three
of the other patrons start in reach of the bear, 6 if you consider 5' steps. After the first
round, on initiative zero, patrons try to flee, and bartender and barmaid retreat to cellar.
If you are not engaged with the werebear though, it will pursue. It will kill two people
on the first round and one in each following round (move and swat) if you aren't in full
attack range. After two rounds of keeping its attention, it won't have any other targets
but the PC so you can move if you want to.
An alleyway is 5' wide. Buildings are mostly wood construction, and stables
have straw floors on the mud so fireballs are not recommended. Stables have
10' high ceiling and 10' wide corridors between stalls. Kennels are still 10' high
but only 5' wide corridors between kennels (medium or smaller animals). If
fighting near your room at the inn, the inn room is 10x20, corridors 5' wide and
there are 3 rooms on the floor, all empty and unlocked at the time (probably
rented by Julia and Antonia)
I've reworded the assassin encounter a bit to make it clear I'm talking about
the elementals (they're the assassins). The NPC's have no chance against
these creatures….they die round two, 200' distant from the PC, or 100' if you
didn't get swept up. You get only the benefit of their pre-fight stuff, as noted
in the text. (and their equipment if you survive). If you somehow keep them
alive I guess you can use them in later encounters.
For confusion, roll on the table with the honor system and post results.
Initial range for the final encounter is 40', there is underbrush etc providing
total concelament beyond those ranges. This works both ways, it is fairly easy
to retreat. The CR5 monsters don't pursue, the CR7 will pursue, most likely using teleport+hide
The underbrush provides 20% concealment beyond 20' but does not hinder movement.
The twinned trees have a huge canopy (20' radius from center) that has killed off any
competing trees. A few stunted trees are in the 20-40' radius, then forest is normal
after that.
Nothing happened today on the road, so only routine buffs are expended. Note that 12 hours includes 1 hour to wake up and memorize spells, an hour to break camp, more time after travel to sell goods, get paid off, find a tavern/inn/stables etc.
Pole arms are any inflexible reach weapon. Spike chain and whips are peacebonded.
Throwing weapons are considered "light", including splash weapons.
Weapon/Animal Licenses are not available for sale. They're issued as needed only.
The tavern is 30x40. You were at the bar next to Elmo so you two start out next to
each other. There are several small tables and chairs if you need improvised weapons.
The bar contains a dozen other patrons plus the bartender and a barmaid. Three
of the other patrons start in reach of the bear, 6 if you consider 5' steps. After the first
round, on initiative zero, patrons try to flee, and bartender and barmaid retreat to cellar.
If you are not engaged with the werebear though, it will pursue. It will kill two people
on the first round and one in each following round (move and swat) if you aren't in full
attack range. After two rounds of keeping its attention, it won't have any other targets
but the PC so you can move if you want to.
An alleyway is 5' wide. Buildings are mostly wood construction, and stables
have straw floors on the mud so fireballs are not recommended. Stables have
10' high ceiling and 10' wide corridors between stalls. Kennels are still 10' high
but only 5' wide corridors between kennels (medium or smaller animals). If
fighting near your room at the inn, the inn room is 10x20, corridors 5' wide and
there are 3 rooms on the floor, all empty and unlocked at the time (probably
rented by Julia and Antonia)
I've reworded the assassin encounter a bit to make it clear I'm talking about
the elementals (they're the assassins). The NPC's have no chance against
these creatures….they die round two, 200' distant from the PC, or 100' if you
didn't get swept up. You get only the benefit of their pre-fight stuff, as noted
in the text. (and their equipment if you survive). If you somehow keep them
alive I guess you can use them in later encounters.
For confusion, roll on the table with the honor system and post results.
Initial range for the final encounter is 40', there is underbrush etc providing
total concelament beyond those ranges. This works both ways, it is fairly easy
to retreat. The CR5 monsters don't pursue, the CR7 will pursue, most likely using teleport+hide
The underbrush provides 20% concealment beyond 20' but does not hinder movement.
The twinned trees have a huge canopy (20' radius from center) that has killed off any
competing trees. A few stunted trees are in the 20-40' radius, then forest is normal
after that.
Why is this Lawful Good werebear attacking random people and companions? Is this just part of the "plot"?
Is he an afflicted lycanthrope, or natural? I'm guessing afflicted, since the natural ones normally never change involuntarily.
He's natural (the harder kind, use the MMI statblock) and the fact that he lost control like a berserk afflicted one is why there is something to investigate. The fact that he IS lawful good and of good reputation is why encounter 2 falls out the way it does. The way the PC handles this awful situation has consequences later in the adventure.
The cause is tied to the creatures in the final encounter, and to some extent the 4th encounter. Taking bad advice, they did rituals involving moon and dream magic, using the werebear as a catalyst. The high priest thought it would be safe to use a werebear of proven control as catalyst, but as the werebear was also human, and Wild Elves don't care much about humans, didn't feel it was necessary to get permission. The high priest was wrong, much to the delight of those who gave the bad advice.
The reasons don't much matter for this challenge beyond finding the source of the problem. The rituals proved as destructive to the casters as the victim. If the PC identifies the source of the advice steps can be taken to prevent recurrance even if the encoutner five victory isn't clean.
It's important to try to explain stuff, so that if the PC does something bizzare that gets them "off the rails" you can judge if he defeated a challenge or not.
"Alternate" CR 5 dungeon
Original CR 5
Full Moon
Hubert the Wannabe Wizard
Illumian (NaenHoon sigils, RoD), Cloistered Cleric (UA) 2/Dread Necro (HoH) 1/Master of Shrouds (LM) 2
True Neutral, Spontaneously Inflicts
Flavor/background
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Hubert always wanted to be a wizard, like his archmage father, but when he tried out for wizard school, he just wasn't bright enough to master even the simplest cantrip. Dissapointed but resilient, he decided to become a cleric of Boccob. He was unusually studious for a cleric, and due to his enthusiasm for arcane magic, was chosen for a new "experimental" clerical training program (Divine Magician alternative class feature, CMage). Perhaps due to his failure as a wizard, he has become quite dark and brooding, and begin delving heavily into necromancy.
Encounter 1:
Show
Surprise Round:
Werebear changes -- looks threatening. We know he is a threat.
Round 1:
My initiative is higher than his by 7, so I win initiative.
I spent a full round action to un-peacebound the silver spiked chain (I have had this the entire time I have had this character) as I know of my party member's DR/Silver.
I know that Elmo can hit/drop one commoner per round, however, unless they are frail, he cannot kill one a round (12.5 damage per hit, commoners have 4 hps (3 with a con of 8) so they should be safe, as my aura will stabilize each one). Now, without the aura, they would die as I could not help them until after the fight was over ... so, if one gets hurt, it is not the end of the world. If I fall, then a lot more people are going to be killed. This is metagaming, but pre-conditions indicates that we know our buddy quite well. I am excluding Elmo from my healing aura for the time being.
I activate Sudden Leap so that I am now 20' away from the werebear. I do not have the hps to trade full attack for full attack.
Werebear attacks a commoner (95%), dropping it to -8.5, then attacks another commoner (95%, 190%) dropping it to -8.5 (-9.5 if they have a con of 8).
Commoners begin to flee, the two that are dropped stabilize and gain 1 hp.
End of Round 1: Me: Full with weapon, It: Full, 2 commoners down (-7.5), 2 commoners ready to flee.
Round 2:
I rage and drink a potion of enlarge person and now threaten the bear.
Per mini-adventure, it moves (provoking). I attack (+11 vs ac 10, 95%, hit) attempting to trip it, (+9(str)+4(size) vs 8(str)+4(size)+2(weapon), 55%, success). It now stands up, provoking (AC 13 vs +4+8-1-4, 75, 170%), I attack it for subdual damage (2d6+1d6+12-1 = 7+3.5+12-1) 21.5 points of damage, ending its turn.
Commoners flee (3 rounds total) or gain 1 hp.
End of Round 2: Me: Full, Large, Rage, with Weapon. Werebear: 62 (21.5 subdual), 2 commoners (-7.5), commoners (1 round remaining to run)
Round 3:
I active burning blade and full attack the werebear (ac 17 vs 4+8-1, 75%, 245) miss and (75%, 320%) hit for 28 lethal damage.
It needs to move to attack anyone. This provokes from me (75%, 395%) hit for 21.5 damage. It is now unconscious (but not dying).
If it had been able to 5' step to attack me, fire riposte would have activated, knocking it unconscious anyway.
End of round 3: Me: Full, 2 Commoners: (-6.5), rest of commoners (fleeing). Wearbear (unconscious).
Next few rounds, while I am tying him up, the commoners are regaining consciousness and eventually end up 2 hps (possibly more if their con is 12 or greater).
Rage wears off, enlarge person wears off, I recover from my rage and regain my maneuvers.
Werebear changes -- looks threatening. We know he is a threat.
Round 1:
My initiative is higher than his by 7, so I win initiative.
I spent a full round action to un-peacebound the silver spiked chain (I have had this the entire time I have had this character) as I know of my party member's DR/Silver.
I know that Elmo can hit/drop one commoner per round, however, unless they are frail, he cannot kill one a round (12.5 damage per hit, commoners have 4 hps (3 with a con of 8) so they should be safe, as my aura will stabilize each one). Now, without the aura, they would die as I could not help them until after the fight was over ... so, if one gets hurt, it is not the end of the world. If I fall, then a lot more people are going to be killed. This is metagaming, but pre-conditions indicates that we know our buddy quite well. I am excluding Elmo from my healing aura for the time being.
I activate Sudden Leap so that I am now 20' away from the werebear. I do not have the hps to trade full attack for full attack.
Werebear attacks a commoner (95%), dropping it to -8.5, then attacks another commoner (95%, 190%) dropping it to -8.5 (-9.5 if they have a con of 8).
Commoners begin to flee, the two that are dropped stabilize and gain 1 hp.
End of Round 1: Me: Full with weapon, It: Full, 2 commoners down (-7.5), 2 commoners ready to flee.
Round 2:
I rage and drink a potion of enlarge person and now threaten the bear.
Per mini-adventure, it moves (provoking). I attack (+11 vs ac 10, 95%, hit) attempting to trip it, (+9(str)+4(size) vs 8(str)+4(size)+2(weapon), 55%, success). It now stands up, provoking (AC 13 vs +4+8-1-4, 75, 170%), I attack it for subdual damage (2d6+1d6+12-1 = 7+3.5+12-1) 21.5 points of damage, ending its turn.
Commoners flee (3 rounds total) or gain 1 hp.
End of Round 2: Me: Full, Large, Rage, with Weapon. Werebear: 62 (21.5 subdual), 2 commoners (-7.5), commoners (1 round remaining to run)
Round 3:
I active burning blade and full attack the werebear (ac 17 vs 4+8-1, 75%, 245) miss and (75%, 320%) hit for 28 lethal damage.
It needs to move to attack anyone. This provokes from me (75%, 395%) hit for 21.5 damage. It is now unconscious (but not dying).
If it had been able to 5' step to attack me, fire riposte would have activated, knocking it unconscious anyway.
End of round 3: Me: Full, 2 Commoners: (-6.5), rest of commoners (fleeing). Wearbear (unconscious).
Next few rounds, while I am tying him up, the commoners are regaining consciousness and eventually end up 2 hps (possibly more if their con is 12 or greater).
Rage wears off, enlarge person wears off, I recover from my rage and regain my maneuvers.
Hubert casts an Extended (NaenHoon, uses 1 rebuke attempt) Unseen Servant and uses a scroll of False Life (8.5 temp hit points). He sets out at night, and has the Unseen Servant carry the dummy, with the Everburning Torch attached as described in the generic tactics for the character. Hubert slinks along behind it, hiding.
The griffon and bugbear will spot the "decoy" first, due to the torch it has. I'll assume they attack it first, but then quickly realize their error. This is the surprize round.
Show
Surprize Round- Bugbear and Griffon attack decoy. Due to their darkvision, and assuming there is no cover or concealment (Plains) for him to hide in, they then see Hubert.
Round 1- Bugbear is the rider, so we'll use his initiative. Both he and Hubert have a +1, but we'll say the Bugbear goes first. It and the griffon charge.
Bugbear hits (+7 vs AC 18, so 50%/100) for 6.5.
Griffon attacks (+13 (75%)/+10 (65%)/+10/+10/+10) hits (75/100) for 11, misses (140/200), hits (205/300) for 4.5, hits (270/300) for 5.5, misses (335/400).
Hubert casts Invisibility defensively (DC 17, +10 conc, so he succeeds 70/100) and moves towards the Unseen Servant. In the rounds after this, he remains within 30 feet of the Unseen Servant while moving.
Total damage taken is 27.5, leaving Hubert with 13 hit points.
Round 2
The griffon uses a move action to scent his direction, and another to move within 5' of him. The bugbear swings blindly at him and misses (+5 vs. AC 19, 35%, 85/200, 50/100 would have bypassed Concealment).
Hubert moves away, drawing his wand of Faith Healing, and uses a charge from it, healing himself 9 points.
Hubert is at 22/32.
Round 3
The griffon finds Hubert's direction again with a move, and flies next to him. The bugbear swings again, but misses due to concealment (100/200).
Hubert uses another charge from his wand, healing himself 9 points, and moves again.
Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 4
Griffon scents Hubert's direction, and moves adjacent to him. Bugbear swings and misses again (150/200 concealment, 120/200 attack).
Hubert moves again and summons a Shadow (round 5/5). It attacks the griffon and hits (+3 vs. 11, 65/100) doing 3.5 Str damage. The griffon's Str is now 15, and its light load drops to 198. It is likely encumbered by its rider and his gear (not sure how much a bugbear weighs, but they have +4 Str and +2 Con, so they're fairly hefty I'd think). I think I read somewhere that a mount can't fly if it has a medium or heavier load, but I can't find where this was stated now.
Round 5/5 summoning. Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 5
The griffon scents Hubert's direction with a move, and moves next to him. The Shadow misses on its AoO (130/200). The bugbear swings wildly again at Hubert (200/300 concealment, misses).
Hubert stows his wand and moves
Round 4/5 summoned shadow. Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 6
The griffon scents and moves. The shadow hits on its AoO (still +5 from charging, 215/200) doing another 3.5 Str damage to the griffon, which brings the griffon to 7.5 and makes it heavily encumbered and perhaps over its heavy encumberance limit. The bugbear swings (250/300 concealment, 155/200) and hits for 6.5.
Hubert moves and draws his scrolls (they're all on the same parchment). The shadow charges and hits the griffon again (290/300), dropping its Str to 4. It can no longer carry the hobgoblin, and falls down.
Hubert is at 24.5/32. Round 3/5 summoning.
Round 7
The hobgoblin realizes he is screwed, and dismounts from the griffon, which then begins to fly away (single move left, 20 feet climbing upwards). The shadow hits the griffon on its AoO (375/400), dropping it to 0.5 Str. The hobgoblin runs.
The shadow charges the griffon, and kills it (460/500).
Surprize Round- Bugbear and Griffon attack decoy. Due to their darkvision, and assuming there is no cover or concealment (Plains) for him to hide in, they then see Hubert.
Round 1- Bugbear is the rider, so we'll use his initiative. Both he and Hubert have a +1, but we'll say the Bugbear goes first. It and the griffon charge.
Bugbear hits (+7 vs AC 18, so 50%/100) for 6.5.
Griffon attacks (+13 (75%)/+10 (65%)/+10/+10/+10) hits (75/100) for 11, misses (140/200), hits (205/300) for 4.5, hits (270/300) for 5.5, misses (335/400).
Hubert casts Invisibility defensively (DC 17, +10 conc, so he succeeds 70/100) and moves towards the Unseen Servant. In the rounds after this, he remains within 30 feet of the Unseen Servant while moving.
Total damage taken is 27.5, leaving Hubert with 13 hit points.
Round 2
The griffon uses a move action to scent his direction, and another to move within 5' of him. The bugbear swings blindly at him and misses (+5 vs. AC 19, 35%, 85/200, 50/100 would have bypassed Concealment).
Hubert moves away, drawing his wand of Faith Healing, and uses a charge from it, healing himself 9 points.
Hubert is at 22/32.
Round 3
The griffon finds Hubert's direction again with a move, and flies next to him. The bugbear swings again, but misses due to concealment (100/200).
Hubert uses another charge from his wand, healing himself 9 points, and moves again.
Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 4
Griffon scents Hubert's direction, and moves adjacent to him. Bugbear swings and misses again (150/200 concealment, 120/200 attack).
Hubert moves again and summons a Shadow (round 5/5). It attacks the griffon and hits (+3 vs. 11, 65/100) doing 3.5 Str damage. The griffon's Str is now 15, and its light load drops to 198. It is likely encumbered by its rider and his gear (not sure how much a bugbear weighs, but they have +4 Str and +2 Con, so they're fairly hefty I'd think). I think I read somewhere that a mount can't fly if it has a medium or heavier load, but I can't find where this was stated now.
Round 5/5 summoning. Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 5
The griffon scents Hubert's direction with a move, and moves next to him. The Shadow misses on its AoO (130/200). The bugbear swings wildly again at Hubert (200/300 concealment, misses).
Hubert stows his wand and moves
Round 4/5 summoned shadow. Hubert is at 31/32.
Round 6
The griffon scents and moves. The shadow hits on its AoO (still +5 from charging, 215/200) doing another 3.5 Str damage to the griffon, which brings the griffon to 7.5 and makes it heavily encumbered and perhaps over its heavy encumberance limit. The bugbear swings (250/300 concealment, 155/200) and hits for 6.5.
Hubert moves and draws his scrolls (they're all on the same parchment). The shadow charges and hits the griffon again (290/300), dropping its Str to 4. It can no longer carry the hobgoblin, and falls down.
Hubert is at 24.5/32. Round 3/5 summoning.
Round 7
The hobgoblin realizes he is screwed, and dismounts from the griffon, which then begins to fly away (single move left, 20 feet climbing upwards). The shadow hits the griffon on its AoO (375/400), dropping it to 0.5 Str. The hobgoblin runs.
The shadow charges the griffon, and kills it (460/500).
Your standard action in the supprise round vs the elementals is to draw two potions and toss them to two people who both take them? That seems like an awful lot of stuff to do.
Not to mention the problems with the first encounter.
Let me get this right Meyer.
Your standard action in the supprise round vs the elementals is to draw two potions and toss them to two people who both take them? That seems like an awful lot of stuff to do.
Not to mention the problems with the first encounter.
Good point ... the potions might take too long to do that (move to retrieve, free to drop into other people's hands (if we are next to each other), standard for them to drink ... if this is an issue, then I need to re-type. Basically, it changes from "The NPCs ignore the whirlwind" to "The NPCs make the DC16 saves, similarly to how the PC does"
What is the issue with the first encounter?
Read the elemental whirlwind description, its 2 saves per round. One for damage, one for lift. You fail the lift save on round one and then the elemental double moves 200' up and lets you go. You fall for more than enough to kill you, as do both NPCs.
Just for kicks the elementals can toss your corpses up in the air for another 40d6 damage incase you aren't quite dead on the first impact.
--S
Edit: I've included the link from the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm
In situation 3 they're only unfriendly but a good story will calm them down.
Bluff is risky, as both have good sense motive checks, but diplomacy
DC is only 15 and it doesn't have to be rushed.
Char 6
You have a -2 penalty to make DC 15, and you assume you make it?
You should probably add the line "I fall for 20d6 damage and explode into chunks" somewhere too.
Read the elemental whirlwind description, its 2 saves per round. One for damage, one for lift. You fail the lift save on round one and then the elemental double moves 200' up and lets you go. You fall for more than enough to kill you, as do both NPCs.
Just for kicks the elementals can toss your corpses up in the air for another 40d6 damage incase you aren't quite dead on the first impact.
Hah, that would be a good line to add. Looks like I misread the way the whirlwind worked ... I thought it was that if you failed the first, you needed to make the second save ... ah well, looks like I need to just whip out my potion of flight while I am being flown up into the sky ... this lets me live ... but this is yet another thing I probably need to change for this encounter.
If I were to fail the lift save (as it looks like I do), then the medium encumbered elemental would double move less than 200 ft, meaning it takes two rounds of movement to get me to the dropping point, so I have lots of time to retrieve and drink my potion of flight.
However, the NPCs (if they drink the potions of enlarge person) are safe, as they are too big to be picked up ...
You have a -2 penalty to make DC 15, and you assume you make it?
Correct ... I completely and utterly assume that I make it.
See ;) the secret of my success ... is that there is no bluffing needed. I tell the complete and utter truth ... and when they sense motive me ... and SEE that I am telling the truth ... the encounter pans out the way I showed it working.
Now, if I was telling a false hood ... then I would need to roll.
For instance:
Merchant: That will be 35 gold pieces
Me: Here (hands 35 gold pieces).
There is no bluff check needed, however,
Merchant: That will be 35 gold pieces
Me: Here is 30 Eberron gold pieces, note the rarity/size/shape. This is easily worth more than 35 gold ...
But ... telling the truth to fellow adventurers (supposedly we had adventured before) should not require a bluff check ...
However ... if I fail my bluff check ... then they see right through me ... which is actually the same thing as a bluff success in this case.
SENSE MOTIVE (WIS)
Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.
This would be almost a case of surrendering/submitting to them ...
Correct ... I completely and utterly assume that I make it.
See ;) the secret of my success ... is that there is no bluffing needed. I tell the complete and utter truth ... and when they sense motive me ... and SEE that I am telling the truth ... the encounter pans out the way I showed it working.
Now, if I was telling a false hood ... then I would need to roll.
For instance:
Merchant: That will be 35 gold pieces
Me: Here (hands 35 gold pieces).
There is no bluff check needed, however,
Merchant: That will be 35 gold pieces
Me: Here is 30 Eberron gold pieces, note the rarity/size/shape. This is easily worth more than 35 gold ...
But ... telling the truth to fellow adventurers (supposedly we had adventured before) should not require a bluff check ...
However ... if I fail my bluff check ... then they see right through me ... which is actually the same thing as a bluff success in this case.
This would be almost a case of surrendering/submitting to them ...
You see, the problem is you said you'd make a Diplomacy check, DC 15.
You see, the problem is you said you'd make a Diplomacy check, DC 15.
Where did I say that?
Posted Encounter:
In situation 3 they're only unfriendly but a good story will calm them down.
Bluff is risky, as both have good sense motive checks, but diplomacy
DC is only 15 and it doesn't have to be rushed.
If Antonius is defeated, Julius will spam charm persons (+4 to save in combat) hoping to get lucky.
They're pretty afraid of the PC though
What I said:
Per encounter, I can attempt to talk them out of it. I know that they can cast charm person, and can voluntarily fail my saving throw. Since all it does is make me treat them as my friends (which they are (adventuring buddies)) there is no downfall to this tactic.
Where do you see either the word "bluff" or "diplomacy"?
Alternately, if this requires a social check, then an intimidate check (can be used in place of diplomacy) -- since they know that I can beat them up, and their goal (per encounter) is to get information out of me ... a circumstance bonus of even +1 is enough for me to reach a 50% chance ... which is success and not unreasonable as they are "pretty afraid of the PC"
And ... my goal is NOT to tell them that I had nothing to do with the turning of Elmo, but that I would voluntarily let them charm me ... once that is done, then they get all their information out of me.
Additionally, their attitude is unfriendly, not hostile.
Attitude Means Possible Actions
Hostile Will take risks to hurt you Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly Wishes you ill Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult
However, I will post a "I smack my friends around for no good reason" since thats what people would like to see. There -- I updated the post to include both situations.
Hah, that would be a good line to add. Looks like I misread the way the whirlwind worked ... I thought it was that if you failed the first, you needed to make the second save ... ah well, looks like I need to just whip out my potion of flight while I am being flown up into the sky ... this lets me live ... but this is yet another thing I probably need to change for this encounter.
If I were to fail the lift save (as it looks like I do), then the medium encumbered elemental would double move less than 200 ft, meaning it takes two rounds of movement to get me to the dropping point, so I have lots of time to retrieve and drink my potion of flight.
However, the NPCs (if they drink the potions of enlarge person) are safe, as they are too big to be picked up ...
Well assuming they are constrained by their normal strength you might be safe. They can lift 175lbs as a heavy load. If you weigh less than that you're screwed though.
With a heavy load (you) they can still move 70ft a round, thats 140 feet up and a fall for 14d6. Still enough to put you under -10. It doesn't even have to be that high I don't think. Even if they only managed to badly hurt you they can do the same damn thing next round, or if you spend your round drinking your potion they full attack and end you.
Just eyeballing it I think if they move 70ft onto you, pick you up, lift and drop. Then you will be pretty badly hurt, then they can either move in for a full attack or do fly bys. Your single hits are better than theirs, but not if you start the fight with 10hp or less.
but diplomacy
DC is only 15 and it doesn't have to be rushed.
Right there?
Even if you let them charm you, you still have to attempt a diplomacy check DC 15 to talk them out of beating you up. Much less joining you and helping you out.
Right there?
Even if you let them charm you, you still have to attempt a diplomacy check DC 15 to talk them out of beating you up. Much less joining you and helping you out.
In situation 3 they're only unfriendly but a good story will calm them down. Bluff is risky, as both have good sense motive checks
This is the part of the quote right before the diplomacy check part you mentioned. It mentions a "good story" ... but ... this is neither here nor there, as I posted a "I beat up my friends, who are only unfriendly, not hostile" scenario.
Per the SRD about Unfriendly and Hostile, why again are they wanting to beat me up?
Well assuming they are constrained by their normal strength you might be safe. They can lift 175lbs as a heavy load. If you weigh less than that you're screwed though.
With a heavy load (you) they can still move 70ft a round, thats 140 feet up and a fall for 14d6. Still enough to put you under -10. It doesn't even have to be that high I don't think. Even if they only managed to badly hurt you they can do the same damn thing next round, or if you spend your round drinking your potion they full attack and end you.
Just eyeballing it I think if they move 70ft onto you, pick you up, lift and drop. Then you will be pretty badly hurt, then they can either move in for a full attack or do fly bys. Your single hits are better than theirs, but not if you start the fight with 10hp or less.
7d6 is probably going to be reduced to 5d6 (jump/tumble) ... which averages about 18 damage -- ouch.
This is the part of the quote right before the diplomacy check part you mentioned. It mentions a "good story" ... but ... this is neither here nor there, as I posted a "I beat up my friends, who are only unfriendly, not hostile" scenario.
Per the SRD about Unfriendly and Hostile, why again are they wanting to beat me up?
Why is a lawful good werebear running amok.
Why is there an evil dryad attacking people.
Why is a woodsman druid type drinking in a bar with a fighter. (Insert horrid necromancer type, 12' tall dwarf etc in place of druid)
Because thats the way the encounter was posted more or less.
Why is a lawful good werebear running amok.
Why is there an evil dryad attacking people.
Why is a woodsman druid type drinking in a bar with a fighter. (Insert horrid necromancer type, 12' tall dwarf etc in place of druid)
Because thats the way the encounter was posted more or less.
Gotcha ... suspension of disbelief ... anyway, do you see any issues with how I beat up my friends?
Also, the air elemental is large, so it can carry double the 175 lb max ...
7d6 is probably going to be reduced to 5d6 (jump/tumble) ... which averages about 18 damage -- ouch.
Ok, round 2, same deal, round 3 same deal. Ouch indeed.
And that would be a bear minimum if they have to stop in your square. As it happens, they don't. They can simply move through your square. I don't remember the exact starting ranges to say exactly how much you would take, but certainly at least a 70ft fall.
So they move into your square, then up, and drop. You take the damage and then like I said, if you drink your potion they fight, if you don't drink your potion they drop you again.
Ok, round 2, same deal, round 3 same deal. Ouch indeed.
And that would be a bear minimum if they have to stop in your square. As it happens, they don't. They can simply move through your square. I don't remember the exact starting ranges to say exactly how much you would take, but certainly at least a 70ft fall.
So they move into your square, then up, and drop. You take the damage and then like I said, if you drink your potion they fight, if you don't drink your potion they drop you again.
Sounds like it would be a problem, and I appreciate you pointing this out ... it looks like just one more thing I need to take into account when I redo the third encounter -- as it has several other issues (like the fact that the bard doesn't have cure light wounds).
So ... my question from before, you mentioned issues with the first encounter -- can you point those out to me?
Also, do you see any issues with how I am beating up my friends?
Sounds like it would be a problem, and I appreciate you pointing this out ... it looks like just one more thing I need to take into account when I redo the third encounter -- as it has several other issues (like the fact that the bard doesn't have cure light wounds).
So ... my question from before, you mentioned issues with the first encounter -- can you point those out to me?
Also, do you see any issues with how I am beating up my friends?
Just offhand I think its a little odd that your friends that are waiting to mug you spend time unpeacebonding their weapons. If I were going to confront someone and expecting trouble I would ready my weapon beforehand. I don't remember if he mentioned anything in the setup about if they do/don't have to spend time readying weapons.
Just offhand I think its a little odd that your friends that are waiting to mug you spend time unpeacebonding their weapons. If I were going to confront someone and expecting trouble I would ready my weapon beforehand. I don't remember if he mentioned anything in the setup about if they do/don't have to spend time readying weapons.
I don't remember him posting anything either way -- which is why it was listed as occurring pre-initiative as he mentions them having them during the fight ... notice, it does not affect the fight at all whether they do it in the "box text" section of the fight or off-camera ...
I just mentioned it as I didn't want to have them spend time during the fight, and if they wandered around the town with un-peace-bounded weapons, they would get talked to by the guard (all off-camera)
I toss them each my remaining two potions of enlarge person, which they proceed to drink.
Nope. too many actions in the surprise round. You get one standard or move action. That is drawing a single potion of enlarge person. There isn't time for any of you to drink it, much less for you to draw and toss two extras to your buddies.
The elemental whirlwind sucking in medium sized critters doesn't encumber the elementals either. It can suck you in without treating you as burden. They have fly 100' perfect. The elemental has a number of restrictions on whirlwind, not the least being that they can't attack any other way. They're not in the usual "I have X strength and am grappling you" mode.
Potions have concentration checks same as spells (a little known rule, but it's in there, DMG I think). You need dc15+spell level to drink the potion if you get sucked into the whirlwind. Your plan to enlarge is a good one, but you need to either win initiative or make the reflex save to not be sucked up into the whirlwind.
The adventure also assumes your companions fail their initial reflex saves (this is after all a pretence of a normal adventure to explain why you are solo). They get sucked up, they get splatted.
I'd assumed actually that you didn't know Elmo was a werebear but I think your interpretation was better, so people don't have to worry about metagaming the silver. I believe since you were willing to be charmed that would bypass encounter #2, although the way it would have gone is you would have been tasha'd, the ranger would have beat you up for a mix of subdual and lethal and then they would have woken you up once their blood had cooled.
Losing encounter 2 is an option. It just isn't one that all adventurers would be willing to do.
Neither Julius nor Alexandra has any peacebonded weapons. One fights only with spells, the other fights with throwing weapons and quarterstaff, both of which are legal. Also to attack the bard you have to go through the ranger and the dog, there isn't a charge lane to the spellcaster unless you're using a weird ability I don't know about to get to the bard. The dog, being domesticated, doesn't have a muzzle. It's possible the ranger owns other weapons (bow for sure, maybe reach weapon) but in this encounter he uses only stuff that is legal and doesn't require peacebond.
You can try intimidate them to back down, it is an opposed check for both of them. (resist intimidate check is +6 and +7 - level+wis mod+2 for inspire courage, it's an opposed check like a grapple or initiative) per the PHB rules. You have to win against both of them to end the encounter, and they won't help you later on if you do it that way.
I think that's all. I'm glad you're playing with the adventure. The elemental encounter is just lethal though, especially at CR7. At CR5 it's easier to turn it into a slugfest.
They start 100' away. They move up to the party, each trying to pick up a party member (assume the first two start with the NPC's which means even if they make one save, another likely gets them). As noted, they do this by moving through your square (which does not provoke per whirlwind description). They kick up enough dust when at ground level that movement AOO's are unlikely too barring blindsight.
Once they have rolled over you, they have 100' movement left. They scatter in 3 directions so PC's can't support each other, but are still at ground level.
Round 2, they fly 200' up and drop their victims.
That's their plan. Making the save, being size large, being able to fly or feather fall etc can force one of the elementals to change the plan.
They're only bound to serve until they kill one person, so with the NPC's once they drop them, the killer elemental vanishes.
It doesn't seem to say that they are not limited by what they are carrying that I can see. Do you have a source for that or is it just the way you are reading the ability?
It doesn't let them ignore damage, ie. they don't become incorporeal that I can see. Which leads to another point. Silly as it seems there doesn't seem to be anything to prevent you from simply grappling the elementals into submission.
The elemental tactics are very specific....
They start 100' away. They move up to the party, each trying to pick up a party member (assume the first two start with the NPC's which means even if they make one save, another likely gets them). As noted, they do this by moving through your square (which does not provoke per whirlwind description). They kick up enough dust when at ground level that movement AOO's are unlikely too barring blindsight.
Once they have rolled over you, they have 100' movement left. They scatter in 3 directions so PC's can't support each other, but are still at ground level.
Round 2, they fly 200' up and drop their victims.
That's their plan. Making the save, being size large, being able to fly or feather fall etc can force one of the elementals to change the plan.
They're only bound to serve until they kill one person, so with the NPC's once they drop them, the killer elemental vanishes.
They don't proke AoO's while in whirlwind form.
Also there seems to be little reason to delay their tactics like that, they are almost always better served by a 100ft move to engulf, then a 100ft up and drop. Some people will survive, some will not. Those that do will get dropped a second time, or a third.
If they wait until the second round to do anything it gives more time to do things in response to them, and some/most builds submitted in the challenge have something that can negate the elemental with an extra action (If they know to take it I guess). Potion of enlarge person, potion of flight, hide in smoke, grapple and pwn the elemental etc.
Nope. too many actions in the surprise round. You get one standard or move action. That is drawing a single potion of enlarge person. There isn't time for any of you to drink it, much less for you to draw and toss two extras to your buddies.
Ok ... thats ok ... I need to make tons of changes anyway. But ... can I grab multiple potions at once, or is it one item per move (if so, how long does it take to hand a merchant 50 gold pieces). If I can grab multiple items in one move, then the companions can grab their potion on their turn (delay until after me) and then, after being picked up by the elemental, can drink the potion (conc check). Since this is a pretty large question, I will wait to report until after it is answered.
The adventure also assumes your companions fail their initial reflex saves (this is after all a pretence of a normal adventure to explain why you are solo). They get sucked up, they get splatted.
If I can figure out a way to get the potions to them, then they don't get splattered ...
I'd assumed actually that you didn't know Elmo was a werebear but I think your interpretation was better, so people don't have to worry about metagaming the silver. I believe since you were willing to be charmed that would bypass encounter #2, although the way it would have gone is you would have been tasha'd, the ranger would have beat you up for a mix of subdual and lethal and then they would have woken you up once their blood had cooled.
That is the definition of hostile, not unfriendly.
Losing encounter 2 is an option. It just isn't one that all adventurers would be willing to do.
Neither Julius nor Alexandra has any peacebonded weapons. One fights only with spells, the other fights with throwing weapons and quarterstaff, both of which are legal. Also to attack the bard you have to go through the ranger and the dog, there isn't a charge lane to the spellcaster unless you're using a weird ability I don't know about to get to the bard. The dog, being domesticated, doesn't have a muzzle. It's possible the ranger owns other weapons (bow for sure, maybe reach weapon) but in this encounter he uses only stuff that is legal and doesn't require peacebond.
Ok, like I said, the peace bonding this doesn't affect any part of the fight ... I only mentioned it in case it was needed.
You hadn't mentioned the order of the bard/ranger/dog -- or where they were when the encounter starts ... so it was not apparent that the bard is behind the other two.
Please keep updating the original encounters as we find out more stuff ... I do not mind being a guinea pig for this sort of thing.
Also, how tall is the ranger? And where are starting positions of the NPCs relative to the PC.
They don't proke AoO's while in whirlwind form.
Also there seems to be little reason to delay their tactics like that, they are almost always better served by a 100ft move to engulf, then a 100ft up and drop. Some people will survive, some will not. Those that do will get dropped a second time, or a third.
If they wait until the second round to do anything it gives more time to do things in response to them, and some/most builds submitted in the challenge have something that can negate the elemental with an extra action (If they know to take it I guess). Potion of enlarge person, potion of flight, hide in smoke, grapple and pwn the elemental etc.
As noted, potions don't work well if you are captured in the whirlwind and don't have concentrate skill. Enlarge is only helpful at CR5, flight is good but you may have to ready to drink for when you are dropped.
Smoke is useless because the whirlwind disperses it.
The reason for the separation tactics is based on running a similar encounter at APL6 and APL8 for 5-6 person parties. Basically if the elementals clump together and all rise in the same place, party members can support each other. They can cast things like calm emotions, hosing all 3 whirlwinds, or feather fall on the drop or heal each other or buff each other. If you scatter them, some of them are going to die and it is much harder to take out all 3 elementals. Having playtested it both ways against more capable parties than this one (two level 4s and a level 5 or 7), the scatter first tactic is usually better.
While in this party, only the PC can really do much to an elemental, they don't know that. They're using tactics designed to get as many kills as possible, even if some individuals in the party have countermeasures, all of them probably won't.
I've also noticed that a lot of people survive 100' drops but few survive 200' drops, at least not at level 5-7. If they get out at zero feet but the elemental scoops them up again on round 2, it's almost as good as them not escaping. If you drop them at 100', the elemental has to fly down to 100', lift and drop them again.
Anyway...those elemental tactics were the ones instructed to them by their summoners. Most of the time it will kill 2 of the 3 enemies and sometimes it will get all 3. I can live with that
Grapple will stop the elemental from moving. It won't get you out of the whirlwind or stop the damage every round, but it is useful if you can pull it off. My own grappling monk tied down one elemental for most of the fight in the encounter this one was based on with that approach, although he did end the combat 100' in the air after the frustrated elemental's wirlwind ran out and it started grappling to move and managed to stick one. The party defeated the other two and came to the rescue. (no, the GM didn't use as good tactics as whirlwind+scatter when I played it. I was meaner to those I ran the adventure for)
I have a couple of questions about their ability.
It doesn't seem to say that they are not limited by what they are carrying that I can see. Do you have a source for that or is it just the way you are reading the ability?
It's the way I read it, although other interpretations are possible. In my experience, weight doesn't slow whirlwinds (or whirlpools for water elementals) and there is some rules support, it isn't entirely silent.
Mainly, the basis is the whirlwinds seem to be limited by volume, not by weight:
"The elemental can have only as many creatures trapped inside the whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume."
Size large in whirlwind form is 40' high when unconstrained, with a top diameter of 20'. You can pack a LOT of size medium creatures in there, but only a couple would cause it to violate weight limits as air elementals aren't very strong for their size. Even a single horse would likely overburden the huge elemental.
Ok ... thats ok ... I need to make tons of changes anyway. But ... can I grab multiple potions at once, or is it one item per move (if so, how long does it take to hand a merchant 50 gold pieces). If I can grab multiple items in one move, then the companions can grab their potion on their turn (delay until after me) and then, after being picked up by the elemental, can drink the potion (conc check). Since this is a pretty large question, I will wait to report until after it is answered.
Well, it would take me a lot longer than three seconds to get 50 separate coins out of my wallet ;) In terms of game mechanics, it's either a "retrieve a stored item" action or "draw a weapon" depending on whether potions are weaponlike, both of which are explicitly a move action (PHB p.141 - the latter can be combined with a regular move). If you have TWF you can draw two weapons as a move action (or combined with a move), which might apply here if potions are weaponlike, but otherwise it takes two move actions. If your PC has Quickdraw and potions are treated as weaponlike, then that should also work.
Incidentally, if I understood the second encounter correctly, the reason they're planning to jump you is that what they've deduced (from garbled witness reports) is that you somehow triggered Elmo's transformation and then beat the living daylights out of him. They know you didn't kill him, and you ARE a party member, so they're not planning to kill you... but unless you can give them a good explanation pretty quickly (i.e. at least a DC 15 Diplomacy check), they're going to return the beating on Elmo's behalf. I might be misunderstanding this, but that's how I read it.
You can "win" the second encounter by just letting them beat you up and cool off if you didn't kill Elmo, but it doesn't highlight a build very well
. If that is what your character would do that's ok though. There is a small amount of roleplay on this thread.Move action to pull a potion out (which will provoke usually, although I don't tend to fuss if a few of your potions are weaponlike. Bela's always provoke).
Dropping a potion means it is on the ground. That is a move action to pick it up for your allies. Sticking it in their hand requires a move action from you.
Basically nobody gets a potion from a 3rd party without two actions....one for the 3rd party to draw it, and one either from 3rd party or self to pick it up or hand it off.
The rules don't really support pulling multiple items out in one move action, barring items in a container (pulling a sack of stuff out lets you manipulate multiple items but using them also requires pulling them out of the sack) or from feats (TWF and quickdraw help if the items are weaponlike).
Show
Elmo at some point in your travels told you silver can hurt him but not much else does.
Intimidate is opposed vs +6 (bard) and +7 (ranger) and you have to beat both
to "win". At EL7, DC is +8 and +9 because you are outnumbered four to one.
DC's are from PHB rules, with circumstance bonus at EL7.
Bards are 10' behind ranger(s). Dog is next to or in front of ranger, default command "defend ranger".
There should not be a way to melee the bard without getting past dog and/or ranger. If in stables ranger+dog are 15' from you in 10' wide corridor, if at inn, dog is 10' from you in 5' wide corridor.
If in alleyway, it is 5' wide but dog is 25' away at start.
Please review MM rules on whirlwind. At ground level they kick up dust preventing movement AOO's. They don't provoke entering your square and you must make separate reflex saves for damage and
being sucked in. My interpretation of the volume limits on whirlwind is that weight does not encumber
if you are carried off via whirlwind (as opposed to grapple or similar). Grapple will prevent the whirlwind
from moving but not the damage each round or allow you to escape (you need flight+reflex save). Large elementals can only lift medium creatures, Huge can only lift large. If mounted you can choose to use ride check instead of reflex save if the mount is not pulled in. If mount is pulled in and you apass the reflex save this is a DC15 ride check to land on feet
The two NPC's are assumed to fail a "suck into whirlwind" save on round 1, as the first two elementals
run them over. Ranger saves vs E1 but bard gets sucked into E1. Ranger fails save vs E2. E3 is for
PC, and if PC passes the save, it will end its turn next to PC (you can full attack, but you are blind from the dust. Its intention is to test your reflex save round 2 and still lift you 195' in the air to drop)
Elmo at some point in your travels told you silver can hurt him but not much else does.
Intimidate is opposed vs +6 (bard) and +7 (ranger) and you have to beat both
to "win". At EL7, DC is +8 and +9 because you are outnumbered four to one.
DC's are from PHB rules, with circumstance bonus at EL7.
Bards are 10' behind ranger(s). Dog is next to or in front of ranger, default command "defend ranger".
There should not be a way to melee the bard without getting past dog and/or ranger. If in stables ranger+dog are 15' from you in 10' wide corridor, if at inn, dog is 10' from you in 5' wide corridor.
If in alleyway, it is 5' wide but dog is 25' away at start.
Please review MM rules on whirlwind. At ground level they kick up dust preventing movement AOO's. They don't provoke entering your square and you must make separate reflex saves for damage and
being sucked in. My interpretation of the volume limits on whirlwind is that weight does not encumber
if you are carried off via whirlwind (as opposed to grapple or similar). Grapple will prevent the whirlwind
from moving but not the damage each round or allow you to escape (you need flight+reflex save). Large elementals can only lift medium creatures, Huge can only lift large. If mounted you can choose to use ride check instead of reflex save if the mount is not pulled in. If mount is pulled in and you apass the reflex save this is a DC15 ride check to land on feet
The two NPC's are assumed to fail a "suck into whirlwind" save on round 1, as the first two elementals
run them over. Ranger saves vs E1 but bard gets sucked into E1. Ranger fails save vs E2. E3 is for
PC, and if PC passes the save, it will end its turn next to PC (you can full attack, but you are blind from the dust. Its intention is to test your reflex save round 2 and still lift you 195' in the air to drop)
Well assuming they are constrained by their normal strength you might be safe. They can lift 175lbs as a heavy load. If you weigh less than that you're screwed though.
no...whirlwind has a size limit, not a weight limit. You can only suck creatures into the whirlwind if they are a size category smaller than the elemental.
So a large elemental can never suck a size large creature into the whirlwind, although they can inflict the damage (and enlarge person drops your reflex save because dex drops).
no...whirlwind has a size limit, not a weight limit. You can only suck creatures into the whirlwind if they are a size category smaller than the elemental.
So a large elemental can never suck a size large creature into the whirlwind, although they can inflict the damage (and enlarge person drops your reflex save because dex drops).
I would still like to see some sort of support for the theory that elementals automagically can carry foo weight while in whirlwind form.
I see that it says you can engulf things based on size etc, but as a counter to your point that multiple medium being would likely encumber a large elemental I will offer you this example. A large air elemental engulfs 30 medium air elementals. They weight a total of something like what 120lbs if I remember correctly?
Yes, that means a large air elemental cannot carry off say a warhorse, or a human on the heavy side (or even average carrying a lot of gear).
I don't especially care which way it ends up, but I don't see any support RAW for a whirlwind picking up say a medium sized adamantite statue.
Smoke is useless because the whirlwind disperses it.
The reason for the separation tactics is based on running a similar encounter at APL6 and APL8 for 5-6 person parties. Basically if the elementals clump together and all rise in the same place, party members can support each other. They can cast things like calm emotions, hosing all 3 whirlwinds, or feather fall on the drop or heal each other or buff each other. If you scatter them, some of them are going to die and it is much harder to take out all 3 elementals. Having playtested it both ways against more capable parties than this one (two level 4s and a level 5 or 7), the scatter first tactic is usually better.
While in this party, only the PC can really do much to an elemental, they don't know that. They're using tactics designed to get as many kills as possible, even if some individuals in the party have countermeasures, all of them probably won't.
I've also noticed that a lot of people survive 100' drops but few survive 200' drops, at least not at level 5-7. If they get out at zero feet but the elemental scoops them up again on round 2, it's almost as good as them not escaping. If you drop them at 100', the elemental has to fly down to 100', lift and drop them again.
Anyway...those elemental tactics were the ones instructed to them by their summoners. Most of the time it will kill 2 of the 3 enemies and sometimes it will get all 3. I can live with that
Grapple will stop the elemental from moving. It won't get you out of the whirlwind or stop the damage every round, but it is useful if you can pull it off. My own grappling monk tied down one elemental for most of the fight in the encounter this one was based on with that approach, although he did end the combat 100' in the air after the frustrated elemental's wirlwind ran out and it started grappling to move and managed to stick one. The party defeated the other two and came to the rescue. (no, the GM didn't use as good tactics as whirlwind+scatter when I played it. I was meaner to those I ran the adventure for)
Smoke works just fine.
Even if you assume a whirlwind form air elemental counts as a strong wind for dispersal purposes it takes a round to disperse (I don't think it should, a whirlwind will make the smoke swirl a little but it won't push it out of the area). In which time a smoking bottle will have put out a new 50' spread of smoke. All a strong wind does in that case is limit the spread of smoke to 50' rather than 100'.
As far as the grapple goes, I'm talking about grappling BEFORE it can engulf you. It would then have to win a grapple check to move onto you and then move. Until it did you would be immune to the damage from being inside it. Silly, maybe, but wrestling a whirlwind is out there to begin with.
Size large creatures, just wandering through the animal list, range from 400lb-600lb (ape/lion) to 1800lb- 2400lb (brown bear/bison)
A typical adventurer is about 200lb including equipment. He's 1600lb enlarged. Some are a lot more. Even the skinny female medium sized adventurer is going to be 125lb or so with gear, 1000lb enlarged.
A huge air elemental is only strength 18.
That is a 400lb limit at light load, 1200 at heavy load. Heavy load drops its dex mod to AC to 1, medium to 3 so it's AC drops by 5 if it picks up anything heavier than a starving ape, by 8 with most large creatures it can lift at all and if it tries to pick up a horse, bear or enlarged adventurer, it fails outright. Forget about pulling two into the air, and assume that it drops from AC 21 to 12 when pulling stuff in the whirlwind.
This doesn't to me fit how the ability is described. It can maybe pull one appropriate sized creature in, if it is on the low end of the size scale, often not even one never two. It doesn't pass my sense of "that's stupid".
The ability says nothing about weight but talks about size categories and total volume. Air elementals are supposed to be less vulnerable when they and enemies are in the air, and this makes them more vulnerable. So I come down on the rule that makes the whirlwind fit the cinematic vision of the monster, makes them actually dangerous in their element and makes the ability work normally on most creatures without having to micromanage where they fall in a size category weight range.
So you know. I'll play a challenge you write by your interpretations of anything grey. In this challenge the defense against the whirlwind is size, reflex saves, free-movement type effects, flight etc. But not weight.
Smoke works just fine.
Even if you assume a whirlwind form air elemental counts as a strong wind for dispersal purposes it takes a round to disperse (I don't think it should, a whirlwind will make the smoke swirl a little but it won't push it out of the area). In which time a smoking bottle will have put out a new 50' spread of smoke. All a strong wind does in that case is limit the spread of smoke to 50' rather than 100'.
As far as the grapple goes, I'm talking about grappling BEFORE it can engulf you. It would then have to win a grapple check to move onto you and then move. Until it did you would be immune to the damage from being inside it. Silly, maybe, but wrestling a whirlwind is out there to begin with.
Smoke doesn't affect it at all. It only has to move through your square. It doesn't matter if it is dispersed or not, it only has to know roughly where you are. Heck the elementals have enough movement to systematically move through every square in most smoke clouds if it comes to that.
With the bottle of smoke, they can see where the center is and head for it. Putting up a 50' smokescreen in the surprise round won't keep you from being sucked in unless you beat them in initiative and move (and abandon the bottle because the spread from where you moved to will give away your new location). Even then, they have awfully good odds of finding you just with a grid search. This is especially true if your NPC allies are with you so there are 3 elementals to do the grid.
One interesting thing about air elementals in whirlwind mode is they kick up dust but can see where they're going because not all of the whirlwind is in dust, just the part near the ground. Unless your smoke is 40' high you won't slow them down at all, beyond maybe making them run the funnel over more squares (10' path for size large, 15 for huge).
Grappling doesn't let you hold something off in a different square. If you succeed, you move into its square. You'll be grappling blind since you can't see it due to the dust it kicks up, so you'll miss half the time. If you do succeed you're sharing space with a whirlwinding elemental. You're subject to the buffeting damage, although if you never got sucked in (or are too big to be sucked in) you would get the reflex save to avoid damage each round. It is only automatic if you are sucked in.
Smoke doesn't affect it at all. It only has to move through your square. It doesn't matter if it is dispersed or not, it only has to know roughly where you are. Heck the elementals have enough movement to systematically move through every square in most smoke clouds if it comes to that.
They could not even come close to moving through every square. A 50' spread is 100 feet across, that means they can move from one side to the other in a single action, that is not even approaching 100% coverage.
With the bottle of smoke, they can see where the center is and head for it. Putting up a 50' smokescreen in the surprise round won't keep you from being sucked in unless you beat them in initiative and move (and abandon the bottle because the spread from where you moved to will give away your new location). Even then, they have awfully good odds of finding you just with a grid search. This is especially true if your NPC allies are with you so there are 3 elementals to do the grid.
I don't believe that the fog cloud is constrained in a 50' circle around the bottle. That just doesn't make sense. It spreads from there but someone moving with a bottle should leave a trail of smoke, not have a moving globe of smoke that automagically disappears the moment it gets out of range. Note in the items description it says once the bottle is sealed the smoke dissipates normally. That suggests to me that smoke outside the spread would also hang around until it dissipated as normal.
One interesting thing about air elementals in whirlwind mode is they kick up dust but can see where they're going because not all of the whirlwind is in dust, just the part near the ground. Unless your smoke is 40' high you won't slow them down at all, beyond maybe making them run the funnel over more squares (10' path for size large, 15 for huge).
I would assume a 50' SPREAD means upwards as well. If we were talking physics instead of DnD it would go up far further than that. Even DnD might use a 50' column for something like that.
Additional point. Its not relevant how high the elemental is because unless the person is over the cloud the elemental still can't see it.
Grappling doesn't let you hold something off in a different square. If you succeed, you move into its square. You'll be grappling blind since you can't see it due to the dust it kicks up, so you'll miss half the time. If you do succeed you're sharing space with a whirlwinding elemental. You're subject to the buffeting damage, although if you never got sucked in (or are too big to be sucked in) you would get the reflex save to avoid damage each round. It is only automatic if you are sucked in.
Sorry, its not possible to "miss" a grapple vs someone you are already grappling. Touch is a perfectly valid targeting sense.
Keep in mind that at least in the druids case there would be no attacking with a natural weapon in the grapple, he would simply pin the creature and then each round he maintains the pin deal automatic claw and rake damage. There is no roll to hit, no nothing. There is no way for that to miss.
It uses a Psychic Warrior level for the sole purpose of getting Psicrystal Affinity.
EDIT: Rats. I just learned that Penetrating Strike requires flanking. Without Sneak Attack against undead and constructs, Stealthy Assassin will run out of crossbow bolts unless he sneaks through the entire dungeon and declares victory. If I want him to actually kill stuff, I need some other source of extra damage, probably in the form of the Psionic Shot feat. Does that count as psionics?
Stealthy Assassin v1.11
Stealthy Assassin v1.11
Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Spellthief 1/Rogue +2
Ability Scores
Str: 6 [8 base -2 race] (0 points)
Dex: 20 [17 base +2 race +1 lvl] (13 points)
Con: 10 [8 base +2 race] (0 points)
Int: 10 [10 base] (2 points)
Wis: 14 [14 base] (6 points)
Cha: 10 [12 base -2 race] (4 points)
HP: 20 [6 + 4.5 + 3.5*3]
AC: 16 [10 +1 size +5 dex -1 flaw]
Init: +5 [+5 dex]
BAB/Grapple: +2/+0 [+2 BAB -2 str]
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fort +3 [+3 base]
Dex +10 [+5 base +5 dex]
Will +3 [+1 base +2 wis]
Traits/Flaws: Illiterate (+1 Hide), Noncombatant, Vulnerable
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), Psicrystal Affinity (Coward)*, Stealthy
Class Abilities: Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding, Steal Spell (up to level 1), Evasion, Penetrating Strike (substitution for Trap Sense)
Important Racial Abilities: Silence 1/day (centered on self)
Skills:
Decipher Script +5 [5 ranks]
Disguise +4 [4 ranks]
Escape Artist +13 [8 ranks +5 dex]
Hide +35 [8 ranks +5 dex +4 size +4 race +1 trait +3 feat +2 feat +3 psicrystal +5 competence]
Listen +12 [6 ranks +2 wis +2 race +2 psicrystal]
Move Silently +27 [8 ranks +5 dex +4 race +3 feat +2 feat +5 competence]
Spellcraft +5 [5 ranks] +2 to identify scrolls
Spot +14 [8 ranks +2 wis +2 race +2 psicrystal]
Use Magic Device +8 [8 ranks] +4 with scrolls
Literacy: 2 Psychic Warrior skill points
Attacks:
MW Darkwood Light Crossbow:
Attack: +9 [+2 BAB +5 dex +1 size +1 enhance] Damage: 1d6 +3d6 Sneak Attack
Greataxe:
Attack: -1 [+2 BAB -1 str +1 size -2 flaw] Damage: 1d10-2 (24 damage on CDG)
Items:
Darkwood Light Crossbow [355 gp] 1 lbs
100 Crossbow Bolts [10 gp] 5 lbs
Greataxe [20 gp] 6 lbs
Boots of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Cloak of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Wand of Camouflage [750 gp]
Potion of Camouflage x8 [400 gp]
Wand of Magic Weapon [750 gp]
Scroll of Deeper Darkness x2 [750 gp]
Scroll of Forestfold x2 [750 gp]
Wooden Holy Symbol worn around neck [1 gp]
Remaining Gold: 314 gp
Total Weight: 14 pounds (15 pounds for no encumbrance)
Changelog:
Version 1.1:
- Replace +1 crossbow with MW crossbow.
- Replace Scrolls of Camouflage with Wand of Camouflage.
- Added Wand of Magic Weapon.
Version 1.11:
- Buy 8xScrolls Potions of Camouflage
Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Spellthief 1/Rogue +2
Ability Scores
Str: 6 [8 base -2 race] (0 points)
Dex: 20 [17 base +2 race +1 lvl] (13 points)
Con: 10 [8 base +2 race] (0 points)
Int: 10 [10 base] (2 points)
Wis: 14 [14 base] (6 points)
Cha: 10 [12 base -2 race] (4 points)
HP: 20 [6 + 4.5 + 3.5*3]
AC: 16 [10 +1 size +5 dex -1 flaw]
Init: +5 [+5 dex]
BAB/Grapple: +2/+0 [+2 BAB -2 str]
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fort +3 [+3 base]
Dex +10 [+5 base +5 dex]
Will +3 [+1 base +2 wis]
Traits/Flaws: Illiterate (+1 Hide), Noncombatant, Vulnerable
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), Psicrystal Affinity (Coward)*, Stealthy
Class Abilities: Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding, Steal Spell (up to level 1), Evasion, Penetrating Strike (substitution for Trap Sense)
Important Racial Abilities: Silence 1/day (centered on self)
Skills:
Decipher Script +5 [5 ranks]
Disguise +4 [4 ranks]
Escape Artist +13 [8 ranks +5 dex]
Hide +35 [8 ranks +5 dex +4 size +4 race +1 trait +3 feat +2 feat +3 psicrystal +5 competence]
Listen +12 [6 ranks +2 wis +2 race +2 psicrystal]
Move Silently +27 [8 ranks +5 dex +4 race +3 feat +2 feat +5 competence]
Spellcraft +5 [5 ranks] +2 to identify scrolls
Spot +14 [8 ranks +2 wis +2 race +2 psicrystal]
Use Magic Device +8 [8 ranks] +4 with scrolls
Literacy: 2 Psychic Warrior skill points
Attacks:
MW Darkwood Light Crossbow:
Attack: +9 [+2 BAB +5 dex +1 size +1 enhance] Damage: 1d6 +3d6 Sneak Attack
Greataxe:
Attack: -1 [+2 BAB -1 str +1 size -2 flaw] Damage: 1d10-2 (24 damage on CDG)
Items:
Darkwood Light Crossbow [355 gp] 1 lbs
100 Crossbow Bolts [10 gp] 5 lbs
Greataxe [20 gp] 6 lbs
Boots of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Cloak of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Wand of Camouflage [750 gp]
Potion of Camouflage x8 [400 gp]
Wand of Magic Weapon [750 gp]
Scroll of Deeper Darkness x2 [750 gp]
Scroll of Forestfold x2 [750 gp]
Wooden Holy Symbol worn around neck [1 gp]
Remaining Gold: 314 gp
Total Weight: 14 pounds (15 pounds for no encumbrance)
Changelog:
Version 1.1:
- Replace +1 crossbow with MW crossbow.
- Replace Scrolls of Camouflage with Wand of Camouflage.
- Added Wand of Magic Weapon.
Version 1.11:
- Buy 8x
Well, when adjudicating rules that are fuzzy, I tend to apply the "that's stupid" test.
Size large creatures, just wandering through the animal list, range from 400lb-600lb (ape/lion) to 1800lb- 2400lb (brown bear/bison)
A typical adventurer is about 200lb including equipment. He's 1600lb enlarged. Some are a lot more. Even the skinny female medium sized adventurer is going to be 125lb or so with gear, 1000lb enlarged.
A huge air elemental is only strength 18.
That is a 400lb limit at light load, 1200 at heavy load. Heavy load drops its dex mod to AC to 1, medium to 3 so it's AC drops by 5 if it picks up anything heavier than a starving ape, by 8 with most large creatures it can lift at all and if it tries to pick up a horse, bear or enlarged adventurer, it fails outright. Forget about pulling two into the air, and assume that it drops from AC 21 to 12 when pulling stuff in the whirlwind.
This doesn't to me fit how the ability is described. It can maybe pull one appropriate sized creature in, if it is on the low end of the size scale, often not even one never two. It doesn't pass my sense of "that's stupid".
The ability says nothing about weight but talks about size categories and total volume. Air elementals are supposed to be less vulnerable when they and enemies are in the air, and this makes them more vulnerable. So I come down on the rule that makes the whirlwind fit the cinematic vision of the monster, makes them actually dangerous in their element and makes the ability work normally on most creatures without having to micromanage where they fall in a size category weight range.
So you know. I'll play a challenge you write by your interpretations of anything grey. In this challenge the defense against the whirlwind is size, reflex saves, free-movement type effects, flight etc. But not weight.
The ability doesn't mention weight, but it also doesn't mention that weight can be ignored. Stupid is a whirlwind that can pick up a medium sized adamantine statue but not a large air elemental.
Also your tactic runs into problems with weight even if it can lift them, because if I remember right there is a rule about flying with a heavy load too. Something along the lines of, you can't do it.
Under your interpretation then an air elemental outside is probably the deadliest CR5 encounter around. If it gets the jump on a full party of level 5 adventurers (which CharOp boards notwithstanding do not normally have the ability to either fly or survive a 100' fall) it could scoop them all up and dump them before the adventurers get an action. If it gets surprise it could easily start at 100' distance, move up, gather the party and dump them from some 180' up without any of them getting to act. That falls under thats stupid also.
I hate to do this (since I think casters are overpowered), but I'm going to have to throw another character in the non-caster side.
It uses a Psychic Warrior level for the sole purpose of getting Psicrystal Affinity.
Psychic Warrior is not allowed ... It think you can take "Wild Talent" to qualify to take "Psicrystal affinity". Also, I am of the opinion that Spellthief is a caster, as it can cast spells at first level (that it steals).
EDIT: Rats. I just learned that Penetrating Strike requires flanking. Without Sneak Attack against undead and constructs, Stealthy Assassin will run out of crossbow bolts unless he sneaks through the entire dungeon and declares victory. If I want him to actually kill stuff, I need some other source of extra damage, probably in the form of the Psionic Shot feat. Does that count as psionics?
You do not need to kill the undead/constructs, you can bypass them -- however, depending on how you do it -- it might or might not count.
Keep in mind that you do not know about the undead/construct before you enter the dungeon. And that to properly showcase this build, you should take it through multiple mini-adventures.
Thoughts:
- If I drop the Psychic Warrior level, this character would face a .0075 chance of failing a hide check while sniping versus an opponent with +12 Spot (could be relevant over many rounds of sniping). Of course, the trade-off would be getting more skill points (for Bluff or Tumble), another point of BAB, and uncanny dodge. EDIT: Or a Ranger level to automatically use the Wand of Camouflage. Thoughts?
Legal builds are better than illegal builds ... so swapping out psychic warrior is needed.
- Level 3 spell scrolls are so expensive
Sorry, dunno if you know why that rule is in effect, but it prevents a ton of cheese.
They could not even come close to moving through every square. A 50' spread is 100 feet across, that means they can move from one side to the other in a single action, that is not even approaching 100% coverage.
Three elementals, 10' wide each, and how far can you move in the fog? They only have to sweep the area around the center. They've really only got a 30' radius from the center to sweep if you move 30' per move action when not in smoke like a normal person. They pretty much just have to plow through to the center till one makes contact.
Seriously though...the people who summoned the elementals weren't imagining a bottle of smoke.
The height thing is valid. They'd be slowed enteringthe smoke.
I don't believe that the fog cloud is constrained in a 50' circle around the bottle.
I agree, it isn't, but if you move the old smoke remains and new smoke forms around your new center. They just have to aim for the center of the new smoke, assuming you won initiative, which is unlikely.
Additional point. Its not relevant how high the elemental is because unless the person is over the cloud the elemental still can't see it.
It is for how far they go in a move action. If any part is above the smoke they move full speed (smoke that isn't at head level does not slow you down in D&D. However I concede the point that 50' high is enough for large and huge elementals (huge get to 50'). Anything but a bottle of smoke doing a similar effect though is a 20' cylinder (or 10x10 cube for smokestick) and they easily see over that.
Sorry, its not possible to "miss" a grapple vs someone you are already grappling. Touch is a perfectly valid targeting sense.
We're not talking about already grappling. We're talking about the touch attack to initiate the grapple. You can't see the elemental when it is whirlwinding and kicking up dust until it is on top of you. 50% miss chance to try to touch it on the approach before it tries to suck you in.
Keep in mind that at least in the druids case there would be no attacking with a natural weapon in the grapple, he would simply pin the creature and then each round he maintains the pin deal automatic claw and rake damage. There is no roll to hit, no nothing. There is no way for that to miss.
Are fleshrakers like grey renders? That's the only example where you don't have to roll attack mods I know of. The more I hear about these monsters the stupider they sound. I knew about the pounce, the many attacks and the poison (there is a MM1 dinosaur with similar attributes, aside from poison) but I'm not entirely clear on their grapple/rake/rend mechanics. I've heard only garbled versions. I'd like to see the plain text on that ability if it falls under fair use enough to post.
The fleshrakers still need to #1 establish the grapple, #2 win a grapple check to establish the grapple and #3 win another grapple check once grapped to pin the elemental and #4, accomplish all this before they are 200' in the air and being dropped. At CR5, they're grapple check isn't that amazing, especially with animal growth out of the picture.
They could win though. That fight allows you to have your companion and be ready and have some long duration buffs running and the CR5 elemental can be killed pretty quick if you get on top of it. It's a hard encounter but not impossible. The CR7 one not so much, but by then the druid could have freedom of movement and not fuss.
Also your tactic runs into problems with weight even if it can lift them, because if I remember right there is a rule about flying with a heavy load too. Something along the lines of, you can't do it.
Stupid is having an ability that is impossible to use against normal opposition.
Under your interpretation then an air elemental outside is probably the deadliest CR5 encounter around. If it gets the jump on a full party of level 5 adventurers (which CharOp boards notwithstanding do not normally have the ability to either fly or survive a 100' fall) it could scoop them all up and dump them before the adventurers get an action. If it gets surprise it could easily start at 100' distance, move up, gather the party and dump them from some 180' up without any of them getting to act. That falls under thats stupid also.
Air elementals should be deadly in environments where they are free to use their mobility. Water elementals are certainly deadly in water, where they can use their equivalent whirlpool attack, and earth elementals are deadly where they can use earth glide to advantage. Without whirlwind they're pushovers. They do crap damage, have two weak saves and have nothing special for AC/defenses except for the DR.
Elementals do scale badly as they go from medium to large, and large to huge, but I've seen many parties cope with tactics similar to what was described. People make the saves, people have feather fall or tough out the fall, people spot them, get init whatever. They're also not especially bright, no smarter than an ogre. One weakness is that elementals don't hide well, and to use these tactics it needs open terrain. This usually means they do NOT get the drop on the party, and the party has time to prepare defenses. Heck, tanglefoot bags even work on size large versions. It takes a std action to activate the whirlwind and that tends to give away your position. So even if they do get surprise, there is usually some chance to respond or at least minimizes the drop distance.
I really can't see what the big deal is. This isn't a patch on ghoul glyph, kobolds with spell storing arrows or even the shocker lizard encounters. It's a tough encounter but most of the builds I've seen will likely survive it, hard as it is on the NPC's. If Whirlwind doesn't work on a typical PC even if he fails the save, it's boring.
Encounter 2: Bloodthirsty.
Show
Before leaving the tavern, I acquire a club from the bouncer or the guard, as I do not feel terribly safe in the city. These are legal to have in the city per rules above. This is assuming that I didn't already have something like this upon entering the city. This also is reasonable for my character to do, as he walks around all day with one of his three weapons out.
This is happening 15 minutes later in the alleyway.
I win initiative (+8 vs +5). Neither of them are included in my aura.
Round 1:
I charge the ranger (jumping over the dog (dogs are normally 3-4 feet tall, I jump over a 5' square 55% of the time, and a 3' dog 95% of the time)), power attacking for 1 (ac 15 vs +10 80%), hitting for (1d6+1d6+7+2) = 16 damage. I activate my bracers of quick strike to give me another attack (80, 160) which drops him to -2 (lethal damage).
Ranger fails his stabilization check (10) and bleeds for 1 hp.
Dog attacks me (+5 vs ac (10+4+2-2-2-1-1) 10, 80%) for 8.5 damage (1d6+3+2) and a possible trip (+2 vs +5, 65% to stay on my feet). This triggers Fire Riposte (+11 vs 12, 95%, 255%), which drops the dog to -1 (lethal damage).
Bard, per encounter, attempts a charm person, on me, as the ranger is down (dc 16 vs +5, 50%) which fails. It then single moves away. (without this single move away, I can rabid wolf strike him for the win)
End of round 1: Ranger: -3, Dog: -1, Bard: Full, Me: full.
Round 2:
I include the ranger/dog in my aura to stabilize them, regain my maneuvers, and try to talk with the bard.
Ranger: heals 1 hp, stabilizing.
Dog: heals 1 hp, stabilizing
Bard: single moves closer to me, and charm person's me (dc 16 vs +5, 50%, 100%), which succeeds this time. Who tells me to drop my club and ... um ... do what I am already wanting to do?
End of round 2: Ranger: -2, Dog: 0, Bard: Full, Me: Charmed.
Round 3+
I am unsure what will happen next, as well as who won this ... Do we wait until the ranger gets up to half (17 rounds) then they start attacking me again? Does the 17 rounds under charm person give enough information that they aren't planning on attacking me? Does the guard come and investigate?
This is happening 15 minutes later in the alleyway.
I win initiative (+8 vs +5). Neither of them are included in my aura.
Round 1:
I charge the ranger (jumping over the dog (dogs are normally 3-4 feet tall, I jump over a 5' square 55% of the time, and a 3' dog 95% of the time)), power attacking for 1 (ac 15 vs +10 80%), hitting for (1d6+1d6+7+2) = 16 damage. I activate my bracers of quick strike to give me another attack (80, 160) which drops him to -2 (lethal damage).
Ranger fails his stabilization check (10) and bleeds for 1 hp.
Dog attacks me (+5 vs ac (10+4+2-2-2-1-1) 10, 80%) for 8.5 damage (1d6+3+2) and a possible trip (+2 vs +5, 65% to stay on my feet). This triggers Fire Riposte (+11 vs 12, 95%, 255%), which drops the dog to -1 (lethal damage).
Bard, per encounter, attempts a charm person, on me, as the ranger is down (dc 16 vs +5, 50%) which fails. It then single moves away. (without this single move away, I can rabid wolf strike him for the win)
End of round 1: Ranger: -3, Dog: -1, Bard: Full, Me: full.
Round 2:
I include the ranger/dog in my aura to stabilize them, regain my maneuvers, and try to talk with the bard.
Ranger: heals 1 hp, stabilizing.
Dog: heals 1 hp, stabilizing
Bard: single moves closer to me, and charm person's me (dc 16 vs +5, 50%, 100%), which succeeds this time. Who tells me to drop my club and ... um ... do what I am already wanting to do?
End of round 2: Ranger: -2, Dog: 0, Bard: Full, Me: Charmed.
Round 3+
I am unsure what will happen next, as well as who won this ... Do we wait until the ranger gets up to half (17 rounds) then they start attacking me again? Does the 17 rounds under charm person give enough information that they aren't planning on attacking me? Does the guard come and investigate?
Heck, tanglefoot bags even work on size large versions. It takes a std action to activate the whirlwind and that tends to give away your position. So even if they do get surprise, there is usually some chance to respond or at least minimizes the drop distance.
Surprise round 1:
I draw a tanglefoot bag
Round 1: (it wins init)
Air elemental engulfs me. (DC 16 is rough, especially since we add up the saves, and the rough one is the second one)
I attack it with my tanglefoot bag (it saves easily).
Round 2: It goes up 100 ft (1/2 movement because of the bag).
Um ... I die?
So that doesn't work ...
Most of the contestants do not have flight, levitate, freedom of movement, etc ... so most will die. This is the concern expressed ... My multiclassed character DOES have flight possibilities as well as enlarge person, so I might live ... unsure at present.
However, the DMM cleric should do really well with this ... DR 10/ means no swirling damage, and +lots to saving throws might mean it succeeds.
But ... Grizley wasn't saying that whirlwind doesn't work on a normal PC, just that the Air Elemental needs to worry about weight. It can pick me up (just barely) with medium encumbrance ... and I think I weigh the most of anyone here (excepting alter self people -- who probably are not in that form at this time).
Yes, what happens is that the bard questions you while you're charmed, he realizes it is a misunderstanding and calms down the ranger when he wakes up.
This is unusual in the gauntlets where you can "lose" but still continue.
What you demonstrated is that a caster with will save/xxx plus melee blockers has a good chance of defeating your build, but that you also are very dangerous to them. Question - if you just attacked the bard instead of talking could you drop him before he charmed you? I suspect not since your maneuvers need refreshing, but you'd rip a pretty big chunk out of him.
But ... Grizley wasn't saying that whirlwind doesn't work on a normal PC, just that the Air Elemental needs to worry about weight. It can pick me up (just barely) with medium encumbrance ... and I think I weigh the most of anyone here (excepting alter self people -- who probably are not in that form at this time).
Unless otherwise stated (eg fly spell, overland flight) most creatures can't fly at all if they're encumberd past light. So it won't work on any normal medium sized PC under Grizley's ruling.
To take a few points.....I think most characters have a shot at this, but they also might die.
If your char or Bela makes the DC16 save or can roll a dc16 concentration check in the first round (con of both is fairly high), they can enlarge and turn it into a slugfest. A slugfest that the elemental will probably lose. Alternately your char (but not Bela until CR7) can get out potion of fly and ready to drink it when he's dropped. Hm. Bela L5 round 1 could transpose out and drink his enlarge potion (fly potion at L5). So he'll at least get a straight up fight if he's not used his transpositions yet.
The druid...it has to sweep up both him and his companion to be really dangerous at CR5 and he has option to wildshape into something that flies instead of the fleshraker and wait out the whirlwind (at CR5, they can only whirlwind for 4 rounds, and the surprise round is one of them). Or he might pull off a grapple. It's a problem though because if his companion is smushed, or he wildshapes to a different form his offensive potential is greatly reduced.
The DMM cleric needs a way to survive a 200' drop. If he can do that he'll likely win with his DR and elemental damage.
The arcanists, any of them, really just need feather fall or fly prepared.
The bottle of smoke summoner guy really risks only one drop, because the smoke will slow them down in locating him. If he's clever about movement somehow or adds a spell into the mix he might outwait the whirlwinds and bury them in greenbound summonings.
the UMD rogue will likely make his reflex save in the first place
Everyone will have to pull out some good tactics or abilites and need a little luck but this is a hard, not impossible challenge. If you didn't mess up with your former party members, physical damage will be boosted with a +2/+2 bardsong too and you'll have the surprise round to do something useful. If you actually had your 4 person party (with Elmo) you might have been able to beat all 3 elementals. I ran and played this encounter in Living Greyhawk and it was dangerous at APL6 with 3 elementals, at the very top end of a CR9 encounter for a level 6 party. Close calls were common, the occasional death happened but the PC's always won. (at APL8, with 3 huge elementals, that one was a bit over the top. The party I ran it for really only succeeded by getting a lucky dismissal on one with readied "surprise round" action on the approach. They were then able to cope with the two remaining).
At CR7, I expect all of the spellcasters will have flight or air walk options at minimum and the fighters can afford potions of fly, so they'll cope but it's still a tough fight.
By the results, whirlwinding air elementals in their element are probably a CR higher than the monster manual states. But these gauntlets routinely have had these characters defeating CR6 encounters so even if it's a very strong CR5, it isn't unreasonable.
It's ok that some encounters are deadly for some characters. Those shocker lizard encounters are lethal if folks don't happen to have evasion or a big protection lightning up as a routine thing. The spectre encounter can also be very deadly, the grapplemonster encounters as well. Not to mention pouncing Taurans with attack mods as high as most people's AC...
That looks good Meyer. You do have the lion totem to pounce on your charge right? (otherwise bracers of quickstrike don't give an extra attack)
Yes, what happens is that the bard questions you while you're charmed, he realizes it is a misunderstanding and calms down the ranger when he wakes up.
This is unusual in the gauntlets where you can "lose" but still continue.
What you demonstrated is that a caster with will save/xxx plus melee blockers has a good chance of defeating your build, but that you also are very dangerous to them. Question - if you just attacked the bard instead of talking could you drop him before he charmed you? I suspect not since your maneuvers need refreshing, but you'd rip a pretty big chunk out of him.
Yes, I have pounce ...
The funny thing is ... I could drop the bard round 1, by jumping over the ranger but the ranger takes me down by his three attacks/round, each of which are touch attacks vs my lower ac (tanglefoot bag) when you include the bard's singing. So, since (pre-encounter information) we know the enemies stats (we adventure with them) I am taking out the ranger first.
I recognize that casters with will save spells are tough for me to beat IF they get a chance to do anything. However, improved init, dex, and aggressive help make sure that I get an action ... and one action is normally enough to handle a mage (unless they are an uber-buffed mage). Worst case, I end my action adjacent to them normally (reach weapon) and ready an action to swing if they cast or move. This is usually a good spell disruption technique.
Now, if I wanted to hurt my buddy (bard) I would move+sudden jump to get adjacent to the bard, and rabid wolf strike him ... dropping him to low single digits ... but ... not enough for the win, so why bother? right? Especially if you act as your character does -- and don't want to unnecessarily hurt your party members. Now, had I not raged in the first encounter, then I could have dropped the bard before I was charmed.
The maneuvers I have used (fire riposte) do not matter ... except if I am going to be attacked.
Without that, an encounter like this is dangerous for your character but it's more of a coin toss than a sure loss. It's a decent exhibition of what your build can do. I wonder how the dynamic will play out at CR7, where there are two casters and two groups of melees, but they'll drop like popcorn.
This is kind of like the frick and frack encounter, except that the spells focus on save/die and the splash weapons are not ignorable for most builds.
Unless otherwise stated (eg fly spell, overland flight) most creatures can't fly at all if they're encumberd past light. So it won't work on any normal medium sized PC under Grizley's ruling.
As the person making the encounters (you) ... things can be done in ways that might not be normal DnD (spellstoring fireballs, etc) ... but people can still gripe about them, or choose not to do them.
If your char or Bela makes the DC16 save or can roll a dc16 concentration check in the first round (con of both is fairly high), they can enlarge and turn it into a slugfest.
My ref save is +5 (50%) I make the first one, but fail the second. For a character to make both, we would need a +10 ref save (at 5th level).
We need a +5 concentration check to meet the 50% threshold for drinking a potion -- which, luckily enough for me, I have (conc is going to be useful when i start gaining levels in swordsage) -- but you don't (even if you rage). So you get picked up and dropped 200 ft, 20d6 = 70 damage (death).
Bela L5 round 1 could transpose out and drink his enlarge potion (fly potion at L5). So he'll at least get a straight up fight if he's not used his transpositions yet.
Which is why I asked earlier what resources we used during the day (none).
However, a lot of the casters have something like this (abrupt jaunt) so maybe it won't be as deadly as we initially thought.
The druid...it has to sweep up both him and his companion to be really dangerous at CR5 and he has option to wildshape into something that flies instead of the fleshraker and wait out the whirlwind (at CR5, they can only whirlwind for 4 rounds, and the surprise round is one of them). Or he might pull off a grapple. It's a problem though because if his companion is smushed, or he wildshapes to a different form his offensive potential is greatly reduced.
So ... if the druid who only gets 1 wild shape a day, beats the werebear without benefit of his animal companion or using wild shape ... then it has a chance to escape plunging to its death?
The DMM cleric needs a way to survive a 200' drop. If he can do that he'll likely win with his DR and elemental damage.
The last posting of DMM cleric (while using incantrix/etc) has a +11 ref save, so he can live through round one.
The arcanists, any of them, really just need feather fall or fly prepared.
None of them (to my knowledge) have that prepared or known. However, they could alter self into something with a fly speed (maybe).
The bottle of smoke summoner guy really risks only one drop, because the smoke will slow them down in locating him. If he's clever about movement somehow or adds a spell into the mix he might outwait the whirlwinds and bury them in greenbound summonings.
One drop = death. 70 damage is enough to kill players at 5th level.
the UMD rogue will likely make his reflex save in the first place
No, he makes his first save, but fails the second due to carry-over.
By the results, whirlwinding air elementals in their element are probably a CR higher than the monster manual states. But these gauntlets routinely have had these characters defeating CR6 encounters so even if it's a very strong CR5, it isn't unreasonable.
If whirlwind works the way you say it does ... then yes they are high CR5 or CR6+, if it works the way Grizley says, then they are weak CR5 creatures.
By the way, with limiting characters as you are doing (peacebound, no animal companion for part of it, etc) ... this might actually be EL6, not CR5.
Not to mention pouncing Taurans with attack mods as high as most people's AC...
And people wonder why I am not normally concerned with my AC.
That's about what I thought. To win this for sure you need to drop the bard or do something like grapple him. (which actually isn't hard since I neglected to arm him, if you can get past dog and ranger).
Grapple won't work for the win, as long as you make sure that the bard has max ranks in concentration (which it currently doesn't), as it can easily make the DC for casting spells in a grapple, which charms me ... ending the fight.
Without that, an encounter like this is dangerous for your character but it's more of a coin toss than a sure loss. It's a decent exhibition of what your build can do. I wonder how the dynamic will play out at CR7, where there are two casters and two groups of melees, but they'll drop like popcorn.
Nah, this isn't dangerous for me ... there is no penalty for losing. I am slightly more mobile than the NPCs ... the dog(s) die if they bite me (without slowing me down).
But no, at character level 5, they do not drop like pop-corn, I can take out a max of one per round, whereas the rangers tanglefoot bag spam us for the win.
The last posting of DMM cleric (while using incantrix/etc) has a +11 ref save, so he can live through round one.
Yeah, been busy, had a second term start up, different classes, different workload. Eventually I'll get around to an update. I do like this adventure.
200 feet = 20d6 = 70 damage? A jump check at the top and a tumble at the bottom will bring that down to 63, DR 10/Evil or 10/Magic will drop it to 53, but I still only have 46 HP.
As the person making the encounters (you) ... things can be done in ways that might not be normal DnD (spellstoring fireballs, etc) ... but people can still gripe about them, or choose not to do them.
I'll probably get around to it. It takes a damn long time to run something like that though and then someone spots a +1 you were off by and you have to do the whole thing again.
My ref save is +5 (50%) I make the first one, but fail the second. For a character to make both, we would need a +10 ref save (at 5th level).
I think the rogue and druid/fleshraker make the +10 ref level. I would have to check though since I think that included buffs.
Which is why I asked earlier what resources we used during the day (none).
However, a lot of the casters have something like this (abrupt jaunt) so maybe it won't be as deadly as we initially thought.
Good point, all those ankles of translocation make the elementals pretty toothless. They could drop you, but as per their posted tactics they won't.
So ... if the druid who only gets 1 wild shape a day, beats the werebear without benefit of his animal companion or using wild shape ... then it has a chance to escape plunging to its death?
His animal companion is likely to do all the beating of the werebear without help. The fleshraker is only medium size unbuffed and will charge in on round one and lay down some serious dex debuffing poison action. The bear doesn't have the dex to sustain 11.5 dex drain a round for long.
One drop = death. 70 damage is enough to kill players at 5th level.
Pretty much. I had to check one of the other builds I was working on, it was close but he would still die. Any guesses what race/class that was? ;) Hint, its a caster.
No, he makes his first save, but fails the second due to carry-over.
The way we do saves makes the 2 ref save especially nasty. Especially since it says the pickup save is the second. Almost everyone passes the first save, but a second save requires a pretty stacked ref save, and that only works for a single round. I'm sure there is a specific number that can fail save 1 and 3 and pass save 2 and 4, or maybe pass save 1 and 2 and fail save 3 then pass save 4 but thats pretty metagamey to try to figure out exactly the magic number that will work. Especially since high isn't the best answer necessarily.
If whirlwind works the way you say it does ... then yes they are high CR5 or CR6+, if it works the way Grizley says, then they are weak CR5 creatures.
By the way, with limiting characters as you are doing (peacebound, no animal companion for part of it, etc) ... this might actually be EL6, not CR5.
I would say at least CR6. Putting environmental limitations like that on a character really can jack up the challenge rating. Of course I find it odd but amusing that they require the Fleshraker to be muzzled while walking the streets... but don't care about his venom dripping claws and tail. Hey, its just a medium animal, go ahead buddy take him on inside just make sure he doesn't bite anyone.
And people wonder why I am not normally concerned with my AC.
I do, considering you get mauled by a bunch of encounters that other people skate through because they have 20 points of AC on you. ;)
We need a +5 concentration check to meet the 50% threshold for drinking a potion -- which, luckily enough for me, I have (conc is going to be useful when i start gaining levels in swordsage) -- but you don't (even if you rage). So you get picked up and dropped 200 ft, 20d6 = 70 damage (death).
Can't combine rage with concentration but Bela has a different set of tricks. Anklets of translocation can get him out long enough to drink a potion. If he didn't use them up. That's what I mean. We all probably have some way of coping long enough to survive 3 rounds of whirlwind+surprise round.
At L7, everyone should be able to cope with whirlwind.
Response (Support Agent) 01/08/2008 07:34 PM
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These abilities can be a bit confusing. Fire Riposte is indeed an attack, so if you used it while in Punishing Stance, you would deal 5d6 points of fire damage if successful.
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These abilities can be a bit confusing. Fire Riposte is indeed an attack, so if you used it while in Punishing Stance, you would deal 5d6 points of fire damage if successful.
Good Gaming!
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At the level we're looking at right now, it is difficult, but not impossible, to make a caster that is totally broken/overpowered. I think in just a few levels (~7-9), it gets signifigantly easier. If we get to that point, I'll certainly be interested in posting characters that I think are clearly broken, and whose tricks can't be easily replicated by non-casters via UMD. I think the character I made for Tsuyoshikentsu's online game a while back would qualify. It was level 11, but some of the broken things it did could have been pulled off earlier.
Level 5 ... your character is a non-caster ... it has levels in human paragon and hexblade (casting progression similar to ranger) ... care to take him through any of the mini-adventures?
I'll probably get around to it. It takes a damn long time to run something like that though and then someone spots a +1 you were off by and you have to do the whole thing again.
Good point, all those ankles of translocation make the elementals pretty toothless. They could drop you, but as per their posted tactics they won't.
They will the first round. The second round, if he didn't do something like enlarge or fly, he's toast, as the elemental is within 10' of him, 15' with 5' step.
His animal companion is likely to do all the beating of the werebear without help. The fleshraker is only medium size unbuffed and will charge in on round one and lay down some serious dex debuffing poison action. The bear doesn't have the dex to sustain 11.5 dex drain a round for long.
The companion is in the stable, not in the tavern. Unless you run to the stable and let the bear mangle bar patrons, you don't have him in the first encounter. If you do have him..don't you have to do damage on poison to get the poison. I'd think the DR10/silver would be a problem.
The way we do saves makes the 2 ref save especially nasty.
Yes, I don't like that as our "average" dice are skewing the encounter to make it more dangerous than it is. What about randomizing the order? We're using honor system on confusion, we could do it here too.
amusing that they require the Fleshraker to be muzzled while walking the streets... but don't care about his venom dripping claws and tail. Hey, its just a medium animal, go ahead buddy take him on inside just make sure he doesn't bite anyone.
I wanted to have some kind of peacebond on claws too, but I couldn't visualize a way to do it without actually requiring cages for all animals that didn't have hooves. The fleshraker is something the local laws have not adapted to yet. After your visit they may have something on the books about venom if your dinosaur causes problems
As stated, the taverns don't allow any animals, not even dogs. Something like a raven familiar that could talk would pass, and some familiars can hide on their master, but you'll get fined if they're discovered.
I would say at least CR6. Putting environmental limitations like that on a character really can jack up the challenge rating.
Well it's one of those things you get in real games a lot and why CR's are only a rough guide. It takes a lot of environmental effects to actually shift something a CR and most encounters have some mitigating effects.
The DMM cleric for example is probably delighted that the werebear can't use his peacebonded +1 greataxe and you can choose to buy time by letting the bear eat locals (as Meyers did, because of his healing aura). The bard and ranger are abiding by the local weapon and animal restrictions, and losing doesn't end the adventure for you. The elementals have tactics designed to protect them from a dangerous party, rather than tactics most likely to kill the solo PC before he can act. The last two encounters are in decent environments for the bad guys, but not ideal.
Some environmental factors have a bigger effect on specific character types. Just as being underwater takes away many of Bela's options (restricting mobility, weapon choices, taking away ranged combat etc), being in a tavern sucks when half your power is in your animal companion. I'm not going to avoid using an environment because a specific character has a harder time with it. Taverns, cities with laws, elementals in an element that allows them to use their abilities...this isn't unusual where I play.
Well it's one of those things you get in real games a lot and why CR's are only a rough guide. It takes a lot of environmental effects to actually shift something a CR and most encounters have some mitigating effects.
Do you have an objection to me listing this as EL6 instead of CR5?
Grapple won't work for the win, as long as you make sure that the bard has max ranks in concentration (which it currently doesn't), as it can easily make the DC for casting spells in a grapple, which charms me ... ending the fight.
Charm Person has a somatic component, so can't be cast in a grapple (the Concentration check is to cast spells with no somatic components, like Dimension Door). Grapple is a pretty good way of locking down casters who don't have PC wealth for anklets of translocation, in the levels before D-Door / Heart of Water / Freedom of Movement are available.
Do you have an objection to me listing this as EL6 instead of CR5?
Eh maybe. I'd prefer something like CR5+environment. I actually don't think any of the first 3 encounters are sufficiently tilted against the PC (without mitigating NPC restrictions) to justify a CR bump, but I'd rather have an encounter or two listed as CR6 than have people not try it out.
I'd go with either encounters 1,3,4,5 being CR5 and #2 being CR6 (per strictly creature calculations) or 1-2 being CR5 and 3 being CR6 (based on which is most likely to kill a solo character) with 4-5 assumed CR5 until playtesting proves it's harder than expected.
If we're setting CR's based on player difficulty rather than formulas, I think some of the other challenges need their CR's looked at though. The ghoul glyph in the second crypt challenge, the final boss in planar challenge, all the shocker lizard encounters and the spell storing arrow encounter all come to mind.
Seriously though, my preference on this isn't very strong. I laid out an adventure true to the structure kinds of adventures I play in real life and with typical CR calculations (it's rare to raise or lower the published CR, although I did in encounter 2 largely because you can punt it and still move forward). If the consensus is that this affects the CR's where the "enter cave while fully buffed" encounters don't, I'm ok with that. However you calculate the CR's I'll be quite impressed with any character that doesn't stumble somewhere in my adventure, even if it's only with your former party members.
So ... if the druid who only gets 1 wild shape a day, beats the werebear without benefit of his animal companion or using wild shape ... then it has a chance to escape plunging to its death?
City adventures can be hard on druids yes. Some of why CoD is overrated is people assume the druid can really be wildshaped all the time and bring his nasty companion with him everywhere. They can also be hard on melee types that because many cities or social events in cities have arbitrary weapon and/or armor restrictions.
Frankly I feel the fleshraker build is fragile, it depends too much on the druid controlling the encounters. It will be either amazingly strong or subiconic, depending on the circumstances. Should it survive the first 3 encounters, it will kick butt in the final two, probably. Those are in the woods with PC's as active characters, usually, against foes you can get to with normal tactics and if you play your cards right, you might detect them without being detected, allowing you to back off out of earshot and return with full buffs.
I didn't write this module to hose any build though. All of the encounters except #4 were lifted from LG adventures I've played in, and then adapted to make the story and CR's fit. Ok...encounter #2 Julia and Alexander aren't from a real game, but archers that could hit PC's reliably, expendible meat shields and bards doing countersongs and save/die's are something I've encountered several times, often in level ranges 4-8. Once even on a city street.
Adapting that to a mere CR5 is tricky - when you're facing a whole party you have an easier time putting together a balanced team.
I've fought the monsters in #4 at this level range too, but not in that environment. I chose them for plot reasons mainly....they were created from the wild mage tribe same time the bear went berserk. Moon and dream magic is risky stuff. But they also have some abilities not seen in earlier encounters.
Charm Person has a somatic component, so can't be cast in a grapple (the Concentration check is to cast spells with no somatic components,
Even if the bard had some way of casting it, at level 4 with maxed concentration and his 14 constitution he's still only got a +9 to his check. He'd fail concentration 55% of the time.
Being grappled just sucks, even if you do have countermeasures.
I am re-reading this thread ... looking for things I might have missed.
Level 5 ... your character is a non-caster ... it has levels in human paragon and hexblade (casting progression similar to ranger) ... care to take him through any of the mini-adventures?
Umm... no. It is a caster build. It just doesn't start casting till level 6. By level 14 it has 9th level cleric spells. It also sucks at level 5 compared to what it can do later. Anyway, I don't really care to run it through this at level 5. If we ever get to level 9 and up, I might run it through some. I think at ECL 11 it is insanely overpowered, and it only gets worse. The original does use some dragon magazine material, though.
Here is Hubert vs. the original CR 5 gauntlet. Although I think it would be fair to start him with the zombie from the last one, I won't. Hubert's main weapons are his summoned shadows, not zombies. He could probably defeat everything without using a scroll of Animate Dead, but it certainly makes things easier to use zombies as "meat shields". Hubert himself is kind of fragile.
Since the shadows are powerless in sunlight, he sets out at night. Before hand, he uses his scrolls of False Life and Favorable Sacrifice, drinks his Elixir of Hiding, and makes a "scarecrow" with an Unseen Servant, as before. The Unseen Servant takes the lead, carrying the "scarecrow". Hubert instructs the Unseen Servant to walk until it is attacked or told otherwise, and follows behind it, hiding.
Encounter 1
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The manticore's Darkvision only reaches 60 feet, but it can see the "scarecrow" from a much greater distance due to the Everburning Torch it is carrying. The manticore is unlikely to see through the disguise initially, due to penalties to its spot checks from distance (+9 Spot vs +9 Disguise, not counting the -1 for every 10 feet). It is impossible for it to actually see Hubert hiding nearby if it fires spikes from max range using Flyby attack, which is the smartest thing for it to do in general (+18 Hide vs +9 Spot, plus -18 for distance).
So we'll say it starts volleying the "scarecrow" with spikes. It is also kind of stupid, and probably won't realize it is not attacking a real creature even after the first volley of spikes.
Surprize round:
Manticore flies up and spikes the "scarecrow" from 180 feet using Flyby Attack, and continues its movement to fly away again.
Round 1:
Manticore wins initiative, and spikes the "scarecrow" again using a Flyby attack. Hubert pulls out a Tanglefoot bag and readies to hit the manticore with it, if it comes within 20 feet of him. The Unseen Servant stops moving, as previously instructed.
Round 2:
The manticore begins to be suspicious, and instead of flying away after spiking, it flies towards the scarecrow, to observe it more closely. It ends 130 feet away, which is still too far for it to smell what's going on, and still outside the torchlight so Hubert can't see it. It notices that the scarecrow doesn't react when hit, and isn't doing anything.
Hubert continues to ready his action.
Round 3:
The manticore flies right above the "scarecrow's" head. It smells Hubert, but does not see him and doesn't know his direction (that requires a Move action with scent).
Hubert's readied action goes off, and he hits the manticore with a tanglefoot bag (+3 ranged touch -1 range vs. ffTouchAC9, 70%/100 hits). It makes the save (+7 vs DC15, 65/100 success) to avoid being grounded, but is still entangled (-2 attacks, -4 Dex, can't run or charge). This will last for 5 rounds. He tells the Unseen Servant to run to him, and it does.
Round 4:
Hubert now acts before the manticore. He summons a shadow 10 feet from the manticore, moves 30 feet, and drops prone. The shadow charges the manticore and touches it (+5 vs TouchAC9, 85%/100 hits) doing 3.5 Str damage.
The manticore roars with rage, and fires spikes at Hubert. It's spike attacks are now +6 (1d8+1) vs Hubert's prone AC 23. It misses (+6 vs 23, 20%/100), misses (40/100), hits (60/100), misses (80/200), and misses (100/200). After Hubert's DR, it does only 0.5 damage, which is taken off his temporary hit points.
End of Round (EoR): Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-3.5 Str) and entangled (4/5 rounds), shadow full (4/5 rounds).
Round 5:
The shadow hits the manticore again (+3 vs AC9, 75+85=160/200) for 3.5 more str damage. Hubert uses the "fight defensively" action and stands up. The manticore flies over to him, drawing an AoO from the shadow which misses (75+160=225/300).
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-7 str) and entangled (3/5 rounds), shadow full (3/5 rounds).
Round 6:
The shadow charges the manticore and hits (85+160=245/200) for 3.5 more Str damage (10.5 total now). Hubert moves away, and draws another tanglefoot bag. The manticore tries to hit him with an AoO. Its str is now 9.5, and its claw attack is +4 (2d4-1). It misses (+4 vs 19, 25%+100=125/200). It tries to claw the shadow (+4 vs AC11, 70%+125=195/200, hits), but its claw passes right through it, doing nothing.
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-10.5 str) and entangled (2/5 rounds), shadow full (2/5 rounds).
Round 7:
The shadow hits the manticore again (75+245=320/300) for 3.5 str. Hubert delays to go after the manticore. The manticore (its Str now 6) begins to panic, and tries to flee by flying 50 feet. It draws an AoO from the shadow (320+75=395/400) and takes another 3.5 str damage. Hubert double moves to right next to the manticore. The Unseen Servant dissipates.
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (Str is 2.5) and entangled (1/5 rounds), shadow full (1/5 rounds).
Round 8:
The shadow charges the manticore (85+395=480/500) and kills it.
The manticore's Darkvision only reaches 60 feet, but it can see the "scarecrow" from a much greater distance due to the Everburning Torch it is carrying. The manticore is unlikely to see through the disguise initially, due to penalties to its spot checks from distance (+9 Spot vs +9 Disguise, not counting the -1 for every 10 feet). It is impossible for it to actually see Hubert hiding nearby if it fires spikes from max range using Flyby attack, which is the smartest thing for it to do in general (+18 Hide vs +9 Spot, plus -18 for distance).
So we'll say it starts volleying the "scarecrow" with spikes. It is also kind of stupid, and probably won't realize it is not attacking a real creature even after the first volley of spikes.
Surprize round:
Manticore flies up and spikes the "scarecrow" from 180 feet using Flyby Attack, and continues its movement to fly away again.
Round 1:
Manticore wins initiative, and spikes the "scarecrow" again using a Flyby attack. Hubert pulls out a Tanglefoot bag and readies to hit the manticore with it, if it comes within 20 feet of him. The Unseen Servant stops moving, as previously instructed.
Round 2:
The manticore begins to be suspicious, and instead of flying away after spiking, it flies towards the scarecrow, to observe it more closely. It ends 130 feet away, which is still too far for it to smell what's going on, and still outside the torchlight so Hubert can't see it. It notices that the scarecrow doesn't react when hit, and isn't doing anything.
Hubert continues to ready his action.
Round 3:
The manticore flies right above the "scarecrow's" head. It smells Hubert, but does not see him and doesn't know his direction (that requires a Move action with scent).
Hubert's readied action goes off, and he hits the manticore with a tanglefoot bag (+3 ranged touch -1 range vs. ffTouchAC9, 70%/100 hits). It makes the save (+7 vs DC15, 65/100 success) to avoid being grounded, but is still entangled (-2 attacks, -4 Dex, can't run or charge). This will last for 5 rounds. He tells the Unseen Servant to run to him, and it does.
Round 4:
Hubert now acts before the manticore. He summons a shadow 10 feet from the manticore, moves 30 feet, and drops prone. The shadow charges the manticore and touches it (+5 vs TouchAC9, 85%/100 hits) doing 3.5 Str damage.
The manticore roars with rage, and fires spikes at Hubert. It's spike attacks are now +6 (1d8+1) vs Hubert's prone AC 23. It misses (+6 vs 23, 20%/100), misses (40/100), hits (60/100), misses (80/200), and misses (100/200). After Hubert's DR, it does only 0.5 damage, which is taken off his temporary hit points.
End of Round (EoR): Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-3.5 Str) and entangled (4/5 rounds), shadow full (4/5 rounds).
Round 5:
The shadow hits the manticore again (+3 vs AC9, 75+85=160/200) for 3.5 more str damage. Hubert uses the "fight defensively" action and stands up. The manticore flies over to him, drawing an AoO from the shadow which misses (75+160=225/300).
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-7 str) and entangled (3/5 rounds), shadow full (3/5 rounds).
Round 6:
The shadow charges the manticore and hits (85+160=245/200) for 3.5 more Str damage (10.5 total now). Hubert moves away, and draws another tanglefoot bag. The manticore tries to hit him with an AoO. Its str is now 9.5, and its claw attack is +4 (2d4-1). It misses (+4 vs 19, 25%+100=125/200). It tries to claw the shadow (+4 vs AC11, 70%+125=195/200, hits), but its claw passes right through it, doing nothing.
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (-10.5 str) and entangled (2/5 rounds), shadow full (2/5 rounds).
Round 7:
The shadow hits the manticore again (75+245=320/300) for 3.5 str. Hubert delays to go after the manticore. The manticore (its Str now 6) begins to panic, and tries to flee by flying 50 feet. It draws an AoO from the shadow (320+75=395/400) and takes another 3.5 str damage. Hubert double moves to right next to the manticore. The Unseen Servant dissipates.
EoR: Hubert 32+8/32, Manticore full (Str is 2.5) and entangled (1/5 rounds), shadow full (1/5 rounds).
Round 8:
The shadow charges the manticore (85+395=480/500) and kills it.
Umm... no. It is a caster build. It just doesn't start casting till level 6. By level 14 it has 9th level cleric spells. It also sucks at level 5 compared to what it can do later. Anyway, I don't really care to run it through this at level 5. If we ever get to level 9 and up, I might run it through some. I think at ECL 11 it is insanely overpowered, and it only gets worse. The original does use some dragon magazine material, though.
Ok. Like I said, I was just surfing through the thread and saw that ...
They will the first round. The second round, if he didn't do something like enlarge or fly, he's toast, as the elemental is within 10' of him, 15' with 5' step.
But if they moved they wouldn't be able to move 200' up. Your notes said they wouldn't try to drop until they could.
The companion is in the stable, not in the tavern. Unless you run to the stable and let the bear mangle bar patrons, you don't have him in the first encounter. If you do have him..don't you have to do damage on poison to get the poison. I'd think the DR10/silver would be a problem.
Bzzt. Unless you are changing the rules animals of size less than large can come into the city as long as they are muzzled. As I said, he will be muzzled and give up his bite in favor of the tail.
Also the dr will hardly be a problem, first I don't even think it has be beat the dr and I'm pretty sure its attacks will beat the dr.
Yes, I don't like that as our "average" dice are skewing the encounter to make it more dangerous than it is. What about randomizing the order? We're using honor system on confusion, we could do it here too.
Well its pretty clear that the lift is second. I don't think our average dice work well in some cases, this happens to be one of them.
I wanted to have some kind of peacebond on claws too, but I couldn't visualize a way to do it without actually requiring cages for all animals that didn't have hooves. The fleshraker is something the local laws have not adapted to yet. After your visit they may have something on the books about venom if your dinosaur causes problems
Heaven forbid, Pouncy is just the most loveable cuddliest poisonous dinosaur around.
As stated, the taverns don't allow any animals, not even dogs. Something like a raven familiar that could talk would pass, and some familiars can hide on their master, but you'll get fined if they're discovered.
He wouldn't stay inside, but he could certainly stay outside with the horses. When there is screaming and shouting from inside he will certainly come in, and nobody is going to complain too loudly about the dino attacking the berzerk werebear I would think.
So I can carry around a pebble or a flagon of ale and they'll never know I have a weapon...which gets past the peace-bonding, right?
Bzzt. Unless you are changing the rules animals of size less than large can come into the city as long as they are muzzled. As I said, he will be muzzled and give up his bite in favor of the tail.
Also the dr will hardly be a problem, first I don't even think it has be beat the dr and I'm pretty sure its attacks will beat the dr.
They can come into the city. They can't enter taverns. That restriction is the second sentence of city rules:
"You are in a major walled city. Domestic animals are allowed but not in taverns,
they mostly live in stables or kennels. "
Encounter 2 specifies how to get the animal companion involved if you are confronted in the stables/kennels instead of in your room at the inn or in an alleyway. For wild animals the stable or kennel is reinforced so they don't eat the domestic livestock when they're bored and their master is away.
So no, it isn't in the tavern with you, and the companion is not at a hitching post outside the tavern either. This tavern has stables and kennels and requires its patrons to use them. (and this is typical of taverns in this city, street space is probably at a premium and given that they allow lots of weird beasts on the streets, they don't want unattended animals also in the streets that might panic or whatever)
Even if it was at the hitching post, you'd have to use a handle animal action (free granted, but it has to be able to see or hear you and be able to get free on its own) to come and help. Trained animals in D&D don't do stuff on their own initiative. They do what they are trained to do, as commanded by their master. A dangerous dinosaur on a hitching post in a city is probably on a "Stay" command, to keep it from doing harm to others. But this city doesn't allow unattended animals of any kind in the streets, so it is a moot point.
Ikeren yes, you have slimed past the peace-bonding with your unusual weapon. The writers of the city laws did not imagine such things or figured anyone who could do it could also drop other spell-boom so no point in getting fussy. It's similar to how the poisonous dinosaur is allowed to wander the streets, as long as it is muzzled and accompanied by its master. It's a law intended for more normal people not quite working when up against an unusual PC.
But if they moved they wouldn't be able to move 200' up. Your notes said they wouldn't try to drop until they could.
.
They're not mindless automatons. If 185' is all they can manage that's what they'll do. On round 1 they stay on the ground to scatter the party on the X-Y axis. On round 2, they try to get their target as high on the Z axis as they can and drop them.
If their targeted PC makes the save they try to stay near them so they can try again on round 2 and get as much altitude as they can. (round 1 the elementals succeed in scattering the two other members of the party, so the third elemental on round 2 really isn't feeling the vulnerability of being near his two buddies..he can just focus on his own opponent) This shows another possible way to reduce the damage....be mobile (or do something to interfere with elementla mobiltiy or both). An elemental that is chasing your galloping horse around (300' per round) isn't going to get much opportunity to drop you from a height, since it can only keep up by running itself, and that is a straight line only thing....it can run you over but not veer upwards. Again that works better at CR5 than CR7, since the horse can't be sucked into the elemental at CR5 and the whirlwind wears off in 4 rounds, not 8 rounds (horse might die from damage in 8 rounds)
Tactics are what the monster wants to do. When the fight doesn't go as planned, monsters adapt according to their intelligence.
I'll copy Grizzley's comment and my response into the tactics section of encounter 3. I want the spirit of this to be understood. I thought the comment about ending next to the PC and trying to get them to 195' if they made the save got the spirit across but it is best to be clear.
and nobody is going to complain too loudly about the dino attacking the berzerk werebear I would think.
In a real campaign the deaths caused by the need to go extract your dinosaur from the kennel would be a great roleplay opportunity for your druid, to castigate the tavern owner and city guard for stupid laws that restrict your perfectly trained defender of citizens Pouncy.
But it wouldn't change the fact that some other character might have handled the situation with no innocent deaths. Not all characters are best in all situations.
Note that the scenario allows for PC's who win with lots of commoner deaths. Nobody else is going to stop the werebear before he does even more damage, so rescuing your companion and coming back out to fight the bear is still a "winning" strategy, winning enough to continue. It also gives you your animal ready to fight in the next encounter. Assume there are two doors and about 100' of movement between you and the kennel, plus time to get it open if you really want to track time. In reality all it would matter for is the body count and if you say "I get Pouncy, and commoners die, then we enter the fight" that's ok. The only real consequence is the watch won't hire you to work for the city and you'll have to leave the muzzle on Pouncy (who yes, is free to just use his tail).
Quick question: if I'm undetected because I'm hiding, do I gain the +2 attack bonuses of Invisibility?
"Stealthy Assasin v2.0
Stealthy Assassin v2.0
Whisper Gnome Feat Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Feat Rogue +2
Ability Scores
Str: 6 [8 base -2 race] (0 points)
Dex: 20 [17 base +2 race +1 lvl] (13 points)
Con: 10 [8 base +2 race] (0 points)
Int: 12 [12 base] (4 points)
Wis: 14 [14 base] (6 points)
Cha: 8 [10 base -2 race] (2 points)
HP: 20 [6 + 4.5 + 3.5*3]
AC: 15 [10 +1 size +5 dex -1 flaw]
Init: +5 [+5 dex]
BAB/Grapple: +4/+2 [+4 BAB -2 str]
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fort +4 [+4 base]
Dex +10 [+5 base +5 dex]
Will +3 [+1 base +2 wis]
Traits/Flaws: Illiterate (+1 Hide), Noncombatant, Vulnerable
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), Rapid Reload*, Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)*, Track*, Able Sniper, Crossbow Sniper*
Class Abilities: Trapfinding, Favored Enemy (Undead), Evasion
Important Racial Abilities: Silence 1/day (centered on self), Ghost Sound 1/day
Skills: (54 rogue 3 fighter 7 ranger)
Decipher Script +5 [4 rogue 1 ranger +1 int]
Escape Artist +13 [8 rogue +5 dex]
Hide +30 [6 rogue 2 ranger +5 dex +4 size +4 race +1 trait +3 feat +5 competence] +4 while sniping
Listen +11 [8 rogue +2 wis +2 race]
Move Silently +25 [6 rogue 2 ranger +5 dex +4 race +3 feat +5 competence]
Sleight of Hand +9 [4 rogue +5 dex]
Spot +11 [6 rogue 2 ranger +2 wis +2 race]
Tumble +10 [4 rogue 1/2 fighter 1/2 ranger +5 dex]
Use Magic Device +7 [8 rogue -1 cha] +2 with scrolls
Literacy: 2 fighter
Attacks:
MW Darkwood Light Crossbow:
Attack: +12 [+4 BAB +5 dex +1 size +1 feat +1 enhance] +2 attacking flat-footed targets from 30’+ away
Damage: 1d6+2
Items:
Darkwood Light Crossbow [355 gp] 1 lbs
240 Crossbow Bolts [24 gp] 12 lbs
Boots of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Cloak of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Wand of Camouflage [750 gp]
Wand of Cure Light Wounds [750 gp]
Oil of Magic Weapon x6 [300 gp]
Scroll of Deeper Darkness x2 [750 gp]
Scroll of Forestfold x2 [750 gp]
Wooden Holy Symbol worn around neck [1 gp]
Remaining Gold: 320 gp
Total Weight: 15 pounds (15 pounds for no encumbrance)
Changelog:
Version 2.0:
- Changed classes to Feat Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Feat Rogue +3.
- Major changes in feats and equipment.
Whisper Gnome Feat Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Feat Rogue +2
Ability Scores
Str: 6 [8 base -2 race] (0 points)
Dex: 20 [17 base +2 race +1 lvl] (13 points)
Con: 10 [8 base +2 race] (0 points)
Int: 12 [12 base] (4 points)
Wis: 14 [14 base] (6 points)
Cha: 8 [10 base -2 race] (2 points)
HP: 20 [6 + 4.5 + 3.5*3]
AC: 15 [10 +1 size +5 dex -1 flaw]
Init: +5 [+5 dex]
BAB/Grapple: +4/+2 [+4 BAB -2 str]
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fort +4 [+4 base]
Dex +10 [+5 base +5 dex]
Will +3 [+1 base +2 wis]
Traits/Flaws: Illiterate (+1 Hide), Noncombatant, Vulnerable
Feats: Darkstalker, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), Rapid Reload*, Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)*, Track*, Able Sniper, Crossbow Sniper*
Class Abilities: Trapfinding, Favored Enemy (Undead), Evasion
Important Racial Abilities: Silence 1/day (centered on self), Ghost Sound 1/day
Skills: (54 rogue 3 fighter 7 ranger)
Decipher Script +5 [4 rogue 1 ranger +1 int]
Escape Artist +13 [8 rogue +5 dex]
Hide +30 [6 rogue 2 ranger +5 dex +4 size +4 race +1 trait +3 feat +5 competence] +4 while sniping
Listen +11 [8 rogue +2 wis +2 race]
Move Silently +25 [6 rogue 2 ranger +5 dex +4 race +3 feat +5 competence]
Sleight of Hand +9 [4 rogue +5 dex]
Spot +11 [6 rogue 2 ranger +2 wis +2 race]
Tumble +10 [4 rogue 1/2 fighter 1/2 ranger +5 dex]
Use Magic Device +7 [8 rogue -1 cha] +2 with scrolls
Literacy: 2 fighter
Attacks:
MW Darkwood Light Crossbow:
Attack: +12 [+4 BAB +5 dex +1 size +1 feat +1 enhance] +2 attacking flat-footed targets from 30’+ away
Damage: 1d6+2
Items:
Darkwood Light Crossbow [355 gp] 1 lbs
240 Crossbow Bolts [24 gp] 12 lbs
Boots of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Cloak of Elvenkind [2500 gp] 1 lbs
Wand of Camouflage [750 gp]
Wand of Cure Light Wounds [750 gp]
Oil of Magic Weapon x6 [300 gp]
Scroll of Deeper Darkness x2 [750 gp]
Scroll of Forestfold x2 [750 gp]
Wooden Holy Symbol worn around neck [1 gp]
Remaining Gold: 320 gp
Total Weight: 15 pounds (15 pounds for no encumbrance)
Changelog:
Version 2.0:
- Changed classes to Feat Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Feat Rogue +3.
- Major changes in feats and equipment.
Preparations
- UMD a scroll of Deeper Darkness (25% success rate per trial, 83.33% chance of success before a 1 is rolled). The target is the holy symbol; it can be worn inside the clothes if I don’t want the darkness effect. If I roll a 1 before I succeed, UMD the other scroll of Deeper Darkness. If both fail, try again tomorrow.
- After successfully activating the Deeper Darkness and less than 1 hour before setting out, UMD a scroll of Forestfold (25% success rate per trial, 83.33% chance of success before a 1 is rolled). Set environment to underground. The effect lasts 5 hours. If I roll a 1 before I succeed, UMD the other scroll of Forestfold. If both fail, try again tomorrow. Hopefully a success will happen within 5 days. If not, perhaps it’s the gods sending you a message and you should avoid that particular cave.
En Route to the Cave: The Manticore
- Deeper Darkness effect will be active. Stealthy Assassin will be holding Wand of Camouflage and his Light Crossbow (loaded).
- Stealthy Assassin sees the Manticore! The Manticore will probably notice the Deeper Darkness effect, but since it grants concealment, it probably won’t see or hear the Stealthy Assassin (Hide +30 vs Spot +7 autosucceeds, MS +25 vs Listen +9 succeeds 98.5% of the time). Stealthy Assassin probably gets a surprise round, or at least gets the first move as the Manticore has no idea what to do with a moving globe of darkness.
- Stealthy Assassin will activate his Wand of Camouflage and stows the wand, then moves.
- Afterwards, he starts sniping the Manticore, trying to stay at least 30’ away. The Manticore has a flat-footed AC of 15 versus the Stealthy Assassin’s attack bonus of +16, so he has a 95% chance of hitting. Each attack deals an average of 5.5 damage, and the Manticore has 57 HP, so it’ll take about 11 shots to kill it (1 crit, 1 missing, 0 recovered). Of course, the Manticore will probably run sometime before that happens. While sniping, the Stealthy Assassin has a Hide modifier of +24 vs the Manticore’s Spot modifier of +7, so the Manticore only has a 0.0075% chance of succeeding his Spot check, so he’ll probably remain unseen throughout all this.
- End result: Manticore dies or runs away, and the Stealthy Assassin uses a charge from his Wand of Camouflage and 11 bolts.
At the Cave Entrance
- Camouflage lasts 10 minutes, so here the Stealthy Assassin probably will refresh his Camouflage.
Inside the Cave: Giant Constrictor Snake
- The snake cannot possibly see or hear the Stealthy Assassin even while he’s sniping (Hide +29 vs Spot +9, MS +30 vs Listen +9). Stealthy Assassin has a 95% chance of hitting, and will kill the snake after about 12 shots (1 crit, 1 miss, 1 recovered).
- End result: Snake dies, and the Stealthy Assassin uses a 11 bolts.
Inside the Cave: Wraith
- Damn the broken incorporeal subtype! The Wraith auto-detects Stealthy Assassin, thanks to an oft-overlooked sentence in the incorporeal subtype description. The Wraith attacks and hits for 2.5 damage (fort save succeeds). It wins initiative, and attacks again but misses due to a combination of concealment and AC.
(NOTE: Crimsondeath’s Cloistered Cleric can’t use sneak past tactics vs. the Wraith) - Stealthy Assassin realizes he can’t win and runs away. He matches the Wraith’s speed, and the Wraith can’t charge or AoO due to lack of vision.
The Rug lacks doesn’t have anything in Listen or Spot, and the Dragon would have been taken down with crossbow bolts and the Wand of CLW when his breath weapon does manage to land (70% chance of save with evasion).
The only reason I knew about that auto-detect clause in the Incorporeal Subtype description is because I’ve played a ghost character before. It’s apparently some super-sense that’s not blindsense, blindsight, or anything else so Darkstalker doesn’t block it. Well, that’s pretty lame.
The manticore and snake do have scent, though, and I see no way in your build as listed to mask that. The snake is incredibly nasty if it actually grabs you, due to constrict. If it hits alot of the builds in here even once, it will likely kill them.
The manticore also has Flyby Attack, and scent lets it pinpoint your square if it comes within 5 feet. So it can Flyby Attack you with a 50% miss chance if it has a decent idea of where you are. There is a 1st level spell that masks it in the Spell Compendium, but it only lasts 1 min/lvl (1 min in a standard potion).
And does your build have Darkvision? You don't have it listed. If not, how are you seeing anything inside the cave?
Psychic Warrior is not allowed ... It think you can take "Wild Talent" to qualify to take "Psicrystal affinity". Also, I am of the opinion that Spellthief is a caster, as it can cast spells at first level (that it steals).
Nope. You need a manifester level of 1. Any just about any psi-like ability will do for that though.
I'll quote this time to prevent errors. >.<
From the SRD,
PSICRYSTAL AFFINITY [PSIONIC]
You have created a psicrystal.
Prerequisites: Manifester level 1st.
Benefit: This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal.
Nope. You need a manifester level of 1. Any just about any psi-like ability will do for that though.
I'll quote this time to prevent errors. >.<
From the SRD,
You could try to get the Hidden Power feat from XPH, I think it gave you 1 PP and the ability to manifest 1 power at ML 1.
Stealthy Assassin v2.0 versus CR5 Cave
En Route to the Cave: The Manticore
- Deeper Darkness effect will be active. Stealthy Assassin will be holding Wand of Camouflage and his Light Crossbow (loaded).
- Stealthy Assassin sees the Manticore! The Manticore will probably notice the Deeper Darkness effect, but since it grants concealment, it probably won’t see or hear the Stealthy Assassin (Hide +30 vs Spot +7 autosucceeds, MS +25 vs Listen +9 succeeds 98.5% of the time). Stealthy Assassin probably gets a surprise round, or at least gets the first move as the Manticore has no idea what to do with a moving globe of darkness.
- Stealthy Assassin will activate his Wand of Camouflage and stows the wand, then moves.
- Afterwards, he starts sniping the Manticore, trying to stay at least 30’ away. The Manticore has a flat-footed AC of 15 versus the Stealthy Assassin’s attack bonus of +16, so he has a 95% chance of hitting. Each attack deals an average of 5.5 damage, and the Manticore has 57 HP, so it’ll take about 11 shots to kill it (1 crit, 1 missing, 0 recovered). Of course, the Manticore will probably run sometime before that happens. While sniping, the Stealthy Assassin has a Hide modifier of +24 vs the Manticore’s Spot modifier of +7, so the Manticore only has a 0.0075% chance of succeeding his Spot check, so he’ll probably remain unseen throughout all this.
- End result: Manticore dies or runs away, and the Stealthy Assassin uses a charge from his Wand of Camouflage and 11 bolts.
The manticore isn't a complete moron. You might get a single surprise bolt off from inside the darkness but after that he can simply fly out of range and enter the cave later. Things will suck for you if you're fighting something else and the manticore spikes you.
Also, you are in the middle of round globe of darkness, the center is obvious from altitude. So you are going to have to rely on your hide, not his inability to find you. He KNOWS what square you're in and a 50% miss rate isn't all that bad when he has a whole tail full of spikes.
Also you aren't moving silently when you activate a wand, so he will hear you when you use your wand at the very least.
Inside the Cave: Giant Constrictor Snake
- The snake cannot possibly see or hear the Stealthy Assassin even while he’s sniping (Hide +29 vs Spot +9, MS +30 vs Listen +9). Stealthy Assassin has a 95% chance of hitting, and will kill the snake after about 12 shots (1 crit, 1 miss, 1 recovered).
- End result: Snake dies, and the Stealthy Assassin uses a 11 bolts.
With a -20 on your hide from sniping he has a 50% chance to see you per round and a corner to work with. This can't end well for you. First round you get away with sniping, second he sees you and charges. If he hits, you're dead because his grapple mod can't lose to yours. That means you need to be missed 5 times to win with that tactic.
The Rug lacks doesn’t have anything in Listen or Spot, and the Dragon would have been taken down with crossbow bolts and the Wand of CLW when his breath weapon does manage to land (70% chance of save with evasion).
Rug doesn't have listen or spot, but it will trigger when you walk over it all the same. Grappled and dead.
At best you will tie the dragon. I'm assuming you have darkstalker to block the blindsight, but still he breathes an area that is quite likely to hit you. Yes you will often evade but how many breaths can you take? Remember using a wand is not sneaky and his charge will more than knock off any hp you get from CLW.
They do automatically detect things adjacent to them while they're inside solid objects, for some reason.
Yes, that's what kills me. The wraith can just detect my square, and it will kill me before I kill it.
The manticore and snake do have scent, though, and I see no way in your build as listed to mask that.
That's what the Darkstalker feat is for. They still have to beat my Hide or Move Silently check (whichever is higher) if they want to detect me using those.
Whisper Gnomes have Darkvision.
The manticore isn't a complete moron. You might get a single surprise bolt off from inside the darkness but after that he can simply fly out of range and enter the cave later. Things will suck for you if you're fighting something else and the manticore spikes you.
He can't see me, especially not in the cave. What will probably happen is it'll get in a fight with whatever I was trying to kill, and I'll just happily let them duke it out and kill whoever wins.
Also, you are in the middle of round globe of darkness, the center is obvious from altitude. So you are going to have to rely on your hide, not his inability to find you. He KNOWS what square you're in and a 50% miss rate isn't all that bad when he has a whole tail full of spikes.
I was under the assumption you can't simply find the origin of an AoE effect like that. Otherwise, stuff like the Eversmoking Bottle would be kind of pointless. If this is a big deal, then I can make the Wooden Symbol look like a small rock or something and just put it down somewhere.
Also you aren't moving silently when you activate a wand, so he will hear you when you use your wand at the very least.
Like I said, I should either get a surprise round or win initiative. After using the wand, I'll move. Even if I lose initiative, the first thing you do when you see a moving globe of darkness probably isn't going to be "ready to shoot something when I hear a sound".
With a -20 on your hide from sniping he has a 50% chance to see you per round and a corner to work with.
Wrong, that +29 check is WITH the -20 hide penalty.
Rug doesn't have listen or spot, but it will trigger when you walk over it all the same. Grappled and dead.
Hmm. Technically, it'd still have to hit me to grapple (concealment), and I have a +13 Escape Artist check versus its +19 grapple check. Plus I win initiative. So it's entirely possible that the rug doesn't get me in a grapple after round 1, in which case it's dead.
At best you will tie the dragon. I'm assuming you have darkstalker to block the blindsight, but still he breathes an area that is quite likely to hit you. Yes you will often evade but how many breaths can you take? Remember using a wand is not sneaky and his charge will more than knock off any hp you get from CLW.
If I take a hit from the breath weapon (once every 3 shots), I can retreat and heal up. I'll also move after each use of the Wand, so it doesn't know where I am. Its breath weapon is a line, so it can't just flood the entire place and expect a hit.
I redid the full moon encounter 3... this time, no handing out two potions during the surprise round, no bard using cure light wounds, etc ...
Let me know if anyone sees anything wrong with this ... note: Bard LIVES ... after having been dropped ...
Show
It has been just over 2 hours since I was charmed. I went to the temple to get Lesser Restoration cast on me so I am not fatigued.
Julius found out about the moon temple in the woods. They are reluctantly adventuring with me (at least 10' away from me).
Surprise Round:
Bard: Sees elementals, starts singing (inspirational boost for +2/+2). Tells me to get big and for the ranger to try to use his tanglefoot bags.
Ranger: (free) draws a tanglefoot bag. Readies action to toss onto elemental.
Me: Draw potion of enlarge person.
Round 1:
Air Elementals wins initiative.
AE1: Moves towards Ranger, readied action goes off (+10 vs ac 16, 75%), hitting the air elemental (dc 15 vs +9, 80%), causing it to be entangled. Ranger takes 7 damage but is not swept up. Air Elemental continues movement, sweeping up bard.
AE2: Sweeps up ranger. Ranger takes no damage from this one.
AE3: Moves onto me, I save vs the damage (+5 vs DC16, 50%) but am swept up (50,100).
Bard: Casts (DC 17 vs +9, 60%) Glitterdust on AE1 (DC 17 vs +2, 25%, 105%) which fails its saves. It now moves at 1/4 speed.
Ranger tries a tanglefoot bag on his opponent (80%, 160) hitting, elemental (80%, 185) succeeds in his save, so he is not stuck to the floor, but moves 1/2 speed.
I drink my potion of enlarge person (dc 16 vs +5, 50%), giving the air elemental a hernia.
End of round 1: Bard: 18 and Trapped, Ranger: 23 and Trapped, Me: Free, AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Entangled, AE3: Free.
Round 2:
AE1: Moves upwards its full double movement (50') and drops the bard, who tries his tumble (dc 15 vs +10, 75%, 165) failing, but his jump check (dc 15 vs +10, 75%, 240) succeed. He takes 14 damage (4d6).
AE2: Moves upwards its full movement (100') and drops the ranger, who tries his tumble (dc 15 vs +10, 75%) success, and jumps (75, 150) success. He takes 28 damage (-5), falling unconscious.
AE3: Cannot deal damage to me in whirlwind form, so dismisses it (standard).
Bard: Moves 30' closer to me (120' from me) drawing a scroll of glitterdust on the move, and casts glitterdust on my air elemental (45%, 230) which fails it's save.
Ranger: Bleeds (10%).
Me: I full power attack, rabid wolf strike +burning blade this thing (+4+6-1+4+2-4+2 vs ac 13, 95%) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2d6+2+1d6+3+8-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+7+2+3.5+3+8-5) 39 damage. I then move 10'.
End of round 2: Bard: 4, Ranger -6, Me: Full. AE1: Blind+Entangled, AE2: Entangled, AE3: 21
Round 3
AE1: Blind ... waits for blindness to fall off. There is 0 chance of learning where the bard is unless the other air elementals assist.
AE2: Descends, picking up the ranger, which fails the save vs battering, and dies. AE2 Dissipates.
AE3: Blind ... readies an action to attack the square directly behind where it gets hit from (this should be me).
Bard ... moves towards me 30' and draws scroll of cure light wounds (now 80' away).
Me: I charge and full power attack the air elemental, (+4+6-1+2+2+2-4 vs ac 13, 95%, 190), dealing (2d6+9+1+1d6+8+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+8+2-5) 25.5, killing it. It's readied action does not go off.
End of round 3: Bard 4, Ranger: Dead, Me: Full. AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Gone: AE3: dead.
Round 4:
AE1: Patiently waiting for blindness to wear off. Reverts to normal air elemental.
Bard: Single moves towards me, (60' away) reads her scroll (5.5).
Me: Single moves towards her (30' away), regains maneuvers.
End of round 4: Bard 9.5, Ranger: dead, me: full, AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 5:
AE1: No longer entangled. It is frothing at the mouth, waiting to see it's target (holding).
Bard: Heals 1 hp. Sings again as the old one fell off.
Me: I move adjacent to Bard (between elemental and him), ready an action to full power attack the air elemental if it enters my threatened range.
End of round 5: Bard 10.5, Ranger: dead, Me: Full, AE1: Blind, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 6:
AE1: It is just waiting ...
Bard: Heals 1 hp. Draws his last scroll of glitter dust, readies action to cast on air elemental when it enters my threatened area.
AE1: No longer blind, charges the bard, (here is where it gets complicated).
1)
It enters my threatened area, Bard's readied action goes off (+2 vs dc 13, 45%, 275) but does nothing.
My readied action goes off (+4+6-1+2-4 vs 18, 50%, 240), missing.
It continues moving, provoking (50%, 290) which hits for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2+8-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+2+8-5) 25.5 damage.
It completes it's charge, hitting the bard (+14 vs ac 14, 95%) for 9 damage.
End of round 6: Bard 2.5, Ranger: dead, Me: Full, AE1: 34.5, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 7:
Bard heals 1 hp and defensively attempts to casts tasha's laughter on the elemental (dc 16 vs +9, 65%, 125%) which fails.
I full power attack, rabid wolf strike, burning blade the air elemental (+4+6-1+2-4+4 vs ac 18, 70, 360), hitting for (2d6+1d6+1d6+3+9+1+2+2d6+8-5= 7+3.5+3.5+3+9+1+2+7+8-5) 39 damage, killing it.
End of round 7: Bard: 3.5, Ranger: Dead, Me: Full, AE1: Dead: AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead
I gather up the gear off my fallen companion (heh heh, get it? fallen?).
Ranger: amulet con+2, chain shirt+1, quarterstaff and oil of shillelagh 2 alch fire, 6 oil flasks. 8 acid flasks 12 javelins, 2 saps
I replace my chain shirt with the chain shirt +1, wear the amulet of con+2.
Bard upgrades his armor from studded leather to chain shirt. Bard picks up rangers weapons. I plan on the bard reading the scroll of alter self (trog) when we are near the big boss.
Bard currently has 2 bard songs left and 2 cantrips.
Bard heals up to 12.5, I spend a charge from my belt of healing to raise him to 19.5 hps.
Julius found out about the moon temple in the woods. They are reluctantly adventuring with me (at least 10' away from me).
Surprise Round:
Bard: Sees elementals, starts singing (inspirational boost for +2/+2). Tells me to get big and for the ranger to try to use his tanglefoot bags.
Ranger: (free) draws a tanglefoot bag. Readies action to toss onto elemental.
Me: Draw potion of enlarge person.
Round 1:
Air Elementals wins initiative.
AE1: Moves towards Ranger, readied action goes off (+10 vs ac 16, 75%), hitting the air elemental (dc 15 vs +9, 80%), causing it to be entangled. Ranger takes 7 damage but is not swept up. Air Elemental continues movement, sweeping up bard.
AE2: Sweeps up ranger. Ranger takes no damage from this one.
AE3: Moves onto me, I save vs the damage (+5 vs DC16, 50%) but am swept up (50,100).
Bard: Casts (DC 17 vs +9, 60%) Glitterdust on AE1 (DC 17 vs +2, 25%, 105%) which fails its saves. It now moves at 1/4 speed.
Ranger tries a tanglefoot bag on his opponent (80%, 160) hitting, elemental (80%, 185) succeeds in his save, so he is not stuck to the floor, but moves 1/2 speed.
I drink my potion of enlarge person (dc 16 vs +5, 50%), giving the air elemental a hernia.
End of round 1: Bard: 18 and Trapped, Ranger: 23 and Trapped, Me: Free, AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Entangled, AE3: Free.
Round 2:
AE1: Moves upwards its full double movement (50') and drops the bard, who tries his tumble (dc 15 vs +10, 75%, 165) failing, but his jump check (dc 15 vs +10, 75%, 240) succeed. He takes 14 damage (4d6).
AE2: Moves upwards its full movement (100') and drops the ranger, who tries his tumble (dc 15 vs +10, 75%) success, and jumps (75, 150) success. He takes 28 damage (-5), falling unconscious.
AE3: Cannot deal damage to me in whirlwind form, so dismisses it (standard).
Bard: Moves 30' closer to me (120' from me) drawing a scroll of glitterdust on the move, and casts glitterdust on my air elemental (45%, 230) which fails it's save.
Ranger: Bleeds (10%).
Me: I full power attack, rabid wolf strike +burning blade this thing (+4+6-1+4+2-4+2 vs ac 13, 95%) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2d6+2+1d6+3+8-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+7+2+3.5+3+8-5) 39 damage. I then move 10'.
End of round 2: Bard: 4, Ranger -6, Me: Full. AE1: Blind+Entangled, AE2: Entangled, AE3: 21
Round 3
AE1: Blind ... waits for blindness to fall off. There is 0 chance of learning where the bard is unless the other air elementals assist.
AE2: Descends, picking up the ranger, which fails the save vs battering, and dies. AE2 Dissipates.
AE3: Blind ... readies an action to attack the square directly behind where it gets hit from (this should be me).
Bard ... moves towards me 30' and draws scroll of cure light wounds (now 80' away).
Me: I charge and full power attack the air elemental, (+4+6-1+2+2+2-4 vs ac 13, 95%, 190), dealing (2d6+9+1+1d6+8+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+8+2-5) 25.5, killing it. It's readied action does not go off.
End of round 3: Bard 4, Ranger: Dead, Me: Full. AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Gone: AE3: dead.
Round 4:
AE1: Patiently waiting for blindness to wear off. Reverts to normal air elemental.
Bard: Single moves towards me, (60' away) reads her scroll (5.5).
Me: Single moves towards her (30' away), regains maneuvers.
End of round 4: Bard 9.5, Ranger: dead, me: full, AE1: Blind+entangled, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 5:
AE1: No longer entangled. It is frothing at the mouth, waiting to see it's target (holding).
Bard: Heals 1 hp. Sings again as the old one fell off.
Me: I move adjacent to Bard (between elemental and him), ready an action to full power attack the air elemental if it enters my threatened range.
End of round 5: Bard 10.5, Ranger: dead, Me: Full, AE1: Blind, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 6:
AE1: It is just waiting ...
Bard: Heals 1 hp. Draws his last scroll of glitter dust, readies action to cast on air elemental when it enters my threatened area.
AE1: No longer blind, charges the bard, (here is where it gets complicated).
1)
It enters my threatened area, Bard's readied action goes off (+2 vs dc 13, 45%, 275) but does nothing.
My readied action goes off (+4+6-1+2-4 vs 18, 50%, 240), missing.
It continues moving, provoking (50%, 290) which hits for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2+8-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+2+8-5) 25.5 damage.
It completes it's charge, hitting the bard (+14 vs ac 14, 95%) for 9 damage.
End of round 6: Bard 2.5, Ranger: dead, Me: Full, AE1: 34.5, AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead.
Round 7:
Bard heals 1 hp and defensively attempts to casts tasha's laughter on the elemental (dc 16 vs +9, 65%, 125%) which fails.
I full power attack, rabid wolf strike, burning blade the air elemental (+4+6-1+2-4+4 vs ac 18, 70, 360), hitting for (2d6+1d6+1d6+3+9+1+2+2d6+8-5= 7+3.5+3.5+3+9+1+2+7+8-5) 39 damage, killing it.
End of round 7: Bard: 3.5, Ranger: Dead, Me: Full, AE1: Dead: AE2: Gone, AE3: Dead
I gather up the gear off my fallen companion (heh heh, get it? fallen?).
Ranger: amulet con+2, chain shirt+1, quarterstaff and oil of shillelagh 2 alch fire, 6 oil flasks. 8 acid flasks 12 javelins, 2 saps
I replace my chain shirt with the chain shirt +1, wear the amulet of con+2.
Bard upgrades his armor from studded leather to chain shirt. Bard picks up rangers weapons. I plan on the bard reading the scroll of alter self (trog) when we are near the big boss.
Bard currently has 2 bard songs left and 2 cantrips.
Bard heals up to 12.5, I spend a charge from my belt of healing to raise him to 19.5 hps.
Hmm. Technically, it'd still have to hit me to grapple (concealment), and I have a +13 Escape Artist check versus its +19 grapple check. Plus I win initiative. So it's entirely possible that the rug doesn't get me in a grapple after round 1, in which case it's dead.
Round 1 is surprise round ... when it attacks you and tries to grapple ...
Incorporeals don't auto-detect things, but it is a common house-rule. Dread Wraiths have a Life Sense, and there is a feat in Libris Mortis that lets other undead pick that up, but it isn't "standard". They do automatically detect things adjacent to them while they're inside solid objects, for some reason.
Yeah. In 3.0 I think it might have been a 5' lifesense but that seems to have gone away in 3.5 if it ever existed. Might have been a houserule.
What they all do tend to have is blindfighting. So if they locate you by hearing they're pretty likely to hit.
However here's why it doesn't work in this scenario.
" (+10 vs ac 16, 75%)" - you forgot the 50% miss chance for the dust kicked up. that drops it to 37% and elemental 1 is not entangled. It will be blinded, and elemental 2 will get its tanglefoot bag.
Round 2, the elementals both go up 50' and both drop their victims. bard takes 31 damage after his tumble check and dies. AE1 vanishes.
Round 3, AE2 zooms down and finishes off the ranger. AE2 vanishes.
Do the rest of the fight assuming the bard isn't helping you with glitterdust.
The elemental needs a std action to change out of whirlwind. It would move away on R2 to avoid AOO using dust, then rise out of your reach, then use std action to dismiss. Round 3 you're free to do something else, but you aren't going to be able to attack the elemental without ranged weapons or a way to fly 50' or so up in the air. Round 4 it would take up a position over your head per the tactics and try to bludgeon you down. This is where you probably kill it quickly, since it doesn't have a reach advantage and your offense is better.
Basically, you don't get a round to full attack the elemental while it is shifting forms because it has no reason to just sit there next to you. When it does come, it won't be blind. But you will probably kill it anyway without much trouble. Out of curiousity though, why does rabid wolf strike/flaming whatever work against a target AC of 13? Air elementals have AC and touch AC higher than that, and it isn't charging, entangled or blind in that scenario.
While it's kind of interesting to see Meyer's party support each other, that's really not the point of the exercise. We want to see how an overpowered character solos an air elemental.
Looting the bodies of your companions IS one of the benefits of keeping them friendly in earlier encounters.
Hmm. Technically, it'd still have to hit me to grapple (concealment), and I have a +13 Escape Artist check versus its +19 grapple check. Plus I win initiative. So it's entirely possible that the rug doesn't get me in a grapple after round 1, in which case it's dead.
If I take a hit from the breath weapon (once every 3 shots), I can retreat and heal up. I'll also move after each use of the Wand, so it doesn't know where I am. Its breath weapon is a line, so it can't just flood the entire place and expect a hit.
You start the rug encounter on the rug, so bare minimum it gets its surprise round then an AOO as you try to leave the rug. Most people run with the 50% mark for success so concealment fails the first time.
The breath is a line, but the fight environment is a hall (line) plus a 10x10 room with the dragon in it if I remember correctly. The line is pretty much ideal for nailing you. If you are in the hall sniping it can breathe, then move into its room and block your line of sight until you enter the room, and if youre inside the room he can cover 50% of the room in acid.
Also if you are in the room he can throw at least one attack at every square he isn't in every round. That means he is likely to get a lot of "lucky" hits, 50% miss or not.
Round 1 is surprise round ... when it attacks you and tries to grapple ...
And it either misses due to full concealment, or Stealthy Assassin gets out of the grapple with Escape Artist when he wins initiative and moves away. There's still a pretty large chance that he'd lose, but it's below 50%.
Yeah. In 3.0 I think it might have been a 5' lifesense but that seems to have gone away in 3.5 if it ever existed. Might have been a houserule.
What they all do tend to have is blindfighting. So if they locate you by hearing they're pretty likely to hit.
I'd love that they'd have lifesense or whatnot, because that works like blindsense and will be blocked by Darkstalker. However, they have this unnamed sense.
Incorporeal Subtype
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
So the Wraith would probably wait in the walls of a 5' choke point area, and when Stealthy Assassin walks over it it attacks. Even though he has full concealment, a combination of Blind-Fight and the incorporeal template means it kills him far faster than he can kill it. If he run, it can sense which way he went and just follow underground, attacking once it senses him.
Now, if we want to rule that this works like blindsense, then it would be great because Darkstalker would block it and the Wraith would never know Stealthy Assassin was there. I can buy an interpretation that it's even just a normal sense like Spot and Listen. But by a strict reading of RAW, it senses him and Stealthy Assassin can't win.
Yeah. In 3.0 I think it might have been a 5' lifesense but that seems to have gone away in 3.5 if it ever existed. Might have been a houserule.
What they all do tend to have is blindfighting. So if they locate you by hearing they're pretty likely to hit.
He's saying that it can just stay inside the wall/floor/whatever and automatically detect his square due to the description of the incorporeal subtype:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object.
He'll have total concealment, but the wraith has Blind Fight as you said, so it still only misses 25% of the time. The only way he can even hit it back is with a readied action.
I had the wraith come out of the wall/ceiling/whatever, but I guess it would have been a bit more tactical on its part not to. It wouldn't have mattered for the fights with my entrants. They only attack once per round anyway, so having to use readied actions wouldn't hurt them, but for some that make multiple attacks it might.
Edit: Gah. Zelck is a ninja. :P
You start the rug encounter on the rug, so bare minimum it gets its surprise round then an AOO as you try to leave the rug. Most people run with the 50% mark for success so concealment fails the first time.
There's no AoO because I have full concealment.
The breath is a line, but the fight environment is a hall (line) plus a 10x10 room with the dragon in it if I remember correctly. The line is pretty much ideal for nailing you. If you are in the hall sniping it can breathe, then move into its room and block your line of sight until you enter the room, and if youre inside the room he can cover 50% of the room in acid.
I attack from the hall. It takes him 7 rounds to finally hit me with the breath weapon, assuming it immediately reacts perfectly (no "WTF just hit me? Why can't I sense it?? It doesn't even show up on Blindsense!! WTF is going on here?!?" round, or "I've been breathing down the hall for ages now, and there's no screams or anything!!! What should I do?!?!"). I'd run back to the rug room to heal up when it does. If it follows me into the rug room, then it'll probably miss a lot of breath attacks.
ETA:
Edit: Gah. Zelck is a ninja. :P
A stealthy assassin ninja ;) :D
Where are the concentration checks for the bard using scrolls in a whirlwind?
Bard: Casts (DC 17 vs +9, 60%) Glitterdust on AE1 (DC 17 vs +2, 25%, 105%) which fails its saves. It now moves at 1/4 speed.
Right there. The next time I cast a spell near an elemental 1) It is not a whirlwind, 2) I am 20 or so feet away from it.
You need to also check distances even if it did work, since I think the elementals should be more than 130' away from each other, but maybe not with the entangle effects. They scatter in three directions, like 3 points of a triangle.
Bard elemental goes 50' one way, mine goes 100' another way. If they separated like a T then, they would be (at max) 150 away. If they are triangular (dorito), then they are closer than 150' away.
I think Meyers fight kinds shows why the elementals want to separate party members and why parties usually win in real play.
However here's why it doesn't work in this scenario.
" (+10 vs ac 16, 75%)" - you forgot the 50% miss chance for the dust kicked up. that drops it to 37% and elemental 1 is not entangled. It will be blinded, and elemental 2 will get its tanglefoot bag.
First bag ... 50% hit chance (success) ... second bag (50%, 100%) misses.
Round 2, the elementals both go up 50' and both drop their victims. bard takes 31 damage. Both bard and ranger are bleeding out.
Bard's elemental (entangled/blind) goes up 50', rangers goes up 100'.
Round 3, AE2 tells AE1 where the bard landed. (elementals speak auran). Even if he's off by a little it doesn't matter, he's still got 50' of movement to cast about for the bard. Both zoom down and finish off their victims with vortex damage, then vanish.
Yes, if the elementals gang up on NPCs ... then something like this happens. However, round 3, a double move is 50', which brings the elemental down to ground level (30' off of where the bard is ...). It won't be until the next round (minimum) that AE1 can interact with the bard.
Do the rest of the fight assuming the bard isn't helping you with glitterdust.
While it's kind of interesting to see Meyer's party support each other, that's really not the point of the exercise. We want to see how an overpowered character solos an air elemental.
Not quite following you on this one ... am I not allowed to have the NPCs interact during the fight? If not, then why have them be present at all? The +2/+2 is not worth the headache (don't get me wrong, I like bonuses) ... but when my party members are around, I like to try to keep them alive (that is my role as BDF after all).
[edit] -- sorry to be hassling you like this ... I like the premise ... but you can see my confusion/concern. Also, I have UMD ... and are having the NPC use up treasure (which I might be able to use) to live ...
First bag ... 50% hit chance (success) ... second bag (50%, 100%) misses.
I thought you did miss chances as an aggregate of the base percentage. Ie you multiply 75%*50%. You're using a separate dice pool?
Even in your approach the bard is toast. AE1 can either just hold the bard one more round (knowing that a mere 50' drop is unlikely to get the job done) or chase him down in later rounds taking direction from AE3. Probably he'd just hold the bard another round. He has no reason to just sit idle and a lot of reasons not to (if he kills the bard with the first drop, he doesn't risk getting killed by other party members while blind and entangled...but right now he doesn't seem threatened by anything, so why not go higher?)
[edit] -- sorry to be hassling you like this ... I like the premise ... but you can see my confusion/concern. Also, I have UMD ... and are having the NPC use up treasure (which I might be able to use) to live ...
Just let them die, then drag them back to town and pay for them to be raised... with their money of course. :D Or maybe their buddy the were-bear will pay for it, out of gratitude for not killing him, and keeping him from murdering commoners.
Not quite following you on this one ... am I not allowed to have the NPCs interact during the fight? If not, then why have them be present at all?
Well...I tried to rig a fight that would force a solo battle, like the other challenges. I didn't actually expect anyone to expect that level 4 nonoptomized NPC's could survive the elemental without direct assistance from the PC(and when I played it out...they couldn't).
The way I do dice pools for miss chance, both the NPC's are out of the fight in round 2. The way you do, the ranger gets dropped from 200' and dies instantly and bard dies in round 3 when the elemental gets to 100' up and decides that's high enough. (the elemental might be paranoid enough, being blind and entangled, to take two more rounds to get to 200' to make it a sure thing. In any event I don't see how your char could interfere even if it took extra time)
Either way, your character is too busy on rounds 2-3 to rescue them.
The elemental needs a std action to change out of whirlwind. It would move away on R2 to avoid AOO using dust, then rise out of your reach, then use std action to dismiss. Round 3 you're free to do something else, but you aren't going to be able to attack the elemental without ranged weapons or a way to fly 50' or so up in the air. Round 4 it would take up a position over your head per the tactics and try to bludgeon you down. This is where you probably kill it quickly, since it doesn't have a reach advantage and your offense is better.
Deleted -- incorrect.
Per what I posted, the one I am fighting is blind (ac 13 (flatfooted)).
I thought you did miss chances as an aggregate of the base percentage. Ie you multiply 75%*50%. You're using a separate dice pool?
Nope -- separate dice pools. The aggregate was when I do weighted averages, which people didn't like me doing.
Even in your approach the bard is toast. AE1 can either just hold the bard one more round (knowing that a mere 50' drop is unlikely to get the job done) or chase him down in later rounds taking direction from AE3. Probably he'd just hold the bard another round. He has no reason to just sit idle and a lot of reasons not to (if he kills the bard with the first drop, he doesn't risk getting killed by other party members while blind and entangled...but right now he doesn't seem threatened by anything, so why not go higher?)
The reason he didn't go higher was this:
They're not mindless automatons. If 185' is all they can manage that's what they'll do. On round 1 they stay on the ground to scatter the party on the X-Y axis. On round 2, they try to get their target as high on the Z axis as they can and drop them.
I can change their posted tactics ... which kills the bard.
Ok fair enough. The whirlwind ability explicitly doesn't take AOO as it enters your square, but leaving the square you get an AOO with it having 20% concealment.
What you don't get is a full attack. Or a blind enemy
What you don't get is a full attack. Or a blind enemy
Deleted -- incorrect. I cannot get an AoO on its movement, missed that part of the description when I was reading it. So, it needs to run away until it is no longer blinded.
I never take a full attack, as I no longer have that ability (no rage, no bracers of quickstrike).
I get the blind enemy if the bard casts glitterdust on it, and it fails the saves, like what was posted.
(Please quote my tactics, and show me my errors, so that I can redo it from that point on).
The reason he didn't go higher was this:
They're not mindless automatons. If 185' is all they can manage that's what they'll do. On round 1 they stay on the ground to scatter the party on the X-Y axis. On round 2, they try to get their target as high on the Z axis as they can and drop them.[/quote]
I can change their posted tactics ... which kills the bard.
Ok....I'm going to say it again. They're not mindless automatons.
You have to play them just like you'd play your PC with their goal in mind. We don't have a GM to take their role so we have to play these monsters as effectively as we can, within the limitations of their goals and knowledge.
If you change the situation so their plan doesn't work, they adapt the plan to the new circumstances.
An air elemental knows that lots of creatures survive 50' drops, but not so many survive 100' drop (and hardly any survive 200' drops). Blind and entangled, with no notion of when those effects will end (he lacks spellcraft or any reason to know about tanglefoot bags) he'll only get one shot. Another consideration is that his whirlwind is about to expire in one more round and he'd want to get full use of it.
Round 1,
AE1 gets entangled and blinded, and gets the bard
AE2 is neither entangled nor blinded and gets the ranger (ranger only has two TF bags, so he can not try to TF bag his own with a full attack)
AE3 is neither entangled nor blinded and gets the PC.
Separating at 120 degrees, PC and Ranger are ~175' apart (see the
30/60/90triangle formulas for proof of this) but the bard is closer,
about 135' from ranger/PC by the best geometry I can estimate on a napkin.
PC drinks potion of enlarge and is happy
Round 2
AE1 lifts bard 50' in the air (145' from PC). Bard attempts clw scroll.
AE2 lifts ranger 200' and drops him. ranger dies, AE2 goes away.
AE3 exits PC's square in order to gain altitude and turn off whirlwind. He ends even further from bard than PC
PC does not get AOO "The elemental's movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity"
PC gets a turn to do something.
Round 3
AE1 lifts bard 100' in the air (170' from PC). Bard loses 9hp and is dropped (whirlwind wears off). Bard dies, AE1 vanishes.
If Bard is somehow saved, AE1 will know because he's still on this plane. He'll ask AE3 where the bard is, and chase him in rounds 4. In round 5, the TF bag and blindness are gone. He'll try to avoid the PC when going after bard, probably making use of flyby attacks if he can do it without provoking AOO.
If Meyers agrees that this looks right, I'll replace the Air Elemental/NPC interaction paragraph with this round by round stuff for AE1 and AE2 so people can try to save NPC's if they want. If AE3 is ever within 130' of the bard, the bard will try to make the concentration check for glitterdust scroll on AE3.
I'll also try to clarify the lift and drop stuff again. They'd either lift them to the limits of whirlwind (AE1 blinded and entangled) or until they're 160'+up (an elemental that had to chase down a PC that got out and moved a bit)
(lots of edits...forgot about whirlwind wearing off).
In EL7, tanglefoot bags don't work, so both elementals kill their victims on round 2.
Surprise round: Ranger tanglefoot bags the bard (choosing to fail the save)
Round 1: ranger tangelfoot bags himself ... (choosing to fail the save).
Note: this requires the ranger to not have used any versus the PC in encounter 2.
However, I cannot see how the bard or ranger can beat their air elemental -- and at 7 points of damage a round, they die pretty quickly.
Grin:
Naw, if the bard goes any higher than 50', he dies ... and I cannot save the ranger ... so I am not even gonna try ... instead, I will take the +2/+2 and beat my elemental.
Encounter 3: Air Elementals.
Show
It has been just over 2 hours since I was charmed. I went to the temple to get Lesser Restoration cast on me so I am not fatigued. Julius found out about the moon temple in the woods. They are reluctantly adventuring with me (at least 10' away from me).
Surprise Round:
Bard: Sees elementals, starts singing (inspirational boost for +2/+2). Tells me to get big and for the ranger to try to use his tanglefoot bags.
Ranger: (free) draws a tanglefoot bag. Readies action to toss onto elemental.
Me: Draw potion of enlarge person.
Round 1:
Air Elementals wins initiative.
NPCs suffer fatal heart attack and die.
Air Elemental sweeps me up (50%, save vs damage, 100%, fail vs sweep).
I drink my potion (dc 16 vs +5, 50%) of enlarge.
Round 1: Me: Full, Air Elemental 60.
Round 2:
Move away, turn into air elemental 50' off the ground.
Me: Ready an action to rabid wolf strike it if it enters me threatened area.
End of round 2: Me: Full, Air Elemental 60.
Round 3:
Air elemental fly-by attacks me:
My readied action goes off:
I rabid wolf strike it (+4+6-1+1+4+2 vs ac 20, 85%) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2d6+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+7+2-5) 24.5 damage.
It attacks me (slam) for 9 damage, triggering fire riposte (+4+6-1+2 vs ac 16, 80%, 165) for (4d6+1d6+2 = 14+3.5+2) 19.5 damage.
It then continues its flyby attack, provoking (+4+6+1-1+2 vs ac 20, 85%, 250) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+2-5) 17.5, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 24, It: -1.5
Round 4:
I use one charge from my belt to get back to full.
I gather up the gear off my fallen companions.
Ranger: amulet con+2, chain shirt+1, quarterstaff and oil of shillelagh
2 alch fire, 6 oil flasks. 8 acid flasks 12 javelins, 2 saps
I replace my chain shirt with the chain shirt +1, wear the amulet of con+2.
I plan on reading the scroll of alter self (trog) when I am near the big boss.
It has been just over 2 hours since I was charmed. I went to the temple to get Lesser Restoration cast on me so I am not fatigued. Julius found out about the moon temple in the woods. They are reluctantly adventuring with me (at least 10' away from me).
Surprise Round:
Bard: Sees elementals, starts singing (inspirational boost for +2/+2). Tells me to get big and for the ranger to try to use his tanglefoot bags.
Ranger: (free) draws a tanglefoot bag. Readies action to toss onto elemental.
Me: Draw potion of enlarge person.
Round 1:
Air Elementals wins initiative.
NPCs suffer fatal heart attack and die.
Air Elemental sweeps me up (50%, save vs damage, 100%, fail vs sweep).
I drink my potion (dc 16 vs +5, 50%) of enlarge.
Round 1: Me: Full, Air Elemental 60.
Round 2:
Move away, turn into air elemental 50' off the ground.
Me: Ready an action to rabid wolf strike it if it enters me threatened area.
End of round 2: Me: Full, Air Elemental 60.
Round 3:
Air elemental fly-by attacks me:
My readied action goes off:
I rabid wolf strike it (+4+6-1+1+4+2 vs ac 20, 85%) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2d6+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+7+2-5) 24.5 damage.
It attacks me (slam) for 9 damage, triggering fire riposte (+4+6-1+2 vs ac 16, 80%, 165) for (4d6+1d6+2 = 14+3.5+2) 19.5 damage.
It then continues its flyby attack, provoking (+4+6+1-1+2 vs ac 20, 85%, 250) for (2d6+9+1+1d6+2-5 = 7+9+1+3.5+2-5) 17.5, killing it.
End of round 3: Me: 24, It: -1.5
Round 4:
I use one charge from my belt to get back to full.
I gather up the gear off my fallen companions.
Ranger: amulet con+2, chain shirt+1, quarterstaff and oil of shillelagh
2 alch fire, 6 oil flasks. 8 acid flasks 12 javelins, 2 saps
I replace my chain shirt with the chain shirt +1, wear the amulet of con+2.
I plan on reading the scroll of alter self (trog) when I am near the big boss.
If I can grapple an elemental and Pouncy grapples another then only 1 elemental is left to try and kill one of the NPC's. Even grappling them for a round screws them up to the point they won't kill anyone I think.
If I find myself with extra time and books I'll try to work out the action sequence.
This mini-adventure was rough.
I used up all three of my enlarge person potions, my potion of flight, my rage, my bracers of quick strike, and a charge from my healing belt. I am looking forward to leveling to buy more stuff.
The extra rage feat is looking really really good to me right now, unfortunately, I cannot take it easily because of my future progression.
init 8 v +1 85/50
init +8 v +5 160/150 win
init +8 v +11 190/250 win
+8 v +1 275/250 win
+8 v +4 345/450 lose
That means vs the dryads you're beat on init, they both use deep slumber and then CDG you. If the dryads don't start in a position where you can threaten them both, same deal. Even if you win there is the same problem you have run into several times in the past, roll a single point under average on any roll in that attack sequence and you lose.
Vs the mouther why do you use your fly potion again if you're fighting elves? When I think elves I think archery and your fly potion is if anything a disadvantage in that situation. Also it doesn't notice you while you run around confused?
My quick count shows your init rolls like this.
init 8 v +1 85/50
init +8 v +5 160/150 win
init +8 v +11 190/250 win
+8 v +1 275/250 win
+8 v +4 345/450 lose
You think that I should win init vs the air elementals? I don't see how.
That means vs the dryads you're beat on init, they both use deep slumber and then CDG you. If the dryads don't start in a position where you can threaten them both, same deal. Even if you win there is the same problem you have run into several times in the past, roll a single point under average on any roll in that attack sequence and you lose.
True ... if the dryads beat me in init - (I have +4 more than them) -- and if they go for deep slumber, which is completely NOT what the tactics posted were (not even intent) ... and since this is round 1 that they need to do this, it is not even that they get to learn based on my character's behavior...
I just posted the scenario if I lose init.
Both will try to make friends with the PC using charm abilities first, or suggestion.
Failing charm, they will use the "kiss me" suggestion, in the dryad case if you succumb it is as if you failed a save versus entangle and you lose a point of wisdom each round you allow the kiss (the tree grabs you and tries to meld you in, as what happened with the high priest
And also true that if I roll badly then I let one live (I can roll under average, I drop them to -1.5, which means I can roll under average by 1 and they die, under average by 2 and they are at .5 hps).
And definitely true that I am not overwhelmingly beating each and every encounter ... but ... for the most part ... I survive (by the rules we are playing under).
Vs the mouther why do you use your fly potion again if you're fighting elves? When I think elves I think archery and your fly potion is if anything a disadvantage in that situation. Also it doesn't notice you while you run around confused?
When I think multiple opponents with my low ac -- I think I am getting killed.
With fly up, I have a movement rate of 60, I can kill multiple elves (groundbound) without them responding, and depending on how they are positioned, even if they are archers, my AoOs kill them (depending on hps).
Worst case, I hang out in melee with 1+ of them for bonuses to AC (depending on feat selection)
It does not notice me running around confused per the layout posted (unless I misunderstood it) as it cannot see me.
Eventually the PC hears the sounds of a large number of elves, but even with very high listen checks they really seem to make no sense. It's coming from a large thicket, 60' radius. You can buff outside and nothing happens. The brush near the thicket is double move where it is passable at all. The second 10' of movement, one (or two) DC13 will saves must be made to avoid confusion (see below)
Once you clear the underbrush, you can see and hear clearly.
It clearly says that until we pass through the brush we cannot see clearly. I do not pass through the brush until after I recover from confusion. Now, it doesn't say that the Gibbering Mouther cannot see me ... so ... who knows. When Solberg reads this ... he might make a clarification -- like was done about multiple other things I attempted.
I'll probably get around to it. It takes a damn long time to run something like that though and then someone spots a +1 you were off by and you have to do the whole thing again.
Right
His animal companion is likely to do all the beating of the werebear without help. The fleshraker is only medium size unbuffed and will charge in on round one and lay down some serious dex debuffing poison action. The bear doesn't have the dex to sustain 11.5 dex drain a round for long.
Poison only works if you damage the bear ... (which I think someone mentioned earlier) .
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
I would say at least CR6. Putting environmental limitations like that on a character really can jack up the challenge rating. Of course I find it odd but amusing that they require the Fleshraker to be muzzled while walking the streets... but don't care about his venom dripping claws and tail. Hey, its just a medium animal, go ahead buddy take him on inside just make sure he doesn't bite anyone.
Heh . .. maybe townsfolks are used to purple dinosaurs walking around singing songs ...
I do, considering you get mauled by a bunch of encounters that other people skate through because they have 20 points of AC on you. ;)
If you were to remake my character ... how would you?
It currently:
Uses almost no expendibles
Has an answer for most things (rarely the most optimal)
Hits hard (1 round took out an air elemental)
Likes mobility (tumble/etc)
Now ... looking back on the character, the flaws I took were sub-optimal (weak-eyed and shaky are far better) as they actually inconvenience him constantly -- but other than that, I am really happy with how he turned out (and is performing).
You could try to get the Hidden Power feat from XPH, I think it gave you 1 PP and the ability to manifest 1 power at ML 1.
I guess you could try to interpret it that way, but it says that you are considered to be a 1st level manifester when manifesting the power, not that you have a manifester level of one. You could get one of the host feats.
Also the benefit of the psicrystal are based off you psionic class levels, so unless you can boost your effective levels the build will not be accepted on this thread.
Now ... looking back on the character, the flaws I took were sub-optimal (weak-eyed and shaky are far better) as they actually inconvenience him constantly -- but other than that, I am really happy with how he turned out (and is performing).
"Shaky" and "Weak-Eyed" are better flaws only because of the fairly ludicrous nature of most of these challenges. It seems like 80% of them involve fighting some beefy monster in an enclosed space.
The Tomb of Closets
Encounter 1: You wake up and find that, while you were sleeping, you were engulfed by an advanced gelatinous cube. It completely fills the 15' square room you're in.
Encounter 2: Escaping from the gelatinous cube, you enter another 15' square room with a darktentacles. It surprises you.
Encounter 3: You defeat the darktentacles and find yourself in another 15' square room with a half-dragon troll monk.
Encounter 4: You finally make it to the final closet -- a 5' square room. The walls are infested with allips.
Of course, I'm still reading this thread so there must be some entertainment value in it...:P
"Shaky" and "Weak-Eyed" are better flaws only because of the fairly ludicrous nature of most of these challenges. It seems like 80% of them involve fighting some beefy monster in an enclosed space.
So post a better set of challenges
Of course, I'm still reading this thread so there must be some entertainment value in it...:P
Is the The Tomb of Closets a legitimate set of encounters? If so, please post the CR and the stats ...
Potions can be used as a swift action if you put them in capsule retainers. You can find these items in complete adventurer, page 120.
Question: I am getting ready to make some changes to "Me Too" and I saw this ... I read page 120 of complete adventurer, and I cannot find the part where it says you can put potions in capsule retainers (which say that can hold an alchemical capsule).
If you can point that out to me ... I would appreciate it.
Also, what is an armor chamber for potions (cost, etc) ... as this is looking nice.
How about this?
Surprise round: Ranger tanglefoot bags the bard (choosing to fail the save)
Round 1: ranger tangelfoot bags himself ... (choosing to fail the save).
Ok that's pretty funny. If I'm ever in that situation again I might even use it myself just to see the look on the GM's face. That would even help with the huge elementals. I've never seen anyone try that though, so we'll assume they're not that clever. I'll go with readied tanglefoot+glitterdust for the NPC's for other folks if they want to try to save the NPCs.
Encounter 3: Air Elementals.
Better?
Much. If I was playing it I would not have had the elemental do a flyby, but instead had it hover, but it is a distinction without a difference. Had it done that, instead of killing it on the AOO, you would have killed it on your next attack (you go before it gets to go again, readied action etc).
So go ahead and leave it that way, and continue on with other challenges.
The only way I can think of that can save them involves grappling 2 or more elementals.
If I can grapple an elemental and Pouncy grapples another then only 1 elemental is left to try and kill one of the NPC's. Even grappling them for a round screws them up to the point they won't kill anyone I think.
If I find myself with extra time and books I'll try to work out the action sequence.
Grappling might work. So might sticking a dismissal or very serious debuff (eg, Tashas, if you speak Auran) on one that targets an NPC.
I do think that defeating all 3 elementals and saving the PC's would give serious bragging rights, and even saving one NPC is a pretty seriously cool thing. It would also make the following battles easier, both are capable of contributing somewhat, even at APL7. I hadn't really intended this encounter to be more than another solo challenge, but if you want to try to "win cleanly" it's a lot harder than saving the bar patrons from the werebear.
This is what is known in the trade as "breaking the module". As a GM I'm pretty impressed when it happens and am generally ok with it, but I'm pretty firm about it being done by the numbers. The tricks the PC's try have to be legal and the bad guys get to respond.
I just posted theFull Moonvs Gibbering Mouther and Dryads.
This mini-adventure was rough.
I used up all three of my enlarge person potions, my potion of flight, my rage, my bracers of quick strike, and a charge from my healing belt. I am looking forward to leveling to buy more stuff.
.
Looks good Meyers. I need to try Bela on this. Maybe this weekend. Work and home stuff have limited my time and these challenges are time consuming.
Yes, the driads could spam charm person but their goal is to drain you into a mindless husk and feed you to the tree, so you will keep having opportunities snap out. Dryads also only get 4 tries each (3 charms and 1 suggestion) so they need to do something with those that takes you out for good. Charms only last a few hours.
That makes it fair. I'll be interested to see how you fare against the succubus (level drain is harder on PC's than wisdom drain, even if both trash will saves) - she's also more mobile and has other options than just mental stuff.
Question: I am getting ready to make some changes to "Me Too" and I saw this ... I read page 120 of complete adventurer, and I cannot find the part where it says you can put potions in capsule retainers (which say that can hold an alchemical capsule).
It's Dungeonscape and it's not cheap. The same place I got those wand chambers you see me using in the level 7 challenge. Opened up a lot of neat ranger and hexblade spells for combat use, especially with crystals of return saving me draw actions.
There's a capsule-retainer-like thing you can attach to a weapon that lets one potion spray over it as a swift action. I don't remember anything that let you drink a potion as a swift, the chamber was only for oils and similar.
The CA weapon capsule retainers are strictly for alchemicals. They're pretty good too but I wasn't able to squeeze the price of it in, even at level 7. Bela's L7 vs L7 consumable burn is pretty high. Actually when fighting at APL, he seems to burn about half his levelx1000 inconsumables, both at L7 and L5.
read page 120 of complete adventurer, and I cannot find the part where it says you can put potions in capsule retainers (which say that can hold an alchemical capsule).
If you can point that out to me ... I would appreciate it.
Also, what is an armor chamber for potions (cost, etc) ... as this is looking nice.
Reply With Quote
Armor chambers for potions are somewhere else, Dungeonscape has Shield/Weapon chambers for wands, which is what I used. I think you might be able to find the Magic and Equipment guide.
What do you mean, the wand chambers aren't cheap? They're merely 100 gp!
Alchemical retainers in your mouth hold a certain volume of liquid. It doesn't matter if the potion is a potion of antitoxin like their example or a potion of haste. It just says "Holds this much liquid, which you can break open." Then gives a list of new alchemical items that you could put in.
And you're thinking of the equivilent weapons capsules, that I was thinking about using before I discovered the dungeonscape thing.
It currently:
Uses almost no expendibles
Has an answer for most things (rarely the most optimal)
Hits hard (1 round took out an air elemental)
Likes mobility (tumble/etc)
Yeah. I like your character. It's a good solid damage oriented light infantry guy. My guy is a switch hitter because he can't muster the raw damage you can with the warblade tricks. He needs to be more durable to win his (usually) slower fights.
That need for durability is most of why his consumable burn is so high. They're almost all spent on defensive buffs and healing, although at L7 the bull str, swift haste and enlarge potions do add up over time.
Yeah. I like your character. It's a good solid damage oriented light infantry guy. My guy is a switch hitter because he can't muster the raw damage you can with the warblade tricks. He needs to be more durable to win his (usually) slower fights.
That need for durability is most of why his consumable burn is so high. They're almost all spent on defensive buffs and healing, although at L7 the bull str, swift haste and enlarge potions do add up over time.
Imagine me swapping my spiked chain for your Blue Ice technique, and with the extra 1500 or so, a potion of favorable sacrifice (dr10/ energy resistance 10) -- but ... not something that feels right for this character.
"Shaky" and "Weak-Eyed" are better flaws only because of the fairly ludicrous nature of most of these challenges. It seems like 80% of them involve fighting some beefy monster in an enclosed space.
Of course, I'm still reading this thread so there must be some entertainment value in it...:P
The problem is if you let the casters fire off a bunch of spells, or even a bunch of buffs at the start of the encounter they will appear even more overpowered than they already are.
A wizard with imp init, skittish nerves and scrolls of quickened truestrike and disintegrate or something would make for a funny entrant.
I personally think limiting by spells a pure caster could cast at that level is bunk, considering a caster can use a spell of higher level than they can cast with a stupidly easy caster level check, dc=caster level to cast the scroll I think? So for a level 5 to cast a 9th level spell they need a 12. Hardly challenging. Especially compared to the UMD check of 37 needed to cast the same scroll.
The problem is if you let the casters fire off a bunch of spells, or even a bunch of buffs at the start of the encounter they will appear even more overpowered than they already are.
Which is why there are a couple mini-adventures where you cannot pre-buff FTW.
will try to post it this weekend
:D
Which is why there are a couple mini-adventures where you cannot pre-buff FTW.
I have yet to see any that seriously inconvenience either the DMM cleric or fleshraker pair.
What he was referring to is every encounter starting off either in melee range or actually at 5'. That is a point in favor of the melee builds, especially the non-caster melee that can't really make good use of several rounds of prep time.
Yes, the driads could spam charm person but their goal is to drain you into a mindless husk and feed you to the tree, so you will keep having opportunities snap out. Dryads also only get 4 tries each (3 charms and 1 suggestion) so they need to do something with those that takes you out for good. Charms only last a few hours.
Deep slumber will take someone out for good for good. Its their highest DC save and immobilizes just fine. Throw in their use rope and charm/suggestion for backups.
Deep slumber will take someone out for good for good. Its their highest DC save and immobilizes just fine. Throw in their use rope and charm/suggestion for backups.
Yeah, I really don't see why they wouldn't spam this a few times at least. They can make out with the unconscious dude to drain his wisdom, and then feed him to the tree. They don't have to go for the Coup De Grace. Anyone with a crappy will save and that can't get/stay out of range and/or take them out before they get to use this should lose this encounter.
I'm not sure how to go through this with Hubert and not have him die to the elementals. He can't fly, and can't survive the fall. If the fight started on a stone surface, he could use Meld into Stone. I was planning on giving him a scroll or two of that, but haven't in the original version. Still, he'd have to draw it during the "surprize" round, and he'd lose initiative, so I'm not sure he'd even get to use it before he was 100 feet in the air. If he starts with a large sized animated undead, I guess he could command it to hold him down or something.
Hmm... would a tanglefoot bag on his elemental save him?
Imagine me swapping my spiked chain for your Blue Ice technique, and with the extra 1500 or so, a potion of favorable sacrifice (dr10/ energy resistance 10) -- but ... not something that feels right for this character.
Blue ice is only useful on slashing weapons. I did it mostly because the real char did.
I can't bring myself to use favorable sacrifice
It may be silly because I do plenty of other spells, but that one is not generally available in the main campaign I play in for a reason..way too cheap for what it does.Deep slumber will take someone out for good for good. Its their highest DC save and immobilizes just fine. Throw in their use rope and charm/suggestion for backups.
Deep slumber is usually crap, because it takes a full round to cast. There is a rule somewhere that says casting time for spell-likes is same as the spell if there is an equivalent spell and I play my monsters using that.
It's a lot better in a solo challenge though, especially with two of them. That wasn't what I was going for with this challenge though. I wanted spammed will save spells combined with a secondary effect that drained your will, but also that fit the story (so no allips).
This encounter is supposed to be succubus. The dryads and the wisdom drain mechanic was the best I could come up with to make a similar encounter at APL5 with the same dynamic (will save to temporarily disable with a followup that makes you more vuln to the will save effect, but that takes time to actually kill you).
Given how the fight went with Meyer's character I think I got what I was trying to do in that encounter. Turning it into "they scatter and cast multiple DC15 save or the fight is over" wasn't the challenge I was trying to do. Perhaps they lost that ability in order to get the wisdom drain stuff.
I'm not sure how to go through this with Hubert and not have him die to the elementals. He can't fly, and can't survive the fall. If the fight started on a stone surface, he could use Meld into Stone. I was planning on giving him a scroll or two of that, but haven't in the original version. Still, he'd have to draw it during the "surprize" round, and he'd lose initiative, so I'm not sure he'd even get to use it before he was 100 feet in the air. If he starts with a large sized animated undead, I guess he could command it to hold him down or something.
Hmm... would a tanglefoot bag on his elemental save him?
Remember that round 1 they scatter the party. You get one shot at a countermeasure before they zip you up and drop you.
A tanglefoot bag means they only lift you up 100' in round 2, which might make a difference for some characters but it's still likely to hurt.
I actually thought this one would probably kill Bela until I remembered his translocation anklets. Now I think Bela will probably win, but until it is played out I won't know for sure.
I have yet to see any that seriously inconvenience either the DMM cleric or fleshraker pair.
.
Actually the DMM cleric was dubious about the elemental encounter at APL5.
The fleshraker maybe. I'm not convinced that unbuffed they have much of a chance of making all that grappling work, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. I'm actually dying to see how that pair works without short term buffs. It could be very impressive but I can't separate their capabilities from that because they haven't been done without the buffs ever.
I don't think the fleshraker druid is going to be able to cope with the werebear without letting it slaughter most of the bar patrons while trying to get his pet. That's enough of a "victory" against that type of char for me as author because it illustrates one common problem druids have with their dependence on pets and wildshape, especially around level 5 when wildshapes are a 1/day thing. Even Meyer's guy letting two get almost killed and healing them isn't as clean as somebody who can keep the bear's attention and still defeat it without letting it hurt anyone else.
Something else I just noticed: a DC 18 Knowledge (The Planes) check should identify the elementals. My wizard has +11. I might try running him through this. I made a more complete version of him a while back (full spellbook, etc), but haven't posted it.
I think I made the DC lower, since what you are recognizing is something even the very small air elementals can do. I used the weakest of type for the planes roll, (and pulled the kn nature DC to recognize that they aren't natural whirlwinds out of my...ehrm...hat). Even if ranger isn't around you (or your familiar if any) would need to make the spot check to notice the whirlwinds, but that's also pretty easy.
Deep slumber is usually crap, because it takes a full round to cast. There is a rule somewhere that says casting time for spell-likes is same as the spell if there is an equivalent spell and I play my monsters using that.
I would like a quote on where that shows up. It would affect a number of tricks, one I may or may not use at a later date.
I don't think the fleshraker druid is going to be able to cope with the werebear without letting it slaughter most of the bar patrons while trying to get his pet. That's enough of a "victory" against that type of char for me as author because it illustrates one common problem druids have with their dependence on pets and wildshape, especially around level 5 when wildshapes are a 1/day thing. Even Meyer's guy letting two get almost killed and healing them isn't as clean as somebody who can keep the bear's attention and still defeat it without letting it hurt anyone else.
He can stop the bear better than Meyer without a rules change about a cage at the bar to hold Pouncy. Even with that he loses a round going and getting his pet and then beats the bear down, oh no.
Druids aren't dependent on wildshape, or spells, or their companion, any single of those makes them quite playable and having all three makes them quite unbalanced. The druid is far better able to adapt to a changing environment than any of the non-caster builds presented so far.
If you really like I will submit a series of encounters and we can see how poorly a non-caster adapts to a radically different environment. Encounter 1 exploring an underwater temple you find a caster of some kind who dispels any waterbreathing you have or suppresses your item while his friend grapples you. Come to think of it a druid 5 with an octopus companion would work perfect for that. Encounter 2 you are at at the bottom of a hill in high winds, medium and smaller creatures checked/no ranged attacks etc. At the top is a random caster that spams will save or dies on you. Encounter 3... The list goes on and on. In all of those situations the caster is better able to adapt, especially if they know ahead of time what the situation will be.
I think I made the DC lower, since what you are recognizing is something even the very small air elementals can do. I used the weakest of type for the planes roll, (and pulled the kn nature DC to recognize that they aren't natural whirlwinds out of my...ehrm...hat). Even if ranger isn't around you (or your familiar if any) would need to make the spot check to notice the whirlwinds, but that's also pretty easy.
There is nothing mentioned in the adventure writeup about using Knowledge (Planes) to ID them. That's why I brought it up.
He can stop the bear better than Meyer without a rules change about a cage at the bar to hold Pouncy. Even with that he loses a round going and getting his pet and then beats the bear down, oh no.
I wasn't proud of my behavior in the bar ... Letting those two guys get almost killed was not as heroic as I wanted, but ... I didn't know any other/better way to do it ... and I am not the DMM cleric, who can take full attacks (DR10/) ... nor am I bela (ac 25+) ... so, my response is not going to be as stellar ...
Druids aren't dependent on wildshape, or spells, or their companion, any single of those makes them quite playable and having all three makes them quite unbalanced. The druid is far better able to adapt to a changing environment than any of the non-caster builds presented so far.
Possibly ... Druid gets to choose his wild-shaped form, can memorize/prepare spells from any splat book (no spellbook), and (with time) can acquire a very appropriate companion.
However, with no pre-knowledge/prep time, I am unsure of how much more adaptable they are. I agree with SolbergB that it would be quite interesting to see how you and pouncy demonstrate adaptibility.
If you really like I will submit a series of encounters and we can see how poorly a non-caster adapts to a radically different environment. Encounter 1 exploring an underwater temple you find a caster of some kind who dispels any waterbreathing you have or suppresses your item while his friend grapples you. Come to think of it a druid 5 with an octopus companion would work perfect for that. Encounter 2 you are at at the bottom of a hill in high winds, medium and smaller creatures checked/no ranged attacks etc. At the top is a random caster that spams will save or dies on you. Encounter 3... The list goes on and on. In all of those situations the caster is better able to adapt, especially if they know ahead of time what the situation will be.
Sounds good -- I would like to see that ... however, I would ask that if we need to be underwater, that we can make some modifications to our characters (myself for instance, I cannot breathe underwater ... so would need to swap out my potion of flight for something else). If we cannot, then I wouldn't be able to participate in such a mini-adventure.
However, I think that a spellcaster who dispels buffs would be very insightful, as that is something we have yet to see (myself, with my Orc, I basically don't have buffs to worry about).
Most of the arcane casters here ... would not do well as they do not have full spellbooks, so their spell choices are very limited.
However, I think what was attempted by "Full Moon" was to see whether or not the spellcasters submitted have the issues that are associated with them.
I would like a quote on where that shows up. It would affect a number of tricks, one I may or may not use at a later date.
From the SRD
Spell-Like Abilities: Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) fails, you can’t use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.
Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Looks to me that spell-like/SU abilities take one standard, not a full round.
Remember that round 1 they scatter the party. You get one shot at a countermeasure before they zip you up and drop you.
A tanglefoot bag means they only lift you up 100' in round 2, which might make a difference for some characters but it's still likely to hurt.
Or they take another round to bring you up to 200' (like they wanted to do with the bard
)I actually thought this one would probably kill Bela until I remembered his translocation anklets. Now I think Bela will probably win, but until it is played out I won't know for sure.
Bela only can use it ... if he hadn't previously ... which is not always easy to do. Like for me, if I had my rage later on, things would have been easier ... but ...
I'm not sure how to go through this with Hubert and not have him die to the elementals. He can't fly, and can't survive the fall. If the fight started on a stone surface, he could use Meld into Stone. I was planning on giving him a scroll or two of that, but haven't in the original version. Still, he'd have to draw it during the "surprize" round, and he'd lose initiative, so I'm not sure he'd even get to use it before he was 100 feet in the air. If he starts with a large sized animated undead, I guess he could command it to hold him down or something.
Hmm... would a tanglefoot bag on his elemental save him?
Just be careful of modifying the builds based on new encounters -- depending on how it is done, it gives the appearance of metagaming, even when it is not. This is one of the reasons why I have asked people to post full builds ... but, you might have good reason (even saying "it was one of the things I had meant to do with my X gold left over" is good enough)
Tactics for Casty the Spellcaster
real name: Gene Eric McSpellcaster
Silverbrow Human(dragonblooded)
actual size is the smallest on the Height and Weight Chart(4'10" and 120lbs)
Generic Spellcaster(Arcane) 5/ Incantatrix 1
Attributes:
8 Str
12 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
14 Wis(13+1 lvl)
8 Cha
Feats:
Fell Drain(Spellcaster Bonus)
Earth Sense (human Bonus)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Earth Spell (flaw)
1st Lvl Fiery Burst
3rd lvl Versatile Caster
5th lvl Practical Metamagic(Fell Drain) (Spellcaster bonus)
Iron Will..from location
6th lvl Arcane Thesis(Magic Missile)
Energy Substitution Acid(incantatrix Bonus)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Equipment
Magic items
-2x Arcanist Gloves 1000gp(+2 CL 1st lvl spell 4/day)
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day empower 1st lvl spell)1500gp
-2x Incense of Concentration(250gp each.... gives 1 extra 1st lvl Spell Slot 24 hour duration)
-Otyugh Hole(legendary location, Complete Scoundrel)gives Feat: Iron Will, permanently...3000gp value
-Healing Belt 750gp
-Memento Magica(MIC) 1500gp like 1st lvl Pearl of Power for Spontaneous caster
450gp Wand of Alter Self(5 chgs)
150gp Wand of Mage Armor(10 chgs)
150gp Wand of Shield(10 chgs)
1125gp Wand of Fly(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Heroics(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Invisibility(5 chgs)
150gp pack of Daylight Pellets (Magic item Compendium) ..... as Daylight spell 10 rounds, 3d4 pellets per pack(7 pellets ave)
11175gp
-2x Arcanist Gloves 1000gp(+2 CL 1st lvl spell 4/day)
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day empower 1st lvl spell)1500gp
-2x Incense of Concentration(250gp each.... gives 1 extra 1st lvl Spell Slot 24 hour duration)
-Otyugh Hole(legendary location, Complete Scoundrel)gives Feat: Iron Will, permanently...3000gp value
-Healing Belt 750gp
-Memento Magica(MIC) 1500gp like 1st lvl Pearl of Power for Spontaneous caster
450gp Wand of Alter Self(5 chgs)
150gp Wand of Mage Armor(10 chgs)
150gp Wand of Shield(10 chgs)
1125gp Wand of Fly(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Heroics(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Invisibility(5 chgs)
150gp pack of Daylight Pellets (Magic item Compendium) ..... as Daylight spell 10 rounds, 3d4 pellets per pack(7 pellets ave)
11175gp
Buff routine:
if near the location of Dungeon(the morning he will enter it)... use Incense of Concentration to gain extra 1st lvl Spell
in morning cast:
Primal Instinct...... +5 Initiative,+5 Survival,+5Knowledge skill of choice
before entering dungeons(crypts,caves,buildings,etc...) :
use Alchemical items..boost CL+2, and +4 to attacks
use Wands ... gain :
Imp Initiative(+4 Initiative) .... wand of Heroics
+4 Armor ........ Wand Mage Armor
+4 Shield ....... Wand Shield
+8 Natural Armor ... Wand Alter Self(troglodyte Form)
Fly 60'(good) ...wand Fly
if needed ... he also can cast Flame blade... to always have a Melee touch attack ready in one hand
Magic Missile Damage:....no save/SR yes
[indent]
Unbuffed= CL=9(6 lvl +1 Spelltouched Evoc + 2 Arcane Thesis)
Buffed= CL 11(or 13 if using Arcanist Gloves... only vs SR if needed)
Damage= 1d4+1 per Missile = 3.5 per Missile
minimum 5 missiles = 17.5 Damage
add on 1 Negative Level vs Living creatures(not Undead or Constructs)[sblock=Negative level Effects]A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.
[indent]–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature
Fell Drain(Spellcaster Bonus)
Earth Sense (human Bonus)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Earth Spell (flaw)
1st Lvl Fiery Burst
3rd lvl Versatile Caster
5th lvl Arcane Thesis(Magic Missile) (Spellcaster bonus)
Iron Will..from location
6th lvl Practical Metamagic(Fell Drain)
Energy Substitution Acid(incantatrix Bonus)
Arcane Thesis requires you to have 9 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), so I think you need to take it at L6 (take Practical Metamagic at L5 instead), unless one of your abilities that I'm not familiar with lets you exceed the normal limit on skill ranks. Practical Metamagic and Fiery Burst both have "ability to cast X-level spells" requirements, but I imagine you're getting around that with Earth Spell + Heighten.
Hubert has both Bluff and Disguise +9, so he fakes peacebonds for his weapons and if they are spotted, tries to talk his way out of it. It doesn't really help him much, as he sucks with weapons anyway... but he's sneaky and paranoid.
I'm going to change his prepared spells and gear around a bit to better represent what he might use while adventuring with companions instead of solo, and also to represent what he's learned (and I have) from his earlier adventures.
I'm also going to say that he starts with the zombie griffon from the "alternate" mini-adventure. He'll either stable it, or leave it outside town, depending on if they allow undead "mounts" in town or not. He could try to disguise it as a living griffon, but the DC is probably too high. Although, it has no wounds on it, as it was killed by a shadow. So maybe not... especially if he puts an Extended Gentle Repose on it every few days in his off-time.
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Zombie griffon, large undead
HD 14d12+14 (108)
Initiative +1
Speed 30, fly 80 (clumsy)
AC 19 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 nat), touch 10, ff 18
BAB/Grapple +7/+16
Attack: Bite +12 (2d6+7)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +9
Feats: Toughness
SQ: DR 5/slashing, immunities
Stats: Str 20, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Prepared Cleric Spells (CL3):
0th No Light (BovD), Detect Magic, Resistance, Read Magic
1st: Unseen Servant, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Detect Secret Doors (D)
2nd: Eyes of the Zombie (BoVD), Resist Energy, Invisibility (D)
Equipment: He gets rid of one scroll of Command Undead, and gets a scroll of Lesser Restoration instead. He gets rid of one each of his alchemist's fire, holy water, and acid vials, and gets a potion/oil of Remove Scent. He had a Wand Chamber added to his shield, and the Sanctified property so it can act as his Holy Symbol (+150 gp). To pay for that, he got rid of one scroll of Summon Swarm. His new equipment list and wealth looks like the following:
Equipment (8980/9000): morning star (8), +1 chainshirt (1250), +1 Sanctified darkwood heavy shield w/Wand Chamber (1407), MW composite longbow + 50 arrows (411), 1 vials holy water (25 gp), 1 alchemist's fires (20), 2 flasks of acid (20 gp), Wand of Faith Healing (10 charges, 150 gp), 1 scrolls of Command Undead (150), 1 scroll of Summon Swarm (150), 1 scroll of Spectral Hand (150), 2 scrolls False Life (300), 1 scroll of Desecrate (150, USED), 1 scroll of See Invisible (150), 1 scroll of Lesser Restoration (150), one CL 5 scrolls of Animate Dead (375+500onyx, can animate 20 HD, USED), 2 scrolls of Unseen Servant (50), 1 scroll of Silence (150), 2 scrolls Invisibility (300), 2 scrolls Favorable Sacrifice (CL 5 with 250 gp sacrifice included, 1250 gp total), 1 potion of Remove Scent (50), 2 tanglefoot bags (100 gp), 4 Wooden Holy Symbols (4), Disguise kit (50), Everburning Torch with tight cap (110), MW tools for Hide, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Concentration (200), Oil of Magic Fang (50), Elixir of Hiding (250, +10 comp. to Hide for 1 hr), Pearl of Power 1 (1000), other cheap adventuring gear (50 ft. silk rope, candles, chalk, paper, pen, ink, a couple of days rations, small mirror, waterskins, etc, all 50 gold or so).
Zombie griffon, large undead
HD 14d12+14 (108)
Initiative +1
Speed 30, fly 80 (clumsy)
AC 19 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 nat), touch 10, ff 18
BAB/Grapple +7/+16
Attack: Bite +12 (2d6+7)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +9
Feats: Toughness
SQ: DR 5/slashing, immunities
Stats: Str 20, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Prepared Cleric Spells (CL3):
0th No Light (BovD), Detect Magic, Resistance, Read Magic
1st: Unseen Servant, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Detect Secret Doors (D)
2nd: Eyes of the Zombie (BoVD), Resist Energy, Invisibility (D)
Equipment: He gets rid of one scroll of Command Undead, and gets a scroll of Lesser Restoration instead. He gets rid of one each of his alchemist's fire, holy water, and acid vials, and gets a potion/oil of Remove Scent. He had a Wand Chamber added to his shield, and the Sanctified property so it can act as his Holy Symbol (+150 gp). To pay for that, he got rid of one scroll of Summon Swarm. His new equipment list and wealth looks like the following:
Equipment (8980/9000): morning star (8), +1 chainshirt (1250), +1 Sanctified darkwood heavy shield w/Wand Chamber (1407), MW composite longbow + 50 arrows (411), 1 vials holy water (25 gp), 1 alchemist's fires (20), 2 flasks of acid (20 gp), Wand of Faith Healing (10 charges, 150 gp), 1 scrolls of Command Undead (150), 1 scroll of Summon Swarm (150), 1 scroll of Spectral Hand (150), 2 scrolls False Life (300), 1 scroll of Desecrate (150, USED), 1 scroll of See Invisible (150), 1 scroll of Lesser Restoration (150), one CL 5 scrolls of Animate Dead (375+500onyx, can animate 20 HD, USED), 2 scrolls of Unseen Servant (50), 1 scroll of Silence (150), 2 scrolls Invisibility (300), 2 scrolls Favorable Sacrifice (CL 5 with 250 gp sacrifice included, 1250 gp total), 1 potion of Remove Scent (50), 2 tanglefoot bags (100 gp), 4 Wooden Holy Symbols (4), Disguise kit (50), Everburning Torch with tight cap (110), MW tools for Hide, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Concentration (200), Oil of Magic Fang (50), Elixir of Hiding (250, +10 comp. to Hide for 1 hr), Pearl of Power 1 (1000), other cheap adventuring gear (50 ft. silk rope, candles, chalk, paper, pen, ink, a couple of days rations, small mirror, waterskins, etc, all 50 gold or so).
I'm going to change his prepared spells and gear around a bit to better represent what he might use while adventuring with companions instead of solo, and also to represent what he's learned (and I have) from his earlier adventures.
Your remove scent/lesser restoration changes are crucial to passing round 1. If this metagaming or legit? If legit, then I withdraw this question.
Encounter 1
Hubert defensively (+10 vs. DC 16, 75%) casts Obscuring Mist on the "surprize round" and yells for the other patrons to run.
There is no surprise round per posted encounter. You are thinking encounter 3.
Round 1
They both have +1 initiative, so 50/100 goes to Hubert. He moves away, drawing an AoO (80/100 concealment, +13 vs. AC 19, 75/100, hits) which does 12.5, and summons a shadow. The shadow hits Elmo (80/100 concealment, +3 vs TouchAC10, 70/100) for 3.5 Str damage (Str now 25.5).
Question: how are you telling the shadow which guy to attack?
From Summon Monster, which you say is what your Summon Shadow ability is.
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The werebear swats uselessly at the shadow. The Inn patrons fumble their way towards the exits.
Per posted encounter: If you are not in full attack range, it goes after the patrons ... now, it might be that since you have SOMETHING in full attack range, then this is fine.
Hubert wonders how weak Elmo is getting, and tests it by moving past him. Elmo misses the AoO (210/200 concealment, +3 vs AC 19, 25%+75=100/200, miss). Hubert judges that Elmo is weak enough, and tells the Shadow to stop fighting and find the door for him. He realizes he can't really hurt Elmo with weapons, and finishes his movement fumbling for the exit.
How are you communicating with it?
Elmo obliges him, and swings at Hubert (175/200) doing 1d6-1, which fails to bypass his DR.
Rounds 7-?
Hubert goes to get his zombie, and has it subdue Elmo via subdual damage and/or grappling. Elmo follows him, but can't really bypass his DR (or the zombies). (The bite could occasionally, but that's not his main weapon).
So, the werebear, who was able to figure out attacking the shadow is pointless, is unable to figure out that attacking you is pointless and instead attack random peasants?
You have no weapons out (shield + uses potions/etc) and even if you did, I doubt you could get past its DR 10/silver (1d8-1) ... so why doesn't it grapple/pin you ... and gnaw your head off? Or are we playing that it is not smart enough to try winning tactics?
Encounter 3
Hubert insists that they wait till an hour or so before dusk before leaving town, so he can use his shadows freely once they get where ever they're going.
Dunno if this is needed, as this adventure is really late in the day anyway.
Round 4
The elemental leaves whirlwind form, and hits Hubert with a slam (+8 vs ffAC18, 50/100) for 4 after his DR. Hubert tells the zombie to release him and attack the elemental. It claws the elemental (+12 vs AC 20, 65%/100) for 9. Hubert moves 30 feet and casts Invisibility. This draws an AoO which misses (100/200).
So, the elemental (large, 10' reach), is fighting from a position so that the griffon (5' reach) can attack it? Why? Why not attack from 10' away and not worry about this?
Round 5
Elemental swings at Hubert (50/100 concealment, 95/100) and hits for 4 more. The zombie misses the elemental (130/200). Hubert moves and uses a wand charge.
And now the elemental is attacking the square where it thinks you are, from 5' away, so that the griffon can attack it back? Why?
Round 6
Elemental moves to where it heard Hubert and misses him (100/200 concealment). The zombie hits with its AoO (195/200) for 9. The zombie then charges (270/300) and does 9 more. Hubert tries to move silently (+0).
Now, the elemental is hunting an invisibly opponent while the griffon is attacking him. If it simple moved 5' higher off the ground, then the griffon could not attack it. Alternately, using fly-by attack could do wonders ... zombie (although it can fly) could not ready an action to attack the air elemental (the zombie takes more than 5' of movement to gain 5' of elevation, and it cannot partial charge vertically). The perfect maneuverability of the air elemental vs the clumsy maneuverability of the zombie means that in aerial combat, the zombie could never get into position to be able to attack.
Round 7
The elemental hears Hubert (+5 vs +0, 75%?), moves, and misses him (150/200 conc., 130/200 miss). The zombie misses on its AoO (345/400), but hits on its charge (410/400) for 9. Hubert moves silently again.
The air elemental is again ignoring the creature attacking him -- and hunting for the invisible creature?
Encounter 5
Hubert's invisibility has worn off, but he still has +18 to hide vs. the dryads' +9 spot (not counting distance penalties). He sends in the Unseen Servant "bait" first, as usual, and observes how the dryad's react to it. I don't think Spell-like abilities are obvious, so he may not even notice if they try to charm the decoy. He has no ranks in Knowledge (Nature), so he won't know what they are, either.
+9 spot vs +9 disguise check ... and the disguise check has penalties ... so the dryads could probably ignore the scarecrow ...
I could see them playing with it
"Hello Mr. Scarecrow ... would you like to be my friend"
"Lets play dressup with it as well"
(also, if you can edit Hubert to point to your completed/attempted mini-adventures, it makes things much easier)
Lastly, you do not list that you have expended the desecration/animate dead/control undead scrolls from the mini-adventure. Normally, they refresh, but you cannot have the undead for free ... (this is only relevant for comparing expended resources)
Your remove scent/lesser restoration changes are crucial to passing round 1. If this metagaming or legit? If legit, then I withdraw this question.
Lesser Restoration has nothing to do with passing round 1. I could have easily killed Elmo, or just said that the local clerics restored his strength.
As for the scent, it doesn't matter at all for this fight. I still had him swinging into the exactly correct square, even after Hubert drinks the Remove Scent potion.
There is no surprise round per posted encounter. You are thinking encounter 3
So call it round 1. It doesn't change anything. I also ran it with Elmo winning initiative, and Hubert still wins. He just takes more damage and has to use more wand charges.
Question: how are you telling the shadow which guy to attack?
From Summon Monster, which you say is what your Summon Shadow ability is.
I figured they could understand common, since they are undead that were formerly humanoids. Even if it can't, I can summon it right next to Elmo. Summon Monster says it attacks "opponents", right?
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
So I can certainly direct it to enemies vs. allies, otherwise how does anyone ever use a Summon Monster spell? Having it find the door doesn't matter at all. Hubert will find it in a round or 2.
Per posted encounter: If you are not in full attack range, it goes after the patrons ... now, it might be that since you have SOMETHING in full attack range, then this is fine.
I figured this was the case. If not, fine. Hubert himself probably wouldn't care much if Elmo munched on the other Inn patrons.
So, the werebear, who was able to figure out attacking the shadow is pointless, is unable to figure out that attacking you is pointless and instead attack random peasants?
You have no weapons out (shield + uses potions/etc) and even if you did, I doubt you could get past its DR 10/silver (1d8-1) ... so why doesn't it grapple/pin you ... and gnaw your head off? Or are we playing that it is not smart enough to try winning tactics?
Valid points. Hubert would still win, whatever Elmo does. He could kill Elmo with the shadow(s) if he can't get to the zombie. Elmo can hardly damage him at all at the point where they enter the street, due to Str damage + DR. Also, I think soldberg said it only takes two rounds to retrieve your "mount".
So, the elemental (large, 10' reach), is fighting from a position so that the griffon (5' reach) can attack it? Why? Why not attack from 10' away and not worry about this?
And now the elemental is attacking the square where it thinks you are, from 5' away, so that the griffon can attack it back? Why?
Now, the elemental is hunting an invisibly opponent while the griffon is attacking him. If it simple moved 5' higher off the ground, then the griffon could not attack it. Alternately, using fly-by attack could do wonders ... zombie (although it can fly) could not ready an action to attack the air elemental (the zombie takes more than 5' of movement to gain 5' of elevation, and it cannot partial charge vertically). The perfect maneuverability of the air elemental vs the clumsy maneuverability of the zombie means that in aerial combat, the zombie could never get into position to be able to attack.
The air elemental is again ignoring the creature attacking him -- and hunting for the invisible creature?
Very valid points. I forgot that the elemental has superior reach to the griffon. I will rerun this. I'll probably have to use a shadow to kill it.
+9 spot vs +9 disguise check ... and the disguise check has penalties ... so the dryads could probably ignore the scarecrow ...
I could see them playing with it
"Hello Mr. Scarecrow ... would you like to be my friend"
"Lets play dressup with it as well"
It wouldn't matter. As I posted, Hubert passes the saves of whatever they throw at him, even if he walks out into the open and tips his hat to them on the first round. Then he retreats and sends in undead which kill them easily.
(also, if you can edit Hubert to point to your completed/attempted mini-adventures, it makes things much easier)
No problem. I was hesitant to modify the character for fears of people claiming I changed something... :P
Lastly, you do not list that you have expended the desecration/animate dead/control undead scrolls from the mini-adventure. Normally, they refresh, but you cannot have the undead for free ... (this is only relevant for comparing expended resources)
I'll put in parenthesis that they were used in the equipment section.
Lesser Restoration has nothing to do with passing round 1. I could have easily killed Elmo, or just said that the local clerics restored his strength.
It only makes a difference as if Elmo dies, the diplomacy check for encounter 2 is almost impossible to make (rushed is -10, DC is 25, resulting in an effective DC of 35).
Having the local cleric do it ... might work
So call it round 1. It doesn't change anything.
Round 1: you cast obscuring mist.
Werebear chomps on 2 commoners ...
This is the difference
Nothing as far as victory/loss is concerned, but as far as coolness points ....I figured they could understand common, since they are undead that were formerly humanoids. Even if it can't, I can summon it right next to Elmo. It should go after the first "enemy" it percieves, right? I can certainly direct it to enemies vs. allies, otherwise how does anyone ever use a Summon Monster spell?
Ah ... gotcha ... forgot about the (very real and valid) metagame (who is an ally, who is an enemy) distinction ...
Valid points. Hubert would still win, whatever Elmo does. He could kill Elmo with the shadow(s) if he can't get to the zombie. Elmo can hardly damage him at all at the point where they enter the street, due to Str damage + DR. Also, I think soldberg said it only takes two rounds to retrieve your "mount".
Killing Elmo changes encounter 2 drastically. I think the 2 rounds is to reach the stables, the at least one round to open the door ...
Very valid points. I forgot that the elemental has superior reach to the griffon. I will rerun this. I'll probably have to use a shadow to kill it.
Don't forget the concentration checks for your spell-like abilities to make it so that you do not provoke from the elemental.
It wouldn't matter. As I posted, Hubert passes the saves of whatever they throw at him, even if he walks out into the open and tips his hat to them on the first round. Then he retreats and sends in undead which kill them easily.
Too true ...
No problem. I was hesitant to modify the character for fears of people claiming I changed something... :P
Grin
Point taken. But when we (or at least I) am trying to find fights ... looking in one spot is much easier than looking in tons of spots ...I'll put in parenthesis that they were used in the equipment section.
You might also modify the "Resources used" section. Lastly, remember that command undead lasts 1 day/level ... so if you used it in the mini-adventure, how many days do you have left on the CL3 scroll before you lose control of the griffon? (or does the clock reset as this is a new set of equipment -- meaning, this might not be a legitimate concern).
It only makes a difference as if Elmo dies, the diplomacy check for encounter 2 is almost impossible to make (rushed is -10, DC is 25, resulting in an effective DC of 35).
Elmo could take another hit or two from the shadow and survive. I was just playing Hubert as cautious and trying to avoid metagaming how much more Elmo could take. If Elmo gets hit once or twice more by the shadow, he won't be able to hurt Hubert at all.
Round 1: you cast obscuring mist.
Werebear chomps on 2 commoners ...
No, he'd chomp Hubert who hasn't moved yet. And he'd hit with both claws, but miss with the bite. Hubert survives, and then the rest plays out as written, except it uses up more wand charges. I can post it this way if you insist. I already ran it partially like this, as I let Elmo win initiative the first time. It doesn't change the outcome, and I don't want to bother with the time to do it (I deleted the scenario I ran this way, as technically Hubert should win initiative).
Killing Elmo changes encounter 2 drastically. I think the 2 rounds is to reach the stables, the at least one round to open the door ...
Hubert is probably more likely to not kill Elmo, but let him kill a couple of commoners while he gets the zombie to subdue him (Hubert's neutral, so probably has more loyalty to friends than to random commoners). Letting commoners die doesn't change anything, does it?
Don't forget the concentration checks for your spell-like abilities to make it so that you do not provoke from the elemental.
If the elemental is using flyby attacks, it won't be there to take an AoO. If it doesn't use Flyby attacks, the zombie mauls it. I guess it could fly 10 feet over Hubert's head, but as you'll see in the new version below, it would get killed by shadows more quickly if it does this. Also, I'd just have Hubert move and then cast and eat the AoO for movement. The elemental can't do much damage to him, and I'd rather him take a bit more damage than lose spells/SLAs from failed concentration checks.
You might also modify the "Resources used" section. Lastly, remember that command undead lasts 1 day/level ... so if you used it in the mini-adventure, how many days do you have left on the CL3 scroll before you lose control of the griffon? (or does the clock reset as this is a new set of equipment -- meaning, this might not be a legitimate concern).
I don't know. In a real game/set of adventures, he'd automatically control the last one he animated.
Encounter 3 redux
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Hubert insists that they wait till an hour or so before dusk before leaving town, so he can use his shadows freely once they get where ever they're going. When Antonia warns of the approaching elementals, Hubert tells the zombie to grab him and hold him down. It grapples him, dealing 1d4+5, which averages 2.5 after DR. He heals himself with the wand for 6 to full hitpoints.
The elementals kill the NPCs, and Hubert can't do much to stop them. The elemental attacking him can't lift the zombie in whirlwind form (and hence can't lift Hubert). The zombie is stronger than the elemental, also, and so is likely to beat it on Str checks and especially defensive grapple checks (it has 4 legs).
So, I don't think the elemental is likely (or maybe even capable) of lifting Hubert off the ground in the 2 rounds that it tries to while the zombie is grappling him. He takes 2d6 from the 3 rounds of whirlwind as it tries, though (avg 6 total, assuming all failed saves).
Round 4
The elemental leaves whirlwind form, hovers 10 feet off the ground, and hits Hubert with a slam (+8 vs ffAC18, 50/100) for 4 after his DR. Hubert tells the zombie to release him and attack the elemental. The zombie has to move forward to take flight, and so can't charge this round.
Hubert moves 30 feet and casts Invisibility.
EoR:
Hubert 22/32, Elemental full, Zombie full
Round 5
The elemental moves and swings at Hubert (50/100 concealment, 95/100) and hits for 4 more, then uses Flyby Attack to keep going for 70 feet. The zombie is already airborne and has a move of 80, so it charges the elemental (75/100) and does 9 damage to it. Hubert moves and uses a wand charge.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60, Zombie full
Round 6
The elemental moves to where it heard Hubert and misses him (100/200 concealment), and flies off in a different direction than the one the zombie moved last. The zombie has to move 10 feet to turn 45 degrees, and has to move in a straight line to charge, so it can't attack the elemental. From now on, the elemental will move in a way to outmanuver the zombie, so I'll exclude the zombie from the rest of the fight.
Hubert sees that the zombie can't fight the elemental effectively, so he moves towards the elemental and summons a shadow. I thought shadows were powerless in sunlight, but I must have been thinking of another undead. Nothing in the SRD description says that. So the shadow charges the elemental, and hits (+5 vs TouchAC16, 50/100) doing 3.5 str damage.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow full (5/5 rounds)
Round 7
The elemental flyby attacks again, and misses (150/200 conc., 140/200 miss), then finishes its movement.
The shadow can't quite get to it with a charge, but can with a run. So it moves adjacent to the elemental. Hubert pulls out a tanglefoot bag and readies an action to throw it at the elemental just after it swings at him.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60(-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow 4/5 rounds
Round 8
The elemental flyby attacks, and misses (200/300 concealment). The shadow misses on its AoO (+3 vs 16, 40+50=90/200). Hubert misses with the tanglefoot bag (+3 vs TouchAC16, 40+60=100/200), and curses.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow 3/5 rounds
Round 9
The elemental flyby attacks the now visible Hubert and hits (185/200) for 2. The shadow moves adjacent to the elemental again. Hubert moves and summons another shadow, which charges the elemental and misses (+5 vs 16, 25/100).
EoR: Hubert 29/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow1 2/5 rounds, Shadow2 5/5 rounds
Round 10
The elemental flyby attacks and misses (230/300). Shadow1 misses on its AoO (130/200), but Shadow2 hits (50/100). Both shadows move adjacent to the elemental, flanking it. Hubert readies to hit the elemental with a Ray of Enfeeblement.
EoR: Hubert 29/32, Elemental 51/60 (-7 str), Zombie full, Shadow1 1/5 rounds, Shadow2 4/5 rounds
Round 11
The elemental flyby attacks and hits (275/300) for 2. Shadow1 hits on its AoO (165/200), but Shadow2 misses (85/200). Hubert misses with his Ray (+3 vs TouchAC16, 40+100=140/200), and curses some more. Shadow1 dissapears. Shadow2 moves to the elemental.
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental 51/60 (-10.5 str, 3.5 left), Zombie full, Shadow1 gone, Shadow2 3/5 rounds
Round 12
The elemental flyby attacks and misses (320/400). Shadow2 misses on its AoO(110/200). Hubert readies another tanglefoot bag.
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental 51/60 (-10.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow2 2/5 rounds
Round 13
The elemental flyby attacks and hits (365/400), but does no damage. Shadow2 misses on its AoO(135/200). Hubert hits with the tanglefoot bag (180/200). The elemental makes its save (not rolling), but is still entangled and can't finish its movement. Shadow2 charges the elemental and kills it (170/200).
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental dead, Zombie full, Shadow2 1/5 rounds
Hubert insists that they wait till an hour or so before dusk before leaving town, so he can use his shadows freely once they get where ever they're going. When Antonia warns of the approaching elementals, Hubert tells the zombie to grab him and hold him down. It grapples him, dealing 1d4+5, which averages 2.5 after DR. He heals himself with the wand for 6 to full hitpoints.
The elementals kill the NPCs, and Hubert can't do much to stop them. The elemental attacking him can't lift the zombie in whirlwind form (and hence can't lift Hubert). The zombie is stronger than the elemental, also, and so is likely to beat it on Str checks and especially defensive grapple checks (it has 4 legs).
So, I don't think the elemental is likely (or maybe even capable) of lifting Hubert off the ground in the 2 rounds that it tries to while the zombie is grappling him. He takes 2d6 from the 3 rounds of whirlwind as it tries, though (avg 6 total, assuming all failed saves).
Round 4
The elemental leaves whirlwind form, hovers 10 feet off the ground, and hits Hubert with a slam (+8 vs ffAC18, 50/100) for 4 after his DR. Hubert tells the zombie to release him and attack the elemental. The zombie has to move forward to take flight, and so can't charge this round.
Hubert moves 30 feet and casts Invisibility.
EoR:
Hubert 22/32, Elemental full, Zombie full
Round 5
The elemental moves and swings at Hubert (50/100 concealment, 95/100) and hits for 4 more, then uses Flyby Attack to keep going for 70 feet. The zombie is already airborne and has a move of 80, so it charges the elemental (75/100) and does 9 damage to it. Hubert moves and uses a wand charge.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60, Zombie full
Round 6
The elemental moves to where it heard Hubert and misses him (100/200 concealment), and flies off in a different direction than the one the zombie moved last. The zombie has to move 10 feet to turn 45 degrees, and has to move in a straight line to charge, so it can't attack the elemental. From now on, the elemental will move in a way to outmanuver the zombie, so I'll exclude the zombie from the rest of the fight.
Hubert sees that the zombie can't fight the elemental effectively, so he moves towards the elemental and summons a shadow. I thought shadows were powerless in sunlight, but I must have been thinking of another undead. Nothing in the SRD description says that. So the shadow charges the elemental, and hits (+5 vs TouchAC16, 50/100) doing 3.5 str damage.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow full (5/5 rounds)
Round 7
The elemental flyby attacks again, and misses (150/200 conc., 140/200 miss), then finishes its movement.
The shadow can't quite get to it with a charge, but can with a run. So it moves adjacent to the elemental. Hubert pulls out a tanglefoot bag and readies an action to throw it at the elemental just after it swings at him.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60(-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow 4/5 rounds
Round 8
The elemental flyby attacks, and misses (200/300 concealment). The shadow misses on its AoO (+3 vs 16, 40+50=90/200). Hubert misses with the tanglefoot bag (+3 vs TouchAC16, 40+60=100/200), and curses.
EoR: Hubert 31/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow 3/5 rounds
Round 9
The elemental flyby attacks the now visible Hubert and hits (185/200) for 2. The shadow moves adjacent to the elemental again. Hubert moves and summons another shadow, which charges the elemental and misses (+5 vs 16, 25/100).
EoR: Hubert 29/32, Elemental 51/60 (-3.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow1 2/5 rounds, Shadow2 5/5 rounds
Round 10
The elemental flyby attacks and misses (230/300). Shadow1 misses on its AoO (130/200), but Shadow2 hits (50/100). Both shadows move adjacent to the elemental, flanking it. Hubert readies to hit the elemental with a Ray of Enfeeblement.
EoR: Hubert 29/32, Elemental 51/60 (-7 str), Zombie full, Shadow1 1/5 rounds, Shadow2 4/5 rounds
Round 11
The elemental flyby attacks and hits (275/300) for 2. Shadow1 hits on its AoO (165/200), but Shadow2 misses (85/200). Hubert misses with his Ray (+3 vs TouchAC16, 40+100=140/200), and curses some more. Shadow1 dissapears. Shadow2 moves to the elemental.
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental 51/60 (-10.5 str, 3.5 left), Zombie full, Shadow1 gone, Shadow2 3/5 rounds
Round 12
The elemental flyby attacks and misses (320/400). Shadow2 misses on its AoO(110/200). Hubert readies another tanglefoot bag.
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental 51/60 (-10.5 str), Zombie full, Shadow2 2/5 rounds
Round 13
The elemental flyby attacks and hits (365/400), but does no damage. Shadow2 misses on its AoO(135/200). Hubert hits with the tanglefoot bag (180/200). The elemental makes its save (not rolling), but is still entangled and can't finish its movement. Shadow2 charges the elemental and kills it (170/200).
EoR: Hubert 27/32, Elemental dead, Zombie full, Shadow2 1/5 rounds
Or, my favorite, an Effigy kobold Cleric 20. Load it down with Wis boosting buffs and watch it go. I think I should be able to get the spells... I'll post some stuff when I get it figured out.
Arcane Thesis requires you to have 9 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), so I think you need to take it at L6 (take Practical Metamagic at L5 instead), unless one of your abilities that I'm not familiar with lets you exceed the normal limit on skill ranks. Practical Metamagic and Fiery Burst both have "ability to cast X-level spells" requirements, but I imagine you're getting around that with Earth Spell + Heighten.
yes you are correct.... i didnt check everything yet... good catch, will adjust
am still working on the equipment and Tactics
:D
add on 1 Negative Level for each missile vs Living creatures(not Undead or Constructs
The text of Fell Drain is, "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level." The way that I read this, the feat works like, "Did Creature X take damage from Fell Drain Spell Y? If so, they gain a negative level", not "Wherever the spell mentions "X damage", add "and one negative level"". Thus Fell Drain Magic Missile is great for delevelling five creatures at once (similar to Fell Drain Burning Hands if you're close enough), but can't be used to strip away five levels from a single target in one casting.
It's entirely likely that some GMs read it the way you're reading it (just not any GM I've ever played with), and I don't object to seeing how this build goes in the gauntlet, but I do think it's a rather GM-dependent example of an overpowered caster if piling on the neg levels with fell drain magic missiles is the build's primary trick.
If you guess wrong on the strength drain, Elmo will spawn as a shadow and need to be rezzed right? As the ray of enfeeble doesn't do str damage (it is a penalty) you aren't in much danger of him getting reduced to zero even on a crit. If you feed your shadow a bit more, he'd be str 1-2 instead of str 8.
Undead aren't allowed in the city, but the guy who stables gargantuan animal companions will stable a corporeal undead. You can't win encounter 1 by getting the zombie (even if you could get him inside the city somehow, by the time you went to the gates, to the outside stable and fetched him, Elmo would have been defeated by his other party members, if not some "big guns" called by the guard after many casualties), but you have debuffed Elmo enough that the guard will eventually be able to subdue him if you help by drawing AOOs for them. A few guys could pile on and pin him (his grapple check is still pretty high even with 8 strength, but can't stand up to multiple attackers. At 1 str he's easier), until they can get a silver weapon from somebody. It's a pretty inelegant solution but would probably serve.
SU abilities are always std unless it says otherwise.
I can't find the ruling on the spell-like taking normal casting time. I thought it was in the FAQ, but it isn't there. It may be just an interpretation of "normally a std action" and thus it's grey.
I'll not nitpick about it except to say that my dryads won't use deep slumber. I'll go back and say they lost that ability to get the wisdom drain, since I really don't want that encounter to be a "fail one will save and it's all over" encounter. The dynamic was supposed to be like the succubus not like, say, a bodak encounter.
As stated before, in reference to the comment above with Fleshraker, it will take more than one round to fetch the beast and get it out of the stables or kennels (probably kennels). There are at least two doors (move action each) and the kennel itself to open up, plus the distances involved. Elmo will be covered in blood by the time you return, but won't have yet left the tavern (or at least would not have gone far)
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You're only offered this tower if nobody dies in Encounter 1 and you agree to work for the watch.
Which I'm not sure you manage in encounter1.
Not that your pet shadows can't kill the mouthers in a night attack but if you get confused one of them might manage to bite +grapple you.
I like the 2nd version of encounter 3 better, the elemental is played smarter but has no hope against a shadow and invisibility+movement will cause it to lose track of you once the whirlwind is no longer in play. At 6 intelligence I don't think it is smart enough to run off and return when whirlwind has recharged.
The text of Fell Drain is, "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level." The way that I read this, the feat works like, "Did Creature X take damage from Fell Drain Spell Y? If so, they gain a negative level", not "Wherever the spell mentions "X damage", add "and one negative level"". Thus Fell Drain Magic Missile is great for delevelling five creatures at once (similar to Fell Drain Burning Hands if you're close enough), but can't be used to strip away five levels from a single target in one casting.
Agreed...the other "Fell" things (eg fell weakness) are penalties, don't stack. But as Copper says, such a build might be a cautionary tale about allowing a different ruling into your campaign.
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You're only offered this tower if nobody dies in Encounter 1 and you agree to work for the watch.
Which I'm not sure you manage in encounter1.
Not that your pet shadows can't kill the mouthers in a night attack but if you get confused one of them might manage to bite +grapple you.
Just looked up your char. Summon shadow as SLA. Ok fine. I'll punt since I can't find the rule and say it is a std action.
is summon shadow a std action spell? Most are 1 round spells. This would change encounter 1, although mostly in the commoner body count. Encounter 1 doesn't have a surprise round (although I do have you stand up for free, so I don't have to make up rules for "sitting" state)
It's not a spell. It is a Spell-like Ability. As stated earlier, they are standard actions "normally". The one thing I'm not sure about is what the caster level should be. It says "as Summon Monster" + charisma modifier. I used his caster level, but after rethinking it, maybe I should have used his Master of Shrouds level. That would reduce it by 1. It wouldn't change much. He'd probably just have to burn through more shadows, and would definitely need to rest before going on to the last two encounters.
If you guess wrong on the strength drain, Elmo will spawn as a shadow and need to be rezzed right? As the ray of enfeeble doesn't do str damage (it is a penalty) you aren't in much danger of him getting reduced to zero even on a crit. If you feed your shadow a bit more, he'd be str 1-2 instead of str 8.
I think the Sage said something about things spawned by the MoS's summons not working as normal. Otherwise, you could get a permanent "pet" shadow at level 5 by Commanding one via Rebuke Undead and then start making an army of them. (You'd need something to boost your effective cleric level a bit, but it is doable.)
So your take is that if Elmo has a penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement, and takes enough damage from the shadows to go below 0, he stops at Str 1 (unless the shadows do enough to drop him to 0 even without the Ray)? That's the way I'd think it works too, but it isn't clear.
If so, I'd let the shadow(s) drop him to 1. Hubert still couldn't out grapple him (which is kind of pathetic...) but he could repeatedly trip him until the guard shows up to subdue him. Would that count as a win?
you have debuffed Elmo enough that the guard will eventually be able to subdue him if you help by drawing AOOs for them. A few guys could pile on and pin him (his grapple check is still pretty high even with 8 strength, but can't stand up to multiple attackers. At 1 str he's easier), until they can get a silver weapon from somebody. It's a pretty inelegant solution but would probably serve.
This sounds like a yes to the question above. Ironically, I originally had a silver dagger listed in Hubert's equipment... but took it out during a revision. :P
SU abilities are always std unless it says otherwise.
I can't find the ruling on the spell-like taking normal casting time. I thought it was in the FAQ, but it isn't there. It may be just an interpretation of "normally a std action" and thus it's grey.
I don't think it's grey at all. "Normally a standard action" means its a standard action, unless specified otherwise.
With the updated encounter, Hubert had to use 3 of his 5 shadows. He decides to go and rest in the protected tower that the adventure offers, and finish the next night.
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You're only offered this tower if nobody dies in Encounter 1 and you agree to work for the watch.
Which I'm not sure you manage in encounter1.
What about now, using the strategy in the above dialogue? (Drain him to 1 str, and repeatedly trip him until the watch shows up to subdue him)
Not that your pet shadows can't kill the mouthers in a night attack but if you get confused one of them might manage to bite +grapple you.
Uh... how? Hubert's Will save is +11. He makes the save, and the ability says after you make it once, you don't have to make it again.
I like the 2nd version of encounter 3 better, the elemental is played smarter but has no hope against a shadow and invisibility+movement will cause it to lose track of you once the whirlwind is no longer in play. At 6 intelligence I don't think it is smart enough to run off and return when whirlwind has recharged.
Great. Should I go ahead and paste that into the main post then? Or do you think leaving it with a link is good enough?
So your take is that if he has a penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement, and takes enough damage from the shadows to go below 0, he stops at Str 1 (unless the shadows do enough to drop him to 0 even without the Ray)? That's the way I'd think it works too, but it isn't clear.
If so, I'd let the shadow(s) drop him to 1. Hubert still couldn't out grapple him (which is kind of pathetic...) but he could repeatedly trip him until the guard shows up to subdue him. Would that count as a win?
It counts as a win with zero style points
. You'd score a style point or two if you had a silver weapon to loan.Yes, I'm pretty sure about the take on ray of enfeeble. It says it can never reduce str below one, where str damage changes your base str. The RoE penalty is compared every time str is changed (up or down) so if you drop below the RoE penalty it pins at "1" unless the other damage reduces it to zero withour RoE.
I've seen 100 page arguments about this, but I think the above ruling fits both Rules as Written and Rules as Intended best, and it's a very handy thing for Hubert's build, so any campaign where he's allowed would likely follow that idea anyway
I don't think it's grey at all. "Normally a standard action" means its a standard action, unless specified otherwise.
I've already caved on this, but if the ruling I remember really doesn't exist think the source for the alternative opinion might be the FAQ ruling which said that scrolls (also "normally" std) are actually the real spell casting time if longer than std..
What about now, using the strategy in the above dialogue?
I'd like to see it blow by blow, the one I saw had you moving away and casting.
Uh... how? Hubert's Will save is +11. He makes the save, and the ability says after you make it once, you don't have to make it again..
You could roll a "1" depending on other saving throw activity during the day. The "dice" could break badly, although I think the only saves you rolled were vs whirlwind damage, so maybe not. Also without rest, do you have a way of avoiding the mouthers (do you have another invis spell? etc) This is why things have to be played out though.
Ie, either we stick with what you have in encounter 1, and redo encounter 4 as night attack, or you do encounter 1 in a way that has no deaths, and encounter 4 can stand.
You could roll a "1" depending on other saving throw activity during the day. The "dice" could break badly, although I think the only saves you rolled were vs whirlwind damage, so maybe not. Also without rest, do you have a way of avoiding the mouthers (do you have another invis spell? etc) This is why things have to be played out though.
He has a +18 Hide check at that point, and there is cover nearby. The mouther should never even see him.
Ie, either we stick with what you have in encounter 1, and redo encounter 4 as night attack, or you do encounter 1 in a way that has no deaths, and encounter 4 can stand.
I'll redo encounter 1. I don't want to go through and modify the percentages for the others based on changes in it, though. That's just too much damn work. Ok?
Edit: Oh, and will Elmo stand and try to fight the shadow after Hubert casts Obscuring Mist and eats a full attack on the first round, and then moves away and summons the shadow to attack Elmo on the second round? Or will he go after commoners and ignore the shadow in his face?
The text of Fell Drain is, "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level." The way that I read this, the feat works like, "Did Creature X take damage from Fell Drain Spell Y? If so, they gain a negative level", not "Wherever the spell mentions "X damage", add "and one negative level"". Thus Fell Drain Magic Missile is great for delevelling five creatures at once (similar to Fell Drain Burning Hands if you're close enough), but can't be used to strip away five levels from a single target in one casting.
It's entirely likely that some GMs read it the way you're reading it (just not any GM I've ever played with), and I don't object to seeing how this build goes in the gauntlet, but I do think it's a rather GM-dependent example of an overpowered caster if piling on the neg levels with fell drain magic missiles is the build's primary trick.
the spell damages the foe with a single MM the foe gains a Neg Level, the foe takes damage from the next MM it gains another, etc....
this is how(RAW) the Feat reads...... this is a problem that has since been corrected, with newer feats specifiying that the special Damage or effect is only applied to the First of Multiple attacks...... but Fell Drain does not have this in its description or Errata.... thus it functions as stated
the goal in this exercise is to identify Overpowered Casters.... if this makes this caster Overpowered...
great... we have identified one:D
the spell damages the foe with a single MM the foe gains a Neg Level, the foe takes damage from the next MM it gains another, etc....
this is how(RAW) the Feat reads...... this is a problem that has since been corrected, with newer feats specifiying that the special Damage or effect is only applied to the First of Multiple attacks...... but Fell Drain does not have this in its description or Errata.... thus it functions as stated
the goal in this exercise is to identify Overpowered Casters.... if this makes this caster Overpowered...
:D
The RAW does not say that you deal a negative level for each time you damage it. It just says that you bestow a negative level when a spell damages. It's a state system: Did you deal damage with a spell? Yes. He gets a negative level. It doesn't matter how many times you damaged him, it only matters that you did, indeed, damage him with a single spell. The spell is singular; 1-5 missiles does not matter, since it is only one spell dealing damage.
Otherwise, you could say that flame strike with this ability would also deal two negative levels (once from the fire damage, once from the divine damage). The way the feat is worded is very simple:
If (condition is true) then (get effect)
If ("my spell damaged the enemy" is true) , then (bestow one negative level).
It is not:
For each time (condition is true) then (get effect). That sort of thing is specifically noted (e.g. Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle).
--S
the goal in this exercise is to identify Overpowered Casters.... if this makes this caster Overpowered...
:D
It is about time freaken time.
It is about time freaken time.
Um ...
The example CoDzilla's we have (DMM persistant and Fleshraker) -- when they are buffed ... appear overpowered -- so we have gotten some already.
I am looking forward to seeing how they work in the newest mini-adventure posted.
Edit: Oh, and will Elmo stand and try to fight the shadow after Hubert casts Obscuring Mist and eats a full attack on the first round, and then moves away and summons the shadow to attack Elmo on the second round? Or will he go after commoners and ignore the shadow in his face?
That's a hard call. Elmo's pretty much at the mental level of a wolverine or badger in rage. He'd go after the shadow once it hurt him but would give up eventually for easier prey. Lets say two full attacks into the shadow?
He has a +18 Hide check at that point, and there is cover nearby. The mouther should never even see him.
I'll redo encounter 1. I don't want to go through and modify the percentages for the others based on changes in it, though. That's just too much damn work. Ok?
Agreed. Just to encounter 1. Then we don't have to fuss, the other battles...nothing in here is especially good against shadows. No enemies with magic weapons or DR/magic except for the encounter you diplomacy'd away.
the goal in this exercise is to identify Overpowered Casters.... if this makes this caster Overpowered...
:D
Only if even with the questionable interpretation he still wins the gauntlets.
It's possible to use edge-condition rules and still lose.
This mini-adventure blows chunks ... every encounter is an ambush.
Encounters 1+2 are not ambushes if you eternally fly.
Encounter 3 is not an ambush if you can see in darkness normally.
Encounter 4 is an ambush
Encounter 5 is not an ambush if you can see invisible creatures normally.
Is Master of Shrouds in Libris Mortis different than this?
If not, then wouldn't your
Summon Undead (Sp): At 2nd level and higher, a master of shrouds can summon one or more incorporeal undead creatures a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). This ability is otherwise identical to the summon monster spells, except that a master of shrouds adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) to the duration of the effect.
Ability last for (3 (cleric caster level)+1 (cha bonus) 4 rounds ... right, not 5?
Also, wouldn't they get the +4 str/con bonus, which makes them hit more often?
Secondly ... would
Summon Undead (Sp): At 2nd level and higher, a master of shrouds can summon one or more incorporeal undead creatures a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). This ability is otherwise identical to the summon monster spells, except that a master of shrouds adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) to the duration of the effect.
Does the bolded area mean that this is a 1-round ability (this being an example of the following)
Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Or is the "Identical" talking about how to run the results of the ability?
I finished sending my multi-class character through "Desert Fun" which was not fun. According to this I won 2 out of 5, tied vs the remorhaz (depending on terrain/etc, I might have been able to cheeze flight+enlarge person for the win), and lost 2 horribly.
This mini-adventure blows chunks ... every encounter is an ambush.
Encounters 1+2 are not ambushes if you eternally fly.
Encounter 3 is not an ambush if you can see in darkness normally.
Encounter 4 is an ambush
Encounter 5 is not an ambush if you can see invisible creatures normally.
The only character I ran through it with managed to beat it fairly easily but it manages to break melee monsters pretty bad. Maybe I'll post the build sometime, it would be build #3 for me on this thread though :P
EDIT: Also encounter 1 and 2 are not ambushes (and infact aren't encountered) if you have Darkstalker, without tremorsense they never spot you. To make things more interesting I assumed they were encountered but noted that they should just be bypassed without either side seeing the other.
The golem isn't an ambush the way I read it, it shows up at the end of a 40' hall or something? Don't remember exactly.
5 is another ambush, but the character in question had blindsense so wasn't surprised.
Also, wouldn't they get the +4 str/con bonus, which makes them hit more often?
Shadows don't have str or con score being incorporeal undead.
Ok, here is Encounter 1 redone.
Round 2 summons a shadow: Shadow full (5/5 rounds)
Round 3 Shadow full (4/5 rounds)
Round 4 Shadow full (3/5 rnds)
Round 5 Shadow full (2/5 rnds)
Round 6 Shadow full (1/5 rnds)
Round 7 The shadow moves and swings at Elmo again (640/700 concealment, miss), then vanishes.
Your 5 round shadow lasted 6 rounds. Looks like it was running on energizer batteries ...
Shadows don't have str or con score being incorporeal undead.
Oh ... good call. Thanks.
EDIT: Also encounter 1 and 2 are not ambushes (and infact aren't encountered) if you have Darkstalker, without tremorsense they never spot you. To make things more interesting I assumed they were encountered but noted that they should just be bypassed without either side seeing the other.
Ah, thanks ... thats another way to avoid the encounter (over than fly).
The golem isn't an ambush the way I read it, it shows up at the end of a 40' hall or something? Don't remember exactly.
You go from normal daylight to pitch black. If you do not have a source of light, you cannot see is what I was referring to.
Edit: Wait. Casting Defensively doesn't provoke AoOs. Unless every single player had the Mage Slayer feat (and I'm guessing they didn't, as IIRC it requires a BAB of +3 or something) this Wizard could have just laughed in their face with his +28 concentration check, then proceeded to kill them all.
my dm and me proved that 3 lvl 3 martial characters and a bard can take out a lvl 20 wizard in close quarters combat, even more so if one of the characters are a rogue or monk, flank and use sneak attack with the rogue, and the monk to get close so the wizard can't get away long enouh to do ANY spells at all because spellcasting gives you an attack of opportunity, and a monk hits kind of hard, a barbarian raging would work better though for the damage.
Level 20 ... assuming very minimal protection ...
AC: 10+9 (twilight mithril chain shirt +5) +6 (mithril buckler) +4 (amulet of natural armor) +6 (assorted dex item/book) = ac 35 ...
How are these characters hitting the level 20 character? Natural 20's?
Did the wizard forget to cast defensively? (dc 24 for level 9 spell. Max ranks in concentration = 23 -- auto success assuming the level 20 character has at least a con of a 10).
Dan, the Wannabe Druid
Human Cleric 2/Wizard 1/Cleric x
The x can be replaced with any number, because rarely will Dan be doing anything. His minions are the show, so he would remain largely static from levels 3-20. Sure, he might develop other tricks, but the minions are his strong point.
Note: I replaced the Evil domain with an item because people were complaining.
Domains: Summoner, Death (Worships Wee Jas)
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 8
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 8
Feats (2 flaws):
Domain Focus (Summoner) (H)
//note. 1+2(summoner)+1(DF)+1(ruby skull)=5, enough for the next two feats. This CL really only applies to Summon
//Monster X spellsbut what the hey.
Craft Wondrous Item (flaw 1)
Improved Initiative (flaw 2)
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (level 1).
Craft Construct (level 3)
Skills:
Craft (Leatherworking) maxed
Knowledge (Nature, Religion, whatever else helps me identify monsters) maxed
Spells:
Items:
Ruby Skull of Wee Jas (CC)
Wand of Invisibility
Wand of Repair Light Damage
The x can be replaced with any number, because rarely will Dan be doing anything. His minions are the show, so he would remain largely static from levels 3-20. Sure, he might develop other tricks, but the minions are his strong point.
Note: I replaced the Evil domain with an item because people were complaining.
Domains: Summoner, Death (Worships Wee Jas)
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 8
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 8
Feats (2 flaws):
Domain Focus (Summoner) (H)
//note. 1+2(summoner)+1(DF)+1(ruby skull)=5, enough for the next two feats. This CL really only applies to Summon
//Monster X spellsbut what the hey.
Craft Wondrous Item (flaw 1)
Improved Initiative (flaw 2)
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (level 1).
Craft Construct (level 3)
Skills:
Craft (Leatherworking) maxed
Knowledge (Nature, Religion, whatever else helps me identify monsters) maxed
Spells:
Items:
Ruby Skull of Wee Jas (CC)
Wand of Invisibility
Wand of Repair Light Damage
Note, even though these effigies look like normal birds (DC 20 spot check to tell otherwise), they don't get surprise rounds because every monster on the plane has been warned ahead of time that all ravens are in fact deadly robots sent to kill.
Green
I cast invisibility on myself, sending the Nevermores in front of me.
Initiative: Nevermores (+10), me (+8), trolls (+7)
Round1
Nevermore One Flyby Attacks Troll A. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Troll A takes 71 points of damage, and Nevermore One is about 60 feet away. Troll A has -24 hp, and dies.
Nevermore Two Flyby Attacks Troll B. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Troll B takes 71 points of damage, and Nevermore Two is about 60 feet away. Troll B has -24 hp, and dies.
Success
Resources used: One charge on Wand of Invisibility.
Initiative: Nevermores (+10), me (+8), trolls (+7)
Round1
Nevermore One Flyby Attacks Troll A. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Troll A takes 71 points of damage, and Nevermore One is about 60 feet away. Troll A has -24 hp, and dies.
Nevermore Two Flyby Attacks Troll B. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Troll B takes 71 points of damage, and Nevermore Two is about 60 feet away. Troll B has -24 hp, and dies.
Success
Resources used: One charge on Wand of Invisibility.
my dm and me proved that 3 lvl 3 martial characters and a bard can take out a lvl 20 wizard in close quarters combat, even more so if one of the characters are a rogue or monk, flank and use sneak attack with the rogue, and the monk to get close so the wizard can't get away long enouh to do ANY spells at all because spellcasting gives you an attack of opportunity, and a monk hits kind of hard, a barbarian raging would work better though for the damage.
As the people above have already posted your example is laughable. This is just a +1 post.
Even assuming the wizard had no contingencies, was rooted in place and hell just for fun had used all his expendables and spells fighting a god just before these 3 level 3 martial characters show up what is preventing the wizard from simply picking up a chair, spending a round breaking off a leg to use a club and beating these upstarts within an inch of their life?
Keep in mind that even assuming the wizard has a 12 con and no con boosting items, no spells no nothing he has 71 hp. Probably roughly what the martial characters have.
Also keep in mind the wizard without spells or items has a +10 bab. That means the wizard will be iterating with his chair leg and will likely have a better ab than any of the martial characters.
So ignoring the wizards spells, items etc the wizard will flat beat down your level 3 party. How is it exactly that you figured the wizard would lose? Maybe forgot to put points in concentration and tried to cast without defensive so they could interrupt his spells? Really this puzzles me.
Question:
Is Master of Shrouds in Libris Mortis different than this?
If not, then wouldn't your
Ability last for (3 (cleric caster level)+1 (cha bonus) 4 rounds ... right, not 5?
For some reason, I was thinking he had a Cha of 14... This character went through several versions before I finally posted it. Yeah, they would last either 4 (using what you did), or 3 (if his caster level for the ability = MoS levels). He would also only have 4 of them per day, not 5...
Does the bolded area mean that this is a 1-round ability (this being an example of the following)
Or is the "Identical" talking about how to run the results of the ability?
I figured it meant how to run the results of the ability. If consensus is different, I can change how I run it.
Your 5 round shadow lasted 6 rounds. Looks like it was running on energizer batteries ...
Oops. Thanks. These damn fights are so long and complicated, it is easy to make mistakes.
my dm and me proved that 3 lvl 3 martial characters and a bard can take out a lvl 20 wizard in close quarters combat, even more so if one of the characters are a rogue or monk, flank and use sneak attack with the rogue, and the monk to get close so the wizard can't get away long enouh to do ANY spells at all because spellcasting gives you an attack of opportunity, and a monk hits kind of hard, a barbarian raging would work better though for the damage.
Yeah, they might beat a retarded blind wizard who is out of spells and sleeping in an AMF. Is this some kind of troll/joke post?
Yeah, they might be a retarded blind wizard who is out of spells and sleeping in an AMF. Is this some kind of troll/joke post?
That or he is the wizard who gets beat by his goon squad of level 3s.
On the other hand I had to respond anyway because its dangerous to let things that stupid go unrefuted just because someone might take them seriously. That and I find the mental image of an old man breaking the leg off a chair and giving the goons a beatdown.
Before adventuring, Dan casts Fly, then Summon Monster III. From the Air, he attacks his summoned monster with Scorching Ray. He repeats until he has 160 xp. He then spends 6000 gp and 160 xp to create two Effigies, Thing One and Thing Two, two identical copies of each other.
Um ... um .... um ...
First issue ... is the above ... you do not gain XP for killing things you summon -- the better/easier way of doing it -- is to ignore the 160xp, like the other people who craft magic items do ... (160xp is a rounding error at this level).
The two characters that had to start out at a lower level (4) were because one had a LA+1 template ... and the other was that "you die/are raised as undead" thing ...
I have no idea what an effigy is or what the rules are for this ... so I will be silent for the rest of it ...
Um ... um .... um ...
First issue ... is the above ... you do not gain XP for killing things you summon -- the better/easier way of doing it -- is to ignore the 160xp, like the other people who craft magic items do ... (160xp is a rounding error at this level).
The two characters that had to start out at a lower level (4) were because one had a LA+1 template ... and the other was that "you die/are raised as undead" thing ...
I have no idea what an effigy is or what the rules are for this ... so I will be silent for the rest of it ...
Err, changed. I guess I'll just ignore the XP.
You sound like you have a truckload of issues. Could you post a few more? Or are you just awed at the 'teh awesome' of effigies? ;)
I finished sending my multi-class character through "Desert Fun" which was not fun. .
It's more fun if you are level 7. Characters are more capable of coping with all the ambushes then.
Ah, thanks ... thats another way to avoid the encounter (over than fly).
You go from normal daylight to pitch black. If you do not have a source of light, you cannot see is what I was referring to.
What are you doing without a light source? You're going underground, even if the doorway is funny.
Golems are not exactly quiet either. It's very unlikely to get surprise even if you don't have a way of making a light.
I figured it meant how to run the results of the ability.
With that wording I believe this is an example of a spell-like that takes 1 round to cast.
Err, changed. I guess I'll just ignore the XP.
You sound like you have a truckload of issues. Could you post a few more? Or are you just awed at the 'teh awesome' of effigies? ;)
Ah -- found them .... from Complete Arcane.
How are you controlling them "An effigy's creator can command it if the effigy is within 60 feet and can see and hear it."? You are invisible -- right?
Or was the command you gave it -- walk around me and destroy anything that moves? (or something similar)
Also ... can you post a level 5 version of this character, so that people can see how it behaves at that level?
my dm and me proved that 3 lvl 3 martial characters and a bard can take out a lvl 20 wizard in close quarters combat, even more so if one of the characters are a rogue or monk, flank and use sneak attack with the rogue, and the monk to get close so the wizard can't get away long enouh to do ANY spells at all because spellcasting gives you an attack of opportunity, and a monk hits kind of hard, a barbarian raging would work better though for the damage.
Ok, my contribution.
The wizard is rich enough that a mithril great fortification buckler or a lesser cloak of displacement or a robe of eyes is easily affordable. Not to mention permanent see invisible. He won't take sneak attacks, he probably can't even be critted.
The passive defenses on a wizard will include at minimum greater mage armor, and +1 mithril buckler. He'll have at minimum +6 dex item and +4 dex book because of importance of initiative. Assuming 12 dex to start, he's armor class 24. Good luck hitting him with L3 characters. (he probably is much higher AC than that). You'll hit easier when he's flatfooted, but he'll have triple digit hitpoints, probably closer to 200 when temp hitpoints are figured in.
I don't think there exist any L20 wizards that don't have a ring of freedom of movement so grappling is out.
So even with mage slayer, he can cast with impunity because they won't hit him. Even if they do, he can likely make the concentration check against the kind of damage they do. A L3 barbarian with full power attack, greatsword and 22 strength is only going to do 20 damage on average (concentration DC 30+spell level). Your typical L3 rogue, even if he can get sneak attack off is only doing 10-15 damage. Typical concentration skill for a wizard at level 20 is +30. (23 ranks, starting constitution 14, +6 con item, +4 book)
The one fly in the ointment is silence. If the wizard has not prepped a silent dimension door that day, he's likely still got a rod of metamagic silence in his haversack and is capable of casting something useful (or can just fly out of the silence with his overland flight). The usual way to test the counterspelling ability of an enemy is to try a quickened spell first and see what happens before unloading your main spell.
It's really quite broken if the DM allows other templates to be added to it, because the cost for the effigy is only based on the number of hit dice and size (or maybe just size... I can't remember, and I am still at work).
--S
Edit: Turns out it was Complete Arcane, p153
Hubert has both Bluff and Disguise +9, so he fakes peacebonds for his weapons and if they are spotted, tries to talk his way out of it. It doesn't really help him much, as he sucks with weapons anyway... but he's sneaky and paranoid.
I'm going to change his prepared spells and gear around a bit to better represent what he might use while adventuring with companions instead of solo, and also to represent what he's learned (and I have) from his earlier adventures.
I'm also going to say that he starts with the zombie griffon from the "alternate" mini-adventure. He'll either stable it, or leave it outside town, depending on if they allow undead "mounts" in town or not. He could try to disguise it as a living griffon, but the DC is probably too high. Although, it has no wounds on it, as it was killed by a shadow. So maybe not... especially if he puts an Extended Gentle Repose on it every few days in his off-time.
Show
Zombie griffon, large undead
HD 14d12+14 (108)
Initiative +1
Speed 30, fly 80 (clumsy)
AC 19 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 nat), touch 10, ff 18
BAB/Grapple +7/+16
Attack: Bite +12 (2d6+7)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +9
Feats: Toughness
SQ: DR 5/slashing, immunities
Stats: Str 20, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Prepared Cleric Spells (CL3):
0th No Light (BovD), Detect Magic, Resistance, Read Magic
1st: Unseen Servant, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Detect Secret Doors (D)
2nd: Eyes of the Zombie (BoVD), Resist Energy, Invisibility (D)
Equipment: He gets rid of one scroll of Command Undead, and gets a scroll of Lesser Restoration instead. He gets rid of one each of his alchemist's fire, holy water, and acid vials, and gets a potion/oil of Remove Scent. He had a Wand Chamber added to his shield, and the Sanctified property so it can act as his Holy Symbol (+150 gp). To pay for that, he got rid of one scroll of Summon Swarm. His new equipment list and wealth looks like the following:
Equipment (8980/9000): morning star (8), +1 chainshirt (1250), +1 Sanctified darkwood heavy shield w/Wand Chamber (1407), MW composite longbow + 50 arrows (411), 1 vials holy water (25 gp), 1 alchemist's fires (20), 2 flasks of acid (20 gp), Wand of Faith Healing (10 charges, 150 gp), 1 scrolls of Command Undead (150), 1 scroll of Summon Swarm (150), 1 scroll of Spectral Hand (150), 2 scrolls False Life (300), 1 scroll of Desecrate (150, USED), 1 scroll of See Invisible (150), 1 scroll of Lesser Restoration (150), one CL 5 scrolls of Animate Dead (375+500onyx, can animate 20 HD, USED), 2 scrolls of Unseen Servant (50), 1 scroll of Silence (150), 2 scrolls Invisibility (300), 2 scrolls Favorable Sacrifice (CL 5 with 250 gp sacrifice included, 1250 gp total), 1 potion of Remove Scent (50), 2 tanglefoot bags (100 gp), 4 Wooden Holy Symbols (4), Disguise kit (50), Everburning Torch with tight cap (110), MW tools for Hide, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Concentration (200), Oil of Magic Fang (50), Elixir of Hiding (250, +10 comp. to Hide for 1 hr), Pearl of Power 1 (1000), other cheap adventuring gear (50 ft. silk rope, candles, chalk, paper, pen, ink, a couple of days rations, small mirror, waterskins, etc, all 50 gold or so).
Zombie griffon, large undead
HD 14d12+14 (108)
Initiative +1
Speed 30, fly 80 (clumsy)
AC 19 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 nat), touch 10, ff 18
BAB/Grapple +7/+16
Attack: Bite +12 (2d6+7)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +9
Feats: Toughness
SQ: DR 5/slashing, immunities
Stats: Str 20, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Prepared Cleric Spells (CL3):
0th No Light (BovD), Detect Magic, Resistance, Read Magic
1st: Unseen Servant, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Detect Secret Doors (D)
2nd: Eyes of the Zombie (BoVD), Resist Energy, Invisibility (D)
Equipment: He gets rid of one scroll of Command Undead, and gets a scroll of Lesser Restoration instead. He gets rid of one each of his alchemist's fire, holy water, and acid vials, and gets a potion/oil of Remove Scent. He had a Wand Chamber added to his shield, and the Sanctified property so it can act as his Holy Symbol (+150 gp). To pay for that, he got rid of one scroll of Summon Swarm. His new equipment list and wealth looks like the following:
Equipment (8980/9000): morning star (8), +1 chainshirt (1250), +1 Sanctified darkwood heavy shield w/Wand Chamber (1407), MW composite longbow + 50 arrows (411), 1 vials holy water (25 gp), 1 alchemist's fires (20), 2 flasks of acid (20 gp), Wand of Faith Healing (10 charges, 150 gp), 1 scrolls of Command Undead (150), 1 scroll of Summon Swarm (150), 1 scroll of Spectral Hand (150), 2 scrolls False Life (300), 1 scroll of Desecrate (150, USED), 1 scroll of See Invisible (150), 1 scroll of Lesser Restoration (150), one CL 5 scrolls of Animate Dead (375+500onyx, can animate 20 HD, USED), 2 scrolls of Unseen Servant (50), 1 scroll of Silence (150), 2 scrolls Invisibility (300), 2 scrolls Favorable Sacrifice (CL 5 with 250 gp sacrifice included, 1250 gp total), 1 potion of Remove Scent (50), 2 tanglefoot bags (100 gp), 4 Wooden Holy Symbols (4), Disguise kit (50), Everburning Torch with tight cap (110), MW tools for Hide, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Concentration (200), Oil of Magic Fang (50), Elixir of Hiding (250, +10 comp. to Hide for 1 hr), Pearl of Power 1 (1000), other cheap adventuring gear (50 ft. silk rope, candles, chalk, paper, pen, ink, a couple of days rations, small mirror, waterskins, etc, all 50 gold or so).
--S
Castys tactics
:D
Ah -- found them .... from Complete Arcane.
How are you controlling them "An effigy's creator can command it if the effigy is within 60 feet and can see and hear it."? You are invisible -- right?
Or was the command you gave it -- walk around me and destroy anything that moves? (or something similar)
Also ... can you post a level 5 version of this character, so that people can see how it behaves at that level?
Well, I've imprinted a few simple tactics in the Effigies' heads, like: 'If you are facing one foe, use such-and-such,' 'If you are outnumbered use such-and-such,' etc. I don't think I have mind control, though. I just say to them: 'Kill the Chraal' as a free action and then they do the rest. The sample text has them distinguishing elves from other creatures, so they have some measure of judgement.
Anyway, at level 5 this guy isn't anything special, as he can't create effigies yet (working on it, though - I just need some cheap CL boosters around level 1). I guess he could use Fly-n-Die, but really that isn't too different from other entries. From level 6 up, though, everything this guy wants dead is dead.
EDIT: I think I can get constructs at level 5.
Summoner Doman Cleric, DF(Summoner) at level 1, gives me CL4 with a few spells... Not enough though...
EDIT2: M.W. disproves this. See below. I compensate. See farther below. In fact, ignore this whole post, as I don't communicate any useful information in it.
I just say to them: 'Kill the Chraal' as a free action and then they do the rest. The sample text has them distinguishing elves from other creatures, so they have some measure of judgement.
But you cannot give them commands when you are invisible ... so how do you do this? And if you are visible ... then you can be defeated by the enemies ...
The text for effigies also says "If uncommanded, an effigy usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, but it will defend itself if attacked."
Since you are invisible, it is uncommanded, so ... these "tactics" you instill ... cannot work, as it will follow the last thing said. And since both your effigy's init bonuses are +1 ... they will frequently lose initiative ... leaving your character to be killed (as it is the only visible target). Unless ... you are talking about
Pre-encounter
I use invisibility on us
Surprise Round:
I drop my invisibility spell (standard) and tell them to kill the enemy (free)
However ... how are the two invisible effigies traveling with you while you are invisible -- are you holding hands or something? what I mean is, why do you guys not get separated?
I just say to them: 'Kill the Chraal' as a free action and then they do the rest. The sample text has them distinguishing elves from other creatures, so they have some measure of judgement.
But the effigy text says
They draw no conclusions on their own and follow orders explicitly with no regard for their own safety.
What part of the above gives them a measure of judgement? They can distinguish between creature types (elves) just as well as the "alarm" spell.
Lastly (for now), at level 5, your character is very sub-par compared to the other casters, as you have no offensive spell, except for summon monster 3, which (for you) is a full round to cast ... so you cannot use "save-or-die" while flying ...
After playing around with this character, I think he'd be alot of fun to use in a real game. He's not invulnerable, but if you play him like a mage (hide, try to avoid getting beaten up at all costs, and use your spells), he's quite survivable. He has decent out of combat skills (Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, and others with the right cleric buffs, which he can prepare if given notice), and in combat he is very good at disabling opponents via Strength damage and penalties.
Zombies he animates make decent "meat shields" vs most things, and can beat some encounters on their own. I haven't used this yet, but using a small zombie + Eyes of the Zombie would allow him to effectively scout areas risk free, also. Or he could "possess" a more powerful skeleton or zombie, and control it to go fight encounters, while his real body stays safely at "home".
In a just a few levels, he will be able to buff himself via Persistent Spell so that he can enter combat directly if he feels like it, also. I also plan to add Magic Jar to his spell list via Divine Magician, which can potentially buff his combat potential immensely. He can get into combat now if he has to, but he's not particularly effective.
can you add Casty the Spellcaster to the list of casters
Castys tactics
:D
I was reading your tactics and I think you made a mistake. I noticed that you said that the troglodyte has +8 natural armor and the srd says +6.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm
Edit: Noticed a minor error in Hubert. MoS requires 5 ranks in spellcraft. So I moved them from Knowledge (Arcana).
can you add Casty the Spellcaster to the list of casters
Castys tactics
:D
I believe that it is extremely debatable that is how Fell Drain works. If what you propose is true (multiple hits all give negative levels) then you've just obsoleted Enervation (4th), and often Energy Drain (9th) with a single 3rd level slot (Better range, always hits, deals damage to boot and probably does more negative levels).
"You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."
Looks to me like you only get 1 negative level even if hit by 5 fell magic missiles. The spell dealt damage, that it dealt it in multiple "hits" or "chunks" seems irrelevant.
I believe that it is extremely debatable that is how Fell Drain works. If what you propose is true (multiple hits all give negative levels) then you've just obsoleted Enervation (4th), and often Energy Drain (9th) with a single 3rd level slot (Better range, always hits, deals damage to boot and probably does more negative levels).
"You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."
Looks to me like you only get 1 negative level even if hit by 5 fell magic missiles. The spell dealt damage, that it dealt it in multiple "hits" or "chunks" seems irrelevant.
I must agree with you. One thing would be if you hit 5 different targets with your spell (that way there would be a total of 5 negative levels, one for each enemy). Another thing is hitting the same target with the same spell. It just feels wrong.
But you cannot give them commands when you are invisible ... so how do you do this? And if you are visible ... then you can be defeated by the enemies ...
Okay. Remedied by the following command:
Move directly ahead at normal walking speed. When danger is detected, stop walking. Unless I give another command, attack and kill the danger.
The text for effigies also says "If uncommanded, an effigy usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, but it will defend itself if attacked."
Since you are invisible, it is uncommanded, so ... these "tactics" you instill ... cannot work, as it will follow the last thing said. And since both your effigy's init bonuses are +1 ... they will frequently lose initiative ... leaving your character to be killed (as it is the only visible target). Unless ... you are talking about
Pre-encounter
I use invisibility on us
Surprise Round:
I drop my invisibility spell (standard) and tell them to kill the enemy (free)
However ... how are the two invisible effigies traveling with you while you are invisible -- are you holding hands or something? what I mean is, why do you guys not get separated?
But the effigy text says
What part of the above gives them a measure of judgement? They can distinguish between creature types (elves) just as well as the "alarm" spell.
Fix'd by my altered instruction
Lastly (for now), at level 5, your character is very sub-par compared to the other casters, as you have no offensive spell, except for summon monster 3, which (for you) is a full round to cast ... so you cannot use "save-or-die" while flying ...
Actually, not any more. Check out the new build. I now can make Effigies at level 3, so at every level except 1&2 I destroy everything in my path. Even at levels 1&2 I have long-lasting Summon spells.
Diatribe on qualification
My CL calculation for Summon Monster I (Fiendish Rat) is as follows:
1 (Cleric 1)
2 (Summoner Domain)
1 (Domain Focus [Summoner])
1 (Evil Domain)
5 (Total)
This is enough for getting the feats. Yes, this CL is only for a few spells. A Fighter 4/Wizard 1 with P.S. has a CL of 5 and could take CWD. This isn't any different, to my knowledge.
1 (Cleric 1)
2 (Summoner Domain)
1 (Domain Focus [Summoner])
1 (Evil Domain)
5 (Total)
This is enough for getting the feats. Yes, this CL is only for a few spells. A Fighter 4/Wizard 1 with P.S. has a CL of 5 and could take CWD. This isn't any different, to my knowledge.
I think favorable sacrifice is a near "must have" for any caster that isn't doing the high AC thing. Nobody's managed without one or the other.
I'm starting Bela through....he managed the first encounter at CR5 pretty cleanly, but got the snot beaten out of him in encounter 2 (although it took damn near every consumable and spell his other party members had) and nearly died due to a last second crit. Without that crit he might have healed himself out of trouble and beaten them down but it's unclear. The ranger still had a lot of shillelagh left and would still have had a +1/+1 bardsong backing him up, plus one more scroll of glitterdust. (It's not every day you have to suck up 2 alch fire, 6 flasks of oil, 8 acid flasks, 2 tanglefoot bags, some dog bites and 6 javelins before getting critted with a shillelagh....sheesh...3 touch attacks a round backed with bardsong while you are stuck to the ground with tanglefoot bag and in silence field is NASTY. Bela is SORRY ALREADY for bonking Elmo on the head with his flail!)
When I have the whole thing I'll post and link to it. I actually thought he'd have more trouble with the werebear, but knowing silver works from the start and the fact it was playing dumb due to berserk made a big difference. Bela's plan for the elemental is to ride away on his mount if he escapes suction on round 1 and see if he can avoid being sucked up that way..using translocation+enlarge if the tactic fails. (he's not clear on the limits of whirlwind, he's learning as he goes). I also did something nobody else did...guys..you're in a city and you're often working for the watch. Even though it is late in the day you can restock consumables if you earned any money (eg, selling Elmo's axe).
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DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be broken - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Masterwork Full plate: DC 20. 16500 sp. Voluntarily adding 10 - 30 - 900 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
3100 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 18 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star with wand chamber: 1080 silver. DC 14 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in two weeks
Masterwork Fullplate (550 gp)
Masterwork Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (103.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star with Wand Chamber (36 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
3 tools: Bow Making, Weapon Smithing, Armor Smithing, (150 gp)
Bracer of Quick Strike (1400 gp)
Least Fire Resist Crystal (500 gp) (Equipped)
Least Cold Resist Crystal (500 gp)
Gauntlet of Energy Transformation (1000 gold)
Non Expendables Cost: 8252.8 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 20 charges (300 gp) (In Morningstar)
Wand of Blade of Blood 20 charges (300 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
Consumable Gold Spent: 600 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8852.8 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Still use Deathknell to Hijack CL for buffing.
Level 3 Spell: Channelled Divine Shield
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC).
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers.
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Still use Deathknell to Hijack CL for buffing.
Level 2 Spell: Substitute Domain to gain Purification Domain
Level 3 Domain Slot: Recitation for +3 to attack, ac, saves.
Dismiss substitute domain to regain 4 turn attempts.
Level 2 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +2 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR.
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist).
Spells Remaining
5 0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
4+1 d 1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction*3
3+1 d 2- Augery (domain),
2+1 d 3- Footsteps of the Divine, Extended Hand of Divinity
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 24, Touch 14, FF 24 (10 base + 8 armor + 2 shield + 1 dex + 3 luck)
Saves: Fort: Base +4, Ability +3, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 12
Ref: Base +1, Ability +1, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 7
Will: Base +4, Ability +3, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 12
BAB: 3
Attack: BAB +3, Str +3, Luck +3 = +9, for 2d12+3 ice damage, possible 3d6 from blade of blood.
Attack Ranged: BAB +3, Dex +1, Luck +3 = +7, for 1d8 damage.
Init: +1
DMM Persist Cleric, Human
5th level
HP: 8+4.5*4+3*5 +5 (Trait)=41 hp
25 point buy
STR: 14 - 6 points
DEX: 11 - 3 points
CON: 14 - 6 points
INT: 8 - 2 = 6 - 0 points
Wis: 15 - 8 points, +1 leveling = 16
Cha: 10 - 2 points.
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Domain Feat: (Planning) Extend Spell
Domain Feat: (Undeath) Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw Feat: Extra Turning
Flaw 1: Shaky
Flaw 2: Pathetic (Intellignece)
Trait: Slow (Speed 15 feet, +1 HP/level)
Level 1 Feat: Persist Spell
Human Feat: DMM Persist Spell
Level 3 Feat: Extra Turning
Base turn attempts: 21 (4*4 Extra turning+3 base+2 Symbol)
Gear:
Items that are reasonable, not consumables.
In this version, I do crafting. Here’s how.
This is important, because it demonstrates another aspect of how casters can be broken - non combat ability.
1) Good Morning. I wake up, pray.
Spell Set up: Guidance +1, Moment of Insight +11, (boostrapping with Death Knell), the Spell Unseen Crafter (Races of Earth, Owl's Wisdom to Hijack for a +5 and Take 10, Interfaith blessing will give me 1 more, so and a masterwork tool gives +2. That's too many second level spells, but for craft days, we can put second level in 3rd level slots.
Bonuses: Insight, Take 10, Ability Score (Wisdom in place because of spell) competence, luck, moral.
11+10+5+2+1+1 = 30. Perfect - the exact DC I need to make everything I want. Slowly, but I'll re-dress the crafting so it is legal.
Masterwork Full plate: DC 20. 16500 sp. Voluntarily adding 10 - 30 - 900 sp per week = 18 weeks of crafting.
3100 sp (With Wand Chamber and Sanctified from Dungeonscape) and a DC of 18 (10+2+2+2 for Sanctified and Wand Chamber) - Add 10 to the DC - 780 SP done per week, so 3 weeks of crafting.
Light Crossbow and Bolts: 15, 400 silver: Add 10 - 750 silver - done in 1 week.
Morning Star with wand chamber: 1080 silver. DC 14 - Add 10 - 660 silver - done in two weeks
Masterwork Fullplate (550 gp)
Masterwork Large Sanctified Shield (Dungeonsape page 34) with Wand Chamber (103.4 gp)
Light Crossbow + 50 bolts (13.4 gp)
Morning Star with Wand Chamber (36 gp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1000 gp)
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser (3000 gp)
3 tools: Bow Making, Weapon Smithing, Armor Smithing, (150 gp)
Bracer of Quick Strike (1400 gp)
Least Fire Resist Crystal (500 gp) (Equipped)
Least Cold Resist Crystal (500 gp)
Gauntlet of Energy Transformation (1000 gold)
Non Expendables Cost: 8252.8 gp.
Items that would be bought aware that I am a solo adventurer:
Wand of Faith Healing 20 charges (300 gp) (In Morningstar)
Wand of Blade of Blood 20 charges (300 gp) (As a swift action, now) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958324
Consumable Gold Spent: 600 gp
Total Gold Spent: 8852.8 gp
Remaining: Clothes, food, spell components and foci, etc.
AC: 10+8+2 =20, touch 10, FF 20
Saves: 4/1/4 base, 6/1/7 ability mods.
BAB: 3
Skills: 4+1+1+1+1 = 8. 5 knowledge religion, 3 concentration.
Init: +0
Buffing up:
Day 1:
Still use Deathknell to Hijack CL for buffing.
Level 3 Spell: Channelled Divine Shield
Level 3 Spell: Ice Axe (SpC).
Level 2 Spell: Balor Nimbus (SpC) - Fire Damage for grapplers.
I use the lesser rod of extend on each of those.
Day 2:
Still use Deathknell to Hijack CL for buffing.
Level 2 Spell: Substitute Domain to gain Purification Domain
Level 3 Domain Slot: Recitation for +3 to attack, ac, saves.
Dismiss substitute domain to regain 4 turn attempts.
Level 2 Spell: Abyssal Might (BoVD) - +2 STR/+2Con/+2Dex/+2SR.
Level 1 Spell: Night Shield (SPC) (last persist).
Spells Remaining
5 0-Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic*2, Resistence
4+1 d 1-4+1d - Domain: Detect Undead, Conviction*3
3+1 d 2- Augery (domain),
2+1 d 3- Footsteps of the Divine, Extended Hand of Divinity
Buffed Stat block:
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 6
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
HP 46:
AC: 24, Touch 14, FF 24 (10 base + 8 armor + 2 shield + 1 dex + 3 luck)
Saves: Fort: Base +4, Ability +3, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 12
Ref: Base +1, Ability +1, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 7
Will: Base +4, Ability +3, Resistance +2, Luck +3 - 12
BAB: 3
Attack: BAB +3, Str +3, Luck +3 = +9, for 2d12+3 ice damage, possible 3d6 from blade of blood.
Attack Ranged: BAB +3, Dex +1, Luck +3 = +7, for 1d8 damage.
Init: +1
You have a "surprise" round in which to act while it approaches. Still, you won without using it so it doesn't change anything.
As I stated I think 20 pages ago or so its pretty clear to me that melee at best breaks even at the level 5-7 range. That leaves a max of 4 levels of melee advantage that is easily compensated for by the unquestioned dominance of casters of any stripe once they have 9th level spells. (Not conceding that they don't dominate long before that but I can't imagine anyone arguing melee vs 9th level spells).
Couple possible issues with your fights.
Encounter 2:
1) Is the ice axe a slashing weapon? (to scrape off the goo)
2) Why can't one of the bards cast another charm person? I cannot see two bards each singing with inspirational boost -- knowing that they do not stack.
Encounter 3:
1) Why do you get more saves after you are picked up (round 4)? I must have misread it ... as I didn't see anything that lists new saves after getting picked up.
2) The FAQ gives a great bit of information about falling speed.
Off the top of my head, I’d say that anything up to 50 or 60 feet is clearly too fast to react to (barring a readied action, of course), and anything that approaches 250 feet or more should probably allow characters some chance to react, but that’s purely a personal opinion.
3) How does your 5' reach character ready an action to attack the elemental with a 15' reach? Is your readied action "I attack his hand when his hand gets close?" Is this legal? Per FAQ, it is a possible houserule to make an AoO when you go not threaten ... is this the rationale -- or is there a rule that I am ignorant of?
4) How does your 1/round level CL1 blade of blood last for the round you activate the wand as well as the following round?
I also did something nobody else did...guys..you're in a city and you're often working for the watch. Even though it is late in the day you can restock consumables if you earned any money (eg, selling Elmo's axe).
Um ... would your character normally sell a party members equipment if the DM had him go crazy?
I used 1 potion of enlarge person for the fight with elmo ... and used no consumables during the fight with the bard/ranger ...
How much restocking did I need to do?
My CL calculation for Summon Monster I (Fiendish Rat) is as follows:
1 (Cleric 1)
2 (Summoner Domain)
1 (Domain Focus [Summoner])
1 (Evil Domain)
5 (Total)
Question:
Why is Evil domain helping your CL? Per SRD:
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Wouldn't this mean that the evil domain only helps the CL when it is cast? At no other time would it be higher. Does this still count?
Also ... did you fix the issue where you are invisible, so the effigies do not know where you are? (i.e. do you walk hand-in-hand?)
Alright, since a “normal day” where the character is unaware that dangerous encounters are to be found is the name of the game now, here’s this character on a day where he isn’t planning to solo dragons or anything else of the type, and with spell purchases disallowed. (Still isn’t mentioned on the first page)
Not bad but there are a few issues.
FAQ talks about falling speed. Pretty much you can fall any distance instantly barring feather fall. 6 seconds is a LONG time at 32ft/second accelleration. You don't get a round before you hit. You drop on their turn and take damage if you can't prevent it. (in real world physics, a 200' drop is less than 4 seconds. you fall over 1000' in a round)
This is true of pit traps. It's true of being dropped from air elemental.
What is this death knell trick for caster level. Are you buying a bag of gerbils or something?
I'm also not sure what the point of the mundane crafting is. You're increasing your gold supply for gear?
The rangers toss their salvos before sending the dog in. They don't need precise shot in the first round. (and that's why they don't have it...most of the time this build isn't shooting at stuff in melee or can hit it anyway).
I didn't go over it closely, I'll wait till you redo the elemental encounter at least. But it looks pretty solid.
Um ... would your character normally sell a party members equipment if the DM had him go crazy?
Yeah, actually he would. He's chaotic neutral and thinks the lawful good werebear was something of a prig.
His attitude is one reason I like him for solo adventures.
Also one more round and the bear would have killed him. He's kind of ****** off.
You'll note he loots the other two party members later, although he does give the bodies back to the city guard in case they had a ressurection fund.
The elemental encounter was a very near thing and he was perhaps unwise to push on to encounters 4-5 without resting, but it worked out ok.
Here's Bela's CR5 full moon. He won't attempt CR7 without being CR7.
Full moon CR5 total resources 1441gp
Encounter 1
Show
Bela enters the city, accepts peacebonding and stables his horse.
He collects his pay and enters the tavern with Elmo. He has used
no resources yet today, he doesn’t do long duration buffs. His
reach weapons are in his room at the inn.
In the Tavern, Elmo changes form and goes berserk.
Init Elmo +1 Bela +1 50%, Elmo wins init.
2 claws +13 vs AC24, one hit (100%) for 12
bite +11 vs AC24 miss (140%)
Bela hits elmo with hexblade curse, bear saves +4 vs dc11 Elmo saves 70%
Bela 5' back, draw tanglefoot, throw +6 vs AC10 hit 85%
Elmo save +6 vs 15 fail 130% stuck
commoners withdraw screaming
Elmo 62s5 Bela 31
elmo claws his way free, moves toward Bela
Bela 5' back, drinks potion enlarge person, expertise5/defensive
elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 15%
Elmo claw +11 vs AC30 hit 150% for 13
Bela 5' back, unpeacebonds silver flail
Elmo 62s3 Bela 18
elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 30%
Elmo attack +11 vs AC30 miss 160%
bela back up 5; sling shield, draw flail 2-h, set power attack for 3, rage
elmo approach, take AOO +8 vs AC15 hit 85% for 22
elmo claws Bela +11 vs AC20 miss 220%
bela back 5' power attack 3 hit 155% for 22
Elmo 18s1 Bela 33
elmo approach, take AOO +8 vs AC15 miss 225%
elmo claws Bela +11 vs AC20 hit 280% for 12
bela power attack 3 hit 300% for 22
tanglefoot bag wears off
elmo -4 bela 21
Bela swings at elmo for subdual +8 vs AC8, 395% hits for 15 nonlethal
elmo bleeds 290%
elmo -5+15 nonlethal Bela 21
Bela comes out of rage, draws wand clw, taps elmo, heals 5 lethal/5 nonlethal
elmo 0+10 nonlethal Bela 6
Bela starts healing, uses 7 more charges clw
resources: rage, hexblade curse, 8 charges clw, potion enlarge, tanglefoot bag (220gp)
Bela enters the city, accepts peacebonding and stables his horse.
He collects his pay and enters the tavern with Elmo. He has used
no resources yet today, he doesn’t do long duration buffs. His
reach weapons are in his room at the inn.
In the Tavern, Elmo changes form and goes berserk.
Init Elmo +1 Bela +1 50%, Elmo wins init.
2 claws +13 vs AC24, one hit (100%) for 12
bite +11 vs AC24 miss (140%)
Bela hits elmo with hexblade curse, bear saves +4 vs dc11 Elmo saves 70%
Bela 5' back, draw tanglefoot, throw +6 vs AC10 hit 85%
Elmo save +6 vs 15 fail 130% stuck
commoners withdraw screaming
Elmo 62s5 Bela 31
elmo claws his way free, moves toward Bela
Bela 5' back, drinks potion enlarge person, expertise5/defensive
elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 15%
Elmo claw +11 vs AC30 hit 150% for 13
Bela 5' back, unpeacebonds silver flail
Elmo 62s3 Bela 18
elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 30%
Elmo attack +11 vs AC30 miss 160%
bela back up 5; sling shield, draw flail 2-h, set power attack for 3, rage
elmo approach, take AOO +8 vs AC15 hit 85% for 22
elmo claws Bela +11 vs AC20 miss 220%
bela back 5' power attack 3 hit 155% for 22
Elmo 18s1 Bela 33
elmo approach, take AOO +8 vs AC15 miss 225%
elmo claws Bela +11 vs AC20 hit 280% for 12
bela power attack 3 hit 300% for 22
tanglefoot bag wears off
elmo -4 bela 21
Bela swings at elmo for subdual +8 vs AC8, 395% hits for 15 nonlethal
elmo bleeds 290%
elmo -5+15 nonlethal Bela 21
Bela comes out of rage, draws wand clw, taps elmo, heals 5 lethal/5 nonlethal
elmo 0+10 nonlethal Bela 6
Bela starts healing, uses 7 more charges clw
resources: rage, hexblade curse, 8 charges clw, potion enlarge, tanglefoot bag (220gp)
Question:
Why is Evil domain helping your CL? Per SRD:
Wouldn't this mean that the evil domain only helps the CL when it is cast? At no other time would it be higher. Does this still count?
Give me a break. You can find better material than that with his build. So according to your read of the rules his spell is CL4 until he finishes the spell then it becomes level 5 automagically but as soon as the effects are set goes back to being CL4?The obvious flaw with effigies is nowhere does it say you can find a level 20 in all classes character with every template in the book applied to it and claim thats what you make your effigy out of. Then again "No sane DM" doesn't really fly in this thread anyway.
I have a VERY hard time believing that you are having a drink with a 50lb board strapped to your arm and ready to defend.
For that matter I have a hard time buying any character having a drink in this bar with all of their backup weapons etc.
Also, how do you 5' step away from something with a 10' reach to drink a potion without being threatened? A 10' step or does he kindly stay 10' away so you can pull that sort of thing off?
If you do have your tower shield out what happens if he grapples you when he beats your init instead of just attacking? The shield won't help you avoid that and if I remember right there is a penalty for having a shield on in a grapple to boot.
Are your armor spikes capable of damaging Elmo or are you just throwing worthless attacks to pump up your rollovers for real attacks later?
Is there a reason you use a single pool for all saving throws? If you keep fort/ref/will separate then he isn't stuck on round 1 and gives you a proper mauling.
You have Elmo moving in to 5' despite his 5' reach every round but the one you step back. Why? You've got a lot of screwy reach issues really. His reach is as good as yours after you drink the potion (assuming he doesn't interrupt you since you're still threatened when he does it). Did you forget he has 10' reach?
You can't use expertise in a round in which you don't make an attack (round 2). Ditto with fighting defensively.
EDIT: There are some other issues also.
The dryads end you with Deep Slumber. Don't give me this its not in their posted stats stuff. Once you throw up prot. evil they have 0 reason not to simply slumber you and wait for it to expire at best. If you don't want to play them stupid then after the slumber they either tie you up or CDG you. Best case for you is they just wait out prot. evil and then charm you again.
Even if you chose to ignore their spell likes, why do the dryads not treestride away from you leaving you entangled behind? Say back off to 300' Now you can't throw javelins but they can still pelt you with arrows.
There are serious issues with the elemental fight also.
What part of the anklet of translocation says it lets you mount a horse as a free action?
How exactly are you accumulating your saves? I'm guessing your horse and you have separate pools and you're accumulating off something else also?
I'm not sure what you mean about giving a potion of enlarge person to the horse in encounter 4. Its not drinking it so what are you doing putting it in a saddlebag?
Question:
Why is Evil domain helping your CL? Per SRD:
Wouldn't this mean that the evil domain only helps the CL when it is cast? At no other time would it be higher. Does this still count?
Also ... did you fix the issue where you are invisible, so the effigies do not know where you are? (i.e. do you walk hand-in-hand?)
Yep. But, then again, neither does the bonus for the Summoner Domain sit constant. So there really isn't a difference.
And yes, the issue with invisibility is fixed. I think there was a misunderstanding - the Effigy must be Visible, but I don't have to be (even if I have to be, which doesn't make sense, the issue is fixed).
The obvious flaw with effigies is nowhere does it say you can find a level 20 in all classes character with every template in the book applied to it and claim thats what you make your effigy out of. Then again "No sane DM" doesn't really fly in this thread anyway.
Well, Effigy is an aquired template, so it can be applied in the middle of a characters existence - say, after a creature has gained class levels. By creating a hypothetical template (a, b, c) x 20/y 20/z 20 and then applying Effigy to it, every HD except one goes poof, but extraordinary abilities not based on Constitution remain. I don't see what's so illegal with this. Heck, the Effigy template mentions dropping class HD, so RAI there was intent to make it handle classes.
The dryads end you with Deep Slumber. Don't give me this its not in their posted stats stuff. Once you throw up prot. evil they have 0 reason not to simply slumber you and wait for it to expire at best.
Note that the Sage's latest comment on Protection from Evil is that it protects against Sleep/Deep Slumber. Of course that contradicts a previous ruling on the issue...
Yes, I totally disagree with the level 20 thing ... but ... having done some research on the net before talking about effigy ... I see that TO uses cheese like that, so I decided to ignore that, hoping someone else would call it -- so that we did not have another domesticated debacle ...
Re: caster level ... what I am saying is that when he is talking about leveling/picking out feats, the summon spell is not an evil spell (per what I posted) so it cannot get the bonus caster level. This would be similar to using Heroism + leveling to bootstrap oneself to beat the pre-reqs of a PrC.
The obvious flaw with effigies is nowhere does it say you can find a level 20 in all classes character with every template in the book applied to it and claim thats what you make your effigy out of. Then again "No sane DM" doesn't really fly in this thread anyway.
I am not even sure that you can apply all templates like that ... but ... I am traveling for work -- so haven't had as much time as normal for things.
And yes, the issue with invisibility is fixed. I think there was a misunderstanding - the Effigy must be Visible, but I don't have to be (even if I have to be, which doesn't make sense, the issue is fixed).
Here is the issue with invisibility.
Your team uses invisibility, so no one can see each other.
Your goal is over there (hand waves somewhere off camera) ... how does your invisible team know where there is ... in such fashion that they all reach it together? if the goal was "that building over there" ... I could see it "maintaing your spacing, we will be moving in a straight line towards that building at 30'/round" ... but when it is "around 9 rounds later, while walking through the forest, you find 2 trolls" ... how does your mini-party stick together and not get separated?
2 claws +13 vs AC24, one hit (100%) for 12
Sorry, I need to agree with grizley here, you are using a tower shield (nearly as tall as you are) while seated? in a tavern? with no penalty?
Also, it 5' steps to you either before or after it full attacks you (why not, it is free, and it is crafty).
Bela 5' back, draw tanglefoot, throw +6 vs AC10 hit 85%
Which causes either the retrieving of an item from your backpack or the tossing of the tanglefoot bag to provoke.
elmo claws his way free
elmo deals > 15 points of slashing damage, clawing his way free ...
moves toward Bela
They are now adjacent to each other.
Bela 5' back, drinks potion enlarge person,
Retrieves a potion of enlarge person (move) which provokes
Drinks (standard) which provokes (however, only one of the two result in an AoO as it doesn't have Combat Reflexes.
expertise5/defensive
This is a second standard in one round (not legal).
elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 15%
Elmo does not need to approach, as he was 5', you took a 5', so he is 10', and has reach.
Regardless, the armor spikes cannot hurt it -- so they need to not be taken into account.
Elmo claw +11 vs AC30 hit 150% for 13
Elmo claw +11 vs ac 25 (no 2 standards in one round) ...
Bela 5' back, unpeacebonds silver flail Elmo 62s3 Bela 18 elmo approaches, takes armor spike AOO -3 vs ac15 miss 30%
At this point in time, either this one, or the previous move does provoke, as Elmo is moving at 1/2 speed (tanglefoot bag) which means no 5' step. However, I don't know what round it is, so maybe it already wore off?
But, since he isn't concerned about armor spikes, we can ignore this.
Elmo attack +11 vs AC30 miss 160%
Elmo attack +11 vs AC 25 (you cannot take a standard PLUS take a full-round action). This still misses, as it is only 210%, but still ....
bela back up 5; sling shield, draw flail 2-h, set power attack for 3, rage
Bela back up 5' (non action),
Sling Shield (move)
Draw flail (move, this can be combined with a move, but not a move-equivalent). However, by my reckoning, you already have it in your hand (you need it in your hand to unpeacebond it).
elmo claws Bela +11 vs AC20 miss 220%
This one hits, because of the extra 50% from earlier.
elmo 0+10 nonlethal Bela 6
Which means that here, you passed away ...
(witnesses and rents in his clothing confirm this, plus no saliva)
There were no witnesses, as they all fled ... but as the encounted does not say that you have to talk them out of it, nor that they desire proof, this is an objection to fluff.
He accepts the +1axe as his due for risking his life for the city (Bela is CN).
I completely disagree with this aspect of the mini-adventure, but ... it is per encounter so it is just an opinion thing.
Bela draws smokestick and uses the fire burning on him to ignite it
Bela draws a smokestick (retrieves item from pack) which provokes.
Dog bites (+6vs ac 23 (the 22 from before, +1 for not being flatfooted),20%, 55%) hitting for 6.5 damage and starting a trip attempt ...
rages attempts touch attack to grapple dog ouch attack +7 vs AC12(20% miss) hit 457% grapple +7 vs +3 succeed (70%) damage with armor spikes =10
How are you dealing damage with the armor spikes on winning the grapple check? Normally, it takes you being in a grapple, then attacking with a light weapon (-4 to hit) to deal damage like this. Or do you have an ability I missed?
A showers Bela's square with 3 acid flasks acid flasks can't penetrate hardness 7 of shield (and 30hp) bela burns for 3 more A orders the dog back in. Dog bites tower shield (auto matic) for 10 (shield 37hp)
Why are the smart party member, who adventured with you, and know your weaknesses ... using acid flasks vs you, when they know it cannot work? The better tactic, would be to hold ... and as soon as you no longer have full cover, to shower you with acid again.
A calls dog back, he comes. Bela draws/drinks potion of faith healing
Good thing they called the dog back, in order to do something that had no chance of working, else you would have taken an AoO for drawing your potion. Also, how is the dog getting CLW cast on it, when the leash has silence on it?
throw two acid flask hit 1 for 9
Why are they not tanglefoot bagging you a second time?
Did I read this right -- as this is a loss anyway?
It zooms over. Bela ready +10 vs ac20(20% miss) 698% miss
It has 10' reach, Bela has 5' reach, this cannot happen.
Per encounter notes, ride check can be used instead of reflex save vs sucked up if the mount is not sucked up. +11 vs dc16 235% fail
Um ... unless the mount is medium, there is no way for the mount to be sucked up ... but thats ok.
Did you take damage from the whirlwind?
When horse is within 5', translocates onto horse, rides 60' away from elemental, loosing shield
See Grizley's comment for the translocation thing ...
So ... in one round you:
Handle Animal (Come, Move action)
Translocate (swift)
You can't use the anklet to move into a space occupied by another creature, nor can you teleport into a solid object; if you attempt to do so, the anklet's activation is wasted.
So, I guess you translocate into the square above the mount, then fall into the saddle as a free action?
Ride 60' away from the elemental (move)
Loose the shield (move)?
Horse +5 vs DC16 fail 100% take 7 dmg
Horse is not smaller than elemental, cannot be picked up, cannot be damaged by whirlwind.
bela gallops 250' away, draw sword rages, set power attack to 5, ready to hit
You have to help me out here ... how is the horse moving 250'? Is it running?
Light load is up to 300 pounds for a heavy warhorse.
Human: 150
Full Plate: 50
Tower Shield: 45
Saddle: 25
Rope: 20
This is 300 pounds, and you have more stuff than this ...
So, it does not move at 50, but at 35 (or whatever) and runs at 4x, not 5x, which means when it runs, the elemental can charge and attack.
Once these issues get fixed ... I will look at this again (when I have time tonight).
Note that the Sage's latest comment on Protection from Evil is that it protects against Sleep/Deep Slumber. Of course that contradicts a previous ruling on the issue...
The sage is about as relevant and consistent as an angry frenchman.
Basically the stats of the dryad in srd, especially with two of them, make them a nasty nasty encounter for anyone with a poor will save. Like Bela. Under the rules of our contest you need a... +10? will save to survive round 1. That or kill one before it acts and have a +5 will save. Or you can assume they're standing right next to each other so you can kill them both.
Or better yet your build can incorporate some sort of companion so you can each charge and kill one of them.The obvious flaw with effigies is nowhere does it say you can find a level 20 in all classes character with every template in the book applied to it and claim thats what you make your effigy out of. Then again "No sane DM" doesn't really fly in this thread anyway.
That doesn't work right that way.
The effigy template says you need a caster level equal to the creature's hit dice. It doesn't specify if that creature is the effigy or the base creature. So it's up for the DM to decide from 2 choices:
1-The caster level is based in the base creature. So you'll need to be uber epic.
2-The caster level is based in the effigy. And then it's broken as hell.
Based in the rules of pratical optimization from these same boards, option 1 is the one we should follow.
Or should I bring my candle of invocation?
You can't use expertise in a round in which you don't make an attack (round 2). Ditto with fighting defensively.
You can say "I attack the air" (or an invisible opponent that might or might not be there). Yes, it's cheesy but 100% legal.
I didn't read through everything you guys are talking about. If you're saying he used another standard action which was not an attack, and then claimed bonuses from these, then yeah, that's not legal. But you don't technically have to attack your opponent to use them. You just have to dedicate at least a standard action to "attack" to get their benefits, whether you actually attack anything or not.
You can say "I attack the air" (or an invisible opponent that might or might not be there). Yes, it's cheesy but 100% legal.
I didn't read through everything you guys are talking about. If you're saying he used another standard action which was not an attack, and then claimed bonuses from these, then yeah, that's not legal. But you don't technically have to attack your opponent to use them. You just have to dedicate at least a standard action to "attack" to get their benefits, whether you actually attack anything or not.
He wasn't making any attacks, just saying "+5 AC from Combat Expertise"
Solberg, does ac24 include your tower shield?
I have a VERY hard time believing that you are having a drink with a 50lb board strapped to your arm and ready to defend.
For that matter I have a hard time buying any character having a drink in this bar with all of their backup weapons etc.
Well, given that Bela has been in several lethal fights that started when he was drinking in a bar before he reached level 4, perhaps he's more cautious than you are. He only needs his right hand to drink with, and one of those fights involved something with DR/cold iron so....in fact he's feeling kind of nervous about the fact that the only cold iron he's packing is javelins.
He's like one of those cops in a movie who is always packing several guns.
It doesn't violate any laws and while people my not want to sit next to him, that's fine with Bela.
Also, how do you 5' step away from something with a 10' reach to drink a potion without being threatened? A 10' step or does he kindly stay 10' away so you can pull that sort of thing off?
Does the werebear in hybrid form have 10x10 reach? (looks it up) Darn. Ok, I'll have to redo that fight.
If you do have your tower shield out what happens if he grapples you when he beats your init instead of just attacking? The shield won't help you avoid that and if I remember right there is a penalty for having a shield on in a grapple to boot.
There's no penalty for grappling with a shield in 3.5, but he's a berserking werebear. He isn't going to grapple, he doesn't have improved grab in hybrid form and he's not smart enough right now to use human maneuvers. One of the balancing factors for the "I am in a city in a tavern with peacbound weapons and pets missing" is that he fights stupid.
Are your armor spikes capable of damaging Elmo or are you just throwing worthless attacks to pump up your rollovers for real attacks later?
I'm attacking to expertise/defensive my AC up. You don't get those bonuses until you don't attack, and you have to set them at the beginning of the round. The AOO lets me raise the AC.
Is there a reason you use a single pool for all saving throws? If you keep fort/ref/will separate then he isn't stuck on round 1 and gives you a proper mauling.
Because it's more complicated that way and less likely to cause weird artifacts based around the first roll being 50% and the rest being 100% further. I used to use separate pools, both for myself and enemies and it lead to skewed results. The odds are actually that he WILL fail one of those two saves, he's only slightly above 50% on either.
You have Elmo moving in to 5' despite his 5' reach every round but the one you step back... Did you forget he has 10' reach?
Yeah, I have to redo the whole fight and will likely lose. Elmo having 10x10 reach destroys the strategy I used, which was based on him being like a bear. With my reach weapons upstairs at the inn I'm likely well and truly hosed, becuase he won't win duking it out at APL5. Elmo's attack mods are too high to fight without the shield, and with the shield I don't damage him fast enough.
The dryads end you with Deep Slumber. Don't give me this its not in their posted stats stuff. Once you throw up prot. evil they have 0 reason not to simply slumber you and wait for it to expire at best. If you don't want to
#1, this encounter is a downscaling of a succubus CR7 encounter. They have a drain wisdom mechanic instead of a "save or the encoutner ends" mechanic. They don't get deep slumber, they get the ability to drain wisdom. Some things aren't perfect when you try to scale an encounter for multiple APLs. "Save and your adventure ends" is boring in challenges like this, encounter 2 , 3, 4 and 5 you are hindered a lot if you have bad saves but still have a chance.
#2, they don't know what the wand did, you can't spellcraft a wand. But since he failed a save earlier and passed two higher saves, they can guess it did something to help his will save. If they guess prot evil, they don't know if it is the short duration spell or the 10 minute/level version, a wand could do either. Unless he cues them by recasting it, they can't really know (and in any event their charm spells are at a +4 to his saves since he's in combat)
Even if you chose to ignore their spell likes, why do the dryads not treestride away from you leaving you entangled behind? Say back off to 300' Now you can't throw javelins but they can still pelt you with arrows.
The terrain blocks visibility beyond 60', see the original encounter setup. It prevents me from noticing them and buffing up, but it also prevents them standing off and shooting out of javelin range. They should move past 30' though, and they should be using the tree for cover. There is an implied idea that they can't abandon the high priest in the tree - if they just bailed Bela could free or at least kill the priest, spoiling their plot.
There are serious issues with the elemental fight also.
What part of the anklet of translocation says it lets you mount a horse as a free action?
You can teleport anywhere within 10'. Why not on the horse's back? Maybe there should be a ride check or something. It's got to be easier than a fastmount though.
How exactly are you accumulating your saves? I'm guessing your horse and you have separate pools and you're accumulating off something else also?
Each allied creature gets separate save pools. I was getting weird artifacts with the system where the horse failed every save or Bela failed every save in things like the extraplanar challenge where either would have done better alone. Similar on attacks. This dynamic doesn't seem to be as bad on enemies, probably because I don't have any way of affecting multiple enemies at once and because the enemies are usually multiple of the same type if using attack rolls, which means a weak attacker rarely messes up (or artificially sets up) the dice pool for a stronger attacker.
I pulled grapple checks out of the basic attack pool for the same reason. Successful touch attacks (or normal attacks for improved grab) were causing unsuccessful grapple checks and the reverse.
I'd like to actually randomize the order where you get saves in sequence (like the elemental saves) because the pools cause artifacts but nobody seemed to like that idea when I floated it.
I'm not sure what you mean about giving a potion of enlarge person to the horse in encounter 4. Its not drinking it so what are you doing putting it in a saddlebag?
I'm sure I meant to say "potion of mage armor".
It looks like I need to go through and redo a lot of stuff.
Draw flail (move, this can be combined with a move, but not a move-equivalent). However, by my reckoning, you already have it in your hand (you need it in your hand to unpeacebond it).
Most of the flaws in the first fight have to do with 10x10 reach, and don't need to be repeated.
By my reckoning, the peacebond is a knot tied on the "Sheathed" weapon, whatever that means. Removing it still leaves weapon in sheathed state.
I see there is disagreement with using AOO's to trigger expertise/defensive so I won't do that in the refight or future.
Bela draws a smokestick (retrieves item from pack) which provokes.
Dog bites (+6vs ac 23 (the 22 from before, +1 for not being flatfooted),20%, 55%) hitting for 6.5 damage and starting a trip attempt ...
Well, not from pack (that's full round). All the splash weapons and similar are hung off his armor like grenades or something (equipment is pretty abstract in D&D...the ranger has somehow rigged his splash weapons to be "weaponlike") but same as potion, yeah it should provoke. Given that L5 bela might not live past the first encounter this may be moot
How are you dealing damage with the armor spikes on winning the grapple check? Normally, it takes you being in a grapple, then attacking with a light weapon (-4 to hit) to deal damage like this. Or do you have an ability I missed?
It is a property of armor spikes. Per the PHB and clarified by the FAQ, armor spikes can be used instead of your unarmed strike damage whenever you deal damage as a part of a grapple check. Establishing a grapple is one of those times.
Why are the smart party member, who adventured with you, and know your weaknesses ... using acid flasks vs you, when they know it cannot work? The better tactic, would be to hold ... and as soon as you no longer have full cover, to shower you with acid again.
Acid flasks do work, but they can't see that I'm using the tower shield for full cover. It is a 5' alleyway, there is 5' of smoke between me and them and until then I've been fighting the dog. Without going into the smoke an risking close combat, he can't know about the tower shield, at least not in the first round.
In the second round he might assume it's up, from the sound of flasks hitting the shield or something. He might have oiled up the shillelagh sooner.
Good thing they called the dog back, in order to do something that had no chance of working, else you would have taken an AoO for drawing your potion. Also, how is the dog getting CLW cast on it, when the leash has silence on it?
Actually I couldn't drink any potions until the tanglefoot wore off, I can't make the concentration check. Give the dog attack mods vs mine, I really would have preferred it took an AOO and keeled over, being at zero hitpoints. Would have saved trouble. I figured the ranger would rather have his dog alive for later than to have it expose itself to a coup de grace doing a futile attack. (they can see the dog, he's in concealment, but not total concealment)
I think I wrote it wrong....I intended to have the bard cast clw and hold the charge, then I think I got cute with readied actions, which save a round but doesn't work with the silence. Given how little the bard was doing then, no outcome would be different if he took the extra round.
Why are they not tanglefoot bagging you a second time?
The tanglefoot bag was part of the final salvo. It missed.
He only had two.
Did I read this right -- as this is a loss anyway?
Yup. Regardless of nitpicks and errors, the ranger got a crit before I could heal out of trouble. My strategy of running them out of spells and consumables failed
It has 10' reach, Bela has 5' reach, this cannot happen.
Um ... unless the mount is medium, there is no way for the mount to be sucked up ... but thats ok.
Did you take damage from the whirlwind?
Everything risks damage from the whirlwind. Medium size things have to roll a second save to be sucked up. All the horse saves were for the damage.
So ... in one round you:
Handle Animal (Come, Move action)
Translocate (swift)
So, I guess you translocate into the square above the mount, then fall into the saddle as a free action?
Ride 60' away from the elemental (move)
Loose the shield (move)?
That was the idea, although I'm open to what kind of ride check that is (considering fast mount to be the alternative since that is obviously legal)
Loosing the shield can be done as part of a move action. It leaves the shield on the ground (as opposed to unreadying it, which lets me equip it again)
Horse is not smaller than elemental, cannot be picked up, cannot be damaged by whirlwind.
(looks it up).
Damn you're right. Ok, next time I fight this I'll ignore the horse.
You have to help me out here ... how is the horse moving 250'? Is it running?
Light load is up to 300 pounds for a heavy warhorse.
Human: 150
Full Plate: 50
Tower Shield: 45
Saddle: 25
Rope: 20
This is 300 pounds, and you have more stuff than this ...
So, it does not move at 50, but at 35 (or whatever) and runs at 4x, not 5x, which means when it runs, the elemental can charge and attack.
Nope, right again. Most adventurers can squeeze in under 300lb but not Bela. Back to the drawing board.
Once these issues get fixed ... I will look at this again (when I have time tonight).
Yeah. I suspect he'll just fail, as I originally thought he would when I wrote up the challenges. The 10x10 reach and the encumbered horse pretty much scotch the tactics used in that fight, and he already lost encounter 2. I don't think the gibbering mouther can kill him but the dryads using cover and 40' range can probably run him out of ranged attacks and kill him.
I'll try again though. Maybe he can win some of the encounters. If not I'll run L7 Bela through the CR5 version before attempting CR7 just to regain confidence
Reading that last sentance, something strikes me as wrong when the more defensive builds are the casters (not that either the druid or cleric lack for offense) and the ones that rely on killing thier opponent before they get to do much attacking are the non-casters.
I think a lot of monsters with imp. grab to try to test the casters ability to deal with grapple gives Meyers orc a little too much milage out of CQF though. Forget the fact that it makes grapples almost impossible, it gives him just enough damage to survive with a handful of hp left. :P
I see there is disagreement with using AOO's to trigger expertise/defensive so I won't do that in the refight or future.
Here is why we think that way :
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
Sorry to have to be the one to point out the errors.
True, but you only deal damage if you win the (post initial) grapple check ... (points to grapple rules, reminds you of the whole cleric/grapple discussion)
You deal damage on the initial grapple check, also.
Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.
If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
With armor spikes, you use that damage along with your unarmed strike damage, of course.
I just don't think Bela is in the same league as some of the other entries. Strong for what he is no doubt, but not as tanky as the casters and not as offensive as Meyers entry.
I completely agree ...
Reading that last sentance, something strikes me as wrong when the more defensive builds are the casters (not that either the druid or cleric lack for offense) and the ones that rely on killing thier opponent before they get to do much attacking are the non-casters.
Not really. The casters, when given the opportunity, can buff terrifically ...
Run any of the alter-self builds through and you will be horrified at how lack-luster their performance is.
I think a lot of monsters with imp. grab to try to test the casters ability to deal with grapple gives Meyers orc a little too much milage out of CQF though. Forget the fact that it makes grapples almost impossible, it gives him just enough damage to survive with a handful of hp left. :P
Correct!!! However, having been in a gauntlet where CQF was the key to victory, getting that extra attack off, and not being pinned ... is why I include it whenever/wherever possible. Even if it is not able to be used.
Btw ... are you going to go through "full moon" cr5? I am looking forward to seeing it done.
You deal damage on the initial grapple check, also.
With armor spikes, you use that damage along with your unarmed strike damage, of course.
:surrender
Oops ... sorry. (deleting reference in earlier post)
1) Is the ice axe a slashing weapon? (to scrape off the goo)
Because the spell describes it as a Battleaxe like weapon that you are automatically proficient in. Battleaxes are slashing, last I checked.
2) Why can't one of the bards cast another charm person? I cannot see two bards each singing with inspirational boost -- knowing that they do not stack.
Only one of them sings, the other does nothing. They are out of spell slots (2/2/1, all got used).
1) Why do you get more saves after you are picked up (round 4)? I must have misread it ... as I didn't see anything that lists new saves after getting picked up.
Mistake, happens on occasion.
Off the top of my head, I’d say that anything up to 50 or 60 feet is clearly too fast to react to (barring a readied action, of course), and anything that approaches 250 feet or more should probably allow characters some chance to react, but that’s purely a personal opinion.
Wow, that's authoritative! Especially compared to my SRD quote where it shows a falling, flying creature falling at 150 feet per round!
Either way, I'm at 200 feet, so that warrants at least a partial action. Which is all I need.
3) How does your 5' reach character ready an action to attack the elemental with a 15' reach? Is your readied action "I attack his hand when his hand gets close?" Is this legal? Per FAQ, it is a possible houserule to make an AoO when you go not threaten ... is this the rationale -- or is there a rule that I am ignorant of?
Fine, I can ready a charge, since it's at least 10 feet away, and the entire encounter goes down in the exact same way, except +2 to attack and -2 to AC on every roll.
4) How does your 1/round level CL1 blade of blood last for the round you activate the wand as well as the following round?
It's a swift action, and it's in a Wand Chamber.
(in real world physics, a 200' drop is less than 4 seconds.)
Great. I only need a single standard action, which as part of a full round action, is about half. Furthermore, real world physics is irrelevant - I have a rules quote that says falling 150 feet per round. Hey Meyers, going to make a house rule to spite me? Or just going to ignore the rules like you constantly try to? Oh, wait, no, I get it! FAQ over-rules DMG/SRD now, right? Especially when the FAQ says "Purely personal opinion."
What is this death knell trick for caster level. Are you buying a bag of gerbils or something?
Cities have plenty of rats, forests have plenty of crickets and beatles. A minor task to hunt one down.
I'm also not sure what the point of the mundane crafting is. You're increasing your gold supply for gear?
As well as demonstrating another power of casters: abilities to buff skill checks in out of combat situations, and control social situations through spells (Moment of Insight + Bluff).
The rangers toss their salvos before sending the dog in. They don't need precise shot in the first round. (and that's why they don't have it...most of the time this build isn't shooting at stuff in melee or can hit it anyway).
It's a 5 foot alley way. They are shooting past the dogs at me. You specified in the set-up that they are approaching to yell at you and beat you up. You do not specify the length of the alley way. If it is 35 feet or less, I have to start adjacent to one of the dogs. If it is more, as they are threatening me (because your encounter does specify that), I can move up to combat range, at which point, we roll initiative.
Oh, and Meyers: Win: 4 (Otherworldly Alterself warmage), (Abjurer, Exploding Runes), (Otherworldly Alterself wizard).
This character should be added to the win list. I won the original CR 5 encounter, and numerous others, without buying buffs. Doing show just shows your bias. ((DMM Cleric - Per Consensus, cannot use outside spellcasters)), because I won numerous encounters before using outside spellcasters was changed. You are just trying to waste my time and make me re-run those numbers, or support your own pathetic bias.
I wish that I had the second post in this thread, so that I could keep a more accurate running tally than Meyers.
If you aren't a melee threat they might not send in the dogs at all, to maximize their missile attacks. They'd have it as a last defense against you if the ranger goes down, guarding the bards. You are supposed to be metagaming their capability against yours for maximum effect, since they know you (which is why silence was precast on the leash vs Bela, because it prevents thing like him leaping over dog, translocating past the ranger and grappling the bard as his first action)
The DMM cleric seems to rely very heavily on extremely high caster levels. I'd like to know how much you're getting out of Deathknell abuse, so we can gauge the impact of letting it stack with itself. If you're only doing it once, then that's totally kosher. If you're using it as open ended stacking caster levels it might fall under infinite loop abuses as "not interesting".
I was mildly appalled at how brutal the DMM cleric was. I guess he isn't as nice a guy as I thought
I'm kind of happy somebody took the "kill everything and intimidate the watch" path. I figured somebody would need it.I just don't think Bela is in the same league as some of the other entries. Strong for what he is no doubt, but not as tanky as the casters and not as offensive as Meyers entry.
Reading that last sentance, something strikes me as wrong when the more defensive builds are the casters (not that either the druid or cleric lack for offense) and the ones that rely on killing thier opponent before they get to do much attacking are the non-casters.
Agree with both statements. Bela is a character that would be allowed in most campaigns, although he would not be as addicted to consumables in a real game as he is going solo. (Real Bela at L5 travels with potion of clw, prot evil, bless weapon and shillelagh, and that's it for consumables). He's actually intended more as a baseline vs the CR system and he works pretty well. He's generally capable of anything under his CR easily, CR+0 he can usually win, pretty much always if buffed but with 1/3 or 1/4 death rate if caught with pants down, CR+1 kills him half the time.
What I would expect from some of the others is that after the potence was demonstrated, they'd get toned down a little. Favorable sacrifice might not be granted by the gods very often and not on consumables at all. Open ended spells like death knell, venomfire and such would find themselves capped in some way. Zombie Griffons and Fleshraker Dinosaurs wouldn't be welcome everywhere socially, nor would a bunch of otherworldly ancestral dwarves (or troglodytes). Nightsticks usually get restricted to 1 per character or banned once DMM clerics start using them, etc.
The second observation is a sign that some defensive buffs are probably too powerful, but it seems like the cost of getting them up at least in low levels precludes using spells for potent offense, so those builds chip away or bypass usual mechanics (eg shadows).
The one exception to that was the otherworldly alter self warmage, who actually used blasting spells.
I actually like the concept of what the DMM cleric turns into...essentially a warlock with some offense and defense "always on".
:D
Here is what the FAQ has to say on the subject:
griffon-riding character falls off his mount 300 feet up, how
long do other characters have to catch him?
This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The
short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit
the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in
the game.”
Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a
rate of 32 feet per second per second. What that means is that
every second, a character’s “falling speed” increases by 32 feet.
The distance he falls in that second is equal to the average of
his falling speeds at the beginning of that second and at the end
of that second. Thus, during the first second he falls 16 feet (the
average of 0 feet and 32 feet, which are his speeds at the start
and end of that second). During the next second he falls 48 feet
(the average of 32 feet and 64 feet). He falls 80 feet during the
third second, 112 feet the fourth second, 144 feet the fifth
second, and 176 feet the sixth second. That’s a grand total of
576 feet fallen in the first round alone, hence the short answer
given above—the number of falls occurring in any campaign
longer than this is probably pretty small. For ease of play, you
could simply use 500 feet as a nice round number—it’s easier
to remember."
It goes on to say that terminal velocity is 1200'/round, and that the DM is free to decide if other characters might react and set the threshold where they can. Here's the key point.
"The difference between “you
watch the character fall all the way to the ground before you
can react” and “the character starts to fall, what do you do?” is
really just up to the DM’s sense of fun and fair play."
I'm afraid I'm old school - when we fell down 200' pits 30 years ago, if you didn't have feather fall or monk slow fall or some other "instant" type thing going, you just fall, and the damage is rolled right then. When I am dropped from an elemental in my play environment in the millenium (3.5 edition), the only reaction anyone gets is immediate actions.
You all might not agree. Here's my suggestion on how to deal with it if it actually matters, as it seems to for the DMM cleric.
It's ok to say "If the GM rules that falling is instant I lose, but if he rules I have time for a std action before I go splat, here's how I can continue the adventure".
When Bela dies, or if it is a GM call whether he would (eg, will-o-wisp encounter) I do the same thing to allow my char to get to the next challenge, but I still count that encounter as a "lose".
Fine, I can ready a charge, since it's at least 10 feet away, and the entire encounter goes down in the exact same way, except +2 to attack and -2 to AC on every roll.
Except charges can't be readied in 3.5. There are no partial charges unless you're slowed or a zombie or something that has no partial actions.
The reason for this was people moving, and either partial charging or then readying to charge and essentially getting to change direction "mid-charge'.
The last sentence prevents "readying for a charge" under most circumstances and most GM's rule that it prevents "ready for charge" under any circumstances for consistency reasons. Certainly it covers the existing combat, the char wanting to do it is neither "slowed" nor in a surprise round.
"CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action...If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."
If we're wanting to use only RAW here, the rules are pretty clear. However, some things have been modified for this challenge, to make it more realistic to what would actually be allowed/used in a real game. I think there is a good case for not using RAW here.
Btw ... are you going to go through "full moon" cr5? I am looking forward to seeing it done.
I'll probably get around to it late this week or early next. One encounter per night or so, to reduce rework. This week has been very busy at work since I've been training people from out of state.
I think I said this earlier in this thread, so forgive me for repeating myself. Personally, I think the rules banning partial charges are exceedingly stupid. So big, clumsy, stupid zombies can ready charges, but Nimblewrights can't? What kind of sense does that make?
If we're wanting to use only RAW here, the rules are pretty clear. However, some things have been modified for this challenge, to make it more realistic to what would actually be allowed/used in a real game. I think there is a good case for not using RAW here.
I've never had a DM who would either allow you to ready a charge and then use that to change direction. Or a DM who wouldn't let you ready a charge.
Obviously its not meant to allow you to abuse charging around corners and things but not allowing partial charges anymore is a "fix" thats worse than the problem.
Because the spell describes it as a Battleaxe like weapon that you are automatically proficient in. Battleaxes are slashing, last I checked.
Just checking ... so the Cold damage it does is slashing?
Only one of them sings, the other does nothing. They are out of spell slots (2/2/1, all got used).
Oh, then there is the problem. To get +2/+2 like the bards are doing, they need to use a 1st level spell (one less charm person) -- i.e. you made it tougher than you had to.
Wow, that's authoritative! Especially compared to my SRD quote where it shows a falling, flying creature falling at 150 feet per round!
Either way, I'm at 200 feet, so that warrants at least a partial action. Which is all I need.
Um... my quote was from the FAQ which Solberb quote in its entirety shortly afterwards.
It's a swift action, and it's in a Wand Chamber.
Sorry, this doesn't answer my question. What I am asking is whether or not the blade of blood is lasting 1 round, or 2 rounds?
Hey Meyers, going to make a house rule to spite me? Or just going to ignore the rules like you constantly try to? Oh, wait, no, I get it! FAQ over-rules DMG/SRD now, right? Especially when the FAQ says "Purely personal opinion."
Seriously ... have I made any house rules to spite you?
I didn't say you could or could not do that, I pointed out the only thing I could find on the subject, which implied that you could do it either with the flying/falling ruling you have, or with the FAQ thing.
Oh, and Meyers: Win: 4 (Otherworldly Alterself warmage), (Abjurer, Exploding Runes), (Otherworldly Alterself wizard).
This character should be added to the win list. I won the original CR 5 encounter, and numerous others, without buying buffs. Doing show just shows your bias. ((DMM Cleric - Per Consensus, cannot use outside spellcasters)), because I won numerous encounters before using outside spellcasters was changed.
I will be re-adding your character to the win list ... but as of the last posted version, it was not legal ...
You are just trying to waste my time and make me re-run those numbers, or support your own pathetic bias.
I wish that I had the second post in this thread, so that I could keep a more accurate running tally than Meyers.
Make a post for tally's, and I will link to it from the first page (possibly even replacing my tally, if you are interested).
What I would expect from some of the others is that after the potence was demonstrated, they'd get toned down a little. Favorable sacrifice might not be granted by the gods very often and not on consumables at all. Open ended spells like death knell, venomfire and such would find themselves capped in some way. Zombie Griffons and Fleshraker Dinosaurs wouldn't be welcome everywhere socially, nor would a bunch of otherworldly ancestral dwarves (or troglodytes). Nightsticks usually get restricted to 1 per character or banned once DMM clerics start using them, etc.
I am glad they are not getting toned down (well, rather, besides the power reduction from lack of outside spellcasters/higher level spells/etc which posters (other than me) voted on) -- as this is a search for overpowered spellcasters.
I've never had a DM who would either allow you to ready a charge and then use that to change direction. Or a DM who wouldn't let you ready a charge.
Obviously its not meant to allow you to abuse charging around corners and things but not allowing partial charges anymore is a "fix" thats worse than the problem.
Charge is normally a full-round action. A better fix would have been to state something like "If you ready a charge, you do not get any move actions for the round. If you've already taken a move or ME, you can't ready a charge."
I am glad they are not getting toned down (well, rather, besides the power reduction from lack of outside spellcasters/higher level spells/etc which posters (other than me) voted on) -- as this is a search for overpowered spellcasters.
Well, me too, but I want to understand them. Which is why I'm asking how many gerbils he's death knelling etc.
I didn't look through it real closely, but thats what it looks like to me.
Here is the issue with invisibility.
Your team uses invisibility, so no one can see each other.
Your goal is over there (hand waves somewhere off camera) ... how does your invisible team know where there is ... in such fashion that they all reach it together? if the goal was "that building over there" ... I could see it "maintaing your spacing, we will be moving in a straight line towards that building at 30'/round" ... but when it is "around 9 rounds later, while walking through the forest, you find 2 trolls" ... how does your mini-party stick together and not get separated?
Just saw this, apologies if there is a more recent post.
The effigies don't actually need to hear my voice. I just have to be within 60 feet and be able to see them. Control is (IIRC) mental. Even if it is verbal, there is no reason they need to be able to see me. If I command them: 'attack the chraal' (which is an outdated command), then they identify the chraal (they can identify elves, so I think this is okay) and attack.
As to staying together, I'm confused as to the issue. I know the effigies move 30 feet a round (because I told them to). I know which direction the effigies are headed in (I told them). There is no reason why I would not know where my effigies are, because the only time they stop walking at a predictable pace is to attack, and then they become visible.
I don't care about being separated from my effigies. I want to be as far from the battle as possible, in case of AoE attacks.
As to the 20 level thing, I can only shrug. There is no hidden rule saying: "but the crafter can only create a creature with as many levels as half his ECL" or something, and class HD specifically vanish. RAW, and with reasonable RAI justification (they specifically mention a case that comes up if class levels are applied, so they must have thought of it), I can do it.
P.S. Thanks for adding Dan to the list. I loved your description!
I like the idea of a flying undead doing circles high in the sky above town, far enough up to appear as a dot in the sky.When you call him, he "comes a running" .
Unfortunately an undead controlled via Animate Dead responds to voice commands, not mental control. Maybe if you Rebuke/Control the big guy, you will be able to get serious air cover.
Not really a consideration for this fight but, think of the future.
Also, a cheap Message type item would work.
PhaedrusXY:About the Zombie, and the tavern fight.
I like the idea of a flying undead doing circles high in the sky above town, far enough up to appear as a dot in the sky.When you call him, he "comes a running" .
Yeah, but that would lead to problems with the local law enforcement. I was trying to "avoid Imperial entanglements". :P
Unfortunately an undead controlled via Animate Dead responds to voice commands, not mental control.
Hubert just needs to be able to yell really loudly, then. :D
Maybe if you Rebuke/Control the big guy, you will be able to get serious air cover.
It requires a standard action to issue orders to Commanded minions, though. Ordering animated undead around is a free action (talking).
Not really a consideration for this fight but, think of the future.
Also, a cheap Message type item would work.
Yeah, that might be a good idea for a real game. I doubt I'll need it for any more of these "gauntlets", though.
Also, before I post the level 7 version of Hubert, what is the group consensus on how different classes that grant Rebuke/Turn Undead stack? The Complete Guide to Turning offers a decent overview of it with suggestions, but I don't think the rules are actually very clear.
One possible interpretation: you add the levels together to determine effective "cleric" level. You don't get double Turn/Rebuke attempts.
Another: You don't add the class levels together. They are totally separate unless stated otherwise (i.e. the class says it stacks with others). Because of this, the number of "Turn" attempts are also separate, and adding a second Turning class doubles the number of attempts you have.
I think per the RAW, the second interpretation is actually "more legal" (and is the one suggested in the Turning Guide), but of course offers itself up for DMM abuse.
Also, if you favor the first interpretation, what about if you get Turning from Cleric and Rebuking from Dread Necro, for example?
The effigies don't actually need to hear my voice. I just have to be within 60 feet and be able to see them. Control is (IIRC) mental.
As others have posted previously, quoted from CA p.151,
"An effigy's creator can command it if the effigy is within 60 feet and can see and hear him." The effigy needs to be able to both see and hear you for you to command it.
(I also think the intent of effigy is pretty clearly "drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels and lose the class abilities along with them", but whatever. I'm also not sure having more than two half-dragon templates leads to a legitimate base creature ;) Also your monsters have BAB 0, since effigies have BAB equal to 3/4 HD: it probably doesn't make much difference though.)
Regarding Fall: The FAQ quote still gives 3 seconds to fall 200 feet (16+48+80), which is enough time to get a partial action, I believe.
Readying a Charge: I also agree that's ridiculous, but fine, I only defeat 4 CR 7 encounters and 1 CR 5 encounters, rather than 5 CR 7 encounters. Hey Meyer's, have you been put up against the CR 7 encounter set yet?
Sorry, this doesn't answer my question. What I am asking is whether or not the blade of blood is lasting 1 round, or 2 rounds?
It lasts 1 round, and you know it. There should be few, if any, instances where I discharged it without noting that I had been cast in the same round. Stop wasting my time with your theatrics. Say "In this round, you cast Blade of Blood, but it lasted 2 rounds, and we both know it only lasts 1 round, since the CL of the wand is 1."
but as of the last posted version, it was not legal ...
So? Use one of the less blatently overpowered versions, like the original that I made up in about 10 minutes, that still beat the CR 5 encounters, instead of showing your bias.
Hey Meyer's, have you been put up against the CR 7 encounter set yet?
Kinda ... as posted off the Orc link, there seem to be issues with the first encounter in "Kobold Fun", I win 2 1/2 out of 5 in the Desert Fun encounter.
So? Use one of the less blatently overpowered versions, like the original that I made up in about 10 minutes, that still beat the CR 5 encounters, instead of showing your bias.
Ditto on that for the druid. It wasn't until well after I had posted a very simple no consumable at all build that worked that I added on the "Meyer can ignore this" padding factor of mega consumables. I still think the druid is the only one to defeat the origional cave without spending a copper and ending at full hp. He also does it in the fewest number of rounds.
If we have to we can make a real scoring and link thread that just points to this one. I'm fine with that.
Ditto on that for the druid. It wasn't until well after I had posted a very simple no consumable at all build that worked that I added on the "Meyer can ignore this" padding factor of mega consumables. I still think the druid is the only one to defeat the origional cave without spending a copper and ending at full hp. He also does it in the fewest number of rounds.
If we have to we can make a real scoring and link thread that just points to this one. I'm fine with that.
I suggested about 15-20 pages ago that someone else start a new thread ... and take over maintaining the first page/etc ... so far, no one has ...
As others have posted previously, quoted from CA p.151,
"An effigy's creator can command it if the effigy is within 60 feet and can see and hear him." The effigy needs to be able to both see and hear you for you to command it.
Ah, thanks for posting the text. I guess I misread that. I thought the creator had to be able to see/hear the effigy, which made more sense to me. Oh, well. That doesn't change anything, but thanks for setting me straight (and sorry to M.W.).
(I also think the intent of effigy is pretty clearly "drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels and lose the class abilities along with them", but whatever. I'm also not sure having more than two half-dragon templates leads to a legitimate base creature ;) Also your monsters have BAB 0, since effigies have BAB equal to 3/4 HD: it probably doesn't make much difference though.)
Well, it is clearly stated that Extraordinary abilities that aren't based on Con are kept, so I keep them no matter what (and since that's what I'm using, good for me).
I'm not too concerned with the 'more than two half-x' templates. There is nowhere in RAW that says that a creature may only have zero, one, or two, and I'm pretty sure there's reference to a diluted line 'breeding true' and yielding a half-x, so the 'half' isn't even completely accurate.
Yes, my monsters have BAB 0. Great, isn't it. :D They are only relying on their massive strength and have no combat expertise - I love it! :D
I find your effigy build very interesting. However, I do not believe an effigy qualifies for class abilities, as a creature with an intelligence score less then 3 (an effigy has a score of 0) can not qualify for class levels thus could not qualify for the ability. For example an effigy of a 2nd level Druid could not gain the classes "Woodland Stride" ability as the prerequisite is being a 2nd level druid (which the effigy is not).
I am however open to opposing views on the subject.
As far as I can see he isn't stacking death knell, he is just casting it multiple times for different spells. I think he could actually just cast one and then do all his buffing.
I didn't look through it real closely, but thats what it looks like to me.
If that's what he's doing, that's totally cool. I agree that he could just do it once and do his buffing if he can get all the buffs done before duration runs out (seems likely).
I also don't understand the multi-day casting stuff. I was expecting in Full Moon that even the DMM cleric would be only having routine buffs on, ie the kind you cast every day. Persistent only gets you 24 hours. If the spell is already 24 hours it can be extended and you can do tricks with every other day doing things, maybe that's it. I'll read it more closely next time and see if it makes sense.
Regarding Fall: The FAQ quote still gives 3 seconds to fall 200 feet (16+48+80), which is enough time to get a partial action, I believe.
Readying a Charge: I also agree that's ridiculous, but fine, I only defeat 4 CR 7 encounters and 1 CR 5 encounters, rather than 5 CR 7 encounters. Hey Meyer's, have you been put up against the CR 7 encounter set yet?
What do you mean by a partial action? Immediate...sure that flies at any table (it's how feather fall works).
Readied action? Yes, you can interrupt the "dropping" action with it, and it takes place whenever your ready conditions say it does. Others? Depends on your GM. Looks like it is moot though if you can't charge so we'll give you 4 of 5 in CR7 and 100% on CR5....I figure the large elemental isn't a serious challenge for you.
I admit that your build is overpowered
Now I just need to understand it. Can you elaborate on the two days of buffing for those of us who are slow of mind?Also, before I post the level 7 version of Hubert, what is the group consensus on how different classes that grant Rebuke/Turn Undead stack? The Complete Guide to Turning offers a decent overview of it with suggestions, but I don't think the rules are actually very clear.
The way it works with PRC's (eg sacred exorcist+cleric) is that they stack - you get a higher effective cleric level but no more turns/day.
The way it works with different kinds of turning (eg, fire domain) is they don't stack, they're each independent (sacred exorcist wouldn't advance the abilty to destroy water or rebuke fire creatures, but a PRC that explicitly advanced fire domain power would....)
There are two classes that turn in the PHB - paladin and cleric. They also stack, they don't add (a level 4 paladin turns as a L1 cleric. A level 4 cleric turns as a L4 cleric. A level 4 paladin/level 4 cleric turns as a level 5 cleric)
So in my book the intent is clear - multiple turn undead classes stack, they don't add. They advance turning level but not turn attempts.
Different kinds of turns add but don't stack. You get a separate turn attempt pool for each, but only turn undead can power most divine feats and only levels that provide the power that gave the unusual turn ability advance it for how many hitdice can be affected.
Not to mention that his DR10 (which spell is giving that? I don't see favorable sacrifice) is going to mean the elemental doesn't really do damage anyway.
Confirmed DMM cleric can beat L5 encounter easily. He didn't get sucked up until round 5, which is after the large elementals are done with whirlwind, and he can fly well enough with boots of the divine to kill it before the spell wears out, probably, even if he can't somehow otherwise reach it while it plays flyby tag.
Not to mention that his DR10 (which spell is giving that? I don't see favorable sacrifice) is going to mean the elemental doesn't really do damage anyway.
The Channeled Divine Shield spell . ..
Yes, my monsters have BAB 0. Great, isn't it. :D They are only relying on their massive strength and have no combat expertise - I love it! :D
Ah, the last version I saw of your monsters (post 2778) had their BAB listed as 19 - but as I said, I suspected it wouldn't matter (given their Str).
Show
I think this one will make you-all happier. Bela5 loses 2, wins 2 and squeaks out of the final encounter with a crit before he runs out of translocations and javelins. The two city encounters were the hardest. He really wasn't a match for his former party members.
Perhaps everyone saying these are CR6 encounters has something to it.
In this version he waits till his rage/translocation bracelets reset before going into the forest.
Full moon CR5 total resources 1306.5gp
Encounter 1 (for scoring purposes, failure, but he does escape with his life and is helpful)
I think this one will make you-all happier. Bela5 loses 2, wins 2 and squeaks out of the final encounter with a crit before he runs out of translocations and javelins. The two city encounters were the hardest. He really wasn't a match for his former party members.
Perhaps everyone saying these are CR6 encounters has something to it.
In this version he waits till his rage/translocation bracelets reset before going into the forest.
Full moon CR5 total resources 1306.5gp
Encounter 1 (for scoring purposes, failure, but he does escape with his life and is helpful)
Show
Bela enters the city, accepts peacebonding and stables his horse.
He collects his pay and enters the tavern with Elmo. He has used
no resources yet today, he doesn’t do long duration buffs. His
reach weapons are in his room at the inn. His tower shield is
unreadied while drinking in the tavern.
In the Tavern, Elmo changes form and goes berserk.
Init Elmo +1 Bela +1 50%, Elmo wins init.
2 claws +13 vs AC18, 2 hits hit (160%) for 25
bite +11 vs AC18 miss (230%)
Bela hits elmo with hexblade curse, +4 vs dc11 Elmo saves 70%
Bela readies shield and attacks with armor spikes, defensive, expertise5
(don't add this attack to dice pool because he can't injure Elmo with spikes)
Bela shouts "Get out, close the door and barricade it. I'll hold him off!"
commoners withdraw screaming
Elmo 62 Bela 19
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13 vs AC32 hit once 250% for 12
bite +11 vs AC32 miss 255%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, holding Elmo in place
Commoners are mostly out of the tavern
Elmo 62 Bela 7
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13/bite+11 vs AC32 miss 280%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, holding Elmo in place
commoners exit tavern and shut door.
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13/bite+11 vs AC32 miss 305%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive then backs 20' toward window,
Bela makes sure a table or something blocks charge lane
Elmo AOO miss 315% move and attack 325% miss
Bela either withdraws if at 10' or attacks if at 5', we'll assume 5'
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, then moves toward window, translocating through it an extra 10'
Elmo final AOO miss 335%
At this point, Elmo spends a couple rounds busting out of the tavern and starts rampaging
on city streets, but people have had warning to flee. Bela runs for his horse in the stables,
and once mounted starts healing up. If he's unlucky, Elmo might get an AOO on him or horse as he flees,
but he won't exit the stables till he can take a hit. (2 charges clw). Lets say he has to heal another
13 damage from that on him or horse. Net/net, 10 charges clw just to get back to normal
Bela will join the city guard in trying to subdue Elmo, probably using splash weapons from horseback
and backing off/healing if Elmo charges him. He doesn't do well enough to get an offer of work
from the city guard, but his efforts probably reduced the bloodbath.
We'll assume he's used tanglefoot bag, all splash weapons and ~20 charges clw wand (430.5gp)
Bela enters the city, accepts peacebonding and stables his horse.
He collects his pay and enters the tavern with Elmo. He has used
no resources yet today, he doesn’t do long duration buffs. His
reach weapons are in his room at the inn. His tower shield is
unreadied while drinking in the tavern.
In the Tavern, Elmo changes form and goes berserk.
Init Elmo +1 Bela +1 50%, Elmo wins init.
2 claws +13 vs AC18, 2 hits hit (160%) for 25
bite +11 vs AC18 miss (230%)
Bela hits elmo with hexblade curse, +4 vs dc11 Elmo saves 70%
Bela readies shield and attacks with armor spikes, defensive, expertise5
(don't add this attack to dice pool because he can't injure Elmo with spikes)
Bela shouts "Get out, close the door and barricade it. I'll hold him off!"
commoners withdraw screaming
Elmo 62 Bela 19
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13 vs AC32 hit once 250% for 12
bite +11 vs AC32 miss 255%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, holding Elmo in place
Commoners are mostly out of the tavern
Elmo 62 Bela 7
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13/bite+11 vs AC32 miss 280%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, holding Elmo in place
commoners exit tavern and shut door.
Elmo full attacks, 2 claws +13/bite+11 vs AC32 miss 305%
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive then backs 20' toward window,
Bela makes sure a table or something blocks charge lane
Elmo AOO miss 315% move and attack 325% miss
Bela either withdraws if at 10' or attacks if at 5', we'll assume 5'
Bela attacks with full expertise/defensive, then moves toward window, translocating through it an extra 10'
Elmo final AOO miss 335%
At this point, Elmo spends a couple rounds busting out of the tavern and starts rampaging
on city streets, but people have had warning to flee. Bela runs for his horse in the stables,
and once mounted starts healing up. If he's unlucky, Elmo might get an AOO on him or horse as he flees,
but he won't exit the stables till he can take a hit. (2 charges clw). Lets say he has to heal another
13 damage from that on him or horse. Net/net, 10 charges clw just to get back to normal
Bela will join the city guard in trying to subdue Elmo, probably using splash weapons from horseback
and backing off/healing if Elmo charges him. He doesn't do well enough to get an offer of work
from the city guard, but his efforts probably reduced the bloodbath.
We'll assume he's used tanglefoot bag, all splash weapons and ~20 charges clw wand (430.5gp)
@BetaSquirrell
I find your effigy build very interesting. However, I do not believe an effigy qualifies for class abilities, as a creature with an intelligence score less then 3 (an effigy has a score of 0) can not qualify for class levels thus could not qualify for the ability. For example an effigy of a 2nd level Druid could not gain the classes "Woodland Stride" ability as the prerequisite is being a 2nd level druid (which the effigy is not).
I am however open to opposing views on the subject.
The way I see it, the Effigy specifically says it retains Ex abilities not based on Con. If we take a class feature, the Effigy is specifically told to retain it. We might have class levels, we might not, but the abilities remain.
I notice that you state that the prereq for certain abilities is class levels (and only class levels). What about trapfinding then? It is clearly stated that only Rogues gain trapfinding, so what about Spellthief 20? Rogue states that he doesn't gain it.
Or, to be more accurate, what about sneak attack? It is stated, "a rogue deals more damage". Does this mean only Rogues have S.A.?
Full moon CR5 Take two Consumables 1305.5gp
I think this one will make you-all happier. Bela5 loses 2, wins 2 and squeaks out of the final encounter with a crit before he runs out of translocations and javelins. The two city encounters were the hardest. He really wasn't a match for his former party members.
Perhaps everyone saying these are CR6 encounters has something to it.
Actually, I would like to see your character win more ... or at least someone putting another winning non-caster through more of these mini-adventures. But, I would rather we get the fights right than a false win.
If you had your silver weapon available at the beginning of the fight, or if you were on top of your horse, the werebear would be much easier than it is. But as it stands, this is why we were saying that the EL of the encounters are higher than the CR.
Encounter 1:
You might want to adjust your description of the full-moon mini-adventure, as when you copy/pasted stuff, you lost a few words. Specifically, you said something about "after 3 rounds of not hitting, the werebear will attempt a grapple once, before going back to normal attacks".
You have Bela not getting hit for 4 rounds. I think your threshold was at 3 rounds. This means that you are probably going to be grappled (damaged), however, you can anklet out of the grapple.
Bela spurs mount +11 vs dc15 105% and has it gallop away 160' (180' total)
Remember that spurring deals 1hp damage to the beast.
Round 3
elemental moves -ready+ AOO go off +8/8 vs AC20 hit once (214) for 30-5-=25
round 4
elemental moves -ready+ AOO go off +8/8 vs AC20 hit once 304 for 25
Why is the elemental behaving so that instead of you taking 2 slam attacks and hitting it once, it takes two attacks and hits you once?
enlarge person for the horse
Remind me again as to why the horse is using a potion of enlarge person. I think this is meant to be the mage armor one.
Bela rages, tosses stone +10 vs AC18 miss 434
mouther spits at Bela +4 vs AC7 1205 hits for 2
bela +13 vs DC18 fail 440% blind 2r
Mouther closes 10'
mouther 42 Bela 41b2 horse 30
Mouther moves 10' (move)
Spits (Free)
and doesn't attack?
mouther full attacks horse 6x+4 vs AC18 hit 2x1415 for 2 dmg
2x improved grab +3 vs 10 15%, 30% fail twice
mouther 5' step back and spits and horse +4 vs 1485 hit for 3
horse save +7 vs AC18 fail 100% blind 1r
outher 35 Bela 41b1 horse 25b1
Would it make more sense to spit before you full attack? If it works, then the opponent is much easier to hit with the normal attacks?
Why is the horse only blind 1 round? was this a roll, or are we still using average durations?
Bela, alarmed, draws wand of prot evil and casts it on self
D1 and D2 try 5' back+suggestions, which fail.
Question, if a caster did something similar, would we question why it knows to use prot evil (know: arcana or Spellcraft) to prevent the charm from happening further, or would it be that since they have the wand, they know all instances in which to use it? (this is a question, if you say it is ok, then I withdraw this question).
There are two classes that turn in the PHB - paladin and cleric. They also stack, they don't add (a level 4 paladin turns as a L1 cleric. A level 4 cleric turns as a L4 cleric. A level 4 paladin/level 4 cleric turns as a level 5 cleric)
Is this actually stated somewhere?
Edit: Nevermind, I found it.
In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3.
The way it works with different kinds of turning (eg, fire domain) is they don't stack, they're each independent (sacred exorcist wouldn't advance the abilty to destroy water or rebuke fire creatures, but a PRC that explicitly advanced fire domain power would....)
Different kinds of turns add but don't stack. You get a separate turn attempt pool for each, but only turn undead can power most divine feats and only levels that provide the power that gave the unusual turn ability advance it for how many hitdice can be affected.
So if I took Turn Undead with Hubert's cleric levels, and Rebuke Undead with his Dread Necro, he'd have two separate pools, but the classes wouldn't stack? But if I took Rebuke with cleric, they'd stack, but he'd only have one pool?
The way I see it, the Effigy specifically says it retains Ex abilities not based on Con. If we take a class feature, the Effigy is specifically told to retain it. We might have class levels, we might not, but the abilities remain.
I notice that you state that the prereq for certain abilities is class levels (and only class levels). What about trapfinding then? It is clearly stated that only Rogues gain trapfinding, so what about Spellthief 20? Rogue states that he doesn't gain it.
Or, to be more accurate, what about sneak attack? It is stated, "a rogue deals more damage". Does this mean only Rogues have S.A.?
This is a separate case entirely. The entry on the Spellthief class explicitly states that it gains sneak attack and and trap finding at the appropriate level. Even in the cases of Prestige classes, they state "gains _____ ability as a (Base class)"
Even if an effigy does keep the base creatures class abilities (which is still under contention) it would not be able to use them. As they all have a class and level requirement.
Here is a better example, a Barbarians "Uncanny Dodge" ability, it states "At 2nd level, a barbarian has the ability to...". Here we have two clauses 1. Being second level and 2. being a Barbarian. the effigy meets neither of the requirements. So, even if it kept the ability from the base creature it could not use it.
Here is a better example, a Barbarians "Uncanny Dodge" ability, it states "At 2nd level, a barbarian has the ability to...". Here we have two clauses 1. Being second level and 2. being a Barbarian. the effigy meets neither of the requirements. So, even if it kept the ability from the base creature it could not use it.
I think that BetaSquirrells contention is that by his reading of thing, the effigy does not lose class levels, only HD/etc ...
I tired to address that in my first post but I do not think I phrased it properly. Creatures with INT less then three can not have class levels. An effigy has an INT score of zero, therefore it can not possess class levels.
@Meyer_William
I tired to address that in my first post but I do not think I phrased it properly. Creatures with INT less then three can not have class levels. An effigy has an INT score of zero, therefore it can not possess class levels.
Ok ... i wasn't aware of that ... looks like that effigy build cannot perform as shown, so is currently invalid.
@Meyer_William
I tired to address that in my first post but I do not think I phrased it properly. Creatures with INT less then three can not have class levels. An effigy has an INT score of zero, therefore it can not possess class levels.
I'd like to see where it says that- don't get me wrong, I agree and it's the way I always thought it was. However, I have yet to find where it actually says that creatures with less than Int 3 can't take class levels.
Channelled Divine Shield gives DR 10/Evil all day rather than DR 10/magic. I was using favourable sacrifice for Energy Resistances, Spell Resistance, and the fact it freed up another persist, since it was hours/level
They also stack, they don't add (a level 4 paladin turns as a L1 cleric. A level 4 cleric turns as a L4 cleric. A level 4 paladin/level 4 cleric turns as a level 5 cleric)
As for turning, I don't think so.
Example 1: Class Text for Classes that Grant their own turning pool, and don't stack.
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above).
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
Turn Undead (Su):When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Command Undead (Su): When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.
Rebuke Undead: Like an evil cleric, an ur-priest of second level or higher can rebuke undead. He uses his ur-priest level as the cleric level for determining the success and damage...(see turning in PHB pg 159)
Example Pool 2: Classes that Require and Progress Turning:
Levels of War Priest stack with any of the characters cleric or paladin levels when turning or rebuking undead.
A rsoP adds his radiant servant levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead.
Example Pool 3: Classes that progress turning, but also grant it if a character doesn't already have it.
Sacred exorcists can turn undead as clerics do. If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level.
An apostle of peace can turn undead as a good cleric of his apostle of peace level would. If he is also a cleric (or paladin), he also adds his apostle of peace levels to his effective cleric levels to determine his turning capacity.
Example Pool 4: Classes that progress turning, but do not grant it.
Only Deadgrim from Magic of Eberron that I could find, and I don’t have that book.
That being said, there are clear text differences in all those example pools. You may not like the way those rules are written, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore them.
Regarding All day Buffs: Persist makes them last 24 hours. Extend increases that to 48. Persist and extend do stack, RAW, because they made a special exception for stacking Maximize and Empower (A Maximized, Empowered Fireball deals 60+(0.5*10d6). They didn't make that exception for anything else, so all other metamagics can be stacked.
And, not only is it raw ... but CustServ agrees with it too ... (incident number 080115-000551) ... when I asked this, I didn't mention DMM, cause I didn't want to muddy the waters and it didn't affect anything either way. I would have posted this earlier, but there didn't seem to be any contention on its legality.
What is the interaction between Persist Spell and Extend Spell?
For instance, a level 20 mage would like a persisted/extended mage armor, so he memorizes it as 8th level spell.
What would be the duration of this spell?
You can choose the order that the two metamagic feats take effect so I assume you would use the Persistant spell first then Extended spell which would make the spell last for 48 hours.
As for turning, I don't think so.
Example 1: Class Text for Classes that Grant their own turning pool, and don't stack.
You gave cleric and paladin as an example here. However, that is incorrect. From the PHB p.59,
"In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character's paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3. Thus, a 5th-level paladin / 4th-level cleric turns undead as a 6th-level cleric."
Oh, and here's a reference on casting time for spell-like abilities matching that of the spell, from the PHB p.180,
"Usually a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name... A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
OF course, it's those spells with duration in rounds (and DMM since you get to do that to spells above 3rd level) that break the game. Can you imagine persisting the spell equivalent of "Timeless Body?"
I'd like to see where it says that- don't get me wrong, I agree and it's the way I always thought it was. However, I have yet to find where it actually says that creatures with less than Int 3 can't take class levels.
Its actually rather hidden across several sources. Savage Species is the only book I know of that goes out and says it (page 9). The Monster Manual mentions that in order to gain class levels a monster must have an intelligence score (chaper 4 page 290), meaning creatures with intelligence zero do not qualify (chapter 7 page 312 under Nonabilites). I believe the The Dungeon Masters Guide goes into it as well, though I do not have a copy on hand to check.
However, from the Monster Manual alone it proves at the very least an effigy (INT 0 thus non-ability) can not have class levels.
Its actually rather hidden across several sources. Savage Species is the only book I know of that goes out and says it (page 9). The Monster Manual mentions that in order to gain class levels a monster must have an intelligence score (chaper 4 page 290), meaning creatures with intelligence zero do not qualify (chapter 7 page 312 under Nonabilites). I believe the The Dungeon Masters Guide goes into it as well, though I do not have a copy on hand to check.
However, from the Monster Manual alone it proves at the very least an effigy (INT 0 thus non-ability) can not have class levels.
Thanks!
Castys Cousin
Silverbrow Human(dragonblooded)
actual size is the smallest on the Height and Weight Chart(4'10" and 120lbs)
Generic Spellcaster(Arcane) 5/ Incantatrix 1
Attributes:
8 Str
12 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
14 Wis(13+1 lvl)
8 Cha
Feats:
Heighten Spell (human Bonus)
Earth Sense (flaw)
Earth Spell(Spellcaster Bonus)
Empower Spell (flaw)
1st Lvl Fiery Burst(reserve)
3rd lvl Versatile Caster
5th lvl Practical Metamagic(Empower Spell) (Spellcaster bonus)
Iron Will..from location
6th lvl Arcane Thesis(Scorching Ray)
Energy Substitution(Sonic)(Incantatrix bonus)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow
Equipment
Magic items
-2x Arcanist Gloves 1000gp(+2 CL 1st lvl spell 4/day)
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day empower 1st lvl spell)1500gp.... worn first
-Otyugh Hole(legendary location, Complete Scoundrel)gives Feat: Iron Will, permanently...3000gp value
-2x Incense of Concentration(250gp each.... gives 1 extra 1st lvl Spell Slot 24 hour duration)
-Healing Belt 750gp
-Memento Magica(MIC) 1500gp like 1st lvl Pearl of Power for Spontaneous caster
450gp Wand of Alter Self(5 chgs)
150gp Wand of Mage Armor(10 chgs)
150gp Wand of Shield(10 chgs)
1125gp Wand of Fly(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Heroics(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Invisibility(5 chgs)
150gp pack of Daylight Pellets (Magic item Compendium) ..... as Daylight spell 10 rounds, 3d4 pellets per pack(7 pellets ave)
11175gp
-2x Arcanist Gloves 1000gp(+2 CL 1st lvl spell 4/day)
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day empower 1st lvl spell)1500gp.... worn first
-Otyugh Hole(legendary location, Complete Scoundrel)gives Feat: Iron Will, permanently...3000gp value
-2x Incense of Concentration(250gp each.... gives 1 extra 1st lvl Spell Slot 24 hour duration)
-Healing Belt 750gp
-Memento Magica(MIC) 1500gp like 1st lvl Pearl of Power for Spontaneous caster
450gp Wand of Alter Self(5 chgs)
150gp Wand of Mage Armor(10 chgs)
150gp Wand of Shield(10 chgs)
1125gp Wand of Fly(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Heroics(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Invisibility(5 chgs)
150gp pack of Daylight Pellets (Magic item Compendium) ..... as Daylight spell 10 rounds, 3d4 pellets per pack(7 pellets ave)
11175gp
Commoner 100. Takes Martial Study feat for all relevant maneuvers. These feats improve the construct's attack abilities, so they are kept as per the wording. Commoner levels die, but the feats are expressly told to remain. The only thing I think might be IL issues, but since the feats actually give you the abilities, losing the feats wouldn't be so bad - I keep the abilities after all.
Are there issues with that? If not, I'll update my build.
Also, what would you say if I cast Rudimentary Intelligence (From a Dragon Mag) on these things (the ones with swordsage levels). They have intelligence now, would the class levels come back? Were they merely suppressed, or wiped?
Personally, I don't think you'd retain anything at all from the lost class levels, including feats gained every 3 levels. IMO, if you lose the "hit dice", you lose all benefits from them.
I think the thing you should focus on is making sure your character is able to control the effigies, and doesn't die.
But Feral Death Blow was so cool!I guess I'll just scrounge the templates. This guy isn't done, I'll probably update him over the weekend.
Next Tactic: Hordes of Str 100 rats...
You gave cleric and paladin as an example here. However, that is incorrect. From the PHB p.59,
"In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character's paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3. Thus, a 5th-level paladin / 4th-level cleric turns undead as a 6th-level cleric."
Good point.
Pity it doesn't mention stacking Dread Necromancer and Ur-Priest, too? And pity it doesn't mention stacking cleric and Blackguard, either, which you'd think they'd have put in.
I would try to shy away from a build that relies on effigies as its primary source of power for several reasons.
1.An Effigy is an “acquired” template so according to the Monster Manual (Pg. 219) it would be applied to an already existing creature (the creature would have to gain it at some point rather than having it at creation). Its much like the zombie, lich, vampires, warbeast...etc. As opposed to "Inherited" templates which effect a creature in its conception. So, from my interpretation of RAW, you would have to some how convince this godly creature that being a mindless robot is in its best interest (good luck) and then apply the template.
I know this does not seem to fallow logic, however the Monster Manual seems to favor this interpretation. It is also entirely possible I misunderstood a critical part on applying templates, so I accept that I may be mistaken on this point.
2.This discussion is on overpowered casters not “overpowered badly worded templates\pieces of equipment”, as any character could buy this mythical “God” effigy so it dose not really show how your character is better.
I do not mean for this to come off as an attack on you or your character, I personally like the concept. However due to the poor wording in the effigy template (it really should be an inherited template), it is virtually unusable with out a DM fiat.
I believe you posted a discussion an effigy build on the CO boards, and I would be more than happy to move the discussion there if any one feels that this is detracting from this one.
Good point.
Pity it doesn't mention stacking Dread Necromancer and Ur-Priest, too? And pity it doesn't mention stacking cleric and Blackguard, either, which you'd think they'd have put in.
Not really... it's a PHB quote. It doesn't surprise me that they would fail to mention Blackguard, since that's in the DMG as an optional rules item and that chapter of the PHB is meant to be a fairly self-contained guide to character creation. It's obvious why they didn't mention Dread Necromancer and Ur-Priest (they didn't exist when that chapter was written).
The clarification on how cleric and paladin levels stack implies, at least to me, that this is the default interaction which should be assumed for other classes that grant the same type of turning, unless they explicitly say otherwise. I agree with solbergb that two different types of turning / rebuking grant separate pools.
@BetaSquirrell
I would try to shy away from a build that relies on effigies as its primary source of power for several reasons.
1.An Effigy is an “acquired” template so according to the Monster Manual (Pg. 219) it would be applied to an already existing creature (the creature would have to gain it at some point rather than having it at creation).
This is pretty silly. Effigies are constructs made to simulate a creature. They are not a creature converted into a construct.
This is pretty silly. Effigies are constructs made to simulate a creature. They are not a creature converted into a construct.
I completely agree with you, however the actual the game play mechanics support this view. Which is why I stated that it should be an "inherited" template rather than an "acquired" one. Its a clear cut case of when RAW fails, and DM rule 0 comes into play, in order to solve the situation.
For the purposes of this discussion how ever, we must come to define how the effigy template is applied, and RAW dictates it must be applied to a preexisting creature, as ridiculous as that sounds.
I am always open to new views and ideas on the subject, however form a CO stand point RAW seems to take precedent.
The "flavor text" cannot be totally ignored, here. I'd say that overrides any sillyness with the template type. I really don't care to continue this line of discussion, myself. It's like arguing over the definition of "the".
I can respect that, though I would argue its no more silly then repeated template stacking on an effigy. I will let the matter rest for now and wait for more people to weigh in on the issue.
I can respect that, though I would argue its no more silly then repeated template stacking on an effigy. I will let the matter rest for now and wait for more people to weigh in on the issue.
Except that there is absolutely nothing stated anywhere prohibiting adding templates to an effigy creature, or even indicating you shouldn't be able to. And template stacking is itself completely legal. There is an entire section of Savage Species dedicated to how to do it properly.
What you're talking about is a totally different type of thing. There, we have two obviously contradictory things stated about something. One is clearly ridiculous, so the rational thing to do is go with the one that makes sense.
Edit: Another thing: It is obvious to both of us that your line of reasoning is silly, despite what the RAW says. However, your line of reasoning also does absolutely nothing to prohibit someone from making an effigy of a "godlike" being, from a RAW standpoint. It is still entirely legal.
So, if your argument is that you can't make an effigy of a powerful creature per the RAW, it fails. You can.
If you're appealing to "common sense", and a large portion of your argument is obviously silly and not common sense, it fails in that way also.
I really think the entire thing is ridiculous and pointless. What you're essentially saying is that the "DM" should outlaw this kind of abuse based on a very twisted reading of a part of the RAW that is obviously silly and contradictory to the entire definition of the effigy template. However, even this isn't enough. He then has to use "DM fiat" to even enforce this interpretation, since it still doesn't actually prohibit the abuse itself.
It's like arguing over the definition of "the".
Or the word 'is', thank you Mr Clinton.
My point is that if some one wants to use a exploit in the rules as written, thats fine (as far as optimization goes). However you should not be able to choose which rules you follow and which you do not, especially in a discussion that is trying to compare the "Power" between different builds. It skews the results.
I am not trying to say that the effigy template should be banned. I am simply trying to point out how due to its many ambiguities it makes any real comparisons in power almost impossible.
If you would like sources and pages I referenced for my standpoint I would be more then happy to post them.
However you should not be able to choose which rules you follow and which you do not, especially in a discussion that is trying to compare the "Power" between different builds. It skews the results.
It makes no difference. His build is entirely legal, even according to your interpretation of the rules. He doesn't have to ignore anything. Hence your argument is pointless.
I am not trying to say that the effigy template should be banned. I am simply trying to point out how due to its many ambiguities it makes any real comparisons in power almost impossible.
I agree with you that the effigy build really doesn't demonstrate anything as far as the power of spellcasters in general, and so is not very useful for the purposes of this thread. The entirety of its power is hinged on an oversight in the rules which would almost certainly be house-ruled into reasonableness in any real game. Hence why I never really paid much attention to the original Mr. Roboto thread, except as a humorous diversion. It falls into the same category as Pun-Pun, the Hulking Hurler, and getting free wishes via "chaining" wishes from a Candle of Invocation, as far as I'm concerned.
It makes no difference. His build is entirely legal, even according to your interpretation of the rules. He doesn't have to ignore anything. Hence your argument is pointless.
Not entirely, from the rules as written (not my personal belief), he would still have to convert said base creature into an effigy. A near impossible task for a character given the amount of template stacking.
I agree with you that the effigy build really doesn't demonstrate anything as far as the power of spellcasters in general, and so is not very useful for the purposes of this thread. The entirety of its power is hinged on an oversight in the rules which would almost certainly be house-ruled into reasonableness in any real game. Hence why I never really paid much attention to the original Mr. Roboto thread, except as a humorous diversion. It falls into the same category as Pun-Pun, the Hulking Hurler, and getting free wishes via "chaining" wishes from a Candle of Invocation, as far as I'm concerned.
For the sake of this thread, I will consider tabled for now (with no definitive conclusion). If anyone wishes to continue on the subject I am more then ready, however I would recommend starting a new thread as it has little to do with this one.
he wins all encounters.... and just casts spells
:D
can we run Scorchy the Spellcaster
he wins all encounters.... and just casts spells
:D
Just a note on Split Ray: it adds one ray, it doesn't double the number of rays. Your scorching ray damage should still be very high, but not quite what you've got listed (empowered scorching ray at CL 11+ averages to 63, split ray scorching ray averages to 56, split ray empowered scorching ray averages to 84).
Thus, at low levels, everyone has LOW hp. Obviously. I just didn't connect it with blasting actually working on stuff.
Wow. That reminds me: The reason hp damage is sub-par later on is because everyone has so much HP on higher levels.
Thus, at low levels, everyone has LOW hp. Obviously. I just didn't connect it with blasting actually working on stuff.
I was looking at a kobold sorc build using the greater rite of draconic passage to get me up to an even caster level (one of the annoying things about building spontcasters for this challenge is that the gauntlets are all at odd CRs), and using Fiery Burst and/or Arcane Thesis to crank up my caster level for scorching ray, similarly to Scorchy. I had trouble qualifying for the required feats at the right levels though, as I personally disagree that the Earth Spell + Heighten early qualification trick works.
It'll be interesting to see how Scorchy goes though, there's a fairly varied array of gauntlets by now.
There are lots of good mounts in the AEG, and one could price any slave one can think of using the formula from Lords of Madness(cost=(CR,minimum 1)Squared x100gp)on page 101.
These sources of troops that can be bought out right are not the only ones.
I know that NPC services are not available to be bought, but I see several builds that depend on Mounts and Minions.Im just suggesting a better class of minions.
I feel that this would favor Casters, since the question that arises with slaves is how one maintains control.
Trained Mounts are easy, and as good for the Skill users as they are for Magic users.Intelligent slaves are harder to control, and I think the Magic users have a real edge there.
Here are some CR 1 slaves culled from the SRD:
Air Elemental, Small
Animated Object, Small
Darkmantle
Devil, Lemure
Dwarf, Duergar
Earth Elemental, Small
Elf, Drow
Fire Elemental, Small
Ghoul
Ghoul, Lacedon
Giant Ant, Worker
Giant Bee
Gnoll
Gnome, Svirfneblin
Grimlock
Homunculus
Horse, Heavy
Horse, Light
Hyena
Krenshar
Lizardfolk
Manta Ray
Monstrous Centipede, Large
Monstrous Scorpion, Medium
Monstrous Spider, Medium
Mule
Octopus
Pseudodragon
Shark, Medium
Skeleton, Wolf
Snake, Medium Viper
Sprite, Grig
Sprite, Nixie
Squid
Swarm, Spider
Troglodyte
Warhorse, Light
Water Elemental,Small
Wolf
Zombie, Troglodyte
Ok, I eliminated some animals before I realized that they where good for comparison ,but mostly you have elementals, humanoids , monsterous humanoids, undead and animals.I see spells, and Domain Powers as ways to control most of these. Also, my favorite multi use resource, Turning!
You see a Skeleton has CR 1 at 3 HD and Cr 8 at 20. A Zombi has CR1 at 4 Hd and maxes out at CR 6 at 20. Pick almost any potential slave and apply an undead template, and you have yer self an undead beat stick, one that almost any cleric can control with a minimum of invested resources.In fact, 100gp buys you more HD in than you can Rebuke/Command at one go.
I see a cleric with some Turning Feats/Domains, using Command Undead via Divine Magician.Low CR/HD Outsider Corpse Creatures fill his small Rebuke/Command pool, focusing on at will SLAs.
His Command Undead spells should have Meat Shields, Transportation, and the ilk.If you never want to make your own( its a theoretical challenge,right?) a Dread Necro might be better.
Or a Cloistered Cleric with Elemental Domains, trading the Knowledge for Divine Magician.Who knows?
No, Im not going to make build(I frankly dont understand the way the rolls are generated for the run throughs), but I am interested to see if anyone else will try out this formula.
Except that there is absolutely nothing stated anywhere prohibiting adding templates to an effigy creature, or even indicating you shouldn't be able to. And template stacking is itself completely legal. There is an entire section of Savage Species dedicated to how to do it properly.
What you're talking about is a totally different type of thing. There, we have two obviously contradictory things stated about something. One is clearly ridiculous, so the rational thing to do is go with the one that makes sense.
Edit: Another thing: It is obvious to both of us that your line of reasoning is silly, despite what the RAW says. However, your line of reasoning also does absolutely nothing to prohibit someone from making an effigy of a "godlike" being, from a RAW standpoint. It is still entirely legal.
So, if your argument is that you can't make an effigy of a powerful creature per the RAW, it fails. You can.
If you're appealing to "common sense", and a large portion of your argument is obviously silly and not common sense, it fails in that way also.
I really think the entire thing is ridiculous and pointless. What you're essentially saying is that the "DM" should outlaw this kind of abuse based on a very twisted reading of a part of the RAW that is obviously silly and contradictory to the entire definition of the effigy template. However, even this isn't enough. He then has to use "DM fiat" to even enforce this interpretation, since it still doesn't actually prohibit the abuse itself.
There is no place in the rules that says that humans/dwarfes/elfes have only 2 arms. Also there isn't any place in the rules that says that your character can't say "dsabhsdbfuhdsf" and get +200 to all stats. for 24 hours. Making a character overpowered based in very obscure rules interpretations isn't really going to work in any real game.
And by the way, by that reasoning, Meyer could just go search for all templates that add +0CR to the creatures and add them to their monsters, making all encounters 10 times as hard.
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
There is no place in the rules that says that humans/dwarfes/elfes have only 2 arms. Also there isn't any place in the rules that says that your character can't say "dsabhsdbfuhdsf" and get +200 to all stats. for 24 hours. Making a character overpowered based in very obscure rules interpretations isn't really going to work in any real game.
As someone has already pointed out, template stacking is entirely legal. In fact, it even talks about what a half-this, half-that, half-something else is ... so that is not even objectionable.
And by the way, by that reasoning, Meyer could just go search for all templates that add +0CR to the creatures and add them to their monsters, making all encounters 10 times as hard.
Don't drag me into this ... I have not made any encounters and have not adjsted any of them. Also, remember how few hps my characters have when they win, adding more CR+0s, might be just enough to cause me to lose to everything ... that is not something I relish doing.
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
Kinda, CO has said that a non-dedicated blaster does not scale as well as hp damage, so at higher level (usually the only thing that CO cares about) hp damage < save-or-die.
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
Yes, well... Normally, you'd have a party with you, and this is all very low-level, y'know. A caster needs to be around... what, 10 or so, to AFFORD the spells needed to protect themselves in solo situations. Even here, there are many spells which could knock down/take the target out of combat for, oh, 1-2 rounds. This is huge if you have someone else to deal damage to them during that time. However, in a solo situation, you won't.
That being said, I'm considering trying someone using smart tactics. Invisibility + Fly should get me through all the way to the Hydra, I probably won't even notice the pit trap. That way, I can spend all my resources on the 6-headed thing. I'm not sure on exact tactics there, yet, but concidering I've only spent two of my spells, I should manage.
And by the way, by that reasoning, Meyer could just go search for all templates that add +0CR to the creatures and add them to their monsters, making all encounters 10 times as hard.
Since you don't see how this statement is a contradiction in terms, I am going to point out that Templates that don't Raise the CR of a creature are few and far between. They also normal stack together as I only remember a few that do exist. Dragonborn Template, Necropolitan template, Dungeonbred Monster Template, and Amphibious Creature Template are the only four that I can remember off hand, and cant figure out how to stack them for an increase in power.
Scorchy the Spellcaster
Castys Cousin
Silverbrow Human(dragonblooded)
actual size is the smallest on the Height and Weight Chart(4'10" and 120lbs)
Generic Spellcaster(Arcane) 6
Level 6? What dungeon does your level 6 character want to enter?
What does your level 5 character (without as much gold, without the +5 bonus to init) look like.
Feats:
Split Ray(Spellcaster Bonus)
Bloodline of Fire(regional) (human Bonus)
Spell Themantics (flaw)
Precocious Apprentice (flaw)
1st Lvl Fiery Burst(reserve)
3rd lvl Versatile Caster
5th lvl Practical Metamagic(Split Ray) (Spellcaster bonus)
6th lvl Arcane Thesis(Scorching Ray)
How do you get Split ray? It has a pre-req of 1 metamagic feat?
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day empower 1st lvl spell)1500gp
I assume the spell it empowers is lesser orb of fire? (remember, it can only empower one spell)
-Empowered Spellshard(3/day Empower 2nd lvl Spell)3000gp
Which one are you wearing in the throat slot, this, or the previous one?
450gp Wand of Alter Self(5 chgs)
1125gp Wand of Fly(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Heroics(5 chgs)
450gp Wand of Invisibility(5 chgs)
Page 227 of MIC lists wands with 10 charges minimum. Where do you buy them for less? (Note: You could have had them at level 5 (or earlier), and used 5 of them yourself ... which would not count in the wealth by level chart, but instead just as consumables).
-6xGuard Dogs 150gp....... biggest breeds of thier kind
-2x Riding dog 300gp....... biggest breeds of thier kind
-Light Warhorse 150gp ....... biggest breeds of thier kind
600gp ........................
Biggest breeds of their kind -- is flavor text, right?
[EDIT]: How is buying a herd of dogs (8) different than buying slaves/adepts (magic missile)/longbowmen?
Note: I am not commenting on the mount.
Two green slimes, Dungeon Master's Guide page 76
It might matter so, it is 120 feet back to the sunlight.
For those of us who do not have a DMG, can you post enough about Green Slime for us to participate?
Encounter 3
There is a Ghoul Glyph (Spell Compendium page 105) in the doorway DC 15
Bone kobold sorcerer 5/monk 1 (Cr 5)
Bone Human Feat Rogue 1, Fighter 2
How is a Sorcerer 5 / Monk 1 a CR5 encounter? 6 levels of PC classes is a CR6, also, with the second creature and the auto-fail trap, the EL of this is higher than that.
Please revise the encounter, or adjust the difficulty listing for this.
And as to the 'Effigies are equipment' idea, I think that using products casters developed was a bit of a giveaway that casters had an upper hand (I don't want to suggest that no fighter should drink potions, but when equipment is such a critical portion of the build I think that some acknowledgment should be given to the creator). I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you (because I'm not), but what this build is trying to suggest is:
- Effigies are a powerful tool that can obsolete many encounters.
- My character, a caster, can get effigies easier and faster than any other character
Also, who would sell a Nevermore? Anyone who buys it is probably just a lazy assassin.
Character: Dan the Wannabe Druid
Using revised build for the effigies. Please go back and review it before you read this for complete understanding – you’ll find I have the same success margin. I'm using a different type of effigy though – Fly-N-Die Ravens on Draconic Steroids. No more class levels, just good old-school templates. Also assuming this happens directly after Otto’s Planar Challenge (IE, I have three Nevermores instead of four).
Inside the city, my default command is: “When you hear the command, “Attack!” issued by me, kill anyone who attacks me or looks like they would attack me unless you hear the words, “Don’t Shoot.”
Also, I’m sending the ECL 5 Dan through the CR 7 encounter. It doesn't really matter.
Encounter One
I’ve set my Nevermores outside, sitting on a bench/lamppost/building/tree with direct line of sight to me and within 100’. They have been ordered to come and kill anything that appears to be dangerous at my command. As soon as my pal starts transforming I issue the command.
Reasoning:
Anyway, the Nevermores reach me by the time Round One starts.
Initiative: Nevermores (+10), Me (+8), Elmo (+1)
Nevermore One Flyby Attacks Elmo. I’m not sure, but I’ll assume Elmo gets Attacks of Opportunity. If so, he misses (AC 80). For N-1’s attack, with the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Elmo takes 61 points of damage, and is at 30 hp.
Nevermore Three Flyby Attacks Elmo. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Elmo takes 61 points of damage and dies at -31.
Success
Resources used: None.
I wait for the Watch, then try and get Elmo raised. The Nevermores have since been ordered back across the street, and any patron that thinks intelligent crows killed a freakin’ werebear is crazy….right?
Reasoning:
- He says this is too early, so something is wrong – he might be in danger.
- When he transforms normally, he is peaceful. So the most I’ll get is a warning for having pets inside a tavern.
Anyway, the Nevermores reach me by the time Round One starts.
Initiative: Nevermores (+10), Me (+8), Elmo (+1)
Nevermore One Flyby Attacks Elmo. I’m not sure, but I’ll assume Elmo gets Attacks of Opportunity. If so, he misses (AC 80). For N-1’s attack, with the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Elmo takes 61 points of damage, and is at 30 hp.
Nevermore Three Flyby Attacks Elmo. With the +70 attack modifier, 95% chance of hitting. Elmo takes 61 points of damage and dies at -31.
Success
Resources used: None.
I wait for the Watch, then try and get Elmo raised. The Nevermores have since been ordered back across the street, and any patron that thinks intelligent crows killed a freakin’ werebear is crazy….right?
Since you don't see how this statement is a contradiction in terms, I am going to point out that Templates that don't Raise the CR of a creature are few and far between. They also normal stack together as I only remember a few that do exist. Dragonborn Template, Necropolitan template, Dungeonbred Monster Template, and Amphibious Creature Template are the only four that I can remember off hand, and cant figure out how to stack them for an increase in power.
There are templates that don't raise CR if the afected creature has few hit dices. Pseudonatural, for example, grants true strike once a day(nice against all those sky high AC and invisibility fans), and an alternate form that gives the attacker -1 penalty to hit the creature, plus electrecity resistance. Up to 3 HD don't raise CR. Also becomes an outsider, wich can be handy sometimes. I could swear that there are several others of this kind spread out there in the books.
EDIT:Anyway, effigies can be bought at the local market. That character can make them more cheaply, but even Joe the NPC can afford them. Since it's available to everybody, it's not a caster's sign of overpowerness.
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
Not me! I just go Druid-style, with pets that outperform fighters. ;) (Although, at low levels it's easier to kill monsters with damage than to buff your DCs and SoD)
Okay. I updated the build (this), and the planar challenge run (this) to make this legal (I removed class levels).
Can you fix the second link, it point to your character also.
Also, who would sell a Nevermore? Anyone who buys it is probably just a lazy assassin.
Um, if it has a gold piece cost, then it is buyable -- right?
If these are the uber-thing that you portray them to be, then people would be buying them left-and-right ... this is very similar to the PAO thing. If something is completely undercosted, then it breaks the game and is not an example of caster vs noncaster.
The Explosive Runes thing however, is caster only -- yet undercosted (takes time is all) for a caster, but prohibitively expensive for a noncaster.
Can you fix the second link, it point to your character also.
Fix'd. I have no idea how that happened, sorry.
Um, if it has a gold piece cost, then it is buyable -- right?
If these are the uber-thing that you portray them to be, then people would be buying them left-and-right ... this is very similar to the PAO thing. If something is completely undercosted, then it breaks the game and is not an example of caster vs noncaster.
My point is, who would sell it?
Also, Pun-pun is usable at low levels. Yet Pun-pun is not used 'left and right.' I have, personally, never been in a game that went like the following:
Player A: I'm playing a low-impact Pun-Pun who casts every spell in the game as a free action.
Player B: I'm playing a low-impact Pun-Pun who has infinite strength and attacks infinite times per round.
Player C: I'm playing a low-impact Pun-Pun who has infinite skill checks and deals infinite sneak attack damage. And every enemy is flat-footed to him.
...
Same thing with the PaO abuse. I've never played in a game where it was used - does that mean it's not overpowered? No. Your own example contradicts your point.
The Explosive Runes thing however, is caster only -- yet undercosted (takes time is all) for a caster, but prohibitively expensive for a noncaster.
Okay...does this mean you want me to change my build to Wizard 5 and use Explosive Runes? I don't quite get your point here. Are you pointing out Explosive Runes as a valid trick, while saying that my build isn't in the spirit of the challenge?
Let me repeat my point.
- Effigies are powerful tools that can obsolete most encounters.
- My character, a caster, can get effigies easier and faster than any other character.
I can build effigies at level...2, I think. I have another build that switches positions of Improved Initiative and Craft Construct and gets the ability at level 1 (gaining the gold at level 2).
If there's any confusion, here is my stance on items critical to the build: If you buy them, then you have to acknowledge that someone other than you is doing a major part of the work for you. If you make/miracle/invent them yourself, you are doing the hard work in the build.
Edit: Sorry to continue, but I can't help noticing this:
If these are the uber-thing that you portray them to be, then people would be buying them left-and-right.
Give me proof, right now, that these things are not the uber-thing I portray them to be. I just destroyed a dungeon for a party of level 7 characters with one level 5 character. How exactly are these things not "uber-powered" if I can do that?
Fix'd. I have no idea how that happened, sorry.
no problem
My point is, who would sell it?
If it is available to sell, then someone is. To restrict it is a house-rule.
Also, Pun-pun is usable at low levels. Yet Pun-pun is not used 'left and right.' I have, personally, never been in a game that went like the following:
Pun-Pun is RAW legal at low levels, it is not usable, as with inifinite everything, it is impossible to challenge.
Same thing with the PaO abuse. I've never played in a game where it was used - does that mean it's not overpowered? No! Your own example contradicts your point!
There is a misunderstanding here.
My point was that, in this thread, Alter self abuse led to PAO abuse, which was RAW legal, but discounted from this thread as both casters and non-casters had access to it.
Okay...does this mean you want me to change my build to Wizard 5 and use Explosive Runes? I don't quite get your point here. Are you pointing out Explosive Runes as a valid trick, while saying that my build doesn't get the point?
No, I am pointing to one of the current contestants who demonstrated a caster-only trick that could not be duplicated by a non-caster.
If your trick relies on equipment, then someone could duplicate it by buying the same equipment you make.
Let me repeat my point.
- Effigies are powerful tools that can obsolete most encounters.
- My character, a caster, can get effigies easier and faster than any other character.
Dunno about easier ... I would think that me walking into a magic-mart and buying one would be faster/easier than learning to make one ...
I can build effigies at level...2, I think. I have another build that switches positions of Improved Initiative and Craft Construct and gets the ability at level 1 (gaining the gold at level 2).
You might have missed it, but I think I demonstrated that summon monster is not an evil spell until you cast it, so you would not have the CL needed for the feat prereq. I am unsure if boosting CL for feats works ... but I do not want to start talking about that, as when I say things, people usually attack me (flame war) and I am just not interested in that.
If there's any confusion, here is my stance on items critical to the build: If you buy them, then you have to acknowledge that someone other than you is doing a major part of the work for you. If you make/miracle/invent them yourself, you are doing the hard work in the build.
This is a difference of opinion that seems to be prevalent in this discussion:
Casters say that they get partial credit for noncasters wins if the noncasters use magic items.
Noncasters say that if the noncaster spends gold, then it is irrelevant who makes the item.
Give me proof, right now, that these things are not the uber-thing I portray them to be. I just destroyed a dungeon for a party of level 7 characters with one level 5 character. How exactly are these things not "uber-powered" if I can do that?
I refuse to do ANYTHING "right now" ...
And no, you did not just destroy a level 7 dungeon with ONE level 5 character, you used 3-4 effigies.
This would be similar to me taking a commoner, and hiring a bunch of war trolls, then saying that the commoner beat the dungeon.
I don't know enought about effigies or template stacking to talk about the legality of it ... other than what I posted in the past. I am curious about what the various half-dragon templates are, as I cannot find them. I was able to find "Half Dragon" in SRD, as well as "Half Dragon" in a Savage Species table, but not "Half Dragon: Rust". So sorry, for displaying my lack of knowledge, but could you point me to where they come from?
[edit] the way your build is right now, things with high inits can beat you ...
[edit] I just read the extra-planar encounter. So, effigies get auto-surprise rounds vs enemies? Which template is that from?
What do you mean, not usable? I'm not talking about your challenge here, I'm talking about a normal game with no house-rules.
Sorry about the PaO misunderstanding.
Yes, a non-caster can duplicate my trick, but he would have to rely on me or another caster to supply the effigies.
As to faster, I can make them 1500 gp cheaper than you can buy them, and I can make them earlier than you have the gold to buy them.
This is a difference of opinion that seems to be prevalent in this discussion:
Casters say that they get partial credit for noncasters wins if the noncasters use magic items.
Noncasters say that if the noncaster spends gold, then it is irrelevant who makes the item.
Well, I guess we agree to disagree then.
I refuse to do ANYTHING "right now" ...
And no, you did not just destroy a level 7 dungeon with ONE level 5 character, you used 3-4 effigies.
Yes, I did. Those ravens are just like Animal Companions - they are part of my character. Do you deny the Fleshraker Druid victory because it was his pets who brought stuff down? A class feature gives him his pets, a feat gives me mine.
This would be similar to me taking a commoner, and hiring a bunch of war trolls, then saying that the commoner beat the dungeon.
No, because the war trolls are not part of your character. They are hired minions. My ravens are mindless effigies controlled by me, and I was able to get them through abilities of my character, not through gold. Also, my character has these bodyguards 24/7/365. You have the Wartrolls for, maybe, a day? Wasn't one of your main rants short-duration buffs?
Also, why didn't you bring this up back on page 93 or 94? I may have missed it, but in the future I would appreciate if you lay all of your grievances out at once, so I can address them as fast as possible. As it is it seems you're just pulling objections out of a bag, and every time I address one you pull another out. I would much rather see the contents of the bag so I have a better idea what you are really concerned about.
I don't know enought about effigies or template stacking to talk about the legality of it ... other than what I posted in the past. I am curious about what the various half-dragon templates are, as I cannot find them. I was able to find "Half Dragon" in SRD, as well as "Half Dragon" in a Savage Species table, but not "Half Dragon: Rust". So sorry, for displaying my lack of knowledge, but could you point me to where they come from?
Rust dragon is in the Draconomicon, IIRC. It was used by Mr. Roboto, which was deemed legal, so I figured I'd use it here as a nice 15th dragon.
[edit] the way your build is right now, things with high inits can beat you ...
[edit] I just read the extra-planar encounter. So, effigies get auto-surprise rounds vs enemies? Which template is that from?
It's not...they are in the form of ravens. Do you normally put yourself on guard against pigeons? I'll go back and remove the surprise rounds, assuming that every monster in this plane has supernatural knowledge that all ravens are in fact souped-up robots ready to kill.
Even so, they have higher Init than any monster they face except the Monster of Legend, and their AC is so high that they are practically immune to attacks.
And I don't get how high-init monsters beat me. Most of the time I'm either invisible or far away, and the ravens are practically immune to attacks.
What do you mean, not usable? I'm not talking about your challenge here, I'm talking about a normal game with no house-rules.
Not usable ... as in, if you came to a table, to play DnD, and you pulled out Pun-Pun, would a DM say "Ok, looks good, let's play?" If not, it is not usable (which is why Pun-Pun is a TO, not a CO build). But, that is neither here nor there.
Yes, I did. Those ravens are just like Animal Companions - they are part of my character. Do you deny the Fleshraker Druid victory because it was his pets who brought stuff down? A class feature gives him his pets, a feat gives me mine.
The animal companion is a class feature for a druid. He gets it for free (no gold required/etc). From a metagame point of view, effigies are pieces of equipment, just like hirelings (animals, slaves, undead, etc). There is the difference.
No, because the war trolls are not part of your character. They are hired minions. My ravens are mindless effigies controlled by me, and I was able to get them through abilities of my character, not through gold. Also, my character has these bodyguards 24/7/365. You have the Wartrolls for, maybe, a day? Wasn't one of your main rants short-duration buffs?
Wartrolls cost 100gp/day (from what someone else said). A 5th level character has 9000 gp. This means that he could have 9 trolls for 10 days. This is not short-duration. I would not give that build a victory however.
Also, why didn't you bring this up back on page 93 or 94? I may have missed it, but in the future I would appreciate if you lay all of your grievances out at once, so I can address them as fast as possible. As it is it seems you're just pulling objections out of a bag, and every time I address one you pull another out. I would much rather see the contents of the bag so I have a better idea what you are really concerned about.
I think I mentioned that I have been traveling this past week ... I haven't had much time to spend on this board. I am now home, and have more time, but still ... not as much as normal. Sorry that I cannot lay all my objections out all at once, I frequently don't know them all when I post. As builds get changed, or I learn more information, I then find new things I am objecting to.
Rust dragon is in the Draconomicon, IIRC. It was used by Mr. Roboto, which was deemed legal, so I figured I'd use it here as a nice 15th dragon.
I should have been more clear. Where is the "Half Dragon: Red" template coming from? What I mean is, can you apply the "Half Dragon" template 15 times? If so, why limit yourself to 15? If not, what does this do to your build?
It's not...they are in the form of ravens. Do you normally put yourself on guard against pigeons? I'll go back and remove the surprise rounds, assuming that every monster in this plane has supernatural knowledge that all ravens are in fact souped-up robots ready to kill.
Don't bother changing anything ... I was asking about them. Is is possible to tell anything about the effigies from a distance (i.e. does a spot check reveal anything?)
Even so, they have higher Init than any monster they face except the Monster of Legend, and their AC is so high that they are practically immune to attacks.
And I don't get how high-init monsters beat me. Most of the time I'm either invisible or far away, and the ravens are practically immune to attacks.
Ah, I missed the fact that you were invisible all the time, ignore that comment then.
Then, a caster can have pretty much twice as many effigies than a noncaster. I'd say that outnumbering the enemy 2 to 1 would make a Caster X with crafted effigies vs a Noncaster X with bought effigies.
Not usable ... as in, if you came to a table, to play DnD, and you pulled out Pun-Pun, would a DM say "Ok, looks good, let's play?" If not, it is not usable (which is why Pun-Pun is a TO, not a CO build). But, that is neither here nor there.
This is a debate on overpowered casters, so I'm not going to lose any sleep on this entry. And Rule 0 is a house rule (my example was talking about no house rules). But I agree, this is neither here nor there.
The animal companion is a class feature for a druid. He gets it for free (no gold required/etc). From a metagame point of view, effigies are pieces of equipment, just like hirelings (animals, slaves, undead, etc). There is the difference.
I made the equipment. That gives me more right to it than someone who bought the equipment from a Moral Optimization standpoint. And as referred to above, a crafter with effigies will beat a buyer with effigies, simply because he has more.
Wartrolls cost 100gp/day (from what someone else said). A 5th level character has 9000 gp. This means that he could have 9 trolls for 10 days. This is not short-duration. I would not give that build a victory however.
I wouldn't either. My point was not that you would have them for too short to do the dungeon, it was that you will not have them with you at any given moment. My effigies are always with me, after 90 days your character is broke, weaponless, and without bodyguards.
I think I mentioned that I have been traveling this past week ... I haven't had much time to spend on this board. I am now home, and have more time, but still ... not as much as normal. Sorry that I cannot lay all my objections out all at once, I frequently don't know them all when I post. As builds get changed, or I learn more information, I then find new things I am objecting to.
I missed that you have been traveling, but still. I currently regard my build as complete. If you want to post any more objections, please do so soon, or else note on the first page that this build is legal.
I should have been more clear. Where is the "Half Dragon: Red" template coming from? What I mean is, can you apply the "Half Dragon" template 15 times? If so, why limit yourself to 15? If not, what does this do to your build?
I limit myself to 15 Half-dragon templates because that's how many types of dragons I can think of off the top of my head. And really, that's all thats needed. Again, I refer you to Mr. Roboto. He has 10-20 Half-Dragon templates and is legal.
Don't bother changing anything ... I was asking about them. Is is possible to tell anything about the effigies from a distance (i.e. does a spot check reveal anything?)
Yes, a DC 20 spot check will reveal that they are automatons, but the distance penalties associated with it might be heavy.
Ah, I missed the fact that you were invisible all the time, ignore that comment then.
No worries.
Just a note on Split Ray: it adds one ray, it doesn't double the number of rays. Your scorching ray damage should still be very high, but not quite what you've got listed (empowered scorching ray at CL 11+ averages to 63, split ray scorching ray averages to 56, split ray empowered scorching ray averages to 84).
opps ... didnt see that..still it should overcome any opponent in these challenges
i will adjust my post to correct it .... thanks
:D
Level 6? What dungeon does your level 6 character want to enter?
What does your level 5 character (without as much gold, without the +5 bonus to init) look like.
i was not aware that it was necessary to build it for 5th lvl..... but i can make the adjustments to show that as well...... i planned on going thru the 6th lvl challenges, it wont matter which ones... the results should be the same
How do you get Split ray? It has a pre-req of 1 metamagic feat?
my bad... will adjust the feats
I assume the spell it empowers is lesser orb of fire? (remember, it can only empower one spell)
most likely.... as MM does not benifit much from Empower
Which one are you wearing in the throat slot, this, or the previous one?
Scorchy would Start wearing the 1st lvl SpellShard... and Switch when he used it up for the day
Page 227 of MIC lists wands with 10 charges minimum. Where do you buy them for less? (Note: You could have had them at level 5 (or earlier), and used 5 of them yourself ... which would not count in the wealth by level chart, but instead just as consumables).
Huberts Used Wand Shop ? ;) ..... they would be the same ones used by this build earlier @5th lvl
Biggest breeds of their kind -- is flavor text, right?
[EDIT]: How is buying a herd of dogs (8) different than buying slaves/adepts (magic missile)/longbowmen?
Note: I am not commenting on the mount.
dogs are common Adventuring equipment(for me that is) they are cheap, and mostly under my control(as opposed to NPCs which are DM controlled).. dogs are more Loyal and predictable
they dont do much.... but do provide other targets to draw attention to for the monsters(they must choose who to attack ... the mean looking Dogs or mousey looking animal handler).... but Scorchy does most all the Combat, he draws all attention once he casts a spell
:D
Scorchy looks nice. Is there any reason why you have Summon Monster I? It might be more beneficial to have a low-level SoS/SoD spell like Glitterdust or Color Spray. You seem to be going for one-shot kills (which your character looks quite good at), but it might be nice to have a backup plan in case you run into a meatshield.
Just a minor note - you don't have any way to heal yourself that I see. You might be out on a limb if you can't 1-hit-kill something and it manages to hit you.
Just out of curiosity, what spell would this guy take at level 7? I'd like to see him go through the Full Moon gauntlet.
Just a minor note - you don't have any way to heal yourself that I see. You might be out on a limb if you can't 1-hit-kill something and it manages to hit you.
Or get a surprize round on him, and be smart enough to ignore his entourage.
Also, Chain of Eyes was updated in the Spell Compendium, and know only works on living creatures, so unless the Nevermores count as Living Constructs, that combo wont work.
I understand your opinion on why your build is superior to a similar character that just buys stuff, but I think if you read the thread, the standards are clear.
I do have a question, if one were to buy an Effigy,how would one control it?
A non-caster can buy a Zombi, but usually cant control it.Is this true of Effigies.
I dont see anything wrong with using Minions,Mounts or the ilk, and many winning builds use them.The key is to show how the Caster uses them better.Or not.I am am actually considering using Handle Animal to train Undead.It seems like it will be possible.And it will be another blow against Caster supremacy.
Ah well.
Oh, and war trolls work for 30 gp a day each one. Any 5th level character will perfectly be able to hire a bunch of them and keep them for eternity as long as he bothers to go in a quest a week, wich isn't too hard.
Anyway, since Betasquirrel insists so much that somehwere in the world there are ravens that were raped by all type of dragons and god know what else creatures for him to build the effiggy from, what is the problem that there are shopkeepers that sell these same creatures? Using stupid rules is a 2 way road. Your caster gets to craft those uber monsters, our noncasters get to buy them. Your caster has to burn experience and time to get them, so in the end both sides expended more or less the same amount of total resources. And buying is istant By the time you end crafting your effigies the noncaster will have hoarded enough gold to buy much more.
And if you claim that casters win because they are the ones wich craft the effigies, I say that it's commoners who win, because they are the ones who gather the raw resources, food, laboratory and shops necessary to craft the efigies.
Claiming that shops that sell everything don't exist hurts the casters as much as the noncasters. You can't build an effiggy out of raw gold, dirt and random monster bodies.
Like golems, effigies can be ordered to obey the comands of a specific individual. I guess the shopkeeper just orders the effiggy to obey the buyer and everithing is set.
Oh, and war trolls work for 30 gp a day each one. Any 5th level character will perfectly be able to hire a bunch of them and keep them for eternity as long as he bothers to go in a quest a week, wich isn't too hard.
Anyway, since Betasquirrel insists so much that somehwere in the world there are ravens that were raped by all type of dragons and god know what else creatures for him to build the effiggy from, what is the problem that there are shopkeepers that sell these same creatures? Using stupid rules is a 2 way road. Your caster gets to craft those uber monsters, our noncasters get to buy them. Your caster has to burn experience and time to get them, so in the end both sides expended more or less the same amount of total resources. And buying is istant By the time you end crafting your effigies the noncaster will have hoarded enough gold to buy much more.
And if you claim that casters win because they are the ones wich craft the effigies, I say that it's commoners who win, because they are the ones who gather the raw resources, food, laboratory and shops necessary to craft the efigies.
Claiming that shops that sell everything don't exist hurts the casters as much as the noncasters. You can't build an effiggy out of raw gold, dirt and random monster bodies.
Not really. Even if you are a full level behind in XP (something that is damn unlikely- see the old "Experience is a river" trhead), the WBL doesn't double each level.
So, even if you have the gold of a level 5 noncaster (9,000 gp) and use it all in effigies, a level 4 noncaster using all of his gold (5,400 gp) in effigies can get 10,800 gp worth of effigies. And this is assuming the level 4 noncaster has level 4 wealth, but if he burned all of his XP crafting, he should've adventured for the level he's burning experience of, and should've got rewards during that level.
Not really. Even if you are a full level behind in XP (something that is damn unlikely- see the old "Experience is a river" trhead), the WBL doesn't double each level.
So, even if you have the gold of a level 5 noncaster (9,000 gp) and use it all in effigies, a level 4 noncaster using all of his gold (5,400 gp) in effigies can get 10,800 gp worth of effigies. And this is assuming the level 4 noncaster has level 4 wealth, but if he burned all of his XP crafting, he should've adventured for the level he's burning experience of, and should've got rewards during that level.
Crafting isn't istant. It takes 1 day for each 1000 gp in the price. He spent 10 days building uber ravens. During those 10 days the noncaster will probably have gained several levels and earned lots of gold, wich he uses to buy more effigies and complete quests even faster.
Crafting isn't istant. It takes 1 day for each 1000 gp in the price. He spent 10 days building uber ravens. During those 10 days the noncaster will probably have [i]gained several levels[/i] and earned lots of gold, wich he uses to buy more effigies and complete quests even faster.
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
That's because it's level 5 and were soloing 5 encounters of appropriate or higher in one day. Run the challenge again at level 10 or 15 and you could expect things to change.
Please revise the encounter, or adjust the difficulty listing for this.
I didn't have much trouble with it, when expending a few thousand in consumables. Come on Meyer's, lets see you go for it.
Since it's available to everybody, it's not a caster's sign of overpowerness.
I still think this argument is perhaps one of the worst ones I have ever heard.
P: Casters can do really powerful things.
P: Melees can pay lots of gold for the casters to do those powerful things for them.
P: Casters accept gold for services enough that melees can get whatever powerful things they want.
P: Being able to buy powerful things is equal to being able to do powerful things.
C: Casters aren't more powerful, because melees can also buy their power.
The problem being that Premises 3 and 4 are deeply flawed. Premise 3 is campaign dependent, but Premise 4, more importantly, is just simply flawed.
Being able to buy an uber spell is simply not as strong as being able to cast an uber spell. I can't believe people are still making this argument.
During those 10 days the noncaster will probably have gained several levels
Okay, perhaps the above is the second worst argument I've ever heard.
Wartrolls cost 100gp/day (from what someone else said). A 5th level character has 9000 gp. This means that he could have 9 trolls for 10 days. This is not short-duration. I would not give that build a victory however.
Right. But 9 wartrolls are fairly smart, and after 1 day of realizing they could beat the person that hired them, 1 or 2 would probably get greedy and suggest killing the person and stealing their gold.
Okay, perhaps the above is the second worst argument I've ever heard.
Right. But 9 wartrolls are fairly smart, and after 1 day of realizing they could beat the person that hired them, 1 or 2 would probably get greedy and suggest killing the person and stealing their gold.
Time is money. And power. That evil warlord of doom won't expect the casters to craft whatever they need before starting his 24 hours ritual that ends with the sacrifice of the princess you are ought to save, for example. I can't say my elf character spent hundreds of years earning money with his job to get thousands of extra gold before the game started.
And your last argument is flawed. It's based in common sense. Wich is a thing all mosters in D&D lack, no matter their INT or WIS score. It's the only explanation to how you can persuade monsters to sit in some dark creepy dungeon for decades, when they could just take the treasure for themselves and go do something fun.
BetaSquirrell:Why are your former companions not using Silence on you, since they know about your need to issue commands?
Also, Chain of Eyes was updated in the Spell Compendium, and know only works on living creatures, so unless the Nevermores count as Living Constructs, that combo wont work.
Thanks for the update on Chain of Eyes. I'll remove it when I get the chance.
As to Silence, I don't actually need to issue commands during combat. The Nevermores are keyed to attack unless I say not to, so if I am silenced they have merely sealed their fate.
I understand your opinion on why your build is superior to a similar character that just buys stuff, but I think if you read the thread, the standards are clear.
Oh, well. I've read about a total of 20 pages here and there, but I'm going to argue from my own ground.
I do have a question, if one were to buy an Effigy,how would one control it?
A non-caster can buy a Zombi, but usually cant control it.Is this true of Effigies.
The creator could just order it to obey the buyer, but he could always order it back later (Caveat Emptor).
I dont see anything wrong with using Minions,Mounts or the ilk, and many winning builds use them.The key is to show how the Caster uses them better.Or not.I am am actually considering using Handle Animal to train Undead.It seems like it will be possible.And it will be another blow against Caster supremacy.
Ah well.
I don't like the idea of simply hiring bodyguards - I think that the build has to show that it can do what it does better than anyone else. I guess we are agreed on this. Good luck with your build!
Anyway, since Betasquirrel insists so much that somehwere in the world there are ravens that were raped by all type of dragons and god know what else creatures for him to build the effiggy from, what is the problem that there are shopkeepers that sell these same creatures?
This again? Listen. I can build effigies from scratch. Stop trolling on this issue. There is nothing that says I need a body, it merely states that a creature that is an effigy can be built. Look under the prereqs for Effigies. Just some craft skills and gp (along with Craft Construct). "Aquired template" doesn't mean that I need a base creature strapped down.
Leo's contention is that the effigy you create is a clockwork version of something that exists ... so, to make it one would have to exist somewhere.
also, I have had time now, so the first link should show this as a victory (even though I think using minion like this is cheesy -- to my knowledge, the build is complete and thread-legal).
EDIT:one funny thing tough. After years of the CO claiming casters were the pwrnz thanks to their save or die spells and that blasting sucks, every caster in here is winning thanks to damage spells or by buffing themselves to deal heavy damage in melee.
Things are very different at level 5 where things have 40hp then at 20 when things have many many times more hp and only slightly higher saves if you target the weak save.
At higher levels these same caster characters would be using save or sucks like they always do.
I didn't have much trouble with it, when expending a few thousand in consumables. Come on Meyer's, lets see you go for it.
I currently can't attempt it ... as I don't know what green slime are ... (I know what they used to be (basic+1st+2nd edition), but I suspect they have changed)
Next friday (assuming gaming is not cancelled) I will have access to the DMG to look up green slime ... but until then ...
Yes, I did. Those ravens are just like Animal Companions - they are part of my character. Do you deny the Fleshraker Druid victory because it was his pets who brought stuff down? A class feature gives him his pets, a feat gives me mine.
The fleshraker druid is very strong even without Pouncy to help him. The fact there are two dinos just pushes him from extremely strong to overpowered.
Leo's contention is that the effigy you create is a clockwork version of something that exists ... so, to make it one would have to exist somewhere.
Infinite universe. Anything that *can* exist *does* exist.
Besides, you can make mechanical versions of something that doesn't exist. Like, say, a unicorn.
Infinite universe. Anything that *can* exist *does* exist.
Besides, you can make mechanical versions of something that doesn't exist. Like, say, a unicorn.
Note, I am not saying he is correct or incorrect, but rather, am attempting to restate what I understand his position to be.
For those of us who do not have a DMG, can you post enough about Green Slime for us to participate?
It's in the SRD, I'll update with the description.
How is a Sorcerer 5 / Monk 1 a CR5 encounter? 6 levels of PC classes is a CR6, also, with the second creature and the auto-fail trap, the EL of this is higher than that.
By the monster advancing rules it comes out as a 5.5 level creature. I guess I could remove the level in monk as it doesn't really add much.
The Ghoul Glyph however is a spell not a trap. If you insist on increasing the CR for spellcaster opponents that use their spells in an intelligent manner then you have to concede the point of this thread.
Garden Variety Elf.
14/16/12/16/6,
Eq: Mwk Longspear, +2 DEX item, cheap AC booster(s?), a few cure potions?
-AB will be crap at around +7 for both UAS and longspear, or +5/+5 flurry.
Feats: Evasive reflexes, Stone Power
Warblade stuff: Sudden Leap, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Punishing Stance
Swordsage stuff: Stance of Clarity, Burning Blade, Fiery Riposte, Emerald Razor, Counter Charge. ( also known: Shadow Blade Tech )
HP: Around 30
Tactics: Our primary tactic is based around people provoking AoOs and having Evasive Reflexes: As they provoke, we take a 5ft. step. On our turn we slap them around. Use Emerald Razor to heal with Stone Power. We almost always rely on evasive reflexes.
Also, our reflex save:
Dex +4, Monk +3 SS+2, WB +1. Total: +10. And we have Evasion.
We have +8 on Counter Charge vs. Griffon's +2.
Punishing Stance + Longspear averages to 11 points of damage, on it's own, and if he hits, Fiery Riposte goes for 17 points.
After entering the cave, switch Counter Charge to Shadow Blade Tech.
The trap is 50/50, but we can probably Tumble the fall to mere 4d6. Not enough to kill. In case we get hurt, this is where Cures will come to play.
Vs. Shocker Lizards, our Evasion will negate the damage most of the time, and a single round will drop at least one, every time.
Cloaker may be tricky, but Punishing Stance, Burning Blade + Flurry for 2d8+4d6 will take it down, or close enough. Finish off with Emerald Razor to regain HP... not to mention Fiery Riposte. Avg. damage if all hits around 70, although not given.
Hydra:
...Okay, that's tough nut to crack. Sudden Leap is helpful in avoiding damage, but Fast Heal makes things quite tricky. Our best offensive is 4d6+2d8+4d6, for 61 points, average. Our chances to hit are less stellar, though. Good chance to try and Stun it, FWIW.
IF we're alive in the next round, it has avg. 45 damage, so we use Emerald Razor, sudden leap and move action to make some distance, retreat to the cloaker cave and recover Fiery Riposte. ( at this point, a flaw for Adaptive Style might not have been a bad idea. Oh well. )
So, the thing probably only has around 13 points of damage left. Time to use the combo again. This time, it will die.
All in all, I'd say chances vs. the Hydra are only around 20%, so I'd have to say "Dies on Hydra". Stupid large enemies...
However, the combination of reach + Evasive Reflexes is fun and accessible at level 1. At high level, combined with forcing constant AoOs, it means you won't take a full attack from anything, ever again.
Leo's contention is that the effigy you create is a clockwork version of something that exists ... so, to make it one would have to exist somewhere.
also, I have had time now, so the first link should show this as a victory (even though I think using minion like this is cheesy -- to my knowledge, the build is complete and thread-legal).
Thanks. All I have to do now is remove CoE and it becomes Errata-friendly.
It's in the SRD, I'll update with the description.
Thanks, I wasn't able to find it.
By the monster advancing rules it comes out as a 5.5 level creature. I guess I could remove the level in monk as it doesn't really add much.
Naw, don't bother removing it, if that is true ... I had just thought that for monsters who only had levels, you just set the CR to be the character levels. Guess I am wrong.
The Ghoul Glyph however is a spell not a trap. If you insist on increasing the CR for spellcaster opponents that use their spells in an intelligent manner then you have to concede the point of this thread.
Actually, I remove the request for upping the EL of this, as I just noticed that it was listed as CR6 anyway ... (is this correct)?
And remember what we said pages ago, we pointed at Rules of the Game articles, which showed that when you use spells to create a lasting effect, and then regain the spells, then the lasting effect is no longer considered part of the spellcaster that created it (for xp/cr).
Case in point ... a spellcaster animated dead to populate his dungeon over the course of a couple months. By DnD rules, when we go through the dungeon, we get XP for killing the undead.
Also, the point of this thread is to look for example of overpowered spellcasters. The noncasters are just there for comparison's sake.
Oh man... this one goes for the melee side, but it looks like Monk2/Warblade2/Swordsage 1 would do quite decently in this one. I won't go into every detail, but...
Garden Variety Elf.
14/16/12/16/6,
Eq: Mwk Longspear, +2 DEX item, cheap AC booster(s?), a few cure potions?
-AB will be crap at around +7 for both UAS and longspear, or +5/+5 flurry.
Feats: Evasive reflexes, Stone Power
Warblade stuff: Sudden Leap, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Punishing Stance
Swordsage stuff: Stance of Clarity, Burning Blade, Fiery Riposte, Emerald Razor, Counter Charge. ( also known: Shadow Blade Tech )
HP: Around 30
Tactics: Our primary tactic is based around people provoking AoOs and having Evasive Reflexes: As they provoke, we take a 5ft. step. On our turn we slap them around. Use Emerald Razor to heal with Stone Power. We almost always rely on evasive reflexes.
Also, our reflex save:
Dex +4, Monk +3 SS+2, WB +1. Total: +10. And we have Evasion.
We have +8 on Counter Charge vs. Griffon's +2.
Punishing Stance + Longspear averages to 11 points of damage, on it's own, and if he hits, Fiery Riposte goes for 17 points.
After entering the cave, switch Counter Charge to Shadow Blade Tech.
The trap is 50/50, but we can probably Tumble the fall to mere 4d6. Not enough to kill. In case we get hurt, this is where Cures will come to play.
Vs. Shocker Lizards, our Evasion will negate the damage most of the time, and a single round will drop at least one, every time.
Cloaker may be tricky, but Punishing Stance, Burning Blade + Flurry for 2d8+4d6 will take it down, or close enough. Finish off with Emerald Razor to regain HP... not to mention Fiery Riposte. Avg. damage if all hits around 70, although not given.
Hydra:
...Okay, that's tough nut to crack. Sudden Leap is helpful in avoiding damage, but Fast Heal makes things quite tricky. Our best offensive is 4d6+2d8+4d6, for 61 points, average. Our chances to hit are less stellar, though. Good chance to try and Stun it, FWIW.
IF we're alive in the next round, it has avg. 45 damage, so we use Emerald Razor, sudden leap and move action to make some distance, retreat to the cloaker cave and recover Fiery Riposte. ( at this point, a flaw for Adaptive Style might not have been a bad idea. Oh well. )
So, the thing probably only has around 13 points of damage left. Time to use the combo again. This time, it will die.
All in all, I'd say chances vs. the Hydra are only around 20%, so I'd have to say "Dies on Hydra". Stupid large enemies...
However, the combination of reach + Evasive Reflexes is fun and accessible at level 1. At high level, combined with forcing constant AoOs, it means you won't take a full attack from anything, ever again.
This is not a complete build ... please post the full character (skills, feats, equipment, etc) so that I can add it to the first page.
btw ... vs the hydra, when you retreat, it is fast healing, so that when you return it is probably at full. Also, a hydra can attack with all its heads each round, so this might be a problem for you.
Myreadied maneuvers are Fire Riposte, Fire Blade, Rabid Wolf Strike, Steely Wind (everything but sudden leap).
Crypt of Creepiness 2.0
Encounter 1: Wights
Show
My initiative is 7 higher than theirs, so I get to go first.
Round 1:
I walk into position so that I am in melee range of one, but the second is 10' away from me.
I rabid wolf strike, burning blade, power attack the first one (+4+5+1+4-4 = +10 vs ac 14, 85%) hitting for (2d4+2d6+1d6+1d6+1+7+8+3 = 5+7+7+1+7+8+3) 38 damage, killing it.
The second one advances, which provokes a trip attack (+4+5+1-4 = 6 vs ac 11, 80, 165) which hits, resulting in a str/dex check (me: +7 (5+2) vs it: 1, 80) which says that it was tripped.
It spends its next move action standing (provoking), (+4+5+1-4 = 6 vs ac 7, 95%, 260) which hits for (2d4+1d6+1+7+8 = 5+3.5+1+7+8) 24.5 damage. It is now 10' from me.
End of Round one: Me: full, W1: Dead, W2: 7.5
Round two:
I (swift) regain my maneuvers and attack it normally (no power attack) (+4+5+1=10 vs ac 15, 80%, 340) missing. I step back 5'.
It needs to advance to attack me, provoking an attack (80, 420) which hits for (2d4+1d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+1+7) 16.5 damage, killing it.
End of round 2: Me: Full
My initiative is 7 higher than theirs, so I get to go first.
Round 1:
I walk into position so that I am in melee range of one, but the second is 10' away from me.
I rabid wolf strike, burning blade, power attack the first one (+4+5+1+4-4 = +10 vs ac 14, 85%) hitting for (2d4+2d6+1d6+1d6+1+7+8+3 = 5+7+7+1+7+8+3) 38 damage, killing it.
The second one advances, which provokes a trip attack (+4+5+1-4 = 6 vs ac 11, 80, 165) which hits, resulting in a str/dex check (me: +7 (5+2) vs it: 1, 80) which says that it was tripped.
It spends its next move action standing (provoking), (+4+5+1-4 = 6 vs ac 7, 95%, 260) which hits for (2d4+1d6+1+7+8 = 5+3.5+1+7+8) 24.5 damage. It is now 10' from me.
End of Round one: Me: full, W1: Dead, W2: 7.5
Round two:
I (swift) regain my maneuvers and attack it normally (no power attack) (+4+5+1=10 vs ac 15, 80%, 340) missing. I step back 5'.
It needs to advance to attack me, provoking an attack (80, 420) which hits for (2d4+1d6+1+7 = 5+3.5+1+7) 16.5 damage, killing it.
End of round 2: Me: Full
Things are very different at level 5 where things have 40hp then at 20 when things have many many times more hp and only slightly higher saves if you target the weak save.
At higher levels these same caster characters would be using save or sucks like they always do.
Actually, when you go to the monster manuals, you see that high level elite monsters have obscene saves. The Balor, for example, one of the original big bad boys, will have +26 FORT, +23 REF + 23 WILL, buffed with his own unholy aura prior combat like stated in the MM.
The average casting score of a 20 level wizard will be 16(base)+6(item)+10(levels and tome)+2 (improved specialization)=34.
This results in +12 modifier. So your 9th level spells have DCs of 31.
The Balor, at average, will roll 33-34 in his lowest save. So chances are that the Balor will make the saves against the caster's nastiest spells.
There are monsters who have a weak save to be targeted. But most of them either have excelent saves(like the Balor and other elite outsiders) or are simply immune to save or dies. It's much more efecient and safe to buff the party's melees or summon help, or buff yourself.
Yeah, hp grows faster than saves, but it's much easier to raise the amount of damage you're dealing than raising the DC's of your spells.
Azathoth
Dragonborn Gnome
Wizard 5 / Tainted Scholar 1
AC: 13 (4arm, -1taint)
HP: 46
Init: +9 (4(improved init), 5(primal instinct)
Abils:
Str: 4 (-2racial, -2taint)
Dex: 10 (4pts, -2racial)
Con: 21 (10pts, 4racial, 1level)
Int: 12 (4pts)
Wis: 17 (8pts, 2enhance)
Cha: 8
Corruption: 70
Depravity: 60
Feats:
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Necromantic Presence
HD1: Fell Animate
HD3: Practical Metamagic (Fell Animate)
Moderate Taint: Corpsecrafter
Severe Taint: Deadly Chill
Wizard 5: Necromantic Might
HD6: Nimble Bones
Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana):+10
Spellcraft: +10
Concentration: +14
Dragonborn Gnome
Wizard 5 / Tainted Scholar 1
AC: 13 (4arm, -1taint)
HP: 46
Init: +9 (4(improved init), 5(primal instinct)
Abils:
Str: 4 (-2racial, -2taint)
Dex: 10 (4pts, -2racial)
Con: 21 (10pts, 4racial, 1level)
Int: 12 (4pts)
Wis: 17 (8pts, 2enhance)
Cha: 8
Corruption: 70
Depravity: 60
Feats:
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Necromantic Presence
HD1: Fell Animate
HD3: Practical Metamagic (Fell Animate)
Moderate Taint: Corpsecrafter
Severe Taint: Deadly Chill
Wizard 5: Necromantic Might
HD6: Nimble Bones
Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana):+10
Spellcraft: +10
Concentration: +14
spells
Spells (known/per day):
DC: 45+spell level
1 (3+8) Nerveskitter (4x), Color Spray(3x), Grease(3x), Mage Armor
2 (3+8) Hideous Laughter (7x), Command Undead(2x), Spider Climb, Invisibility
3 (2+7) Stinking Cloud(3x), Icelance(2x), Deep Slumber(3x), Primal Instinct
Spellboook:
1: Nerveskitter, Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Lesser Fire Orb
2: Hideous Laughter, Command Undead, Spider Climb, Invisibility
3: Deep Slumber, Icelance, Stinking Cloud, Primal Instinct
Spells (known/per day):
DC: 45+spell level
1 (3+8) Nerveskitter (4x), Color Spray(3x), Grease(3x), Mage Armor
2 (3+8) Hideous Laughter (7x), Command Undead(2x), Spider Climb, Invisibility
3 (2+7) Stinking Cloud(3x), Icelance(2x), Deep Slumber(3x), Primal Instinct
Spellboook:
1: Nerveskitter, Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Lesser Fire Orb
2: Hideous Laughter, Command Undead, Spider Climb, Invisibility
3: Deep Slumber, Icelance, Stinking Cloud, Primal Instinct
Just a note, but if you can get Sculpt Spell in there you can basically stun everyone with a Sculpted Color Spray - cheap and practically double the area.
As a question (I don't have HoH, just UA), can you early entry into T.S. to get in by level 4, or are there skill requirements that hold you back still?
Anyway, my questions about this build:
1-Shouldn't you have negative wisdom with so much taint?
2-What are the jade rods for? From what I remember they stop you from receiving more taint, but if you are already so corrupted they won't do you much good.
3-How did you kill hydras ? Since you can't cast animate dead yet, I guess you used fell animate, but an hydra is still a tough cookie, especially because fell animate has +3 level adjustment, wich means you could only use 0 level spells with it. So you had to bring a hydra to negative hit points and deal the last blow with acid splash, wich is kinda complicated.
The gist is, you have an ability called Tainted Spellcasting. Your primary spellcasting stat is now Depravity or Corruption (forget which), not Int/Wis/Cha. The issue is, Depravity and Corruption are laughably easy to boost. In fact, there are some things like items that impose boosted Dep/Cor as a penalty. There are things called Taint Elementals that boost your Dep/Cor with a touch (At-Will IIRC), and last I heard Tainted Warrior was a Depravity Factory, with every melee attack boosting Dep by 1.
And since there are ways to get around the drawbacks of taint (most famously the Necropolitian, which is undead and thus immune to the negative effects of taint while retaining the positive benefits), with one level in the PrC your spell DCs are , where n is however freakin' large you want it to be. (I think HoH limits it to something like 50, but who cares?)
Basically, when the above character casts a spell, you FAIL the saving throw. A spell like Color Spray becomes one of the most insane spells in the game. IIRC you can take down balors and pit fiends with it, then CDG them when they are stunned.
And since there are ways to get around the drawbacks of taint (most famously the Necropolitian, which is undead and thus immune to the negative effects of taint while retaining the positive benefits), with one level in the PrC your spell DCs are , where n is however freakin' large you want it to be. (I think HoH limits it to something like 50, but who cares?)
Yeah, but still the posted character has not visible ways to dodge the penalties.
He's dragonborn gnome. Not undead or evil subtype. No immunity to taint.
Also, didn't you need to be a good character to become a dragonborn? Someone who intends to become so corrupted doesn't strike me as exactly a good aligned character.
Not to mention the possibility that someone heals your taint. I remember that there were some ways to remove all the taint at once.
About penalties:
Taint and corruption do not reduce your ability scores. Their maximum values are based on your wisdom and constitution score. I need the jade rods to absorb the taint because I gain taint every time I cast a spell thanks to Tainted Spellcasting, and approximately 10 more depravity points will turn me into a permanently insane NPC under the DM's control.
I listed the penalties I acquired under Depravity Effects and Taint Effects. The sum total of my penalties is this:
-1 AC
Must always make an attack of opportunity when able to (even against allies) (DC 20 will save to refrain)
Must always make a coup de grace when adjacent to a helpless creature (even an ally)
Must make a DC 20 fort save every time I run or charge or become fatigued
-1 penalty on all strength and charisma based ability and skill checks
-2 strength, +2 on intimidate, -4 on charisma-based checks.
Next level I will acquire the Necropolitan template, negating all ill effects of taint and allowing me to have arbitrarily high DCs, rather than simply 45+spell level, and an arbitrarily high number of spells per day. However, that would equivalent to a 7th level character, and I wanted to demonstrate the sheer brokenness of tainted scholar at the earliest possible level.
About healing taint: Certain spells can indeed heal taint. However, the list is very specific.
Atonement requires me to go on a quest for it have any effect.
Heal can reduce corruption and depravity scores by 1 point per 3 caster levels: not enough to have any appreciable effect on my combat abilities/
Wish or Miracle can reduce me from severe to moderate taint. I will still have high 20s-low 30s casting stats, and if the enemy is using this I have bigger problems.
Remove Curse can reduce depravity by 1: no appreciable effect
Remove Disease can reduce corruption by 1: no appreciable effect
Restoration can reduce taint by 1 per 4 caster levels, again, not enough to be significant
Greater Restoration can reduce taint by one per caster level. This could be a problem if the enemy super-boosted their Caster Level, but it can't reduce me below severe taint. Also, if they are tossing around this kind of spell level, I have bigger problems.
Tactics:
Find a hydra. Cast deep slumber, hideous laughter, or any other disabling spell with a decent duration. Have a couple easier-to-kill minions attack the hydra repeatedly to bring its HP down, then cast a Fell Animate Lesser Orb of Fire. I have Practical Metamagic (Fell Animate), so its adjustment is only +2. I have 9 third level spell slots, so even if I don't manage to finish him off the first time, I can have my minions bring him back down to low hp and try again, over and over and over again.
A spell like Color Spray becomes one of the most insane spells in the game. IIRC you can take down balors and pit fiends with it, then CDG them when they are stunned.
Just a minor note: stun doesn't allow CDG. They drop their weapons, are denied their Dex and take a -2 AC penalty, but they're not helpless.
@Carnivore:
Scorchy looks nice. Is there any reason why you have Summon Monster I? It might be more beneficial to have a low-level SoS/SoD spell like Glitterdust or Color Spray. You seem to be going for one-shot kills (which your character looks quite good at), but it might be nice to have a backup plan in case you run into a meatshield.
Summon Monster is to Power... Summon Elemental Reserve feat that will be taken later... also to Summon a Vivacious creature... to heal with
the build should Progress like this:
Generic Arcane caster 1
Generic Arcane caster 2
Generic Arcane caster 3
Generic Arcane caster 4
Generic Arcane caster 5
Incantatrix 1
Generic Divine caster 1
Mystic Theurge 1
Mystic Theurge 2
Mystic Theurge 3
Mystic Theurge 4
Mystic Theurge 5
Mystic Theurge 6
Mystic Theurge 7
Mystic Theurge 8
Mystic Theurge 9
Mystic Theurge 10
Incantatrix 2
Incantatrix 3
Incantatrix 4
Glitter Dust is handy for a Character who is in a party.... it allows others to gain great benifits... for a single character, who is relying on himself... it is better to One-Shot enemies... without wasting Spell slots.
it is very easy to buff ones self and go into Melee.... but i am trying to show the power of Spells alone
Meatshields are not a big problem at this level
Just a minor note - you don't have any way to heal yourself that I see. You might be out on a limb if you can't 1-hit-kill something and it manages to hit you.
as PhaedrusXY noted... they need to do a lot of things before that happens
and i do have the Summon Monster 1(Vivacious Creature)
Just out of curiosity, what spell would this guy take at level 7? I'd like to see him go through the Full Moon gauntlet.
Since he will take a Single level of Generic Divine Caster.... he wont be getting an additional 1st,2nd,3rd Arcane Spells Known..... instead... he will get :
2 @ 1st lvl Divine Spells(Lesser Fire Orb as a Divine Spell, Lesser Vigor or Magic Missile as a Divine Spell)
4 @0-lvl Divine Spells....will list later
if he continued with Incantarix 2 instead... he would pick:
Manyjaws(3rd lvl), some Fire Related spell(Balor Nimbus?)(2nd lvl), Thunderhead(1st lvl)
since he will get Summon Elemental Reserve at 7th lvl... he will then have an Unlimited number of additional Allies who will actively take part in battles(the dogs are Mainly Passive in thier roles right now)
@9th lvl he will take Practical Metamagic(Heighten Spell) ... thus will be able to Heighten a 1st lvl Spell(Summon Monster 1) to 5th lvl, but using a 4th lvl Slot, and acting as a 6th lvl spell with a caster lvl of 13... thus he Summons an Unlimited Number of Medium Elementals Duration 13 rounds... he can summon any type he likes to suit the situation ...for more on what you can do with Summon Elemental Reserve feat... look here
:D
Thanks for the clarification - this guy looks much more stable now - especially with the Vivacious stuff. I guess I didn't see how a lot of the build was prep for later.
Oh...That makes much more sense. In that case, SMI is a killer multipurpose spell.
Thanks for the clarification - this guy looks much more stable now. (Can you pull off Death By Awesome with this guy?)
i dont have access to the Planar Handbook right now... but i believe he can.. but normally i woudnt want to try, as i cant improve the save to the point where a creature wont make it... most Strong Monsters from this point on, have great Fort Saves and can easily make a DC 14-17 save(to avoid Death-by-Awesome).... and then will be beating on me and having Fast healing 1 that i would have given them ....
i wouldnt like thatonce i am able to cast 4th lvl spells(at 9th lvl).... i will be casting: Summon Faithful Servants.. to gain 1d4 lantern Archons(1 year Duration).. and cast it a lot... until i have 30+ flying around with me.... then they can Burn anything that comes near me(30(1d6 Light beams)) .... they can scout for me(flight and teleport)
:D
Of course, I haven't seen much Warlock presence in this thread - I keep looking at ways to boost the save for Incarnum Drain.
Also, what book has summoning spells with 1 yr durations at 4th level that give you archons as allies? (I bet it's Planar Handbook - I need to expand my library.)
Warlocks can help any party greatly, but suck on thier own(IMHO) until higher levels.... once they can Fly and Turn Invisible both... then they start to be able to function on their own..... the exception:
Pixie Warlocks... work great from the start...
a Pixie Warlock 1 should be easily able to handle the encounters... he has:
–4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.... which works great with a 25 boint buy
Fly 60(good)
Damage reduction 10/cold iron
greater invisibility
spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels
and Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
1/day :
lesser confusion (DC 14)
dancing lights
detect chaos, detect good, detect evil, detect law
detect thoughts (DC 15)
dispel magic
entangle (DC 14)
permanent image (DC 19; visual and auditory elements only)
but unfortunately is not allowed
:D
Firstly, my character started good, acquired the dragonborn template early, and then became tainted and turned evil.
About penalties:
Taint and corruption do not reduce your ability scores. Their maximum values are based on your wisdom and constitution score. I need the jade rods to absorb the taint because I gain taint every time I cast a spell thanks to Tainted Spellcasting, and approximately 10 more depravity points will turn me into a permanently insane NPC under the DM's control.
Well everything else seems legal, however you're doing a good bit of metagaming here. How does your character knows the exact amount of taintness he can suport? Since he gets more close to insanity whenever he gains taint, what made him stop right there, at the edge?
Stop rubbing it in!
@Leo:
Whats to say that he doesn't buy one jade rod, slowly acquire taint, stop at the edge of willpower, buy another jade rod, get more taint, etc. ? After 30ish points he probably knows how it feels, and before that he can just barricade himself with jade rods.
And that isn't even addressing the possibility that he just uses some sort of divination from scrolls/the local priest to figure out just how much taint he can get with his jade rods. By the way, Taint in its most recent form is from Heroes of Horror. OA is 3.0, IIRC, and HoH is solidly 3.5.
Also, what book has summoning spells with 1 yr durations at 4th level that give you archons as allies? (I bet it's Planar Handbook - I need to expand my library.)
Book of exalted cheese...I mean, exalted deeds. The same place where you got vow of nonviolence and apostle of peace.
Sorry to bring this up again, but thats not correct. This is a case of picking a and choosing which rules you follow. You are following the rules for template stacking in general but not the part about acquired templates in the Monster Manual. Acquired template do need to be applied to an already existing creature after conception. Just because it does not seem logical does not mean it is not RAW. If you want to argue the RAW of template stacking you have to follow all the rules not just some.
Thanks, I wasn't able to find it.
Naw, don't bother removing it, if that is true ... I had just thought that for monsters who only had levels, you just set the CR to be the character levels. Guess I am wrong.
Usually it works that way.
Actually, I remove the request for upping the EL of this, as I just noticed that it was listed as CR6 anyway ... (is this correct)?
Ok
And remember what we said pages ago, we pointed at Rules of the Game articles, which showed that when you use spells to create a lasting effect, and then regain the spells, then the lasting effect is no longer considered part of the spellcaster that created it (for xp/cr).
Odd, can you point me to that article.
Sorry to bring this up again, but thats not correct. This is a case of picking a and choosing which rules you follow. You are following the rules for template stacking in general but not the part about acquired templates in the Monster Manual. Acquired template do need to be applied to an already existing creature after conception. Just because it does not seem logical does not mean it is not RAW. If you want to argue the RAW of template stacking you have to follow all the rules not just some.
With the exception being that you are not modifying a creature in the normal sense. You're literally building it from scratch.
Or to put it another way: it is impossible for the effigy master's effigy to acquire the effigy template since it was never a legal target before, being literally only a collection of wood, leather, metal and wire and not a creature of any sort or legal type.
With the exception being that you are not modifying a creature in the normal sense. You're literally building it from scratch.
Or to put it another way: it is impossible for the effigy master's effigy to acquire the effigy template since it was never a legal target before, being literally only a collection of wood, leather, metal and wire and not a creature of any sort or legal type.
Which would be the case if it was and "inherited" template, which its not. What your saying is perfectly reasonable, however not supported by the rules.
It is unfortunate but true, you're interpretation of how its supposed to work may in fact be the way it was intended, however this is unprovable. By following the rules as written it must be applied to an existing creature. I am not saying that it is "best" way to handle the situation or even the way I handle it in my game. It is however the way the rules say it must be done and the rules as written are being used for the bases of this discussion.
Which would be the case if it was and "inherited" template, which its not. What your saying is perfectly reasonable, however not supported by the rules.
It is unfortunate but true, you're interpretation of how its supposed to work may in fact be the way it was intended, however this is unprovable. By following the rules as written it must be applied to an existing creature. I am not saying that it is "best" way to handle the situation or even the way I handle it in my game. It is however the way the rules say it must be done and the rules as written are being used for the bases of this discussion.
Then by the Rules As Written you will not be able to create a effigy creature as it is "built" rather than born. In all which makes more sense. No effigy creatures exist as it must be acquired and is created with the Craft Construct feat or that it the text is wrong in calling it "acquired".
As it is two separate parts of the text conflict so you must go with the primary source which would be under "CONSTRUCTING AN EFFIGY".
If that isn't enough from the Complete Arcane Errata
When the text within a product contradicts itself, our
general policy is that the primary source (actual rules
text) is correct and any secondary reference (such as in
a table or a monster’s statistics block) is incorrect.
Exceptions to the rule will be called out specifically.
Then by the Rules As Written you will not be able to create a effigy creature as it is "built" rather than born. In all which makes more sense. No effigy creatures exist as it must be acquired and is created with the Craft Construct feat or that it the text is wrong in calling it "acquired".
As it is two separate parts of the text conflict so you must go with the primary source which would be under CONSTRUCTING AN EFFIGY.
You have rightly pointed out the contradiction in the template, I do not however agree with simply arbitrarily deciding which part of the description to follow and which part to disregard. According to the primary source you would follow the Monster Manual over Complete Arcane, as the Monster Manual is the primary source for templates (from the MM 3.5 errata).
As to your Complete Arcane quote, the description of the effigy template is "actual rules text", "monster’s statistics block" would be the books example of an effigy lion but not the description of template it self.
I consider the primary source to be "Creating an effigy", wich comes first, and has all the rules to how they work.
This would disqualify both the effigy maker (only when it does the massive template stacking) and the taint mage (only taken to extreme)
I leave this question open to you guys,
btw --- as far as the effigy template ...
since you create a construct from wires/etc -- and it does not say you need a captive creature to turn into a effigy (borg, robot-men), then the only way that it could work is as betasquirrell said ... i.e. a creature like this needs to exist (infinite universe) but if it exists, he can effigize a copy (bizzaro superman)
I thought effigy was an acquired template because it could be applied to any creature, as opposed to an inherited template that would have to come at the beginning of the creature's existence - and changing it's type and affecting further template applications. It's an acquired template to specifically allow it to stack with other templates, IMO. Not to limit the forms that can be created, but to expand the list.
The costs to build it are spelled out according to size and HD. PERIOD. CR/LA do not factor into the cost, sorry. As such, Effigies and Effigy controllers/creators are overpowered/broken. It's a part of the game like Pun-Pun and Jumplomancers. While I think that insane template stacking is legal in a rules sense, it invariably becomes DM fiat.
I personally think that creating effigies is a "caster tactic," and cannot be easily replicated by non casters. Similar to the Explosive Runes trick, I think this is a caster win. *EDIT* By this I mean limited or not, due to the low cost of creating effigies I think that a build centered around powering them will be able to tackle anything encountered so far. HD is limited by caster level, and I'm not sure I'd agree that paying for a built construct is the same as paying for a built sword. This seems like a caster tactic to me. Just like a UMD "Animate Dead" necromancer wouldn't fare as well as a cleric/wiz/dread necro/etc.
Question ... is the no pun-pun rule exclusively for pun-pun, or is it really nothing from the campaign smashers (Theoretical optimization) -- i ask because way back when, there was an arbitrarily large str character who used that one disease ... but was disallowed under the no pun-pun rule.
This would disqualify both the effigy maker (only when it does the massive template stacking) and the taint mage (only taken to extreme)
I leave this question open to you guys,
Well, your original reason for banning Pun-Pun was that he was "impossible to challenge." It is possible to challenge Festering Anger Lad, Alverastarothavonsothabloth and Dan, it's just...really hard without specifically metagaming for them. (Sorry, Tainted Scholar, I just can't remember long names the first time I see them.)
Well, your original reason for banning Pun-Pun was that he was "impossible to challenge." It is possible to challenge Festering Anger Lad, Alverastarothavonsothabloth and Dan, it's just...really hard without specifically metagaming for them. (Sorry, Tainted Scholar, I just can't remember long names the first time I see them.)
Festering anger lad was disallowed, but not by me ... which is why I am asking.
[edit] We are on page 99 ... one more and then we hit 100 (yes, this is me, saying the obvious)
Question ... is the no pun-pun rule exclusively for pun-pun, or is it really nothing from the campaign smashers (Theoretical optimization) -- i ask because way back when, there was an arbitrarily large str character who used that one disease ... but was disallowed under the no pun-pun rule.
This would disqualify both the effigy maker (only when it does the massive template stacking) and the taint mage (only taken to extreme)
I leave this question open to you guys,
does it qualify as Overpowered?
is it Legal as per D&D 3.5 ?
thats what we are looking for arent we?
i say allow them... ta da 2 more Overpowered Caster Builds found
:D
I only partially buy your argument. It seems reasonable that a constructor would have to know what a is to make a clockwork , but it doesn't make any sense that to build constructs of out of wood and nails and "clockwork mechanisms and alchemy," the constructor needs to get a to apply his Effigy template onto. You think up a critter to replace , and build it. It doesn't make any sense that there has to be a lion with wings and acid resistance and tentacles for you to build such a monstrosity.
Acording to this, a normal lion effigy and a lion effigy with 20 pairs of wings and 100 times as srong cost exactly the same. That also doesn't make sense, but you don't seem to bother with it. The effiggy idea doesn't make sense no matter to how you look at it.
It's an acquired template. So either the idea doesn't works at all whitout houseruling, or you need to find that crow of doom and pretend to be doctor frankestein with it.
does it qualify as Overpowered?
is it Legal as per D&D 3.5 ?
thats what we are looking for arent we?
i say allow them... ta da 2 more Overpowered Caster Builds found
:D
You misunderstand ...
My question is whether or not these builds fall under the "No Pun-Pun" rule.
When I made that rule, I was not aware of the other TO builds.
If we allow these ... then what is the rational for disallowing the festering rage build?
If we allow these ... then what is the rational for disallowing the festering rage build?
There is none. Festering Anger Lad !=Pun-Pun
See, I agree with you when you say:
Pun-Pun is RAW legal at low levels, it is not usable, as with inifinite everything, it is impossible to challenge.
But take my Effigies for example. They don't have 'infinite everything.' In fact, they have infinite nothing! All they have is a high Str Score. Heck, Festering Anger Cancer Mage blows my effigies out of the water in terms of Strength (but not natural armor ;)). Even FACM doesn't get infinite Str though. Just +2/day.
(Page 100!)
There is none. Festering Anger Lad !=Pun-Pun
See, I agree with you when you say:But take my Effigies for example. They don't have 'infinite everything.' In fact, they have infinite nothing! All they have is a high Str Score. Heck, Festering Anger Cancer Mage blows my effigies out of the water in terms of Strength (but not natural armor ;)). Even FACM doesn't get infinite Str though. Just +2/day.
(Page 100!)
There is really very little difference between infinite and a really high score.
Is there a difference between a +70 to hit, or a +10000000 to hit? especially when we battle normal enemies?
Or between doing 140 damage per hit and 140000000 damage per hit?
So, do we need multiple examples of Festering Anger builds? With Reach, enlarged, whirlwind, etc ...
We also disallowed the Wish for Wishes build ... even without it resulting in pun-pun ... so ... I am opening up a new poll.
"Should the "No Pun-Pun" rule be extended to include anything from the campaign smashers (TO) thread"?
We currently have 2 votes against this expanded rule.
There is really very little difference between infinite and a really high score.
Is there a difference between a +70 to hit, or a +10000000 to hit? especially when we battle normal enemies?
Or between doing 140 damage per hit and 140000000 damage per hit?
So, do we need multiple examples of Festering Anger builds? With Reach, enlarged, whirlwind, etc ...
We also disallowed the Wish for Wishes build ... even without it resulting in pun-pun ... so ... I am opening up a new poll.
"Should the "No Pun-Pun" rule be extended to include anything from the campaign smashers (TO) thread"?
We currently have 2 votes against this expanded rule.
I don't agree with you that 'infinity' is about equal to 'very large.' And if you're calling +70 infinite, then I must respectfully suggest that you don't understand infinity.
Why are you even contemplating putting in multiple Festering Anger builds? You only need one. I'm not putting in 50 builds for my effigies. If I did you would simply lump them together and say, "Yes, effigies are powerful." The key is, these builds are pointing out one trick. Other, realistic builds (like Casty, Scorchy, and Hubert) are designed to show what a thoughtful build looks like and thus may have a few powerful tricks. The build I put in is a one-trick-pony. There is no need to show it again. Ditto for Festering Anger. It is one trick. Add a tick mark in the column!
The issue with onmi-ban is, the title of this thread is still "Overpowered Casters." Not "Overpowered Casters That Sane DMs Will Allow." And, if you change the title, then you introduce a shadowy figure to the thread - the Sane DM. Who is this person? Will he allow ? Will he nerf ? Perhaps he has houserules? Also, keep in mind that a Sane DM doesn't want overpowered characters, which is contrary to the point of this thread!
Lastly, I'm returning to your initial comment - about infinity and very large numbers being practically the same. If that's so, then what is the limit between acceptable and Very Large? Is my +70 over the limit? You say it is. What about +65? +60? +55? +25? +5? +0? Certainly not. But wherever you draw the line, it will be a restriction on the power of builds, which is counterproductive to your efforts. Let's look at this, an extrapolation of banning "Very Large Numbers":
- Infinity is banned, because it is impossible to challenge.
- Very large numbers are equal to Infinity.
- We can substitute.
- Very Large Numbers are banned, because they are impossible to challenge.
- What is a Very Large Number?
- A Very Large Number is something that defeats all challenges easily.
- ... //Which, if we aren't careful, will become
- In the search for Overpowered Casters, Overpowered Casters are banned because they are overpowered.
I don't agree with you that 'infinity' is about equal to 'very large.' And if you're calling +70 infinite, then I must respectfully suggest that you don't understand infinity.
Why are you even contemplating putting in multiple Festering Anger builds? You only need one. I'm not putting in 50 builds for my effigies. If I did you would simply lump them together and say, "Yes, effigies are powerful." The key is, these builds are pointing out one trick. Other, realistic builds (like Casty, Scorchy, and Hubert) are designed to show what a thoughtful build looks like and thus may have a few powerful tricks. The build I put in is a one-trick-pony. There is no need to show it again. Ditto for Festering Anger. It is one trick. Add a tick mark in the column!
The issue with onmi-ban is, the title of this thread is still "Overpowered Casters." Not "Overpowered Casters That Sane DMs Will Allow." And, if you change the title, then you introduce a shadowy figure to the thread - the Sane DM. Who is this person? Will he allow Explosive Runes? Will he nerf ToB? Perhaps he has houserules? Also, keep in mind that a Sane DM doesn't want overpowered characters, which is contrary to the point of this thread!
+1
If you're looking for Overpowered Casters, but continue to nerf or dissallow them, then I'm afraid you'll never find them.
Also, how are you ignoring the Alignment requirements of the half-dragon templated? (chromatic must be evil, metallic must be good, gem must be neutral). This is spelled out in Races of Dragon (Page 70).
exa:
Proven Overpowered Builds:
Pun-Pun
Builds with DMM(persistant)...Ikerens Cleric
Builds Using Effigies... BetaSquirrells Effigy Guy
if you want... include reasons why they are overpowered, and what is required to make them such(Feat trick, Spell Trick, DM allowing it, etc..)
:D
I don't agree with you that 'infinity' is about equal to 'very large.' And if you're calling +70 infinite, then I must respectfully suggest that you don't understand infinity.
If there is no percievable difference between a number and infinity, then the two can be held to be effectively equal.
For instance, if you roll to hit, and need a 1 to miss, and minimum damage kills the opponent. What is the difference between a large number and infinity?
Why are you even contemplating putting in multiple Festering Anger builds? You only need one. I'm not putting in 50 builds for my effigies. If I did you would simply lump them together and say, "Yes, effigies are powerful." The key is, these builds are pointing out one trick. Other, realistic builds (like Casty, Scorchy, and Hubert) are designed to show what a thoughtful build looks like and thus may have a few powerful tricks. The build I put in is a one-trick-pony. There is no need to show it again. Ditto for Festering Anger. It is one trick. Add a tick mark in the column!
Ah ... that makes sense. So, is festering anger a caster, or a noncaster? (the power of the build comes from an external source).
Also, if I buy effigies, and go through with them as a noncaster .. this would be different, right?
Lastly, if I combined builds ... would they be different? Like a commoner with effigies and festering anger.
1/2-Illithid
1/2-fey
1/2-troll
wendigo
arachnoid
pseudonatural
corrupted by the abyss
unholy scion
1/2-farspawn
half-elemental(x4)
gelatinous
Which I found in about 2 minutes on the Master Template list. This only makes my effigies more powerful.
I'm not going to talk any more about the Infinity, Large Numbers, and the Ban. We humored you by not thinking about infinity, but I'm not going to stand for a competition of "Find the build that is the closest to x in power but doesn't go above it 'cuz that's too overpowered for the overpowered thread." Go read my above post - it contains the answer.
I think the only question on that subject is, does this count as a caster-only tactic? It's not caster-exclusive, but they can access it faster than anyone else. By ignoring the speed at which abilities are gained, you could as well be comparing a level 100 fighter to a level 5 wizard.
For an example, a different character eligible to fight in a CR... 6 challenge, for an example.... can one AFFORD to get such a broken effigy with their WBL?
Well, after each half-dragon I can add another template that changes the type back. Ex: Half-Illithid. If you keep pressing this, however, I'll search for an acquired template that makes undead not undead and go with Evolved x5000. I need to check out Corrupted Creature.
I am just trying to keep things legal ... per your understanding of things, is your current build legal or illegal?
I think the only question on that subject is, does this count as a caster-only tactic? It's not caster-exclusive, but they can access it faster than anyone else. By ignoring the speed at which abilities are gained, you could as well be comparing a level 100 fighter to a level 5 wizard.
For an example, a different character eligible to fight in a CR... 6 challenge, for an example.... can one AFFORD to get such a broken effigy with their WBL?
The problem with effigies, is that the are priced according to HD and size. Not their broken-ness.
Per Complete Arcane, we could buy one of his effigies for $3000 gp, or 1/3 of our starting cash. In comparison, a +1 sword costs $2350 or so.
And the point is, casters get them first. Because making them costs 1/2 as much as building them, casters get them first (As I showed, they can be built at level 1).
Yes, my build is legal. If you really want I'll go through and stuff templates in to prove it. The 13 templates I found all change type away from Dragon, and they have ability mods themselves. With them I can probably eliminate the need for chromatic templates, which makes your alignment concern irrelevant.
Complete Arcane.
Thanks.
Nevermore: Effigy, Paragon, Lolth-Touched, Half-Dragon(red), Half-Illithid, Half-Dragon(blue), Half-Fey, Half-Dragon(green), Half-Troll, Half-Dragon(black), Wendigo, Half-Dragon(white), Arachnoid, Half-Dragon(copper), Pseudonatural, Half-Dragon(gold), Corrupted By The Abyss, Half-Dragon( bronze), Unholy Scion, Half-Dragon(silver), Half-Farspawn, Half-Dragon(force), Half-Elemental (Fire), Half-Dragon(rust), Half-Elemental (Water), Half-Dragon(prismatic), Half-Elemental (Air), Half-Dragon(topaz), Half-Elemental (Earth), Half-Dragon(amethyst), Gelatinous, Half-Dragon(emerald) Raven
Current posted build ... note the alignment issues ... but as you pointed out -- they can be easily corrected ... by using different templates.
This one currently looks very close to legal ... and I am going to stop talking about effigies.
Just as an FYI ... this thread was supposed to look for overpowered casters. Campaign buster techniques are something completely different ... however, as has been said, they are a sub-set of overpowered techniques.
Just as an FYI ... this thread was supposed to look for overpowered casters. Campaign buster techniques are something completely different ... however, as has been said, they are a sub-set of overpowered techniques.
Err, how? A very overpowered caster can bust a campaign easily.
Err, how? A very overpowered caster can bust a campaign easily.
From the Campaign Smasher 2 thread ...
This thread has a very specific purpose. It is to be a nexus for all of the tricks, combinations, and builds which, if allowed as-is, can almost immediately ruin a game.
Disclaimer: Intentionally ruining a game is an immature and selfish thing to do. We don't condone it. However, since there is a significant demand on the CO Board for such techniques, we might as well be efficient about it.
Background: While the majority of Character Optimization either occurs in the realm of theoretical exercise or play-enhancing-build-improvement, we are continually flooded with requests for options which downright destroy the game. The requesters might be trying to prove a point to someone back home, "challenging" the capability of the CO Board in general, or just curious. The problem is that every time these requests pop up, they are either ignored or haphazardly replied to, frequently producing a whole new round of re-explanation, cross-linking, and debate. This thread aims to make the whole process a lot smoother.
Methodology: The "Campaign Smashers" thread will provide a list of major combos/builds which have the capability to utterly disrupt a game. The list will include a brief explanation of each combo/build and a link to the major thread(s) discussing them. For the combos/builds which don't have their own threads, or are hard to read/access, members of the CO community can contribute their own short write-ups/explanations which will then be inserted into the main listing.
For now, we're using a working definition of a "Campaign Smasher" as:
A build or combination which produces primary game-benefits two orders of magnitude or more above typical comparable character-norms. When the benefit is non-numerical, community expert consensus will guide the determination.
But nevermind, this is just going to become another long, sidetracking debate.
The original argument Meyer presented was that casters were not overpowered for as many levels as they were underpowered. Well, why not make this easier by going to the bare minimum required instead of trying to go above and beyond. What do I mean by this? If a caster is overpowered at level 10 (10-20) then it is overpowered for more levels then it is underpowered.
Perhaps right now this is the real gray area where they are about even which is why a clear conclusion can not be drawn. Therefore, if casters can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt at level 10 that they are overpowered then perhaps Meyer's original argument has some merit.
I can agree with where some people are coming from that some casters seem to be grasping for straws to compete in this argument. Also, perhaps with a higher level some of the other optimizers will come out of hiding and show some truely magnificent combinations of sheer uncontemplatable amazingness or just a pile of poop that can kill everyone.
I can agree with where some people are coming from that some casters seem to be grasping for straws to compete in this argument. Also, perhaps with a higher level some of the other optimizers will come out of hiding and show some truely magnificent combinations of sheer uncontemplatable amazingness or just a pile of poop that can kill everyone.
Sounds good ... however for that, I would like to see a new thread get created for that, so that people won't be discouraged by 100 pages+. I am not willing to start the new thread, as this way (hopefully) a lot of the rancor I got during this thread will not be pointed my way. It will instead be pointed at the new thread moderator (or whatever term is used).
So ... whomever would like to start this new thread, please do ... You will probably want the first few posts reserved ... post rules/etc ...
Some of the things we learned during this thread:
1) Be detailed with mini-adventures. This means, sizes of rooms, distance between rooms, time elapsed between encounters. Starting locations of monsters.
2) Show encounter pre-knowledge.
3) Be very detailed with character creation rules.
4) Require/encourage people to link their fights to their characters ... else, it is very difficult to find them.
5) Determine judging criteria (is resting allowed/encouraged/frowned upon)
6) Builds that can handle multiple mini-adventures are more powerful/flexible than ones that can only handle 1-2.
7) Some caster builds are tremendous ...
8) Some noncaster builds are tremendous ...
9) Nova'ing increases short-term power
10) Using high level tactics early (PAO) distorts things
11) The high end for caster power seems higher than the high end for noncaster power
11) The high end for caster power seems higher than the high end for noncaster power
+1. Universal harmony has been reached. Shall we lay this thread to rest? And now, with but a few posts remaining on the golden page of 100, I present the Eulogy.
Dear Posters, we are gathered together this day to commemorate the death of The Overpowered Caster Thread. It lived a long and prosperous life, etc. etc...
We've seen an Explosive Runes character that blows everything up.
We've seen my Divine Metamagic cleric take on numerous CR 7 encounters, sometimes with consumables, sometimes without, as well as all CR 5 encounters presented.
We've seen that PaO and Alter-self, two spells, are stupidly powerful.
We've seen how powerful using creations can be (both undead and automated creatures).
What has the melee side shown us?
That they can buy spells, and compete almost as well by buying up lots of high level spells.
That they can defeat CR 5 encounters just like numerous of the casters presented, with some degree of strength and consistency (like many of the quickly done, semi-optimized casters presented).
I'd say it is fairly conclusive, and the next level gap should be 7, not 5, since many players have pointed out level 6/7 builds that become insanely powerful.
I also have a suggestion for easier running of these battles:
1) Create 5 generic encounter places.
A) Encounter 1: Outdoors, blizzard.
B) Encounter 2: Dungeon, tight halway, entrance.
C) Encounter 3: Dungeon Room, small
D) Encounter 4: Dungeon Room, medium and Trap
E) Encounter 5: Big boss, that you can prepare for, large room with lots of treasure around that you want to be careful with (IE, caution when flinging fireballs into rooms of precious tomes of knowledge, piles of gold that shouldn't be slag, etc).
2) List all the CR 7 encounters, CR 8 encounters, then CR 5 encounters, and CR 6/4 Encounters.
For each set, mix in 2 CR 7 encounters, one encounter that is 2 CR 5 enemies, one encounter that is a CR 4 and CR 6 enemy, and 1 big boss (the CR 8 encounter).
After creating 5 or so of these sets, people start running them. If you lose to an encounter, you use resources for full healing, then go on.
Each one, you write success (5/5), until you're at (XY/25) for the 5 encounter sets.
Then rank by number of successes. We can see here that numerous builds can defeat some equal CR encounters, but not all equal and higher ranked encounters. Builds that get 25/25 would be clearly overpowered, 20/25 would be powerful, 15/25 strong, 10/25 on par, 5/25 weak, 0/25 pathetic.
Because right now, I've shown the cleric defeating numerous encounters, but it isn't considered "conclusive".
Also, a set ruleset at the start would help. Changes to "No buying spells" and "No buying scrolls of spells higher level then you could normally access" and "Minimize consumables" foul up a lot of otherwise valid builds.
Overpowered = ???
how is a character overpowered?
if you run builds thru a series of Gauntlets.... what determines overpoweredness?:
[indent]
Sucessfully completing the challenge... but taking a long time
Sucessfully completing the challenge... but using a lot of Consumables
Sucessfully completing the challenge... but requiring Allies
Sucessfully completing the challenge... but requiring Setting Specific Material
Sucessfully completing the challenge... but Requiring questionable Rulings by DM
[/indent]
rankings of performance need to be set for each parameter:
[indent]
1)Time: 1-100 ... lower the number the better, represents time to complete Challenge(in my opinion, this determines Overpoweredness most...... a 20th lvl Wizard can complete all the challenges given.... but will do it much more quickly)
2)Resources: Gp value spent to complete ... Lower the number the better. How much Gold does it take to make something powerful ... again a 20th lvl Wizard can complete these challenges without spending any gold on consumable resources other than spell components
3)Simplicity: how much content is required from different Campaign Settings, can the build be made from Core(PHB, DMG, MM) or does it require 20 books
4)DM Allowance: does it require DM approval for any part, less is better. the fewer questionable rulings/DM twisting needed the better[/indent]
quantifiying "Overpoweredness" really needs to be done at the start .... and when examples that qualify are presented, simply acknowledge them, make a note, and move on.
Previous Post
Well, Manticore doesn't do squat against effigies (I suspect with the new templates touch AC has skyrocketed), and effigies hit 50% of the time. But that just leads into another long-winded debate.
How about this: Make a new thread, with its own profile, dedicated to just running gauntlets, since that is what you call power. By making this caster vs noncaster you've alienated a lot of people.
And, to be honest, this thread (large as it is) has only scratched the surface. Should I say noncasters stink because I've only seen one or two of them succeed? No. And you should not assume that the CO boards are showing you every single creation they've made. Look, someone should just start a new thread, without the flamewar incentive, and then maybe you'll see what you're looking for.
But look at this.
What you asked: Are casters overpowered?
What you got: Great casters can be better than great noncasters.
I'd say that's pretty much an answer. Whether it is or isn't, you aren't going to get any better answers here than you've already gotten. We've shown you a nice slice of caster power, and you don't want to accept it because you demand a cake. Well, we aren't going to spend time building you a cake in one thread when that cake is readily available if you look at the board. May I suggest you look at the Surrealdex? Just let the thread die and move on.
Please?
How about this: Make a new thread, with its own profile, dedicated to just running gauntlets, since that is what you call power. By making this caster vs noncaster you've alienated a lot of people.
And, to be honest, this thread (large as it is) has only scratched the surface. Should I say noncasters stink because I've only seen one or two of them succeed? No. And you should not assume that the CO boards are showing you every single creation they've made. Look, someone should just start a new thread, without the flamewar incentive, and then maybe you'll see what you're looking for.
But look at this.
What you asked: Are casters overpowered?
What you got: Great casters can be better than great noncasters.
I'd say that's pretty much an answer. Whether it is or isn't, you aren't going to get any better answers here than you've already gotten. We've shown you a nice slice of caster power, and you don't want to accept it because you demand a cake. Well, we aren't going to spend time building you a cake in one thread when that cake is readily available if you look at the board. May I suggest you look at the Surrealdex? Just let the thread die and move on.
Please?
Sounds good ... however for that, I would like to see a new thread get created for that, so that people won't be discouraged by 100 pages+. I am not willing to start the new thread, as this way (hopefully) a lot of the rancor I got during this thread will not be pointed my way. It will instead be pointed at the new thread moderator (or whatever term is used).
The reason I suggested level 10 was to appease Meyer and to make the distinction more clear. He seems to be dissatisfied to some degree with the current state of things. Realistically, we are trying to please Meyer with our examples because he is the one who presented the original proposition. Someone else continuing the thread somewhere else and taking over moderatorship serves no purpose because the original person whom we were using to judge the standard is not the judge anymore.
The real question is how many examples do you want Meyer? If you wanted just one, then isn't the DMM Cleric enough? If you wanted two, then is the Fleshraker Druid + DMM Cleric enough? If you wanted three, then isn't the DMM Cleric + Fleshraker Druid + Explosive Rune Abuser enough?
11) The high end for caster power seems higher than the high end for noncaster power
I too feel like you just admitted overpoweredness with that statement
Edit: I'm not trying to attack you, Meyer, but there is so much gray in this thread that I'm not even sure if we're looking for black and white anymore.
The real question is how many examples do you want Meyer? If you wanted just one, then isn't the DMM Cleric enough? If you wanted two, then is the Fleshraker Druid + DMM Cleric enough? If you wanted three, then isn't the DMM Cleric + Fleshraker Druid + Explosive Rune Abuser enough?Well, I'd like an Arcane Caster Not Relying On Summons/Henches Or HP Damage.
:D
Well, I'd like an Arcane Caster Not Relying On Summons/Henches Or HP Damage.
Wow, that seems like a narrow request for 5th level characters that has little to do with true demonstrations of power. At this level, HP damage and summons are both highly valid. If you'd like a Save or Die caster, you want to look towards higher levels.
Wow, that seems like a narrow request for 5th level characters that has little to do with true demonstrations of power. At this level, HP damage and summons are both highly valid. If you'd like a Save or Die caster, you want to look towards higher levels.
I knows. I was surprised at how well a focused blaster could manage a that point, but the things a God-Mage is supposed to do - making allies better, making enemies worse, controlling the battlefield - aren't really that helpful here, due to the lack of allies.
HP damage does also have the benefit that it makes Great Cleave a much less pointless - for an example, if a group of ten bugbears just took 15 points of damage from a fireball, and the Great Cleave fighter hits just one...
Personally, I'm somewhat interested at what a diviner/illusionist/enchanter line concept could do here. If you... For an example, pick Guerrilla Warrior and cast Invisibility and that spell which removes scent, you can just walk straight past the first encounter -- possibly all the way to the last one - without anyone ever detecting you. That DOES equal "winning", as far as the DMG's definition goes, anyway.
For example:
1 level of Ranger w/ Spiritual Connection (in place of Wild Empathy - Complete Champion) plus spellfire feat makes a powerful low level character.
If I get a chance I will play around with a Desert Kobold Ranger (Wildshape variant and spiritual connection) taking Draconic Rite of passage for another spell. Add in a few Rogue variant levels (fighter bonus feats(UA) and kobold sub) and some ToB goodness.
Of course a couple of flaws.
And for traits; Natural weapon trait from web enhancement (does that count as unarmed strike?? need to check) and pick up the aggressive trait like others did.
Of course being kobold I will take Dragonwrought.
Complete Arcane.
And the point is, casters get them first. Because making them costs 1/2 as much as building them, casters get them first (As I showed, they can be built at level 1).
Yes, my build is legal. If you really want I'll go through and stuff templates in to prove it. The 13 templates I found all change type away from Dragon, and they have ability mods themselves. With them I can probably eliminate the need for chromatic templates, which makes your alignment concern irrelevant.
I have been away from this thread for a while because I disagree with the rulings Meyer changed halfway. But I glanced back now and then, and this debate about effigies has caught my attention.
Effigies are magical items that can be broken.
Anyone can use magical items.
Effigies, therefore, do not show the power of casters in any meaningful way.
It is just like claiming that the character that can get a Candle of Invocation first wins D&D. True, and irrelavant.
The statement that casters can get effigies first (how much first, one level?) is meaningless too. Two commoners can pool cash and purchase an invincible effigy (with 50+ templates) before their wizard buddy can build it. And it is not even true only casters can make them, some magical creatures can make them through slas and build invincible armies easily.
And if they could, they would have. Which is why templated effigies are a campaign smasher the same caliber Candles of Invocation.
Spellfire (Magic of Faerun) would be a nice addition to any non-caster.
For example:
1 level of Ranger w/ Spiritual Connection (in place of Wild Empathy - Complete Champion) plus spellfire feat makes a powerful low level character.
Yes. However, if it's played the way it should... it's a trap.
Mechanically, Spellfire is powerful. However, it comes with it's own baggage - specifically, every evil caster up to low-epics, will want to kill you or use you. Also, some good people may also want to kill you, just in case you turn evil.
Two commoners can pool cash and purchase an invincible effigy (with 50+ templates) before their wizard buddy can build it. And it is not even true only casters can make them, some magical creatures can make them through slas and build invincible armies easily.
If they can buy it before a wizard builds it then where did it come from? Which magical creatures gain the benefits outlined in the Effigy Master class?
-AS-
Thus, we get the Kobold Half-fiend, Half-fiend, Half-fiend, Half-Fiend etc.
Well, Effigy is an aquired template, so it can be applied in the middle of a characters existence - say, after a creature has gained class levels. By creating a hypothetical template (a, b, c) x 20/y 20/z 20 and then applying Effigy to it, every HD except one goes poof, but extraordinary abilities not based on Constitution remain. I don't see what's so illegal with this. Heck, the Effigy template mentions dropping class HD, so RAI there was intent to make it handle classes.
I think the main issue people have with your builds are that they have tons of re used templates, like half-breeds of many different dragons or elements shouldn't count. This does not mean you can't have more then one tag, just that you have to be more tactful.
I don't have many of my books[pdfs] on me but, I also found a way to get around the issue of having to be there with the effigy to control it.
Wizard 1/Artificer 4
1-Practiced Spellcaster [Wizard]
3-Create Construct
[CL: Wizard 5, Artificer 4]
Create the Homunculus: 'Expedititious Messenger'
-This increases control range to a mile as it is your eyes, ears, and mouth
Create a Construct Effigy
-Main Body: Five headed Hydra [HD 5]
-Add on modifications:
--Effigy
--Half-Dragon
--Spell-Warped
--Titanic
--Mage breed[I think i have the name right]
After this you could add on intelligence thanks to Dragon mag which would work like the 'awaken' spell to give a being limited sentinal thoughts of which opens it to class levels.
There is a better construct in BoVD's demon section, the thing looks like a being from the movie series Alien which have a lot of effigy able feats making them one of the best templates, they are also small, medium, or huge size.
Also because an effigy is machine can't you change some of it's parts or enchant some of it's parts into magical items to make some insane monster that way? it will be more time [ use a Dedicated Wright ] and experience [ gain level 5 artificer and start sucking dry all non used magical items] and costly [ could build magic item then sell it back at a marked up price while party members pay you for everything as you are better then NPCs ]. When you are done you have a epic level construct.
So anyone controlling effigies can do the same thing.
Betasquirrell says casters can get them faster than non-casters (one lvl earlier).
But he doesn't show how a caster performs better than a non-caster with this effigies. Once he proved casters are more powerful at using effigies, people will stop to talk about it.
After that, there is a question about how many template you can add to an effigy.
I disagree that we are assuming an open market. If a caster can build something epically powerful, why would they ever sell them? They'd want to keep the power, and the secret of how to make the creation, to themselves, wouldn't they?
And just use them to beat all noncasters up and steal their money.
why would they ever sell them?
Who said they have to sell them ? A non-caster can put poison in the drink of the maker and only cure him if the maker gives him full control of the effigies (and let him die once he get control).
Or kidnap wife or friend or children of the maker.
There are lot of ways to get effigies out of a maker's control, buy is just one.
And you will always find people selling stuff very powerful as long as you offer them something they want.
Who said they have to sell them ? A non-caster can put poison in the drink of the maker and only cure him if the maker gives him full control of the effigies (and let him die once he get control).
Or kidnap wife or friend or children of the maker.
There are lot of ways to get effigies out of a maker's control, buy is just one.
And you will always find people selling stuff very powerful as long as you offer them something they want.
Concievable and realistic problems being the A: Fact that he'll kill you with effigies for threatening him, then drink down a potion of restoration, since poisons are rarely lethal and B: All his family and freinds likely have effigies that will eat your face off given half a backwards glance. So my point is, your "lots" of ways are ones that would only work on people who are already very, very dead for their lack of forsight and blatant stupidity.
Well, after each half-dragon I can add another template that changes the type back. Here:
1/2-Illithid
1/2-fey
1/2-troll
wendigo
arachnoid
pseudonatural
corrupted by the abyss
unholy scion
1/2-farspawn
half-elemental(x4)
gelatinous
Which I found in about 2 minutes on the Master Template list. This only makes my effigies more powerful.
I'm not going to talk any more about the Infinity, Large Numbers, and the Ban. We humored you by not thinking about infinity, but I'm not going to stand for a competition of "Find the build that is the closest to x in power but doesn't go above it 'cuz that's too overpowered for the overpowered thread." Go read my above post - it contains the answer.
This may have been mentioned before as I'm behind on this thread, but isn't there a hierarchy of types? There used to be one in I think Savage Species but that is 3.25.
Show
Kobold, Commoner 6
Str 11
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Char 6
Feats/Stuff:
Draconic Rite of Passage (disguise self)
Fey Heritage (F1)
Fey Power (F2)
Craft Wondrous Item (1)
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (3)
Craft Construct (6)
Skills:
Each knowledge 1 rank.
Equipment:
Nugget of Garl Glittergold (CC)
Potions of Invisibility
Oil of Repair Light Damage.
Effigies:
Kobold, Commoner 6
Str 11
Int 10
Wis 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Char 6
Feats/Stuff:
Draconic Rite of Passage (disguise self)
Fey Heritage (F1)
Fey Power (F2)
Craft Wondrous Item (1)
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (3)
Craft Construct (6)
Skills:
Each knowledge 1 rank.
Equipment:
Nugget of Garl Glittergold (CC)
Potions of Invisibility
Oil of Repair Light Damage.
Effigies:
Show
//Most of these templates are padding. If someone raises a fuss about some being illegal I'll find another to replace it.
Nevermore: Effigy, Paragon, Lolth-Touched, Half-Dragon(red), Half-Illithid, Half-Dragon(blue), Half-Fey, Half-Dragon(green), Half-Troll, Half-Dragon(black), Wendigo, Half-Dragon(white), Arachnoid, Half-Dragon(copper), Pseudonatural, Half-Dragon(gold), Corrupted By The Abyss, Half-Dragon( bronze), Unholy Scion, Half-Dragon(silver), Half-Farspawn, Half-Dragon(force), Half-Elemental (Fire), Half-Dragon(rust), Half-Elemental (Water), Half-Dragon(prismatic), Half-Elemental (Air), Half-Dragon(topaz), Half-Elemental (Earth), Half-Dragon(amethyst), Gelatinous, Half-Dragon(emerald) Raven
N Medium Construct (Extraplanar)
Init +1; Senses Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages none
———
AC 80, touch 20, flat-footed 70
(+60 natural, +10 Dex…)
hp 10 (1d10)
Immune (See Construct Traits)
Fort +0, Ref +10, Will +0;
———
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) land, 120 feet (24 squares) fly;
Melee bite +70 (1d2+70) or
Two claws +70/+70 (1d3+70/1d3+70 + possible Rend)
Base Atk +0; Grp +70
Atk Options x, x, …
Special Actions x, x, …
Combat Gear none
———
Abilities Str 150, Dex 30, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 1
SQ x, x, …
Feats Flyby Attack
Skills none
Possessions none
———
Rend (Ex): If Nevermore hits with two claw attacks against the same opponent, it automatically deals 2d4+70 damage.
Nevermore: Effigy, Paragon, Lolth-Touched, Half-Dragon(red), Half-Illithid, Half-Dragon(blue), Half-Fey, Half-Dragon(green), Half-Troll, Half-Dragon(black), Wendigo, Half-Dragon(white), Arachnoid, Half-Dragon(copper), Pseudonatural, Half-Dragon(gold), Corrupted By The Abyss, Half-Dragon( bronze), Unholy Scion, Half-Dragon(silver), Half-Farspawn, Half-Dragon(force), Half-Elemental (Fire), Half-Dragon(rust), Half-Elemental (Water), Half-Dragon(prismatic), Half-Elemental (Air), Half-Dragon(topaz), Half-Elemental (Earth), Half-Dragon(amethyst), Gelatinous, Half-Dragon(emerald) Raven
N Medium Construct (Extraplanar)
Init +1; Senses Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages none
———
AC 80, touch 20, flat-footed 70
(+60 natural, +10 Dex…)
hp 10 (1d10)
Immune (See Construct Traits)
Fort +0, Ref +10, Will +0;
———
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) land, 120 feet (24 squares) fly;
Melee bite +70 (1d2+70) or
Two claws +70/+70 (1d3+70/1d3+70 + possible Rend)
Base Atk +0; Grp +70
Atk Options x, x, …
Special Actions x, x, …
Combat Gear none
———
Abilities Str 150, Dex 30, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 1
SQ x, x, …
Feats Flyby Attack
Skills none
Possessions none
———
Rend (Ex): If Nevermore hits with two claw attacks against the same opponent, it automatically deals 2d4+70 damage.
Edit Never mind, I know now...
Someone, again, managed to mimic a caster to a limited success. You do the same trick by using all your feats and without access to spells and such. Is a class good if it can do a single caster trick, but neglects everything else? No, I think that simply proves casters are better, since you can't achieve all the other powers casters have...
Wait a minute here ...
BetaSquirrel's effigy build ... which just said "My effigies beat everything" was (is) held up as an awesome caster-only trick. Oh, his build has one more feat than I do (improved init). I am using commoner as my base to demonstrate the lack of importance of the character in this build. To increase his power, give him non-NPC class levels.
This kobold commoner build shows that effigies can be made just as easily by a non-caster as a caster. So here is the guy who will be selling the effigies on the open market ...
This is just me backing up what Saru said earlier this page ...
HAH!!! And, as a kobold, I have advantages in the Kobold Fun CR7.
Yeah, I think they can be bought. You could just as well argue that low-level Wizards are not going to get food because Commoners won't sell it to them. My point was that mimicing a caster trick while lacking everything else kind of endorses the claim of casters rocking your socks off.
How is BetaSquirrel's build "Rocking your socks off" as a caster when his spells are:
Spells:
I at least can charm person ... his character has none memorized
Edit: I haven't read through the thread for a while, so this comes a bit late, but I like the new look of the opening post. Spoiler tags were a nice catch.
Yourself?
I didn't say his build was, though with an optimized spell selection it hardly is a problem. He only presented an aspect of an optimized caster, the effect of correctly chosen spells have been shown in this thread for, what, 10 times by carnivore, PhaedrusXY, Jo Pistachio and, to some extend, yours truly, and some others as well.
This is correct, however, the only build we have that uses effigies is ran through as a non-caster. The build I have is, for all speaking purposes, the same as his. So really, what does his build bring to the table, other than effigies? Let me stress this ... HIS BUILD (no spells listed) ... if the answer is "nothing else", then how is my commoner build less than his? This is why people on this page have commented that the build is an equipment only build. Which this build mimics entirely.
Correction ... My cost multiplier is 50gp for the potions vs 15 for the charges from the wands ... so ... I guess that is why his is better?
Edit: I haven't read through the thread for a while, so this comes a bit late, but I like the new look of the opening post. Spoiler tags were a nice catch.
Thanks, ;) someone suggested it ... and I took their suggestion.
Everything your kobold can do, the caster can do or do better. The caster still has spells, even if he doesn't really use them. This is back to the same issue you had trying to make a wildshape ranger to stack up to the dino brothers. You can duplicate a subset of thier strength but they have so much more available. Now in this case if you allow effigies like that in your game they will clearly outshine those abilities in most situations, but arbitrarily large number is still smaller than arbitrarily large number + 1.
Who exactly do you think your convincing with "Well, if I make a build that is focused on mimicking casters, I can do it almost as well as casters without having capabilities to do much else" styled arguments?
Yourself?
To answer your question ... lets look at some recent posts:
I think the only question on that subject is, does this count as a caster-only tactic? It's not caster-exclusive, but they can access it faster than anyone else. By ignoring the speed at which abilities are gained, you could as well be comparing a level 100 fighter to a level 5 wizard.
For an example, a different character eligible to fight in a CR... 6 challenge, for an example.... can one AFFORD to get such a broken effigy with their WBL?
Apparently Senevri would like to know if non-casters can use effigies.
If they can buy it before a wizard builds it then where did it come from? Which magical creatures gain the benefits outlined in the Effigy Master class?
-AS-
Ander Spectacular would like to know if non-casters can make them.
I think the main issue people have with Betasquirrell's build is it doesn't show casters are overpowered, just that effigies are overpowered.
So anyone controlling effigies can do the same thing.
Betasquirrell says casters can get them faster than non-casters (one lvl earlier).
But he doesn't show how a caster performs better than a non-caster with this effigies. Once he proved casters are more powerful at using effigies, people will stop to talk about it.
Saru would like to know what BetaSquirrel brings to the table other than effigies.
I disagree that we are assuming an open market. If a caster can build something epically powerful, why would they ever sell them? They'd want to keep the power, and the secret of how to make the creation, to themselves, wouldn't they?
You think that only casters can have effigies as they are the only ones to craft them.
In short, the build I posted helped answer these people.
I'm not a real big fan of the interpretation that you can freely stack every template in the book on an effigy, and I certainly can't imagine a game in which that was allowed. That being said, making a kobold that can duplicate a portion of the casters power is still obviously weaker.
I would never allow something like that in any game I am in, and since the tactic is listed on "Game Smashers" thread, T.O. agrees that it is a monstrosity, however, no one wanted to ban "Game Smashers", so this was listed as a caster win.
Everything your kobold can do, the caster can do or do better. The caster still has spells, even if he doesn't really use them. This is back to the same issue you had trying to make a wildshape ranger to stack up to the dino brothers. You can duplicate a subset of thier strength but they have so much more available. Now in this case if you allow effigies like that in your game they will clearly outshine those abilities in most situations, but arbitrarily large number is still smaller than arbitrarily large number + 1.
I completely agree ... and if I used a class other than Commoner, then my build would bring something to the table as well ... however, having seen his character use the effigies to walk through the mini-adventures, we know that the character itself is irrelevant.
The Wizard still has his spellbook with every single Wizard cantrip and can sell it for big bucks and drown your Commoner to a pool of gold pieces. Other than that, there is no big difference.
:surrender
I forgot about that .... and since I am a kobold, the amount of gold it takes to drown me ... is much less than the amount it would take for me to drown him.
as PhaedrusXY noted... they need to do a lot of things before that happens
and i do have the Summon Monster 1(Vivacious Creature)
The Vivacious Creature substitution adds +1 to the level of the spell so you get a Vivacious Summon Monster I, from a Summon Monster II spell.
also Type stacking does not work that way..... correction..below
i did not check BetaSquirrells Build for this... but if it does it.. it is also invalid as it is not the correct way to add these.
:D
Yeah, I think they can be bought. You could just as well argue that low-level Wizards are not going to get food because Commoners won't sell it to them. My point was that mimicing a caster trick while lacking everything else kind of endorses the claim of casters rocking your socks off.
BetaSquirrel's spellcasting is 100% irrelevant for the build.
In other words: nobody cares you are a spellcaster or a commoner when you have an effigy with str 150 and AC 80
Nobody. Cares. At all.
Seriously, you are at the point that skill focus in basket-weaving is about as interesting as level 3 spells.
The Vivacious Creature substitution adds +1 to the level of the spell so you get a Vivacious Summon Monster I, from a Summon Monster II spell.
.... opps forgot about the Spl lvl boost.... still it should not matter... as Scorchy really doesnt need it... and can Pick up Summon Monster 2 later... or even get some Scrolls of it if needed:D
what can the commoner do when the Effigy is destroyed.... it has a Fort sav 0..... and 10hp.... a single spell can destroy it
The same thing that BetaSquirrel does ... Note, he ran his effigies through the mini-adventures already ... Running mine (which exactly mirror his) with the same tactics, should result in the same answer.
also Type stacking does not work that way..... there is a Heirarchy of Types... you take the one highest on the chart and Add other Templates as Subtypes(When applicable).... exa:
Outsider is on top
Dragon is next
Construct
etc...
Fey
Humanoid
Animal
say an Effigy was made...when you Add the Dragon type... then Add Outsider type... it is this:
Outsider(Dragon subtype)(Construct Subtype)
you cant continue adding 1/2 Dragon ... as is doesnt stack, and wont change the Type of a creature that already has the Dragon Type or Subtype
i did not check BetaSquirrells Build for this... but if it does it.. it is also invalid as it is not the correct way to add these.
:D
Again, my build attempts to mirror his build. Any issues with the effigies in my build are the exact same as his. Any solutions that are come up with in his, will happen in mine.
Concievable and realistic problems being the A: Fact that he'll kill you with effigies for threatening him, then drink down a potion of restoration, since poisons are rarely lethal and B: All his family and freinds likely have effigies that will eat your face off given half a backwards glance. So my point is, your "lots" of ways are ones that would only work on people who are already very, very dead for their lack of forsight and blatant stupidity.
Conceivable, yes!
Realistic is not a word I think I'd ever use in a fantasy game :D
With that being said, conceivably, his big brother could be a wizard 20 that is tired of babysitting his little brother so he had the effigy maker build him one so that big brother could go take over the world or die trying!
BetaSquirrel's spellcasting is 100% irrelevant for the build.
In other words: nobody cares you are a spellcaster or a commoner when you have an effigy with str 150 and AC 80
Nobody. Cares. At all.
Seriously, you are at the point that skill focus in basket-weaving is about as interesting as level 3 spells.
I don't know much about effigies, but if it is true that a noncaster can build one at the same rate as a caster, then I believe this statement to be completely true
Edit: I'd also like to add, that since the effigies are so much stronger then the character themself, then I can imagine a fighter building the effigies to lose at around the same time as the caster using effigies.
Double Edit: Also, if what above is true, then you get back to the core of the argument as well which is caster vs noncaster because if you take out the common denominator, which would be effigies in this case, then you again have your fighter vs wizard, George Bush vs wizard, etc
Page 293 MM
"Inherited templates are added to the base creature first before adding Acquired templates"
page 291 MM
"Templates that change Type give the Augmented Subtype"
correction to my above post#3025:
1/2 Dragon apears to be able to be applied multiple times... and they stack
but you must check:
Effigy, Paragon, Lolth-Touched, Half-Dragon(red), Half-Illithid, Half-Dragon(blue), Half-Fey, Half-Dragon(green), Half-Troll, Half-Dragon(black), Wendigo, Half-Dragon(white), Arachnoid, Half-Dragon(copper), Pseudonatural, Half-Dragon(gold), Corrupted By The Abyss, Half-Dragon( bronze), Unholy Scion, Half-Dragon(silver), Half-Farspawn, Half-Dragon(force), Half-Elemental (Fire), Half-Dragon(rust), Half-Elemental (Water), Half-Dragon(prismatic), Half-Elemental (Air), Half-Dragon(topaz), Half-Elemental (Earth), Half-Dragon(amethyst), Gelatinous, Half-Dragon(emerald) Raven
N Medium Construct (Extraplanar)
then see what is allowed:
Effigy Can be applied to any Corporeal:
Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Vermin.
anything that changes to Outsider, Undead, Construct, Fey, Ooze is invalid to be made into an Effigy
:D
Example: Monks belt. Delay spell casting advancement with a level of Monk or pay money? Pay money.
So I while I see the benefit of being able to do it yourself, especially if there are no Monks Belts for sale, I also dont think DIY crafting of most items is overpowered in comparison to paying retail.
If buying that Minion/Item/Etc. is not an option, then I see the win for the caster. If the money saved grants an overwhelming boon, in the form of insane savings, then I see the win for the caster.Other wise, I do not.
That being said, I can conceive of a single 5th level cleric who uses undead minions, explosive runes, extended spells,and alter self, with no use of Feats or Cash(beyond spell focus/components).
In fact Ive played such a cleric, minus the extended spells.
Undead creation through Animate Dead. Control through Divine Magician/Command Undead.Ditched turning for Scribe Scroll, a flavor choice.
Explosive Runes(Divine Magician) in opaque flasks, delivered via undead and Unseen Servant (Cloistered Cleric spell list), triggered by Amanuensis, a 0 level spell.
Alterself was acquired by using Spell domain, which I took along with the Spontaneous Domain Casting Alt Class Feature. This allowed me to use all my third level spell slots on prepping second level Arcane spell, but only could be prepped at any given time.
So, a bunch of the listed winning tactics in one build, played from level one to level 5, in a real game.Which one of these tactic did I use to rule and make the rest of the party feel silly?None.
-Undead: not acceptable in our suburban setting, saved for emergencies.
-Explosive Runes:He who lives by the Ex. Rune dies By-you get the picture, I didnot want the DM to adopt my tactic.
-Alterself:I had a great Ac via Sheild(more on that latter) and Mage Armor(Spell Domain)+2 for Dex,I really didnt need to be more of a thick shelled egg(high AC, low HP).
Nah, I used one of my feats to grab Arcane Schooling.My third level feat went to Inscribe Rune. On my "Off" days I used most of my spell slots to Inscribe Runes. Since they take 10 minutes per Rune, it didnt take me all day.And my money went to pay for wands. Any wand that would shore up my parties weaknesses. A wands of Shield for me and the party wizard, who inexplicably did not have this spell. CLW, Magic Missile,Knock,Magic circle vs Evil,etc.The market had anything I wanted that wasnt outright Evil.
And so I, a caster, Bought from other casters.Before the campaign died, I was packing almost 30 wands, of various descriptions.I had to commission a special set sheaths/holsters, and I had robes with hidden pockets.
So whats my point? Well, my "winning" tactic was buying magic items and using them. I was a caster with several cheaper, stronger tactics I theoretically could have used. But instead I bought stuff.
P.S. All the rest of my build resources went into flavor, supporting my role as a Sage,a Scribe, a humble servant of Thoth...Well I did also use Mother Cyst... but it was also for flavor...;)
:D
Effigy is limited to casters because the Effigy can only have HD up to the creater's Caster Level
Ahh, I see, thank you
i like that build... good job .... a real thinking Build
:D
Hey thanks! I should have chosen False Life before acquiring Alter Self , and some other changes would be made...Sadly, they all remain theoretical...
I hate it when a campaign dies!
Effigy is limited to casters because the Effigy can only have HD up to the creater's Caster Level
You might not have noticed, but the commoner has a caster level for his spell-like ability ...
You might not have noticed, but the commoner has a caster level for his spell-like ability ...
Shouldn't a tactic that relies on "caster levels" be considered inherently caster based?
After all without the spell-like ability you would qualify for the Craft Item feats.
Also I noticed something about when you gained those feats. You couldn't get Craft Wondrous Item till 3rd as you need a caster level of 3. Craft Magic Arms and Armor till 6th as you need a caster level of 5. Leaving you till 9th level for Craft Construct.
Shouldn't a tactic that relies on "caster levels" be considered inherently caster based?
If you are calling a commoner a caster ... then I have issues with that.
One of the things that keeps springing up in the thread, is that the character class is not what determines caster or non-caster status. People have suggested that if you use a wand/scroll/potion/item then you are a caster.
My problem with anything like that, is if this could be considered true, then at mid to high levels, there are no non-casters, so the entire discussion is meaningless.
After all without the spell-like ability you would qualify for the Craft Item feats.
Also I noticed something about when you gained those feats. You couldn't get Craft Wondrous Item till 3rd as you need a caster level of 3. Craft Magic Arms and Armor till 6th as you need a caster level of 5. Leaving you till 9th level for Craft Construct.
Did you notice the feats/items that increase my caster level ... exactly like BetaSquirrell does?
Shouldn't a tactic that relies on "caster levels" be considered inherently caster based?
If we assume that then the casters should be forbidden of any strategy that recquires attack rolls, since that is the realm of noncasters.
EDIT:Anyway, great work Meyer showing that you can get effigies whitout needing to be a caster.
If we assume that then the casters should be forbidden of any strategy that recquires attack rolls, since that is the realm of noncasters.
EDIT:Anyway, great work Meyer showing that you can get effigies whitout needing to be a caster.
Except that, you know, anyone can attack, only casters (or similar creatures) can cast spells.
Except that, you know, anyone can attack, only casters (or similar creatures) can cast spells.
And he isn't casting a single spell. It's a spell like ability. Completely diferent.
And it's a commoner for god's sake. Meyer showed that a low level commoner can also trash around ecounters with ease.
And he isn't casting a single spell. It's a spell like ability. Completely diferent.
And it's a commoner for god's sake. Meyer showed that a low level commoner can also trash around ecounters with ease.
Err.... I was replying to you saying that attacks are in the realm of noncasters. I didn't say anything regarding effigies.
cu
About that commoner, since when in this thread did you change from ECL to CR? IMHO the ECL of the commoner is still 6. So the caster does it still earlier?
cu
Eh ... not exactly, notice that I commented that the caster build requires a 350 gp item at first level (during character creation) for his final caster level. Without which, he cannot get get his final craft skill pre-req, so that he also should not be able to get craft construct (effigy) prior to 6th level. As a courtesy to BetaSquirrell, I am not listing that build as incomplete due to this minor issue.
No, the commoner, per DMG, has a reduced EL for being a kobold commoner, but you are correct that this means nothing. It was just something I pointed out.
However, this does remind me that I neglected to link the commoner from the front page. I am listing the commoner as a noncaster ... as commoners are not spellcasters.
27: Carnivore: Scorchy the Spellcaster: casts spells, takes names and Kicks Butt ... wins all encounters
:D
Just out of curiosity, how do you cast 1st level spells with 0 level slots? I don't know half those feats so I may be missing something.
Versatile Caster(Dragon Magic) .... allows Spontaneous Casters to use 2 lower level Spell Slots to cast a spell 1 level higher:
2 Spell Slots of 0-lvl can be used to cast a single 1st lvl Spell
2 Spell Slots of 1st lvl can be used to cast a single 2nd lvl Spell
2 Spell Slots of 2nd lvl can be used to cast a single 3rd lvl Spell
etc....
as for the other feats:
Heighten Spell : PHB
Earth Sense : Races of Stone
Earth Spell : Races of Stone
Empower Spell : PHB
1st Lvl Fiery Burst(reserve) : Complete Mage
3rd lvl Versatile Caster : Dragon Magic
5th lvl Practical Metamagic(Empower Spell) : Dragon Magic
Iron Will..from location.. Complete Scoundrel
6th lvl Arcane Thesis(Scorching Ray): PHB 2
Energy Substitution(Sonic)(Incantatrix bonus): Complete Arcane
:D
:D
Energy Substitution(Sonic)(Incantatrix bonus): Complete Arcane
Sonic isn't an allowable energy type for Energy Substitution.
-AS-
The "Consolidated Scoring" section looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.
Wierd ... I had through that someone had volunteered to take over that portion of this ... to help keep things more un-biased.
Should I re-start the scoring? If so, I would like to have it look as follows:
Consolidated Scoring
Sonic isn't an allowable energy type for Energy Substitution.
-AS-
opps... then i will adjust ..... probably will go with Energy Substitution(Fire) .. to further boost the damage later with Energy Admixture.... also to make some other Spells fire spells ..... at this level it doesnt really matter.... or i could replace it with something else if there is any useful Metamagic feat you can think of
:D
opps... then i will adjust ..... probably will go with Energy Substitution(Fire) .. to further boost the damage later with Energy Admixture.... also to make some other Spells fire spells ..... at this level it doesnt really matter.... or i could replace it with something else if there is any useful Metamagic feat you can think of
:D
You could just use Energy Sub Acid instead.
He's very vulnerable to the "Get beat up by his teammates" encounter. Which he probably deserves given his cavalier attitude toward his teammate's gear. Both the tavern encounter and the elemental encounter were made much harder by the encounter setups for him than if he had been even slightly prepared for a fight.
I attached details to the same post the CR5 version went through, and cross-linked it all to the character descriptions, so you can get at it by the front page if interested. The main overall change is that my horses kept dying. APL7 is tough on generic warhorses.
I'm pretty sure that PW: Pain would (with a little protection) secure your low-level success at least...
What I discovered is that in most cases, doing small amounts of damage/round means you need incredible defense to stay alive. (with big damage/round, you can get away with more normal or even weak defenses). Winning isn't killing the enemy by itself. You have to also survive the challenge.
Power word pain requires you to be in line of sight and close range. If your plan is evasion rather than being super-tough, you need a plan for surviving surprise round+lost initiative and probably also for being grappled or otherwise prevented from moving after you stick the power word pain.
Invisibility and flight are helpful, but aren't a sure thing in many of the gauntlets. They're great tools to have but do not guarantee success. Generally success in slower damage builds has been tied to either super high AC or a mix of decent AC+decent damage reduction. Sometimes to deception (Level 7 Bela would send summoned mules ahead of him to trigger traps or dumb monsters, and somebody else tried a similar approach with unseen servants and disguise check on stuff they're carrying to make them more like creatures) to minimize the impact of the surprise+lost initiative.
The build with the super-metamagiced scorching ray is almost certainly superior to a power word pain build, in that when the character gets to act, he can kill outright most enemies in a single action. He doesn't have to worry about how to survive while the spell slowly degrades the hitpoints.
The build with the super-metamagiced scorching ray is almost certainly superior to a power word pain build, in that when the character gets to act, he can kill outright most enemies in a single action. He doesn't have to worry about how to survive while the spell slowly degrades the hitpoints.
Also Power Word Pain is a Mind Affecting Spell and the damage is not enough to kill before they kill you
it boils down to this:
Great AC and Flight ..... + Slow but Sure damage(Acid Arrow or Acid Splash(Reserve)) = Win
Great AC and Flight .... great Melee ability(toughness(DR) and Damage dealing(touch attacks or big weapon and Strength)) = Win
Medium to Poor AC and Flight ... + Great initial Damage = Win
the Undead Raising/Controling builds are Attrition based... evey win gives them more power and an expendable resource
:D
Also, unless you are referring to some variant of Acid Arrow that I'm not familiar with, PW pain is better than Acid Arrow (against creatures that are subject to mind affecting spells). This isn't meant to say you shouldn't take Acid Arrow (it allows for Acidic Splatter and whatnot) but that PW pain does more damage (albiet slower) at low levels 4d4 vs 4d6. Slow but sure damage right? (Although I could see you being worried about ranged attacks).
Have you had time to put together your fight for the Full Moon encounter? I am looking forward to seeing how the werebear got handled by the druid ...
there are other ways also
:D
*edit*
TMPCE thread is at 3089, Psionic Motivators is at 3212, so... third place?
I can't belive this went to over 3000 posts... is tthat a record or something?
I don't think so...
But if everyone keeps posting on this topic it may eventually get to...
OVER 9000!!!
This thread kinda died... I was enjoying it too. Good examples of optimized builds in play with a mild variety of challenges.
:D
:D
Go go Alix!
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Bloodline_of_Fire,all
XOXO
For [post=14547448]Alix the Fiery[/post] the Warmage:
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Bloodline_of_Fire,all
XOXO
yes ... Bloodline of Fire is a Great Regional Feat... and would work for most Warmage builds... especially if they were Human, but Alix is a Neraph, thus would require DM approval to take that feat
:D
Have Tshern and carnivore built an Alix20? I'd love to see how that would come out.
Alix 2.0 ..... what would the constraints be? ..... general purpose build for normal campaigns?
i wouldnt mind .... will check with Tshern later
:D
Alix 2.0 ..... what would the constraints be? ..... general purpose build for normal campaigns?
i wouldnt mind .... will check with Tshern later
:D
I was thinking about what Alix might look like at level 20. If you could use WoTC products (minus the uber-cheese) and continue along the same lines as you've started here. The idea here wouldn't be to suddenly turn diplomancer, but rather extend the logic you started with here. I'm open to whatever other constraints you think would be appropriate.
I was thinking about what Alix might look like at level 20. If you could use WoTC products (minus the uber-cheese) and continue along the same lines as you've started here. The idea here wouldn't be to suddenly turn diplomancer, but rather extend the logic you started with here. I'm open to whatever other constraints you think would be appropriate.
sure ... that sounds good... i will start working on it
:D
:D
you're no fun ... i wanted to finish working it up to see exactly what she would have before it was posted .... no problem... thats what i was going for as well..... it seems the ideal direction for a Warmage
:D
Hey, we can still flesh out the details. Otyugh hole for Iron will and such. I am sure it still requires optimization.
Hey, we can still flesh out the details. Otyugh hole for Iron will and such. I am sure it still requires optimization.
sure .. no problem, will send you a PM later with more stuff ;)
:D
sure .. no problem, will send you a PM later with more stuff ;)
:D
I take that as a challenge then. Let's make a decent Warmage, shall we?
you're no fun ... i wanted to finish working it up to see exactly what she would have before it was posted .... no problem... thats what i was going for as well..... it seems the ideal direction for a Warmage
:D
Just a thought . . . I think you may have an alignment issue with both Neraph and Rainbow Servant, but I may be misremembering.
Just a thought . . . I think you may have an alignment issue with both Neraph and Rainbow Servant, but I may be misremembering.
Neraph is a Race from the Planar Handbook... and has no Alignment component..... thus no problems
:D
Neraph is a Race from the Planar Handbook... and has no Alignment component..... thus no problems
:D
I hear you. But here's where I think the problem lies. In the Planar Handbook on page 11 under Neraphim it says:
Alignment: even though they hold themselves above the general churn of Limbo, neraphim can't help having one chaotic component in their alignment. They try not to give into their chaotic nature, and generally are successful in this practice.
... italics mine.
And I think Rainbow Servant can't be chaotic.
I hear you. But here's where I think the problem lies. In the Planar Handbook on page 11 under Neraphim it says:
... italics mine.
And I think Rainbow Servant can't be chaotic.
good catch..... i didnt see that when i read it(a long time ago, i dont even have the book any more)....
still for alignment changes..... thats why this was published:
Atonement
Abjuration
Level: Clr 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S, M, F, DF, XP
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.
Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points.
Restore Class: A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP.
Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
Material Component: Burning incense.
Focus: In addition to your holy symbol or normal divine focus, you need a set of prayer beads (or other prayer device, such as a prayer wheel or prayer book) worth at least 500 gp.
XP Cost: When cast for the benefit of a creature whose guilt was the result of deliberate acts, the cost to you is 500 XP per casting (see above).
alignment is up to the Players themselves to choose and live up to
;)
:D
Wow. That reminds me: The reason hp damage is sub-par later on is because everyone has so much HP on higher levels.
I'm sorry what? What is the world record HP anyways? The highest practical I can remember is Mr. Icy Hot but he didn't even break 500. The highest I can think of would be an illithid savant that can't break 1000.
Thats kinda measly considering a good charger build can do several thousand damage MINIMUM (like my way more than uber charger in my sig). I always thought damage scaled WAY more than hp...
So yay or nay - did this thread die? Meyer took it to over 100 pages but hasn't responded in 28 posts. If It didn't...
I'm sorry what? What is the world record HP anyways? The highest practical I can remember is Mr. Icy Hot but he didn't even break 500. The highest I can think of would be an illithid savant that can't break 1000.
Thats kinda measly considering a good charger build can do several thousand damage MINIMUM (like my way more than uber charger in my sig). I always thought damage scaled WAY more than hp...
I'm pretty sure true_shinken's feat record holder "the True Dilettante" would hold the record for HP. 504 feats...
HP = HD +Con Bonus*HD +20 (Improved Toughness) +1509 (Toughness x 503)
I'm pretty sure true_shinken's feat record holder "the True Dilettante" would hold the record for HP. 504 feats...
HP = HD +Con Bonus*HD +20 (Improved Toughness) +1509 (Toughness x 503)
It's not like he can choose all of them.
It's not like he can choose all of them.
If you mean what I think you mean, actually, he can. He's gaining the feats by swapping out his other feats with his cohort using the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos trick. There's no limit to the feat you can choose, so long as you meet the prerequisite.
I'm sorry what? What is the world record HP anyways? The highest practical I can remember is Mr. Icy Hot but he didn't even break 500. The highest I can think of would be an illithid savant that can't break 1000.
I'm sorry, was I being unclear.
MONSTER HP.
PC HP doesn't scale as well, which is in fact a bit of a problem with custom NPCs. Unless you're optimizing, a 9th-level HP damage spell typically does about 70-100 points of damage. Even a typical empowered spell is a bit above 100 points of damage. You need some serious (well, semi-serious) optimization - not to mention splat books - to get decent HP damage done.
And cohorts using the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos trick is wrong in so many ways... might as well go for full ascension if you those spells exceptable. But even so a character that used that trick wouldn't be able to reach 2000hp which again is still under the minimum possible in many builds (magic or melee)
So yay or nay - did this thread die? Meyer took it to over 100 pages but hasn't responded in 28 posts. If It didn't...
Sorry, hadn't realized that anything was needed from me ... here I go ... replying
(yes, I understand that this is a slightly different username, but WOTC cancelled the old one for inactivity).I'm sorry what? What is the world record HP anyways? The highest practical I can remember is Mr. Icy Hot but he didn't even break 500. The highest I can think of would be an illithid savant that can't break 1000.
The world record is infinite (pun-pun), a lower value is used by shapechanging into a shambling mound and electrifying yourself to raise your con score through the roof (this is explained much better towards the start of this thread).
even so a character that used that trick wouldn't be able to reach 2000hp which again is still under the minimum possible in many builds (magic or melee)
Uhh... do people actually play builds that can regularly do over 1000 damage per round in your games?
I mean seriously... in a typical game, I'd say monster hit points outstrips damage capacity at the higher levels, but not hugely. 9+ PCs optimized to the point where they can do 1000 damage per round is pretty FAR from typical.Yes this did mean I could 1 shot most things. But so could many of the other members in the party - and I purposely built in weaknesses to make my character controllable (no dungeon fighting for squeezing, no compression, few immunities, no burrow or fly speed, etc). Most of the DM's tools are situational rather than optimizational so it wasn't really a problem to contain a bunch of 1 trick monkeys (the others were a shapechanger hellfire warlock, a psion Illithid, TOB non-psionic thrikeen dervish and a dual progression cleric going heal-bot)
In larger parties I only play weaker things like CoDzilla
sure ... that sounds good... i will start working on it
:D
Will you post it here or in its own thread?
Anyone want to write up any new challenges or make a new gauntlet -- as I know that I had a lot of fun in the 3-4 of them that I helped make/run.
Based on results on past ones, I will not want to be hosting/managing the runs as it frequently turns into charges of bias.
Hey all ... its me again ...
Anyone want to write up any new challenges or make a new gauntlet -- as I know that I had a lot of fun in the 3-4 of them that I helped make/run.
Based on results on past ones, I will not want to be hosting/managing the runs as it frequently turns into charges of bias.
Idea seconded, but as usual I refuse to take any responsibility.
I'd probably play again, the divine metamagic persist + spell boosting consumables, this time using spreadsheets for clarity's sake.
*edit*
Tried to rescue some of the adventures into OO documents.
I now hate OpenOffice.
Also, carnivore already showed me a build that went through the challenge with no troubles at all. I am sure I could do the same thing again.
A decent illusionist would probably be able to skip some of the encounters entirely. Hm.
Sure, you can play it with your favourite class, but some do it with style.
Certainly, as all know I am an ardent fan of... wait, we had WARMAGE?
Sure, you can play it with your favourite class, but some do it with style.
absolutely .......
Certainly, as all know I am an ardent fan of... wait, we had WARMAGE?
Sure, you can play it with your favourite class, but some do it with style.
absolutely .......
And that came from the brains and soul of the operation, I was just the fingers.
Some of the scoring methods we used were the following:
1) Ease of DM approval of character
2) Ability to handle encounter
3) Resources used (iron-man competition)
4) Forgiveness of dice (some builds could not survive one more hit, others could have taken multiple hits)
And there were others.
Lastly, this had been a spellcaster vs nonspellcaster competition .. unsure if you still want to use that -- or just do an arena-type thread like we also did.