Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 loneknife Sep 01, 2006 0:57:05	Experience is a River CO is about exerting any numerical advantage possible. Often this is expressed by selection of classes, races, feats, skills and weapons among other things. How to maximize PA damage and take more attacks or actions per round. I see plenty of threads that deal with exploits of these mechanics, however I have yet to see one about exploiting raw experience one of the most fundamental and important mechanics of the game, and by the way a set of rules that is easily exploited. Experience Rules DMG 37 Experience Table DMG 38 All other things being equal a character of lower level gains more experience than a higher level character for any given encounter. The assumtion is that the lower level character is weaker and needs more experience - the encounter was harder for him and he expended a greater number of resources. This lower level character's level will be adjusted over time to help him catch up to the higher level character. I call this Free Experience or the Experience River. Both characters were subjected to the same encounter but the lower level character got extra experience, Free Experience. Suppose we can craft a character that although lower level is numerically superiour? Then the lower level character really is getting free experience, and the CO Gods smile upon us. AH - a clear numerical advantage! How do we exploit it? (NOTE the Experience River is dependent on your DM giving experience based on your actual level, not fixed experience or average party level (as mine does)) But Wait you have to be lower level to get that experience! That can't be worth it! (This is the CO boards... anything is possible. We shall at least consider the idea.) Fear not gentle reader! Read on. Let us consider a Pc, Mildred the unfortunate, who through her adventuring career (levels 1-19) stays one level behind her companions (1-20) and collects extra experience. How much extra does she gain over the party average? For simplicity sake we are going to make the following assumption: all encounters are at the normal party level. well here is my handy spread sheet [HTML] P level P_Exp 1 Factor M_Exp Free_Exp Tot_Exp Running_Exp 1 1000 1 1000 0 1000 1000 2 2000 1 2000 0 1000 2000 3 3000 1 3000 0 1000 3000 4 4000 1.13 4500 500 1500 4500 5 5000 1.07 5333.33 333.33 1333.33 5833.33 6 6000 1.25 7500 1500 2500 8333.33 7 7000 1.29 9000 2000 3000 11333.33 8 8000 1.31 10500 2500 3500 14833.33 9 9000 1.33 12000 3000 4000 18833.33 10 10000 1.35 13500 3500 4500 23333.33 11 11000 1.36 15000 4000 5000 28333.33 12 12000 1.38 16500 4500 5500 33833.33 13 13000 1.38 18000 5000 6000 39833.33 14 14000 1.39 19500 5500 6500 46333.33 15 15000 1.4 21000 6000 7000 53333.33 16 16000 1.41 22500 6500 7500 60833.33 17 17000 1.41 24000 7000 8000 68833.33 18 18000 1.42 25500 7500 8500 77333.33 19 19000 1.42 27000 8000 9000 86333.33 20 20000 1.43 28500 8500 9500 95833.33 Totals 210000 285833.33 75833.33 95833.33 [/HTML] Exp_Factor is how much more experience mildred earns on the experience gained. The extra experience a character earns for a Cr +1 encounter when her level is one lower than the party average. M_Exp = P_Exp * Factor Free_Exp = M_Exp - P_Exp (how much more exp you get than the party) Tot_Exp = Free_Exp + 1000 (how much you have to spend to stay a whole level behind, note this is useless for levels 1-3 as there is no experience gain, might as well spend 4.5 exp at level 3 to stay there until the party advances to level 5 and you to level 4) Running Exp = accumulation of Tot_Exp up to this level (like char wealth by level as opposed to expected wealth gain DMG 135 vs. DMG 54) so by staying behind 1 level Mildred will earn ~ 75 k more experience than her companions. (she also needs to spend 20k to prevent premature leveling) The Question then becomes: Is spending ~ 95k experience worth a level? Or: Does spending the free Exp at any level justify the loss of the level? Well it depends, on what you spend it on!! Can you make up a caster level, HP, BAB, Saves, Class abilites, For one level with the given exp?? Well, gentle reader I beleive that you can. As of now i see 2 ways to exploit the experience river - though CO regulars will no doubt find more. 1 Item Creation 2 Pcs with LA I - Item Creation [HTML] P free gp Tot gp Running gp Char Wealth by level 1 0 12500 12500 0 2 0 12500 25000 900 3 0 12500 37500 2700 4 6250 18750 56250 5400 5 4166.67 16666.67 72916.67 9000 6 18750 31250 104166.67 13000 7 25000 37500 141666.67 19000 8 31250 43750 185416.67 27000 9 37500 50000 235416.67 36000 10 43750 56250 291666.67 49000 11 50000 62500 354166.67 66000 12 56250 68750 422916.67 88000 13 62500 75000 497916.67 110000 14 68750 81250 579166.67 150000 15 75000 87500 666666.67 200000 16 81250 93750 760416.67 260000 17 87500 100000 860416.67 340000 18 93750 106250 966666.67 440000 19 100000 112500 1079166.67 580000 20 106250 118750 1197916.67 760000 947916.67 1197916.67 [/HTML] Basically we are multiplying the table above by 12.5 to find out what the exp is worth free gp = 12.5 * free tot gp = 12.5 * tpt Running gp = 12.5 * run exp is worth 12.5 gp because you have to pay for materials, except for maybe the last time when you no longer need to seed the pot... but my mind is foggy if you figgure out what i mean and have a way of clearly saying it please feel free. oh, figgured it out basically char wealth by level is worth twice as much because you turn it into magic items, but any extra exp can be sold at 12.5 gp ... So divide char wealth by level by 12.5 canabalize that much exp to make 2x char wealth by level stuff. then multiply the remaining gp by 12.5 for what you can create(unless you have an alternate $ source) By level 19 you can gain 95k extra exp to spend. In order to burn all of this exp you can spend up to 2.4M gp and get 4.8 M gp worth of eq! Of course you won't have 2.4 M to spend, but you can double your character wealth at any level by making magic items. I'll leave it to others to figgure out how far behind you would be if you only double your character wealth. You can spend experience to make money as follows(depending on supply and demand): let's say you have 1,200 exp to spend but only 10k gp. in order to spend the whole 1.2k exp you would need 30k gp and would get 60k gp worth of eq. Turn your exp into cash: take orders spend 10k gp and 400 exp to make products sell for 20000 gp use 800 exp and 20k gp to make 40k worth of eq! Perhaphs someone can recomend a money making thread or find a way to exploit hireling/henchmen/followers/nanobots so you don't have to expend exp, though you could do this with a simple craft feat and time(or a shop and employees). mildred level 19 with 95k exp and 760k gp to spend goes to work and spends 760k on items for sale on the market. she spends 30.4k exp but gets 1.52 M to spend and still has 59.6 k exp to burn. spending the exp and money gets her ~ 1.49 M worth of eq and she has 30k yet to spend roughtly doubling her 20th level Char wealth. if however you can get 2.4M gp that's 4.8 M eq. Now what about time frame? spending 96k exp at 40/day? 2396 days or 6.56 years of solid work. (great, a little bit closer to venerable!!) Given: There is a bottle somewhere that stores EXP, so if you die after you are brough back to the same exp total(i think that's how it works) Question: how many times to you have to kill yourself before you have enough $? Now that you have unlimited wealth ... II - Pcs with LA (or catching up) UA has options to do a level buy out, trade out LA for EXP. Basically you are paying experience for even more free experience and taking some handy bonuses to boot. Also you may want to catch up on experience and are wondering how long it will take. The left column is the level at which you start catching up The top row is over how many levels you catch up. [HTML] P 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 1 1 1 0.89 0.83 0.63 0.36 0.16 0.05 0.01 2 1 1 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.41 0.20 0.07 0.02 0 3 1 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.52 0.31 0.14 0.04 0.01 0 4 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.52 0.40 0.23 0.10 0.03 0.01 0 5 0.94 0.75 0.58 0.44 0.33 0.19 0.08 0.02 0 0 6 0.80 0.62 0.47 0.36 0.26 0.14 0.06 0.02 0 0 7 0.78 0.59 0.44 0.33 0.24 0.13 0.05 0.01 0 0 8 0.76 0.57 0.42 0.31 0.23 0.12 0.04 0.01 0 0 9 0.75 0.56 0.41 0.30 0.21 0.11 0.04 0.01 0 0 10 0.74 0.54 0.40 0.29 0.20 0.11 0.04 0.01 0 0 11 0.73 0.53 0.39 0.28 0.20 0.10 0.04 0.01 0 0 12 0.73 0.53 0.38 0.27 0.19 0.10 0.03 0.01 0 13 0.72 0.52 0.37 0.26 0.19 0.09 0.03 0.01 14 0.72 0.51 0.36 0.26 0.18 0.09 0.03 15 0.71 0.51 0.36 0.25 0.18 0.09 16 0.71 0.50 0.36 0.25 0.18 17 0.71 0.50 0.35 0.25 18 0.71 0.50 0.35 19 0.70 0.49 20 0.70 [/HTML] Say you are 3000 exp behind at level 4, how far behind will you be in 3 levels? Go down to row 4 (4th level) intersect it with column 3 = .67 3000 * .67 ~ 2000 -- you'll be 2000 exp behind. What about in 7 levels? row 4, column 7 = .10 -- 3000 * .1 = about 300 exp behind at 10th level. how about 3000 exp at level 3 and 6000 exp at level 6 what will things look like at level 10? (3,7) .14*3000 = 420 (6,4) .36*6000 = 2160 = 2580 as above but level 12? 30 + 840 = 870 Observations on LA: The more levels you take the closer you get to the party average. The higher your level the faster you catch up.(which is interesting i think you need it more at lower levels) CONCLUSION Experience is a river. Now you have a paddle. Use it wisely! I believe that craft wonderous item is the best feat ever! Know how long a LA will take you to pay off (great way to get free racial bonuses). Tell your DM that instead of leveling to level 20 you want to have level to 19 and have infinite wealth. Except you can have infinte wealth before that and catch up to level 20, not that it will matter. SO .. what can you do with double character wealth? How far behind does it really put you? How many levels untill you get the +2 LA template for free? ALSO Experience MAY NOT BE a river in your campaign(if every one gets the same exp or it's not based on char level) Showing this to your DM probably won't help. :P You can sell your exp at market value for 12.5 gp/exp point with item creation feats, max 40 exp/day. You can make 500 gp a day by spending 500 gp and 40 exp to make 1000 gp item taking out material costs leaves you with 500 gp. You can by someone else's exp at 25 gp/exp on item creation (12.5 for their raw materials and 12.5 for experience) Some may consider being more than 1 level behind, i am not going to address that, you have the tools to figgure it out. If you know how to format tables easily let me know, that's a pain. If my math is off(it may be in the gp tables or hard to read), but the concept is sound, that's fine with me. If someone who is a better caretacker of a thread than i want's to take over that's fine with me. Snow, I am taken so don't even ask. If there are any other brilliant women out there, same goes to you too. lol. APPOLOGIES My gramar, punctuation, spelling and even my math may be off. Let me know and I will fix it at some point. I may be breaking board rules by being too explicit with my numbers - i'll fix that immediately. I am tired hope most of this makes sense. It's my first post to the CO boards, please be gentle.
#2 trackstar Sep 01, 2006 2:37:37	So many words... and numbers... ack. goodjob!
#3 nylkran Sep 01, 2006 3:48:41	I don't know if this is relevant for you but... On free experience you may want to see the feat Item Familiar from UA. If I remember correctly you can imbue xp you get into your Item Familiar, and get 10% extra XP back, (the downside is that if the weapons is lost or broken you loose all XP imbued into the weapon, plus 200xp times level). That is also another way of "free" XP.
#4 lilt Sep 01, 2006 3:53:33	I'd contemplated things similar to this previously, specifically in the case of a character who'd used the LA buyoff rules then crafted, but never put it into words. In any case, good post. My only criticism is that you might want to try formatting it for readability... Bulleted Lists Large Text Bold Text [INDENT]Indents[/INDENT] and Coloured Text are all available in the forum interface and can be used to make it more readable. Other bits of BB code useful for readability include Spoiler Blocks Done by replacing the round () brackets with square [] ones in the following: (sblock=Hidden bit)This text is hidden(/sblock) That gives this: Hidden bit This text is hidden
#5 davidwl Sep 01, 2006 4:10:10	Yes, good post. The necropoliton is one possible application.
#6 loneknife Sep 01, 2006 9:05:20	Thanks Lilt! I will format for readability sometime this weekend. It will take a little tweaking as this is my first post.
#7 radicaltaoist Sep 01, 2006 9:12:54	Ah, the math behind the One Level Gravy Train (as the nickname for your river has been on the CO Boards).
#8 rydi123 Sep 20, 2006 10:44:31	might also be able to use some of the classes that force you to pay xp for special effects (like kensai or psi weapn master).
#9 carnivore Sep 20, 2006 15:41:53	for the link :D
#10 BloodSpill Oct 07, 2006 11:51:24	*removed - broken link*
#11 llochlyn Oct 07, 2006 15:50:08	I wonder if getting the "Item Familiar" Zomgsobrokkanz!!1!one feat from UA would bring a significant boost to this principle ? +10% seems to be nothing to sneeze at I guess
#12 morlachmir Nov 21, 2006 12:08:48	You don't automatically level up when you gain enough xp. You can 'hold' your xp, and just rack up a number as high as you want. It was said in an interview by one of the main guys, Skip Williams I believe. Don't hold me to that name though.
#13 solbergb Nov 21, 2006 17:19:04	Level advancement works the way the DM says it does. You could level up right after an encounter was won (like an MMORPG) You could level up after your first good night's sleep (like one DM I had ran it, with dream sequences mixed in for roleplay flavor reflecting the power changes) You could level up after an adventure arc ends (as how Living Greyhawk does it...all xp is earned between adventures and if you level you MUST advance your char before you play it again) You could require training before you can level up (as 1st edition worked and as the optional sidebar suggests) Only in the last case could you easily "save" xp deliberately. I think though that this is all a false economy. It is impossible to have a character that contributes more at lower level than at higher level. A good optomizer will do more with a L11 char than the same char at level 10. Using the "extra" XP to gain a permanent advantage requires cash and downtime (items) or permanency spells or things like Wish. I'd rather the players at my table didn't bother with these games and just played a char of the appropriate level.
#14 solbergb Nov 21, 2006 17:20:17	Level advancement works the way the DM says it does. You could level up right after an encounter was won (like an MMORPG) You could level up after your first good night's sleep (like one DM I had ran it, with dream sequences mixed in for roleplay flavor reflecting the power changes) You could level up after an adventure arc ends (as how Living Greyhawk does it...all xp is earned between adventures and if you level you MUST advance your char before you play it again) You could require training before you can level up (as 1st edition worked and as the optional sidebar suggests) Only in the last case could you easily "save" xp deliberately. I think though that this is all a false economy. It is impossible to have a character that contributes more at lower level than at higher level. A good optomizer will do more with a L11 char than the same char at level 10. Using the "extra" XP to gain a permanent advantage requires cash and downtime (items) or permanency spells or things like Wish. The crafter approach also burns feats. I'd rather the players at my table didn't bother with these games and just played a char of the appropriate level and crafted only when it wouldn't leave them "behind" for more than one day of adventuring.
#15 neratos Nov 21, 2006 17:41:52	Would remaining more than 1 level behind be more worth while? Or does it start scaling poorly? But this is a facinating idea. I am currently playing an artificer in a friends game, and was always hesintent to fall behind, but now i am thinking otherwise hehe.
#16 solbergb Nov 21, 2006 18:35:27	Would remaining more than 1 level behind be more worth while? Or does it start scaling poorly? . Do you want to be a cohort? Cause that's what you are if you are 2+levels behind. If you're going to do this at all, don't fall more than one level behind because you'll start to really be a burden to the party, while earning more xp....not a good way to be popular.
#17 neratos Nov 21, 2006 18:54:16	Doubling the wealth of the my entire party through crafts as an artificer, i would think would make it worth the while. But you have a very valid point.
#18 davidwl Nov 21, 2006 21:35:14	I think though that this is all a false economy. It is impossible to have a character that contributes more at lower level than at higher level. A good optomizer will do more with a L11 char than the same char at level 10 I disagree. L11 Character > L10 Character True L11 Character > L10 Character + a lot of extra money or equipment Not necessarily True. Best, David EDIT: I did have the inequality wrong. Oops -- thanks Neratos.
#19 neratos Nov 21, 2006 21:40:47	i think you have your "<" backwards hehe. Also i think it depends on what class you are playing. A wizard losing a level can be significant. But an artificer doesn't gain much in a level.
#20 Endarire Nov 22, 2006 20:17:48	Crafting becomes a lot more worthwhile once you're at or within one level of the expected campaign/scenario max. Before then, it's an option of variable worth.
#21 awaken_D_M_golem Apr 27, 2007 14:46:22	Math makes my personality parasite's head hurt.
#22 boondoggle Apr 27, 2007 16:06:05	We sure as hell appreciate the artificer who happens to be one level behind in our campiagn. It probably has something to do with getting items made at less than half the market price. Just this past level, my psion got an orange ioun stone (30k gp market price) and a ring of [psionic] might (20k gp market price) for around 20k gp.
#23 theophrastus Jun 05, 2007 4:34:05	Shameless flattery, perhaps, but I think this is probably one of the cleverest pieces of D&D optimization I've ever seen. I've got some free time over the weekend; I'll see about deriving a formula for relating l to L1, L2 and X, where l is the number of levels behind the average party level that your character remains, L1 is the initial average level of the party, L2 is the final average level of the party (thus, L2-L1 is the number of levels over the course of which you remain behind) and X is the amount of XP you profit (XP received by the average party - XP received by you). Seriously, this is basic math at its best, being used to gain an undeniable advantage. Brilliant. Much props to the OP. One love, Theo.
#24 solbergb Jun 05, 2007 13:26:30	I disagree. L11 Character > L10 Character True L11 Character > L10 Character + a lot of extra money or equipment Not necessarily True. . True, in a vacuum, even if you weight the cost of crafting feats. For a self contained character, it can work out, as long as you don't slip more than one level. But that's not what we're talking about here. He's talking about equipping the party with extra equipment. That means, everybody else is L11+extra equipment and he is L10 with extra equipment and feats spent on crafting, which don't help when you are being eaten by the T-Rex. Keep in mind that the crafter is down feats as well as xp. What this will mean is he'll perform about as well as the cohort in actual play. Some people will be ok with that, but it's not an option I'd usually chose for a PC. My own crafter was either at level or kind of 1-2 sessions behind the rest of the party. She crafted about 80% for everybody else (her xp, their wealth) and 20% for herself. She was ok though, as her crafting feats were wizard bonus feats, and wizards are on the high end of the "class power curve" to begin with. I woudln't have liked to play her 1-2 levels behind though, unless everything I crafted went back into making my own character better, ie never sharing.
#25 alienfrombeyond Jun 05, 2007 13:39:15	You could always charge your teammates 5 gold for every XP you use for them, just like NPC casters. Or use a Talisman of Transference and make them burn their own XP, albeit at a reduced cost if you have the proper feats.
#26 solbergb Jun 05, 2007 13:48:37	You can. But it isn't going to make you popular, especially combined with the "I'm only 10th level with noncombat feats while all of you are 11th level and giving me extra xp" thing.
#27 r.213 Jun 05, 2007 14:10:18	True, in a vacuum, even if you weight the cost of crafting feats. For a self contained character, it can work out, as long as you don't slip more than one level. But that's not what we're talking about here. He's talking about equipping the party with extra equipment. and But it isn't going to make you popular, especially combined with the "I'm only 10th level with noncombat feats while all of you are 11th level and giving me extra xp" thing. Lemme get this straight. You're saying the party would not appreciate a character that is voluntarily outfitting them with superior, possibly otherwise-unobtainable items at cost, a clear numerical advantage for everyone in the party in exchange for being slightly less combat viable, and gaining extra xp? The universe you describe sounds very bizarre indeed.
#28 solbergb Jun 05, 2007 14:34:43	People get kind of weird when they see "Dead weight" at the table. Consider all the "bards are useless" threads which conveniently ignore the massive power boost that haste+inspire courage +3/+3 gives to a mid level party. Imagine if the bard now charged PHB rates every time he cast a spell (and treated his bardsonds as equivalent level spells). I'm not saying it can't work out. But saying "my job is to equip the party and that's why I suck in actual play" only works if you don't charge the party and you don't mind sucking in actual play. Frankly it sounds like a better cohort than actual player. Except that using your cohort as a magic item factory for the party is usually frowned upon, at least by the flavor of the leadership feat. You're ok IF you can contribute meaningfully at the table, relative to other players, aside from the toys you generate in your downtime. If you're seen as a dead weight that just provides toys, they'll ask you to stay home and provide toys.... Just be careful. One level behind isn't so bad, as long as you're "iconic effective" for your level in spite of spending feats on crafting stuff. More than one level though, probably won't be much fun.
#29 r.213 Jun 05, 2007 15:17:15	Okay, I can see where you're coming from, but this thread isn't telling beginner players to follow the golden rule of "Always Stay 1 XP level behind, you'll get more xp in the long run;" I suspect most D&D beginners would blanch at the idea of being behind the level curve. Someone coming to these boards for optimization advice will not stop at optimizing their xp... I'd wager that that would be one of the last things most people come to the board to optimize. As such, the character itself will probably be optimized. A character optimized above the curve will do fine when faced with encounters suited for the standard party, even if he's one level behind - and if that character is providing magical goodies to the rest of the party, all the moreso. If the rest of the party is optimized as well, sure, the crafter might not be in the limelight as much (or at all), but that's it. How much weight do you have to pull when the other three party members are competing to see who can wipe out the entire encounter without assistance?
#30 solbergb Jun 05, 2007 16:46:57	fair enough. It's like any other case where you handicap yourself. You need to be able to contribute at a level you'll find fun. The XP gravy train isn't free. It costs you an entire level (not just a casting level) and at least one feat. That's a significant optomization challenge all by itself to contribute properly. It can be done, as long as you don't shoot yourself in the foot somewhere else. It's like the difference between a monk and a barbarian. Both can do light infantry, but it is easier for the monk to make himself irrelevant by bad decisions, because his class gives mobility/save type advantages where the other gives raw damage/hp bonuses. The game is more forgiving of an otherwise lousy character that can dish out some damage. Enough with the devil advocate. The idea is interesting, and if it suits your temperment, it could work well.
#31 solbergb Jun 05, 2007 16:48:36	Okay, I can see where you're coming from, but this thread isn't telling beginner players to follow the golden rule of "Always Stay 1 XP level behind, you'll get more xp in the long run;" as an aside, I have seen that advice seriously given to beginning players on the character classes board, often as an example of the "power of wizards". Although wizards are so hard to screw up, and since they get the feats as bonus feats, it doesn't work as badly for beginning characters as some other appraoches to the idea would.
#32 davidwl Jun 06, 2007 1:30:44	fair enough. It's like any other case where you handicap yourself. You need to be able to contribute at a level you'll find fun. The XP gravy train isn't free. It costs you an entire level (not just a casting level) and at least one feat. A valid point - note, however, that I'd say you should charge the party 1/2 the amount you'd save, and invest the difference in gear you can use to be effective. Also, this is a great trick for Chameleons (who have some caster level as well), who can use their floating feat, so there is no feat cost. Best, David
#33 miscdebris Jun 06, 2007 10:37:24	Excepting that the Chameleon cannot use caster levels to qualify for anything, thus they would need caster levels from another class.
#34 r.213 Jun 06, 2007 11:43:06	Excepting that the Chameleon cannot use caster levels to qualify for anything, thus they would need caster levels from another class. Yes, that's why Chameleon 2 (for the floating feat) is the recommended dip for craftmonkeys.
#35 solbergb Jun 06, 2007 12:53:37	Chamelion is a PRC, and practiced spellcaster gets you to level 5 with just a single level of a class which lets you take the most important crafting feats and craft most items. Although practiced spellcaster costs a feat, it might be useful anyway on a chamelion build. There are ways to refine the concept past my reflexive objections - it's interesting, but tricky to do really well.
#36 archerpwr Jun 06, 2007 13:01:21	warlock 12/ chamelion 2 makes for an awesome crafter (not an artificer, but hey)
#37 r.213 Jun 06, 2007 13:37:51	Chamelion is a PRC, and practiced spellcaster gets you to level 5 with just a single level of a class which lets you take the most important crafting feats and craft most items. Although practiced spellcaster costs a feat, it might be useful anyway on a chamelion build. IIRC, the CL from Practiced Spellcaster doesn't qualify you for feats or options, someone who's at books confirm?
#38 solbergb Jun 06, 2007 14:02:55	actually...it does. If the feat or PRC says "caster level XXX" not "ability to cast XX level spells". depends on the feat or ability. IIRC, the PHB crafting feats all use "caster level" wording. Most, but not all, PRC's use "ability to cast XXX level spells" wording.
#39 r.213 Jun 06, 2007 14:51:46	actually...it does. If the feat or PRC says "caster level XXX" not "ability to cast XX level spells". depends on the feat or ability. IIRC, the PHB crafting feats all use "caster level" wording. Most, but not all, PRC's use "ability to cast XXX level spells" wording. That's not the part I'm referring to - I'm referring to the vague memory that Practiced Spellcaster has the "this increased caster level does not qualify you for feats, prestige classes, or other options" boilerplate. Obviously, since I'm AFB, I could be wrong.
#40 friendlyfrog Jun 06, 2007 17:00:10	That's not the part I'm referring to - I'm referring to the vague memory that Practiced Spellcaster has the "this increased caster level does not qualify you for feats, prestige classes, or other options" boilerplate. Obviously, since I'm AFB, I could be wrong. There is/was a FAQ entry that said that. It was booed at by the public, as it doesn't have any rules backing it up.
#41 SaintX Jun 12, 2007 16:24:11	so lets pretend that we can bank xp. im a fighter who doesnt get anything at 5th level. so i sit at 4th level until i have enough to jump to 6th... wash, rinse, repeat. could arguably do it to skip 3rd, but there is no real advantage because 2nd and 3rd earn the same xp. and i probably wouldnt skip lv 11 either because of the extra attack.
#42 duncs Jun 12, 2007 17:41:55	First, Bravissimo to the OP. A doff my cap to you, for this is blue sky optimisation thinking. I recently played an Artificer - and having read this I would certainly spend exp to stay 1 level behind. As for people arguing over whether the party would like it or not, and how to remain effective, what I did was basically what DavidWL said, which is very effective I found. With my crafting feats, I was making items at a gp cost of 37.5% base market price in gp (as opposed to 50%), and 3% base market price in exp (as opposed to 4%). Thus, something costing 10,000 gp which would cost a usual crafter 5,000gp and 400 exp to create cost me 3,750 gp and 300 exp to create. If a party member wanted something made, I would charge him 75% of the base price of the item. He gets it 25% cheaper than he could from a merchant (none of the merchants could take the feats I did it would seem), and I get 37.5% of the cost of the item as profit for my expended EXP. This way I could have some more resources to spend on things like Wands of Scorching Ray and the like to keep me effective, keep the party above average, and all was good. The principle is that just because you CAN provide a huge discount, doesnt mean you have to. Give a discount and keep some profit for yourself. An Artificer focused on wands could probably be the best use of this view of experience, I would think, as they can achieve great combat ability through burning lots of charges with metamagic wands, effectively converting money and exp into pure damage. And this view provides a fair whack of both :D Again, congratulations.
#43 Endarire May 21, 2008 2:20:38	This thread deserves saving and others' reading.
#44 awaken_D_M_golem Dec 09, 2008 14:44:29	bump - don't want to lose this one. Math.
#45 theantitroll Dec 09, 2008 14:58:44	Heh. I'm doing something similar with my Artificer, except only 50% since having the craftee pay the XP costs instead is fair game. That extra 12.5% turns around and buys stuff that helps everyone like infusion material components, Staff of Heal, a metamagic rod of Lesser Chain (combined with Reach spell to GMW and Magic Vestment everyone easily), Karma bead (to help with the above) and so forth. She's already way ahead in gear anyways so not losing anything with this approach. Fun thing about this is it lets you play around with the properties that were not cost efficient before, but are when you reduce the cost to a tiny fraction of that.
#46 cycada Dec 09, 2008 15:50:09	Might have, might not have already been said but with all that extra xp why not make yourself a Spellstitched Necropolitan _________ artificer. You can start on your way to being behind without have to do a deliberate delay by setting yourself back with Necropolitan, and then further back with the ungodly amount of xp spellstitched costs. And finally, on top of that, items from artificer. Hm...which makes me think....Master artisan (or appropriate ones), do they work on spellstitched? I'd assume not but it's still something to think about.
#47 vglcat Dec 09, 2008 16:34:13	this inspired me to try this trick.... only i couldn't find a guide to playing a walking toy factory please post a link
#48 vglcat Dec 10, 2008 15:34:46	day 63 i wonder if people forgot this thread. my question remains un-answered
#49 cycada Dec 10, 2008 21:26:03	Yeah, I figured this thread would be more popular, considering free xp is something that everyone can get there hands in. :D
#50 umopapisdn Dec 10, 2008 22:50:30	Yes, this is a fantastic thread that deserves to live. Master artisan (or appropriate ones), do they work on spellstitched? I'd say no. As to earlier posts in the thread, I personally would have no problem with voluntarily remaining at a lower level in order to supply the party with more expensive equipment via crafting. I would of course expect fair compensation, giving them a great discount, but charging enough to craft/buy equipment to make up for power lost with the level. Having played glory-hog DPS'ers to pure support Bards, as long as I'm not only pulling my own weight, but being an asset to the party, I'm having fun. As an analogy, a GOD style Wizard might little if any direct damage, but he certainly makes it easier for the mortals to win. But back to the point. Seeing some of the stuff done here on the CO boards, I'd bet there's a whooole lot of use that can be made of some free XP, and this concept should't be automatically ignored because "no one would want to always stay a level below the rest of hte party." Oh yeah, and
#51 amadithegreat Dec 11, 2008 5:25:59	Are there any mathamancers around? Just as a basic scenario, not using fellow players for help with the gold. How much.... Human Artificer 20 with 2 flaws. Feats at level 1: Mercantile Background (Sell stuff at 75% the cost to shops, 1/month buy something for 75% the cost.), Legendary Artisan (XP Cost of crafting reduced by 25%), , Magic Artisan - Legendary Artisan (Anything crafted while using Legendary Artisan feat has all costs: Time/GP/XP, reduced by 25%.), Apprentice: Craftsman (10% off from raw material costs) Feats at level 3: Item Familiar (Invest lifeforce, +10% xp.) Feats at level 4: Extraordinary Artisan (GP Cost of crafting reduced by 25%) Feats at level 6: Magic Artisan - Extraordinary Artisan (Anything crafted while using Extraordinary Artisan feat has all costs: Time/GP/XP, reduced by 25%.) Feats at level 8: Exceptional Artisan (Reduce time used for crafting by 25%) Feats at level 9: Magic Artisan - Exceptional Artisan (Anything crafted while using Exceptional Artisan feat has all costs: Time/GP/XP, reduced by 25%.) Feats at level 12: Feats at level 15: Feats at level 16: Feats at level 18: Feats at level 20: That gained sanctum at 10th level, with wizard circle, which allows you to reduce XP/GP costs by 10%, and who joined (At the same level.) a Waterdeep guild that allowed 10% discount on raw materials. worth of efficient items for himself have at level twenty, assuming no DM fiat/interaction with other players, and taking advantage of experience is a river, and assuming that he'd do all his purchases in large amounts to take advantage of mercantile background, have. I suppose something surprisingly close to infinite because he could 'buy' XP with artificer class feature. (18.75gp = 1.1exp => 17.045454.. gp = 1exp, using mercantile background to buy the item cheaper, and item familiar to get more xp.) and he could 'sell' XP with rate of (0.01265625xp = 0.591796875.). Now, this times 79.01234568 would result in: (1 experience = 46.75925926 gold.). So yeah, it's infinite. No need for that mathamancer, after all. And that math was done forgetting: The wizard circle, guild membership bonus and Apprentice: Craftsman. :D Correct would be: 0.011390625 experience = 0.6346699219 gold => 1 experience = 55.7186214 gold. Now: Trade ~17.05 gold for 1 exp, then trade that 1 exp for ~55.7 gold. Experience isn't a river, experience is a well. Bottomless well.
#52 keyes2k4 Dec 11, 2008 14:45:09	So you're saying that there is a way to trade gold for experience, and then turn around and turn in experience for gold, but it costs less for gold to experience than it costs for experience to gold, meaning you have A: infinite experience (I'm level eleventy-billion) or B: infinite gold (I'm billbo gates). You're Pun-pun, without the kobold. If your DM knew saw you do this, he'd nix you.
#53 Endarire Dec 11, 2008 15:31:00	Can you apply Magic Artisan to Legendary/Extraordinary/Exceptional Artisan?
#54 vglcat Dec 11, 2008 21:34:52	why won't you answer!??! am i incapible of talking! why cruel world!???!? this inspired me to try this trick.... only i couldn't find a guide to playing a walking toy factory please post a link yeah i quoted myself what of it?
#55 amadithegreat Dec 12, 2008 11:07:53	Can you apply Magic Artisan to Legendary/Extraordinary/Exceptional Artisan? RAW you should be able to do, it's blatantly against RAI tho. :P @Keyes: Well, the XP you get this way can only be used for crafting, e.g the artificer class ability, but infinite gold is true. And with infinite gold, I don't think it'd take long for anyone to achieve infinite everything.
#56 Pauper Dec 12, 2008 16:12:42	After reviewing this thread, I'll point out that the original idea is interesting, but probably needs a more detailed version of Amadi's treatment before it's truly 'broken' in true CO style -- in effect, the fundamental insight involved in the OP's idea, as I understand it, works like this: - By being 1 level behind the rest of your party, if you're begin given XP based on character level, you gain bonus XP in each encounter compared to your party. In addition, you effectively have bonus XP based on the fact that it takes you less XP to reach the next level than it takes the other members of your party (if you're at the level where it takes 2000 XP to level, the other members of your party need 3000 XP, for instance). - You can, if you're smart about it, convert this 'bonus' XP into party power and effectiveness. That's an interesting idea, and deserves additional work. I also want to point out something with respect to the lvl 11 > lvl 10 argument made above, and will do so by referring to a joke: Two men are camping in the wilderness when an agitated bear enters the camp and begins scrounging through the campsite for food. One man heads into his tent and emerges with a pair of running shoes, which he carefully begins to lace up. "What are you doing?" the second man asks. "You can't outrun a hungry bear!" "I don't need to outrun the bear," replies the first man. "I just need to outrun you." Yes, it's true that a level 10 character will never be as good as the same character advanced to level 11 and run by the same player. But in this scenario, you're not really playing against your own lvl 11 character; you're deciding if your level 10 optimized character can be effective when compared to the level 11 characters in the remainder of your party. If your entire group is composed of hard-core optimizers, then this advice is likely going to be less useful to you, but if you're the alpha-optimizer (or the only one) in your group, dialing yourself back a level will, on the surface, actually seem like an advantage to your party, since the party as a whole will end up with much better balance with respect to their typical encounters, and the advantages you grant to the party as a result will be, for the most part, more subtle than your typical uber-optimized character of equivalent level's advantages are. One final caveat: any crafting character requires some campaign downtime in order to perform his duty. If your party is continually racing from one campaign arc to the next, never taking a month or two off from time to time to rest up and do crafting, you're going to be very frustrated with the craft-specific version of this optimizing trick. (There are things other than crafting that you can do with the bonus XP you're gaining, such as using XP for permanency spells or the like, but crafting probably gives you as much 'bang for the buck' as any other XP-expending activity.) One last comment: the magical item that allows you to 'restore' XP comes from one of the Complete books (Complete Mage or possibly Complete Arcane), and is called the thought bottle. Most CO regulars consider it tastelessly broken, and every DM I've ever played under, once they've realized what can be done with it**, has immediately banned it from his campaign. Don't count on having access to that little trinket is all I'm saying. ** - One example, to satisfy the curiosity of those who are interested: As a high-level wizard, drop your current XP total into the bottle. Cast a contingency on yourself that will deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage in a small area centered on yourself when you die. Use create greater undead to create a wight, then allow it to apply enough negative levels to you to kill you. This will trigger the contingency and bring you back to life as a wight spawn. Since you are now an undead spawn whose progenitor has been destroyed, you can take the Emancipated Spawn prestige class. You then go back to your thought bottle and take a hit from it, restoring your previous XP total. This should allow you to shoot straight to the top level of the Emancipated Spawn PrC, which restores all class abilities you possessed prior to being turned into a spawn, with XP left over to continue advancing in whatever other class you choose. Lather, rinse, and repeat until you have every class in the game, and you don't even need to spend more XP to reset the bottle; as written, it will continue to hold the original XP total placed in it until you deliberately reset it to a new total. This is currently my preferred theoretical method for reaching level 9 arcane and divine spell use in the same sub-level-20 build. -- Pauper
#57 amadithegreat Dec 12, 2008 18:05:01	You can also get a companion spirit (DMGII.) for your group with xp, although it costs XP for everyone. About thought bottle (Carc pg 150): That's not even optimal, look at the spell "Body outside body" (Carc pg 100) for lulz. If you don't get it, read Talisman of Transference. Yep, 200gp + level 7 spell and you get enough XP to craft 10 items, as long as you had the raw materials handy.
#58 dr_rocktopus Jul 30, 2009 16:18:36	vroom.
#59 auxitius Jul 30, 2009 16:53:50	If you play in Faerün you could become a member of the Lady's College and be able to craft with no experience penalties but at 60% market price instead of 50% :P
#60 dr_rocktopus Jul 30, 2009 18:15:43	Whoa-whoa-whoa, where's that? What? Where is that?
#61 pyro_azer Jul 31, 2009 0:02:04	Whoa-whoa-whoa, where's that? What? Where is that? Agreed. WHERE?
#62 dr_rocktopus Jul 31, 2009 3:01:13	PG 62, Silver Marches. Doesn't seem to do what Aux thinks it does. More careful examination please?
#63 warweaver Jul 31, 2009 3:33:03	I skipped page 2, but I saw Doc Rock and some other folk I remember posting in here and got curious. With a question. Crafting is great and the 1-under idea can be fun - but the main limitation on applying it to actual play, for me, was never how effective I could remain in a fight or how behind I was from the party. It is that in an actual campaign, one does not often have days, weeks, or months of time lying around in which to craft. Things often happen dramatically, with little warning, and lots of travel (as is an adventurer's wont). How does CO combat this problem? I had a "temporal chamber" in an elven mythal for one of my campaigns, which powerful wizards used to make things in 1/5th the time...but it was total homebrew. The Magical Artisan feat from FR helps. Anything else?
#64 auxitius Jul 31, 2009 4:24:11	PG 62, Silver Marches. Doesn't seem to do what Aux thinks it does. More careful examination please? Yeah, I will have to dig up the book when I get home but my DM played it like that when one in our group became an honorable member of the Lady's College. Of course he may have regretted that when we all suddenly got kickarse items.
#65 siranui Jul 31, 2009 5:25:44	"How does CO combat this problem?" My knee-jerk response would be 'do it on the astral plane', as I understand that one can do so without 'real' time passing, once one can get there. Or just have a handy pocket dimension backed onto it! I gotta say: I'm not a fan of crafting for reasons that have already been delved into elsewhere: It's feats, it's XP, it's time. Feats are a sparse resource, and while an item can help you a few times a day, the right feat can help you nearly every turn. The XP you've talked a good talk for, so I won't discuss that, but time is also a rare commodity in campaigns. Heck: I'm currently playing two campaigns, and in BOTH I have a whole stack of spells not copied into books and a bunch of other stuff 'not done' due to not having enough time. I'd rather have the extra level AND a feat or more that increase my overall worth. Craft feats essentially detract from your 'real' power and are essentially replicated by having a big pile of gold. If I wanted to 'burn' XP, I'd probably rather do it via spell use. In fact, I think that I'd rather get level drained a couple of times rather than spend on item creation feats
#66 dr_rocktopus Jul 31, 2009 5:47:42	Psychic reformation suggests that you need only be a crafter when the mood strikes.
#67 auxitius Jul 31, 2009 8:50:10	Lady's College (from Silver Marches). College benefits First, a student or fellow attempting to learn a new spell gains a +2 bonus on her Spellcraft checks to do so, provided she makes the attempt on the college grounds. Second, once per quarter a student or fellow may add a spell of her choice to her spellbook for free, just like new spells gained at each level. She must spend the total of at least 4 hours per day for at least thirty days during the quarter attending classes and studying to gain this benefit. Third, a student or fellow may copy spells from the college's spellbooks at any time, provided she pays a special fee equal to half the market price of a scroll of that spell. For example, a mage who wishes to copy haste from the college library may do so for a cost of 188 gp. Finally, a student or fellow may use the college's laboratories and libraries for creating magic items even if she does not have the appropriate item creation feat. The character must pay a special fee equal to 10% of the market price of the item she creates. The wizard must meet all other requirements of the item to be created. For example, a wizard who wanted to create a wand of lightning bolt despite the fact she does not know the Craft Wand feat could do so by using the college's resources - at a cost of 1,125 gp, 10% of the wand's normal market price.
#68 siranui Jul 31, 2009 8:55:07	"even if she does not have the appropriate item creation feat." !!!BINGBINGBING!!! Wow. Just: Wow.
#69 Endarire Jul 31, 2009 19:58:40	RE: Lady's College So -that's- where all the Artificers in Faerun come from.
#70 aelryinth Aug 01, 2009 13:25:20	'Special fee' implies extra cost, so it's costing the Lady's College person normal costs (50%+XP), +10%, to make the item, albeit they don't need the feat. How does CO get around it? Using a homonculous and a Portable Hole. Make the skill check to make the item, invest the xp, and have the homonculous finish the work while you go adventure. If you have the "Lab in a Pit", you can even tote it around with you and claim your item when it is done. This is a balance issue stopping characters from making powerful items willy nilly. In 4E, tehy do the video gamer approach and let you make items fast...but items have levels, and you can only make items of equal or lower level then yourself. After all, a level 5 spellcaster can make a +10 weapon (+1 enhance, +9 other) if they can invest 8k xp. BTW, Astral Space stops time on the plane, not in real life. I.e. you stop aging, don't need to sleep, or eat, or whatever. TIme is still passing, it just has no effect on you. ==Aelryinth
#71 Endarire Aug 02, 2009 21:50:05	From what pages is that description of the Lady's College?
#72 dr_rocktopus Aug 02, 2009 22:13:57	62, I believe.
#73 awaken_D_M_golem Oct 09, 2010 14:44:38	bump - for the reference.
#74 neilthrun Nov 12, 2010 13:24:10	I've been scanning the sections in the DMG and PHB about level up, xp and item crafting. Where are the explicit rules saying you can opt to not level up? It came up in a session last night, the paladin didnt realize she was level 8, and DM awarded xp to her based on the idea she is level 8. When the issue was discovered the DM ruled that it was her fault for not keeping an eye on the XP charts on our website. If it is the case that you can opt to stay a level lower, she'd get more xp.
#75 awaken_D_M_golem Nov 12, 2010 14:23:16	Technically, you "must" have Training to legitimately reach the next level. If you have the exp, but you don't have the training, you aren't that level yet. Weird thing is, the Training is an optional rule ... that's refered elsewhere as necessary. I've lost that specific reference over time, and don't wanna look (grins). I figure you're talking about doing crafting instead of leveling up?
#76 awaken_D_M_golem Nov 12, 2010 14:24:52	Lady's College (from Silver Marches). College benefits First, a student or fellow attempting to learn a new spell gains a +2 bonus on her Spellcraft checks to do so, provided she makes the attempt on the college grounds. Second, once per quarter a student or fellow may add a spell of her choice to her spellbook for free, just like new spells gained at each level. She must spend the total of at least 4 hours per day for at least thirty days during the quarter attending classes and studying to gain this benefit. Third, a student or fellow may copy spells from the college's spellbooks at any time, provided she pays a special fee equal to half the market price of a scroll of that spell. For example, a mage who wishes to copy haste from the college library may do so for a cost of 188 gp. Finally, a student or fellow may use the college's laboratories and libraries for creating magic items even if she does not have the appropriate item creation feat. The character must pay a special fee equal to 10% of the market price of the item she creates. The wizard must meet all other requirements of the item to be created. For example, a wizard who wanted to create a wand of lightning bolt despite the fact she does not know the Craft Wand feat could do so by using the college's resources - at a cost of 1,125 gp, 10% of the wand's normal market price.
#77 Endarire Jul 24, 2011 19:07:11	Save!
#78 Endarire Mar 01, 2014 20:32:19	Saved by the grace of Christ Jesus!
#79 MrCustomer Mar 08, 2014 17:35:57	What i see as an issue where this doesn't work is that it assumes the party faces the same challenges that it would normallly face if the PC was the same level as everyone else. In most games the DM customizes the encounters to match the party. the one PC being a lower level can equal lower CR encounters and thus less XP earned as a whole (and subsiquently less loot from said encounters). This would be particularily the case if the person played a powerful roll in the group. Such as a Cleric who is the only party healer, or a wizard who is the only party caster.    Additionally, wealth gains by making magic items for oneself and the group for much cheaper with these XP rewards are offset by any DM paying fleeting attention to the wealth by level tables, he can easily ajust the treasure the party finds to account for their wealth without the group being any the wiser.   the gains it seems are likely to be neutralized, whereas the risks, ie being weaker and less valuable to the party, more vulnerable to being killed in a mixed level party, or not being able to adequately contribute, doesn't make the 'gains' worth it, esspecially if neutrlized by the DM
#80 Andarious-Rosethorn Mar 08, 2014 18:18:37	Reducing XP and loot for the whole party simply means slower advancement, which in my experience doesn't really hurt a game in my experience. The risk of being killed assumes enemies are getting to find and attack you, which as a full caster (even a level lower than the rest of the party) shouldn't be a thing by about level 5.
#81 MrCustomer Mar 08, 2014 19:51:59	Perhaps slow advancement is better, however unbalanced afvancement is not. With a mixed level partyadjusting the CR down means boring encounters, keeping it the same exposes the party to potential risk. This is particularly an issue where the plot is advancement based.