Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 9:21:49	Okay, so one of my DMs has a homebrew world which is houseruled to the extent of becoming D&D 3.75. I was wondering what good things to do with a sorceror would be, given that in this world, they can be ultimate specialists. The relevant rules: Show Restrictions: Sorcerors may not use scrolls, wands, some rods, some staffs or spellbooks. Sorcerors may not create scrolls, wands, rods, staffs or certain rings. Spellcraft is not a class skill anymore, and they may not cast spells from all schools of magic. Use Magic Device for certain class combinations can get around some of these restrictions. Sorcerors are in some cases not assumed to be able to read. Talent Points: Sorcerors gain 6 TP at first level, and 2 TP at levels 5, 10, 15 etc. These can be saved, but can only be spent on gaining a level. Costs: Conjuration, Evocation and Transmutation cost 3 TP per rank. Each point buys levels 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9 respectively. Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion cost 2 TP per rank. Each point buys levels 1-4 and 5-9 respectively. Necromancy and Divination cost 1 TP per rank. Ranks: 0: Ability 1: Awareness 2: Knowledge 3: Power 4: Mastery 5: Transcendence The sorceror gains a +1 to ECL for spells of that school per rank. Details: Ability - this grants the sorceror the ability to know and cast spells of that school. All sorcerors must have some magical ability (duh.) and so must spend at least one TP at first level. Awareness - this allows the sorceror to take the Spellcraft skill for that school, as well as giving a +2 competence bonus to all saves against that school and spellcraft rolls relating to that school. Requires Charisma 11 and at least one spell of that school known. Knowledge - this gives the sorceror one more spell known per level in which he can cast spells in each school which has this trait. These must be noted separately, and can be changed each level if necessary. Note: if there are not enough spells of a school, I do not consider sorcerors to need a lab to research new spells. Requirements: Charisma 13 and four spells of that school known (and no using it to fill its own requirements). Power - The spells marked out may be cast an extra time each day, with maximisation, enlargement or empowerment added with no level cost, caster's choice which. Knowledge of the relevant metamagic feat is not required. Requirements: Charisma 15 and a minor magical item of that school personally constructed (ask DM about what is minor). Mastery - Ability to use other spell lists when choosing spells. One spell per level each level gained can be "swapped" in this way :D. Gain knowledge of another spell per level which may be used for the Power ability (this does not result in being able to use the third rank more often). Requirements: Charisma 17 and at least one medium magical item of that school personally constructed (ask DM about what is medium). DM may require additional steps before you may master some schools. Transcendence - Gain spell resistance 20 + caster level verses spells of this school. Metamagic feats cost one less to apply (minimum of +1 per metamagic feat applied). Requirements: Charisma 19, at least one major magical item of that school personally constructed (ask DM about what is major) and DM's Requirement for the school.
#2 hogarth Jan 16, 2009 11:29:19	What books do you have available to you to pick spells from? Assuming the answer is "many", I would pick a couple of the cheaper schools (Necromancy and Illusion, maybe) and pump them as much as possible. I gather you'd need to "waste" a feat on Craft Wondrous Item, though.
#3 jameswilliamogle Jan 16, 2009 11:51:30	Human Sorcerer "Necromaster" TP spent: Trancendence in Necromancy, Ability in Illusion Feats Talent feat, Tomb-Tainted Blood (LM) Spells Known 0 Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Inflict Minor Wounds, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation 1 Chill Touch, Inflice Light Wounds, Silent Image Next step is to pick up Trancendence in Illusion, get into Shadowcraft Mage, and use all the tricks of that class w/ very low-level metamagics applied to them.. This assumes that when you go up in rank that you automatically get the talent ranks below it; if this is not the case then go for the knowledge and mastery abilities w/o the others.
#4 hogarth Jan 16, 2009 12:16:17	Human Sorcerer "Necromaster" TP spent: Trancendence in Necromancy, Ability in Illusion You can't start with Transcendence in anything (since it requires crafting a major magic item); the best you can do at level 1 is Knowledge. I'd take Summon Undead I and Ray of Enfeeblement as level 1 necromancy spells, but YMMV.
#5 aje8 Jan 16, 2009 12:50:24	6 points....... that means only 3 schools are castable if you use one of the big two. (Conjuration and Tranmutation) I'd probably start at lv. 1 with Conjuration and Illusion picking up Transmutation at 2 and the others later on. Abjuration isn't listed. Did you DM really put Evocation at 3 TP??!!
#6 hogarth Jan 16, 2009 13:14:56	Did you DM really put Evocation at 3 TP??!! Like it or not, it's one of the schools that benefits the most from extra caster levels. It has some decent spells, too (Divine Power, Contingency, Forcecage, Miracle).
#7 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 14:07:40	Oh, regarding crafting: Craft feats have been merged into Craft Permanent Magic Item and Craft Non-Permanent Magic Item. Items don't cost XP to make, instead everyone has a crafting reserve of sorts. Going beyond this reserve causes Bad Things to happen. The DM likes crafting, and rather encourages it. It's very worth it, especially as the Magi-Mart doesn't exist.
#8 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 14:09:48	What books do you have available to you to pick spells from? Assuming the answer is "many", I would pick a couple of the cheaper schools (Necromancy and Illusion, maybe) and pump them as much as possible. I gather you'd need to "waste" a feat on Craft Wondrous Item, though. PHB, others by discretion, and sometimes need researching. Research for a sorceror is fairly easy, though, IIRC. It consists of "What do I want to do? Let's spend a while working out how to make my magic do it."
#9 bjorsa Jan 16, 2009 14:44:33	With these rules, sorcerers will be overpowered if you optimise them. Be sure to focus and don't spread your talent over too many schools. I'd go with 6 tp in necromancy as soon as allowed. There are countless of PrC's which give your sorcerer Spellcraft as a class skill, btw.
#10 hogarth Jan 16, 2009 14:51:22	Do you get the Talent Points if you take a prestige class, or is that only a Sorcerer class feature?
#11 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 14:52:17	You get spellcraft automatically usable only on schools you have Awareness in. The lack of spellcraft as a class skill was mainly because he didn't want sorcerors counterspelling spells from schools they know nothing about. As or being overpowered, how so? I think his general attitude to balance is to try and bring everything up to the level of the wizard, rather than nerfing the wizard.
#12 bjorsa Jan 16, 2009 15:12:38	Well, I'd say, with these rules I could easily build an optimized sorcerer that kick a wizard's ass. But I can admit it would involve some of the usual splat book cheese. If you aren't using those sources, then I digress. Looks good for PH builds!
#13 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 15:28:49	What would you do? Splat isn't forbidden, it's by permission, and the DM's fairly open to new stuff as long as it has a reason and isn't too broken. Also, talent points are a Sorceror class feature. You don't get them if you PrC.
#14 bjorsa Jan 16, 2009 15:38:59	The classic cheese build is a White Dragonspawn Loredrake Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold, which amongst other absurd stats, put you FOUR effective caster levels ahead of a standard sorcerer. But you don't have to be that drastic, really. For inspiration, I shamelessly link to my guide on the subject.
#15 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 15:52:21	Yes, but a White Dragonspawn Loredrake Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold is ridiculously cheesy to the point of no sane DM allowing it anyway except in a specifically "no holds barred" campaign. How is that any worse under these rules?
#16 jameswilliamogle Jan 16, 2009 16:59:11	You can't start with Transcendence in anything (since it requires crafting a major magic item); the best you can do at level 1 is Knowledge. I'd take Summon Undead I and Ray of Enfeeblement as level 1 necromancy spells, but YMMV. Well that sucks... Maybe craft nonpermanent magic item (scroll) would be enough to take it up to take it up to Power? Anyways, barring that, the main issue w/ Sorcerers is few spells known. With that in mind, I'd pick: Necromancy (knowledge - 2 TP), Illusion (Awareness - 2 TP), and save the other 2 TP for L5 when you can bump Necromancy to Trancendence :P. Not sure if it would be worthwhile to stick in this for the TP or go to a nice PrC, though... You could boost Illusion up then go into Shadowcraft Mage as a gnome (which ALSO helps deal w/ the versatility issues), or Mage of the Arcane Order (again, same, but less broken), or something flavorful... Try to play a Spellscale, as the daily abilities are worth 5 TP :D. Its an interesting take on the Sorcerer, I think. Kind of cool.
#17 heliomance Jan 16, 2009 17:26:30	Not sure if you can make a major magical item at level 5. Our sorceror made a robe of blending for that requirement at level 8 or 9, and I think that's pretty much the lowest thing that counts as major.
#18 jameswilliamogle Jan 16, 2009 17:56:50	Not sure if you can make a major magical item at level 5. Our sorceror made a robe of blending for that requirement at level 8 or 9, and I think that's pretty much the lowest thing that counts as major. Well the main thing is to get up to Trancendence as soon as you can and get lots of metamagics to abuse that -1 metamagic stuff. Good candidates for Necromancy in particular: Fell Drain Fell Frighten Quicken Maximize (more so than Empower) Widen (for the higher level AoE spells) BTW, that Trancendence ability is probably why Evocation is in the 3 TP / level category: it definitely benefits from metamagic abuse more than the other schools! One thing he may have overlooked is that Illusion w/ the Shadow Evocation line can duplicate almost all the Evocation spells already (9th level exception under most standard conditions). If you can get into the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, I'd say that'd be worth it (check the ScM handbook for the abuse).
#19 DeAnno Jan 17, 2009 4:25:09	Concerning Necromancy, look into the Shivering Touch line of spells in Frostburn. Ability damage with no save is your pal.
#20 heliomance Jan 17, 2009 20:28:30	Why is everyone saying to specialise in Necromancy? Also, if it makes any difference, I believe that sorcerors can benefit from Quicken Spell in this world.
#21 jameswilliamogle Jan 17, 2009 23:24:27	Necromancy gives you a HUGE band for the buck as far as your TP investment given the house rules, and isn't a bad school as far as generalists (non-house ruled) schools go.
#22 hogarth Jan 18, 2009 8:24:11	Why is everyone saying to specialise in Necromancy? Because it's cheap, mostly. And it has some good spells (Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Dead -- the cleric version, Enervation, Magic Jar). I would maybe go for Illusion, though, especially if you say your DM is O.K. with researching new spells. For instance, if you could research a "Lesser Shadow Evocation" and a "Lesser Shadow Conjuration" (as level 2 & 3 spells), that might take the sting out of focusing on one school almost exclusively. As far as crafting a major magic item goes, that should be simple enough. Just get everyone in the party to chip in some money, you craft an item, you sell the item, then give everyone their money back. Does your DM use the minimum caster level listed in the DMG as a requirement?
#23 heliomance Jan 18, 2009 11:01:41	Not sure about whether he uses crafter level or not. I suspect not, possibly. As Isay though, everyone has a crafting reserve based on level, and if they craft too much then Bad Things start to happen. Things like fort saves or collapse, I believe.
#24 hogarth Jan 18, 2009 19:43:18	Not sure about whether he uses crafter level or not. I suspect not, possibly. As Isay though, everyone has a crafting reserve based on level, and if they craft too much then Bad Things start to happen. Things like fort saves or collapse, I believe. Good point. What does the crafting reserve look like for a level 5 character, say? Level 6 is probably the earliest that you could feasibly create a "medium" or "major" magic item, I would think.
#25 heliomance Jan 19, 2009 4:58:16	Unfortunately I don't know the details of that. I think the way it works is that everyone has a certain amount of magic they can take - a certain amount of magical items they can safely wear. Crafting items depletes this threshold, but items you've crafted yourself don't count towards it. It's only happened to us once, though, when we overloaded our paladin with magic items. Afraid I couldn't tell you what the hard limits are.
#26 hogarth Jan 19, 2009 12:18:01	Actually, I realised I misread a few things: I didn't realise that level "0" costs one Talent Point, level "1" costs 2, etc. I also didn't notice that you said the Tainted Blood feat might only give you one Talent Point. Given those facts, you'll be really, really starved for Talent Points if you try to use more than one school of magic (at more than the most basic level). So I guess I would go with a focus on Illusion (since you can use it to emulate Evocation and Conjuration spells as well). If you can get into the Shadowcraft Mage class, you should be able to do reasonably well.
#27 heliomance Jan 19, 2009 12:35:36	Not quite sure what you mean. You have to buy the rankssequentially, but they don't get more expensive as you progress. For Necromancy and Divination, 1 TP gets you Ability, one more gets you Awareness, one more gets Knowledge, and so on. For Illusion, Abjuration and Enchantment, 1 TP gets you Ability in spells from 0-4th level, one more gets you Ability in spells from 5th to 9th level, one more gets you Awareness in spells from 0-4th level, and so on. Same with Evocation, Conjuration and Transmutation, but the first TP buys from 0-3rd level spells, second from 4th-6th level spells, third from 7-9th level spells.
#28 phoenix00 Jan 19, 2009 12:47:12	The classic cheese build is a White Dragonspawn Loredrake Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold, which amongst other absurd stats, put you FOUR effective caster levels ahead of a standard sorcerer. But you don't have to be that drastic, really. For inspiration, I shamelessly link to my guide on the subject. I am tired of people combining dragonwrought+loredrake with dragonspawn. First dragonwrought makes you a dragon making you ellgable via loredrake. Dragonspawn doesn't work with dragons for it isn't an eligable type to add the template too. Second you are mixing settings. Third you are ignorning the most recent splats saying you can be dominated at will unless you do +3 LA
#29 hogarth Jan 19, 2009 12:55:43	Not quite sure what you mean. You have to buy the rankssequentially, but they don't get more expensive as you progress. For Necromancy and Divination, 1 TP gets you Ability, one more gets you Awareness, one more gets Knowledge, and so on. For Illusion, Abjuration and Enchantment, 1 TP gets you Ability in spells from 0-4th level, one more gets you Ability in spells from 5th to 9th level, one more gets you Awareness in spells from 0-4th level, and so on. Same with Evocation, Conjuration and Transmutation, but the first TP buys from 0-3rd level spells, second from 4th-6th level spells, third from 7-9th level spells.
#30 heliomance Jan 19, 2009 13:03:21	No, imagine them like houses in Monopoly :D To get Mastery in level 0-4 spells, you'd have to have Power in level 5-9 spells. Becoming a specialised Conjurer, Transmuter or Evoker is hard. Thinking about it, I'm fairly sure Tainted Blood gets 2 TP, and certain races get to start out with 1 TP in an appropriate school - gnomes get Illusion, and kobolds get Evocation are the only two I know for sure.
#31 heliomance Jan 23, 2009 9:41:12	Okay, I've spoken to my DM and to another player who plays a sorceror, and I have a few clarifications n the rules. Certain races get to start out with automatic Ability in a school. The only two I know offhand are that Gnomes get automatic Ability in Illusion and Kobolds get automatic Ability in Evocation. You can pick up bonus racial feats every 5 levels. Most of these are pretty sweet, and not available any other way. Humans get to pick any normal feat for this, including Tainted blood which gets 2 TP. The craftiing reserve is like this: The gold piece value of all magic items you've crafted and the gold piece value of all magic items you're wearing are added together (if you're wearing a magic item you crafted, it only counts once, I think). If the result is less than your XP total, you're fine. If it's greater than your XP total, you start having to make Fort saves.