I've read a lot about the factotum lately and there isn't a single resource listing the available EX abilities that can be stolen!!!. Not even in the handbook! For shame
Anyways, I went through all the books I had, completes, races and PHB/DMG's and I found the following (off the top of my head). I'll post more later, but I'd really like to know if there's a resource already listing a comprehensive list so I'm not duplicating work.
Drink brew (Drunken master- Comp War). This ability lets you reduce Int/Wis by 2 and increase either Str or Con by 2 for each Drunken master level. When taken by the factotum you can therefore drain Int and Wis by 40 and increase either Str or Con by 40, or a combination of the two adding to a total of 40. Yes- you need an int/wis of 40 of course.
Avenging Strike (Outcast champion- either races of destiny or comp. war). A number of times per day = Cha bonus you can "smite" an opponent that just attacked an ally. You do 1d6 per outcast champion level + Cha bonus. At level 20 a factotum does 20d6 on each melee attack they use their avenging strike on.
Double Aptitude (Chameleon- races of destiny I think). Once you're out of spells or otherwise spent, Bust out some apititude focusi and start casting even more spells, do more damage, or gain some other abilities.
Thanks for the response, lackluster as it was, but muck like your response the third posting was barely worthwhile!
Those three abilities I just mentioned, off the top of my head, outshine that post- we all know about the base classes and most of the classes listed. I am looking for a comprehensive guide to all class (EX) abilities, especially the potentially awesome ones, such as drink brew or avenging strike.
While we all know you can grab 10d6 sneak attack from the rogue, I didn't know that you could get 20d6 per attack from avenging strike. That kind of information I need! For that reason the "third post" is a good place to start, but we need a breakdown, by book and class, of all (EX) abilities, level gained and whether they scale.
Anyone know of/have this kind of information? Or perhaps anything useful?
If you want something done right do it yourself (I don't actually use handbooks that much actually)
It'll take a while to do, but if you make the list yourself other people would surely like you more.
Manuevers. Yup, they're Ex. You can suddenly have the entire manuever list of a Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader of your level. Yehaw.
Spellcasting. Yes, that's Ex too (before anyone objects, read page 180 of the PHB, and then read MMV).
Fighter Bonus Feats: Hey look, in the text it's just one ability! So your 20th level Factotum gets 11 bonus feats!
Now, remember that you can only use these abilities once per day... but still, that's pretty awesome. Up to three 9th level spells per day chosen from the Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, or Warmage lists (you don't have time to memorize spells as a book caster, so it has to be spontaneous)? I'll take it! Or if you prefer, how about one devastating charger with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, and Spirited Charge, with a lance? Works for me. Feel free to combine that with Pounce from the Lion Totem Barbarian. It's 8 Inspiration points to do it, but supercharging the BBEG is always amusing.
JaronK
If your talking about cunning brilliance, the ability has to come from a base class so none of your stolen abilities in the first post are even legal.
That's what I thought too... eh, I suppose the terminology is a little fuzzy (probably due to WotC not liking to use terms like "the stack" on magic cards, or "base class" in their rulebooks), but standard character class certainly doesn't sound like it includes PrCs.
Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.
Spellcasting is kinda hard to get.
For more information copy/paste the exact wording of the text for cunning brilliance. I believe it says you "gain the ability as if you had levels in the class equal to your factotum level. Having 20 levels in wizard implies the foresight to prepare spells ahead of time.
;)
Spellcasting is kinda hard to get.
Meh, it doesn't necessarily say that the 15 minute concentration period must occur directly after 8 hours of rest. They just need 8 hours of rest and need to concentrate, sometime after that, for 15 minutes. Kinda like how Wizards can keep their spell slots open to spend 15 minutes preparing slots, per slot, throughout the day. In fact, I' say that a Factotum could probably gain a prepared caster's spellcasting and assume that he's left all of his spell slots open. Annoying, but still a whole lot better than nothing.
Carry on.
Drink brew (Drunken master- Comp War). Avenging Strike (Outcast champion- either races of destiny or comp. war). Double Aptitude (Chameleon- races of destiny I think).
Doesn't Cunning Brilliance only work on Standard Classes thus ommiting any PrC such as the three you've listed?
If your looking for a "list" for what a Factotum can do it's located here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class
"Standard Class" is specifically the term the Factotum text uses... Unless we turn this discussion into what counts as a Standard Classes, since there is no true definition as far as I know.
A Binder's soul binding would be one of my top choices. Depending on how you interpret "Standard Class" that could mean "The base classes as is" or simply "The Base classes" because that might open the doors to class varients. such as a Wizard's Abjurtant Jaunt.
also spellcasting is not a extraordinary ability...
It is, in fact, an extraordinary ability. As I stated earlier, please look at page 180 of the PHB, then see the Monster Manual V, then come back and state what you think it is.
That said, the 15 minutes concentrating is weird. It says if you don't do it, you don't refresh your spell slots used up before... but does that matter? You didn't use up any before, as you weren't a Sorcerer!
JaronK
Yes, yes I know the factotum is a jack of all trades, great at no one particular thing, but there are no unique abilities that make this class shine, or even stand out!
Wait bonus to damage/attack? Get chameleon. Want extra standard action almost every round? Go warblade. Want to copy others' abilities? Go Illithid Savant, Soul Eater, or Master Transmogrifist. It's not that the class isn't good at any one thing its that:
The factotum isn't good at what it's supposed to be, "versatility", compared to other classes, and it isn't better at the few things it can do: copy abilities, add Int bonuses to checks and gain free standard actions, than other classes.
Someone explain this to me!
JaronK
Factotum isn't a dedicated class rather it IS most classes in one. True it is very similar to the Chalemeon but different enough in it's own right. Facto's are strong in all fields at once rather then just being great in a single field- Sound familar? Druid Vs Barbarian. And even then they are able to do a few abilties no other class can mimic. Not to mention not only does a single stat drives this monster, but a single feat.
Even without Cunning Brilliance, the class is decently strong enough to think about 10ish levels in. If you can't see the worth of this class then I'm not sure what I can tell you.
Now I'm thoroughly confused. If you can't take from a 10 level PrC and turn the (EX) ability into a level 20 scaled ability, then what is the point of the factotum? I don't see any strengths that the factotum displays. The class is pointless (from a level 20 perspective).
So, Cunning Brilliance was seriously the only thing that Factotum had going for you then? It's a 19th level ability. If that's all it has, why weren't you playing anything else beforehand?
It is, in fact, an extraordinary ability. As I stated earlier, please look at page 180 of the PHB, then see the Monster Manual V, then come back and state what you think it is.
Extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical
if extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, then spellcasting, by definition the ability to create magical effects, cannot be an extroardinary ability.
And don't forget to read MMV, which specifically lists what they are.
I should say here that I'm not trying to talk down to you here or anything... I was in your position a while back until I read it all over. I'm trying to lead you through some pretty tangled rules to get to the conclusion.
JaronK
What type of ability is Inspiration, from the Factotum? Can you therefore (as you have argued) to use Cunning Brilliance to copy the Inspiration ability of a Factotum, and therefore get free inspiration points?
So you are claiming that the factotum can have the spell-casting progression as well as the spell selection of a sorcerer for 1 minute per day?
Well, he can only use it once per day, so in the end it becomes just 1 spell actually cast off the Sorcerer list each day. Powerful, yes... but we're talking about a 19th level character casting (at most) 3 level 9 spells per day, each off a different list.
Easier solution is to just assume the powers known and power point progression of a psionic character, gets away from the messy "must memorize spells" issue.
Well, Sorcerers don't memorize their spells. I honestly didn't mention psionics because I'm not sure what kind of ability psionic casting is, and I'm not that familiar with it.
[qutoe]What type of ability is Inspiration, from the Factotum? Can you therefore (as you have argued) to use Cunning Brilliance to copy the Inspiration ability of a Factotum, and therefore get free inspiration points?
A clever idea, and one that's been brought up before, but there's no way to be sure inspiration points are Ex (they could be natural).
Also, technically that would give you an identacal ability of the same name twice, which you can't have (it would overwrite).
JaronK
If you have Cleric and Paladin turn undead, they do stack. This is actually stated. You just add your Cleric level to half your Paladin level and there you go.
You can get Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead (such as a nuetral Cleric with Turn Undead taking a level in Dread Necromancer) but those are different abilities.
However, the same ability with the same name from the same source (which is what you'd have here) does not ever stack.
JaronK
Regaining Power Points
Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit.
If your DM allows you to dodge the rest issue, then psionics do work better.
That said, the 15 minutes concentrating is weird. It says if you don't do it, you don't refresh your spell slots used up before... but does that matter? You didn't use up any before, as you weren't a Sorcerer
Dodgy...
I seem to recall you have got to rest before getting the new spells you get when levelling up. I'm not a 100% sure though but that would be another DM-dependant hurdle.
It is, in fact, an extraordinary ability. As I stated earlier, please look at page 180 of the PHB, then see the Monster Manual V, then come back and state what you think it is.
JaronK
Care to give a reference to where in MMV this is stated? MMV has an entry for monster spells in the glossary, which does not state what they are at all. There is also the spells entry in the "reading the entries" section, which does not state anything.
Is it stated somewhere else?
Well, the "Arcane Talent" ability then finally enables people to legally get spellcasting as an EX-ability, without any questions. Do note, however, that it ISN'T obvious to stretch the definition of Arcane Talent to every spellcasting creature. Arcane Talent is IMHO a different ability from racial spellcasting.
I need to find the basis for the argument but there's a passage somewhere that basically negatively-identifies all other abilities as EX.
i see they can get lvl X casting.. but i dont see where it mentions anything about spell slots.
slots are not tied to CL, we have seen that over and over..
so you take the CL20 ex ability... but i dont see that you get any spell slots to use it with.. you could use the hell out of items.. so, does it say somewhere about slots or are we just assuming they are provided?
additionally is facto19/archmage1 legal? as long as you pick up the feat reqs.. ignoring arcane dilettante... that alone should let you do fact18/arcM2.
maybe something more along the lines of fact19/MT1, useless but plausible.. with dilettante being the arcane side, and CB being the divine side...
I believe he is referring to the new ability that several of the Hobgoblins presented within possess known as Arcane Talent. It is an (Ex) ability which simply says, "Hobgoblin Blabla casts spells as a Xth level Wizard." Since there are no other creatures in that Monster Manual with the ability to cast spells, (only spell-like ability users) I believe the conclusion he comes to, combining Arcane Talent with the information in the standard PHB, is that spellcasting must be an (Ex) ability as well. It is a reasonable conclusion, I believe, but not the only conclusion.
More specifically, that's the only time that spellcasting is given any descriptor at all. In all other books, it's simply undefined, ignoring the PHB 180 reference (which is actually the most important).
Without that, Spells could theoretically be Natural, by the rules on PHB 180 (and thus be granted by Alter Self, since Natural Abilities are all explicitly physical!), since those rules allow for Ex or Natural (but eliminate Su and Sp). But with that, we end up with spells being Ex.
So, it's the combination of the two that tell us for certain. CustServ also ruled that they're Ex, if that's worth while to anyone.
JaronK
As a clarification to anyone going, "wtf," to all of this: Yes, the spells themselves are magical, and certainly NOT (Ex). But the ability, that is the knowledge and skill to manipulate arcane symbols, gestures, and power, is certainly (Ex). Well within the abilities of a fantasy human to master.
Well, see you are making a logical leap. All it really suggests is that spellcasting granted by Arcane Talent is (Ex). Since Wizards and Sorcerers and Wu-Jens and Beguilers, etc do not possess the Arcane Talent ability, and since no other creature ever published has it, and since the ability wasn't given any special clarificatory treatment (in the form of a sidebar or glossary entry) it is impossible to come to a adamant conclusion on the matter. I, personally, would see a Wizard's spellcasting as (Ex), but a Sorcerer's as natural, just going by fluff alone. But we can never know.
Well, I'm making a leap to Ex specifically, but it's a pretty solid leap since it's simply undefined elsewhere and Wizard casting itself is defined there as Ex... so it's not much of a leap. But there's no leap from page 180, which says that casting must be Natural or Ex. That alone means the Factotum has casting already if we play by strict RAW, and "Natural" is actually worse because then Alter Self grants it. Ex is actually the less abusable option, and even though I fully expect people to say "no, polymorph can't give spells" as a house rule, by RAW that does work. And once we hit level 19, now it's actually not broken, just strong.
As a clarification to anyone going, "wtf," to all of this: Yes, the spells themselves are magical, and certainly NOT (Ex). But the ability, that is the knowledge and skill to manipulate arcane symbols, gestures, and power, is certainly (Ex). Well within the abilities of a fantasy human to master.
Quite so, and if this weren't true then you could never cast in an Antimagic Field despite Invoke Magic, because you'd lose the ability to cast in the first place.
JaronK
If you look back at the "I turn into a Solar and have all spells" threads you can see where I think even the RAW purists who say it likely works still say you need to do whatever rest and preparation, etc.
And then there's the sticky wicket of if you can turn into something that casts as a Sorcerer ... what spells do you "know"? The sample ones in the entry? Some idealized list where it has what you want on it? My games would be the first (the samples).