Fate/Stay Night's Rider as a Class - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lococ_Lobo Apr 21, 2013 21:44:58	I've been playing Fate/stay night lately and I'm interested in playing a class similar to Rider's in a 3.5 Game. She seems to be something of a cross between a Rogue and Scout, but I'd like to get other people's advice on what class, or classes i should go for including prestige classes. I've got my stats rolled per my DM's rulings and I'm allowed up to a +2 LA for my class, but I'd like to not exceed a +1 LA. I'm also allowed to use any class from the books, the GITP forums, or the DanDWiki. Str 09 Dex 17 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 15 Current Thoughts for build, please review and help optimize for effectiveness. Also need help determining good feats. Show Race: Tiefling, Lesser Ability Socres after Racial Adjustment Str 09 Dex 19 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 13 Class&Levels: Homebrew Assassin 4/ Scout 3/ Unarmed Swordsage 5/ Shadow Sun Ninja 7 Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Adaptive style, Combat Reflexes, Kung Fu Genius Possible Feats: Power Attack, Level Progression Level 1: Homebrew Assassin Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse Abilities: Sneak Attack +1d6, 3 Exotic/ Martial Weapon proficiencies of my choice : Sai, Spiked Chain, Claw Bracer Feat: Combat Reflexes Level 2: Unarmed Swordsage Bonus Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike Stance: Child of Shadow Maneuvers: Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind Level 3: Scout Feat: Adaptive Style Level 4: Homebrew Assassin Abilities: Evasion, Critical Strike: Take a full round action to deal 2x damage on a sucessful attack. Level 5: Homebrew Assassin Abilities: Shadow Weapon: May use Dex instead of Str for damage with weapons. Sneak Attack +2d6 Level 6: Unarmed Swordsage Feat: Shadow Blade Stance: Step of the Wind Maneuvers: Burning Brand Level 7: Scout Level 8: Scout Level 9: Unarmed Swordsage Feat: ??? Maneuver: Burning Brand Level 10 Homebrew Assassin Abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Across the Rooftops: Move up, down, or across any surface. Level 11: Scout Bonus Feat:??? Level 12: Unarmed Swordsage Maneuver: Shadow Jaunt Feat: Kung Fu Genius Level 13: Unarmed Swordsage Stances: Assassin's Stance Maneuvers: Shadow Garrote Level 14-20: Shadow Sun Ninja Level 15 Feat: ??? Level 18 Feat: Power Attack
#2 draco1119 Apr 21, 2013 21:48:10	I have no idea what a "fate/stay night" is, but I STRONGLY encourage you or to use anything from the D&DWiki. Like, ever. Just judging by the name "Rider" and that you think it might be a rogue or scout, why not try ranger/wild plains outrider?
#3 Lococ_Lobo Apr 21, 2013 22:12:18	Fate/Stay Night is a visual Novel by Type-Moon. It focuses around a series of servants fighting to obtain the Holy Grail for their masters. Rider is one of the Servant's and in the game she focuses on utilizing her high agility to make hit and run attacks with her "daggers" and spells. I was looking at a Ranger initally, but that class seems to be more along the lines of Archer's class.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 21, 2013 22:33:46	Do not think that a character is a single class. Rider could be approximated quite well as a swift hunter (ranger/scout) with some of the Cityscape or Dungeonscape substitutions. Also. Draco is right about DanDwiki.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 21, 2013 22:41:26	Mobile, can't edit. Another possibility is swiftblade: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20... More magical but pick the right buffs and base class and away you go. The Zero Buff Time Gish in my sig is one example. In addition to outstanding speed they get all the Spring Attack feats on the cheap.
#6 Lococ_Lobo Apr 21, 2013 22:45:19	Yeah i was just listing it since those were the sources i was given to pull data from. I'm strongly considering multi-classing, and I'm thinking either Drow or Tiefling for my race. I think I've found one half of my multiclass on GITP with the Assassin base class found here www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t.... Doesn't have the ride skill, but the foot mobility is very high. I'm not sure if i want to go ahead and give the char any kind of casting just hone it in on guerilla style melee damage.
#7 Lococ_Lobo Apr 22, 2013 22:12:26	Looking at the swift blade, it looks like it ties in very neatly with what I'm trying to do with this charachter. I've decided on my class build for level 20 after talking with my DM about the homebrew class i want to use. He's agreed to letting me use it on the condition that i drop the AC bonus. The homebrew class based on Assassin's Creed can be found here www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t.... The class build I'm looking at is Assassin 5/ Scout 3/ Sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade 6. Thoughts for optimization? I'm mostly looking to utilize hit an run attacks with support spells, and one or two powerful offensive spells i can cast using the Ocular Spell (Metamagic) Feat.
#8 EruditeApe Apr 22, 2013 23:46:58	No, don't go with Swift Hunter, or Swiftblade(Which is an overrated and honestly poor class) what you need is an Ubermount. Rider is a crappy Servant with a beyond kick-ass NP, and Ubermount is a decent character with a pony that can kick down the Tarrasque. Halfling Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Mount or Companion progression 4 is the standard build.
#9 Lococ_Lobo Apr 23, 2013 0:21:59	@EruditeApe What do you mean by NP, and who is ubermount?
#10 draco1119 Apr 23, 2013 6:09:21	I don't know what NP is, but what he means is Supermount! (Do a search for that, with exclamation mark)
#11 EruditeApe Apr 23, 2013 18:38:56	@EruditeApe What do you mean by NP, Noble Phantasm. In this case, your mount. and who is ubermount? Ubermount is a form of build(Supermount! is the specific build), that relies on Devoted Tracker and Halfling Outrider to get a phenomenally powerful companion/mount.
#12 Lococ_Lobo Apr 23, 2013 19:27:08	I looked over the class build suggested, and while it looks like a solid build, it's too dependent on a mount to be used in my group's campaign. I'm looking to achieve my goals without being MAD, especially on attributes I don't have any strength in. From what I've seen so far Rider is a capable fighter on her own and at least for short periods can hold her own, even against a strong fighter like Saber by utilizing her speed and mobility. This is what I'm trying to focus on so I can be of good use to my campaign group.
#13 draco1119 Apr 23, 2013 20:08:32	How about Tess the Molestress or Kris the Sadomasochist? Which reminds me, I still need to update the feat list to drop Stand Still & add Double Hit.
#14 Lococ_Lobo Apr 23, 2013 20:21:13	Can I get a link to Kris please?
#15 draco1119 Apr 23, 2013 21:00:43	Um... Can't do it from my phone. A search of the Character Optimization forum for "Kris the Sadomasochist" should get it for you, though.
#16 EruditeApe Apr 23, 2013 21:23:52	I looked over the class build suggested, and while it looks like a solid build, it's too dependent on a mount to be used in my group's campaign. I'd like to know why? That's quite a bit like saying a wizard is too dependent on spellcasting. From what I've seen so far Rider is a capable fighter on her own and at least for short periods can hold her own, even against a strong fighter like Saber by utilizing her speed and mobility. This is what I'm trying to focus on so I can be of good use to my campaign group. Except that's very wrong. She was getting beaten by Shiro's Saber. Shiro, if you'll remember, has nowhere near the magic needed to sustain a Servant, and thus Saber ends up sucking. If you're talking about Fate/Zero, then that's because of who this Rider was, one of the strongest Servants ever, and would be ludicrously strong whatever class he was in, much like Gilgamesh. Shiro's Saber, despite being who she was, was not overwhelming Lancer. Trying to scale off of Saber of F/SN is like trying to scale off of Usain Bolt with a broken leg. F/SN's Rider without her NP is probably weaker than Tohsaka, bro. Seriously. And that's with who her Master is, that should really tell you something.
#17 Lococ_Lobo Apr 23, 2013 21:59:03	@EruditeApe I'm not getting in a fight about another game and it's chars on this forum. In response to your question, the class build is largely dependent on it's mount for abilities, and staying mounted is asking to get killed with the dungeons my GM builds. Out would be like asking a wizard to fight effectively in an anti-magic zone.
#18 EruditeApe Apr 23, 2013 22:07:36	@EruditeApe I'm not getting in a fight about another game and it's chars on this forum. What's there to fight about? While Medusa's NPs are great, she's weak. In response to your question, the class build is largely dependent on it's mount for abilities, and staying mounted is asking to get killed with the dungeons my GM builds. Out would be like asking a wizard to fight effectively in an anti-magic zone. Uh, bro? You do realize we're talking about you bein gon a medium sized animal with a massive jump score? And that your creature is capable of independant action? Also, AMFs are weak and so easily bypassed, I'd be disappointed in a wizard who couldn't function in one.
#19 Lococ_Lobo Apr 23, 2013 23:31:07	For the final time, whether you belive, and/or like it, the fact that the build will not work in my group remains true. Please get back on topic, or remove yourself from the discussion. Thank you. On that note, I'm going to look at chosing a different prestige class which might make taking sorcerer levels irreleveant. I'd like to have the spellcasting, but it isn't necessary. I'm going to stick with 4 levels of the Assassin class from GITP, unless someone can provide me with a class/ ability that gives a similar effect to Across the Roofs, and 3 levels of scout for skirmish and a movement increase. For Race I've decided on a Yuan-Ti Pureblood. Suggestions for a prestige class and the best way to get into it a re appreciated. I'm going to be playing CG for alignment.
#20 Lococ_Lobo Apr 24, 2013 22:36:24	Changed race to Tiefling, and Updated with a build to level 20. Suggestions for optimization are appreciated.
#21 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 24, 2013 23:04:20	Changed race to Tiefling, and Updated with a build to level 20. Suggestions for optimization are appreciated. I can't check your homebrew as Giant is offline at the moment, and I don't know anything about your reference, but here we go anyway. 1) Use Lesser Tiefling (PGtF, I believe). They're identical to the normal tiefling except type Humanoid and LA+0. Outsider type is better for shapechanging; in the hands of a warrior it only matters for immunity to humanoid-only targeting effects, and most of those are minor, especially when compared to what the lower level adjustment buys you (especially because you've indicated you're starting at level 1, and thus LA+1 is unusable). 2) Skip Improved TWF - buy Gloves of the Balanced Hands (MIC). There are extremely few situations where this wouldn't be your best choice assuming you choose to dual-wield. That said, I have no idea why you're dual-wielding in the first place; you don't have a huge source of bonus damage (Assassin's Stance + whatever the assassin gives you (assuming it's Rogue-esque, that's +5d6); observe that because you lack any way of triggering Skirmish as a swift action, you will never be able to attack with both weapons while Skirmishing!) and you don't have a lot of maneuver synergy with TWF (i.e. no Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, or similar; only Burning Brand helps here). You'd be better off in almost every way by dropping TWF and replacing it with Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), which not only resembles Rider's weapon but will help out with other feedback given below. 3) If everything's open to you, use the unarmed swordsage (page 20, under Adaptation). This trades the swordsage's armor proficiency for the monk's Unarmed Strike ability, which includes the IUS feat as a bonus feat. This makes Shadow Sun Ninja easier to enter (and as a side effect you get a bit more oomph from the Monk Abilities feature, although this is minor) and frees up a feat slot in your build. (You might notice that now all of the feats you've chosen are open slots, except for the EWP.) 4) I can't really make sense of your maneuver progression because you decide to list everything at every level instead of just the changes. However, you will find better results if you make sure you have an even number of non-swordsage levels before every swordsage level. 5) Why are your Intelligence and Charisma so high? Literally nothing you have synergizes with them. You have very good rolls in general (and I do so hate the roll-for-stats method, in comparison to point-buy), but as a swordsage you might consider switching over to pure Dexterity as best you can, particularly because most of your stances are Shadow Hand and you've said you wanted to use a Rider-style chain weapon. In this case, using a Spiked Chain + Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade lets you get Dexterity to attack and damage. You can also shuffle some points into Strength - you will probably want Power Attack, which is not only the primary source of damage in melee, but also very compatible with the spiked chain (as it's two-handed). Summary: Use Lesser Tiefling. Drop all the feats you've chosen. Use the Unarmed Swordsage. Shuffle points fro Int and Cha into Dex (mostly) and enough Str to hit 13. Take EWP (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and Shadow Blade in whatever order you wish, but double check the prereqs (some of those aren't available at level 1 if the homebrew assassin isn't full-base-attack.) Can't comment on maneuvers just yet. You should notice a marked improvement overall.
#22 Lococ_Lobo Apr 24, 2013 23:55:51	Hey tempest thanks for the suggestions. I'll clean up the profession so it's clearer later, but I always put the newest stance or maneuver at the end of the list. I'll list the key abilities for the home brew real quick so their available until GITP recovers. At level 1 the homebrew class gives me access to 3 exotic or martial weapon proficiencies of my choice. I'll Put those in the list as well so it's clearer, but for now I chose Bastard Sword, Chain-and Dagger, and Claw Bracer. Additionally I receive Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. My GM is allowing me to use the chain and dagger like a kusari-gama. Second level grants evasion, and allows me to make an auto critical as a full round action. At third level I replace strength with dex for determining damage. Finally at 4th level I gain an ability that allows me to move on any surface as long as I finish my turn on a legal surface. If I don't I suffer any related consequences such as falling off a wall or sinking if I'm on water. As far as two weapon fighting goes, that's probably just a misunderstanding of the rules on my part. I thought I coils move and attack with my main and off hand, I just couldn't make any additional attacks. I'll look at changing the arrangment of my levels and I'll look at the lesser tiefling as well, though my GM has approved the standard tiefling. As far as my stats go they're fixed by the way our GM had us roll. A friend recommended a feat to put the high intel to use, it's from Dragon Magazine and lets me sub int for wis with my monk abilities I get from my prestige. I should probably adjust my score so they reflect racial modifiers.
#23 Lococ_Lobo Apr 25, 2013 23:54:14	Updated Progesssion and included additional feats that will help me take advantage of my high dex and Int. I still need to look at the lesser tiefling before deciding if I'm going to change races. I'm keeping Two weapon fighting in case i get stuck in a situation where i can't move effectively so i can still deal a good amount of damage. Mostly used at early levels and for a few feats. Using the Unarmed Swordsage since I get light armor proficiency from both of my other classes, I'm not losing anything and i get a free feet and better attacks if I'm unarmed. Not sure if I want to get power attack since requires me to dump four points into strength which will mean the earliest i can get it is level 18, and I don't know that it will do much. Also if I'm reading the ability correctly, I can't use it on light weapons which is what I'm primarily focused on using for this class. I've also altered my manuever progression to take better advantage of having two weapons. Any advice to improve it further is appreciated.
#24 Lococ_Lobo Apr 27, 2013 17:41:30	Using the Lesser Tiefling race for Player's Guide to Faerun. Also after looking at the Unarmed Strike ability for the monk, I can afford to ditch Two-Weapon fighting altogether and just use my off hand with a claw bracer for additional damage early game, and late game just use my bare fist. I'll be using Power Attack after i pick up Quick Draw so i can do a bit of extra damage. Suggestions for a better exotic weapon for this character than Bastard Sword and some additional feats to fill out later levels would also be great as well as further advice on optimization. Debating if i want 7 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja, or if I'd be better off with an extra level of Swordsage.
#25 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 27, 2013 23:01:46	Using the Lesser Tiefling race for Player's Guide to Faerun. Also after looking at the Unarmed Strike ability for the monk, I can afford to ditch Two-Weapon fighting altogether and just use my off hand with a claw bracer for additional damage early game, and late game just use my bare fist. I'll be using Power Attack after i pick up Quick Draw so i can do a bit of extra damage. Suggestions for a better exotic weapon for this character than Bastard Sword and some additional feats to fill out later levels would also be great as well as further advice on optimization. Debating if i want 7 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja, or if I'd be better off with an extra level of Swordsage. 1) Do not consider TWF in this case: It's slow (full-round), clumsy (lots of attack roll penalties), and futile (as attacks that are never made or never hit simply don't result in damage). The claw bracer is for style, but you probably won't be using it. 2) I repeat my suggestion of replacing the chain-and-dagger with the spiked chain. If you drop Quick Draw (literally no reason for it at all - if you must have its effect, look into the Least Crystal of Returning in the MIC) or TWF (see above), you can have room for Shadow Blade, which gives you another source of Dexterity to damage with the spiked chain. 3) Power Attack only works well if you have your weapons in both hands, and are utterly useless on light weapons (such as those used in off-hand attacks).
#26 Lococ_Lobo Apr 28, 2013 2:30:53	1) Do not consider TWF in this case: It's slow (full-round), clumsy (lots of attack roll penalties), and futile (as attacks that are never made or never hit simply don't result in damage). The claw bracer is for style, but you probably won't be using it. 2) I repeat my suggestion of replacing the chain-and-dagger with the spiked chain. If you drop Quick Draw (literally no reason for it at all - if you must have its effect, look into the Least Crystal of Returning in the MIC) or TWF (see above), you can have room for Shadow Blade, which gives you another source of Dexterity to damage with the spiked chain. Yes TWF's also unncessary as I can make the attack with my off hand by using the monk's Unarmed Strike track. At least for me this seem to make it beneficial to utilize a one handed weapon in one of my hands. The chain and dagger has less weight, and still provides my reach. I might be looking at this wrong though. I'll probably replace Bastard Sword with Spiked Chain so I can take advantage of the increased damage later, but until my strength is up, I'm really constrained as to what all I can carry without being penalized. Also went back and reviewed Quick Draw. Must've been confusing it with a feat in another system. Thought i twas giving me a boost to my initative for some reason. Have to look around for two more feats, and I'm trying to remember what the feat is that lets me hit a target every time it passes through a square i threaten. 3) Power Attack only works well if you have your weapons in both hands, and are utterly useless on light weapons (such as those used in off-hand attacks). That's what I've been gathering from talking to people and looking at the rules. Later when I'm using the Spike chain more it will be more effective. I also can't get it before level 16 due to the need to increase my strength to meet the requirements. I'm not sure how much of an investment it will be that late in development.
#27 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 28, 2013 8:53:22	Weight is meaningless unless you're a Jermaline or something. Without armor, you will carry everything other than that weapon in extradimensional storage space (read: weightless), so only your active weapon and worn magic gear really count. Meanwhile, the spiked chain benefits from Shadow Blade, (+Dex to damage, on top of whatever the assassin provides) while the chain and dagger does not. Just describe the spiked chain accordingly. The feat you want is combat reflexes or Stand Still. See also the Flash Step article in my sig. Also, again, lower your Int - it's doing nothing for you. Even if the 18 is post racial mods, and you have a native 16, you can lower that to 14 and get exactly enough points for 13 Strength and Power Attack.
#28 draco1119 Apr 28, 2013 9:01:21	Another possibility for the feat you're thinking of is Hold the Line, since it lets you get an AoO when a charging opponent ENTERS a square you threaten, instead of leave. Combat Reflexes is the one you'll really want, though.
#29 Lococ_Lobo Apr 28, 2013 15:12:16	Weight is meaningless unless you're a Jermaline or something. Without armor, you will carry everything other than that weapon in extradimensional storage space (read: weightless), so only your active weapon and worn magic gear really count. Meanwhile, the spiked chain benefits from Shadow Blade, (+Dex to damage, on top of whatever the assassin provides) while the chain and dagger does not. Just describe the spiked chain accordingly. The feat you want is combat reflexes or Stand Still. See also the Flash Step article in my sig. Also, again, lower your Int - it's doing nothing for you. Even if the 18 is post racial mods, and you have a native 16, you can lower that to 14 and get exactly enough points for 13 Strength and Power Attack. Stats are fixed by the roll, 1st was str, 2nd was dex, etc. Believe me if i could move this around i would. Sadly it's ruling out any kind of str based feats until later in the game. Also we are counting the weight of all carried gear, not just arms and armor. the only thing sitting in hypersapce is our coins unless then get to a ridiculously large amount. I'll add in Shadow blade for my 6th level feat. I was mis reading that. It will definitely give me a good boost to damage with how high up my dex is.
#30 draco1119 Apr 28, 2013 16:56:07	Yes, but remember that it ONLY WORKS with shadow Hand weapons. Spiked chain is one; chain & dagger (or kusari-gama) isn't.
#31 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 28, 2013 22:13:05	Also we are counting the weight of all carried gear, not just arms and armor. the only thing sitting in hypersapce is our coins unless then get to a ridiculously large amount. No, I meant you'd use stuff like this or this to carry stuff. Everyone should have the first one; it's okay if only one guy on the party manages all of the others. I'll add in Shadow blade for my 6th level feat. I was mis reading that. It will definitely give me a good boost to damage with how high up my dex is. It'll give a boost of 0 if you stay using the "chain dagger" instead of a spiked chain that you describe as a chain-and-dagger. The feat only works with the favored weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline, and that list includes the spiked chain but lacks any other chain weapon.
#32 Lococ_Lobo Apr 29, 2013 20:17:07	It'll give a boost of 0 if you stay using the "chain dagger" instead of a spiked chain that you describe as a chain-and-dagger. The feat only works with the favored weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline, and that list includes the spiked chain but lacks any other chain weapon. Yeah altered my EWPs again. I've ditched the chain-and-dagger since i won't be getting scout till third level now, so the added range won't be doing as much until then, and by that point I should be able to carry a spike chain one way or the other. No, I meant you'd use stuff like this or this to carry stuff. Everyone should have the first one; it's okay if only one guy on the party manages all of the others. Oh god yes, I'm hoping i get a HHH soon so i have something to haul extra neccesities like train rations and water in. Not to mention lots of extra daggers and sais. Also GiantITP is back up so you can all review the homebrew class.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 21, 2013 21:44:58

I've been playing Fate/stay night lately and I'm interested in playing a class similar to Rider's in a 3.5 Game. She seems to be something of a cross between a Rogue and Scout, but I'd like to get other people's advice on what class, or classes i should go for including prestige classes. I've got my stats rolled per my DM's rulings and I'm allowed up to a +2 LA for my class, but I'd like to not exceed a +1 LA. I'm also allowed to use any class from the books, the GITP forums, or the DanDWiki.

Str 09
Dex 17
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 15

Current Thoughts for build, please review and help optimize for effectiveness. Also need help determining good feats.

Show

Race: Tiefling, Lesser

Ability Socres after Racial Adjustment

Str 09
Dex 19
Con 16
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 13

Class&Levels: Homebrew Assassin 4/ Scout 3/ Unarmed Swordsage 5/ Shadow Sun Ninja 7

Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Adaptive style, Combat Reflexes, Kung Fu Genius
Possible Feats: Power Attack,

Level Progression

Level 1: Homebrew Assassin
     Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
     Abilities: Sneak Attack +1d6, 3 Exotic/ Martial Weapon
                proficiencies of my choice : Sai, Spiked Chain,
               Claw Bracer
     Feat: Combat Reflexes

Level 2: Unarmed Swordsage
     Bonus Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike
     Stance: Child of Shadow
     Maneuvers: Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Sudden Leap,
                Wolf Fang Strike, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind

Level 3: Scout
     Feat: Adaptive Style

Level 4: Homebrew Assassin
     Abilities: Evasion, Critical Strike: Take a full round action to deal 2x damage
               on a sucessful attack.

Level 5: Homebrew Assassin
     Abilities: Shadow Weapon: May use Dex instead of Str for damage with weapons.
                Sneak Attack +2d6

Level 6: Unarmed Swordsage
     Feat: Shadow Blade
     Stance: Step of the Wind
     Maneuvers: Burning Brand

Level 7: Scout

Level 8: Scout

Level 9: Unarmed Swordsage
     Feat: ???
     Maneuver: Burning Brand

Level 10 Homebrew Assassin
     Abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Across the Rooftops: Move up, down, or across any
               surface.

Level 11: Scout
    Bonus Feat:???

Level 12: Unarmed Swordsage
     Maneuver: Shadow Jaunt
     Feat: Kung Fu Genius

Level 13: Unarmed Swordsage
     Stances: Assassin's Stance
     Maneuvers: Shadow Garrote

Level 14-20: Shadow Sun Ninja

Level 15
     Feat: ???

Level 18
     Feat: Power Attack

draco1119

Apr 21, 2013 21:48:10

I have no idea what a "fate/stay night" is, but I STRONGLY encourage you or to use anything from the D&DWiki. Like, ever.
Just judging by the name "Rider" and that you think it might be a rogue or scout, why not try ranger/wild plains outrider?

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 21, 2013 22:12:18

Fate/Stay Night is a visual Novel by Type-Moon. It focuses around a series of servants fighting to obtain the Holy Grail for their masters. Rider is one of the Servant's and in the game she focuses on utilizing her high agility to make hit and run attacks with her "daggers" and spells. I was looking at a Ranger initally, but that class seems to be more along the lines of Archer's class.

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 21, 2013 22:33:46

Do not think that a character is a single class. Rider could be approximated quite well as a swift hunter (ranger/scout) with some of the Cityscape or Dungeonscape substitutions.

Also. Draco is right about DanDwiki.

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 21, 2013 22:41:26

Mobile, can't edit.

Another possibility is swiftblade:
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20...
More magical but pick the right buffs and base class and away you go. The Zero Buff Time Gish in my sig is one example. In addition to outstanding speed they get all the Spring Attack feats on the cheap.

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 21, 2013 22:45:19

Yeah i was just listing it since those were the sources i was given to pull data from. I'm strongly considering multi-classing, and I'm thinking either Drow or Tiefling for my race. I think I've found one half of my multiclass on GITP with the Assassin base class found here www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t.... Doesn't have the ride skill, but the foot mobility is very high. I'm not sure if i want to go ahead and give the char any kind of casting just hone it in on guerilla style melee damage.

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 22, 2013 22:12:26

Looking at the swift blade, it looks like it ties in very neatly with what I'm trying to do with this charachter. I've decided on my class build for level 20 after talking with my DM about the homebrew class i want to use. He's agreed to letting me use it on the condition that i drop the AC bonus. The homebrew class based on Assassin's Creed can be found here www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t....

The class build I'm looking at is Assassin 5/ Scout 3/ Sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade 6. Thoughts for optimization? I'm mostly looking to utilize hit an run attacks with support spells, and one or two powerful offensive spells i can cast using the Ocular Spell (Metamagic) Feat.

EruditeApe

Apr 22, 2013 23:46:58

No, don't go with Swift Hunter, or Swiftblade(Which is an overrated and honestly poor class) what you need is an Ubermount. Rider is a crappy Servant with a beyond kick-ass NP, and Ubermount is a decent character with a pony that can kick down the Tarrasque.

Halfling Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Mount or Companion progression 4 is the standard build.

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 23, 2013 0:21:59

@EruditeApe What do you mean by NP, and who is ubermount?

#10

draco1119

Apr 23, 2013 6:09:21

I don't know what NP is, but what he means is Supermount! (Do a search for that, with exclamation mark)

#11

EruditeApe

Apr 23, 2013 18:38:56

@EruditeApe What do you mean by NP,

Noble Phantasm. In this case, your mount.

and who is ubermount?

Ubermount is a form of build(Supermount! is the specific build), that relies on Devoted Tracker and Halfling Outrider to get a phenomenally powerful companion/mount.

#12

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 23, 2013 19:27:08

I looked over the class build suggested, and while it looks like a solid build, it's too dependent on a mount to be used in my group's campaign. I'm looking to achieve my goals without being MAD, especially on attributes I don't have any strength in.

From what I've seen so far Rider is a capable fighter on her own and at least for short periods can hold her own, even against a strong fighter like Saber by utilizing her speed and mobility.

This is what I'm trying to focus on so I can be of good use to my campaign group.

#13

draco1119

Apr 23, 2013 20:08:32

How about Tess the Molestress or Kris the Sadomasochist*?

*Which reminds me, I still need to update the feat list to drop Stand Still & add Double Hit.

#14

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 23, 2013 20:21:13

Can I get a link to Kris please?

#15

draco1119

Apr 23, 2013 21:00:43

Um... Can't do it from my phone. A search of the Character Optimization forum for "Kris the Sadomasochist" should get it for you, though.

#16

EruditeApe

Apr 23, 2013 21:23:52

I looked over the class build suggested, and while it looks like a solid build, it's too dependent on a mount to be used in my group's campaign.

I'd like to know why? That's quite a bit like saying a wizard is too dependent on spellcasting.

From what I've seen so far Rider is a capable fighter on her own and at least for short periods can hold her own, even against a strong fighter like Saber by utilizing her speed and mobility. This is what I'm trying to focus on so I can be of good use to my campaign group.

Except that's very wrong. She was getting beaten by Shiro's Saber. Shiro, if you'll remember, has nowhere near the magic needed to sustain a Servant, and thus Saber ends up sucking. If you're talking about Fate/Zero, then that's because of who this Rider was, one of the strongest Servants ever, and would be ludicrously strong whatever class he was in, much like Gilgamesh. Shiro's Saber, despite being who she was, was not overwhelming Lancer. Trying to scale off of Saber of F/SN is like trying to scale off of Usain Bolt with a broken leg.

F/SN's Rider without her NP is probably weaker than Tohsaka, bro. Seriously. And that's with who her Master is, that should really tell you something.

#17

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 23, 2013 21:59:03

@EruditeApe I'm not getting in a fight about another game and it's chars on this forum.

In response to your question, the class build is largely dependent on it's mount for abilities, and staying mounted is asking to get killed with the dungeons my GM builds. Out would be like asking a wizard to fight effectively in an anti-magic zone.

#18

EruditeApe

Apr 23, 2013 22:07:36

@EruditeApe I'm not getting in a fight about another game and it's chars on this forum.

What's there to fight about? While Medusa's NPs are great, she's weak.

In response to your question, the class build is largely dependent on it's mount for abilities, and staying mounted is asking to get killed with the dungeons my GM builds. Out would be like asking a wizard to fight effectively in an anti-magic zone.

Uh, bro? You do realize we're talking about you bein gon a medium sized animal with a massive jump score? And that your creature is capable of independant action?

Also, AMFs are weak and so easily bypassed, I'd be disappointed in a wizard who couldn't function in one.

#19

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 23, 2013 23:31:07

For the final time, whether you belive, and/or like it, the fact that the build will not work in my group remains true. Please get back on topic, or remove yourself from the discussion. Thank you.

On that note, I'm going to look at chosing a different prestige class which might make taking sorcerer levels irreleveant. I'd like to have the spellcasting, but it isn't necessary. I'm going to stick with 4 levels of the Assassin class from GITP, unless someone can provide me with a class/ ability that gives a similar effect to Across the Roofs, and 3 levels of scout for skirmish and a movement increase. For Race I've decided on a Yuan-Ti Pureblood. Suggestions for a prestige class and the best way to get into it a re appreciated. I'm going to be playing CG for alignment.

#20

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 24, 2013 22:36:24

Changed race to Tiefling, and Updated with a build to level 20. Suggestions for optimization are appreciated.

#21

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 24, 2013 23:04:20

Changed race to Tiefling, and Updated with a build to level 20. Suggestions for optimization are appreciated.

I can't check your homebrew as Giant is offline at the moment, and I don't know anything about your reference, but here we go anyway.

1) Use Lesser Tiefling (PGtF, I believe). They're identical to the normal tiefling except type Humanoid and LA+0. Outsider type is better for shapechanging; in the hands of a warrior it only matters for immunity to humanoid-only targeting effects, and most of those are minor, especially when compared to what the lower level adjustment buys you (especially because you've indicated you're starting at level 1, and thus LA+1 is unusable).

2) Skip Improved TWF - buy Gloves of the Balanced Hands (MIC). There are extremely few situations where this wouldn't be your best choice assuming you choose to dual-wield. That said, I have no idea why you're dual-wielding in the first place; you don't have a huge source of bonus damage (Assassin's Stance + whatever the assassin gives you (assuming it's Rogue-esque, that's +5d6); observe that because you lack any way of triggering Skirmish as a swift action, you will never be able to attack with both weapons while Skirmishing!) and you don't have a lot of maneuver synergy with TWF (i.e. no Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, or similar; only Burning Brand helps here). You'd be better off in almost every way by dropping TWF and replacing it with Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), which not only resembles Rider's weapon but will help out with other feedback given below.

3) If everything's open to you, use the unarmed swordsage (page 20, under Adaptation). This trades the swordsage's armor proficiency for the monk's Unarmed Strike ability, which includes the IUS feat as a bonus feat. This makes Shadow Sun Ninja easier to enter (and as a side effect you get a bit more oomph from the Monk Abilities feature, although this is minor) and frees up a feat slot in your build. (You might notice that now all of the feats you've chosen are open slots, except for the EWP.)

4) I can't really make sense of your maneuver progression because you decide to list everything at every level instead of just the changes. However, you will find better results if you make sure you have an even number of non-swordsage levels before every swordsage level.

5) Why are your Intelligence and Charisma so high? Literally nothing you have synergizes with them. You have very good rolls in general (and I do so hate the roll-for-stats method, in comparison to point-buy), but as a swordsage you might consider switching over to pure Dexterity as best you can, particularly because most of your stances are Shadow Hand and you've said you wanted to use a Rider-style chain weapon. In this case, using a Spiked Chain + Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade lets you get Dexterity to attack and damage. You can also shuffle some points into Strength - you will probably want Power Attack, which is not only the primary source of damage in melee, but also very compatible with the spiked chain (as it's two-handed).

Summary: Use Lesser Tiefling. Drop all the feats you've chosen. Use the Unarmed Swordsage. Shuffle points fro Int and Cha into Dex (mostly) and enough Str to hit 13. Take EWP (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and Shadow Blade in whatever order you wish, but double check the prereqs (some of those aren't available at level 1 if the homebrew assassin isn't full-base-attack.) Can't comment on maneuvers just yet. You should notice a marked improvement overall.

#22

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 24, 2013 23:55:51

Hey tempest thanks for the suggestions. I'll clean up the profession so it's clearer later, but I always put the newest stance or maneuver at the end of the list. I'll list the key abilities for the home brew real quick so their available until GITP recovers.

At level 1 the homebrew class gives me access to 3 exotic or martial weapon proficiencies of my choice. I'll Put those in the list as well so it's clearer, but for now I chose Bastard Sword, Chain-and Dagger, and Claw Bracer. Additionally I receive Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. My GM is allowing me to use the chain and dagger like a kusari-gama.

Second level grants evasion, and allows me to make an auto critical as a full round action. At third level I replace strength with dex for determining damage. Finally at 4th level I gain an ability that allows me to move on any surface as long as I finish my turn on a legal surface. If I don't I suffer any related consequences such as falling off a wall or sinking if I'm on water.

As far as two weapon fighting goes, that's probably just a misunderstanding of the rules on my part. I thought I coils move and attack with my main and off hand, I just couldn't make any additional attacks.

I'll look at changing the arrangment of my levels and I'll look at the lesser tiefling as well, though my GM has approved the standard tiefling.

As far as my stats go they're fixed by the way our GM had us roll. A friend recommended a feat to put the high intel to use, it's from Dragon Magazine and lets me sub int for wis with my monk abilities I get from my prestige. I should probably adjust my score so they reflect racial modifiers.

#23

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 25, 2013 23:54:14

Updated Progesssion and included additional feats that will help me take advantage of my high dex and Int. I still need to look at the lesser tiefling before deciding if I'm going to change races. I'm keeping Two weapon fighting in case i get stuck in a situation where i can't move effectively so i can still deal a good amount of damage. Mostly used at early levels and for a few feats. Using the Unarmed Swordsage since I get light armor proficiency from both of my other classes, I'm not losing anything and i get a free feet and better attacks if I'm unarmed. Not sure if I want to get power attack since requires me to dump four points into strength which will mean the earliest i can get it is level 18, and I don't know that it will do much. Also if I'm reading the ability correctly, I can't use it on light weapons which is what I'm primarily focused on using for this class. I've also altered my manuever progression to take better advantage of having two weapons. Any advice to improve it further is appreciated.

#24

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 27, 2013 17:41:30

Using the Lesser Tiefling race for Player's Guide to Faerun. Also after looking at the Unarmed Strike ability for the monk, I can afford to ditch Two-Weapon fighting altogether and just use my off hand with a claw bracer for additional damage early game, and late game just use my bare fist. I'll be using Power Attack after i pick up Quick Draw so i can do a bit of extra damage. Suggestions for a better exotic weapon for this character than Bastard Sword and some additional feats to fill out later levels would also be great as well as further advice on optimization. Debating if i want 7 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja, or if I'd be better off with an extra level of Swordsage.

#25

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 27, 2013 23:01:46

Using the Lesser Tiefling race for Player's Guide to Faerun. Also after looking at the Unarmed Strike ability for the monk, I can afford to ditch Two-Weapon fighting altogether and just use my off hand with a claw bracer for additional damage early game, and late game just use my bare fist. I'll be using Power Attack after i pick up Quick Draw so i can do a bit of extra damage. Suggestions for a better exotic weapon for this character than Bastard Sword and some additional feats to fill out later levels would also be great as well as further advice on optimization. Debating if i want 7 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja, or if I'd be better off with an extra level of Swordsage.

1) Do not consider TWF in this case: It's slow (full-round), clumsy (lots of attack roll penalties), and futile (as attacks that are never made or never hit simply don't result in damage). The claw bracer is for style, but you probably won't be using it.

2) I repeat my suggestion of replacing the chain-and-dagger with the spiked chain. If you drop Quick Draw (literally no reason for it at all - if you must have its effect, look into the Least Crystal of Returning in the MIC) or TWF (see above), you can have room for Shadow Blade, which gives you another source of Dexterity to damage with the spiked chain.

3) Power Attack only works well if you have your weapons in both hands, and are utterly useless on light weapons (such as those used in off-hand attacks).

#26

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 28, 2013 2:30:53

1) Do not consider TWF in this case: It's slow (full-round), clumsy (lots of attack roll penalties), and futile (as attacks that are never made or never hit simply don't result in damage). The claw bracer is for style, but you probably won't be using it.

2) I repeat my suggestion of replacing the chain-and-dagger with the spiked chain. If you drop Quick Draw (literally no reason for it at all - if you must have its effect, look into the Least Crystal of Returning in the MIC) or TWF (see above), you can have room for Shadow Blade, which gives you another source of Dexterity to damage with the spiked chain.

Yes TWF's also unncessary as I can make the attack with my off hand by using the monk's Unarmed Strike track. At least for me this seem to make it beneficial to utilize a one handed weapon in one of my hands. The chain and dagger has less weight, and still provides my reach. I might be looking at this wrong though. I'll probably replace Bastard Sword with Spiked Chain so I can take advantage of the increased damage later, but until my strength is up, I'm really constrained as to what all I can carry without being penalized.

Also went back and reviewed Quick Draw. Must've been confusing it with a feat in another system. Thought i twas giving me a boost to my initative for some reason. Have to look around for two more feats, and I'm trying to remember what the feat is that lets me hit a target every time it passes through a square i threaten.

3) Power Attack only works well if you have your weapons in both hands, and are utterly useless on light weapons (such as those used in off-hand attacks).

That's what I've been gathering from talking to people and looking at the rules. Later when I'm using the Spike chain more it will be more effective. I also can't get it before level 16 due to the need to increase my strength to meet the requirements. I'm not sure how much of an investment it will be that late in development.

#27

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 28, 2013 8:53:22

Weight is meaningless unless you're a Jermaline or something. Without armor, you will carry everything other than that weapon in extradimensional storage space (read: weightless), so only your active weapon and worn magic gear really count.

Meanwhile, the spiked chain benefits from Shadow Blade, (+Dex to damage, on top of whatever the assassin provides) while the chain and dagger does not. Just describe the spiked chain accordingly.

The feat you want is combat reflexes or Stand Still. See also the Flash Step article in my sig.

Also, again, lower your Int - it's doing nothing for you. Even if the 18 is post racial mods, and you have a native 16, you can lower that to 14 and get exactly enough points for 13 Strength and Power Attack.

#28

draco1119

Apr 28, 2013 9:01:21

Another possibility for the feat you're thinking of is Hold the Line, since it lets you get an AoO when a charging opponent ENTERS a square you threaten, instead of leave. Combat Reflexes is the one you'll really want, though.

#29

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 28, 2013 15:12:16

Weight is meaningless unless you're a Jermaline or something. Without armor, you will carry everything other than that weapon in extradimensional storage space (read: weightless), so only your active weapon and worn magic gear really count.

Meanwhile, the spiked chain benefits from Shadow Blade, (+Dex to damage, on top of whatever the assassin provides) while the chain and dagger does not. Just describe the spiked chain accordingly.

The feat you want is combat reflexes or Stand Still. See also the Flash Step article in my sig.

Also, again, lower your Int - it's doing nothing for you. Even if the 18 is post racial mods, and you have a native 16, you can lower that to 14 and get exactly enough points for 13 Strength and Power Attack.

Stats are fixed by the roll, 1st was str, 2nd was dex, etc. Believe me if i could move this around i would. Sadly it's ruling out any kind of str based feats until later in the game. Also we are counting the weight of all carried gear, not just arms and armor. the only thing sitting in hypersapce is our coins unless then get to a ridiculously large amount. I'll add in Shadow blade for my 6th level feat. I was mis reading that. It will definitely give me a good boost to damage with how high up my dex is.

#30

draco1119

Apr 28, 2013 16:56:07

Yes, but remember that it ONLY WORKS with shadow Hand weapons. Spiked chain is one; chain & dagger (or kusari-gama) isn't.

#31

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 28, 2013 22:13:05

Also we are counting the weight of all carried gear, not just arms and armor. the only thing sitting in hypersapce is our coins unless then get to a ridiculously large amount.

No, I meant you'd use stuff like this or this to carry stuff. Everyone should have the first one; it's okay if only one guy on the party manages all of the others.

I'll add in Shadow blade for my 6th level feat. I was mis reading that. It will definitely give me a good boost to damage with how high up my dex is.

It'll give a boost of 0 if you stay using the "chain dagger" instead of a spiked chain that you describe as a chain-and-dagger. The feat only works with the favored weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline, and that list includes the spiked chain but lacks any other chain weapon.

#32

Lococ_Lobo

Apr 29, 2013 20:17:07

It'll give a boost of 0 if you stay using the "chain dagger" instead of a spiked chain that you describe as a chain-and-dagger. The feat only works with the favored weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline, and that list includes the spiked chain but lacks any other chain weapon.

Yeah altered my EWPs again. I've ditched the chain-and-dagger since i won't be getting scout till third level now, so the added range won't be doing as much until then, and by that point I should be able to carry a spike chain one way or the other.

No, I meant you'd use stuff like this or this to carry stuff. Everyone should have the first one; it's okay if only one guy on the party manages all of the others.

Oh god yes, I'm hoping i get a HHH soon so i have something to haul extra neccesities like train rations and water in. Not to mention lots of extra daggers and sais.

Also GiantITP is back up so you can all review the homebrew class.