CG Human
Bard1/Barbarian1/Paladin2/Bard2/AbjurantChampion3/Bard1/SublimeChord1/SacredExorcist1/AbjurantChampion2/SublimeChord1/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist3/Warblade1
It gets CHAx2 for to-hit and to-damage, instead of str. It also gets pounce, CHA to saves, 17 BAB and 9th level spells.
The warblade level is sketchy but I like it for Dancing Mongoose
Maneuvers:
Rabid Wolf Strike
Sudden Leap
Dancing Mongoose
Stances:
Blood in the Water
Here's a great item! Mmm.
Important gear:
Slippers of battledancing
And now here's my question: What do you think about my feat selection? Here are the ones I picked (taking 2 flaws):
Feats:
Combat casting
twf
itwf
gtwf
snowflake wardance
divine might
knowledge devotion
power attack
leap attack
arcane strike
Here are the ones that got dropped:
Also wanted:
Words of Creation
Extra Music
extend spell
persist spell
oversized twf
shock trooper
practiced caster
arcane disciple
able learner
weapon focus
improved initiative
improved toughness
Any thoughts? I know twf doesn't get much love... damn those 3 feats and fighting at a -4... but I went for it anyways. This build seems like it has a solid damage output, as far as I can tell. I didn't crunch the numbers.
Also since you have Bard spellcasting and not sorc/wiz you're missing out on some nice arcane gish spells like Wraithstrike, Fist of Stone, Stoneskin, etc. Also what race were you thinking? Since you have a 2 level gap you'd take a 20% xp hit unless you chose a race with favored class Bard (Spellscale?) or favored class any (Illumian). Also you'd have to be a Paladin of Freedom (UA) in order not to get messed up with the Barbs and Bards chaotic alignment restrictions.
As for the feats, I'd go with Improved Initiative (very important that you go before casters since you're a semi-tank), Combat Intuition (good for sizing up enemies and getting plus to grapple, resist bull rush)Versatile Spellcaster + Ring of Wizardy will give lots of spell options. Also you might consider Bardic Music feats like Ironskin Chant (DR 5/- is nice) or Lyric Spell too.
Yeah I'd ditch twf feats and pick up a two handed weapon, that will help your damage output in addition twf really doesn't mesh wll with power attack in my experience. How ar you getting twice your CHA to hit and damage? I'm not familiar with sublime chord or warblade, is something from one of those classes?
Also since you have Bard spellcasting and not sorc/wiz you're missing out on some nice arcane gish spells like Wraithstrike, Fist of Stone, Stoneskin, etc. Also what race were you thinking? Since you have a 2 level gap you'd take a 20% xp hit unless you chose a race with favored class Bard (Spellscale?) or favored class any (Illumian). Also you'd have to be a Paladin of Freedom (UA) in order not to get messed up with the Barbs and Bards chaotic alignment restrictions.
As for the feats, I'd go with Improved Initiative (very important that you go before casters since you're a semi-tank), Combat Intuition (good for sizing up enemies and getting plus to grapple, resist bull rush)Versatile Spellcaster + Ring of Wizardy will give lots of spell options. Also you might consider Bardic Music feats like Ironskin Chant (DR 5/- is nice) or Lyric Spell too.
Divine power gives CHA to damage, Snowflake wardance gives CHA to hit, and slippers of battledancing replace str or dex for to hit and damage.
Knock on TWF all you want, the fact is this build gets 10 attacks, and with 2:1 return thats 20 dmg per BAB, compared to 6 attacks at 3 for 18 damage per BAB. It actually gets more from power attack... not to mention all the other stuff from the extra hits.
Sublime Chord gives sorc/wiz casting, just not at low levels. If a DM would allow you to take wraithstrike in the first place, you just need to use a 4th level spell known to nab it, since SC starts at level 4.
The race is definitely human, because humans kick ass. That gives a feat, the needed favored class, and skill points. And yes, it is paladin of freedom. Because everyone is @#%@ sick of LG paladins anyways.
I do like improved initiative, but there just isn't room for it.
As is, the build is mainly a glass cannon if anything is stupid enough to be in sudden leap->charge attack range, with spells being buffs and BC.
May as well figure out the damage. Assume 34 final CHA for +12 mod.
24 damage from CHA
34 power attack
Plus another 15 or so from arcane strike, 5 enhancement... all told I'd say it hits something like 100 damage per hit, at 10 hits that's good enough.
The funny thing about this build is you could even make it an archer if you want to (That was the original version, but there was just too much TWF synergy for me to pass that up).
As an archer it replaces the barbarian and warblade levels for 2 levels of arcane archer, and winds up with the same BAB and spellcasting. Abusing truestrike+manyshot is amusing to say the least.
Slippers of battle dancing activates when you move at least 10 feet as part of move action which you don't if you charge.
Nice build anyway...
You want to add Power Attack damage, and add Cha to hit one-handed slashing weapons only. That leaves battleaxe, longsword, scimitar. And you have to use Bardic Music and are fatigued afterwards (which is a big deal).
On top of that, you're going to have a monster Dex b/c of the TWF feats you're taking.
Here's an alternative: Take Weapon Finnesse, and use a Rapier. If you want to stick with TWF and dual-wield Rapiers, but I don't think its worth 3 feats down the TWF chain.
This character is actually a Cha/Dex-based gish, as is, imo.
There's nothing wrong with a Str and Cha based caster; its less feat-intensive, too.
I agree with JWO that a str-based gish with power attack and a two handed weapon is the way to go, better damage output and less feats.
I'm also not liking the warblade level, it takes away from your spellcasting and comes too late in the build to be worthwhile.
My build would be bard7/barbarian1/paladin2/sublimechord2/abjurantchampion5/sacredexorcist3.
The main thing you'd probably want is Echoblade from Magic Item Compendium, adds half bard lvls as a sonic damage thing.
Feat wise, you'd also like song of the white raven, travel domain devotion, and possibly animal domain devotion. I always cursed the fact bards needed a 'warmup round' in combat and song of the white raven gets rid of that. Travel domain devotion also let's you use turn attempts as a move action (though you can replace this with belt of battle as well). Finally, animal domain devotion let's you get the massive strength bonus if necessary.
As a divine type, you may also want to consider ordained champion 1 and cloistered cleric 1. For a 1 lvl dip, you can swap all you domain stuff into fighting feats, and get war domain for free. Now that means giving up some base attack, but it also means less dependency on the sacred exorcist to power your turning stuff.
For even more multi attack flurry, add in overwhelming chaos monk variant, you get power attack and the [1d4-1] extra attacks for 1 lvl dip. Now you have anywhere from 3 extra attacks on a full attack, and can dump strength.
Hope that helps!
It is very reliant on slippers of battledancing's forced movement. I took sudden leap to help this... but the only other solution I can think of is dimensional jumper, greater. I think I'll have to look up some other swift action movement spells?
I like the idea of using those gloves, thanks for that. It drops the dex required down to 15. Losing an attack at high levels stinks, but I like the two extra feats.
As mentioned, I need one more feat I can take at level one... so over-sized twf for a +2 to hit looks good. For the other feat I like shock-trooper.
Now at 9 attacks at +2 from power attack versus 6 attacks at +3 from power attack... power attack damage added is equal TWF versus THF. However, It costs me an item two feats and a -2 to hit, in exchange for 2 or 3 more attacks.
The level of warblade is insane, I admit. The 2 extra attacks it gives just seems too good to pass up though. If I wasn't TWFing, I would definitely not take it though.
28 pt buy stats:
twf stats
Str: 13 (For power attack)
Dex: 15 (For TWF)
Con: 13 (2nd most important stat)
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16 (Hugely important stat)
thf stats
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
Sublime Chord gives sorc/wiz casting, just not at low levels. If a DM would allow you to take wraithstrike in the first place, you just need to use a 4th level spell known to nab it, since SC starts at level 4.
You would want heroics if you can exchange sublime chord spells known for lower spells .
And leaving you fatigued in combat is terrible. Lesser Restoration costs 3 rounds to cast, which means that barring something like a Heal, you won't get "unfatigued" in combat very easily if it wears off. Out of combat, its not as bad, but it still requires some spell investment from your cleric/druid.
Also, Leap Attack was errataed to return 100% of PA damage. That means 2:1 PA with a 1 hander, and 4:1 return with a 2hander. That brings the TWF and 2HF numbers a lot closer together.
Travel Devotion gives you movement as a swift action, which should trigger Slippers.
And Song of the White Raven is actually bad for IC. The reasoning behind this is that a power IC round goes:
Swift: Inspirational Boost
Standard: Inspire Courage
Immediate: Badge of Valor
If you speed up your IC with SotWR, you lose out on the ability to benefit from Insp Boost, which IMO, is worth the action for your whole team.
Make sense?
Another option is the Cyran Gliding boots, it let's you take a 10 foot step.
There's also the gauntlets of heartfelt blows from the dragon magazine compendium... Adds fire damage to your attacks equal to your charisma modifier.
I do agree that Snowflake wardance is tough to use effectively... My personal recommendation for the "awesome +cha hit" is the ordained champion, they get smite any foe for 1 turn attempt, and due to the mechanics can get basically their character lvl in +dmg. Still its pretty nice to have it on all the time, along with divine sacrifice which can net ya another +5d6 for 10 hp on one blow.
But the above is more for the 2 handed power attacking bard... I notice with optimized inspire courage, the +cha can get redundant but damage resistance is always an issue. Also using 2 weapons means you need double the spell power for things like keen edge or bless weapon, which becomes problematic in actual play.
Also, you might want Initiate of Milil from Champions of Valor, it stacks paladin, cleric and bard lvls for what songs you qualify for, and with a little tweaking that means you get inspire greatness. That in itself is not that great, until you realize you can use both with inspire courage.
And if you get focused performer (another dragon magazine feat) you can apply each of the songs in one use, or double the effects of one on a single target... Netting you +4 (or +6 with song of the heart gained free from giving up suggestion in Eberron campaign setting) from inspire greatness and +12? +16? (hell i forget the optimized number) from inspire courage. Another option that doesn't produce any fatigue.
Swift: Inspirational Boost
Standard: Inspire Courage
Immediate: Badge of Valor
You can't do a swift action and an immediate action in the same round. An immediate action is basically a swift action that you don't have to take on your turn.
My gish was focused on using two greater wounding weapons for offense, and use pretty much all his spells for buffs, defense and utility.
Why not? The immediate action takes your next round's swift action.
Um, no. It doesn't work that way. Taken from Rules Compendium page 7:
Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you can use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or swift action until after your next turn.
Um, no. It doesn't work that way. Taken from Rules Compendium page 7:
Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you can use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or swift action until after your next turn.
You are saying 95% the same as the other guy (at least the bolded part is the same)
You are saying 95% the same as the other guy (at least the bolded part is the same)
I'm saying you can't cast an immediate action and a swift action in the same round
I'm saying you can't cast an immediate action and a swift action in the same round
Hench the last 5% (which was not the bolded part) :embarrass
I'm saying you can't cast an immediate action and a swift action in the same round
Yeah, so you use a standard action and a swift action to activate Inspirational Boost and Inspire Courage, and your move equivalent action to do what ever you want. Your turn is now over and you can use an immediate action to activate Badge of Valor. That’s perfectly legal, although it should be noted that you cannot then use a swift action on your next turn.
Example:
His turn
He uses swift action to cast inspiration boost
then he uses standart action to start inspire courage
then he ends his turn.
Right after he has ended his turn he can use his next turns immediate action to use that badge of valor.
If you play that you get it at the end of your turn, which allows the use of the immediate action as "next round" 's swift action.
If you get it back at the start of your turn though, then this doesn't work. You can use an immediate action right before your turn and then use your swift action, though.
I always played that an entire round had to have elapsed, the most restrictive option.
Does anyone know some specific page where the answer to when you get your swift action back is plainly stated?
One per round is pretty clear... but when does a round end?
This swift/immediate argument depends on when you get your swift action back.
If you play that you get it at the end of your turn, which allows the use of the immediate action as "next round" 's swift action.
If you get it back at the start of your turn though, then this doesn't work. You can use an immediate action right before your turn and then use your swift action, though.
I always played that an entire round had to have elapsed, the most restrictive option.
Does anyone know some specific page where the answer to when you get your swift action back is plainly stated?
One per round is pretty clear... but when does a round end?
Swift action is once per round, on your turn only. Immediate action can take the place of that only you don't have to cast it during your turn
Swift: Insp Boost
Standard: Insp Courage
Move: Doesn't matter
End my turn
Start next guys turn
Immediate: Badge
So..it costs you your first 2 swift actions each combat, leaving you no ability to use Sudden Leap or Raging Mongoose until the 3rd round of combat. Kinda sucks. I was running into a huge starvation of swift actions the first time I tried playing a Bardblade (TWF Bard + Warblade using DFI).
Also, if you don't mind a bit of questionable rules interpretation, you could take the Harmonious Knight substitution levels in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (check Some Handy Links stickied above!). This gives you Inspire Courage instead of Detect Evil. While technically not the "Bardic Music" ability as called out in Sublime Chord, it IS A Bardic Music. Then you could do something like this.
Paladin4/Sorcerer4/OrdainedChampion2/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1/X1
Using Versitile Spellcaster to qualify as 3rd level spells for SC. This gives you Cha smites for turn attempts, Divine Might for turn attempts, full SC casting with a CL of 18 (assuming X is a full caster and Practiced Spellcaster: Sorc), and 16 BAB (assuming X doesn't get +1 BAB).
Again, a couple of questionable things, primarily using Harmonious Knight to qualify for SC, but I don't see too much wrong with it. If you take the 3rd level HK sub too, you get Inspire Competance, which sucks, but allows you to take the Song of the Heart feat for +1 IC.
At level 20, its IC is only +1... +4 if you optimize it or +6 if you also have words of creation. Greater Heroism (possibly chained from the primary wizard) looks like the superior option. Bardic music will be gobbled up by snowflade wardance.
I have never had any problems with twf gishes. I normally just have one weapon out and draw the other one during a charge. When there isn't anything to smack I just drop a weapon and cast.
I think I'll drop oversized TWF for travel devotion. That should be more than enough swift action movement.
This swift/immediate argument depends on when you get your swift action back.
Does anyone know some specific page where the answer to when you get your swift action back is plainly stated?
It is in races of destiny page 161 and i think it is in few other books too and also in D&D wiki
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn)