Any thoughts?
As the title says, I'm going to be playing a Ghaele Eladrin (from level 3) in an upcoming campaign, using the progression in Savage Species, plus a couple changes to bring it in line with 3.5. Since I can't multiclass out until 20 (and the campaign will probably be dead by then...), I was trying to find some good feats. So far, all I have reasonably come up with is Armor Proficiency, because I don't get any (but I do get all martial weapons), and going without armor completely seems like a bad idea.
Any thoughts?
You are aware that the ECL of the Ghaele Eladrin was changed from 20 to - from 3.0 to 3.5, right?
However, assuming that your GM is still giving you the go-ahead for the Ghaele...
You only get 4 feats, you're gonna have to use them very wisely. You're also essentially a weak BAB class, and due to your LA you won't even be able to use Divine Power to increase your BAB.
If you're planning on being a damage dealer, then I personally would try to focus on Combat Reflexes, and feats to help you garner more attacks during the round from Attacks of Opportunity (such as Supernatural Opportunist from Tome of Magic). Power Attack is always a safe bet, even if your BAB isn't too great.
As for armour, you've got a +6 WIS from your race. Your options are either to skip the armour alltogether and get a Monk's Belt + Bracers of Armour, or to get something without an ACP, such as Mithral Chain Shirt.
Just like mentioned above, the ECL as been changed and now the ghaele is not considered a playable character anymore accroding to the new MM rules. That's the saddest thing 
Anyway, I agree with the above post. Don't waste your precious feats over armor proficiencies, just use armor without check penalty (leather armor at first, than mythril chain shirt).
Power attack, although not as useful in itself considering your low AB, gives you access to a bunch of additional feat. Combat reflexes also allow you to have more attack in a round, coupled with the Robillard's Gambit will allow you to respond to every attacks at your full AB at the cost of being a little easier to hit. But considering you'll have access to magic object just as anyone else and that you have that HUGE +14 natural AC, you can spare to lower your ac just a little bit. Since you have a great strenght, you could even get combat expertise to switch this penalty over to your AB if you prefer keeping your defense up.
You could perhaps look into the Ghostwalk supplement to see if you can take feat that enhance (ie give you more options) you incorporal globe form. Also if you can find anything that increases your SR it could be a very good way to spend 4 feats (I only know of 2 that cover your general SR; one's evil, one's for dragons).
Another good way to spell your feat is to specialize in one form of melee. For example, you could get combat expertise, improved trip and use a halberd. Or a reach weapon with the above feat and also take stand still to stop enemy in their wake. Or you could rely on your spellcasting and take feat that enhance you spellcasting in combat. Archery feats, or rather feat that enhance you ranged fighting ability, can also be usefull for your globe form. And nothing stops you from going TWF all the way (perhaps your DEX could stop you).
What you really need to do is carefully go over every option you have as a ghaele. Look at all the powers, the spells you can get, how to pick your stats. I think you will find (if you haven't already) that in the hand of a clever player Ghaele can be unbelievably powerful.
Regardless...your choice of feats will probably depend on whether you plan on fighting in humanoid or globe form. If it is the later, you may want to consider picking up rapid shot (and its prereq, point blank shot). Check with your DM first to confirm if he will allow rapid shot to apply to your eye rays (giving you 3 attacks, possibly 4 if the DM lets haste apply as well).
It seems a little premature to take them now, but you are fairly feat starved, and so will need to do some early planning, since you will only get another feat at ECL7 and 15. So you may want to bite the bullet and take feats which are off limited use early on, but will pay off sometime later.
In humanoid form, I agree with the reach weapon route. Maybe combat expertise and improved trip at 3rd lv, and improved disarm at 7th? You will eventually be very fragile because of your lack of HD, and so anything that lets you eschew direct combat is always welcome.
Regarding armour prof, I think you are simply better off using armour with no ACP, eg: leather-->masterwork studded-->mithral chainshirt in that order. Or see if you can access exalted spells like luminous armour (and get a rod of lesser extend quick).
VOP is an interesting alternative, but its effectiveness hinges on your DM basing its benefits off your ECL, rather than your total number of HD. Not least because its effects carry over to your alternate form (which other eq, such as periapt of wisdom do not).
Anyway, I agree with the above post. Don't waste your precious feats over armor proficiencies, just use armor without check penalty (leather armor at first, than mythril chain shirt).
Yes, I agree with everyone who has said things like this, I will definitely do so.
Power attack, although not as useful in itself considering your low AB, gives you access to a bunch of additional feat. Combat reflexes also allow you to have more attack in a round, coupled with the Robillard's Gambit will allow you to respond to every attacks at your full AB at the cost of being a little easier to hit.
Well, Robilar's Gambit requires a BAB of +12, which I won't reach pre-epic, so that's out. The alternative, Karmic Strike, requires the enemy to actually hit me, which seems like a bad idea considering my relatively low hit points.
But considering you'll have access to magic object just as anyone else and that you have that HUGE +14 natural AC, you can spare to lower your ac just a little bit. Since you have a great strenght, you could even get combat expertise to switch this penalty over to your AB if you prefer keeping your defense up.
If only there was a -AC +AB feat instead (one that I could reasonably take, that is).
Another good way to spell your feat is to specialize in one form of melee. For example, you could get combat expertise, improved trip and use a halberd. Or a reach weapon with the above feat and also take stand still to stop enemy in their wake.
Stand Still with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip sounds like a great combo for when I'd wade into combat (and aren't being the superbuffbot).
If you're planning on being a damage dealer, then I personally would try to focus on Combat Reflexes, and feats to help you garner more attacks during the round from Attacks of Opportunity (such as Supernatural Opportunist from Tome of Magic). Power Attack is always a safe bet, even if your BAB isn't too great.
Supernatural Opportunist also looks like a neat way to go. That says "supernatural abilities"... does that mean any creature with an (su) in their block somewhere? Does that include PCs who have (su)s in their class levels? If so, that's ridiculously powerful.
It is worth noting that the ghaele was given an ECL of 20 in BOED, which is 3.5.
Yup, that's what I'm going off of.
Regardless...your choice of feats will probably depend on whether you plan on fighting in humanoid or globe form.
Mostly humanoid form; globe form just doesn't seem like my shtick.
Regarding armour prof, I think you are simply better off using armour with no ACP, eg: leather-->masterwork studded-->mithral chainshirt in that order. Or see if you can access exalted spells like luminous armour (and get a rod of lesser extend quick).
Luminous Armor is a GREAT suggestion, thanks! Definitely picking that up ASAP.
VOP is an interesting alternative, but its effectiveness hinges on your DM basing its benefits off your ECL, rather than your total number of HD. Not least because its effects carry over to your alternate form (which other eq, such as periapt of wisdom do not).
He said it's HD based, and even if not, it doesn't seem to be that great of an alternative anyways.
Pretty much, you need to focus on a way to generate extra attacks.
Another opton as mentioned above is Improved Trip, though I would also suggest adding in Knockdown. You'll have a pretty decent STR score near high-game, so focusing on Tripping isn't too bad an idea.
if anyone can think of a way for the character to get Thicket of Blades, itd be useful.
That would be
Level 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Martial Study (Devoted Spirit: Vanguard Strike/Crusader's Strike)
Level 7: Martial Stance (Devoted Spirit: Thicket of Blades)
That SHOULD work. At 7th level, I'd have 6 HD, which would be an initiator level of 3, enough to learn Thicket of Blades. Unless, of course, I misunderstand the whole idea.
I would normally suggest Mage Slayer aswell, but the CL drop would be nasty for your casting.
-4 caster level is a really big drop, considering my CL for SLAs is HD and for Spells is level, that would pretty much nerf that into the ground.
Pretty much, you need to focus on a way to generate extra attacks.
Another opton as mentioned above is Improved Trip, though I would also suggest adding in Knockdown. You'll have a pretty decent STR score near high-game, so focusing on Tripping isn't too bad an idea.
Yes, but my BAB is going to be mediocre at best, so tripping isn't the greatest idea in my opinion. Although, it may play out well, so I need to weigh it against Supernatural Opportunist and Thicket of Blades, especially as I don't get another feat after 7 until 15...
Also, where and what is "Knockdown"?
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
a useful feat for a Ghaele is: Ability Focus(Gaze Attack) or Ability Focus(hold monster) .. to boost the DC to 20 for either one
also fun is:
Improved Natural Attack(Light Ray) ..... thus it will now do 2d12>6d6
:D
Well, Robilar's Gambit requires a BAB of +12, which I won't reach pre-epic, so that's out. The alternative, Karmic Strike, requires the enemy to actually hit me, which seems like a bad idea considering my relatively low hit points.
If only there was a -AC +AB feat instead (one that I could reasonably take, that is).
Mostly humanoid form; globe form just doesn't seem like my shtick.
I forgot about that part for robilar's gambit, good catch. Instead of karmic strike, there's a feat called riposte of something similar, that allow you to attack back if you are missed on an attack instead of being hit, but you have to fight defensively I think.
Reckless Offense (XPH) allow you to trade - 4 AC to get + 2 attack. It's a general feat if I remember correctly.
Look carefully at the globe form; incorporality, 2 full AB range TOUCH attack with 300 ft range, which also happen to be extrordinary abilities, and fly perfect at 150ft. And you get to keep the spell-likes/buffs you used. You're gonna want to use that for sure.
Improved Natural Attack(Light Ray) ..... thus it will now do 2d12>6d6
Woah wait what? Are you entirely sure that actually works? I'm not entirely sure that "Light Rays" count as a Natural Attack. They're listed as an (ex) in their block.
I forgot about that part for robilar's gambit, good catch. Instead of karmic strike, there's a feat called riposte of something similar, that allow you to attack back if you are missed on an attack instead of being hit, but you have to fight defensively I think.
I can't find it with that info. There's only two with "riposte" in the feat index, and neither do quite what you're talking about.
Look carefully at the globe form; incorporality, 2 full AB range TOUCH attack with 300 ft range, which also happen to be extrordinary abilities, and fly perfect at 150ft. And you get to keep the spell-likes/buffs you used. You're gonna want to use that for sure.
Sure, it sounds great, but what feats could I use to enhance it? I haven't asked if rapid shot will fly or not, but I'd guess no. I looked through ghostwalk, and all the feats in there that might help require me to actually be a ghost.
Also, adventuring with a bunch of mortals that don't exactly know I'm a celestial (i know, story on the CO boards)... well, let's just say spontaneously turning into a 5-foot globe of eldritch color might surprise some of them. Better put points into bluff...
That SHOULD work. At 7th level, I'd have 6 HD, which would be an initiator level of 3, enough to learn Thicket of Blades. Unless, of course, I misunderstand the whole idea.
Thicket of blades is a 3rd lv stance, meaning you need at least IL5 (or 10HD). So there is no way to acquire it pre-epic for a ghaele. For maneuvers, you are better off acquiring them via magic items, than spending precious feats.
let's just say spontaneously turning into a 5-foot globe of eldritch color might surprise some of them. Better put points into bluff...
Well, you shouldn't have problems passing off as an elven cleric of sorts...so maybe you can try to pass off your alternate form as a polymorph spell of sorts? :P
Not sure how INA interacts with light rays (technically, they should count as natural attacks), better check with your DM here.
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural attack.
and Ghaeles have 2 Natural Forms.... Humanoid and Globe... notice:
Alternate Form (Su): A ghaele can shift between its humanoid and globe forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, it cannot fly or use its light rays, but it can use its gaze attack and spell-like abilities, make physical attacks, and cast spells. In globe form, it can fly, use its light rays, and use spell-like abilities, but it cannot cast spells or use its gaze attack. The globe form is incorporeal, and the ghaele has no Strength score while in that form.
A ghaele remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the ghaele revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability, however, reveals both forms simultaneously.
normally 1d12 increases to 3d6... thus 2d12> 6d6
:D
1) Can somebody point me to the "Riposte" feat mentioned by Tordak? Free attack against an opponent that misses you while you are fighting defensively, is what he mentioned.
2) Does this combo work? There must be something here that makes this not work (or maybe not). Knockdown + Improved Trip
Attack - do more than 10 damage. Get a free trip attack (Knockdown). Trip attack succeeds. Improved trip reads "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." So, after getting the free trip from Knockdown, do I get another melee attack from Improved Trip?
2) Does this combo work? There must be something here that makes this not work (or maybe not). Knockdown + Improved Trip
Attack - do more than 10 damage. Get a free trip attack (Knockdown). Trip attack succeeds. Improved trip reads "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." So, after getting the free trip from Knockdown, do I get another melee attack from Improved Trip?
It depends on how you (or rather, your DM) interprets what attack you use to make the trip attempt. IIRC, knockdown lets you make a trip attempt as a free action if you hit. So improved trip might just give you that free action back, which you can't really make use of. It is a very grey area in the rules which I don't think anyone can answer conclusively (in fact, I had a debate about this a long time back, but no resolution).
My DM once tried a similar stunt, where he gave a fiendish advanced dire wolf improved trip (2 lvs in wolf totem barb :P ). After the fight, he admitted that he wasn't entirely sure if it was supposed to work that way either, but what the heck, it made for one really eye-opening fight (wolf moved to threaten 2 PCs, hit both via steel wind maneuver, tripped both, got 2 free attacks courtesy of improved trip.
)Q. If I use the Knock-Down feat to trip an opponent, can I get a free attack from my Improved Trip feat?
A. Nope. You have to use an attack to trip an opponent and then get an attack. You get a free action to trip your opponent with this feat (ie - you haven't given up an attack to trip them, you have already taken it, so you do not get another one).
So, I'll be taking that as an official (enough) ruling on it. The whole thing's 3.0 anyways, so I'll be throwing that idea out the window.
1) Can somebody point me to the "Riposte" feat mentioned by Tordak? Free attack against an opponent that misses you while you are fighting defensively, is what he mentioned.
The "Dragon Compendium" book, page 105, has this feat. Int 13, Combat Expertise, and BAB+5 are required to take it. You must be using Combat Expertise (even for just 1 point), not fighting defensively, and it only works once per round.
It's inspired by a 3.0 feat from Dragon #304, page 85, which is only provides small attack bonus instead of an attack of opportunity (and is thus quite inferior).
The "Dragon Compendium" book, page 105, has this feat. Int 13, Combat Expertise, and BAB+5 are required to take it. You must be using Combat Expertise (even for just 1 point), not fighting defensively, and it only works once per round.
It's inspired by a 3.0 feat from Dragon #304, page 85, which is only provides small attack bonus instead of an attack of opportunity (and is thus quite inferior).
Urgh... Dragon Compendium... not only do I not have the book (or that issue of the magazine), even if I did, my DM frowns quite heavily on the use of third-party material or Dragon.
Looks like I'll be going Combat Reflexes -> Supernatural Crusader -> Supernatural Opportunist (using a Glaive, perhaps) OR Combat Reflexes -> Improved Trip -> Improved Natural Attack (Light Rays) || Stand Still (using a Guisarme; else Halbred).
Thanks for all the help!
Yes, but my BAB is going to be mediocre at best, so tripping isn't the greatest idea in my opinion. Although, it may play out well, so I need to weigh it against Supernatural Opportunist and Thicket of Blades, especially as I don't get another feat after 7 until 15...
Also, where and what is "Knockdown"?
Tripping doesn't use your BAB. Knockdown can also be found in the SRD.
My DM once tried a similar stunt, where he gave a fiendish advanced dire wolf improved trip (2 lvs in wolf totem barb :P ). After the fight, he admitted that he wasn't entirely sure if it was supposed to work that way either, but what the heck, it made for one really eye-opening fight (wolf moved to threaten 2 PCs, hit both via steel wind maneuver, tripped both, got 2 free attacks courtesy of improved trip.
A wolfs Trip(Ex) ability actually works with Improved Trip, unlike Knockdown. The trip is something that happens as a byproduct of the action, not as the intent of the action itself. Its similar to Improved Grab (not Improved Grapple), which allows the grabber to make a free grapple attempt after every melee hit with certain attacks. Its just there, which is different from Knockdown.
Tripping doesn't use your BAB.
Well, so it doesn't. Haven't looked at that in a looong time. Guess that's a lot more viable than I thought after all. More running it over in my head, then...
Knockdown can also be found in the SRD.
Not going to use it. That's the exact reprint from Dieties and Demigods, which is an exact reprint from Sword and Fist. 3.0 is out for me even if my DM says it's in, no matter where it gets printed. Guess I'm stubborn that way. It's also listed on this page as not yet revised for 3.5, which sends off warning bells in my head that it's not meant for 3.5 (they could have just reprinted it in Complete Warrior and, well, didn't). Long story short, not using it, not going to try and pass it over my DM's head.
:D
Your second feat chain is missing Combat Expertise for the pre-req of Improved Trip.
Unless you're using the Trip feat chain, using a Glaive is good, as size increases push it to d8's of damage, which scales better for damage. With the Improved Trip option, Ransuer is a no-brainer. Both can be backed up with putting Armour Spikes on your Mithral Chain Shirt for close range threatening.
I would honestly suggest against using Stand Still without getting Thicket of Blades - there's not much point hitting someone to stop movement when they can still tumble and/or 5 foot step past you.
Your second feat chain is missing Combat Expertise for the pre-req of Improved Trip.
Duly noted, thank you.
Unless you're using the Trip feat chain, using a Glaive is good, as size increases push it to d8's of damage, which scales better for damage. With the Improved Trip option, Ransuer is a no-brainer. Both can be backed up with putting Armour Spikes on your Mithral Chain Shirt for close range threatening.
I think you meant Guisarme; that's the trip reach weapon. The ranseur is the disarm one.
Also - Armor Spikes - good idea!
Duly noted, thank you.
I think you meant Guisarme; that's the trip reach weapon. The ranseur is the disarm one.
Also - Armor Spikes - good idea!
Whoops. Well, you understood what I meant, so I suppose no harm.