I have 90% of the details worked out, including feats, classes, race, prc. My problem is I'm having trouble running out of feats. Here's my solution and questions:
1) I'm trying to get the best damage/use from my bow, while being as stingy as possible with the feats needed. I need some advice on what path to take to maximize my sneak attack and bow damage (especially when used together). What is the best bow feat path for this purpose - keeping Sneak Attack in mind?
2) I'm trying to scrape up any other ways to gain feats. Can I give up a familiar for general feats?
3) Any other fine-tuning (not a complete rebuild) is definitely welcome (like better efficiency on the class dips, better alternate/variant features, etc.). Please keep the list of books I have in mind (see my spoiler link of books I own).
The next post will have many of the details of the build.
Primary goal: Mundane, then magical traveling specialist who gets into/out of places/things, and survives once there. Movement, travel, tactical movement, etc. Planar travel at high levels.
Seconday goals: Bow is primary weapon, including in melee. He also will fight evil outsiders at higher levels.
Here's the build (I haven't finalized which class will fall first, etc. - as this will depend heavily on the feats/skills/prc prerequisites). I suspect the fighter and EWM will come in the 10th level range.
Race Whisper Gnome
Rogue (1)
Ranger (1)
Fighter (1 or 2)
Mage (as needed for prc's)
Cloistered Cleric (1)
Exotic Weapon Master (1)
Unseen Seer (enough to qualify for AT, but as much as 5 lvl dip)
Arcane Trickster (the rest of the way)
Feats/prc's wanted with prereq's:
Ranged Threat (Dragon 350): Combat relexes, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BAB+6
Unseen Seer (Cmag): Hide 8 ranks, Search 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks,
Spot 8 ranks, able to cast arcane spells including 2 divination spells.
Arcane Trickster (DMG): Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7
ranks, Knowledge Arcana 4 ranks, able to cast mage hand and at least 1 arcane 3rd level or higher spell, 2d6 sneak attack, non lawful
Exotic Weapon Master (Cwar): Exotic Weapon prof, craft weaponsmithing 3 ranks, Weapon Focus
(requires +1 BAB).
Greater Many Shot (srd): Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Practiced Spellcaster (Cdiv) 1 or 2 times: Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Arcane Disciple (twice): Knowledge religion 4 ranks, spellcraft 4 ranks, able to cast arcane spells.
Travel Devotion (Cchamp): No prereq (but can sub a domain for it)
Urban Tracking: no prereq
Manyshot (to get Greather Manyshot): dex 17, point blank shot, rapid shot, BAB+6
Rapidshot (to get Manyshot): point blank shot
Track (free with ranger)
Possible tricks to get more feats:
1st level: Flaws (up to 2). Noncombatant, Vulnerable, or pathetic.
UA variant wizard substitute scribe scroll + wizard feats for bonus fighter feat at 1st level Wizard.
UA weapon Group feats (bow, exotic bow) ***requires BAB+1
Ranger level 1 = Track
level 2 = Wild Empathy, Rapid Shot
Fighter level 1 & 2 = 1 or 2 bonus fighter feats
Other possible stuff I will use, or am interested in using:
-Domain Wizard (UA) (put together my own Ranger/traveler type list or use existing one)
-UA variant wizard substitute scribe scroll + wizard feats for bonus fighter feats.
-Cloistered Cleric (UA) (adds knowledge domain, spells, and decipher script, speak language, and all knowledge as skills).
-Traits: Quick +10' movement/-1 hp per level, possibly others
-Possible Specialist Wizard Variant to gain abrupt jaunt, but lose Familiar. (probably not going to use)
Alternate Feats:
Divine Metamagic (Cdiv)? Ability to turn/rebuke undead.
Jack of all trades feat
Feat to do sneak attack to undead, etc.
Endurance feat.
-Voice of the City (Cityscape web enhancement) instead of Wild Empathy Ranger lvl 1.
-Wilderness Rogue instead of Rogue with (Cityscape web enhancement) skilled city dweller skill replacements.?
My problem is I'm having trouble running out of feats.
No problemo: Toughness x infinity.
In all seriousness: The price of swapping old feats for new ones - thanks fiendish codex 1. - Dark Chaos Feat Swap, DCFS, Abyssal Retraining, Shuffle It's in my sig.
If you're willing, there's a super-cheesy Monk variant, i.e. Martial Monk from DragMag, that can gain any feat without qualifying for the prereqs. It's a trick found by tsuyoshikentsu.
There's a Rogue variant from UA that exchanges the SA class feature for Fighter feats.
I think you're trying to go for too much at the same time. I would recommend you'd go Factotum/Chameleon.
One of the ten commandments of optimization is to not lose caster levels. If you're planning on spell-casting, don't lose out on casting levels.
You could obtain Plane Shift through item-crafting as Factotum/Chameleon.
I'm building as RAW as possible...
Here's solutions I don't want to be forced to do:
-2 ADDITIONAL levels Fighter for 1 more bonus feat (this will greatly impact spellcasting). Frankly, I'd rather have no levels in fighter.
-Swap chosen Domain for Travel Devotion (I don't want to do that - the domain structure I built is perfect for this build)
-take 1 less Arcane Disciple feat (I don't want to do that)
-Lose familiar for feat(s) (possible, but I don't know the rules on that). On the other hand familiar is pretty nice for this character type.
-Change race to Human (I'd lose Whisper Gnome darkvision + low light vision and other racial bonuses which are great for this build) to gain +1 feat.
-Take a level of a prc that grants an extra domain, then swap it for Travel Devotion (possible, but not optimal), instead of taking travel devotion as a feat.
Here's the feats math problem:
Total feats needed for main build: 8 fighter feats, 1 exotic weapon prof (great bow), other feats: 5
Total feats needed = (14)
Feats available:
-every 3rd = 6
-1st level = 1
-2 flaws at 1st = 2
-UA Wizard substitute fighter feat at 1st level = 1
-Ranger 2nd level (or fighter 1st level) = 1 fighter feat or gain Rapid shot
-2nd level of fighter = 1
-Exotic weapon using UA rules = 1
TOTAL = 13
No problemo: Toughness x infinity.
In all seriousness: The price of swapping old feats for new ones - thanks fiendish codex 1. - Dark Chaos Feat Swap, DCFS, Abyssal Retraining, Shuffle It's in my sig.
Sounds interesting, but if I swap feats at a later time using retraining, wouldn't that make the prc/other feats in the tree unusable if the prereq feat were changed? Generally all the feats I'm taking are prereq's for ability/prc/other feat tree.
OH LOOK! Hellbreaker's 10th-level class-feature is PLANE HOP.
Hellbreaker 1 gets an advanced form of Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) *cough*hideinyourownshadow*cough* and Telepathic Static for extra mechanical flava!
You could probably replace the need/want (what's the difference? You want/need everything in your build!) for the 'Endurance' feat with Horizon Walker 1 (OH LOOK! Another flavorfully fitting PrC). Rogue 3/Ranger 2 leads well into Horizon Walker, IIRC.
Another way to gain extra feats are magical locations (Complete Mage + ???).
Scout is another mechanically, flavorfully fitting class. Check out the combination of this class with the 'Hinder' feat from DragMag. Great combat debuffer.
Cleric using positive energy.
Domains: (Primarily for granted powers because only 1 level Cleric dip).
Knowledge (bonus gimme for Cloistered Cleric)
Celerity (+10 base movement)
Renewal (gives a contingency 1d8 + CHA modifier in healing if 0 to -10 hp once per day)
Arcane Disciple (for divine spell selection onto the Wiz list):
Healing (what self sufficient survivor arcane type wouldn't get this)
Liberation (Dieties and Demigods 3.5 upgraded version - not the Complete Divine version)
Liberation and Healing put very useful spells on the Arcane list for a survivor type. Removes, Cures, Heal, Break Enchantment, 7th level Refuge, etc. some of which can coupled with contingency for high levels.
Updated:
I'll wind up taking the travel domain instead of Renewal. Then swap the travel domain for travel devotion. Then use that freed up feat to get craft contingency. Much better solution, especially at higher levels.
Check out the player's guide to healing if you don't know about it.
The Divine Intercession feat from Drow of the Undarkdark lets you burn 3 turn attempts to dimension door (self only) at-will 30 ft. within Line-of-Sight. Prerequisite for the feat is Travel or Trickery domain.
As for the theme of the build, I recommend one of the Hell-... PrCs from Fiendish Codex II.
OH LOOK! Hellbreaker's 10th-level class-feature is PLANE HOP.
Hellbreaker 1 gets an advanced form of Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) *cough*hideinyourownshadow*cough* and Telepathic Static for extra mechanical flava!
You could probably replace the need/want (what's the difference? You want/need everything in your build!) for the 'Endurance' feat with Horizon Walker 1 (OH LOOK! Another flavorfully fitting PrC). Rogue 3/Ranger 2 leads well into Horizon Walker, IIRC.
Another way to gain extra feats are magical locations (Complete Mage + ???).
Scout is another mechanically, flavorfully fitting class. Check out the combination of this class with the 'Hinder' feat from DragMag. Great combat debuffer.
Good options... I'm pretty set on not rebuilding the character overall, though I am always open to the possibility if it is a great thing. A lot of those (scout, horizon walker, factotum, chameleon) have been looked deeply into and passed on... but... if by taking some scout, instead of say ranger/fighter/rogue would make the character more efficient, I'd be all ears.
The Wiz side of things is only for 2 reasons: 1) enhance the flavor (magical travel/versatility) - especially with the low/mid level spells, and 2) enhance the power from a more mundane build. I know this character can't compete against a straight caster build, but it is far superior to the mundane builds in many ways.
Flavor/power combined, think of this character as a magically enhanced bow using ranger/rogue, rather than a bow using thieving Wizard.
Sneak Attack will be a large part of the damage output when combined with bow. Ranged Threat also gives sneak attack by flanking out to 15'. Spells for invisibility, etc.
Overall, this build is not the best archer, not the best arcane, not the best rogue... but when all is combined (with wizard), it is a generally better archer than a straight archer (or at least solid), a better rogue than a straight rogue, and an okay spell caster (but not optimal).
I will definitly have to look at that fiendish codex material. I was looking for Hide-in-plain site, and Hellbreaker seems very interesting. Shadow dancer was the other option I was looking at.
Magical locations is a possibility. Would make for a nice story line - a quest for an Arcane traveler type to get that extra feat.
As a Whisper Gnome, you can gain access to Trivial Knowledge. Combine it with Knowledge Devotion.
Check out the player's guide to healing if you don't know about it.
The Divine Intercession feat from Drow of the Undarkdark lets you burn 3 turn attempts to dimension door (self only) at-will 30 ft. within Line-of-Sight. Prerequisite for the feat is Travel or Trickery domain.
Good ideas... thank you.
I also like the Planar Handbook prc's for planar travel and survivability - and may add one prc at high level.
The character is not a Wizard type. The wizard abilities are a means to an end: To make a better survivor/traveler/rogue/ranger type through the use of spells, and to enhance offensive/defensive capabilities to bring the power level up some. For example, the spells used would be spider climb, water breathing, freedom of movement, knock, fly, levitate, blink, invisibility, greater invisibility, haste, rope trick, arrow mind, hold person, illusions, expedious retreat, various travel related like teleport, etherealness, etc. All primarily geared to make the character a magical traveler, better thief, better at surviving planar/cold/underwater/fire, environments, etc. Greater invisibility would be coupled with his sneak attack for maximum damage with his bow for example.
The character is not a jack of all trades, nor a super diverse caster. It sounds like it, but there is only 1 main goal (and 2 sub goals), and all skills/abilities/spells, are geared toward that:
Getting into/out of places/things, and surviving once there, coupled with travel/tactical movement/magical travel. He will act as a long distance messenger/traveler/explorer/seeker/information gatherer/tracker/hunter.
Secondary goals = bow use as primary weapon (including melee); and fighting evil outsiders. The fighting evil outsiders is an needed extention to the planar travel thing. Once he travels to an evil plane, he needs to be able to survive encounters there, and any grudges that are held when he returns to his own plane at high levels.
I'm willing to lose upward spell power optimization to gain the needed flavor. Fighter is completely not a useful part of this build, but I needed it to gain the bow feats. Now,for example, if I can fix the bow feat tree (maybe there's a better tree when used with Sneak Attack), I'd gladly lose fighter entirely.
No problemo: Toughness x infinity.
In all seriousness: The price of swapping old feats for new ones - thanks fiendish codex 1. - Dark Chaos Feat Swap, DCFS, Abyssal Retraining, Shuffle It's in my sig.
If you're willing, there's a super-cheesy Monk variant, i.e. Martial Monk from DragMag, that can gain any feat without qualifying for the prereqs. It's a trick found by tsuyoshikentsu.
There's a Rogue variant from UA that exchanges the SA class feature for Fighter feats.
I think you're trying to go for too much at the same time. I would recommend you'd go Factotum/Chameleon.
One of the ten commandments of optimization is to not lose caster levels. If you're planning on spell-casting, don't lose out on casting levels.
You could obtain Plane Shift through item-crafting as Factotum/Chameleon.
That abysmal retraining trick might work perfectly... if I could use it to swap out say the Ranger's wild Empathy for a feat. Not sure I can do that though - good tip for me to look into.
I could see if there's a bloodline that grants the same feat as I've already received from a class I already have. It would cost a dip into a bloodline, but if the bloodline (UA) grants an ability you already have, I believe you get to swap it for a feat of your choice. But... that's still an extra 1 level dip, and I could also just as easily go 1 more Fighter or Ranger to get the final feat.
The character is not a Wizard type. The wizard abilities are a means to an end: To make a better survivor/traveler/rogue/ranger type through the use of spells, and to enhance offensive/defensive capabilities to bring the power level up some. For example, the spells used would be spider climb, water breathing, freedom of movement, knock, fly, levitate, blink, invisibility, greater invisibility, haste, rope trick, arrow mind, hold person, illusions, expedious retreat, various travel related like teleport, etherealness, etc. All primarily geared to make the character a magical traveler, better thief, better at surviving planar/cold/underwater/fire, environments, etc. Greater invisibility would be coupled with his sneak attack for maximum damage with his bow for example.
The character is not a jack of all trades, nor a super diverse caster. It sounds like it, but there is only 1 main goal (and 2 sub goals), and all skills/abilities/spells, are geared toward that:
Getting into/out of places/things, and surviving once there, coupled with travel/tactical movement/magical travel. He will act as a long distance messenger/traveler/explorer/seeker/information gatherer/tracker/hunter.
Secondary goals = bow use as primary weapon (including melee); and fighting evil outsiders. The fighting evil outsiders is an needed extention to the planar travel thing. Once he travels to an evil plane, he needs to be able to survive encounters there, and any grudges that are held when he returns to his own plane at high levels.
I'm willing to lose upward spell power optimization to gain the needed flavor. Fighter is completely not a useful part of this build, but I needed it to gain the bow feats. Now,for example, if I can fix the bow feat tree (maybe there's a better tree when used with Sneak Attack), I'd gladly lose fighter entirely.
Emphasis mine. That bit, combined with the preceding bit, made me chuckle a little. Okay, a lot.
The Wiz side of things is only for 2 reasons: 1) enhance the flavor (magical travel/versatility) - especially with the low/mid level spells, and 2) enhance the power from a more mundane build. I know this character can't compete against a straight caster build, but it is far superior to the mundane builds in many ways.
Flavor/power combined, think of this character as a magically enhanced bow using ranger/rogue, rather than a bow using thieving Wizard.
Sneak Attack will be a large part of the damage output when combined with bow. Ranged Threat also gives sneak attack by flanking out to 15'. Spells for invisibility, etc.
Overall, this build is not the best archer, not the best arcane, not the best rogue... but when all is combined (with wizard), it is a generally better archer than a straight archer (or at least solid), a better rogue than a straight rogue, and an okay spell caster (but not optimal).
Look, the point is, you have to face it in the end. Magic exists in DND and casters whoop mundane-ass. I'll break this down chronologically.
You say your build isn't a wizard-type, but uses wizard abilities as the means to an end. You say their use of magic is simply to further themselves toward a goal. All these things can be used to describe a caster-in-denial.
If there's anything that reading the book 'Promise of the Witch-King (2005)', by R.A. Salvatore, has taught me, it's that what you say can be true. If you check out the stats for Jarlaxle (otherwise claimed to be Drizz't), you'll be pleasantly surprised that he's Fighter 20 but still pulls out the magical stops like a caster.
The emphasis I placed inside the first quote goes to point out how your goal is to make what everyone else is making (generally... I mean, don't include Diplomancers, Pun-Pun and...). i.e. an adventurer! What have you described in the emphasized text that isn't something any player would say they aim their builds to be able to accomplish?
P.S. Did you mean to say 'abyssal'? Otherwise, I feel insulted! :P
Emphasis mine. That bit, combined with the preceding bit, made me chuckle a little. Okay, a lot.
Look, the point is, you have to face it in the end. Magic exists in DND and casters whoop mundane-ass. I'll break this down chronologically.
You say your build isn't a wizard-type, but uses wizard abilities as the means to an end. You say their use of magic is simply to further themselves toward a goal. All these things can be used to describe a caster-in-denial.
If there's anything that reading the book 'Promise of the Witch-King (2005)', by R.A. Salvatore, has taught me, it's that what you say can be true. If you check out the stats for Jarlaxle (otherwise claimed to be Drizz't), you'll be pleasantly surprised that he's Fighter 20 but still pulls out the magical stops like a caster.
The emphasis I placed inside the first quote goes to point out how your goal is to make what everyone else is making (generally... I mean, don't include Diplomancers, Pun-Pun and...). i.e. an adventurer! What have you described in the emphasized text that isn't something any player would say they aim their builds to be able to accomplish?
P.S. Did you mean to say 'abyssal'? Otherwise, I feel insulted! :P
Lol on the abyssal. TYpoo.
The post with the more detailed goals description wasn't specifically aimed at your posts, but rather just a more detailed explanation of what I'm going for.
I hear what you're saying as to the jack-of-all-trades vs. the description I provided... To make my intent more clear: I don't want to multi class. This build is really a one class, one prc combo that was never built by WoTC. Unfortunately, because they didn't do it, I had to be a jack-of-all-trades to get what I want for the character's flavor.
But, the wizard means to an end thing is something else. I mean, I would just as soon take a wizard spell book dealing only with Ranger/Rogue/travel type magical enhancements, some divination, etc., then have the full spellbook. Unfortunately there is no school/class that has that.
What I'm saying is want a traditional ranger build that is extremely magically enhanced primarily for flavor.
When I think "mundane" Ranger, I think: Survivor, traveler, get into-out-of, possible loner, caster of survival spells, who tends to use a bow.
My version is steroid Ranger: Survivor in any situation (including "weird" environments), traveler (mundane, magical, planar, different methods, tactical), possible loner (able to survive by himself solo adventuring aka healing, etc.), get into-out-of (add Rogue for mundane, add Wiz for magically protected areas), who tends to use a bow (add Rogue for SA, and Wiz to enhance bow use).
This should have been a 1 class, 1 prc build - as the concept in-and-of-itself is simple.
Yes adventurer, but not as general as it comes across in the build. If you were to create a demi-god of travel/survivability/get into/out of who uses a bow, how would you do it with existing WoTC material? I can't see it without Rogue skills. I can't see it without Ranger flavor. I can't get it without Wiz spells versatility which are the only set that really enhances the goal flavor. And Cleric, unfortunately has the really cool Domains right up the flavor alley along with some key survival spells (cure, remove disease, remove curse, remove paralysis, remove poison, etc.). So a 1 level Cleric dip was worth that.
Thank you for the good tips - they will definitely help.
If you were to create a demi-god of travel/survivability/get into/out of who uses a bow, how would you do it with existing WoTC material? I can't see it without Rogue skills. I can't see it without Ranger flavor. I can't get it without Wiz spells versatility which are the only set that really enhances the goal flavor. And Cleric, unfortunately has the really cool Domains right up the flavor alley along with some key survival spells (cure, remove disease, remove curse, remove paralysis, remove poison, etc.). So a 1 level Cleric dip was worth that.
Well, I'll have to admit. To create a 'demo-god of etc. etc.', you'd probably have to be epic, or close to it. That's the thing.
Example build: Factotum gets all class-skills. Max UMD for spell-versatility. Chameleon is perfect for item-crafting so you don't have to worry so much about buying items either. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
I'm making something like that, right now, as a matter of fact. I mean, a survival build. Otherworldly feat. Dragonfire Adept gets the useful Draconic Knowledge & Endure Exposure invocations, not ocunting all the other useful ones that fit the bill, like Aquatic Adaptation (to go underwater), Magic Insight (detect magic), See the Unseen (grants darkvision & see invisibility), etc. 3-level Swashbuckler-dip for Arcane Stunt ACF (Complete Mage) which can grant Expeditious Retreat as a swift-action-casted S-LA and at least +2 FORT, in terms of survivability enhancement. If I dip Monk, I get a boost to saves, Evasion at 2nd level and INT to AC combined with Kung fu Genius/Carmendine Monk. Factotum 3 grants INT to initiative. I'm rambling.
Look at Beguiler. That is a very straight forward 1 class build of a sneaky, skilled, roguish character who uses magic to enhance the "Charm" side of things. Build-wise, it's somewhat jack-of-all-trades. But it was an easy class to create without any prc dipping, etc. My only beef with Beguiler is the lack of Sneak Attack (if I remember correctly), and it's missing some key thieving spells. For the record I would build the beguiler using Rogue/Wiz/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster the rest of the way (to gain sneak attack and the missing spells). But I wouldn't need the blast spells, etc., etc.
Now, this Ranger type, would have been best done as a 1 class, or 1 class + 1 prc build (sort of like Ranger/Horizon Walker combo). It isn't too much more complicated (flavor wise) than beguiler. Unfortunately, the only way to get the flavor with the right spells, and still have some decent offense was to multi/multi/multi-class. Ranger/Horizon Walker is excellent flavor, but really mundane travel-wise. The end result after a ton of time working on it was an almost jack of all trades build, that happens to have all the right tools for the job. Unfortunately, I had to give up higher level spells to do it.
At this point, I can give up some nice flavored abilities (cleric domains, ranged threat, urban tracking), to gain upward spell power. But, I don't think I want to do that. I would, however, be interested in optimizing the feats/class abilities, so I can lose a level or two of fighter for example.
Sword of the Arcane Order feat. http://nihal.it.vu.nl/~pascal/DnD/Data/feats/f_875.html That was googled. I didn't actually expect to immediately find a fully transcribed version of it.
Well, I'll have to admit. To create a 'demo-god of etc. etc.', you'd probably have to be epic, or close to it. That's the thing.
Example build: Factotum gets all class-skills. Max UMD for spell-versatility. Chameleon is perfect for item-crafting so you don't have to worry so much about buying items either. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
I'm making something like that, right now, as a matter of fact. I mean, a survival build. Otherworldly feat. Dragonfire Adept gets the useful Draconic Knowledge & Endure Exposure invocations, not ocunting all the other useful ones that fit the bill, like Aquatic Adaptation (to go underwater), Magic Insight (detect magic), See the Unseen (grants darkvision & see invisibility), etc. 3-level Swashbuckler-dip for Arcane Stunt ACF (Complete Mage) which can grant Expeditious Retreat as a swift-action-casted S-LA and at least +2 FORT, in terms of survivability enhancement. If I dip Monk, I get a boost to saves, Evasion at 2nd level and INT to AC combined with Kung fu Genius/Carmendine Monk. Factotum 3 grants INT to initiative. I'm rambling.
Dragonfire Adept sounds very solid. I don't have the book, but read the WoTC website exerpt, and it sounds as close as anything I've seen for this character style build. I also believe there's some psionic builds that would have worked well, but I don't use those at the moment.
I should have mentioned this before, but this particular character will be starting and played at level 1, and working it's way up... epic possibly, and built with that in mind - but more importantly surviving from 1 up.
The thing that throws me off is being proficient (and deadly) with the bow, alongside being a magical traveler/survivor. The bow feats killed all my flavor feats, and it cost me multi-level dips into fighter/ranger. If I drop the bow use in melee, I can optimize better - then again, that wouldn't be the same character.
I definitely see the benefits of chameleon and factotum. Those were two of the first alternate solutions I was looking thoroughly into (chameleon thanks to suggestions on this board months ago). I also looked into an Arcane Hierophant build (that was my likely solution), until I recently stumbled onto this combo. This character has been like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole due to the inefficient build combos. A lot of combos kind of work (chameleon for example), and some combos (like straight Wizard even) can get what most of what I want. No one in their right mind would suggest this build for optimization... UNLESS you drop the bow specializing in melee (that frees up 2 fighter, and 1 exotic weapon master, and a number of feats), instantly making him a fairly powerful Wizard.
But this build's flavor is spot on + reasonable power. The trick with Wiz is leaving utility slots open. It sort of went back to this: Wizard can reproduce all of the important Rogue skills to basically better effect, so why take Rogue. But, I couldn't envision this character without the mundane Rogue skills - and for a minor Rogue dip, I could get Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster and get all Rogue + almost all Wiz capability. I could drop the melee bow, but I don't want to. So flavor won out over power.
Fighter on the other hand, was a last minute addition for feats so I could get both Arcane Disciple Domains, while keeping full bow progression. I'd gladly drop fighter (or Ranger, or both) if I still get what I want. They do add BAB and fort saves, which is desperately needed though. Heck, I'd drop 70% of the Wizard spell list, and 90% of the 1st level Cleric spells I'd have just to get the right feat combo.
For the record, one of the other characters I'll be building in the near future (for a different group) will be a generic jack-of-all-trades, most likely a factotum, or cloistered cleric (or both?) for the base.
Optimizing isn't my strength (due to my unfamiliarity with the material compared to longer players of 3.5).
I understand 100% about losing spellcasting being the #1 sin of optimization - this character won't be optimized in the traditional sense. But I would like to make him substantially powerful within the confines of his goals.
Here's one other thing to boggle the mind. While this character will semi-regularly interact with an odd 5 person party, much of his adventuring will be along side (or in conjunction with) my Beguiler type build (Rogue/Wiz/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster). These are almost identical builds, but the flavor will be quite a bit different.
Character 1 = traveling/surviving/getting into & out of magical Ranger type. He will specialize in long distance info gathering, getting messages to/from behind enemy lines, finding an important piece of info/tool, and eventually doing so across planar boundries. More of a loner, but worldly enough at diplomacy to accomplish the mission. At low levels he will rely on mundane skills and a few special abilities.
Character 2 = Wolf in sheep's clothing diplomacy/charmer type who will likely run/found his own mini-thieves guild. Non-beguiler Beguiler. He will specialize in local info gathering, acting as a "public face" for the party, running the underground black market type of activities in their neck of the woods, etc. Much more of a diplomat/people person, but wouldn't hesitate to rob you blind the minute you turn your back (or he compels you to).
2 very similar builds, 2 similar character styles, but 2 substantially different flavors.
I wish I would have seen that one months ago - would have saved me a ton of work
That is a really good one. My only question is... does the Wizard spellbook replace your ranger spells, or does it work along side them? In other words, can you chose Ranger spells and/or Wizard spells in your Ranger spell slots?
I'm not 100% sure how I would do that build, but if you could do Ranger + Wiz spells without multiclassing, that would be a really good flavor build for this character. It wouldn't be the most powerful, but combine it with a planar handbook prc, and some nice feats, a good race, possibly small Rogue dip at low level, and you have exactly what I was thinking when I started down this path.
...My only question is... does the Wizard spellbook replace your ranger spells, or does it work along side them? In other words, can you chose Ranger spells and/or Wizard spells in your Ranger spell slots?
You're able to cast both Ranger and Wizard spells.
Solution 1:
Swap Unseen Seer's Silent Spell metamagic bonus feat using the Fiendish Codex spells for about 5000gp to gain my 14th feat.
Build would be (not in order) 1 Rogue (or spell thief), 1 Ranger, 1 Fighter (or 1 extra Ranger), 1 Exotic Weapon Master, 1 Cloistered Cleric, all the rest Wiz, Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster. Sounds like an ugly build, but is very solid IMO.
This solution gives me 15th level Spell casting Wizard overall, so that is very solid. 14th level Wizard casting if I find a trick to gain enough feats to qualify for Shadowdancer 1 level dip for Hide-in-plain-site (requires Mobility and Dodge). (Probably not worth it).
I'd like to get a 15th feat before epic without dipping further into fighter to get Improved Familiar... or a 16th feat to gain Shadowcaster 1, or a 17th to gain Improved Familiar and Shadowcaster 1.
I haven't figured the math on this one out entirely, but... I could take a feat heavy Bloodline (like Major Vampire which grants 4 bonus feats including dodge). I can then use the bloodline instead of the 2 levels of fighter/ranger. Then use the Fiendish Codex spell trick to swap those bonus feats granted by the bloodline for Mobility, Track, and the 2 lost fighter feats. Then, take one level of Shadowdancer to get hide in plain sight. The drawback is losing BAB, fort save, and hp for the 3 levels of Bloodline. I think, with some major creativity, I can get to (not in order):
Cloistered Cleric 1,
Wiz 1,
Bloodline 1,
Wiz 1,
Rogue 1,
EWM 1
Bloodline 2 & 3,
Rest Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, and possible 1 level dip into shadow dancer.
The problem is the spell casting is majorly impacted, and sneak attack falls a die or so. Without shadow dancer, I'll have 14th level Wiz casting, or 13th level Wiz casting with shadow dancer 1. Plus it will cost around 15000 gp or so for the fiendish codex spells. I think I'll gain an extra feat for Improved Familiar. I'll lose the hp, fort save, BAB of two levels fighter or Ranger, but gain a major bloodline full of goodness. Overall, I lose out due to caster level minus 1, and lose out on 8th level spellcasting.
It frustrates me so that you are trying to do everything at once, still.
How to get Hide in plain sight? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1133381. At the time of this posting, this thread that I am linking dwelled on the second page of the CharOp forum...
Again, I'm also aiming for the same things you want in a character, but without the crap loads of dips. "It is only when we have nothing that we can do anything." I'm constantly filled with inner-conflict about how powerful I should aim for my character to be. The line between 'overpowered' and 'optimized' is thin.
For one thing, if you gain Hide in Plain Sight, you don't have to enter combat. You could max skill checks and try to avoid combat with 'Face'-skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc.) altogether.
/facepalm.
It frustrates me so that you are trying to do everything at once, still.
How to get Hide in plain sight? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1133381. At the time of this posting, this thread that I am linking dwelled on the second page of the CharOp forum...
Again, I'm also aiming for the same things you want in a character, but without the crap loads of dips. "It is only when we have nothing that we can do anything." I'm constantly filled with inner-conflict about how powerful I should aim for my character to be. The line between 'overpowered' and 'optimized' is thin.
For one thing, if you gain Hide in Plain Sight, you don't have to enter combat. You could max skill checks and try to avoid combat with 'Face'-skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc.) altogether.
Agreed pretty much all the way around. I don't think I'm going to take the 1 level dip for hide-in-plain site, but I haven't read your thread post yet. I'm just keeping that open as a possible #2 alternative if I can grab the extra feats somehow. (Mainly, because I don't want to drop my caster level any more, and a 1 level dip hurts my spell casting quite a bit). I'd rather have melee bow than hide in plain site for flavor and tactical. I've got enough spells to not need hide in plain site, but maybe I can still get it
I am, however, going to try my hardest to squeeze 1 more feat out of the character to get Improved Familiar. I was excited about, and looked at that Complete Mage location (Metamagic storm or something like that), and that won't quite work
I wouldn't allow the fiendish codex I spell feat swaps for it, because it's a temporary metamagic feat with limitations (in the same way I wouldn't allow the fiendish codex I spell feat swaps on class weapon proficiencies).Anyway, I'm really, really close - just down to a couple last pieces of the puzzle before I post the final build (and play it level 1 up). 1 more feat for Improved Familiar, and possible hide in plain site if I can get it (but a magic item or spells should work just fine in that case).
I need a class/prc with easy entry that grants Wiz spell progression at 1st (or 1st and 2nd) level, along with either an open fighter bonus feat, or feats that are on the list that I'm looking for (bow related, improved familiar, etc.). This prc/class can be taken at pretty much any level, so long as it doesn't have feat requirements beyond what I already have on my list.
Then I can (in theory) swap out a level of Fighter (hopefully in a 2 level dip), or Unseen Seer, and gain a final feat.
I'd rather find a prc or class that gives me a bonus feat at 1st level along with wiz spell progression. Even if the feat weren't the right one, I could use the fiendish codex swap to get the feat I actually need for about 5000 gp.
/facepalm.
It frustrates me so that you are trying to do everything at once, still.
Here's the thing though - I can get exactly what I want with this build I came up with without losing power. Powerwise there is no drawback at all, except BAB is weak, Fort is subpar, but at the same time I get everything I want. Granted, it won't be as powerful as a straight caster build. But it won't be limited either in the flavor directions I aim for (such as say a Chameleon build might be). But, I'll use the roleplaying side of things to specialize the character (by not adding those 750 extra spells to his spell book, etc.).
I know from a traditional optimization stand point, nobody builds like this (all spread thin in many classes). But when it's all said and done, and you lay it out on paper tallying up the stats along with the capability within flavor, it should be pretty impressive in power and versatility. Then using the characters own self limitations to specialize/narrow the focus, I can really flavor it to what I want.
I really like that last feat you found with the Ranger Arcane casting, and if I had that a couple months ago, that would have been the core of the build.
My goal with all characters I build: Get the flavor I want as much as possible, then "optimize" it to bring the power up within the flavor.
edit - found it - Complete Arcane pg 186-187
There are a number of legendary locations that provide a permanent bonus feat valued between 2000 and 6000gp per.
Then (if needed), you can use the fiendish codex I trick NiteCyper brought to my attention for around 5000 gp to swap out the feat.
Here's where it makes a big difference:
Extremely feat starved characters like this "build" may find value in spending 7000 gp and an adventure (for fun) to gain a feat. I will likely wind up doing it just for the Improved Familiar feat, but I might find something more worthwhile.
Better yet (here's where it may add a lot of value to this build), I can get rid of the 1 level fighter dip (which I only needed for the feat), and allow my caster/spells per day and sneak attack to increase (or even possibly allow me a dip into shadowdancer 1 by gaining qualifying feats to get the hide in plain site).
Another way to gain extra feats are magical locations (Complete Mage + ???).
Also, stop calling it 'site', it's 'sight'.
Also, stop calling it 'site', it's 'sight'.
Yeah, that magical location/legendary location will be the solution, and even add some fun into the game (aka: traveling ranger tracking down such location(s), and solving a difficult puzzle/dungeon/encounter to gain the benefit of that extra feat). It's not overpowering, particularly when you have to pay that extra amount to swap one feat for another using that fiendish codex I tip.
I design websites in my "spare" time, so everything is site now instead of sight :P