Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 08, 2006 18:52:58	The concept of sneak attack optimization in the context of Tome of Battle is obvious at the abstract level, however an actual optimized progression has been elusive to me, and I think many others. The Feral Assassin is my best attempt thus far. Optimization Objectives Maximize Attack Bonus & number of attacks Maximize Sneak Attack dice Incorporate a "guaranteed" Sneak Attack method by the time sneak attack is acquired in an appreciable quantity (2d6 sneak attack or more). Optimize Saves, HP, AC, and initiative for general combat effectiveness. Optimize for mid-levels (should bloom at 8-12th level); this is for practicality purposes.
#2 gaffer Dec 08, 2006 19:15:39	Quite nice. I was wondering when you were going to get around to making a Clarion sneak attacker. I was also wondering about the class progression. Given your convergence requirements, I can see why you opted for this route. I think this build really takes off at level 9, but the first 8 should be playable enough. A couple of +1 Shadow Hand daggers should make up for some of the BAB loss. Nice work, TG. Edit: If flaws are in, Able Learner would be nice so you could operate as the trapfinder.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2006 19:24:19	That's a fine piece of character you got there. Hey look! *yoink*
#4 taeldrin_laesrash Dec 08, 2006 19:29:43	You know, I recall you saying that you liked using Gloom Razor for auto-sneak attacking. (Would using both be any good?) That aside, If you're going for maximum auto-sneak attack damage and BAB, I'd suggest Rokugan Ninja 8/ Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3/ Ninja 8. BAB 20 and 8d6 SA, and a decent amount of skill points. Ninja could be replaced with the SA Fighter from UA, but seriously drop the skill points.
#5 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 08, 2006 21:03:34	I should also mention the following: This character can make an offhand attack at the end of a charge and can shift as a shifter 2/day (duration 3 + Con rnds). Hmm... I wonder what 9th level maneuver this build should get at 20th level? War Master's charge?
#6 radicaltaoist Dec 08, 2006 21:09:06	You can't get Time Stands Still? Next on your tactical feat exploiting builds, you should make a kalashtar who abuses Dancing with Shadows, Shards of Granite, and Stormguard Warrior.
#7 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 08, 2006 21:17:06	You can't get Time Stands Still? Next on your tactical feat exploiting builds, you should make a kalashtar who abuses Dancing with Shadows, Shards of Granite, and Stormguard Warrior. Shards of Granite? Meh... Overcoming DR isn't a big thing for me. Sure it can be a problem, but ToB tactical feats are somewhat feat intensive. Dancing with Shadows would mix fairly well with Shards of Granite, but the synergy is just not as potent as with Shock Trooper & Leap Attack. Now I could definately see the following combo work out pretty well: Spiked Chain + Thicket of Blades (DS2, S) + Dancing With Shadows (F) + Stormguard Warrior (F) + Combat Reflexes (F) + Power Attack (F) Essentially you turn the AoO crank, mix with channel the storm & fight the horde, all the while using dancing with shadows. Next round, power attack for the win.
#8 radicaltaoist Dec 08, 2006 21:21:34	Hey, can't you combo that with Combat Brute?!
#9 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 08, 2006 21:33:40	Hey, can't you combo that with Combat Brute?! Hm... why yes, of course you could -- if you've got the feats to burn. The bonus 50% power attack damage didn't seem worth the extra 2 feats needed for a combo which already requires 7 feats (Iron heart aura, path of shadows, stormguard warrior, dancing with shadows, combat reflexes, power attack, EWP (Spiked Chain). Incidentally it may be best to not use a spiked chain in favor of a guisarm + unnarmed strike or spiked armor build. Monk would get you combat reflexes for free, mix with fighter 2 for power attack and Martial Study (Devoted Spirit something, grab Martial Stance (thicket of blades), and the rest... It's still very feat intensive.
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2006 22:47:42	HP: 11d12 + 7d8 + 3d6 EDITED. I'm also fairly sure you can't get 21 HD in a 20 HD build. :p EDITED.
#11 GhostStepper Dec 08, 2006 22:57:47	Both swordsage and rogue are d6, and you're taking your first level as swordsage. Warlock is d12. What is BCM and NSE? Huh? Swordsage is d8, Warlock is d6 and BCM is Bloodclaw Master
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2006 23:00:47	Huh? Swordsage is d8, Warlock is d6 and BCM is Bloodclaw Master 1. Could've sworn Swordsage was d6. My bad. 2. I was referring to their hit die, not what their letters mean. The OP listed both PrCs by actual name, I was the one who supplied BCM for Bloodclaw Master. Edit: 3. I meant Warblade. Ugh... too much wine tonight. The 21 HD in a 20 HD build problem still stands, though... doesn't it? My math isn't THAT bad, is it?
#13 nekoryuu Dec 08, 2006 23:04:31	Your math looks fine to me, unusualsuspect. Maybe the OP made a typo...
#14 GhostStepper Dec 08, 2006 23:12:35	The 21 HD in a 20 HD build problem still stands, though... doesn't it? My math isn't THAT bad, is it? No, your right. Im sure its a typo. And BCM is d12.
#15 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 08, 2006 23:15:00	Oh jeez. Yeah, it was a typo. The OP has been edited. Should be 6d8 (3 from BCM + 1 from Nightsong + 2 from Swordsage) EDIT: Whoop! Those BCM levels are d12?! Excellent. Editing OP now
#16 wolfie-kun Dec 09, 2006 9:51:48	We need a PrC that gives SA and IL progression. Nice work as usual, TG. Have you any time to look at my new build on the compendium?
#17 gaffer Dec 09, 2006 12:31:08	I liked Visceral Dreadlord better :P
#18 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 09, 2006 13:23:13	I changed the name because it actually doesn't make any sense. Visceral means "related to viscera" or guts. So it be like the "gutty dreadlord". That doesn't really work. So I changed it to feral, which fits the shifter feel and still retains the eviscerating persona of the character. Anyways, anyone have thoughts on how to get weapon focus, shadow blade, and clarion commander by 9th level without going out phase AND without having crappy BAB early on? (by early on I mean by 9th level). My thought was: Warblade 4/Swordsage 1/Rogue 1/Warblade 1/SS 1/BCM 1 This delays shadow blade until 6th level, unfortunately, but you can get weapon finesse at 1st. Also allows the use of the warblade bonus feat for qualification of clarion commander. You have to wait until 10th level to get superior TWF, though. This one features swordsage levels that are in phase, which is attractive. If phasing is really important to you and you can afford a decent strength score to carry you through 6th level, then I think this is a good fit. Personally, I still favor the OP's method of getting dex to attack and damage ASAP and then getting clarion commander and superior TWF ASAP, while also managing to cram in 3d6 sneak attack by 9th level. Bottom-line: The OP's method sports the fastest convergance on the build's trick, while this alternative sports a superior phasing effect and a more elegant allocation of low level bonus feats. Tough choice for me. If I were in a campaign that played from level 6-12, I'd use the alternative. If were playing 1-20, I'd use the OP version.
#19 theone Dec 09, 2006 23:23:53	Crit Immune Creatures Common worry for those making sneak attack builds. You'll note that this guy is far from helpless against golems, undead, and the like. He can switch to island of blades (the other shadow hand stance that he has) and improve his chance of flanking his opponents. Once he accomplishes this, he gets full strength, dex, and intelligence to all his attacks. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a Rogue Variant Class Level that lets you do half SA damage to SA immune creatures so as long as you are flanking. You have to join some undead hunting group or something though.
#20 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 09, 2006 23:25:10	Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a Rogue Variant Class Level that lets you do half SA damage to SA immune creatures so as long as you are flanking. You have to join some undead hunting group or something though. Sounds excellent. Can it be gotten with only 3 levels of rogue?
#21 theone Dec 09, 2006 23:29:59	Yup:D
#22 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 17, 2006 20:08:00	Bumparoosky Any other thoughts?
#23 vylikas Dec 17, 2006 22:46:54	I've been toying around with a clarion commander sneaker myself ever since the dismal failure of my island of blades self-flanking sneak attacker. I'm glad to see that a lot of the ideas that I've considered were translated into this build, especially the expedition to castle ravenloft class feature, though I took a slightly different approach: with only one level of warblade, I took the minimum amount required to get clarion commander so that I could focus on sneak attack dice and have more skill points so that it could also work as the skillmonkey. In the end, the build exploded as I tried to cram in too many feats and by focusing on classes with SA dice, like Invisible Blade, I just could not get enough versatility into the character. Here are some suggestions I haven't seen appear: Skill Mastery (Intimidate) could allow you to get away with a lower intimidate rank (depending on modifiers) and still be able to successfully pull off clarion commander every single time. You could use a single level dip in Exemplar to pull it off. Staggering Strike will be a great addition to this build's feats (if you can stick it in somehow) One weakness you have not addressed is this build's weakness to enemies with Improved Uncanny Dodge who are immune to flanking. A possible solution is to get Robilar's Gambit, and at epic levels get Sneak Attack of Opportunity. This is not that much of a solution however, since you can only do so at level 21. You could try going into Invisible Blade for feints and yet another INT bonus to AC, but that requires too many feats and then you'd wind up in the mess I had with my mess of an attempt at a clarion commander sneak attacker (hehe it rhymes). Though I must add: getting the Invisible Blade's swift feint means that you don't need a blurstrike weapon to add sneak attack damage to that initial attack after the clarion command. If you could get a DM to knock off the point blank shot/far shot requirements it seems like it'd be a great synthesis... though then the build will have less powerful maneuvers. Kung Fu Genius will make INT even better (I'm only suggesting this because you listed it as the 2nd most important stat, but I get the feeling you want to keep it as an SAD build). My attempt at this build tried to shove in three levels of swashbuckler too (yeah, I know, ridiculous, right? :P) because I just didn't have enough feats (even with flaws) so I needed the free weapon finesse, and I was trying to crank out even more usefulness out of INT since I wanted the build to also be a viable skillmonkey. EDIT: I noticed you didn't put rogue as the first level for the nice x4 skill bonus. Is this because this would throw the martial adept phasing out of wack, or is it because the first two levels the character will be seriously crippled with a grand total of +0 BAB? What kind of maneuvers do you plan on lining up on this character though? I think those would make a big difference in determining whether or not levels of warblade can be sacrificed for improved sneak attack dice.
#24 tleilaxu_ghola Dec 17, 2006 23:01:57	That's the thing. You gotta stay focused on a few simple, yet powerful goals. Since the DC for clarion commander is fixed at 20, I don't think much optimization is needed. The feat is received at 9th level, by which time you should have 12 ranks. Grab the circlet of persuasion (4,500 gp) and you'll only need to roll a 5 or better. Alternatively, you could invest in the Crystal Mask of the Dread from the XPH, which grants a +10 compentance bonus on intimidate checks (for 10,000 gp). That would guarantee success. Or if your DM is nice, you could request a custom item of +8 competance to intimidate (which would cost 8,000 gp) and would fill the gap perfectly. Bottom-line: I don't think we need to sweat over the intimidate check. Anything which grants more sneak attack, dex synergy, or int synergy however is worth investigating. In this case, I'm not sure 3 levels of swashbuckler is completely worth it. Kung-fu genius, or its twin carmendine monk, may be a good option, but it would necessitate monk levels... something which kind of clogs up the whole build. One option that may be worth considering is Eternal Blade. When mixed with Grey elf it provides an excellent amount of int synergy. Unfortunately, elf pretty much destroys the build's multiclassing ability and feat progression.
#25 avalon_02_13 Jan 15, 2007 7:00:03	TG, I think that the swordsage IL is off by 1. There are 18 non-swordsage levels and 2 swordsage ones. Could you check the OP?
#26 friendlyfrog Jan 15, 2007 7:10:58	TG, I think that the swordsage IL is off by 1. There are 18 non-swordsage levels and 2 swordsage ones. Could you check the OP? Bloodclaw master, prestige classes that stack for initiator level do so for all martial adept classes you have.
#27 avalon_02_13 Jan 15, 2007 7:29:48	Oh. Thanks
#28 tleilaxu_ghola Jan 15, 2007 9:04:40	Yeah that's kind of non-intuitive, but I'm just following CustServ orders. Take a gander at the CustServ ToB Q&A thread (linked at the bottom of the first post in the ToB Tricks/Combos/Library thread) and you should find, amidst the chaos, the ruling I am following. If you don't like CustServ, then you could just count BCM as non-initiator levels, and as you noted it would reduce your overall SS level by 1 (or 2, I haven't actually checked).
#29 avalon_02_13 Jan 15, 2007 10:50:13	I thought the CustServ ruling pertained only to the MO9
#30 corzat_the_gray Feb 06, 2007 10:28:36	This build intrigues me, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend a maneuver progression to take advantage of it. I haven't worked with ToB too much, and what synergizes well with what is still eluding me.
#31 zombiegleemax Feb 06, 2007 13:27:49	...Or if your DM is nice, you could request a custom item of +8 competance to intimidate (which would cost 8,000 gp)... Not to pick nits, but it would actually cost 6400 (bonus squared x 100). ;)
#32 Khan_the_Destroyer Feb 06, 2007 13:41:30	Not to pick nits but... you have lice.
#33 corzat_the_gray Feb 07, 2007 17:38:07	Bumpin'
#34 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2007 18:55:23	It's a really nice build, T_G... poweful, versatile, and doesn't necessarily breaks the game. Kudos to you (whatever that means - it seems something good, howver. Me no speak england. ) I've always wondered if picking Clarion Commander would be worth it, and I'd reached the conclusion that spending one round is a little too much. However, it's a good alternative if you're fighting on your own and could not otherwise sneak attack your foe. It's obviously better to be used against foes with lots of hps. The thing is, your build isn't a one trick pony, and can use Clarion Commander whenever it's a better choice. I do, however, fail to see much advantage on picking BCM. For a character that focuses on Dex and Int, having full Str bonus to both hands doesn't seem that great to me. Offseting the penalties for 2wf is also somewhat mitigated by the loss of 1 BAB... that said, don't you think that perhaps picking 2 fighter levels would be better, considering the lack of spare feats? Maybe that would mean an IL of 16 (I'm not looking at the build right now)... but even then, maybe it could make the build viable earlier.
#35 corzat_the_gray Feb 07, 2007 22:26:42	I do, however, fail to see much advantage on picking BCM. For a character that focuses on Dex and Int, having full Str bonus to both hands doesn't seem that great to me. Offseting the penalties for 2wf is also somewhat mitigated by the loss of 1 BAB... Two words for you... Raging Mongoose. Allows two extra attacks per weapon you weild at highest BAB for the weapon. All the sudden we're dealing with how many attacks??? Hold on, I have to take my socks off to use my toes to count that high... Eleven attacks, if I'm not mistaken, and that's before we even start to use and abuse a weapon of speed or Haste. The fact we can use full STR is just icing on the cake after making that many attacks with the main stat being DEX because of Finesse and Shadowblade, and being able to apply Sneak Attack. But other than Raging Mongoose, what maneuvers would really make this build shine???
#36 tleilaxu_ghola Feb 08, 2007 0:03:20	Blood claw master is in there for a few of reasons: 1. 2 good saves, good HD, 2 maneuvers in 3 levels. 2. Special abilities can't be beat!: -STR to both weapons is nice for a character whose got more than just int/dex. If you're in a high powered campaign you'll appreciate the MAD support this character has. If you're in a low powered campaign you'll appreciate the SAD support the build has. -Shifting 2/day is handy. -Pouncing strike/charge is really nice Not to mention it also advances your swordsage IL, per CustServ.
#37 auxitius Feb 20, 2007 14:47:59	Very interesting character but I seem to have trouble selecting stances and maneuvers. What stance should I select at level 1? Island of Blades? Blood in the Water? If anyone can, I would like to see a breakdown of viable choices made from level 1 to 20.
#38 vylikas Feb 20, 2007 16:22:45	Very interesting character but I seem to have trouble selecting stances and maneuvers. What stance should I select at level 1? Island of Blades? Blood in the Water? If anyone can, I would like to see a breakdown of viable choices made from level 1 to 20. I would suggest Island of Blades. This build relies on flanking, and you don't always have the time to Clarion Commander everything you see. Plus, with Island of Blades active, you can add your dex bonus to damage from Shadow Blade. Though I suppose once you get Assassin's Stance, that might be preferable instead.
#39 auxitius Feb 20, 2007 16:41:40	I would suggest Island of Blades. This build relies on flanking, and you don't always have the time to Clarion Commander everything you see. Plus, with Island of Blades active, you can add your dex bonus to damage from Shadow Blade. Though I suppose once you get Assassin's Stance, that might be preferable instead. Thanks, have only first read through Tome of Battle and still find it a bit confusing. One question though, doesn't the Shadow Blade feat require you to wield a Shadow Hand discipline weapon for the 'dexterity modifier to damage' to apply? Wouldn't this be potentially problematic with the requirements given by the ability that grants you full strength damage with your offhand weapon, as it specifically calls for a Tiger Claw discipline weapon? As far as I can tell you also need to take a White Raven maneuver before you can select White Raven Defense, which you need to quality for the Clarion Commander feat, right? I should specialize as much as possible in the Tiger Claw discipline with my Warblade, correct?' Yeah okay...a bit more than one question :D
#40 avalon_02_13 Feb 20, 2007 17:26:51	That ability of the Bloodclaw Master requires you to either use a Tiger Claw discipline weapon or a dagger (which is a Shadow Hand weapon).
#41 auxitius Feb 20, 2007 18:19:33	That ability of the Bloodclaw Master requires you to either use a Tiger Claw discipline weapon or a dagger (which is a Shadow Hand weapon). It specifically says two daggers or Tiger Claw discipline weapon. Guess this build is destined to use two daggers then.
#42 ogreman Mar 03, 2007 22:49:20	Well, two daggers of course makes me think of Invisible Blade, although how you'd fit it in I don't know. That'd give you some more sneak attack, and Int to AC. Though IIRC, the prerequisite feats would make that kinda difficult. Maybe in a gestalt version.
#43 lordbob777 Mar 04, 2007 0:59:35	Ok, I dont know why but my search fu is drawing a blank Im having trouble locating the races desired for this build. Azurin - have no clue, sounds psionic Strong Heart Halfling - sounds like Faerun but I cant find it and Silverbrow Human - sounds like Races of the Dragon but I also cant find it. Any help EDIT: Silverbrow human is in Dragon Magic EDIT: And strongheart halfling is in Races of Faerun. What would be the advantages of being the halfling over the various humans?
#44 friendlyfrog Mar 04, 2007 3:53:46	Azurin is from Magic of Incarnum. Basically a Human that loses the bonus skill points, but gets a point of essentia instead.
#45 zombiegleemax Mar 04, 2007 7:50:27	Strongheart Halfling gets a bonus feat at level 1.
#46 lordbob777 Mar 04, 2007 12:02:31	Magic of Incarnum, one of the few books I do not own. Oh well
#47 arlith Mar 18, 2007 14:49:50	Since I am very rusty with sneak attack rules (having not played in a very long time, I'm a returning player).. on a full round, does this guy deal sneak attacks every hit? Also, is this build viable with handaxes (and thus can a Feral Dreadlord not take Shadow Hand weapon spec, but instead take Tiger Claw)? I'm thinking of building something kind of like this, and I'd like to use handaxes instead of kukris, shortswords, etc, really.
#48 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 18, 2007 14:55:51	Since I am very rusty with sneak attack rules (having not played in a very long time, I'm a returning player).. on a full round, does this guy deal sneak attacks every hit? Yes, you get sneak attacks every hit on the condition that for every hit you qualify for sneak attack. Since the victim is considered flanked for every hit, and you may sneak attack if your victim is considered flanked, you therefore sneak attack every hit. Also, is this build viable with handaxes (and thus can a Feral Dreadlord not take Shadow Hand weapon spec, but instead take Tiger Claw)? I'm thinking of building something kind of like this, and I'd like to use handaxes instead of kukris, shortswords, etc, really. No. Doing so would complete negate half of the point of the build, which is to create a build that is singly dependant on dexterity. That requires that you use daggers and only daggers. Now, you could completely redo the build with a strength focus and remove all traces of dex SAD. This would allow you the freedom to chose Tiger Claw weaponry. Really though, I see little advantage of hand-axes over daggers... at least mechanically.
#49 arlith Mar 18, 2007 15:06:03	I just like handaxes for flavor, I'm not sure why. Thanks for the ruling there, I appreciate it. Do you have any maneuver advice beyond maneuvers for prereqs? I've never made a ToB character ever, however much I pour over it.
#50 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 18, 2007 16:09:36	I was crafting a build very similar to this one for a campaign. This was the maneuver progression that I came up with for the first 11 levels: >>LINK<<
#51 khaim Mar 18, 2007 16:32:00	I was crafting a build very similar to this one for a campaign. This was the maneuver progression that I came up with for the first 11 levels: >>LINK<< That's very nice. One problem I see is that it doesn't really get going until level 9 or so. I was thinking of playing a character like this in a new campaign, but I think we're starting around level 6. Any suggestions?
#52 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 18, 2007 18:13:24	The build I linked was painstakingly optimized for 11th level and up. If you want to gear it for 6th level and up, it'd take a whole lot of re-working. The OP is geared for 9th level and up, but isn't too bad below that. Because of the SAD constraint and the Sneak Attack goal, I highly doubt you'll be able to get the build "going" at 6th level without some flaws.
#53 khaim Mar 18, 2007 18:35:59	The build I linked was painstakingly optimized for 11th level and up. If you want to gear it for 6th level and up, it'd take a whole lot of re-working. The OP is geared for 9th level and up, but isn't too bad below that. Because of the SAD constraint and the Sneak Attack goal, I highly doubt you'll be able to get the build "going" at 6th level without some flaws. Well, SAD isn't an absolute requirement for me. And if it doesn't work, that's okay, I'll figure something else.
#54 hand_of_vecna Mar 20, 2007 9:30:49	Awsome build I'm going to try it out. Though I think I found one small way to squek a little more power in. Instead of Nightsong Enforcer put in a level of fighter with the sneak attack and thug mods from that will give you +1d6 sneak attack a d10 hd and a point of BAB. I think the 1 hp on average and point of BAB is worth losing teamwork Switching 2 points of Base Save over to Fort from Reflex isn't necessarily a bad thing. Also it gets rid of the rp requirment of belonging to the nightsong guild.
#55 arlith Mar 20, 2007 21:45:12	In a build like this, I was considering also nixing the Nightsong level in favour of something else. I also wouldn't mind playing dangerous since I have a relatively decent modifier and equipment setup to offset my Will save loss - what can I take instead of Iron Will that would boost this build? Also, while I'm probably missing something important here.. if I do not want 9th level maneuvers (my goal isn't to play a maneuver user, really, so I'm looking for extra options here).. do I have to take all those levels of Warblade after 14th or 15th level? Can I take something else to make this build drastically different in some way? Could I take Swordsage instead if I have to play a martial adept class? Also, do punching daggers (katars, whatever you like to call them) work for all intents and purposes as daggers when it comes to the rules? I can gut the build and remake it, probably, but I'd like to get those questions across before I get to work. Again, this is a very powerful build that caught my attention rather quickly - and I'm quickly fascinated with the idea of playing it in my next campaign.. however, I'd like to see as much flexibility as possible in it so I can change things I may not like. PS: Have you ever considered a Deadly Percision weapon from Complete Adventurer for this build? I believe it works the way I think it does (an extra 2d6? damage in addition to every successful sneak attack would pump the damage in this build I think). I may be wrong, though, I glossed over it while looking at my options for weapon enhancements.
#56 daeger Mar 20, 2007 21:51:04	PS: Have you ever considered a Deadly Percision weapon from Complete Adventurer for this build? I believe it works the way I think it does (an extra 2d6? damage in addition to every successful sneak attack would pump the damage in this build I think). I may be wrong, though, I glossed over it while looking at my options for weapon enhancements. Deadly Precision is a horrible weapon enchant because it offers situational damage at the same price nonsituational damage is at. Think about it, you could grab two +1d6 enchants instead, completely unreliant on flanking or getting the drop on someone.
#57 arlith Mar 20, 2007 21:53:25	Deadly Precision is a horrible weapon enchant because it offers situational damage at the same price nonsituational damage is at. Think about it, you could grab two +1d6 enchants instead, completely unreliant on flanking or getting the drop on someone. Knew there was a catch. I just read it.. seeing as it's approaching too late for me to be awake, I didn't think over it too carefully. Thanks for the pointing out. I thankfully convinced my DM to let me start with a blurstrike weapon (he laughed when he realized what I was doing by glancing at my rough draft character sheet, actually). I get to start with 20,000gp worth of equipment, so I'm going to go wild with items that optimize the trick and other aspects of the build.
#58 hand_of_vecna Mar 21, 2007 6:52:58	I saw something in the third preview article for the magic item compendium the reprint of rouge's vest is on;y going to cost 18k it increases SA damage and fills a generally useless slot. Good for this build and I'm willing to bet it's gonna see alot of play in general. If you diverge from the warblade levels you won't get the awsome capstone of time stands still (extra full attack action in one round of an ancounter) you'd have to go much heavier into swordsage to get an equal benifit like ten more levels than the build has so basically gutting it. Could work but with fewer hitpoints clarion commander is harder to pull off on a BBEG cause it basically requires taking a round of attacks.
#59 arlith Mar 21, 2007 8:46:41	But theoretically, I could opt not to take all those Warblade levels later, right? It doesn't ruin the trick, etc?
#60 zombiegleemax Mar 21, 2007 12:54:20	If you don't take the late Warblade levels, it won't ruin the basic trick, no, but you won't get access to that 9th level maneuver (and there are a couple of really nice ones to pick from). I'm more interested in having a slightly higher strength and using a pair of keen kukris and Telling Blow rather than daggers and Shadow Blade. It ruins the SAD, but we tend to run high-powered campaigns anyway. If I'm doing that, Weap Finesse would still be a good investment so long as my Dex mod is higher than my Str mod, right?
#61 arlith Mar 21, 2007 16:39:23	I like those possibilities. I looked over Time Stands Still and it is honestly a very, very hard choice. What classes would I end up taking instead of Warblade levels? I'd likely end up taking flexible classes that modify sneak attack.
#62 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2007 10:45:14	It depends on what level you'd break from Warblade (which would in turn depend on what maneuvers you want) and what you want to do. Skillmonkey? Rogue or maybe factotum. More SA? Rogue, the Fighter variant from UA, or I can see a couple of levels in Assassin and/or a few more levels of Nightsong Enforcer. I, personally, would leave the Warblade levels in, though. If not for the maneuvers, think about this: this guy is an in-your-face, front-line combatent. Warblade offers the d12 for HP, and by dropping that by much (say, to Rogue for more SA) you're giving up some (possibly much-needed) staying power.
#63 Midnight_v May 19, 2008 21:23:59	bump !
#64 dead_weasel May 19, 2008 22:02:32	Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a Rogue Variant Class Level that lets you do half SA damage to SA immune creatures so as long as you are flanking. You have to join some undead hunting group or something though. Similar options, in order of convenience/power: Those two weapon crystals in the MIC. Penetrating Strike (DS, p 13): Lose trap sense. Whenever you sneak attack something normally immune to sneak attack damage, do half your normal dice of sneak attack damage. Death's Ruin (CC, p 51): Lose trapsense. Can use sneak-attack on undead, at one half normal. Holy Stalker (CC, p 51): Lose crippling strike as a special ability option. Add two points of damage per normal sneak attack dice when sneak attacking undead.
#65 Midnight_v Jul 27, 2008 14:59:16	Great tob build...
#66 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 24, 2008 17:56:32	bump
#67 grey_dragon Oct 16, 2008 23:49:20	I'm thinking about borrowing this build for my next character, and I thougt I'd get some expert opinions on a change I'm considering. Specifically, I was thinking of swapping the third level of Bloodclaw Master with a level of Barbarian (Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy variants). Whirling Frenzy seems better than the extra use of Shifting, and Pounce is obviously vastly superior to Pouncing Strike when charging. In return, you lose one maneuver known, one maneuver readied, and one initiator level, as well as Pouncing Strike's benefit of making two attacks with a standard action. Assuming that multiclass XP penalties are not being enforced, might this be a favorable trade?
#68 Midnight_v Nov 24, 2008 20:45:01	Man, this is one of my favorite builds,...:D
#69 Endarire Jun 03, 2009 11:52:43	Bump o' the mornin' t' y'!
#70 corzat_the_gray Jul 03, 2009 8:17:32	Bump This is too good to not have floating around on the board... I've been playing a character based on this, though toned down to be more in line with the other players in the group, and he has still torn through just about anything we've faced. Cheers on this build!
#71 koudanshi Jul 11, 2009 14:30:09	Sorry for the necro, but I was looking for some advice. I dunno if this is the right forum to ask for it since it's related to (please don't hurt me) Pathfinder, but we're playing a Level 20 Pathfinder game which, of course, grants you quite a bit of extra feats and a 'Rogue Talent' on level 2. And all regular 3.5 D&D classes are allowed. So I came up with this feat tree: 1 Shadow Blade 1 Two-Weapon Fighting 3 Combat Reflexes 5 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 7 White Raven Defense 9 Clarion Commander 11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 13 Craven 15 Ironheart Aura 17 Stormguard Warrior 19 Robilar's Gambit The Rogue Talent grants the character the Weapon Finesse feat; Warblade feats are Improved Initiative and Quickdraw. Any better suggestions I could go with? So far I've pretty much added great AoO enhancements which will ultimately, after my first turn, allow me to use Sneak Attack on my opponent much more often thanks to Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit. Not to mention that I can use AoD a lot already even if I'm not attacked since this is primarily dex-based. Also, if I have trouble hitting an opponent I can forego my AoOs with Stormguard Warrior and get a huge bonus on attack and a decent one on damage. And if I REALLY have trouble hitting someone I can combine it with Combat Rythm. I lose Iron Will, but I'll just have to buy some items to compensate for that, I guess.
#72 Senevri Jul 12, 2009 12:40:04	I've found Combat Rhythm to be a bit cumbersome in practice.... Never-the-less, I am very fond the Feral Dreadlord in general. I'm not entirely sure, but check if you can help your feat-dependency issues by picking more Rogue levels? Rogue Talents are quite nice for that. (f.ex, combat reflexes is available via Rogue Talents. IIRPFC) However, that may cause BAB or IL issues.