I am trying to optimize my favorite class, the fighter. This is my my first time optimizing in D&D. I am using 3.5 rules and all the books I have available from it. Idk how to optimize weapons and armor yet, since my old DM was terrible with making lasting campaigns, but I think I have the best race and feats picked out:
Dragonborn Fighter-
The main goal is to be tanky with a side goal being able to pump out lots of damage without giving up much tank potential, Dragonborn get a breath weapon that pumps out crazy damage late and is pretty strong early, they also get a bonus to Con which is great and a dex penalty, but dex is a dump stat for tanks since heavy armor pretty much negates dex mod bonus to AC.
Chain Mail/Tower Shiled, Flail-
The low level Dragonborn can't use his breath to cover much distance so you need to wear light armor to make up that distance. once you hit Lv.4-6, then jump straight into full plate armor. Tower shield might reduce your accuracy, but that accuracy loss will be cover by the time you reach level 8 without problem, and that AC bonus is just amazing. The Flail is just awesome IMO. Granted it won't do the most bust damage, but this build capitalizes on Prone via Trips, shaken debuff via Frightful Presence, and AoO from Riposte, defensive stance, and general gameplay, so anything to help those 3 things is great (just in case someone does not know, you can trip with the flail with no penalty to your trip attempt). I would mention enchantments and masterworks and such but idk what things of that sort i need atm, so I am open to suggestions XD
Feats-
Ok, my feats have one main goal, be a unstopable force, expecially 1v1. I do this by tanking all the damage that could come my way, bashing every enemy around me with an AoO, and triping people so I cam bash their face in and in turn shake the enemies up to repeat the process. All these feats, as far as I can tell, help me in this endeavor:
1- Weapon Focus/ Lv.1 F
2- Improved Toughness/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Improved Trip/ Lv.3
5- Weapon Specialization/ Lv.4 F
6- Frightful Presence/ Lv.6
7- Riposte/ Lv. 6 F
8- Melee Weapon Mastery/ Lv.8 F
9- Greater Weapon Focus/ Lv.9
10- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.10 F
11- Greater Weapon Specialization/ Lv.12 F
12- Sense Weakness/ Lv.12
13- Improved Initiative/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Improved Combat Expertise/ Lv.16 F
16- Supperior Initiative/ Lv.18 F
17- Improved Combat Reflexes/ Lv.18
18- ???
The last one is blank cause its circumstantial. Every campain is different, so you might need different feats.
A Disclaimer-
I am not saying this is the best fighter NA. In all honesty idk how well he will do as of yet. He might suck, I think he will rule but i coud be wrong. In my mind it all seems solid, but I am more than open to critisism. I hope to hear feedback asap and I promise to listen to it all 
Hello and welcome!
You're head's in the right space, by and large. You're locking on to reasonably effective tactics and spotting some good synergies in there. However, several of the choices you've made can still be improved. I'm going to concentrate on the latter here.
First, you're going to want to drop the shield and get Power Attack in there. Most of the damage you will deal in melee comes from Power Attack. Consider this: A fighter doing their job will have accuracy to spare (i.e. +12 attack bonus against people with AC 16 or so, to make up numbers for an example). You'll see this a lot more with prone targets (and, if you want to focus on AoOs, with Deft Opportunist). Power Attack lets you convert that bonus accuracy into bonus damage, and it does so most efficiently for two-handed weapons. Using a shield precludes this most of the time, unless you want to waste time in battle removing your shield every time.
Second, there's a lot of feats on there that are just not that good - the entire weapon focus / weapon spec line is usually only useful for prerequisites, Riposte is nifty but eats up your immediate action, Combat Reflexes is kind of late, and Sense Weakness is just plain bad. Contrariwise, there are several feats missing that would normally be central to this sort of style - Deft Opportunist, Robilar's Gambit, and Overpowering Attack (the PHB2 alternate class feature) come to mind. Not to mention the entire Tome of Battle being a gamechanger, even for pure Fighters (i.e. through feats like Stormguard Warrior or Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades).
I'd suggest reading about similar fighter builds - Snow Savant's Gatling Chaingun, Caelic's Jack B. Quick*, Aelryinth's Lockdown and my Pinball Brothers are good examples - and the basic "tanking" guide I wrote here (click in the spoiler block - "tanking" in D&D is VERY different from what you've probably got in mind.). I'll also ask what level you're starting at and whether options other than pure Fighter (for instance, Fighter/Warblade) would be on the table, since quite frankly the Fighter isn't very good at Fighting (though it can sometimes help get things off the ground faster, it's never a good choice for your defining build class).
*Note that Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit do not actually stack together, as per clarifications that have come out since this build. The core idea's still solid though, and Karmic Strike is available much sooner than the (better) Robilar's.
I notice you have feats on all odd levels, in 3.5 this is not the case. You get a feat at 1, again at 3, and then at 6, and every 3 levels thereafter until 18 (or higher, if going epic). Fighters do get feats at 1, 2, 4 and every even numbered level thereafter.
As Tempest mentions Karmic Strike can come online before Robilar's, but if retraining is an option (since it comes in the same book as Robilar's) you're free to retrain Karmic Strike, and then some of its prerequisites, once you have Robilar's online.
The Breath Weapon thing isn't nearly as good as you might think. You're falling victim to the classic "ooo lots of big dice" trap, it is a lot of random damage sure, but do the math on the average (d6=3.5, 38=4.5) and compare to a greatsword dealing 2d6+Str*1.5(Probably about 18)+Power Attack*2 (PA for 5 is probably 10 damage), you're getting at least 35 damage PER swing, and at least 4 swings starting at level 16. That's without really optimal Power Attack feats or damage multipliers, that's without a magic weapon or any other feats that add damage.
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
And when you're not going to potentially hit allies as well!
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
Yep, my bad, appologies. It's not the way I'm used to seing feats listed.
well I updated the build, but the main thing this build is ment to do is tank while dealing out conistent dagame to all the enemies he has aggro on so the damage dealers can execute them. Bwt, I did take out the weapon feats and the sense weakness and put in karmic strike and deft hands along with a few other feats and pushed up the reflexes and expertise:
1- Combat Expertise/ Lv.1 F
2- Improved Toughness/ Lv.1
3- Improved Trip/ Lv.2 F
4- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.3
5- Dodge/ Lv.4 F
6- Karmic Strike/ Lv.6
7- Riposte/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Frightful Presence/ Lv.9
10- Improved Combat Expertise/ Lv.10 F
11- Armor Specialization (Heavy)/ Lv.12 F
12- Deft opportunist/ Lv.12
13- Heavy Armor Optimization/ Lv.14 F
14- Improved Combat Reflexes/ Lv.15
15- Greater Heavy Armor Optimization/ Lv.16 F
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
Again, this is very open to suggestions, from different order to new feats. The only reason power atk is not there is because I woud rather make that another build entrely, which I will post up sooner or later.
Also, the race I use is not required, its just the one I like most. If you don't like the breath weapon thats fine. I know its not godyly but it definatly my favorite, wings making a close second thou.
*EDIT* I think I just found my favorite race and class for this that is nor circumstantial. Neanderthal! +2 str and con, -2 dex and int. You don't need to be smart to kill and tank! XD BWT they also get natural weapon focus on the tigerbone club. Same damage as the Flail, witha plus 2 on trip rolls and x4 crit! Only downside is illiteracy and general dumbness, but that can be worked around. I managed to work around it for barbarians after all XD
You do, on the other hand, need Dex to capitalize at all on Combat Reflexes, as well as a pre-requisite for several other feats in your build, and Int to get Combat Expertise and associated feats, unless you're going to take a Barbarian dip, which doesn't seem like it's in the spirit of your post to begin with. You say that you want to focus on dealing consistent damage, and, now that I think about it, you will with this build. The issue is, that consistent damage will be low damage without power attack, even with a hefty strength bonus and as high an enhancement bonus as is feasible for your level.
As for what weapon you'd be best off with, you'd be significantly better off using a guisarme, which you can use to trip, and is also a reach weapon. Unless you've got the stance Thicket of Blades or the feat Hold the Line, you're unlikely to be making any attacks of opportunity with just your natural reach unless you're using a large race, and even then, you'd be significantly better off with the same reach weapon. The weapon focus may be attractive for that extra bit of accuracy, but it's not as good a weapon as you think for "tanking".
As was mentioned above, this sort of build would likely be better served by Robilar's Gambit than Karmic Strike, and neither one does much for you unless you can seriously punish those who attack you. Tripping is certainly a start, but once that enemy's tripped and you get your followup attack with Improved Trip, all it's going to do is tickle a bit. This really feeds into the "You need Power Attack" argument, or at the very least, some other source of moderate to high damage.
I'm not terribly familiar with the Armor specialization/optimization feats, myself, but they really don't seem to be worth the feat slots, especially as late as you've got them coming online. 2 DR isn't very much, certainly not enough to warrant a feat slot, in my opinion. As well, you don't choose a "weight" of armor, so to speak. You can't just choose "Heavy" armor, you have to select, for example, Full Plate. The (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization feats apply to all heavy armors, on the other hand. That being said, While together they provide a higher bonus than Dodge, they don't provide much. You'd likely be better server by feats such as Mage Slayer, and potentially Blind Fight and Pierce Magical Concealment.
I don't have too much to add, at the moment, as I'm away from my books, but I hope that that's at least been a little helpful.
Basically Thicket of Blades (Stance, from Tome of Battle), Stand Still, and Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, is the combo most effective at "tanking" you still need to have a way to get the bad guys to you, so this means standing in front and or having your allies help get them to you.
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
Well You only need 13 dex and int, but I tweeked it again so that the penalty to dex in null for AoO:
1- Combat Expertise/ Lv.1 F
2- Improved Toughness/ Lv.1
3- Improved Trip/ Lv.2 F
4- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.3
5- Power Attack/ Lv.4 F
6- Improved Combat Reflexes/ Lv.6
7- Riposte/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Frightful Presence/ Lv.9
10- Improved Combat Expertise/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Deft opportunist/ Lv.12
13- ???/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- ???/ Lv.16 F
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- ???/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
at this point I have exausted all of the good looking fighter feats cause you all said they all are bad, so idk what to put in the latter levels.
and just so we are clear, no reach weapons cause you have to be standing away from them to use them, no two handed weapons cause I need a shiekd, so no spiked chain.
I'd also like to note that "tanking" doesn't mean "sitting there like a wall of meat in a suit of heavy armor, and soaking up hits". A tank means you protect your friends and survive what comes your way. If you happen to have AC so high nothing will hit you, HP so high that it'll take a long time to take you out, and saves so high you shrug off most things that would try to hit you, then you're sending one message to your enemies: ignore me, and go for the squishies. If foes are ignoring the tank, he's not doing his job.
Furthermore, scratch damage that hits every time isn't actually very reliable - because enemies fight as well at 1 HP as they do at full HP, damage that doesn't incapacitate the target (or that doesn't reduce the target to the point where they will be incapacitated before their next turn) may as well not be dealt. I know Power Attack looks like it reduces your accuracy, but if you've got full base attack and are keeping up with your Strength and equipment, it really doesn't, at least not by any appreciable degree. In those cases, you'll hit with "accuracy to spare" (particularly if you're using things like Deft Opportunist or attacking prone targets - that's +8 to hit that's going to waste if you would have hit without it!), and Power Attack lets you funnel it into extra damage, which ends the target sooner - and thus protects your team better.
In terms of the build, I would drop armor optimization and riposte (Riposte takes an immediate action, and most of the equipment you'll want to use requires your swift action to be free) in favor of Robilar's Gambit (retrain Karmic Strike at this level) and Overpowering Attack (the substitution feature). If you can squeeze it in, Stormguard Warrior (a feat in the Tome of Battle; it doesn't require warblade levels or anything, though those certainly help) is a spectacular choice, as it gives you immense flexibility with your AoOs.
Secondly, Improved Combat Expertise is nearly useless - having a high AC is meaningless in most builds, particularly once non-AC defenses like miss chances and counters come into play. The only case where it really "works" is if you're using Dancing with Shadows, a kalashtar racial feat based around Combat Expertise. (See the Edge of the Light build in my signature for how this works - it's quite workable in Fighter 20, though the skill requirement is annoying.)
Also, Improved Combat Reflexes is a third-party feat. It's awesome to the point of being broken in most builds that would be trying for it, since it gives you multiple strikes for each single provoke.
EDIT: Reach weapons are much more badass than you think they are, since they let you threaten a much larger area - and if a target tries to get close to you, they provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square. When your turn comes around, you just 5' step back and they're threatened again.
Additionally, you really do not want a shield. It's possible to make a shield useful, but not anywhere near as useful as, say, reach or two-handed bonus damage can be. For example, we have a shield-user in one of our games, but she uses White Raven strikes (which deal big bonus damage, but that damage doesn't change if you're using the wepon one-handed), has a massive Inspire Courage bonus (which also provides equal bonuses for one- or two-handers), and makes adept use of bard wands (meaning the shield can be fitted with a second wand chamber, while a two-handed weapon could only hold one). If you're not taking lengths like this, a two-hander will always be better, even for defense - after all, if you kill the opponent one round earlier, you, in effect, protected yourself and your team from the damage your foe would have dealt that round!
Yeah, Power Attack is one of the only ways to reliably leverage a high base attack bonus into making a meaningful impact on a given encounter. This is in large part because the extra iterative attacks afforded by a high BAB are 1) only available on a full attack and 2) made at such a severe penalty that they generally miss anyway. Most of the damage you do, especially if you're doing your tanking job right - which will include moving to the most advantageous location each round - will be from your primary attack and your AoOs, which are all made at your highest bonus. By means of intelligent use of Power Attack, you can maximize your statistically expected damage output.
Also, Improved Combat Reflexes was a Dragon mag feat, issue #340.
1- Combat Expertise/ Lv.1 F
2- Improved Toughness/ Lv.1
3- Improved Trip/ Lv.2 F
4- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.3
5- Power Attack/ Lv.4 F
6- Improved Combat Reflexes/ Lv.6
7- Dodge/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Karmic Strike/ Lv.9
10- ???/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Deft opportunist/ Lv.12
13- ???/ Lv.14 F
14- Stand Still/ Lv.15
15- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.16 F
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- ???/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
ok just edit it yourself. I am just switching to a paladin now cause you all keep suggesting non fighter feats and generally my build idea is trash apparently.
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
meh, tbh I was forced to play paladin yesterday and I liked it alot, so thats the reason I specifically said paladin, but I only said all that cause I have been stressed this week and pretty much everything I have putting out has seem to get lots of riticule and little praise so I just snapped XP
Bwt tweeking the build atm with some ideas I had while at work. putting stand still up at the front to allow me to keep enemies on me and away from the other allies. Other tweeks I will be working on based on vairous things including this guide.
Don't feel bad, man. The books basically lie to you about what things are good. (I'm not exaggerating. There is a splatbook, Complete Mage, that devotes an entire chapter to wrong and often actively harmful advice.) With that thought firmly in mind, just take your time and we'll work with you to get a warrior worth writing up, capable of whomping the opposition.
So, the most important feats you're looking at early on are Combat Reflexes, Stand Still or Improved Trip, and Power Attack. Now, since Improved Trip has that annoying Combat Expertise + Int 13 prerequisite, I usually recommend that people go with Stand Still. I find it generally more reliable, to be honest, and it requires fewer other feats to get going. It boils down to a stylistic choice, though.
All three tanky options (Improved Trip, Stand Still, and Knockback) are viable and vastly entertaining. I'm currently running a campaign wherein one of my friends is playing a Knockback focused character who sends any enemy foolish enough to approach flying backward into nearby walls. It leads to much laughter at the table, and because of him not a one of the weaker characters has even once taken melee damage.
here is what I have thus far. Note that I switched the race to human for the extra feat:
H- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)/ *
1- Combat Reflexes/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Deft Opportunist/ Lv.3
5- Improved Trip/ Lv.4 F
6- Frightful Presense/ Lv.6
7- Power Attack/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Mage Slayer/ Lv.9
10- ???/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Leap Attack/ Lv.12
13- ???/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- ???/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
some feats I can't get cause they need ironheart and other things only crusaders and warforged get.
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
H- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)/ *
1- Combat Reflexes/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Deft Opportunist/ Lv.3
5- Improved Trip/ Lv.4 F
6- Frightful Presense/ Lv.6
7- Power Attack/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Mage Slayer/ Lv.9
10- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Leap Attack/ Lv.12
13- Shock Trooper/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- ???/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
Well I am probably gonna leave the last few open just in cause I need a random feat for specific campain setting. Bwt that should cover it.
I do wanna note that I have a non human alternate but it does not use the chain. I really wanna try both out and see which works better for me.
1- Combat Reflexes/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Deft Opportunist/ Lv.3
5- Improved Trip/ Lv.4 F
6- Frightful Presence/ Lv.6
7- Power Attack/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Initiative/ Lv.8 F
9- Mage Slayer/ Lv.9
10- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Knock-Down/ Lv.12
13- Shock Tropper/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- ???/ Lv.18 F
17- ???/ Lv.18
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
18- ???/ Lv.20 F
Its the neanderthal using a tigerskull club. I really like the race and weapon, but I will admit that the spiked chain is op XD
I second the suggestion of Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, because sometimes you really just need to kill something right now. And fitting in the two feats to get access to Thicket of Blades is highly, highly recommended.
The following feats are really good, directly with no prereqs (other than feats already also on this list)
Stand Still: Lets you prevent enemy movement, crucial to "tanking"
Combat Reflexes: Makes sure you've got AOO's when you need them, not just 1/round, crucial to making good use of Stand Still and even useful without it
Power Attack: Lets you turn +X attack or -X AC (on enemy) into +Y damage. This is useful for ANY melee character pretty much (with a few very strange exceptions)
Robilar's Gambit: They hit you, you hit em back, probably a LOT harder (see Power Attack), it's a no brainer
EWP (Spiked Chain): NOT the best weapon in the game for damage, but pretty well the gold standard for threatened area.
Leap Attack: More damage when charging is good, this is especially good when combined with abilities or spells that grant pounce and or with abilities or items that multiply charge damage (Headlong Rush)
The following feats are really good, but have you sink cost into other, less awesome feats (Trick with these is often to take them at even level normal feat levels (EG 6 or 12) so you can pay the cost and get the benefit AT the same time. Alternatively, you may do something like level 9 and 10 for Martial Study/Martial Stance as level 12 is the best time to get RG online
Shock Trooper: This puts Power Attack into overdrive if you're charging, it sadly costs two feats as Improved Bull Rush will seldom be useful.
Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades): This really helps to make Stand Still even more reliable, sinking the feat into Martial Study (Devoted Spirit maneuver) is kind of wasted, but once in a while it may help.
Pierce Magical Concealment: One of the only reasons at all to bother with Mage Slayer, this feat helps a lot when dealing with invisible things that used magic to get that way.
The following feats are alright, they have some use and or synergy, and make good "filler" when you don't yet qualify for one of the above, already have them all, or just want something for timing purposes
Improved Initiative: Going first may just mean going last, this is more true of DPS, lockdown or SOBS builds than it is of a tank.
Blind Fight: Seriously, missing is terrible, missing regardless of AC, doubly so.
Defensive Sweep: Getting to hit people that don't move is good, it is almost like Improved Trip (Converts your spent attack, into an attack) for Stand Still.
Overwhelming Assault: Bonus's to hit translate into damage if they're in excess of what you need, this can be a big bonus (it makes Weapon Focus look just plain BAD)
H- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)/ *
1- Combat Reflexes/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Deft Opportunist/ Lv.3
5- Improved Trip/ Lv.4 F
6- Frightful Presense/ Lv.6
7- Power Attack/ Lv. 6 F
8- Blind-Fight/ Lv.8 F
9- Mage Slayer/ Lv.9
10- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Leap Attack/ Lv.12
13- Shock Trooper/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- Martial Study(Devouted Spirit)/ Lv.18 F
17- Pierce Magical Concealment/Lv.18
18- Martial Stance( Thicket Of Blades)/ Lv.20 F
may need to work on the order but other than that its done
Looks pretty good.
Well, except for one thing: Frightful Presence. As I recall, the save DC for that feat is based on Charisma, which will almost assuredly not be your primary focus for improvement. As such, the likelihood that it will actually work is low. Further, it only works against enemies with fewer hit dice than you, and you should already be able to mop the floor with such enemies anyway. It offers no benefit whatsoever against the enemies that pose the greatest threat; i.e., the dragons and bosses of the D&D world. I'd drop the feat (or move it to level 20) and adjust your feat order to get Shock Trooper or Martial Stance earlier.
But yeah, as I said, your feat selections are looking good. It's just a matter of getting them in the most advantageous order.
Listed by level in priority order I would run this as follows
1 Combat Reflexes, Stand Still*H, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)*F At this levle you're starting to tank, you figured this out already
2 Blind Fight*F Missing sucks, and there's not a lot of better options at this level
3 Mage Slayer Not fantastic, but this character's NOT a spell caster at all, and later we'll see use of this
4 Improved Bull Rush*F Ahh prerequisite feats, this makes 2-5 feel like a dead patch sadly
6 Leap Attack, Shock Trooper*F BOOM SHACKALAKA! Now you can't just tank, you can hit!
8 Martial Study (Foehammer)*F DR and can't charge right now? OK, this will help.
9 Pierce Magical Concealment I can see you, and so can everyone else!
10 Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)*F Tanky goodness now achieved (as early as possible), there is no avoiding the stop hits.
12 Improved Initiative, Robilar's Gambit*F Now you charge, you hit hard, and you hit BACK if they try to punish you for using Shock Trooper
I don't know that you actually have to be Human to make this work. By level 12 all the things that make you a better Tank are online, as well as most of what you'd need to be a really impressive charger. If you did Half Orc and dropped the Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment to a later level you could get Headlong Rush at 4 (Moving IMproved Bull Rush down to 3). This would also push Improved Initiative WAY down the ranks, but that also doesn't matter.
You missed Power Attack, Andarious.
Fixed:
1 Combat Reflexes, Stand Still*H, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)*F
2 Power Attack*F
3 Mage Slayer
4 Improved Bull Rush*F
6 Leap Attack, Shock Trooper*F
8 Martial Study (Foehammer)*F
9 Blind-Fight
10 Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)*F
12 Pierce Magical Concealment, Robilar's Gambit*F
13
14 Improved Initiative *F
15 Supernatural Instincts -- Because we want everything to provoke an AoO
16 Overpowering Attack *F-ACF
17
18 Pierce Magical Protection, Defensive Sweep*F
19
20 Cleave *F
Hahaha, you're right. I think I'd assumed I threw it in really early, because ya know, power attack is a staple. Simple fix though, like you did there.
Curiously, I might actually delay Power Attack from that early on in the build. At the very low levels, total attack bonuses are low (so you're relying on the dice and really don't have too much accuracy to spare) and base attack bonuses are even lower (so PA doesn't have much fuel to work with in the first place). A super-early Power Attack largely only serves a role as a prerequisite, since so many higher-prerequisite kickass damage feats either flat-out require it (i.e. Shock Trooper) or really only work well if you have it (i.e. Deft Opportunist). However, here, most of the late-game feats require it anyway, so there's not much point in delaying it.
(Oddly enough, I think you might get a bigger benefit overall out of an early Improved Bull Rush, since bull rushing automatically "hits" without an attack roll, and the Strength checks aren't hard to boost (charge, Powerful Build, and so on all stack with the fat +4 from IBR itself, and that's on the scale of an ability check, not AC or the like.). This was actually one of the more effective tactics I used at the lower levels with my summoner, bull-rushing low-Strength targets into environmental hazards or within reach of our other warriors. Sadly, for some reason, IBR requires Power Attack, so this point is moot when building characters, but in terms of actually playing them? It might matter.)
Also, Andarious, it's Overpowering Attack, the ACF, and not the very-similarly-named Overwhelming Assault feat. Just to keep the confusion to a minimum. Both of them have very high prerequisites, but the ACF actually gives a pretty decent benefit (namely, it's similar to Decisive Strike, except you can use it with any weapon), while the feat is basically a cousin of Defensive Sweep and a transitional form between Goad and Iron Guard's Glare. Sadly, Overwhelming Assault is significantly worse than Defensive Sweep, since its benefit isn't amazing given the prerequisites, and the effect can be shut down pretty easily.
NineInchNall's progression is damn good. Malakith, note how much of it actually overlaps with your suggestions - largely, it's reordering the feats you've selected to bring a bigger bang to the early game. It'll be about as effective a "tank" as a fighter-20 can accomplish in 3.5. This is what I meant when I said " the iconic image of a D&D tank isn’t a knight in plate armor with sword and shield. It’s a giant warrior with a polearm and armor designed to let him move, and move with catlike reflexes. " If the spiked chain or Human don't interest you, you can replace it with a guisarme and fight very similarly. You'll need to be more aware of your surroundings and the 5-foot step, but the ability to save a feat may be worth that hassle.
There is a slight issue with non-spiked-chain reach weapons in the lategame - namely, Defensive Sweep says "adjacent" and not "threatened" - but that's minor.
Also, if you want, we can consider equipment next. Two things to definitely consider here are size increasing effects (they dramatically improve your threatened area and your size modifier on trips, among other things, though they usually lower your Dexterity and thus give you fewer uses of Combat Reflexes) and the ability to grab synergistic effects through gear rather than feats (for instance, you can get the effect of Combat Reflexes through Serpent Armor (MIC), and can use the Evasive Reflexes (ToB) feat in the build instead; putting the two together allows you to reposition yourself when it isn't your turn. This means that if a mook provokes an AoO from you, you aren't forced to kill them - you can instead use the opportunity to move to a position where you threaten a more significant target, or can line up a boss-killing charge. Note that you can't charge a target if you don't meet the charge movement and targeting requirements at the start of your turn.)
IF you're using a Stand Still build, I highly suggest you read my Lockdown guide. It's big and long and quite comprehensive, and links to several alternate builds.
The key behind a Stand Still build is that you force enemies to stay put, so they have no choice but to attack anyone but you. You use a reach weapon to threaten a wide area, so they can't avoid you when moving, and Thicket of Blades to make sure when they move, you can hit them.
Once that's done, it's all about more opportunities to hit them. Robilar's Gambit is the big one...when they hit you, you hit them back. Defensive Sweep is another....they can't move becuase they are Standing Still, so you get a free AoO on them at the end of the round. Heap the punishment on them with your full BAB attacks. Deft Opportunist gives you +4 TH on AoO's, a monster bonus that converts nicely with Power Attack.
The build matures when you take Overwhelming Attack, give up all your iteratives for one double damage attack (this doesn't make your damage go down by much, actually), and ALL YOUR AOO's ARE NOW DOUBLE DAMAGE. You can literally kill anything twice as fast as it is killing you.
I list out several feats which trigger more attacks of opportunity. And the general feats you get are COMPLETELY elective.
==Aelryinth
Ahh, both printed in the same book as well. That's a pretty nice addition to the AOO tank I was unaware of.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
H- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)/ *
1- Combat Reflexes/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Expertise/ Lv.2 F
4- Deft Opportunist/ Lv.3
5- Improved Trip/ Lv.4 F
6- Martial Study (FoeHammer)/ Lv.6
7- Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)/ Lv. 6 F
8- Power Attack/ Lv.8 F
9- Leap Attack/ Lv.9
10- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Mage Slayer/ Lv.12
13- Shock Trooper/ Lv.14 F
14- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- Blind-Fight/ Lv.18 F
17- Pierce Magical Concealment/Lv.18
18- Cleave/ Lv.20 F
Well I love the build ideas but the only thing is that I want to keep for sure is improved trip and expertise and deft because they all help with the tripping and the tanking and make my AoO more accurate. But Deft is replaceable. just not trip.
basically, Order is easily debatable, but I wanna have improved trip so I am almost always guranteed a trip.
I guess it mostly comes down to, what sort of ability generation system do you expect? On anything less than 32 PB (Kind of the top end we expect around here) needing 13 Str (MOAR is good), 15 Dex, 13 Con (14 is the gold standard), 13 Int is well... rough. It's taken some serious convincing to get you to finally drop a feat that also relied on Cha, and you won't want to dump your Wis, because well, that will get you and or your party killed pretty easily (failed Will saves are bad).
On 25 PB the build I propose (with revision from NIN) requires Str 13+, Dex 13+, Con 13+ and that's it for specifics. This allows 16 (10 Pts), 13 (5 Pts), 14 (6 Pts) and Int and Wis 10 (another 4 points). Your build is going to require Str 13 (5 Pts), Dex 15 (8 Pts), Con 13 (5 Pts), and Int 13 (5 Pts), leaves 2 pts to bump each Con and Str to 14, or Wis to 10, or Dex to 16. See the problem yet?
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
Then you use a very liberal rolling method, most of the groups this crowd plays with prefer a more moderate, potentially less cheaty method. It's outlined in the DMG and it's called Point Buy. With this in mind I try to make sure builds can function (well) on 25 PB, if you've got more points or god stats, then fine you'll be even better. Your rolls seem to end up with 51-54 point buy which is usually considered to be questionable at best. I assume thus, liberal rolling method.
Well After some meditation I think I have a base feat line up that will work perfectly without reliance on enchantments via armor or accessories as well as some great races to use for this type of character:
RACES:
Half-Orc (+2 Str, -2 int & cha)
Human (change feat order slightly, +1 feat)
Minotaur (Lv.9+ only, +8 str & +4 con, -4 Int & -2 cha, modreate change to feat arrangement)
Ogre (Lv.7+ only, +10 str & +4 con, -2 dex & -4 int & cha, slight change to feat arrangement)
Half-Ogre (Lv.3+ only, +6 str & +2 con, -2 dex & int & cha)
____________________________________________________________________________
1- EWP (spiked chain)/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.2 F
4- Blind-Fight/ Lv.3
5- Power Attack/ Lv.4 F
6- Mage Slayer/ Lv.6
7- Martial Study (FoeHammer)/ Lv. 6 F
8- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.8 F
9- Shock Trooper/Lv.9
10- Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Pierce magical Concealment/ Lv.12
13- Improved Initiative/ Lv.14 F
14- Supernatural Instincts/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.18 F
17- Pierce Magical Protection/ Lv.18
18- Cleave/ Lv.20 F
I took everything into consideration for this version of the build and decided that thou leap attack is op, you cant use it and ubercharging at the same time so it would be better to focus one to maximize efficiency. Also Tripping is awesome but you can only do so much with it so I took the feats focusing on tripping only out. Stand Still and the spiked chain should do just fine with making sure everyone around me stays put. Thank you all with your help thus far bwt
With that part out of the way, I would like to learn more about this point buy system as well as what equipment (armor, enchantments, ect) will help me best in making myself both very tanky as well as even more powerful. The Point Buy stystem I will look up in my spare time probably but idk where to begin with equipment and armor optimization XP
Leap attack is part of ubercharging so I'm not sure what you mean when you say you can't do both.
oh, I thought you could not combine things like that, since the your doing it a specific way for each feat. Idk, I guess I still have more to learn XD
bwt, fixed it:
1- EWP (spiked chain)/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.2 F
4- Power Attack/ Lv.3
5- Improved Bull Rush/ Lv.4 F
6- Mage Slayer/ Lv.6
7- Martial Study (FoeHammer)/ Lv. 6 F
8- Shock Trooper/ Lv.8 F
9- Leap Attack/Lv.9
10- Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)/ Lv.10 F
11- Blind-Fight/ Lv.12 F
12- Pierce magical Concealment/ Lv.12
13- Riliar's Gambit/ Lv.14 F
14- Supernatural Instincts/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.18 F
17- Pierce Magical Protection/ Lv.18
18- Cleave/ Lv.20 F
This setup is for non human races, for humans the setup is alot smoother (imo) but this was I can use things like half orc or half ogre if I want, though half ogre dex penalty sucks XP
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
ok then, I was not really fond of the ogre and half ogre myself so all good XD
But for some reason I just love the minotaur. tbh its probably my favorite type of mythological creature. Plust his stat bonuses and stat minuses work perfectly. yeah you have monsterous humanoid levels but in a less serious campain I would play him
Goliath seems pretty rad, could not find the half-giant thou. Only downside is the dex penalty. There was also a feral gargun race which gives bonuses to str, con, and dex. It has two levels of monstorous humanoid and a LA of 2 but it gets the same bonuses as a goliath plus 2 natural armor. I know its not amazing but its deffinately better than some of my earlier choices. (ogres XP)
Half-giant is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants
Yeah I think i will avoid the half-giant in favor of the goliath. Is there any other races that give good dex bonuses without penalizing str or con? or vice versa?
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
If you want to look at races that are overall just stupid powerful they are probably Strongheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, and Human. There are some other races that are +0LA and good for certain tricks, Illumian and Kalashtar come to mind. Mostly these races are not awesome because of ability scores (Although it doesn't hurt the Strongheart Halfling or the Whispergnome).
well I tried to look through the list but then I remembered my DM is a dick on what races we can use XD He doesn't like how there are so many variants on each race so he wants us to stick to the ones closer to core. Like the Planers races, races of destiny, monster manual, ect. idk why its just his thing. Bwt I did find a race I like alot for this, but another opinion would be great. the Neraph. They get to make a camoflauged charge once per encounter that flat-foots the enemy, a plus 5 on jump checks, +2 ac, and no LA. thoughts?
also just discovered the sundark goggles, which means I can use an orc without worry of being dazed :D
Neraph is decent, but it's usually used as a LA+0 outsider - meaning it works damn well with casters using Alter Self and polymorph effects, and less frequently used with warrior types. Importantly, the neraph charge does not flat-foot the target, but denies them their Dexterity bonus to AC. These are different effects.
Honestly, for fighters, you usually just find humans (bonus feat, quite flexibile), orcs (usually water orcs; high Strength for 0 LA and access to Headlong Rush), and goliaths (big Strength and Powerful Build; these usually splash a barbarian level for Mountain Rage) overrepresented, unless a specific racial ability is desired (i.e. Dancing with Shadows, Revenant Blade, etc.).
Going back to your question on equipment, it depends strongly on what level you're starting with. In general, you want light armor (not heavy!), as that doesn't slow your movement down or restrict your Dexterity (which you'll be pumping due to Combat Reflexes and Initiative). The gold standard in the core books is the mithral breastplate; while better armors exist, the effort needed to outdo the mithral breastplate is often not worth it. Weapons we've discussed; if you're not using the spiked chain, you need to look for two-handed weapons with reach and/or trip ability. In terms of extra equipment, that's getting into magic-item territory, and I'm not willing to discuss that until I'm certain what level you're starting at.
ok then sounds good. Water orc is def the orc I would use but idk if he will allow it since its a variant and he does not seem to like variant races. Something about them just existing to please everyone idk XP
The mithrill breastplate seems like it will work perfectly, and I plan to use the spiked chain now that I have read about it. It seems to be the best reach weapon period.
As for starting level, we usually start at 3 for more serious campaigns, but sometimes we may start anywhere between 1 and 9, though usually it is 3.
Water Orc is sort of oddly specific as it's almost a Genasi but it's Orc specific.
well i mean they are basicallyt orc in term or stats but better cause of the +2 con but it is oddly specific, which is why my dm does not like variants XP
oh, bwt, does headlong rush synergize with shock tooper/leap attack? I figure it would since shock trooper and leap attack synergize but I wanna make sure before I for usre make any changes to my build, since I got it in a great position atm.
Yes, it does. So with a two handed weapon and all three of those feats you power attack from AC, get damage of three times the penalty and then double everything (basically 6 damage for 1 AC penalty). Add in a valorous weapon and it goes up to tripple damage on everything (9 damage per 1 AC penalty).That's when stuff like Robilar's Gambit gets fun too, because you hit a guy for loads of damage, and then if someone hits you, you hit them back, more than likely a LOT harder than they hit you.
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote:
that all pretty awesome, but its not so much i wanna focus on ubercharging so much as i wanna make my charge attacks powerful while still keeping the jist of what I have set up. With that said, I took out shock trooper and improved bull rush because i don't like the bull rush feat at all and I just don't like sacrificing ac for a power attack, expecially when i can just use valorous weapon and headlong rush with leap attack and just use pawer attack in a sparing way to maximize both damage and accuracy. plus you said ubercharging was not required so I am just gonna go about it this way. Bwt here is what I have set up atm:
1- EWP (spiked chain)/ Lv. 1 F
2- Stand Still/ Lv.1
3- Combat Reflexes/ Lv.2 F
4- Mage Slayer/ Lv.3
5- Blind Fight/ Lv.4 F
6- Headlong Rush/ Lv.6
7- Martial Study (FoeHammer)/ Lv. 6 F
8- Power attack/ Lv.8 F
9- Leap Attack/Lv.9
10- Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)/ Lv.10 F
11- Robilar's Gambit/ Lv.12 F
12- Pierce magical Concealment/ Lv.12
13- Improved Initiative/ Lv.14 F
14- Supernatural Instincts/ Lv.15
15- Overpowering Attack/ Lv.16 F.A.
16- Defensive Sweep/ Lv.18 F
17- Pierce Magical Protection/ Lv.18
18- Cleave/ Lv.20 F
__________________________________________________________________________
Equipment:
Valorous Spiked Chain
Mithril Breastplate
Sundark Goggles (no light sensitivity for this orc)
Now idk how the whole +5 thing works with weapons and such. Is that like a weapon being masterworked 5 times something? probably not but idk XP
Also now I need to find out what enchanted accesories I should be shooting for. Suggestions?
If you're charging (-2 AC) and using Robilar's Gambit (-4 AC), why does Shock Trooper even matter? Seriously look at moster attack bonus's by CR. A random example is dinosaurs, CR 3 have +7 attack, the CR 7 has +13, and the CR 8 has +20. You're going to need a seriously amazing AC to shrug those attacks off anyway. A CR 4 Owlbear has +9 for another random monster, this is without getting into Dragons and The Tarrasque which both have ludicrisly high AB by CR.
Many monsters also attack touch AC or catch you flat footed regularly, meaning your AC means even less. It's not really an important stat, at least much of the time. It's worth putting some effort into getting your base AC up but not a big deal to dump it all for an attack that WILL KILL.
Malakith-The-Dragoon wrote: