Here we go...
Alastar;15372550 wrote:
However - unless these factors are skewed to your favor - I expect Alastar is correct.
what would prevent either of you from doing a fighter1/wizard19?
I say no contest...
And yeah, the only thing preventing us from doing that is HONOR!!!!!
I ask again, does it have to be melee?
Does this same effect apply to Crusader strikes? If it does I think you could build a martial adept that would give a cleric a real run for his money.
It would be better to ditch the fighter level and stick to martial adept classes, which are pure melee and within the spirit of the challenge, but I think it could be done with the fighter level still.
13 Crusader, 1 fighter, 1 Swordsage, 5 Master of the Nine.
Preferred 13 Cru, 1 Warblade, 1 SS, 5 Mot9.
I would have to dig up the exact details of my build but you should be able to fit in all the reqs for mot9 and still grab adamantine body and the warforged feat that renders you immune to crits.
You get a slew of crusader goodness, cherrypicked swordsage utility and warblade for some iron heart. Once you hit 20 and cap out your Mot9 class levels you have 11 readied and 9 granted maneuvers that recycle every 3 rounds and you can get all but one of the level 9 discipline abilities. Heal based on character level every three rounds, strikes guaranteed to do 100+ weapon damage as a standard action still allowing you full movement etc. I am not a hardcore optimizer, but I think this build could give you a rock solid base that is ridiculously tough to kill being immune to crits and self healing, with solid offense. You can literally wear the cleric down.
I am away from my books and notes at the moment, so if any of those numbers are slightly off... I blame that.
If you want to switch it to a free for all, that opens up ranged spells for me. It's your call.
Like, forcecage.
1) Is DMM: Persist allowed?
2) Do Nightsticks stack?
Sorry, but if you get two yeses, I don't see there being any hope at all for the fighter.
So, the major question for determining Cleric melee power is:
1) Is DMM: Persist allowed?
2) Do Nightsticks stack?
Sorry, but if you get two yeses, I don't see there being any hope at all for the fighter.
Perma-walking in AMF because your epic UMD skill because you took 2 levels of feat rogue and took Able Learner?
Is cheater of mystra allowed? Or Twice-Betrayer?
No nightsticks do not stack. Bonuses from the same source do not stack. That's how I interpret it. Even if they did, I wouldn't use it. It's not needed.
Cheater of Mystra relies on nightsticks as well, which I wouldn't use more than 1. I haven't read Twice-Betrayer recently, but it's TO, correct? I'm aiming for CO. So I won't be using it either.
Wow. Hey, even if you win this (which, really, there is no doubt in my mind that it will happen) he may still say Fighter is better. It is hard to get things through his head, you know? That being said, Chuck wins this fight every damn time. No Casting Classes aside from Cleric is meaningless for Martial Adepts. They are melee classes.
He can say fighter is better all he wants, really. I'm just doing it for fun. I enjoy duels, and I enjoy CO, so i figured this would be fun. Alastar mentioned in the cleric/druid thread that he was a better builder of tanks, so I figured this is as good a time as any.
And Chuck is unavailable to Alastar as cleric is a casting class. He won't be using it. Otherwise it's a battle of Chucks, and that's meaningless :P
He can say fighter is better all he wants, really. I'm just doing it for fun. I enjoy duels, and I enjoy CO, so i figured this would be fun. Alastar mentioned in the cleric/druid thread that he was a better builder of tanks, so I figured this is as good a time as any.
And Chuck is unavailable to Alastar as cleric is a casting class. He won't be using it. Otherwise it's a battle of Chucks, and that's meaningless :P
So you can use Chuck yourself. Excellent...
No nightsticks do not stack. Bonuses from the same source do not stack. That's how I interpret it. Even if they did, I wouldn't use it. It's not needed.
That's like saying you can't have more than one metamagic rod of Extend spell, because the bonuses come from essentially the same source. If my descretion as the DM will decide whether or not they stack, I'll rule them to stack. You use a nightstick, you pick another one, that simple.
Also, I just noticed I'm in your sig, wheee
where as extend rod gives you: 3 ''charges'' a day of extend. It's not the same mechanic.
But yeah, I'm almost guaranteed a lost if Nightsticks stack, since he'll have everyspell and their mother on him, but I'll still try.
And yeah, it's not like ranged spells for a cleric are gonna change something in this, it's mostly a case of who goes first.
As is often the case for lvl 20 duels.
And ST, i don't know where this resentment you have for me came from, but if a fighter loses to a cleric, everyone will expect that, me amongst them. If the fighter wins thought.....
Let's just say it's worth a try.
Hey, I'm the underdog!!!
And ST, i don't know where this resentment you have for me came from, but if a fighter loses to a cleric, everyone will expect that, me amongst them. If the fighter wins thought.....
My bad. I thought you were someone else (someone I had a nice, long argument with about spellcasters and fighters being on different grounds).
Eidt: Tshern, Alastar, what days look good for you two to do this?
Feel free to rule nightsticks not to stack, it would even out the odds a bit. However, I fail to see the problem. You use one nightstick and put it in your back and use another one.
You know, the wording of it does make me think twice about letting them stack. It does seem like it's a bonus of sorts, and not charges. Hrmmm. I guess it's a DM's call. It's not as cut and dry as I thought it was before.
No nightsticks do not stack. Bonuses from the same source do not stack. That's how I interpret it. Even if they did, I wouldn't use it. It's not needed.
Actually, they explicitly stack. They're treated as Extra Turning, which does in fact say that it stacks with itself.
JaronK
Actually, they explicitly stack. They're treated as Extra Turning, which does in fact say that it stacks with itself.
Thanks, this is exactly what I mean. Sure, it makes nightsticks ten times more powerful than they were already, but suck is life.
Okay, So as to not derail this thread into a nighstick debate, let's go with Tshern's ruling.
They stack. (I'm probably not going to use more than one, Alastar. I'll let you know if that changes, but I think it's doable without.)
As I said in the other thread, I've got Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday free. Any of those should do unless I suddenly get alerted to work, which should not happen.
Do you mean this Thursday (tomorrow) or next? Either of those work best for me. What time? I'm in GMT -05:00, according to my computer. Not sure what time that corresponds to everyone else though.
Edit: Also, not familiar with what you used for the duel, can you PM me what I need to do/download, Tshern? Thanks :D
Bob the Cleric wakes up at dawn, fresh for the day. Bob has 10 turn attempts without a nightstick.
Bob encounters some shadows in a dungeon and uses 2 of his turn attempts. Bob is now 2/10.
Later Bob gets into a long fight, where he uses his Divine Ward ability 6 times. Bob is now 8/10.
Bob gets into another fight and uses Divine Might to add extra damage twice. Bob now has spent 10/10 turns and can't normally turn again.
Bob pulls out a Nightstick. Bob is now 10/14 for turns, and promptly uses all 4 of them to DMM:Extend 2 spells. Bob is now 14/14.
Bob puts away his nightstick, and is 14/10. He can't use any more turn attempts.
Later in combat, Bob casts Eagles Splendor. Bob is now 14/12 and still can't spend turn attempts. He pulls his Nightstick back out and is now 14/16 and turns 2 sets of ghouls. He is now 16/16 and can't turn anymore.
His Eagles Splendor wears off, and he puts away his Nightstick, Bob is now 16/10 and can't use turn attempts anymore.
This is the way I figure it works based on how I interpret the rules. Anyone else care to comment?
Do you mean this Thursday (tomorrow) or next? Either of those work best for me. What time? I'm in GMT -05:00, according to my computer. Not sure what time that corresponds to everyone else though.
Edit: Also, not familiar with what you used for the duel, can you PM me what I need to do/download, Tshern? Thanks :D
Thursday of next week, tomorrow I am busy beyond words. A very good friend (cannot be emphasized enough, if you get what I mean) is in Finland from abroad and I have to do all my Easter stuff too. Sorry about that.
The duel between Alastar and archerpwr was played via IRC and I think it worked out fine. IRC can be downloaded there and it is easy to use. Ask me if you encounter difficulties.
Assuming this all works with Alastar ;)
Nightsticks are unslotted magic items that grant the extra turning feat. Buying six is like getting Extra Turning 6 times. The feat stacks, so the items do too.
Question about that: What is the price of them if you drop the unslotted part? Let's say we make them a ring. What is their new price?
@ Tshern: Will definitely PM it to you. I'll probably place it on mythweavers, because that's easy enough to do.
Question about that: What is the price of them if you drop the unslotted part? Let's say we make them a ring. What is their new price?
Probably half price.
Off topic: Anybody care to finish the druid vs cleric for me? It's the FFA match.
Emulate Bite of the Werebear with Miracle.
Cast Greater Blink from a domain (or emulate it with miracle).
Emulate Giant Size with Miracle.
Emulate Bite of the Werebear with Miracle.
Cast Greater Blink from a domain (or emulate it with miracle).
What I said in either this thread or the original one. Nothing like colossal Cleric using his holy symbol as an improvised weapon to pound the opposition through the crust of earth.
Probably half price.
Off topic: Anybody care to finish the druid vs cleric for me? It's the FFA match.
How's life going right now?
Why is it that it seems nobody ever reads this part of the DMG?
Yes, DMG Magic Item Creation Guidelines provide that a slottless item is 2x price -- page 285 "No space limitation"
Why is it that it seems nobody ever reads this part of the DMG?
I don't do math, that's why. I believe firmly in the 2+3=Chair theory.
How's life going right now?
Aside from no computers, fine. Still the same espianoge (sp?) + deception themed home life. I just won't have the tech for most of the stuff I need til Summer or so. If it can't be done on a PSP, it probably aint happening. I am kinda ****** with one of my friends right now. Probably gunna give the silent treatment for a couple of weeks.
I don't do math, that's why. I believe firmly in the 2+3=Chair theory.
Are you seeing someone or can we get married right here, right now?
Are you seeing someone or can we get married right here, right now?
LoL! Free on my end.
:P
Aside from no computers, fine. Still the same espianoge (sp?) + deception themed home life. I just won't have the tech for most of the stuff I need til Summer or so. If it can't be done on a PSP, it probably aint happening. I am kinda ****** with one of my friends right now. Probably gunna give the silent treatment for a couple of weeks.
Damn. Well good luck to ya. Not too much longer though.
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes love
Then comes marriage
Then comes the baby
In the baby carriage
But yeah, i still think i can win this, mainly because i have aces up my sleeve. And aces rock.
Tshern and ST, sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes love
Then comes marriage
Then comes the baby
In the baby carriage
But yeah, i still think i can win this, mainly because i have aces up my sleeve. And aces rock.
I have bricks up my sleeve. And everyone knows Bricks>>>Playing Cards. Screw your Ace of Spades, I have mortar and stone!
I have bricks up my sleeve. And everyone knows Bricks>>>Playing Cards. Screw your Ace of Spades, I have mortar and stone!
So adding this to my sig. You're going to own my sig soon, ST.
And be sure to specify that Leadership is banned.
HAHAHAHHAA
See!!! that's keeping an ace up your sleeve, keeping this information secret till the very end.
SCREW YOUR BRICKS, MWAHAHAHAHAHA
.....
I'll go work on my build...
I forgot to mention something: I'm gambit
HAHAHAHHAA
See!!! that's keeping an ace up your sleeve, keeping this information secret till the very end.
SCREW YOUR BRICKS, MWAHAHAHAHAHA
.....
I'll go work on my build...
You know how to speak French, true...but can you manage the Luisiana accent?
I forgot to mention something: I'm gambit
HAHAHAHHAA
See!!! that's keeping an ace up your sleeve, keeping this information secret till the very end.
SCREW YOUR BRICKS, MWAHAHAHAHAHA
.....
I'll go work on my build...
Damn you and your Mutant powers! I shall have my revenge! Mwuhahaha!
Ever used a mortar? Aiming with those suckers is damn difficult.
Been there. Done that. Lost a house.
As a matter of fact...
you have cities in finland?
I thought you had lotsa ice with a house here or there.....
Just kidding ;)
But yeah, i'm gonna go ranged for now, working on things right now.
Forests in Finland? Over 80% of our country is nothing but forest and from the remaining 20% around 12 consist of lakes. Cities? Not so much, Helsinki and its neighbour cities (which are still huge on our scale) have around 900 thousand people living in them. The large city I live next to (6th or 5th largest city in Finland) is called Turku and it has 180k people. No ice though.
What's the point of being up north if there is no ice? Sounds like you got ripped off.
What's the point of being up north if there is no ice? Sounds like you got ripped off.
Tell me about, nothing like my real estate agent told me. Where are all the polar bears?
Tell me about, nothing like my real estate agent told me. Where are all the polar bears?
I love snow. Rain sucks. I live in Florida. I miss Oklahoma. Who cares about Tornadoes when Hurricanes force me to move to South Carolina for two weeks? Between that and being snowed in on weekends, I'll take the snow!
Tell me about, nothing like my real estate agent told me. Where are all the polar bears?
The polar bears are in Greenland most likely. The nice temperate forests would be Iceland I believe(I only know the climate of the region, not the topography).
Regardless, I hope the irony isn't lost on anyone.
Edit: ST, so you live in the other state with the crazy state democrats? No offense, but I'm glad they aren't going to allow a revote...Florida isn't exactly known to be good about the whole counting of votes. People's dead goldfish comprise the majority of the swing votes.
The polar bears are in Greenland most likely. The nice temperate forests would be Iceland I believe(I only know the climate of the region, not the topography).
Regardless, I hope the irony isn't lost on anyone.
Edit: ST, so you live in the other state with the crazy state democrats? No offense, but I'm glad they aren't going to allow a revote...Florida isn't exactly known to be good about the whole counting of votes. People's dead goldfish comprise the majority of the swing votes.
Honestly, I don't care who is in charge of this country. We are all going to bite the big one eventually. Why bother trying to fight over something that pointless? If something happens that screws us over, well, better hope we find a way to adapt to it soon, or our asses will be lunch.
LoL. I quoted you just as you finished the Edit.
I'm tshern's snow breathren.
For cunning and the win. . .
Also can you just blasphemy/holyword/dictum/word of chaos?
Though my home is probably at higher latitudes than yours. Thanks for the Gulf stream we still manage around here.
Thanks to the Gulf Stream...
I almost made a really bad joke there. If you know my jokes, then that one, you will figure out, is almost ban-worthy.
Though my home is probably at higher latitudes than yours. Thanks for the Gulf stream we still manage around here.
When global warming changes the ocean currents, you're going to have to move elsewhere or freeze.
Texas is teh roxorz
Some village in Texas is missing it's idiot.
When global warming changes the ocean currents, you're going to have to move elsewhere or freeze.
Dude. You know what my plan is for copping with Global Warming?
Nuclear Winter.
Texas is teh roxorz
Until the droughts start up.
Some village in Texas is missing it's idiot.
That shirt always makes me giggle inside.
When global warming changes the ocean currents, you're going to have to move elsewhere or freeze.
Ice ages are a part of the world's normal geological cycle. Moreover, global warming is normal as well.
Some village in Texas is missing it's idiot.
Says the man from Michigan "Where men are men, and sheep are scared";)
Until the droughts start up.
Oil is nice and all, but you can't drink it. My state's got the largest supply of fresh water in the world. And the cleanest. Drink your Texas oil and die. Come to Michigan and drink our clean and inexpensive water and live. It's Post-Glacierific.
WE have the largest supply of fresh water in the world. We're afraid U.S.A is gonna invade us for it.
Oil is nice and all, but you can't drink it. My state's got the largest supply of fresh water in the world. And the cleanest. Drink your Texas oil and die. Come to Michigan and drink our clean and inexpensive water and live. It's Post-Glacierific.
I've been to Michigan. Not all it's cracked up to be. The rise of non-US auto makers really hurt it. Texas otoh, has all that cheap illegal labor.
Ahem..... I live in quebec
WE have the largest supply of fresh water in the world. We're afraid U.S.A is gonna invade us for it.
I think that is far too good a reason for the USA to invade a country. It's more likely that they will conquer you because have a better school books or something.
Ahem..... I live in quebec
WE have the largest supply of fresh water in the world. We're afraid U.S.A is gonna invade us for it.
Remember the Mexican War? Canada is next.
Remember the Mexican War? Canada is next.
God knows what's the next country to bend over...
Or before U.S.A closes all frontier and close in on itself in a paroxysm of xenophobic paranoia.
Says the man from Michigan "Where men are men, and sheep are scared";)
Whoever said that was tragically misinformed. Michigan isn't a sheep-herding state. We have cows. They go "moo" not "baah". And people aren't allergic to them. But animals aren't our "big thing". We save the dairy-ness for Wisconsin. Our big thing is apples. And Michigan apples...Dem's some good apples!
We have cows. They go "moo" not "baah". And people aren't allergic to them.
Yeah, it's not like 80% of Chinese people were lactose intolerant or something. That'd be crazy.
Except if you live in Ellensburg, Washington. I haven't seen rain in 4 months.
I don't do math, that's why. I believe firmly in the 2+3=Chair theory.
Smeg?
Emulate Giant Size with Miracle.
Emulate Bite of the Werebear with Miracle.
Cast Greater Blink from a domain (or emulate it with miracle).
Don't forget Shapechange from a domain. And/or Draconic Polymorph + Outsider type.
@ Midnight_v: As per the challenge parameters, the cleric can be buffed, but it's a melee fight. Though Consumptive Field cheese is not out of the question.
Come to think of it...cast Persistent Extended (Greater) Consumptive Field ahead of time to spike up your caster level and your Strength the day before, then do it again the day of the event to protect your high CL and Strength. In conjunction with Initiate of Mystra, it'll be nigh-impossible to employ antimagic against you.
So that means that we'll need a new delineation: how much buffing time do you have Way Before the match and Immediately Before the match? This can make a difference in multiple ways, such as by casting Persistent Extended spells (which last two days rather than one, saving on turning attempts) and by waiting hours/refreshing spells in between casting a bunch of buffs.
It's going to be a standard duel. No pre-round buffs save what lasts a day or more.
I'm actually planning on killing Alastar's fighter with my cleric's weapon. Shocking right?
Any version of a spell that is in a book and a later book, we use the later book version.
Bleh, like i said, it's probly going to be an initiative fight.
Any version of a spell that is in a book and a later book, we use the later book version.
I agree that I'll be using the later book version. What is this 'we'? You said you're building a straight combat, no casting, class. :P
Shapechange qualifies in the polymorph crap that we aren't using.
It's going to be a standard duel. No pre-round buffs save what lasts a day or more.
I'm actually planning on killing Alastar's fighter with my cleric's weapon. Shocking right?
You don't maen the "Hand" do you?
As for agribusiness, Michigan is famous for apples, being able to grow cherries, and most especially for Michigan Black Beans. The bean soup at the Congressional Luncheon in Washington DC is Michigan Black Bean soup.
Of course, we're trying to grow all the corn we can now to jump on the ethanol kick and get that wonderful $20 a bushel or whatever it's up to now, but that's life.
Whereabouts ya from, Skydragon? I'm from near Bay City, birthplace of Madonna, yay.
===Aelryinth
Actually, they explicitly stack. They're treated as Extra Turning, which does in fact say that it stacks with itself.
Just a note (wow this thread went off-topic fast ;) ), but I'm reading Libris Mortis now, and I don't see where it says nightsticks are treated as Extra Turning. They require Extra Turning to craft, but the item description says simply: "anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day", there's no explicit reference to the feat.
I think it's ambiguous, although given the cleric player has said he's not going to use more than one, it doesn't matter for this thread.
The connection lies in that a prerequisite to crafting, in most cases, has a direct connection to the benefit the item bestows. An item that grants a +4 enhancement to Con needs Bear's Endurance to be crafted, which grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Con. Likewise, the nightstick grants 4 uses of turning/rebuking, just as its prereq. Extra Turning does. So the connection lies in the fact that since it functions like Extra Turning, and extra turning stacks, it should as well. If A=B and B=C then A=C.
"Item X has Feat Y as a crafting prereq" does not necessarily imply that "Item X grants Feat Y". I can't find any DMG items that have feat prereqs on a quick glance, but to use your example, an item that grants a +2 or +6 enhancement bonus to Con also needs bear's endurance to be crafted, despite the fact that it doesn't grant the exact effect of the spell (and there are quite a lot of crafting prereqs that have no immediate relation to the item - enervation for vicious weapons, as just one example). Crafting prereqs can be closely linked to the effect of the item, or only vaguely linked to it, or anything in between.
Suppose there was a Lesser Nightstick that granted two extra turn attempts instead of four, and a Greater Nightstick that granted six (both requiring Extra Turning to craft, in analogy to bear's endurance and amulets of health). Would you still argue that they stack? (not a rhetorical question) It seems to me that the item doesn't say that it actually grants the Extra Turning feat, and it would need to for the stacking rules on Extra Turning to carry over explicitly to nightsticks.
I love snow. Rain sucks. I live in Florida. I miss Oklahoma. Who cares about Tornadoes when Hurricanes force me to move to South Carolina for two weeks? Between that and being snowed in on weekends, I'll take the snow!
Holy crap, what part of Florida? I'm living in Jacksonville right now.
It seems to me that the item doesn't say that it actually grants the Extra Turning feat, and it would need to for the stacking rules on Extra Turning to carry over explicitly to nightsticks.
Well here in lies the issue. Stacking rules apply to bonuses. Turning attempts are not bonuses. Ergo, there's not really a rule for stacking turn attempts, per say. It could go either way. For the purpose of this duel, they stack. Also, for the purpose of this duel, I don't care, because I won't use more than one, if I even use one.
I guess if you really wanted an answer you could spin the roulette wheel with custserv... ;)
Holy crap, what part of Florida? I'm living in Jacksonville right now.
Indian River. Specifically Vero Beach. My DeviantArt profile has info on this.
Oil is nice and all, but you can't drink it. My state's got the largest supply of fresh water in the world. And the cleanest. Drink your Texas oil and die. Come to Michigan and drink our clean and inexpensive water and live. It's Post-Glacierific.
Yeah. Beats the hell out of eating a cactus. I'm so glad I don't live with my aunt. She lives in Phoenix, AZ.
I think that's fair.Unnamed bonuses stack. That has been the case from day one. Any restriction to that is a House Rule as far as I know. It may be a very good House Rule, but it is a House Rule all the same.
Unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. But as noted above, Nightsticks do not actually grant any sort of "bonus" based on the narrow way D&D defines the term. ("A positive modifier to a die roll.") So we're left to guess at things, though the question is moot considering that the only person for whom the answer would matter has pledged not to use more than one Nightstick.
Where is that rule for unnamed bonuses not stacking?
Unnamed Bonuses
A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name. An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice.
Source. Wasn't that hard to google it up.
Another thing is that Skip has no basis on which to make that ruling. He refers to nothing and just seem to pull things out of thin air. On top of that, what he is saying is that unnamed bonuses do not stack with other unnamed bonuses, regardless of the source of the bonus (notice he says "other bonus"). That directly contradicts the PHB/DMG stacking rules.
I would view that article with more than a little suspicion. Sorry.
Time Stop; Polymorph Any Object --> must have from a CO perspective
combined with Flyby attack and Fly spell from Travel Domain =
dead fighter... OF ANY KIND! how could a mere meele focused fighter EVER believe he could stop that?
DMM a Quickened Time Stop; Cast Fly, Cast your other buffs, and bash his head to bits...
Ilyan, no spell based on Alter self is used in the duel.
I'm sorry, but I think Skip is wrong in this case, for all the reasons I listed above.
Whereabouts ya from, Skydragon? I'm from near Bay City, birthplace of Madonna, yay.
===Aelryinth
Grand Rapids, Actually.
And if Alastar were from Ontario it would be a fair content. But Michigan definately has more fresh water than Quebec.
As far as the whole north/south debate goes I have to firmly side with the north. Snow rules. Having water is awesome. Not having your city destroyed by weather is also kind of nice. I'd even go as far to say that I'm sure Michigan is a great place to live but I'm from Minnesota and if you know anything about professional sports in America then you'll understand why I can't go that far.
Well, even tho its a meele focused cleric, he should still have the Travel and Trickery domains...
Time Stop; Polymorph Any Object --> must have from a CO perspective
combined with Flyby attack and Fly spell from Travel Domain =
dead fighter... OF ANY KIND! how could a mere meele focused fighter EVER believe he could stop that?
DMM a Quickened Time Stop; Cast Fly, Cast your other buffs, and bash his head to bits...
Except that you can't bash someone's head to bits while you're under a time stop. Also polymorphing yourself or shapechanging into some monster is banned in this battle.
Fighters are infamous for their ability to deliver a billion attack of oportunities whenever somethig aproaches. Combine with mage slayer to remove all the cleric buffs with each hit and the cleric is facing a tough nut.
Nevermind that you only need a single level of fighter in the build. Any other noncaster class is good to go in the build.
Wich means the figter is in a kinda building disadvantage. The cleric can pick fighter levels, but the fighter can't ick cleric levels.
just time stop( basicaly you could make it so that innitiative wont matter), followed by buffs including fly( and having the flyby attack feat, either via heroics, or normaly)
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
Noted here.
To be sure, that text isn't in the original core three (PHB, DMG, MM1) as such. It's instead noted obliquely by a sentence in the section on spell functions:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
It's on the bottom right of page 171 in the PHB. That's very weird, to be sure...an oft-cited sentence like that doesn't actually seem to appear as such in the original rules that it's supposed to be quoting. It is sensible and is sort of present in the Rules Compendium (page 21), so it's been solved after the fact.
If someone could point me to a more definitive sentence in core texts or the original 3.5 SRD, that'd be helpful.
Oil is nice and all, but you can't drink it. My state's got the largest supply of fresh water in the world. And the cleanest. Drink your Texas oil and die. Come to Michigan and drink our clean and inexpensive water and live. It's Post-Glacierific.
Excuse me, my country actually is the one who has the largest amount of available fresh water in the world. Sorry for the off-topic. ^^
Excuse me, my country actually is the one who has the largest amount of available fresh water in the world. Sorry for the off-topic. ^^
Well I wasn't about to compare Michigan to an entire country. And now that I've done my homework, I will admit that Alastar was correct. Quebec has 70K square miles of freshwater area and Michigan has 40K. Although Quebec has 500K area of land while Michigan has 50K, so at least Michigan wins in terms of concentration, hands down. Your province only wins by being crazy big.
You guys had glaciers same as us, so it does make sense that given your gigantic land mass you'd have a lot.
Anyway, I PMed Alastar my idea. It's looking like it's going to be an initiative battle.
mmm here we have Pizza and Spaghetti :P :D
Italian, huh? Busted! Finland just won Italy in a pizza contest that was held in New York last week.
Italian, huh? Busted! Finland just won Italy in a pizza contest that was held in New York last week.
Finland won Italy?!!! That's a hell of a prize!
Finland won Italy?!!! That's a hell of a prize!
Almost like saying a random country made France surrender...
Just like most X vs Y combats I think you should do this as a best 2 of 3. D&D has an inherent luck based system which cannot be proven one way or another no matter how many times you run a scenario or fight a fight but the more you do the more the statistical truths come out. Also, a big component of these fights are the arenas/terrain upon which they are fought. I would suggest having one battle have no noticeable terrain features, the second having light terrain features and a few obstacles and the third having heavy terrain features and many obstacles. Depending on the combatants tactics this might not amount to anything but it could provide the difference between a win and a loss.
I can't say anything about the terrain, because that's Tshern's call, but we are doing a best 2 of 3, which is already mentioned in the initial post ;)
Anyway, I PMed Alastar my idea. It's looking like it's going to be an initiative battle.
You scare me when you say things like that.
I do so hope you are wrong...Italian, huh? Busted! Finland just won Italy in a pizza contest that was held in New York last week.
:D a pizza contest with american judges :O
:D :Dis like a sushi contest taking place in switzerland :D :D
Almost like saying a random country made France surrender...
Dude, who hasn't made france surrender?
Dude, who hasn't made france surrender?
Destroy France's White Flag factory and you take away all of their military options.
Dude, who hasn't made france surrender?
Alastar, what do you say to my two suggestions on the previous page?
The other i can't recall and am too cheap to go read.
I mean, i COULD polymorph into a thri kreen and use 4 arms to throw more things at you...
For the fighter (if this is gonna be a melee match, since I didn't read everything), I'd go for a Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Bezerker/Cavalier build. One round massacre.
The point here is, it takes subtility. I think i got something, but nothing is sure.
PS: I wouldn't be a high level cleric if I couldn't fly :P
Edit: The second suggestion was to just PM the builds to Tshern instead of posting them here before the duel. We'd post them after, obviously, but it would avoid any potential metagaming :P
You scare me when you say things like that.
Actually it turns out Alastar's idea is at least as good as mine. But it had a weakness that I think we've found a workaround for.
So yeah. I bet 100 Optimization Points on the non-caster.
Further more, winged boots or a similar item will give you the exact same effect al fly, so no real bother there, you aren't fighting naked...are you? :P
My point is that Skip still is right, if a feat specifically says it stacks with itself, it overrides the general rule he just presented.
Which Extra Turning does state this.
Extra Turning [General]
Prerequisite
Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.
Benefit
Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.
Normal
Without this feat, a character can typically turn or rebuke undead (or other creatures) a number of times per day equal to 3 + his or her Charisma modifier.
Special
You can gain Extra Turning multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.
Just adding a little emphasis to this statement.
Yes, that is exactly what I have advocated here.
K.
You can gain Extra Turning multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.
There's still some leeway for DMs without Rule 0, since you aren't actually taking it more than once.
I avoid Nightsticks just because of this argument.(and they are pure cheese since I believe that you're probably right that if we followed this debate to it's conclusion there would be a stronger argument for them stacking)
Personally I would put my money on the cleric 9 / crusader 1 / ruby knight vindicator 10
carry a blessed vorpal longsword and a metamagic rod of quicken (4-6). Throw in somantic weaponry feat so you can wield both and cast spells. Quicken a surge of fortune, dump a turn/rebuke attempt to divine impertinous (extra swift action to make up for the quickened spell) and use the optional ability of the spell replacing the next attack with a natural 20 (and since it's blessed it auto confirms). Pop, off comes your targets head (which according to teh FAQ and rules compendium works even if the target is immune to crits). fight over unless your opponent can function without a head.
1 round instafrag (for most things anyway)
Also, I'm not building a RKV. I mean if I really wanted to, I could just build a 19th level cleric, and use XP to Gate in creatures to do my dirty work.
Obviously there are an insane number of ways to build the cleric. I decided to see if I could build a Big Stupid Fighter with a cleric that would be better than your generic non-casting based BSF. We'll just have to see on Thursday ;)
Well I wasn't about to compare Michigan to an entire country. And now that I've done my homework, I will admit that Alastar was correct. Quebec has 70K square miles of freshwater area and Michigan has 40K. Although Quebec has 500K area of land while Michigan has 50K, so at least Michigan wins in terms of concentration, hands down. Your province only wins by being crazy big.
You guys had glaciers same as us, so it does make sense that given your gigantic land mass you'd have a lot.
Anyway, I PMed Alastar my idea. It's looking like it's going to be an initiative battle.
Nah, Michigan still wins. the Great Lakes are DEEP. They hold a massive amount of the world's fresh water supply in them (25%, I think?). More surface area does not mean more fresh water.
To get the rule on this you'd have to measure cubic miles of water...i.e., volume, not top surface area. Lake Superior alone is probably more then all the non-Great Lakes in Quebec (Lake Superior is more then the rest of the Great Lakes!)
As for Minnesota....hey, we got Red Wings and Pistons, pal. And occasionally the Tigers show up to play. The Lions...well, you just got to like their colors, and pine for Billy Sanders.
The big problem with our pro sport teams is that they are all down in Detroit. Ugh.
But, hey, you can still love the Wolverines!
==Aelryinth
They hold a massive amount of the world's fresh water supply in them (25%, I think?). More surface area does not mean more fresh water.
Depends on what do you want to include in it. Some people include Antarctica to their calculations.
Depends on what do you want to include in it. Some people include Antarctica to their calculations.
Wiki says 1/3 for what it's worth.
Ahem..... I live in quebec
WE have the largest supply of fresh water in the world. We're afraid U.S.A is gonna invade us for it.
DUDE!
CANADA FTW!!
Go franco-ontariens!:P
I so is the cleric and fighter taking each taking 20 levels of their respective classes? Cause nothing hints other wise...
D-End
Way, way too many :P
PS: Did you get my PM with the build?
How many domains would that be trading in?
Way, way too many :P
PS: Did you get my PM with the build?
*rolls Bluff*
Haha. Whatever you make it will do you no good. You will learn to fear the Dwarven Cavalier dual-wielding lances on the back of a Dire Kangaroo!
It's a kangaroo, OF DOOM!!!!!
I could do it at 10AM according to the boards, but from 11am-3pm I'm busy. I could do 4pm or anytime after, though
*starts to drool with a crazy look on the eyes (no, not "that" kind of look)*
You'll be posting the logs here, right? riiiiight?
*starts to drool with a crazy look on the eyes (no, not "that" kind of look)*
Yes.
Power to the underdog!!!!
Also, you said fighter/wizard guy, but you're not allowed casting classes. Hope you aren't trying to cheat ;)
IRC. #co-duel is the name of the channel and it will be created to QuakeNet's server.
The reason why I asked for a link is because, as predicted, I can't find it. Heck I can't find ANY channels.
Edit: as illogical as it is, going to QuakeNets actual site wasn't helpful, but found it anyway.
The reason why I asked for a link is because, as predicted, I can't find it. Heck I can't find ANY channels.
Edit: as illogical as it is, going to QuakeNets actual site wasn't helpful, but found it anyway.
for others: irc://irc.quaknet.org/co-duel (I think this will work with Mirc, at least)
Aftercrescent, mind putting these logs to the OP?
Logs
[22:06] http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2/Tshern/duel.jpg
[22:06] That is the map.
[22:06] Alastar might've seen it before...
[22:06] ''might''
[22:07] I saw it in the clr/dr battle
[22:07] http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/
[22:07] That is the roller.
[22:07] Please use nicknames Alastar and After.
[22:07] good
[22:07] ok
[22:07] You probably can tell which one is for you.
[22:08] where am i?
[22:08] on the map
[22:08] Alastar starts at N5.
[22:08] Linguon starts around square B10.
[22:08] Depending on his size.
[22:09] linguon?
[22:09] linguon?
[22:09] Typo.
[22:09] ah
[22:09] It was the name from the character sheet.
[22:09] Which seems to be Lingun.
[22:09] That's my name i think
[22:09] yeah, mine's bob
[22:09] Gate Lingun
[22:09] Oh yeah.
[22:09] Sorry peeps.
[22:10] it's cool
[22:10] Several things going on.
[22:10] Including two cousins spamming me.
[22:10] Bob's medium to start, so B10?
[22:10] freaking cousins
[22:10] are they hawt?
[22:10] B10 it is.
[22:10] bingo
[22:10] These particular ones are male, though pretty good-looking anyway.
[22:11] But my female cousins do have a tendency for hawtness. They are related to me after all.
[22:11] indeed
[22:11] But to continue about the rules...
[22:11] yeeeeeesss?
[22:11] Just tell your results here, I will keep my eye on then using Invisiblecastle.
[22:11] I might miss something, but hopefully that doesn't make you cheat. Counting on you.
[22:11] there's no fun in cheating.
[22:12] And this is the moment we have been waiting for: ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!
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[22:12] 10
[22:12] 26
[22:12] sorry bout that
[22:12] damn nat 1
[22:12] 28
[22:12] sorry
[22:12] well.... i have +22, chanes were I'd win
[22:12] Chances*
[22:13] Yes.
[22:13] Found your accounts too.
[22:13] So we are set.
[22:13] good
[22:13] My turn I believe
[22:13] What's your AC aftercrescent
[22:13] It's gonna be simpler that way....
[22:14] guys?
[22:15] are you attacking? when you attack, my contingency goes off
[22:15] Yeah I'll attack you
[22:15] what's your contingency?
[22:16] He goes ethereal.
[22:16] i go ethereal. so unless you can see/hit ethereal creatures, you're out of luck
[22:16] You can see ethereal creatures
[22:16] and i do believe that's a 50% miss chance only
[22:16] that's incorpreal, I believe
[22:17] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[22:17] * altpersona_ is now known as altpersona
[22:17] Yes.
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[22:18] unless your weapon is force, it passes through me
[22:18] hahaha it's alive! (sorry for the interrupt. ;))
[22:18] lol
[22:18] kk
[22:18] wait
[22:18] how does he have etherealness as a contingency
[22:18] it's a level 9 spell
[22:18] swift ethereal isn't
[22:19] wich book?
[22:19] knew i should have gotten the force bow
[22:19] phb 2 i believe
[22:20] * mib_m1vfnhxm has joined #co-duel
[22:20] * mib_m1vfnhxm is now known as scarymike23
[22:20] that was actually my biggest fear, force ranged weapons :P
[22:20] 5th level Cleric spell.
[22:20] It's legit.
[22:21] (I told Alastar to get the Force Bow. lol)
[22:21] good
[22:21] anyways
[22:21] I shoot 10 arrows Throught him
[22:21] my turn?
[22:22] And on to After's turn we go.
[22:22] and move to O1 as a swift action (quicksilver motion)
[22:22] wait
[22:22] I also make a knowledge check, before he went etheral
[22:22] what's his type?
[22:22] humanoid
[22:22] (red-headed, good looking)
[22:22] (i'm more of a blond guy)
[22:23] he's a pot-bellied priest looking type, brown hair, eyes, deep tan
[22:23] I roll 31 on knowledge (Local) and gain +4 to hit and damage agaisnt him
[22:24] Yes.
[22:24] it's his turn
[22:25] swift action - thicket of blades, move to d10 (half speed on ethereal plane blows), standard - sudden maximize time stop
[22:25] 5 rounds.
[22:25] you don't see me
[22:25] I,m more than 60 feet from you
[22:26] I know I don't
[22:26] good
[22:26] what do you do in time stop
[22:26] buff myself to high hell
[22:27] what spells
[22:27] you want a list?
[22:27] sure
[22:28] quicken divine favor, divine power, holy transformation, quicken shield of faith, dmm quicken righteous wrath
[22:28] greater visage of the deity
[22:29] 3 standard actions used.
[22:29] quicken blessing of the righteous, miracle - giant size, dmm quicken foresight, Dimension door
[22:29] That would be all give.
[22:29] five*
[22:29] Dimension door to where?
[22:29] yup, now i take up f6-j10, armed with my colossal sized spike chain
[22:30] (how big are you after Giant Size after?)
[22:30] colossal
[22:30] dimension door to where?
[22:31] to the 5x5 square in the center of the map (F6 top left corner, J10 bottom right)
[22:31] I could have walked, but DD is more fun
[22:31] (isn't Collosal a 30 ft square?)
[22:31] ok kewl
[22:31] my turn?
[22:32] Wait, I'll check on colossal's space.
[22:32] you're right, make that e6 to j11
[22:32] 30ft.
[22:32] Meh, don,t really mind, am i in his reach?
[22:32] yeah
[22:32] Yes, adjusted as After just said.
[22:33] Good, oh noes, I,ll take an AoO
[22:33] My turn?
[22:33] yeah
[22:34] Can we go ''out of the map?
[22:35] (if you claim total cover he can't AoO you. not sure if you can full attack from that though)
[22:35] Consider the forest part starting there as difficult terrain.
[22:35] It goes on for 10ft and then the map continues plain.
[22:35] ok, I'ill sudden leap 2 squares to the left
[22:35] sudden leap?
[22:36] No checks needed, i succeed on a 1
[22:36] Maneuver
[22:36] ah, ok
[22:36] no AoO, I take it/
[22:36] *?
[22:36] (do trees provide cover against CoDzilla?)
[22:36] (no!!! run, it's CODZILLA)
[22:36] If he hides behind a tree.
[22:36] I do trigger aoO
[22:36] But he can't leap behind a tree.
[22:36] but i can tumble
[22:36] He must leap and move.
[22:36] i must not move, must I?
[22:37] I,m not taking cover anyways
[22:37] * scarymike23 has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[22:37] oh wiat, he has thicket of Blades?
[22:37] Then you do not.
[22:37] yes i do
[22:37] Hmm, sure has.
[22:37] Nvm that then
[22:37] So AoO for that leap.
[22:37] I'll just shoot the sucker
[22:37] I initiate time Stand Stills and Shoot, taking an AoO
[22:37] Go for it
[22:37] i attempt a disarm
[22:38] Must you touch me for that?
[22:38] or is it opposed attack rolls?
[22:38] Opposed rolls.
[22:38] are you medium?
[22:38] good
[22:38] yeah
[22:38] I'ma n elf
[22:39] * scarymike has joined #co-duel
[22:39] +4 bonus per each size categozy.
[22:39] and you take a -4 for not being a melee weapon
[22:39] So the difference is +20 to After's advantage.
[22:39] 72 +20 for 4 size categories and a two handed weapon =>92
[22:39] good
[22:39] where does it land?
[22:40] drops in your square
[22:40] In your square.
[22:40] as a swift action, i get a move action and pick up my bow
[22:40] I resume shooting
[22:40] You used your swift action for Sudden leap, right?
[22:40] no
[22:40] i canceled that action
[22:40] since it's useless
[22:40] Oh yeah, so it was.
[22:41] doesn't disarming force you to waste a standard, since you attacked and i disarmed?
[22:41] Since i'M aware i am in a thicket of blades, its specified in the maneuver
[22:41] no
[22:42] normally i,d have to take the standardto get it
[22:42] Says nothing like that in the description of disarming.
[22:42] sop basically, i could coninue full attacking the air with my fists
[22:42] but i instead choose to get back my bow using my belt of battles
[22:43] he attacked (either a full action or a standard) and I disarmed. that action is over now, right?
[22:43] nope
[22:43] i just have no weapon to do it
[22:43] Attack of opportunity takes place before his action.
[22:43] (he still has a move, since you choose after the first attack if you wish continue to do a full attack)
[22:44] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[22:44] (I choose to, but in the meantime, i use belt of battle to get back my bow)
[22:44] (as in, I choose to pick up my bow)
[22:44] or ok
[22:44] is it ok*
[22:44] Yes, he has wasted one of his attacks, but then he uses a swift action to activate his belt of battle, right?
[22:45] exactly, from where i,m standing at least
[22:45] ah, okay, so he's down one of his full attacks, right?
[22:45] Oh, sorry, as a free action i also activate my boots of speed
[22:45] I,m down one attack form my full attack
[22:45] okay, so 9 more attacks then?
[22:46] bit more than that....
[22:46] (just curious how dexterious 50 ft tall After is)
[22:46] does 52 hit?
[22:46] yeah
[22:47] Remember that you cannot use Time stand still now.
[22:47] yes, it's still in effect
[22:47] i just lost an attack on it
[22:47] is your weapon evil and or does it do any energy damage?
[22:47] So you initiated Time stands still?
[22:47] Did not see that anywhere.
[22:47] Oh yeah, got it.
[22:48] hehe
[22:48] ok
[22:48] my first 4 attacks hit
[22:48] going on
[22:48] (did you take my Sure Striking idea at least, Alastar?)
[22:48] (wich one)
[22:48] But activating Time stands still is an immediate action, right?
[22:48] (weapon enhancement ignores alignment-based DR)
[22:48] And you already used your swift.
[22:48] yeah, so he has no swift action for the next round
[22:49] Right.
[22:49] i have no swift action for THIS round
[22:49] does 49 hit
[22:49] I remembered you could not use both of them during the same round.
[22:49] you used the belt, that's a swift, then time stands still, immediate, which negates your swift for next round
[22:49] time stand stills, not island in time
[22:49] time stand stills is a full attack action
[22:50] Full round action*
[22:50] (that's what i get for being unfamiliar with tob :P)
[22:50] (hehe)
[22:50] Yes, I meant Island in Time.
[22:50] Sorry.
[22:50] yes the 49 hits
[22:50] (I, by the way, immediately guessed Alastar was going to use this build when he told he'll use an archer...)
[22:51] (I can't wait to see it once this is over)
[22:51] (hehehehe it's my baby)
[22:51] does 49 hit
[22:51] yeah
[22:51] is your weapon evil?
[22:51] no
[22:51] you get dr
[22:51] yup
[22:51] does it do any energy damage?
[22:51] does 43 hit?
[22:51] no
[22:51] no it doesnt
[22:51] ok, i get a +4 to all my other attacks
[22:52] what about precision damage?
[22:52] none
[22:52] (well we had After planning for a Kangaroo-riding Cavalier ;))
[22:52] What is your current stance, Alastar?
[22:52] (damn you, i had 15 counters for killing that kangaroo)
[22:52] Giant's stance, right?
[22:52] giant's stance
[22:52] ok
[22:52] so out of my first, regular 10 attacks (lost 2 due to disarm) 8 hit, 2 missed, giving me a +8 to all other attacks in the round (woodland archery)
[22:53] second full attack action
[22:53] (how are you getting 2 full attacks? is that time stands still?)
[22:53] (yeah)
[22:53] (that's hot)
[22:54] 8 next attacks (4 remaining) 1 misses due to natural 1, i get another +4
[22:54] annnnd i forgot to look for crits, damn
[22:54] im immune
[22:54] so don't worry
[22:54] nvm then
[22:55] good
[22:55] Needless to say guys, I will kill you if you make me to calculate all the damage.
[22:55] I will just choke the life out of you both
[22:55] I hit you with 19 arrows
[22:55] how much does each arrow do?
[22:55] I,ll tell you that
[22:55] in a minute
[22:56] (I suggested a daze-locking boomerang thrower but after Alastar mentioned this I was impressed enough I didn't argue further)
[22:56] (Talenta boomerang builds? Love them)
[22:56] (Actually it was the first powerbuild I have seen in 3.5. My friend built one of those and we were all amazed.)
[22:56] 685 damage
[22:56] (does immunity to stunning count against daze?)
[22:56] remove your DR x19
[22:57] each arrow does 2d8 +28
[22:57] -5 from each.
[22:57] -10 actually
[22:57] dr 10/evil
[22:57] (So do I-I would have even gotten him 150 ft range increment. and no, immunity to stunning is not immunity against Daze)
[22:57] 495 damage
[22:57] still standing?
[22:58] No.
[22:58] hold on, i got some options
[22:58] as in?
[22:58] (I'm waiting for his Contingency to go off)
[22:59] (it already did)
[22:59] what's the enhancement bonus on your bow?
[22:59] +8
[22:59] (oh...unless Craft Contingent Spell is allowed, he's hosed)
[23:00] * river_ has joined #co-duel
[23:00] damn
[23:00] That's the effective one.
[23:00] tried my arrow deflecting shield
[23:00] nope, sorry
[23:00] yeah, im down
[23:01] how's you get the +28 damage?
[23:01] Gate Lingun lets out a pean of victory and says in an asiatic voice: I KILLED CODZILLA
[23:01] best 2 of 3 remember? ;)
[23:02] +10 strenght +8 enhancement +2 weaponfspec, +2 ranged weapon spec, +1 point blank shot +4 knowledge devotion
[23:02] (half his damage was strength, if I recall. 5 is Collision, 4 is knowledge devotion)
[23:02] (the rest...enhancement?)
[23:02] (damn man, i forgot to get a collison bow, is uck)
[23:02] haha, well done
[23:02] ( I suck)
[23:02] * altpersona has joined #co-duel
[23:02] round 2?
[23:02] sure, but i might have to leave a bit before the end
[23:03] we replace ourselves?
[23:03] Huh?
[23:03] Round two yes, not sure what Alastar meant by replacing.
[23:03] Good duel.
[23:03] same starting points, i think
[23:03] 25 init
[23:03] so, can a fella get a quick review of round 1
[23:03] I,ll roll
[23:04] 30 init
[23:04] i saw, attack, ethereal, timebuff
[23:04] (disarm, rearm, full attack by archer, cleric dead)
[23:04] * river_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[23:05] i believe you're up, Al
[23:05] Alastar Time Stand Stilled, attacked, got AoO Disarmed, Belt of Battled to pick up his bow and continued to rain arrowy death
[23:05] ah, okie
[23:06] 30 ini, i win i believe?
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[23:06] yeah, you're up
[23:07] (what's your Fort save mod, After? just curious how a boomerang lock would have faired)
[23:07] Knowledge devotion: i get +2 to attack and damage
[23:07] +38 buffed
[23:08] (you would have failed 2/3 of the time. Against 5 or 6 attacks. Good deal. Carry on then.)
[23:08] I shoot a single arrow at you, activate my boots of speed and move 60 feet to the left, to 0 -1
[23:08] as a swift action, i use my blade spirit to know your weaknesses, and you get no DR agaisnt me for the rest of the encounter
[23:08] the arrow triggers your contingency
[23:09] And his Contingency kicks in.
[23:09] is that an instant effect or does it last a certain number of round?
[23:09] lemme check
[23:10] for the rest of my turn
[23:10] nvm, i don't do that
[23:10] well
[23:10] i do
[23:10] lol, ok
[23:10] but it serves nothing
[23:10] i chat with my blade spirit, he tells me i'm hawt and i can do it, giving me confidence in myself
[23:11] unfortunately, confidence gives no bonuses when it isnt done by a bard
[23:11] thicket, move to d10, max time stop again
[23:12] Confidence?
[23:12] Alastar, that would be +15 competence bonus.
[23:12] And +15 morale bonus.
[23:12] Good thing you got confident.
[23:13] Oh wait, no.
[23:13] indeed!
[23:14] what's your position al?
[23:14] 0 -1
[23:14] but yoiu don,t know that
[23:15] Yes, he only knows where you are, not the square.
[23:15] The land your characters stand on does not actually consist of squares.
[23:15] when i move closer during my time stop, you'll become visible
[23:15] yeah
[23:15] what do you do?
[23:16] hurry, i gtg
[23:16] :P
[23:16] * altpersona_ has joined #co-duel
[23:16] (what do you do, ye of ubers pot checks?)
[23:16] okay, buffed and airborne over directly over you.
[23:16] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[23:17] * altpersona_ is now known as altpersona
[23:17] ok kewl, doesnt change much
[23:17] (collossal sized?)
[23:17] si
[23:17] I initiate Time Stand Stills and shoot
[23:17] you get an AoO
[23:17] and my readied action goes off
[23:17] whats it do?
[23:17] i disarm your bow, rolling
[23:18] Just in case you wondered what the trigger was, it was the same you used against Archer.
[23:18] Time stop ended.
[23:18] oooooh
[23:18] k
[23:18] but hes still ethereal anyways
[23:18] isnt he?
[23:18] etherealness ends when it's my turn
[23:19] so his readied action cant be used to disarm me
[23:19] when time stop ends, my turn ends and so does the etherealness
[23:19] but etheralness lasts 1 round
[23:19] starting from when i shot you
[23:20] Well, we discussed the duration of Etherealness.
[23:20] I might've given him a crappy answer concerning it.
[23:20] So this is more of my fault and he meant to be corporeal when the action goes off.
[23:20] As far as I can tell.
[23:20] yeah, most definitely
[23:20] >>Just in case you wondered what the trigger was, it was the same you used against Archer.
[23:20] Which is what for the rest of us? ;)
[23:20] ok, well, when he pops out of time stop
[23:20] before his readied action
[23:21] immediate action
[23:21] island in time
[23:21] i gain a full round action
[23:21] (Hezor, Time stop ending)
[23:21] I initiate time stand stills, and shoot
[23:21] AoO?
[23:21] yup
[23:21] I'm taking your bow
[23:21] diarm?
[23:21] Yes.
[23:21] yeha
[23:21] *yeah
[23:21] you succeed
[23:22] He holds his chain in one hand to grab the bow in his free hand.
[23:22] swift action: quicksilver motion, i pick up my bow
[23:22] unarmed disarm? then you are holding the bow.
[23:22] (he can still roll a 1)
[23:22] okay, your bow is in my hands
[23:22] wiat a minute
[23:22] let's roll then
[23:22] 70
[23:22] you'r using a light weapon
[23:22] yeah 58+16 size-4 light =70
[23:22] agaisnt my 2 handed considered large bow
[23:23] you take the same -4 too
[23:23] your bow is not a melee, you take the penalty
[23:23] (correct)
[23:23] wait, can you take an attack of opportunity with your fist if your not proficient with them?
[23:23] (it's not the size of the bow that matters)
[23:23] and no size bonus, since those are based on the creature, not weapon
[23:23] i have gauntlets
[23:23] go fullplate of bone
[23:24] those disarm, your using unarmed strike
[23:24] to get the: i keep your weapon effect you need to use unarmed
[23:25] hurry a bit, i gtg
[23:25] roommate is looking at me evily
[23:25] i dont like that
[23:25] Smite him.
[23:25] yeah
[23:25] But as far as I know, he can disarm you using his hand.
[23:25] i will
[23:26] i can take the AoO with my gauntlet and use it as an unarmed strike
[23:26] yeah he can
[23:26] It says in the description that doing so makes the bow to appear in his hand.
[23:26] but he cant take an aoo with them
[23:26] Why not?
[23:26] hes not proficient with them
[23:26] he doens thave improved unarmed strike
[23:26] actually i am
[23:26] im an outsider now
[23:26] so he doesnt threaten with his fist
[23:26] im proficient with all natural weapons
[23:26] "If you are armed, the defender's weapon is on the ground in the defender's square"
[23:26] that doesnt give you improved unarmed strike
[23:26] but it lets me take AoO
[23:27] which lets me take an AoO with my hand and disarm you
[23:27] Skydragon: He uses his unarmed strike keeping his spiked chain in one hand.
[23:27] Thus, he can grab it.
[23:27] but his ''unarmed strike'' means he doenst have the feat''improved unarmed strike'' meaning he cant threaten an AoO with his fists
[23:28] it says "if you attempt the disarm unarmed" not unarmed strike, so I am doing it unarmed, therefore i get the bow
[23:28] ok
[23:28] well
[23:28] wtv, i'm bowless, you win that one
[23:28] i gtg
[23:28] bye
[23:28] * Alastar10 has quit IRC (Quit)
[23:28] "an attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack"
[23:28] It was not a spiked gauntlet though.
[23:29] Hmm, I suppose it ended 1/1.
[23:29] * scarymike has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[23:29] a strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed strike
[23:29] phb 118
[23:29] [commentator voice]Thanks for watching, see you next time![/commentator voice]
[22:06] That is the map.
[22:06] Alastar might've seen it before...
[22:06] ''might''
[22:07] I saw it in the clr/dr battle
[22:07] http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/
[22:07] That is the roller.
[22:07] Please use nicknames Alastar and After.
[22:07] good
[22:07] ok
[22:07] You probably can tell which one is for you.
[22:08] where am i?
[22:08] on the map
[22:08] Alastar starts at N5.
[22:08] Linguon starts around square B10.
[22:08] Depending on his size.
[22:09] linguon?
[22:09] linguon?
[22:09] Typo.
[22:09] ah
[22:09] It was the name from the character sheet.
[22:09] Which seems to be Lingun.
[22:09] That's my name i think
[22:09] yeah, mine's bob
[22:09] Gate Lingun
[22:09] Oh yeah.
[22:09] Sorry peeps.
[22:10] it's cool
[22:10] Several things going on.
[22:10] Including two cousins spamming me.
[22:10] Bob's medium to start, so B10?
[22:10] freaking cousins
[22:10] are they hawt?
[22:10] B10 it is.
[22:10] bingo
[22:10] These particular ones are male, though pretty good-looking anyway.
[22:11] But my female cousins do have a tendency for hawtness. They are related to me after all.
[22:11] indeed
[22:11] But to continue about the rules...
[22:11] yeeeeeesss?
[22:11] Just tell your results here, I will keep my eye on then using Invisiblecastle.
[22:11] I might miss something, but hopefully that doesn't make you cheat. Counting on you.
[22:11] there's no fun in cheating.
[22:12] And this is the moment we have been waiting for: ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!
[22:12] * altpersona_ has joined #co-duel
[22:12] 10
[22:12] 26
[22:12] sorry bout that
[22:12] damn nat 1
[22:12] 28
[22:12] sorry
[22:12] well.... i have +22, chanes were I'd win
[22:12] Chances*
[22:13] Yes.
[22:13] Found your accounts too.
[22:13] So we are set.
[22:13] good
[22:13] My turn I believe
[22:13] What's your AC aftercrescent
[22:13] It's gonna be simpler that way....
[22:14] guys?
[22:15] are you attacking? when you attack, my contingency goes off
[22:15] Yeah I'll attack you
[22:15] what's your contingency?
[22:16] He goes ethereal.
[22:16] i go ethereal. so unless you can see/hit ethereal creatures, you're out of luck
[22:16] You can see ethereal creatures
[22:16] and i do believe that's a 50% miss chance only
[22:16] that's incorpreal, I believe
[22:17] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[22:17] * altpersona_ is now known as altpersona
[22:17] Yes.
[22:17] * skydragon has joined #co-duel
[22:18] unless your weapon is force, it passes through me
[22:18] hahaha it's alive! (sorry for the interrupt. ;))
[22:18] lol
[22:18] kk
[22:18] wait
[22:18] how does he have etherealness as a contingency
[22:18] it's a level 9 spell
[22:18] swift ethereal isn't
[22:19] wich book?
[22:19] knew i should have gotten the force bow
[22:19] phb 2 i believe
[22:20] * mib_m1vfnhxm has joined #co-duel
[22:20] * mib_m1vfnhxm is now known as scarymike23
[22:20] that was actually my biggest fear, force ranged weapons :P
[22:20] 5th level Cleric spell.
[22:20] It's legit.
[22:21] (I told Alastar to get the Force Bow. lol)
[22:21] good
[22:21] anyways
[22:21] I shoot 10 arrows Throught him
[22:21] my turn?
[22:22] And on to After's turn we go.
[22:22] and move to O1 as a swift action (quicksilver motion)
[22:22] wait
[22:22] I also make a knowledge check, before he went etheral
[22:22] what's his type?
[22:22] humanoid
[22:22] (red-headed, good looking)
[22:22] (i'm more of a blond guy)
[22:23] he's a pot-bellied priest looking type, brown hair, eyes, deep tan
[22:23] I roll 31 on knowledge (Local) and gain +4 to hit and damage agaisnt him
[22:24] Yes.
[22:24] it's his turn
[22:25] swift action - thicket of blades, move to d10 (half speed on ethereal plane blows), standard - sudden maximize time stop
[22:25] 5 rounds.
[22:25] you don't see me
[22:25] I,m more than 60 feet from you
[22:26] I know I don't
[22:26] good
[22:26] what do you do in time stop
[22:26] buff myself to high hell
[22:27] what spells
[22:27] you want a list?
[22:27] sure
[22:28] quicken divine favor, divine power, holy transformation, quicken shield of faith, dmm quicken righteous wrath
[22:28] greater visage of the deity
[22:29] 3 standard actions used.
[22:29] quicken blessing of the righteous, miracle - giant size, dmm quicken foresight, Dimension door
[22:29] That would be all give.
[22:29] five*
[22:29] Dimension door to where?
[22:29] yup, now i take up f6-j10, armed with my colossal sized spike chain
[22:30] (how big are you after Giant Size after?)
[22:30] colossal
[22:30] dimension door to where?
[22:31] to the 5x5 square in the center of the map (F6 top left corner, J10 bottom right)
[22:31] I could have walked, but DD is more fun
[22:31] (isn't Collosal a 30 ft square?)
[22:31] ok kewl
[22:31] my turn?
[22:32] Wait, I'll check on colossal's space.
[22:32] you're right, make that e6 to j11
[22:32] 30ft.
[22:32] Meh, don,t really mind, am i in his reach?
[22:32] yeah
[22:32] Yes, adjusted as After just said.
[22:33] Good, oh noes, I,ll take an AoO
[22:33] My turn?
[22:33] yeah
[22:34] Can we go ''out of the map?
[22:35] (if you claim total cover he can't AoO you. not sure if you can full attack from that though)
[22:35] Consider the forest part starting there as difficult terrain.
[22:35] It goes on for 10ft and then the map continues plain.
[22:35] ok, I'ill sudden leap 2 squares to the left
[22:35] sudden leap?
[22:36] No checks needed, i succeed on a 1
[22:36] Maneuver
[22:36] ah, ok
[22:36] no AoO, I take it/
[22:36] *?
[22:36] (do trees provide cover against CoDzilla?)
[22:36] (no!!! run, it's CODZILLA)
[22:36] If he hides behind a tree.
[22:36] I do trigger aoO
[22:36] But he can't leap behind a tree.
[22:36] but i can tumble
[22:36] He must leap and move.
[22:36] i must not move, must I?
[22:37] I,m not taking cover anyways
[22:37] * scarymike23 has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[22:37] oh wiat, he has thicket of Blades?
[22:37] Then you do not.
[22:37] yes i do
[22:37] Hmm, sure has.
[22:37] Nvm that then
[22:37] So AoO for that leap.
[22:37] I'll just shoot the sucker
[22:37] I initiate time Stand Stills and Shoot, taking an AoO
[22:37] Go for it
[22:37] i attempt a disarm
[22:38] Must you touch me for that?
[22:38] or is it opposed attack rolls?
[22:38] Opposed rolls.
[22:38] are you medium?
[22:38] good
[22:38] yeah
[22:38] I'ma n elf
[22:39] * scarymike has joined #co-duel
[22:39] +4 bonus per each size categozy.
[22:39] and you take a -4 for not being a melee weapon
[22:39] So the difference is +20 to After's advantage.
[22:39] 72 +20 for 4 size categories and a two handed weapon =>92
[22:39] good
[22:39] where does it land?
[22:40] drops in your square
[22:40] In your square.
[22:40] as a swift action, i get a move action and pick up my bow
[22:40] I resume shooting
[22:40] You used your swift action for Sudden leap, right?
[22:40] no
[22:40] i canceled that action
[22:40] since it's useless
[22:40] Oh yeah, so it was.
[22:41] doesn't disarming force you to waste a standard, since you attacked and i disarmed?
[22:41] Since i'M aware i am in a thicket of blades, its specified in the maneuver
[22:41] no
[22:42] normally i,d have to take the standardto get it
[22:42] Says nothing like that in the description of disarming.
[22:42] sop basically, i could coninue full attacking the air with my fists
[22:42] but i instead choose to get back my bow using my belt of battles
[22:43] he attacked (either a full action or a standard) and I disarmed. that action is over now, right?
[22:43] nope
[22:43] i just have no weapon to do it
[22:43] Attack of opportunity takes place before his action.
[22:43] (he still has a move, since you choose after the first attack if you wish continue to do a full attack)
[22:44] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[22:44] (I choose to, but in the meantime, i use belt of battle to get back my bow)
[22:44] (as in, I choose to pick up my bow)
[22:44] or ok
[22:44] is it ok*
[22:44] Yes, he has wasted one of his attacks, but then he uses a swift action to activate his belt of battle, right?
[22:45] exactly, from where i,m standing at least
[22:45] ah, okay, so he's down one of his full attacks, right?
[22:45] Oh, sorry, as a free action i also activate my boots of speed
[22:45] I,m down one attack form my full attack
[22:45] okay, so 9 more attacks then?
[22:46] bit more than that....
[22:46] (just curious how dexterious 50 ft tall After is)
[22:46] does 52 hit?
[22:46] yeah
[22:47] Remember that you cannot use Time stand still now.
[22:47] yes, it's still in effect
[22:47] i just lost an attack on it
[22:47] is your weapon evil and or does it do any energy damage?
[22:47] So you initiated Time stands still?
[22:47] Did not see that anywhere.
[22:47] Oh yeah, got it.
[22:48] hehe
[22:48] ok
[22:48] my first 4 attacks hit
[22:48] going on
[22:48] (did you take my Sure Striking idea at least, Alastar?)
[22:48] (wich one)
[22:48] But activating Time stands still is an immediate action, right?
[22:48] (weapon enhancement ignores alignment-based DR)
[22:48] And you already used your swift.
[22:48] yeah, so he has no swift action for the next round
[22:49] Right.
[22:49] i have no swift action for THIS round
[22:49] does 49 hit
[22:49] I remembered you could not use both of them during the same round.
[22:49] you used the belt, that's a swift, then time stands still, immediate, which negates your swift for next round
[22:49] time stand stills, not island in time
[22:49] time stand stills is a full attack action
[22:50] Full round action*
[22:50] (that's what i get for being unfamiliar with tob :P)
[22:50] (hehe)
[22:50] Yes, I meant Island in Time.
[22:50] Sorry.
[22:50] yes the 49 hits
[22:50] (I, by the way, immediately guessed Alastar was going to use this build when he told he'll use an archer...)
[22:51] (I can't wait to see it once this is over)
[22:51] (hehehehe it's my baby)
[22:51] does 49 hit
[22:51] yeah
[22:51] is your weapon evil?
[22:51] no
[22:51] you get dr
[22:51] yup
[22:51] does it do any energy damage?
[22:51] does 43 hit?
[22:51] no
[22:51] no it doesnt
[22:51] ok, i get a +4 to all my other attacks
[22:52] what about precision damage?
[22:52] none
[22:52] (well we had After planning for a Kangaroo-riding Cavalier ;))
[22:52] What is your current stance, Alastar?
[22:52] (damn you, i had 15 counters for killing that kangaroo)
[22:52] Giant's stance, right?
[22:52] giant's stance
[22:52] ok
[22:52] so out of my first, regular 10 attacks (lost 2 due to disarm) 8 hit, 2 missed, giving me a +8 to all other attacks in the round (woodland archery)
[22:53] second full attack action
[22:53] (how are you getting 2 full attacks? is that time stands still?)
[22:53] (yeah)
[22:53] (that's hot)
[22:54] 8 next attacks (4 remaining) 1 misses due to natural 1, i get another +4
[22:54] annnnd i forgot to look for crits, damn
[22:54] im immune
[22:54] so don't worry
[22:54] nvm then
[22:55] good
[22:55] Needless to say guys, I will kill you if you make me to calculate all the damage.
[22:55] I will just choke the life out of you both
[22:55] I hit you with 19 arrows
[22:55] how much does each arrow do?
[22:55] I,ll tell you that
[22:55] in a minute
[22:56] (I suggested a daze-locking boomerang thrower but after Alastar mentioned this I was impressed enough I didn't argue further)
[22:56] (Talenta boomerang builds? Love them)
[22:56] (Actually it was the first powerbuild I have seen in 3.5. My friend built one of those and we were all amazed.)
[22:56] 685 damage
[22:56] (does immunity to stunning count against daze?)
[22:56] remove your DR x19
[22:57] each arrow does 2d8 +28
[22:57] -5 from each.
[22:57] -10 actually
[22:57] dr 10/evil
[22:57] (So do I-I would have even gotten him 150 ft range increment. and no, immunity to stunning is not immunity against Daze)
[22:57] 495 damage
[22:57] still standing?
[22:58] No.
[22:58] hold on, i got some options
[22:58] as in?
[22:58] (I'm waiting for his Contingency to go off)
[22:59] (it already did)
[22:59] what's the enhancement bonus on your bow?
[22:59] +8
[22:59] (oh...unless Craft Contingent Spell is allowed, he's hosed)
[23:00] * river_ has joined #co-duel
[23:00] damn
[23:00] That's the effective one.
[23:00] tried my arrow deflecting shield
[23:00] nope, sorry
[23:00] yeah, im down
[23:01] how's you get the +28 damage?
[23:01] Gate Lingun lets out a pean of victory and says in an asiatic voice: I KILLED CODZILLA
[23:01] best 2 of 3 remember? ;)
[23:02] +10 strenght +8 enhancement +2 weaponfspec, +2 ranged weapon spec, +1 point blank shot +4 knowledge devotion
[23:02] (half his damage was strength, if I recall. 5 is Collision, 4 is knowledge devotion)
[23:02] (the rest...enhancement?)
[23:02] (damn man, i forgot to get a collison bow, is uck)
[23:02] haha, well done
[23:02] ( I suck)
[23:02] * altpersona has joined #co-duel
[23:02] round 2?
[23:02] sure, but i might have to leave a bit before the end
[23:03] we replace ourselves?
[23:03] Huh?
[23:03] Round two yes, not sure what Alastar meant by replacing.
[23:03] Good duel.
[23:03] same starting points, i think
[23:03] 25 init
[23:03] so, can a fella get a quick review of round 1
[23:03] I,ll roll
[23:04] 30 init
[23:04] i saw, attack, ethereal, timebuff
[23:04] (disarm, rearm, full attack by archer, cleric dead)
[23:04] * river_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[23:05] i believe you're up, Al
[23:05] Alastar Time Stand Stilled, attacked, got AoO Disarmed, Belt of Battled to pick up his bow and continued to rain arrowy death
[23:05] ah, okie
[23:06] 30 ini, i win i believe?
[23:06] * Hezor has joined #co-duel
[23:06] yeah, you're up
[23:07] (what's your Fort save mod, After? just curious how a boomerang lock would have faired)
[23:07] Knowledge devotion: i get +2 to attack and damage
[23:07] +38 buffed
[23:08] (you would have failed 2/3 of the time. Against 5 or 6 attacks. Good deal. Carry on then.)
[23:08] I shoot a single arrow at you, activate my boots of speed and move 60 feet to the left, to 0 -1
[23:08] as a swift action, i use my blade spirit to know your weaknesses, and you get no DR agaisnt me for the rest of the encounter
[23:08] the arrow triggers your contingency
[23:09] And his Contingency kicks in.
[23:09] is that an instant effect or does it last a certain number of round?
[23:09] lemme check
[23:10] for the rest of my turn
[23:10] nvm, i don't do that
[23:10] well
[23:10] i do
[23:10] lol, ok
[23:10] but it serves nothing
[23:10] i chat with my blade spirit, he tells me i'm hawt and i can do it, giving me confidence in myself
[23:11] unfortunately, confidence gives no bonuses when it isnt done by a bard
[23:11] thicket, move to d10, max time stop again
[23:12] Confidence?
[23:12] Alastar, that would be +15 competence bonus.
[23:12] And +15 morale bonus.
[23:12] Good thing you got confident.
[23:13] Oh wait, no.
[23:13] indeed!
[23:14] what's your position al?
[23:14] 0 -1
[23:14] but yoiu don,t know that
[23:15] Yes, he only knows where you are, not the square.
[23:15] The land your characters stand on does not actually consist of squares.
[23:15] when i move closer during my time stop, you'll become visible
[23:15] yeah
[23:15] what do you do?
[23:16] hurry, i gtg
[23:16] :P
[23:16] * altpersona_ has joined #co-duel
[23:16] (what do you do, ye of ubers pot checks?)
[23:16] okay, buffed and airborne over directly over you.
[23:16] * altpersona has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[23:17] * altpersona_ is now known as altpersona
[23:17] ok kewl, doesnt change much
[23:17] (collossal sized?)
[23:17] si
[23:17] I initiate Time Stand Stills and shoot
[23:17] you get an AoO
[23:17] and my readied action goes off
[23:17] whats it do?
[23:17] i disarm your bow, rolling
[23:18] Just in case you wondered what the trigger was, it was the same you used against Archer.
[23:18] Time stop ended.
[23:18] oooooh
[23:18] k
[23:18] but hes still ethereal anyways
[23:18] isnt he?
[23:18] etherealness ends when it's my turn
[23:19] so his readied action cant be used to disarm me
[23:19] when time stop ends, my turn ends and so does the etherealness
[23:19] but etheralness lasts 1 round
[23:19] starting from when i shot you
[23:20] Well, we discussed the duration of Etherealness.
[23:20] I might've given him a crappy answer concerning it.
[23:20] So this is more of my fault and he meant to be corporeal when the action goes off.
[23:20] As far as I can tell.
[23:20] yeah, most definitely
[23:20] >>Just in case you wondered what the trigger was, it was the same you used against Archer.
[23:20] Which is what for the rest of us? ;)
[23:20] ok, well, when he pops out of time stop
[23:20] before his readied action
[23:21] immediate action
[23:21] island in time
[23:21] i gain a full round action
[23:21] (Hezor, Time stop ending)
[23:21] I initiate time stand stills, and shoot
[23:21] AoO?
[23:21] yup
[23:21] I'm taking your bow
[23:21] diarm?
[23:21] Yes.
[23:21] yeha
[23:21] *yeah
[23:21] you succeed
[23:22] He holds his chain in one hand to grab the bow in his free hand.
[23:22] swift action: quicksilver motion, i pick up my bow
[23:22] unarmed disarm? then you are holding the bow.
[23:22] (he can still roll a 1)
[23:22] okay, your bow is in my hands
[23:22] wiat a minute
[23:22] let's roll then
[23:22] 70
[23:22] you'r using a light weapon
[23:22] yeah 58+16 size-4 light =70
[23:22] agaisnt my 2 handed considered large bow
[23:23] you take the same -4 too
[23:23] your bow is not a melee, you take the penalty
[23:23] (correct)
[23:23] wait, can you take an attack of opportunity with your fist if your not proficient with them?
[23:23] (it's not the size of the bow that matters)
[23:23] and no size bonus, since those are based on the creature, not weapon
[23:23] i have gauntlets
[23:23] go fullplate of bone
[23:24] those disarm, your using unarmed strike
[23:24] to get the: i keep your weapon effect you need to use unarmed
[23:25] hurry a bit, i gtg
[23:25] roommate is looking at me evily
[23:25] i dont like that
[23:25] Smite him.
[23:25] yeah
[23:25] But as far as I know, he can disarm you using his hand.
[23:25] i will
[23:26] i can take the AoO with my gauntlet and use it as an unarmed strike
[23:26] yeah he can
[23:26] It says in the description that doing so makes the bow to appear in his hand.
[23:26] but he cant take an aoo with them
[23:26] Why not?
[23:26] hes not proficient with them
[23:26] he doens thave improved unarmed strike
[23:26] actually i am
[23:26] im an outsider now
[23:26] so he doesnt threaten with his fist
[23:26] im proficient with all natural weapons
[23:26] "If you are armed, the defender's weapon is on the ground in the defender's square"
[23:26] that doesnt give you improved unarmed strike
[23:26] but it lets me take AoO
[23:27] which lets me take an AoO with my hand and disarm you
[23:27] Skydragon: He uses his unarmed strike keeping his spiked chain in one hand.
[23:27] Thus, he can grab it.
[23:27] but his ''unarmed strike'' means he doenst have the feat''improved unarmed strike'' meaning he cant threaten an AoO with his fists
[23:28] it says "if you attempt the disarm unarmed" not unarmed strike, so I am doing it unarmed, therefore i get the bow
[23:28] ok
[23:28] well
[23:28] wtv, i'm bowless, you win that one
[23:28] i gtg
[23:28] bye
[23:28] * Alastar10 has quit IRC (Quit)
[23:28] "an attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack"
[23:28] It was not a spiked gauntlet though.
[23:29] Hmm, I suppose it ended 1/1.
[23:29] * scarymike has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[23:29] a strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed strike
[23:29] phb 118
[23:29] [commentator voice]Thanks for watching, see you next time![/commentator voice]
Bob The Cleric-y Guy
You're up Alastar. I'll post 'em to the front page too.
Are you guys going to get the 3rd fight or this is gonna be like this? If yes, then I bet 10 bucks on the Fighter :D
....don't mind me.
Not to mention average damage as it stands for the cleric is 440 + 5 Con damage here's mine
I don't mind taking over round 3 again. I believe i could win round 3 if i'm allowed to modify some mundane items in my build.
You have to full attack me to do that damage sir, i tend to be mobile.
Am I allowed to buy single arrows? as in, not a 50 stack.
And that's what stand still and thicket is for, so you stop being so mobile ;)
5 Apparent Rounds: Each round move closer
1. Quicken Divine Favor, Divine Power
2. Holy Transformation, Quickened Shield of Faith
3. DMM Quickened Righteous Wrath, Visage of the Deity, Greater
4. Quickened Blessing of the Righteous, Miracle Giant Size
5. DMM Quicken Foresight, Either DD or ready an action
6. Quicken prayer, full attack.
And in the spirit of fairness, if I modify around 500 gp of mundane stuff in my build, I will let you do the same, you can get 500gp of mundane stuff.
Round 1 - Sudden Maximize Timestop
5 Apparent Rounds: Each round move closer
1. Quicken Divine Favor, Divine Power
2. Holy Transformation, Quickened Shield of Faith
3. DMM Quickened Righteous Wrath, Visage of the Deity, Greater
4. Quickened Blessing of the Righteous, Miracle Giant Size
5. DMM Quicken Foresight, Either DD or ready an action
6. Quicken prayer, full attack.
Wait, nothing Persistent? What happened to all that theory with DMM: Persistent and multiple days? Not even Persistent Consumptive Field?
Besides, with a Strength score that high you might as well grapple and pin him.
tuesday works fine, do we tweak the builds a bit or not?
You insult me if you think i did not foresee the grapple thing.
I was talking to your opponent. And while being able to grapple you might be difficult, once you're in the grapple you can't deny that much of your effectiveness drops. (Most weapons are unusable in grapple, along with all martial maneuvers.)
Alastar, are we full on tweaking or are we just doing a 500gp shuffle? Whatever you decide just let me know and I'll get on it.
I was talking to your opponent. And while being able to grapple you might be difficult,)
I'm sure he knew you were talking to his opponent. I'd guess what he means is "You think I'm too stupid to not have a Ring of Freedom of Movement?".
The cleric could Dispel the ring and then grapple him, but he'd have to wait till the Time Stop was over, which opens up the possibility of the fighter killing him before he even gets the grapple started. Yeah, grappling might work, but it certainly isn't a sure bet at this level, when everyone and their mother has FoM.
You might as well tell the archer to buy an Anti-Magic Torc and really turn the tables on him when all his buffs go poof. It'd be even funnier if it came with a DC 40 lock and a good attack roll let him put it around the cleric's neck.
===Aelryinth
The Ring is doubtless under a Gauntlet and completely untargetable. Not a good option.
You might as well tell the archer to buy an Anti-Magic Torc and really turn the tables on him when all his buffs go poof. It'd be even funnier if it came with a DC 40 lock and a good attack roll let him put it around the cleric's neck.
===Aelryinth
This wouldn't even work if the Cleric decided to play according to his true strengths rather than going melee. Whether or not he loses initiative doesn't matter because of Contingency and summons would just kill whoever is trying to abuse the AMF.
We're still on for tomorrow at 4 right?
We all know each others tricks now, let's make things challenging and work things out a bit.
same rules too.
Let's keep the ''essence'' of the build similar.
Be there
Same bat-channel
Same bat-Time
Gate Lingun, archer extraordinaire will be waiting for YOU
That being said, i got 3000gp left, any suggestions of weak magic items I could buy?
Purple Pimpin Hat
This purple panama hat grants a +5 competence bonus on the wearer’s Profession: Pimp checks.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor; Price 2,500 gp.
A purple pimpin' hat?
Purple Pimpin Hat
This purple panama hat grants a +5 competence bonus on the wearer’s Profession: Pimp checks.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor; Price 2,500 gp.
Multiply the price by ten. Also, having items like that tells nothing of the power of the build, just like CoIs.
See ya guys in less than an hour.
let us know how that goes again plz
last time was exciting, also I won a bet with some friends (yay for the underdog!!!)
yeah lets do that again... (my bet last time was that the Fighter could win at least 1, the looser had to shave his head, and I made this bet with 4 different guys... they where so mad when each found out. :D )
Go Alastar!
Now you realise I can't lose to you AC.
More shaved heads depend on me.
NOW I SHOW MY TRUE FORMMMMMMMMMM (anime light flashing)
I'm on IRC early. My class got cancelled. Bring it Alastar ;)
Is the channel up yet?
I mainly wanted to try out my gatling bow build agaisn't a tough opponent, and it did pretty well.
Wanna try this again fighter 20 vs cleric 20?
Also: First post updated with round 3 summary...
Sorry for being such a rules freak, but I honestly felt that the whole crowd was leering towards the cleric and it ****** me off. Losing cause of 9 damage more then it could take on my bow is annoying, so i tried other venues, and i felt everyone opposing me because : OMG HES NOT SHOOTING A BOW AND HES AN ARCHER, KILL HIM!
And by the way AC: if you consider a weapon a 1 trick, yes, a fighter, the whole lot of them, are one trick ponies, but then again, so are clerics, because their one trick is spells and if i had made a battlefield control/lockdown build with an AMF torq i would have won here, does that make you a 1 trick pony? no, it makes you somehow who can be thwarted by a very focused effort in one direction thought. That's what the sunder was, i did everything that was possible (except hardness, but i didn't know about that) to prevent sundering my bow, and it didn't work out because you had way too much strenght. Being called a oine trick pony insults me, and yes it did **** me off.
And yes. I stand by my one trick pony comment. You had a bow. That's it. You had stances and maneuvers, but really all you had was more options to shoot me with your bow. I had 3 weapons, trips, sunders, disarms, ability damage spells, summons, buffs, etc. I could adapt him to any situation. I respect that you tried to use the arrows at the end, but so much was riding on your bow.
Initiate of Mystra. Your AMFs don't work on me.
And yes. I stand by my one trick pony comment. You had a bow. That's it. You had stances and maneuvers, but really all you had was more options to shoot me with your bow. I had 3 weapons, trips, sunders, disarms, ability damage spells, summons, buffs, etc. I could adapt him to any situation. I respect that you tried to use the arrows at the end, but so much was riding on your bow.
For some reason the board does not allow me to post the logs, whines something about them containing too many images though there are none. If someone wants them here, I will try again tomorrow.
If anything, I say the winner would be who tried to breack fewer rules in the middle of all of this. Geting power from cheating isn't power at all.
And next time the peanut gallery should get a separate chat room.
Sundering the fighter's weapon is the oldest trick around. Might not be essential to protect against it in a campaign, but in a duel you should have seen that it would be one of the cleric's main tactics.
And next time the peanut gallery should get a separate chat room.
We finally did get a seperate chat room midway through game 3.
And to be fair...Alastar's weapon had 90 HP and a hardness of 23, making it adamantine-proof. The Cleric's average damage for that attack was 111.5, which can sunder the weapon almost half the time. This time he happened to roll above average and the bow broke.
There's no "fool-proof" defenses against sunder when you're up against damage like that(I don't think artifact bows are allowed in duels). Two hits will kill any non-epic weapon. One would kill 98% of them.
Even Gloves of Storing(assuming it works) doesn't protect on an AoO sunder for shooting.
I don't know the cost of his bow though, probably not feasible
its not fool proof, but when confronted with, 'i sunder' the proper response is, 'i 5ft step'
Yeah that might have worked if I wasn't colossal size and threatening 30' out in every direction from him.
Originally I wanted to take part in this duel, I'm not sure if I can add anything to the point to be made now. Any build I make will be mostly cleric. It won't be good, so I'll have more strength and more HP - and no defence against AMF. Contingent swift etherealness seems very sweet, but I won't take it.
Alastar, is there any point for me in finishing a build? I don't see any point in optimising against your archer build, because that was not was I was trying to prove. Do you have anything else up your sleeve you want to try out?
i just wanted to see how gate lingun the gatling bow would fare agaisnt a tought opponent, and he's a good example of fighters, althought different.
Human Cleric 20
power attack/extend
initiate of mystra
persist
dmm persist
rest of the feats are open
Its not really a competition at that point. Either use nightsticks or extra turning if you're not into those. Mind you, I'm not trying to attack or offend you, It's just that spells >> physical combat, even if the spells are just buffing.
Well i have to push for the rules that help wariors to be enforced as well, because everyone on these boards think they're so great doesnt mean casters should get all the chances.
Sorry for being such a rules freak, but I honestly felt that the whole crowd was leering towards the cleric and it ****** me off. Losing cause of 9 damage more then it could take on my bow is annoying, so i tried other venues, and i felt everyone opposing me because : OMG HES NOT SHOOTING A BOW AND HES AN ARCHER, KILL HIM!
And by the way AC: if you consider a weapon a 1 trick, yes, a fighter, the whole lot of them, are one trick ponies, but then again, so are clerics, because their one trick is spells and if i had made a battlefield control/lockdown build with an AMF torq i would have won here, does that make you a 1 trick pony? no, it makes you somehow who can be thwarted by a very focused effort in one direction thought. That's what the sunder was, i did everything that was possible (except hardness, but i didn't know about that) to prevent sundering my bow, and it didn't work out because you had way too much strenght. Being called a oine trick pony insults me, and yes it did **** me off.
You could have invested in a Deep Crystal bow, and had an NPC cast Hardening on it. :P
~P_X~
You should really have showed your build to the DM before the fight, and whatever complicated tactics you plan on using, otherwise the battle between titans becomes a battle between rules lawyers pointing out discrepancies to each other.
If anything, I say the winner would be who tried to breack fewer rules in the middle of all of this. Geting power from cheating isn't power at all.
Do not blame the players about this one. I just did not have the time to go through their builds because I was way too busy.
Anyway, I think both sides made some mistakes with their tactics and selections. Even the last tries of Alastar did not work out for some weird reason...
Who cares about his contingencies? Win init, snap it around his neck, and have it auto activate. By the time his contingencies activate, he's already in the AMF and they are suppressed and can't go off.
But, the fight came down to initiative, which we all knew it would. It's not a loss for the fighter at all. The cleric furthermore had to rely on DMM cheese and time stop, two of the most broken effects in the book, available at levels 17+, to be anything resembling a threat.
It's a shame the fighter didn't have a dispelling, splitting bow (splitting is also great cheese, btw). 8 or 16 or whatever level 20 dispels hitting the cleric would have ruined his buff suite, and his day.
But, it came down to init. So not a loss for the fighter (and I'm suprised he didn't have Combat Archery or whatever to avoid the AoO in the first place). I do think he should have had a means of getting out of the cleric's threat range after the first two fights made his simple tactics pretty clear, but hey, that's what you get. Actually, wasn't there a feat that let a bowman threaten the area around him? If so, Robilar's would have been a good choice, heh.
No need to finger point, Alastar, you did just fine.
===Aelryinth
He didn't have an antimagic torc, I didn't have initiate of mystra. Those points are irrelevent, and frankly were just everyone getting a little irritated, so that's why I ignored the comment, it's best not to fight over something like this *shrug*
Oh, I used time stop? OMG! How could I have done that?!?! It's not like every caster in their right mind doesn't prepare it. Come on. DMM cheese? I didn't abuse persist, nightsticks, or anything like that. I mean you're welcome to your opinion if you think the existance of DMM is cheese, but that's about as absurd as saying spells are cheesy, imo. :P
I could have persisted, hence avoiding time stop, but I tried to limit tactics generally considered "cheesy." In reality I could have just put up a wind wall or some other manner of blocking his arrows and hit him with save or dies, but that wasn't the point...
Yeah, I didn't see Initiate of Mystra on his build either.===Aelryinth
That would defeat the point of the duel anyway. I mean, an Initiate of Mystra can beat just about any other cleric.
But it wouldn't show what 99% of Clerics could do as a melee/ranged combatant that would still match or beat an optimized Fighter.
Alastar's build was in fact very effective; the only reason the Cleric won at all when Alastar won initiative was due to Contingency. Otherwise, After would have had to have won initiative to beat Alastar, or increased his half-buffed AC/HP significantly(it was already pretty good).
Aren't Weapons of Legend almost impossible to sunder?
No, Weapons of Legend are not protected from being Sundered. They are just ordinary Magic Items when targeted by a Sunder. The difference is that Weapons of Legend can be rebuilt after they are destroyed.
Anyway I have been reading this thread since the begining and one thing I can't figure out is why the cleric didn't prepare Wind Wall. Its a 3rd level spell or second with the right domain that would of just made Archery useless. Also the Sunder tactic is a good way to end the career of most fighters and in a 1 shot fight should always be used. Backup weapons should be standard gear. I don't see why the fighter didn't sunder the spiked Chain. Personally I don't know why AMF's weren't allowed. They are only 10 foot Emanations from the caster which also prevents a fighter from benefiting from magical items while one is up.
And aerilyth, all you said, i did, and more. I had 10 dispelling arrows, but only one landed after my bow was sundered.
For initiative, get a level of Contemplative for an additional domain, crank your CL to 25 for a second, Shapechange into a Gloom, cast Sign, persist Divine agility and have remember Time domain's Improved initiative. You now have an initiative of 23 (dex)+4 (Sign)+4 (Improved initiative)=31. Feel free to use all tasty initiative boosting items too. Additionally, you live within an antimagic field, cannot be surprised AND have access to Celerity.
If we start speculating, with DMM, Initiate of Mystra and good domain choices the Cleric would still win. His initiative is going to be higher if he wants so and even if not, he can use Greater anyspell to mimic Celerity while keeping Time domain's Foresight active at all times.
For initiative, get a level of Contemplative for an additional domain, crank your CL to 25 for a second, Shapechange into a Gloom, cast Sign, persist Divine agility and have remember Time domain's Improved initiative. You now have an initiative of 23 (dex)+4 (Sign)+4 (Improved initiative)=31. Feel free to use all tasty initiative boosting items too. Additionally, you live within an antimagic field, cannot be surprised AND have access to Celerity.
Initiate of Mystra is like the Super Saiyan of Clerics. Instavincibility.
No, Weapons of Legend are not protected from being Sundered. They are just ordinary Magic Items when targeted by a Sunder. The difference is that Weapons of Legend can be rebuilt after they are destroyed.
Basically, they have their hardness increased by +10.
A legacy item’s hardness is increased by 10, and its hit points are 50 or the total from materials and enhancements, whichever is higher.