Fighter variants that lose armor/shield proficiency? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fighter variants that lose armor/shield proficiency?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hogarth
Mar 30, 2009 15:02:32 I'm playing a monk-ish* character and I'm considering taking one or two levels of fighter for the bonus feats. Is there some fighter variant that trades in the armour/shield proficiencies for something useful to a monk? I looked through Surreal's list of links but the only alternate class features related to armour I found were Draconic Husk (it's still armour, so it doesn't help an unarmoured monk) and an armoured caster feature from Complete Mage (again, it still involves wearing armour). Is there anything I'm missing? The DM is pretty easy-going and would probably consider all kinds of sources.

*Note: The actual build is probably something like monk 2/sorcerer 2/fighter 2/dragon disciple/eldritch knight, and it's using Pathfinder Beta rules instead of 3.5 rules, but for sake of argument, you can assume that it's a 3.5 monk with a couple of levels of fighter.
#2
pithica
Mar 30, 2009 15:25:26 You could go Feat Rogue instead, gain trapfinding and high skills + a fighter feat. I don't know how useful that is to a monk though.

You can always just take the proficiencies then pay to have them Chaos'd or retrained away for something better later.
#3
tshern
Mar 30, 2009 15:27:13 You lose Heavy armor proficiency if you take Hit and Run variant from DotU.
#4
hogarth
Mar 30, 2009 15:38:47
You lose Heavy armor proficiency if you take Hit and Run variant from DotU.

I also saw that variant in the list I was looking at, but it requires you to be a drow, doesn't it?

(The character is an Eberron half-elf, if that matters.)
#5
ikildkenny
Mar 30, 2009 15:39:25 well ... first of all, there are tons of alternate fighters, that loose their medium and heavy armor prof. for an alternate list of feats and special abilities, mostly Dragon 310, some in 334, 323 ... special mention to the Kensai and the Pugilist.

furthermore there is the Thug from UA - but thats one's inferior even to the normal fighter ...

so mostly, you won't find really "usefull" ACFs for fighters to synergice with monks ... mostly the are rather flavor choices imho

the crystal keep indexes proof to be very usefull in cases like this
#6
hogarth
Mar 30, 2009 15:49:31 Hmmm...the Kensai might be good. Specifically, what I want from the fighter class is:
proficiency in all martial weapons (to qualify for Eldritch Knight later one)
Weapon Focus [longspear] (to qualify for Serpent Strike, in order to flurry with a longspear)

I would guess that the Kensai gives Weapon Focus, but does it give proficiency in all martial weapons?
EDIT: I just checked, and it doesn't quite seem like what I'm looking for (no Weapon Focus at level 1, flurry ability overlaps with Serpent Strike).
#7
jameswilliamogle
Mar 30, 2009 16:16:40
Hmmm...the Kensai might be good. Specifically, what I want from the fighter class is:
proficiency in all martial weapons (to qualify for Eldritch Knight later one)
Weapon Focus [longspear] (to qualify for Serpent Strike, in order to flurry with a longspear)

I would guess that the Kensai gives Weapon Focus, but does it give proficiency in all martial weapons?
EDIT: I just checked, and it doesn't quite seem like what I'm looking for (no Weapon Focus at level 1, flurry ability overlaps with Serpent Strike).

Kobold Fighter! :D RotD. Hope that helps!
#8
hogarth
Mar 30, 2009 18:53:49
Kobold Fighter! :D RotD. Hope that helps!

Interesting idea! Unfortunately, he's a half-elf. Maybe a reincarnation spell is in order... ;)
#9
acereraklives
Mar 30, 2009 23:25:12 Sounds like this might be a good time to show the DM the DoTU variant, and ask if he can house-rule a similar option for half-elves in your campaign. After all, half-drow can take the DoTU option as well.
#10
rymosrac
Mar 31, 2009 0:41:43 Anyone can take the DotU variant. It has no racial prerequisite.
#11
hogarth
Mar 31, 2009 8:53:54 Lots of good suggestions here, although none of them have really grabbed me so far.

I think what I'll do for the moment is ask the DM if I can take Serpent Strike as my level 2 monk bonus feat, and then I can take Weapon Focus with my normal level 3 feat. For the martial weapon proficiencies, I might take a level of ranger later on.

So the progression would look something like:

sorcerer 1: Stealthy (bonus), Skill Focus (Perception), Eschew Materials, Heroic Spirit
monk 1: Combat Reflexes
monk 2: Weapon Focus (longspear), Serpent Strike
monk 3:
monk 4: Action Surge
dragon disciple 1:
DD 2: Stand Still, Power Attack
DD 3:
DD 4: Overhand Chop
DD 5: Great Fortitude??
DD 6: Backswing
DD 7:
sorcerer 2: ??
ranger 1:
eldritch knight 1: Devastating Blow, Vital Strike
EK 2:
EK 3: ??
EK 4:
EK 5: Critical Focus, Blinding Critical
EK 6:
#12
tos_shai_hulud
Mar 31, 2009 9:21:21 The armor and shield proficiencies represent a total of five feats: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and Tower Shield Proficiency. A viable alternative would be something that replaces those five feats with something of equal or lesser power. What do all of these feats have in common? They are all proficiency feats. That is a very specific form of feat. You are looking for something specific, as well. Let's try to come up with something equally specific. Perhaps specific to the campaign setting. Let's look at a transitional class between Monk and Sorcerer. Clearly you are looking for a draconic heritage for your sorcerer as you are planning on going the Dragon Disciple route. Dragonmarks would be an effective measure to prepare you for your upcoming sorcerous ability. So, perhaps instead of the normal fighter, you approach your DM with the "dragonmarked" fighter. You manifest either the Least Mark of Detection or the Least Mark of Storm. You add your Dragonmarked Fighter level to your caster level for the Least Dragonmark. Additionally, for every five levels of fighter, you gain an additional use of your dragonmark. How does that sound in exchange for the armor and shield proficiencies?
#13
rypta
Mar 31, 2009 10:31:54
Anyone can take the DotU variant. It has no racial prerequisite.

Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed to be a drow for all of the DoTU class variants.
#14
sofawall
Mar 31, 2009 16:43:11
The armor and shield proficiencies represent a total of five feats: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and Tower Shield Proficiency. A viable alternative would be something that replaces those five feats with something of equal or lesser power. What do all of these feats have in common? They are all proficiency feats. That is a very specific form of feat. You are looking for something specific, as well. Let's try to come up with something equally specific. Perhaps specific to the campaign setting. Let's look at a transitional class between Monk and Sorcerer. Clearly you are looking for a draconic heritage for your sorcerer as you are planning on going the Dragon Disciple route. Dragonmarks would be an effective measure to prepare you for your upcoming sorcerous ability. So, perhaps instead of the normal fighter, you approach your DM with the "dragonmarked" fighter. You manifest either the Least Mark of Detection or the Least Mark of Storm. You add your Dragonmarked Fighter level to your caster level for the Least Dragonmark. Additionally, for every five levels of fighter, you gain an additional use of your dragonmark. How does that sound in exchange for the armor and shield proficiencies?

I'd much rather have your thing than armor proficiency, seeing as how you can make it so many armours have no ACP, so therefore no penalty to being non-proficient.

Also, just me, but if there's a way to do something within the rules, I prefer it to homebrew. It's also kinda the Char Ops purpose. Seeing what can be done within the rules.

My persona; method involves either feat retraining or embrace/shun the dark chaos (or whatever it's called). They're bonus feats, unlike the weapon profs, so they can be retrained. If using normal retraining, they can only be retrained for things you qualified at level 1, but with embrace/shun, they can be any feat you need them to be.
#15
tshern
Mar 31, 2009 16:47:18
Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed to be a drow for all of the DoTU class variants.

Nothing there says yo do, the variants have no prerequisites mentioned.
#16
rymosrac
Mar 31, 2009 17:54:34 It's a seriously awesome ACF. Heavy armor proficiency? A surprisingly small number of builds (that I've done) actually call for it that can't get it from somewhere else without too much trouble. And even then - just get the heavy armor of your choice made form mithral. Congratulations - you're now proficient.
#17
rypta
Mar 31, 2009 18:04:37
Nothing there says yo do, the variants have no prerequisites mentioned.

I suppose. Its just that it says "Drow Fighter" right above the variant description and then says "In exchange for a fighter’s access to heavy armor, a drow fighter gains strong first-strike capability." Guess I'll have to haggle with my DM a little.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hogarth Mar 30, 2009 15:02:32	I'm playing a monk-ish* character and I'm considering taking one or two levels of fighter for the bonus feats. Is there some fighter variant that trades in the armour/shield proficiencies for something useful to a monk? I looked through Surreal's list of links but the only alternate class features related to armour I found were Draconic Husk (it's still armour, so it doesn't help an unarmoured monk) and an armoured caster feature from Complete Mage (again, it still involves wearing armour). Is there anything I'm missing? The DM is pretty easy-going and would probably consider all kinds of sources. *Note: The actual build is probably something like monk 2/sorcerer 2/fighter 2/dragon disciple/eldritch knight, and it's using Pathfinder Beta rules instead of 3.5 rules, but for sake of argument, you can assume that it's a 3.5 monk with a couple of levels of fighter.
#2 pithica Mar 30, 2009 15:25:26	You could go Feat Rogue instead, gain trapfinding and high skills + a fighter feat. I don't know how useful that is to a monk though. You can always just take the proficiencies then pay to have them Chaos'd or retrained away for something better later.
#3 tshern Mar 30, 2009 15:27:13	You lose Heavy armor proficiency if you take Hit and Run variant from DotU.
#4 hogarth Mar 30, 2009 15:38:47	You lose Heavy armor proficiency if you take Hit and Run variant from DotU. I also saw that variant in the list I was looking at, but it requires you to be a drow, doesn't it? (The character is an Eberron half-elf, if that matters.)
#5 ikildkenny Mar 30, 2009 15:39:25	well ... first of all, there are tons of alternate fighters, that loose their medium and heavy armor prof. for an alternate list of feats and special abilities, mostly Dragon 310, some in 334, 323 ... special mention to the Kensai and the Pugilist. furthermore there is the Thug from UA - but thats one's inferior even to the normal fighter ... so mostly, you won't find really "usefull" ACFs for fighters to synergice with monks ... mostly the are rather flavor choices imho the crystal keep indexes proof to be very usefull in cases like this
#6 hogarth Mar 30, 2009 15:49:31	Hmmm...the Kensai might be good. Specifically, what I want from the fighter class is: proficiency in all martial weapons (to qualify for Eldritch Knight later one) Weapon Focus [longspear] (to qualify for Serpent Strike, in order to flurry with a longspear) I would guess that the Kensai gives Weapon Focus, but does it give proficiency in all martial weapons? EDIT: I just checked, and it doesn't quite seem like what I'm looking for (no Weapon Focus at level 1, flurry ability overlaps with Serpent Strike).
#7 jameswilliamogle Mar 30, 2009 16:16:40	Hmmm...the Kensai might be good. Specifically, what I want from the fighter class is: proficiency in all martial weapons (to qualify for Eldritch Knight later one) Weapon Focus [longspear] (to qualify for Serpent Strike, in order to flurry with a longspear) I would guess that the Kensai gives Weapon Focus, but does it give proficiency in all martial weapons? EDIT: I just checked, and it doesn't quite seem like what I'm looking for (no Weapon Focus at level 1, flurry ability overlaps with Serpent Strike). Kobold Fighter! :D RotD. Hope that helps!
#8 hogarth Mar 30, 2009 18:53:49	Kobold Fighter! :D RotD. Hope that helps! Interesting idea! Unfortunately, he's a half-elf. Maybe a reincarnation spell is in order... ;)
#9 acereraklives Mar 30, 2009 23:25:12	Sounds like this might be a good time to show the DM the DoTU variant, and ask if he can house-rule a similar option for half-elves in your campaign. After all, half-drow can take the DoTU option as well.
#10 rymosrac Mar 31, 2009 0:41:43	Anyone can take the DotU variant. It has no racial prerequisite.
#11 hogarth Mar 31, 2009 8:53:54	Lots of good suggestions here, although none of them have really grabbed me so far. I think what I'll do for the moment is ask the DM if I can take Serpent Strike as my level 2 monk bonus feat, and then I can take Weapon Focus with my normal level 3 feat. For the martial weapon proficiencies, I might take a level of ranger later on. So the progression would look something like: sorcerer 1: Stealthy (bonus), Skill Focus (Perception), Eschew Materials, Heroic Spirit monk 1: Combat Reflexes monk 2: Weapon Focus (longspear), Serpent Strike monk 3: monk 4: Action Surge dragon disciple 1: DD 2: Stand Still, Power Attack DD 3: DD 4: Overhand Chop DD 5: Great Fortitude?? DD 6: Backswing DD 7: sorcerer 2: ?? ranger 1: eldritch knight 1: Devastating Blow, Vital Strike EK 2: EK 3: ?? EK 4: EK 5: Critical Focus, Blinding Critical EK 6:
#12 tos_shai_hulud Mar 31, 2009 9:21:21	The armor and shield proficiencies represent a total of five feats: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and Tower Shield Proficiency. A viable alternative would be something that replaces those five feats with something of equal or lesser power. What do all of these feats have in common? They are all proficiency feats. That is a very specific form of feat. You are looking for something specific, as well. Let's try to come up with something equally specific. Perhaps specific to the campaign setting. Let's look at a transitional class between Monk and Sorcerer. Clearly you are looking for a draconic heritage for your sorcerer as you are planning on going the Dragon Disciple route. Dragonmarks would be an effective measure to prepare you for your upcoming sorcerous ability. So, perhaps instead of the normal fighter, you approach your DM with the "dragonmarked" fighter. You manifest either the Least Mark of Detection or the Least Mark of Storm. You add your Dragonmarked Fighter level to your caster level for the Least Dragonmark. Additionally, for every five levels of fighter, you gain an additional use of your dragonmark. How does that sound in exchange for the armor and shield proficiencies?
#13 rypta Mar 31, 2009 10:31:54	Anyone can take the DotU variant. It has no racial prerequisite. Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed to be a drow for all of the DoTU class variants.
#14 sofawall Mar 31, 2009 16:43:11	The armor and shield proficiencies represent a total of five feats: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and Tower Shield Proficiency. A viable alternative would be something that replaces those five feats with something of equal or lesser power. What do all of these feats have in common? They are all proficiency feats. That is a very specific form of feat. You are looking for something specific, as well. Let's try to come up with something equally specific. Perhaps specific to the campaign setting. Let's look at a transitional class between Monk and Sorcerer. Clearly you are looking for a draconic heritage for your sorcerer as you are planning on going the Dragon Disciple route. Dragonmarks would be an effective measure to prepare you for your upcoming sorcerous ability. So, perhaps instead of the normal fighter, you approach your DM with the "dragonmarked" fighter. You manifest either the Least Mark of Detection or the Least Mark of Storm. You add your Dragonmarked Fighter level to your caster level for the Least Dragonmark. Additionally, for every five levels of fighter, you gain an additional use of your dragonmark. How does that sound in exchange for the armor and shield proficiencies? I'd much rather have your thing than armor proficiency, seeing as how you can make it so many armours have no ACP, so therefore no penalty to being non-proficient. Also, just me, but if there's a way to do something within the rules, I prefer it to homebrew. It's also kinda the Char Ops purpose. Seeing what can be done within the rules. My persona; method involves either feat retraining or embrace/shun the dark chaos (or whatever it's called). They're bonus feats, unlike the weapon profs, so they can be retrained. If using normal retraining, they can only be retrained for things you qualified at level 1, but with embrace/shun, they can be any feat you need them to be.
#15 tshern Mar 31, 2009 16:47:18	Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed to be a drow for all of the DoTU class variants. Nothing there says yo do, the variants have no prerequisites mentioned.
#16 rymosrac Mar 31, 2009 17:54:34	It's a seriously awesome ACF. Heavy armor proficiency? A surprisingly small number of builds (that I've done) actually call for it that can't get it from somewhere else without too much trouble. And even then - just get the heavy armor of your choice made form mithral. Congratulations - you're now proficient.
#17 rypta Mar 31, 2009 18:04:37	Nothing there says yo do, the variants have no prerequisites mentioned. I suppose. Its just that it says "Drow Fighter" right above the variant description and then says "In exchange for a fighter’s access to heavy armor, a drow fighter gains strong first-strike capability." Guess I'll have to haggle with my DM a little.