The build starts off with an emphasis on tripping, one of the more potent melee combatant tactics in 3.5. The ascent in levels is intended on accumulating multiple/additional attacks, to be used either as damage attacks or in conjunction with my foundation of trip-feats. The weapon that best suits this strategy is the Chain or Blunt Chain Link (found in OA & in Savage Species). The Chain is a mirror image of the Spiked Chain except that it does 1d6 damage, can be fought with either THF w/10' reach *or* TWF 1d6/1d6. Ergo, I had to spend an EWP feat to pick up use of the Chain. Please note, Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization feats are not desirable in this build. Once you get polymorphed and/or buffed, those attack & damage bonuses will be less emphatic anyway. This build needs feats that grant extra attacks and special attacks, something magic items & spells can rarely give you.
The addition of the TWF feat chain gives flexibility to the build, although you now fight without 10' reach. TWF has amazing synergy with the Double Hit feat and in situations where you can Karmic Strike, then Side Step 5' to remove yourself from a full-attack option from one of your foes. That Double-Hit Karmic Strike set of AoO's can then be used as 1 or 2 trip-attempts if you so desire. Imagine if that first Double Hit AoO succeeds at tripping - you then get another attack on that target in addition to the 2nd attack of your Double Hit AoO. The way combinations work, you almost *want* your opponent to hit you. And with Fighter HD, you're pretty well protected. At level 12 & higher, this combination of feats, if played right, can completely prevent any full-attack options by your opponents!
Combat Expertise at +4 AC/-4 TH also combines well with Deft Opportunist. If you have Enlarge Person cast on you, your 20' Reach becomes a massive kill/trip zone with Deft Opportunist.
Now, normally, TWF combat is sub-optimal for a non-Rogue. For this Fighter, TWF works great, because in lieu of Sneak Attack dice, you have Tripping & Double Hit opportunities. You can see this build is not about Barbarian-like damage dealing, it's all about battlefield control and defense. The defensive aspect kicks in once you get the Side Step feat at level 12. Level 12 means you should rarely ever have to deal with full-attacks from most opponents any more. And note, if you really want to make this build sing, attach the following magical properties to your primary Chain head:
1. Knockback (+3 Bonus)[MoF]
2. Sweeping (+1 Bonus)[MoF]
3. Screaming (+1 Bonus)[MoF]
Here's the build:
Hu= Jotenbrud
01= EWP: Chain (Combat Expertise)
02= (Imp. Trip)
03= Combat Reflexes
04= (Weapon Finesse)
05=
06= TWF (Imp. TWF)
07=
08= (Dodge)
09= Karmic Strike
10= (Mobility)
11=
12= Side Step (Double Hit)
13=
14= (Greater TWF)
15= Deft Opportunist
16= (Spring Attack)
17=
18= Knock-Down (Power Attack)
19=
20= (Hold The Line)
Feat Notes:
- Jotenbrud is included for its +4 to Trip attempts. The feat becomes optional if you feel you can get consistent Enlarge Person spells from your party spellcasters. Even so, it's good to have an intrinsic ability like this in Dispel Magic-heavy environments.
- Power Attack comes into the picture rather late. This is due to it being a damage-oriented feat, and not a primary focus. Besides, it works better at higher levels when your super-highly-buffed STR gives you better Power Attacking options.
- Whirlwind Attack is not a good feat for this build. Tactically savvy DM's never give you an opportunity to use it anyway.
- Imp. Initiative & Imp. Disarm never made it into the build, unfortunately. Imp. Initiative can be had via a magic item (can't recall the name at the moment).
Now, an optional variant to this build removes 4 levels of Fighter for 1 level of Knight of the Middle Circle (Combat Sense +2, Blindfight) & 3 levels of Exotic Weapon Master (Flurry, Trip Attack, & Twin Ex. Weapon Fighting). But this entails taking away 2 feats. Admittedly, this variant is stronger than Fighter-20, but I posted Fighter-20 up first because, well, I wanted to make a Fighter-20 build that actually looks unique.
Anyway, I hope someone finds it interesting. I'd love some feedback, constructive criticisms, suggestions for improvement, etc.
XO,
Snow
Initiative can be had via a magic item (can't recall the name at the moment).
Does anyone know what this item is?
Originally posted by necrosnoop110
Does anyone know what this item is?
There is the Eager weapon enhancement from the Arms and Equpment Guide. It specifically states that you don't need to have it drawn to get the benefit, so just put it on your dagger, and leave it at your hip. It grants a +2 bonus to initiative and counts as a +2 enhancement IIRC.
Also there is a similar power from OA that works about the same way, but it simply costs a flat 20k or 30k. I assume they don't stack, but that is up to your DM.
Note that if you go with the OA version and it needs to be "drawn" just put it on an armor spike.
Originally posted by necrosnoop110
Once again, snow savant awsome build
Does anyone know what this item is?
There are 2 items that grant Improved Initiative. The cheaper of the 2 is the Dragonfly Medalion from the Arms and Equipment Guide. The other is Bracers of Blinding Strike from Magic of Faerun.
Psychic warrior 11/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Ninja 3/Teflammar Shadowlord 4
Be a human.
1: Exotic Weapon Prof: Full Blade
Dodge
Improved Unarmd Strike
2: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4:
5: Knock Down
6: Defensive Throw
7:
8: Mobility
9: Great Throw
10:
11: Combat Reflexes
12: Blind FIght
13:
14:
15: Spring Attack
16:
17:
18: Power Attack
19:
20:
The main kicker in here is the Great Throw/Knockdown combo. Basically, every time you hit someone(you better be dealing at least 10 damage!) you get your free trip attempt. Hopefully you'll make the opposed check, you'll have bonus from improved trip, your strength should be good, once you get to higher level you can use polymorph to get a large form, and the sweeping enchantment is always nice to have.
The great thing is, if you make the trip attemt, you can choose for your opponent to land in any square within your reach(which can be good with the reach power and large size, though not as good as what snow savant has), and you'll deal damage equal to an unarmed strike. Since that damage is not an extra attack, you'll still get it even with the knockdown errata. And that damage shouldn't be too shabby, as you can use you're psionic powers to give you 1d12 unaramed damage (bite of the bear or whatever), as well as pure enchancement bonuses that have been released on The Mind's Eye.
In addition at higher levels you can have a large supply of dimension doors (many power points from psychic warrior, and a few spells from shadowlord) allowing you to teleport all over creation, as well as getting a bit of extra damage from sneak attack. So, not as many attacks as base attacks as snow's build, but you can use psionic powers to help out in that area, and you still get the attack's of oppurtunity.
So, whaddya think?
Master of Squirrel's = Aye. I fiddled around with a similar Psychic Warrior to yours. Except that I nixed the idea due to 2 reasons: 1.) The Lower BAB with the TWF option got some rather dissapointing results. Adding KotMC & EWM levels helped balance it out considerably though. 2.) In my 2 gaming groups, if you play psionic characters, you will get attacked psionically by the DM. And a 6 level dip into PsyWarrior just doesn't cut the mustard in regards to achieving his primary objective while staying defensively viable vs. psionic attacks.
Psifon & Rec1966 = Thanks for posting the items that grant I.I.
Zardnaar = The Side Step feat is from the Miniature's Handbook. In a nutshell, once per round, when you make an AoO, you may take a 5' step after you attack. It does not count againt your limit of 1 5' step per round or your movement per round. It has Dodge/Mobility, and some skill ranks as pre-req. So say a Drow fighter starts a full-attack sequence (say he has 4 attacks with a Greatsword) against you with Side Step, Karmic Strike, & Double Hit in your feat arsenal ... the chain of events will make him wish he never tried to hit you in the 1st place! And ... he'll probably only get 1 hit in on you at all in the first place.
Wumbo = Nice build! Although I am really looking for either advice/commentary or comparable builds with a theme of high attack #'s along with manipulating AoO's to self-advantage ... with options for tripping or damage.
***
Note, I believe there is also a magic item or magic weapons special ability out there that grants Cleave for your specific weapon (perhaps in the MoF book - no books with me now). Cleave would be nice here as well, as it falls into the family of "additional attacks".
As I stated earlier, there are about 4-5 other feats I'd love to cram into this build, but there is not room without compromising key fundamental components such as BAB or "early" level acquisition.
***
Also, more versatility!
You have as an option to use the Chain in its 10' reach THF mode .... and still fight TWF! Clamp on some Armor Spikes onto your armor and use them with your Chain and your TWF feat benefits. Granted, the Armor Spikes are only 5' reach. So they would be even more useful with the Knockback (+3) magic weapon special ability. Especially regarding AoO's with your 10' Reach Chain.
Now for a question: In a non-FR game, what would you advise to take instead of Jotunbrud?
Though not nearly as complete of a design.A level of Barbarian has two potential bonuses to this build. First is Wolf Berserker, not only does it substitute for Combat Expertese, but it grants a nice +4 bonus on trip attemps, potentially allowing you to drop Jotunbrund too. Second, Unearthed Arcana will be adding varient class abilities next month, Whirling Frenzy looks perfect for this build.
While with the current Psionic Combat System and a DM willing to smack players for sloppy game design a Psychic Warrior is unattractive, it may look better in April when that will hopefully be fixed at long last.
4 levels of Psychic Warrior gains one feat on the fighter at the cost of some hit points and one BAB. The gains in the feat choices and power abuse can offest it though. Stand Still can be accessed early to keep opponents at arm's length, and the Bite of the Wolf power gives a nice off hand weapon. BoW has two possible uses, one with Multiweapon Fighting chain it provides yet another off hand attack, or it can be used with a martial reach weapon allowing you to threaten both adjacent and reach spaces, mostly eliminating the need for EWP: Chain.
Yep, far to many goodies to cram into this one build. Ahh, alas, for a chance to try this mayhem out.
Great build. I give it an A!
edit: Just remembered, Intelegent Items can grant Improved Initiative for a cost of about 10k (15k at most). Most of the other items don't actually give Imp. Init. , granting an initiative bonus instead.
Great build! I REALLY like the combo of Karmic Strike and Side Step. I think you have discovered a classic Feat combination there. Brilliant!
Human Fighter 16 / Warrior Skald 1 / War Chanter 3
Total: 17 Feats
Drop hold the line, Deft Opportunist and switch Greater TWF with Cleave.
In Return you get the war chanter that allows you to sacrifice AC up to your BaB to get +to hit.
With Power Attack that gives -20 to hit +20 damage, -20 AC +20 to hit; in other words, -20 AC +20 Damage.
So you are an easy target, but with Karmic Strike, Side-step and double hit (nice one snow) That is not all to cry about.
If you have a DM that allows over-powered Book of Exalted Deeds equipment, you can add the Retributive Amulet as well.
Using Monk2 and the Passive Way Style nets you one more Feat and some Monk abilities (like Evasion!) at the low low retail price of -1 BAB
Is weapon finesse a prerequisite to something? If not, drop it and pick something more useful. Your str should be higher than your dex.
At higher levels, a character generally faces large foes with higher strength scores and reach. Each of these factors reduces the effectiveness of this build, and combined (as they often are), it could prove problematic.
While this build may benefit from tons of attacks and a good method to avoid anyone (without reach) returning the favor, I think there are more effective trip based builds, especially at higher levels.
Again, it's *not* a tripping build. Tripping is an option for it (along with damage hits) once the multiple attack sequences kick in.
This is a very interesting use of ftr 20, but I am still seeing one problem: The bonus to your trip attempt is only going to be +10 (I don't know what bonuses the magical enhancements give) and whatever your str gives you. This means that if you reliably want to trip creatures, you need to keep your strength as high as possible at all times.
Then add 1 Barb level and Snow Tiger Berserker. +4 to Trip comes from the Sweeping option. The Knockback feat also facilitates tripping opps. Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, etc. are all obtained through low-level staple buff spells, potions, or items with the obvious benefits to tripping included. Plus, you are getting way, *WAY* more opportunities to trip than your average Ftr or Barb due to all the extra attacks you get. You may want to test this build out, Boon. I did in 8 different test sessions benchmarked against a more dedicated high-STR Half-Ogre
Spiked Chain tripping specialist ... opponents included a number of high-STR huge creatures. And this build proved to be more effective at tripping and battlefield control.
Is weapon finesse a prerequisite to something? If not, drop it and pick something more useful. Your str should be higher than your dex.
You're not *getting* the build or its mechanics, Boon. Play-test it out, with a 32-point or higher stat-distribution, then come back offering advice on it.
While this build may benefit from tons of attacks and a good method to avoid anyone (without reach) returning the favor, I think there are more effective trip based builds, especially at higher levels.
Again, it's not a "trip-first" build, but it gets way more trip opportunities than a standard trip-first build. And, if tripping is not viable, you can still pound away on the foe while keeping him from getting full-attack options on you. Besides, you want for this build to be the most trip-effective? Tweak it. Keep the core engine feats, go Barb-Snow Berserker, and you're good-to-go. Just about any trip-heavy build you can find - I'd love to benchmark and make minor template adjustment to equal or exceed its abilities. It's a template build made to adjust to a player's interests or specialties. You can even add a disarming-emphasis to the build as well by adding a small component of Ranger/Watch Detective.
***
Joost, one of my fave PrC's (War Chanter) and I forgot about Inspire Recklessness! Smart suggestion! That's a guaranteed Trip or a monster Power Attack right there. Good work.
XO,
Snow
Originally posted by Snow Savant
Thank for all of your feedback!
Note, I believe there is also a magic item or magic weapons special ability out there that grants Cleave for your specific weapon (perhaps in the MoF book - no books with me now). Cleave would be nice here as well, as it falls into the family of "additional attacks".
The only items that grant Cleave that I can find are the Sylvan Scimitar in the DMG and the Rankbreaking Glaive in A&E
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here's what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge.
So, the opponent charges along the straightest line. Upon leaving your first threatened square, which will be 10' away from you or more, you take your AoO and also choose to use Sidestep to take a 5' step. You step back and to the side. At this point, your opponent can no longer strike you from the square that was being targeted with the charge, and thus the square is no longer a legal point to charge to. What happens? This is also problematic if you can use your 5' step to move to a position that has cover relative to the opponent.
I can see a few ways to resolve this, but none seem to work in the general case. One could allow the opponent to continue one square farther on the charge, but this solution fails if the opponent has no movement left or if they would have to move through a square that counts as difficult terrain. Additionally, a 5' step that takes one behind cover would force the charging opponent to have to turn in order to resolve the charge, which obviously doesn't work.
Of course, this assumes that one must declare where one is charging to at the beginning of the charge action. It is my understanding that this is the case. Even if it is not, one could still 5' step behind cover to defeat the charge.
So far, this seems to be a way to stop any charge cold without actually having to successfully attack; tripping, in contrast, must be successful to stop the charge. However, since this build trivially has 20' reach, there is another possibility. It is my understanding that a diving attack works much the same as a standard charge, in that a target square must be designated in advance and the opponent cannot have cover relative to the attacker. If the former is true, then this trick would allow one to avoid diving attacks from flying creatures. If the latter is true, then diving attacks may be avoided if appropriate cover is available. Given Snow Savant's stated love of battlefield control, I suspect available cover can be arranged.
Note that the 5' step could be used to carry you into any number of other things; darkness or fog effects spring to mind, but I'm sure you can easily think of more.
Of course, you can avoid all of these attacks via cover, concealment, and so on to begin with. The key here is that you force your opponent to commit to an action, then negate it. Note that this also works nicely with a high tumble check, since, if memory serves, a high tumble check can allow one to move 10' during a "5 foot step." I believe the rules for this are given in OA.
In general, this feat seems extremely problematic when used in this fashion. Are this issues dealt with in the Mini Handbook? If not, or if it does indeed work in this fashion, then I think this feat is highly abusable. I should note that, based on what I have seen of it, I feel that the Mini Handbook does not appear to be balanced against standard D&D material, and thus I would expect to see things that are abusable within core D&D material or appear to create rules problems. I believe this concern has been raised before.
edit:
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the rules are not well-prepared to handle people deciding to move when it is not their turn. That said, this seems to be a amazingly strong feat. Forget avoiding full attacks (as if that wasn't enough), if you're careful you might be virtually immune to melee attacks of any kind from anything that has a shorter reach than you.
This started out as a "laboratory experiment" for maxing out trip (without spellcasting), but I think it's a viable build as it stands. (I can't be bothered to work out a level-by-level progression.)
Total: +54 on the Str check once/day, otherwise +46.
"Sweeper"
ECL 20 (lvl 19) Half-Ogre (+1)
Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master (CW) 3/War Hulk (MH) 10
Maxing out trip...
Equipment:
18000 Ring of Growth (SS)
22325 (Large) Sweeping (MoF), Living Chain (MH)
36000 + 6 Str Enhancement item
110000 + 4 Str Inherent
6000 Steadfast Boots (A&EG) (Warning: High cheese level)
20000 Stone of good luck
Strength: 16 (not 18, to afford a decent Dex and Con) + 6 (half-ogre) + 4 (levels) + 4 (inherent) + 6 (enhancement) + 20 (war hulk) = 56 Str (+23)
1/Day: +4 (enlargement, ring of growth) +4 (rage) = 64 Str (+27)
Feats (10): Wolf Berserker (UE), Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Cleave, Mage Slayer (MH), Large and in Charge (D), Hold the Line (CW), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
(From Exotic Weapon Master: Flurry of Strikes, Trip Attack, Exotic Reach)
In combat (enlarged, raging): He can make 3 (4 if hasted) massive swings/round, attacking all creatures within 30 feet. He has a +54 (+4 wolf berserker + 4 improved trip + 2 trip attack + 4 sweeping + 4 living chain + 1 stone of good luck + 8 huge + 27 Str) bonus on the opposed Str check after a trip attack. This is an automatic success against most creatures he is allowed to trip (Gargantuan or smaller). If the creature's bonus to the Str check is less than +35 there is no need to roll dice.
You also spend feats on TWF while most of the rest of the build you emphasize battle-field control via your reach. These are mutually exclusive. In fact, with your emphasis on avoiding full attacks by opponents, you will hardly ever be able to use your own TWF style. With this builds' AC, you need to focus on preventing opponents from full attacks.
Originally posted by Boondoggle
You also spend feats on TWF while most of the rest of the build you emphasize battle-field control via your reach. These are mutually exclusive. In fact, with your emphasis on avoiding full attacks by opponents, you will hardly ever be able to use your own TWF style. With this builds' AC, you need to focus on preventing opponents from full attacks.
Before I make any comments, I must say "Great build, Snow!" :D
I have two suggestions:
1) Use dual Kawanagas instead of a chain. You effectively take a -2 to attacks and a -1.5 to damage in order to use reach and TWF together.
2) Remove two levels of fighter and add two levels of monk. You get two extra feats (though one of them is virtual) for the cost of -1 to attacks. Now, keep the same feat progression and add IUS and Defensive Throw. You get to make a trip attack on all the missed attacks now, which results in you making what is essentially an attack for each one of you opponent's attacks.
My .02$.
Originally posted by Psifon
Tumbling or spring attacks would still work.
If the only melee opponents that you need to worry about are the ones with tumble and spring attack, then I don't think you have much to worry about. Sure, your DM could decide that every opponent suddenly has a high tumble or Spring Attack, but your DM can kill your character on a whim anyway.
I think that, given this build's emphasis on defense and control over brute-force offense, tumble might be a very strong choice. In addition to turning Sidestep into a 10' step, it also combines nicely with Combat Expertise, the ultility of which Snow has already mentioned. A high tumble check would allow you to pump your AC up even higher by using Combat Expertise while fighting defensively. Futhermore, it would help the build relocate when it needed. Since the build already emphasizes DEX, I assume that light armor is already being used, so that should be fine.
Cosmopolitan is probably the best way to go about getting tumble in this case, given Snow's previous statement regarding BAB and its advantages in this build.
Boondoggle:
I think the idea is that, against opponents that you are unlikely to trip, you just do something else. Switch to making full attacks, or spring attack, or whatever. There will always come a point when tripping is not viable; this build has other answers, where as a more dedicated tripper might not. Flying enemies, for instance, make trippers look rather silly, while this build has a lovely trick to avoid them and hurt them in the process.
And keep in mind, its presented in its primary form as Ftr-20. Which is good in and of itself. But since the form is a template, you can make a whole slew of changes and dips to the build to bolster certain segments of it without ruining the structural integrity of the core feats.
The following dips make sense for potential variant builds:
- Barbarian-1 = Rage, access to Wolf Berserker feat.
- KotMC-1 = Combat Sense +2, Blindfight feat.
- ExWeapMaster-X = Up to 3 levels for the Chain. Most of the class abilities in EWM are great for this build.
- Monk-2 = Tumble, extra Feats, fight TWF style with THF 10' Chain and Unarmed Attacks. Fun!
- PsyWarrior-X = Enough levels to squeak out more feats than Ftr-20, but not enough to harmfully dilute the BAB.
- Swashbuckler-1 = Weapon Finesse feat.
- Rogue-3 + GuildThief-4 = 7 Levels of Rogue skills, BAB +5, +4d6 SA, Weapon Finesse & Weapon Focus feats.
- Divine Champion4 = for high CHA warriors. You get 2 bonus Fighter feats here.
- Ranger-2 + WatchDetective-3 = You get 4 feats out of this one - Comb. Expertise, Imp. Disarm, a TWF feat, & Track.
--------------
And that's just a few ideas right there.
Flying enemies, for instance, make trippers look rather silly, while this build has a lovely trick to avoid them and hurt them in the process.
The Knockback feat works wonders here. Depends upon the way you ajudicate the feat with flyers too - many interpretations I've seen on this one.
****
And as Nihility stated, you have the flexibility in the build to take a Cosmopolitan feat if you so desire.
XO,
Snow
I'm trying to decide whether whipdaggers would make good weapon choices for this type of character. It increases the trip range to 15', but you lose the AOO at 10'.
I think that would be a bad idea. A number this build's tricks run off of taking AoO's, and a number of other tricks run off of attacking an opponents with Karmic Strike when they attack you. Obviously the whip wrecks the first trick, and provoking an AoO when you attack makes the second trick problematic. Of course, this depends on what rules you use for the whip dagger. If you are using 3.0 rules, or some halfway between version, then maybe you can get around these problems. Note that TWF and the related tactics also fail if you use the whip.
That said, tripping with a whip dagger is certainly a possible tactic, but I would use a significantly different build.
Nobody suggested a one-level dip in Shiba Defender yet? Sacriledge on a min-max board! :D Especially if we're going 2 levels of monk for the feats it's pretty much a no-brainer. Shintao Monk gets good feats etc for the first 3 levels too and your AC gets one better (Monk3/ShM3 = +1 AC, higher speed etc) and all you need for it is an extra level of monk and a LG alignment.
Originally posted by JoostBuijs
In Return you get the war chanter that allows you to sacrifice AC up to your BaB to get +to hit. With Power Attack that gives -20 to hit +20 damage, -20 AC +20 to hit; in other words, -20 AC +20 Damage.
Why not use a two-handed weapon and get -20 to hit/+40 damage, or be a frenzied berserker and get -20 to hit/+80 damage?
Why not use a two-handed weapon and get -20 to hit/+40 damage, or be a frenzied berserker and get -20 to hit/+80 damage?
That is quite possible yes, but would leave the base idea of the build, cuase you would lack the feats.
If someone could compare this stats-wise to a less feat intensive spiked chain tripper (a barbarian would probably be a wise choice) with similar feats (karmic strike, knockdown, etc.) that would be nice.
But if it only requires TWF and not Improved TWF, a more narrow selection of feats would be:
Jotenbrud
EWP: Chain
Combat Expertise
TWF (Maybe I.TWF)
Imp. Trip
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Mobility
Side Step
Double Hit
Spring Attack
Knock-Down
Power Attack
----
Add Cleave to go with Warrior Skald/War Chanter, this makes a total of 15 (or 16) feats. Thus we need 7 (or 8*) Bonus feats from classes if we take Human as race;
Fighter 12 - Full BaB saves 8/4/4 (in 12 levels)
Fighter 8/ Monk 2 - Full BaB -1 saves 9/5/5 (in 10 levels)
Fighter 4/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Monk 2 - Full BaB -2 saves 10/4/4 (in 8 levels)
*in each of this just add 2 levels of Fighter to get that 8th bonus feat. (duh)
Leaving us free with 2-8 levels of other classes to play with. -Frenzied Berserker will in no way be possible, sadly enough.
My thoughts are going Barbarian 2 and another fighter 2, get Speed of thought feat (when using Psychic warrior) and this gives a nice +20 ft extra speed.
Also nice with the Psychic Warrior is the Stand Still feat.
(hmm seems after my goal - removing feats/Ftr lvls, I start adding them again. :D )
Well anyhow I think after this all the goal of my post is just use monk 2 and psychic warrior 2 to get more feats .. since this is a feat heavy build. :D
Couple questions
What book are these feats in
Knock Down
Double Hit
Side Step
Also some people came up with good ideas wonder what others thought would be good set up on Feats and which lvls.
Also if you have 10' reach and someone moves into you to attack you get a AoO Right? so after that AoO you can back up 5 ft with SideStep and he would have to move within your Threatened area AGAIN??? another AoO? or only 1 per target per round. I know with Combat reflexes you get more but to same target? If it works out like thats silly long as you have room dude could get hit more times from AoO then guy has attacks himself before he EVEN gets to you thats funny hehe Definetly need high dex though
Edit - Had to remove what I said previously just in case mods are told to be very strict on illegal activities <_< >_>
Take the minor aura that add's your chr bonus to your trip attacks?
You could even integrate a Sneak Attack component to the build without severely compromising high-BAB efficiency. Guild Thief, Rogue, & Ninja levels are key here. In fact, Ninja-1 is a super-efficient dip to take in the build due to Ninja's inherent class proficiency in Chain.
BTW, Iku Rex's build variant listed earlier in the thread is pretty damn cool. Worth a look.
XO,
Snow
Have been looking for this for awhile and just passed by it while surfing. Also a quick question, where is the Knock Down feat from?
Zalabim
Just checking, since I don't have access to Jotenbrud.
BTW the Knockback enhancement on weapons is ONLY AVALIABLE in ranged weapons (CW)
I assume Jotunbrud is a take-it-at-first-only feat, but, you did mention it was optional (especially, if, say, you're buddies with a Sorcerer who knows Enlarge or something).
I also assume that the Blunt Chain is taken over a conventional reach weapon or spiked chain mainly for the TWF.
So, if you opt not to take Jotunbrud, and delay the EWP, you can start at 1st with Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip - so you're a multiple-trip machine out the gate.
I could also see doing a variation with Whirlwind Attack instead of the TWF chain. It is a major sacrifice in your ability to make multiple attacks against a single opponent, but, with a 'Chain and Large size, the 'beaten zone' of your WWA can give you a heck of a lot of attacks against multiple creatures.
Question 2: how does the chain specified differ from the Spiked Chain in the PHB?
Originally posted by Gol
Question 2: how does the chain specified differ from the Spiked Chain in the PHB?
You can TWF with it, but only if you're not using it's reach capabilities. I'm not really sure why Snow is still using it, because Kawanagas (from OA, medium size reach weapons that threaten everywhere) are pretty obviously the better choice for this build (you can TWF and have reach at the same time). *shrug* YMMV.
Thanks in advance.
edit: After reading the weapon descriptions several times, I see why the Chain Lash from SS is used, and how using *that* weapon is crucial to this build. The Spiked Chain in the PHB is not considered a double weapon (as listed), even though the picture in the PHB might indicate otherwise. Hrm.....
My players are going to learn to HATE you. :D I definitely plan to make one of these to bedevil them.
In addition, I plan on teaming him up with a chain-fighter disarm-monkey, so they get tripped, disarmed, and pretty well humiliated.
As I mentioned in a similar thread, this entire build concept is intended to be modular in regards to the actual levels taken of any given core or prestige class. Although its best to have it stay Fighter-heavy due to the numerous feat chains and feat synergies needed to make it work. My original intention of this build was to show that as much as the 3.5 Fighter-20 sucks (and boy, does it), there are creative options to make Fighter-20 at least above average. But seeing as how even a few dip levels in other class makes this build considerably stronger, I'll avoid the Fighter-20 purity in the revision.
To answer a prior person's notice, the Tumble ranks needed for the Side-Step feat are easily met by taking 1 level of Ninja or using the Exoticist Fighter variant in Dragon magazine. You can also blow a feat on Skill Knowledge (from the UA book), but that is not a real optimal option to take it.
My revised thread will continue to provide options, but less of an emphasis will be placed on the Jotenbrud feat, which normally works well with a non-Large creatures "Neccessary Trinity" of Triptastic feats - the other 2 being Improved Trip and Wolf Berserker. The reason being, is that a typical adventuring party should be consistently providing their non-Large combatants with the Enlarge Person spell ... or at least crafting him Wondrous Items of the spell. Also, Jotenbrud becomes useless at higher levels when your party Fighter is reliably getting Polymorph or PAO (which should be standard O.P. at the appropriate levels).
Currently, a friend of mine is playing this build with the following "final build" permutation:
Ftr16 / Ninja1 / Barb2 / KotMC1 ... (using the Wolf Barbarian variant in UA)
3 playing levels worth of playtest have shown it is definitely a top-tier melee tank in regards to its combat niche - tripping everything and anything with extreme reliability. And as Skip Williams has stated, you can trip flyers. Which makes the build still viable at higher play levels.
More later ...
XO,
Snow
First assumption would be they land prone on the ground.
(Qaetar)
If it ain't there, I'll have to poke around again to find it - but it's *definitely* on the boards here.
He was using some rather odd verbiage along the lines that a "tripped" flyer was somehow in a state of being "stalled". Of which there was no reference to stalling in the DMG or PHB. My group and I made up some homebrew rules that ajudicated tripped flyers that work much better, but unfortunately, it's a lengthy treatise of legal spew.
Sorry for the vagueness, I'm outta town at the moment and not nearby by database of info on my other laptop. I seriously gotta consolidate these 2 pieces of junk one day....
XO,
Snow
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum speed, it must land at the end of its movement... If it is too high above the ground to land, it goes straight down 150'.
If this doesn't make it hit the ground, it has a DC 20 Reflex save to get back in flight. Otherwise, it goes 300' per round with a chance to save each round.
In the 3.0 DMG, I think it was actually labeled stalling, but I don't have that book handy at the moment.
Could that be what he's referencing?
(Qaetar)
And anyway, Skip isn't probably the best source for rules information, so I just go with the core books, and AFAIK, there's nothing stopping you from tripping flying creatures.
BTW, does anyone know where is says that tripped opponents can't walk normally? I and several other couldn't find it, and it really worried me….
You see, since each two fighter levels after the second one add only one feat, +2 BAB and some saves, so you might want to look at alternate class levels that add the feats you are using in the build.
Ninja 1 nets you sneak attack, good skill points, EWP: Chain and Ninja Dodge, which can be used as Dodge for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats and prestige classes.
Ranger 2 nets you Two-Weapon Fighting, good skill points, Track, wild empathy and favored enemy, and since you're using light armor anyway, it should work fine.
The new Psychic Warrior 2 nets you two bonus feats, but since you didn't want to use psionics, that one's out. Only +1 BAB too.
Monk 2 nets you Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist/Improved Grabble and Combat Reflexes in addition to Monk saves and Evasion, although you lose one BAB...
So you could do something like
Hu: Jotenbrud
Nin: 1: EWP: Chain, Ninja Dodge, (Combat Expertise)
Ftr 1: Imp. Trip
Barb 1: Mobility, (Weapon Finesse)
Ftr 2: Wolf Berserker
Rng 1: Track
Rng 2: TWF (Imp. TWF)
Monk 1: Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
Ftr 3: (Karmic Strike)
Ftr 4: Side Step
Ftr 5:
Ftr 6: Double Hit, (Deft Opportunist)
Ftr 7:
Ftr 8: Spring Attack
Ftr 9: Knock-Down, (Greater TWF)
Ftr 10: Power Attack
Ftr 11:
Ftr 12: Hold the Line, (Defensive Throw)
Ftr 13:
Ftr 14: Cleave
This totals at 24 feats and 19 BAB, and with Whirling Frenzy, you get an extra attack, which ups the total to 8 attacks per round... Or if you use your fists, nine attacks, since Flurry, Whirling Frenzy and TWF (which can be used with Unarmed Strikes) stack. Defensive Throw is nice, too - if your Dodge target doesn't hit you, you still get the free trip attempt. You could add two levels of Psychic Warrior for one more feat, psionics and other fun stuff.
Comments?
EDIT: Dang, I just realized that Monk needs Lawful and Barbarian Nonlawful. Ah well, drop the level of Barbarian, remove Wolf Berserk feat and add in something else.
32 point buy: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14
The strength is for some added damage. Dex for AC, initiative, and Weapon Finesse. Str for damage. Int for Combat Expertise. Cha for Sorcerer spells and Marshal abilities.
1st Level: Human Paragon (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Fleet of Foot)
2nd Level: Sorcerer (Enlarge Person, True Strike)
3rd Level: Human Paragon, (Dodge, Extra Favored Class)
4th Level: Human Paragon (+2 Dex), +1 Dex (Lesser Acid Orb)
5th Level: Monk (Improved Unarmed Strike)
6th Level: Monk (Combat Expertise, Clever Wrestling)
7th Level: Sorcerer (Cat's Grace)
8th Level: Marshal (Art of War) (+1 dex)
9th Level: Marshal (Motivate Urgency), (Improved Trip)
10th Level: Reaping Mauler (Improved Grapple, Mobility)
11th Level: Fighter (Combat Reflexes)
12th Level: Fighter (+1 Dex), (Improved Disarm, Spring Attack)
13th Level: Monk
14th Level: Fighter
15th Level: Fighter (Whirlwind Attack) (Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain)
16th Level: Spellsword (+1 dex), (Shield, Invisibility)
17th Level: Spellsword (Elusive Target)
18th Level: Fighter (Dash)
19th Level: Fighter (Improved Initiative)
20th Level: Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
Equipment:
+5 Eager Spiked Chain of Sweeping and Disarming
+6 Gloves of Dexterity
+6 Belt of Giant Strength
+6 Cloak of Charisma
+6 Periapt of Wisdom
+4 Manual of quickness in Action
+4 Tome of Leadership and Influence
Ring of Wizardry I
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Boots of Speed
Bracers of Armor +8
BAB is hurt with the Sorcerer addition to the build, but the Marshal level makes up for the difference, and the True srike more than makes up for it, at least for one hit. I think the overall added benefits more than make up for the slower attack progression. The saving throws are all great (Normal sized the result is 19 in each), and the addition of evasion is helpful, too.
I decided to have the character remain lawful, rather than drift to neutral, so the Extra Favored Class was thrown in for the third level in monk and some character concept (I'm not a complete munchkinizer! I'm not I'm not!).
Hey! Work! bye bye.
Anyways, for those that have the book/know the feat it's Push and with the official errata for it, it's really devastating in combination with reach and Movement Check (also a kalamar feat).
(Not posting details on the feats as I do not know if this violates any rules.)
Admittedly the greatest reason I had the monk level 3 seperated from the first two was because I initially had Barbarian there, until deciding that all I wanted from Barbarian was really the speed (Rage is nice, but it prevents spellcasting); on seeing Monk at level 3 grants +10 to speed, I figured I'd take that instead. So... shuffle it. And thanks for the correction.
As for doing it better, you are probably correct- it wouldn't be difficult to make a better all-out tripper than this character. If aiming for total twinkery, the characters presented here would be an amazing disappointment- even if just using builds most DM's wouldn't disallow (ie- no tauric half-dragons here). Mostly these are twists to his template. *shrug* I DO think it would be interesting for the makers to playtest the character concepts they submit here- 4 times, if possible (at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20), just to see if the character is viable at different stages of the game, and how dependent each build is on late-level blooming. Not sure how it would be done; I'm new to these posts as anyone reading them can see.
monsters of Faerun?
Thanks.
Has anyone looked at the use of Elusive Target to generate a bunch of extra trip attempts?
With a high AC (or miss chance, or anything...they simply have to miss) you get fairly reliable free trip attempts without sucking up your AOO uses.
So you can move/spring attack your way back to the enemy casters. If the bad guys swing and miss on the way in you get to trip (and then, of course, disarm or trip) them for free on your way in, and if they hit you get to hit them back twice thanks to karmic strike/double hit. And if you have knockdown they may end up on their butts anyway.
Originally posted by Cornbread
Mini Handbook.
Thanks.
Was thinking of Elusive Target as well.
it took advantage of the lightning mace feat from CW.
later i switched out 8 levels of fighter for disciple of dispater.
when a mace can threaten on a 17 and that gives a bonus attack... it gets nasty.
all i see is that it is a reach weapon that u can use to attack adjacent foes.... like i said maybe i am missing something
you are correct however that in 3.5 there is no mention of using a spiked chain as a double weapon.
There is no mentioning the use of Spiked Chain in this build.
i havent looked at OA or SS in a while but im sure that Snow is correct in the application of the chain or blunt chain in this build.
Another way to qualify for Sidestep, especially if your DM is a stickler for 3.5 material, is to intersperse a level of Swashbuckler (CW) in the first 4 Fighter levels, as it gives 4+Int skill points/level, has Tumble as a class skill, and gives you Weapon Finesse, which you wanted anyway. If you're a human with the minimum Int for this build (13), then I'd suggest sticking in the Swashbuckler level at 3:
*Edit* Nevermind, Doh!
Somebody help an ignorant fellow out. I assume that Jotenbrud is from the FRCS, based on a later comment, but what exactly does it do?
Jotunbrud is found in Races of Faerun. You are considered large size for any opposed roll that involves size, if it is advantageous.
trip for battlefield control. Every PC in this setting has a special
heroic path. I choosed "Giantblooded" for beeing large - there will no
possibility for enlarge person or other magical ways to get large. Those
paths are needed for the lack of magic and magic items in this setting.
Here are the abilities for my path.
Giantblooded abilities by Level:
01 Large
02 Intimidatnig Size +2
03 Precise throw +1
04 Fast movement +5 ft.
05 Fearsome charge +1
06 Extended throw +10 ft.
07 Intimidating size +4
08 Precise throw +2
09 Fast movement +10 ft.
10 Fearsome charge +2
11 Extended throw +20 ft.
12 Intimidating size +6
13 Precise throw +3
14 Fast movement +10 ft.
15 Fearsome charge +2
16 Extended throw +30 ft.
17 Intimidating size +8
18 Precise throw +4
19 Fast movement +20 ft.
20 Fearsome charge +4
I choosed to play a Erenlander human. Erenlander get 2 bonus feats at 1st level,
+2 skill ranks per level and gain +2 bonus on a ability score of the player's
choice and suffer a -2 malus on one other ability score of the player's choice.
My stats are: 18, 17, 15, 13, 13, 12
STR 18=15+2(Large)
DEX 18=18-2(Large)+2(Erenlander)
CON 17
INT 13
WIS 13
CHA 10=12-2(Erenlander)
Here is my progression so far. A defender is a monk without magic. I took it for
improved unarmed strike and some skills as class skills.
01 Defender1: Unarmed Strike, Stunning Attack, Combat Expertise*, Combat Reflexes*, (Improved Trip)
02 Defender1/Fighter1: Dodge
03 Defender1/Fighter2: Mobility, (Karmic Strike)
04 Defender1/Fighter3:
05 Defender1/Fighter4: EWP(Atharak)
06 Defender1/Fighter5: (Sidestep)
07 Defender1/Fighter6: TWF
08 Defender1/Fighter7:
09 Defender1/Fighter8: Improved TWF, (Double Hit)
10 Defender1/Fighter9:
11 Defender1/Fighter10: Greater TWF
12 Defender1/Fighter11: (Deft Opportunist)
13 Defender1/Fighter12: Power Attack
open
If i use one stat increase for STR, i have a trip mod of +12.
Just to give a idea of the opponents.Because it is a low magic setting we most fight vs.
opponents with low AC(~17) - especially low touch AC. Most opponents are orc troops with a STR
score of 18-22. Other opponents are evil clerics with higher armor and some defensiv spells.
Our problem is that we don't get a high armor ourselves because no magic and armor is forbidden. So most opponents
hit us too. So i decided to go for reach weapon (Atharak) and trip to stop opponents before they can hit me.
As i never played a tripped before i need your opion on this character. Do you see possibilities to
improve his battlefield control. Would improved disarm be usefull?
Thanks for your help.
Starting with a human half-minotaur or a half-ogre (the important thing is to have a Large and Strong creature). A 18 (modified 16) in Dex is necessary.
An asterisk marks a bonus feat of the relevant class according to level.
Hu: Combat Reflexes*
1st Level (Monk1): Unarmed Strike*, Combat Expertise*, Dodge
2nd Level (Monk2): Improved Trip*
3rd Level (Monk 3): Exotic Weapon Proficiency: chain lash (Sav. Spec.)
*You can pay off the half-minotaur or half-ogre LA+1 by now (AU optional rule)
4th Level (Ftr1): Two-Weapon Fighting*
5th Level (Ftr2): Mobility*
6th Level (Shintao Monk1 [ShM1] - Oriental Adventures): Karmic Strike*, Sidestep
7th Level (Ftr3): -
8th Level (Ftr4): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
9th Level (Ftr5): Deft Opportunist
10th Level (Frt6): Double Hit*
11th Level (Ftr7): -
12th Level (Ftr8): Greater Two-Weapon Fighting*, Knockdown
13th Level (Psychic Warrior1 [PsW1]): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)*
14th Level (Shou Disciple1 [ShD1] - Unaproachable East): -
15th Level (ShD2): Spring Attack*, Whirlwind Attack
16th Level (ShD3): -
17th Level (ShD4): Power Attack*
18th Level (ShD5): Cleave
19th Level (ShM2): -
20th Level (ShM3): Improved Disarm*
BAB: +18
Flurry (martial with chain lash - Shou Disciple 5th level Special): +18 (x3)/etc
TWF: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
Flurry + TWF: +16 (x4)/+13/+13/+6/+6/+1
That's the best thing I could build using Snow Savant template as a start. Pay attention to the necessary skills (tumble and Knowledge [religion], at the start, and a some few ranks in others for Shou Disciple). It really kicks in much sooner with karmic strike and sidestep at 6th level. Alternate monk feats at Unearthed Arcana: Passive way style.
Shintao Monk and Shou Disciple both improves monk unarmed damage and flurry of blows. Unarmed Strike damage for this build is 3d6 (2d6 from Shou Disciple increase for large size).
You have great unarmed strikes, reflex saves (and evasion), and will saves. Many other specials from the various classes.
What do you guys think?
Hu: Combat Reflexes*
1st Level (Monk1): Unarmed Strike*, Combat Expertise*, Dodge
2nd Level (Monk2): Improved Trip*
For starters, unless a supplement says otherwise, at monk1 you choose between stunning fist and improved grapple, and monk2 you choose between combat reflexes and deflect arrows.
For starters, unless a supplement says otherwise, at monk1 you choose between stunning fist and improved grapple, and monk2 you choose between combat reflexes and deflect arrows.
Since he's using Oriental Adventures material, I'm guessing he's using the rules from there for substituting monk feats. They are alot more flexible than the ones in the PHB.
The monk bonus feats are from the passive way style. You just haven't read my post. Pay more attention next time.
I'll correct a little other things as well. I better take out the Psychic Warrior level to prevent any xp penalty. This will cause some loss in feats, but it'll still be ok.
Trip is good, but is just one more option. The focus is the enormous number of attacks provided by Shou Disciple (Unaproachable East) martial flurry combined with 14 monk levels (Shintao Monk [Oriental Adventures] and Shou Disciple both add levels to monk's flurry of blows attack).
If you happen to have a DM that accept a Large template (1/2 minotaur or 1/2 ogre, both in Dragon 313), so much the better. If not, you have other options to enlarge yourself (expansion, from Psychic Warrior power list is a valid option).
Hu: Combat Reflexes*
1st Level (Monk1): Unarmed Strike*, Combat Expertise*, Dodge
2nd Level (Monk2): Improved Trip*
3rd Level (Monk 3): Exotic Weapon Proficiency: chain lash (Sav. Spec.)
4th Level (Ftr1): Two-Weapon Fighting*
5th Level (Ftr2): Mobility*
6th Level (Shintao Monk1 [ShM1]): Karmic Strike*, Sidestep
7th Level (PsW1):Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)*
8th Level (PsW2): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
9th Level (Ftr3): Deft Opportunist
10th Level (Frt4): Double Hit*
11th Level (Shou Disciple [ShD]): -
12th Level (ShD2): Spring Attack*, Knockdown
13th Level (ShD3): -
14th Level (ShD4): Power Attack*
15th Level (ShD5): Greater TWF
16th Level (ShM2): -
17th Level (ShM3): Whirlwind Attack*
18th Level (ShM4): Cleave
19th Level (ShM5): Improved Disarm*
20th Level (ShM6): -
To qualify Shintao Monk at 6th level and to Imp. TWF at 8th level, you must use the optional rule about fractional base bonus in Unearthed Arcana page 73. Monk bonus feats are from the optional monk style (passive way) in Unearthed Arcana page 52.
Its a better version (than the firs I posted) 'cause you get martial flurry sooner and get no xp penalty from Psychic Warrior levels. Nice specials from Shintao Monk and excelent unarmed strike damage from Shou Disciple, not to mention some power form Psychic Warrior, add a lot of versatility to this warrior-monk with a tremendous number of attacks (9 attacks if you combine martial flurry with TWF, lots of AoOs from chain lash reach, and the option of Whirlwind Attack).
I'm using many Unearthed Arcana optional rules.
The monk bonus feats are from the passive way style. You just haven't read my post. Pay more attention next time.
Ah sorry, missed that part. Dunno why I skipped that last sentence because I read the rest of the post -_-
So, what you think about the seconde version of the build?
I see your point about optional rules. At least they're rules, and they're not that far-fetched.
I put Whirlwind Attack 'cause I just like it. If you happen to be large (or bigger!), your reach is tremendous. You'll problably more than 4 targets at full BAB (with martial flurry you get 4 (full BAB-2) attacks) and get a free trip attempt against every one of them (knockdown). I think it's worth the shot. Anyhow, you can get Stunning Fist and Freezing the Life Blood in levels 17 and 19 (ShM3 and ShM5), instead of Whirlwind Attack and Improved Disarm.
1) What book is chain lash in?
2) Snow Savant advised that one of the magical enhancements "Knockback" (+3) is a good choice for the weapon, which I believe a majority of other people liked the idea. I keep looking at it and I don't see how it is that great. I am starting with a 12th level character, which my character can't even afford a +3 enhancement bonus on a weapon at this point of time (DM won't allow more than 25% starting wealth spent on one item). I am sure I will be able to upgrade it at like level 14 or 15. Now "Knockback" has a fortitude save of 19 if I remember right and maybe I am paranoid, but I believe when I am able to buy this almost everything will beat a fortitude save of 19.
3) Where is the Ninja with Ex wep prof and ninja dodge? I went through the trouble to get off my lazy *** and go through my Dragon magazine collection to find magazine #318 booty call for pirates. The ninja in there was not the one I was looking for.
I agree with... some person here, forgot the name.... too lazy to click back... That 1 level of Marshall with the aura to add to trip is a pretty nice addition to the trip bonus.
+4 Imp trip
+4 Sweeping
+2 Chain lash ( I guess this is where people get to +10 with )
+5 Minor Aura (forgot name) (w/ +4 cha item)
+6 Strength (w/ +4 Belt of str)
21 to trip is pretty good at level 12. Might be a few points lower for most people who use 32 point buy which I guess my group is pretty cheap and does 5d6 drop the lowest 2 dice.
3) Where is the Ninja with Ex wep prof and ninja dodge? I went through the trouble to get off my lazy *** and go through my Dragon magazine collection to find magazine #318 booty call for pirates. The ninja in there was not the one I was looking for.
The ninja she was referencing is from the Rokugan Campaign Setting book. It is available for free as a pdf online as a preview of the book here: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf
I don't remember where the Chain Lash is. I've seen it mentioned on here before with a reference, though. Search this board for Chain Lash.
I used to be enamored of this feat, until I realized that all AoO are at your full BAB. In which case most of the time at high level, you don't need that +4 to hit. Unless you're planning on several AoO in a round and Power Attack accordingly. I bet there's another feat you'd love to insert in place of Deft Opportunist.
What´s all that good with the TWF?
Great post Snow! It´s a good variant to the typical STR built Tripper. Just can´t understand where does the chain lash ability for using it with the TWF is that good. In my point of view it´s good if you trip the opponent and then just stay at a distance, say 5" from it, avoiding is attacks and having AoO whenever he stands from prone.
What´s all that good with the TWF?
1) Double Hit lets you use both ends on an attack of opportunity. If you're willing to switch off of reach mode for a bit, you can not only fully shut down a full attack but also get more attacks than your opponent (he hits you once, you hit him twice and evade; one or both of those could also be trip attempts, and you have Improved Trip).
2) There are variants in this that involve armor spikes (certainly a great investment, IMHO), kawangas (the most "optimized" choice, but far more "oriental" than the chain itself is, so it's unlikely to be readily found by a first level Illuskan or Damaran -- the only human ethnicities to have access to Jotenbrud), or the like. These require TWF to use properly.
3) Once you get an Enlarge spell on you, your reach improves. In the same reach you had before, you can now make 7 attacks instead of 4. This isn't possible without TWF.
4) The TWF chain requires a high dexterity. If you plan on avoiding attacks altogether, your dexterity becomes more important than your constitution as a defensive ability score. So, even in the reach version, you may as well have a high dexterity... and from that, you should probably work with Weapon Finesse and the TWF chain to capitalize on this, since they work well with a high dexterity. The Jotenbrud feat means you trip as well as someone with a strength score 8 points higher than yours, so a 10 is effectively an 18. Obviously, more strength is better, but thanks to Jotenbrud, it takes a backburner to dexterity. Also of note: Side Step, critical to this build, has a prerequisite of 8 ranks in Tumble, a cross-class skill for fighters. Since it's cross class and yet a wonderful skill choice for this concept, a high dexterity will help get that score to a respectable, if non-roguelike, level. On a related topic, dexterity affects many, many skills, particularily those based on mobility, which is always a good thing for someone like this.
5) Style points. Seriously. Chain-type weapon stunts are always more impressive with a twin weapon style. Not a real optimization choice, I admit, but hey, it's cool. If you want an optimization tie-in here, you can enhance each head of the chain with a different set of powers, and use them both in the same round (imagine one that stuns and another that knocks back, for instance).
Finally, unlike other TWF options, the chain can still switch out for the standard reach option, to work the way you describe in your post. Not even the spiked chain can do this.
Snow's build is based off of battlefield control and options, not so much on a one-dimensional "must trip" idea. I mean, one pair of Steadfast Boots (6000 GP from A&EG, but I'm not sure how they'd be priced in 3.5) and every single tripmonger will start crying... but this guy calmly disarms from a distance and focuses on staying in control through other means. (Besides, if you want, enchant the second head to be very good at disarming or sundering. Knock the weapon out of their hands, and take your second TWF attack at the weapon itself, which is now unattended and saves as such).
By the way, does anyone else here think that a 3.5 reprint of Jotenbrud would be written closer to the Powerful Build ability of the half-giant and goliath, since it's very similar in concept? Not an exact copy, since a feat for a key feature of a +1 LA race is bent at best, but a modification of the relevant sections (as in, replace "large" with "one size larger" and have it stack with size changes)? Or that it would be terribly broken to design a cheap (+gp, not +enhancement) weapon enhancement to allow swifter switching between TWF and THF modes on the chain?
Once again, snow savant awsome build
Does anyone know what this item is?
anything that increases your dex will give the desired result of increasing your init, as well as up your AC
Expert Tactican
Your tactical skill works for your advantage.
Preqs: Dex13, Combat Reflexes, BAB+2
Benefit: If you hit a creature with an attack of opportunity, you and all your allies get a +2 circumstance bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature for 1 round.
Now that are +6 vs. the tripped opponents
And many more if your allies have power attack *g*Blind Fight, Close Quarters Fighting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Throw, Deft Opportunist, Dodge, Double Hit, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain Lash, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Mage Slayer, Prone Attack and Two Weapon Fighting.
This build was made before I saw Complete Adventurer, Races of Stone or Races of Destiny.
I guess my fundamental question is: why Two-Weapon Fighting? Let's compare the damage spiked-chain wielder with an OA/SS chain wielder. The spiked chain wielder does,
2d4 (avg. 5) + 1.5 x Str + 2 x PA + other
While the chain wielder, while TWFing, does,
1d6 + 1 x Str + PA + other (on-hand)
1d6 + .5 x Str + other (off-hand)
For a total of,
2d6 (avg. 7) + 1.5 x Str + PA + other
The most common type of "other" bonus is weapon enchantment, but other typical examples include Weapon Specialization, the dervish's bonus with slashing weapons, the swashbuckler's Int bonus to damage, the bard's inspire courage, and (now) the champion of Corellon's Dex bonus to damage. The key reason these damage bonuses are important is that they're not reduced when applied to your off-hand attacks and not increased when wielding two-handed, so they actually provide a net benefit to the TWFer, which is not true for Str.
The basic fighter build is not going to have these types of bonuses without relying on other party members (if you know you have a bard ally who's going to max out inspire courage, TWFing becomes much more appealing) and acquiring them at all requires some effort, class levels, more MAD, and usually feats too. Meanwhile, the build has a lot of tripping enchantments on its weapon, not leaving much room for damage boosting enchantments like the elemental damage properties. So, is it worth it? TWF costs the build four feats and provides, in most cases, a marginal amount of damage: 2 avg. from the weapon dice and the extra damage from weapon enchantments (at low to middle levels, I'd estimate around 2-4 from greater magic weapon and another 3.5-7 avg. from elemental enchantments), so around 5.5-11 damage. The low end of this range isn't much better than taking Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and the Greater versions, which requires a net four feats while also granting +2 to hit (instead of -2). If you consider that the THFer could just choose to Power Attack that extra +4 attack bonus to +8 damage and come out the same as the TWFer even when they both wield quite respectable weapons, it doesn't seem that under normal conditions the damage bonus from TWFing is worth it (since Snow mentioned that Weapon Focus et al. aren't worth it for the build, which I agree with).
The one big advantage to using TWF with the build is that it gives you more trip attacks. Assuming that TWF doubles your number of attacks (which, for most of your career, it does), if P is the probability that you trip an opponent, then 1 - (1 - P)^2 or 2P - P^2 is the probability that you trip with two attacks. This factor has diminishing marginal returns: when P is low, two attacks is almost as good as doubling your chance to trip, while when P is large, it provides at best a small increase in the chance to trip. Snow, in you play testing, what were typical trip probabilities? Was the reason that this build performed better than the half-orc THF tripper because of the improved trip chance?
The analysis in the prior paragraph doesn't take into one of the problems with TWFing, though: decreased reach. How much of a benefit is better tripping while you're TWFing? An implicit assumption above was that you take each melee attack or pair of melee attacks against a separate target. When you're large and in THF-reach mode, with 20' reach, you can cover most of a typical D&D melee, so this is a reasonable assumption. With TWFing, though, you're looking at, at best, 10' reach. Your decreased reach has two effects: when you full attack, you can't spread your attacks as well over the battlefield, meaning that you have to attack each opponent more times; and you get fewer AoOs. The second effect obviously hurts TWFing, since you're taking fewer attacks. The first also hurts it, because it decreases the marginal trip-probability benefit TWF offers over THF.
[Mathematical digression: The reason is that the general formula for tripping given N attacks is 1 - (1 - P)^N. If you graph several of these curves for different N (try 1, 2, 3, and 4), it's clear that each additional attack improves the trip chance less than the one before it. Another way to see this is to note that the derivative of 1 - (1 - P)^N with respect to N is ln(1 - P) (1 - P)^N, which, since 0 < P < 1, is obviously smaller as N increases.]
That last paragraph was rather complicated, but the basic idea is that TWF is at its best when the THFer is taking one attack per opponent and the TWFer is taking two. However, attempting to make sure that you can spread your attacks like this, while also using TWFing, are conflicting goals. Now, my expectation is that even the THFer, between haste and lots of AoOs, will be making two to three AoOs per opponent per round anyways, which I would expect to more or less maximize the benefit you get from additional attacks as far as trip probabilities go. Does the play-testing comparison with the half-orc back this up, or is my intuition wrong?
I get the impression that Side Step is critical to the build. I'm inclined to agree with nihility's opinion earlier in the thread:
In general, this feat seems extremely problematic when used in this fashion. Are this issues dealt with in the Mini Handbook? If not, or if it does indeed work in this fashion, then I think this feat is highly abusable. I should note that, based on what I have seen of it, I feel that the Mini Handbook does not appear to be balanced against standard D&D material, and thus I would expect to see things that are abusable within core D&D material or appear to create rules problems. I believe this concern has been raised before.
edit:
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the rules are not well-prepared to handle people deciding to move when it is not their turn. That said, this seems to be a amazingly strong feat. Forget avoiding full attacks (as if that wasn't enough), if you're careful you might be virtually immune to melee attacks of any kind from anything that has a shorter reach than you.
I don't like the Miniatures Handbook. I think that much of its material is poorly balanced, poorly thought out, or both. Since I, as a DM, would never allow Side Step in a game, both because of its potential to cause for game-slowing rules arguments/judgment calls and because I consider it overpowered, I wouldn't play Side Step as a player in most games. Given this, how much does this build rely on Side Step for defense? I would be concerned that using Karmic Strike would hurt a lot if you couldn't dodge full attacks with Side Step, but I haven't seen how effective the build is at avoiding full attacks using other methods.
As a final question, Snow, how would you distribute the abilities in say, 32 point buy? The build needs at least 15 Str, 19 Dex, and 13 Int (presuming you aren't going to rely on magic items). Assuming stat pumps go into Dex, that's a minimum of 19 points, but in practice the build has to start with 16 Dex to take IWTF at 6th level. Since there's little reason to get Str 15 and not pick up the extra attack bonus for levels 1st-4th and the extra damage always, Str should be 16 as well. Int might as well be 14, since allocating points elsewhere is useless. This leaves 6 points to distribute between Wis and Con, so both the build's Will save and hit points will be subpar. I don't even want to think about trying this on a lower point buy or a bad roll.
What armor do you think would be best with it? Normally with high Dex builds I go with the mithral breastplate, but in this case Karmic Strike benefits from low AC and the extra damage reduction from adamatine, and the only things you lose from wearing heavier armor are AC and movement (which, once you get some speed boosts, is usually survivable). Also, opting for adamantine full-plate, say, frees up armor enchantment to optimize for non-AC forms of damage resistance. I've never tried this strategy, and it seems risky, to say the least. If you go light armor and optimize for AC, though, is Karmic Strike worth it?
Regarding side step, at least you can only do it once a round. So against multiple opponents, you're probably going to catch one full attack at some point, unless positioning is such that your five foot step takes you far away enough from the other opponent so it can't five foot step into range, or if you can keep everything around you tripped with TWF.
I am thinking of the following build (only 3.5)
1 Swashbuckler/6fighter/3 exotic weapon master/2 wolf totem barb
/4fighter/4tempest
Does anyone has a better proposal. Maybe removing tempest?
More specificaly are there any good 3,5 builds?
With Shiba Protector, I've managed to kill a charging Stone Golem on it's own turn.
Even if it doesn't break pre-epic, I think that it does in epic. Get your friendly arcane caster to PAO you into something big, then double your reach with a spiked chain, then Epic Dodge, Sidestep, and Defensive Throw. Your opponent always misses their first attack due to Epic Dodge, which activates Defensive Throw, giving you an AoO to trip them, which activates Sidestep, allowing you to take a 10' step (DC 40 Tumble check, which you should automake in epic) away from them. No single melee enemy should even be able to damage you.
How often do you go against just one melee target? There's usually a second one around, at least, and that's a bit of a weakness with this guy. It's where the TWF extra attacks come in. (I favor the spiked armor/gauntlets + spiked chain, myself...)
Or am I wrong?
Monk 1 Rogue 3. If you would get evasion when you already have evasion you get improved evasion instead.
Or am I wrong?
I'm afraid you are wrong. You will not get improved evasion, you will get nothing since you already have evasion. It doesn't work like Uncanny dodge.
-A
I hear Shadowdancer 1 gives Imp. Evasion, though, as does Thief-Acrobat 2.
I'm afraid you are wrong. You will not get improved evasion, you will get nothing since you already have evasion. It doesn't work like Uncanny dodge.
-A
For some reason i thought he was correct. Im pretty sure ive seen a description for Evasion in some prestige class that says that if you already have Evasion, you get Improved Evasion instead, just like Uncanny Dodge. I think it was Master Thrower.
*EDIT*
I checked the book when i got home, and the description for Evasion for the Master Thrower prestige class does indeed say that if he already has evasion, he gets improved evasion instead. Its the same as any other Evasion otherwise.
Does anyone else know of any other prestige class that does the same?
Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master (CW) 3/War Hulk (MH) 10
Sadly War Hulk makes you lose your Exotic Weapon Master levels.
Sadly War Hulk makes you lose your Exotic Weapon Master levels.
Let's not get started on the whole "does losing a requirement cause the loss of prestige class features" debate again. It rages on to this day.
Does anyone else know of any other prestige class that does the same?
There are others; several of the newer classes offer this (can't recall the exact list). But it's a class-specific thing; while some specifically allow stackable evasion, the others do not.
Rogue2/Monk2 does not. Shadowdancer does not (you get evasion at level 2, Imp. Evasion at level 9 or 10.) Extreme Explorer (Eberron) does.
Thief-Acrobat gets improved evasion, but requires Evasion to enter.
Yakuza (OA) skips evasion entirely and goes right to Improved Evasion.
i want your help -- i'am doing a psy-warrior based on your build, but..
i dont know if i go through using 1-handed meele wepon
with expansion (got bonus damage and trip bonus)
or
go to TWF chain
with strenght of my enemy (this many attacks will grant me a nice STR bonus)
32 point-buy, i think going to TWF it's better but the low psy-war BAB will hurt,what do you think will be best ?
I am attempting to make a level six pc for a FR campaign and this looks to be nigh on perfect, however what would you suggest Snow for the Attributes. Where is double hit from, and Knock down, I don't seem to be able to find them. What are they're texts if possible to post.
Thanks Snow for a great build,
and thanks to anyone who feels froggy about answering the Q's
Elvnsword
I like the way you use your chain spike.
Perhaps the Kusari Gama(DMG P.145) is a better weapon for this build.
wield one in each hand?
Apologies if this was mentioned and I missed it.
Dear Snow;
Perhaps the Kusari Gama(DMG P.145) is a better weapon for this build.
wield one in each hand?
Apologies if this was mentioned and I missed it.
There's a weapon in OA that's even better that we've discussed -- the kuwanga. Especially with Oversized TWF.
I believe you meant the Kawanga, right? How is this better than two Kusari-gama, which can simultaneously TWF, reach, and trip or 1d6 each?
I believe the Kawanga is double OR reach, not simultaneously both, and 1d3 damage.
I am not very comfortable with weapon optimization rules, so if you have time, please explain in detail. I thank you.
I searched the thread and could find no referance to kusari-gamas. Perhaps I am blind and you can tell me the post number?
Sidestep doesn't help you avoid full attacks if you're using Double Hit with a Chain. The full attacker can take his 5 foot step after you and resume his full attack. You are allowed to take your 5 foot step between attacks during a full attack, just not between an attack and it's Cleave attack.
This build will be tripping the attacker and then stepping back. The attacker will not be able to continue his attack cause he can not 5 foot step while prone.
This build will be tripping the attacker and then stepping back. The attacker will not be able to continue his attack cause he can not 5 foot step while prone.
That's only possible, not a guarantee. +8 to trip from feats and a low strength is hardly a gurantee.
Never thought I'd ever play a straight fighter, but looks like I will this time.
http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=216
:D
I can't believe no one's posted this yet...
http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=216
:D
I was considering it, but I couldn't connect to the boards this morning when I read it.
I think he's mocking us. :D
(Scary thing: After I showed this board (and a few threads, including this one) to a friend, guess what he shows up as in our next game. A very similar fate befell him there, although it wasn't a cliff so much as a wall of fire. He ended up cornered, and the psion gave him a little Energy Push.)
But how exactly is Roy provoking two attacks of opportunity? (and shouldn't the half-ogre have 20' reach?)
But how exactly is Roy provoking two attacks of opportunity?
He's leaving two threatened squares: the square 15 feet away, and the square 10 feet away. I'm not clear why the half-ogre's using Spring Attack. Wouldn't a normal attack then move suffice? Better to spend those feats on Improved Trip.
and shouldn't the half-ogre have 20' reach?
Yep. Also, Roy's charges shouldn't be stopped simply because he's been hit.
But leaving two square threatened by the same enemy only provokes a single attack of opportunity since the movement/charge is a single action (p.138 PHB).
Might be Hold the Line or (gasp - it's in the build) Double Hit.
As for the stopping him, that's Stand Still.
But leaving two square threatened by the same enemy only provokes a single attack of opportunity since the movement/charge is a single action (p.138 PHB).
Oops. Good to know.
As for the stopping him, that's Stand Still.
True, but you'd think he'd have mentioned that - it would have raised the number of feats spent, which would have reinforced the moral of the story.
Might be Hold the Line or (gasp - it's in the build) Double Hit.
As for the stopping him, that's Stand Still.
Would Hold the Line grant you two AoO's against a charging opponent? (assuming you have 15'+ reach). I read it as replacing your typical AoO and letting you make one for the enemy entering your space, but I could also see it being interpreted as granting an extra AoO.
edit: re-reading the feat, hold the line lets you make an AoO just before the charge attack resolves. So lets say you only have a 10' reach, an opponent charges, you make you AoO for them leaving the square 10' away from you, then take the HtL AoO for them entering your 5' square...
True, but you'd think he'd have mentioned that - it would have raised the number of feats spent, which would have reinforced the moral of the story.
Which was still silly, considering that he had Spring Attack and a reach weapon: he could have simply moved around poor Roy rather than backing himself over a cliff. ... Seems kind of a straw man moral to me.
Which was still silly, considering that he had Spring Attack and a reach weapon: he could have simply moved around poor Roy rather than backing himself over a cliff. ... Seems kind of a straw man moral to me.
Jesus.... it's a JOKE!! JOKE, J-O-K-E! Stop reading so much into it, lol.
Jesus.... it's a JOKE!! JOKE, J-O-K-E! Stop reading so much into it, llol.
But if we can't geek out on the D&D boards, where can we?
Oh, and I'm still not clear what Spring Attack added to the tactic.
A very similar fate befell him there, although it wasn't a cliff so much as a wall of fire. He ended up cornered, and the psion gave him a little Energy Push.)
Couldn't such a tactic shut down any melee character?
Jesus.... it's a JOKE!! JOKE, J-O-K-E! Stop reading so much into it, lol.
:D I'm well aware it's a joke. The post was a response to the previous post.
Hey, I love me some oots. I 'specially loved the 3.0->3.5 conversion strip.
Jesus.... it's a JOKE!! JOKE, J-O-K-E! Stop reading so much into it, lol.
Eh, jokes are funnier when they stand up under scrutiny anyway.
Couldn't such a tactic shut down any melee character?
Yes. I said he went through a similar fate, in that his own stupidity and overreliance on his tactics got him killed. I never said it had the same sense of poetic justice, though.
If the only melee opponents that you need to worry about are the ones with tumble and spring attack, then I don't think you have much to worry about. Sure, your DM could decide that every opponent suddenly has a high tumble or Spring Attack, but your DM can kill your character on a whim anyway.
Actually, you wouldn't necessarily need to worry about opponents with Spring Attack either, as Spring Attack doesn't really allow any greater protection against AOO's than Charging does. It only allows you to move again after you attack.
One question though. Where do you get the Karmic Strike Feat? I haven't seen it.
A.
For those who don't know, Mouthpick weapons are from the Beholder chapter. +1 equivalent weapon bonus that allows the weapon to be wielded from the mouth of any creature with a bite attack. Designed to allow Beholders and similar to use weapons if they so desire, and good for druids who want to be able to use weapons when they wildshape, but lots of potential for any creature with a bite.
Race - Azurin
1 - Barbarian 1 - Wolf Berserker, Jotunbrud(R), Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Bracers)(F), Exotic Weapon (Chain)(F)
2 - Barbarian 2 - Improved Trip(B)
3 - Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse (B), Midnight Dodge
4 - Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise(B)
5 - Fighter 2 - Two-Weapon Fighting (B)
6 - Rogue 1 - Combat Reflexes(B), Deft Opportunist
7 - Rogue 2 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(B)
8 - Psychic Warrior 1 - Mobility(B)
9 - Psychic Warrior 2 - Side Step(B), Karmic Strike
10 - Psychic Warrior 3 -
11 - Psychic Warrior 4 -
12 - Psychic Warrior 5 - Sidestep Charge(B), Knock Down
13 - Fighter 3 -
14 - Fighter 4 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting(B)
15 - Fighter 5 - Power Attack
16 - Fighter 6 - Hold the Line(B)
17 - Fighter 7 -
18 - Fighter 8 - Spring Attack(B), Improved Initiative
19 - Fighter 9 -
20 - Fighter 10 - Improved Disarm(B)
I don't have the Miniatures Handbook on me, so I can't check on Sidestep and Double Hite, and I'm fairly exhausted, so I may have missed some prerequisites.
Should only be using material from the follwing books - Miniatures Handbook, Unapproachable East, Sword and Fist, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Oriental Adventures.
Using the following variants from Unearthed Arcana- - Wolf Totem barbarian, Feat Rogue variant, Flaws, and Whirling Frenzy
Makes on hell of a tripper without hardly any strength
Trip Modifiers
Level 1 - +4 Jotunbrud, +4 Wolf Berserker, +4 Mauling Guantlets = +12 Trip (+14 in Rage)
Level 2 - +4 Jotunbrud, +4 Wolf Berserker, +4 Mauling Guantlets, +4 Improved Trip = +16 Trip (+18 in Rage)
Level 6 - +4 Jotunbrud, +4 Wolf Berserker, +6 Mauling Guantlets, +4 Improved Trip = +18 Trip, (+20 in rage)
Then add another +4 once you get a +1 Sweeping chain. And as far as I can tell, it retains the functionality and battle field control ability, ending with a +17 attack bonus.
Somewhere down the road tho, I want to convert the Gatling Chain Gun Tripper into a Ftr heavy build, but with some levels in the new Martial Adept classes.
Blunt chain link? It's sounds like the flind bar of second edition for me.
So your char have very high DEX in order to use TWF with the blunt chain link.
So I think you use none DEX penalty armor such as bracers of defense, amulet of natural armor or that ioun stone.
Nice build for a pure fighter character, the first I see.
Blunt chain link? It's sounds like the flind bar of second edition for me.
So your char have very high DEX in order to use TWF with the blunt chain link.
So I think you use none DEX penalty armor such as bracers of defense, amulet of natural armor or that ioun stone.
The "blunt" chain is in Oriental Adventures (it's actually just called a "chain").
Hu= Jotenbrud
01= EWP: Chain (Combat Expertise)
02= (Imp. Trip)
03= Combat Reflexes
04= (Weapon Finesse)
05=
06= TWF (Imp. TWF)
07=
08= (Dodge)
09= Karmic Strike
10= (Mobility)
11=
12= Side Step (Double Hit)
13=
14= (Greater TWF)
15= Deft Opportunist
16= (Spring Attack)
17=
18= Knock-Down (Power Attack)
19=
20= (Hold The Line)
XO,
Snow
Why not do knock-down feat before? It is quite efective. And were come side step, Karmic Strike amd Jotenbrud from?
*Jotenbrud - Races of Faerun
Karmic Strike - Complete Warrior
Side Step - Miniatures Handbook
Double Hit - Miniatures Handbook
Deft Opportunist - Complete Adventurer
*Knock Down - Sword and Fist
Hold the Line - Complete Warrior
Feats marked with a * are 3.0
And I beleive Knock Down was placed so late because it simply adds effectivenss to the build. It is not 100% vital to get early, where as the other feats need to be gained as soon as possible.
*Knock Down - Sword and Fist
Also the SRD. (Divine Abilities & Feats). So fully 3.5.
:P
Where's she at , anyway ??
I'm building a character like this but my DM thinks you can't make trip attacks as AOO can anyone point to the place where it states you can.
9" - good bump, Snow isn't listed as a ZombieGleemax, so I guess she's around ?
AoO and Trips, hmm ...
www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOppor...
" ... An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack ... "
Trip is a single melee attack, therefore it's OK.
Maybe your DMs problem, is it feels like too many dice rolls, on combat jack ups.
This build is from 4+ years ago, and isn't nearly as strong as later fighters, like Lock builds.
Any 9th level caster is better too. This is just a very significant milepost.
So your DM might let you, might not let you, but it's not a teribly important decision.
If your DM says no, try to negotiate for a goodie in return.
Wouldn't Robilar's Gambit be better than Karmic Strike for granting AoOs?
I found that this build is still relavant all these years later, which is awesome. I just stopped to link this to another thread in another forum. Snow Savant has an awesome build here.