Each match will be played twice; first with one buff round, the second with no buff rounds.
1: Match one allows all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine.
2: Match two allows the fighter all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine while the wizard is stuck with core material.
3: Match three is core-only for both sides.
Brackets
1: "Pure."
A fighter must take every level as fighter and a wizard must take every level as wizard.
2: "Hybrid."
A fighter may be any class that does not result in him getting a level of any 'full' casting or manifesting class. (No wizard, psion, sorcerer, cleric, druid, wu jen, healer... Blackguard, prestige paladin, paladin, psychic warrior, ranger, hexblade, bard... are OK.) Martial adept levels are allowed and encouraged.
At each level, a wizard must take a level in a class that progresses wizardly spellcasting. (You could be a wizard5/wayfarer guide3 with the casting ability of a level 7 wizard, but no cleric, sorcerer, paladin, psion... for you.)
Environment
A 100'x100'x100' closed-top, closed-sides arena. The entire area is lit well enough so humans can see without hindrance.
Rules
1: Each person gets the standard amount of wealth by ECL. Forcing a genie to grant you a wish so you can get more money (via an item, selling a wall of iron...) won't work, but forcing said genie to cast other spells to aid you during the fight is OK. (It can use wish to reproduce heal, for example.)
2: No infinite or NI loops. Sorry, Pun-Pun.
3: The core rules are defined to include only the PHB, DMG, and first MM. The latest eratta is used for all.
4: The rules as written will be used unless it produces an infinite or a nearly infinite loop.
5: Any called creature (such as via gate or planar binding) can call creatures, but it must wait at least 1 minute (10 rounds) to do so. Thus using gate to call a solar will bring in a solar, but it can only use gate 10 rounds after appearing. This change subverts an infinite loop.
6: Custom magic items are allowed as per the DMG's formulas. Standard items are priced as normal. (No Thought Bottles or artifacts.)
7: If you're out of the arena on its native plane for more than 1 round during the fight, you lose.
8: Magic/Psionic transparency is in place.
The last rule is quite biased against casters, and eliminates several tricks they could use.
Edit: Oh yeah, what about buffs? Permanent spells? Paying spellcasters to cast things for you? Pre-cast Contingencies?
Are we going to play these out roll by roll, figure out who's most likely to win statistically, or what?
I could see this thing becoming something like that "overpowered casters" thread on here a while back, except that thread actually had more relevance to the game as it is normally played.
7: If you're out of the arena on its native plane for more than 1 round during the fight, you lose.
Buff- the spell that basically gaurentees first init.
Wizard round 1- gate under fighter, 20 diameter, fighter has no method to get out. (unless magic flying item, if so, see Mordrakiens DJ and try again.) Then closes gate.
Wizard wins.
OP- you will get more serious takers if you pose default "fighter/wizard" builds or a deadline, or some more structure to the thread.
I have no motivation to build a 20 wizard, if there is not a good chance it will be put to use.
The Haunt Shift trick can be done at level 9, and would make the Wizard virtually invincible to anything the Fighter could do, so that would work. Also, Shadowcraft Mages should be able to do the Major Creation Black Lotus trick at level 9 as well, which is a pretty much gaurenteed one shot TKO.
JaronK
OP- you will get more serious takers if you pose default "fighter/wizard" builds or a deadline, or some more structure to the thread.
I have no motivation to build a 20 wizard, if there is not a good chance it will be put to use.
I'm gonna have to agree with Krusk a little. Including prestiges really really makes this almost undoable because the format is presented in a manner that the Wizard build is presented first then any produced Fighter build that beats it nullifies that particular build.
I also agree that not allowing the Wizard to remain on other planes is a little bit of a hinderance, though I see the reasoning behind doing so. Instead I suggest that the Wizard must be present for the fight and should he be unable to act on the original plane for a full round then he be disqualified.
Note that the objective is to get as low level as possible with the Wizard and still win.
The Haunt Shift trick can be done at level 9, and would make the Wizard virtually invincible to anything the Fighter could do, so that would work. Also, Shadowcraft Mages should be able to do the Major Creation Black Lotus trick at level 9 as well, which is a pretty much gaurenteed one shot TKO.
JaronK
Not to mention all the nice defenses Wizards can have at that point already.
Heck, basic stub build:
Gnome Illusionist 6/Shadowcraft Mage 3 with two flaws, taking Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Spell Focus Illusion, and Residual Metamagic, taking the gnomish racial substitution for Illusionists, and banning Evocation and Enchantment. Now you can cast 6th level spells at level 9, and you can cast Major Creation as a Standard Action (creating a giant puddle of Black Lotus Poison around the target... anyone not immune must make a few hundred saves vs DC 20 or take 3d6 con damage for every failed save). Plus, you can do the haunt shift thing, making a movable body for yourself out of Obdurium and then casting Augment Object on it so it has a hardness of 60... remember that damage against objects is generally halved, so you're ignoring the first 120 damage from every hit. And of course you've got automatic concealment and such. Not bad.
There's more you can do with that build, but that's a good start, and should easily drop a Fighter 20 at level 9.
JaronK
I have no motivation to build a 20 wizard, if there is not a good chance it will be put to use.
In the wizard 20th vs. fighter 20th threat you can read nearly a thousand ways to beat the fighter. The challenge here is: Build a low-level wizard to beat the fighter 20th! No need for 20th level wizard building!
And ban leadership. If I can build a 17th level wizard that beats a fighter, you can copy it, tack on a level, and call it your cohort.
Keeping Leadership provokes an interesting problem.
Let's assume the Fighter 20 has a level 17 Cohort of some sort.
The cohort has to be the Race and the Class SINGULAR , that the fighter attracts initially.
Let's say the Fighter takes Leadership at level 6, and attracts a Caster level 4.
To have any old build of it, requires finding a Psion with Psychic Reformation.
Wizard 17 (or lower) has no such problem.
Perhaps the comparo now is:
Wizard 17 as Cohort w/ restrictions
vs.
Wizard 16 (or less) with build-orama
I'm'n'a vote for the Wizard 16,
because the Fighter 20 has to make a pile of Knowledge Arcana checks, and tell the Cohort what to do.
**
How many of these threads do we need, now really ?!
JaronK
Abusers interpret the wording of the feat to mean you're casting a higher-level spell, not a lower level spell Heightened to the effect of a higher level spell. Meaning you are restricted to 5th level spells and spells that can pop up in a 5th level slot. THe Heighten effect just lets you bypass Globes of Invuln and gives the enemy a save penalty. Nothing in the feat says it allows you to sub in spells of higher level then the source spell.
Ditto the whole Haunt SHift, which also relies on at least 3 instances of stretched ruling to pull off, most of which instantly make the character ineligible to be shifted as soon as he stops using them...generally by succeeding!
Also, Black Lotus Poison can be effectively kept at bay forever by a potion of SLow Poison or something similar until you get it cured by any of a hundred effects (including Iron heart Surge), a Sword of Dispelling will get rid of all his magical effects with a dispel at every hit, and/or I believe there's items that allow you to rust away anything made of Obdurium just like any other metal.
Better yet, just drop a rust monster on him.
How a 9th level character affords something made out of Obdurium is another issue.
I'm also pretty sure there's effects out there that allow you to ignore the hardness of items, and if that fails, remember that 9th level character has crap for saves. Use the shield that simply annihilates him, maybe with some hexblade or blackguard levels to lower his save a bit.
So, eh, 9th level just isn't going to hack it. It doesn't even compensate for the AM Torc or Ray and getting hacked dead via Power Attack once you lose all your magical effects.
===Aelryinth
As I mentioned, the SCM has Earth Spell and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell). Using his SCM abilities, he can use Silent Image like Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation. Also, due to his substitution level he gets Silent Image as a level 0 spell. So, when he heightens the spell to the maximum level he can, it becomes a 6th level spell (Easy Metamagic means this uses a 5th level slot, which at level 9 he has). Earth Spell then kicks that up to a 7th level spell. He can now use his 7th level Silent Image to shadow cast any 6th level Evocation, Conjuration (Summoning), or Conjuration (Creation) Wizard spell of his choice, and gets +6 CL for his trouble. Due to Residual Metamagic, he can do the exact same thing next round, except it only uses a level 0 slot the second time, effectively doubling his highest level spell slots as long as he uses them for Shadow spells and casts them in succession.
JaronK
as ael stated above, unfortunately casting a heightened silent image to 6th is not casting shadow conjuration. you are still restricted to using silent image, only it is at a higher save DC, as well as receiving any increased quasi-reality bonuses from shadow illusion.
as ael stated above, unfortunately casting a heightened silent image to 6th is not casting shadow conjuration. you are still restricted to using silent image, only it is at a higher save DC, as well as receiving any increased quasi-reality bonuses from shadow illusion.
Heighten Spell
Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
as ael stated above, unfortunately casting a heightened silent image to 6th is not casting shadow conjuration. you are still restricted to using silent image, only it is at a higher save DC, as well as receiving any increased quasi-reality bonuses from shadow illusion.
There's a reason Ael is still on my ignore list (but thank you for pointing out what he said). Please review the Shadowcraft Mage rules, as well as the Shadow Conjuration spell, and Heighten Spell. It works just fine, and there's nothing even vaguely dodgy about it. You are indeed casting a 7th level Silent Image, which for all purposes is a 7th level spell (though it uses only a 6th level slot). Since it follows the rules for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, it can duplicate any lower level conjuration (if of the right subtypes) or lower level evocation... that means any 6th level spell of the right type.
JaronK
There's a reason Ael is still on my ignore list (but thank you for pointing out what he said). Please review the Shadowcraft Mage rules, as well as the Shadow Conjuration spell, and Heighten Spell. It works just fine, and there's nothing even vaguely dodgy about it. You are indeed casting a 7th level Silent Image, which for all purposes is a 7th level spell (though it uses only a 6th level slot). Since it follows the rules for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, it can duplicate any lower level conjuration (if of the right subtypes) or lower level evocation... that means any 6th level spell of the right type.
JaronK
hmph
apparently you're right, only it's under "shadow illusion" in the shadowcraft mage PrC. i hadn't noticed that previously, i had thought it a misunderstood loophole.
JaronK
hmph
apparently you're right, only it's under "shadow illusion" in the shadowcraft mage PrC. i hadn't noticed that previously, i had thought it a misunderstood loophole.
It's still using wording and effect to do what you want to accomplish.
What you've got is a 5th level spell getting tossed out there to 7th level effect.
IF you swap it for an actual 7th level spell, then suddenly you'd have a 9th spell Heightened, as your original abilities would suddenly apply all over again. that also makes no sense.
The only time you get to swap is with the spell in the original spell slots. Then you get the level bonus of +2 effective levels...but you're still restricted to your original spell slots.
If you can't get 100% DM agreement on how it is going to work, then you can't apply it as a rule. basically, it's a hackneyed attempt to apply Cheap Metamagic to Heighten Spell, which you can't use with things that reduce Metamagic Effects cost (because there is no cost).
Instead, the language is turned around to grant bonus spell levels, instead of being interpreted for its real effect...giving a higher spell DC/SPell level for contested checks.
If you can find a DM that allows you to cast higher level spells then you can cast, go right ahead (this IS what you are doing, right? It's like giving all your Fighters +4 BAB and +4 feats for nothing). What they are going to do is apply the Heighten effect as a free bonus to the end of the spell, not as an excuse to cast spells beyond your spell slots are able to hold. If you can justify how are stuffing a level 6 or 7 spell into a level 5 slot at ANY time during this 'swap', I'll agree with you. There's nothing in the feat descriptions that actually changes the 'spell slot' the spell occupies...and you can't shove a level 6 spell into a lower slot...not even with Sanctum Spell. Sanctum Spell makes it a level less, but it's still occupying that higher level slot. Nothing has changed. There's no + or- LA listed in the spell feat, yes?
As for Genesis, most DM's will simply not recognize 'time' as a trait the Player is able to manipulate, look at the other versions of Genesis, confirm that time has been ruled to be unaffected by PC's, and go on from there, not automatically devolving to 'the arcane version of the spell is superior to the other two, because it was made first.'
Again, jaron is just devolving to 'most favorable rules interpretation' for his bag of broken tricks. Kindly note he doesn't even play with such rules, because he knows they'd be shot down...he just likes to throw them out there to no special purpose.
==Aelryinth
1. Identify if Fighter has a flight item.
2. Sunder said item with a damaging spell.
3. Fly.
So, that'd be, what, able to cast one 4th level spell?
Wind Wall vs. pesky AMF/Disjunction arrows, probably.
Alternatively, I bet an Outsider or Aberration could do something interesting with an Alter Self.
As for Genesis, most DM's will simply not recognize 'time' as a trait the Player is able to manipulate, look at the other versions of Genesis, confirm that time has been ruled to be unaffected by PC's, and go on from there, not automatically devolving to 'the arcane version of the spell is superior to the other two, because it was made first.
We all know that a DM will win any given player every time if he wants. You don't need to waste valuable internet space to tell us that.
Even if the Fighter wins Initiative, it still has to be close enough to move to engage the Adept / Wizard.
Adept / Wizard has to be incapable of activating a Fly or Polymorph type effect; probably because the Fighter closed quickly.
At any given level, a Built Wizard of Level (-1 of Fighter's Cohort) , will be better than the Fighter's Cohort Wizard.
So,
Fighter 6 with Cohort Wizard 4 (non-CO just yet) vs. CO Wizard 3
How often can the Wizard win initiative, and thus win ?
How often can the Wizard lose initiative, but still get off a winning combo ??
CO Wizard 2 with Mercantile Feat, will have the gear necessary to win, but might have initiative problems.
**
How 'bout that other thread(s) ?!
We all know that a DM will win any given player every time if he wants. You don't need to waste valuable internet space to tell us that.
Devolving to the ONE interpretation of a spell that favors your broken ruling is the height of munchkinism, but Jaron keeps trotting it out,so people need to be reminded of how the game really works, thanks.
==+Aelryinth
Devolving to the ONE interpretation of a spell that favors your broken ruling is the height of munchkinism, but Jaron keeps trotting it out,so people need to be reminded of how the game really works, thanks.
==+Aelryinth
I am sure we all know DM fiat can make anything useless. Sure, even I wouldn't allow Genesis to be used like that, but that's how it works.
Now, should that be allowed? Of course not, just like Shapechange shouldn't give spellcasting and Flesh to Salt shouldn't give endless wealth and Planar Binding shouldn't give free endless wishes. And I fully expect DMs to fix such problems accordingly... I know I do, in various ways. But once again, Ael has made the old mistake of confusing how the rules are for how they should be. House rule away Ael, but don't pretend your house rules are RAW... I certainly don't.
JaronK
Wizard 17 cohort with the minor restrictions
vs.
Wizard 15-ish , can have some early stuff to get alot more initiative.
Mercantile feat to have the one or two necessary items.
Only tactic argument ...
Wiz 15 might not need to win initiative vs. the Fighter 20
Wiz 15 might need to win initiative vs. the Wiz 17 cohort
**
So level by level:
1st ........ Fighter probably has to win Initiative to have a chance
2nd ....... Wizard wins
3-5 ....... Wizard 2 wins
6th ........ Wizard 2 probably has to win initiative vs. both Fighter 6 and Wizard 3/4 cohort
7+ ......... Fighter goes and gets a Psychic Reformation for the cohort Wizard
................ Wizard just needs to be better than the cohort Wizard, and beat it's initiative; prolly one or two levels down.
Did I miss anything ?
Exactly. My interpretation (that Planar Traits are part of the environment, and you can have any environment you want) is not only crystal clear, it's also backed up by the divine version of the spell (which has the same wording but then disallows time traits... which would be unnecessary if traits themselves weren't allowed by that wording). So yes, mucking with time is allowed via Genesis, explicitly.
Now, should that be allowed? Of course not, just like Shapechange shouldn't give spellcasting and Flesh to Salt shouldn't give endless wealth and Planar Binding shouldn't give free endless wishes. And I fully expect DMs to fix such problems accordingly... I know I do, in various ways. But once again, Ael has made the old mistake of confusing how the rules are for how they should be. House rule away Ael, but don't pretend your house rules are RAW... I certainly don't.
JaronK
+1.
So, I'll summarize: Aelryinth doesn't understand how these abilities/spells function. Go read the class feature, then read shadow conjuration. Then, read Heighten Spell and Earth Spell to understand how they work in combination with the class feature. The combo isn't all that hard to follow, it just has pieces in different books that you need to look at together to understand them.
Well, the forums ate a nice long post explaining how the ScM's Shadow Illusion ability works, and how shadow conjuration/evocation in general work.
So, I'll summarize: Aelryinth doesn't understand how these abilities/spells function. Go read the class feature, then read shadow conjuration. Then, read Heighten Spell and Earth Spell to understand how they work in combination with the class feature. The combo isn't all that hard to follow, it just has pieces in different books that you need to look at together to understand them.
Nah, I understand exactly what they are trying to do...I just don't agree with the interpretation that goes with it, and I don't believe you can stuff a higher-level spell into a lower level spell slot...which is exactly what is being done here. That's even worse then +free LA for metamagic, which we all know can get broken really fast.
So, don't presume I 'don't know'. I 'know', I just 'don't agree'. There's a difference there. Most of JaronK's arguments come down to favorable interpretation of the rules in the wizard's favor like this. I can see exactly what they are trying to do, and I understand it. I just don't agree.
==Aelryinth
Nah, I understand exactly what they are trying to do...I just don't agree with the interpretation that goes with it, and I don't believe you can stuff a higher-level spell into a lower level spell slot...which is exactly what is being done here. That's even worse then +free LA for metamagic, which we all know can get broken really fast.
So, don't presume I 'don't know'. I 'know', I just 'don't agree'. There's a difference there. Most of JaronK's arguments come down to favorable interpretation of the rules in the wizard's favor like this. I can see exactly what they are trying to do, and I understand it. I just don't agree.
==Aelryinth
No, apparently you don't understand the mechanics in question.
From the SRD, on Heighten Spell:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Emphasis mine.
Races of Stone, pg. 138, Earth Spell
... If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher ... If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher ... and so on.
Races of Stone, pg. 122, Shadow Illusion ability
... The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell ...
Relevant parts of the feats and ability are quoted above. You can check the sources if you seriously think I'm lying.
Earth Spell explicitly states that you increase the spell level by one over and above the increase from Heightening. That is the whole purpose of the feat. Heighten Spell explicitly states that the spell counts in all ways as a spell of it's new level. Shadow Illusion explicitly lets you cast silent image (among other [figment] spells) to emulate any Sorceror/Wizard Conjuration (creation), (summoning), or Evocation spell of one level lower (exactly as per shadow conjuration/evocation), i.e. for a normal silent image, a 0th-level spell. Since a silent image Earth Spell Heightened to 5th-level in all ways counts as a 6th-level spell, a Gnome Wizard 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3 can now cast a silent image with the effects of any 5th-level or lower Sorc/Wiz Conjuraton (creation), (summoning), or Evocation spell.
This is a very simple ability to understand. There are no rules being bent or "if-I-squint-it-sorta-does-this" interpretations. The rules very clearly lay out how all these abilities function. So, again I state, you don't understand how they work, or you choose not to accept it. If you house rule that the trick doesn't work, that's perfectly fine. Just don't come on here telling people how your house rule works when people are talking about the actual, documented rules.
Edit: Corrected a typo.
Nah, I understand exactly what they are trying to do...I just don't agree with the interpretation that goes with it, and I don't believe you can stuff a higher-level spell into a lower level spell slot...which is exactly what is being done here. That's even worse then +free LA for metamagic, which we all know can get broken really fast.
So, don't presume I 'don't know'. I 'know', I just 'don't agree'. There's a difference there. Most of JaronK's arguments come down to favorable interpretation of the rules in the wizard's favor like this. I can see exactly what they are trying to do, and I understand it. I just don't agree.
==Aelryinth
sorry, it's not interpretation, it's just how it states it works.
you'll ignore me, but i don't care.
I doubt he's even read Races of Stone.
JaronK
JaronK: Aelryinth has again discovered the number one rule in D&D: DM is always right.
on the CO boards, DM adjudication has no place. play by the rules.
It's a community service.
JaronK
Heh, fair enough. Maybe his DM keeps saying "you interpret the rules as being what they say, but I interpret them as being what I say!" and he's just helpfully passing this along to the rest of us, so that if we ever play with his DM we'll be prepared.
It's a community service.
JaronK
Wonder if I can shorten my sentence with this...
on the CO boards, DM adjudication has no place. play by the rules.
On any boards, actually. None of us have a common DM (well, few of us) so we must indeed discuss the rules as they are by RAW. I've said this to Ael many a time, but he's never been able to get it, and always ends up ranting about how in my games anything goes by the all holy RAW, never realizing that "we discuss RAW here" isn't the same as "I always play RAW in my games."
JaronK
That said, can we just agree to disagree and get back to showing how much better the mage is to a fighter?
Or better yet, someone put out a fighter20 build that is expected to beat mages. We'll use -that- as the "control" build, and work on optimized mages from there.
The topic itself is dead because proving casters are better than fighters is like proving NASCAR vehicles are faster than bed ridden paraplegics. Yeah, no
. Now tell us something we don't know. Along the same lines, proving the reverse is an exercise in futility, not unlike that greek guy in myths who had to roll a stone up a slope all day only to have it roll back down at the end.And yes, the SCM thing shouldn't be allowed in most games unless the DM wants a REALLY high powered game.
JaronK
...not unlike that greek guy in myths who had to roll a stone up a slope all day only to have it roll back down at the end.
Sisyphus?
Sisyphus?
Yeah, that.
Rounds
Each round will be played twice; first with one buff round, the second with no buff rounds.
-snip-
2: Round two allows the fighter all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine while the wizard is stuck with core material.
-snip-
Brackets
1: "Pure."
A fighter must take every level as fighter and a wizard must take every level as wizard.
-snip-
These are the importent rounds...
So is there a consensus on what the lowest level a pure level Wizard can beat a 20th level Fighter?
I'm gunning for the 9th level pure-wizard. Alot of powerful spells there even if core-only.
JaronK
Well, as soon as you can Planar Bind Efreetis the whole endless wishes thing would obviously do the trick, and that's core.
JaronK
Yeah, any 11th-level Wizard or higher can pull a win pretty simply.
At 9th, toss a dust of sneezing and choking at him. He's stunned for a minimum of 5 rounds (max of 20!). Use those rounds to poke him with bestow curse until he fails a save or two (a grey elf with a starting Int of 20 can have a DC of 24 for bestow curse in Core. The fighter, with 10 wisdom, has a Will save of +11, assuming he has a +5 resistance item), then magic jar him. Take off all his gear, have a called creature beat him down to 1 HP, then dismiss the spell and have your called creature kill him.
Fighter 20
Psionic race with a 1/2 hd based Psi-like ability
takes Practiced Manifester feat to bump up his ML a little early.
Finds ... (also known as Gets lucky) ... a Polymorph Any Object caster.
Pays for 2 castings.
"Now I'm a Beholder." Happy Face.
Metamorphic Transfer feat twice, second time as a retrain of PracMani.
So, now you're a Beholder Fighter 20 with the good Eyes stuff.
This is basically a below average Beholder, but with all the Fighter 20 goodies.
{ ... this completely ignores the fact that the Wizard can do the exact same thing ... }
Might be an interesting fight.
Assume the Wizard CAN'T get a PAO from his neighborhood Wizard friends.
Beholder Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 14 (with one nerfy houserule)
hmm ...
Show
Quotation marks used because I'm measuring intent rather than actual ability.
Quotation marks used because I'm measuring intent rather than actual ability.
I think Khan's "lockdown" fighter is a decent benchmark. Either that or one of the "archer" fighters on these boards.Show
Quotation marks used because I'm measuring intent rather than actual ability.
Definitely trying for a flame, as the 'lockdown' fighter build is mine, not Khan's. Nice try, however. Khan is truly famous for Pun-Pun.
====================As for your definition of Shadow Conjurtion swapping, what I see up above is a bunch of 5th level spells you have to Heighten to 6th, and they become a virtual 6th. So, they are occupying a 6th level slot, and you're casting them as 7th level versions of 6th level spells...you still have to have that 6th level spells, which the original Heighten goes into, or you can't cast the spells.
Wrong.
In any examples, the caster is a Gnome Illusionist 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3 with Heighten Spell and Earth Spell.
Now, let me explain in very easy steps exactly how this works. Silent image is normally a 1st-level spell. You Heighten it to a 5th-level spell slot. With Earth Spell, it is now treated, for all effects based on spell level, as a 6th-level spell. Next, you use the Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion ability to cast your (effectively) 6th-level silent image emulating any Sor/Wiz Conjuration (creation), Conjuration (summoning) or Evocation spell of one level lower. Since silent image is being cast as a 6th-level spell, you can emulate any 5th-level or lower Sor/Wiz Conjuration (creation), Conjuration (calling) or Evocation spell. Silent image is still occupying a 5th-level spell slot, but for all effects regarding spell level, it is treated as a 6th-level spell. This means save DCs, class features, overcoming globes of invulnerability, etc. It is also, despite whatever spell your are emulating, still treated as silent image for the purposes of spell components, material/XP costs, casting time, and spell resistance. Effects, range, duration, target, and saving throws are all determined based on the spell being emulated, with an added Will save to disbelieve.
There are no Arcane Thesis hijinks, and no additional metamagic required. Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, the Shadow Illusion ability, and silent image.I read nothing in the ability that allows you to violate the core rules of only being able to cast 5th level spells from 5th level spell slots. I didn't see anything allowing 7th level spells to get stuffed into 5th level slots...I saw 5th level spells that could be cast as faux 7th level spells. Trying to swap in a true 7th level spell for your freely Heightened 5th level spell +2 means you now are trying to fit a level 7 spell into a level 5 slot, and you lose the spell.
Earth Spell specifically allows you to treat a Heightened spell as being one level higher than the spell slot it occupies. In this case, you're casting a 5th-level silent image that is treated as a 6th-level spell.I.e. I understand perfectly, and I don't agree. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Mechanically, it's the same as saying "I have arcane thesis and easy metamagic for Empower on my 5th level spell. Because of this, I can swap in a 7th level spell by applying my +LA when and where I want. It's a 5th level spell for filling the slot, and 7th level when I want to swap in another spell with my SC mage."
It's nothing like Arcane Thesis. This isn't a +spell level bump reduction. Earth Spell lets you treat any spell you Heighten as being one level higher than whatever spell slot you Heighten it to. It's the exact opposite of how Arcane Thesis works.Sorry, just doesn't work for me. I don't agree with the language, and I don't agree with the application of the rules. You're calling it a 7th level spell, and I'm calling it a 5th level spell with two free Raises for effect, because it's still restricted by original spell slot it's being cast from.
Except that we're not reducing the cost of Heighten Spell. We're increasing the effective level to which it's heightened. This is the key point you keep missing in all this. It is effectively a 6th-level spell thanks to Earth Spell, being cast out of a 5th-level spell slot. Because of this, we can use Shadow lllusion to cast a heightened silent image to emulate any Sor/Wiz Conjuration (creation), Conjuration (summoning), or Evocation spell of it's actual spell level (because Shadow Illusion limits you to emulating a spell of one level lower than it's effective spell level). In no way is the Shadowcraft Mage getting access to spells above the highest level he can cast.
If you don't like the how it works, you're perfectly able to house rule it in your games. But stop coming on here and telling people how your house rule works.The fact the same people keep slapping one another on the back and proclaiming how smart they are for these rules just makes me laugh all the more at how they are bending things in their favor.
==Aelryinth
There is no bending of the rules involved in the trick. It's simply applying two feats and a class ability (one of which is Core, and the other two printed in the same sourcebook, even!) to vastly increase the versatility of a character's spellcasting.
Im just curious to know ways of beating AMF since I typically play wizards.
I suppose you could just shrink item and drop boulders on the fighter till he dies, unless he can fly also.
Or the wizard could be an initiate of mystra, and cast anyway, but that requires cleric 3.
Does the 20th fighter have its WBL? If so couldnt the fighter simply take an AMF item (AM shackles), and be a race with wings, and (maybe not kill, but at least survive) any wizard that cant gate in something tough enough to kill him?
Im just curious to know ways of beating AMF since I typically play wizards.
I suppose you could just shrink item and drop boulders on the fighter till he dies, unless he can fly also.
Or the wizard could be an initiate of mystra, and cast anyway, but that requires cleric 3.
In a non-core game, you just fly around on your phantom steed and bomb him with Orb spells. I doubt any fighter will have non-magical flight fast and manuverable enough to allow him to actually catch you. Or destroy his AMF item first, then deal with him (of course this won't work if he actually casts it from a scroll with UMD).
Said fighter also has to find and get next to you in the first place while he is in an AMF and you have your full arsenal of spells and items available to evade him. And he has to make you stay within the AMF somehow. And there are tricks to negate an AMF even if you do get caught in one. You just need to block Line of Effect, since it is an emanation.
Maybe a orb specialist build could do it, but that is a specific build.
Lets say he uses his money to buy a pegasus, or gryffin mount. Has an AMF item, and a bow. At low levels it would come down to whoever wittled who down first, unless the wizard is focused on orb spells with metamagic ect.
But the AMF is still on. At +14 fort save (no feats, high con boosting it), he only has to roll like a 6. If the wizard is taking time to use orb spells he isnt going to get far enough away, and the fighter will get to him (flying race) plus orbs are 4th level spells, which you as a wizard low level wont have many of. I dont think orb spells can do the trick unless the wiz is high level.
Maybe a orb specialist build could do it, but that is a specific build.
If the fighter is flying around with a permanent AMF item, then it is pretty much a guarantee that the wizard IS high level...
Phantom Steed has a max speed of 240 (at 12th CL). What's the fastest non-magical flight you can get on a playable fighter-type PC? I'd bet it is low enough that the wizard has plenty enough speed to cast and then move afterwards, and never let the fighter get within charge range.
As far as using a bow, the wizard could be invisible, incorporeal, blinking, with Mirror Images, etc. The fighter isn't going to hit him much. The fighter on the other hand has to rely on his crappy touch AC as a defense against the wizard's orbs, and can't heal himself. In a war of attrition, the wizard will win under these circumstances.
In core it is more difficult for the wizard to actually kill the fighter, as there are very few instantaneous conjuration spells. You mostly have to rely on Shrink Item, Telekinesis, or called creatures. Or you just leave and Scry and Die him later.
But the AMF is still on. At +14 fort save (no feats, high con boosting it), he only has to roll like a 6. If the wizard is taking time to use orb spells he isnt going to get far enough away, and the fighter will get to him (flying race) plus orbs are 4th level spells, which you as a wizard low level wont have many of. I dont think orb spells can do the trick unless the wiz is high level.
Maybe a orb specialist build could do it, but that is a specific build.
14 Fort is at level 20. At which point the DC is around 25 for an unoptimized Wizard, much higher if his starting Intelligence was higher than 16, he has Spell Focus, or he has Heighten.
At level 7 when it first comes up it'd be more like DC 20... but then the save is only +7, and I want to know how he's getting the AMF in the first place. If you were a low level you could just do the invis/fly thing and nickel and dime him down with acid arrows.
This guy has 204 HP unoptimized so far. How many slots are you devoting to your orb of fire, and what level is this wizard?
How many slots are you using orb of fire (as you said using a build to specificly counter)
I'm not going to entertain this discussion until you stop making very specific counters to one of many possibilities, that isn't even the one I was focusing on.
Fighter "human" "necropolitan" 20
AMF shackles (hidden)
Pegasus mount
Archery feats
Mounted archery feats
200ish HP
Does the 20th fighter have its WBL? If so couldnt the fighter simply take an AMF item (AM shackles), and be a race with wings, and (maybe not kill, but at least survive) any wizard that cant gate in something tough enough to kill him?
Im just curious to know ways of beating AMF since I typically play wizards.
I suppose you could just shrink item and drop boulders on the fighter till he dies, unless he can fly also.
Or the wizard could be an initiate of mystra, and cast anyway, but that requires cleric 3.
No non-magically enhanced flying creature short of a big dragon is going to catch a wizard on a phantom steed. AMF items are bad for the fighter. It either leaves him land-bound or with a slow natural fly speed, while the wizard remains gleefully out of range raining shrunken boulders or pit fiends on the fighter's head.
Wall of force is totally unaffected by antimagic field, as are called creatures. You don't even need gate. Any 15th-level Wizard can have a pit fiend/planetar or 5 easily, and no fighter is going to win a fight against either.
JaronK
Planar binding is also very DM dependant so I dont like those arguments. Not to mention I suggested a pegasus, and not using a races natural fly speed.
No, it isn't. It's ridiculously easy to get an auto-win on the Charisma check. At level 11, the wizard can bind efreeti for infinite wishes. This is trivial. So, level 11 is one benchmark for the wizard winning (I assume you can figure out how to beat a fighter with infinite wishes).
I meant planar binding a pit fiend, mid combat and hoping he will do as you ask when I mentioned the DM dependant thing, not pre combat wishes.
Fine, my fighter will do the same (the candle cheese). I thought we wherent doing infinite wish shenanagins, because that always comes down to this kind of situation. Ill agree not to use it in this situation if you do also, though it helps the fighter far far more.
I meant planar binding a pit fiend, mid combat and hoping he will do as you ask when I mentioned the DM dependant thing, not pre combat wishes.
No infinite wish abuse, I forgot about the OP. Too many of these threads floating around.
As to the fiend issue, you can easily bind them before-hand and have them in the fight. Of course, pit fiends aren't necessary. A single efreeti has a good chance of winning all on it's own, via wish's transport option (just have the fighter get transported several miles above the surface of the Positive Energy Plane). Another option is to emulate forcecage, using the barred cell form, and then just have the efreet stab him with a reach weapon, or use a bow and arrow to kill him. Emulating magic jar, having the efreeti strip him of his gear, and then killing the now-naked fighter is also quite simple. The forcecage trick works regardless of antimagic field shenanigans. There are other spells you can emulate, but I think you get the idea.
At 9th level, the wizard gets:
Lesser Planar Binding. He can use this to call a Nightmare, and abuse Astral Projection and Etherealness at will, both 9th level spells. He can call Efreet, and use Wishes. Even if you don't go crazy with "infinite" wishes and only limit yourself to a few, this is still quite potent. He can call lots of other creatures with fantastic powers too, but these are probably the worst.
He also has Animate Dead, and by using it in a Desecrated area, he can animate up to 36 HD of undead which are fully functional inside AMFs, and last forever as long as he protects them from destruction. He can use Planar Binding to call things to kill and reanimate, but this is alot less potent without Awaken Undead, which is non-core.
By using Command Undead, he can command many times this number of HD of undead, though. If he makes a Wand of this, and only uses it while Astrally Projected, he can control essentially unlimited numbers of 20 HD mindless undead indefinitely.
He gets Teleport, and he's had Scrying for two levels already. No explaination necessary.
He gets Magic Jar. Combined with Astral Projection, Scrying, and Teleport, this lets him go out and take over immensely powerful monsters with no risk to himself, as long as he stays away from the ones who are smart enough to hunt him down if he fails to possess them. Once possessed, he can then take them back to his Desecrated lair, kill them, and reanimate them as undead servants.
Combining all of these things, he can travel around in an unkillable Astral body, leaving his real body guarded by legions of undead. He can go anywhere he wants instantly, take several undead servants with him, and can bind powerful outsiders to use their magical abilities when needed.
Given all these things combined, I think he could deal with anything the 20th level fighter could come up with. You don't see this kind of crap in real games because it just isn't very fun. The rest of the party gets bored when one guy has 200 actions proxy actions per round and is invincible.
As you said, people dont do this because it isnt fun, but also more importantly, DMs will rarely allow it. I know Im an optimiser, and a DM, and I dont.
Anyone can kill anyone with enough gold, and cheese as this whole topic has shown. If you know a fight is coming you can simply scy and kill the enemy in its sleep (all clases can do it, or pay someone)...these topics are pointless because everyone just spouts off crap that is obviously too broken to use in actual games. When people propose these in build suggestion threads that is always pointed out...but for some reason in these battle threads they are perfectly fine with everyone.
Not to argue to much, just going to say that without these area rules, of course those things are possible. As the fighter before the fight I could say he killed something huge, and paid someone to animate it, or as someone said earlier pay someone change him into something nasty.
As you said, people dont do this because it isnt fun, but also more importantly, DMs will rarely allow it. I know Im an optimiser, and a DM, and I dont.
Anyone can kill anyone with enough gold, and cheese as this whole topic has shown. If you know a fight is coming you can simply scy and kill the enemy in its sleep (all clases can do it, or pay someone)...these topics are pointless because everyone just spouts off crap that is obviously too broken to use in actual games. When people propose these in build suggestion threads that is always pointed out...but for some reason in these battle threads they are perfectly fine with everyone.
So, if the fighter hires a wizard to do everything for him, he can win? Is that seriously the argument you're making?
Looking at how it works, it seems clear that you can apply the Easy Metamagic deduction at the beginning. So, for example, you heighten silent image (normally a 1st-level spell) to 5th level. Normally, this costs +4 spell levels (since Heighten Spell is a 1:1 ratio). However, with Easy Metamagic the cost is reduced by 1, so it still counts as a 5th-level spell, but now only occupies a 4th-level slot. Because of this, you can add an extra +1 spell level bump, raising it to an effective 6th-level spell occupying a 5th-level slot. Then you add the Earth Spell bump, which pushes it to 7th. It still works in reverse to how Earth Spell works, because you apply Easy Metamagic first and Earth Spell last, but the end result is the same.
I can see where Aelryinth is coming from (this portion of the trick is slightly counter-intuitive; it took me a few minutes to really wrap my brain around the order of operations). However, the ruling that the player always gets to apply metamagic modifiers in the most beneficial order applies here. So, to amend my above post, a ScM with Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell) could indeed emulate spells of a higher level than he can actually cast. Without Easy Metamagic though (which was part of my post above), he's only able to emulate spells of his highest spell level.
Apologies to anyone who may have read JaronK's post and then my post and been confused.
There's no favorable rulings with Planar Binding needed. If you get two free wishes from an Efreeti and then give him, say, 20kgp from the third wish, that's a great deal for him, and he's got no reason to turn it down. As such, endless wishes is easy, and from there you can have tons of magical gear, plus a +5 inhearent bonus to all your stats... that makes things a lot easier.
In my campaign I ruled that afreeti are loathe to use this ability frivolously, since the Grand sultan of the City of Brass (a greater power) employs a squad of epic level efreeti proxies to investigate such behavior and bring offenders back to the City to await trial in his dungeons by whatever means necessary.
Not to argue to much, just going to say that without these area rules, of course those things are possible. As the fighter before the fight I could say he killed something huge, and paid someone to animate it, or as someone said earlier pay someone change him into something nasty.
You can't control it if someone else animates it, unless you also buy a wand of Control Undead and put a bunch of cross-class ranks in UMD, or something. That's part of the wizard's class features, not the fighter's.
As you said, people dont do this because it isnt fun, but also more importantly, DMs will rarely allow it. I know Im an optimiser, and a DM, and I dont.
Thank you for proving my point. Wizards are actually more powerful than everyone gives them credit for. They're so powerful that they aren't ever allowed to reach their full power in real games as PCs, so people think that reaching that real power is somehow "cheating".
Anyone can kill anyone with enough gold, and cheese as this whole topic has shown.
I didn't even use that much gold. I just used the wizard's class features, otherwise known as his spells.
If you know a fight is coming you can simply scy and kill the enemy in its sleep (all clases can do it, or pay someone)...
No, your fighter couldn't even do that. The wizard example I gave leaves his real body in a hidden lair heavily guarded by hordes of undead that never sleep.
these topics are pointless because everyone just spouts off crap
You mean like saying that a fighter who pays someone else to cast wizard spells for him is inherently as powerful as a wizard who can cast them himself?
Let's imagine McFighter is applying for a job. The boss says "Can you do A?"
And McFighter says "No, but I can subcontract Bob to do that."
The boss says "Can you do B?"
McFighter says "No, but Bob can."
"Can you do C?"
"No, but Bob can."
"How much does Bob charge to do all this stuff?"
"Half what I do."
The Boss finally says: "Why don't I just hire Bob, then?"
McFighter says "But I can smash bricks with my head."
Boss says "So can Bob, after he casts Shapechange."
McFighter goes to stand in the unemployment line.
that is obviously too broken to use in actual games. When people propose these in build suggestion threads that is always pointed out...but for some reason in these battle threads they are perfectly fine with everyone.
Because that proves our point, as I stated above. Wizards are in fact so game breakingly powerful that they're never allowed to achieve their full potential in real games, unless they're NPC villains.
In my campaign I ruled that afreeti are loathe to use this ability frivolously, since the Grand sultan of the City of Brass (a greater power) employs a squad of epic level efreeti proxies to investigate such behavior and bring offenders back to the City to await trial in his dungeons by whatever means necessary.
Yeah, that's your house rules. But in things like this on the boards where there is no DM, we play by strict RAW and don't use your specific setting or house rules, so this is irrelevant.
Otherwise, I can beat all Wizards with my Fighter 20, because in my setting all scrolls of all spells are removed and no Wizard gets spells when they level up and there's no other way to get spells. Yay, I win!
JaronK
So far, we have again gotten side-tracked in the conversation.
The currently proposed build is:
Fighter 20
Mounted/Archer focus
Pegusus mount.
Anti-magic Field shackles
Assumed BAB is 20. If we can get a number on his saves, average damage, we should be on our way to have a benchmark to pit a wizard against.
I've always played that if a creature was "summoned", you had to actually bargain with it to get it to use specific abilities on your behalf. IE: 1-minute of un-threatened time to complete a diplomacy check. DM gets to decide what the summoned creature does otherwise.
I've always played that if a creature was "summoned", you had to actually bargain with it to get it to use specific abilities on your behalf. IE: 1-minute of un-threatened time to complete a diplomacy check. DM gets to decide what the summoned creature does otherwise.
That may be how you play it, but:
Summon Monster I
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Arcane Focus: A tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lit) candle.
The spell says the creature acts immediately on your behalf, in the SAME ROUND that it was summoned.
However, if you are talking about Planar Binding on the other hand, you have a case.
JaronK
Sigh.
So far, we have again gotten side-tracked in the conversation.
The currently proposed build is:
Fighter 20
Mounted/Archer focus
Pegusus mount.
Anti-magic Field shackles
Assumed BAB is 20. If we can get a number on his saves, average damage, we should be on our way to have a benchmark to pit a wizard against.
I've always played that if a creature was "summoned", you had to actually bargain with it to get it to use specific abilities on your behalf. IE: 1-minute of un-threatened time to complete a diplomacy check. DM gets to decide what the summoned creature does otherwise.
Necropolitan also. Average damage isnt high, he would be focused on throwing out a bunch of arrows to get past the miss chance/destroy mirror images. MW composite longbow +24/+18/+13/+8 1d8+9 "mighty bow" "weapon focus line". fort +11(undead) Reflex +8 will +6
He could use force/ banishing arrows, I suppose but someone else could think of better crap.
Also for everyone arguing with me. Yes I know wizards pwn fighters, Im not saying they dont, quit acting all gotcha on me. I was only saying that with cheese, and money any class can win. After you guys find a build to beat this straight unop fighter, I'll make an optimized fighter build.
I think at this point level 11 is our Wizard number due to the endless wishes thing. At that point he instantly is getting +2 or 3 to his save DCs (due to the +5 inhearent to Int), +2-3 to AC and Initiative, +22-33 to hitpoints, +2-3 to all saves, and so on, plus an insane amount of magical gear... including Pearls of Power to ensure he can keep shooting all day long. He should be able to spike his caster level and thus be able to outmanuever the Fighter on his Phantom Steed, and greater invisibility should ensure that the Fighter doesn't know where he's attacking from anyway.
JaronK
TC said no infinite wishes remember. Or the fighter could also do it with CoIs and be a wizard with magic items.
Sigh.
So far, we have again gotten side-tracked in the conversation.
The currently proposed build is:
Fighter 20
Mounted/Archer focus
Pegusus mount.
Anti-magic Field shackles
Assumed BAB is 20. If we can get a number on his saves, average damage, we should be on our way to have a benchmark to pit a wizard against.
I've always played that if a creature was "summoned", you had to actually bargain with it to get it to use specific abilities on your behalf. IE: 1-minute of un-threatened time to complete a diplomacy check. DM gets to decide what the summoned creature does otherwise.
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service.
The rules for getting a called creature to do something are specifically laid out in the spell.
Wind wall is a 3rd-level spell. Displacement and mirror image are as well. Assuming an average roll at CL 12, that's 6 images, giving us a ~7.1% chance to hit with displacement active. Furthermore, protection from arrows grants DR 10/magic against ranged attacks. Normally, this wouldn't be useful, but with the fighter sitting in an antimagic field, his bow is a normal masterwork bow. If he decides to enchant all of his arrows, he could do so, but that's spending a decent chunk of change on a not-certain prospect (the miss chance still remains with or without magic arrows).
Further, a Pegasus has a fly speed of 120 ft. (average). Phantom steed has a speed of 240 ft. at 12th-level, using it's air walk ability. With double the speed and superior maneuverability, the wizard can stay out of effective range of the fighter. At this point, how he chooses to kill the fighter is up to him. Having a called creature fight him is one option. Another is to toss shrunken boulders with telekinesis, letting them un-shrink when they hit the antimagic field. Another is to use polymorph to take a form with a high Dex score, and then pull out a crossbow (or a composite longbow for a gray elf) and shoot the fighter, or even better his mount. With various buffs to increase his attack roll. It would be a longer fight, but the wizard could do it given time, and be in no real danger from the fighter during all this.
If the fighter decides to turn off his antimagic field item, the wizard can win easily with spells. If he doesn't, the wizard can make himself nigh-untouchable, then shoot the fighter back. The fighter hurts both his AC and his Attack rolls by sitting in an antimagic field, and still retains no meaningful ability to attack the wizard.
Mounted Combat is one a round, and it's just a skill check. It's not hard at all to shoot it out from under him.
It is amusing though to watch you squirm and continually pull stuff out of your ass to try and counter low end tactics.
Definitely trying for a flame, as the 'lockdown' fighter build is mine, not Khan's. Nice try, however. Khan is truly famous for Pun-Pun.
Once again, you fail.
Once again, you fail.
Lockdown is mine. Just go ask Khan. If you're asking for a trip build, that's something different. Once again, Success! and archr's attempts to flame become ash.
And again archr resorts to multiple accounts to make it seem as if he has support where he has none.
The Pegasus can easily have Horseshoes of Speed on itself to double its speed and keep up easily with the Phantom Steed...which also dies with ridiculous ease to any melee ranged attack. A See Invisible consumable renders the Greater Invis worthless...there's no range limit on See Invis, and it can be purchased and made permanent easily enough, too.
Try again. Simple tactics aren't going to work against a prepared Fighter of high level. It's the opponents using such simple tactics that make a real melee character laugh at them.
Personally, I just like the idea of a sling, fling Dust of Negation at him, and as the spellcaster is wondering how to get out of his own personal Anti-Magic Shell (or is falling out fo the sky after being Touch Hit by a bag of the stuff), stroll up to him and FA him dead in probably one swing.
===Aelryinth
The Pegasus can easily have Horseshoes of Speed on itself to double its speed and keep up easily with the Phantom Steed...which also dies with ridiculous ease to any melee ranged attack.
Not if McFighter is in an AMF, as Agahi has been saying.
A See Invisible consumable renders the Greater Invis worthless...there's no range limit on See Invis, and it can be purchased and made permanent easily enough, too.
You can only make it permanent on yourself. So you better be able to UMD a 6th level scroll.
Lockdown is mine. Just go ask Khan. If you're asking for a trip build, that's something different. Once again, Success! and archr's attempts to flame become ash.
And again archr resorts to multiple accounts to make it seem as if he has support where he has none.
The Pegasus can easily have Horseshoes of Speed on itself to double its speed and keep up easily with the Phantom Steed...which also dies with ridiculous ease to any melee ranged attack. A See Invisible consumable renders the Greater Invis worthless...there's no range limit on See Invis, and it can be purchased and made permanent easily enough, too.
Try again. Simple tactics aren't going to work against a prepared Fighter of high level. It's the opponents using such simple tactics that make a real melee character laugh at them.
Personally, I just like the idea of a sling, fling Dust of Negation at him, and as the spellcaster is wondering how to get out of his own personal Anti-Magic Shell (or is falling out fo the sky after being Touch Hit by a bag of the stuff), stroll up to him and FA him dead in probably one swing.
===Aelryinth
So, you completely ignore the fact that you have a ~7.1% chance to hit in the first place (less with further effects, that's two spells). Or I could just prep a contingency for "If the fighter would hit me, I dimension door over there." Where "over there" is 900+ feet away. It's really kind of irrelevant.
Moreover, the fighter being discussed is inside an antimagic field. No see invisibility for him. I notice you ignored that part too, though.
So, you completely ignore the fact that you have a ~7.1% chance to hit in the first place (less with further effects, that's two spells). Or I could just prep a contingency for "If the fighter would hit me, I dimension door over there." Where "over there" is 900+ feet away. It's really kind of irrelevant.
You can also have your familiar ready an action with a Wand of Dimension Door, if you have UMD ranks. McFighter isn't the only one who can take those, and the wizard gets more use out of them because they let him get extra actions.
Lockdown is mine. Just go ask Khan. If you're asking for a trip build, that's something different. Once again, Success! and archr's attempts to flame become ash.
And again archr resorts to multiple accounts to make it seem as if he has support where he has none.
The Pegasus can easily have Horseshoes of Speed on itself to double its speed and keep up easily with the Phantom Steed...which also dies with ridiculous ease to any melee ranged attack. A See Invisible consumable renders the Greater Invis worthless...there's no range limit on See Invis, and it can be purchased and made permanent easily enough, too.
Try again. Simple tactics aren't going to work against a prepared Fighter of high level. It's the opponents using such simple tactics that make a real melee character laugh at them.
Personally, I just like the idea of a sling, fling Dust of Negation at him, and as the spellcaster is wondering how to get out of his own personal Anti-Magic Shell (or is falling out fo the sky after being Touch Hit by a bag of the stuff), stroll up to him and FA him dead in probably one swing.
===Aelryinth
Khan's Lockdown = The lockdown build Khan made. Guess what I linked to? Khan's lockdown.
Stop posting, dumb$hit.
I find it amusing when people get uptight about countering, when they do the exact same thing in the same thread. Makes me wonder if people even read what they type. So me suggesting AMF is countering, but your wizard will know to prepare all these spells to get around AMF in his limited spell slots (or infinite as some people seem to think). Remember this is not a 20th level wizard with his own pocket plane to planeshift into and scry.
I didn't get upset when you proposed using antimagic field. I said it wouldn't hinder the wizard in any measurable way. Moreover, the bulk of the spells I've talked about are generally useful spells. Displacement, mirror image, phantom steed, greater invisibility and polymorph are all perfectly good spells to keep memorized pretty much all the time. Wind wall (a 3rd level spell, of which a 12th-level Wizard can easily expect to have 5-6 slots for) is a useful BFC spell for dealing with ranged attackers. A lot of ambushes happen via ranged attacks, after all. Carrying a crossbow just makes sense (sometimes you want to "contribute" but the fight isn't worth expending a spell on). The only trick I've proposed so far that is even vaguely niche is the shrunken boulder/telekinesis trick, which is an excellent damage trick in its own right, if the wizard really wants to do damage. Telekinesis itself isn't a bad spell, and any wizard worth his spellbook would've considered encountering a creature that's immune to magic (like, say, most golem). Given that, having shrunken boulders (the spell lasts forever, after all) prepared days ago is easy and sensible. Just gotta take a bit of time every several days to re-apply the spell.
So, no. I haven't been pulling specific niche counters out just to defeat your fighter.
even if the wizard DDs away, he still takes the hit, which is all that is necessary in this situation, the fighter is whittleing him down, not one hit KOing. If the wizard retreats, the fighter still gets XP(or not depending on the level), so he couldnt care less
Readied actions interrupt the action they are readied for (PHB, pg. 160, readying an action). Likewise, contingency acts as a readied spell. I admit I worded it poorly. It should be "If the fighter attacks me, dimension door yadda yadda."
PhaedrusXY also pointed out that a familiar with a readied action to use a wand of dimension door would work as well. I haven't been utilizing the wizard's familiar so far, largely because it's not needed, but that is an easy, action-free (on the wizard's part) escape strategy. The familiar can sit on the wizard's shoulder, and benefit from all the defenses the wizard has, and DD him out of harms way whenever.
Incidentally, the fighter wouldn't get XP from this fight, seeing as we've been talking about a 12th-level wizard. By the CR system (which is horribly broken and wrong as is) the wizard should be a total pushover for the fighter. And yet, somehow, he's not only hard to kill, the fighter has to go to some extreme lengths to even begin to threaten the wizard in any meaningful manner while simultaneously actively worrying about the threats this low-level wizard can bring to the table.
Edit: typo.
Anyway I already agreed to a 12th(actually 11th) level wizard being able to pull it off, no argument there. I keep saying, Im disproving the level 6 things. You keep getting all huffy because someone dare say that any class can beat any class with gold, cheese, or prior notice.
And yes you have been countering my things, just as bad as I am, You are just doing it with spells, not gold/feats. Another thing I find funny is the argument that if a fighter uses his gold on magic items he isnt being a fighter, but if a wizard does it, thats perfectly reasonable (for example healing, a traditionaly cleric magic, or a bow weapon, which is a fighterish thing).
Once again, all I am advocating here is the point that ANY class can beat ANY other class in a given situation...the wizards situation is prior notice.
i actually had an argument with my DM about this, too, surprisingly.
It's pretty amazing the number of people that put fighters on a pedestal and think they are something more than a meat shield....
i can't believe you guys are still having this discussion
i actually had an argument with my DM about this, too, surprisingly.
It's pretty amazing the number of people that put fighters on a pedestal and think they are something more than a meat shield....
Meat shield implies they can actually be in the right 5' square at the right time and enemies want to attack them. Stop giving them too much credit.
Also Mal, don't bother entertaining Ael. This is his standard operating procedure. Just like everyone else taking the opposing side, he demonstrates a willingness and eagerness to deny reality because it does not favor him.
Meat shield implies they can actually be in the right 5' square at the right time and enemies want to attack them. Stop giving them too much credit.
Also Mal, don't bother entertaining Ael. This is his standard operating procedure. Just like everyone else taking the opposing side, he demonstrates a willingness and eagerness to deny reality because it does not favor him.
Right well, my DM revealed his ignorance last session...he actually tried to tell me that Core is balanced, not just balanced, but PERFECTLY balanced.
I just about fell out of my chair....
Right well, my DM revealed his ignorance last session...he actually tried to tell me that Core is balanced, not just balanced, but PERFECTLY balanced.
I just about fell out of my chair....
So what's the punchline?
So you would waste a contingency for if the fighter attacks me I DD away?...that would be round one. (also I said that he wouldnt get xp depending on how low the wiz is, you just didnt quote that part.)
No, but I'd certainly waste a contingency on "If my opponent attacks me, dimension door to safety.", or a familiar with a readied action and a wand of dimension door. Both are general get-away-from-the-enemy tricks. If I wasn't playing a straight Core Wiz20, I'd be a Conjurer and have Abrupt Jaunt and not need them.
My point about the XP was to point out that the fighter has yet to get anywhere in actually being dangerous to the wizard, despite the fact that the wizard is a fight which by the CR rules shouldn't even require effort.
Anyway I already agreed to a 12th(actually 11th) level wizard being able to pull it off, no argument there. I keep saying, Im disproving the level 6 things. You keep getting all huffy because someone dare say that any class can beat any class with gold, cheese, or prior notice.
I'm getting exasperated having to explain the same thing over and over again to people. If that's being huffy, so be it.
I've yet to spend my WBL on anything except caster gear or utilizing my class features (paying a creature that I've called via planar binding, for example). You've had to spend gold to either A) emulate the wizard's class features (teleporting tricks, antimagic field, etc) or to hire other people to do things for you. Seems like it's your class features that are coming up short there.
And yes you have been countering my things, just as bad as I am, You are just doing it with spells, not gold/feats. Another thing I find funny is the argument that if a fighter uses his gold on magic items he isnt being a fighter, but if a wizard does it, thats perfectly reasonable (for example healing, a traditionaly cleric magic, or a bow weapon, which is a fighterish thing).
So ... you totally glossed over the fact that all but one of the spells I've so far proposed as defenses are just good spells that I would prepare for general encounters. The only even vaguely counter-trick I've proposed is the telekinesis/shrink item trick, which has applications outside of this one fight, as I've demonstrated. So far, you've gone to the length of buying an antimagic field item solely to try to threaten the wizard in this arena fight. AMFs are horrible for adventuring.
Yes, I'm using a crossbow. Guess what, I'm proficient with it. Hell,i t's not even magical. It's a masterwork crossbow. That's ... what, ~600 gp? I proposed a composite longbow for an elf wizard because, again, they are proficient with it. So far, I've spent ... wait for it ... ~600gp of my WBL to have something to do when I don't want to cast spells. Yes, I'm totally dumping cash left and right to counter your fighter. You caught me.
And yes, you can totally buy magic items, but if the only reason you're using them is to mimic the wizard's class features, doesn't that tell you something? For the fighter to be balanced, his class features should give him sufficient edge against the wizard that he should be a threat. But the fighter's only class features are feats, and that's a horrible system. That's why they made ToB. A Martial Adept can actually be dangerous to high-level spellcasters, what with class features that allow them to teleport, stun-lock, and boost their saves/disable harmful effects on themselves. ToB's title shouldn't have been "The Book of Nine Swords". It should've been "The Fighter, Paladin, and Monk - we swear we got it right this time guys!".
Once again, all I am advocating here is the point that ANY class can beat ANY other class in a given situation...the wizards situation is prior notice.
No, it isn't. The wizard's situation is "I have spells. These spells, if I'm not a complete moron, do useful things like paralyze my enemy or turn me into a monstrous killing machine." Any wizard worth his spellbook will at the minimum be able to escape a situation if needed.
Right well, my DM revealed his ignorance last session...he actually tried to tell me that Core is balanced, not just balanced, but PERFECTLY balanced.
I just about fell out of my chair....
Actually, it is balanced, but only if you don't know the game. You see, the playtesters thought it was balanced for that very reason.
The first instinct of someone who comes into the game and knows some RPGs but doesn't know D&D is to play a certain way, which is the way the playtesters played. What they did was this:
Wizards and Sorcerers were for blasting. Just shoot the enemy with fireballs and such until they die.
Clerics were for healing. All your spells should be heals, including in combat.
Druids don't Wild Shape (that's weak, you lose all your gear!) so they just melee with scimitars, and occasionally throw out a blast spell.
Martial classes just pick up the biggest weapon they can and hit people with it, except Rogues who use Crossbows and Daggers and hope they can flank or sneak attack sometimes.
Bards are confusing.
If you play this way, you'll quickly find that core is indeed balanced, just as the playtesters did. It's only if you use some creativity or understand the system better (AoE save or sucks like Glitterdust beat fireball, etc) that it becomes unbalanced.
So what your DM actually told you was that he's not experienced with the game and is not very creative as a player.
JaronK
So what your DM actually told you was that he's not experienced with the game and is not very creative as a player.
JaronK
heh, well he seems to be the type of guy that thinks the Human Fighter is the ultimate hero of all time.
So what your DM actually told you was that he's not experienced with the game and is not very creative as a player.
heh, well he seems to be the type of guy that thinks the Human Fighter is the ultimate hero of all time.
So he's dumb and a racist?
JaronK
Clearly ignorant racism. Everyone knows Gnomes are the greatest. Except Kobolds. Kobolds don't know it, but they're only second place.
JaronK
Sorry, but the only thing Gnomes have going for them is Shadowcraft Mages. It's a nice thing granted, but other than that they're made of Fail.
1) Gnomes are sexier than all other races.
2) Whispergnomes. Have you seen the picture of one in Races of Stone? Awesome.
3) Gnomes are cute, and thus will not be noticed as a threat until they summon the appocalypse from under your feet.
4) I May be Tiny, but You're Dead is a gnome build too, so that's two awesome builds that are gnome only.
So there, my irrefutable logic dictates that gnomes are the best.
JaronK
You're missing many important points.
1) Gnomes are sexier than all other races.
2) Whispergnomes. Have you seen the picture of one in Races of Stone? Awesome.
3) Gnomes are cute, and thus will not be noticed as a threat until they summon the appocalypse from under your feet.
4) I May be Tiny, but You're Dead is a gnome build too, so that's two awesome builds that are gnome only.
So there, my irrefutable logic dictates that gnomes are the best.
JaronK
1: Midget fetish less.
2: Lol, whisper gnomes.
3: It's called boobs.
4: That a melee build? Eh, charge that
.They do make great projectiles though.
Simple answer, you can't go lower than level 18, or the fighter can have a cohort with exact same build.
And this proves what about the fighter again? Oh, right. Read the thread before you post.