To set it up, i'll soon be playing in a 3.5, 12th lvl, evil campaign. Most books allowed, i just need to it run past the DM, but no psi, and no undead or dragons as race. Our party is currently looking to be a rogue/assassin, a necromancer, a minotaur meat-shield and maybe an evil cleric, besides myself. Everyone is trying to play something outside their usual type. I usually play a sometimes sneaky archer/melee type, I've never used spells (weird, i know). Personally, i want to stay a little within my comfort zone of archery, help our party healing and cast spells to stretch myself and work with another player's rp idea, and i also like to have all good saves.
Here's what I've built so far (levels not necessarily in order), please help with ideas, feats, spells, items and advice.
Race: Elf or Gray Elf
1. Fighter - Feat: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Bonus Feat: Point Blank Shot
2. Fighter - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
3. Wizard - Feat: Insightful Reflexes, Bonus Feat: Scribe Scroll
4. Wizard - Ability: INT
5. Wizard
6. Arcane Archer - Feat: Zen Archery
7. Arcane Archer
8 Spellsword -Ability: WIS
9. Cleric - Feat: Dodge?
10. Cleric
11. Cleric
12. Mystic Theurge - Feat: Iron Will? Ability: INT
then
13. Mystic Theurge
14. Dragonslayer
15.+ Eldritch Knight?
thanks again!
What you'll want is something like this:
Illumian Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ Mystic Theurge 5
Use your racial ability to base your spells on str or dex. Use DMM:Persist for full bab.
1. Forget going with multiple spellcasting classes, and don't make spellcasting a secondary role. Pick a spellcasting class (Archivist is a divine caster with a Wizardy feel) and try to get the highest level spells possible with it at every character level while gaining whatever secondary role(s) you'd also like to have. A character focused on one thing is much better than a character who tries to do too much.
2. Don't use Arcane Archer, every character who has ever used it would have been better off with more spellcasting instead.
3. Don't worry so much about increasing your saving throws. You should be able to cast Superior Resistance (SC) every day for a +6 bonus on all three, which you probably won't even need. Insightful Reflexes is a wasted feat every round that you don't get hit with a Reflex save effect, and even if you didn't have that feat and failed the save, your opponent just wasted its action on using a reflex save effect. In your entire adventuring career, you'll probably never lose a character because of a failed Reflex save. If you do, it wasn't your fault for having a low save, it was someone else's fault for not doing their job of either finding the trap, casting a protection spell or counterspelling, or healing you.
4. If you want to play a spellcaster, read a guide on what spellcasters are supposed to do. Make an Archivist, it gets access to enough spells to be a Batman, go into Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead and be able to use Divine Metamagic, take the feat Spontaneous Healer if you think the party needs it. Go with an Elf race to be proficient in bows so you'll have something to do when the situation wouldn't be worth using a spell on.
If you are used to "sneaky sob" type characters, but want to try casting, here is a fun idea that I gave someone else on the forums (warlock/cleric/eldritch disciple):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17044116&postcount=3
The second option is full-on limburger in all its smelly glory... perfect for an evil group. The first allows you seriously disgusting amounts of controlled undead while the second allows for ridiculous saves.
It isn't -exactly- archery, but ranged touch attacks for 5d6 at a time while invisible and flying, at will, is close enough, right?
Edit: Just realized... you are playing with another cleric in the party? Might not want the second option, since Ur-Priests tend to rub regular priests the wrong way... Something about "stealing spells from the divine" or such nonsense... Unless your DM doesn't enforce roleplaying effects. ^_^
If you're looking to play a Gish, you should play a Gish, which is entirely different from playing either a BSF or a Caster. You're looking to be something most like a Glass Cannon in actual play, with some utility/boost casting and maybe a couple of BC spells.
Consider the following build:
Elf Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Diviner 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8
That character, has a BAB of 18, a base CL of 17 (9th level spells), 4 Fighter bonus feats (switch the Wizard bonus feat for fighter, per UA), and fairly strong saves (12/6/12; 12/8/12 with a weasel familiar). It also has a number of special abilities that make Gishing work well, and only really needs Int and Dex (and Con, but that's normal) to work. Take Arcane Strike at 9th, and you'll be dealing very solid damage with a bow. If you need access to specific divine spells for some reason, you can always take Arcane Disciple for the appropriate domain. Drop either Enchant or Evocation.
My feat list for the above as an archer would look like:
Point Blank Shot (1), Weapon Focus-*bow (Elf Paragon), Combat Casting (3), Precise Shot (Fighter), Improved Initiative (Wizard), Rapid Shot (6), Arcane Strike (9), Improved Toughness (12), Improved Precise Shot (Eldritch Knight), Minor Shapeshift (15), Smiting Spell (18)
If you need divine, just trade out Smiting Spell for Arcane Disciple.
Get yourself a +1 Magebane, Psychokinetic, Knockback bow and cast greater magic weapon on it, and you should be set at 12.
Was amused by the idea of an Evil elf... then remembered "duh, drow".
The best way to play a Bard-gish sort of character is either to go straight Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10, or to mix it up, but just a little bit, in going with something like Fighter 2/Bard 7/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 6/Abjurant Champion 4. You can pick up some interesting feats that synergize with your Bardic Music to make you more viable in combat. You'll get decent bardic music effects (Song of Timelessness is cool), caster level 18, 9th level spellcasting from wizard/sorcerer/bard lists, +15 BAB.
Now, an Adept-gish type isn't really all that hard to work with. If you could get into the Prestige Ranger that could be nice, but for some strange reason Adepts have Animal Trance, but not Calm Animals... other than that there are a couple options for you. Ranger 4/Adept 6/Hospitaler 10 will get you 13th level spellcasting and 17 BAB. Ranger 2/Adept 8/Hospitaler will bring you to 15th level spellcasting and 16 BAB (probably the better option).
I thought of another way to do this, but I'm not sure how good an idea it is. Duskblade 7/Divine Crusader 3/Mystic Theurge 10 will get you 15 BAB, 17th level Duskblade casting, 9th level divine spells (but drawn only from a single domain), and well, that's about it. Doesn't really seem worth it to me, but Arcane Channeling might make it worth it for you, especially if you can convince the DM to give you Arcane Channeling (full attack).
I think there's probably a better way to work with an Adept, I just haven't thought of it. But there you go, for what it's worth. Bard seems to be the best way to go for you. I suggest you look into it.
Stubbed out Spell list with nothing available from any book other than the PH, capped at 5th level, with only 3/lvl to cast, most of which suck for a gish?
Why not just throw your arrows instead of shoot them?
Don't use adept.
And, you'll notice, I suggested Bard over Adept. I just get tired of people that just want to play a decent character, someone that can cast and fight, and everyone just saying - "Play Cleric 20." Yes, we get it, DMM Persist: Divine Power = I win (well, that combined with all of the rest of Cleric spellcasting). Some people don't want to do that. You don't need 9th level spells to contribute to a game.
The OP came to the Character Optimization boards, not the 'Easy to make Character' boards. I am assuming that they'd prefer something at least somewhat optimized.
The Adept Class/Spell list doesn't offer anything that's going to help him be an archer, I.E. the character he wants to play.
It's the worst BAB in the game. It's the worst Spell progression in the Game. It doesn't have many of the spells that are going to make a gish a gish or an archer an archer. It doesn't have enough spells per spell level to even blow on arcane strike. It doesn't provide bonus feats. It doesn't have good saves. It isn't, in any way, optimal to a gish or the character he wants to play.
While a Gish doesn't need 9th level spells, and I've made plenty that don't, if you have the option of having them and don't take them, you should be getting something commiserate to their power/versatility in return. Other than Heal (which neither of your builds gives), I can't see anything even coming close from Adept.
The OP came to the Character Optimization boards, not the 'Easy to make Character' boards. I am assuming that they'd prefer something at least somewhat optimized.
While this is fair enough, I was merely trying to offer the, "not optimized, but still playable" option. Okay, okay I get it, Adept isn't going to cut it. It was really a thought experiment more than anything; I probably should have cut it out. What it does offer is a mix of wizard and cleric spells which would be easier to work with than trying to go Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Theurge. But as I pointed out, the Bard also does that, and it works better.
While a Gish doesn't need 9th level spells, and I've made plenty that don't, if you have the option of having them and don't take them, you should be getting something commiserate to their power/versatility in return. Other than Heal (which neither of your builds gives), I can't see anything even coming close from Adept.
Now, this I disagree with. A Gish doesn't need 9th level spells, nor does a Gish need anything to compensate for their power. That kind of power just isn't needed in the game really. I don't say that to mean, "Get them damned overpowered Wizards outta my game!" but to say that a Wizard would do just fine with more spells per day and only 6th or 7th level spells - a Gish perhaps especially.
@EricaG: It would be nice if Duskblades could channel through ranged attacks, because then you could just play a Duskblade and take the Arcane Disciple feat once or twice. You could always talk to the DM about this option.
Now, this I disagree with. A Gish doesn't need 9th level spells, nor does a Gish need anything to compensate for their power. That kind of power just isn't needed in the game really. I don't say that to mean, "Get them damned overpowered Wizards outta my game!" but to say that a Wizard would do just fine with more spells per day and only 6th or 7th level spells - a Gish perhaps especially.
You disagree with me by saying the same thing as me? :p If you're giving up 9th level spells, get something to compensate. More slots for Arcane Strike is a solid compensation for an archer-gish in most games.
Modification of my above build:
Elf Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Focused Specialist Diviner 2/Spellsword 3/Nightmare Spinner 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 5
Works just like the above but with 1 extra Feat, one less BAB, and a CL of 15 (8th level spells). In exchange you get a base of 7 spells per spell level up to 5th, 6 6ths, 5 7ths, 4 8ths (unfortunately, no Mindblank without a hefty int (26+), which sucks), and you're immune to fear (offsets loss of Mindblank a little).
Ranger2/Fighter2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Chameleon10/Wiz(any)1/Div.Oracle1/Unseen Seer3
Everything you want, except high level spells. Qualify for Div. Oracle and US with Wizard,but let it apply to Chameleon. Use DMM/Persist on the Chameleon divine spells.
edit: i don't know if he'll allow much from ua, but he did ok paragon.
Only, you're going to want to jump in early on some to stay with the power curve because if you enter them like you're supposed to, you'll fail.
The key is going to be Ur-Priest (Complete Divine).
The question is whether or not to go mostly Wizard in the first few levels or go Duskblade. If you stick with 6+ being Ur-Priest or things that advance divine casting (or better, dual casting) then at 12th you should be as good a divine caster as a straight cleric and not bad at Wizard. You can work in some buffs to fire up Divine Power when necessary.
Something like Wizard 2 / Something 1 (swash?) / Wizard +2 / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 5 (and more after that) is a solid enough build. It would cast 7th level divine spells at 12th (which is, if you're paying attention, better than the 12th level cleric) and 5th level Wizard spells (as a 9th level wizard) which is maybe a level behind the traditional gish type.
It's also very general, allowing you to pick and choose about any spells and such you wanted since it basically gets the complete cleric and wizard spell lists.
I believe Wizard 3/Fighter 1 will qualify you for Ur-Priest, then Ur-Priest 2 qualifies you for MT, then MT 8/Incantatrix 4/Archmage 2 get's you 'free' Persistent spells if you want (without DMM). Then you just use DP for your BAB and you're all set.
But that's all mighty complex.
Really, Pick one thing that's most important to you and play that. Multi-casters CAN work, but it's hard, and you have to KNOW what you're doing, and they don't really come into their own until late in the power curve (and even then power is relative to what you as a player are capable of managing).
If you want to play an Archer...build an archer.
If you want to play an Archer Gish, use my build above or something similar.
If you want to play an Versitile spellcaster, use one of the bard or chameleon or factotum builds above or in other threads.
Sorcerer gets bluff and the CHA could help if you wanted DMM Persist (or Dread Necro ... etc.)
I'll echo pithica and say that if you want to do all three you're going to be looking at a complex build that is probably actually too complex to enjoy playing
Geh. The problem with multi-caster builds for me is that I never have enough actions to CAST all my spells using a single-focused build. After buffing, I have enough left-over spells that I can't spend them all fast enough... most encounters are over by round 5 or 6. :/
Yep, likely too complex to enjoy playing for most players.
*shudders*
What you'll want is something like this:
Illumian Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ Mystic Theurge 5
Use your racial ability to base your spells on str or dex. Use DMM:Persist for full bab.
Ahem.
Use earth spell to get early entry. Retrain if allowed.