Fire Hobgoblin: Worth it at all? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fire Hobgoblin: Worth it at all?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rabidpirateman
Mar 19, 2008 18:23:42 When I first saw these guys, I thought I had finally found a reason to play a goblin (and I really want to find one). However, I'm skeptical now.

For one LA, you get:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
Low-Light Vision
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the water subtype
-2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the water or cold subtype
Resistance to fire 5

As opposed to another one LA race, the Tiefling:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
Darkvision out to 60 feet
+2 to Bluff and Hide
Darkness
Resistance to cold, electricity and fire 5

Instead of +2 Con, Tieflings get improved sight, +2 to two skills, darkness and resistance to two more energy subtypes. They also don't have that weakness against cold spells.

So are Fire Hobgoblins just not worth it?
#2
aftercrescent
Mar 19, 2008 18:24:52 Depends on your build and whether or not LA buyoff is allowed.
#3
sinfire_titan
Mar 19, 2008 18:29:03 Honestly, Hobgoblins shouldn't have that LA. They are balanced as is. If Half-Orcs get two stat penalties for a +2 Str, and Full Orcs get 3 penalties for a +4 Str, why does a race that has two +2's get a +1 LA? Do they really think that is balanced? At least they are finally fixing that in 4E.
#4
wih
Mar 19, 2008 18:37:18 Considering that Tieflings are also Outsiders rather than Humanoids, Tieflings a clear winner. Hobgoblins (including the Fire variety) are a very weak LA+1 or a mildly strong LA+0, around the same territory as Whisper Gnomes. If you're playing with LA buy-off, I'd be willing to tolerate them as LA+1, if you aren't I'l add something extra to them to make them fully worth the +1.
#5
davethemagicweasel
Mar 19, 2008 19:19:29 sans outsider related Alter Self/Polymorph cheese even the tiefling isn't worth +1 LA, charging you it for the Hobgoblin is just an insult.
#6
rabidpirateman
Mar 19, 2008 19:47:29
Depends on your build and whether or not LA buyoff is allowed.

I don't see how this'd change anything between the two: if LA buyout is allowed, then both would be the same before and after buyout.
#7
Nathreet
Mar 19, 2008 19:54:26 A good choice for a goblin might be the goblin. That one's not too bad. Makes a good rogue or other sneaky class with his hide and MS. And he gets a 30' move speed to boot. That's what really clinches it. Plus no nasty con penalty to counter the dex bonus. It's like a halfling but faster and sneakier.
#8
aftercrescent
Mar 19, 2008 22:03:08 Well yes, if you are only comparing a tiefling and a fire hobgob, the tiefling is better. No matter the class, as an outsider it is automatically proficient with all martial weapons. Makes a good entry into some nice caster prestige classes.

I was referring to the topic question. If LA buyoff is allowed, yes, I would say a fire hobgoblin is worth it, to some extent. It's situational, because +2 Con can mean a lot for a DFA, but then again, there are a lot of other better races with a con boost. A lot of things are situational.
#9
sinfire_titan
Mar 20, 2008 0:14:53 Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I do like Dragonborn Hobgoblins over Dragonborn Tieflings.
#10
aftercrescent
Mar 20, 2008 2:26:02 Ohh... Dragonborn Hobgoblins... +1

Good call, ST.
#11
rabidpirateman
Mar 20, 2008 12:28:41 You wouldn't happen to have the dragonborn template on you, do you? I'm away from my books till next week.
#12
r4za
Mar 20, 2008 12:44:11 +2 con, -2 dex and lose racial features that aren't stat adjustments, IIRC. I probably don't, but that's a rough approximation.
#13
aftercrescent
Mar 20, 2008 13:04:00 You also get one cool ability chosen from a bunch. Breathweapon for DFAs FTW.
#14
sinfire_titan
Mar 20, 2008 17:44:08
You also get one cool ability chosen from a bunch. Breathweapon for DFAs FTW.

Or get your Darkvision back. With a bit extra. And you could get wings.

Honestly, Dragonborn Hobgoblins win out over Dragonborn Tieflings, as Tieflings lose their energy resistances and Darkness SLA, whereas Hobgoblins lose only their bonus to Dex (in exchange for a +4 Con bonus total) and their +4 bonus to Move Silently. The Sunscorch Hobgoblin presented in Dragon Magic also lose their heat resistance, but get a +2 bonus to Wis at the cost of 2 points of Dex, while still keeping their +4 Con. And they all ready have the Dragonblood subtype.

Oh, and Dragonborn lose the following:

Bonus feats
Skill Bonuses
Attack Bonuses
Save Bonuses
SLAs
Natural Armor
DR
SR

They keep:

Type
Subtype
Race
Racial HD
Ability Modifiers
Size (Including Powerful Build)
Base Speeds (and alternate Movement Types)
Langueages
Favored Class (and gain Fighter as an added bonus)
LA

Oddly enough, Asherati (Sandstorm) are great for Dragonborn Mole builds. You keep the Sand Swimmer ability, as that is an alternate form of movement. You may have to petition to keep the glowing part, otherwise you won't be able to see worth a damn. But an Asherati Dragonborn DFA with Flyby or Spring Attack can easily be a huge threat. Just a little FYI.
#15
rabidpirateman
Mar 20, 2008 18:14:45 So would a fire hobgoblin lose the benefits of being a creature of fire? Namely that weakness to cold and water attacks?

Hmm, +4 con, +2 int, -2 cha for 1 LA. Not bad, probably go well with monks, swashbucklers, rogues, maybe even casters if buyout is allowed.
#16
Dictum_Mortuum
Mar 20, 2008 19:11:33 dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea
#17
rabidpirateman
Mar 20, 2008 19:17:14
dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea

Why?
#18
surreal
Mar 20, 2008 19:24:14
dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea

Not if the creature you're using doesn't have any racial features, in which case you're gain more than you lose.
#19
bayar
Mar 25, 2008 7:59:18 yeah, but what do you do if LA buyout is not an option and you have to work out something, like not take a class level at level 2 so you can have acces to your CON bonus as a racial feature. Then what ?

Oh, and dragonborn doesnt erase your LA. That is the main disadvantage.
#20
jetstrike3000
Mar 25, 2008 11:03:02 Try These +0 LA

Beguiler: Actually a race from the Forgotten Realms - Shining South supplement, this offers a RIDICULOUS TON of awesome abilities, including +6 Dex, +2 Int, small size, a climb speed, a +8 to Hide (on top of the +4 size bonus!), two claws/bite/rake/tail attack, true seeing AT WILL, darkvision, and lowlight vision. They also look like Pikachu.

Air Goblin: From Unearthed Arcana, these guys are goblins the way they should have been. Aside from a few air-related traits, the big deal is a +4 Dex instead of +2. The rest is sort of standard goblin.

Jermlaine: MMII, I think (or III?). These guys are TINY fey with +6 Wis and +6 Dex. The downside is that you're tiny (finessable reach weapons like Spiked Chains or the Rope Dart from Dragon Mag are a must for melee), ugly as sin, and STOOPID (-4 Int, I think).

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: These guys kick butt, as everyone knows, with a +3 to mental stats, +2 Dex, and only minor penalties. If you're using the improved web-version of the kobold, they only get better (I especially like the size and claws bits of the upgrade, which you can find here).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rabidpirateman Mar 19, 2008 18:23:42	When I first saw these guys, I thought I had finally found a reason to play a goblin (and I really want to find one). However, I'm skeptical now. For one LA, you get: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma Low-Light Vision +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the water subtype -2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the water or cold subtype Resistance to fire 5 As opposed to another one LA race, the Tiefling: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma Darkvision out to 60 feet +2 to Bluff and Hide Darkness Resistance to cold, electricity and fire 5 Instead of +2 Con, Tieflings get improved sight, +2 to two skills, darkness and resistance to two more energy subtypes. They also don't have that weakness against cold spells. So are Fire Hobgoblins just not worth it?
#2 aftercrescent Mar 19, 2008 18:24:52	Depends on your build and whether or not LA buyoff is allowed.
#3 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 18:29:03	Honestly, Hobgoblins shouldn't have that LA. They are balanced as is. If Half-Orcs get two stat penalties for a +2 Str, and Full Orcs get 3 penalties for a +4 Str, why does a race that has two +2's get a +1 LA? Do they really think that is balanced? At least they are finally fixing that in 4E.
#4 wih Mar 19, 2008 18:37:18	Considering that Tieflings are also Outsiders rather than Humanoids, Tieflings a clear winner. Hobgoblins (including the Fire variety) are a very weak LA+1 or a mildly strong LA+0, around the same territory as Whisper Gnomes. If you're playing with LA buy-off, I'd be willing to tolerate them as LA+1, if you aren't I'l add something extra to them to make them fully worth the +1.
#5 davethemagicweasel Mar 19, 2008 19:19:29	sans outsider related Alter Self/Polymorph cheese even the tiefling isn't worth +1 LA, charging you it for the Hobgoblin is just an insult.
#6 rabidpirateman Mar 19, 2008 19:47:29	Depends on your build and whether or not LA buyoff is allowed. I don't see how this'd change anything between the two: if LA buyout is allowed, then both would be the same before and after buyout.
#7 Nathreet Mar 19, 2008 19:54:26	A good choice for a goblin might be the goblin. That one's not too bad. Makes a good rogue or other sneaky class with his hide and MS. And he gets a 30' move speed to boot. That's what really clinches it. Plus no nasty con penalty to counter the dex bonus. It's like a halfling but faster and sneakier.
#8 aftercrescent Mar 19, 2008 22:03:08	Well yes, if you are only comparing a tiefling and a fire hobgob, the tiefling is better. No matter the class, as an outsider it is automatically proficient with all martial weapons. Makes a good entry into some nice caster prestige classes. I was referring to the topic question. If LA buyoff is allowed, yes, I would say a fire hobgoblin is worth it, to some extent. It's situational, because +2 Con can mean a lot for a DFA, but then again, there are a lot of other better races with a con boost. A lot of things are situational.
#9 sinfire_titan Mar 20, 2008 0:14:53	Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I do like Dragonborn Hobgoblins over Dragonborn Tieflings.
#10 aftercrescent Mar 20, 2008 2:26:02	Ohh... Dragonborn Hobgoblins... +1 Good call, ST.
#11 rabidpirateman Mar 20, 2008 12:28:41	You wouldn't happen to have the dragonborn template on you, do you? I'm away from my books till next week.
#12 r4za Mar 20, 2008 12:44:11	+2 con, -2 dex and lose racial features that aren't stat adjustments, IIRC. I probably don't, but that's a rough approximation.
#13 aftercrescent Mar 20, 2008 13:04:00	You also get one cool ability chosen from a bunch. Breathweapon for DFAs FTW.
#14 sinfire_titan Mar 20, 2008 17:44:08	You also get one cool ability chosen from a bunch. Breathweapon for DFAs FTW. Or get your Darkvision back. With a bit extra. And you could get wings. Honestly, Dragonborn Hobgoblins win out over Dragonborn Tieflings, as Tieflings lose their energy resistances and Darkness SLA, whereas Hobgoblins lose only their bonus to Dex (in exchange for a +4 Con bonus total) and their +4 bonus to Move Silently. The Sunscorch Hobgoblin presented in Dragon Magic also lose their heat resistance, but get a +2 bonus to Wis at the cost of 2 points of Dex, while still keeping their +4 Con. And they all ready have the Dragonblood subtype. Oh, and Dragonborn lose the following: Bonus feats Skill Bonuses Attack Bonuses Save Bonuses SLAs Natural Armor DR SR They keep: Type Subtype Race Racial HD Ability Modifiers Size (Including Powerful Build) Base Speeds (and alternate Movement Types) Langueages Favored Class (and gain Fighter as an added bonus) LA Oddly enough, Asherati (Sandstorm) are great for Dragonborn Mole builds. You keep the Sand Swimmer ability, as that is an alternate form of movement. You may have to petition to keep the glowing part, otherwise you won't be able to see worth a damn. But an Asherati Dragonborn DFA with Flyby or Spring Attack can easily be a huge threat. Just a little FYI.
#15 rabidpirateman Mar 20, 2008 18:14:45	So would a fire hobgoblin lose the benefits of being a creature of fire? Namely that weakness to cold and water attacks? Hmm, +4 con, +2 int, -2 cha for 1 LA. Not bad, probably go well with monks, swashbucklers, rogues, maybe even casters if buyout is allowed.
#16 Dictum_Mortuum Mar 20, 2008 19:11:33	dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea
#17 rabidpirateman Mar 20, 2008 19:17:14	dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea Why?
#18 surreal Mar 20, 2008 19:24:14	dragonborn + level adjustment == bad idea Not if the creature you're using doesn't have any racial features, in which case you're gain more than you lose.
#19 bayar Mar 25, 2008 7:59:18	yeah, but what do you do if LA buyout is not an option and you have to work out something, like not take a class level at level 2 so you can have acces to your CON bonus as a racial feature. Then what ? Oh, and dragonborn doesnt erase your LA. That is the main disadvantage.
#20 jetstrike3000 Mar 25, 2008 11:03:02	Try These +0 LA Beguiler: Actually a race from the Forgotten Realms - Shining South supplement, this offers a RIDICULOUS TON of awesome abilities, including +6 Dex, +2 Int, small size, a climb speed, a +8 to Hide (on top of the +4 size bonus!), two claws/bite/rake/tail attack, true seeing AT WILL, darkvision, and lowlight vision. They also look like Pikachu. Air Goblin: From Unearthed Arcana, these guys are goblins the way they should have been. Aside from a few air-related traits, the big deal is a +4 Dex instead of +2. The rest is sort of standard goblin. Jermlaine: MMII, I think (or III?). These guys are TINY fey with +6 Wis and +6 Dex. The downside is that you're tiny (finessable reach weapons like Spiked Chains or the Rope Dart from Dragon Mag are a must for melee), ugly as sin, and STOOPID (-4 Int, I think). Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: These guys kick butt, as everyone knows, with a +3 to mental stats, +2 Dex, and only minor penalties. If you're using the improved web-version of the kobold, they only get better (I especially like the size and claws bits of the upgrade, which you can find here).