"If your Unarmed attack already deals this much damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table."
Oh, really?
I investigated more. +Con to your AC is very nice, especially at first level. Again, though, something niggled at me. I had read this before, somewhere else. It turns out that Deepwarden does the same thing at second level. And, unlike the note you see in the Ninja class AC boost, there is no caveat anywhere in either of the two ability descriptions (Either FotF or Deepwarden) that says that the two class features do not stack.
Right. That led me to this. I'll post the 10th level version because it's the most complete version, but you can do the basic version of this as soon as 8th level (by cutting the last 2 levels of FotF).
Ranger 4/ Monk 1/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Deepwarden 2 (With Ascetic Hunter in there somewhere)
Here's a fun build, using 28 point buy (just to shoot the midrange) and gold by level from the DMG (49,000 gp):
Tankatronic
Dwarf (Levels as presented above)
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 26 (18 +2 racial, +2 for levels, +4 Amulet of Health)
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha:6 (8 -2 Racial)
BAB +9
Grapple: +15
Saves:+22/+9/+15
AC: 34 (10 + 1 (Wis) +16 (Con x2) +1 (Ring of Protection) +1 (Amulet of Natural Armor) +1 (AC Bonus from Monk's Belt) + 4 (Bracers of Armor))
HP:5d8+3d10+2d12, or 127 avg
Unarmed Attack damage: 2d8+2 (5th level Monk (Ascetic Hunter)+ Monk's Belt + 2 rank increases from FotF), +4 when in a Feral Trance
Feats: Endurance, IUS, Power Attack, Great Fortitude, Track, Improved Grapple, Steadfast Determination, Ascetic Tracker
Misc: One favored enemy, Fast Movement, Feral Trance 2/day, Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike, one basic animal companion (Hooooorse), and a partridge in a pear tree.
Since he's got a higher AC than many level 20 characters and more HP than God, this bad boy's something of a tank (duh!). However, he's more than physically capable enough to hold his own offensively: against fighter types, he's got 2 attacks (if he chooses not to flurry) at +12/+7, or 3 at +10/+5/+0. Against lower strength types, he runs in, Trances, and grapples his victims to death, going for 2d8+1d6+4 per turn when he pins his opponent. And, of course, he should only ever fail a Fort save on a 1, regardless of the roll, and his other saves are quite decent too.
A thought for continuing this bad boy would be to sent him into 10 levels of Tattooed Monk; picking up the Tiger, Crab, Wasp, Phoenix, and Dragonfly tattoos all increase everything this guy's about substantially (Including sending his Unarmed damage to the max). It even puts his BAB up to +16, the magic number. Again, it's less than optimized at 20, but Tankatronic can really be a monster around the midpoint of a campaign.
If anyone's got any suggestions, feel free to C&C!
Note: Thanks to Feintmaster for mentioning Steadfast Determination
I'm counting +4 (Ranger 4), +2 (Monk 1), +3 (FotF 3), +3 (Deepwarden 2)
4+2+3+3 = 12
not 22
Your base Will save seems to be off too. I'm only getting +7. Am I miscounting?
What about Superior Unarmed Strike?
Indeed, that's the direction I would go with this.
Drop the level of Monk; it slows you down. Do you notice that going Ranger 3/Fighter 1 would allow you to enter Fist of the Forest at 5th level, rather than 6th?
I could probably think of better uses for a level than Monk 1. Shou Disciple, for example.
Edit: Well, there is that problem of Dwarves not coming from the Shou Expatriot region, but you get the idea.
You could get +10 to your Con, and get Con to AC again (as well as a lot of other good stuff) with Forsaker, from Masters of the Wild, 3.0. Don't believe it's been renewed converted to 3.5 yet either.
...
Ranger 4/ Monk 1/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Deepwarden 2 (With Ascetic Hunter in there somewhere)
...
Any way to get a Dwarf with either Ranger or Monk as a favored class to avoid the XP penalty?
While writing the Ninja, the authors thought about the Monk. While reading the Fist of the Forest will a DM think about the Deepwarder and rule that the AC bonuses don't stack?
While writing the Ninja, the authors thought about the Monk. While reading the Fist of the Forest will a DM think about the Deepwarder and rule that the AC bonuses don't stack?
Why not? Paladin of Slaughter (or Tyranny) / Blackguards get CHA to saves twice. (Divine Grace and Dark Blessing). Throw in some Hexblade levels and you get CHA 3x.
Why not? Paladin of Slaughter (or Tyranny) / Blackguards get CHA to saves twice. (Divine Grace and Dark Blessing). Throw in some Hexblade levels and you get CHA 3x.
More to the point, I think, the Deepwarden and FotF abilities are different both in name and function. One works in armor, one does not. One supplements Dex; one replaces it. Clearly, they're not the same source, and should thus stack.
The Steadfast Determination feat from PHBII, for you Will save.
And you won't fail a fort save on a 1 anymore either I believe.
+ 2 rank increases from FotF
Like your build, but I've no idea what you mean by this line.
If you have Unarmed Strike of 1d10, when you take the 1st level of FotF, it gets bumped by one (2d8.) When you take your 2nd level of FotF, your unarmed is still "1d10" without FotF, so it is still bumped by one (2d8.) When you take your 3rd level of FotF, your unarmed is still "1d10" without FotF, it still gets the bump, which makes it 2d8.
You can gain a maximum of one bump with FotF, you do not gain one each level.
Hokay, couple of things: I need to edit the original build a bit; I was going to do a sketch build, but the power wasn't really clear like it was compared to the sketch build I did with my dwarf, so I replaced a bunch of stuff on there. My editing, however, clearly needs some clearing up.
Someone mentioned dropping the level of Monk before going into FotF, noting that it might be slowing me down. However, if one were to take Fighter for that level instead and nip in for the fifth level, you lose out on a LOT of unarmed damage, which is one of the sources for real potential abuse in this class. Remember, the level of Monk fills a feat prereq, gives me another useful feat on top of that, and allows me to play tricks with my Unarmed damage via Ascetic Tracker. Without that monk level, my Unarmed maxes at 1d10, which is a far cry from 2d8.
In regards to the saves, there's a typo there; I had the base saves displayed earlier, then added in the stat mods later, but forgot to remove the "(base)" bit. Oops.
In regards to the damage unarmed damage bumps from FotF, I'll refer again to the bolded part of my original post: the quote says specifically that if your Unarmed already deals this much damage, increase it one step. I'll refer you to the example character in the Complete Champion (Page 81) (Monk 6/FotF 3), which lists unarmed damage at 2d6, two steps above where it should be for a 6th level Monk.
I really like Steadfast Determination for this build! The only saves you can't afford to fail are the ones you never will! I'll edit the OP to include it.
Thanks for the commentary, guys!
the quote says specifically that if your Unarmed already deals this much damage, increase it one step. I'll refer you to the example character in the Complete Champion (Page 81) (Monk 6/FotF 3), which lists unarmed damage at 2d6, two steps above where it should be for a 6th level Monk.
The quote (and the book) do not make it clear (and to me disagrees with you completed on that point.) I did read the book before I posted the first time (I had to read it to see if you were right.)
While the sample character is +2 steps beyond, the wording they used is not worded in a way that would reasonable communication the meaning.
I do agree based on the evidence of the sample character, it does what what you suggest. Is this an issue of chart vs text? With the sample character being a "chart"?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12491036
(OK, so it's mine. Sue me, it's still a good build, IMHO)
What about adding in Frost Rager?
Something lilke Barb1/Fighter3/FotF3/Frost Rager5.
Frost Rager alone does d8+d6 damage, has a mini Flurry and gets Rend and +6 NA
Nice, tight build. I'm doing something somewhat similar with a Changeling Warshaper; will post when finished.
You've noticed the Shapechange Druid alternate class feature in PHB II, yeah?
At this point, 1 level of Druid will get you into Warshaper.
This build is kind of meant to showcase what I believe was an oversight on Wizards' part (i.e., giving a stacking variation of functionally the same ability to two classes that a single PC can very easily get). The obnoxiously high constitution makes this fellow not only an amazingly effective tank, since he gets 16 AC and 80 HP from high Con, but a pretty solid melee combatant as well. Personally, this setup just seems to be too good to be fair for a mid-level build.
Yeah, I'm pretty well set with dwarf, just due to the entry reqs on Deepwarden.
This build is kind of meant to showcase what I believe was an oversight on Wizards' part (i.e., giving a stacking variation of functionally the same ability to two classes that a single PC can very easily get). The obnoxiously high constitution makes this fellow not only an amazingly effective tank, since he gets 16 AC and 80 HP from high Con, but a pretty solid melee combatant as well. Personally, this setup just seems to be too good to be fair for a mid-level build.
I'd actually say your character is pretty lacking in melee, just like most other monk-type. 2d8+1d6+4 averages out to 16 points of damage per hit, which isn't bad but hardly 'overpowered.' If your enemy has DR 5/anything then that could be an issue. And what do you do if you need a ranged attack?
I agree that the AC, hit points, and saving throws are impressive, though.
If your enemy has DR 5/anything then that could be an issue. And what do you do if you need a ranged attack?
You solve the DR issue by taking Sense Weakness (ignore 5 DR) and Water Splitting Stone (ignore 4 more DR.)
You solve the ranged issue by taking Ring the Golden Bell.
You've noticed the Shapechange Druid alternate class feature in PHB II, yeah?
At this point, 1 level of Druid will get you into Warshaper.
Sure, but with Changeling, 0 levels will get you into Warshaper, and let you maintain the benefits pretty much continuously. I like having hands.
You solve the DR issue by taking Sense Weakness (ignore 5 DR) and Water Splitting Stone (ignore 4 more DR.)
You solve the ranged issue by taking Ring the Golden Bell.
Combined those all require:
INT 13 (his build only had INT 8)
WIS 13 (his build only had WIS 12)
Stunning Fist (his build took Improved Grapple as the monk bonus feat)
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus
So, not really sure how he could cram all of that into 10 levels...
Dungeons, however... dungeons are very uncivilized.
Are you insinuating that my dungeons have no proper manners?
Well I beg to differ!
My dungeons invite all my players over for dinner on a regular basis and always, always welcome them with a warm reception. What better way to say 'thank you for coming' than to have mobs of monsters who waste no time in greeting you, wishing to sample the lovely dish you brought for them (usually your internal organs) with their appropriately sized cutting tools or their natural cuttlery?
Well, for ranged, I'd have the ranger combat style from level 2 that focuses on ranged attacks. Since you're fighting unarmed, you can't make use of the dual wielding combat style, and having the archery style lets you haul out a bow whenever you can't put a target in melee.
Last I checked, TWF could be combined with unarmed strikes. Has there been a ruling that changed that?
Well, for ranged, I'd have the ranger combat style from level 2 that focuses on ranged attacks. Since you're fighting unarmed, you can't make use of the dual wielding combat style, and having the archery style lets you haul out a bow whenever you can't put a target in melee. Admittedly, this is not the optimum plan, but this guy was built to tank, not damage. There are arcane casters for that.
Actually, TWF monks are fairly popular around here...its an extra attack, albeit with a minus to all attacks...a super-flurry, so to speak.
Just my 2 cents...but...Superior Unarmed Strike does add one damage class to Monk damage...and...for a huge boost, find a way to get Greater Mighty Wallop...
By the way...nice build. I think the Bear Warrior thing mentioned above would rock insanely, btw.
Yeah, I knew it! Quoting from the PHB, page 41, "A monk's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
And yes, that is the 3.5 rulebook. Did that sentence get eratta'd out of existence, or is everyone just ignoring it?
I don't necessarily agree, but that's the official stance. *shrug*
No kidding? I was sure it said right in the Unarmed Attack section under the monk listing that using anything like TWF was right out...
Yeah, I knew it! Quoting from the PHB, page 41, "A monk's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
And yes, that is the 3.5 rulebook. Did that sentence get eratta'd out of existence, or is everyone just ignoring it?
Mind you...they've specified that it does work...but unless you hit exceptionally well, it isn't neccesarily optimal. Just be aware, according to CustServ (and the FAQ, IIRC), it is legal...
And yes, that is the 3.5 rulebook. Did that sentence get eratta'd out of existence, or is everyone just ignoring it?
That simply means you can not use unarmed attacks as primary and secondary attacks at the same time. In other words an unarmed strike can not be a primary and off-hand attack in the same round despite there being multiple "weapons" as unarmed (foot, hand, head, etc.)
I was using this in a concept build I had with a Monk that got his full attack then used his off-hand attack with a flindbar to disarm his opponent (ok, so it was a Binder build, really, so sue me).
Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite
Dex 15.
Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I didn't think that you were considered to be "weilding a second weapon in your off hand".
Edit: I see the FAQ is saying "She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry)." Seems contrary to the TWF feat, to me, but oh well: it isn't remotely unbalancing.
And to caelic, im putting together a changling monk or fighter [dont have ToB so i dont know how superior unarmed strike works.] who goes warshaper. Im calling him Jack. Any one who can think of a boxer who faced opression due to racial tensions named jack can get a cookie from me.
KAMIKAZE!
out.the missinterpretations make the 3 level class much more than she was intended to be.
the con ac bonus does not stack with the wis ac bonus from monk.
the increase doesn't change your damage at the 2nd level...
in the iverall, that's a great class, but does not worth my 2cp...
i've seen so much builds like this...
the missinterpretations make the 3 level class much more than she was intended to be.
the con ac bonus does not stack with the wis ac bonus from monk.
the increase doesn't change your damage at the 2nd level...
in the iverall, that's a great class, but does not worth my 2cp...
Where exactly does it state that the wisdom bonus to ac from monk and con bonus from FotF do not stack? In Complete Champion it merely referrences the Monk's ability to show the example of how the bonus works.
Dwarf
Dwarf Paragon 3/Monk1/FotF2/Deepwarden2/Barbarian1/Bear Warrior1/Warshaper2/Bear Warrior4FotF1/Barbarian3
Using 32 point buy, you get the following stats:
Str: 24 (14 base + 5 manual + 6 belt + 4 )
Dex: 17 (12 base + 5 manual)
Con: 38 (18 base+ 2 racial + 2 paragon + 5 from levels + 5 from manual + 6 from amulet)
Int: 10
Wis: 17 (12 base +5 tome)
Cha: 6 (8 base - 2 racial)
BAB = +18
Hit Dice = 11d12+6d10+2d8+3d8
Build Progression
1. Dwarf Paragon: Great Fortitude
2. Dwarf Paragon:
3. Dwarf Paragon: Endurance
4. Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack(Overwhelming Attack Variant)
5. Barbarian:
6. Fist of the Forest: Improved Natural Attack
7. Fist of the Forest:
8. Deepwarden:
9. Deepwarden: Superior Unarmed Strike
10. Bear Warrior:
11. Warshaper:
12. Warshaper: Extra Rage
13. Bear Warrior:
14. Bear Warrior:
15. Bear Warrior: Feat
16. Bear Warrior:
17. Fist of the Forest:
18. Barbarian: Feat
19. Barbarian:
20. Barbarian:
1. Dwarf Paragon: Great Fortitude
2. Dwarf Paragon:
3. Dwarf Paragon: Endurance
4. Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack(Overwhelming Attack Variant)
5. Barbarian:
6. Fist of the Forest: Improved Natural Attack
7. Fist of the Forest:
8. Deepwarden:
9. Deepwarden: Superior Unarmed Strike
10. Bear Warrior:
11. Warshaper:
12. Warshaper: Extra Rage
13. Bear Warrior:
14. Bear Warrior:
15. Bear Warrior: Feat
16. Bear Warrior:
17. Fist of the Forest:
18. Barbarian: Feat
19. Barbarian:
20. Barbarian:
Also,you have Barbarian levels with Monk levels..unless you're using the UE,or OA varaint I think it is. You can't slap this build together as it won't work.
Also,you have Barbarian levels with Monk levels..unless you're using the UE,or OA varaint I think it is. You can't slap this build together as it won't work.
Incorrect. A monk that stops being lawful may not gain further levels in the monk class, but retains all of his abilities. He goes from lawful, to non to get into barbarian.
Nice catch on the BAB though, I fixed the level order to make it work.
Not to mention that Frenzy and Evasion go quite well together at that
Edit: you already have a Monk's belt, make that +2 monk levels and one size category. Plus Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Fearun?) which I forget. It's good though, if I remember right.
Note: A level 6 Warforged Monk with a Monk's belt and a Warforged Battlegauntlet (and I.N.W. and Superior Unarmed Combat and Carmendine Monk) has unarmed damage equal to a large monk of level 16, then increased another size category. Thats 3d8 + 1 Size Category... so I don't know what that is, but its good.
-AS-
Last I checked, TWF could be combined with unarmed strikes. Has there been a ruling that changed that?
Nope, its still like that. In the FAQ, even. I don't like the ruling, though, but that doesn't matter much.
It's a Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/ Deepwarden 2/ Battlerager 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 5 :D
Also, maybe try intelligent tanking. Search in SHCOL.
You need Knowledge(Nature): 8 to qualify for the Green Guardian, so make sure you have enough skill points!
Bad editing on their part though. If you needed Know 8 for the GG`s, it should have been listed with the skill requirements for FotF.
I hate to pop a bubble here, but to enter the Fist of the Forest, the special requirement is to be a number of the Green Guardians, which is fine, however:
You need Knowledge(Nature): 8 to qualify for the Green Guardian, so make sure you have enough skill points!
Bad editing on their part though. If you needed Know 8 for the GG`s, it should have been listed with the skill requirements for FotF.
Minor nitpick: You need to gain approval by the leaders of a band of Guardians of the Green. That's not the same thing as actually being a member of the Guardians of the Green yourself
~Bowen