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Flesh out this party

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Inquisitor_Tremayne
Jan 18, 2010 16:29:50 Well, I had another character death in the current campaign we are running (Age of Worms). I now basically have my pick of any 8th level character I want to play. Only 3 stipulations, 1) I want a powerful character, doesn't matter what or where that power comes from I want to be the "uber" power character, 2) I rolled these stats: 15, 14, 14, 11, 11, 10; 3) can only use core 3.5 books, no setting books allowed and no monstrous races.

We currently have the following characters in the party:

Elf cleric/warlock/eldritch disciple
Dwarf Fighter
Human Evoker
Human Knight

SO, with the above criteria, what character would YOU make?

I figure where better to ask than the CO boards right?

I really honestly have no idea what I want to play. So far in this campaign I have played an Elven Wizard and a human rogue/fighter/ranger.
#2
phaedrusxy
Jan 18, 2010 17:08:59 I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5.
#3
Inquisitor_Tremayne
Jan 18, 2010 17:59:38 Sources please?
#4
Inquisitor_Tremayne
Jan 18, 2010 18:02:32
I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5.

bard 10/crusader 10?
Human?
Suggest ability scores?
Words of Creation?
Exalted?
Inspirational Boost?
#5
cru
Jan 19, 2010 5:48:58 core druid 8.

race middle-aged human: 13 str, 10 dex, 13+1 con, 12 int, 16+1 wis, 11 cha (13 str for power attack)
or race human: 10 str, 11 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 15+2 wis, 11 cha
or race forest gnome (mm1): 8 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 15+2 wis, 11 cha

feats
1+3: spell focus conjuration, augment summoning
6 natural spell
H: power attack
later options: extend spell, multiattack, improved natural attack (claw or bite), quicken, empower, ...

animal companion:
if you need to walk through cities: riding dog, trained for war (18 str, 17 dex, 15 con; 6d8+12 hp, speed 40 ft., AC 23 with leather barding); also mount for gnome
if you just need to rip things apart: brown bear

wild shape forms: polar bear (mauler), dire lion/rhino (charger), dire bat (fly)

spells:
entangle, faerie fire, charm animal
bull's strength, resist energy
greater magic fang, sleet storm
flame strike, reincarnate, dispel magic, freedom of movement

gear (WBL8: 27k):
periapt of wisdom +2 - 4000
lesser rod of extend - 3000
dragonhide plate, +1 wild: 19300 (not proficient though)
#6
phaedrusxy
Jan 19, 2010 9:23:44
I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5.

bard 10/crusader 10?
Human?
Suggest ability scores?
Words of Creation?
Exalted?
Inspirational Boost?

More like bard 2/crusader 18, or bard 4/crusader 16. Human is always good for the extra feat. Crusader is from the Tome of Battle. The Song of the White Raven feat lets your crusader levels stack with bard for determining Inspire Courage bonuses and also lets you activate Inspire Courage as a swift action (this is from memory, but I think that's right).

For the rest... look here.

I'm sure there are some bard/crusader builds that you can find on here if you dig around, also. It is an obvious combination, what with the feat I mentioned.
#7
Inquisitor_Tremayne
Jan 19, 2010 18:47:15
More like bard 2/crusader 18, or bard 4/crusader 16. Human is always good for the extra feat. Crusader is from the Tome of Battle. The Song of the White Raven feat lets your crusader levels stack with bard for determining Inspire Courage bonuses and also lets you activate Inspire Courage as a swift action (this is from memory, but I think that's right).

For the rest... look here.

I'm sure there are some bard/crusader builds that you can find on here if you dig around, also. It is an obvious combination, what with the feat I mentioned.

This over a "God" wizard though?
#8
NiteCyper
Jan 19, 2010 18:53:22 re: post #7 (post above):
Wait, what was I thinking? Here: [link to Pun-Pun]

That was a real post. DAMN YOU, PURGE!

Point: Yes, that's what he'd rather play than a "God" wizard. I'll take the benefit of the doubt so I can elaborate here. For one, PhaedrusXY will most likely have played a "God" wizard before due to his experience. Secondly, why am I elaborating?

Addendum: Let me present an analogy: What's your favorite sport?
open this and read after you answer
That over [insert different sport here]?
#9
Inquisitor_Tremayne
Jan 20, 2010 11:40:59 Maybe let me pose the question this way, is there a character that can consistantly dominate most adventuring encounters?

I'm not looking to instantly push the "win" button, but I am looking for a character that is useable for all situations. Theoretically what I am thinking is a Factotum/God Wizard.

As another project while you are mulling over that question, how would a Factotum/Chameleon/Mage of the Arcane Order Work? Would it work?
#10
phaedrusxy
Jan 20, 2010 15:01:24

This over a "God" wizard though?

If you want to play a wizard, why didn't you say so? I figured you already have one in your party...

The guy I suggested should be insanely hard to kill, should be able to provide very strong "lockdown" abilities with the right feats + Thicket of Blades (and maybe some manuvers), will give his allies (and himself) very nice buffs to their combat effectiveness, allow one of them to occasionally take two turns worth of actions via White Raven Tactics, and will also have in-combat healing that is pretty good.

And it can keep going all freakin' day long, no matter how many encounters you have. You'll run out of Bardic Music uses eventually, but you're still a freakin' lockdown crusader. So you're only missing a bit of +s to your attack and damage that you can easily live without.
#11
damien_the_bloodfeaster
Jan 20, 2010 17:05:31 How about a human Cleric 5/Malconvoker 3?

Stats: Wisdom 17 (+2 @ L4 & 8), Charisma 14, Constitution 14, Strength 11, Intelligence 11, Dexterity 10.

Feats: Human = Spell Focus (Conjuration)
L1 = Augment Summoning
L3 = Rapid Spell (Complete Divine)
L6 = Divine Metamagic (Rapid Spell) (Complete Divine)
...L9 might be Twin Spell or Repeat Spell, with a Divine Metamagic for it at L12

Domains: Trickery (for Bluff as class skill and invisibility at level 2)
Summoning (in Spell Compendium)
...if you must follow a specific deity, take instead Luck (Olidammara has Trickery and Luck)

Skills: At least 4 ranks in Knowledge (the planes); max out Bluff and Concentration. Take Celestial, Infernal, and Terran as languages, and also possibly Abyssal and the other elemental languages. Consider at least two ranks in Tumble (cross-class).

Items: Periapt of Wisdom +2 at least. Try to get an item crafted that enhances Bluff (like a cloak).

Summoning is a potentially very powerful and versatile form of spellcasting. Need more hitters? Need more spellcasters? Need scouts? Summoning (and later, planar binding) has something for whatever you desire. The sweet spot is when you hit level 10, and you gain +1 summoned creature when you summon an evil creature, effectively doubling the power of all your summon monster spells.

If your DM doesn't allow Divine Metamagic feats (many don't), consider instead getting one or more Metamagic Rods of Rapid Spell instead. The ability to cast as a standard action instead of a full round action is very useful.

In addition to summoning, you have access to the benefits of the cleric spell list, decent hit points, the ability to wear armor, and an okay BAB.

For a more in-depth analysis of the Malconvoker, search the boards for Treantmonks' "Mastering the Malconvoker" thread.

(Edit: Malconvoker is in Complete Scoundrel I believe.)
#12
NiteCyper
Jan 20, 2010 17:53:40
Maybe let me pose the question this way, is there a character that can consistantly dominate most adventuring encounters?

I'm not looking to instantly push the "win" button, but I am looking for a character that is useable for all situations. Theoretically what I am thinking is a Factotum/God Wizard.

As another project while you are mulling over that question, how would a Factotum/Chameleon/Mage of the Arcane Order Work? Would it work?

1. re: domination: Yes, and to avoid waiting for your follow-up, it's Pun-Pun, and to avoid your follow-up, no character is there that can consistently dominate most adventuring encounters that isn't considered a "campaign smasher".
Disclaimer: the previous statement assumes that such characters that the CO boards considers consistently able to dominate most adventuring encounters, are considered campaign smashers. Marginal domination, i.e. optimal, but not broken, are what we hope to help you build.
2. re: versatility, not instant victory: That's what we assume; see disclaimer in point 1.

3. re: Factotum/God Wizard: I've already sent you a PM back. Why don't you reply? Elsewise, I'm not getting any pop-up telling me you added me.
#13
phaedrusxy
Jan 20, 2010 20:24:48 With some mild early entry cheese, you could also have the 3rd level of Shadowcraft Mage by then. I'm playing a cloistered cleric/shadowcraft mage and I think it is quite potent. I don't know that it would be stronger than say a Beguiler/SCM, though, and the early entry cheese is a lot easier and more tolerable with that. Of course, the strongest is probably a gnome illusionist/SCM with the racial sub-level(s?) and all that jazz.
#14
NiteCyper
Jan 20, 2010 22:24:09 @PhaedrusXY: "That goes great with cheese." What goes great with cheese, i.e. what, with some mild early entry cheese, could also have them the 3rd level of Shadowcraft Mage by then?
The early entry cheese is a lot easier and more tolerable with what? Beguiler/ScM?

re: "racial sub level(s?)": if one could qualify for and start taking levels in ScM by level 1, is it worth taking 3 levels more in the base class with no class features to gain some neat things at level 5 of the base class? I think at least some of those neat things are a Wizard bonus feat (if not traded off, and could be a Fighter bonus feat with the proper variant), and/or INT to Hide checks (via the Shadow Shaper-ACF (UA)).

Considering how the 5th level ability of the Gnome Illusionist racial sub level is lightly/rarely mentioned in passing, denoted is its insignificance. Some ACF and/or another(s) also sacrifice those Wizard bonus feats, leading to further discouragement of (consideration of) advancing to those levels (in the base class).
#15
phaedrusxy
Jan 20, 2010 22:50:29 I mean the cheese for beguiler early entry (Versatile Spellcaster) is a lot more tolerable than the one that I used for cloistered cleric early entry (Divine Metamagic: Heighten). The second one can technically let you do absurd things like emulate 9th level spells at like 5th or 6th character level.
#16
NiteCyper
Jan 20, 2010 23:06:08
cloistered cleric early entry (Divine Metamagic: Heighten). The second one can technically let you do absurd things like emulate 9th level spells at like 5th or 6th character level.

I've been meaning to post: Metamagic School Focus (+3) + Dragon's Tear (optional spell component, CM) and/or Precocious Apprentice (some lesser Fireball) + Impromptu Megamagic-ACF (D357, +5) + Heighten Spell + Flaws = same (emulate 9th level spells, at level 1, 1/day). Talfrian Song too, no?

Fiery Burst [Reserve] feat, anyone?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Inquisitor_Tremayne Jan 18, 2010 16:29:50	Well, I had another character death in the current campaign we are running (Age of Worms). I now basically have my pick of any 8th level character I want to play. Only 3 stipulations, 1) I want a powerful character, doesn't matter what or where that power comes from I want to be the "uber" power character, 2) I rolled these stats: 15, 14, 14, 11, 11, 10; 3) can only use core 3.5 books, no setting books allowed and no monstrous races. We currently have the following characters in the party: Elf cleric/warlock/eldritch disciple Dwarf Fighter Human Evoker Human Knight SO, with the above criteria, what character would YOU make? I figure where better to ask than the CO boards right? I really honestly have no idea what I want to play. So far in this campaign I have played an Elven Wizard and a human rogue/fighter/ranger.
#2 phaedrusxy Jan 18, 2010 17:08:59	I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5.
#3 Inquisitor_Tremayne Jan 18, 2010 17:59:38	Sources please?
#4 Inquisitor_Tremayne Jan 18, 2010 18:02:32	I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5. bard 10/crusader 10? Human? Suggest ability scores? Words of Creation? Exalted? Inspirational Boost?
#5 cru Jan 19, 2010 5:48:58	core druid 8. race middle-aged human: 13 str, 10 dex, 13+1 con, 12 int, 16+1 wis, 11 cha (13 str for power attack) or race human: 10 str, 11 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 15+2 wis, 11 cha or race forest gnome (mm1): 8 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 15+2 wis, 11 cha feats 1+3: spell focus conjuration, augment summoning 6 natural spell H: power attack later options: extend spell, multiattack, improved natural attack (claw or bite), quicken, empower, ... animal companion: if you need to walk through cities: riding dog, trained for war (18 str, 17 dex, 15 con; 6d8+12 hp, speed 40 ft., AC 23 with leather barding); also mount for gnome if you just need to rip things apart: brown bear wild shape forms: polar bear (mauler), dire lion/rhino (charger), dire bat (fly) spells: entangle, faerie fire, charm animal bull's strength, resist energy greater magic fang, sleet storm flame strike, reincarnate, dispel magic, freedom of movement gear (WBL8: 27k): periapt of wisdom +2 - 4000 lesser rod of extend - 3000 dragonhide plate, +1 wild: 19300 (not proficient though)
#6 phaedrusxy Jan 19, 2010 9:23:44	I'd suggest a bard/crusader with the Song of the White Raven and Stone Power feats. Pump up your Inspire Courage, which you can activate as a swift action, and go pound on people while being nearly impossible to kill. The loss of the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron will cramp your IC slightly, but it shouldn't really hurt that much. You'll have a base of +2, doubled from Words of Creation if you can manage being Exalted, and then add another +1 from Inspirational Boost to get you to at least a +5. bard 10/crusader 10? Human? Suggest ability scores? Words of Creation? Exalted? Inspirational Boost? More like bard 2/crusader 18, or bard 4/crusader 16. Human is always good for the extra feat. Crusader is from the Tome of Battle. The Song of the White Raven feat lets your crusader levels stack with bard for determining Inspire Courage bonuses and also lets you activate Inspire Courage as a swift action (this is from memory, but I think that's right). For the rest... look here. I'm sure there are some bard/crusader builds that you can find on here if you dig around, also. It is an obvious combination, what with the feat I mentioned.
#7 Inquisitor_Tremayne Jan 19, 2010 18:47:15	More like bard 2/crusader 18, or bard 4/crusader 16. Human is always good for the extra feat. Crusader is from the Tome of Battle. The Song of the White Raven feat lets your crusader levels stack with bard for determining Inspire Courage bonuses and also lets you activate Inspire Courage as a swift action (this is from memory, but I think that's right). For the rest... look here. I'm sure there are some bard/crusader builds that you can find on here if you dig around, also. It is an obvious combination, what with the feat I mentioned. This over a "God" wizard though?
#8 NiteCyper Jan 19, 2010 18:53:22	re: post #7 (post above): Wait, what was I thinking? Here: [link to Pun-Pun] That was a real post. DAMN YOU, PURGE! Point: Yes, that's what he'd rather play than a "God" wizard. I'll take the benefit of the doubt so I can elaborate here. For one, PhaedrusXY will most likely have played a "God" wizard before due to his experience. Secondly, why am I elaborating? Addendum: Let me present an analogy: What's your favorite sport? open this and read after you answer That over [insert different sport here]?
#9 Inquisitor_Tremayne Jan 20, 2010 11:40:59	Maybe let me pose the question this way, is there a character that can consistantly dominate most adventuring encounters? I'm not looking to instantly push the "win" button, but I am looking for a character that is useable for all situations. Theoretically what I am thinking is a Factotum/God Wizard. As another project while you are mulling over that question, how would a Factotum/Chameleon/Mage of the Arcane Order Work? Would it work?
#10 phaedrusxy Jan 20, 2010 15:01:24	This over a "God" wizard though? If you want to play a wizard, why didn't you say so? I figured you already have one in your party... The guy I suggested should be insanely hard to kill, should be able to provide very strong "lockdown" abilities with the right feats + Thicket of Blades (and maybe some manuvers), will give his allies (and himself) very nice buffs to their combat effectiveness, allow one of them to occasionally take two turns worth of actions via White Raven Tactics, and will also have in-combat healing that is pretty good. And it can keep going all freakin' day long, no matter how many encounters you have. You'll run out of Bardic Music uses eventually, but you're still a freakin' lockdown crusader. So you're only missing a bit of +s to your attack and damage that you can easily live without.
#11 damien_the_bloodfeaster Jan 20, 2010 17:05:31	How about a human Cleric 5/Malconvoker 3? Stats: Wisdom 17 (+2 @ L4 & 8), Charisma 14, Constitution 14, Strength 11, Intelligence 11, Dexterity 10. Feats: Human = Spell Focus (Conjuration) L1 = Augment Summoning L3 = Rapid Spell (Complete Divine) L6 = Divine Metamagic (Rapid Spell) (Complete Divine) ...L9 might be Twin Spell or Repeat Spell, with a Divine Metamagic for it at L12 Domains: Trickery (for Bluff as class skill and invisibility at level 2) Summoning (in Spell Compendium) ...if you must follow a specific deity, take instead Luck (Olidammara has Trickery and Luck) Skills: At least 4 ranks in Knowledge (the planes); max out Bluff and Concentration. Take Celestial, Infernal, and Terran as languages, and also possibly Abyssal and the other elemental languages. Consider at least two ranks in Tumble (cross-class). Items: Periapt of Wisdom +2 at least. Try to get an item crafted that enhances Bluff (like a cloak). Summoning is a potentially very powerful and versatile form of spellcasting. Need more hitters? Need more spellcasters? Need scouts? Summoning (and later, planar binding) has something for whatever you desire. The sweet spot is when you hit level 10, and you gain +1 summoned creature when you summon an evil creature, effectively doubling the power of all your summon monster spells. If your DM doesn't allow Divine Metamagic feats (many don't), consider instead getting one or more Metamagic Rods of Rapid Spell instead. The ability to cast as a standard action instead of a full round action is very useful. In addition to summoning, you have access to the benefits of the cleric spell list, decent hit points, the ability to wear armor, and an okay BAB. For a more in-depth analysis of the Malconvoker, search the boards for Treantmonks' "Mastering the Malconvoker" thread. (Edit: Malconvoker is in Complete Scoundrel I believe.)
#12 NiteCyper Jan 20, 2010 17:53:40	Maybe let me pose the question this way, is there a character that can consistantly dominate most adventuring encounters? I'm not looking to instantly push the "win" button, but I am looking for a character that is useable for all situations. Theoretically what I am thinking is a Factotum/God Wizard. As another project while you are mulling over that question, how would a Factotum/Chameleon/Mage of the Arcane Order Work? Would it work? 1. re: domination: Yes, and to avoid waiting for your follow-up, it's Pun-Pun, and to avoid your follow-up, no character is there that can consistently dominate most adventuring encounters that isn't considered a "campaign smasher". Disclaimer: the previous statement assumes that such characters that the CO boards considers consistently able to dominate most adventuring encounters, are considered campaign smashers. Marginal domination, i.e. optimal, but not broken, are what we hope to help you build. 2. re: versatility, not instant victory: That's what we assume; see disclaimer in point 1. 3. re: Factotum/God Wizard: I've already sent you a PM back. Why don't you reply? Elsewise, I'm not getting any pop-up telling me you added me.
#13 phaedrusxy Jan 20, 2010 20:24:48	With some mild early entry cheese, you could also have the 3rd level of Shadowcraft Mage by then. I'm playing a cloistered cleric/shadowcraft mage and I think it is quite potent. I don't know that it would be stronger than say a Beguiler/SCM, though, and the early entry cheese is a lot easier and more tolerable with that. Of course, the strongest is probably a gnome illusionist/SCM with the racial sub-level(s?) and all that jazz.
#14 NiteCyper Jan 20, 2010 22:24:09	@PhaedrusXY: "That goes great with cheese." What goes great with cheese, i.e. what, with some mild early entry cheese, could also have them the 3rd level of Shadowcraft Mage by then? The early entry cheese is a lot easier and more tolerable with what? Beguiler/ScM? re: "racial sub level(s?)": if one could qualify for and start taking levels in ScM by level 1, is it worth taking 3 levels more in the base class with no class features to gain some neat things at level 5 of the base class? I think at least some of those neat things are a Wizard bonus feat (if not traded off, and could be a Fighter bonus feat with the proper variant), and/or INT to Hide checks (via the Shadow Shaper-ACF (UA)). Considering how the 5th level ability of the Gnome Illusionist racial sub level is lightly/rarely mentioned in passing, denoted is its insignificance. Some ACF and/or another(s) also sacrifice those Wizard bonus feats, leading to further discouragement of (consideration of) advancing to those levels (in the base class).
#15 phaedrusxy Jan 20, 2010 22:50:29	I mean the cheese for beguiler early entry (Versatile Spellcaster) is a lot more tolerable than the one that I used for cloistered cleric early entry (Divine Metamagic: Heighten). The second one can technically let you do absurd things like emulate 9th level spells at like 5th or 6th character level.
#16 NiteCyper Jan 20, 2010 23:06:08	cloistered cleric early entry (Divine Metamagic: Heighten). The second one can technically let you do absurd things like emulate 9th level spells at like 5th or 6th character level. I've been meaning to post: Metamagic School Focus (+3) + Dragon's Tear (optional spell component, CM) and/or Precocious Apprentice (some lesser Fireball) + Impromptu Megamagic-ACF (D357, +5) + Heighten Spell + Flaws = same (emulate 9th level spells, at level 1, 1/day). Talfrian Song too, no? Fiery Burst [Reserve] feat, anyone?