And as a high level monk one has two extra flurrys, does one get the two extra attacks on the primary hand AND offhand, or two extra total? and where would they be applied?
Well, the way Perfect TWF is worded, you'd get additional attacks with your offhand, because it says that you get as many as your primary hand. Same deal if you have a Speed weapon in your main hand (but two Speed weapons don't stack, apparently. I'm still a bit confused on that one, but I'm tired of arguing it). But you have to be using a special monk weapon, because as I understand it, you only have one unarmed strike and thus cannot TWF with it.
I believe there's a series of feats on the Eberron Campaign Setting that allows a monk to use a longsword and other weapons as a monk weapon
If one has say, lvl 20, perfect twf, etc etc.
And as a high level monk one has two extra flurrys, does one get the two extra attacks on the primary hand AND offhand, or two extra total? and where would they be applied?
Well first of all, your build is illegal because Perfect TWF is an Epic feat.
Also, the Flurry of Blows may be main hand *or* off-hand, your choice, but you get two total.
You flurry with the main hand. Then you use PTWF, which states that you get the same number of attacks with the off-hand as the main hand. Think about that for a second...
Thats nice. That's also epic. Getting 2 extra melee attacks in epic is about as good as being able to spit watermelon seeds 100'.
Thats nice. That's also epic. Getting 2 extra melee attacks in epic is about as good as being able to spit watermelon seeds 100'.
Hey, I didn't say it was GOOD. I just said it works
Thats nice. That's also epic. Getting 2 extra melee attacks in epic is about as good as being able to spit watermelon seeds 100'.
But no where near as impressive.
Two extra epic attacks can be considerable -since by that stage most standard damage has been replaced by the secondary ability damaging or level drain weapon effects (souldrinker's 2d4 negative levels for example).
Most creatures will be immune to... most things, in epic.
Most creatures will be immune to... most things, in epic.
Not necessarily. The abomination type of outsider, undead, constructs and oozes are immune to ability drain and energy drain. Just like sub epic games. Other than that it's down to equipment reliance which has its own set of problems in an enviroment where enemies often have access to disjunction.
In my experience, quite often the best way to solve a tough Epic fight is suppression of their magic items followed by spamming ability damage or energy drain to drop their saves and HP.
Not necessarily. The abomination type of outsider, undead, constructs and oozes are immune to ability drain and energy drain. Just like sub epic games. Other than that it's down to equipment reliance which has its own set of problems in an enviroment where enemies often have access to disjunction.
In my experience, quite often the best way to solve a tough Epic fight is suppression of their magic items followed by spamming ability damage or energy drain to drop their saves and HP.
If everything gets MDJ'd then the spellcasters still win, because they can just cast Overland Fight and Wind Wall and be untouchable. Furthermore, because of equipment reliance you *cant* spam ability damage and energy drain because you're getting them from items yourself. You'd have to be a spellcaster to do that, and seriously nobody cares about Perfect TWF when they're a spellcaster.
Then again, there are a lot better ways of debuffing enemies than trying to hit them with a sword.
Very definitely, I'm playing devil's advocate I'll admit. ;)
If everything gets MDJ'd then the spellcasters still win, because they can just cast Overland Fight and Wind Wall and be untouchable. Furthermore, because of equipment reliance you *cant* spam ability damage and energy drain because you're getting them from items yourself. You'd have to be a spellcaster to do that, and seriously nobody cares about Perfect TWF when they're a spellcaster.
Well, you're half right - spellcasters are still just better. I'd thought that was meant to be a rule of the game :P
On the other hand, there's at least a couple of (cheap) ways of picking up non-item dependent level or ability drain. In addition, negative level spam often stops the opponents being able to disjunct your team because of their spell loss.
If one has say, lvl 20, perfect twf, etc etc.
And as a high level monk one has two extra flurrys, does one get the two extra attacks on the primary hand AND offhand, or two extra total? and where would they be applied?
One valid interpretation of PTWF is that you get the 4th attack from BAB only. So your questions circles around the meaning of the PTWF ability.
It could mean:
1) If your BAB is 16 or more, you get one (your 4th) more attack with your offhand.
2) You get a near infinite number of additional attacks.
Your DM is free to determine which way is what the rules are saying.
One valid interpretation of PTWF is that you get the 4th attack from BAB only. So your questions circles around the meaning of the PTWF ability.
It could mean:
1) If your BAB is 16 or more, you get one (your 4th) more attack with your offhand.
2) You get a near infinite number of additional attacks.
Your DM is free to determine which way is what the rules are saying.
Where is that said? I'd like to know, please.
Still waiting for the quote, Risner.
Where is that said? I'd like to know, please.
In the ability. Go search for the various threads hashing it out.
In short, the way they are written and the way the others are written you have two ways to interpret the abilities. The very liberal way and the less broken way (only 1 attack.)
Thats nice. That's also epic. Getting 2 extra melee attacks in epic is about as good as being able to spit watermelon seeds 100'.
Heh, two attacks are just another 150 to 200 damage if your build right. I did a calculation once. Just a GTWF/Basic Flurry with huge strength (and of course full PA using Wraithstrike, admittedly - it was for epic, after all) usually won against two-handed weapons with just 5 attacks with the same Str until the DR became larger than 20. And after the updates most epic monsters have about 15 DR.
Going by SRD wording I would say the Flurry is an absolute bonus, though, and is not improved by PTWF. A monk can make the Flurry attacks with any legal weapon or body part and always uses his full Str-bonus - even if he uses his off-hand weapon.
In the ability. Go search for the various threads hashing it out.
In short, the way they are written and the way the others are written you have two ways to interpret the abilities. The very liberal way and the less broken way (only 1 attack.)
Quoting the SRD:
"You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons."
When you Flurry, you get 5 attacks with your primary hand (or 6 if you can get your BAB to 16+). So, what was this about another interpretation?
Also, looking at the table given in Monk, it would seem that Flurry becomes part of your attack sequence. Instead of +15/+10+5, you get +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 with your primary hand.
You are not getting an extra attack with your primary hand.
You're getting one extra attack as part of your full attack.
There's a subtle difference. If you had 15 "hands" flurry only gives you one extra attack in a round that you must take using an unarmed strike or special monk weapon. It isn't that you can add an additional attack for one particular weapon ... and then flurry each weapon in each hand, etc.
Thing is, you have to assign the extra attacks from flurry *somewhere*. You can't just say I flurry and expect the air to roundhouse kick the enemy. Only Chuck Norris can do that, and you ain't him. So, you assign it to your primary hand and then let PTWF take over as per normal. This is like using multiple metamagic feats on a single spell. The player assigns them in the manner that he desires.
(Your attack routine) +1 flurry (which has to be with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon)
... Not ...
(your primary weapon adding an additional from flurry if it is unarmed or special monk) + (twf weapon which could also get an additional from flurry if it were unarmed or special monk) + (secondary natural attacks)
Flurry is a special adder on the end. Not part of your iterative from a high BAB.
The TWF feats may be wonky and might expose some other things, but remember the flurry attack isn't "+1 attack with your primary weapon" ... it's ONE extra attack on top of everything else.
Just so everyone's clear
(Your attack routine) +1 flurry (which has to be with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon)
... Not ...
(your primary weapon adding an additional from flurry if it is unarmed or special monk) + (twf weapon which could also get an additional from flurry if it were unarmed or special monk) + (secondary natural attacks)
Flurry is a special adder on the end. Not part of your iterative from a high BAB.
The TWF feats may be wonky and might expose some other things, but remember the flurry attack isn't "+1 attack with your primary weapon" ... it's ONE extra attack on top of everything else.
Just to be clear, you are saying the Ftr 1/Monk 19 can have 3 attacks with a battleaxe (normal attacks) + another 3 with a shortsword (offhand with GTWF) + 2 attacks with unarmed strike (extra flurry attacks)?
Just to be clear, you are saying the Ftr 1/Monk 19 can have 3 attacks with a battleaxe (normal attacks) + another 3 with a shortsword (offhand with GTWF) + 2 attacks with unarmed strike (extra flurry attacks)?
Seems like it. If your offhand were a monk weapon you could flurry with your offhand instead of unarmed strikes. You can assign a flurry attack to an unarmed strike or monk weapon (for damage), but it will never be a Primary hand attack, or an offhand attack, it will just be a Flurry attack at the given attack bonus, and always add your normal Str-mod.
Seems like it. If your offhand were a monk weapon you could flurry with your offhand instead of unarmed strikes. You can assign a flurry attack to an unarmed strike or monk weapon (for damage), but it will never be a Primary hand attack, or an offhand attack, it will just be a Flurry attack at the given attack bonus, and always add your normal Str-mod.
Note that either of the weapons in the primary hand or the off-hand are Monk weapons, but you are saying that you can still flurry while attacking with those?
Quoting the SRD:
"You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon
You only every get a maximum of 4 attacks with your primary hand, and that requires BAB 16 or more.
You only every get a maximum of 4 attacks with your primary hand, and that requires BAB 16 or more.
If a Monk with +15 BAB flurries, how many attacks does he get, and what hand does he use to do it?
If a Monk with +15 BAB flurries, how many attacks does he get, and what hand does he use to do it?
The way I read it: Three iteratives at 15/10/5. In addition, 2 Flurries at 15/15 (assuming high enough Monk-level) with unarmed strikes or any hand holding a special monk weapon. (FAQ says otherwise. See below.)
Now what I don't know is whether only the two attacks count as the flurry, or all attacks in sequence. SRD doesn't make this clear. Now in the FAQ there are multiple questions regarding this, and the rulings seem to be:
You can't even make a flurry if any of the attacks are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons. That includes natural weapons. However, I'm quite certain this was contradicted by rulings concerning natural attacks.
You CAN use TWF. But you can't make an off-hand attack one of your flurry bonus attacks. Hmm, that seems to contradict the SRD wording again, in a way.
And then some:
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.
This was talked about before around here.
The way I read it: Three iteratives at 15/10/5. In addition, 2 Flurries at 15/15 (assuming high enough Monk-level) with unarmed strikes or any hand holding a special monk weapon. (FAQ says otherwise. See below.)
Now what I don't know is whether only the two attacks count as the flurry, or all attacks in sequence. SRD doesn't make this clear. Now in the FAQ there are multiple questions regarding this, and the rulings seem to be:
You can't even make a flurry if any of the attacks are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons. That includes natural weapons. However, I'm quite certain this was contradicted by rulings concerning natural attacks.
You CAN use TWF. But you can't make an off-hand attack one of your flurry bonus attacks. Hmm, that seems to contradict the SRD wording again, in a way.
And then some:
This was talked about before around here.
So, the FAQ actually came out and said that you get 5 attacks in the *primary* hand? Well, there goes the controversy, doesn't it? If you get 5 attacks in the primary hand, then you get 5 with the off-hand with PTWF. That is QED.
You only every get a maximum of 4 attacks with your primary hand, and that requires BAB 16 or more.
A common misconception. You can only ever get a maximum of 4 attacks with your primary hand from BAB alone. Otherwise, Speed weapons would be useless to anyone with BAB 16 or greater.
A common misconception. You can only ever get a maximum of 4 attacks with your primary hand from BAB alone. Otherwise, Speed weapons would be useless to anyone with BAB 16 or greater.
No misconception here, well at least not by me.
You get a maximum of 4 primary attacks, and yes they are from BAB.
You can get loads of other attacks using your maximum BAB, like from Snap Kick, TWF, Flurry, Speed, Haste, etc. They are all additional attacks, but none are primary attacks from BAB.
PTWF only worries about primary attacks.
No misconception here, well at least not by me.
You get a maximum of 4 primary attacks, and yes they are from BAB.
You can get loads of other attacks using your maximum BAB, like from Snap Kick, TWF, Flurry, Speed, Haste, etc. They are all additional attacks, but none are primary attacks from BAB.
PTWF only worries about primary attacks.
Beep! Wrong!
PTWF never said that. It says "same number of attacks as your primary hand" not "same number of base attacks". In fact, "primary attack" as used by you here is a term that has never come up in DnD 3.x. It is something YOU MADE UP.
Even the FAQ says you are wrong (see above FAQ quote). Just give up and return to the Deepwarden thread. You've lost this one, Risner.