Fochlucan Lyrist question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fochlucan Lyrist question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
grifter730_dup
Jan 01, 2009 21:29:16 I've been looking up FL builds, and they almost always use a really low druid level progression. I'm not sure why, but it's making me question my build. Would a Rogue 2/Bard 1/Druid 7 qualify for FL? Granted, 13 ranks of perform might be hard to get in 1 go, but assuming that I can get that, is that a viable build?

It ends up with lvl 9 druid spells, which I think is better than the buffs from Bardic Music and the knowledge from Bardic Knowledge. With Vest of Legends, Inspire Courage can be treated as a lvl 16 Bard, which is good enough. It's more of a druid than bard build, but it works, right?
#2
pithica
Jan 01, 2009 23:22:08 If you play with LA Buyback (heck, even if you don't), Shadow Creature Template from Lords of Madness is a better source for Evasion than Rogue Two. It's a +2 LA template that not only grants evasion, but Fast Healing and a handful of other useful things (and admittedly, some crap, but you lose fewer caster levels this way).

Likewise, Divine Oracle 2 is an option, if you can convince your DM that it counts as Evasion (it's actually BETTER than evasion). Everyone in my group has that as an accepted house-rule.

Finally, there's spell dancer from Magic of Faerun. I personally never use this one because of the CRAZY CRAZY feat requirements, but if you can stomach the feats (or you were planning on taking them anyway), it's doable.

That being said, assuming you can cover the perform skill, and the massive list of other skills at the same time, yes, you're build above would qualify. I believe most people focus on Bard, because of all the abuseability of bardic music and the fact that it makes the skill selection required to qualify exponentially cheaper.

Assuming LA buyback and that Southern Magician works for your DM, I've always liked the following FL build (using Able Learner for skills)...

Shadow Human, Bard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 4/Folchuchan Lyricist 10.

It's simple and highly utilitarian. Druid/Bard 17 casting and 13th level bardic music (before Items), +17 BAB, a companion familiar, and Wildshape (of potentially 12th level druid, with items), evasion, fast healing, and some other stuff from the template. At low-levels, to be honest, the build bites the big one, but if your starting any time after 10, it isn't that bad, and by 20 you'll be feeling pretty solid.
#3
jameswilliamogle
Jan 01, 2009 23:27:54 It all ends up being very close, and depends greatly on where the campaign begins and ends. A lot of the builds I remember end up w/ 9th level druidic casting, though...

Rogue 2 / Bard 1 / Druid 7 does qualify in time. The skills are tough, as you mentioned. A lot of people dump the Rogue levels and take the Bind Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra feat from Magic of Incarnum to get the Evasion requirements. It also frees up 2 levels of spellcasting, as well.

The skill requirements are much easier if you take Able Learner as a feat at 1st.

So...
Bard 1 / Druid 9 / FL 10
Able Learner, Bind Soulmeld, Open Least Chakra, then you have 5 feats free. You get 2 more spellcasting levels in. The Bardic casting sucks, though.

Most of those other builds you mentioned use a lot of other options to boost up the arcane spellcasting. By delaying the casting on the Druid side by 2 levels, one can get 9th level arcane, divine, and BAB +16.
#4
zendu
Jan 01, 2009 23:41:56 taking a level of sublime chord and leveling SC spells instead of bard can push up your spells to something respectable.
#5
grifter730_dup
Jan 02, 2009 0:45:55
I believe most people focus on Bard, because of all the abuseability of bardic music and the fact that it makes the skill selection required to qualify exponentially cheaper.

Abuseability of Bardic Music, hmm.... I've been browsing through all sorts of bard threads and I haven't really seen any special abuses. What sort of stuff are you talking about?
#6
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 8:29:23 Optimizing Inspire Courage
Bard's Inspire Courage

If you want to get really nasty, and can figure out a way to get it easy, Dragonfire Inspiration can have every member of your party adding 3-9d6 of damage to every attack. Even without Dragonfire Inspiration, twisting inspire courage and inspire greatness can be quite nasty, mathematically.
#7
rebel7284
Jan 02, 2009 9:11:17 You CAN just buy a ring of evasion. Items do qualify you for prestige classes.
#8
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 9:31:28 You can't (normally) at level 10, which is when you'll need it. It's over half the Wealth by level for level 10 and over 1/3rd for level 11. So unless you're stacking a bunch of cost reductions into it, or you have a caster in your party with evasion that can make it (which, you shouldn't since forge ring requires caster level 12), it isn't much help. Basically, that takes as much DM intervention as Divine Oracle would, if not more, or a LOT of luck on your part (in the treasure rolls) versus a much higher level encounter.
#9
grifter730_dup
Jan 02, 2009 12:21:58
You CAN just buy a ring of evasion. Items do qualify you for prestige classes.

Where does it say this in the books?

Regarding the abuseable Bardic Music, I thought you meant something other than buffing the party for some reason. The only melee person in our party is our druid's animal companion, and occasionally the druid himself as well as our healer cleric. Most of the time they're busy doing battlefield control and healing though, so Bardic Music buff isn't as big of a deal since it's a small party. Still, I'll take a look at those links again and double check.
#10
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 12:39:59 It's part of the infamous Page 16 rule (infamous because it's stupid, stupid because it means some PrC's self-disqualify themselves). Page 16 of Complete Warrior. At least, that's the only place I know for sure it's mentioned. I'm pretty sure it's also in at least one of the FAQs, but it's been a while. It may be in another place(s) as well.

Inspire courage isn't limited to melee. It's a + to attack on all attack rolls (including spell attacks), and + to damage on all weapon damage rolls (including ranged and natural weapons). It is certainly more useful in a large party (and downright broken with leadership), but it's still a significant boost even with only one or two people making attacks in a given round. Remember, it's as much as +8 or + 9 in the middle levels (9-13) if you optimize for it. If a +8 to attacks and damage for even just two party members at 10th level doesn't sound nigh unto broken to you (for that level), I'd like to see what you're used to.

Remember also, that it includes you in that. A power attacking/2hander bard is just sick for damage dealing capability.

Even if it's just you, the wild-shaped druid, and his AC taking advantage of the damage, that's still +24 damage per successful attack per round between the three of you. More if any of you abuse power attack to trade some of the + to hit for damage. Not a lot at high levels, but at 10, that isn't anything to shake a stick at. That's the equivalent of giving each of you +2d6 sneak attack (that actually works on every attack). It's also potentially adding 30% (over current) or more to the likelihood that each of you will hit. And it doesn't really cost you anything past the first combat round.

If you had a ray-casting wizard that used his familiar well, you'd be sitting even better, but that's besides the point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 grifter730_dup Jan 01, 2009 21:29:16	I've been looking up FL builds, and they almost always use a really low druid level progression. I'm not sure why, but it's making me question my build. Would a Rogue 2/Bard 1/Druid 7 qualify for FL? Granted, 13 ranks of perform might be hard to get in 1 go, but assuming that I can get that, is that a viable build? It ends up with lvl 9 druid spells, which I think is better than the buffs from Bardic Music and the knowledge from Bardic Knowledge. With Vest of Legends, Inspire Courage can be treated as a lvl 16 Bard, which is good enough. It's more of a druid than bard build, but it works, right?
#2 pithica Jan 01, 2009 23:22:08	If you play with LA Buyback (heck, even if you don't), Shadow Creature Template from Lords of Madness is a better source for Evasion than Rogue Two. It's a +2 LA template that not only grants evasion, but Fast Healing and a handful of other useful things (and admittedly, some crap, but you lose fewer caster levels this way). Likewise, Divine Oracle 2 is an option, if you can convince your DM that it counts as Evasion (it's actually BETTER than evasion). Everyone in my group has that as an accepted house-rule. Finally, there's spell dancer from Magic of Faerun. I personally never use this one because of the CRAZY CRAZY feat requirements, but if you can stomach the feats (or you were planning on taking them anyway), it's doable. That being said, assuming you can cover the perform skill, and the massive list of other skills at the same time, yes, you're build above would qualify. I believe most people focus on Bard, because of all the abuseability of bardic music and the fact that it makes the skill selection required to qualify exponentially cheaper. Assuming LA buyback and that Southern Magician works for your DM, I've always liked the following FL build (using Able Learner for skills)... Shadow Human, Bard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 4/Folchuchan Lyricist 10. It's simple and highly utilitarian. Druid/Bard 17 casting and 13th level bardic music (before Items), +17 BAB, a companion familiar, and Wildshape (of potentially 12th level druid, with items), evasion, fast healing, and some other stuff from the template. At low-levels, to be honest, the build bites the big one, but if your starting any time after 10, it isn't that bad, and by 20 you'll be feeling pretty solid.
#3 jameswilliamogle Jan 01, 2009 23:27:54	It all ends up being very close, and depends greatly on where the campaign begins and ends. A lot of the builds I remember end up w/ 9th level druidic casting, though... Rogue 2 / Bard 1 / Druid 7 does qualify in time. The skills are tough, as you mentioned. A lot of people dump the Rogue levels and take the Bind Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra feat from Magic of Incarnum to get the Evasion requirements. It also frees up 2 levels of spellcasting, as well. The skill requirements are much easier if you take Able Learner as a feat at 1st. So... Bard 1 / Druid 9 / FL 10 Able Learner, Bind Soulmeld, Open Least Chakra, then you have 5 feats free. You get 2 more spellcasting levels in. The Bardic casting sucks, though. Most of those other builds you mentioned use a lot of other options to boost up the arcane spellcasting. By delaying the casting on the Druid side by 2 levels, one can get 9th level arcane, divine, and BAB +16.
#4 zendu Jan 01, 2009 23:41:56	taking a level of sublime chord and leveling SC spells instead of bard can push up your spells to something respectable.
#5 grifter730_dup Jan 02, 2009 0:45:55	I believe most people focus on Bard, because of all the abuseability of bardic music and the fact that it makes the skill selection required to qualify exponentially cheaper. Abuseability of Bardic Music, hmm.... I've been browsing through all sorts of bard threads and I haven't really seen any special abuses. What sort of stuff are you talking about?
#6 pithica Jan 02, 2009 8:29:23	Optimizing Inspire Courage Bard's Inspire Courage If you want to get really nasty, and can figure out a way to get it easy, Dragonfire Inspiration can have every member of your party adding 3-9d6 of damage to every attack. Even without Dragonfire Inspiration, twisting inspire courage and inspire greatness can be quite nasty, mathematically.
#7 rebel7284 Jan 02, 2009 9:11:17	You CAN just buy a ring of evasion. Items do qualify you for prestige classes.
#8 pithica Jan 02, 2009 9:31:28	You can't (normally) at level 10, which is when you'll need it. It's over half the Wealth by level for level 10 and over 1/3rd for level 11. So unless you're stacking a bunch of cost reductions into it, or you have a caster in your party with evasion that can make it (which, you shouldn't since forge ring requires caster level 12), it isn't much help. Basically, that takes as much DM intervention as Divine Oracle would, if not more, or a LOT of luck on your part (in the treasure rolls) versus a much higher level encounter.
#9 grifter730_dup Jan 02, 2009 12:21:58	You CAN just buy a ring of evasion. Items do qualify you for prestige classes. Where does it say this in the books? Regarding the abuseable Bardic Music, I thought you meant something other than buffing the party for some reason. The only melee person in our party is our druid's animal companion, and occasionally the druid himself as well as our healer cleric. Most of the time they're busy doing battlefield control and healing though, so Bardic Music buff isn't as big of a deal since it's a small party. Still, I'll take a look at those links again and double check.
#10 pithica Jan 02, 2009 12:39:59	It's part of the infamous Page 16 rule (infamous because it's stupid, stupid because it means some PrC's self-disqualify themselves). Page 16 of Complete Warrior. At least, that's the only place I know for sure it's mentioned. I'm pretty sure it's also in at least one of the FAQs, but it's been a while. It may be in another place(s) as well. Inspire courage isn't limited to melee. It's a + to attack on all attack rolls (including spell attacks), and + to damage on all weapon damage rolls (including ranged and natural weapons). It is certainly more useful in a large party (and downright broken with leadership), but it's still a significant boost even with only one or two people making attacks in a given round. Remember, it's as much as +8 or + 9 in the middle levels (9-13) if you optimize for it. If a +8 to attacks and damage for even just two party members at 10th level doesn't sound nigh unto broken to you (for that level), I'd like to see what you're used to. Remember also, that it includes you in that. A power attacking/2hander bard is just sick for damage dealing capability. Even if it's just you, the wild-shaped druid, and his AC taking advantage of the damage, that's still +24 damage per successful attack per round between the three of you. More if any of you abuse power attack to trade some of the + to hit for damage. Not a lot at high levels, but at 10, that isn't anything to shake a stick at. That's the equivalent of giving each of you +2d6 sneak attack (that actually works on every attack). It's also potentially adding 30% (over current) or more to the likelihood that each of you will hit. And it doesn't really cost you anything past the first combat round. If you had a ray-casting wizard that used his familiar well, you'd be sitting even better, but that's besides the point.