I've kept pretty silent on this for months now - but I think I'll open the can of worms now.
There are basically 3 levels of specialization you can take with a wizard:
Generalist
Forbidden Schools: None
Spells per day: As per PHB + bonus spells for high INT score
Bonus spells: None
Specialist
Forbidden Schools: Pick 2 (one if you are a divination specialist)
Spells per day: As per PHB + bonus spells for high INT score
Bonus spells: 1 per spell level - must be from your chosen school
Focused Specialist (Alternate class feature from Complete Mage)
Forbidden Schools: Pick 3 (2 if you are a divination focused specialist)
Spells per day: As per PHB MINUS ONE + bonus spells for high INT score
Bonus spells: 3 per spell level - must be from your chosen school
What you've probably heard: Generalist or Diviner is your best choice. The Generalist maintains maximum versitility, while the diviner has near maximum versitility while getting the bonus spell per spell level.
What you've also probably heard: Specializing in other schools is OK, but probably not your best choice since losing two schools of magic seriously cramps your style. Focused specialist is a terrible choice you should never take since you are giving way too much up for what you get.
This all sounds like great advice. One thing we know is that versitility is good, and can often be linked directly with the effectiveness of a character.
However, I've found in actual play - the advice falls flat. I've now had opportunity to play all 3 levels of specialization (most more than once) and have found something interesting - Focused Specialists are very good. Specialist Wizards are pretty good. Generalist wizards are OK but not as good as either other option.
Now that I've said pure heresy - allow me the opportunity to explain before you respond...I will move through the various Pro's and Con's of specialization and Focused Specialization. Cons first.Versitility
We've discussed conventional wisdom - but lets really look at this for a second. There is no arguing that the less schools you have available to you - the potential of your versitility will drop. I will explain "potential" later on.
Generally, the "best" school to drop is considered to be Evocation. Reason for this is because the best effects of Evocation can be copied by other schools or feats. Blasting and battlefield control spells are available through conjuration, and the greater shadow evocation spell or the craft contingency feat will allow for contingent spells. How much versitility have we lost by not having Evocation on the list? Not much.
The 2nd best school to drop? Usually Enchantment is named. Now enchantment is a lot of peoples personal favorite. After all - how many schools have so many spells that make the opponent work for you? However, in the end the draw is lots of Save or Lose spells that target Will. Lots of other schools have Save or Lose spells that target Will - and many to not have the restriction enchantment spells do of needing an opponent that is not immune to compulsion effects.
The 3rd best school to drop? This is usually a toss up between Abjuration and Necromancy. Lets look at both.
Necromancy is absolutely filled with debuffs. Ray of Enfeeblement (no save), Enervation (no save), Bestow curse. I can find spells with similar effects to RoE and BC - but Enervation is hard to duplicate. Giving up Necromancy will significantly reduce your access to no save debuffs.
Abjuration is your protective school. There are ways through Conjuration or Transmutation to protect yourself - but the key missing spells are Protection from X and Dispel Magic. There's just no substitute. Giving up Abjuration will make me a non-counterspeller and make me vulnerable to outsider controls and summons.
So what do you do? Well, I would suggest if you go focused Specialist to dump Evocation, Enchantment and either Necromancy or Abjuration.
Fact is that the loss of Necromancy or Abjuration will hurt a bit - but not as much as you think.
Lamenting the loss of Protection from X? Guess what - it shows up on the Cleric list too - at the same level. Get him a wand. (or your party rogue, warlock or anyone else with UMD) - problem solved. This fix costs you 750gp.
How about Dispel Magic? Guess what - it shows up on the Cleric spell list too - also the Bard's, and also the Druid. The Warlock gets his own version of this too. Someone else in your party can fill this need.
How about those necromancy "no save" debuffs? Guess what - "no save" debuffs are combat spells. You have other combat spells that don't provide a save. Memorize them instead, you keep your versitility. The spells can't be effectively duplicated from other schools - but they can be replaced.
So necromancy/abjuration - you can live without either one - just take your pick of your least favorite of the two. Yes it is a disadvantage - but there is a ton of versitility in just one school of magic - you get the 5 most versitle.
Besides - the "versitility" of the generalist is not all it cracked up to be - I'll get into this later...
Memorizations
The Specialist wizard MUST memorize one spell of his chosen school. A focused Specialist MUST memorize 3 spells of his chosen school.
The key to a decent specialist/focused specialist: In order for the specialization to be optimal - you want to find at least 1 spell in the chosen school of each level you would like to have memorized on a normal day. In order for Focused Specialization to be optimal - you would need to find 3 spells.
There was a time this wasn't very easy for any school. However - every splatbook that had more spells made this easier and easier. Now there are a few schools that are sweet for Focused Specialist.
Lets look at the schools:
Abjuration: Not easy - how many different ways to cast Protection from X, Energy resistance, and Dispelling did you need at one time? For a regular specialist this is difficult - but not terrible. For a Focused Specialist this is just terrible.
Divination: Also not easy. Remember this is the school where you keep one extra school known - and it's easy to see why. Divination spells have use - but how many different ways to look into the other room are going to be of benifit to you. For a regular specialist this is difficult - but not terrible. For a Focused Specialist it is.
Evocation:The hard part with this is not coming up with spells of each level to cast (well - it is a bit), but picking which schools to drop - since this is normally choice #1. You can do quite a bit with force effects - but dropping schools just got a lot more painful. For a regular specialist this is So-So. For a Focused specialist - you will find life tough.
Enchantment: Same problem as with Evocation. With the Beguiler being such a strong option for Enchantment Specialists - maybe you should consider that option. Lots of things are immune to Enchantment - which is going to be a consistant problem for an enchantment specialist. For a regular specialist this is So-So. For a Focused Specialist - just play a Beguiler.
Necromancy: The biggest problem here is that the necromancy list is small. For a regular specialist though - a single spell per level shouldn't be too hard. A Necromancy specialist isn't a bad option. For a Focused specialist - the lack of versitility in the necromancy school will be a hard pill to swallow.
Transmutation: We just turned a corner. Take a look at the versitility of Transmuation in the PHB alone. We have the polymorph spells (polymorph is HUGELY versitle), we have self-buffing (Fly, Alter Self, Attribute Enhancement), we have Party buffs (Haste, Enlarge spells), we have Save or Lose (Baleful Polymorph, Disintigrate) and more. I can easily find a spell per level in the PHB I would want at any time. If you add the splatbooks - I can easily find 3. This is a Focused Specialist option that maintains versitility.
Illusion: Illusion is a special case. What can't you do with illusion? - the answer is whatever you can't think of. If you like playing illusionists - you are probably used to casting LOTS of these. In this case - picking 3 illusion spells per level isn't too much - it's just a start.
Conjuration: Here it is. This school is the epitome of versitility. Want save or lose targeting Ref? Want Save or lose targeting Will? Want save or lose targeting Fort? Want Debuffs? Want battlefield control? Want protective spells? Want transportation spells? Want to blast? It's all here - and more. Conjuration has gotten nothing but love in the splatbooks too - so the list grows and grows.
Spells per Day:
Here's what you've probably heard: Don't worry about spell castings per day. All wizards start with scribe scroll, plus with Wands, Staves, and Pearls of Power there are endless ways to get extra castings per day.
So lets look at spells per day Before all that extra stuff comes into play, then we'll get into that - as well as the supposed versitility of generalists:
Note: I'll pretty much ignore level 0 spells for here on. Level 0 spells are OK for minor utility - but the power spread between level 0 and level 1 is pretty significant.
Int is hard to speculate. I figure 18 is pretty standard for level 1 - and items and standard 4 level raises will target INT as priority #1 as leveling occurs.
Lets look at a middle of the road level, Level 9. By this point if your Wizard isn't tough - then you've made a bad choice. You should be either the most powerful character in your party or very close to it by now.
22 is a decent estimate of INT at this point (2 increases and +2 enhancement item - value 4,000 gp)
Lets break this down.
Generalist Wizard castings/day:
Level 1: 6
Level 2: 6
Level 3: 4
Level 4: 3
Level 5: 2
Specialist Wizard castings/day:
Level 1: 7
Level 2: 7
Level 3: 5
Level 4: 4
Level 5: 3
Focused Specialist Wizard castings/day:
Level 1: 8
Level 2: 8
Level 3: 6
Level 4: 5
Level 5: 4
So lets consider the average day. Wake up and do some hr/level casting (Mage armors, and the like) - lets say 3 spells total. Could be more, could be less - just using 3 as an example.
We want to save some for non-combat utility need (rope tricks/teleports etc). Probably 5 is a decent guess. Once again - you may want more, you may want less (probably not much less), but 5 is good enough for the example.
So - now for encounters. How many spells does each wizard have?
Well first - how many encounters do you have per day. DMG says 4 is the standard - but lets face it, usually you don't really know. Sometimes you have some say in the matter - other times you don't. However, DMG says 4 is the standard - so we'll use that for our exercise.
The Generalist has just over 3 spells per encounter. If he's using Celerity or Spell Matrix - even less. He will undoubtedly run out. Even if every spell he memorized is the right one. Also - over 57% of those spells are level 1 or 2 spells!
The Specialist is in better shape. He's got just over 4 per encounter. He will probably run out too - but not as quickly. Furthermore - a higher percentage of the spells he's casting are upper level spells. Still, close to 54% are still of the first two levels.
The Focused Specialist is in the best shape - but by how much? He's got nearly 6 per encounter. He can probably cast every round in every combat without running out (unless there is a greater than average number of encounters). Furthermore - He's got DOUBLE (yes - thats a 100% increase) of his highest level spell (level 5) over the generalist. Still over half the spells he cast are levels 1 or 2, but just over half.
Finally - the Focused specialist is the ONLY choice that would actually get to cast his best level spell in every encounter.
Difference in total castings between the Generalist and Focused Specialist: The Focused Specialist offers a 52% increase in daily spells at this level.
Difference in total castings of the upper level spells (3 through 5) between the Generalist and the Focused Specialist: The focused specialist is offering a 67% increase in the casting of the most potent spells.
Difference in total castings of level 5 spells between the Generalist and Focused Specialist: The focused specialist gets a 100% increase
So - now the question is - do wands/pearls of power/staves make up the difference?
Magic Items:
To stay consistant lets continue looking at level 9.
First Reality: Every time your wizard uses a Scroll, Wand or Staff - he's made himself less powerful forever.
No kidding. Now in perspective - casting a spell off a 1st level wand or scroll is almost non-existant in terms of cost - the higher the spell level - the greater the cost to you.
Look at it this way. Lets say you get pretty much average loot. According to the DMG you can expect your 9th level wizard to have somewhere near 36,000 gp.
So lets say your Generalist wizard decides to pick up a few scrolls to make up the difference in castings/day against a focused specialist:
He goes on a 4 day adventure - the cost of the scrolls: 19,000 gp. So you just blew over half your loot.
Where would the Focused Specialist be? If you said 19,000 gp richer - you would be correct.
Guess what happens with the next 4 day adventure? How about the next? Pretty soon the scrolls are unaffordable. Even if you are scribing your own (lets not even get into XP loss with that)
The problem with this fix is that it works in short term - but it's just not sustainable.
What about Pearls of Power? Just 2 of each level you can cast would make up the difference, and they recharge daily. The cost? 110,000 gp.
No kidding - 110,000 gp! This fix would be sustainable if it was affordable in the first place - it's not. Not even close.
So what are the fixes that really happen?
The fixes that really happen are this:
Reserve Feats: These are wonderful. They give the caster something to do in the round they feel they cannot afford to cast a spell. The effects of Reserve feats are pretty much always worse than actually casting a spell - but they are significantly better than pulling out the crossbow. The effects of a reserve feat have little versitility as well.
First Level Spells: The cost of scrolls, wands, and pearls of power increase exponentially by level. Therefore - if you are content slinging endless first level spells - you can do so at relatively little cost. A 1st level pearl of power is 1,000 gp. A first level scroll is 25 gp, a first level wand is a mere 750 gp.
So the question ends up being: Which is better - a first level spell from any school you want, or a 5th level spell from your specialist school? I think in almost all cases - the latter is true.
Putting it all together:
As promised I will now share why I referred to the versitility of the Generalist as "potential".
A Generalist wizard of 9th level as shown above will have 2 5th level spells. How many schools can he have represented maximum in those two spells? The answer is two.
The Focused Specialist wizard of 9th level as shown above will have 4 5th level spells. How many schools can he have represented maximum in those 4 spells? The answer is two.
Seems to me the Generalist wizard hasn't shown any greater versitility at all. Yes those two spells can be from any school you have represented in your spellbook (another limited resource that skews things even further) - but will those 2 spells represent better versitility than 4 spells chosen from 2 of the best schools? I doubt it - in actuality - probably less.
Allow me to provide an example here. Lets look at a 9th level Conjuration Focused Specialist. His forbidden Schools are Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy. His 5th level spells memorized: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone and Shadow Evocation. That's a core only list.
Challenge: Show me a Generalist list of 2 5th level spells that has more versitility.
How about 4th level spells? The Generalist wizard will have 3. How many schools can he have represented in those 3 memorizations? Well - 3.
The Focused Specialist will have 5 4th level spells. The maximum number of schools that he can have represented in those 5 memorizations? Well - 3.
So what would the Focused Specialists 4th level spells be? Well - how about Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Summon Monster IV, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph.
Challenge: Show me a list of 3 4th level spells that show more versitility than that.
Now, since we've determined that the supply of 4th and 5th level scrolls and pearls of power is actually pretty slim - the Generalist ends up showing no more versitility on his memorization list than the Focused Specialist.
That's what I mean by "Potential versitility". The generalist has the potential to cast his best spells from any school - but his memorizations limit how many he can have at a time. The potential doesn't end up spilling over into actual gameplay. In the end - the Generalist will have 2-3 spells of his highest level available at any time - meaning at least 5 schools will NOT be represented in his highest level spell slots.
Likelyhood that all 8 schools are represented in his top 2 spell slots - very unlikely. At most levels, impossible. Once you get down in spell slots - it becomes possible over the entire list - but many schools only represented in the lower levels.
Yes, he may have a greater variety of 1st level spells to cast - but the Focused Specialist is casting a lot less of those anyways - he has higher level spells to cast. Every round - every encounter.
The benifits of Focused Specialist are significant. Not only is the increase in castings/day significant - the biggest gains are in the upper level spells.
So the final question is this: These are all hypotheticals and involve speculation of encounters/day, Int scores etc. How does this play out in reality?
The answer -
I've played Wizard Generalists, Wizard Specialists, and multiple Wizard Focused Specialists.
This really plays out...no kidding. I'm no noob - I've been playing this game 25+ years and had a love affair with wizards the whole time - and Focused Specialists are a good option - despite what you may have heard to the contrary.
Oh, and a 9th level Wizard w/ more diversity on a 5th level spell: Alacratious Congitation. Or, that feat from Exemplars from Evil that does something similar (that essentially makes Wizards into spontaneous casters).
I must say that i would never drop abjuration. I find dropping enchantment, necromancy or illusion a pain, but it doesn't hurt as much as losing dispel magic, one of the most potent series of spells in the whole game. Making wands/staffs out of this is expensive (since they are CL dependant).
I'm currently playing a 9th level Gnome Focused Illusionist ---> Shadowcraft Mage with conjuration, enchantment and evocation prohibited as my prohibited schools. To tell the truth the first few levels were somewhat brutal but as of 7th level when Shadow Conjuration was picked up life has become much easier. So many spells per day with tons of diversity. I'm loving it.
lately i was considering a weird kind of ultimate magus, with changeling as a race and the alternative specialization along with focused specialist. That's a whooping 4 schools to drop, but i guess i could give up evocation, enchantment, illusion and necromancy (since i get some key spells from beguiler).
Actually you couldn't give up Illusion as it's one of the Changeling Wizard's specialized schools. You were talking about the racial sub level from RoE, right? So, that would force you to pretty much give up enchantment, evocation, necromancy, and either conjuration or abjuration. The school loss would be tough but probably a really interesting character to play.
Actually you couldn't give up Illusion as it's one of the Changeling Wizard's specialized schools. You were talking about the racial sub level from RoE, right? So, that would force you to pretty much give up enchantment, evocation, necromancy, and either conjuration or abjuration. The school loss would be tough but probably a really interesting character to play.
whoops!
you can't possibly drop conjuration. Or abjuration, that means no dispel, prismatic, protection and dismissal/banishment. Damn it's difficult :P
Basically, no matter how many spells/day your focussed specialist gets, a Sorcerer will have more given the same casting stat. The obvious exception (and you've chosen your example well to illustrate it) being at odd levels. A ninth level sorcerer with a 22 cha will have 5 4th level spells/day, and know 2. The maximum number of schools represented? 2. One fewer than the focussed specialist. The focussed specialist -can- have 5 -different- spells prepared (3 from his specialist school), but if he does, he'd best need each of them, and not more than once each. By your analysis, we've established that pearls of power for this level of spell aren't practical at this level.
Where your wizard wins is in 5th level spells. The sorcerer doesn't have any yet. That puts the focussed specialist 4 5th level spells up on the sorcerer. And it -is- very hard for the sorcerer to make up this discrepancy. Just having 4 more spells/day is impressive. The fact that they're a level higher than the sorc can even cast makes it ungodly. But let's look at it again: Unless you have fewer than 5 spells that were redundant at lower level, or your 5th level spells can suffice in place of spells you didn't have enough of in your lower-level slots, then you don't -really- have more spells useful per day.
"But wait! The sorcerer has to KNOW the spells, so he won't have useful ones, either!" is the common reply. And it's true, the sorcerer -does- have to know the proper spell, because unlike the wizard, he doesn't have the luxury of even changing his spelllist tomorrow, let alone today. However, the sorcerer also only needs -one- spell known at each level that is useful in presented situations; he can cast the useful spell as many times as he has slots, and if others weren't as useful today, so be it. The wizard's effective slots/day are greatly reduced by their (and their players') prescience. Generically useful spells can only carry you so far; if the generically useful spell for a given situation is needed more than once, you'd best have those pearls of power ready, because you needed the -other- generically useful spells in case of other situations.
*cough*
Anyway. That's generic to the old sorc/wiz debate. Nobody really claims sorcerers are more powerful than wizards (largely due to the combination of abilities that give back -some- of the spontaneous versatility to the wizard and the fact prepped casters get a spell level one level sooner than do spontcasters), but I have to take exception when specialists are brought up. You're giving up, as a specialist, one of the biggest things to recommend a wizard over a sorcerer, to get almost as many spells/day as a sorcerer has.
This problem becomes worse with the Focussed Specialist, who has as many spells/day as the sorc has slots (at least at even levels). On paper, the Focussed Specialist wins at odd levels. Equivalent spells/day of the sorc's highest level spells, and 4-5 spells of a spell level the sorc just doesn't get. But what has he given up? Let's assume he's not a diviner. He's given up *3* schools of magic. Sure, Conjuration can mimic some of them very well, but it's still no replacement. And it's not just the same old argument about prepared casters not having the right spell -today-; when you've given up 3 schools, you won't have it tomorrow, next week, or TODAY in staff/wand/scroll form.
High-level spells in spell trigger/completion form are expensive. But never being able to use them is moreso. The sorcerer gives up versatility of knowledge for immediate versatility of spontcasting. The Focussed Specialist gives up versatility of -ability- for increased numbers of less-than-versatile prepared slots, but does at least retain higher level spells. So he half-wins at odd levels. But honestly, if I'm going to limit my spells known, I'd rather not cut 3 whole schools out of my ability to use wands/staves/scrolls in case my party needs them. I'd rather those extra slots/day be fully useful, as long as even -one- of the spells I know at that level is useful, rather than hoping I didn't guess wrong and prepare too many of the one Conjuration spell and not enough of the Transmutation one I need. I'd rather be a sorcerer than a Focused Specialist, even if I might see why a Specialist or Generalist is better than a sorcerer in many circumstances.
Of course, there's still the last point: Your party cleric can make up for all the spells that the focussed specialist just can't cast; most of the best ones will be on his list, and he can have a wand/scroll/staff for the rarer ones.
But really, if that's your argument... "Play a Druid."
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P.S. One -good- use for a Focussed Specialist might be Ultimate Magus. Sorc/FSpecialist going into that class can be built to have all the spells he gives up on his FSpec. side on his sorc side. Or at least, all the really useful ones. And just -having- sorc puts all those spell trigger/completion items back into his hands. So there is, perhaps, our best solution, and a valid use for the Focussed Specialist that doesn't beg the question of "Why not a sorc?"
One thing though; it all assumes a fast-paced 'get there once, finish the area, move on' play style. A generalist might have potential that goes untapped if they don't have the right spells prepared at the right time, but when a problem is really worth solving and you aren't in a rush, they can always come back with exactly the right spell for a situation. Depends on your game, I guess; more time to plan and advance information at your disposal means leaning more towards a generalist, more fast-paced action leans towards the specialist.
whoops!
you can't possibly drop conjuration. Or abjuration, that means no dispel, prismatic, protection and dismissal/banishment. Damn it's difficult :P
Beguiler gets Dispels too, though. The rest is useful, but relatively circumstantial.
Also, without abjuration you can't cast Magic Circle against X, and that means you can't make good use of Planar Binding.
With the groups I used to play with, we never had 4 encounters per day. It was always less than that. So having a few more spell slots just didn't make up for the loss of multiple schools of magic.
With the group I've been playing with recently, we actually do have several encounters per in-game rest day, often 4 or more. I always use almost all of my power points with my psion, which in terms of spell slots per day is about the same as a generalist wizard I think. If the psion bites the bullet, I might make a focused specialist just to try it out, perhaps a Sorc/FSpec/Ultimate Magus, or Focused Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage. :D
A very good analysis. However, you're missing one very glaring point: if you're going to give up versatility permanently - and you have to admit, you are, as you can't even use wands, scrolls, or staves, let alone decide that tomorrow you -will- in fact prepare that mage armor after all (having dropped Abjuration, as an example) - for more spells/day, why lock your spells/day into one casting each, or reduce your number of unique spells/day by preparing multiple copies of the same spell?
Mage armor is conjuration....
Not sure I agree on some of your points but in general interesting.
The biggest thing I disagree with is your treatment of Magic items:
1.) Temporary magic items: Making money as a wizard is trivial, therefore reducing your current wealth by using temporary items is not problematic, as long as the DM is amenable to you refilling your coffers via hired casting or spell tricks.
2.) Low level spells: While your high level spells are going to be the one-shot combat enders -outside of combat, most of your utility spells will remain low level (with the obvious exceptions of things like S.Monster & teleport).
I admit, that isn't important in every game, but it is another factor to consider aside from how many encounters per day your DM throws at you.
Also, aside from Ultimate Magus, Focused specialist benefits greatly from all the dual casting prestige classes (Arcane Hierophant, Mystic Theurge). Dropping Abjuration is a no-brainer if you can still cast all those spells on the divine side. That is also one of the big +s of Focused Specialist over Sorcerer, you spend less levels qualifying for your target prestige classes.
Something to point out is that generalists get the Elven racial sub level from RotW, bringing their spells/day up to the level of a non-focused specialist.
But you have to play an elf. I hate elves. :P
But you have to play an elf. I hate elves. :P
They may be tree-hugging pansies, but they sure make decent wizards (assuming you're a Grey/Sun Elf, of course).
They may be tree-hugging pansies, but they sure make decent wizards (assuming you're a Grey/Sun Elf, of course).
It's not the tree-hugging part that I dislike. It's mostly the 2 points of con. I also don't like the 99 subraces. They're like the Baskin Robbins of D&D. I agree that the ones with an Int bonus do make good wizards, though.
And that's neglecting scrolls. Scrolls are great. Mirror Image? I made some scrolls. Silent Image? Same. It's also with the "save five spell slots for utility spells". That's a LOT. I'd rather just leave a couple of spell slots open, if I'm worried about that, and fill them in 15 minutes when it's time.
"Drop Necromancy," you say. "There's other no-save spells." Well, sure, but they're not over-the-top debuffs like Empowered Ray of Exhaustion followed by Split Ray of Enfeeblement, or Empowered Split Ray Enervation. Oh, hey, what's this in the Spell Compendium? Avasculate... ouch, that's nasty.
The issue, also, isn't "can you think of three conjuration spells per level you want to have?" The issue is, wouldn't you like to have more than one or two non-conjuration spells memorized? Well, you can't.
If you're playing a Focused Specialist, you could go ahead and be a sorcerer. Your versatility will be about the same (fixed list vs. so many banned schools).
It's not the tree-hugging part that I dislike. It's mostly the 2 points of con. I also don't like the 99 subraces. They're like the Baskin Robbins of D&D.
Given back by Dragonborn of Bahamut, along with some other goodies.
Can't argue about their being too many Elf subraces though.
If you're playing a Focused Specialist, you could go ahead and be a sorcerer. Your versatility will be about the same (fixed list vs. so many banned schools).
After reading over everything, I have to agree with that ... unless there is some reason you want INT instead of CHA as your main stat (and can't be a generalist from UA).
Transmutation/Conjuration? Change the scene.
Illusion? They wouldn't know what hit 'em.
Evoker? Strike first and strike hard!
Divintaion? What don't you know?!
Also, it's not like being a sorcerer; You get to pick different spells, and I do.
The thing I can't get over is having to drop Abjuration, Illusion, or Necromancy. There's just too many good spells in those three schools.
That said. I agree with some of your comments, and been informed with some new ideas from your post, and out right disagree on some points, but over all; a well thought out and excellent post.
You should really have a comparison for Elf Generalist wizards (RoW), but your comparison doesn't not include Feats, Items, Race, and mostly sticks to core. Granted an Elf Generalist does have one up over normal wizards your comparison is applicable to "every" race and build, which allows your character to be versatile in areas other then spell selection.
I personally would never drop abjuration. Granted many of the spells you mentioned "CAN" be cast by other classes, doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare them yourself. Dispel magic alone is worth all of abjuration and worth it to be prepared for when "you" need to cast it. Not when the cleric is ready. Assuming the other 3 in your party are casters at all.
Also Focused Specialists do lack versitility and spell selection if you pick the "Wrong" schools. So it's more of a case of "Focused Specialists are really good, so long as you remeber that XXX XXX and XXX." Where as generalist wizards can correct any mistakes in 24 hours. You can't take back prohibited schools.
Before I ramble further, excellent post, in fact: It’s book marked.
For the record, I wouldn't be a generalist that isn't an elf. That sub level is awesome.
Yes it is awesome. However, 1 extra spell of your highest level doesn't completely change the scene. It makes an elven generalist somewhat more appealing, but not much more appealing. And personally, any race I picture wearing tights most of the time, I have a hard time playing.
A focused specialist is NOT able to be played like a generalist. It pretty much, as for playstyle, is a cross between a sorc and a wizard.
Another advantage of a focused specialist over a generalist is the extra room to put in metamagic spells and still put in many of the basics. For example, necromancy is greatly helped out by this, as the spell list is small you will need to make the most of it.
In short, a focused specialist isn't like a generalist that is expected to always have the right spell for the right job. Instead, a focused specialist is effective in the times where they don't have the perfect spell through the sheer number of spells they can pump out. In this, they are much like sorcs with a lot more variety in their spells known.
The point of this thread is that a focused specialist doesn't suck, like I've heard so many claim, if you pick the right school, think ahead, and want to play that sort of extremely focused wizard.
Yes it is awesome. However, 1 extra spell of your highest level doesn't completely change the scene. It makes an elven generalist somewhat more appealing, but not much more appealing. And personally, any race I picture wearing tights most of the time, I have a hard time playing.
A focused specialist is NOT able to be played like a generalist. It pretty much, as for playstyle, is a cross between a sorc and a wizard.
Another advantage of a focused specialist over a generalist is the extra room to put in metamagic spells and still put in many of the basics. For example, necromancy is greatly helped out by this, as the spell list is small you will need to make the most of it.
In short, a focused specialist isn't like a generalist that is expected to always have the right spell for the right job. Instead, a focused specialist is effective in the times where they don't have the perfect spell through the sheer number of spells they can pump out. In this, they are much like sorcs with a lot more variety in their spells known.
The point of this thread is that a focused specialist doesn't suck, like I've heard so many claim, if you pick the right school, think ahead, and want to play that sort of extremely focused wizard.
I was just noting that I'd play a diviner over a generalist non elf. I will probably never be able to give up necromancy or abjuration.
I will probably never be able to give up necromancy or abjuration.
Yeah, me neither as necromancy forms a great synthesis with other schools and trying to get past SR with wands is extremely hard (assuming the focused specialist has the umd or another class that allows them to even use wands). I probably would give up illusion as those are the spells I tend to cast the least. Being without at least one dispell seems like asking for trouble.
Yeah, me neither as necromancy forms a great synthesis with other schools and trying to get past SR with wands is extremely hard (assuming the focused specialist has the umd or another class that allows them to even use wands). I probably would give up illusion as those are the spells I tend to cast the least. Being without at least one dispell seems like asking for trouble.
Illusion is handy too...
Color spray, blur, invisibility, displacement, greater invisibility, seeming, shadow walk, greater shadow evocation, similacrum, shades.
Still, I think the way strong characters are designed tends to favor Focused Specialists. If we assume that each school of magic is equally good to begin with, but 50% better in certain situations, and every 2 levels a class feature or feat is acquired that enhances all spells to a moderate degree, or one school to a high degree, and all these things stack, then how long will it take for the school of magic you're focusing on to overpower all other schools in all situations ?
The best example I can think of is the Shadowcraft Mage; Your illusion spells will be so strong and so versatile I can't imagine anyone wanting to prepare more than one or two non-illusion spells.
Another good example is any type of gish - You're going to lean heavily towards a certain style of spell anyways (usually buffs and utility) and often times you don't really care what spell is in a slot as you'll be burning many of them for Arcane Strike and possibly Arcane Wrath, and Mystic Phoenix Stance (Arcane Wrath and Strike will generally do several times the damage of the Evocation spell you could have cast with those two slots).
If we assume that each school of magic is equally good to begin with, but 50% better in certain situations, and every 2 levels a class feature or feat is acquired that enhances all spells to a moderate degree, or one school to a high degree, and all these things stack, then how long will it take for the school of magic you're focusing on to overpower all other schools in all situations ?
Assumptions are great for optimizing...
(poster's comments have been abbreviated - if you feel I misrepresented you - let me know and I'll do an edit - and my apologies!)
Segev_Stormlord points out that the FS will not be able to use spell trigger items from the prohibited schools.
He's right - that is a "con" to taking that route. However - I would challenge you to look at your most recent wizards' character sheet and see how many different schools are represented in those spell trigger items. If he's not high level - probably not that many. Can you find 3 missing schools? That's all you need.
He also points out that Sorcerers get more spells/level at all levels except odd ones.
Not true actually. They get more spells then Specialist wizards - but focused specialist wizards get the same number in the even levels and more in the odd levels (so have more spells overall). This is because they have access to higher level spells then Sorcerers at those odd levels.
He also points out that a generalist can wake up tomorrow and prepare the mage armor he didn't prepare today - but a FS without abjuration can't.
As pointed out - Mage Armor is conjuration. Now I would normally ignore this, as you could have used a different example (say Shield) - but I think it's important to point out that Mage Armor is protective magic - so you would think it's abjuration - but it's conjuration (I think even designers made this mistake with the Abjurant Champion). Want natural armor? Well - that will be a Transmutation spell. The thing is that lots of spells have similar spells in other schools. Can't memorize shield? Well - memorize mage armor instead for a similar effect....
R4za points out that some of the arguments are worded in my favor.
Absolutely. This was an essay specifically made to support my theory. I purposely worded it to support my theory. It's intended to provoke discussion and challenge current "accepted truths", not replace them. Read with a grain of salt. I believe Focused Specialist to be a viable option - but not the only option.
Snizor points out that an Elf substitution level from RoTW gives the same benifits of specialization to a generalist.
Not true. That substitution level gives you 1 more spell memorization. Specialization gives you one more spell memorization for every level of spell you can cast. Now it's nice that the ability gives that memorization in your highest level spell - but also remember that substitution levels are never free.
Logicninja heavily disagrees with me. (I knew you would). We've had this debate before on another thread involving whether a 6th level conjurer should consider FS.
He also points out that it's not whether you can think of three conjuration spells you want to memorize, but can you think of more than 2 non-conjuration spells you want to memorize.
I did examine this argument in the post. Now I kept the argument to upper level spells - and did not deal with if you didn't want to memorize any conjuration spells at a particular level...I encourage everyone to look at the lists carefully before you make a decision about FS.
He points out you should consider playing a Sorcerer if you want that many castings/day.
I would suggest that FS and Sorcerer are two entirely different playing experiences.
FS gets:
Spell level increase at same levels as other wizards, Prepared Casting, Scribe Scroll, Int based casting, Bonus feats every 5 levels, and more spells/day, Wizard skill list, easier PrC qualification, spellbook based casting with a potential of - well, many hundreds of spells in it - reality - probably about as many as any other wizard.
Sorcerer gets spontaneous casting off a limited list. I would suggest FS has more in common with other wizards than sorcerers.
He points out that Scrolls can make up for those lost castings.
I dealt with this in the post - and he didn't really address what I wrote - if he disagrees with that - hopefully he will address it specifically so I can respond.
He points out that Necromancy spells are hard to replace.
I agree - I did aknowledge that. If Necromancy is a school you plan to memorize so many spells from (sounds like RoEx, ER, RoEn, Avasculate). Then you should drop a different school for sure. You've just mentioned a good percentage of a generalists total castings per day. Certainly more than a fifth. If you are going to have all those spells prepared - you can certainly find 3 other schools to drop.
He points out that for 5th level spells you may want to memorize Overland Flight, Greater Blink and Baleful Polymorph - and a FS conjurer can't.
True - I assume you are talking to my 9th level example? Guess what - the generalist can't either - since that's more spells then he could cast. He could memorize 2 and he's done.
The FS on the other hand -
Baleful Polymorph - Save or lose Fort Based - Coudkill will fill a similar niche
Greater Blink - I have Abrubt Jaunt - this is redundant for me, but I'll stack up with a Greater Dimension Door anyways for versitility of use.
Overland Flight - in a few levels I'll do Phantom Steed instead - for now I'll memorize this.
And I'll raise you a teleport spell on top of those 3. Which one of those 3 is your Generalist not going to memorize?
Archrpwr and Zarzak agree with Logicninja
Can't fly in the face of conventional wisdom without conventional wisdom biting back.
CantripN points out that Sorcerers don't get to pick different spells to memorize, and that a FS needs to be played differently than a generalist.
Thanks for the backup!
A Few Different Posters suggest illusion might be easier to drop then Abjuration.
Perhaps - as long as you take Craft Contingency that could work out decently as well. Illusion can be difficult to duplicate - but lots of wizards don't use it much irregardless.
However - although Dispel magic is "one of the most powerful spells in the game" is there any reason you don't think the Cleric/Druid/Bard/Warlock can handle the dispel magic job? Their caster level should be as good as yours...
Planar Binding can still be done as well. Get the Cleric to draw you up a Magic Circle vs X. Nowhere in Planar Binding does it imply you must cast this spell yourself.
Also - I do appreciate the feedback from everyone - including those who disagree, this is intended to provoke discussion and consideration - not be blindly accepted. Thanks to all who have responded thus far!
Also - if you made a comment you would have liked me to address and I didn't - let me know - either with another reply or a PM - I probably just missed it.
Illusion is handy too...
Color spray, blur, invisibility, displacement, greater invisibility, seeming, shadow walk, greater shadow evocation, similacrum, shades.
You forgot Mirror Image. That spell by itself is enough to make me not want to drop that school.
Silent Image is also extremely useful, even at the later levels of the game, since it is only a 1st level spell. It also works great in scrolls, as the duration is Concentration, and against alot of things you make with it, they won't even get a save at all.
As long as there is a cleric in the party, I'd probably drop Abjuration before either Necromancy or Illusion.
Assumptions are great for optimizing...
Tell me it isn't true in the two examples I've given.
Tell me it isn't true in the two examples I've given.
Shadowcraft mage is an exception among spellcasters.
Gishes are warriors first and spellcasters second. Of course they won't miss another school if it means more transmutation.
The point is that the strongest Wizard builds don't need to prepare a great diversity of spells, and the strongest Wizard builds tend to be stronger with Focused Specialist.
Thus, in practice Focused Specialist is stronger than generalist.
And who says gish are spellcasters second? They've got better defense, more versatility, and greater endurance than a 'full caster'. For that they give up a spellcasting level and are restricted to largely passive prestige class features.
As perhaps the strongest wizard build your average DM will allow in a game, I think it's a pretty notable exception.
The point is that the strongest Wizard builds don't need to prepare a great diversity of spells, and the strongest Wizard builds tend to be stronger with Focused Specialist.
Thus, in practice Focused Specialist is stronger than generalist.
Bull. Incantatrix and initiate both hate to be focused specialists. Incantatrix burns a school already, so it goes generalist. Initiate goes abjurer banning enchantment and evocation to have master specialist pick up the prereqs for initiate. Out of the three powerhouses only one has any reason to burn necromancy. SCM is not the most powerful by anymeans. It is top tier, but I'd be hard pressed to declare one of the big three the most powerful.
Note that these are very specific exceptions, but I would think FS gets a lot stronger (with respect to comparing it with generalization) in Gestalt, or if the character intends to be a Dweomerkeeper or MotAO.
Gestalt spellcaster//spellcaster should never ever run out of spells.
I think everybody has their place, from Generalist to Specialist to FS to... Sorcerer !
I tend to go for specialists myself, because Generalist is too low on slots and I can rarely find a 3rd school I'm willing to drop. But that's at mid-levels. At high levels, you're better off having not dropped any school (sure you can use Greater Shadow Evocation for Contingency, but that's a much higher spell slot) ; at low levels, I can see FS would rock.
I'll also note that I generally find myself preparing more Transmutation than Conjuration spells, but I suppose it depends on one's inclinations, buffing vs controlling. For me, the important schools are Trans > Conj > Illus in general (all three of them close by) ; but a specific character may specialize in Enchanment or Abjuration instead...
- #of encounters in a game
- range of encounters in a game
- Specific Build (Shadowcraft Mage being a great example)
If we have a game with 6 encounters per day, they are all combat, and you are playing a shadowcraft mage, it's pretty clear that focused specialist is a good choice.
If you are playing in a game with a large range of different types of challenges (combat control, traps, social, others that require divination, etc.) with 1-2 encounters pre day, a generalist would appear to fare better.
*Shrugs*
Best,
David
Nice thread !
I think everybody has their place, from Generalist to Specialist to FS to... Sorcerer !
I tend to go for specialists myself, because Generalist is too low on slots and I can rarely find a 3rd school I'm willing to drop. But that's at mid-levels. At high levels, you're better off having not dropped any school (sure you can use Greater Shadow Evocation for Contingency, but that's a much higher spell slot) ; at low levels, I can see FS would rock.
I'll also note that I generally find myself preparing more Transmutation than Conjuration spells, but I suppose it depends on one's inclinations, buffing vs controlling. For me, the important schools are Trans > Conj > Illus in general (all three of them close by) ; but a specific character may specialize in Enchanment or Abjuration instead...
It really does appear to be partly related to:
- #of encounters in a game
- range of encounters in a game
- Specific Build (Shadowcraft Mage being a great example)
If we have a game with 6 encounters per day, they are all combat, and you are playing a shadowcraft mage, it's pretty clear that focused specialist is a good choice.
If you are playing in a game with a large range of different types of challenges (combat control, traps, social, others that require divination, etc.) with 1-2 encounters pre day, a generalist would appear to fare better.
*Shrugs*
Best,
David
I agree with all of this. Focused speciallist is not pure suck or pure awesomesauce, but has it's uses.
IotSV is certainly quite powerful. If you have the correct counter spells their defenses are easily defeated, but this is rather unlikely. The main drawback I see is the level required to enter the class (9th, so you gain your best veil at 15th level) and your limited number of veils per day. If one type of attack is rendered useless by the veil, simply switch to another. This is somewhat of a problem once the IotSV gains the ability to create two veils, but that's at pretty high level. Their capstone ability is exceedingly powerful in certainly situations, better than most 9th level spells. If you're playing at around 15th level, the IotSV probably is just as powerful but the lower your level the weaker it gets.
Shadowcraft Mage is fantastic at any level mostly due to the inherently good nature of illusion spells and the massive DCs those spells will have. Once you pick up Master Specialist your DCs become even better, and at 9th/10th level you've got everything you need to succeed. Every evocation and conjuraton (creation) spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list (which is hundreds of spells) all the time, with all of your illusion DC increases, reality increases, and Arcane Thesis applying to every one of them. While the IotSV can be extremely difficult to kill once she has her warding up, the Shadowcraft Mage can probably just kill you in the surprise round, or create an illusion that makes it impossible for you to target him (which is arguably better than a warding).
That's hard to beat.
Opinion.
ORLY? I agree that SCM is top tier, but it by no means is strictly superior to incantatrix and initiate. SCM doesn't have a "not die" function and also lacks huge metamagic abuses. They each have their uses. There is a reason there is a top three rather than top one.
You're also showing some severe lack of understanding of the drawbacks of SCM. There are in fact drawbacks.
Will saves added to all spells? Our DCs are so high that anything short of a heavily multiclassed (with PC classes) NPC will fail on anything but a natural 20. Or we can use spells without saves.
The only significant drawback I see is the high feat investment required.
How about a Malconvoker? How many summoning spells will you be preparing with that?
Like what? Spell resistance? Most spells are already subject to it, and one of those few non-illusion spells we want to prepare can be used to almost completely negate it.
Will saves added to all spells? Our DCs are so high that anything short of a heavily multiclassed (with PC classes) NPC will fail on anything but a natural 20. Or we can use spells without saves.
The only significant drawback I see is the high feat investment required.
How about a Malconvoker? How many summoning spells will you be preparing with that?
Like the fact that your completely fail against golems, are really short on metamagic/buffs, need to be touching the ground, and want your enemies to save against your huge DCs. SCM is great, but by no means the end all be all of arcane might.
Edit: here's my point a bit more concise:
Not all spellcasters can be assumed to be SCMs. Therefore we have to aknowledge nongnome casters.
shadowcraft mages, Io7v and incantatrixes are all top notch.
The first one has some really scary spontaneous casting.
The second one is really hard to die and can protect himself without using spells.
The third one can even work without even casting spells and also be a concentration moster: standard action (standard concentration), move action (extraordinary concentration), sonorous hum for another one and familiar concentration for the fourth. You can even use the skill trick if you want to get another spell through.
Not sure if you can concentrate at 2 spells at once though.
It really does appear to be partly related to:
- #of encounters in a game
- range of encounters in a game
- Specific Build (Shadowcraft Mage being a great example)
If we have a game with 6 encounters per day, they are all combat, and you are playing a shadowcraft mage, it's pretty clear that focused specialist is a good choice.
If you are playing in a game with a large range of different types of challenges (combat control, traps, social, others that require divination, etc.) with 1-2 encounters pre day, a generalist would appear to fare better.
*Shrugs*
Best,
David
I think that that is a good way to put it.
I would also agree that Focused Specialist is powerful in early levels, but loses out in higher levels to more generalist builds. So level you are playing at is important too. (This is why Focused Specialist is awesome in E6).
My analysis assumes a 4 encounter per day average. Reduce that number and you will find the limitations of the Specialist, and then the Generalist dissapear - so that the FS has the cons - with no practical benifit.
If the encounters go the other way - the advantage of the FS will only spread so much. Eventually everyone will be out of spells - and relying on low level wands, scrolls or reserve feats - an even playing field.
The numbers are most impressive for the FS in the 4-6 encounter/day range. If this is average for your group - the math holds (or gets slightly better at 5 and 6).
Calishite D Evoker 10 / Elemental Savant 10
(Energy Affinity variant, Focused Specialist variant, Loss of Necromancy / Enchantment / Abjuration)
1,H Elemental Spellcasting, Bloodline of Fire (CL 4 w/ Fire spells)
3 Fiery Burst (CL 7 w/ Fire Spells)
5 Energy Substitution: Fire
6 Primitive Caster
9 Calishite Elementalist
10 Searing Spell
12 Quicken Spell
15 Spell Thematics
18 Practiced Spellcaster
Ring of Mystic Fire @ 8th
10-13 extra CL when using [Fire] spells, but has CL 4 w/ [Fire] spells at 1st (4d4 burning hands, 4d6 Kelgore's Fire Bolt, lesser Org of Fire 2d8: meh). w/ probably 5 spells per day, that could be a lot of fun, anyways. It loses 2 CL to Elemental Savant, but regains them w/ Practiced Spellcaster. The character should get Silent and Still spell metamagic rods, to better boost CL through Primitive Caster.
edit:
So what if all those DD spells have a cap? You still beat anythings SR. If I had to redo this, I'd get Twin, Empower, dropping Primitive Caster and Practiced Spellcaster. I'd also just go straight elementalist to 20th level, probably picking up spontanteous divination and a few domain granted powers (Fire, Earth). That'd leave 1 feat for Metamagic School Focus or Arcane Thesis, working out really nicely.
On the topic of banning schools, it doesn't pain me much to dump Abjuration. That's the Cleric's job, and he does it better. As for keeping the wizard alive, that's what Mage Armor, Alter Self (Troglodyte), Mirror Image, False Life, (Greater) Invisibility etc are for.
i agree.
shadowcraft mages, Io7v and incantatrixes are all top notch.
The first one has some really scary spontaneous casting.
The second one is really hard to die and can protect himself without using spells.
The third one can even work without even casting spells and also be a concentration moster: standard action (standard concentration), move action (extraordinary concentration), sonorous hum for another one and familiar concentration for the fourth. You can even use the skill trick if you want to get another spell through.
Not sure if you can concentrate at 2 spells at once though.
And Shadowcraft Mage works best when combined with Incantatrix...
And Shadowcraft Mage works best when combined with Incantatrix.
I don't fully understand this. Mind explaining how it is superior to shadowcrafter? I'm curious.
I don't fully understand this. Mind explaining how it is superior to shadowcrafter? I'm curious.
The primary abilities of the shadowcrafter give +20% reality to shadow conjurations/evocations. (the other abilities are relatively minor).
The Incantatrix gives a free +1 level spell (the 10th level ability gives a free level of metamagic - for heighten for example), which gives you both a +10% reality and the ability to mimic higher level spells. Right there we are much more than 1/2 way caught up.
The Incantatrix also can use instant metamagic to boost a spell with heighten *a lot*, basically giving a few extra extremely high-level slots - combined with residual metamagic, this is brutal. (You might not use it this way, but if you think of it as +80% reality to a 1st level spell slot a few times a day, then it makes it easier to compare to the bonus reality of the shadowcrafter). With this and the above item, the Incantatrix is roughly equal to the shadowcrafter.
The Incantatrix also gives a great many metamagic feats (4) - very nice for the extremely feat-starved Shadowcraft Mage.
In addition, the Incantatrix has all it's normal metamagic brokenness.
I agree with snizor, Incantatrix is better than Shadowcrafter for a shadowcraft mage.
Best,
David
P.S. I have in my signature what I think of as a "classic" shadowcraft mage. I wasn't trying to be creative, rather to just document a lot of the good thought that had come before.
Originally Posted by Roxlimn and Kreselak
"Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. LIkewise, being a combat wall is likewise not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that."
"Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better."
Shouldn't talk to sigs but can't resist. "Wall not hit back" ;)
explanation.
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
Shouldn't talk to sigs but can't resist. "Wall not hit back" ;)
:D
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
You're welcome.
How well (if at all) do Focused Specialists lend themselves to being part of a Gish build? Do the few lost casting levels hurt them proportionally more than other casters, since they get more out of each one, or less, since the more they get out of the ones they keep adds up to more anyway?
Transmutation:
good idea. You don't need evocation, enchantment, or necromancy (abjuration has buffs, and illusion has some good defensive spells).
Anything else:
not really worth it.
I'd say as long as it's transmutation go for it.
How well (if at all) do Focused Specialists lend themselves to being part of a Gish build? Do the few lost casting levels hurt them proportionally more than other casters, since they get more out of each one, or less, since the more they get out of the ones they keep adds up to more anyway?
I agree with Archerpwr, gish probably benefit the most from focused specialist. This is especially the case when the gish doesn't have very high DCs and thus is forced to focus on no save spells and buffs/utility.
I agree with Archerpwr, gish probably benefit the most from focused specialist. This is especially the case when the gish doesn't have very high DCs and thus is forced to focus on no save spells and buffs/utility.
Focused Specialist is a good choice for Gish builds since transmutation contains the majority of spells that you want.
However - I would not say they benifit "more" from focused specialist then non-gishes.
After all - who suffers more from running out of spells - Gishes or straight wizards? Who casts more spells, Gishes or straight wizards? The math of the mechanics is behind the latter.
Who runs out of spells sooner? A Wizard or a Gish? A Gish, obviously, especially with Arcane Strike.
Depends. Gishes can take spend fewer spells per encounter, or nova.
Reminds me why I prefer straight casters to Gishes. Just personal preference.
I'll grant with Arcane Strike a gish can run out of spells like water.
Reminds me why I prefer straight casters to Gishes. Just personal preference.
Can. Not will. Depends on the circumstances. Only very tough foes need arcane strike.
With that said, I'd like to disagree with two points from the initial post, and make an observation about the Elf Generalist substitution level:
1. Look at it this way. Lets say you get pretty much average loot. According to the DMG you can expect your 9th level wizard to have somewhere near 36,000 gp.
So lets say your Generalist wizard decides to pick up a few scrolls to make up the difference in castings/day against a focused specialist:
He goes on a 4 day adventure - the cost of the scrolls: 19,000 gp. So you just blew over half your loot.
In principle, this observation is accurate, but in practice, it's not quite this one-sided. The reason is that some percentage of your party's treasure is going to come in the form of magical scrolls/wands/etc. If you have the ability to use a particular scroll/wand/etc., then you've not only gotten full value out of that piece of treasure, but also saved yourself the expense of acquiring/crafting** it. While there are certainly spells that appear on multiple caster lists, and thus can still be used by a versatile enough party even if the primary arcane caster can't use the item, there are still circumstances where being a focused specialist will hurt you in treasure acquisition.
Let's use the 9th level example the OP uses:
You're a focused specialist with one of your banned schools being Evocation, and you finish a climactic battle. The main item you recover from the enemy is a wand of fireball.
At minimum caster level, you've just effectively 'lost' 5625 gp or so worth of treasure; barring an exotic combination of classes in your party, nobody else but you could use the wand, but you can't because it's in one of your prohibited schools. Your only real option is to sell the thing. The higher the caster level on the wand, the greater the effective loss of treasure value.
So that 19,000 gp worth of loot lost from scrolls? This one wand, if 10th caster level, makes up over half of that value. (And sure, you won't find a wand of fireball on every four-day adventure, but likewise, the wizard is unlikely to invest in 19,000 gp worth of scrolls prior to every four-day adventure as well.)
** - Note as well that the XP system awards greater XP for an encounter to lower-level party members, so 'losing' XP by creating a few low-cost magic items isn't actually that great a limitation, since you'll make up that XP quickly enough during the one or two encounters per level in which you are effectively 'behind' your party-mates in level.
2. That's what I mean by "Potential versitility". The generalist has the potential to cast his best spells from any school - but his memorizations limit how many he can have at a time. The potential doesn't end up spilling over into actual gameplay. In the end - the Generalist will have 2-3 spells of his highest level available at any time - meaning at least 5 schools will NOT be represented in his highest level spell slots.
While this is true, it's also reductive -- a generalist wizard doesn't need to have prepared a particular spell to have access to it; we've discussed scrolls, wands, and similar items. Other posters mention that generalist wizards can leave spell slots open at the start of the day and prepare a spell in that slot later with an investment of 15 minutes.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to use these two points to debunk the OP's thesis -- I happen to agree that Focused Specialist is a viable alternative to a traditional generalist wizard character, if you're willing to think in terms of the FS's strengths and weaknesses as an arcane caster and do your best to work with them.
Point regarding Elf Generalist:
It's pretty darned basic, but my favorite use of the bonus spell slot allowed by the Elf Generalist substitution level in Races of the Wild is to power a reserve feat; you get the benefit of the reserve feat at the maximum possible power for your level, and still get all of the spells that a non-Elf Generalist wizard would have.
(Of course, Elf Generalist also combos well with Collegiate Wizard, but that's starting to get off-topic, so I'll end the discussion here.)
--
Pauper
I think the Mystic Theurge could benefit from the focused specialist as well. With 2 spells more than a generalist wizard, that's a pretty amazing list of spells per day we've got here. He will reach the higher spell levels at a lower rate but the sheer amount of spells is vast! Did anyone try to optimize this in any way?
It's not really worth it. MT's are already drowning in more low level spells than they can cast. This still isn't as good having quicker access to high level spells
Solid thread, and excellent initial post: thought-provoking and challenging conventional wisdom -- it's these sort of posts that make it worth while to be a boards member.
Thank you!
In principle, this observation is accurate, but in practice, it's not quite this one-sided. The reason is that some percentage of your party's treasure is going to come in the form of magical scrolls/wands/etc. If you have the ability to use a particular scroll/wand/etc., then you've not only gotten full value out of that piece of treasure, but also saved yourself the expense of acquiring/crafting** it. While there are certainly spells that appear on multiple caster lists, and thus can still be used by a versatile enough party even if the primary arcane caster can't use the item, there are still circumstances where being a focused specialist will hurt you in treasure acquisition.
So basically you are saying the Generalist will have more GP (worth of loot) because when spell trigger items come up for schools in which the FS might have as restricted - the FS will be forced to sell (usually at 1/2 price) while the Generalist can keep the item.
It's a solid point - but just how much do you think that will add up to in an average campaign? I don't think it will make a big difference, though perhaps a moderate one. Certainly not enough to "buy scrolls to make up the difference".
Of course - keeping the wand and using it can help make up the difference too - but then you are not adding versitility at all over an FS. (in fact the opposite). I realize that wasn't necessarily your point - but someone was going to bring it up - so I thought I would be pre-emptive.
** - Note as well that the XP system awards greater XP for an encounter to lower-level party members, so 'losing' XP by creating a few low-cost magic items isn't actually that great a limitation, since you'll make up that XP quickly enough during the one or two encounters per level in which you are effectively 'behind' your party-mates in level.
So your point here is that by spending enough XP on crafting items that you are actually a full level behind the rest of the party is OK because you will earn a little extra XP from encounters due to being an inferior level.
This one I just don't buy. Yes, you will earn a little more XP from encounters for being a lower level - but you are a lower level! That XP will end up going to crafting more items - and although the extra XP might be enough to fund that without creating a larger disparity in levels - a full level is a big loss for a full caster.
While this is true, it's also reductive -- a generalist wizard doesn't need to have prepared a particular spell to have access to it; we've discussed scrolls, wands, and similar items. Other posters mention that generalist wizards can leave spell slots open at the start of the day and prepare a spell in that slot later with an investment of 15 minutes.
This is also true of the FS. The disadvantage of the FS that gets brought up most often isn't the 3rd restricted school - but instead that one of their main spell slots is lost (thus removing versitility). This was the point I was speaking to in the paragraph you quoted - and remains viable even when I agree with your response (which I do).
When I build a wizard these days, I either assume I'll be taking a Reserve Feat or being a Focused Specialist. Either gives the "go all day" oomph of a sorcerer with the versatility of a mage.
The Focused Specialist variant becomes even more appealing once Complete Mage comes into the mix -- when you can use your specialty school to feed feats (such as Cloudy Conjuration) or a prestige class (Master Specialist), you just get more bang for the buck out of each spell cast.
As for conjuartion FS being stronger then generalist...well the fact that this is even coming up proves 2 things. 1) not all school are balanced like they said when they switch to 3.5 and 2) somebody at wizards REALLY has a hard on for the conjuration school.
As for conjuartion FS being stronger then generalist...well the fact that this is even coming up proves 2 things. 1) not all school are balanced like they said when they switch to 3.5 and 2) somebody at wizards REALLY has a hard on for the conjuration school.
If you look at the core books the balance between the different schools of magic isn't that bad. It still favors conjuration and transmutation but it's reasonable. When you start collecting books that the gap between the schools expands and eventually becomes a huge gulf.
In core if you wanted battlefield control you had conjuration, if you wanted direct damage evokation, spying was divination, transmutation was changing things... There were a few spells that broke this rule but primarily that's how it broke down. Add in the splats and now between conjuration and transmutation you can do damned near all of it. While conjuration and transmutation have been becoming increasingly more versatile with new books the other schools have more or less stagnated.
As an example, in core conjuration had a single direct damage spell at 2nd level, add in the splats and suddenly you can turn a focused conjurer into a viable blaster with multiple direct damage spells of varying types in the first 6 levels.
Unless there's been errata - the way it's written you would get your spell slots doubled for one specific level with the exact same restrictions (3 spells in your focused school).
"Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled."
To me it means you only double your "general" spell slots, not including those from high intelligence. Yes, this means that such rings are of little use to Focused Specialists. Deal.
"Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled."
To me it means you only double your "general" spell slots, not including those from high intelligence. Yes, this means that such rings are of little use to Focused Specialists. Deal.
Except the rules disagree with you. Nothing about General spell slots are mentioned - only that you double your spell slots with the exception of bonus slots for high ability scores. Since specialization slots have nothing to do with high ability scores - they don't apply as part of the exception. Deal.
A ring of wizardry I doubles 1st-level spells, a ring of wizardry II doubles 2nd-level spells, a ring of wizardry III doubles 3rd-level spells, and a ring of wizardry IV doubles 4th-level spells. Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.
I was thinking that with the 5th level Wiz sub from Complete Champion, what if you took the Magic domain power? Do you get the ability to use all those banned items back @ 1/2 your level, which means all spell trigger, and pretty insignificant CL checks for spell completion?
Yep. Check out my build using that option HERE.
Except the rules disagree with you. Nothing about General spell slots are mentioned - only that you double your spell slots with the exception of bonus slots for high ability scores. Since specialization slots have nothing to do with high ability scores - they don't apply as part of the exception. Deal.
Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.
That seems clear enough to me, so I'd like to know on what ground you do not agree.
Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.
That seems clear enough to me, so I'd like to know on what ground you do not agree.
I do not agree on the grounds of brain damage apparently. Wow - can't believe I missed that. My apologies.:embarrass :embarrass :embarrass
Clearly ring of wizardry would not be a good item for focused specialist at all since they recieve one less general slot. Stick to pearls of power I guess.
Does a specialist get extra spell slots for 0th level spells? Extras for focused specialist?
Do you think a one level dip into cloistered cleric is worth it for the domains and skill points? magic, trickery, time- all excellent with this build.
What does Versatile Spellcaster do?
It is a feat from races of the dragon - it allows you to use 2 lower level spell slots to cast a spell of one level higher.
Does a specialist get extra spell slots for 0th level spells? Extras for focused specialist?
Yes.
Do you think a one level dip into cloistered cleric is worth it for the domains and skill points? magic, trickery, time- all excellent with this build.
No. If you want clerical domains - take the alternate class ability in Complete Mage at level 5 - and 10 if you like.
Giving up casting levels needs a BIG payoff.
No. If you want clerical domains - take the alternate class ability in Complete Mage at level 5 - and 10 if you like.
Giving up casting levels needs a BIG payoff.
Which alternate class ability? I was looking through CM and couldn't find this.
Which alternate class ability? I was looking through CM and couldn't find this.
Complete Champion, not Complete Mage.
Complete Champion, not Complete Mage.
Yep - my bad.
Yep - my bad.
Whew... thought I was going crazy.
While I'm here, nice guide Treantmonk. I'm quite hooked on the Being god one much to my DMs dismay. I don't have all the splats you mention though but I've been getting by mostly with just core and CM. Need to get CA but it's hard to spend money on a dying product.
Works real good flavor wise with a focused specialist transmutation. Focuse on time related spells as well as the ability to see the future and the past.
Whew... thought I was going crazy.
While I'm here, nice guide Treantmonk. I'm quite hooked on the Being god one much to my DMs dismay. I don't have all the splats you mention though but I've been getting by mostly with just core and CM. Need to get CA but it's hard to spend money on a dying product.
I wouldn't spend money on 3.5 anymore. CM is the best sourcebook (next to spell compendium) for Wizards anyways. Focused Specialist, Reserve Feats, Specialist feats.
I wouldn't spend money on 3.5 anymore. CM is the best sourcebook (next to spell compendium) for Wizards anyways. Focused Specialist, Reserve Feats, Specialist feats.
Well I have yet to buy Spell compendium and I might just never. I figure we are going to go all the way through RHoD before we switch in any case so we're likely to be on 3.5 for some time.
Well I have yet to buy Spell compendium and I might just never. I figure we are going to go all the way through RHoD before we switch in any case so we're likely to be on 3.5 for some time.
You could always buy it cheap on ebay once 4e comes out if you are in a campaign that will run for a long time.
You could always buy it cheap on ebay once 4e comes out if you are in a campaign that will run for a long time.
Do you really think everyone is going to dump all of their 3.5 stuff as soon as 4 gets released? It seems more likely it's going to be gradual like. Maybe in 18 months 3.5 stuff will be dirt cheap.
I have some Amazon reward certs from my CCard burning a hole in my pocket and I can't think of anything better to drop $25 on so I think I'll just get it now.
Something to point out is that generalists get the Elven racial sub level from RotW, bringing their spells/day up to the level of a non-focused specialist.
The way I read it it olny grant an extra spell at your highest spell-level. Thus a 9th level wizard gets an extra 5th level spell, and thats it.
Do you really think everyone is going to dump all of their 3.5 stuff as soon as 4 gets released? It seems more likely it's going to be gradual like. Maybe in 18 months 3.5 stuff will be dirt cheap.
I have some Amazon reward certs from my CCard burning a hole in my pocket and I can't think of anything better to drop $25 on so I think I'll just get it now.
Yes. In fact, we're all going to an orgy while burning our 3.5 books at the same time, chanting "hail, satan" to the beats of a hot new DJ. (Sorry... saw LDOD last night...)
Do you really think everyone is going to dump all of their 3.5 stuff as soon as 4 gets released? It seems more likely it's going to be gradual like. Maybe in 18 months 3.5 stuff will be dirt cheap.
True but the prices will take their first big plunge when 4e comes out. For most people around then will be the best point since there will be a significant pricedrop and the material will still be useful for a long time. In 18 months the number of people using 3.5 material will also have dropped dramatically.
A Gish using the feat Arcane Strike
When you factor this tactic in suddenly being a diviner looks like a lot of fun.
Only trick is which schools to drop, but then thats really just a matter of taste imho.
Focused Specialist works well for a gish with Arcane Strike - if you choose Illusion, it can be pretty flavourful. I have considered playing a focused specialist/shadowcraft mage gish myself. Okay, you've finally gotten past all those shadowy things to the true enemy, then shadows flow into the guy's blade and BAMF!
So yeah wanna hear something funny that maximizes the use of focused specialist?
A Gish using the feat Arcane Strike
When you factor this tactic in suddenly being a diviner looks like a lot of fun.
Only trick is which schools to drop, but then thats really just a matter of taste imho.
Does no one read what came before? :P
True but the prices will take their first big plunge when 4e comes out. For most people around then will be the best point since there will be a significant pricedrop and the material will still be useful for a long time. In 18 months the number of people using 3.5 material will also have dropped dramatically.
Yeah it's quite likely the prices will start to go down, I'm not sure how drastically but who knows. I went ahead and bought the Spell Compendium for $25. It's not that much and since I don't have a lot of other splats I figure it gives my casters a lot more flexibility. Since my group is only just starting RHoD well get plenty of use out of it. Waiting a few months to save $5-10 didn't seem like a good trade.
I keep seeing a t in your name which doesn't belong.
Yes. In fact, we're all going to an orgy while burning our 3.5 books at the same time, chanting "hail, satan" to the beats of a hot new DJ. (Sorry... saw LDOD last night...)
Not sure what LDOD is but I laughed anyhow.
What about something like, um,
Focused Specialist 3/Master Specialist 9/Red Mage 8? That'd net you a +6 CL over builds without CL-ups. Would be just a bit challenging to play, though - losing 4 out of 9 schools --- although you could have up to 7th level spells missing just 3 schools... So, say... Diviner drop Enchantment, Evocation and later on drop... Abjuration, I guess?
Hm. Actually, Evocation is a bad drop, since it has several uncapped spells, and if you can, say, via Wyrm Wizard, snatch yourself Dictum/Blasphemy/Holy Word... but for that you want to REALLY tease your CL anyway, and you might as well drop RM for Archmage+Blood Magus+WildMage, which would get to CL... well, 32-35, but it's not commonplace to pick 5x spell power... T_T
Alternatively, especially for diviners, FS3/MS9 would lead to Unseen Seer 6, for +4CL over , for little to no cost...
You might as well consider being a warmage, beguiler, or dread necromancer if you were thinking for being a FS in evocation, enchantment/illusion, or necromancy, at least you'll benefit more from those rings of wizardry. Since there's no equivilent of a warmage/beguiler/dreadnecro for conjurers and abjurers then go for it.
Not to mention you can also Teleport, cast Black Tentacles, Celerity... And also Master Specialist.
So basically you are saying the Generalist will have more GP (worth of loot) because when spell trigger items come up for schools in which the FS might have as restricted - the FS will be forced to sell (usually at 1/2 price) while the Generalist can keep the item.
It's a solid point - but just how much do you think that will add up to in an average campaign? I don't think it will make a big difference, though perhaps a moderate one. Certainly not enough to "buy scrolls to make up the difference".
I don't necessarily think the generalist will have a lot more loot, but I do think that the original point -- that the generalist has to spend gold to make up for the increased abilities of the Focused Specialist -- is balanced by the fact that the generalist can use more of the items his party will find as treasure.
As to whether or not it will make a big difference in the average campaign -- it depends. If a DM is running pre-generated adventures, designed for a typical four-person party, it will make a lot more difference than if the DM is running a personalized game with treasures often tailored toward the specific characters in her campaign. I'd probably not run a Focused Specialist in the Age of Worms, for example, unless perhaps I wanted to run a Necromancer. (And as others may point out, clerical necromancers tend to do better than arcane necromancers anyway, meaning even this would be a sub-optimal FS.)
Of course - keeping the wand and using it can help make up the difference too - but then you are not adding versitility at all over an FS. (in fact the opposite). I realize that wasn't necessarily your point - but someone was going to bring it up - so I thought I would be pre-emptive.
Agreed, you're not adding versatility, but you are adding utility -- specifically, the utility in being able to cast the same spell (or with staves at higher level, the same set of spells) over and over again during a single encounter or series of encounters, which is precisely one of the advantages noted for a FS over a generalist.
So your point here is that by spending enough XP on crafting items that you are actually a full level behind the rest of the party is OK because you will earn a little extra XP from encounters due to being an inferior level.
Well, it's extremely unlikely you'll have either the gold or the time to craft items to fall an entire level behind the rest of the party -- Let's say the party is just about to hit 7th level (21,000 XP) and you decide to craft items to drop yourself all the way to the start of 6th level (15,000 XP). For each 1000 gold of base price of items you're crafting, it takes half that amount in gold, one day, and 40 XP -- so to actually spend 6000 XP crafting items would require 75,000 gold and 150 days of crafting; even if your party would be willing to spend nearly half a year in 'camp' awaiting your item crafting, thtey'd have to assemble nearly all their character wealth (according to the DMG, a typical 7th level character should have about 19,000gp in 'wealth') to be able to purchase the components.
On the contrary, let's say that just before your party reaches 7th level, you decide to craft a couple of items for your own use -- a headband of intellect, +2 (160 XP), and a wand of magic missile set to caster level 5 (150 XP). This puts you 310 XP behind the rest of the party. Then, as your party's first encounter, your 7th level companions and you run into a pair of CR7 criosphinxes**. Assuming you all survive, your party-mates will gain 1050 XP for this encounter, but you gain 1350 XP, which almost entirely makes up for the 310 XP you spent prior to the adventure. (And if there ever is a situation where that leftover 10 XP allows your party to advance while you don't, you'll actually pass them in XP following the next encounter.)
** - Obviously this works for any CR7 creature, but I'm using a specific example to add credibility.
This one I just don't buy. Yes, you will earn a little more XP from encounters for being a lower level - but you are a lower level! That XP will end up going to crafting more items
This is a good point -- if you're building a crafter-mage, you're going to be consistently behind your party-mates in XP and likely in level. But keep in mind, that's a limitation of being a crafter-mage, not specifically a generalist versus a Focused Specialist. To the degree that it's less useful to take magic item creation feats as you increase the number of prohibited schools you carry, this could be considered a very small point in favor of the FS, in the same sense that not having Martial Weapon Proficiency will generally prevent a rogue from attempting to dual-wield military picks for the x4 crit range, which gives a dual-wielding rogue an edge over a dual-wielding fighter.
The disadvantage of the FS that gets brought up most often isn't the 3rd restricted school - but instead that one of their main spell slots is lost (thus removing versitility). This was the point I was speaking to in the paragraph you quoted - and remains viable even when I agree with your response (which I do).
But as you point out, trying to increase versatility for a Focused Spellcaster is somewhat missing the point -- you'll generally get more benefits by preparing spells of your specialist school than you will by preparing some generic alternative spell, especially if you follow up your initial FS choice with other choices that continue to increase the effectiveness of your chosen school (examples: Spell Focus, Metamagic School Focus, the Master Specialist PrC, etc).
Again, this gets back to the specific point on which we agree -- if you take the FS's strengths and weaknesses into consideration when designing and developing your build, there's no reason you can't be just as effective a spellcaster as a FS as you would have been as a generalist, and have just as much fun.
--
Pauper
I don't necessarily think the generalist will have a lot more loot, but I do think that the original point -- that the generalist has to spend gold to make up for the increased abilities of the Focused Specialist -- is balanced by the fact that the generalist can use more of the items his party will find as treasure.
As to whether or not it will make a big difference in the average campaign -- it depends. If a DM is running pre-generated adventures, designed for a typical four-person party, it will make a lot more difference than if the DM is running a personalized game with treasures often tailored toward the specific characters in her campaign. I'd probably not run a Focused Specialist in the Age of Worms, for example, unless perhaps I wanted to run a Necromancer. (And as others may point out, clerical necromancers tend to do better than arcane necromancers anyway, meaning even this would be a sub-optimal FS.)
I'm currently running 2 FS in different campaigns. One in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and one in Shackled City.
There was a wand of burning hands I remember in shackled city I couldn't use, but that's all I remember coming up.
Actually, in Shackled City, I would suggest my FS (Malconvoker summoner) is the most powerful character I've ever played. Shackled City is the sequel to Age of Worms and our DM has gimped our experience since we were defeating everything to easily (this is the first campaign we've played where the entire party was full casters - so far - so good)
Of course if you go Malconvoker (through wizard) you really need your head checked if you don't go FS, since you will be devoting a reasonable portion of your casting slots to Summon Monster spells which ends up taking care of your specialists slots alone.
If we do play Age of Worms - I would have no hesitation playing a FS again.
Agreed, you're not adding versatility, but you are adding utility -- specifically, the utility in being able to cast the same spell (or with staves at higher level, the same set of spells) over and over again during a single encounter or series of encounters, which is precisely one of the advantages noted for a FS over a generalist.
Not at all. The advantage of a FS over a generalist is the ability to use spells of the same school over and over again over a series of encounters.
If the FS extra spells were restricted to one single spell - this thread would not exist.
Well, it's extremely unlikely you'll have either the gold or the time to craft items to fall an entire level behind the rest of the party...
I agree with your example - however - your wizard is still level 6 instead of level 7 fighting those sphinxes - with very little to show for it as far as items go (about 2,000 gp ahead in loot) and feat slots were given up for that privilege.
However - we are really debating whether Item Crafting feats are worth it (personally - I don't think so) - a completely off topic discussion.
But as you point out, trying to increase versatility for a Focused Spellcaster is somewhat missing the point -- you'll generally get more benefits by preparing spells of your specialist school than you will by preparing some generic alternative spell, especially if you follow up your initial FS choice with other choices that continue to increase the effectiveness of your chosen school (examples: Spell Focus, Metamagic School Focus, the Master Specialist PrC, etc).
Depends on the kind of spell. Personally, I find that spells that offer saving throws (debuffs), have to beat SR, as well as those to which every round of duration is important are best through your specialist school - since as you point out - your feats and PrC levels are spent often boosting that one specific school. Not to mention that some FS will take Spellgifted - which gimps every other school.
However, many spells (Usuallly buffs, utility) these factors aren't in play - they tend to be the spells used from other schools.
For example both my FS are conjuring specialists but always have a Haste spell ready. Other than a round of duration (in one case) which seldom has any gameplay effect - they cast equally as effectively as a generalist.
However, the FS will have more spell slots overall, so that one haste spell slot is no big deal.
Shackled City is the sequel to Age of Worms
Actually, Shackled City came first, followed by Age of Worms and then Savage Tide. Sorry, I'm just fussy :P
You can't drop Divination.
What he said.
"At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.
A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. "
From the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#schoolSpecialization
I have been lurking for years, occasionally posting but rarely so. After re-reading this, I cannot help but contribute. In the words of Tony the Tiger, FS is not good, it's grrrrr-eat:
I play a level 9 FS (Conjuration) with an INT of 22.
He is a Whisper Gnome named See So Far:
FS 6/ Divine Oracle 2/ Loremaster 1
Feats: Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Fiery Burst, Skill Focus Religion, Searing Spell... at level 11 (Loremaster 3) I will take either Versatile Spellcaster or Empower Spell.
Forbidden schools: Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy
I know you are all thinking this is clearly a sub-optimal build, and I agree it is.
That being said, he is great fun, regularly offering to read palms, interpret the liver of a freshly disemboweled cow, or telling you your fortune upon consulting his magic 8 ball... and in or out of combat, he is still better than any sorcerer you can throw out there against him.
I am posting this here because I believe that being a FS has made this character super tough in spite of the build.
Key things to the character: I have abrupt jaunt, the Wiz 5 variant from Complete Champion: "spontaneous divination, and then the key feat of note, "fiery burst."
Out of combat, while not a "face type" he is capable of almost anything else with the spontaneous divinations. On top of that, the Divine Oracle gives access to the Oracle Domain granting some top notch divinations.
I also have a great set of Skills. My big INT allows for me to act as a Bard type for lore/knowledge. Loremaster 2 gives Bardic Lore.
In combat, this guy really shines in spite of taking prestige classes geared for role playing. (Divine Oracle and Loremaster)
My massive daily allotment of spells enables me to buff each morning with 4 spells (Greater Mage Armor, Create Magic Tattoo, Heart of Air, Heart of Water) for 18 hours with my rod of extend spell. After that I still have a huge allotment of spells to fight with.
Defensively, I usually have a very high initiative thanks to a good Dex, improved initiative and Nerveskitter... Additionally, Abrupt Jaunt is absolutely huge, repeatedly saving my little gnome butt. Of course I use the common illusions everybody uses to distract/stay alive: Silent image, Blinding Color Surge (LOVE THIS SPELL), Greater Mirror Image...
Offensively he has loads of spells to buff, move allies, debuff enemies, control the battle, or blast. Orbs, benign transposition, stinking could, regroup, dim door, haste, mass darkvision, solid fog, and the best spell ever: Glitterdust. Don't forget I don't have to memorize any divinations, so I can cast whatever is needed at any given point in time. See invisible, next level True Seeing, and how about alter Fortune on a critical save... like when my buddy took a Beholder Disintegrate Ray in the face and rolled a 1.
We are playing through the Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk module, so I built the guy knowing that I would be dungeon crawling quite a bit. I also built knowing that we would only be playing from levels 8-13.
We are easily averaging 4 encounters a day, and between Fiery Burst and my spells, I have not spelled out. I have been super close several times, but Fiery Burst has been my best friend. Fiery Burst, in a crawl like this module, is the best thing going. I can't believe how good that feat has turned out to be. If you can catch more than 1 bad guy the damage isn't bad, and the DC for save is quite high. FS actually helps with using the feat because I have an extra Orb memorized to feed the Reserve Requirement. SCORE!
My version of the FS is suboptimal, that is true. But I am saying that IMHO, from levels 1-13, my character is better than a sorcerer for sure. I don't know what else to say other than FS makes my un-optimized Wizard better than most sorcerers, so that has to mean something.
Scribe scroll, spontaneous divinations, abrupt jaunt, and most important of all skill points, make this so.
1. What is a Malconvoker?
2. Which book is the Shadow Craft Mage found in?
3. I had planned to go at level 6 into the Geometer class then after 5 levels there move into Initiat eof the Seven Veils. Would it benefit me to have him go Abjuration specialist or Abjuration FS? I had considered conjuration or Illusion to specialize in. Or is it best at this level starting out to just be a generalist?
the Shadow Craft mage Prc is found in the Races of Stone book and is a gnome specific PrC.
where as I would never argue with the dropping of Abjuration, specializeing in it seems to be as far as you want to go. it doesn't really have the hearty spell selection that Conjuration, Transmutation, Illusion, or even Evocation does to make it a really good Focused Specialist choice.
Either way, definitely take that second level of Rogue. Evasion is worth it, imho, especially when it comes with +1 BAB and a crapton of skillpoints like only Rogue can.
Here is my situation, my party wants me to play a rogue and I want to play a wizard. Their reasoning is simply that they need someone to get us past traps. I rarely play rogues though as I prefer wizards. My idea was to go 1 level in rogue to get trapfinding and disarmerment but then take 5 levels in wizard. The idea of specializing in illusion has been appealing and would work well with the rogue duties he carried. How would it work to do 1 level of rogue, 5 levels of FS illusionist?
What about one of the classes from Complete Adventurer (scout, ninja), or beguiler (PHB2)?
I dont yet own the PHBII ( I am only now getting much into the 3rd editions) so I know nothing about the beguiler. But is it worth losing a level of wizard to get a second level of rogue?
Not really. It's not even worth 1. If you really need it, then get 1 or 2 Rogue levels and go into Arcane Trickster or one of the similar PrCs...
If you're taking a level in Beguiler, might as well go into Ultimate Magus. You'll rock.
What are the benefits of Ultimate Magus and would it be good to be a FS going with that? Also would that in turn lead well into Shadow Craft Mage?
I'd rather take Factotum than Beguiler for that.
Not familiar with the factotum, what are it's advantages over beguiler?
Is it better to go whisper gnome beguiler 1/Illusionist 4/ Ultimate Magus 1 and use gnome sub levels in illusion or to go beguiler 2/ FS Conjurer 4 and have Illusion, Enchantment and Evokation banned then use illusion and enchantment from the beguiler list?
With UM, I'm thinking that Beguiler/(Conj, Trans, Evoc) are all strong choices - and I would make sure Illusion and Enchantment are on the banned schools list!
That way you cover all your bases while harnessing the power of specialization.
With UM, I'm thinking that Beguiler/(Conj, Trans, Evoc) are all strong choices - and I would make sure Illusion and Enchantment are on the banned schools list!
That way you cover all your bases while harnessing the power of specialization.
Thats what I'm thinking, go whisper gnome Beguiler 1/Conjurer 3 and UM 2. But should I do FS and lose one more school (evocation, Abjuration) or just be a specialized conjurer?
And I plan to use the Conjurer special ability of abrupt jaunt instead of a familiar.
Personally, I would go FS - give up Illusion, Enchantment, (evocation or necromancy)
depending on your style. (Evocation is largely conjuration-substitutable)
Thats what I'm thinking, go whisper gnome Beguiler 1/Conjurer 3 and UM 2. But should I do FS and lose one more school (evocation, Abjuration) or just be a specialized conjurer?
And I plan to use the Conjurer special ability of abrupt jaunt instead of a familiar.
Go with FS. Evocation, enchantment, and illusion as your banned schools. Conjuration basically lets you get most of the benefits of evocation and your beguiler side gives you all the enchantment and illusion you would need. I've used the build before and it is very very good.
My current build for my next char is:
changeling rogue1/wiz1-4/divine oracle2/wiz5
taking spontaneous divination and abrupt jaunt.
But after this I'm stuck. I'm not sure if I want to go with Recaster or Unseen Seer or a combination of both. Any suggestions?
AndyJames- thanks. I actually do want it for the evasion ability. Not worried about using it to qualify for something, just survival. I liked going this route instead of 2nd rogue level. Only one lost caster level this way.
My current build for my next char is:
changeling rogue1/wiz1-4/divine oracle2/wiz5
taking spontaneous divination and abrupt jaunt.
But after this I'm stuck. I'm not sure if I want to go with Recaster or Unseen Seer or a combination of both. Any suggestions?
Why Rogue? Why not straight Wizard 5/Div Oracle 3? Next level take another level of Div Oracle, and then at 10th, take levels in Sacred Exorcist (if you are Good aligned) for d8 HD, better BAB and still advance your casting.
In that case, take a look at the Beguiler (PHB2). 6 skill points, Trap Finding, spontaneous spellcasting using Int, casting in armour, Illusion/Enchantment specialist.
I tend to agree. If Trapfinding is your main reason for selecting a Rogue level, but want to be primarily a spellcaster, that Beguiler level seem like it would work much better.
*snip* let alone decide that tomorrow you -will- in fact prepare that mage armor after all (having dropped Abjuration, as an example) *snip*
Just thought I'd point out that Mage Armor is NOT Abjuration, it's Conjuration (Creation) [Force] :P
But your point still comes across. Nevertheless, I must say that I have to agree with the OP on this one.
Regarding the "versatility" discussion in the initial post, I find it interesting that you compare Generalist and FS, but not the Specialist, as by your logic, he's more flexible than the both of them.
Level 5, 22 Int: It's true that at each level, the FS gets two more spells, but can't actually prepare spells from a greater number of schools than the Generalist. The Specialist, however, can.
G: gets two lvl3 spells --> max of two schools represented
FS: gets four lvl3 spells --> still max of two schools
Spec: gets three lvl3 spells --> max of three schools represented.
Just a thought, for those who like their speciality, but have a few gems outside of it that they really like having available as well.
This came about, by the way, as I was building a lvl5 FS: Conj, and crying a little inside as I tried to choose between Slow and Unluck for my not-conjuration spell.
First off, fantastic work Treantmonk.
Regarding the "versatility" discussion in the initial post, I find it interesting that you compare Generalist and FS, but not the Specialist, as by your logic, he's more flexible than the both of them.
Level 5, 22 Int: It's true that at each level, the FS gets two more spells, but can't actually prepare spells from a greater number of schools than the Generalist. The Specialist, however, can.
G: gets two lvl3 spells --> max of two schools represented
FS: gets four lvl3 spells --> still max of two schools
Spec: gets three lvl3 spells --> max of three schools represented.
Just a thought, for those who like their speciality, but have a few gems outside of it that they really like having available as well.
This came about, by the way, as I was building a lvl5 FS: Conj, and crying a little inside as I tried to choose between Slow and Unluck for my not-conjuration spell.
Good point!
As for your situation - have you considered picking up the "spontaneous divination" alternate class skill?
Then you can memorize slow - and use another spell slot to cast unluck spontaneously...(or am I missing something? - I type faster than I think)
Good point!
As for your situation - have you considered picking up the "spontaneous divination" alternate class skill?
Then you can memorize slow - and use another spell slot to cast unluck spontaneously...(or am I missing something? - I type faster than I think)
Um, it's been established that I can lose my level 5 bonus feat for spont. div. even if it's a fighter bonus feat, right?
That would in fact be the best solution - as it's a gestalt build, I'm pretty feat-tight, but I'll see if I can't free something up. Thanks!
However, one question that I have is "What about cantrips?".
If I become a Focused Specialist (Conjuration), I have to memorize 3 Acid Splash or leave cantrip slots empty?
Seeing that Acid Splash is the only Conjurer cantrip, and that I give up one general spell / level in order to gain 2 Conjuring spells above the 1 extra Conjuring spell I get from being a Conjurer, do I end up with 1 general cantrip and 3 conjuring cantrips (ie Acid Splash)?
Or do the Focused Specialist limitations on school selection only come into play on level 1-9 spells?
Thanks in advance...
It does seem like a pretty good cantrip, though. Excellent against uber-chargers, it seems ;)
Anyone else who'd venture a guess in the question about Focused Specialists in Conjuration and their Cantrips?
As a FS conjurer, I mem 3 caltrops a day. It's one of the few cantrips that I could consider casting, although I almost always have better things to do than cast caltrops. Still, it'll come in handy someday.
Hmm, ok. Then you do play it like I am suspecting, at least? That the only way to get your full alotment of cantrips is to memorize 3 conjuring cantrips?
I suppose it makes sense, just boring with so few cantrips to select from
Hmm, ok. Then you do play it like I am suspecting, at least? That the only way to get your full alotment of cantrips is to memorize 3 conjuring cantrips?
I suppose it makes sense, just boring with so few cantrips to select from
Yeah, I play it where the FS affects the cantrip spells as well. It ends up not mattering much, since I gave up Evocation. That means I can't cast Light, so it's a split between caltrops and detect magic.
Yeah, I play it where the FS affects the cantrip spells as well. It ends up not mattering much, since I gave up Evocation. That means I can't cast Light, so it's a split between caltrops and detect magic.
I see. Yeah, Detect Magic was the one I figured would be worth ones while to memorize.
Anyway, I will be playing a Rogue/Wizard with a Swashbuckler-flavor, basically adding a few low-level spells to my repertoire as a Swashbuckling Rogue. I'm thinking that Grease, Summon Monster and Mage Armor will give me some fun advantages in battle. I also look to Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) and Focused Specialist(conjuration) and the Practiced Spellcaster Feat to boost my overall combat wierdness.
The Acid Splash cantrip might find good use as a deliverer of Sneak Attack damage sometime, I'm not sure yet.But, anyway, to the OP: Great thread!
I too have always read it that FS affects all spell levels - even level 0.
I don't memorize acid splash at all (really, really sucks), so I use my FS slots all for Caltrops. At low levels its not bad for a level 0 spell. At high levels I never cast 0 level spells anyways (except detect magic).
In the end - cantrips blow. FS probably applies - but it probably won't make a lot of difference either way.
In the end - cantrips blow.
Not true, if you have 5 levels of archmage and the the arcane fire high arcana you can turn a cantrip into a 5d6 ranged touch attack with elemental-free damage ........ who am I kidding, cantrips blow.
now, a FS can do this as well as a generalist, but that this tactic benefits a non-FS more is pretty clear, especially considering that it's also generally a good idea for a wizard to scry his opponents and divine his future well in advance so he knows what spells will be of greatest benefit to staying a leg up on them. Part of playing "god" is not just being omnipotent but also omniscient, and then planning accordingly.
this tactic, which my current group has affectionately dubbed "rope trick, mana dump", also benefits every other character in the party, since they all enter each encounter fully healed, with optimal buffs and a fresh head of spells.
of course, you might occasionally find yourself in a situation where time is in short supply or you can't teleport or use extradimensional magic, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
in short, one of the problems with your argument is that it assumes a wizard is always best served by casting a higher level spell slot every round. I would put it to you that it isn't always the wizard who casts the most spells that wins, but the one which casts the most effective ones for the specific situation he finds himself in.
in short, one of the problems with your argument is that it assumes a wizard is always best served by casting a higher level spell slot every round. I would put it to you that it isn't always the wizard who casts the most spells that wins, but the one which casts the most effective ones for the specific situation he finds himself in.
My problem with your argument is it seems to assume that a Focused Specialist has less spells in his spellbook to choose from. This, in my experience, is not the case. Both a generalist and a FS have no hope of ever getting every spell on their spell list into their spellbook. They have no hope of getting 10% into their library of spellbooks. Mabye 5% in a monty haul campaign.
A Focused Specialist will have just as many spells in his spellbook - with a great range of versatility allowing customization based on encounters just as a generalist will.
They will have spells that target Fort, Will, Reflex. They will have no-save spells. They will have spells that don't allow SR. They will have Battlefield Control spells, Buff spells, Debuff spells, Blasts, Save or dies (actually, my wizard won't have save or die - but that's personal preference). They will have divinations and utility.
As for higher level spells normally being more effective - I find that since a FS is just as likely to have the right "type" of spell for the encounter as a generalist - the higher level spell is normally more effective.
The focused specialist will also have more slots of the lower level spells - which too can come in handy.
To use an example - in my current campaign - our characters plane shifted to a layer of the abyss (this is the current chapter we are playing). We had need to travel fast - but couldn't teleport (as my character had never been there before, and our "guide" was using landmarks to determine where we were going - this is the "Shackled City" adventure path).
We started out using regular mount spells. This turned out to be a bad choice as the random encounter table included a variety of nasties. All could greater teleport in, making things more dicey. We also were pressed for time - so constant rope-tricking was not an option.
Hezrou's using Blasphemy on us was a signficant threat - as a failed saving throw sent you back to the prime material plane. Since a scroll was used to plane shift us in the first place - we could not afford to be targeted by this spell-like-ability.
The right spell for the occassion? Phantom Steeds for the whole party. This used up 6 - 3rd level slots for my 10th level character. As a focused specialist - I had these slots available. As a versatile wizard - I had many spells in my spellbook to find the right one for the occassion. This sped up our travel by about 8x. This cut down random encounters greatly.
This particular character has a staff with Dimensional Anchor. We would dimensional anchor the enemy - and use superior speed to travel around them and avoid the encounter entirely.
Had I been a generalist - I may have also had phantom steed and dimensional anchor (definitely would have had dimensional anchor since it was in a magic item). However, although I may have had the right spell, I would not have had the right number of slots available.
There is often a gut-reaction to Focused Specialist that there are 8 schools, and giving up 3 of them will reduce versatility by 3/8's.
However, that is not the case - as the mechanics are such that the spell schools do not have clearly defined "lines". I am quite capable of layering defences without abjuration spells, I am capable of debuffing a foe without necromancy, I can Fly without transmutation (never give up transmutation - just an example), I can blast without evocation.
Also - not all spell schools are created equal. Evocation is a decent school (despite an undeserved reputation), but it is an easily duplicated school. Almost any affect you can come up with through evocation - I can probably find a spell in another school that will have a similar effect.
Also note that Conjuration and Transmutation are immense schools - making up about 1/2 of the total spells in the game. They are also both incredibly versatile.
See Logicninja's response early on in this thread regarding how a FS wouldn't be able to memorize the spells he wants - and he gave a list of 5th level transmutation spells that a FS wouldn't be able to memorize.
I was able to find conjuration spells with similar effects so that I could effectively duplicate his list - except my wizard had extra slots for other spells left over.
Now - again, I'm not saying generalist is not a viable option - but I do think the drawbacks of FS are often overplayed. In truth, with the sheer quantity of conjuration and transmutation spells in the game - you can build a very versatile spell list even with only those schools represented!
Focused specialists get more slots, but if you only get 4-8 spells of each spell level, you're effectively an INT-based sorcerer. Prepping one slot as web has the same effect as prepping three.
So you are saying this?
Because you have a very limited number of spells in your spellbook, it is better to have less spell slots, rather than more spellslots.
I'd rather have 3 webs instead of 1 actually. I mean, if you only get like 4 spells per spell level, then focused specialist becomes better right? The theory being that you took FS in conjuration or a school that gives a large variety of effects.
Surely you can find more than 1 spell in your entire FS school, right?
Can't you just take Grease, Mages Armor, Hail of Stone at level 1? All conjuration, and 3 very different effects.
For MOST campaigns, focused specialists work well. For spell point campaigns where scrolls are rare and wizards are effectively INT-based sorcerers, focused specialists are typically worse than normal specialists.